#419 April Determines Attitude for NASA

NASA Attitude Determination and Control Officer

April Blackwell has type 1 diabetes and an amazing job piloting the International Space Station.

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DISCLAIMER: This text is the output of AI based transcribing from an audio recording. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors and should not be treated as an authoritative record. Nothing that you read here constitutes advice medical or otherwise. Always consult with a healthcare professional before making changes to a healthcare plan.

Scott Benner 0:08
Hello friends and welcome to Episode 419 of the Juicebox Podcast. Today's show is with an adult type one who always wanted to be an astronaut. And today works at NASA mission control. She flies the International Space Station. Her name is April. And I want to thank the people in the Juicebox Podcast Facebook group, who turned me on to April because I had such an incredible time, I really enjoyed talking about the space program with her. Please remember while you're listening and that nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise, always consult a physician before making any changes to your health care plan, or becoming bold with insulin. Hey, you can check APR out at her blog, nerdy apr.com. And she's also on Instagram at nerdy APR. You guys ready? I'm super excited. I love talking to APR. And I hope you enjoy listening.

This episode of The Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by the Dexcom gs six continuous glucose monitor. You can learn more about dexcom@dexcom.com Ford slash juice box. And to find out about ardens insulin pump the tubeless insulin pump that Arden has been using since she is four, you're gonna want to go to my omnipod.com Ford slash juice box. There you can learn all about the Omni pod tubeless insulin pump, and even request a free no obligation demo. In that cool, they'll send one right to your house.

April Blackwell 2:00
My name is April Blackwell. I've had Type One Diabetes for 22 years. And I've always wanted to be an astronaut. And instead of being an astronaut, at least in this point of time, I get to do my dream job which is to fly the International Space Station from Mission Control.

Scott Benner 2:24
Yes. Okay. All right. We're very excited. We're starting. We're starting out very well. Let me find some things out. 23 years old, how old are you? Are 20 years for diabetes? How old are you now?

Unknown Speaker 2:35
I think I'm 3030.

Scott Benner 2:38
Interesting. You say that? I lose my age every couple of years. Is that what happens to you?

April Blackwell 2:43
Yes, I, I think ever since I hit 30. I'm just like him 30 ish.

Scott Benner 2:49
So a couple of years ago. My wife said that I I said I was gonna be 45 the whole year. And she said she'd never corrected me. But I was going to be 46. And now this year awesome. Oh, yeah. Great. And now this year, I've been running around calling myself 48. And apparently I'm 49. So

April Blackwell 3:14
I don't mean, ages, you know, it's relative. So

Scott Benner 3:17
yeah, but doesn't it feel like something I should be able to remember. I mean,

April Blackwell 3:23
he got lots of other important things to remember.

Scott Benner 3:26
So let's do this together for a second in 2021. I have a calculator. And then I'm just going to subtract the year of his born 1971. So this is going to tell me my wife says that I'm going to be 50 on my birthday. It does it. That's what it said. So apparently, I'm 49 Now we'll do you now 2020 and when you're reborn

Unknown Speaker 3:47
1987 1987

Scott Benner 3:51
your 1033 Hold on, I've done something wrong. 2027. You're 33 years old. All right, and then close, and then we subtract 23 years. And then you've had diabetes for 11 years.

Unknown Speaker 4:09
I was 11.

Scott Benner 4:12
When I got diabetes, I meant to say you were you were 11. So just from what you've heard here, just generally, can I help keep the space station in space?

April Blackwell 4:24
Math is hard in public. So we'll give you a pass.

Scott Benner 4:27
Well, that's way too kind. Okay. I'm 11 years old, this 20 years ago feels like a long time.

April Blackwell 4:36
It does actually, in terms of diabetes. So much has changed since I was diagnosed. And clearly I have changed since then. So it does kind of feel like a long time

Scott Benner 4:48
to be once you get over 20 years that that starts feeling like a lifetime. You know what I mean? Like, wow, that was so long ago that it's hard to put into perspective. For instance, I just heard recently, that this year is like the 25th anniversary of the film goodwill hunting. And when I heard that, I just thought, oh my god, I'm gonna die soon. But that's exactly exactly what I thought when I heard that because I remember seeing that movie in a theater. Like on a date, you know what I mean? And now you're telling me if it's been 25 years, I'm not in great shape. This has got to be the last decade of my life is what I thought, and and why am I measuring that by goodwill hunting? There's no way to know. But you know, so tell me a little bit about like, what diabetes was like when you first were diagnosed?

April Blackwell 5:37
Well, I, I did the mixing insulin game. So I was on regular and NPH. I remember my parents, well, really, my mom mixing up the shots for me. The blood glucose meters took, I think, around 45 seconds, they did come in some cool colors, which I appreciated. But it took a while to get a reading. And, let's see, didn't have any insulin pens, I just use shots pretty much for two years straight. And I remember being very regimented about how much I was eating. And when I was eating it to the point where in junior high, I would have to you know, bring a juice box or something and drink it in between classes as I was going from one class to another because that's 930. That's your 930 snack or whatever.

Unknown Speaker 6:37
So I remember being just very regimented on timing, and how many carbs I was eating. I'm picturing a little April marching down the hallway in a plaid skirt, going time for the juice box, and then just

Scott Benner 6:51
being like, Did you feel like a rebel just eating in the hallway? Or did did it feel like a spotlight?

April Blackwell 6:59
I didn't really like the eating part of it. I remember that being annoying to me that I had to do that. And then it was like a requirement. What I do remember feeling a little bit rebellious about was when I got my first insulin pump, which I think was in ninth grade, maybe eighth grade. And having that which at the time, you know, cell phones were the thing. And I'm dating myself a bit there. But we did that already the beginning. Everyone, everyone thought it was a pager. And we had like these security guards that were at our junior high school and they would drive around on their little golf carts. And I remember pulling it out at one point to do a Bolus or something. And you know, they like zoomed over in their little golf cart and they were like, what are you doing with this paper? Those aren't allowed at school.

Scott Benner 7:52
crocket

April Blackwell 7:54
This is my medical device. I'm a type one diabetic. And this is an insulin pump. I know this is weird because not a lot of people have these but this is my thing. So is it

Scott Benner 8:05
actually where that when you describe that whole scene in my mind that man I am the Miami Vice theme song played and those two zoomed over after you with the cart and and I saw Crockett and Tubbs get out and ask you why you were dealing drugs at the junior high school with your pager?

April Blackwell 8:21
That's absolutely cuz I was you know, I I really liked school and school was important to me. And so getting in trouble. Even having the security guards talk to me, it was like a huge mental breakdown for me, that that could even be construed as something bad. So that's great. Well, and

Scott Benner 8:41
you remember it, which is, is the most telling because I don't remember one thing that happened to me in ninth grade. course we've just learned it's like 20 years longer ago than your ninth grade was but that's not the point. I really don't have any like when you stop and think about your memories, they are the things that impact you like that. It's you never remember the kind of banal stuff you know. So, got a pump look like a page or what kind of insulin goes in that pump then

April Blackwell 9:16
I've been on human log. Since the day I started pumping, which is crazy because just this year, I switched to a different insurance. So literally 20 years I've been on human log in my insulin pump. Just this year, I switched to a different insurance, which didn't cover human log anymore. And it was just one of those moments that kind of catches you and you're like what do you mean you don't cover human log I have just switched to Nova log which I've never used in my entire life and I have no idea how this is gonna affect me. But yeah, so human log for 20 years and no blog for the past few months here.

Scott Benner 9:58
What was the impact when you sweat?

April Blackwell 10:02
Honestly, I think it was more mental than physical. Just because I had always been on human log. And so

you know, I made the switch. And I remember the first week or two being really, really vigilant about my numbers and trying to notice any trends, new trends. And I ended up not really noticing any. So I'm thankful that it was a pretty smooth transition.

Scott Benner 10:28
Yeah, I think I find that most of the modern insulins work pretty similarly, Arden use novolog for a long time. And she uses a Piedra now for a long time. And I've noticed a Peter to be more smooth acting, but that's an Arden. And, you know, that's really the extent of it, I can kind of count on what it does a little more, there isn't as many like flares, where it's like, you know, how novolog once a while, feels like it's working really fast. And then you know, then suddenly, you know, it's gone again, like, you know, gets these peaks and these tails, I don't feel that as much with a pager when I look at the data. But Arden tried fiasco recently, it did work quick more quickly. But if it burned her it, it stung so she had to she couldn't keep using it. So we tried it for a while and had to switch. But your your first reaction was the one that I see him in the public all the time when people are talking about like, Oh my God, my insurance change, I have to switch insulins it's the end of the world and I'm like, it might not be like you should try first and see. And I think most people end up having your experience, honestly.

April Blackwell 11:38
I'm glad for that, because I was really nervous. And my endocrinologist seemed like it was no big deal. So I kind of took her lead. And I was ready, of course with my backup plan, like, okay, you know, if this doesn't work, we're gonna write up this letter, we're gonna send it into the insurance and they're gonna approve this as an addition to the formulary and all this stuff. Which is just kind of what you do. As an engineer, you always have a backup plan, but thankfully didn't need it.

Scott Benner 12:08
You have the letter half written in your head. Dear Sir, or madam. I was just about to receive my retirement watch from humalog. We 20 years is a really long time. That's it's significant. I mean, honestly, I can see being concerned. Okay. All right. So how do we go from little girl who has diabetes? You said school was really important to you? At what point do you say to yourself, I want to go into space? And at what point do you find out if that's possible or not?

I'm doing the ads a little earlier in the show than normal, because I'd like to sort of just get them out of the way so I can keep talking to April. See, I know what's coming. So I know where to put the ads, you understand Dexcom, the continuous glucose monitor that allows you to see your blood sugar in real time, the speed and direction and number. For instance, Arden just had pancakes about 45 minutes ago, and I'm not gonna lie to you. We messed that up. I kind of forgot to Pre-Bolus enough. Okay, fair enough. Well, not long after, here's what I see. Arden's blood sugar is shooting up. And I can see how fast so I watch your blood sugar go from 90 to 100 210 120. And it's flying, right. So when it gets to a certain number, I say to myself move, the insulin I gave her is not going to work. And I gave her more. Now we'll use the same data to make sure she doesn't get low later. So I stopped the spike, leveled it off. And we'll keep it from getting low using the feedback that I get from ardens Dexcom je six continuous glucose monitor. Yes, you can set alarms on it right to tell you when you go above or below a certain number. Those are user definable. You can do whatever you want, which is great for sleeping or activity or just you know, trying to stay in a good range. And of course, you can share your information with other people. Like I can see Arden's Dexcom information right now, on my iPhone, you could too, you could also see it on your Android phone. That stuff's all terrific. And by the way, up to 10 people can follow you. So you could have a kid who's being followed by a mom and dad or grandma school nurse, and you'd still have room for six more people. Or don't let anybody follow you. I don't care. It's your life, do what you want. I'm just saying options. Dexcom is at the core of the decisions we get to make every day while managing insulin. And I'm telling you whether you have type one or type two, this is the way to go. dexcom.com forward slash juicebox. There are also links by the way in the show notes of your podcast player and they Juicebox podcast.com for all the sponsors, sponsors like the Omnipod tubeless insulin pump, did you see what I did there? Omni pod, the tubeless insulin pump, I know you're thinking but I saw an insulin pump one time, it was like this little metal box and had a screen on it. And there was this piece of tubing that went like three or four feet into an infusion set. And it seemed like a lot of want to wear all that. Yeah, Omnipod doesn't have any of that on the pod is self contained. And the controller that you use to tell your tell it, you know, like, give me some insulin, wireless, right wireless can put it in your purse in your pocket, you can leave it on the countertop, you don't need to have it with you all the time. The pod has everything in it, you need your insolence with you all the time. And they'll send you a free, no obligation demo of the on the pods you can try it on and where to see what it feels like. And that is invaluable. It absolutely is my omnipod.com forward slash juicebox. Get that demo sent to you right now. It's no obligation. So get it and don't like it whatever, doesn't matter. Get it and don't have to have to put it on right away. It's fine. But get it Give yourself a chance to see what you're missing. My omnipod.com forward slash juice box dexcom.com forward slash juice box I'm in a good mood nerdy april.com. Don't forget the T one D exchange at T one d exchange.org. forward slash juice box. Actually, if you're listening to this on the first week, it's out. You can watch my blood sugar live right now at Juicebox podcast.com forward slash CGM live.

April Blackwell 16:48
I started being interested in space since about kindergarten. So I guess you could say I just started school off with the idea that I was going to be an astronaut. And so that that always drove my decisions. And what I was interested in what books I checked out in the library, what summer school programs I signed up for begged my mom to sign me up for. And then diabetes happened in sixth grade. So I was already like six years, you know, into into this career choice.

Unknown Speaker 17:22
I guess

Unknown Speaker 17:24
your commitment was six years old already? Yeah. So

April Blackwell 17:27
you know, I had to, I had to really investigate whether diabetes was going to be an issue. And it turned out it was still is to this day. And it kind of led to some soul searching, they're in sixth grade, junior high, you know, was there something else I was interested in, that I can sort of pivot to instead of being heartbroken about not being an astronaut. So after that soul searching was done, I decided that there wasn't anything else I was more interested in. I thought space was just awesome. rockets were so cool. It was so cool that we could launch people into space on rockets, they could live there in low Earth orbit, they could do science experiments, and all sorts of really awesome stuff. And I just wanted to be a part of that. It's just something bigger than yourself. That's really neat that we can collaborate and come together and be able to do such awesome things in space. And so that just kind of continued on, I ended up getting an aerospace engineering degree, starting my first job out of college, which actually didn't have that much to do with space. But I learned a lot at the job. I got to fly on experimental helicopters for the army and boss test pilots around so that was kind of cool. And then eventually ended up in my dream job here at NASA.

Scott Benner 19:04
Okay, so you don't have to be a pilot to be an astronaut.

April Blackwell 19:09
Absolutely not know that. That used to be a deal. Back in the day, the the original mercury seven and you know, a lot of the Apollo astronauts were test pilots, or had a lot of jet time, but definitely not a requirement anymore. In fact, on the space station right now, we have a breath of different people from all sorts of backgrounds. We even have someone who's a biologist, we do have two pilots, but we also have a medical doctor. So it's really interesting to see all the different careers that are part of the astronaut corps now.

Scott Benner 19:50
Well, so there's only there's two pilots up there now so when they come back, if I don't, I'm gonna make up like some crazy scenario but Like space monsters eat the pilots. It can they get back? Okay, like, Can someone else do that part? Or is it mostly automated? Like I'm interested in about how, how the capsules work in Riyadh. Yeah, yeah, so

April Blackwell 20:14
mostly automated. That's kind of the great thing about how we operate. Now, if you think back in, like the Apollo era, if you've seen Apollo 13, or any of those old sort of space movies, if the astronauts are like flipping a lot of

Scott Benner 20:34
April, you, you're gone.

Unknown Speaker 20:35
But stuff,

Scott Benner 20:36
sorry, Tapsell before you disappear for a second. I'm sorry. You said they were flipping a lot of I'm assuming you're gonna say switches. Yes, yeah. Okay.

April Blackwell 20:44
So they used to flip a lot of switches, you know, they had a whole procedures for how they were going to input all of their re entry parameters and landing parameters. And the nice thing is, we have we don't have to operate that way anymore. So the reentry landing, all of that is pretty automated. And even on the space station, you know, we really try to have the astronauts focus on doing the science because that is what the International Space Station is, it is a an orbiting laboratory. So we really want them to focus on science. And we take care of most of the systems onboard the International Space Station from the ground in Mission Control.

Scott Benner 21:27
That is really cool. April, and I spoke a little before we did the recording, which I never do. April with anybody I talked to, I never talked to anybody first. I love it all happened here. And now I know why because as soon as I got on the phone with April, it was like, I started telling her all my stories. And I was like a little too excited about what she does for a living. Because I grew up right through the, like the shuttle error. And it was a big deal. You know what I mean? Like if it was like the Super Bowl when the space shuttle went up, and people stopped what they were doing. And you know, I know, this is probably strange for younger people to hear, but they would roll televisions into our classrooms on these big carts and have rabbit ears, they were trying to get the signal in or they'd move us into the auditorium. And then put like multiple televisions in front of us. And when I say this to people, you should understand I'm talking about like a 30 inch square TV that you really couldn't see if you were more than like nine feet away from it. But we would all just stare, you know. And it was it was just stunning that that thing would go up and the cargo bay doors would open and arms to come out of it. And I was like, Oh my god, this is like, felt like it was from a cartoon, you know. And and I never knew he never knew what they were doing as a young person. Like they would say they're doing experiments, you're like, Alright, and then you get older, you're like, you know, Velcro, you're like, yeah, space. I'm like, Wait, what? You know, you're like, Well, that's it. Maybe we shouldn't be doing this, just Velcro. But then you realize that what more and more and more comes out of it. And, and the idea of trying to stay there longer and longer to see if one day we can't push humanity off of this planet to somewhere else. That's all really incredibly just exciting. How does it feel to work on something that the culmination of your work may not even happen in your work lifetime? Does that feel weird? Or no? Where do you think of yourself more as day to day operational stuff.

April Blackwell 23:33
It's sometimes feels weird. I just think that, you know, being in the space industry and being interested in it now for a few decades, you realize that these things just take time. And so it's very likely that there's going to be things you work on that you won't ever get to see come to fruition. But the interim and the middle, the journey is so awesome and cool. You know, right now we're operating ISS, which if you're 20 years old or younger, there has always been a person or people in space. So we haven't all been together all the humans alive have never been together on planet earth for the last 20 years, which just kind of blows my mind because a 20 year old person could be working as an intern at NASA Now. So I think that's, you know, just a really neat facet of this kind of work and being able to sort of disconnect yourself from the day to day and step back and see things from a bigger picture. I think there's many industries in many areas of life and politics and everything where we wish people could do that. And so having that perspective is really neat. I've even compared it to you know, the diabetes industry and how, you know, there's been some pushback lately about funding sort of long term diabetes research, and that all the type ones that are alive now may never actually see that come to fruition. But if you think about all the research that's being done towards that end, and similarly, all the research on ISS that's being done, it's helping so many tertiary things in the interim, you know, on ISS, we're doing lots of science, and that's helping countries create more clean drinking water, or it's helping us develop these telemedicine visits. Because guess what, we have to do telemedicine for the astronauts that are on ISS. So all of these sort of interim things that we're learning are definitely helping our quality of life now. And same thing with these long term diabetes research programs, you know, the the benefits, we may not ever get to that end goal benefit of a cure. But in the interim, we're getting pumps and CGM and closed loop systems and better insulins. And I think there's a lot of good that can come even in the journey.

Scott Benner 26:09
Yeah, it's hard, I imagine, for a lot of people to think, you know, I'm in this room, and it needs to be painted. But it's gonna take 100 years to paint the room yet, if I don't pick this brush up and start, we'll never reach the end. You know, like, it's, it's, you have to have that kind of explorer like mentality, like, I'm gonna get in a wagon and go west, I'm gonna get in a ship and sail away, that kind of stuff is, is not pay you back right now kind of things, but they're the entire reason why you have long term success. And you know, it's funny when you said you were you compare it a lot to diabetes, you sort of talked about research, I was thinking, personally, you know, you you need to Pre-Bolus lunch today. So you don't have a spike two hours from now, you know, or an hour from now. And if you don't have that spike after this lunch, then 40 years from now, you might have a great health outcome that you wouldn't have had otherwise. And it's it's, it can be difficult to see how the work done in the moment, affects the larger picture. And I just thought, you know, when I asked you the question, I thought, like, I think that all right, April, already, when I was a little kid, I used to think if I could make a deal with somebody, I'd give away the last 10 years of my life, if I could come back for a year, every 10 years, just to see how things have changed. And more recently, as an older person, I realized I should have said, You know, I realized, in case this happens, you know that I could I should give away the last 10 years of my life to come back once for a year every 100 years. And then that's almost one of the sadder things about being alive to me is that I don't get to see where it goes. And, and that's why I asked you that because I have a feeling that one day, we are going to figure out how to put people on other floating rocks. And you know, you're going to have been a really big part of that. And you won't get to see it. But so goes it, I guess for all of us. Tell me a little bit about what you take in college that prepped you for this and what were your interest? Oh, wait, before I asked that question. I have to say this, an 11 year old being introspective about changing their job choice that they made when they were in kindergarten and having such a calm, calm. Are you like the most mature person on the planet?

April Blackwell 28:38
If you ask my mom that she probably would say yes. She's still jokes to this day that it was so funny to her that she would wake up on Saturday mornings, and I would be awake watching TV. But I wouldn't be watching cartoons I would be watching the news, because I was interested to see if there's any space stuff going on. And back in those days, actually, if you remember, there weren't websites and stuff. So if you, you know, saw a product on TV that you thought would benefit your life, you had to actually call a phone number. So I remember writing down you know, here I am age seven or eight. I'm like writing down these phone numbers. And then I would tell my mom when she woke up you know, I think this weighted blanket or whatever would be really great for you. Here's the number you can call or

Scott Benner 29:30
APR does this put you in the dork or geek category? Just quickly? Do you know?

April Blackwell 29:35
I don't know. See I am nerdy APR. So I like to think of myself as a nerd. I don't get offended if you want to call me something else.

Scott Benner 29:43
The long breakdown of this on an episode that hasn't come out yet, by the way, with a couple. So. So you were so literally you'd be like Hey, Mom, listen, you call this 800 number. I'm telling you right now we're getting rid of that planet. You've got

April Blackwell 30:01
exactly like, here's the life insurance, I think you'd probably benefit from some life insurance or Yeah, all that kind of stuff. But all that to say I, I do remember life before diabetes, I was 11. So I know not everyone has that ability, that perspective. And I remember, you know, getting diabetes at 11 just made me instantly grow up. Because for better or worse, my parents were the type that, you know, if I wanted to spend the night at a friend's house, I needed to be able to take care of myself on my own. So that meant I needed to be able to check my blood sugar, react to that blood sugar, you know, get my shot, ready, deliver my shot. And I wanted to be normal. I wanted to be with my friends. So that really encouraged me to like, get over those humps really fast.

Scott Benner 30:58
Yeah. Do you think that it's more reasonable to expect that 20 years ago than today, because I'm, obviously I'm not minimizing your care as a child, but you really weren't mixing a couple of things together, jamming a needle pushing and then just making sure to eat at a certain time, right? Like That was the expectation. Am I right? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Right. And now you know, how to manage with more modern insulin. Do you think it's, do you think, an 11 year old you in today's world? Do you think it would have been apples to apples?

April Blackwell 31:31
Definitely not. I mean, just so much has changed. And I can't really predict, you know, what an 11 year old today would would be able to do. And I think it's very child dependent. I have two children on my own now. And I can see that just everything is very child dependent. So the neat thing is, we have a lot more tools as parents now, you know, God forbid, one of my kids got diabetes, you know, now we have all of these share apps and ability to really track trends and notice trends better and, you know, dial those in. So there's some tools that while make, they make the management tighter, they are pretty complicated. And being able to interpret all that data, you know, maybe would take a parent to actually understand that make, make decisions. When you

Scott Benner 32:27
were explaining I thought, imagine if podcasts existed 20 years ago, when I had the idea to have a diabetes podcast, it would be one episode long, I'd be like, so you take this, put it in that mix it up, inject it, and then make sure you eat it noon. Thanks for listening. Yeah. You're back in your I also wondered if your parents wanted you to be very, you know, in control and mature or if they were just swingers, and they needed you out of the house. Like I wasn't, which we you can't be here Saturday, you have to go on an overnight visit. We need you to learn how to do.

April Blackwell 32:58
I don't know, you'll have to ask them

Scott Benner 33:00
for having a tea party. Honey, you gotta go. It's a very 70s thing to say. I don't know if it would have worked as well. Nice. Okay, so you are the most mature child on the planet? we've, we've, I've never had, I'm still not sure if I've had the kind of conversation with myself that you described it as you were, like, 11 years old. But so you? Do you start paying attention in school To that end, like I'm gonna be? Because you're an engineer now. Is that right? Correct. Right, yeah.

April Blackwell 33:32
And I would say 100% it, having that end goal of, you know, being an engineer, I still haven't given up on the goal of being an astronaut. So that's still out there. It just drives all of your decisions when you're that passionate about it. You know, it makes you want to take the advanced math classes, or choose Russian for your foreign language instead of Spanish or something. I'm doing extracurriculars that, you know, you've seen in astronaut biographies, already, you know, being marching band drum major, or writing for the school newspaper, you know, having internships and seeking those out, getting scholarships, all that stuff. So it just really drives your decisions, which is maybe not a bad thing. It's just it was a little bit earlier than some of my friends maybe?

Scott Benner 34:24
Well, you know, I think that as you're talking about this, what I'm realizing, you know, it's being reaffirmed for me, is that there are some things on the planet we need people like you for, you know, it's like, it's easy to sit back and go like, oh, they're messing up this, you know, thing or, you know, they whoever they is, they mess this up. They mess that up. You got April here who's been laser focused on space since she was five. And that's how, that's how when you flip the television on, you see a rocket take off and it goes into, you know, it was up in a space and it actually works. That's how that ends up happening because I'm assuming there are 1000s of people in the organization. who all have this kind of focus? And that's not focused. Everyone has like, your job's not like a job, you don't flip the newspaper open and go like, Hi, I need some work. Oh, yeah, NASA, I'll call that one. You know, like, this is a, it's a calling. And. And it's, it's really cool to know that people like you are doing stuff like this, what are the real odds of you getting into space? Because I'm imagining a podcast live from orbit? Is that possible?

April Blackwell 35:31
Right now, it's not possible, but I'm pretty hopeful about some of the commercial companies. So, you know, NASA does just sort of the bigger missions, right? They, they spend literally months in low Earth orbit, you know, we're talking about going back to the moon, we're going to deep space, we're thinking about Mars, of course. So those are all missions that are, you know, require humans in peak physical condition, peak mental condition. And the interesting thing about how the landscape is changing, you know, there's these commercial companies coming online, and they're gonna want people's money. And the people that have money may not be perfect human specimens. So I think that opens up the door for people like me who have a chronic illness, to maybe get our moment in space. And it may not be a six month mission, but I'm hopeful that we'll at least get to see, you know, the curvature of the earth and be able to float around for a few minutes.

Scott Benner 36:41
Okay, so you're thinking that you may be able to go as a passenger? on a on a commercial flight. Right, right. Not that you get to work the camera, like, Why could you not work? The commercial flight? I can't quit? Like, why couldn't you be the cruise director of the thing that gave me like, Hi, if everyone looks out this window over here, you're gonna see whatever, like, I understand, okay, so in less somebody reaches inside of you and squishes that pancreas around and magically makes it work again, you don't you don't see that as like a job in space, but you still want to make it there? That's, that's my understanding. Am I right?

Unknown Speaker 37:19
Yeah,

April Blackwell 37:20
I think kind of breaking down barriers and, and breaking the ceilings, if you will, is an important part of sort of my life mantra, and kind of what I did already with my first job, being a flight test engineer, and, you know, getting through several different programs that the army has that aren't typically, you know, for type one diabetics, because surprise, right now, the military doesn't let in type one diabetics, unless you're diagnosed while you're already in the military. And so it was it kind of provided a unique opportunity to forge that path. And then, you know, recently the FAA has come out with some new rulings about what type of medical clearances they're going to grant to type ones. And so all these different jobs that previously restricted type ones are sort of looking at the data, again, with fresh eyes and with the fresh diabetes management techniques that we have, and reevaluating whether those rules still make sense. And I think space is just, you know, it's the next frontier for type one diabetics.

Scott Benner 38:28
No kidding. That's very cool. Okay, so yeah, I had I, I feel like I had the guy on who got the first license after the FAA changed the rules. Is it weird that I've done so many podcasts that I'm not 100% sure, if that was

April Blackwell 38:46
just a lucky guy, you get to talk to really cool people.

Scott Benner 38:48
I really, I really, his conversation with him was, was terrific. And I'm not gonna take up our time with me trying to figure out what episode number two was. But just now, I thought to myself, I had the first guy Oh, no. And then I was like, did he? Let's see the first I think he was like, I can't say it if I'm not sure. Anyway. Now, I've just kind of pseudo said it. So where do you go to college and what do you major in?

April Blackwell 39:13
I went to Arizona State University. I grew up in Arizona. And luckily, they had a scholarship program for people in the top of each graduating class. So that turned out to work out for me. Which meant that college was free. So that was really great. You know, graduating with no student debt is a pretty big accomplishment in my book. And then I moved across the country to Alabama of all places to work for the army doing flight test engineering. And while I was at that job, I got my master's degree from Embry riddle Aeronautical University in Florida. aeronautical science, masters of aeronautical science. That's cool. That's where the headquarters are. Yes, I did most of the classes online, just because I was remote in Alabama. But yes, the headquarters are in Florida.

Scott Benner 40:10
Cool. Hey, watch the wire on your headphones. Okay. Okay. Yeah. So, but yeah, I mean, plus you have to learn how to do things remotely anyway. So you please. I mean, your Isn't it funny, everyone's complaining about being remote your whole jobs remote?

April Blackwell 40:23
Exactly. Yeah, I was joking with someone about that. I mean, we have to, it's, it's literally exactly like everyone's experiencing with the pandemic, you know, trying to figure out how to fix your car or something in your house remotely by watching a YouTube video or, you know, calling your friend who's a mechanic. That's exactly what we do. Every single day on the International Space Station, you know, they have a toilet that's broken up there, someone on the ground is telling them how to fix it, you know, so it's interesting. That's really something.

Scott Benner 40:55
So, what do you write? What is your hold on? See, I have too many questions. What was your first job? At NASA? How do you get a job at NASA?

April Blackwell 41:08
Well, good question. There's lots of different avenues you can go about it. I ended up just applying through USA Jobs. They use, you know, the government jobs website, since they're a government agency. And that led to a few phone interviews, and then eventually flying out here to Houston. And part of the interview process was interesting, because a big part of my job is communication. You know, we practice communication every single day, in the flight control room, and how we communicate problems or failures, anomalies, plans to people up the chain, like flight directors as well. And so part of the interview process was actually giving a presentation about something I had worked on previously, a lot of people do college presentations. Since I had a job before I ended up doing a presentation from my previous job. But it was really fun actually, to sort of share that with them. And then of course, you know, talk to several managers, and even got a tour around Mission Control. So honestly, it was more fun for me probably then the people thinking about hiring me.

Scott Benner 42:26
What, what first, what first work did you do for them.

April Blackwell 42:32
Um, I've always worked this job. So interestingly, it, it is like a second master's degree, it does take about two years from the time you're hired to when you're actually certified to sit in Mission Control. And during that time, you are taking classes, and doing checkouts we call them so they're like oral examinations. And you also practice your skills in simulations. So they throw tons of malfunctions at you and see if you can prioritize and use your time management skills and your communication, teamwork, all that. And then you eventually have a final simulation where you know that most of the problems on ISS are going to happen in your system. And you have to pass that before you can sit solo in Mission Control,

Scott Benner 43:23
do people get hired? So because what you're describing is you're getting hired. And really, you're, you're not going to work, you're going about learning to do the job for your first two years, or just like you said, school, it's like NASA school, are there people who don't make it through and ever get to actually do the work?

April Blackwell 43:44
Unfortunately, yes, we get hired in what's called classes. So I was hired with two other guys. And most classes for our group are three or four people that you sort of go through all your your learning with. And since I've been here at NASA, which is now seven and a half years, there's only been one class where everyone has made it to be certified. So there's actually a pretty decent washout rate for various reasons.

Scott Benner 44:19
So you can work two years trying to learn this thing. And at the end, just be like, I don't get this and then that's when they're like yeah, goodbye, we noticed. Yeah, I

April Blackwell 44:28
mean, you are sitting solo in Mission Control, flying a $50 billion space station with six or seven humans on board. So you do need to know what you're doing. And you need to be able to not only know the technical, but be able to communicate it and work with your team. So there's a lot of different aspects to the job besides just technical orbital mechanics or whatever

Scott Benner 44:50
and the prioritizing you talked about. So if two if two things pop up at once as problems. You You really need to be able in an incident to say it's pertinent Do this one before that one. And and so we'll address this, then we'll address that because this is more. I don't know, vital to what's happening, I guess. And the most vital thing is, well, I'm gonna, I'm just gonna read first of all, what's your title? Do most people wait 40 minutes to ask you what your title is?

April Blackwell 45:19
They don't, that's okay. It's kind of, I don't know, maybe not very descriptive. So our console name is attitude determination and control officer.

Scott Benner 45:30
And when you email that to me, I assumed it was a typo. Did you do many people have that issue?

April Blackwell 45:38
I think it's just, if you're not involved with space, it may seem a little bit strange or foreign.

Scott Benner 45:43
Okay, cuz it's attitude. I thought she means attitude. How could she have gotten that wrong? It's your job. But anyway, then I texted back and you're like, no, no attitude doesn't go. Okay. So say one more time.

April Blackwell 45:54
Attitude determination and control officer.

Scott Benner 45:56
What does that mean?

April Blackwell 45:59
So basically, you may have heard in like old, old space movies and stuff, the GNC, so guidance, navigation and control, which is a part of what we do. But basically, if you think about it, like flying an airplane, when you're flying on an airplane, you want your pilot to sort of keep you straight and level, you don't want to be doing barrel rolls, or you know, going the wrong direction. So, with the help of Isaac Newton, who's normally driving the spacecraft pretty well. We just make sure that the ISS is going straight and level, it's pointed where it needs to point. And it's configured, how it needs to be configured. And we use sensors. So GPS, just like you have in your phone, we use GPS to know where we are, and which way we're pointed. And we use some other sensors to help us with that as well. And we make sure that we're all configured for whatever activity we're doing. So you know, you may have to move the space station out of the way have some orbital debris, I actually just got an email about that this morning, that that may happen tonight. Or if something is docking, you may need to move the space station to very specific attitudes. So like its orientation, in order for the vehicle that's coming to dock correctly. So there's lots of different little pieces to it. Okay,

Scott Benner 47:21
I find this very exciting. So you could sit in Houston, and be like, type, type, type, type type, and then watch the space station move.

Unknown Speaker 47:30
Yes.

Scott Benner 47:32
Hold on. That's so cool. All right. I don't know why. I don't know why I found that surprising. But it just made me like flush. This is I I this is how I felt when I found a playboy in the woods when I was 11. It's very exciting. Okay. That's amazing. And is it just you at a time? Or is there a group of people?

April Blackwell 47:54
There's a group of us that are certified. So there's probably 25 of us that can sit console. Normally, it's just one of us sitting there at a time, we have shifts, and we support 24 seven. So sometimes I work in the middle of the night. If we have an activity that we know about, for instance, a spacewalk or a docking, we usually have a second person in a backroom. So they kind of help us just like double check all the commands that we send and make sure we're doing everything correct.

Scott Benner 48:25
That's very, that's very, so there's redundancy in those moments. Exactly.

Unknown Speaker 48:29
And it's not

Scott Benner 48:30
just they're not just sitting back there smoking cigarettes and drinking Dr. Pepper. They're actually helping you the person who's out front.

April Blackwell 48:37
Yes, usually not smoking, but you know, the building is from the 60s, so it does kind of smell like cigarettes.

Scott Benner 48:43
Listen, every space movie, all of the white men who controlled Mission Control are smoking cigarettes. That's just what I seen. There's always, you know, there's always 9000 white guys, they all have crew cuts in these films. They're smoking cigarettes very viciously. Is it? Is it stressful? Like does does work? Make your blood sugar try to go up?

April Blackwell 49:04
That's an interesting question. I actually when I'm on console, my response to adrenaline is I go low. And so I try to keep my blood sugar a little bit higher, I run it just a little higher than I would off console. So I've console I'm kind of targeting around 100 and on console, I usually run more like 131 40 which just gives me a little runway if something were to happen to sort of catch myself before I started going low. Wow. So

Scott Benner 49:35
you get when you get an adrenaline surge your blood sugar drops pretty significantly. Yeah. Wow. always been like that.

April Blackwell 49:43
Um, I guess I've you know, I've really tuned into it while I've had this job. So it's likely that it's always been there, but I've just never noticed it quite as as you know, in real time, like I do now. Kidding.

Scott Benner 49:57
That's interesting. He has you work in shifts. I I'm jumping around, but this is how my brain works. Because you work in shifts, do you see feet on the floor like dawn phenomenon stuff, if you wake up at 11 o'clock at night to go to work.

Unknown Speaker 50:13
I'm

April Blackwell 50:14
not consistently, I definitely see interesting trends spikes. If I work the night shift, and the interesting thing is, I normally wake up, you know, I went to work, the night shift, I'll work our shift is 11:30pm to 8:30am. And then I'll come home and I usually try to like go to bed immediately because my kids are at daycare so I can sleep while they're not. And it's interesting, because I'll usually wake up around right at noon, or 1pm, and be hungry, and my blood sugar is going low. So it's like it's expecting me to eat lunch, and I'm just not hungry right then because I've been working all night. So it's way better now that I have control IQ on board. So that that helps so much with shift work and just weird schedules in general. So I'm thankful for that.

Scott Benner 51:15
If that makes sense. Arjun uses loop and it it it's amazing to watch it take away basil and try to fight off flows, you know, significantly in the future. Yeah, very, very cool. Yeah, I can imagine that would be something you would have been interested in, I assumed you had something like that. Just based on your job. Okay. Now, let's everybody slow down for a second. And by that, I mean me, cuz I'm still a little jittery, like a little like, you're like, one of the more famous people I've talked to, in my mind. So just, it's just, I guess I just I grew up in the right space, right, like my parents remembered, you know, you know, moonshot, and Kennedy and all that stuff. And they spoke about it with a lot of reverence. You know, people live growing up living in the 70s, who actually saw, you know, as a child, you know, solace, you know, put man on the moon, it was it was, it was really spoken about, just right up there, like the world doesn't work this way anymore. But you know, when you hear like the Super Bowl has, you know, the most people ever, always on television, watching television, it's usually the Super Bowl, the Super Bowl, it's because things like that were special. And now there's so much availability to everything that nothing feels as special. I don't know if that makes sense to you. But that's how it feels, to me that nothing is special, because there are so many options of things to do see, or partake in it. So my parents saw it is amazing that, you know, we put somebody on the moon. And then as a child, you know, the Space Shuttle Program was just stunning to watch. And then, of course, there was the tragedy with the one shuttle. And that felt like, I don't know how to say like that, that, that there was a morning that that covered the entire country when that happened. And I don't know if if that, if that would impact people the same way in modern day times? Because I mean, because does anybody I mean, how many people listening to this are like, Wow, there are people in a space station right now. I had no idea. You know, like, I think that that's, that's true. And I'm still one of those people. And I told you when we spoke earlier, the reason April got to be on the show is because one of you asked for her to be on the show. And I was struggling with it in my mind, because I don't have people on the program who've been on other podcasts. And you had recently been on a podcast or somebody said, Hey, please get this person on the show meaning you. So I do a little diligence. And I find out you were just on a podcast. And it's like, ah, I don't do that. And so I sort of let go of it. I was like, well, maybe I'll like reach out to her next year or something like that. And then I was awoken in the middle of the night, had to get up for something, got this little alert on my phone that said, I could go sit down right now and watch a docking at the space station, and watch people like get there for the first time. And so there I am at like 130 in the morning in my underwear, watching this. And then I was just like, this is a sign April should be on the show. And so I reached out to you and you were like so nice to want to do this. But I want you to know that like, I sat here for like 45 minutes, just watching astronauts unbuckle their seat belts, to get ready to get out of this capsule and go into the space station. And to say that by today's entertainment standards, nothing was happening would be an understatement. Like nothing was happening. You know, they were just sitting there. But there's still that person inside of me who grew up through all this. Who was just like, Oh my God, we just took four people stuck a minute Tin Can and shot them up into space. They stuck to another tin can and they're about to get into it. And that all to me is still fascinating. You know, really just, I think it's, it's overwhelming. Like, I'm stunned that the structure and how they generally mean like the big. Couldn't you just like crush one of those things in your hands, but they're up in space? Like what happens if a rock hits it? I have a lot of questions. You're not getting out of here anytime soon. So So first of all, do you feel the way I feel? Or do you feel like a million times more than that about this?

April Blackwell 55:37
Well, I'm not inside your skin. So I can't say I know exactly how you feel. But I am just, I'm pretty pumped about everything space, I was fortunate enough to see two space shuttle launches, one really close only about three miles away. And I just remember bawling my eyes out because it was the most patriotic, inspiring, just all consuming thing that I've ever witnessed. And I wish that everyone could feel that about something. You know, I think, like you're saying, there's so many things to be interested in now and so much information coming at us all the time. You know, I feel like there's not that many people that have a true passion about something. And I mean, that's just something that's so important to me, you know, and drives so many things in my life. And I wish that for everybody I wish, you know, there was a passion that everyone had.

Scott Benner 56:35
Yeah, do you think the goal is to get us off of this rock? Is that what space exploration is about, like long term

April Blackwell 56:45
that is maybe a really, really long term goal. And, you know, everyone kind of has a different goals. So the goals and missions that NASA has are different than, say Elon Musk, who's made it pretty clear that his goal is to land on Mars and, and figure out a way for us to cultivate on other planets. But what I think is so interesting is, you know, exploring with humans is still just so inspiring, you know, we have probes that are literally outside of our solar system. Now. I mean, Voyager is in deep space. And hardly anyone knows about it. You know, it's like a forgotten thing. Like, we're still getting data from Voyager that was launched 50 years ago, and is now past Pluto in deep space. But there's something really special about humans and having a human perspective on missions. And so I don't know where I was going with this. But I think it's really important to, to continue exploration with humans. And while that may not be to deep space anytime soon, I think there's really, really concrete and tangible benefits that we can feel on Earth from these missions right now.

Scott Benner 58:02
So yeah, What is today's Velcro?

April Blackwell 58:07
Oh, man, there's so many things. There's actually a lot of medical science that's been going on to help people with different conditions, different ways that we're creating medicines in space, we're researching different things. Actually, there was a SpaceX launch, just this past weekend, and the docking was yesterday. And onboard are some rats for some experiments that are going to be happening with rats. So we do those. Of course, all of the remote operations that we do on a daily basis actually help. You know, lots of people in real time now and you know, have better interactions with people remotely. Like I said, clean drinking water. We're learning so much about communications, like communication satellites, how we can deliver internet to people in really remote parts of the world. You know, different food techniques for growing food in weightlessness, and applying those to how we grow food on the earth. There's just so many different things. And NASA puts out actually a really great article every year, that's, you know, like, here's all the benefits to humanity from ISS from this year. And you can like Google that or something, but they put that out every year, which is really interesting to read about some of the really cool things. You know, there's lasers and all sorts of space age stuff, but there's really like down to earth stuff. The whole idea of ISS is off the earth for the earth. So we're really trying to use science to our benefit in space and learn and apply the lessons that we've learned to things on Earth.

Scott Benner 59:58
Sometimes I feel like it's the limitations of how the lifespan of a human being that limits us from imagining out into the future. Because if you mean if you think about it, I think Carl Benz invented the first car in like 1885 or 86 ish in there, right? So like 134. Not that long ago, you know, 130, some years ago, people rode horses to get places. That's not that long ago when you really stop and think about it. And yet, it seems like forever. If you're 20 years old, you're like, Oh, 134 years ago. That's, that's forever. And it's not it's it's just this split second in in time. And that, I think, is like when you said Voyager has been out there for 50 years. So you said like, 50 years? I think that's, I think, I don't know, like, I think then people here like, and it's only to Pluto. And you're like, No, no, you're thinking about it wrong. But it's the time, it's confusing because of our lifespan. And because of how we really see it. I mean, if you stop and I don't want to be a bummer here, but you basically spend the first 20 years of your life getting on your feet, right, and then mid 20s or so you start to pull it together a little bit. So you've basically got about 20 good years in there before your back starts to hurt all the time, you know, I'm saying, then you're on the backs, they go to the back nine, some people call it the downswing, whatever you want. And then you get as much time as you get at the end. And so you your real life, like you're making babies, expanding the planet, that part of your life is about 2025 years right in the middle there. And that just makes all this seem magical. In, in a way that's almost like, well, I don't need to pay attention to it. Because, like, I won't be around to see it. But I just don't buy into that, like I love the idea of feeling like you were in some way, a small part of like a bigger idea. And I don't know, just to consider that, you know, people rode horses less than 150 years ago was their only means of transportation, personal transportation. And now there are I mean, it seems effortless now when the Rockets go up, like they just see ignition and a bunch of fire and a couple of minutes later, you're breaking orbit. And it's just crazy. I wish people in general would just take a minute to think about that. The the, you know how far you've come in such a short amount of time. And sure I'm not going to be alive 130 some years from now. But imagine what people are going to say like, oh, back in 2020. You know, they had to do this, like, think of what a leap it is from horses to you, the car you're driving today. And from horses to the rockets. Like, it's just it feels it feels like we're really just starting to me. Does that. Is that right?

April Blackwell 1:03:00
Yeah, I think so. And it's interesting to you, you know, this year, we launched Bob and Doug, you may have heard of them. They launched this summer on the first commercial spaceflight, through SpaceX. That arrived at the International Space Station. And that was the first time that I have seen in my personal lifetime, a new vehicle, launch with humans on it and arrive at the space station. Like you said, there was the space shuttle before but you know, I wasn't around when the space shuttle took his first flight. So that was literally this generation's first new human rated space vehicle, which is kind of just blows your mind. And I think things are just going to get more streamlined and efficient from here, and there's gonna be a lot more, you know, people that aren't necessarily astronauts, but are more private paying customers or we're calling them private astronaut missions. Pam's going to the space station and we're adding a couple of commercial modules on the front of ISS to accommodate them and the work that they're going to do. So it's like a whole new era of space travel and sort of the missions are evolving. And I hope that getting I guess more normal people access to space will make it something that kind of is more interesting to the general public again.

Scott Benner 1:04:35
Yeah. Hey, listen, when things on Corona whenever that happens. There are I think there are four spots around the country where you can visit like a retired space shuttle and I've done it at the universe or Is that how you say the name is Steven? You'd var there's this Yeah, in Virginia. And until you've literally stood like 20 feet away from the space shuttle and looked up and gone. Wow. Got that into space, and then it came back and just glide it back down again. It's it's mind numbing to, to think about, hey, you just said about adding on to the, onto the station. And when you do that, does that fundamentally change everything about how you move? It does? Like, how do you make adjustments for that?

April Blackwell 1:05:20
Oh, that's awesome. Wow, you're like thinking like an engineer? That's so cool.

Scott Benner 1:05:23
Well, you're changing it. Right. So it's got to go ahead.

April Blackwell 1:05:27
Absolutely, yes. So, you know, we can basically, do you remember those like old timey little desktop models where it would be like a pin, and then something on one side and a weight on the other side. And you could like, spin it around,

Unknown Speaker 1:05:44
to kind of balance on it's like, yeah, like a balancing thing.

April Blackwell 1:05:48
So that's kind of how we fly the space station, we, we use these big gyroscopes says, you know, just like a gyroscope you'd think of we use for huge ones to stabilize ISS. And so when we add a new module, or a new vehicle Docs or undocks, we definitely change our orientation ever so slightly, just to make sure that everything is still balanced throughout an orbit.

Scott Benner 1:06:17
Well see, that's cool. How long does the space station last? Like? Is it is there a retirement date for it?

April Blackwell 1:06:25
I think the last retirement date I heard for it was 2028. That keeps getting pushed back. It's kind of dependent on Congress and funding. We are an international collaboration. So we also have international partners which provide money and resources to the program. So they kind of feed into it as well. But the other interesting thing is just ISS is kind of old. If you think about 20 years ago, and think about the computer technology 20 years ago, I mean, it was crazy different than it is today. And those are the computers that are on ISS. And especially space stuff takes a while to get certified to even fly in space. So those computers are probably even a few years older than 20. So the interesting engineering challenge for us now with the space station is how can we use the technology and resources we already have in space, because it's really expensive to launch stuff in new ways to support new programs. And that's, it's a really a unique engineering challenge to use what you already have, it's kind of like that Apollo 13 moment where they throw all the stuff on the table and say, Hey, make a co2 scrubber from all this crap that we have on board. And that's all you got, because we're not wanting anything else up there. So it's kind of a fun challenge.

Scott Benner 1:07:48
No kidding. So when it Have we retired space stations prior to this one,

April Blackwell 1:07:56
the US has never had a space station prior to this one. We, the Russians have had space stations several. And they first hired those after a few years of runtime each time, the longest being Mir, which you probably remember, which proceeded ISS just a little bit and we actually had us astronauts onboard mirror, and the space station or the space shuttle could actually dock with mirror. So that was kind of the some of the first steps in our collaboration with Russia. But this is the first

Scott Benner 1:08:31
US space station when Russia was done with them. Do they crash them? Or do they point them in the other direction and just shoot them away? How do you do that?

April Blackwell 1:08:42
I you know what I have to go back because we did have Skylab. So those were short duration space stations, I guess you could qualify them as that. But um, so you're kind of talking about end of life, which we actually have plans in place, should ISS need to be deorbited. And there's this special place in the South Pacific off the coast of Australia that sort of all of this space, junk space stuff that we want to have reenter safely. We kind of shoot for that one area in the Pacific, because it's the most uninhabited place on Earth. So yeah, it takes a lot of planning to safely deorbit something as large as the ISS.

Scott Benner 1:09:26
I'm just reading here. It says right now there are nearly 6000 satellites circling circling our planet 60% of those are defunct, they're just and roughly 40% are operational. That's really crazy. So private companies like if you have Sirius Satellite Radio, that's a company just a privately owned company who launched a satellite into space to absorb assuming all kinds of communications companies have satellites. Well, they start bumping into each other eventually. Why doesn't that happen?

April Blackwell 1:09:56
It does happen occasionally. And those are Those are bad days actually. So there, there's, you know, the US has a military aspect that monitors all of the space debris or satellites, they have an entire catalog of 1000s of objects that they're tracking everything from an actual satellite down to, you know, say a wrench that an astronaut accidentally let loose during a spacewalk. So tons of different stuff they're tracking. The problem is when they when they hit each other, which happens rarely, but it has happened before. To stay in orbit, and object is actually traveling at least 17,500 miles per hour. So if the orbits are not aligned, you know, you're basically hitting two objects together at those speeds. So essentially, double the speed. And in the worst case, situation, obviously, that's much faster than a bullet. And so when they collide, it's just a huge explosion. And it creates all these other tiny little pieces that now become part of that huge catalog of space debris. And so that can actually really impact our operations on ISS. And we've had to use the thrusters on ISS to move out of the way of pieces of debris before

Scott Benner 1:11:22
so that's the part that's hard to wrap your head around, if you're me, is that there's so much space is such a strange word now. But so if you look at a blown up example of satellites orbiting, are there first of all, are there levels like in like, like the FAA fly certain planes at one height, others and other attitudes? Like, are there? Are there distances from the planet that are like rings? That stuff floating? Like if I'm 18? t, am I in one ring? Or is do you know, I'm saying does any of that make sense? Because I'm confused? Yeah,

April Blackwell 1:11:56
I'm not sure it's as defined as you think of it like, you know, altitudes for airlines and stuff. But, you know, different satellites operate at different altitudes for different reasons. ISS, you know, we're pretty low. We're like 250 miles above Earth. And so we orbit every 90 minutes, we go around the Earth. Some satellites, they want to stay over the same spot on earth in order to provide, you know, certain communications or coverage of one area. And so those satellites are in geosynchronous orbit, which is something like 22,000 miles high. So, definitely different levels for different purposes.

Scott Benner 1:12:41
Okay, that makes sense. Thank you, I really appreciate you explaining that. Because to hear that there are 6000 manmade things out there that are floating around, you would just think, oh, they'll bump into each other constantly. But if you do kind of a macro pullback, and you really think of the planet, how big the planet is, and then see how far away from the planet some of these things are 6000 things is probably not really that much. Because of

April Blackwell 1:13:06
Yeah, that sounds like a low number to me. So it must be 6000 things that have been launched into space, or maybe like rocket bodies that haven't deorbited yet, but I think there's quite a few more just pieces of debris or, or things that we're tracking that are in orbit around Earth,

Scott Benner 1:13:27
when when things do slow down? Do they mostly burn up on re entry? Or does that matter? Does the size have something to do with it?

April Blackwell 1:13:37
The size does have something to do with it. But yeah, usually they're just going to burn up. You know, even our is several of the cargo vehicles that we bring up to the ISS, they just burn up on re entry. And their reentry is planned such that they'll hit the atmosphere at an angle to make sure that they burn up, which is a way that we dispose of things,

Scott Benner 1:14:01
bring it in slower, so it spends more time in that heat and just destroys them. Yep. Okay, how about in Apollo 13? When they say if we come back at the wrong angle will skip off and shoot out in the space? Was that just for drama?

April Blackwell 1:14:17
No, that's actually a very real phenomenon. And we actually are, you know, we've been talking about that a lot and grand tree and orbital mechanics for our new missions. Because sometimes you can use that to your advantage. You know, if you are maybe targeting a land landing site that in the ocean that now has a hurricane brewing. You know, maybe you do want to skip off and reenter at a slightly different location or angle. So it's not always a bad thing. Depending on what kind of programs you have at your disposal to use.

Scott Benner 1:14:56
Do movies like Star Wars make you go this is not you anywhere close to how it would be do you have that weird feeling when you see media around space dramatisations. Um,

April Blackwell 1:15:08
there's so there's definitely sort of two categories. There's like the science fiction and the science fantasy. I am not a huge fan of science fantasy. Just because I think it's not really about space or science. It's more about the story. So you could set that in, you know, England 2000 years ago, and it would be the same story. It's just like a little bit different, you know, setting. But so I'm not a huge fan of those. I do. Like Star Trek, it's a little more of the science fiction where it seems plausible. It's just, you know, not all of that technology is is designed yet. So I'm not a huge Star Wars fan. Sorry, if that's your thing. Don't feel positive. I do. Like I do like Star Trek. And, and those sorts of things where it seems a little bit more possible, like the Martian actually, really great story. And a lot of that is super realistic. So I like stuff like that.

Scott Benner 1:16:09
Did you catch away on Netflix?

April Blackwell 1:16:11
I have not watched it yet. Like I said, I have two young kids. So they didn't watch a lot of TV. Unfortunately,

Scott Benner 1:16:17
I enjoyed it. And then they cancelled after one season, they said it was too expensive to make or something and COVID blah, blah, blah. I was like, come on. It's the first time I've liked Hilary Swank. And like five things she's done, and then they just took it from her. It's not fair. I mean, seriously, she needs to work. How old? Are those kids years? By the way?

April Blackwell 1:16:37
They are two and four.

Scott Benner 1:16:39
Oh, wow. Those are little kids. Yeah. There's so much trouble. I mean, fine at that age. Right? Does your husband do something similar to you? Or is he like, have something it's got nothing to do with engineering or anything like what you do?

April Blackwell 1:16:58
So funny story, maybe if I tell you how we met, it will give you a hint. So we actually met because I? Well, we were both counselors at Space Camp. While we were in college. That's where we met. And he is I'm an aerospace engineer. He's a mechanical engineer, recently actually switched over to NASA, and he is working on the batteries that will be used in the spacesuits when we go to the moon.

Scott Benner 1:17:32
Wow, what's the target of the moon? Sorry, what's the target date for getting back to the moon for us?

April Blackwell 1:17:40
It's a little bit in flux. The the timeline for the the current administration is boots on the moon by 2024. NASA is kind of in a wait and see mode to see what's going to happen with the presidential transition. But that's the work to date as of now. So

Scott Benner 1:17:59
is there a plan to keep them there for Speight a stretch of time or so we're

April Blackwell 1:18:06
actually planning the first missions will kind of be similar to Apollo. So just kind of go there, land, come back. But eventually, we'd want to build a space station out near the moon actually in something called a halo orbit. And that will be sort of this interim spot that the astronauts hang out there. And then they get in basically their, you know, lunar craft that's going to land on the moon, go down to the surface for some period of time, come back up to the space station, and then catch a different vehicle for the ride home.

Scott Benner 1:18:42
So you'll it's, they'll, you'll be able to put basically moon explorers on that space station and have them like they're going to work, they can just go down to the moon, do something come back up to the space station, so they can do it more frequently without having to go all the way home again. That's exciting, right?

April Blackwell 1:19:00
Yeah, it'll be pretty fun.

Scott Benner 1:19:02
So one day, we'll they'll just be like a, like a system of stations. Do you think? Or do you think those are the only two?

Unknown Speaker 1:19:13
haven't really thought about that. I

April Blackwell 1:19:15
haven't heard of any specific plans to do a system of stations, there's been lots of talk leading up to the moon missions on, you know, what makes the most sense for sort of the long term goals for NASA. So previously, we were thinking about putting a space station at a Lagrangian point, which is just this fancy word for saying sort of an equal balanced gravity point. Which is nice, because then we don't have to use a lot of propellant to try to stabilize our orbit or anything. The problem with that is we don't have a really big

Scott Benner 1:19:51
system of deep space communication yet, just because we haven't needed it. So there's just some infrastructure that's needed there. Before we can Think about kind of those longer term missions, that kind of interesting thinking should illuminate for people that the, the amount of time that it takes like you have to put a satellite in a spot just to communicate and putting that satellite there could end up taking years, right to design it. And then as technology is moving forward, everybody has that perspective from their cell phone. Like how quickly tech changes. So the moment you make the decision, this is what we're going to build this communication satellite out of the second you make the decision, it becomes obsolete, almost, as technology flies forward, it must be difficult to decide when to make something, you know, when is the technology right to to move forward like that? You just said something that made me wonder, when you when you actually move the space station, you talked about propellant? What does propel it? Like it like little tiny rockets? Is it is it air is it like what moves it? Yeah, we

April Blackwell 1:20:58
use thrusters. So essentially like little rocket engines, but they just take one propellant, so we don't need, well, we need a fuel and an oxidizer. But we, we don't need a lot of all the extras that come with, you know, the rockets that we launch off Earth, which is nice. But yeah, we try not to use those very much, because, you know, it costs something like $10,000 a pound to launch something in the space. So, you know, every little pound of propellant we use is pretty expensive. And that's why we try to use, you know, the electricity we generate from the solar arrays to drive our big gyroscopes in order to stabilize ISS. And we've come up with some really unique ways to maneuver ISS using just those gyroscopes. And very little propellant, which is really cool. We do this one maneuver, it's my favorite thing. It's called an OPM, everything in NASA is an acronym, but it stands for optimized propellant maneuver. And we actually flip the space station 180 degrees, so we flip it over backwards over the period of one orbit, so 90 minutes and we use very little propellant, we kind of just use propellant to get it started, then we use the gyroscopes and gravity actually to sort of flip us all the way over backwards to set up for an event. So it's pretty cool.

Scott Benner 1:22:27
Do you tell the astronauts that's happening?

April Blackwell 1:22:30
Yeah, we do. We give them something called an attitude timeline every day, they get sort of like this little DAILY Report. And it gives them some information about the day and any special things they need to keep in mind. So if we're going to be doing any maneuvers or anything like that, we'll add that in our attitude timeline for the astronauts,

Scott Benner 1:22:50
if you didn't tell them what they notice.

April Blackwell 1:22:54
I don't think they would notice unless they looked out the window and realize they were flying backwards. So essentially,

Scott Benner 1:23:00
there's because they're not gonna have any feeling of orientation changing.

Unknown Speaker 1:23:05
Right?

April Blackwell 1:23:06
They there's been a few astronauts, if you Google it, they've done some YouTube videos on reboost. So sometimes we have to boost the altitude of the station. And if they know it's coming, sometimes they'll set up these little like, gravity indicators, acceleration indicators, like a little stuffed animal or something. And you can see it in the video. But I think it would be hard for the astronauts to know that without knowing beforehand. Yeah.

Scott Benner 1:23:32
I my only obvious. We went on a cruise one time, and we were up on the deck. And you know, the launch time was coming up, but I wasn't really paying attention. And my wife's like, we're moving. And I was I don't think we are, we're still right here. And she says, No, it's moving. I'm telling you it's moving. And no lie. She was right. Like she could feel it immediately. Whereas I had no inclination of it at all. I don't know what that you know, it's probably something in your inner ear or something like that. But I just wondered like, you could actually flip them around. And if they couldn't see out the window, they'd have no idea that was happening is very clever. Meet an astronaut as part of your job.

April Blackwell 1:24:13
Oh, yeah. So we have astronauts that are kept calm. So one of the flight control disciplines is kept calm. And they are the ones that talk to the astronauts on board. So a lot of times they are astronauts themselves. And then also our group is responsible for teaching the astronauts about our system. So each astronaut candidate goes through like two years of training on just how to operate ISS and what all of the terms mean and you know, what to do if they don't have communication with the ground and so our group teaches them how to control the station's attitude if they don't have calm with the ground. Okay,

Scott Benner 1:24:57
so you have friends that are astronauts basically Like you send Christmas cards to astronauts, stuff like that just just, I wouldn't

April Blackwell 1:25:03
say super close with any of them. But they're

they're definitely in, you know, all of our meetings, we have astronaut representation. And they're a big part of what we do, because we want to make sure we're keeping their perspective in mind while we're designing procedures or planning events.

Scott Benner 1:25:24
Gotcha. But if I said to you at work, stand up and go talk to an astronaut, you could do that. Yeah, excellent. This is what I need to know. Okay, that's fine. That seemed like the most important thing to me. I don't know why I'm imagining when you said that astronauts are communicating with others that are in space that almost felt like, yeah, you'll usually hire like an X player to coach the team kind of feeling like, you know, like people who speak that language and kind of have been in the shoes of the person they're talking to. Does that make sense? Honestly, I don't know if that's part of the consideration. But it does make sense to me. All right. Here's

April Blackwell 1:26:01
the whole idea, you know, how to package a call, so that someone on board would understand it?

Scott Benner 1:26:07
Yeah. So here's the thing, April, I'm going to just keep talking to you. So we have to stop. Because I'm not going to stop, you're gonna say something that's gonna make me wonder something else. And then this is going to be the longest podcast in the history of time. So I don't want to do that to you. Because I promised you an hour. And it's been longer than that. Now. Tell me, what's next time you go to war? Well, no, no, let's go back to the email. So you get the email that says that you might have to do a maneuver because of junk. And then you can't like what happens next? Like it's such an odd thing, that it's an email, just in case you're wondering.

April Blackwell 1:26:47
Yeah, so we have, we have procedures for everything. And part of this procedure, you know, is that we need at least three and a half hours. Notice before something we call a TCPA, which is time of closest approach, that's the object that stratcom is tracking or whatever. And then we have to basically talk on the loops to our Russian colleagues, set up timing for when the thrusters are going to fire, which thrusters we're going to use, how long we're going to burn, and what time we're going to perform that burn in order to make sure we're clear of the space debris in time.

Scott Benner 1:27:28
That's amazing. All that made me think is that I'm very glad that there are spark dedicated people in the world to do what I'm assuming there. You know, there are jobs that are not as cool as yours, that still take this kind of dedication and understanding. It's very, you know, very fun to bring your story to the people listening to the podcast, because I know that one of the things that happens very frequently to people, especially when their children are diagnosed, is they just think that possibilities are gone now. And you do something really cool. So obviously, obviously, I

Unknown Speaker 1:28:02
think so.

Scott Benner 1:28:04
Well, you know, April, Tell, tell everybody, as we say goodbye here a little bit. When I said I was really excited to get you on the podcast, you couldn't imagine why really, you were like, Why me? Like this isn't excited, like, Do you not see this as amazing? I mean, I know you do you just assume other people don't care? Like, what was that disconnect there? Yeah. Do you remember saying

April Blackwell 1:28:24
that question? I do. I guess I just, you know, this is my job. Everybody has a job. And you know, just because I am, I guess I'm fortunate enough to be able to work, a job that I truly love and think is absolutely incredible, and never imagined that I would get to do this. You know, I it's still a job. And I don't know, I'm not sure that it should be celebrated more than someone else's job.

Scott Benner 1:28:59
That is a very 2020 answer. I appreciate your kindness towards other people, you do something really cool and most of us are idiots. That's really what I'm here to say. You understand that? If, if I hopped off the Mayflower, right, like, and people were like, go make a new world. I'd walk like 15 feet away and go like is here. Okay, you know, like, and they're like, no go in farther. The middle I got to a creek or a river. I just feel like I can't go any farther. That would be it. Like, I don't have that in me. Whatever that is that like push over this thing. build a bridge over this to get to the next thing. My brain just doesn't work that way. I would just set up shop somewhere like here's good. They live on the beach property. It'd be like the far enough so that there are other people who look at a river and think I can build a structure over top of that river. Or, you know, it would just be easier if there were roads. Or, you know, wouldn't it be great if we put up poles with wires on them, so we could talk to people farther away like that those are special people who who do those things, and propel us forward. And I know I'm not one of those people. And I imagine a lot of people are more like me, like, I just wanted to, like, be somewhere and, you know, have a family and I don't have thoughts like that what you do is like fanciful. It's, it's almost, it's magical.

April Blackwell 1:30:22
Will you say that? But I mean, anyone that lives with diabetes, or takes care of someone with diabetes, you know, faces challenges like this, literally every single day, we have to figure out, how are we going to get this high down? How are we going to find something to eat when we're in the middle of I don't know, Yosemite or something? And, you know, how can we streamline our diabetes management to make it easier for everybody and tighter control? And so, I mean, you say that, but I think all of us, as people that interact at diabetes, do this on some some smaller scale, maybe almost every day?

Scott Benner 1:31:01
Isn't it interesting that, first of all, you said Yosemite, my favorite vacation I've ever taken in my life. It's possible, you and I are supposed to be married April. And secondly. So I hear what you're saying. And you're 100%, right, my disconnect, for feeling good about myself as I'm building all kinds of bridges. But my bridges are made out of thoughts, and not something physical. So I could sit here and make the argument that I have propelled people with diabetes forward with words and ideas and everything. And I guess that is building a bridge over a river. But like I'm talking about, like physically doing it. Like saying, we have this and it needs to get there and actually making it get there. I don't know, that's maybe that's part of your engineering brain that you think is normal that other people who aren't engineers? Don't, you know, just don't possess. So I think you're right. I think people living with diabetes make big decisions all the time. And the ones who are continuing to move forward are doing the exact same thing. So they're, they're launching theoretical space stations in this into diabetes space, let's say. Absolutely. Yeah, that I believe I really do. But nuts and bolts. You're way smarter than me and just take it. Okay. Just say thank you and stop arguing. Because this is really cool. Yes, sir. Thank you. There now we're getting to it. Take the compliment April.

Unknown Speaker 1:32:27
I'll try.

Scott Benner 1:32:28
Is there anything that we didn't talk about that I should have asked you about? You probably feel dizzy because I just I jump around a lot when I'm doing this stuff.

April Blackwell 1:32:41
You're like my husband. He is like really bad add. So we'll just be doing something and then it'll make him think of something totally different.

Scott Benner 1:32:50
I would argue that's what makes this podcast interesting. But okay, it's fine.

April Blackwell 1:32:53
No, no, yeah, yeah. No, I think it's good for a podcast. It's just sometimes annoying being married to that person. That's okay.

Unknown Speaker 1:33:02
Do you want to restart and complain about your husband a little bit? We could do a half hour on that if you want

Unknown Speaker 1:33:08
to be married to someone with a DD when you have diabetes.

Scott Benner 1:33:12
Then right now, I listen. I take your point. You say something, I can feel myself fighting. Like I have a I ask you a question. And I have in my mind a question. My my next question that's going to propel along like, I don't know what you're gonna say, but I can imagine extending it with a second question. But then while you're saying it, you say something that I find so much more interesting than what I was gonna ask that I just deviate and go to that. And that's how we ended up 40 minutes into it before I was like, you should probably tell people what you do at NASA.

April Blackwell 1:33:44
Oh, it's awesome. It's, it's good to talk to someone who's really interested in it. So

Scott Benner 1:33:49
I don't know how everybody's not completely interested in it. It's just it's, it's one of the most fascinating things that we do is people like send people up into space and they live there, and they don't die. And a thing doesn't hit them. And it's just, it's, it's so incredible. It tend to not see that as as incredible is you know, I had a cellist on recently. And I'm, I'm just a massive cello fan. I like I like an unaccompanied cello played with feeling and heart by one person. And as I was talking to her, I probably talked to her the way I talk to you about this. And I've gotten a lot of notes since then from people are like I didn't understand I never heard the cello. I've been listening, that kind of thing. And I thought good, like that's a complicated thing that a brilliant person does and and it's just people don't pay attention to it. And I don't know like you know, I shared with April I'm gonna let you go in a second like you're not having like a low blood sugar. Your kids aren't locked in a closet or something like that. Right. Okay, so I shared with April that I was not when we spoke before this, that I was not a good student in school. And I had a book report to, which I didn't do. And I came to my mom the night before it was due, literally. And I said, Hey, had a big book report due tomorrow. You know, it's a lot of points, I haven't started it. Not gonna lie. If you let me pretend to be sick tomorrow, and stay home, I'll get it all done in a day, which probably was also a lie, it was probably just me procrastinating more. And so I was home, in my living room, I can picture it, sitting on the sofa with a coffee table in front of me, with encyclopedias, trying to find out information about this thing I was writing a report on, because God knows I wasn't gonna, you know, read the book. And so I am sitting there trying to do it, I have the television on. And it happens to be and I did not do this, you know, purposefully, it happens to be the day of the shuttle disaster. And so I flipped the television on and I watched the shuttle go up, I watched it explode. And I watched everything that happened afterwards. And it just sticks with me to this day that there were these people who were strapping they're asked to a rocket to try to move people forward, and it killed them. And that somebody just came along afterwards and did it again, like that the next person just stepped up and said, this is so important. I'm going to strap my ass to the next rocket, we're going to try this again. Like I find that completely inspirational. And I don't know if it has much to do with having witnessed it as much as I could, you know, live. But I just think it's amazing that the next person steps up in in all walks of life. But this one specifically like this isn't driving to the mall, April, you know what I mean? Like this is your feet are on the ground? And then I mean, what is it? Three, four or five minutes later? You're in orbit, right? Just there. If people haven't watched a launch, they, they should they should watch it straight through? Because I find it astonishing. And yeah, I

April Blackwell 1:37:00
agree. I wasn't alive for challenger, I was alive for Columbia, which broke up on reentry. But it's interesting, because at NASA, we really take the failures we've had seriously because we have had failures. And that's part of this game. It's it's a risk. And you know, astronauts know that going in, and we try to mitigate the risks as best we can. But there's just some element of risk that remains when you get on top of basically a huge explosive. So NASA is really great about, you know, reflecting and reviewing the lessons that we learned. And every year as flight controllers, we have proficiency. And we have to read the Columbia accident investigation report. And see, you know, where the links in the error chain happened and apply those to the situations we're in now. So it is really interesting, and I can't say, you know, I can't speak from the astronaut perspective of actually getting back on but just us as flight controllers sitting there, you know, even when you're in a simulation, and you know, it's all made up. But something happens to an astronaut. It's, it just amps up the whole room. And, you know, we're also invested in this, like you said at the beginning, it's not, you know, it's not just like a job, everyone who works there loves space and loves doing this. And so that investment means that we have to be able to control our emotions and compartmentalize a little bit, but realize that this is a huge deal.

Scott Benner 1:38:41
Yeah. And it's not just someone's life in your hands. It's it's public perception of NASA, which I remember, you know, you talked about the re entry. And we follow that you follow that news back then, like you said earlier, like you couldn't just open your phone up and find out what was going on the workday and turn the news on at night to find out what was going on. And to finally learn that this just basically the square of you know, foam, popped off of the front of the shuttle and allowed heat to penetrate the hole is it took them forever to like, actually come out and tell us that and and you learned about it. I never forget like thinking like, wait, it's foam. Like there's like, like foam on the outside of the space shuttle. That's what was keeping it from like, really, you know, like, what, okay, like any That's crazy. who figured that out? What genius figured out if you put me in charge of that, I'd be like, Well, obviously we need nine feet of steel thick. You know, like, you know, like I wouldn't know like I would have no idea how to imagine things like that. So when you say you know, people's, you know, you kind of have people's lives in your hands you definitely do. But it's also like it's the life of the project and, and all that that touches because when it's slowed down for a while when you No kind of politically, there was no taste for pushing forward. That was scary to me. Like, we can't stop doing this, like, because what did we do all this for? If you're going to stop now, like you have to keep going and find out what's next.

April Blackwell 1:40:14
Yeah, you know, that still drives a lot of our decisions, you know, keeping that in mind. And, you know, ensuring that we have the most safety we possibly can with the budget that we're given in the schedule that we have to, to meet in order to fulfill those requirements. And keep everything safe so that we can keep going and keep exploring.

Scott Benner 1:40:37
Yeah, I'm up for that. as much money as possible should go towards any kind of exploration, scientific exploration. In my mind. That's the only way you're going to get somewhere, you have to come to the conclusion that your life isn't the point. And that sounds crazy. But it's, it's humanity's life. That's the point. Like it's not about where you are what you want, personally, it's about where do we send it? And if it's constantly like that, then then the possibilities are endless. But when you focus inward, then everything stops and stands still.

April Blackwell 1:41:13
Yep. And it's like that, even outside of space. You know, I think just the recent political cycle has shown us that, that sometimes it's really important to step back and have that sort of out of body experience that it's not about me, it's about what's best for for everybody. Yeah, so

Scott Benner 1:41:30
yeah, it's basically the wear a mask of space travel just like hey, maybe it's right, maybe it's not just do it. Let's see, if we can't move forward a little bit here. It just in general, it's, it's, it takes a long time, I didn't always think like that either. It takes a long time to be mature enough to say, that is not the most important thing here. And to make the most important thing, something that you'll never see feel touch or know about. But that's how I feel. I to me, like, human exploration feels. Just, it's the whole thing. Like it's everything, like we used to, like I said, we used to ride horses, we used to, used to not live here, people, you know, we're on different continents, and he imagined how scary it was to get on a ship in you know, 16 something and be like, Hey, I wonder what's over on the other side of that ocean? I wouldn't have the nerve to do that. I feel like I'm standing right here, buddy. Where I know I'm getting dysentery and dying. All right. Anyway, you were really delightful. I really appreciate you coming on and doing this.

April Blackwell 1:42:35
Yes. Thank you so much for reaching out it. It's sort of a dream come true to be on the Juicebox Podcast.

Scott Benner 1:42:41
Oh, wait a minute. Let's not cut away too soon. were you gonna say something nice about the podcast?

April Blackwell 1:42:48
Well, I just think, you know, it's definitely one of the staples, I think in the diabetes community. And you know, I've been in the diabetes online community sphere for, I don't know, probably 10 years, I've been writing my blog sporadically, and sort of recently got on Instagram and stuff, but it's just one of those staples that has been around forever. We can probably think of, on one hand kind of the things that have really shaped the community and, you know, propelled us forward as a community. April,

Scott Benner 1:43:24
if you're trying to make me cry at the end. You almost got there, but you fell short by not calling me the john glenn of diabetes.

April Blackwell 1:43:30
Oh, well, Chuck Yeager just died yesterday. So we got to you know, we got a hold off. I really, you know, comparing so

Scott Benner 1:43:38
Oh, I didn't realize that's terrible. Yeah. Huh. The gallon died to famous Philly yesterday, I felt bad for him, he was gonna get into the Hall of Fame. But because of COVID-19 they didn't do it this year. And he didn't he was definitely getting in this year. And then he passed away without knowing the ever made it so and he will make it they'll put him in the very next time. But I didn't know about Chuck Yeager. That sucks. Yeah, there's so many pioneering people that, um, that we forget about along the way. It's, it's tough, you know, but, but to your I want to answer what you said seriously, or respond to what you said, seriously, I in my heart, it's very nice to hear you say that because I'm, I am very much trying to shift the way people think about their diabetes in a in a big way. Like, I don't just want to fix it for a dozen people. And it's a high minded idea, and maybe I'm crazy, but I think I'm moving. I think this podcast is moving forward the way people think about their care. And I just, I just keep imagining that there's a there'll be a tipping point where it'll just, it'll explode out of my hands, and it won't be up to me anymore. And I'll have reached enough people who speak about using their insulin in a meaningful way that that'll reach more and more and more people and and hopefully nobody will ever sit around staring at To 300 blood sugar, four hours and thinking like it's gonna come down, it's gonna come down, which is what, you know, a lot of current direction would lead you to do. So. That's it. I just, that's, that's this is my moon landing right here. This is not quite,

April Blackwell 1:45:19
you know, there's a lot of people out there who, you know, probably haven't talked to you personally and, and I was in the same boat until just a couple of weeks ago. So from all of us, maybe silent ish voices, we appreciate what you're doing and all the hard work I know this takes to put together

Scott Benner 1:45:37
Thank you. I hope you understand that this is exactly for me. Like when you were like you want me to be on the place. I'm like, I think you're talking about the wrong person. Now I don't have a hard to I guess we made a lot of points that came full circle here, but it's hard for me to see this is more than my job some days, because it's um, it takes a lot of like, in the moment effort. It just feels like a thing I have, I'm supposed to do I have to do. It's on my schedule. Like I just booked Jenny. Do you like Jenny on the show? Yeah, I just booked Jenny out like through through 2021. Like, I have Jen on the schedule. And I already told her what I'm going to make her do in 2022. She's like, are you alright with all this because, you know, she's not an employee. She's not she's just a person who we enjoy talking about diabetes together. And, and, and she gives a lot of her time to the podcast. So. But yeah, I have plans for the show out like two or three years from now. Sometimes it's hard for me not to just want to dump it all out there at once. But I know that people won't find it. And it has to kind of be disseminated more slowly. But anyway, that's awesome.

April Blackwell 1:46:44
So you're you're already working long term just like we are over here in the space industry.

Scott Benner 1:46:49
Maybe my ADHD is more conversational. A huge thank you to APR for coming on the show and talking to me about the International Space Station and her job at NASA mission control. You can learn more about APR at nerdy APR comm or on Instagram at nerdy APR. And NASA is@nasa.gov I don't think they need the pimping for me, but you should check it out. There's some pretty cool pictures there. Let's thank the pod for sponsoring this episode of the podcast get your free no obligation demo the Omnipod tubeless insulin pump right now do it now. My Omni pod comm forward slash juice box after you've done that, jump over to dexcom.com forward slash juice box and look into that Dexcom g six continuous glucose monitor. If you're using insulin, you could use a Dexcom. And if you're a veteran of the United States military and get your health care through the VA, go check it out because I think they're covering it pretty much for everybody. But it's worth looking into is mappoint dexcom.com Ford slash juicebox. I do not have type one diabetes, but I am eating a lot of things that normally make people's blood sugar spikes so that you guys can see how a pancreas handles those things. You can check that out right now at Juicebox podcast.com forward slash CGM live. And we're going to be having other people after me. put their blood sugar's up there so people can watch if you're interested. Like say there's a meal you're really good at. If you're interested in sharing a blood sugar during a Bolus for a specific meal. Get in touch with me at Scott at Juicebox Podcast calm because we're looking for people to share their knowledge at the link and I want to thank sugar mate for helping me set up that webpage so that you can see blood sugars live Juicebox podcast.com forward slash CGM Live at that link. You can find a link to sugar mate. So you know once you get there feel like whoo this sugar made thing. Amazing. Just click on the sugar mate link and then you'll see it they're not a sponsor. Josh, the owner of sugar made just did me a huge solid and helped me set it up so you can see my blood sugar online. So thank you very much to Josh. Josh, this is your shout out thank you guys blow Josh up on social media. Let him know how cool he is. All right, next episode of the podcast will be coming up soon. Episode 420 it's gonna be another one about looping. algorithm pumping. Very interesting. Sorry to all your weed smokers out there that for 20 doesn't have anything to do with weed. I can't be that well planned out.

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