Full Transcripts

Hello, everyone, and welcome to Episode 407 of the Juicebox Podcast. On today's show, Erica Forsyth is here she has a master's in social work, and she specializes in diabetes. She's going to tell you more about in a second. But for right now please remember that nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise, please always consult a physician before making any changes to your health care plan are becoming bold with insulin.

Hi, my name is Erika Forsyth. I am a licensed Marriage and Family Therapist and type one for over 30 years.

Okay, so I'm already that quickly. My I don't think I have ADHD. But when you said that I was like, Oh, we should just talk about being married. That would be anything. But to find out why is it so hard to be married? And why do people argue about Oh, but nevermind, that's not what we're gonna do. This show is sponsored today by the glucagon that my daughter carries, g Volk hype open. Find out more at G Volk glucagon.com forward slash juice box. This episode is also sponsored by the Omni pod tubeless insulin pump. And you can get a free no obligation demo of the on the pod sent directly to you today by going to my Omni pod.com Ford slash juicebox. Try it on where it and see what you think before you commit. Don't forget to check out touched by type one there at touched by type one.org. It is my absolute favorite diabetes organization. Check them out. They're also on Instagram and Facebook touched by type one.org. When were you diagnosed?

I was diagnosed at age 12. In the summer at summer camp,

summer camp, not the best memory or not a bad memory.

Um, it was a pretty traumatic memory and diagnosis story. You know, everyone has their own diagnosis story. It was over kind of a span of a couple months. It was a three week long summer camp and I was diagnosed the night, the last night of the three week summer camp.

Oh, and then they shipped you home lifeless.

They I don't remember this but they put me I was in sixth grade. They put me in a ambulance and I was on my way to a diabetic coma ketoacidosis. And so then I my parents met me at the ER at some point that night. I know it's all kind of a blur. Yeah.

So you were there for three weeks? Do you think it's just happening to you the entirety of those three weeks?

You know, I think they I was played in a volleyball camp in the beginning of the summer. And you know, to do that I had to have a you know, check in a physical and also before going away for the summer camp. And definitely I was experiencing sometimes, but like many families we did not know to look for, you know, frequent thirst, frequent urination and extreme weight loss. They just thought I was growing and it was hot. And I was playing lots of volleyball. And then I went off to summer camp. And you know, there was a flu going through the camp and I fainted. So they thought it was that they thought it maybe was I was going through puberty. You know, definitely was experiencing extreme fatigue, which was really abnormal because I was an athlete. Yeah. So it can when you're not really looking for type one, the symptoms aren't as obvious. But then when you look back, and you can check off, you know, all of those symptoms like oh my gosh, we should have known. Yeah, I

mean, I guess especially when you're under the care of corny 18 year old camp counselors to they're probably just like she's got the flow. Get her in a bed.

Oh, yes. Yes. And you know, it was interesting. Finally, it was the last day of camp and in most camps, you know, everyone that daycare, they're getting ready for the banquet, and so all the girls are running around in a room or cabin, and I'm kind of going in and out of consciousness and they're, they're good, they're prepping or getting dressed or getting their makeup on. And I guess finally my symptoms are made known to a male camp counselor who happened to have type one. And so I remember him coming into our room which was you know, a male and the girls cabin was was like, you know, endless scary or just not normal. And he took my blood sugar and at Red high and at the time that was like, I think over 600. And so I think it was really kind of a saving grace that he heard my symptoms. He was there he knew to take my blood sugar. And you know, the rest is history. Yeah. Well,

that is lucky, honestly, for you. All right. Well, I've never been to camp but you just made it sound not very good.

Oh, I love the camp. You know what I went. It took me a couple years, but I went back in high school to kind of redeem my experience, because it was a special, it's a special place. That's cool. That's good. Yeah. Well, okay, so

how long ago was this?

This was 30 years ago.

Wow. All right. No, I'm gonna do some quick math and say that was 1990.

That was that was the summer of 1990. That was good math.

Thank you. I'm very impressed at my ability to subtract three. to subtract three from to know it's a negative one, then knock 10 years off a 2000. The way I came up with, it really is brilliant. I don't want to bore anybody with it, but very impressed with what I learned in seventh grade. And was able to retain Okay, so you're on the show today, you were you were actually suggests suggested to me by someone else. Am I right about that?

Yes, yeah.

So tell me what you do professionally.

Professionally, I am, as I said, in a marriage and family therapist, but I specialize in working with people with diabetes and their families, their caregivers, as we know it, you know, it takes a village and it affects not only the person with diabetes, but everyone around him or her. And so I love my job. And I love that I get to walk alongside people, you know, from newly diagnosed to, you know, people living with it for 1015 2030 plus years, who are maybe experiencing some, you know, distress or burnout or other issues that may or may not be related to diabetes, but oftentimes, it can go back to that.

Why don't we start with burning out? And I'd love to know. So I'm assuming you see people who've been with diabetes for all length of time. And then how did you think of burnout? Like, beyond, you know, just the word that gets kind of thrown around in, you know, in social circles online? Like what what is burnout to you?

Yeah, so I, I think a lot of people really work on clarifying that diabetes, distress leads to burnout. And I think you know, it, if you're experiencing just stress over and maybe it comes and goes, but when you're actually experiencing burnout, people will describe it as you know, hitting a wall, or maybe it's you feel like you just don't have the, you know, capacity to take care of yourself, manage your diabetes, maybe you want to skip a dose, maybe you just want to eat whatever and not think about, you know, carb counting or or think about what where's my blood sugar now, what am I doing and all the things that we have to think about when we're about to do something or eat something or exercise. And so burnout is, I just want to think about it, I'm, I'm done, I want to take a break, and you might you probably not even doing that consciously. And I think you know, burnout can be become very risky and scary when you're experiencing that over prolonged period of time.

Well, so you're saying that there's, like stressors that lead to the give up, like the hand throwing up, or even the subconscious hand throwing off of just like, I'm gonna get a bag of potato chips and sit on the sofa now, and this is the extent of my nutrition, like, I've just given up on everything, for reasons that can be external, and unseen. Is that possible, like so the way I to give you a little look into my head that one of the reasons I make this podcast is because that I think that managing Type One Diabetes is arduous, and that if you're mired down constantly in the math, and the worry and things are always going wrong, and your meal spike and you're high all the time, and you don't know why and then you drop low and you're, you know, you're concerned about being low, then you over treat you bounce up, this is an untenable way to live. And so I'm a big proponent of learning quickly how to manage the insulin so that you don't sort of start this journey of, of wherever, you know, it leads to that ends up with many people just being like, I can't do this or this thing beats me all the time or it's unknowable, or whatever. It ends up feeling like the different people. So it could be simple, right? Like it could be like one day I just don't feel like giving myself a shot. Then the next day, I don't know how many carbs are in this, and then it gets high. And I'll just leave it high and see if it comes down. And then these things build and build and build on themselves. Is that true?

Yes, I would say that's, that is an accurate description, in addition to maybe other external kind of stressors or you know, feeling like you're powerless. Or maybe you have a constant fear of, of having hypoglycemia, or you're really, you know, particularly in the teenage years, this is can be quite normal of feeling like you want to hide your diabetes from other people. or feeling like your doctor just doesn't understand what it's like. So in these are, that those are maybe at play. And in addition to you know, what, I just don't want it. I don't want to have to think about my blood sugar is and I want to eat five donuts this morning. And that can all snowball. Yes,

yeah. And then before you know it, you're so mired down in it that you don't know how you got there. And there's no way to know how to get out anymore.

Right. And, and, and kind of, you know, when you're sick all the time, you kind of just get used to feeling sick, and then maybe one day, you're not sick, like oh my gosh, I didn't know how good that feels to not be sick. I think you can become kind of used to maybe not feeling well, because of your sugar's are so high, and then emotionally and mentally, you're, you're down and out. And you that just becomes your new normal, right? Your pain, pain, the nuts, you know, where I want to enter it? Yes,

paint paint starts that way. It's a,

I

had a motorcycle accident, I was like 20. And I don't have any, like health insurance. So when I was lucky enough to stand up, they were like, you're going to the hospital. And I was like, I don't have insurance. You're not taking me to the hospital. I'm poor. I know where that leads to. So I just went home and my shoulder healed naturally, which obviously, in hindsight, wasn't a great decision. And over the next, you know, 20 years, it actually worked fine. But it turned out that, you know, the weird healing process besides the lump that's on my shoulder that you can feel that doesn't belong there. It turned out that there was, you know, a calcification that kept building and building and building and one day is impinged a, my, my gosh, it's such a simple concept. Everybody gets their shoulder repaired that thing in their shoulder is called anybody had

their rotator. Thank you,

Erica. in pain, it's the rotator cuff. And it just snapped. Right? But it happens super slowly. And it hurt a little you got used to it hurt a little more you got used to it couldn't lift your arm up as high, you got used to it. It's amazing how adaptive we can be, you know, and then I'll never forget the biggest relief I had in four years because it took 20 years for me to start noticing the problem and for years for it to explode. But I was trying to have a catch with my son one day thinking I was pushing through this, you know, stiffnesses what, how I imagined it my addled mind, you know. And then suddenly, I said to him, like, Oh my god, I worked through it. It's, it feels great. And for the next 20 minutes, it was perfect, until I realized that my rotator cuff it the 10 minutes. Right and just the snapping of it alleviated my pain for a while until a new pain showed up. I think that's exactly what you're talking about. Is that it? You know, you start off with a you know, not having diabetes. Your blood sugar's in the 80s all the time, then suddenly, it's not anymore. Now you know, you're in the 90s the hundreds you're honeymooning, and then suddenly it's 120 and 130 and 150. Before you know it, you feel completely normal at 200. And you're not you just don't realize it. So

yes, no, that's a that's a great analogy. And I'm sorry that happened that please.

What am I gonna do? You know, the day I figured it out? I couldn't hold a water bottle in my right hand.

Oh my god, like,

I am gonna move this to my left hand and call a doctor. But Batman Oh, yeah, please smart move would have been when I was 20 years old, going a little bit in debt and having my shoulders but I was really broke back then Eric and anything over $45 seemed like a million so Oh, yes. luck, you know, but but so what do people like, given that you don't see it happening to you? I mean, that's why my argument is, you know, just stop it from happening. You know, and but you know, shy of that being able to be your reality say you don't find a podcast that helps you manage your insulin. How do I like what are my signs if I because I'm assuming I'm, I'm hoping that a loved one sees this right?

Right. Yes. I mean, I know you know, I speak a lot from you know, the person who's living with diabetes can experience the you know, distress and burnout but obviously the caregiver, like yourself can too because it's it's constant. I think some of you know the the obvious signs would be You know, not doing some of the things that you used to do, like, for example, maybe your check it used to check frequently, and then now it's becoming less frequent. Or you're just maybe looking for signs that something might not be something is bothering you that you might not be feeling as, as hopeful in, in life in general. But also with, with your diabetes care you might be experiencing, you know, this is what a lot of younger, my younger clients will talk about, or experienced just the guilt and shame around the number. Because there is such a hyper focus on the numbers. You know, when I was first diagnosed, I went to a large Children's Hospital, and whenever I, they would take your a one see right there, it was just like from a finger stack, and then it would it would compute, and then they would apply your a one C to A letter grade. Oh, so this is this is in the, you know, the 90s, early 90s. And so if you were in the right zone, it was an A, if you were you know, eight to 10, you are a B or in higher. I mean, there were times where I remember I had like a D. And so talk about, you know, they're trying to encourage you to have a better grade. But that certainly started the turn of the course for me and having some shame based thinking around my numbers. And I hear a lot of clients talk about, you know, I don't want to check because I know it's going to be 350. So of course you don't, then you you're connecting that number to who you are as a person, how you're doing with your diabetes management. And so of course, you don't want to check it, or look at your CGM.

I'm fixated that one

battle spirals,

who the moron is that thought that that was would have been the way to go, you know, you know, we'll do we'll grade them. And the people are doing poorly, we'll give them really bad grades that should motivate them. I who, who thinks that way, but like, at least they could have rated you on like the popularity of Nirvana songs, like, you know, like, if you if you had like an 85 you were like, Teen Spirit. But you know, if you were more like, 120, you were paying royalty, and you know, it's somewhere in there, like, why not? Oh, my God, that's really terrible. Like how have we come so far in 30 years, the way we think about things,

and you know, and I am grateful, you know, I don't hold anything against them. But I think that's where we were, you know, kind of fear fear based. You know, if you don't check your blood sugar, if you have a D on your ANC, you're gonna experience all these complications. And so, I love like a lot of doctors and psychologists are, you know, trying to really focus on like, let's do evidence based hope and motivate people based on these the other numbers of if you keep yourself in, you know, good range, or you exemplify or show these kind of behaviors, you are going to live longer with, you know, and I can't pull the numbers out right now, but have a higher chance of not having any complications, as opposed to well, if you don't, you are going to have complications, right?

Is it possible that aspirational talk doesn't work on people whose blood sugars are elevated all the time? Or have incredible stress about, like getting low? Or something like that? Is it is it feel like a bridge too far to even hope?

I think that's where you want to get that get them to, but obviously, in the beginning, you might need to start smaller. For example, let's focus on you know, the behaviors the process instead of the outcome. And if you're a parent working with a child or a teenager, you know, they catch them being good. You're you're praising the behavior of Oh, my gosh, you know, thank you for checking your blood sugar, and not asking what the number is, you know, thank you for you know, bolusing. I know you. And I really like all your pro tips about the Pre-Bolus. And the timing of the Bolus is so crucial. And so praising them for or helping them around that piece, as opposed to what is your number now before we eat, what's your in the dish, the hyper focus on the numbers has to shift if you're trying to help somebody move away from that shame based thinking around your number and your agency, because that's where a lot because that's where you do need to focus on but at the same time, you need to take that piece away to help elevate a person's mood or distress.

I don't think about the numbers at all anymore. I think about an outlet. So my daughter has a dexcom CGM. So I'm lucky to be able to see a graph right but i just think about, like stability and maintaining the stability. To me, the rest of it doesn't matter carbs, you know, try to force the line up insulin tries to stop that. It's it's Kind of, I really I simplify it in my head, just you know, you know, you see a blood sugar that's darting up, you stop it, just stop it, you know. And once it's stopped, if you if you've over addressed it, then you know, fix that without it going back up again and learn from your next mistake, I think, you know, if you've overcorrected don't spend a lot of time hand wringing and saying to yourself, like, oh, I've messed it up again, like, you know, like, just look and go, Okay, well, look, this time I tried one one was too much, I'm going to try three quarters next time, I don't know, whatever, you know. And then you'll learn and build and learn and build. And before you know it, I just, I just saw a note today, in the I have a private Facebook group for this podcast, and a woman said, I came in, I was really desirous to just have success right away. And I almost just went right to the pro tips she's like, but instead I just went back to the beginning of the podcast, and I started listening over, she said, she was like, 40 episodes in, and she's already has an incredible improvement in health. And, and her ability to manage blood sugars. And I said this to somebody privately the other day, I said, I know that the podcast has 400 episodes at this point. But the truth is, in my opinion, you go back, listen to this podcast straight through, you're gonna have anyone seeing the low sixes, and it's not going to be tough to get to. And that's because there are so many little things about diabetes, that if you expect someone to sit in a doctor's office, or in a you know it or, and tell you about, that's not how it's going to happen. Like you have to hear it kind of slowly, you have to hear it as a building narrative, it takes a little time to take in the information. And after that, you know, you're on your way, like, so I like that you don't blame your doctors, but I'm gonna blame them for you a little bit. You don't have to, we don't teach people how to manage their insulin, we just tell them they have diabetes, and that carbs makes their blood sugar go up, and insulin makes their blood sugar go down. And then we're like good luck. And then they send them on their way. And then these little things that you're talking about, naturally pop up in life. And by the way, you don't just have diabetes, you also have a job or you go to school, you might be in a marriage that you're not happy with, you might be in a marriage you're really happy with, but there's a hole in your roof that you can't afford to fix, or any number of other obvious life things happen. While you're trying to figure this thing out, I've said over and over and over again, that I was able to come to these ideas. Partially because I was a stay at home dad, and I didn't have to get up and go to work every day. You know, I too many people are in that situation where it's basically they throw a patch on their diabetes and hope it holds till the next time they're able to look at it.

Right? Yeah, I mean, there's just it is a it is as they say, you know, the full time job that doesn't take a break. And I you reference that a lot. And I think it's upon all the other layers of life. It's exhausting. And I think one of the greatest gifts you can give to yourself as a person with diabetes or a caregiver is to be kind you know, you said don't don't wring your hands. Let's let the numbers be data for information for decision making in the future, but not a data point to say gosh, I really was terrible. I can't believe I didn't give myself enough insulin or Gosh, now I'm doing the diabetes roller coaster where I I was high and I overcorrected. Now I'm low, gosh, you know, then you get in your headspace. You know what I made a mistake. And that's okay. And I'm going to learn from this and move forward. As opposed to just ruminating in the number and the behavior that got you to that number.

And I think Additionally, you have to have the foresight to realize that you can't make a mistake. If you don't know what you're doing. You don't mean like that's, that's an interesting concept, because you feels like you made a mistake. But if no one taught you, are you making a mistake? Like, you're gonna be like, how can I make a mistake about something I have no knowledge of whatsoever the mistake is made in the entirety of how we do this, of how, from the moment you're diagnosed, until the moment someone lets you go, they tell you a lot of really important stuff. And not, I mean, you brought it up a second ago, and we kind of always just like, skip over it, but I have contact with a lot of people. The idea of Pre-Bolus thing, which is honestly the idea of understanding how insulin works, is not mentioned to most people when they leave with it's just it's fat. It'd be like talent, it would be like if I gave you a driver's license, it didn't tell you gas was flammable. You know, FYI, you know,

right, right.

You just got to the gas station. I feel it's leaking all over the place. No big deal. No one mentioned to me this was a problem. Like it just you need to understand how certain things work so that you can be thoughtful about using them. Uh huh. I see you're making me upset.

Oh, we you know, I thankfully there has been such a huge shift in trend with you know, the the American Diabetes Association has partnered with the American Psychological Association APA, the APA to recognize that there needs to be this focus on psychosocial care for people with diabetes, because the education piece that you are, you know, that you have done such a great job in broadcasting through your podcast is so crucial, combined with the psychosocial piece. And so I am grateful that there's been a big shift and and care for not only endocrinologist, but psychologists focusing in on that the emotional piece. Yeah, of what it's like that, you know, it's it's exhausting is the understatement, right?

It's just it's the tools, you have to have the right tools, or you can't, you just can't, you can't build your box if you don't have a hammer. And that's that. And it's not, it's not that much more difficult. And like you're saying the other side of it is, is that while you feel like you're constantly failing, and failing and failing, and you're not just failing, but your health is deteriorating, and you're starting to feel worse, and worse, yet, you don't notice it after a while. All these things are just, you know, they feel insurmountable. And I think possibly, and I'm not just saying this, because you're here, the only way most people are going to be able to climb out of this hole is with third party help somebody who can break it down for them and show it to them piece by piece, and then give them direction about how to how to manage

it? Well. Yes, I think there is, you do need first to be, you know, aware of the signs and symptoms. And actually, as I was praying to come speak with you today, I found this website, it's called diabetes distressed.org. And you can actually take a survey to kind of assess your degree of distress and it highlights you know, don't worry if your numbers are higher, you know, joined to really prevent No, there's no shame around having to stress, but to first like, let's just try and go be aware of where you are in your level of distress and then it gives some options of what what do you need, you need to talk with your healthcare provider? Do you need to seek additional help with a mental health provider? Do you need to become more clear with your family? have what you need? Do you need help and problem solving? Or do you need just more validation from your family? or your partner whoever is you know, in your, your immediate family support system? I think understanding where you are is the first step and then kind of figuring out how can you help yourself through that process and being kind and compassionate to yourself is also really key.

I think we should be deputizing sharpest diabetes Sherpas, I've just come up with this idea when you're talking because because you just said stuff that I could imagine a new blockade for every time we'll go to your doctor, what if my doctor sucks? You know, what if my doctor thinks a 7.8 a one sees great, like the and I don't think that or you know, and it's easy to to say to somebody like don't just see the number. But, but everybody's not great in a panic situation.

You're gonna be like, there's

there's certain people who, you know, there could be, you know, bombs going off around them, and they can stay focused on what they're doing. And there are certain people who hear the bombs and very reasonably jump on the ground and cover their head. So when when ever we can't count on everybody being so resilient in that moment.

Mm hmm.

You know, like they need somebody to take their hand and go Hey, look, you're in over your head. No big deal. Like it's that old story right? Like, guys down in the hole. his buddy walks by yells up Hey, Bill, can you give me a hand I'm stuck down in this hole and Bill jumps down in the hole with him. And the guy goes What are you doing like now we're both stuck down here and bogus. Now don't worry but down here before I know the way out like you need somebody who who can lead you out. And and I think that there's too many there are too many variables and and you're also counting on people to recognize which bucket they fit in. And then they have to go to the right person. Like you just need somebody to stop listen to your story and say, Okay, here's what you need my opinion. I'm going to try to get it to it and let me see if I can lead you forward. I've you've you've just given me a job for after the time when the podcast is over. I'm going to start diabetes shopping. And I think this is I think this is it because you don't need any special skills. Just to know the path that somebody else doesn't know and and is too confused too. find their way on at the, at the moment in their life that they find themselves in that situation.

Right? I mean, yes, oftentimes you have someone coming alongside them, helping them through the process and just validation that, you know, I understand that you are in such a challenging and difficult spot and and also feeling like they're not alone. I think that's, you know, with, particularly with type one, it's you can feel very isolated that no one really understands the challenges, the nuances, the you know, every thought, every minute, there's a different thought probably about it about your diabetes management. I agree. And that can feel so isolating. And so I think reaching out for help just for that, to know that you're not alone is also a really crucial step. Yeah.

No, I agree. Having some sort of community. I have to be honest, I've been shocked over the last number of years when people write to me privately to tell me that this podcast is their community. Even though they don't have a back and forth it's not a it's not a two way conversation. It's still everything they needed, was just knowing someone else existed in being able to listen to them.

Yes. And and not feeling like they're alone in the process. And I think that's, that's, you know, one of the benefits of technology and your and your podcast and all of that many resources that you can access online.

Yeah, no kidding. Okay, Sarika So, so somebody can come to this burnout phase, show up, find a therapist that understands diabetes, and hopefully find their way through it? Will the therapist help them with management to or no,

no, and that's, that's a great clarification. You know, even though I have type one, you know, and I sometimes feel like I'm an expert, not always with my own management, I'm not the expert of everyone else's own personal management. And so I oftentimes will consult and collaborate with their health provider, with their doctor with their end with their CD. And, but I would not make decisions or suggestions around their insulin management or carb ratios. I would come alongside them and help them maybe figure out a behavior plan with either the caregiver or depending on the age of the person with diabetes, and help support them in that way. And kind of finding what what are the roadblocks to implementing that behavior plan. And also, just as we talked about, just kind of the validation of the challenges of living with diabetes such

you've never, you've never leaned over the table, see the graph, I've been like you consider just up in your meal ratio a little bit?

No, that would definitely be out of my scope of competence and practice. So yeah, that would not be appropriate.

Well, good. Look at you, your principal person you Erica. So so let's look this is something I'd like to dig into this next thing that I'm constantly unarmored by which is I believe that when you're diagnosed with an illness, that is not it's not curable, that you go through the processes of grief. Am I right about that? Gee, voke hypo pain has no visible needle, and it's the first pre mixed auto injector of glucagon for very low blood sugar in adults and kids with diabetes, ages two and above. Not only is evoke hypo pen simple to administer, but it's simple to learn more about, all you have to do is go to G Volk, glucagon.com Ford slash juice box. g Vogue shouldn't be used in patients with insulinoma or pheochromocytoma. Visit G, Vogue glucagon.com, slash risk. Are you ready to ditch the daily injections or send your pump packing? If you are, it's time to try on the pod, the tubeless wireless continuous insulin management system. Here's all you have to do. Go to my Omni pod.com forward slash juice box, scroll down a little bit and decide do you want to check your eligibility for a free trial or check your insurance coverage to see if you're covered. Maybe you're already sold and you just want an omni pod, just click on my coverage. I want to check my coverage, then fill out a tiny bit of information and you're on your way. Now if you're just looking for the free, no obligation trial to be sent to you, check my eligibility for a free trial, fill out your information. And that Omni pod will show up right at your house so you can give it a whirl. It's just a demo pod. Don't worry. You put it on you where'd you see what's up and the questions are super easy. You know My name my date of birth, do I have type one or type two or another type of diabetes? And how do I currently manage it's very simple, only takes a moment to get that free, no obligation demo, or to get started with the Omni pod at my Omni pod.com forward slash juice box. You want to learn more about touched by type one, check them out on Facebook, or Instagram or at touched by type one.org. So wonderful organization helping people living with Type One Diabetes touched by type one.org my Omni pod.com forward slash juice box g Volk glucagon.com, forward slash juice box support the sponsors support the show. You go through the processes of grief. Am I right about that?

Absolutely. And I probably see the majority of my clients and families are mostly the newly diagnosed who are dealing kind of with the shock with the grief, kind of the the exploration of what what does this really mean for our family? It is it's a you know, it's a community that you don't really want to be a member of, but you're trying to figure out what how is this going to affect our daily lives and you know, some people, like for my, my family, for instance, I actually also have a younger brother with type one. Coincidentally, which, and I have an older sister who does not and no one else in my family have, we have no history of type one diabetes. So I had kind of that built in community with my brother, which was unique, but a lot of family. So you know, we're gonna, we're gonna fight through this, we're not going to let this affect us at all you can do all the things you want to do, we both played volleyball, he actually was this is my little brag spot, he was an Olympic gold medalist playing volleyball in Beijing. And so I just like to say that that you can do whatever you want to accomplish to us that you know, within the means of you managing it. So there are some families on that kind of end of the spectrum. And then there are other families who are really struggle and I it's understandable who, you know, how do we, how do I let my child go to school? And how do I trust other people to manage this, this is you know, thinking from a younger, aged person with diabetes, to a teenager who wants to go out or wants to drive. And now is kind of tat tasked with Well, you have to have your blood sugar in a certain range before you get to go out with your friends or drive your car. So it is such a huge shift, and obviously different with different layers and different complications based on the age. Yeah, but to answer your original question, yes, there is a huge sense of grief and loss around and sometimes it's just ambiguous loss. Like we don't we're not really sure what we're all at all that we know, we don't you don't really know, you know, everything no Sure, initially. And so there's this sense of like, ambiguous loss and grief. Yeah.

Is denial always first? Um, or not necessarily, I guess the the stage but by the way, I've also heard from some psychologists who say that they don't call it the stages of grief anymore. Like there's other ways to think about it. There's some thought processes where there are seven stages, five stages, two stages. So keeping in mind, there are different ways to think about it, but I can tell you like right off the bat, I know that I I personally experienced denial, and it popped up around a honeymooning situation. Yes, right. As soon as you didn't need insulin as much, or, you know, there was this, this may be 24 hours for my daughter just didn't seem to need insulin at all. I'm sure she still did. But I was such a neophyte at the time. Less seemed like none and I got I got caught up in it to the point where I called my friend who's my my kids, pediatrician, and I was I was coherent enough to say to him, I actually said, Hey, I'm gonna say something after I say, tell me I'm wrong and hang up the phone. You know, I said, but you know, most people can't talk to their kids doctors that way, but I happen to happens to be a very good friend of mine. And so I said, I don't think Arden has diabetes. She hasn't used that much insulin. And he said, No, Scott Arden definitely has type one diabetes. This could happen, you know, in the beginning, and he described honeymooning to me back then, but I was in such a state. I didn't even hear what he was saying. I just heard him say, Stop hoping she doesn't have it, you know. And that was pretty early on in the first six month or so. And I wasn't, I wasn't out of my mind enough to just be thinking it all the time. But the minute that something concrete happened that opened up the possibility I ran through that door, right away. Everybody goes through that. Do you think denial?

Oh, I, I would probably say I've and I can't say, you know, give a fact on that. But I would say a lot of people probably would kind of when you're, you're in shock, your denial, you're kind of trying to figure out what is this mean? Then there's this honeymoon period, which can last, you know, different lengths of time for different people. I think along with the denial, a lot of parents and my own included, feel guilt, or would rather say, Can I can I have this instead of my children? Or did I do anything to cause this? And so those are all really challenging feelings and thoughts to have. And so often, instead of kind of either expressing those or feeling those, and moving through them there is there can be that denial. But that's all part of Yeah, that the stages of grief and shock and like you said it, the stages of grief are not linear. They are cyclical. And so you can experience any of those stages at any point in time.

We're all like, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'll tell you that. I've seen. I've talked to people who, when they get to anger, they go a lot of different ways. It's, you hear, like, you know, I don't know how God can let this happen. Like, that's, that's one that I that I hear pretty frequently. Some people go take their anger and direct it right into domination. Like, we're going to support somebody who's going to cure this, we're going to find some, you know, a doctor who's working on something that you've never heard of before, like that anger gets, or I'm gonna keep my kids blood sugar at 84 constantly, and it's never going to move and they direct. I've seen them direct their anger at that as well. That could be exhausting, though. No.

Oh, for sure. And the anger could it could also go to the you know, the burnout of I'm so over this, I'm so angry. I'm I just don't want to think about it. And so I'm gonna just ignore it.

Okay, so could the anger like, kick, it could jump right to that, or just, I'm so mad at this, I'm gonna pretend doesn't exist, you could also be driving so hard to make it perfect that you end up burning yourself out through that?

Yeah, that was a that is an excellent point. Yeah, you can you can experience burnout from the other, like, I'm gonna just hyper focus on these numbers, I'm going to keep it in this perfect range. Yeah, you know, from 80 to 120. And keep it like, try to be a, quote, normal person. And that, as we know, is, is fairly impossible to do on a 24 hour, you know, 24 seven basis. And so you certainly can burn yourself out, particularly if you're the caregiver in that role. Because then that, that often leads to eat if you're going to be perfect, that often leads to feelings of guilt and shame. You know, like, how did I let it get to be 121? Yeah. And so it is, it can be a very messy cycle of trying to live in this, if anger is driving that trying to live in this perfect range. And that's where I would encourage, you know, the the self compassion piece to come in.

So do you. Can you, I should have said, Can you explain the bargaining step to me? Because it's, that's the one that doesn't make sense with how my brain works. Like, I like I I saw it happen. I feel like I feel like bargaining covers, this is my fault, because there are no issues in my family, like, my people, or they're the people who feel like if they would have gotten to a doctor sooner, there could have been something they could have done about it. Right. You know, or it's my fault. I didn't see something like that. Is that all kind of falls under the bargaining portion?

Yes. And I think it can happen fairly. It's common, particularly, you know, with parents, like I said, you know, bargaining like why can I have this instead of my child? And I think it happens because we often really don't know the initial trigger right to your pancreas not working the way it's supposed to. I think if we had a clear, you know, trigger and a clear explanation as to why the bargaining and the the either the guilt wouldn't happen as much I'm sure it would happen to certain degree because you still don't want your child living with a chronic illness. But that the confusion around the the actual diagnosis of Type One Diabetes is still very much You know, there. Yeah. And so we want it we always want to know why, like, how did something how Why did this happen? How could I have prevented it? Could I have done anything differently? Did I you know, do we use the wrong detergent? I mean, I hear all sorts of things that maybe it was because that my child broke their arm and their immune system was in shock. Or maybe it was because my child had the flu. You know, we, we want to always figure out the why. And we don't really know why with this. It's funny, I don't

care about the why, like, even when I talk about blood sugars with people, I tell them, one of the biggest mistakes you make is staring at a high blood sugar wondering how it happened. Like I don't like I don't care how it happened, just use some more insulin and get it down. And so the bargaining the bargaining part didn't like, to me bargaining is that it's your brains last vestige right? To keep it from feeling sad. Like, yeah, right, you're trying to you're trying to stop yourself from getting to the depression part to the, to the grief part. And, and so you keep trying to figure out a way where this doesn't have to feel sad, and there's no, I don't, there's no way not to feel sad about getting diabetes, like it just it's not a great thing to find out that one part of your body stopped working and isn't going to start working again, sucks, you know, but but I get why it happens. But I wonder if people listening, can't hear what we're talking about right now. And then go back to any number of other episodes and other people's stories that you hear. And realize that all of their stories are just some version of the steps that you feel after something like this happens these stages. You know what I mean?

Yes, and, and then, you know, getting to some people say, you know, the last stage of grief is acceptance. But as I, you know, when a highlight, you can, you can accept the diagnosis for a period of time, but it's okay to go back to periods of feeling sad, you know, I love to tell the story. I, I had a stint, I worked at the jdrf in San Francisco, many, many years ago. And there were a lot of type ones on staff there. And there was one particular woman who had had it for over 50 years in great health. And she, I think it was either once a month or a couple times a year, she would take I hate diabetes day, she would take a she would take the day off, she would lay in bed, she would she would feel all the feelings, she would feel sad, angry, and then move on. And so she kind of had this planned out to be like, you know what, I'm living with it, I'm living successfully with it, she had a very, you know, robust life. But she still had these moments and created these moments for herself to feel sad and angry about it. And that was, that was her way of kind of coping. And that's okay, so even she lived in kind of the moat, the majority of her life was the life of acceptance and thriving, but it's okay to compact to feel like, gosh, you know, we all have different seasons of life. And there are going to be more challenging ones with with your diabetes, particularly in as you're growing and going through different seasons, I've been in hormones and different life stages and different stressors. So it's, it's okay, yes, to

have those different emotions around it. So just because you got through the, the, the depression and grief state, and you got to acceptance, and you started thinking, Hey, you know what, it turns out, I figured out how to use my insulin and this sucks, but it's, you know, you know, everybody's it's like, Who's way better than this other thing that could have happened to me or, you know, whatever. So I'm feeling good about this. Now, um, I feel like I'm going a little more control of what's going on. And you start sort of just turning the corner, it doesn't mean that you can't remember one day that this sucks, if you don't just get the dislike, it's not the so it's for people's understanding, like the five stages of grief, I think is like an older idea. There's a seven stages of grief, that, that breaks things down a little differently, and is way more hopeful at the end where you kind of, you start putting things back together again, you're working through them, you accept what's going on, and you actually end up feeling very hopeful. And just because you feel hopeful today, doesn't mean that something won't that you know that your pump won't fail while you're on, you know, a roller coaster at Six Flags. And you won't be like, Oh, this is depressing. It's ruined my whole day like you can you're going to bounce in and out of these things as you go. And not just with diabetes, by the way, life in general. I don't know if people realize that. We're all very basic, like organisms, right? Like we just we sort of do the same things over and over again. And when we reapply them to different ideas, somehow we're like, oh, diabetes is sad. Well, everything is sad. At some point, you know, like I get depressed about things like everyone else has, the bigger issue ends up being for people who hit that depression, pothole. And for real, physiological reasons can't actually get out of it ever. Like everybody gets depressed sometimes, but most people are able to get through it, the people who aren't there now, now they've now found a new another new issue that they need to deal with.

Yes, yes. And I think that's, it's important to note that, you know, when we're talking about diabetes distress, it's, you might experience a certain level of distress at certain points throughout your, you know, career with with diabetes, and that's okay. I think the, the important part is to be aware of when you feel like, as you just were describing, you know, when did stress becomes, you can, you can have diabetes, of stress and struggle with the elements of living with diabetes and not be depressed, because maybe you're functioning in other areas of your life, or your job, your, your family life, your friendships. If you're an athlete, you know, it's, it can be different. But when it becomes when diabetes distress is prolonged, and you aren't able to either recognize symptoms, or reach out for help, or have community around you, that can, you know, it can transition into, you know, a full blown depression, diagnosis. And I think that's, that's what we're trying to prevent, you know, before it kind of impacts and impairs all of your levels of functioning,

are there just some people who are predisposed? And eventually they're going to have a turn in their life that is so impactful, that they're going to become depressed? Like it like that it's always going to happen.

But that's, that's a great question. I feel like could be almost another another episode, I feel like you're asking like are people are people predisposed to having depressed thoughts or experiencing depression?

The same idea with diabetes, like if you have the markers, the genetic markers for type one diabetes, then your likelihood of getting it goes up. And if this happens, and that happens, and everything just kind of goes wrong for you, boom, you have type one diabetes, there are other people who have those markers, who never end up with type one. And so I'm assuming there are people who have markers for depression that they're unaware of. And then if they have life, circumstances that push them in that direction, that they're more likely to get caught in a real depression than other people are, because I've had some fairly terrible things happen to me in my life. But I've never had long bouts of depression. And there are other people who have had things happen to them that you know, are equal to mine, or less or more, who gets stuck in it for ever. And so my assumption is that, I don't know. Do you understand what my assumption is? Yes,

yeah. Yeah. Are you are you kind of more prone to either depressed thinking or experiencing depression? because of certain genetic markers? I would say? Yes, that that is certainly does exist. But there's also the other components of life like the, your, your resiliency, you the people around you, the support that you have, I think is really crucial. If you are experiencing a, you know, a triggering event that might lead to depressed thinking or symptoms, or clinical depression, the the capacity for you to reach out for help. And are those all due to genetic markers? Maybe are those due to the fact that maybe your the community around you can support you or not? There are a lot of different I'd say factors around that. But yeah, it's a it's a both it's Yes. Both? And to answer your question,

do you think that people so people who maybe know, in the past that they've had trouble or gotten stuck for longer times, then maybe feels what they see normal around them? If something like this happens to them? Should they be running right to a therapist? Should they be should they literally like, leave the hospital and go and call the therapist and be like, hey, look, my kid was just diagnosed with Type One Diabetes, I got a feeling this isn't gonna go Well, for me, like, let's start now because I've interviewed people who have like, I just did an interview the other day, that will be out in a little bit where, you know, this, this woman describes an incredibly happy life. And then at one point, she felt suicidal and said she had never felt that way ever. And it was after a diagnosis for a child. And, and then, you know, just as you described to had had a spouse with her, that was able to, you know, kind of keeper focused as this thing had hold of her and it took a very long time for her to get through it, but she luckily had somebody with her in that moment. You know, she could by herself, I just feel like, you know, what if she was a single parent, or didn't have a lot of family around her, like, how do you? How do you make that decision to get help when getting help? Seems like another failure?

Right, right, or just another problem. Another problem, another thing to do, and maybe if you are in, you know, at an extreme level, experiencing extreme levels of depression, you know, it's hard to motivate to do anything. Yeah. And I think if, if we're talking about this, within that scope of diabetes, I mean, hopefully, because there has been such a shift, and a trend in, in our medical health providers, or health care providers to be more aware of the psychosocial symptoms for not only the person with diabetes, but also for the caregivers, that they would be assessing, you know, both both parties, at their level of their psychosocial care, their mental health. And so my, my hope would be that, that would be the starting point, you know, whether you're, you're coming in for your, your checkup, or you're bringing your child in for a checkup that they would be asking those questions. And if not, that you would be able to tell them, you know, how you're doing? And your question is, what if it becomes to a place where you feel like you can't reach out for help? I think that's where it may be reaching out for a mental health support is too much. Maybe exploring in sites like your like your podcast, you know, realizing that I think depression likes to tell the person that they are alone in that. And that becomes isolating, and it feels really scary to be in that state of mind. And so recognizing that you're not alone in that, and if it just means listening to your podcast, if it means going on a different website. jdrf just had their their summit, and there's a lot of great resources on their website from their summit this over the summer.

Oracle, what was wrong with the idea of listening to the podcast? What are you doing driving people? What are you doing? I'm just kidding. Wherever you can find help. I'm happy for you to find it. Well, okay, so I know we're up on an hour. Do you have a little time beyond the hour if I drag you past it? Or you have a heart out?

Um, I have. I have a little bit extra time. Yes. Okay.

So I have one more question. As a real simple thing real quick. Is it true, I was told this at my daughter's diagnosis that the that in America, one in two marriages end in divorce, but when you have a critically or chronically ill child, excuse me, it goes to two and three?

Well, I don't I don't, I can't back that. But

is it more likely you're gonna get divorced if your kid gets sick?

Gosh, I hope not. No, but I think like any other major stressor will be at financial or, you know, JOB, JOB insecurity. And that's chronic, you know, any other chronic stressor in a marriage is, is a challenge. But I think the important pieces, and I think you mentioned this in one of your podcasts that, you know, if one parent is the sole caregiver for the person, for the child with diabetes, that's, that's there's going to lead to burnout and maybe some feelings of resentment, unless that's already established. And you've communicated that. And that's the way you all want it to be, which would be hard to believe if that's if but if that's how your family setup works, then that's great. But I think the communication piece is so key and understanding without a sum without assuming, okay, well, you know, mom's at home, so she's going to take care of Bobby, or vice versa, like in your case. And so I think if there's the communication around that, that would help prevent issues of resentment.

Oh, it's really easy to be like, Look, I'm doing everything and you're doing nothing. And, you know, because you cuz especially in the beginning, if you don't know what you're doing, it's already mind numbing. And then you start having that feeling like you're killing the person because you can't figure out how to use the insulin. That's an added thing, then you feel like you're alone and you're by yourself and no one's helping you. And then when your spouse acts like, Oh, that's your job. You're like, oh, wait a second. You know, like, I would love help, but it's also not reasonable like my wife and I came to the conclusion that it needed to be one of us, because as we tried to pass it back and forth, we would just we found it impossible because we found ourselves having to, like you know, recount everything that had happened. Like the nine hours prior, like, okay, so for breakfast, you know, it's six o'clock at night and you're telling someone who just got home from work, I breakfast this happen, we use this much, and it happened and bla bla bla bla, and then at lunch and then this and that you feel like you have to you feel like a nurse passing off to another nurse. Right? And so one day we were like, Alright, look, I'm gonna take care of it, we won't pass it back and forth, because this wasn't working for us. And so I don't feel any, like, bad feelings around the fact that it's, it's more me than it is her. But how did it just happen that way? Had she just like buried her head or like, you know, turned her back on me and started kicking up the ground. Like she found something interesting. While I was doing diabetes, I would have been angry, like, quite right, you know?

Right. So yeah, you guys had that kind of pre determined role and responsibility set. And I think that's, that's key, you know, a lot of a lot of arguments or misunderstandings in just in marriages in general is without, you know, the assuming things, feeling like someone's someone has responsibility to do something when maybe it's a joint responsibility. So I think that's, that's great that you guys had that opportunity to have that conversation and agreement. Eric, I'm

gonna ask you to generalize, then you're gonna tell me you're not going to, but it's not going to stop me from asking, okay, I've realized You're too professional. And you're on the ball. By the way, you must be really good at what you do. Because I talk in big word pictures. And you remember my question and come back to it afterwards, which I find incredibly impressive. I don't hear you're making think so. Well done. But look at me. I'm just like, I'm so impressed by that. Well, thank No, seriously. But here, here's my here's my statement that I'm going to ask you to agree with or tell me that I'm wrong. Boys are boys, and then they grow up and become men, and then they marry people. And then they're not as much help as the women just say it right? Like weak women are more generally speaking, focused. And familial, and guys are more like I made money already. Let me get to my PlayStation like that kind of like, Is that true? I know, there are some men who aren't I'm obviously one of those men who isn't like that. But for the most part, if we were just going to generalize, women are screwed, right? Go ahead set.

Well, I'm curious, I'm curious as to where where you're going with this,

I grew up in a blue collar world where men did not get involved in family. Uh huh. And then, and it all seems to be like this, you know, quiet agreement that people come to in their marriages, I do this, he does that he does this, I do that blah, blah, blah. And it all kind of works out. And the resentment is quiet takes decades to build. But then when you bring in the diabetes, real quick, everything gets jacked up. And now suddenly, he's not just ignoring the fact that the Christmas decorations need to go back in the basement. He's ignoring the fact that your kids blood sugar's 250. And now, and now what ends up happening is this goes from a thing that I find irritating because the house is a little bit of a mess, or we haven't fixed the hole on the roof or something like that, too. We're killing our kid and you don't seem to care. And then it has been my, my experience. And what I've witnessed from other people, is that women appear to have a genetic component to them that once they give birth to a child, they care very much about that child, and a lot less about everybody else who is not that child. So now you suddenly went from being like my boyfriend who became my husband becoming this guy who doesn't care about this 250 blood sugar, and now you're a danger. And am I wrong about all that? Like, that's just how I see people?

Yeah, well, I think, you know, I, you're right, I'm not gonna generalize, because you wouldn't be as you're a professional. I because, you know, look, look at you. Okay, some point, I think there are families who create different structures for them within themselves. I think the issues that you are, like the example that you just gave, occurs, when there's not there's no communication, and that now they've gotten they've just kind of, you know, the partners have been set in their ways. And for better or for worse, and then when a when a major stressor occurs, such as a diagnosis, the, the rhythms and routines can become obviously troubling, but then then it's exactly exacerbated because now we're talking about our child who it's it feels life or death, you know, to manage their diabetes care. Yeah. And so if there's already this built in resentment that I'm doing, I'm doing x but you're doing y, but now you're not helping me with my child with our child. That creates obviously a major conflict And so I would, I would encourage people to, you know, what, what you have modeled and just explained within your family system, every family system is different. And while you know, there, there might be stereotypes of what the male or female or different partners do. It doesn't really matter when it comes down to your child who's living with diabetes, to get really clear with who was doing what, and what does that look like on a daily basis? Because if it's not clearly communicated and understood, then that resentment and that burnout is going to happen for the caregiver. And then you know, who knows what's happening for the child with the diabetes?

Allow me now to argue the other side of it? Because really, did I believe what I said? Or was I just painting a picture, okay, and now, so here's the next side of it, right? You can get into a situation where, hey, you one person are in charge of the kids, you make decisions like this, I'm not involved, I haven't been involved in two years, three years, four years, five years, I feel out of the loop, you seem to be doing such a good job with the diabetes, this is a scary thing. I don't know anything about it. I'm very afraid to mess it up. So I think that there can be a time where one of the spouses looks disengaged, but is really just frightened out of their mind. Yeah, but doesn't have the extra problem of being the person with the kid. So they get to walk away from it. Whereas you are frightened out of your mind. But you're stuck there making the decision. So you figure something out, tried, it doesn't work, try something else, this works. Now you're going through trial and error on your side, the other person's not going through that. And because of that, they can feel more like, hey, maybe I should stay out of this. I think there are plenty of people who heard me say the first thing that I said and thought, yeah, that's right, my husband or wife is is an apple, and they don't help me with this, and blah, blah, blah. But I also think that that person could have heard it and thought I just don't want to mess this up. And it seems really important, and I don't know what I'm doing. I think that there's a misunderstanding, almost constantly between married people, like I think we mischaracterize each other almost constantly. Do you think that's true? You talk to married people? Do people not really understand each other?

Well, I think not not consistently, but I think there are moments or events, or going back to you notice any stressor that might challenge our, our understanding of one another of what the you know, relationship looks like? I think, you know, I'd be curious and, you know, I have seen couples who are, you know, we I'm working with it with the child with diabetes, but also the couple who are are struggling with that dynamic of, well, you know, she takes care of the house and I and I do the diabetes, or vice versa. Or, you know, whatever, whatever role is defined for each person. But then there's that the fear of not knowing or maybe the other person is feeling like the partners passive in the in the children's care, diabetes care. So it all goes back to what are what is everyone feeling in the moment? Let's communicate around that. I mean, I'm curious if you do have check in times with your wife like, does she want to, to be more a part of the care

or you better know if she's mad money making money, Erica, she better not lift her head up, I need her working your stand. She's not allowed to look up, she's allowed to eat, use the bathroom twice and work. That's it. That's her job. Now I know, we are we, when when life allows. we bump into each other and fill each other end, when that really ends up being how it goes. I would love to tell you that I have a specific time for it. But that's not reasonable. You know, sometimes it's before bed, which by the way completely kills the idea of having sex when you're like, oh, the kids are having trouble with school and blah, blah, and you're just like, I'm gonna go to bed now. That we're you know, like, we'll stop. I have to be honest, because of COVID. We're around each other more often. We just had a conversation before I jumped on with you about something that would not have happened before. And I'm going to tell you from my experience, these little like pitstops are super important because once they get to build up, your conversations turn into this mishmash of like you blurting out a bunch of stuff you meant to say her trying to respond she blurting out a bunch of stuff she meant to say you try and respond. I've never seen one of those conversations go well in my life. But you know, like you have to everyone smile, stop and say, Hey, did you see that this happened? Or that you know, college said that they're going to go back but this that doesn't seem right. Maybe we should figure something else out because keep people thinking about things over time. They're To me, it's just a constant conversation. Yes. And it's yes doesn't always go great. It's just the best you can do. The problem with managing a life is that you're trying to live one at the same time. Yes, there's two competing things happening in every second of your day.

Yes, and I think sometimes for the caregiver, you know, the caregiver just might need some validation to I think it's important, just like we're asking, I would ask the person with diabetes to ask for what they need, do they need some more problem solving? Or do they need some validation? I mean, those aren't the only two things you could be asking for. But those are kind of the main points. And just like, you know, apply those same ideas to the caregiver, does the caregiver needs some more problem solving around how to manage your child's diabetes? Or are they just wanting some validation of like, Wow, it must be really hard to really monitor you know, Bobby's blood sugar's while also trying to do all the things you want to do for your own life. That must be really, really challenging. And thank you so much for doing that. I mean, I think, like, basic validation, and gratitude goes a long way. But to be to ask for what you need as a caregiver, and also for the person with diabetes if you're able,

and this goes for being married in general, right, like, because I think that I think that overall, people think there's two ways that marriages end either you just get sick of each other, and you go your separate ways, or you give up and die. And that's not those shouldn't be the two basically conceived endings of how marriage go.

And

I think there's a way to realize that there, you're shooting for a long time, that there are going to be good days and bad days, good weeks, and bad weeks, good months and bad months, good years and bad years. Like I once told my wife when we were first married, she's like, what's your expectation for all this? I said, Well, listen, if we stay married our whole life, it'll end up being maybe about 40 years, if we're lucky. I think if we have, you know, 10 really great years and 10 Okay, years and five years, it sucked in five years that weren't too bad. that'll probably be pretty good. You know, like, like, I mean, I think that a striving for perfection constantly, is a bit of a fool's errand. And it really just leaves you more let down than fulfilled. I think there's Yes, you know, what I mean, like, everything can't be perfect all the time.

That's exactly and it leads to the thinking of, you know, I'm I'm not a good enough. You know, parent, I'm not a good enough caregiver. I'm not a good enough partner, spouse. And so yes, the the validation, the gratitude and the self compassion are our key. Yeah. to kind of get through the long haul of diabetes when they're in a family system for sure. Right.

Yeah. Once you've heard my stories, 800,000 times, there's got to be something else that makes you go, I'd still be okay, waking up tomorrow, if he was here. And like that, you know, and I think what you just said is really important is that we're all just, I mean, listen, I can be completely honest, I need validation, just like everybody else does. I know, I'm doing a good job. But if the people I'm working so hard for don't appear to care, then what's the point of it? You know what I mean? And they can you can feel like that at some point, like, nobody seems to care. And I get that, you know, nobody's gonna run around telling you, I really appreciate my laundry being clean. You know, and I'm not looking for that. I'm not looking for someone to come up to me every five minutes. But there's a moment where, you know, Arden has Chinese food going into a donut and I don't let her blood sugar go over 110 where it would be cool. If someone would look over and be like, Damn, you're good at that. I'm

like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll

say that. I'll say that. That's really impressive. Erica,

put your ABC right in the fives. No trouble you come over here. I really appreciate you doing this. I this conversation was everything I hoped it would be. And I'm hoping you might decide to come back on more than once because I think there's a lot more to talk about in this was great.

Oh, wonderful. I would love to thank you. I really I really enjoyed it as well.

A huge thank you to one of today's sponsors, g Volk, glucagon, find out more about chivo Kibo pen at G Vogue glucagon.com forward slash juice box, you spell that GVO ke GLUC AG o n.com forward slash juice box. Don't forget you can get your free no obligation demo of the Omni pod tubeless insulin pump at my Omni pod.com forward slash juice box and learn more about touched by type one at touched by type one.org or on their Facebook or Instagram pages. If you're listening in a podcast app Please press subscribe, and if the show has been valuable to you, please share it with someone else. Have a great day. I'll be back very soon with another episode of the Juicebox Podcast. You can learn more about Erica at Erica forsyth.com er ik a fo rsyth.com

Friends, you're listening to Episode 445 of the Juicebox Podcast. Hey, guess who's back on the show everyone? It's Erica forsyte. You might remember Erika from back in November on episode 407, where she and I spoke about burnout, emotions surrounding diagnosis and dealing with diabetes distress and constructive ways to prevent it from impairing function. Today, Erica is back. And we're gonna focus a little more on supporting the people who are supporting people with type one diabetes. I just loved her the first time she was on, and we decided there were some more topics that we could dig into. While you're listening, please remember that nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise, please always consult a physician before making any changes to your health care plan, or becoming bold with insulin. This episode of The Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by the Omni pod tubeless insulin pump, please go to my Omni pod.com Ford slash juice box to find out more about the Omni pod and to see if you can get a free no obligation demo sent directly to you. Spoiler alert, you can just go to the site, Miami pod.com Ford slash juicebox. Get that demo out to you today. The show is also sponsored by the Dexcom g six continuous glucose monitor. You can get started with that Dexcom G six@dexcom.com. forward slash juicebox. There's links in the show notes of your podcast player links at Juicebox Podcast COMM And you can just type the words into our browser. If you can remember them. My on the pot, you could do it. Here's Erica, I really enjoyed when you're on the first time and I thought oh, this would be great. And then you had you know, we were like, well, maybe we can do these other ideas. Oh, this is terrific. And then you kind of like disappeared but it felt very anti your personality sounds like something happened to that person. And then so you had surgery. Do you mind people knowing this?

Oh, no. Well, I it's a another long strike. By the way. I'm using a different headset is our sound okay? You sound good?

Yeah, you sound fine to me. Can you hear me?

Okay? Okay. Yeah, I can't. Yes, well, it's, you know, life still happens even when you have diabetes, as you know. And so I've had some knee chronic knee issues, multiple surgeries, and I re injured it. I think shortly after we had our last podcast, and so had to deal with I haven't had surgery yet, but it is coming.

I hope it goes well for you.

A full full knee replacement is in my future that just got to figure out the right timing with

my life.

Wow, that's a I've seen some people go through it from a distance recently. And, you know, I think the it's just the way you would expect as far as I know, like the you know, the earlier in life you do it, probably the easier it's gonna go. The beginning is not quite as much fun as the end is. And then when it's over, they're like, Huh, I can't believe how well this works. So

yes, yes, that is that is the hope for the you know, the end game.

I like how you said, even though you have diabetes, other stuff goes wrong, it really does feel sometimes when you're like something else happened to like, don't we like isn't there a limit to how much you get? And there's not

you know, it's, it's so true. But yesterday, I was talking with my husband and kind of talking and preparing it for this Ark next conversation and I got a paper cut. It's like, come on, you know, sometimes there's just there's you there's there's the diabetes, and then there's still other issues that could happen to your body physically, emotionally, and then you can get a paper cut and it could like set you over the edge. I mean, thankfully it did it for me yesterday, but I know it has in the past. Yeah. And that's totally normal.

I just it's there's that, you know, just when other things happen. You're just like, I feel like everyone should get a certain amount of stuff and I've got my Yes, you know,

I've got my fair share.

If you hit us it's almost like looking at the waiter when they come around with water and you're like, No, no, you just you just got us. Thanks. We're good.

We're full.

Can you keep your problems over there, please. We have our own

My name is Erica forsyte. I am a type one diabetic, we'll be almost 31 years living with diabetes this summer, I was 12 when I was diagnosed. And I also have a younger brother with type one, but nobody else in my family has been diagnosed with it. I am a licensed Marriage and Family Therapist and I work as a school counselor, but also have a private practice specializing in supporting people of all ages and their caregivers. living with diabetes from diagnosis. Onward, as we know, it doesn't just end or start or end at the point of diagnosis.

Let me ask you a question about because this comes up a lot recently, and I don't know the answer. People find therapy online now more than ever, I guess. Yes, it is the the therapist you find need to be in the same state that you live in for insurance reasons.

Yes, you know, and I have had some people reach out from other states as a result of our first podcast, and I'm so grateful for that. I am, I'm in California, and I'm licensed in California, and I'm insured in California. And but now that we're all doing telehealth, it would feel like that would be a really easy and convenient way to meet people people's needs nationwide. But I have I am trying to figure out if there's a way that I can be insured nationwide and or licensed that I don't think that exists quite yet. But that sure would be lovely. Or will California

still a pretty big place. So if you're hearing it is today, and you want to reach out to her and you live in California for the moment, how do they get ahold of you?

I have a website. Thank you for asking. It's Erica forsyth.com erkfrsyth.com.

Thank you. Listen, I don't think it's any, it won't come to any surprise to people that heard you the first time, I felt like we had a really nice, easy back and forth. You know, as the person who gets to make the judgments on the on the people who come onto the show, I just felt really, you know, we vibe well together. And you really felt like you had a very kind of calm grasp of what you were talking about. And you had a couple of other topics you wanted to hit up. So you're back to do more. Can we start with supporting caregivers who have people?

Yes, I was thinking that we could do that first. Because as I you know, meet with different clients, families, you know, caregivers are often reaching out to me for either support for themselves, but usually, you know how to support their children living with it, but often I find that, you know, caregivers need their own individual support, as well. And I think there's the larger group of, you know, being a caregiver of someone with type one. But then I think there's even smaller subgroups within that category of parents who have who have children are diagnosed in infancy, or in elementary age years. And then there's the parents who have children who are diagnosed in their teen years, which we can talk about, because that's a whole kind of beast in and of itself. And then kind of the aging out right, from Teen to early adulthood. So yes, I mean, I think we definitely could start with you know, how to think about living as a caregiver. With with this diagnosis,

I've been corresponding with somebody who's obviously information, I'll keep private for like a year now. And they're the parent of a teen. And things were, you know, the, the team wasn't taking it all that seriously, at least not as seriously as the parent was taking it. And that parent told me that eventually, they had to seek out like therapy for themselves. And then it came to a head and, and this person, just one time one, I just eventually just couldn't take it anymore and said to the kid, like, you know, diabetes is gonna kill me before it kills you. And I wonder how, how common that feeling is because it felt like I could understand what she was saying in the email. So what is the difference between being dying having your child diagnosed at a younger age versus other ages?

Well, I think the the first kind of the answer would be well, in terms of how much control and authority you have over your child and just developmentally, where your child is, are they able to, are they completely dependent on you, as you know, as obviously an infant your younger child that they are unable to eat? They're manage their diabetes care from you know, whether you're doing finger pricks or CGM management, wearing a pump or not. If your child is younger, I would say, you know, this is rough guesstimate around maybe eight, or younger, or maybe even seven or eight or younger than you are probably managing it as the primary caregiver completely. From whether that includes, you know, reordering the supplies and changing out the sights, as well as the day to day, you know, management. And then as you're getting into maybe early as Elementary, or older, I guess, like nine, I would say to 12, eight or nine to 12, maybe they're taking on more or showing some levels of interest and wanting to be independent in some areas, whether it's checking their own blood sugar, or having a discussion with you around carbs. And then obviously, into, you know, preteen and teen where just naturally they are wanting to be more autonomous, more independent. And if you take remove diabetes, from the equation, they're, you know, just teenage years, they're wanting to make their own choices, feel that sense of independence. And then there's that pushback, right with teenage years of if they are showing signs of wanting to rebel, then that often translates into I don't want to take care of my diabetes, or I want to fit in, you know, in preteen teenage years, children are wanting to fit in with their peers be like their peers do with their peers can do. And as we know, you can do that to a certain extent, with diabetes. But oftentimes, it might look like ignoring like, I'm going to have this baggage check chips or this candy bar at the movies with my friends. I don't want to have to either leave to inject or take my blood sugar or pull out my pump, it's going to make all these lights or look at my CGM. So I'm just going to ignore that because I want to fit in. So this is kind of just as a summary, I'd say of what it might look like, as the child with diabetes, but then also, how do you how do you manage that, as the caregiver is challenging on different levels? And

how does it impact you to as the as a person, just, you know, I say all the time, and nobody. It's interesting, isn't it? Like, if you look at the world as a whole, the likelihood of you being born living and dying without having some sort of a medical issue is almost completely uncommon like it, you know, and that happens to very few people. But no one makes a baby and thinks, hey, I bet you when you know, let's do this baby thing, and I bet you when it's three, its pancreas will stop working. And then we'll just take care of that or when it's 12, or I bet you when it's 20, its thyroid won't work anymore, or you like you, you have no preparation for that whatsoever. And we see it as uncommon and burdensome, when maybe we really should think of it is expected to some level, you know, some something happening should be expected, but it's not how you feel. So is that different? When a child's younger? Do you get that feeling of like you didn't get what you were promised?

Oh, yeah, that's a great question. I, I from I mean, I think from just speaking from also my parents perspective, having two children, you know, diagnosed when they were older, but then from from clients that I work with, there's that I think that immediate sense of loss, right? Because maybe when it's if you're a slightly older, say eight or 10, you have some of those like prime years of, of, quote, enjoyment, right without having to think about this extra layer of management. And so I would say, yeah, that's definitely, gosh, we're out of the gates that my child's one or two, and he's barely talking or walking, and now we have to deal with this extra layer. And so I'd say probably even a stronger, maybe shock, grief loss. And, you know, all the all of the emotions of grief. Yeah,

on top of that, I expect that the you start prognosticating that there's going to be some sort of a loss for the child in the future. You know, the funny thing is, too, if you understand how to manage your diabetes reasonably, I don't think there's that much of a loss. You know, you mean like you're a person who has diabetes, there's things you have to do, it's obviously sucks. And it's but if you could take a long look at it, and I guess I'm in a unique perspective, where I've spoken to so many people at every age, you know, right into their 60s. That what I would tell you is that overall that yeah, I mean, I don't know if it's a coin flip or not like if you're just the kind of person who does well with you know, stuff that comes up or you're not but most people deal okay with it when they don't do well. It's because It generally ends up being because they've been given very bad tools or bad support, or something like that. But the people who, you know, learned how to use their insulin or figured out how to eat that worked for their lifestyle, had somebody helping them along the way, those people generally live full lives, you know, like, we don't, we're not in that part of diabetes anymore, where people just die when they're 40. Because they have type one in less, you know, something significantly lacking in their in their care, or, you know, I mean, let's just say like they're some people just hit the genetic, you know, dumpster fire lottery, and then that obviously can happen. So if I'm a parent, I come into you and I say, hey, I've got my little one year old, two year old 567 year old has diabetes, they're completely dependent on me. And I can't take it. Like, how do you how do you help a parent in that situation? The Dexcom g six continuous glucose monitoring system helps you make better diabetes treatment and diabetes management decisions with zero finger sticks, and no calibrations. 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And it comes from the Dexcom you're gonna just you're gonna love it. I think it's my opinion. But I mean, if he didn't care about my opinion, you probably wouldn't be listening to the podcast. So I'd check it out. dexcom.com forward slash juicebox no pressure, just go take a look. Next thing I think you should do, go to Miami pod.com forward slash juicebox. To find out more to learn more about the Omni pod tubeless insulin pump. And if you're a longtime listen to this podcast, you're always hearing me say go to my Omni pod comm forward slash juice box Get yourself a free, no obligation non working demo of the Omni pod today. So you can try it on and wear it you know the whole thing, right? But guess what else you might find out about it the link? It's possible you could be eligible for a free 30 day trial of the Omnipod dash. While Why did I say a free 30 day trial? I did? I did. You might just get a demo, you might get a 30 day trial. Yeah, gotta head over and find out who's who you know, I mean, who are you in this fight? There's it's easy like you get there. Like, I just want to check my eligibility or my coverage you put in a little Do you type your name? What kind of diabetes do I have? Do I have type one do I have type to some other kind? What's my current treatment plan, male female date of birth, phone number, blah, blah, blah, I certify that I'm 18 years, it's gonna take you 20 seconds, click to go to page two, you're almost done. The next thing you know about a bing bada boom, you're finding out about your eligibility. Maybe you're getting a free, no obligation demo that you can try on and wear for yourself. Maybe you're getting a free 30 day trial of the dash, the Omnipod dash for 30 days for free. You gotta go find out right now my Omni pod.com forward slash juicebox dexcom.com forward slash juicebox. And because I've got some music left. Why are you not a T one d exchange.org. forward slash juicebox. Right now, do it. Get over there. Get on there. Do your thing. You answer a couple of questions. You're helping people with type one diabetes and research you're helping research research. Right there from your couch from your phone from your laptop. You don't have to go to a doctor. There's nothing to do. It's completely HIPAA compliant. You're helping people with type one diabetes, take you 10 minutes tops. It's anonymous. T one d exchange.org. forward slash Juicebox Podcast comm forward slash juicebox dexcom.com forward slash juicebox links in your show notes links to Juicebox Podcast comm Here comes Erica. That was a lot sorry, here we go. How do you help a parent in that situation?

Well, first of all, I think it's if we were pulled back A little bit like when you diabetes diagnosed, this inserts itself into, you know, quote, pre existing conditions. And I know we think about that like as a medical term, but you as a family unit or if you're a single parent, single caregiver, you there are already issues going on in your life, right. There might be marital stressors, there might be job or financial stressors, it might you might be diagnosed in the middle of a pandemic, there might be other concerns with if you have other children, the sibling dynamics, you might have either really successful solid, healthy family communication patterns or or not. And so, upon diagnosis, all of those things that have been with you either individually as a person in your own health journey, as well as your family, are still there, right upon a diagnosis. And so sometimes we would like to think that, that Oh, my gosh, my child is diagnosed. And now all of my other, you know, challenges or concerns are gonna fall to the wayside, but they don't, and they creep back in, immediately upon diagnosis, maybe all of the focus is on there, and you're surviving out of adrenalin and shock. And you're pouring all of your resources and time and energy into that into your child. But slowly, all of those other, you know, quote, pre existing conditions or challenges that you have been dealing with kind of reemerge. And I think that, you know, as a caregiver, your child does look to you, and how to respond to this diagnosis. And, and it's okay, if you're struggling, right, because your child may take it all in stride, I mean, it particularly mean a one or two year old, the child doesn't really know essentially, what's happening, and that's going to that child is that's going to be normal as the child grows up, right. For an older child, they might not think it's anything different. They might have seen other friends with CGM on their arms, or you know that the stigma around all of that is definitely thankfully going down. And the hardest part might be coming to terms with your own feelings about it as a caregiver, about, you know, thinking, gosh, what does this mean for my child is my child going to not be able to do all of the things that I had envisioned? for them? I think I shared you know, thankfully, things have changed dramatically in 30 years. But when I was diagnosed, the doctors told my parents like, she might not be able to play sports, and I ended up playing collegiate volleyball, she might not be able to have children. And so there, I think there was a time when there was that sense of loss and despair for your child that you were grieving for them. And for yourself as the parent, thankfully, the messaging and the data has shifted. I have had two healthy children. And I was able to do those things. And because of now all of the new, you know, the new science and the new products on the market, you can even live a healthier life than I did 30 years ago, as a child, and preteen and teen. So anyway, go back to your question, parent comes in there one or two year old has been diagnosed, I would first allow them the space to grieve like what, what are they they probably are having that sense of loss, I had expectations of having a healthy child that might not live in it and Wiggins as we know, you can be healthy with type one. But without living with a chronic illness, they might have to deal with and have questions about what are some myths that they've heard? Right? Is my child going to be blind? Are they going to lose a limb are they not going to be able to do X, Y, or Z. So dispelling some myths might be something that we would do. And so just give first, initially, just giving them some space to grieve.

I see, I see online when people just want to see an athlete, a professional athlete who has type one diabetes, because that seems like the gold standard of moving around, and they're doing it so good. That's a great feeling. I if that person could do it, then somebody else could do it. It does seem to be a lot of fact finding and, you know, backing up your fears with stuff that makes that alleviates them or tries to support problems you're having. But what happens if you're if you're the adult, and you're a person who just doesn't have any more bandwidth, or their coping skills, aren't, you know, gonna gonna lend to this situation? Do you just pick something in your life and, and eliminate it like do you or do you just go okay, I used to, I don't know, I used to sew purses in my spare time, but I don't do that anymore. You know, like Do you like what happens when the cap when you're full all the way to the cap? And then something like this comes in? I mean, what what do people do to find that space? They need to wrap their heads around this because it takes a long time to figure out diabetes?

It does. Yeah, I think that that's an excellent point two, is that it it acknowledging that I might not understand how to how to manage my child's diabetes initially. And so you're dealing with your own personal grief, if that's, you know, the case about what it means for your child to have diabetes. And then you're probably feeling isolated. Because as as we know, it's, you know, it's, it's very rare. And I think that's part of the reason why, you know, type one, community is so tight knit, and probably most chronic illness communities are very tight knit, because you don't really understand it unless you're either living with the type one or you're caregiving for someone. And so I think, acknowledging that, I'm feeling isolated, I'm feeling distressed, I'm feeling anxious about what this means. Obviously, reaching out for support, whether it's one on one, therapy, listening to, you know, your podcast, finding support groups in your community. And if they aren't, they're asking your your child's doctor for that you creating your own, I think being in a support group, as a caregiver is really important. If you are struggling, and feeling like Gosh, I have no more bandwidth, I've reached my limit in terms of providing care for my child. That is signaling that you are in distress. Yep. Whether it's your own personal distress, including dealing with the diabetes distress. And it's exhausting. And so I think reaching out and finding the support, one on one, listening to other podcasts, and finding support groups for you, not just for your child is really, really important.

Yeah, it gets you to that spot where I don't know what psychologically it does for you to accept something. But it stops so much inner turmoil. That just I'm not saying giving yourself over to it, maybe is the wrong way to say it. But just the idea of Nikki's, you'll see people forever, like, well, there must be a cure for this. And they'll they'll, they'll just drive themselves crazy looking for it as if there was a cure for type one diabetes. And the 1.8 million people living with it are unaware of it. But the newly diagnosed person, it's like, no, obviously it exists. It's just that feeling of like putting off the inevitable, which is accepting that this is happening. But there's such a calm that comes after the acceptance.

Yes, yes. And and I think it's hard to know what comes first. Like, if you are feeling confident and competent in managing your child's diabetes, then maybe the acceptance comes after that. Or maybe the acceptance comes, okay, this is this is what we have in our life, we are not going to let this stop us from doing the achieving the goals we want for our family and for our child. We are going to accept this and we're going to put our head down and we're going to figure this out together. And then that calmness and acceptance that may then lead to the finding finding what you need to get your diabetes, your child's diabetes management, and you know, getting into stride with it, I guess. Yeah. And I don't know if one has to come before the other. But I think I totally agree that the acceptance piece is pivotal. And it you might be you might accept it right in it as the get go. You might just be someone who could handle kind of this this trauma. I know we talked about that in our other our first episode. That kind of the Trump traumatic experience that a diagnosis brings, but and then you might accept it and you might be working well with your child and your child's care team. And then you there might be another transition like such as puberty or the child's sick. And you might hit a bump in the road and you might experience some Distress and that's okay. It's not like okay, we're, we've accepted it, we're good, we're managing it. We know how to deal with this, and we're good to go. So to be gracious to yourself and your child that there will there will be a will and you'll ebb and flow in terms of your acceptance in you know, in your relationship with diabetes.

It's fascinating as your kids get older. It's like you're an employer and you have to hire the right person for a job. And you know, like you said in the beginning the kids are It's all on you, right? So the kids aren't involved and they hit those years, but they're like, well, I might want to help a little bit, then you look at them, you're like, why would I hire a 12 year old to take care of my son, you know, like, I know you are you but but you're not the right person to be making these decisions, then people have that fight where they don't want to hand it off, I have to admit that I don't, you know, I'm happy to give over pardons, you know, management to her slowly. But I was never in a position where I thought, I'm happy to trade her five, five, a one C for an eight a one c while she's figuring this out for the next two years. So that that wasn't a trade I was willing to make. But it's just tough because you look down and you're like, well, this isn't the person who should be in charge of this, the kids 14 doesn't know anything, he can barely remember which ways up he just wants to play PlayStation, like that kind of stuff, which then translates into when they're teens. And it's even worse, because now they actually they think they know something they don't even doubt themselves anymore, which is fascinating, you know. And then there you are in that situation, where some people run into where their kids don't doubt themselves don't understand how to manage their blood sugar's quite as well. And now they're creating what could potentially be dangerous situations, either for themselves short term or long term, and you as the parent are set back and going, I can't let this happen. It's such a stressful, a stressful thing to see a thing that you can fix that's impacting your child, the thing you probably love most in the whole world. And then you can't impact it because they're the blockade to you impacting it. It's a weird dynamic, where they are both the person the the, the focus of your love and concern, and the end the problem. At the same time, like the reason you can't get to that love and concern. I don't I didn't mean problem, but they're almost like the roadblock and the destination, if that makes sense.

Mm hmm.

Okay. Yes. And I think there's a reason why I often I'd say the majority of families that I work with are the kind of the newly diagnosed families within, you know, one month two, you know, six to 12 months. And, and then parents and with teens, because those are probably the more challenging seasons. And, yes, I mean, I think it's going to happen, right teens are going to want to rebel to a certain extent or fine, as we said that autonomy or independence, and yet, you know, we research has shown that positive, there are positive results from parents continue to be involved somehow in your child's diabetes management during the adolescent years. Yeah, and one of my mentors used to say, like, gosh, wouldn't it be great if you could just saran wrap the diabetes, part of their lives as teams with within their relationship with their parents, just to protect that, like, let them go do whatever else they've had to do as a teenager, but can we just somehow protect that aspect of their lives, because it does happen where teens either want to deny it, or don't want to manage it, or want to manage it themselves. And then there's consistent, you know, 300 words, and they think they're doing a good job, or they don't want to show the numbers. And I lived that for a period of time, myself. And the ultimate, I mean, I feel like if you are a parent with a teenager at this point, and you're experiencing this friction, and this conflict of a teenager saying, I don't want you to deal with this, I'm going to do this by myself. I mean, I think I know you, you have set up a different relationship with your daughter. And I think it would be wonderful. I know you just had a gallon I just listened to who was was a teenager. And now I think she's 18 who took it on herself and is managing just great and has been very independent and wanting to maintain those healthy habits. I would say sitting down with your with your teen and say okay, in this this category of your life, your diabetes, we are still going to whether I mean it's also different right with the with the CGM where you could look at on your app to see what your child's numbers are. If they aren't if they refuse to wear CGM, and that happens, then it's finding out okay, we are going to look at your meter once a week or once you know, at the end of the day, but you get to have control and agency in your life in these categories. And finding out what it what does that mean for them daily, they're going to want to have sleepovers. They're gonna want to do after school sports. I mean, a lot of this stuff isn't relevant at the moment given the pandemic but that obviously, hopefully that'll normal like normalcy will return there. I want to go to birthday parties or parties and general parties and finding out how can we protect this aspect of their life and come to some sort of agreements, but also giving them the opportunity to feel like they have control and agency in their life in other aspects that you both agree on that, you know, there's a compromise there,

I think you have to understand that in every interpersonal relationship, there is a line that you cannot push the other person over. Because if you do, there's just no coming back from it for some reason where it's difficult to get back from it. So. So I'm constantly thinking with my children, like I'm balancing, doing what's right for them with teaching them how to manage for themselves without pushing them away, which I guess would be a nice old fashioned way of saying what I just said, because once they're away, that's the whatever they leave with that day. And you don't want them to leave in an adversarial thing. Like, I want my kids to walk out the door with a bag over their shoulder thinking, I can't believe I'm moving out, like, that's what I'm looking for. Right? Not like, hey, go to hell, I'm out of here. And so you know, and so when that happens when you when you split that day, however it happens, you've taken them about as far as you get to take them. And then and so if they're gone too soon, then they're a bird falling out of a nest that can't fly yet. And, and that doesn't stop them from leaving, you know. So I just think that there's a way to move slowly towards that stuff. And you have to be able to look up on some law, see that your kids like rubbing up against something. And without letting them feel like they're in control, you know what I mean? Like there's a power struggle to with parenting, to kind of let go of all of it, you know, without letting them feel like they're pushing you around, you have to almost quietly back off in your mind, like, I have something else to say, This is not the time to say it. I'll wait for another opportunity. I just, um, I believe in that. And hopefully, it's going to help me my son's 20. And it looks like he has hashimotos out of nowhere, all of a sudden in the last couple

months.

And it's impacting him. And we're trying to get all of his levels together and help him out. And one of the things we've done is we've gotten his his vitamin D level up, and his iron level up. And so the other night, I said, Hey, did you remember your vitamins, which has been great about so far, and he's just frustrated, because some of the side effects of this haven't gone away yet. And he's like, they don't they don't help anything. And I was like, no, it took us two and a half months to get your vitamin D and your iron off. They help. And he got he broke the little bit. And what I was gonna say next was Yo man, you know, if you do one setup today, that doesn't give you a six pack. And six months from now, when you have a six pack. It's because you did the sit ups every day on the way to it. And now that you have it, if you want to keep it, you need to keep doing it. This is what I was gonna say to him. And instead I just went Yeah, that's cool. We'll talk about it later. And because I just was like, This is it, if I push him here, I'm going to lose him on this topic. And I and I can't afford to lose him on this topic. So yes, yeah,

yes. So knowing, knowing your the kind of the boundaries of when to push, and how far. And I and I think you also touched on, you know, as a teen, it's you there's instant gratification that they want and need. And it's so challenging to think about the long term complications implications of poor management. And so every day, it's, you know, yeah, I want this candy bar with my friends, and I don't feel like bolusing or injecting for it. And you're not, they're not sitting there thinking, Well, you know, if I keep doing this every day, for the next two years, I might have complications. And and I think just as you clearly exemplified, sometimes reminding them of that isn't necessarily, it's not the right way

to go. No. Yeah. And we, when they're little with, you know, to bring it back to diabetes, when they're little and you mess up a Bolus, their blood sugar goes up. Well, you work really hard to get it down, you hug them you do all the things you do, you know, when they're eight, nine, or you know, when they get into that 1213. And you do it again now, like, oh, they're sitting on the bench, they can't play because they're dizzy. All these things hit you as failure as the parent, like, you're like, Oh, I messed this up, I'm gonna kill them. I'm the reason they're not going to enjoy soccer, you know, like, whatever it ends up being. And then all of a sudden, when they're older. It's interesting, because it, they're, it's the first time that they can turn it back on you. It's like when they realize you're not perfect. You don't mean which happens in every parental relationship. The One day, the guy wakes up and goes, Oh, this guy doesn't know everything, does he? You know, and then God forbid you're wrong, or you get into your late 40s. And you have like a moment where you can't think of a word. They're just It's like watching a lion go after a gazelle with a broken leg. I see my kids look at me like like, Oh, he's not perfect. Now's our chance. Yeah, right. Right. But all of a sudden, you're trying to do the right thing. And maybe, and for a lot of people, you don't know what the right thing is, you don't know what the tools are, you don't know how to manage your insulin, right, you're just trying your best. And over and over again, it's, it's not going well, and your kids start to think she doesn't understand this diabetes at all. And I don't understand it. So we're screwed. And that's and then that can you can get to that spot. And that's why I'm just such a huge proponent of understanding how insulin works. Because it gives you It gives you a chance in all these things. And again, it gives you a chance to have some free time where blood sugar's aren't always bouncing around and you might actually be able to think about paying your electric bill or going for a walk or doing one of the things that's gonna keep you sane or balanced.

Yes, yes. Oh, my goodness. Yeah. Yeah. Not not responding. You're not responding to the roller coaster. You just know, okay, where we are as stable as possible. I'm doing the best I can. And now I can go take care of myself.

100% Yes. Have you

ever seen the movie? 1917?

No, no. Okay. So

in a nutshell, it kind of doesn't matter. I think it's like World War One. And, and there's like, there's like a, you know, it's a road movie. But in a war guys got to get from one place on foot to another place. It's just adrenaline the whole time. And sometimes that's what being a parent of somebody who has a chronic illness feels like to me, like, somebody just came into my life, one day, I was just there doing my thing. And they were like, hey, you're on a foot race now to the end. And you have to run constantly. Because if you stop, something's going to kill you. Like, you just have to keep going. And there is going every time the scene changes, something different is going to be there that feels like it's trying to get you and you have to run around it jump over or kill it and keep going. And that just is how diabetes feels to me like I remember having the conscious thought that my job is to get my daughter to the longest healthiest life possible. And I never thought about having kids that way prior to the day she had diabetes. Hmm. You know, and,

and that is an exhausting narrative to live with, particularly if you are not feeling like you're you have a sense of, you know, competency around it, or competence, you know, and how to manage it. Yes, right.

Right. And so at some point, I worked out the things I worked out, which then lessen that feeling. And it's, it's become less and less and less over time, to where I still feel like that's my goal. But I no longer feel like I'm running through 1917, Germany for my life anymore. And, and, and I really do, I really do believe that partly, that's community that did that. For me. I think it's part it's a big part, just understanding how insulin works, because then you start getting what you expect. And there's not that like, theoretical stress, like you almost like put insulin and then start wondering if you did it wrong. And then, and when that happens three times a day, you're 24 hours a day believing you've messed something up, and you're always living in that anger, you know, and then if you're married, one of the parents likely has a firmer grasp on diabetes and the other which can help, which makes you resent the other person for not helping you. And, you know, oh, it's just there's so much going on. But you're what you're saying is, is that if you're a parent of a child with type one, at any age, you really need a place to go no matter where it is, to feel normal to hear some other people who are doing, okay, who may be a little ahead of you on the journey, a place where you can rant and rave and scream if you need to, and then kind of come back out and reset, and give yourself What did you call it? Grace?

Yeah, Grace and grace and space to, you know, do what you need to do. And if you are the primary caregiver, and I know that that works for a lot of families. Because there's not that confusion that I think you shared recently on a podcast that, you know, you went to the store, and you just assumed that that someone else would be watching or managing or helping blood sugars. But I think there that assumption is also exhausting. And so I think if you're the primary caregiver, and you are feeling all of those things that we've talked about the burnout, the isolation, the guilt, or shame around, I don't know what I'm doing or if I made a mistake, to realize that you're not alone. And to get reach out if you if you don't have if you don't know anybody in your circle. I think that's to reach out to your to your child's doctor to say, Are there other parents, you know, with children around my age, my children, my children's age, that we can connect with because they know they have the data. Because the isolation piece I think is big, and then you isolation can make you feel like Not only that, you're alone, or that if then that, then your thoughts can like I'm doing it wrong, and I'm a bad parent. And that just kind of can, you can dig a hole really quickly with them when you're feeling alone. And that could happen to your

kids too. And that one of the Yes, it's funny when people come on the show, and they've heard the show. And it's not everybody, but it's, I used to think it was really heavily like, towards the people were like, Oh, my God, I learned how to use insulin that's been so valuable for me, because I see that as the most valuable piece of the podcast, yes, but it's not true. What I hear most from people is, I never knew another person with diabetes, this show gives me a sense of community, all those things, you just said, it ends up being so much more important to the person who lives with the diabetes, then you might understand like, like, when a parent looks for community, they might look for support, advice, you know, that kind of stuff, pat on the back kind of stuff. But when a person with type one looks for community, the community they want is similar but not the same. It's what they need is to just not feel isolated, just like you said, and it's such a bigger piece then apparent not feeling isolated. I don't know why I think that I don't think I have that thought completely fleshed out yet. But community means different things, depending on what side of the syringe you're on, I guess.

And I think that, yeah, the community piece, yes, for the, the person with the diabetes to know they're not alone. They're not this, you know, strange person and to hear tips and tricks, but then again, in the caregiving piece, to also feel either encouraged or acknowledged and to decrease that isolation. But also just a place. I mean, there, if you can't find a caregiver group, specifically for type one, there are just general caregiver support groups out there that might bring together a variety of people cannot caregiving for their spouse with cancer, or whatever the chronic illness might be, just to have that sense of community to know you're not alone in a lot of those similar emotions and triggers that you might be feeling as the caregiver. So my

last question I have, yeah, one last question on this is, that's, that's all great for people who are willing to do that. Yeah. You know, like, when I talk about how people eat on the show, I always say, like, Look, it's probably easier to have diabetes and eat very low carb, but most people aren't going to do that. So let's teach them how to use their insulin so they can live the life that they want to live. And similarly, I think therapy is a great idea. But a lot of people don't do it. A lot of people drink instead, or walk out back and cut down the tree with a chainsaw and cut it up a little tiny pieces, then kick it around, or what what do people do who aren't going to seek out community that aren't going to go for therapy? Or I mean, I have to be honest, that little breathing thing on the apple on the iPhone is like deep breathing really is relaxing. But what what can people do so they don't slip off and, and become a caricature of a of a sad person?

Yes, well, I think, oftentimes, you might not even realize it as a caregiver that you are experiencing burnout. Oftentimes, I hear someone who might come in to my office, and they'll say, Well, you know, what, my spouse noticed that I was talking about how tired I was, or how I wasn't, I wasn't doing the things I used to do that I really enjoyed, or I am feeling helpless. And I'm talking about that. Or maybe Yeah, maybe I'm drinking more coffee or drinking more wine or I'm not. I'm withdrawing from my friends and family, and I didn't And oftentimes, you might not even realize that that has happened. And so it sometimes takes someone on the outside to kind of reflect back in the caring, loving way. Maybe it's time for you to get help. But if you aren't, if you aren't at the point of being able to reach out because that does happen. Yes, obviously deep breathing, to do the things try and reflect back on. Okay, what was one thing that I used to do that I enjoyed before my child was diagnosed, whether that was I used to go on walks every morning, or I used to do the certain activity. So I think reflecting if you're at that point where you feel like your hands are in the air, you are exhausted, and you don't even have the energy or desire to to go to a support group or to meet with a therapist, to think back. Hey, what did I used to do, pre diagnosis that I enjoyed, and slowly maybe integrating that asking for a break for an afternoon or once a day or yet once a day or once a week from being the primary caregiver and doing that thing, whether it's exercise or deep breathing or meditation Or meeting up with a friend?

Can I share two things?

That's where I would start? Yeah, please.

So one of these is embarrassing. I'm gonna start with one. That's not embarrassing. How's that sound? So during the pandemic, I've taught myself to make barbecue, to make pizza from like the dough to the scratch to How To Cook it like a real like Neapolitan. Because I just have this time, I don't know what to do it. And then at Christmas, Kelly gave me a drone. It's this little thing. It's a very small one. It's not, it's not very expensive at all. But I found that, first of all, I was scared of it. Like my I was scared to use it. It's something I've talked about for years, like I want to try to fly a drone one day, that's all I said. But it turns out that my spatial awareness is what I was scared of, I was afraid that what would happen when I was pointing one way, and the drone was going another way that I wouldn't have the coordination to deal with that. And so I practice in an open field, you know, and what I've learned over the last couple of weeks is that once the drones up in the air, and it's moving, it's the only thing I'm able to think about where the drone will crash on the ground. And there's an I never been a person to stop thinking about other things. And so just one thing that was not life or death to anyone, right, has really changed. And I will find myself running outside in the middle of the afternoon when I have an hour just to put that thing in the air for five minutes. Just because I come away with some sort of a relaxed feeling when it's over.

Well, and it's something that you are completely in control of that.

Well, well Also, it also gave me this idea, like if it cuz it can go up in the air. And your first thing is like, what if I What if it crashes, and you actually have to let go of that to do it. It's almost like not being afraid of insulin anymore. Like, you know, like, Oh, I Bolus and it goes up. And I know I should use more. But I'm afraid until you just go hell, I'm going to use the amount of needs, until you say to yourself, if this thing falls out of the sky. That's the price of doing business if I want to fly a drone, and so once you let go of it, it's completely free. Now my other thing, and I don't know how many people will take me up on this. But when I'm completely alone, which I used to find myself a lot, and I don't much anymore, I guess we most of us don't feel it anymore. When I have a problem, I talk it out in my head. But there are times that I feel I don't realize it and I'm thinking of something in my head. And then all of a sudden I'm alone in my house and I'm talking about it out loud. And I've come to realize that it's nothing different than sitting down in front of a microphone to make a podcast where there's no guest. And I just I find it easier to talk through things if I can hear it almost like at the end of when I after I wrote my book, it was supposed to be turned in on a certain day. And I remember sending the publisher, a note and saying just get like, Can I have it for one extra day? Before I give it to you. And the last thing I did was read it out loud to myself. Because for some reason. hearing it in my head and hearing it out loud were two different things. And I don't know if that's valuable or not, or if I'm crazy, but those two things helped me like focusing on something it's not my life for a little while giving yourself over to that and sometimes I talk to myself when I'm but not to myself. Um, I don't know how to put it. I'm not talking

about your verbally processing out loud.

Yes, I'm not going Hey, Scott, and Scott's not answering in a slightly different voice. Not happening like that. It's almost like I'm explaining something to someone who's not there.

Yes, and hearing yourself, say it out loud. Probably achieves a lot of things. But it could be common you're releasing or getting an out of your brain and out saying I made a similar exercise would be you know, writing it down journaling to get whatever that is out onto paper, then you can see it. And maybe for some like sounds like for yourself, it's helpful to for you to say it out loud. And then to hear it.

Yeah. Do you know how often this happens to me in the middle of it? I think, gosh, I was wrong about that. Like you can actually you just think something you held like so dear. And then you're like, I'm not right about that. Dammit. And I don't know, it just that's what works for me. But I just want people to do something for themselves. Because your kid getting diabetes can't just be the start of your life or death run across World War One. And then when you get to the end, somebody pat you on the gas and goes, Wow, good job, and then you drop over dead because you just use the last 60 years doing it. I just you know, it can't be like that.

And yes, and I would add you know, and I'm so grateful that you shared what those two things that worked for you. I think oftentimes caregivers might feel like if they take a break from caregiving, something's going to happen to their child. And that this this fear of like responsibility and guilts around, what if what if I leave the house for 30 minutes? Is my child going to have a seizure or he's going to go really high and the chances are probably not. But even so that I think they're going to be okay for that short amount of time. And it doesn't have to be a long break. I think finding those windows of time like for you, you had an hour to run out and do the drone, it could be 10 minutes to say, you know what, I'm gonna go do my 10 minute walk around the block. But finding those moments to take care of yourself to step away from the diabetes is really, really crucial. Yeah,

I want to say that take it from me, I was the person who used to think I didn't like sleeps not as important for me, I thought after Arden got diabetes, it all of this will catch up to you at some point, if you don't take care of it, it won't, we're not going to escape through like, don't be the person who's like smoking, that doesn't give me lung cancer, it gives everybody lung cancer eventually. So you're like, you know, you're not the special one who doesn't need to sleep eight hours or, you know, can can operate a nine pots of coffee for the rest of their life. It just doesn't work that way. You have to find the balance, you know, do you agree?

Absolutely. Yes, you might feel sorry, go ahead.

I know, I'm sorry. You finished now. So I was gonna say,

oh, say I agree. Because it but the initial stages, there is that fear of I can't I can't leave my child. And and maybe that feels like in in the first couple months? That might feel true and is true. But to realize that yeah, that is not sustainable. And to involve other people as needed.

No, no, yeah. In the beginning of the Apocalypse, we're all running and screaming. But it's Yeah, point you got to find a building to hide into and let the zombies walk around outside while you chill out. That's all. It's very simple. Now, here's the bigger problem, you came on to talk about two things in the hour that we booked. And now 15 minutes later, we're on to the second. So what do we do?

You know, we we while we were I tried to integrate a little bit, you know, we were also talking about just, you know, teenage years. And I feel like we integrated that a little bit into our conversation. But if we want to dive deeper, perhaps we can do that another time. Or if there are questions that come up from your audience, specifically and other topics, we could do that too.

Well, I am all for having you back on. So if you're up for it, I'm up for it. It's just you. You're like my, you're like my emotional Jenny. Like to me.

Well, thank you, I that's a nice compliment. Yeah, I enjoy being here and chatting with you. And hopefully, you know, helping those who are out there listening, and I'd love to be back. Seriously, I want to

wish you a ton of success with your knee surgery. I know you don't know when you're doing it yet. But if you ever want to do a podcast on painkillers, you let me know. Okay. Because I wouldn't be like,

oh, that would be interesting.

What should a family do? They should shut up?

No,

not even under drugs? Would you say that? Give me your web address again.

Erica foresight.com.

And for now you need to be in California if you want to talk with Erica. But yes, through this pandemic, I've just spoken to too many people who are struggling in ways that a lot of us can imagine. And that for each one of them speaking to somebody has been what's helped them so far. You know, there's just no shaman. I mean, you wouldn't you wouldn't break your arm and go I'm not gonna go to a doctor this will probably heal on its own. You know, like if you if you have a problem that you can't deal with on your own, go to a person who can help you deal with it, because it's just, it just when it goes wrong for somebody like psycho when psychological issues go wrong for somebody, they go, they can go really you can just get lost. And like a spiral. Yeah, what I there's a couple of people I'm thinking of that I've spoken to I don't even know how they got back again. It's it's a triumph to get back again. And the truth is they all did it with support of one or multiple people that helped them along.

Yes, yeah. I mean, that's and that's really the goal of therapy for you know, from my perspective is restoring that hope, you know, and and, and healing and growth that can occur in an individual and family system, otherwise I wouldn't be doing what I do.

Yeah. Well, I appreciate that you that you're doing this one day, you know, a year from now, I'll actually talk to you about your diabetes like you're just like, like you don't know anything about this other stuff. I just said it the Jenny the other day. I said one day we should like interview you like you're a person and not like Jenny a CD and she's like, I am a person and I was like yeah, what can I do that one day and she's like, okay, so um,

Yeah, happy happy to do that too. Because Yeah, I'm also i'm also live in Buckhead, and I understand very much all the challenges. Yeah.

Before I let you go, yes. Is it important for someone? Or not important? What's the How do I want to ask this? Is it? Is it extra value that value added for my therapist to have type one? If I'm in there talking about type one? Or do you think that a therapist that doesn't have it can do it justice? Well,

you know, I think and there they are, there's trainings, you know, the a DA and APA did trainings for therapists who are specializing and working with, with families with type one. So I think they can provide certainly, you know, expert advice and professional and psychological support. I know that particularly with, with teens, it brings I can validate what they are going through, and they can they understand that I really get it. And so I think that's an extra value add for me just personally working with particularly the teenage population, which was different from maybe someone to say, like, gosh, I really, you know, I don't get what you're going through, but I know it's hard. Yeah. But I think, yes, I certainly there are therapists out there who are excellent, who are trained well, who can provide the support you need who do not have type one, but it can it can help with certain populations. And for people who

do try therapy, and like my son, they're like, why don't you take the vitamin D every day or every other day? or whatever? Like, how much time do you give it before it builds up some efficacy for you? Like, you can't just go into one session and be like, that's it, I should feel differently, right? And how long until you know, if this therapist that you chose isn't right for you, like, What's that, that soaking in period? Like in the beginning?

That's a great question. And I often tell my clients, you know, it, it has to be a great fit for both parties. And usually, I often suggest or encourage them to give it a go at least two times, two sessions, and to see how, because when Usually, the first session has maybe a lot of nerves and just kind of general overview of what their B looks like and feels like. So it's a by two or two, if not, by three sessions, you aren't feeling like your therapist is either meeting our needs are understanding your goals, then it's okay to to move on. And in terms of experiencing efficacy, or some change, or hope that there's going to be change, I often suggest 10, roughly, you know, 10 sessions three months to not only work on building the rapport and trust and identify and then identifying the goals, where do we want to go? What's our hope? And then at the kind of approximate three to four month mark, to take a pause and evaluate, Okay, are we are we going in the right direction? Are you feeling like your needs are being met? These are questions I'd be asking my client. And then by then by the three to 10, six, six month mark, I would hope that my client is is experiencing some change. Oftentimes, you might hear a therapist say it might feel worse before it gets better. Which that that often happens if you're doing a lot of trauma work. And if you're processing maybe the grief around the diagnosis that you have never done, that could feel maybe painful at first. But then the hope is that you would transition slowly into receiving and experiencing healing around that and moving into maybe more acceptance and hope. So that's kind of a general guideline. timeframe. But you know, every every client is different. But I'd say on average, that's, that's what happened. I appreciate that. I

just wouldn't want somebody to just do it and then leave and go on. Not

all I don't

feel perfect. Like this didn't work. And I can imagine everything you said and all the different possibilities being true for somebody. So I want just like a general guideline for them to think yes,

Yeah, it does. It does take time to undo, you know, your thinking or your and move to healing. Yeah,

right. Now listen, it's all just our parents fault. I'm just kidding.

Sometimes, yeah.

Well, I really appreciate you doing this again. And I will talk to you soon.

Okay.

First things first, let's thank Dexcom and that g six continuous glucose monitor and remind you to go to dexcom.com forward slash juice box. Are you looking for a free no obligation demo of the Omni pod tubeless insulin pump, or perhaps a free 30 day trial of the Omni pod dash Hello 30 days. That's one 12th of the Year by omnipod.com Ford slash juicebox. Go find out what you can get. Head over there. It's like One of those crane machines and somebody already dropped the quarter and all you got to do is move the joystick around and see what you get my Omnipod comm forward slash juicebox. Don't forget T one d exchange.org. forward slash juicebox. And of course, thank you so much to Erica for coming on the show. There are links in the show notes, all the sponsors, and a link to Erica, if you're in California, and you'd like to check her out. Thanks so much for listening for the great reviews you've been leaving on your podcast players. And of course, for sharing the show with other people. I really appreciate it when you do that. And when you hit subscribe in your podcast app, I think I just decided how to celebrate 3 million downloads to let me take a look here just real quickly, I won't keep you much longer. You're fine. This one was only an hour, you can do it again. When are we going to hit 3 million. Rough math is about a month from now, about a month from now the show is going to hit 3 million lifetime downloads, which is very, very, very cool and extremely exciting. And I think I know what I'm going to do to celebrate it. I think I'm going to make I don't want to say yet, but I'm going to do something and we'll see if you like it. I always do giveaways and I have to be honest. And only one person gets something and that doesn't seem very celebratory. So I'm going to try to find a way where everybody can have the same thing. We'll see. I'm trying to figure it out. Give me a second. Okay. I'll be back soon. 3 million. It's a big deal. By the way. It's a podcast about type one diabetes, 3 million downloads. Are you kidding me? Gonna have 4 million probably. And I think we definitely hit 4 million this year. Easy. It's just It's crazy. I never imagined first month 2015 January 1000, like 200 downloads or something like that. In a month. I don't even I can't even tell you how many downloads I get in a month now trade secret, but it's a lot. And I wonder if I can find? Hmm, hold on a second. Can I find out exactly how many downloads the podcast had in the first month? I can. I just have to change this to January. If you're still with me, I love you guys. Thanks so much. It's actually March. I started this show in January. But I didn't start it on a service where I could track downloads. I was I did not know what I was doing. Let's just be fair and say that. So maybe March 24 is the first trackable download. So why don't we do April? Even though the show started in January, I just didn't know what I was doing in January. Yeah, I can do this. Hold on a second. I know you're like I already Hold on a second Scott. What the hell but give me a second. Make it how many days are April's that 31 or 30? June to December Maple moon and just I don't even know that Brian. Isn't that crazy? Yeah, what are you gonna do? April 1 to may 1.

Monthly totals.

Wow, this is crazy. There were days when the show only got 100 downloads a day. Some of these that had like 43 That's so weird. Look at this April. You care about this? April 1 20 1533 downloads. The second nine the third four on the fourth that had 18 all right now just imagine I go forward a day every time I say number 610 34 what even made me keep doing this 109 130 340-617-1627 90 102 152 43 I'm like halfway through April not 2626 Wow. 5724 that's how the whole month goes just like that for for a perspective. Here for perspective, since I started talking about how many downloads there were in April until now. The show has been downloaded 203 times while we were just talking about it. That's crazy, isn't it? It still freaks me out.

Anyway,

I feeling very celebratory about it. And I've learned I want I want se me there. I was like count Dracula's like I want to tell you about the thing I want to celebrate somehow. So I think I have an idea. People online helped me with what they want me to put it together, I should be able to announce it very, very soon. It's not that exciting, but I think you'll like it. And that's it. All right. We excited? Good. I want to do the thing. I turned into Dracula from a 50s movie there for a second. Anyway, wasn't Erica great. While we're still chatting. I love her. She's coming back again. I'm gonna make her come back. I can't actually make her. That's not how the world works. But I asked her and she said yes already. So she's coming back. Oh, one last thing. I was supposed to put this the front of the show. I'll do that next time. Each episode has transcripts now at Juicebox podcast.com. So many people ask me for transcripts, and it was a ton of work and not fun. But they're there. They're there. hate it when I say that. But they're on Juicebox podcast.com. Now so you go to this specific episode, link for the episode you're listening to you scroll down a little bit. Christ let me look. I didn't mean to curse. Hold on. Juicebox Podcast calm scroll down. Like here's the last episode, falling forward. Number 444. I click on it. The episode page comes up. Scroll down, tells you a little bit about the episode shows you some places you can listen on different apps, you can actually listen right there, there's a player. Then it says click for episode transcript. This is above the sponsor. So if you get to the sponsors Dexcom touch by type one on the pod T one D exchange de vocht. glucagon and the Contour Next One blood glucose meter. You've scrolled down too far, scroll back up to where it says click for episode transcript. When you click on that, it opens up words everywhere. There's a tiny disclaimer at the top. And I'll tell you why. Because the transcripts of the transcripts are being done with artificial intelligence. They're not perfect. So just as this text is the output of an AI based transcribing from an audio recording, although the transcript is largely accurate, in some cases, it is incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcript errors and should not be treated as an authoritative record. Nothing that you read here constitutes medical advice, blah, blah, blah. And then it's a transcript. Scott Benner Hello everyone and welcome to Episode 440. For me, talkie talkie all of a sudden Jeff comes up. My name is Jeff. I'm 34 years old. I've been typing. Every episode has this. There's a couple that have it that don't have it still. If you find one that doesn't please email me and let me know. But otherwise, to all the people out there that asked for transcripts. They're there. Go get them. I hope they make your life better. I sincerely do. That's definitely a no no. I'm going by

Hello friends and welcome to Episode 473 of the Juicebox Podcast. Today, Erica forsyte this back. You know Erica, she's the licensed Marriage and Family Therapist from California. She's been on the show a number of times, and she's here today to talk with me about how to address sneaking of food. Please remember, while you're listening that nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise. Please always consult a physician before making any changes to your health care plan, or becoming bold with insulin. California residents if you're looking for a therapist, look no further than Erica forsyth.com. I'd like to remind you that if you're looking for the diabetes pro tip episodes or the defining diabetes episodes, they are right here in your podcast player. But you can also find them at Juicebox Podcast calm or diabetes pro tip calm. If you're listening in a podcast player, please hit subscribe or follow. Thank you very much. The T one D exchange is looking for type one adults and type one caregivers who are us residents to participate in a quick survey that can be completed in just a few moments from your computer or phone. This survey is 100% anonymous, completely HIPAA compliant, and does not require you to ever see a doctor or go to a remote site. Why you say what a survey require that? Well, because this data is actually helping people living with type one diabetes, and I wouldn't want you to get confused and think oh, this is a trial. I might have to go see a doctor, huh? No, no, you can actually help people with type one without being in a trial. And without visiting a physician. You just go to T one d exchange.org. forward slash juicebox. Click on join our registering now, and then simply complete the survey. Once you've done that, your information, which again is completely anonymous, will be used to help other people living with Type One Diabetes and it supports the podcast. Past participants like you have helped to bring increased coverage for test strips, Medicare coverage for CGM, and have brought changes in the ABA guidelines for pediatric a one c goals. And I'm excited to imagine what your participation may lead to T one d exchange.org. forward slash juicebox. There's also a link in the show notes at Juicebox. Podcast comm a bunch of people who listened to the show sent in questions for you. And you distilled them down into topics. Is that fair? Yes. Okay. Great. Great. And so as I'm looking at them here and trying to decide where to start, I feel like I want to start with sneaking food. Are you comfortable with that?

Absolutely.

Okay. I am at a, I'll just say that I'm at a loss when people ask this question of me. And it does get asked of me a ton. You know, Mike, I don't know what to do. And I'll tell you what, it's almost heartbreaking. Because it usually ends up being these people who have figured out they think they've got it all figured out. And then they keep seeing these like anomaly type blood sugars, and they kill themselves. Maybe it's the basil, maybe I didn't Bolus the meal at lunch, right? And it's protein coming. And they really they just they're killing themselves trying to figure out what it is. And then one day they realize that their kids are eating innopolis thing for it. And it's um, it seems heartbreaking when it happens to them to the parent, you know, but I want to understand I mean, obviously I want to let you talk your way through it but I feel like what we want to understand here for the parents perspective is why does this happen? And how do you work through it? Does that make sense?

Yes the why and then the house okay

yes great. So I mean go What do you think

first of all, I think removing type one out of the equation this can happen in you know with children and teens anyway. of sneaking food but with looking at it through the lens of type one. I would consider has it become has a certain what type of food are they sneaking Is it is it just sweets? Is it crackers? You know what is has a food group in your house become known as bad or forbidden? And is that what the what your child sneaking. Okay. So are they, they're feeling like oh my gosh, I'm not supposed to eat candy. And that's just eat crackers, whatever it is, I would want to examine, has it become a forbidden fruit sort of speak in your household? And is that why the child is seeking it? Because they know they're not supposed to have it? And, and really just looking at, okay, why? Why has that? If that is the case? Why has that become forbidden? Is it because you don't feel comfortable? bolusing for it, is it that your child just you cannot figure it out, and your child reacts in a certain way? So I would look at is it? Is it something that they have learned, or they've been told that they're not supposed to have it? And that implies, like some excitement around maybe it's like, they don't really even care, but it's exciting to sneak it. And so that's kind of I would look at that is those first two things? Is it? Is it forbidden? And maybe they're getting some kind of emotional response out of it to?

Go ahead?

Is it not possible that it could have become forbidden by mistake? Meaning maybe the kid has seen you have some weird reaction to a number at some point. And you've said like, Oh, this, you know, cereal? Always does this? And then maybe they think, well, I don't want to put that on my parents.

Yes. And I think they're trying to avoid maybe any shame that has been, like placed on them by accident. Or, you know, gosh, I when I eat this cereal, and I go high, and then mom or dad gets frustrated or angry. And maybe they're not frustrated or angry with me, but they're angry at the number, but it's pretty common then for the child to internalize. I've been a bad kid. I've been a bad, whatever. I've made bad choices. I'm not supposed to eat this food. I don't want mom and dad to be angry. I don't want to see that number. So I'm just going to sneak it and pretend like it didn't happen. And then to avoid the shame, but then we know that you know, shame can just creep in and grow. So yes, I think it can happen by accident. Absolutely. Not necessarily just by like clear, don't eat this food ever write statements.

So what you just said made me think of one thing. And I have a second question. But then Couldn't it be possible that adults living with type one who have no one watching them? Like you're not even like a spouse? Like somebody that's there could end up in some odd way stealing food from themselves by not bolusing for it? Is that the same problem? Like I do you see what I'm saying? Like if you know that this Bolus is going to go poorly. Is it easier to just like say, well screw it, I'm just going to eat this anyway. And I'll deal with it later. Rather than put myself as a scenario where I make a Bolus, it doesn't work. And then the whole thing feels like a failure throughout.

Yes, I would say yeah, and there's a lot of right, there's a lot of steps that you're going through in your mind. And it may be just becomes a pattern to behavior, where I somehow have either learned or establish this pattern in my life, where if I eat this certain food, whatever it is, I can never get it right. I'm just going to eat it. And then I'm going to figure it out later, I'm going to try and correct it later. Or I'm just going to avoid the whole thing. And just move on without my day. And then you're running high. And you kind of go to the next thing, right? So I think even as adults, you can if as a kid, you have learned that you weren't supposed to eat a certain food group. And this, this happened for me for sure. As a child, 30 years ago, I wasn't allowed to eat sweets. And so of course, I snuck them. And then in that pattern, I became like, it became shameful to eat. And then the other issue that I think is maybe ask answering the question, why is that maybe as a child or even as an adult, you've been eating a cookie in public, and maybe some kind of peripheral friends or peers or colleagues know you're diabetic? And they say, Are you allowed to eat that? I mean, this happens to me still. And it depending on how I want to respond, I'll just say yep. And keep going. Or if I feel like I want to give a response, I'll explain how I can eat it. But that can if you're hearing that question all the time, particularly as a child who might not have all the development, developmental, you know, ability to kind of process through Yes, I can eat it and it's okay. They're not trying to shame me.

That happens and so you that you then feel like oh my gosh, am I supposed to have this? Why does everyone keep asking if I can have this?

So forget it. I'm not going to eat it in public. I'm going to go hide this and ate it in my room.

So So shame Right is, in this scenario, the diabetes, like the function of the diabetes and how it impacts blood sugar gets commingled, it gets melded with who you are. And that's why you feel shameful about it. Is that I mean, yes, because I hear people all the time talking about, especially like old time type ones, they're very careful to warn people about not conflating you with your diabetes. And I've always understood, like, I've always felt like, I've understood that, but in this specific scenario, I can see now as you're discussing it, where the impact comes in, if I am my diabetes, then the failure of my insulin use is a failure of me. This all gets pulled together into one thing, and therefore, I'd rather not have this experience even for myself, but I but also not let somebody from the outside see it.

Yes. And and then equating, if you're saying, Okay, and then I'm bad. I'm a bad person, not even just even a bad diabetic. Yeah, I'm a bad person. If I've eaten this cookie, and I didn't Bolus correctly and now I'm 300. And I, I'm a terrible person.

And inside in your brain and your psyche, there's no difference between that number and you at that point.

Correct. Correct. And so

when you hear somebody who loves a person whose, by the way, is sneaking food the right way to say it? I'm not usually the word police. But is, is that? I guess it really is. Right? It's

it's eating? Well, I

think Bolus Yes. Yeah, I think eating without bolusing is one thing. But if you're doing it, or even bolusing correctly, but if you're doing it in a way that you you're taking food, and either you're actually physically hiding while eating, which I know happens. Or you're sneaking it without kind of if you are under that's I'm thinking from more from the lens of like a child, and you're eating something without disclosing it. Which sounds so terrible, right? Like without saying, Hey, Mom, I want Hey, Dad, I want to have this apple. So are you sneaking it? I guess it just that it's a tough? Yeah, eating without your eating without bolusing. But then I think there is a category for you actually are sneaking the food, hiding it because you've you've learned and you're hiding and you've learned and you feel like you weren't supposed to eat it. So you're going to hide it hide it

you for a moment, if we take a side shoot here for a second, if we take diabetes out of this for a second. People sneak food, right?

Absolutely. I mean, particularly if like, let's say you're on a diet, you will say oh, I'm not supposed to have this, I'm gonna sneak this in into my diet, or as a kid who knows that they can have maybe one treat a day. But then they find, you know, some old Halloween candy in a cupboard. They might sneak it because then they feel like it's it's like forbidden. It's not allowed.

What about adults that hide food from family members and co workers and stuff like that? Are we really just replacing the acceleration of blood sugar with the acceleration of of weight? And so all the rest of it's the same. It's the it's just the thing that you're trying to hide is different. Does that make sense? Well, yes,

yes. And I think then you ask the question, Well, why is that person hiding? whatever they're doing? Yeah, because they have developed this kind of shameful pattern thinking that, like, I'm bad. I'm not supposed to do this. So I don't want anyone else to see it. And so I just, I need to hide and do this. before. It's sad. You know, it's It is sad.

I have one more question before I go to my next. My next question, which is okay. In a person's psyche. Is it possible to hide something from yourself?

Interesting, is it? Well, you can think that you're hiding it from yourself, right? by either mind mindlessly doing something, right. Like if we're staying on the topic of sneaking food, and you're thinking in through the lens of also diabetes, like, Okay, I'm going to pretend like I'm not eating this. I'm thinking about, like, let's say you have a piece of pie, or a whole pie. And people just say I'm just, I'm just cleaning off the edges, right? Like, you think that you're not really having a piece of pie because you're just having a little bite, but then by the time you go back and do that 20 times you've had the piece of pie. Yeah, I think they're, you're kind of like trying to pretend and not trying to sneak or hide it from yourself, but

kind of make it like you're not

really eating it. Does that make sense? It's excuses. That's like it. Yeah. So there's a thing when I'm when I'm eating lower carb for myself, I get a sweet tooth. I try to have a little dark chocolate. Right. And that works great for me. But it's a little bit of dark. If there's a time where I started seeing myself having the dark chocolate too frequently throughout the day, like Normally, it would just be once there is there's a part of me that's like, Oh, I just used the dark chocolate too. But there's the, the rational part of me is like, you're about to break this diet you're on. And this is the way you're getting into it. Like, I can feel it happening. And I'm intellectually I understand it's happening. But I am able to lie to myself for sometimes a day or two, before I go, Oh, come on, you know what you're doing. And put a stop to it. It's just, it's really I mean, you're not lying. You can't lie to yourself, right? Like, you can't, you can't punch a hole through a wall and tell yourself, you're picking flowers. But you but you, you can say, It's okay, if I punch this hole on the wall, I'm giving myself permission to do it. I know it's wrong, generally speaking, but I'm not going to punish myself over this right now. And and I wonder if that because because like, with so many things with diabetes, sometimes we look so hard at the type one, or the diabetes in general, that we forget that, like, people who don't have diabetes go through the same thing. It's like exactly what I mean, like the that's where the idea of real people set comes from, because people, right, because people with diabetes, tried to blame everything on their diabetes. And sometimes you just, you know, there's a difference between sneaking food because you don't want somebody to see because of a blood sugar thing, etc. Because it's become verboten somehow in your life. And maybe just the fact that you're just sneaking food for other reasons. And I just wanted to be clear about that. So then, here's the next heartbreaking part of this, especially when it's a child. Someone will say, I, I've been working on this for years, I figured out there, basil. I know how to Bolus for anything asked me I can Bolus for anything. I figured it out so that they can be healthy. It's not hard. It is not difficult to do we do it every time. Why would they sneak food and cause themselves a problem? When it's not even necessary, when we're so good at this, that it wouldn't be a problem to eat whatever thing it is they're thinking of. And that part for me is particularly interesting. Because I just I'm gonna tell you the 20 minutes before I came up here, Arden and I intersected in the kitchen. And she's hungry, but she didn't know for what she's like, I don't know what I want. And she's kind of there's nothing in the house like that whole dance. Like you're like, Well, what about you name nine things now? Like no, right?

Yeah.

And so then I was like, you just want a bowl of cereal. And she said, I don't have time to eat that. And I was like, What do you mean? I said, Sure you do just Bolus and we'll we'll do it. No, there's I don't want to wait. I don't want to wait for the Pre-Bolus She told me. So I was able to say Don't worry, we won't wait for the Pre-Bolus will over Bolus it. But I know how to handle not Pre-Bolus even even for something like vicious like cereal, right. And so I know how to over Bolus that meal, so won't cause a big problem. And even if it gets out of whack a little bit, we'll I'll knock it back down and show it or show Bolus again or however, you know, whoever intersects with first. But why would a kid knowing that you are proficient at diabetes? avoid something still, like that, to me is the thing that I watch parents, they can't make any sense of it, especially after they've put so much time and love and effort into figuring it out.

Mm hmm. What do you think?

I think it's Yeah, it's a very common question and concern and struggle really because I would look at I would want to know, it's hard to kind of give blanket say without like, choosing an age because I would say Are they they had an age of trying to demonstrate some independence or control over their life and is this one way of them feeling like hey, I can eat this on my own without anyone telling me what to do or how to Bolus or you know, feeling like is it that is it the wanting to have some control over their own life and decision without consultation? Is it is it wanting to maybe be like their peers if it's in a peer group situation and they're all quickly deciding to go eat whatever it is hamburgers or ice cream? And they just don't want to deal with it? Are they Is it is it I want to I don't want to be different I want to be like appear. Or maybe going back to the basics of you know, when this worked for one family where they went shopping with their child to the grocery store, and they said pick out everything you'd ever want to eat, you know, from all the aisles, whatever, no judgement, nothing. And just really kind of demonstrating to this this exercise helped for the family and for the child. The See, look, you can eat anything, I mean, Grant grant it within the guidance of maybe the family's expectations of eating or protein, vegetable and car, or whatever, whatever they're well about nutrition looks like. But to say you can also you can eat the Oreos, you can eat the Doritos, whatever you want, whatever kind of, quote, junk food or food that you think we don't approve of, you get it, buy it, let's fill up our cart, and take it home. And let's lay it on the counter. And you just get all we need to know is, you know, before you want it, let's Pre-Bolus or whatever, whatever the decision that works or to do what you're you're able to do with Arden. And so really kind of going through that exercise of allowing the child to see to feel to have control over picking what their favorite snacks are at the grocery store, and giving giving them some control of their life in that way. I guess. Yeah, I'm saying, and that bleeds

into everything, right? Like, you know, what you're making me realize, like, You're making me think of something. So when I was growing up, there was a public school and a private Catholic school, kind of in the neighborhood. And as you got older, this thing would happen when the Catholic school girls would graduate, they'd all cut their hair, it was the strangest thing, right? Or they would start dressing completely different. Or in some cases, like having a lot of sex that they didn't have in high school, like they they made, like, big changes to their life. And I always felt like that was because they had grown up. So I kind of controlled, and I carried that remembrance into my parenting. And, and I did, I didn't give my kids like, you know, drugs when they were 10 and stuff like that. But but I tried to let my kids have a lot of agency over themselves, and to make as many decisions as they could on their own. And I'll tell you, it's a pain in the ass. Sometimes when you're raising kids, and you give them a lot of input, because there are times where you're just like, Alright, well, let's go figure out what the seven year old wants. Now, you know what I mean? And you're like, and you just need to go where you need to get something done. But it ended up paying off long term. Because my children do not feel like they're being controlled by us as much as they could. And trust me, they still do because they're young people. And you're always gonna feel like there's something to break away from. But is this another place where we're conflating diabetes with just being alive? Is what made me wonder when you were discussing it, like, I get the I get the Pierce thing, we're all out, we're gonna stop somewhere real quick, I don't have time to Bolus for it, or to count the fat in it, and then do an Bolus for the fat like, you know, you're 14 trying to decide how much fats in french fries, you know, like that kind of stuff? Like, hold on a second, there's a simple equation my mom taught me. Oh, my God, let's go over that while we're joy riding. You know what I mean? I understand that I understand. But I do also understand just the idea of wanting some sort of control over your life. And I'm wondering if you're able to hand that control to them in other places? Would it lessen their desire to find that control in this?

Absolutely. And I think yeah, that's, I think we, we've talked a little bit about that. In our we talked about teens. I know, we'll probably talk about that as well later. But I think, yes, giving them finding the opportunities and the kind of Windows where you feel like you can hand over that control instead of micromanaging every aspect of your child's life and gret. And obviously, this changes over time and developmentally what they you feel like your child can handle and demonstrate that responsibility? But yes, I think giving them some other opportunities to say, okay, you can decide whether you want to wear your pink sweater or your blue sweater, you know, just like building that in letting them have those decisions in their lives where it doesn't really matter, I think will help in the long run. Yeah.

So from a caregiver perspective, I, my two questions are, how do they approach this problem and address it? And what could I be looking in to myself for that would get in the way of me handling this? Well? Because I feel like that, like why would they do this, to me, is a vibe I get from parents sometimes, like I put all this into this, why is this being like, why are they doing it? And you need to understand like, your kids are not doing anything to you. Like it's not an attack, but it feels like it. You know what I mean? And I think sometimes it feels like it more to some people than others. And I would imagine that has something to do with their problems growing up. But those are my two questions that I'm interested in what you think about the rest of it?

Yes. Okay. So how how to kind of move how to address the issue. You've seen your child, Snake food just based on either evidence of the blood sugars or you've caught them in the act so to speak. Or they've shared with you later, I think the first and foremost, I would always want to, if your child does come out and say, Well, yeah, you know, I did eat this two hours ago, to immediately go to just being grateful and thankful that they were being honest, as opposed to kind of going down the pathway of punitive. Because I think when we Google grant, we don't want to punish, at least from my perspective, personally, and then from my experience, collectively, professionally, working with families, children, if they are punished for making bad choices, or high blood sugars, that is going to spiral into the shame and avoidance and sneaking further, but saying, gosh, thank you so much for for sharing this with me. Let's How can we and having a dialogue, even if they're five years old, or two, or even three, I mean, granite younger than that might be challenging. But let's say 345 10, whatever age your child is, even up into teenagers, like how can we avoid this wetter and asking them like, are there? Are there foods that you feel like mommy or daddy or whoever's your caregiver doesn't allow you to eat? Because they might make a list of things that you have never, like we talked about in the beginning, you have maybe never have said you cannot eat these foods. But somehow they have learned that from yet externally public shame or questioning or from your response that you weren't aware of when you saw the number. And so asking them, are there things you feel like we can't You can't eat in this house? Right? I would start there. And then I would also go to, okay. What if they're a little bit older? If they are able to break it down? Like, were you thinking anything before or was I not around, and without assuming that they were sneaking to, maybe you were on a phone call, maybe you're busy, maybe they were just really hungry, and just were like, I need to eat this food right now. They get you know, they can be impulsive.

I have a note here right to myself to remind my to say at the end of this, that to be careful not to blame people if you're not 100% certain to because you could actually cause the problem. And you're just saying like, what if I just got so hungry, and I'm four years old, that's not sneaking food. It's right, I'm hungry. Yeah. You also made me remember that this might be a little too much. But um, when I was growing up, when I was 13, my father left my mom. And my brothers were five years younger than me, and five years younger again. So I'm 13, that makes my middle brother eight, and my youngest brother three. And my mom goes off to work to try to make up the difference. And I'm basically raising these two little kids after school. Now, I'm 13. Trust me, I did not know what I was doing. And you know it now in present time, I'll joke with my brothers all the time. And thank them, because I really got a lot of my bad ideas out on them. And really saved my as a

child parent,

is it Yeah, as a 13 year old parent, teaching myself to drive and take care of a three year old and stuff. But nevertheless, I saw that with my younger brother, I didn't know what to do. And punitive was the way any bad thing was addressed. Because it's all I could think of. And I will tell you that that was tough for him. And all it would do is cause him to hide things. Like we used to have this joke like Rob's either in trouble, and you're aware of it, or getting in trouble and you haven't found out yet. And and as we joked about that, and that rang in my head while you were talking, it really made me realize that all he was doing like, I didn't curb his behavior. He just hit it better. And that's not a resolution for him or me. He's okay, right now, for anybody who's listening. He's Yeah, he's not jail or anything like that. But that is, that's what you were making me think of when you were saying that. I don't know why I said that. But it felt like Yes, yeah.

Because you think you know, as a four year old who's coming home from preschool and needs a snack, they and they know where the snack buck bin is, or whatever, and they eat and that's it, you know, the child doesn't have type one, then you're not going to say well, how could How dare you go and get a bag of pretzels without telling mom? Yeah, I'm assuming mom, baby as we know, it could be dad or whoever is in the home. But I so I think we have to remind ourselves like okay, how would I yes, he has type one and I want to prevent the highs and I'm fearful of long term complications, because I think that's the sequencing. You know, your thought pattern, is that right? Or at least from what I've been told, and so going back to like, Okay, he's four, he's hungry. How can we How can we address this next time? Is it like, okay, like, and maybe going back to like, why as your second question is, okay, why the parent has clearly has solid competence and confidence and Bolus and for any food. And you've told your child time and time again that they can eat anything. And reminding them that we just need to Bolus beforehand whatever the timeframe is. And okay, so why is the child doing it couldn't be all of those factors. And now it's a you had all those conversations you've eliminated, okay, the child knows he can eat anything the child knows, he just needs to tell the parent that he wants to eat something. And yet he's still doing it, I think I would then look at Okay, how often is that happening? Is it is it a one off experience, because you know, just like, as caregivers, we are going to make mistakes, we are going to, we're not going to Bolus enough, we're not going to Pre-Bolus in enough time. And we have to practice that grace and forgiveness towards ourselves. We can offer we can model that for our children, and seeking from like a caregiver lens. And then we can also offer that to our children, because they're going to make mistakes. Now, if visit isn't happening every day, then I would go to my first two points of Okay, the child must feel like he can't have it. Or maybe he's just hungry, and we need to figure that out. But if it's a one off occasion, then I would just say you know what? We need to you know, offer that grace and forgiveness and you correct and move on.

Right? Hey, and if it happens over and over again, as a parent as the adult, do you at some point have to look at yourself and say, there must be some way I'm impacting this, it's causing this behavior to some degree.

I think that would be a helpful first or second step. Yes. If you've asked all the questions and say, Okay, how am I? What kind of messaging Am I giving whether explicitly or implicitly whether it's my facial expression, or noise, like you're looking at the if it's CGM, or meter, and you're like, right, like these simple things aren't, you know, toddlers can pick up on those noises and those size and even your body language, right? And so maybe kind of checking in with yourself is what is your your kind of gut response when you're looking at the numbers? Yeah,

so you and I haven't recorded together that much at this point. But I have learned one thing about you that I can't ask you to make a blanket statement because you won't do it. And but I do want to ask you because I want to close out this episode, but I want to just do one thing. How much of an adult's actions are they unaware of? Like, how many times do we do something for what we think is one reason, but really, it's not for that reason? Is it frequently throughout the day?

even as a child, how much are they aware of no idea

as an adult person who thinks that we're control of what we're doing? Like? How many how many times? Are our actions driven by something that we don't understand?

Wow, yeah, that's a whole nother episode. I don't know. I think it depends on how self aware are you? I mean, have you done the work in learning what your your thought patterns are? And how your thoughts affect your feelings? which affect your actions?

Let's say no. Right?

Like that. That's all connected? Yeah. Let's Oh, no, then yeah, you probably don't have a whole lot of self awareness. And so everything from you're raising your eyebrows, very subtle things that others can pick up on, you know, eyebrow raises size hands, like you haven't said a word and you've communicated a lot. Yeah. And so I think if you're not aware of, of your thought patterns, which connect to your actions, and also your feelings, then you probably are, you're communicating a whole lot more than you might even you are aware of.

Okay, and I want to add to that, thank you. I want to add to that, that it takes longer to fix than you think it would, because I've been absolutely I've been battling with this for a decade and a half now. And I'm much better today than I was. But at the beginning, anything that went wrong with diabetes, I was like, like it, like I just edit. And it just felt like it felt like you were trying to conquer something and you were falling off of it all the time. And I never had any intention of mirroring that to anybody in my life, but I did the people around me were like, Oh, my God, he's upset. And so I never felt upset. I just felt like God dammit. Like those little micro things. So anyway, I just wanted to make sure to put that in there. Thank you very much.

This was wonderful. He welcome. Thank you.

I want to thank Eric again, and remind you that if you live in California and are looking for a therapist, go to Erica Forsythe Calm, there's links in your show notes. If you're looking for the diabetes pro tip episodes, they begin at Episode 210 in your podcast player, or you can find them at diabetes pro tip.com or at Juicebox Podcast comm if you're just finding the show and getting started with management ideas, I really think you should begin with the defining diabetes series, which is also available diabetes pro tip comm or in your podcast player. And if you're listening in a podcast player right now you haven't subscribed or followed the show, please do. If you're enjoying the show, please share it with others. If you'd like to find some good conversation about type one diabetes, I suggest you check out the private Facebook group for the show Juicebox Podcast type one diabetes, answer a couple of quick questions to make sure you're a real person and you'll be let right then and there you will find GS over 10,000 listeners just like you talking about type one diabetes. I'm going to remind you again to go to T one d exchange.org. forward slash juice box and fill out that survey just takes a couple of quick minutes. If you're a type one yourself, or the caregiver of a type one, as a US resident, you'd really be helping other type ones and the show if you took the time to fill it out. And I thank you very much for considering that. This episode did not have any ads today. But I still want to thank the sponsors the Dexcom g six continuous glucose monitor the Contour Next One blood glucose meter, the Omni pod tubeless insulin pump, g Volk hypo pen and touched by type one.org. There are links everywhere to all the sponsors. And all I ask is that if you're looking for a great CGM, an accurate meter, a tubeless insulin pump for some really cool glucagon use my legs and of course, touched by type one is it touched by type one.org. They're also on Instagram and Facebook. I hope you go find them and check out what they're doing. Because what they're doing is wonderful. So if you're considering getting a Dexcom g six continuous glucose monitor, please use the link in the show notes or type in dexcom.com Ford slash juice box hey you know you may be eligible for a free 30 day trial of the Omni pod dash tubeless insulin pump on the pod comm forward slash juice box Arden uses the Contour Next One blood glucose meter and I find it to be the most accurate and easy to use blood glucose meter she has ever had. Contour Next one.com forward slash juice box find out about the G vo Kibo pen the glucagon that my daughter carries g vo glucagon comm forward slash juice box. I want to thank you again for listening to the show for making it the most popular type one diabetes podcast around and for sharing it with others because that is truly how it grows. There are days and today is one of them where I wish I could give you everything that I have recorded right now. Because there's so much good stuff coming. I feel weird, not just releasing at all but things don't work that way. And if I did that you'd never find it. So come on back next week, where there'll be three new episodes of the Juicebox Podcast just like every week. We'll see what we can find that fits your needs. I hope you know how much I enjoyed making this podcast for you. I'll talk to you soon.

Hello and welcome to Episode 479 of the Juicebox Podcast. Today, Erica Forsyth this back. You know, Erica, she's the licensed Marriage and Family Therapist from California. She's been on the show a number of times, and she's here today to answer a question from one of you about something very prevalent with teens living with type one. Please remember, while you're listening that nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise. Please always consult a physician before making any changes to your health care plan, or becoming bold with insulin. California residents if you're looking for a therapist, look no further than Erica forsyth.com. I'd like to remind you that if you're looking for the diabetes pro tip episodes or the defining diabetes episodes, they are right here in your podcast player. But you can also find them at Juicebox Podcast comm or diabetes pro tip comm if you're listening in a podcast player, please hit subscribe or follow. Thank you very much. The T one D exchange is looking for type one adults and type one caregivers who are us residents to participate in a quick survey that can be completed in just a few moments from your computer or phone. This survey is 100% anonymous, completely HIPAA compliant, and does not require you to ever see a doctor or go to a remote site. Why you say what a survey require that? Well, because this data is actually helping people living with type one diabetes, and I wouldn't want you to get confused and think oh, this is a trial. I might have to go see a doctor, huh? No, no, you can actually help people with type one. Without being in a trial without visiting a physician. You just go to T one d exchange.org. forward slash juicebox. Click on join our registering now, and then simply complete the survey. Once you've done that, your information, which again is completely anonymous, will be used to help other people living with type one diabetes, and it supports the podcast. Past participants like you have helped to bring increased coverage for test strips, Medicare coverage for CGM, and have broad changes in the ABA guidelines for pediatric a one c goals. Eric, I have a question here from Aaron. And she said she's trying to give her preteen son some freedom by not micromanaging everything. And he is very capable of calculating his carbs and doses knowing what to do, etc. But he gets lazy about it. It feels wrong to punish him. But if there's no consequences, then there seems like there's no incentive for him to try. Where's the line between keeping preteens accountable and not making them feel punished for having diabetes?

Great, great question. And obviously, this team's and type one is it's a challenging season. And I know in my professional work, I do work with a lot of teens and families who are kind of battling this this dynamic between the what the parents wanting to offer and give some independence. And teens either asking for it. Or, or sometimes as in this question, maybe not following through the way they said they were going to. And it's it's an all around challenging, excruciating experience, sometimes for some families, and I do want to offer hope that it's a season right, it might it's not going to last forever. But I know when you're in it, it can be feeling it feels really overwhelming and stressful. I would initially in response to this question. I think trying to find ways to incentivize instead of punish if that works, and maybe you've already tried that in your family, but I would sit down with with your teen and talk about Okay, how how can we either incentivize or offer rewards I wouldn't, I wouldn't necessarily structured around food or which could be complicated in and of itself, but maybe maybe the child the teen wants to have a sleep over or the team wants to learn how to drive get get their permit or get their license or maybe work towards earning. You know, whether it's some kind of reward A video game. And so maybe building in incentives for okay if you keep your your blood sugar's in range. For this percentage of time this week, we are going to do X. And if you do it again next week, you're going to get Y, something that but sitting down with them and asking for their participation engagement in that this is a big, kind of like a behavior chart, so to speak, but to incentivize instead of punish, because I think if that cycle begins, where the teen is feeling like, okay, I already feel punished enough for even having type one, which can be a thought, then how come and now I'm being punished for not taking care of something I don't even want

to have.

And, and so if that is the case, I would really get allow the child to allow your team to talk about that too, if you've if they're open to it. So that's just one one thought here in terms of instead of punishing, trying, incentivizing. I'll pause there, I can keep going.

I have a question. Have I ever told you about chainsaw? About what the chainsaw? No, okay, I just said chainsaw because you would have known if I said it. So I have an episode that I don't believe is out yet. And I know that sounds funny that I'm not certain if it's out yet or not. But I'm a one man show over here. Okay, so I'm a little busy. woman has a teenage son, who really you know, wants to graduate from high school and start a business cutting down trees. And the kid wants a chainsaw. chainsaw is kind of expensive. And while we're talking, she also brings up that she can't get him to Pre-Bolus. And I said, and this is important to remember when you hear me talk that I have no training whatsoever. But what I said was, Well, listen, let me ask you a question. He'll never hear this. Are you gonna get him the chainsaw? And she goes, yeah. And I said, Okay, I said, Why don't you just give him $1? Every time he Pre-Bolus. And tell him Look, I know that sounds like it might be forever, but it's really not. If this sauce, $400, you can Pre-Bolus three times a day, in 30 days, you know, you could be a quarter of the way to your chainsaw, and the money will pile up quicker, and I'll pay you to priests, I'll pay you to Pre-Bolus a snack like you might end up Pre-Bolus and seven times a day. And and I said just I make you're going to spend the money anyway. And that became important to me, because she didn't have a ton of money. He didn't mean she couldn't just go like, leave in a golden trail of dollar bills around the house for the kid. I said, if it's money you're going to spend Anyway, you know what I mean? Like, I was like, let's repurpose that for this. And and I said to me, that's, I mean, the kid doesn't want anything more than that in the whole world, right? And I said, so if you have to trick a 16 year old into learning to Pre-Bolus, then who cares? Because after you get to that the cost of the chainsaw, he really will have done it long enough for to form a habit, I would think, did I give that person bad advice? Or do I do okay, no, I

think it's great. And I think what's important is what the carrot that you're dangling, has to be something that they are longing for. Yeah, it's not just like, Can I go to the movies or whatever? Like, I think it has to unless you want to start small. You know, some people do want to have smaller incentives. And they they get that kind of immediate gratification, which is important in the teenage years to like, they want to know that what they're doing, they're going to be rewarded for a Ross, what's the point? So some, some teens can hold out and say, Okay, I'm going to, I'm going to save and save and save. And I'm going to be incentivized by this, this chainsaw. I love it. So really sitting down with your teen and saying, Look, what is something and you probably already even know is the parent at that point. What is it that they are really longing for? And it could be something

that they

say what is something you're really wanting, but you think you're never going to be able to get or afford? Or ever made to like something that's really thrilling to could be helpful? Yeah, everyone's great.

You got to stop and give the horse some of the carrot. You can't just expect it. Yeah, get right. And to be honest, I see a lot of parenting like this, like you're just constantly mentioning things are gonna happen in the future. Even if you just set them up as psychological payoffs. Like, you know, if you do this, this is going to happen, that needs to happen then, you know, like, because, you know, I have to like just to kind of divert for a second. My son's played baseball, like his whole life, like he really has, and since he was three years old, right, right. As he was turning four, he started playing organized baseball, and he still plays now and he's 21 organized. And I used to have this horrible feeling while I was little, that a big a big moment never came to him. He was never up in a big moment. He was never like, and when he was 11, he caught the last ball of a championship game. And I'm telling you, there was a bigger smile on his face than I'd ever seen. And it had something to do with the fact that that game felt more important that it had some, you know, gravitas attached to it. And that he felt like he's the one that ended that. And so sometimes you got to get paid back, like he played just as well on all the games before that, but he never got the feeling that he got out of that one scenario. And so you got to get that feeling once in a while. Or the incentive to keep trying is harder and harder to cultivate,

I think. Right, right. Because as as a teen, particularly, you're not thinking about the future. You're not saying oh, well, if I don't Pre-Bolus now, yeah, I'm gonna have a high after I eat. Yeah. But I'm not thinking about oh, maybe I'll have long term complications when I'm 40 or 30. Whatever.

Well, it's their brains work that way. There wouldn't be any teen pregnancy cuz, cuz I cuz as an adult, you know, how scared you are when you think you're gonna get somebody pregnant? But no one, no one feels that way. When they're 17 for some reason.

There's, it's impulsive. And you know, instant gratification. Yeah. And I think they're, yes. So allowing them to receive some sort of reward, whatever that is, if you're working towards that, if they're needing to incentivize, I think it's important to do that. Yes. Well,

I am glad that I did not lead that person astray. Yeah, no, it's good. Sometimes I'm just like, I get done. Sometimes, like I say, a lot of stuff. I wonder if it's all okay. But I felt really comfortable about that. And it was one of those things. Actually, that was one of those great episodes where we were just talking through a thing. Like she didn't have any reason to come on. She's having like some sort of like a thing. And I was like, come on, and we'll just talk about it, like two people on the phone together. And let's see what we can come up with, you know. Okay, so I have a question here from Bridget, it says, I'd like to understand how to foster a growing independence in a teenager while still keeping a safety net. And I imagine, as you do, I guess, the safety net, she means is the Health Net of safety. Not getting too low or too high or? Yes, yeah. Okay. Yes.

So I think it's important to understand that it's a great and very common question as well, that what what teams are going through, and we might have all have a general idea that, you know, they want to be independent, they feel like they're, they know everything they know what's best for them. One analogy that I've read in a book years ago, and recently came across from a book called the yard sticks, is it talks about the analogy of the particularly like the 12 1314 year old, and the significance of their room in the house, like it becomes if they don't have their own room yet, or if they do have their own room, their own personal bedroom becomes very significant that they get to decorate, they get to become kind of the, the king or queen, so to speak of their of their territory. But it's significant to think about, that their bedroom is still a part of the house, right? So they're saying, I'm here, but I'm separate. And, or I'm here, but look who I am now. So they're able to kind of exercise some authority control independence over who they are. And they get to kind of make all those choices, right. But with that, then as a parent, you get to have these conversations with your team saying, Okay, if you are, if you are kind of owning your territory of your bedroom, I'm going to be handing over some responsibility, I'm not going to be coming in there and cleaning up your room or doing your laundry. So with that sense, along with their increased freedom, and their need for freedom. And these years, also comes the responsibility. And I think that is the struggle, right, as a teen as they're trying to create their own identity is how do I how do I balance this? Is the team thinking or not thinking about acting? Well, at the time, how do I balance this freedom and responsibility. And also just kind of thinking through and I'll apply this to type one in the second hair, that a parent, they are they shouldn't be afraid to knock on the child's door, right? The bedroom door, but it should be allowed. And so you're kind of shifting slightly, this locus of control, right? If the bedroom is off limits, the parent is knocking, and the child's going to let them in. But you're not relinquishing parental total parental authority, but you're shifting that locus of control. And ultimately, teens, they want to talk to their parents, they really do. And parents want to talk to their teens, but they really don't know how. And so I think going back before addressing the type one I think it might be really significant for for you as the parent and caregiver to understand what it is They are actually going through as a teen to not relinquish parental authority, but to shift some of that control over to them. And then they're you might need to initiate that conversation. And I think remembering that as teens, they just want to be heard. And so I would strongly suggest that parents say little, and listen a lot. And if you do need help in that department of just kind of going back to the basics of re establishing a relationship with your teenager, a really excellent book is by Adele Faber and Elaine Maas lish. The book is titled, how to talk so kids will listen and listen, so kids will talk. Again, that's by Faber and mazlish. So that if you are finding that you are having this battle with your teen around type one, I would maybe take a step back first is the parent and say, Okay, how can I enter my child's world through their lens as a teenager? So that's just kind of my first my first thought.

Can I add? I can pause? Yeah, go ahead. No,

I want to add there that I think I found for myself, I guess I should say that my recollection of my young life is probably not 100%, reminiscent of what it was actually like, or what I was thinking back then. So when you're kids going through a thing, it's so easy to think like, Oh, I remember this, like, but you probably don't, you probably don't really remember what it was like to be that age. And to have those feelings. Um, it's funny, you brought it up as an example about the room. Because when COVID started, and I started noticing a Kelly and I both started noticing art and going a little stir crazy. Arden said, I want to, you know, I was thinking I'd like to redo my room. And there's that first reaction really is nothing wrong with the room you have now and I would like to keep the money I have in my pocket, if you don't mind. But But yeah, but fair enough. She's older now. And she wanted to redo it. And we we let her repaint we let her replace her bed. And she wanted like a table with chairs. And she set it up. It's very much like a studio apartment now and not like a kid's bedroom. She's

Yeah, How old is she?

She's gonna be 17 this summer.

Yeah, yeah, that's right.

Yeah, it's got a little round table with four chairs around it and a lamp which she said when my friends are over and we eat, we can eat around this table. And there it's easy as an adult to listen to that and go I bought a table. It's downstairs.

Dining? Yeah.

Well, we were like, okay, and she said in the bed takes up too much space, I'm gonna get a smaller bed. And your first thought is, well, you have like a double bed. You want to go to a single. And wouldn't that be less comfortable. But that's not what she cared about what she cared about was making more space. She got rid of her dressers and put a system inside of her her closet and moved all of her clothes into her closet. And and she made it exactly the way she wanted it. If I showed you Arden's room, you'd say it doesn't look anything like any kid's bedroom that you've ever seen. And she loves it. And I, the way I can tell is that every couple of months when I'm in there, she'll make, she'll just, she'll comment a little bit, ask me a question. Do you still like the color I picked? I said, I do. It's great. How do you like it? She's like, it's good. I was like, Okay, he's still like that I took up the carpet. I said, I think it's nice, it's easier to clean. What about you know, I hear the noise from downstairs a little more now. And, and just to let her have that experience, it was a really big deal. And, you know, bonus, it took months. So it can write a capper focused on something she was, she was like the project manager of her room redesign, you know, and what ends up costing us in the end, not very much, you know, it was good,

right? And how much, you know, like we were talking about earlier, like authority and agency that she feel over her life of being able to do that, like what and you know, it's such that's an excellent example of finding those opportunities to relinquish control. I mean, with within, right, then you probably had a budget and you had some probably constraints around that. We did, but you said Go Go for it. Yep. Right.

Within this amount of money, you can do whatever you want. Right, right. Also, what it led to then, was I used to separate her clothing. I don't fold the kids clothes, but I'll lay them in like flat piles so they don't get wrinkled and give them to them. But ardens would sit in my room. And then once she had more space in her room, I was like, Oh, well, I can sit in her room now. So I know I take it and I put it in this spot. And I've noticed her being more diligent about putting her clothes away, and it didn't happen all at once. It took a lot of time for her to go Okay, I guess no one's gonna put this away. It's on me. Then she's got to find time in her schedule. Then she got to find the energy to actually do it and then she's gonna have to care about it. enough to do it. That took months and I, I think very fervently about parenting, that my job is really to repeat the same thing over and over again without sounding annoyed until somebody figures it out. And, and that's sort of how I saw this thing. Like I didn't, I didn't say, hey, look, you're now in charge of this, take care of it. You know, do it right now. And if you don't do it the first time, I'm gonna yell and scream at you. I just kept piling the clothes up. And one day, I think the pile fell over. And she's like, dude, I guess I got to do this. And right, that's how it went.

Well, and that's, that is like, such a great example of she was going through that struggle of like, Okay, I've got increased freedom in some areas. But now I've got this responsibility of putting my laundry away. So she kind of went through that struggle until it became like, okay, it's bothering me, I'm going to show some responsibility and put it away of my own things, right?

Yeah, it is unreasonable to expect it because you tell somebody to do something, they're suddenly going to shift everything in their brain that tells them what to do and just start doing it. It doesn't, you know, things don't work that way, I don't think.

Right. And I think then, applying that to the type one, we were in lies the fear factor of oh my gosh, okay, my, my teen wants his independence wants the freedom in management, and making choices and you know, all of it, but they're, but they're going through this struggle, this identity struggle of, they don't quite have full responsibility. And yet they're wanting to freedom, right? And so,

I was gonna say, and when they do it wrong, it's not a pile of clothes falling over, it's a blood sugar going to 55 or 355. And then how do you manage the the slowed necessity of transition with the immediate need of safety and health. Just gonna jump in here real quickly and remind you of three things. First thing, p one d exchange.org. forward slash juicebox. If you have type one, or you're the caregiver of someone who who has type one, and you live in the United States, this is something you can do in just a few minutes. That will immeasurably help other people living with Type One Diabetes. You can do it from your phone, from your tablet, from your computer, from your sofa, you don't even have to get up. Go take the quick survey. The information that you leave behind will be anonymous, HIPAA compliant, and help a lot of people living with Type One Diabetes, T one d exchange.org. forward slash juicebox. also want to remind you that if you're looking for the diabetes pro tip episodes, they begin in Episode 210, your podcast player. You can also find them at Juicebox Podcast calm or at diabetes pro tip calm at diabetes pro tip calm you'll also find the defining diabetes series. And of course, Erica for Saif Eric is available to California residents at Erica Forsyth comm links in the show notes. Links at Juicebox. Podcast calm. Now let's get back to Erica. The slowed necessity of transition with the immediate need of safety and health

there Yeah,

therein lies the struggle for the parent, child and parent teen relationship, right where you as the parent as a caregiver are fearful. So you see that the numbers going up or down. And then the next thought is fear. And you want to you know, you want to protect your child, as a caregiver, you want to do everything you can to protect your child no matter what age. And I think going back to Okay, is this is this a one off? example? Is has my team demonstrated kind of general patterns of independence, I think I think just kind of like with anything, you need to let them earn your trust. And so maybe it's okay. You know, Bobby is saying as a 14 year old or whatever age but around 14, he's saying he wants to be able to look at his numbers and Pre-Bolus without consultation, right? Like that's what they ultimately Well, they want to be able to make decisions independently, right? So you say okay, we are, we are going to give you this opportunity for us to earn trust in you that you can do this. And so you try it for you start with whatever. And you can chart it out to I've done this with families were like okay, we're gonna try this out. You're gonna do it on Monday afternoon, and then we're going to do Wednesday afternoon and then we're going to increase kind of the frequent the time, the length of time and the frequency to say okay, you did great job. No Knowing that just like as caregivers, there are going to be, you know, mishaps. So I think, offering them these opportunities to demonstrate that they can do it. So then you're saying, hey, I want to I want you help me to trust you, right? You need to earn the trust, just like with anything like with driving, taking other, you know, kind of adult life decisions, and building in a plan with them. Yeah. And having their input i think is always significant of like, what do you think feels fair? Should we let you make decisions for all day on Monday? Or should it just be for dinner?

What do you think about when to step in? Because, so I'm a long Yeah, I'm a long range guy. Like, I'm, I'm definitely one of those people. Like, if I'm gonna rob a bank, I'm not gonna do it for five years, and I'm really going to get it right. And so, you know, during this pandemic thing, there's been times where Arden's in a room, you know, doing classes in the morning, and I'm in here working. And once in a while she's here, she walks by doesn't say anything, I see her go downstairs, she comes back up with a arm full of food. And I look at her, I go, Hey, and she goes, I got it. And she doesn't got it. Like, I know she thinks she does. But she'll never Pre-Bolus enough, right? Because she's 16. And so I go, okay. And then she goes, and I think of that is like, I'm building trust. She knows I trust her, she'll take care of it. But then there's a moment where if it doesn't go, Well, Bolus wise, I kind of roll up to her and I go, Hey, that Bolus was pretty good. I said, I think it just maybe wasn't enough here. We're gonna have to add a little more now. No big deal, this will be fine. And I let it go. And I let it go. And I let it go. And I've been doing that for six or eight months now. And with the long range goal of her understanding, oh, I am trying but it's not quite working. But it doesn't seem to be too bad. And then it kind of culminated into this morning where she wanted Cinnamon Toast Crunch where we didn't have time to Pre-Bolus. And I mean, it's now been an hour since I told you that. So it's been so long ago that I told you about this in a different episode of the podcast. Okay. Yeah. And and Arden's blood sugar right now, if I told you that she had cinnamon toast crunch, without more than a seven minute Pre-Bolus and then I did not measure the milk or the cereal. What would you guess her blood sugar is right now

that you didn't that you didn't measure that? She did? No, nobody

measured it. It just got poured into a bowl, and then poured into the ball. If you had to guess in most situations, what do you think our blood sugar would be an hour later?

Oh, I would probably say in the to 200 300. Yeah, it's 118.

So yeah, but I that. But I wanted her to see that there was a way to Bolus something that she thought of as vicious on her blood sugar without such a Pre-Bolus. So So now in my mind, she's got a connection, she knows she Pre-Bolus is but not enough when she's on her own, and that it needs to be fixed. But today, she gets to see no Pre-Bolus that doesn't need to get fixed. I just want her to see. While there's a lot of possibility in here, maybe this isn't as strict as I think it is. And maybe this old man knows something he should be telling me that I maybe should be listening to like, And to me, that's a long term plan because I could have walked up to her and told her that but I don't know what good that's gonna do. Anyway,

so what kind of Yeah, so teaching, you're, you're you're teaching, you're modeling, and you're you're giving her opportunities to see different variables to write, I think that's helpful. Like you can, within reason, and if you're able to manage, eat quickly, or you know, not waiting for whatever your Pre-Bolus, designated tinus. And then she gets to gain that independence over time. That's it, and you guys have a great relationship to trust. It sounds

like you know, and I haven't had to give away any of her long term health to accomplish this hurry one still, or a one C is still in the fives. So it's not it's not like that's the one thing that I see people say that always like, turns the screw in my heart the wrong way. It's that, well, they want to take over now. So okay, they're a once he's gonna go from six to nine. But at least they're figuring out I'm like, I don't that doesn't seem like a good idea to me. And there's gotten that me seeing other people do that made me think long and hard about like, how are we going to do this transition without that happening? And I don't know that I'm going to be successful. Yeah, but I'm just these are the steps I've taken so far. And I yeah, I mean, and our relationship is good. I mean, but she's still 17 like, she still you know, says horrible things to me and treats me like I'm a moron. You know, sometimes, and, and I still like, you know, go off the handle sometimes. And I'm like, Oh, my God, like, you know, like, everything seems irritating. I'm a person too. And I didn't exactly grow up. Well, if you're listening to this podcast into this many episodes, you realize I'm almost feral. Like it's it's weird that I ended up even okay. So, uh, you know, anyway, that that's pretty much it. I think that's smart. Well, I

think I think you were asking you had brought up, you know, when when do you intervene, right? So to prevent either the increase, you know, the raise in your agency or to prevent, you know, the long term complications, I think going back to always asking inviting your team into the conversation of like, okay, on Wednesday, we're going to allow you, or, you know, we're going to give you this opportunity to earn our trust. Now, what? together, let's determine what number Am I good? Okay, am I going to intervene? And getting to and you write it down, and you have that agreement with your team to say, okay, is it gonna be 150? With the arrows, you know, diagonally? Or is it gonna be whatever it is? Right, like, it'd be very clear if you're on a CGM, is it?

You know, now we're in 20 minutes

isn't an hour at the time, the arrow position and the number? Yeah. And then you say, okay, and I'm going to text and then what? And then really clearly as inviting the teams, okay, what is our text message going to be like, if they're at school, and one thing is interesting, but I have heard that you've kind of noted during COVID, teams have have done a little bit better. And this is not obviously, across the board, but from what I've heard at home, because you can just kind of you can all manage it together. But you also don't have that pure factor. And so if you are finding as your teams are re entering into school, and you know, so called normal life, and you're seeing maybe a little bit more of this, either defiance, or desire to be independent, or forgetting to Bolus number one, that's, that's just normal. And then number two, kind of inviting your team back into that conversation of like, Okay, this is how we were doing during COVID. I know, it's not always going to be this way. But how can we how can we kind of reestablish what was happening at home and create kind of those expectations and boundaries, but it is, it is a constant challenge. And well, I don't have I have two little girls. I don't have teens yet. But I've worked with a lot of teens professionally and I know what I was like as a teen. And it wasn't always pretty. And so I just I, I cheerlead you, and support you. And just remembering that it's not going to last forever. That is important, too.

It is hard when you're younger, because everything I mean, as a younger parent, like everything feels like now is forever. And it really isn't like I you know, I'm almost 50 and I have a 21 year old son and I guess I might be young tab a 21 year old a little bit but I you know, you you look back and you're like, Oh, I remember being so worried about that. And it didn't end up mattering. But it didn't matter in the moment. It just, it doesn't matter now. Like there's a there's a now there's micro and macro to everything. And there's there's what's important now and what later you'll be like, Oh, I guess not nice. That wasn't really important. I can't believe I spent so much time on that. Do you have enough time to talk about kids burning out on technology in this episode? Or do you have to go

Yes, yes, no, we can. And I before we transition into that, I was just gonna I was thinking I just listened to the episode of the three girls in the Cayman Islands, which was just fabulous. And it made me think of you know, this here they are, they could be feeling isolated on the island as as a type one but yet they have each other and the significance of for your teen if they really are struggling with that, you know why me I feel so isolated I just want to be like my friends. If they are open to it, you know I do encourage you to kind of maybe their outreach through your your endo or whatever your treatment team is to see if you can connect your team with other teams whether and now with you know, every everyone's very comfortable of with remote and virtual correspondence. To integrate that into your team's life whether it's just a phone call or a zoom or FaceTime, whatever it is just to kind of decrease that sense of of isolation and like an I don't feel normal type feeling right. And I want to be like my parents I just that was just my life. What

wasn't interesting to see the three of them they you know, you hear kids like I just want to be like my friends. There's these three girls living on this island with not that many people and they are just like their friends.

They have so beautiful. Yeah,

yeah. Yeah. wasn't a great too, that they were too young to feel trapped. Like when I was like, No, how would you get away like and then I like a ramped it up. I was like if Godzilla came How would you get away and they're like, I don't know. Like, they don't even think of it as that way. me as an adult. I'm like you are trapped in a tiny rock in the middle of the ocean. You're gonna die. If they didn't see it that way. They were really lovely. Actually. Yeah, yeah, I enjoyed that a lot. Okay, so, you know, Heather's like how? Yeah, she says, How do you help your child work through burnout. She says she has a nine year old who was diagnosed just over a year. ago. They're using you know CGM and pomp for almost a year. But she feels like they've hit the wall with technology. I hear people say this a lot. I have to admit, I don't know that I understand it. And because then they say, I think we might need to take a break. And even though As parents, we don't want to,

yes, yes.

I'm always weirded out by that, like, so I I'm a bad person to ask because I really have a, I really have a 1978, northeast version of an answer for this, which is kids don't get to make medical decisions in my house.

Right. Right, right.

Because I will always like what else you're gonna put the 14 year old in charge of paying the mortgage, like, you know, they're 14. But right, what's the rest of it that I don't that I don't think about?

Well, I Well, two thoughts. Yeah. For number one, personally, I have felt that way. I actually was on, I did what we used to call just shots without a deal MDI, I gave myself shots and took my blood sugar, a finger pricks for the kind of first third of my so called diabetes career. And then I transitioned to a pump and college. And again, I'm not giving medical advice, you want to do this with consultant, you know, if you ever decide to do this, consult with your doctor first. But I remember feeling like I just wanted to take the pump off. And if I did that, and I would say, Oh, I'm gonna take the pump off for a week, and I'm gonna go back to injections. And I and I did consult with my doctor, and they told me how to do it giving, you know, do the lantis this amount and do this, you know, I was taking I think regular at the time. And I didn't even last a week, because it was so irritating, to like have to be constantly giving myself injections. And the same and so I probably put the pump back on within the next day or two. Because I'm like, you know what, I'm kind of irritated by having my pump. Because really, it's just like, it's the thing that's on your body that can get annoying, and I get it. And so you feel like mentally if I remove this pump, I'm not gonna have to be thinking about it. Maybe my type one is much. But then then you're having to constantly go back to what you used to be doing. And it's kind it's irritating, too. And I had this experience with the Dexcom or the CGM. I have a Dexcom. And I don't know when this was, but I think I think my time had lapsed, it was 10 days, I was gonna remove it. I'm like, You know what? I just I kind of want to have a break mentally from having it on wherever it was on my body. And I'm gonna do finger pricks, and I did not last through a full 24 hours. So I'm like, What am I thinking? Like, I don't know, I'm so used to knowing my trends and where I am. And I'm having to fingerprick you know, and I would do it 10 or 15 times a day like pretty. It's a lot, right. And I'm like, Oh my gosh, I cannot wait to get the CGM back on and so I don't know again. only do this with the with the support of your doctor. But it might be worth trying. Because then your child might wonder like, Oh my gosh, it's so much easier having these my pump or CGM on me. Anyway, that's my first. Sorry. Go ahead.

any correlation? I'm glad you had a personal experience with it because it makes it so much more real. But is there any correlation to you know, when you see somebody break up with somebody? They're like, Oh, this guy's my problem. And then three days later, you're like, turns out he wasn't why I was upset now. I miss him. And you know, like, Is there any of that? Like, is that true? That's called transference in the business. Right? Like, were you mad about one something? You put it on something else? Yeah, every married guy right now listening is laughing their ass off. They're like, Oh, is that what that's called? That's what that's called what happens to me is it? But But yeah, like that, that idea of like, I'm just like, I'm irritated. And I'm aware of this must be my problem. And, and I just I'm so thrilled that that's what you said. Because, yeah, go ahead, break up with me. And I'll wait over here. For you to realize maybe that wasn't a good idea. Like maybe your pump is just sitting in a drawer go and she'll be back. You know, like,

absolutely, yeah, yeah. Wait, yeah, she let's just count down. Yeah,

I'll take a break. She'll be back soon. Don't you worry. She doesn't like, that makes so much sense to me. So don't fight it.

I mean, that would be my suggestion. And because I think there is something too, though. Yes, it is the like, Okay, I'm frustrated with like, it's, it's can be annoying having type one, right, like you're having to think about all the time. And then you have this visual reminder. And it can get caught on things and all you know, all the and it can fall off. And that can be frustrating. But I think ultimately, once you take a break from all of the incredible technology that we do have and you go back to, you know, the injections in the fingerprick. So you kind of realize, wow, I still have type one. And doing all this is is more frustrating and irritating than actually just having the pump on or the CGM on but then That's kind of a nice thing, because then you're like, Oh, I'm so grateful for this. The thing that I couldn't wait to rip off, I go back and say, Oh, I'm so grateful for this CGM. Yeah. So it's kind of this beautiful process and allowing that to happen i think is okay. Given you know, your own know if you feel you feel safe doing it right, yeah.

When one day Kelly kicks me out, right? I know that like a month or two later she's gonna be walking around is like dust bunnies collect around her feet. And she'll go, Oh, I didn't know he was taking care of that. Right? I should be like, Oh, I wonder what else he was doing? I have to tell her if she's ever listened to this? Where do you find out all this stuff I do that you don't have to do? You know, like, it's um, and I do think that about the technology as well. And you made me think a little bit about I know, we're wrapping up. But you made me think a little bit about people who have other medical issues where they can't get away from their technology ever. And it made me realize how lucky you are to have diabetes, that there is an alternative treatment method where you could at least experience it without and by the way, for people who don't use the tech who are doing fine. I think that's terrific. This is just Oh, yeah, this is for people who this was specifically the idea about burnout about technology about like, Oh, I have to get away from this or it's bothering me. But maybe it is just a reminder of the fact that you have diabetes, and you're just going to find a different reminder when those are gone and make your maintenance more, you know, heavier. We're Yes. cumbersome somehow.

Yes, yes.

And you said, I'm sorry, Jeff, another thing you want to say about that? Did I cut you off in the middle of getting a no?

No, I think? Yeah, I think that that was kind of the gist of it. And allowing, allowing your child to be angry at the technology is okay. Because ultimately, we know, we probably are just angry and frustrated and sad about having the LMS. And so sometimes it's easier to be angry at the things that we need to take care of ourselves. And to say, gosh, you know what, allowing, allowing for those emotions, and giving your child space to maybe they're not verbalizing it, but they're saying it by like, please rip this thing off with me. It's that's okay. And then just to kind of give space to that. Yeah.

And they'll likely get back to it.

Yes,

I think so. Because you realize that, that the anger doesn't go away. And then you need to, then that's a new thing to address.

But so right. Right. Right, then that you allow that whether it's through your conversation with your parents, or or therapist, or whomever your support group, yeah, let that come out.

Yeah. And it? I'll tell you, it exists. And I think we'll probably answer this question another time when we record but it exists at ages that you don't expect, because there was a time when Arden was maybe five or six, where she told me just out of the blue, and I would have told you that Arden does great with diabetes, I don't see her thinking about it too much. Like all the, you know, when people are like kids are so brave, I always think like, they're not really brave, they just don't have another choice. You know, like there's a difference between bravery and not having a choice. bravery is, you know, you're across the street and a car blows up and you go pull somebody out of it, even though there are other people that are helping and, and not having choices, you're in the car, and you need to get out anyway, you know, like that. There's right there. And so she says to me, we have a friend who has a child who's I don't even know what the correct term is, but has some some mental deficiency that that impacts a child's life. And she said, I'd rather be him than me. And she was like six or seven. I was like, why? And she goes because I can die from this. He's not gonna die from that. And I was like, wow, I did not know that my seven year old had the bat grasp of all this. And so and so it's easy to say kids don't understand deeper things. But I think they do. And I think they're good at hiding it. And I think you could end up seeing that as bravery. So just because they seem right doesn't mean they don't need support, and they don't have deep understandings of the situation that they're in.

That's how I feel, right? Yeah. So we often say you know, that children are resilient and we've been talking a lot about that right through COVID and that they are going to transition and be okay. But underneath Yes, they are resilient, and they can persevere, but they still can have that. That sadness underneath their resilience and that's that's okay. Yeah,

just because your eight year old doesn't turn to heroin doesn't mean they're not under pressure. It just seriously because that's what you're talking right. Yeah, right. resilient because they don't have another choice and you're in charge of their life and they're stuck in a room like you don't mean like they're not. If you if you let an eight year old out on the street and put too much pressure on it. It I can't believe I said it him or her. It they'll fall apart just like a 45 year old would have that situation. They just don't have the opportunity all the time. And that's why I'm imagining. You see kids internalize, internalize, internalize, and then it turns to something much more drastic when they lash out Finally,

is that fair? Right? Yes. Yeah, I wouldn't know. And maybe they have the the ability, the develop, they've developed to a place where they can identify and express you know, their emotions, then that will come out. Yeah. Well, Erica, thank

you very much for doing this with me again, I am having a great time, I think of you as emotional journey. so

wonderful. I appreciate that. Thank you guys. Seriously.

Hey, huge thanks again to Erica for coming back on the show. She'll be back again. So look out for it in upcoming episodes. You can find her at Erica forsyth.com. You can find the diabetes pro tips, the defining diabetes series, and so much more at Juicebox Podcast calm or diabetes pro tip calm. And please take just a few minutes out of your day to go to T one d exchange.org. forward slash juice box and fill out the survey. All they're asking you to do fill out the survey and your answers will help others living with Type One Diabetes, you have to have type one or be the caregiver of type one. And be a United States citizen. Head over there now support the Juicebox Podcast support people living with Type One Diabetes. T one d exchange.org. forward slash juicebox. Thank you so much for listening. I'll be back soon with more episodes of the Juicebox Podcast.

Hello friends, and welcome to Episode 514 of the Juicebox Podcast. Hey, Erica Forsyth is back. You remember Erica, she's a licensed marriage and family therapist who herself has type one diabetes, actually for more than three decades. She specializes in working with people with diabetes, and their families and caregivers. Today, she and I are going to talk about a lot of interpersonal stuff, relationships, managing type one when you're married, or with a partner. What happens when one of you is a little better at it than the other? All kinds of different topics today, Erica has been on the show a number of times. So if you enjoy her, check out Episode 407-440-5479 and 473. You would have thought I would have done this in order but I didn't. Please remember while you're listening that nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise, please always consult a physician before making any changes to your health care plan, or becoming bold with insulin. If you live in California, and you'd like to hire Erica, you can do that. I'll put our contact information in the show notes at the end of the episode. This episode of The Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by touched by type one, please check them out. They have a mission to elevate awareness of type one diabetes, raise funds to find a cure and inspire those with diabetes to thrive. They have a ton of programs, you can find out all about them at touched by type one.org. Now if you love the Facebook, they're there and Instagram just the same. So Instagram, Facebook, and touched by type one.org. At that link find out about their annual conference, their dance program. They have a beautiful program where they send out information to newly diagnosed people. They call that their D box program. You can go right now and ask for a D box. Listen, it's a great organization. I speak at their events every chance I get. I'm really excited to support them. Don't forget that their programs and services are for those living with the daily reality of type one diabetes. They offer a supportive community with many interactive programs and creative resources designed to empower one to thrive with T one day. If you're interested, there are links in your show notes and links at Juicebox Podcast comm your comms Erica? Hi, Erica. How are you? Hi, good morning. Doing well. How are you? You're doing well even though I ghosted you last time we were supposed to record. Yes, okay. We can still be friends. I'm apologizing in front of people. So that you know, I mean, because I've been told that my apologies do not seem sincere. And so I want to make sure that I'm being sincere. I just messed up. And actually my calendar messed up. But I also know it's important not to blame other things when you're apologizing. So it's my fault.

Honestly,

I accept your apology. Thank

you. It's Apple's fault. If we're being clear. We have a couple of questions here that seem to go together. This one from Katie, how do I handle disagreements between caregivers over management approaches? And she's sort of got a secondary question here that I think goes right along with it. And she says, How do I handle when one person is better at managing than the other? So that seems like a real interpersonal question, right?

Yes, well, I think when we're thinking about caregivers, and couples, tried to co parent and co manage their child's diabetes, I would first want to take a step back and assess how is your relationship doing in general, while the diabetes could be significant, interfering and how and how you're relating as a couple? Are there? Were there other issues prior to the diagnosis? I would want to assess you know, your communication, your emotional and physical intimacy? And maybe say Is it is it appropriate before diving into how to manage the diabetes? Is it appropriate to go and maybe do some therapy or some work around your basic kind of communication skills and understanding of how you relate to one another? So that would be my first step. But if you feel like you're in a good place, as in your in your relationship with your partner, and things are going well in, in other areas of your life, then I would look at that then dive into the type One and first maybe understand I think, in your in your world to Scott, that it's just it's pretty natural for one caregiver to kind of be the primary caregiver. And that happens because as we know, it takes a lot of time and consistent work and understanding of all the nuances of how your child's blood sugar goes up and down based on food and exercise and all the small intricacies around that. So it takes time and unless both caregivers from the beginning, are equally spending the same amount of time understanding all of that it's natural for one caregiver to to understand it better.

Yeah. Sorry, go ahead. I

want to ask is this what it's making me feel like is this what would be commonly put under the heading of correlation does not imply causation? The people, people don't really like, I hear what you're saying, like you've now introduced this new thing into your life. But it's not as if we're all wrong walking around in a perfect existence. And now we have a problem. We have a lot of little problems that many of us have learned how to ignore, not necessarily deal with. And now this thing's pushed to the to the forefront. It is not ignorable, right, you can't you can't look away from yours or your child's diabetes, the way you could look away from snoring spouse, or you know, something, you know, even more, you know, impactful is that is that what you're saying here is like, you kind of got to get your ducks in a row before you can tackle this thing.

If you had the time, and we're able to do that, because I think if there are other underlying issues that you have either been ignoring, or you can still kind of function in that, you know, a normal, you know, quote, normal way, in a in a relationship. That's, that's one thing, right? Like, if you're, you're functioning, you're doing your work, maybe you're you're managing your children, whether you both are, you know, working in home or not are outside the house. But then yes, like this, this pace you can't ignore, you can only ignored, you know, you ignore the dishes ignored, like your responsibilities in the home. Yeah. And eventually, something will happen. But yes, you can't ignore this. But this could be this diagnosis could be the moment when you realize you know what, that we do need to deal with these other issues as well in our marriage or our relationship, so that we can then move forward together, whether that means one person is the primary caregiver of the type one or they you both are, but I would really encourage couples. For example, if they do come to work with me, we will work on the diabetes piece. But often I will encourage them to also go to either marital or relational therapy, to address kind of these other underlying issues.

I'm going to say something that you might find crazy. But but that's amazing advice. And if anybody wants my opinion, go do that. But if you're not going to do it, or if you have a spouse who won't get involved, or you just say to yourself, I can't afford that. I know this is gonna sound crazy, but let's reverse engineer your, your understanding of the human mind. How do we put this into? How do we put this into a little tiny box that we can ignore? If we like, you know, I know that's wrong, but don't you think that's what's going to happen? In some cases, and we don't ever give people not you and me, but But in general, we give people great advice in the world, but it's not always followable for everybody, like how do we make it followable? For the people who don't have the time or the inclination? Who might be listening and saying, This isn't because I need to go to therapy. It's because my husband's a jerk. Like, like, you know, when you're thinking that way, like, Is there a Wait, wait, is this the wrong phase? It's like asking how to do drugs safely, although I've done an episode on that. So I guess maybe that is my question. Do you have anything? Like, are you just gonna, you can just say pass, but do you have thoughts on that?

Yeah, no, I think I mean, I appreciate that question. Because in reality, yes, it does take time, it does take money. It does take if you're going to therapy, and you have multiple children, you have to get there's so many you don't have to get a babysitter. There's so many things to in order to do that and prioritize your relationship and in real life that sometimes is feels impossible. And so I understand that and I get it. So if we were to say, okay, that's not a reality for, you know, this family, then I would then say okay, what's the set? What's the next best thing that we can do, I would say a couple things. I think, if one person is managing, quote better or has a better understanding of how to manage the child's diabetes, then there needs to be maybe a good agreement, you know, within your household of Okay, this person is going to manage the day to day. But at the same time, the other partner has to come to at least a basic knowledge level. And maybe that means going and listening to your pro tip series or having, you know, like, a day in a life of being the kid, the primary caregiver, to understand not only the time and energy it takes to be, you know, watching the CGM all night long and not sleeping, and dealing with the lows and the highs. Knowing that an X like a soccer practice is going to affect your child's blood sugar may be different than the soccer game, like all these small things that you get to pick up on if you are the primary caregiver. And so

if I don't want to cut you off, but the pressure yes plays such a big point like the like when you're in charge of keeping someone healthy. There is a there's a low degree of pressure that doesn't go away. If you don't know what you're doing. Like if you understand it, then the pressure comes and goes situationally, but when you don't understand that it feels constantly 24 seven, like you're killing somebody. And yeah, that's not obvious to the other person who's not involved in the management. I mean, I have to say, for me, that's been the biggest leap is to get across to like when you do such a good job, but that came out wrong, but I do a really good job taking care of art and sculpture, so much so that she probably doesn't, and hopefully never will feel the full possibility of impact from diabetes. And because of that her perspective is different. My wife's perspective is different if they lived in a house where her blood sugar's were ping ponging all over the place for the last 12 years, then they'd see it differently, too. But it I maybe it's possible, I make it look easy sometimes. But it doesn't make it less impactful on me. And then you can't get that I don't want to call it respect. But you can't get that understanding from onlookers. I don't know if all that

yes, yes. So you because you're doing it. So well. And and I hear your concern, saying that like you are you're doing a great job, right? And so then you don't nobody else is experiencing the side effects or the consequences of of the, you know, the roller coasters, etc. And so then people might think, or your wife might suspect, oh, it's not that hard, right. But in reality, we know that the primary caregiver experiences burnout, for sure. All of the things that we've talked about in the other episodes of distress, the burnout, the resentment of I am working hard to keep our child alive, and my partner doesn't understand how hard it is. And then that leads to resentment 100% of the time. So while it might not work in a lot of families to have this, like, equitable, an equal amount of time in terms of CO managing, there does need to be some level of understanding, which will lead to the respect and the gratitude of what it takes to do what you're doing,

and the knowledge to know when not to get on what's happening. Like, I don't really know a better way to say that, like, you know what I mean, like, if I'm in charge of the checkbook, Erica and you have nothing to do with it. You don't look over my shoulder every once in a while and go, what are you doing here is like, Look, if you want to be involved in the checkbook, be involved in the checkbook. But, you know, we've been a lot, you know, we've been together a long time here, everything's fine. All the bills are paid God little savings going. I'm doing a good job. Like it's, it's, it would be like if I showed up at your office, and stood in the corner, and 15 minutes into a session said, Hey, Eric, are you sure that's the question you want to ask here? Like, you'd be like, Who are you in this situation? You don't know what's happening. It's, it's can be very difficult not to respond. Like you've been attacked, even if maybe that person wasn't attacking you. Maybe they were just like, interested or thought they had a good idea to add or something like that. But I mean, maybe it's just maybe I'm just letting too much of myself out here. But, but but you know what I mean, you can feel really, like somebody's coming after you in that situation.

Right? And so then I would say, okay, going back to Okay, how are you communicating as a couple? What are the what are you leading with? What is your tone? How are the questions being asked? Is that why did you Why did you Bolus this amount for that food in that kind of tone? Or is it Gosh, I'm really curious. So I know for next time, can you help me understand why you gave this amount for that food?

Those those little sentences are so incredibly important in personal communication, especially amongst people who've been around each other for a long time. And because you just get the feeling like the other person knows what I mean, but they don't, it doesn't matter how long you've been together, it's a very nice way to start a conversation by saying, Hey, I was wondering if you could explain to me what just happened here, because I don't understand it. And I would like to, like you have to put yourself in a slightly, I don't know it, like, professionally speaking, if it's a dominant, and sub and sub position, but you have to be kind of in the sub position for a second, like I find, listen, I'm pretty good at talking to people. And I think that one of the ways you talk to people well is by making them feel comfortable, and letting them feel like they can get their thoughts out. And when you come at somebody, and you're very demanding, that does not ever happen that way. And so I think, even when you've known somebody for a very long time, those words that might feel like the polite words you say, for the guy at the gas station really should be used between people who know each other as well.

Yes, yes, I think tone has everything to do with, you know, how we receive, deliver and receive messages. Obviously, body language, and words are important too. But tone is extremely important. And so an understanding that if the, if you're the non primary caregiver, there needs to be that level of understanding that my my partner is exhausted, because they probably aren't sleeping well at all. And they are constantly under this level of stress of what you know, trying to keep your child alive. But you aren't going to get that or you won't be able to come from that position of empathy, unless you have this basic level of knowledge and understanding. And so I think going back to that point of how can you integrate your partner into the CO management, or at least common understanding of what it means to manage the diabetes. And I think, you know, some some families that I've worked with, they will like, if one caregiver is away for the weekend, then the other person is forced to learn, right? And trial by fire, maybe the other caregivers helping via text and call, Okay, I see the arrow going this way, let's do this. But slowly allowing, you know, the other caregiver to experience what it's like, and maybe maybe the other caregiver is still the primary one, but to allow for these opportunities for both the primary caregiver to get sort of a break, and the other caregiver to experience Wow, that was really challenging to build in that empathy and understanding. The the other point around that the Yeah, so the tone, to build empathy, and understanding. I'll pause there.

No, I this is, you know, because we talked before we started recording, but this is about to happen to me, like I'm gonna have my wife managed remotely for six days or so while I'm gone somewhere. And I'm reminding myself as much as I'm reminding other people, but I wonder too, like, is it folly to like to say to the person who's in that situation? Now, here's another job for you explain that to your spouse, how for them how they need to, you know, be that to make this successful? Like, maybe you should just force them to listen to this and be like, Listen, just listen to that. That's what I mean to say to you, but I don't have time. Maybe like I, because when do you run out of time, like because this isn't your only thing. Like it's funny what we just explained, as a person who was a stay at home dad for 20 years, you take out the word diabetes and put into housework. And we just had the same exact conversation, honestly, like I did things around the house that people didn't appreciate, and everyone who does the dishes, or the laundry or, you know, sweeps under the bed. You know, they understand that, you know, when when your spouse isn't sneezing at night, because there's not a big dust bunny under the bed. Nobody stops to thank you for that. They don't even know what happened. It's just it's the idea of, of stopping yourself from taking people for granted, I guess, right?

Yes. And, and I think it goes back to get the time and the energy of you know, oftentimes caregivers will tell me like, well, it's just easier for me to do it. So I'm just gonna keep doing it. But we know that that's you can't do that forever. We also know that diabetes is going to go away. And so you're going to continue to come, you know, experienced that pattern of resentment and burnout if they're if you aren't getting any kind of support or understanding or gratitude for what you are doing. And so I mean, if you're if your partner was open to either listening to the episodes that, you know, the pro tips or the basic diabetes understanding, I know for a lot of families upon diagnosis, because when other the other caregiver either has to work or take care of the other kids. So from the get go, it is often one caregiver and the child in the hospital, and learning what it means, you know, going through all of the seminars and classes and education. And so even from, you know, day one, the one caregiver is going to know and understand more than the other because of just of circumstances and not because they're trying to be cruel. Yeah. And so, but then the then the patterns, you know, continue. So I think it's never too late to ask your your partner to say, Gosh, I'm, we're experiencing this, this cycle of, you know, you either you either criticize the way I'm doing it, but you don't really understand how to do it, or I'm feeling resentful, because you don't know how or I'm so exhausted and stressed out that I have no time to connect with my caregiver, because I just need to sleep when I can to say all those things out loud when you're not in the midst of an argument, and then ask for like, Okay, how can we not necessarily fix this, but address this, and maybe it is having some understanding, maybe it is allowing the other caregiver to experience, you know, taking the kids to the park, or the you know, with your child to diabetes to the park, having these small moments of like, wow, that was really scary. When I noticed my child was going below and I didn't have anything to, to bring it up, bring that, you know, we'd have any snacks. So all these things, allowing the caring other caregiver to experience to hopefully build in that empathy, which is what we think what you really want is like empathy, and understanding and gratitude as the primary caregiver from from experience,

may I lay down just a little layer of blue collar advice here. And I know this is not going to be politically correct. But if you can't get all that done, coming as a straight guy, from my opinion, if you just said something like if you understood extended Bolus is better, I'd have more energy for sex, that probably moves most guys in the direction you want to go.

That's, that's,

that's what I do. Bottom line, bottom line, yeah, you make me a girl. That's how I attack this. I'm like, Listen, you don't what you don't understand is, and then I say, whatever, you know, floats the person's boat. On the other side. I say there'd be more of that. If there was more of this from you. I think that's good. I think that puts most guys right back in line, to be perfectly honest. And by the way, men who aren't the best advice of this whole episode? Yeah. And men who are swayed by that argument, I don't understand you at all. What do you think of that? I once drove to Delaware to have sex, you understand? I didn't live in Delaware. I was like, wait, what's gonna happen? If I come there? Oh,

I'm on my way.

We just get in the car, take a shower. Here I go, I'll be there in four. Yeah, you got to understand how to move the chess pieces around. But it is such a huge problem. like not to make light of it. But I do want to take I do want to like walk across the courtroom and take the other side for a second. If you're the person who doesn't get it. I always want to say that, you know, because I see people online are always like, my spouse doesn't understand that. And they always add, they always act like they're, it's on purpose. They don't get involved on purpose. But I wonder how many times those people aren't scared out of their minds, or like afraid to do the wrong thing? You know what I mean? I'm also there are a lot of people who are afraid to act until they're sure. And I know that seems like the same idea. But it's not like there are some people who can't make an action until they have all the answers before they go. And now you're making this a health issue around a child, probably I'm guessing a child that this person loves a lot. And they're probably like, I don't know what to do. I mean, you're keeping her alive, I'll let me stay out of it. And then, and then the human part gets involved where you do realize this is easier not to be involved in this. And that's where it starts to go wrong, when you willfully stay out of it is different than when you stay out of it because you're afraid. There's a difference there, I

think. Yes. I appreciate that perspective, because I think maybe what could be helpful in that if that is the case, to sit down with your partner and say, can you help me understand why? Like, maybe you've gotten into these patterns and roles, right? But you're realizing it's not sustainable. And to say like have your partner or give your partner an opportunity to just They all have those things to say, Gosh, and I see they're scared, because I don't know how. And I'm fearful of making a mistake. And you are much better at it than I would ever be. And I don't, I don't want to try. I don't want to mess it up. And I think that would be helpful to for your, for the primary caregiver to to hear that and maybe have some empathy to have like, okay, maybe I've just done it all. And it's easier for me to do it. But you know, I'm experiencing all these side effects. But my my partner may want to may want to try, but there's fear or there's Yeah, it didn't know. And then that fear has led to Well, I just, I don't I don't want to do it. Well, now what about any any? Yeah, go ahead. And

what about in a more? What's the word? What about when your partner is actually a bad actor? There's a question here, I'm not gonna attach the person's name to it. But it says, What if the other parent pretends that you don't exist will not help you or give advice without making you feel like a horrible parent that is killing their child, I guess what I'd like to know is how to get this person to help me with how they manage our son, which he seems the when he has so much resentment for me that he can't get over it or put it aside. So this sounds like a scenario where one person wants to help, does not have the tools they need. And then the other person is just is just crushing them every time they come at them. You don't know what you're doing, you're gonna kill them. Like that kind of thing. And I have to tell you, this message is not gender the way you would expect it today. So So what if you've got a bad actor in the situation? Like, what's the I mean, that's a bigger difference, like, how do you fix it? And I guess, when do you say, the rest of my relationship? I'm happy with this part. I'm not happy with I guess not even just around diabetes, like At what point you just, what's what what I want to say like, what do you When do you just accept people's flocks? So there's two questions.

Yeah. And, and this question, yeah, and I understand that. So the one one parent has the understanding of how to do it. And the other parent wants to know how, but when the when this parent tries, the other, the primary caregiver, kind of shames and ridicules and B raids his other parent in terms of like, you're not, you're doing a terrible job, you're going to kill our child,

is it a power? Is that a power move?

It feels, I mean, from this particular question, it feels like there might be some other issues going on. In in the marriage, I'm not I can, I don't know, this scenario, I don't know this person. But it feels like if there's so much power, and there's shame, and there's. And there's obviously there's resentment here, because the one parent knows how to do it well, and is angry, it feels like there's a lot of anger to underneath this of, you don't know how to do it. And if whenever you try, you mess it up. And so it feels like there's either some, you know, on, on either felt or expressed anger or sadness, even around, not to make it all about the sadness, but it feels like there's some other underlying emotions underneath this. And I think if this happens, and I've written, I do read a lot on you know, on the, the Facebook group that these, these kinds of things happen. And if it's to the point where it's so contentious all the time of whenever one parent wants to try to help, I would highly, highly encourage, you know, marital or relational therapy, because I feel like it might be difficult to get to this to the issue of the diabetes unless there's some rebuilt like there's, there's obviously a violation of either trust or love or connection. It feels

like the one person is almost gleeful that there's something to to come at the other person with, like, oh, now I've a really good reason to call them names and tell them their bad stuff. There's, I mean, do you get that vibe from that a little bit like, Oh, just it's an opportunity. Like, I'm a bad person, I'm doing bad things to my spouse. And this is a great opportunity for me to do that. Like I don't know why someone would want to do that. But if you wanted to, honestly, your don't know how to handle our kids diabetes is a great way to make somebody feel terrible. Yeah, yes. Usually, I think the way I think of them, huh? I don't think you think about people the way I do.

Well, I like to give people the benefit of the doubt. And usually when we're lashing out, and we are shaming another person, because they aren't doing it the way we think we should do things, then I feel like there's some other some something else is underneath that

Healthy People don't do that to each other. What's that? How a mentally healthy people don't do that to each other? Is that right? Or no,

I would say maybe people who are necessarily struggling with this, when you are communicating in this, in our you know, with with type one, your one person is going to be fatigued, and unstressed. And so it's hard to operate and communicate and be mindful of your tone and all that. So I think acknowledging that, but not excusing certain behaviors, I think when you are at this kind of crisis moment of we cannot connect on how to manage our child's type one, to have to sit down and try to find moments when you aren't actually heated, to be able to share your experience of how you're how you're trying to manage the type one, when you're not trying to manage the type one, if that makes sense.

Yeah, you know, when I see that become problematic. So first of all, I'm gonna flip flop here for a second. I, I say all the time that you can't let yourself get exhausted because you do not notice it happen. And the detriments from being exhausted, are many they're varied. They go through your life, and you do not know you're doing it. Sometimes you are genuinely lashing out at people and not even aware that you're doing it. But I've always been, that's the thought I've always had in the back of my head too. Like, this isn't a conversation for now, then the problem becomes, when does that conversation? Yeah, and you know, like, and you think, oh, at the end of the day, you mean, at the end of the day, Erica, when you get in bed, and we're both reminded we're not gonna have sex with each other, because we're so pissed, because that's not a fun time to talk. And then you sit there quietly, and you're like, I'm gonna bring it up, this is a good time. And then you hear the CGM or something like that. And I get I get just finding. This isn't just around this idea. But time out time, like pause time is super important. And incredibly difficult to create.

I think yes. Yeah. So, so challenging. But you, I feel like you, if you want to make changes and how you communicate and relate with your partner, then you have to make certain sacrifices and prioritize. So maybe it's okay, we're not going to carve out an hour, we're going to carve out 10 minutes, and we're gonna agree to the date and time. And then you're both prepared. And whether maybe you put your whatever you need to do to prioritize that 10 minutes or 20 minutes. And follow through on that. Because then, if you aren't making these priorities, these times are these moments to connect about the issues that are going to continue. Yeah, then the issues are going to continue. See, I think that you both need to be on the same page. Yeah, I

think that's the most important thing that's been said so far, is that that you're not going to get to any of this inside of another situation. And you really are going to, like, you know how they say, you know, what do they say save the first 10% of your income bank before you pay your bills, pay yourself before you pay your bills? I think there there's something to that, like, you know, you can look at each other and go look, we're obviously arguing a lot, things aren't going well. You're yelling at me, I'm yelling at you. Maybe you're not yelling, maybe like, Look, I'm mad at you, I don't even tell you. But we we're not going to be able to do that. Now. We literally need to put on the calendar. A space and time. This is when we do it. And we sit down and just agree that you can't let anger into this moment. You can't bring your grudges in here. I'm gonna say how I feel you say how you feel. And the goal has to be for us to find middle ground. And and not to pile one issue on top. And I would think one issue at a time. Like don't go in with a list. You don't I mean? Am I wrong? Like there's times when I say things and I'm like, at some point she's gonna tell me I'm an idiot. Is this the moment?

No, I think yes. Don't go into a list and stay in the emotion as best you can around what you're experiencing if I mean if you were trying to work on connection, because if you don't feel connected, it's hard to problem solve. And so, you know, I feel I feel exhausted, I feel resentful, or I feel like I doing it all by myself. And then the other person is like, Well, I I don't know how or I feel fearful or I feel like you never get them to give me a chance. If you feel like you can't get through those types of conversations, then that would be another indicator of like, maybe We need to go back to and not unlike not in cats, you know, therapy, but maybe it's like two or three, check in sessions with a being someone

moderated conversations, right?

moderating helps you communicate and helps you rephrase certain things, being mindful of your tone your butt, all those things. So I think just understanding when I'm when I'm suggesting marital therapy, it's not necessarily, you know, go and do try and fix all the things, it's just maybe going back to some a couple sessions of basic communication to help rebuild that connection and kind of rebuild that trust. Yeah, we don't you guys are in it together. Yeah.

Not everybody needs to be torn down to the bad thing that happened to him when they were six and a half to get to it. Right, right. We're not, you don't need everybody to go to see doctor, it doesn't have to be Freudian psychology, I guess psychiatry is saying, right, right. Go to therapy and, and have somebody there who hears who can hear in your sentence that you're about to stirrups and stop you go, right. Yes,

the objective objective listener who can help guide the conversation. And, and I think that could be really beneficial. But going back to, you know, your the first point was, you know, well, we just can't we don't do enough time to that, then maybe start smaller, start with the 10 minutes on your calendar. And then and be respectful of the time. So okay, 10 minutes is done, or whatever the time that you've allotted, and then schedule out the next time and knowing that you're not going to fix everything, that first connection, you know, that first calendered conversation,

I ask you a question, that it's a start, that might not feel like it fits here, but in my mind, it does a little bit. Just generally speaking, gender broken out over gender lines? Do we have different expectations? Like, are men's general expectations of a partner different than that of a woman's expectations of a partner? And is that how a person can be doing what they feel is the best they can? And it can somehow ring hollow to the other side? Because it's not what you're not doing the thing that the other person is actually looking for? And there's no way to know that. Because you're doing the thing that if somebody did it for you, you'd be thrilled about that was convoluted, but did you understand what I meant?

Right? Yeah.

But I, I wouldn't, I wouldn't break it down by gender, I would break it down by personality by how you were raised. Maybe you're you're you're making choices and doing things by your own personal experience. And And oftentimes, we either feel like how how you were raised is the right way, or you feel like how you were raised is the wrong way. And you're going to do the opposite, right? But I feel like we often we function out of that. Society, even break it down by gender, but

Well, okay, I was wrong. See, it's good. I this is why I like you, because you call me out. But so but the idea of like, I'm doing the best I can, and oh my god, I wish someone would treat me this way. And then you don't get it back. Like meaning like you're like, oh, it didn't land. You know what I mean? Like the person I was trying to help is just completely left hollow from this. I don't know what to do next. And even it's simple to say like, you can ask that person what they want. But sometimes people don't know what they want. And or sometimes they have trouble telling you what they want. It's theirs. Or should people not be should we all just live isolated, ARCA? Is that what we're learning?

Okay, you

live in our cave, and then just come out for sex day and then go back in the cave again? Is that what this should be?

Oh, my gosh, that would be so sad. No, we are we are we are relational. I think we want to be we want to be acknowledged. And in that we can also acknowledge others, you know, for what, for all that least, that's been seen and done.

You said something at the beginning, that I wanted to kind of just kind of end on here with this conversation if you think we're done. But you talked about like lose the loss of physical intimacy. And is that and is that an easier way to mend fences than talking? Like if you've lost a physical connection can leaping back into that or trying to fix that? Is that easier to fix than talking? I guess is my question.

No,

gosh, I think what depending on the the the couple, one, one party one partner might feel like the reason why there isn't the emotional intimacy because the physical intimacy is lacking, right. And the other partner might feel like Well, I don't want to be physically intimate because I don't feel emotionally connected with you.

Well, that makes sense.

And you could come to a you know This impasse right, because one person's needs aren't being met and the other then that they're not going to give the other person the other needs. So it's going back to understanding what are what are your partner's needs? And off? Maybe it is it can we need to. Some one needs to give a little. Whether the partners like holding out to feel emotionally connected before before they feel comfortable physically, or,

like it didn't need to be I know, because I joke around you probably thought I met like swinging from the chandelier. But could it just be like, holding hands or like touching someone on the shoulder when you walk past them? Or just giving the other person the feeling like you're not avoiding them? Like, you don't mean like, sex, it's got to start somewhere. And because if because the stuff we're talking about, is, is not intuitive for the people for people sometimes. But like, you have to move in the right direction, or you continue to move in the wrong direction. And like me, I just feel like you have to fight upstream sometimes, and maybe just holding someone's hand or sitting next to them while they're watching television or something like that. would go a long way to making another person feel comfortable. I might be wrong. I'm just

No, no, no, you're good. I think starting Yes, starting small and we don't, if you feel like there has been zero physical intimacy, and one partner is feeling like there's no way I'm ever going to ever want to have sex with this person until we get to this spot emotionally. To go back yes to saying maybe my partner's love language is physical touch and intimacy. So how can I help bridge that that might be an easier way, as you said, just start smaller with the small touches gestures. And that might lead to both of you then feeling more open and ready to have some more emotional intimacy, conversations, communication. So I think it just depends on what knowing knowing your own, quote, love language and your partners. And then being willing one, one person often has to take the first step. I'm just

saying those old touches charging those old Tom and Jerry cartoons when they had to get past the Bulldog, they throw steak over the fence. That's all I'm getting out here. And and I listen to the rest of the reality of what you just said, I don't not understand that. I know a person might not want to be intimate with somebody that they don't feel comfortable with. That obviously makes 1,000% sense. But I mean, once you're in it for a while, once you're married for 10 or 15 years, and you see things you're just like, wow, none of this is going the way I want. I mean, are you just what do you just riding it out? Like it just feels like you're just climbing higher and higher on the Titanic try not to get wet. You know, it's gonna happen eventually. So, try something. You know what I mean? I don't know. Yeah, I

should try something being open to give, you know, trying some intervention, trying some gesture, to to make a change. Because as we know, we're gonna, we're not going to change, things aren't going to change

stuffs not just going to magically get better.

And

even that like feeling of like, oh, I'll get mellower. As I get older, it's you'll have too much resentment at that point. And won't matter if you don't have the piss and vinegar to fight anymore. You're still not going to like the person you're looking at. Because you're going to feel like you wasted time or life or I don't know, you got to do something is how I feel about it. Like you have to try something. And, and I do think the idea that someone needs to be the not the bigger person, I believe in the intent of that phrase, but not the words of that phrase, if that makes sense. If someone has to go first, if someone's got to swallow hard and go, Alright, fine. I'll do this. Like, I'll be the one and and do it with a lot of joy not not angry, you think begrudgingly right? You can't be progressing about it. That's all I fixed

that there. But there's hope i think you know, just being being hopeful and holding on that remembering go I think if you're at the place where you feel hopeless to go back to remembering how you first met as often this is like a and I know we're wrapping up here but maybe it's your you don't when you scheduling that time together to not first address the issue at hand but to reflect on how you first met, the feelings doing you you had and the experiences you you created together to go back and remember remind yourself and your partner and and reflect together to maybe go back to the beginning could be a place to start as well to kind of reignite that sense of hope.

How much value is there in being reasonable about who you who you're with to like At what point do you just say, you know, maybe this isn't what I was hoping this person was going to turn into but If I'm being honest, this is who they are, they're being really consistent. Like, at what point? Can I say I love you. I don't like this part about you, but I love you. And I'm gonna stop focusing on the thing I don't like and and see the bigger picture. Like, I don't know if that's wrong or not like I'm genuinely asking like, at what point do you not like, expect somebody to be perfect and say to yourself, there was a time when that, you know, picadillo didn't bother me. And now it's the only thing I can look at.

Mm hmm. And I think yeah, if you were, if you were in that place, and trying to figure out how to come to that place of, of acceptance, embracing who your partner is loving that your partner, then maybe that's the time for you to do some own, like reflection to whether that's, you know, by yourself through journaling, reading books, therapy, to kind of get to that place of can you do that? Do you want to? And can you get to that place of, of acceptance? Yeah,

I want to be clear that I'm just trying to talk through this, like, I genuinely don't think like, if it comes across, like, I think you should, you know, have a have a whiskey and water at the bedside at the, you know, at the table with the newspaper in his pipe, and it's 1950. And when he comes home, you rub his feet, put on his slippers, and then go flop on the bed till he's ready to bang on you. Like, I'm not saying that, like, I really am not trying to put that out there. Okay, like, I seriously don't think that I don't have those thoughts about relationships. I just think that it's, it's hard to see the other person's side. And sometimes it's, it's just, it's, it's difficult to, in this conversation, this kind of conversation where I'm trying to play, I'm trying to argue both sides while you and I are talking, that it I don't want people to think like, oh, he just thinks that women should you know, be barefoot and pregnant? Like, I don't feel that way. And I don't. And I don't think I didn't pick up. Yeah, I'm glad I just now I'm nervous at the end here. Because we're talking about Jesus, there's somebody out there right now is like, I'm not just gonna have sex with him to shut him up. But I'm not saying that.

I genuinely,

I think I mean, I think bottom line is that, you know, marriage or relationships, it takes work, and, and you got to be willing to do the work. And then when you integrate a chronic illness into the equation, it's going to take even more work. And I think, oftentimes, it's hard to it's hard to do the work. It just is

there, there are close to 90,000 scholarly articles that come back if you google divorced and chronic illness or something like that. So this is not a new problem that you're having. I think that's important to know that, that people could feel like oh, my God, this is it. Like I was bad at being a spouse, or I picked the wrong part. If you think that most people aren't going through this, you're out of your minds, like like this. Yeah, this is everybody's life. Nobody, nobody gets away with this. They just find some people are just better at pretending I always say the happier people look more foolish they are. So

probably sometimes, too, but I think it's just it takes Yes. I mean, that's a very true thing of, you know, divorce within, or as a result, or a part of, you know, living with a chronic illness or having a child with chronic illness. And I think just knowing the Yes, that you're not alone, that it's, it is challenging, and it does, it takes it takes work on top of the work that you're doing to to keep your child alive. Yeah,

I have a very pragmatic approach to like happiness. I don't expect to be happy every day. And I even expect that there could be days that turn into weeks where nothing that I would, you know, think of is like really super exciting. And something I'm glad to be doing, you know, might happen, I might get stuck in a work cycle. It's happened to me over the last couple of weeks, like I've had to, I've had to prepare the podcast. Instead of preparing a week of it, I've had to prepare three weeks of it to cover my absence, right. And so I've been working like crazy. So I've been getting up working, going to sleep getting up working, like I've over and over and over again. And if you know, I've heard no lie, I've heard 15 hours of this podcast in the last five days, like editing and doing things and I've said, you know, learn more on the pod.com forward slash juicebox more in the last 48 hours than I've said it in like three weeks. So it's not fun work. But I also think that way about life, like I think if I live I don't know if I figure if I live 80 years and the first 15 kind of don't count cuz I don't really remember, I'm so much so you know, if I've got 60 years in there, and 20 of them are terrific, and 10 of them are pretty good, and five of them are alright, and 10 of them sucked, and five of them were terrible. When I get to the end, that's not bad to me, like, to me, that makes sense that every day is not going to be a carnival. Now, when they start happening, long stretches, obviously, that's a different problem. But I mean, I just don't, I don't have a happiness expectation, I'm happy to be happy. And there are plenty of times that I'm happy. But I'm not sad when I'm not elated. Is that healthy? Or am I fooling myself into accepting too little?

Well, I think what you're saying is, you know, life life is it can be a grind sometimes. And, and accepting that and working towards it, and you're working towards something, and you're doing something that you enjoy, are passionate about, knowing that it life is going to ebb and flow. And so I think that it's having it's a realistic perspective of, there are going to be hard moments, they're going to be moments that feel just kind of ordinary, and they're gonna be moments that are great. And to accept that, you know, those seasons don't last forever. Just like, you know, most emotions don't last forever, they come and go. And I think that being able to kind of live in that. And through that is, is where you're at peace. And it takes it takes work, I'm sure you know, you've worked to get there emotionally,

yeah, things can and we'll get better like judging your whole existence by the bad thing that's happening right now, in my mind is a mistake. I, I love there are people on this planet that I love more than myself. And I've had amazing interactions with them. Sometimes just days, after they've said something to me that I'd think oh, well, I'm never gonna see this person again. Or this person hates my guts, but they're just they could be also going through something and likely are, I just don't, I don't give up. Like, I just think like, this is what it is. And we just make the best of it every day, and some days will be better than others. I just want to give people hope, especially when you find yourself newly diagnosed, or you're in that situation where right now you barely understand what's going on. But your spouse really doesn't understand it. Like it, it's genuinely not gonna stay like this forever. And you might look back on this time and wonder why you were so well not wonder what you were so upset about, you'll know what you were so upset about. But you'll be you'll, you'll think, Wow, I can't believe we got out of that I'd never expected to leave that moment. But you can and

you've likely right. But when you're in it, and you're in that newly diagnosed stage and haze and shock, I mean, it's it's hard to access, or even comprehend that whatever. And that that particular stage. So that's why you need somebody

to tell you challenging, that's why I said it, because you need somebody to tell you, this isn't going to be like this forever. I mean, the way I usually put it is diabetes is hard, it doesn't get easier, you just get way better at it. And that makes it feel easier. And and you You shouldn't make the you shouldn't you shouldn't worry about that distinction. Because you know, you can do hard things and you are going to do hard things and it's going to be around diabetes, if diabetes, you know, I that's going to be the hard thing that you're going to do. And you can like get some help. You can do it. It's and if you don't understand, like you said, you know, earlier Erica, like referenced like listening to some of the protests, but she's not just like butter and my bread. She really thinks that like you just need somebody Yeah, go find something that's valuable. Like to me, if you have a spouse that doesn't understand those defining diabetes episodes are digestible. They're short, and they at least give them context. And then maybe some of the things you say to them, they'll have context for because you might be using words they don't even understand. And they're just nodding along. Try not to look like an idiot, you know, you don't know. Yeah, people are complicated. Disgusting. The whole thing's a mess. Alright. Life is hard. Yeah, there you go. But it's not always hard. And it doesn't have to be this hard. Like sometimes you can you get through it or you make it better yourself. You are really kind of the master of your own domain. You know, you can I think that's a Seinfeld episode, which is about masturbation, which is not what I meant. So let's just keep moving. But you can you can be the master of of your, what am I looking for here? What's the word I want? You to future? You're out your perspective. Yeah, you have anything of all these things. You can change the way you think about stuff. I listen. It's not apples to apples, but I grew up pretty broke. You know, and my life wasn't terrific. And there are a lot of times you had to get up in the morning and just I mean, if you want my secret, which is no secret, I am eternally hopeful. Like you will never meet a person who wakes up, reset more than I do. If something goes wrong today, I will wake up tomorrow with the same enthusiasm I had before that bad thing happened. I don't see another way around it. I don't I, I don't think I could carry all that baggage. You know what I mean? So I just don't i don't walk with the weight of the world on my shoulders. I I don't believe I could do it. So I just I reset my hope I am a very hopeful person. And I wake up every day, expecting things to go well. And if they don't, it's okay. I'll try again tomorrow. That's pretty much it. But yes, it's good to healthy. Thank you. First, let's thank touched by type one, again, you can find them at touched by type one.org. You can also find them on Facebook, and Instagram. They are a wonderful organization. And all they really want is for you to check them out. Take advantage of their programs. I also want to thank Erika, and you can find out more about what she does at Erica foresight.com. That's erikforsyth.com. There's so much music left. I'm having a hard time sitting here quietly. I'd like to take just a moment to thank you all. I know this happens frequently. But it happens frequently because of how great you guys are and how supportive you are. The podcast keeps having months that are better than the previous month. Meaning there are more people downloading and streaming the show this month and last month, more last month in the month before that had record days record weeks. For the past four weeks in a row. The podcast has grown pretty substantially. It's it's astounding actually. The reason I'm telling you is because this is 100% because of you. Absolutely. When you leave a great review, wherever you're listening, rate the show highly tell somebody about it. Tell your doctor about it. Doctors when you tell your patients, it just keeps growing and growing. And the message keeps spreading farther and farther. I am very, very, very, very grateful for how much you all put into the podcast. So thank you very much for your efforts for listening for downloading for streaming however you listen. But mostly for sharing the show. It is a really big deal. I appreciate that you're listening, and I'll be back very soon with another episode.

You are listening to Episode 576 of the Juicebox Podcast I'm very excited to tell you that Erica Forsyth is back. You may remember Erica from Episode 407 479, or 514. She's been here quite a bit talking about the emotional side of type one diabetes. Erica is a marriage and family therapist. She also has type one, and she's been incredible on this show. Today, Erica will help me tackle a number of incredibly difficult questions that were sent in by children. Please remember, while you're listening that nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise, always consult a physician before making any changes to your health care plan, or becoming bold with insulin. If you're a California resident, and you think Erica can help you check her out at Erica forsythe.com. As you may know, I'm on a mission to add as many people to the T one D exchange survey as they possibly can here in November. It's my own little diabetes Awareness month thing I'm doing T one D exchange.org. Forward slash juicebox. US resident who has type one, or is the caregiver of a type one, head over take you less than 10 minutes to fill out the survey. It's amazing, you'll help people you'll have to show. This episode of The Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by trial net, you know trial net, they provide type one diabetes risk screening at no cost to the relatives of people living with type one. I'll tell you all about them a little later in the show, trial net.org. Forward slash juice box. About five months ago, I had what I thought was a good idea. I thought I would do like a defining diabetes series for children based on their questions about diabetes, I thought it was going to be great. So I go on Facebook. And I asked Hey, can you tell me some of the questions that your kids have asked about diabetes. And then what happened next was not what I expected. I am looking at a Facebook thread here that is now 22 weeks old, that has 256 responses in them. One more heartbreaking than the next. And so I didn't know what to do. And I thought I'm gonna do it with Erica. And so I don't know what this is supposed to be. I'm just gonna jump right into it. Okay, and I'm gonna get your top line responses. And I think the conversation will find its way that's my okay. So good. Yes. So I just threw up there. And I said, Hey, do your children ask diabetes related questions that are difficult to answer. And, you know, like, I just thought it would be like, even put up some examples like, well, I have diabetes, the rest of my life. You know, while I still have diabetes, I'm six like that kind of stuff. These are the things that Arden asked me when she was younger. Right? The very first one out of the box. Somebody says, My child has asked me what happens if my blood sugar goes to zero? Mm hmm. And I'm like, so what? So let's just start there and see how far we can get through this. Okay, how valuable is it for children? And at what age to understand the real consequences of them getting too much insulin? And do you run the risk of scaring them about their insulin too?

I think my first thought is, I wish I knew what age each child when a parent was writing in because I think it's has to be so relevant and appropriate and make it age age appropriate. Right?

for you here. Don't worry.

Okay. Okay. So do you want to tell me do you want me just to guess?

They said, they said the child is six years old. Erica, you're breaking up? You're gone? Actually.

No, I'm here. I'm sure. I didn't press anything.

I know you didn't. The system. It booted you like you had a weak signal or something like that. Okay, so sorry about that. So yeah, six years old. What happens if my sugar goes to zero?

Okay. So I think and keeping it appropriate, and not fair, you know, causing any inappropriate fear, but also you want to create a respect around the insulin. I think if if I were the parent in this, in this response, I would say well, we have all of these precautions and tools to prevent us from going to zero. And that would be the case particularly with you know, the CGM. And I think that the child seems to be so that kind of worst case scenario thinking. So I would just I would start and maybe end there to say we have all these tools to make sure that you don't go to zero. And, and we know what to do when you start to go low when you start to feel, you know, all the symptoms of when you feel low. To prevent that from happening

at a certain age, though, don't people deserve to know, what happens if their blood sugar goes to zero? And what how do you figure that out? It's got to be case by case, right?

Yes, and I don't know. You know, the stats, to be honest around how many people are have hypoglycemic unawareness and end up having seizures end up having to be hospitalized, or even death. And we all know in our community, those are real possibilities. And I would imagine, it's probably a small amount of people who have hypoglycemic and awareness. So I think at some point, I would say, I think maybe maybe closer to 10, when maybe even eight to 10, when children have more understanding of death, they might not understand it completely. But they might start asking questions, if grandparents are dying. I think you can connect it to that developmental understanding of that things that can happen. But that, but not to link it to a to their personal fear that because I think you could you could create a real fear of going low. Yeah. And we want to try and avoid that. Right, right.

Oh, also, I would say that you don't want to attach it to their personal success or failure. Like you, you definitely don't want to say to somebody, Hey, listen, here's why you should do a better job because you don't want to die. Like that's, I don't think that's a valuable way to talk to people, generally speaking, correct?

No fear, fear based motivation, particularly with type one does not work. In terms of, you know, even going the opposite way of you don't want to go high of us, you're gonna go blind. And you don't want to go low. Ross, you're gonna die. I think they know those. Those are, number one, really, it's really rare. And number two, that doesn't, that isn't going to lead to, you know, solid management, blood sugar control, right?

Yeah. People don't don't generally do their best thinking when they're in fight or flight mode, correct? Yeah. So here's another one ready? My children who don't have diabetes, always ask me if they're going to get done. Hmm.

Yes. And I can even share from growing up. I was I was diagnosed first at age 12. Two years, and in between that time, I have a younger brother. And he was approximately four years younger. And I know he was concerned. Two years later, when he was 10, he was diagnosed with type one. And so then, my parents had my sister do the trial net at the time, I think it was still called trial net. This was many years ago, 30 plus years ago. And she did not have any of the antibodies. But I know that that was a certain, you know, it is a very real fear for siblings who do not have type one, particularly when they see how it can change your life at particularly in the beginning of diagnosis. And so the what was the specific question, what do I tell my children?

Well, let's just I mean, you don't have to tell her what to tell them. What would you do? Because I'll tell you right now that my answered that question when it was asked of me with I hope not, but they're statistically you have a elevated chance because Arden has diabetes, but I hope it doesn't happen to you. And then I took my son to trial on that.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I mean, I think we we can't make any guarantees to our children, right, that they're never going to catch a cold or they're never going to break an arm. So I think when you know, am I is this something bad gonna happen to me in life in general? I think we want to tell our children well, we hope not, but we're gonna do our best to you know, let you live a life of freedom and enjoyment and play in soccer and sports but we're and we hope that you don't have to break an arm. I'm kind of globalizing this response. Yeah. But if something does happen, then you know, we're going to be here to support you and we're going to get through it as a family. It's how I would respond.

It's 99%. The same vibe is what do I What happens if my blood sugar gets zero? What happens is we're gonna try really hard for that not to happen if it tries to happen. We're gonna do our best to fix it with everything we know. And here are some of the things we know.

And yeah, I think it's you know, this the children They're asking questions because they're scared. And I think as parents, we want to reinforce that, you know, that things do happen. We can't protect them from everything. But if something does bad happen, or something that we're not planning for that we are going to do our best to support you as our child to get through it, and we're gonna get through it together.

Okay, ready? Yes. Eight years old. When will my pancreas work again?

Ah. Yes, I often still ask that question.

Still wondering that myself? What is happening? Oh, I apologize. Hold on one second.

Yes, yeah.

Hey, it's a little early for the ad. But it's a natural break in the conversation, and then everything will just flow after this. So I'm putting it here. I'm here to tell you about trial net trial. That, of course, is a type one diabetes risk screening organization that offers that screening to you at no cost. This is for people who are relatives of someone with type one who's eligible, you qualify for free risk screening, if you are between the ages of two and a half, and 45. And have a parent, brother, sister or child with type one diabetes, you also qualify if you're between the ages of two and a half and 20. If you have an aunt, uncle, cousin, grandparent, niece, nephew, half brother, half sister, who has type one. last way you can qualify. If you have tested positive for auto antibodies, outside of trial net, like through another service. Don't forget this is free to you. All you have to do to sign up is go to trial net.org forward slash juicebox. answer a few quick questions to see if you're eligible. And then you join 1000s of type one families who are on the pathway to prevention. Here's how you get screened with an in home test kit with a lab test kit, where by going to a trial that location, alright, so you can either do it at home, they'll send it to you, you do it with a finger stick, and you send it back with FedEx, like they come to your house just pick it up. Or you go to a lab like quest where LabCorp where they'll do the blood stuff in the sending. Last way, you can ask if there's a trial net location near you, where you would go to get the blood draw done, then your results right this is what you want to know about. Your results will be received in four to six weeks. If your results show that you are in the early stages of type one. Trial net we'll schedule a follow up visit to see if you are eligible for prevention study. Here's a couple of reasons why you may want to know if you have the auto antibodies. Type one family members are at a 15 times greater risk to develop T one D than the general population. Type one screening will detect if you are in the early stages of type one. And if you are identified as at risk trial net is here to help you. They have prevention trials. If your screening results show that you are in the early stages of type one, you may be eligible to join a prevention study testing ways to slow or stop the disease progression. They also offer ongoing monitoring by top type one researchers in the world. And if you do develop type one being monitored in a clinical research study like trial net decreases your chances of DKA from 30% down to three. And you know what else? It helps the greater good a future without type one diabetes starts with you. Research can advance with participants. Research can only advance with participants. The more participants who are involved in clinical research, the faster we'll find answers, so you're in a unique position to identify treatments that will slow or stop type one from happening. In the last 20 years trial net has been the leading network and type one diabetes prevention research. In addition to being able to accurately predict who is going to develop type one trial, it has now found a way to delay it by leading it to plus a mob prevention trial to please the mob is the first drug to delay type one for a meeting of two years. This is an incredible advancement that gets us one step closer to our ultimate goal. Trial net.org forward slash juicebox when they ask how you heard about them, tell them to Juicebox Podcast, but you have to complete the process for it to account for me. So don't just order the kid at home and sit on it. You have to do the work and send it in Okay, so I'll start over again because we got interrupted I apologize. A young child when will my pancreas work again?

Yes, so that is a tough one. I think it is. You know when I was diagnosed there was still a lot have tacos, let's Brina work, we're fighting for a cure, we're walking for a cure. And I think those are all lovely things, I think it's also really helpful to not plant those seeds of not necessarily false hope. But I think you want to be realistic. And so what I was what I was told, and when I talked to, you know, younger children in my office about, you know, was Will this ever will ever get over this? Will I ever get better? I'm just, you know, in terms of like, the sick narrative, right? And I think to do you have to be honest, reticulating, eight, you know, I think the child can, can understand that, you know, the pinkness might not work will probably probably not work the way it used to. Without help. Now, I think there, obviously, there's a lot of hope for the future about all the various ways that maybe they transplant aside, I don't think that's like a really realistic thing to go into with children. That has a, you know, enough complications of its own, but I would, I would say, you know, I don't want it probably won't work the way it used to. And we have all these other ways to to help it to help your body function, even though it's not going to work the way it used to. But I think in that allowing space for all of the other emotions of you know, that tease the child's trying to find some hope in the diagnosis. Like, what are things ever going to change? And so allowing space for the anger and the sadness around? It's a loss? I know, we've talked a lot about that already. But I think allowing for instead of quickly going to well, but it's going to be okay, because we have our pomp or CGM are we have, you know, there are all these other cool possibilities out there that might happen in the future.

Let them write, let them have their feelings experienced their complete feelings about it. Yeah, I listen, the way I talk about out loud is I hope for a cure, and I live like there isn't going to be one. Yes, yeah, I've

heard you say I like that. Yeah,

I just think that that's, that just seems reasonable to me. I also, you know, to get a little more thoughtful about it, we haven't exactly cured a whole bunch of things in the course of human history. So, you know, there's a lot of things that need to be cured is, and I think it and I not just think, but I've seen the idea of there's going to be a cure stop people from taking good care of themselves in the moment thinking, Oh, this won't matter, because in a few years, this won't exist anyway. Mm hmm. And use that as a crutch to not take care of themselves, which.

Yes, yes, absolutely. No, I love that phrase of Yeah, I mean, I think it's okay to hope. But to be realistic with that hope. Yeah. And live like there isn't going to be one.

Okay. Oh, here's one. That's a specific question. But I am going to make it a little more generic. This person just says, Does this mean I can't live in my car now and says that their child had an ambition before they were diagnosed, to live in a car and travel around. But I think what they're asking is, are my dreams not possible now?

Wow. Wow. Right. Yeah. Can I I was hoping to do whatever it is. And now with this diagnosis is that impossible.

You know, the people usually use use the Hey, used to be Oh, you can do everything except be in the military or flight airplane, like a like a passenger. Like it used to be like that thing, of course, until you meet a kid that wants to be an airline pilot. And it's not as comforting. But that idea of like, you can do anything except for these two odd things over here, which you don't want to do anyway. Don't worry about it until we want to be in the military or something like that. So. So what is the real question? The real question is, AI? Are my dreams, not possible? And I would think if you're young enough, the answer might be, I might say, Look, I know right? Now you want to do this thing, but you might learn or grow or think of something different, and you'll be able to do that fine. And if you can't do this thing, I bet you we could find a way for you to do it. Because I don't imagine much you can't do with diabetes, honestly.

Right. Yeah. And I know you think you can be in law enforcement with it.

I've interviewed a police officer. Yeah,

that's what I thought. That's what I thought. Okay. So yeah, in terms of traveling around in a car, or living in a van or traveling around, you know, the US or wherever, I think that's definitely doable. I would probably want to make sure there was a a CGM or something of that nature just for safety. But it feels like I think upon diagnosis, it feels like there's a loss of freedom. And so So whether it's this particular child or any other children, you feel like oh, no, are all my other all my other dreams or all the other things that I feel like I can do freely? Or without planning? Is that is that going to be taken away from me whether it's a certain job or a certain activity or birthday party, you know, all of those things? And it is it is a mental shift. So I would say, you know, yes, I think most dreams most jobs, you know, having children, which I was told would might not happen, you know, 35 years ago that we are we are evolving within obviously, our diabetes treatment, man and management, and that most things are possible. Yeah, it just takes planning. I mean, that's really it just takes more planning.

Yeah. And if you are in one of the things that's blocked, like military, like, there's a question here from somebody that says that their father was a Submariner, and that the kid wanted to do that, and they can't do that now. And so, but I do think that's a valuable, like, you know, I mean, honestly, look, there's a lot of nine year olds that think they want to be something that don't want to be at when they're 18. That's right. So maybe just like, it's maybe you you go hopeful, we'll we can take care of it. And then maybe privately, you hope it, you know, they changed their mind, or you can actually figure out a way to get to it. I'll tell you. That's an overwhelming question here. Here's another overwhelming question in here, some version of why me? Uh huh. Uh huh. So, yes, know what to say about that.

And I, I remember, I think every child for the most part goes through this stage. And even as the parent is, the caregiver might explore that in their own processing. I remember even reading a book. And I think it was right after I was diagnosed, called Why me about a child who was diagnosed, it was a fictional book. And I think, if we were to zoom out, most kids with any kind of sudden change or diagnosis of you know, that shifts their their lifestyle is going to go through that. And I think, you know, we, I spend a lot of time with my children clients processing this, and there's really, you can't rush it. I think it even will come and go throughout maybe your lifetime. Even if you come to a place of acceptance, some, some children are incredible, and say, Well, this is just going to be my thing. And I'm going to make it work. And they can get there very quickly. Some, some children really struggled with the anger, because it's, it's hard. It's hard as a child, you know, to manage this, and even as a grown adult. And so I think, like any kind of grief process, you might come to a place of acceptance, but it it's okay for it to come back. And there isn't we can't we can't answer that question. Right. We can't say, Well, this was, you know, this was your plan for your life. I think that we that's the hard part, right when our children ask us questions that we really can't have clear answers for. And we can say we, you know, we don't know, but we know it feels, I imagine it feels this, this and this, and let's continue to talk about how it feels.

Yeah, yesterday, I was with Arden while she was getting her senior portraits taken by a photographer. And some point, she moved a certain way. And the woman was like, is that in a pod? And Arden goes, Yeah, right. And the lady goes, Oh, my daughter's best friend has diabetes, and she wears an omni pod. And you know, I mean, like, it's no great thing. We were only like one town away from where we live. Like, it's not like I was in Massachusetts, and I grew up in New Jersey, and the woman said the kid's name. And I said, Oh my gosh, I put that kid's first insulin pump on her. Oh my gosh, she goes what so the kids like five, six years younger than my daughter, but had played softball, actually, they listened to this. So this is where they're going to hear this. And I remember them just being if I remember, like, apprehensive about putting on an insulin pump the first time and I was just coming to my house and I'll I'll do it for you. And all these years later, there we were with a woman taking my daughter's picture. And she's like, Oh, my daughter's friends with that girl. So the woman knew about all this and it started a small conversation. And I don't remember the exact question she asked him, but it was about like, is this you know, like, how is it living with diabetes kind of thing? And Arden's because she just says, I'm good with it. It's fine. And she really meant it. She meant and I did think in that moment, I wonder if it'll always be that way or she'll wake up one day when she's 36 and just be like, Oh my god, I still have diabetes. This just still happening. Hmm. But I appreciate your answer. So, okay, you're gonna keep going. We are going to be crying by the time this is over. Just see oh, my gosh. Well, we already covered when will I go? When will it go away? So it's not fair. Why me? How long can I go without insulin? That one is I think right along it's I think that falls right into the what happens if m zero like right figure, it's the same kind of scenario like it's a real health issue it could end with it could end poorly with, you know, decay or death. Right? The answer has to be, you need insulin all the time, you need Basal insulin, and you need to Bolus for your meals. I think it just has to be like, like very cut and dry when you talk about stuff like that.

Yeah, and I think I might be reading in too much to the question, but also kind of like, am I gonna have a break from this? Is there ever going to be a period of time where I can just not take my injections or have my pump on my body? And I think that's the that's the child trying to process like, Is this ever going to end? Yeah. Yeah.

Well, here's the next here's three questions later. If I don't do insulin, will I die? Mm hmm. And I don't know. Like, again, down to age again. Right,

right. Yeah. How did you know how old that child is? Okay, well, I guess it probably doesn't necessarily matter. I could probably answer this, depending on the age bracket is kids

younger, because they had three questions I love. Here we go. The kids said, If I don't do insulin, will I die? Then she said I love my diabetes today, but I didn't love it yesterday. When will my diabetes go away? When I was in your tummy? Mommy, did I have diabetes, too? Oh, so. So she's little.

Yes. She's She's processing what does this mean? And like, also, because you know, a younger child has a hard time but time

Tommy thing got me. God damn it. Yeah, yeah. Go ahead.

Yes, I think processing like the timing of you younger children don't know that yesterday, today, tomorrow, you know, in two hours in two weeks, right? So they're trying to understand the permanency and that's a really hard concept. And like, was I always this way, did they always have it? Ah, it's it is painful. And I think for you, the younger children, I would stay you know, day to day. Not? I would maybe because I don't think they really understand like, well, this, you're going to have this forever. Just say, Well, today, we're gonna we're gonna do our best today and then we're gonna go to bed and then tomorrow, we're gonna do our best again. I think the was does she start off with if I don't have insulin? Will I die? First one? Yeah. Yeah, I would say for the younger children. I would. I don't think you need to go to the death. Like, I think we say well, if you don't have insulin, you I would start in the affirmative. Like you need insulin to feel good. And excuse me and to, to live the life that you want to live and play and have, you know, go to school and have playdates and play on sports or dance. And so you need insulin every day to do all those things.

Is reframing important than because, yes, they're asking the questions sort of in a defeatist way. You need to like flip it around and reframe it so that it's not, so that you hear if I don't do insulin, why die? You don't even address that. You say, Oh, no, let me let me explain to you right now you need insulin to feel good. Insulin keeps you healthy. You know, so you, you accentuate the positives. And don't don't skirt the question, but don't lean into the sadness of it.

Well, or the. I mean, obviously, we all know that that's the reality, right? If we don't type ones don't have insulin, they will die over. You know, I don't know what the actual length of time is. I usually generically say a week to people to try and like when I'm explaining what my type one is to other people.

You're like, if I eat this cookie right now, I'll be dead in seven days.

Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Those questions like, can you eat that? Yeah. So I think for the Yeah, for younger children, I would say probably up to like the eight to 10. I mean, I think as younger children, even the 567 year olds, they will understand death acts outside of their own body, right. They in terms of pets, dying, grandparents dying. I think relating it to their own concept that they will they might ask those questions even when they are exposed to death. Will I die someday? And I think you can say, Well, we, you could also globalize and say we know what we're all gonna die someday. Depending on how your child is, in our experience around death, if there's no experience around death, I would keep it in the affirmative of saying, we need insulin to keep you alive. Or to keep you healthy. We need insulin to keep you happy, and doing things you want to do. I would say later, eight to 10, you could have more kind of realistic conversations around, you do need it to keep you alive.

I listen, I go back all the time to a story that a woman told on here once very quickly, her child with diabetes was younger with eating, they had an older child that didn't have type one, the mom had to leave the house. And the kid, the older kid was put in charge of making sure that the child ate because they had already given them insulin. Mom leaves the kid doesn't want to eat her food, his or her food, excuse me. And then the older kid in a desperate attempt to get them to eat says, you know, if you don't eat that you're going to die. And no one had ever said that to the kid before. Hmm. So the child was just wrecked when the mom got home, like sitting on the floor crying, because no one had ever told them that diabetes could kill them. Yes. So that's how you don't want to find out is my point.

No, that Yeah. Yeah, I think you would you want to have the these types of conversations with your child. So that yeah, they aren't shocked?

Yeah, you're gonna have to take some responsibility to really feel your kid out and make sure you're having these conversations at the right times. Like nobody can tell you what the right exact age is to do something like this. Alright, yeah,

it really depends on your family. The way you talk about things your family's life experience, exposure to death. And your personal, your, your comfort level, I think you need to be I think it as a caregiver, it might be hard to come to terms with that concept, right? That your child might die if you don't, your child could die if you don't do all the things. But I think I think going back to like the stats, I really I don't know, maybe you just got but like how often people die from a low blood sugar. I mean, obviously there's chronic, if you're not in good in you know, and you're not in your in your managing well. Yes, yeah,

I don't know the numbers. But I have to tell you that it's an idea that I lean on pretty heavily for my own daughter, right, which is that a lot of people have diabetes, I don't wake up every day to the news that 20,000 More people have died from local, overnight, we have the best gear we can have. It benefits her health to do things the way we're doing. And I really hate to say this, but if that's how she goes out trying to live well. There are worse ways to die. And so I just think that, um, I think that the answer is we're going to do the best thing for you. We can yes, there's risks and everything. There's risks in this too. Yes, yes. All right. So Erica, the next two questions are both equally horrible in different ways. So here's one for you that asked a lot. And I genuinely don't know how to answer this one. Because I don't have a lot of experience in this space. But why did God give me diabetes? Mm hmm. So if you're a very religious family, you may be living your whole life on the bend of like, hey, what we have that's good in the world comes from Jesus, but we have it's bad in the world comes from Jesus, then all of a sudden, this happens. And you know, Jesus loves me, why am I why I've diabetes?

Mm hmm. Yeah, that's, I hear that question as well. And I think it comes down to yes, your relationship with God. And if you are, if you have a faith and you believe in God, it's it's very natural for a child to then say, Well, if God is in control of everything, why did he let this happen? To me? That's kind of the question I hear, why didn't he protect me from this? And I would explore with the child, you know, what, what is their understanding of how things work in the world. Like, God doesn't plan for people to have car accidents, like bad things happen, that are out of our control. But it doesn't mean that God is not with you, or that God doesn't care or that God doesn't love you. And ultimately, where children will, will land as well. You know, God didn't necessarily give this to me, but he can help me get through this. In terms of if they have a faith or trust in him. Yeah,

right. If you have a religiously faith based life, you don't want to destroy it in one fell swoop by saying, I don't know. I guess he sucks. You're like, right, yeah. You just gotta like you that alright, that makes sense. But

I think I think that that is also you're wrestling with and trying to find a reason and why you were diagnosed, and you're going to be angry at anything and everything initially, right? And so you're there trying to find like, Well, God, I'm angry at God, I'm angry at mom and dad, I'm angry at whatever it is we're trying to place. Find a reason or place blame when some when things just happen that are out of our control,

I find that randomness like comforting like that something bad happened, and it's not for like it just happened, like some people's genes just kept, you know, people like the way I think of it. My daughter has diabetes, because a really long time ago, two people met each other had babies, and along the course of that happening over and over again, lead to this auto immune issue. And that's why she has it, it almost feels like it's nobody's fault. And right. Yeah, and that's, like comforting to me. I guess my brain just works backwards.

No, I think that's helpful rationale as well, you know, that? I mean, it obviously isn't anybody's fault. It's our how our genes have, as you said, mutated, right?

It's horrible. To look at your wife and think, had I just picked the other girl This might not, you know, you know, or she would have just said no to me, then, you know, this wouldn't happen, but then the kids wouldn't exist. And I'm not willing to give them up for that. So right. You have to be okay with this. Right? You know,

yes. All right.

Here's a little twist. I'm going to tell you what the kids said. But then I'm going to ask you a question for parents. Okay. Three years old, had had diabetes for about a half a year falling asleep on night says, Mom, can you take my diabetes away? Because I don't want it anymore? Can you take it away? In the morning, and he wanted to wake up and not be diabetic? She said, oddly enough, at the time, they didn't talk about this stuff, because they thought the kid didn't have the capacity to even talk through it. But obviously was having these thoughts. So my question around this one is, what should she feel after that happens? Like, like, and I'm going to just give you another one. Like I was putting art into bed one night, a long time ago. And we were just testing her blood sugar before she went to bed. And she just very, like matter of factly says, Hey, what, how am I going to do this when I'm in college? And she was like, I don't know, seven or eight. And I said to her? Well, I'm figuring things out right now so that I can teach them to you, and then you're gonna know what to do. And you'll just be able to do them. And I said, and if you have trouble, you could call me. And I could help you because I really understand it. And I'm sure you'll make friends who will help you. And I did all that. But that's not even the story. The story is that I barely got out of a room and closed the door before I cried a lot very early. So what do we do for the people who are being asked these questions?

Oh, well, I know. Yes. My heart goes out to parents who are I mean, it's it is incredible that the child asked this, I know, many caregivers have shared this, you know, wish to me. I know my parents shared this to me, like, oh, we would do anything to take it to height have this instead of you. Yeah. And you know, as parents, you know, you want to protect your children as much as you can. And the fact that this three year old is verbalizing, like when I will just go away, can you take this away? That's really, really painful. I think. So as you asked, How should she feel in the morning, meaning the child or

the parents? I mean, the parent, like, what would it mean, you can say whatever you're gonna say, that's gonna be valuable for the kid and their progress. But when you get out of the room, you realize I can't take this away. That's all this kid wants. And now I'm a failure. Yeah, no,

I think you go, you go out and have a good cry. And you because I think you're there's a good there's probably that's going to trigger some grief around the permanency and around hearing actually, that your child doesn't want this, right. Doesn't want to live with this. And I think so understanding that's going to obviously, it's causing grief, it's causing sadness, and that we are you are out of control. We can't take it away from your child. And so the next morning, I would if, I mean, it depends on how the child would wake up, but I would have a conversation with my three year old and just thanking thanking them for sharing that and saying any, you know, encouraging that those continued conversations around, you know, wishing it were gone, knowing that we can't take it away, but I think affirming her ability to express that is where I would lean into as a parent. And I think it's okay to be sad, sad with your child.

Well, my take away from what you just said is that it's going to take a long time for this to be okay. and that it's a continuing conversation, you don't want to just shut it down or think you're going to fix it with one statement today. And I think that's hard for people to hear. But if you have diabetes in your life, it could take years and decades for this all to, to flatten out and feel like it's normal. And it doesn't mean that it's not worth doing. I just think it's a very long process like life, it's a very long, you know, when they be people say, like, Oh, you're married, like, if you got to work at it every day. You don't work at it every day with the idea of like, well, once we've done it for 20 years, we won't have to work out. It doesn't go that way. So this is part of your life now. And, and having conversations about it, and these conversations are going to morph, they're going to change, the questions are going to change, and you have to keep having the conversations where it'll get bottled up somewhere and cause a problem. So

yes, yeah, I think just Yeah, accept accepting the fact that once your child or you as a caregiver has accepted, it doesn't mean that it's all going to be you know, rainbows and flowers for the rest of your life. Like it's okay to go back to the frustration and sadness.

So here's the thing that parents do a lot that I think they think is kind and it might be and I just want to understand, but it comes up a lot in this thread. Because then their children ask why they say it when parents say, I wish this was me and not you. Mm hmm. Is that something you want to put on a kid? Like, is that kind or is it scary?

Yeah, I think those are the parents thing. I wish this was me and not you. I wish I could take this away from you. I wish I had it. And as I yeah, I remember distinctly my father saying that multiple times when I was newly diagnosed. And I think that's their, their, their processing their grief, and sadness, and not being able to control you know, a protect, quote, unquote, protect their child from hard things. I also feel like, is that a second? Is that a hard thing for a child to hear? Is it scary?

Yeah. Should you keep that to yourself first, does it help them to hear it because at a certain age, I've I've said to Arden, not that but I've said something to her about? Like, I know, this is hard, and she'll be like, No, you don't? And I'm like, Oh, she's right. I don't really know. So you know, like, Is that the same kind of vibe? Like, I wish I could take it away? But that's nice, but you can't so why are you saying it to me? Like I don't know if that as you get older if that can be a concern?

Right, I think, sorry. I don't know. But this making that noise. Sorry. Turn that off. Yeah, I think what the Oh, my goodness, what is that? I don't know.

Hilarious. You're like, don't worry. I've got this. I'll shut it right.

Let me see. It might be okay. All right. Well, hopefully it doesn't happen again. Apologies. Okay. So I would say. So the parent, what the parent is trying to express is there is their sense of loss, right in their sadness. So is it helpful? I don't know. I mean, I don't remember feeling. Just personally, I don't remember feeling angry when he would say that. I think now, if you're to kind of pull out and zoom out a little bit more again, to in general, is that helpful? That yeah, the parent can't take it away. But what they're really trying to say as I'm so sorry that this is happening to

you. I would do anything for you. If I could. Yes. Yeah. I know. I know. Listen, I don't think I'm not making a judgement about it. I don't have a feeling about it one way or the other. I'm just it makes me wonder. Because a lot of people say it. Do. Yeah. So I think

I know this is hard. I think you're trying that, you know, you're trying to validate and empathize with your child. I think maybe it could be reframed to. I I don't know how hard this is because I don't have it. I'm not I'm not the person living with it. Yeah, but I can imagine it's really hard.

I'll tell you this. I stopped in under, I stopped wondering if I could put myself in my daughter's shoes. When she said to me one day she referring to a severely autistic kid that she know who had a lot of deficits and whose life wasn't easy. She said that she'd rather be him and not her because at least he can't die from his thing. Mm hmm. This kid is feeling life on a level that I did not understand. And I am not going to try to put myself in her shoes again in front of her. Because I mean, she was not very old when she said that.

Wow, that is profound. And I'm sure with really hard to hear? Yeah, yeah,

I'll tell you one of the things I'm great at because of diabetes is staring into the eyes of a person I love without crying when all I want to do is cry. So yeah, yeah, super good.

Yes. And I think kind of, you know, that's a really normal process, though, of comparison of like, illness comparison. And gosh, I feel like this would be easier. And that's all you're all. That's all just kind of trying to gamble make sense of it? Like, I wish, it feels like it would be easier with this illness and with the other one. But we know that all of it is hard to do, like you're trying to make sense of it.

Right? Well, there's a lot of sentiment in here about bravery too. And I, I fall very weird on this idea, because I understand the sentiment of my kids are so brave, for the bravest person I know is blah, blah, blah. But I also don't think that I don't think people deal with medical stuff out of bravery, I think they deal with medical stuff out of necessity. You know, like, I mean, I would be happy for you not to think of me as brave if I didn't have to get injections, or you know, or, or have a pump put on me or whatever, you know, excuse me stuff that I don't want or that might hurt for a little while or be I don't know that that's bravery. It's just, it's um, I mean, that's the will the live really is what it is.

Right? Yeah. And I hear this concept a lot. Or, you know, in parents or think or they're trying to affirm their child in taking steps to keep themselves alive. And I think bravery in the concept of living with a with type one could be instances where maybe the child has finally felt comfortable sharing with their peers. And they maybe have been hiding it for months or years. Or maybe bravery is standing up and teaching your class about it. You're, you know, a general information. I don't know, just kind of smaller steps within living with it. I think, yes, I guess you are being brave by choosing to do the things to keep yourself alive. I think I've learned Yes, it's out of necessity to know,

I mean, and I'm not trying to denigrate it, but like, I've heard interviews with people who are like been in natural disasters and like, This guy's a hero, and the guy's like, listen, I was just trying to get out of the building, those people were in front of me, it wasn't happening. So I coordinated and got the hell out of there and got everybody else out to like, I was just trying to stay alive, you know, and it benefited other people. And so I mean, I'm not a hero, like, Do you know what I mean? And I don't know if there's any. Also, is there any psychological reasons why you wouldn't want to set up a seven year old to think that they're, you know, the end all and be all like, I don't know, like, it's just a weird, it's a weird spot to be in because of diabetes? I think, a lot of questions, and I don't know all the answers to them.

Yes, I think there can be brave choices, while living with type one, and brave decisions or brave actions, while doing all the things that you have to do to keep yourself alive, if that makes sense. Yeah, and I think those are fine to affirm. Like, maybe it's the child was scared to go back to dance class, because they didn't want their they didn't want their friends to see their their pump, or their CGM. Or maybe they were afraid to go back to play sports because they didn't want to go low. And I think affirming those decisions, that I think that that is being brave, of doing something that they're scared they were scared to do or fearful or intense and anxiety around because of the type one and they chose to do that. I think it's I would affirm that as being brave to do those things that they were scared I

yeah, I definitely agree. I didn't like I said, I don't want to come off. Like I think that living with diabetes isn't brave. But here's the here's a nice one. It starts off terrible, but then it ends nice and and you don't have to answer it. So take a break, breathe for a second. Okay. When her daughter was first diagnosed at six, she would always ask how long will I have diabetes and when will it go away? But then at nine years old told her mother that it doesn't matter anymore because she still has friends. And I think that maybe is an insight into how kids minds aren't as you know, sometimes they're not as they're not looking for the same things that you're looking for as a resolution maybe? I don't know, I just thought that was very sweet. Like it's

that is you know, and I think yeah, I think it also is very appropriate age appropriate, right? Because it's six they're not understanding the permanency and then at age nine, because and not understanding is this going to take away My friends, it's just going to change my life. And then at nine, they're saying, Oh, well, actually, I can still, I still have friends, I can still go to school, I can still hopefully do the things I want to do after school. And I still have to, I sought to manage, but I still can do the things I want. And I have joy. It's really

Yeah, I didn't see a degradation of the things that they were hoping to have. Now. I mean, there's another kid that said, you know, why does diabetes ruin everything? But I, that also could be? I mean, listen, a big part of why this podcast exists is because I believe that a lot of the psychological, like, lightness that can come is after you really understand how to use the insulin so that you're not constantly chasing things around, and you don't know why things are happening. So maybe that kids stuff is being ruined. Because, you know, they're constantly chasing blood sugars, and they're high and they're low, and they're stopping from doing things. But that's why I think that it's important to understand how to better manage, so you can lessen those moments.

Yes, yes. And yeah, we don't know maybe that. What's what's going around with surrounding with that statement? Is he not feeling good? A lot of the time?

Well, yeah, there's a ton of questions in here about why do I feel angry when I'm higher? Why do I feel anxious when I'm lower? You know, all that stuff? And I mean, listen, we've answered those questions in the podcast a million times, you know, your blood sugar fluctuations. impact your impact your brain. Yeah, absolutely. Everything else. To me, the answer to that question is, I don't know. But I'm gonna go back to Episode 210 of the podcast, listen to the protests and try to figure it out. Like, I mean, honestly, that that's a good answer. Okay, here's one. That's hilarious. Why does the insurance company take like two or three months to get me a pump? Why can't they have more than one person working on the paperwork?

Good question. Yeah.

That we all say yeah.

Oh, my gosh, yes. I don't know. That's, that is sad, though. Is it still does it take that long? I don't, I can't. I don't know. What

this kid doesn't know is that one day, they're gonna have the pure joy of getting on the phone with the faceless person in an insurance company and cursing at them. It is so cathartic, you're gonna love.

Yes, and yeah, we just, they're, they're excited. And they want it. I get it. Yeah, no,

but I just love it. Trust me. You don't know how great it feels to yell at somebody on the phone? Who you don't know and have no relationship to wait till you have. It's a lovely moment. Oh, my God. Have you never said the F word to an insurance company? Erica?

No, I have not actually I find it the quickest way to

get resolution.

Oh my gosh, society's

different. Now people don't accept things as well. But I love cursing at people on the phone. I think it makes things actually, you know, I try very hard not to be in at all confrontational. Like I like things to go smoothly. But when it gets down to it, I think a well placed F bomb gets you somewhere sometimes.

I'm glad that that has worked for you.

Feel better? For a couple? Yeah. All right. Let's finish on a. They're all low notes. So let's just finish off our note. Will someone want to marry me? And can I have a baby?

Oh, oh, I resonate with that one. As a little girl. I definitely asked that. How I'm curious how old is this child? Oh, if you if it's clear or

written, it is not clear. Okay. I can tell you one thing. I've interviewed people, women, specifically, a lot of different age groups that I think wonder this? Yeah. You know, like, is somebody gonna want to take me on as a burden, I think is how it feels. And yes, terrible.

Yes, no, it's a really normal, the both of those are normal questions to have. And as we know, back in the day, I don't know how many years ago but probably even 4050 years it it was very scary to have children with type one. And we know we know now obviously that that you can and it takes work. The but the relationship piece, I think what the child is kind of revealing by that question is do I am i Is there something wrong with me? Is this yeah, as you said it is am I going to be a burden? And I've had children ask this as well. And we talked about you know that there's no no one is perfect going into a relationship or marriage and that when you find the the best fit for you that they will everyone will figure it out together, you know, and we'll work together.

I tell people and I'll tell you I tell my daughter the same thing. Anybody Buddy, who doesn't want to be with you because of diabetes? You don't want to be with first? Yeah, I listen if, Eric if they don't want to, if they don't want to marry you, because you got a ton of college loans that I understand, okay, but but but if if somebody, if it's who it's not, it's not who you are maybe per se but it is something that you that you live with. And so if they're not up for that they're not up for you. And yeah, and I don't think you want to spend a lot of time trying to talk somebody into it to be perfectly honest with you move on. And it's one of the reasons why. Like, I think every question that we've asked here today, I've answered already throughout the podcast, and but I know people can't listen to everything. So I try to have people on all the time who are in great relationships with other people who are supportive of their diabetes. And I do that partially so that you'll get like, wow, he found a woman that loves him, she found a guy like cetera, that these two girls got together, whatever it ends up being, people found each other, and the diabetes wasn't an issue. And and I do think that's the answer to that question. The right person won't care.

Right? Because ultimately, that reveals more about them, then, you know, if if they are, if that if it's too scary, or too much, yeah.

And also, maybe it's not even a judgement of them. It's just something they can't deal with. Or maybe they didn't. I mean, it's hard to know in the moment when you're dating, but there are people you feel like you're in love with who you know, 20 years later, you realize, like, I did really love that person back then. But I couldn't have been married to them for 30 years. Like there's something special about my wife and my relationship. Because I don't know how aware everyone is but like, you're really hard to be in another with another person for this long. It doesn't. Yeah, if a lot of things that you can't even imagine when you're young, if they don't mesh well. It's just it's very difficult. And it's too easy to get out of a marriage. So people will will bail before they even try sometimes. But that's not my point. My point is, seriously, the right person won't care. That's right. That's what I think. So and you'll probably still end up divorcing them for different reasons. So don't even worry about stopping people to talk to her divorced. It's like wanting to isn't it?

Oh, I don't know. Yeah.

Always wanting to be upbeat. I had someone on here recently. I know you have to go by. So I'll end by telling you I just interviewed somebody a couple of weeks ago, who at the end of the interview told me that their family saw you and it was a huge help. Oh, that's wonderful. So I won't share anybody's personal details, because I think that's wrong. But they were very, very complimentary about the time they spent with you. Oh, thank you. Thank you very much. Still big patients in California.

Yes, that is still the rule. Yes. But yeah, anywhere in California, because we now have the telehealth comfort. So that's a great option. Oh, cool.

Well, I will definitely put in your URL here. I want you to know that as I just kind of like highlight something here, we got through what I would consider to be a very small fraction of this thread, which I have been scrolling through the entire time I was talking just now. Okay, and so I just wow, I just got to the end. Now a lot of them might end up being worded differently, but being duplicates of each other. But I really appreciate you spending the time going through this with me because I felt a real responsibility to this thread after I posted it and I did not know what to do. Like I got I really like I there was a moment when I was like, Oh, I messed up. I shouldn't have done this. Like, like I'm not qualified I in my mind. This was gonna be like Jenny and I doing like short episodes about questions. Right. Just did not go that way.

Well, I'm glad we were able to get through a portion.

Yeah, me too. Oh, so listen, at the end. Let's share this with everybody. My favorite place to cry is in the shower. Where's yours?

Oh, you know, I'm I'm a good car crier. But also the shower. Yeah.

I actually think that's good for people to know that. I think that at some point, all this is overwhelming. And you have to just let go of it. Because if you hold on to it, it's just it's, it's debilitating. And it'll it'll impact you in ways you'll never see. So I like getting in the shower and crying. You can do it.

Yes. Yes, I affirm and support that 100%

Okay, thank you very much. Well, first, I want to thank everyone who sent in all those questions. There are actually more. I'll probably go back and do the rest with Erica at some point. And speaking of Erica, thank you so much for being a great voice on the Juicebox Podcast. Check her out. If you're in California at Erica horsethief.com I'd also like to thank trial net for being a sponsor of the Juicebox Podcast. I know that ad ran a little long, but it's very important, and there's a lot to understand. Trial net.org forward slash juicebox. When they ask how you heard about them, please choose Juicebox Podcast with that drop down box I hope you have a great day. I'll be back very soon with another episode of The Juicebox Podcast. He need information about the podcast, check out Juicebox Podcast comm you looking for management stuff, go find those pro tip episodes, they begin at episode 210. You're also looking for the defining diabetes series, how we eat afterdark algorithm pumping and all of the rest. Check it out at Juicebox Podcast calm. And don't forget about the private Facebook group Juicebox Podcast type one diabetes, it's completely free and has 17,000 people on it talking about diabetes. Alright, listen the episodes over. But if you want to hang out for a couple more minutes, I'm going to explain to you why I think taking the survey at the T one D exchange is so important. If you don't want to hear it, it's cool. Just push up and go listen to another episode of The Juicebox Podcast. I'm here to ask you to join the T one D exchange registry. And that sounds like a lot something to join. Right. But you're really just taking a survey. Why am I asking you to do that? Here's why. The T one D exchange is a nonprofit research organization dedicated to accelerating therapies and improving care for people living with type one diabetes. So that's a very official statement from them. It's 100% True, but it's also kind of dry and boring. And, you know, I understand if you're not super excited by it. Here it is bare bones. You go to this website, you answer a few questions, it takes you less than 10 minutes. You can do it from your phone, you can do it. You know, while you're sitting on the toilet, if you want to, I don't really care. Although you shouldn't sit too long, because well, anyway, you don't want that problem. Let's get past why you shouldn't sit too long on the toilet and get back to this. The T one D exchange does good work for people with type one diabetes. It's why I took on this thing. They came to me and they said can you help us get people on the registry? I said I could try I don't know if I can. And I've gotten a lot of people on the register, I'm not gonna lie to you a lot. But this is diabetes Awareness Month and I thought maybe, you know, maybe you'd be in the Spirit to help people with type one a little extra. In November, the T one D exchange still needs 1000s of you to answer the survey. Why? Well, because they translate real world experiences into real world solutions. And those solutions make lives easier for people with type one. It's their goal to help type one families through research at the clinical level, through their quality improvement collaboration. And through research at the personal level through their ti 1d Exchange. Now, what's the exchange, you can read all about this, by the way AT T 1d exchange.org forward slash juicebox. But I appreciate you listening to me as I explained it to you. So the exchange is a research study that's designed to gather evidence real world evidence firsthand and to gather it easily and quickly through the survey. The questionnaire can be done anywhere from your mobile device, or you know, like I said earlier on the can if you want doesn't matter to me, it could be laying in bed, or just while you're sitting around at home. And since type one is a chronic condition that people live with their entire lives, participants can complete the questionnaire annually if they want to help researchers understand surviving living with type one. So imagine what this is, is you're helping with type one diabetes research without leaving your home. You don't have to go to a study center or sign up for some long thing that you have to be in for months or travel for. It's a way for you to help right from your house. Now, there may be opportunities later I've seen people on Instagram send me pictures when one girl sent me a picture of herself at the airport. She was on her way to go do a study that she was going to be paid for actually. And she learned about it through the tea Wendy exchange and was thanking me because I told her about the exchange. I can think of another person that I saw online, who is in the middle of a study for adhesives for a very popular CGM. She had a bunch of adhesives all over her and she was testing them. That was the thing that she was getting paid for. Now, not everybody gets paid for things or gets chosen for stuff, but that opportunity does exist. But you won't find out about it unless you sign up. And you know, complete the survey. Now you don't have to do those other things. They might contact you with an email and say, Hey, you want to do it at ease of studying you might go? No. And that's it and no harm no foul. You haven't hurt anybody's feelings. So that's it really it's super simple. It's T one D exchange.org. Forward slash juicebox when you get there click on join the registry today. And then answer the questions. I've done it. The answers are incredibly simple. They're not probing or terribly personal. They're general stuff about living with type one diabetes, and then you finish the survey. And that's it. You've helped them. You've helped people living with type one diabetes, and you've supported the podcast. Alright, let's go for it. Right. We have all of November. I don't know how many we can do. I think we could do a lot. Honestly, 30 days, what do they say 30 days out in November and April, June and December all the others up 31. I don't really know all the words to that. Not really the point. But I can tell you this. I have a calculator right here. If I take 1000 123 zeros and I divide it by 30 days, 33 people a day and we'd have 1000 at the end of the month. 60 people a day 2000 It's doable. There are so many people listening to this podcast, if just a small percentage of you did this, we'd make a huge difference.

Hello, everyone, and welcome to episode 659 of the Juicebox Podcast. Everybody, Erica Forsythe is back. Erica, of course is the licensed marriage and family therapist who's been on the show a whole bunch of times in a ton of different episodes. She also has had type one diabetes for well over three decades. And today, she came on this is something I guess, she came on to talk about burnout a little bit. And then I, I mean, she talked about it, she said everything she wanted to say but I completely took the conversation in a direction that was more about I don't know my, I guess my fascination with people's minds how they're built, fortitude versus struggle, that kind of stuff. I think it's really interesting. But I talked way more than I meant to there's something about Erica, that makes me very comfortable. Please remember, while you're listening that nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise, always consult a physician before making any changes to your healthcare plan. Or becoming bold with insulin. If you wait for the end of the episode, Eric and I announce some things that we're going to do in the future together. This episode of The Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by the Omni pod dash, a tubeless insulin pump that you may be eligible for a free 30 day trial of Learn more at Omni pod.com forward slash juicebox. Today's episode of the podcast is also sponsored by the Contour Next One blood glucose meter. It's little, it's accurate. It fits in your pocket. And it gives you those numbers those sweet sweet numbers. Super, super accurate, sweet, sweet numbers. Contour next one.com forward slash juicebox. Erica, the timing of this recording is interesting, because not too long ago, I recorded with Jenny about does Jenny burnout and being 1,000,000%? Honest, I didn't know what Jenny was going to say. Like I didn't like send Jenny a you know, an email and say, Hey, have you ever experienced burnout we should talk about on the podcast I just said let's talk about burnout. And she said okay, when she said that she hasn't ever really experienced that. I'm like, Okay, well, this is her truth. And let's talk about it. Well, Erica, then I got a number of messages from people who were not thrilled that I didn't talk to somebody who had been through birth. And I was like, Well, I've got Erica on the schedule coming up. So let's get to that instead. So, I mean, you understand, you know, the podcasts like I don't, I'm not setting things up to happen in a certain way. I just I had the conversation. Jenny, you know, is a specific person, and she's pretty great at managing herself. And on top of that is, uh, I don't know, she's an active person she eats well, like, you know what I mean? Like, maybe her diabetes is just easier to manage for some reason. Or maybe it's just specific to her wiring in her brain. Like, who knows, you know, but I do want to talk about the other side of it. And I'm excited that you're here. So welcome back.

Yes. Well, thank you. I'm happy to be here. Yes. Talk about the burnout.

So let's just start on a personal level, right? You've had diabetes forever and a half, right?

Yes. 30 plus years? Actually, that's

great. Because so is Jenny. So it's easy for me to remember that you're both over 30 years. Yes. I

think we're similar in our diagnosis. Yes. Am

I crazy? So, alright, have you ever experienced it and and more, more specifically, when you hear the word burnout? What does it make you think of?

I think yes. So I will speak to my own experience. But I think with burnout, I think of it can be either a short period of time, or you know, in really sad and tragic cases, it can be forever. And burnout is comes from, you're so exhausted, you're so overwhelmed. You're so frustrated and stressed by all of the management of diabetes, and I'm not just talking about the daily blood sugar, you know, checking whether it's finger picking CGM or the injections that the pump sites but it's also you know, the doctor's appointments, the blood draws the eye appointments. And so you could be burnout could look like well, maybe you're, you're bolusing but maybe you're not checking your blood sugar. Or maybe you're kind of going through the motions but you haven't been to the doctor, you haven't had your eyes appointments in yours, you haven't had to get your, you know, your blood drawn. And, again, I think it's really important to understand that burnout, it can be, I mean, it's not just like a one time situation maybe you're busy and you went didn't go to your doctor's appointment or you didn't feel like injecting for that one meal that one time, but it is a pattern behavior. But it can be reversible. If you are in a burnout stage right now listening to this, I also want to you know, speak cope into that experience, that you might feel like you are in a hole and alone and feel like you can't get out. But I want to encourage and speak Copan to those people who might be listening who are in a kind of burnout stage right now.

I have a question. But before I ask it, I know you're using different headphones today and usually do or they appaled wired

headphones. They are wired Apple Yes. Do you want me to switch?

I want your hair to stop touching them. Oh, okay. That's all okay. Or might be my scarf. Let me take that something's rubbing it. That's okay. Okay, thank you. No, no, please. Is that better? I won't know till you start talking again. So my initial question as a man, I mean, listen, I'm a neophyte on this. I don't have diabetes. But I have been alive for 50 years. And I feel like I've experienced burnout on a number of things in my life. So is it? Is it a similar feeling? And a similar situation to anything else? I mean, could a person just get sick of getting up every day at seven o'clock and going to work or cleaning the house? Or like things that are repetitive that feel burdensome? Like is that? I mean, is this a common human feeling? Or do you think it's very specific to diabetes?

Oh, I think it's definitely a common human experience of feeling burnout, going up going to work, getting, you know, maybe getting the getting the kids to school, making dinner, cleaning the house doing all the normal errands of life. I would say maybe the difference is with diabetes, burnout, obviously, that affects your your life and your health. But it might and that is both physically and emotionally. And not to minimize burnout in other areas. Maybe you're, you're on a you're doing like a diet and exercise regiment, you can burn out from that for periods of time. And that's a normal human phenomenon. Right? And I think to anticipate and expect that is also healthy. So you're not feeling so shameful in those moments or ashamed of yourself?

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. The only thing I can, but it made me think of just now when you said that, is that when my wife and I first got married, and we were talking about what we thought it meant to be married, you know, for your whole life. I remember saying, I don't know, like, by the time it's over, if we have, you know, eight, great years, nine, okay, years, three pretty great years, six crappy years, like, like, I don't know, like, I don't expect the whole thing to be not that I wouldn't work at it. But I would expect the ebbs and flows like Like everything else. And you don't mean like talking about this, just what you've been saying. First off, makes it feel so clear to me, that people need to understand that they haven't caught some special diabetes, flu, you know, what he mean? Like that this is how people's minds work. And that it could happen to you differently than it happens to me or more frequently, or less severe, etc. Like, it's not, it's not an experience, that's just, you know, it's not going to be one size fits all, I guess, is what I'm saying.

Correct? Yeah. And I read a stat recently that over 50% of adults with type one experience, burnout or, and kind of a distress burnout situation, at least once a year. And I think what you were referencing, you know, in terms of your marriage, it's managing your expectations in terms of, can I live this perfect marriage or have a perfect diabetes, being a perfect diabetic, so to speak, and having this perfect straight line and all of the things I think it's okay to strive for excellence and to strive for healthy management, but in that, having appropriate expectations, helps prevent the disappointment and, and which then goes back to the shame and feelings of you know, pain and frustration and exhaustion and isolation, I think is the other big factor.

Okay, and then commingled with health, which is what you were trying to say earlier, and then you're such a kind person, you you were like undaunted it couldn't happen to other people. But but your health is the I mean, it's really what makes it so emergent, right? Like if I if I burn out on vacuum The worst that's gonna happen is I have a dirty rug. If I burn out on Pre-Bolus thing, my a one C is gonna go up two points, then that's a different situation like it really is, it makes it more. I think I think you just said it, it makes it feel more like a failure, I would imagine. It makes it feel more panicky. And then you see people roll into that feeling all the time, like, well, you know, I mean, you know, like, I guess to bring it to a diet metaphor, like I already gained three pounds, What's five pounds, I already gained five pounds. What's, you know, I mean, like, my blood sugar is 150. Now, it's always 180. Now, it's always 200. And you just sort of incrementally I'll, you just you allow for more and more, because it starts to feel like, like, there's no way to get back to it. And I know that just something people struggle with, in general, like, how do I get back to where I mean to be when it feels like, this weight is on me? And it just gets heavier and heavier as times pass? So what's the answer to that question? Like, how do you reset? Is there a blanket statement for that? Or no?

Oh, gosh, yes. Well, I think resetting I think the example you just shared, I would want to pause and say, Well, what what are you telling yourself? What are you thinking? What do you what are you thinking, which obviously affects your feelings, which affects your behaviors. And so if you're thinking, kind of your self talk is negative. And I'm never going to be able to get back to where I was, I'm never going to be able to figure out how to manage my blood sugar's in the way that I know I should, how. So kind of really, if you're in a very self deprecating, really negative self talk space, I think it would be healthy to reach out for help. And which is obviously a hard I know, we've talked about this a lot. It's a really hard first step. Because when you're in that zone of cycling through, I'm a bad diabetic, I can never figure this out. I'm always high. I'm or I'm always going up and down the roller coaster. I don't know how to do this. I think it is kind of a two prong approach. And I know we have talked about Will you need the tools to learn how to how to manage your blood sugar. Right. So one is one isn't having the skill set. But then also there's the the health and well being of your of your psyche and how you were talking to yourself, and how you're feeling about yourself in connection to your diabetes management. And that's when it's healthy. A healthy first step would be to reach out to your endocrinologist and asking for either some help or a referral to a therapist. Because I think that's when it's beneficial to not only learn the skill set of how to manage, but then also kind of process through How did you get to this place of feeling burnout? And what kind of feelings felt so overwhelming, that you stopped taking your insulin?

So to me, this brings up the two these two things in my head that I think, support each other, or let me see what you think. Now, you know, because you've been on the podcast for a while, and who excuse me, I apologize. And people who listen know that for me. I mean, I'm not a mental health professional, and I don't have diabetes, but it's always been my hope or my assertion that having good tools would make management easier. And when I met and when that management is easier, that hopefully that would alleviate some of the burden some feelings that diabetes brings. I know that's not 100% True. I know it's not going to work for everybody. I've talked to people who understand management backwards and forwards and still, you know, experience exactly what we're talking about today. But you you brought up something, I'm going to use the wrong word here and you're going to correct me okay. But attitude. And I know it's not attitude when it's mental health, but it's what is it? It's intense. It's how you move forward. It's the like, I feel like you're talking about a bigger subject. I think you're talking I feel like you'll tell me if I'm wrong. I feel like you're talking about just fortitude like general life fortitude, and that you're going to run into things. And that if your expectation or your response is oh here something went wrong. I guess the whole thing's in the crapper. I'll just give up versus somebody who runs into a problem and just does not relent. They press forward and press for and I know that's not always a conscious decision that can be made that some people's brains are just wired differently. But I mean, is that what you're saying is it's just about how you attack the problem and how you think of it.

I I would agree to that. Yes, a little bit. I think it's about mindset, right? And how either how you're wired or how you've learned to respond to either trauma. I mean, obviously with this is that because it's chronic management, right? Learning how to manage your diabetes is a forever thing. And so having a positive mindset is definitely helpful. But just because you have a positive outlook, attitude, Mantra mindset, doesn't mean that you won't experience these challenging emotions at some point. Yeah, I think then learning then knowing what to do with them is the next step. Because what, and I think we're kind of getting more into, like, what we people would define as distress, diabetes, distress, like, you can still have an amazing a one C, you can still know how to manage and Pre-Bolus and do all of the all the things that you have, you know, taught so well on the podcast, but maybe you're still have a fear of hypoglycemia. Or maybe you still are struggling around food, or maybe you're still struggling around how people engage with you, whether it's friends or family about type one, but you know how to manage it well. And so those still, those little moments can still cause this distress. Throughout your life, even if you've if you know how to manage, yeah, and then that, then it's okay, I'm starting to feel overwhelmed. I'm hearing myself say, I'm so irritated by diabetes, why do I have to have this? Or why does? Why do my friends at school? Keep talking to me about it? Or why do they keep saying, Can you eat that? Can you eat that, like those if they're little, those are like little blips on the radar that will happen, you know, for our entire life. And then it's learning how to respond to like, it's okay to have those feelings. Obviously, it's okay to be frustrated. It's I talk about a lot with my, my families, my and my clients, it's okay to be angry and frustrated with having type one, right? That's a normal response, and said, Okay, now, what are we going to do with that? Can we express it? Can we process that, as opposed to then spiraling further further into a hole? Right, which then leads to the burnout? Does that make sense? It does. Okay,

I'm not a Listen, I'm not a I'm not a bootstraps person, like I would never turn to you and be like, try harder. You know what I mean? Like, I don't feel that way. And I understand that a lot of people have a lot of different impacts that maybe are lifelong, or, you know, something that makes this trauma feel, you know, reflective of something that's happened to them in the past. I only have myself like, I only know that I raised like, I don't I'm always I'm endlessly interested about this. Because my wife grew up in a tough situation. I grew up in a much harder situation. I don't know why. I'm a head down, keep moving move forward person and not a oh my god, what happened to me, this is a disaster. I give up. And I don't think I can take credit for it is what I'm saying. And I don't you know what I mean? Like, I don't know what it is about me or the situation that I came through and all the people who impacted me along the way, or didn't, I just turned out the way I turned out. And so is it just as simple as like, you know what I mean? Like, I know, I'm asking like a deeper question that you probably don't have the answer to but, but is it just random? Is it just random that, that I'm the God? Like, if the zombies come, Erica, come find me. We're living through it. Okay. I don't know why. I just know, Scott wins in the end, okay. It's how it's how it's just always gone for me. How is that a function of my decision making? Is it a function of something that happened to me in the past? And is it and and what about the person who sees the zombies and just lays down and goes, Okay, eat me. Surrender. Yeah, you know, like, like, that's not that's, they can no more be told that they're at fault for that, then I can be given credit for my response. That's how I think about it, but I don't know how that helps people. I'm going to take a moment to tell you about the Omni pod dash. It's an insulin pump. It doesn't have any tubing, which means it's not connected to anything. You just wear it on your body. And then that thing that's on you the pod. It's not connected to anything else. So you don't have to disconnect from a controller to bathe or swim or play soccer for example. You also don't have any tubing so it can't get caught on doorknobs, kitchen cabinets. You don't I mean if you're walked past the kitchen cabinet and gotten the the loop on your sweatpants and it's like, almost pulls you over. You know, I'm talking you know, I'm talking about That could happen with tubing on an insulin pump, but not with the Omni pod. Now my daughter has been wearing it on the pod. Gosh, since she's four years old, every day since then, on the pod has been with Arden. And it has been absolutely. I like to tell people, it's been a friend, it really has been a comfort, an amazing tool, and something that we just couldn't do without. Now you can learn more about it Omni pod.com forward slash juice box. Once you get there, you can get started, you can learn more about the device. Or you can see if you're eligible for a free 30 day trial of the Omni pod dash. Now, to me that makes sense, right? You take the trial 30 days, by then you're going to know what you think. And you can make a good informed decision without costing you any money. omnipod.com forward slash juicebox. Now you might be thinking Yes, Scott, but I'm waiting for Omni pod five. So I don't want to I don't want to get started with dash right now. I hear that. But you don't have to worry about that. Because of the Omni pod promise me promise is simple. Here's an example of how you can put it in action, you get the free 30 day supply of the dash. And let's say they only pod five comes out like a month later. There's no need to wait for that on the pot five. Because with the Omni pod promise, you can upgrade to Omni pods latest technologies for no additional cost as soon as they're available to you and covered by your insurance. For full safety risk information and Omni pod promised terms and conditions, as well as safety risk information and free trial terms and conditions. You can visit Omni pod.com forward slash juicebox. Now you're going to have that nice pod and you're going to want to know what your blood sugar is. And you're going to want it to be superduper accurate. Here's how you do that. You get yourself a Contour Next One blood glucose meter contour next one.com forward slash juicebox. This meter is easy to sell it sells itself. Why is that? Well, it's small but not too small. If it's in your pocket or in your diabetes bag, it has Second Chance test strips meaning you can touch the blood knock it quite enough and go back and get more without ruining the accuracy of the test. Having said that, it doesn't need very much blood for that test. This meter rocks nice bright light for nighttime use screen is super easy to read. If you want to pair it with an app on your iPhone or Android you can and if you don't want to you don't have to best darn blood glucose meter my daughter's ever used bar none. Hold up my hand like I'm in court getting ready to testify. I promise. I swear to tell the truth. The whole truth no butchers. Get yourself a Contour. Next One blood glucose meter contour next one.com forward slash juicebox amazing website ton of information. I haven't even scratched the surface, get over there. Links in your show notes links at Juicebox Podcast comm.

And I feel like we're talking about you know, is it is it resilience? Is it and and how is that? Is it nature? Is it nurture? is a little bit of both? I would I would look at you know, what was your what was modeled for you and your family? As a child? What was what kinds of other traumas or stressors were you exposed to as a child? And how did you see the people around you respond to those? Yeah. You know, for some families when their child is diagnosed, it can be a very, I mean, it's obviously traumatic for anyone in the beginning. And then there are some families who say we're going to this isn't going to stop you. We're going to do all the things all the time. And then there are some families who it might it might take longer for them to get to that kind of baseline. Okay, we've we're going to get through this and that's okay.

So I I'm not minimizing anything, but I can tell you raising my kids that, you know, Arden got hit once in the knee with a softball while she was pitching by a much bigger girl. And I mean it down to her like he went down hard, right? And my wife's like, go check on her. I was like the coaches with her. And she's like you have to go out to and I'm like, she'll be alright letter. I Kelly's panicking. I'm like, Kelly, listen, if she's dead, she's already dead. There's nothing we can do about it. I said, But, but Right. But this is literally what I said to my wife. Don't be jealous ladies. And I said if she's dead, she's already dead. There's nothing we can do about it. But if she's going to be okay, one day, let her figure it out on our own for a minute. Like let's not make her think that every time something happens to her we're going to run behind her scoop her up and be like it's okay. And I did make my way to her. But not you don't mean like I wasn't running on the field screaming my baby, you know, like it was right away, let it play out that little girl, you guys will know Arden now is being five, seven and oh, she's a woman. But back then Arden was five, three, she weighed like 90 pounds. And she was tiny. And she got up, continued to pitch the inning, got the rest of her outs, bunted in the next inning, ran the first and then walked over to me and said, I think I should stop playing. Okay. So I said, Hey, no problem, what's wrong? And she's like, My knee is really swelling up. And I said, okay, so Oh my gosh. But that little moment, I think is why when you hear Arden interviewed on the podcast, you say to yourself, like, that kid just sounds like she doesn't even care that she has diabetes, because on some level, I don't think she does. Like I think that it's not I should say that it's not a number one stressor in her life. And it is a pain in the butt. Like she just came in here. 20 minutes before you and I recorded. She comes in and she goes, Hey, let's go get lunch and I said, I'm gonna record with Eric. And now I can't and she's like, Ah, she made a little disappointed face. And then I said, um, but I'll be done in about an hour. I'm gonna jump in the shower, we can go. And she's like, Okay. And then I said, is your pump almost out of insulin? And I watched her thing her eyes rolled back in her head. She thought and she goes, Yeah, I'll go change it. And I was like, okay, and she loved it. But no, like, no, like Scarlett O'Hara moment? No, what was me? I can't believe this is happening. You know? And I don't know, like, to me. It's a fine line when you're raising children, right? Like you. You have to let them stand on the edge by themselves. But they have to know you're there. But not feel like they don't have to do it. But But what happens if you're 19 or 20 years old? That's not how you were raised? What if somebody I don't want to say coddled, because I really do think, Erica, that when people talk about this nowadays? It's just? I don't know, I think it's I don't know, I don't think they talk about it correctly. I think people make overly simplified generalizations. We coddle kids now, you don't I mean, pressure makes diamonds. And they don't say anything else. Like, alright, well, pressure also makes you pressure also makes anxiety ridden people like, flip there. You know, you have to support people. You know, I hate using these likes. I hate using Office words, but you have to meet people where they are. So I can't believe I just said that. I feel like that was that was really good. I know. But I feel like an idiot say like, it's like if I ever said let's think outside of the box, I'd be the right person to be like, Oh, Scott, shut up. But, but it's just 100% True. You have to meet people where they are you have to raise your children who they are, not who you want them to be or what you think a perfect scenario would be. So then my question keeps coming back to me is now we've kind of covered the parenting aspect of it. I mean, if no one's paying attention, what I'm saying to you is let your kids struggle a little bit, but not too much. You figure out where it fits my opinion. But what I really want to hear from you is adults or adolescent children, or people you see in your practice, they come in, and this is how they see the world. It's against them. They're losing, it's too hard. Where do you where do you where would you begin to get somebody back and say, This is no harder for you than this for anybody else. And that person is doing great. Let's get you thinking more like that person?

Well, I would never say that. But

you wouldn't have a professional. Erica, you understand like? Good? Well, I

would first I would commend them for taking the first step for seeking help. Because that's often you know, the most challenging thing when you're in a state of burnout or high distress. I think I would also be curious to learn about their upbringing. You know, thinking about your story or softball story with Arden. I was wondering, you know, when you were a little boy, how were you tended to when you got hurt or had a hard day at school.

I grew up in the 70s. I was taught to swim by being thrown in a pool and somebody's going he probably won't drown. When I fingers crossed when I was picked on it as a child, I can't believe I have to pull references in a row. But when I was picked on as a child can 1112 years old by the kid in I grew up in an apartment complex. The kid in the apartment complex that basically terrorized everyone he was older and bigger and stronger. In my mind. He was like Lou Ferrigno. I'm sure he wasn't. He would hold us underwater in the pool during the summertime. And I and my mom told me figure it out.

There you go. There you go. Go figure it out. You were, you know, you were encouraged to, and I'm sure there was some sort of safety, sense of safety and nurturing, but also because you you do that as a father or your, you've learned that. And so I would be curious to hear just kind of what has been their history of dealing with stress. And when things are hard, how do they respond, I also would spend a lot of time normalizing the experience because being feeling like you're in a state of burnout, and you're, you're stressed out and overwhelmed, it's not. It's not a complication. It's not a sight. It's not, yeah, it's not a complication of having type one, or diabetes, type two, it doesn't matter. It's a part of living with it. And so I think helping, helping the client see that they're, they're not alone is a huge part of healing and growth, because I think you do get stuck in that. I'm the only one who can't figure this out. I'm the only one who's so burdened by living with this chronic illness. And so it is it is a normal part of living with type one. And so and then moving into a place of compassion as a result, I think once you realize that you're you're not alone, you can start to be kinder to yourself. And that's also another step towards healing is just learning how to nurture yourself and be compassionate and kind that way that maybe you didn't experience as a child and needed to

how much of this is about your expectation for what should be?

Oh, I think it's, it's majority of like, I having your expectation that it's everything is your going to be perfect. And get, you know, the time everything perfectly, have the correct response. And all of it is a big is a big part of it. And so I think understanding that you can't be a perfect, quote, diabetic, that you are going to have in there, they're going to be moments, not just like mistakes on it on a daily basis, or like whoops, I Bolus, you know, four units, I should have probably done double that or should have started that, you know, people sooner. That's, that's totally normal. But then also being kind to yourself when you when you're in when you're in burnout. So it's like they think they practicing self compassion in the moment to moment, but then also in the larger, you know, grander scheme of where you are emotionally.

So you hear people say this, I think they're half and joking, and they're half being serious. But I've heard a lot of people say this, and I have to be honest with you, I I subscribed to this a little bit as I was coming up. So again, it's not diabetes, but I grew up really broke. My dad left when I was 13. We didn't have any money. My mom was always working. I was raising my brothers. By the time I was 13 and a half, like, you know, they were like, in five. I have the bar set so low, Erica. I walk across the room and nothing bad happens. I'm like we are winning. Finally, coming together for Scott, and like, so I really do think that I think that because I was I because I grew up in a situation that just wasn't full of things going the way you wanted or wins. Then anytime something went even reasonably, right. I was like, Hey, we're removing like, we're moving forward. I'm getting there, you know. And I don't I mean, obviously, nobody wants my upbringing. But I don't know how you I remember feeling when my kids were little that we had, we had a send a little bit, my wife and I had better our lives. And I remember worrying, where is my son's friction going to come from? Mm hmm. You know, like, how can you? How can he How can he learn to see the zombies and laugh? If everything that happens to him is always perfect. And that anytime something goes wrong? It's tough. I'll tell you right now, his health had been perfect till he was 21 when he got Hashimotos he had a much harder time with it than Arden would have. Because nothing had gone wrong in 21 years for him. And it was it was it was more of a process now that's when my wife and I come in and support him. And you know, it's tough because you're you're supporting a person who might not want to hear your support at times. So you have to kind of be like a ninja about when you slip it in sometimes and not go too far. And there's a whole there's a skill set in too into getting thoughts into people's heads without, without them pushing back so hard that you don't get to say the next thing. But I don't know, I just to me expectations got to have a lot to do with it. And from there it's perspective.

Yes. And I think also what you're talking about is like, because you went through the challenging times, not only did that build resilience, but its sense of, you know, grit, that's a big term these days in the mental health world is, which a lot of people also experienced, you know, but now coming out of the pandemic of like, this sense of grit, like we can get through this, but that doesn't always end and also, the challenges has brought you to a place of gratitude. And so I think, fine, it's like finding that balance of okay, I can experience the stressors and these hard moments. But you also have found, at least in your own story, you know, moments of gratitude, when things are things go well, and you're, you're excited and you celebrate.

Yeah, I also think that on social media, I'm not a big proponent of, you know, blaming social media for things, but I do get why seeing people struggle online is important. Like I like when people share honestly, I guess, because then you can look and go, Oh, hell, like, that happens to me, I thought I was the only one but happen to that person, too. I try my hardest to balance, hope about management of diabetes on the podcast with remembering to tell people like my kids, blood sugar is not always 90. You know, they may not like I know it, could I know you can hear Arden's a one C and think, Oh, she must walk around with a 92 blood sugar constantly. Straight line all day long. Yeah, now that works. And so but but what I do is, I limit highs, I limit the length of spikes, like I get, you know, I don't you know, where some people, you know, think of as a higher number, you get the 140, I start getting a little like a I don't like how this is going, you know, 180 I consider high. And all I learned about that, that that example for Arden's care was that at 180, I could crush that high and bring it back down without creating a low. So I just changed in my mind the definition of a high blood sugar. That's all I did, right? Because prior to that, I thought High was 300. Right? Right. And that's it. So I just decided that high went one ad, which changed how I reacted to things, which changed my outcome was like that. So and but somebody needs to say that to you once so that, you know. And I mean, Eric, I don't know how much you actually get to listen to this podcast. But I've spoken to just I mean, close to 1000 people at this point. Now, and everyone's stories are fairly similar. The reasons why people do well versus struggle. There's a ton of similarities in there, most of the time, it's got nothing to do with them. It's got to do with the random stuff, like meeting the right doctor, or having a parent who didn't help too much and didn't help too little, you know, having some hope. Like, like meeting people who have diabetes, hearing other people's stories, like all these very common through lines. Yes. You know what I mean? Like, in the end? I think that's, I mean, that's what we're talking about, right? Like, we're not just talking about how do you save somebody who's so far down the burnout hole that they can't see the light anymore? You're also talking about? How do you stay out of it to begin with or limit your time in it? I think,

yes. And I think all of those things are very common, you know, key factors in helping you survive, living with type one, you know, the community, not feeling like you're alone, having the support, having a doctor who understands having the hope, I think as a human belief that you're going to be okay, and hope that you it won't it there will be moments and seasons where diabetes might feel more challenging. And there are all sorts of you know, those, they're the normal stressors of life. And, but understand that it's not always going to be like that. I think that's, that's a common misunderstanding. And when you're feeling down, you feel like you're always gonna feel that down. But to remember that, you know, those those it passes, it does pass and to have hope and understanding that it will helps you kind of get through those stages.

It feels to me like expecting that everything isn't going to be perfect without dreading that everything isn't going to be perfect is a big key, right? Like knowing that. I mean, listen, everyone has who uses insulin is going to agree with that. I'm gonna say doesn't matter how well things are going in the back of your head you're like, This is gonna get sideways at some point. I don't know when and I don't know why. but I am gonna just like, you know, all of a sudden, like see a blood sugar is just creeping 9110 120 You're like, Oh God, this is never gonna stop. I haven't said this a little while but those kinds of those kinds of blood sugars that remind me that price is right.

Yes, the claiming Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. Cuz they they're like yo Lee and there's this you're like that happens and the whole time you're watching it you can see the person playing the game like it's gonna stop. It's gonna stop, it's gonna stop and then it doesn't it falls off the edge. Yes, that's how I That's how. That's how I think of those climbing blood sugars. On a side note, a woman sent me a text today and asked me if I was dyslexic because she said that Dyslexics think in pictures. I'm not dyslexic, but I never heard that before. Yeah, visual. Yeah, I just, I just my brain makes connections to things that don't appear to have anything to do with.

Well, you I was right there with you. I was totally envisioning the guy climbing the mountain. I can hear

the yodeling. I mean, I don't even think Drew Carey, I think Bob Barker, and that

Oh, for sure. Oh, no, for sure. Yes, Tiny. Microphone. He

had everything? Yes. But so like when you're in that situation, and people have heard me say it on the podcast a lot. And I believe in it, like one of the keys to diabetes management is not to give into the drama. And like, that's how I used to think of it. But as we're having this conversation, I mean, it might be a little reductive to say drama, but at the same time, I'm not going to apologize for it. Because I mean it and I think it's accurate. You can't have something happen and start running around like, Oh, what was me this is i This is how it's gonna be everything sucks. You, to me, you use that moment to try to figure it out. It's an example for you to look at, you make a better decision next time with insulin, which is most likely where it went wrong. And, and and it's a learning experience, because every time you ignore a learning experience, it becomes a, it's a it's another problem. That's just going to happen again. And you know, so what I see happen to people, when I'm kind of watching them online and talking to them, is that some people throw themselves into the despair. And some people steel up their spine and fight back. I'm endlessly fascinated by who is who.

Right and how, how did they get there? Right?

Oh, I'm never gonna not be interested in that. Yes. You know, I don't think there's an answer, like I said, but it's fascinating to me.

Oh, absolutely. And I think yeah, there is no kind of general summary statement that you can make as to how or why you fall into either category. I think it's, it's all it's all the factors that we, that we talked about.

So I'm going to draw a line here. Okay, you're probably gonna disagree with me. But anyway, that's what will make this fun. Okay, and I'm not saying dollar for dollars, apples to apples. Okay. But in the last handful of years, in society in general, online, specifically, I feel like I'm seeing people who want to be upset. Does that make sense? Like not that like, like, they, they're, I don't know, somebody says something social or political or something like that. And if you're just reasonable about it, and step back, you go, alright, I see what they're saying. Or, you know, I don't agree, but whatever. But instead, they feel like that's an opening to proselytize their idea. Right. Like, it's almost like they're looking for an opening to say something. Mm hmm. I wonder if, similarly, but not the same. If when something goes wrong in someone's life, if they're just, they're just almost happy, and maybe subconsciously happy to have a reason to complain? Like, they just want to tell the world like, this sucks. I have diabetes. And you can't say that to people. You can't walk around going, oh my god, everything's terrible. I gotta shoot that I got this pump on. I'm doing this. I hate all this. Right, like, so it's just a great opportunity to commiserate maybe just with yourself. Because there's no one else. Like, that's what I'm starting to think like, do you just does it give you the opportunity to just sit down for a second and feel bad for yourself? Because you don't have anybody else to talk about it with day to day? Like, I don't know how and I guess

you're wondering like, is that how people kind of get to a stage of burnout? Or you're saying is that an opportunity for them to it's okay to validate the challenges to yourself

as ironic as this is gonna sound? I think both. I think that it's, I don't think there's anything wrong with stopping for a minute and going oh, my God, this is hard. I wish this was not happening to me. But I don't know how valuable that is for you to do with any real consistency. I have had my absolute thoughts. I have stood in a room privately and thought how the hell did this happen to my kids? When I look around I see so Are many other people who do not have concerns like this. How is my smart and funny and pretty daughter always worried about this thing or always having to think about this thing or waking up in the morning and tell me hey, my stomach hurts. I don't know what it's from. Or, you know, the other night, Erica, her toes started to go numb. Oh, Arden's been Arden's been tested for everything under the sun. And she, she has hypothyroidism and type one diabetes. Like there's nothing that points to any other thing. Addison's or whatever, whatever anyone's gonna hear and think of next, right. Trust me, we've looked, okay. So I believe, thank you. And yet, here's my daughter trying to do homework. Dad, my toes are numb, can you just squeeze them? So they don't hurt like this till it stops? 17? Why is that gonna happen to her? And and if I were to think that over and over again, that would crush me. Right? So I squeeze your toes, and then we get up and we keep moving. You don't mean like you? You just can't like, Eric, it's too much, it'd be too much. Like, I think the problem that I just realized with this conversation, is that I think of myself, I think of myself as a person who's going to beat the zombies. And I believe that, but I don't know that that's true. I just think it's important that I believe it. Right? You know, I mean?

Gosh, I think you just touched on a lot of different things. I think having the space, like I see, you know, in the Facebook group, who are like, particularly people who are newly diagnosed, often caregivers will will share and grieve. And they receive the validation. And I think that's a beautiful place to share your initial grief and and then you receive the the validation and the community support. It's just, it's beautiful. And I see that all the time. That's totally healthy, and appropriate, I think. And then you're wondering, but how I think we want to look at is it becoming a pattern in your response to living with the chronic illness or being the caregiver for it? I think, yes, it is so normal and healthy, to to commiserate and to let them out. And say I cannot believe we're still dealing with this or now where you know, all the like the transitions going into high school, going into college, having children, maybe your your doctor moves, or you have to change insurance, and you have to change doctors, all of those things. Or you have you been on all all of the different factors in management. Within life transitions are definitely opportunities to to vent and grieve with your, with your family, with community. But I think you're wondering, like, when does that become? If that is your automatic thought and response to daily management, whether you are the person with type one or the caregiver, then that would be a time to maybe look internally and say, Gosh, I'm not sure I know how to manage this emotionally. And I need to reach out for more professional help, right, because I think I do want to normalize that the process of grieving. And that's what it is. I just think if you're feeling the loss of normalcy, but then you're having that balance, sorry,

no, no, you have to be able to talk to some, I mean, in the end, if we if we strip all this down, you're a little kid, you didn't get good communication for your parents, or you didn't get good communication from a doctor or you didn't have good communication with other people who have diabetes. And now here you are these problems that you thought, Oh, this is never gonna affect me, I'm good start to pile up on you. You have to go seek out someone to talk to like it could be Erica, if you live in California, or worry, it could be a friend or I know a lot of people listen to the show because hearing other people's problems helps alleviate their own. You know, like whatever it is, but you can't just sit there and hope it's not going to happen or that it's going to go away. Because that's not gonna work. That's just going to get worse and worse and worse. Right now is conversation about it too, no matter where you have the conversation.

Yes and then and then learning how to because as we know there will be challenging moments with with not just diabetes but in life and learning how to respond how to give yourself that like the validation and then having to move on and I'm sorry to hear about artists toes by the way, I skipped over I wanted to say they hope that you that it becomes resolved. You're very

nice. We're gonna cut our toes off and fix something if we had all Verto surgically removed then the tip of her foot started to tingle. Oh my gosh. Anyway, then it would turn into like a weird horror movie where eventually Arden would just be a nub. Anyway That's not here nor there. We're not going to cut off her toes. She has an appointment in a couple of days with a integrative endocrinologist and we're gonna just keep, we're gonna keep hacking away until we figure something out. But we're not going to stop living while we're trying to figure it out. Meaning meaning that if Listen, I'm not saying that this is the truth, but meaning that if Arden's life is, you know, let's say her health is let's say we have a crystal ball, we can see the future and Arden's health is going to completely degrade by the time she's 35. And she's going to spontaneously combust. Like, I still wouldn't sit around today and go woe is me, I'd be like, get the college, learn the thing, get good at what you're doing, meet people live your life. I think that's just super important to remember that, that this is gonna sound so hippy, but you're not promised any certain amount of time. And so the truth is, you just got to live the best you can day to day. And you know, some people, some people get to walk through a field of flowers through their life, and not too much goes wrong for them. And some people are being shot with arrows while they're trying to walk forward through that, that field of flowers. But in my mind, I want to be the guy that gets hit with the arrow and doesn't stop. Like, I want to, I want to take as many of them as I can before I give up. And I just think that that's you can think of it a different ways. Like maybe it's fake it till you make it. Or maybe it's just a little bit of little blip of blind ignorance on my part. But one way or the other. I know what the alternative is. The alternative is it's over. And that's not okay for me. So I'd rather walk through that field of flowers with it with an arrow in my shoulder, then not see the field of flowers at all. I don't know, that's just kind of how I think about life. Like, I don't know how long this is gonna last. I'm not missing any of it. That's

yeah, so I love that. And I think Yeah. And how did you get there? It's all you know, your life experience.

You're bringing Erica.

Oh, my gosh. Oh, and then and then you've learned you've learned to how you want to face your day and your life. I think, as you were talking about, you know, you're you guys are live, you're moving forward. But you also are getting the doctor's appointment to kind of explore if there's something else going on. For Arden, I think that's you're able to break down, that there's this bigger concern what is happening, but you can break it down into smaller chunks, you are taking it one day at a time. I think that part of what also leads to the feeling of over I'm so overwhelmed. I have to I'm just giving up. Obviously, that's not always a conscious decision. It's just feeling like I don't even know how to get back to, you know, ground zero in terms of my functioning emotionally, physically with my management. And so finding ways to break it down and just say, Okay, well, I'm going to make an appointment. I'm going to do this, I'm not going to fix everything today. I think that's another helpful way to respond.

I'll break it down into two sentence for anybody's listening, get your Basal right Pre-Bolus Your meals, everything's gonna get a lot easier. And when it gets easier, go listen to the pro tips and make other like adjustments. I seriously mean that I don't listen, it's a good first step. You're sure five people or 5 million people listen to those pro tips. I don't make any more or less money. I don't you know, I'm just telling you, I think the informations in there. I think Jenny and I laid it out really well. And it's a way that's absorbable it's not overwhelming. And you really will see a difference. You be surprised you get those high blood sugars down and more stable, how much better you feel and how much better that makes you at being able to weather a bad day. You don't mean because you're not already. I mean, we don't talk about it enough, right? But high blood sugars, swinging blood sugars, they affect your emotions, too. And your and your guess your clarity, everything.

They in two ways they affect your emotions, not only like physically because you don't feel you don't feel good physically, which makes you feel emotionally not well. But then I think there's also like the self efficacy, self competency part of it too. Like not only do you feel physically yucky, and then you might have the I can't even figure this out.

You got file you're on top of it. Yeah. Oh, I'll tell you I just I love. I love talking about stuff like this. But you know, I just want to say this might be clinically improper. And you can do your own disclaimer afterwards. I do not. I don't ascribe to what Scott just said. But I think if you're struggling sometimes and you're listening to another person, whether it's on this podcast or it's me now or whatever it is, and you think God I wish I was more like that in that situation. Just steal it from me for a little while. Just pretend like there's nothing wrong with just pretending until I do think fake it till you make it's a real thing. You know, I there's nothing wrong with saying other people do this. Damn it. I bet you I could too. And even though this feels completely wrong to me right now. I'm just going to, I'm going to say the right things. And I'm going to do the right things. And I'm going to believe it. And maybe because the truth is, the truth is that the difference between success and failure is really just, it's just taking the right steps. Do you know what I mean by that, like you can, you can paint a wall, right? Or you can paint a wall wrong. If I teach you how to paint a wall correctly, you don't have to know about painting to paint the wall anymore. Somebody showed you what to do you do it when you're done, the walls got paint on it, five, or six or seven or 10 walls later, you actually know how to paint the wall. And then you get the outcome that you expect. So there's nothing wrong, I don't think there's anything wrong with that idea. Just to model somebody who's having success until you can create that success for yourself. Am I completely off on that? Or

no, I think I think that can work for many people having you know, it's like the mantra of like, I can do it. I'm gonna, here's, this is what I'm supposed to do. I'm gonna model what I see other people do. I'm going to fake it. And I'm going to tell myself, I have hope and belief in myself. And I think for many people that might be all they need is having that mentor having the tools. Yeah, I think there are others who might need more support getting to that place to have the hope to be able to say, I know I can do this, or I believe in myself. I know, I just need to do X, Y and Z. And so I just want to also speak to people who might be listening who are feeling like, well, I can't even say that, I can't even pretend I can't even try and fake it. Because I'm so low, I'm struggling so much. And, and that's okay to you know, to be in a place where you feel like I can't even I can't even imagine faking it till I make it because I can't even get out of bed. And so I just want to speak some compassion into that group as well, that it's okay if you're in that zone. But I think for many people, that might be the first step to having that mantra. Yeah. Has it happened to you? Did it? Did burnout ever happen to me? Yeah. I would say not in the sense of a long period of time. But I can say, burnout often might look like and this happens to a lot of the the teens that I've worked with as well, when I was a teenager, just wanting to be, quote, normal and fit in. And so maybe this was back in the day with, you know, fingerprints and injections where I wouldn't take my blood sugar. For, I wouldn't say it was all day. But there are definitely moments over long periods of time where I would not take my blood sugar because I just didn't want to deal with it, I would still inject. But that was not positive. You know, there weren't always positive outcomes with that. And so I would say burnout can look like in certain stages of life. Just wanting to ignore, like, you don't have type one, to a certain extent, and so that I did experience that for sure as a teenager in high school.

Back then, when I was younger, my friend decided to not have diabetes for a week. Then he was in the hospital, he was in decay. But if he told me afterwards, he's like, I just didn't want to do it for one week. You know, and I don't know what led him to that. And I can't ask him now because he's gone. But I guess I think we spoke about him. Yeah, but I just remember like, so clearly it happening. He just disappeared one day. And I was like I called his house. It's not like he's in the hospital, and then spoke to him afterwards. And that's all he said. He said, I just didn't want to do it for one week. But sadly, that's not the way it works. So, Eric, I've been mulling over for a half an hour where I want to tell this story, you're gonna be so horrified by it. But please remember that it happened like over 40 years ago, okay, okay. My dad grew up on a farm. And if I disagreed with him, he'd yell at me if I didn't agree with him after that. He'd smack me that was just sort of that was the process. Okay. And I remember one day, I don't know what we were talking about. But I can tell you that I was only maybe 12 years old. And he was physically imposing as a as a person, but specifically to me at 12. He looked like a, like, he looked like a monster to me. Like he was huge, you know, and he was yelling at me for something. And I knew he wasn't right. And I could have easily just said, like, alright, yeah, I'm sorry. And instead, I tried to, I tried to converse with him, which, you know, always goes really well when someone's yelling at you. And I pointed out where I thought I was right. And he didn't like that. And he smacked me. And I, I did it again. I responded again. And I think the next time he hit me, I stumbled, and I went to the ground. Like, I really want to be clear. Not that it matters. He did not knock. He didn't hit me hard enough to knock me off my feet. I literally backed up and like stumbled over something. But once I was on the ground it was too much effort to reach down to hit me. So he just started doing it with his foot instead. And it wasn't like in a movie, like he wasn't kicking me in the stomach and doubling me over, he was just like, again, not making I genuinely, I'm not, I'm not covering from A to B thing to do, no one should do it. I don't care if it was the 70s, the 80s, the 90s, or whatever, I'm not saying that, I just want to let you know, he was not kicking me to my death. And so he's now re asking the question, and saying things like, Do you agree with me now? And then I'd say no, oh, my goodness, he kicked me. And so at some point, I gathered up all of my strength. And I said, you can hit me as much as you want, it's not going to make you right. And he stopped. And I remember that moment as a triumph in my life. I don't remember it as being smacked. I don't remember it as being abuse, I remember it as me standing up for myself, and actually, being able to change make an effect of change. Like, I don't think it changed him. I don't think it made him less of who he was. But from there forward, he did not try to pressure me out of my opinion ever again. And I know that's not what's supposed to happen in a parenting relationship. I'm not, I'm not saying any of that. I'm saying, sometimes, you have to look this stuff in the face, and just be like, and just get angry. And, and stick up for yourself, kind of no matter what's gonna happen, like, in the end, like, your it, like you and your health, and this diabetes thing and all that comes with it. I think at some point, you just got to stand in front of that monster and be like, I don't care what you do. I don't give up. And I don't know, I just think I think that's a big part of who I am. And, and as much as I don't want to have a memory of being smacked as a kid. It's one of my most enduring prideful moments.

Well, Scott, think Well, thank you for being vulnerable and sharing that. I feel like that depicts and explains why and how you are the person today and how you respond to trauma. How old were you again, when this happened?

I couldn't move maybe 11 or 12 years old?

Wow. Yeah. Did you ever have an opportunity to share that? I mean, I don't know if you like kind of relationship you had with your dad as an adult, or if he's a lifestyle, I'm sorry, I don't know that.

He left about a year later. And I didn't see him until I was an adult. And maybe more than a handful of times, at the end of his life. Uh, we did see him and explained to him how all that felt. At that point. He was an older man. It's so interesting with guys, like once the testosterones gone, they're just different. You know what I mean? Like, it wasn't, I wasn't talking to the guy that smack me when I was 11. When you know, when he was in his 70s. But, you know, we were very clear with him about how I took my brothers to meet him one day, and I said, Look, I don't think we're here to make a relationship. We are here to unburden ourselves. Do not worry about how he feels you tell him how you feel. And so we did. We did that. And I mean, I was at his deathbed when he died. And I was quite glad that I was there. So yeah, I feel I don't have any that I'm aware of lingering concerns about it at all. It was also the 70s Like people hate each other for like, any reason whatsoever, it wasn't uncommon for this to happen. Erica one time I shot my brother with a BB gun just to see what would happen that 70s By the way, always wondering, it hurts like hell,

yeah. Oh, wow. I think I mean, not only did that story is obviously a part of your, your growth and, you know, character development, but that also was who you are. I mean, in that moment, that was who you are, you were, you know, sticking up for yourself for truth. And so you had, it feels like you had you were born with a sense of grit.

I want to I want to be clear that I think you are who you are in your mind. Like, like, if you're thinking back on if you're hearing that story of First of all, you're horrified. I appreciate that. I'm sorry, I had to tell it to you. But if you're picturing me as like some sort of like, in shape, buff, 12 year old kid who has that, like I was a little fat kid. Like I had no reason to stick up for myself seriously, Arca like there was nothing imposing about me. There was no that man did not think I was gonna stand up and turn the tide on him get on. I mean, like it was. All I had was what was in my heart and in my head, like that's how I think of myself. I almost don't even know what I look like. Like him. I my thoughts. That's how I that's how I think of myself. And I can't imagine something you could give me that I don't think I could conquer, I'm, I'd be wrong. But I can't imagine that thing. And there's nothing about the way I grew up that gave me any kind of confidence, like not nothing like that. I just, I don't know, I just tried to remain true to what I expect for myself. And I think I think everybody, that's a simple thing for people to do, to say I want to be healthy. And I don't want my blood sugar's to jump all over the place, damn it, and I can stand up to this and make a change. And if you don't know what to do, functionally with diabetes, just find please like it's in this podcast or find someone else. Because a lot of this goes away when you're not chasing blood sugar's around constantly. It's a huge, it's that, that that one aspect of type one, diabetes is a huge trigger for the rest of this. It's that that feeling that everything's never comfortable or settled, or the you know what you're doing. And when you can get rid of those feelings. I mean, this thing just gets, I would never say diabetes gets easy. But I think you get so good at it at some point, it can feel easy. And and that's where a lot of this goes away, I think, but maybe easier. Yeah,

I think yeah, I think the what you were just describing, you know, your thoughts are who you are. I mean, that's, I believe that as well. And that's why our thoughts are so important, because it does impact how we feel and what we do. And so I think, yes, having having the skill set, can reverse kind of that the triangle of okay, I have the I have the tools, I have the skill set, I do feel better. And now I have the thought I do have some hope. And that is a great first step to changing your thinking about how you how you deal with it,

and to communicate, just keep communicating. Because I mean, that story that I just told, I mean, I feel like I just told Erica, but you know, now I realize a few more people are going to hear it than just but but I'm not bothered by that. Because I've gone over this in my life more than once. And just communicating it and going over it just sort of it turns it more into perspective, I can draw on unless have some story about why I should be sad. You don't even because I am. I am not a sad person. I'm in eternally hopeful person. I'm telling you, if you and I were, I don't know, trapped on a desert island together. You'd be annoyed because every morning I'd wake up and I'd be like, This is it. This is the day we're getting out of here. Like and then I would set upon trying to make that happen. And if it didn't happen, I think I'll try again tomorrow.

Try it tomorrow.

I don't know. Like, I feel lucky that that's how my brain works. I'll be honest, yes.

You know, oh, thank you. I'm glad that we that you have that hope and you get your share that hope with us. And thank you again for sharing such a vulnerable memory.

Oh, you make me feel so gushy inside when you're nice.

Oh, well. I'm glad

I feel like we're at the end of our appointment and you're like okay,

I do I do.

You know what, let's, let's before we say goodbye, let's tell everybody here that you and I are going to put a defining together for for mental health in over the the rest of 2022 and start getting it out to them as soon as possible. Yes, I am excited about it. And why do you have extra time now Erica, tell them

Well, now I want full full time private practice. And so I'm very excited to to share the the future episodes with you all with Scott, and more available to meet with you all. So California

starting in June, right? You're starting in June, you're gonna go Yes. Yes. Well, I've said it when you're not being recorded a million times. But you're one of my favorite people to talk to and I'm very grateful for the way you and I go back and forth. I think it's I think it's it's hard to find people that I that I vibe with so well. And, and so I love that you're coming on. I love that you're gonna have more time. What's your website?

Erica four site.com Alright, cool.

And you have to be a California resident to to see you right?

Yes, yes. In person or telehealth,

big state. Gotta be a couple of you over that's

all. Well, thank you, Scott. I appreciate it.

No, thank you so much. I'll talk to you soon.

Okay, bye.

First, let me thank Erica for coming back on the show and let you all know how excited I am to do a defining series with her about mental health and wellness. I'd also like to thank Omni pod makers of the Omni pod dash and the Omni pod promise And remind you to go to Omni pod.com forward slash juicebox. Do you need a meter? Of course you do. Do you have a good one? No might not. But if you had the Contour Next One blood glucose meter you would contour next one.com forward slash juicebox I'd like to thank you so much for listening. Like you know, there's going to be another episode of The Juicebox Podcast coming up very soon. And remind you to check out the private Facebook group Juicebox Podcast type one diabetes, or find the show on Instagram, Tik Tok, Twitter, wherever Juicebox Podcast, go follow on the Insta gram machine, please. Thank you. I'm obviously a seasoned social media user. And you're not going to be wasting your time at all following me. You might be but just follow me anyway, please. In case I got something important to tell you. This is how I would tell you. You understand how social media works. I don't need to explain this. What else? Thanks so much for the recent reviews and ratings. They were terrific. Whoever left them good on you. Appreciate it. Glad you're loving the show. And that's pretty much it. podcast is cruising along it is doing really well. That is because of you guys. I don't say thank you enough for that. But I absolutely should be saying it every five seconds. The podcast downloads are they're just, there's it's crazy how many there are. And I I can't even take credit for the spread of the word. You guys do all that yourself. Word of mouth is how the show grows. And so I really appreciate it when you take time to tell someone else about it. Alright, again, I'll be back soon with another episode of The Juicebox Podcast. humbled that you guys listen. Thanks so much.

Hello friends and welcome to episode 691 of the Juicebox Podcast Erica Forsyth this back today she is a licensed marriage and family therapist who has had type one diabetes for over 30 years. You can catch Erica on episode 407 emotions a diagnosis and diabetes distress episode 445 supporting caregivers episode 473 Sneaking food episode 479 teen talk, Episode 514 sharing the care of a type one child episode 576 Hard type one questions from kids and episode 659. Burnout today, Episode 691 is about mom guilt. And I have the mom in quotes because it's really about guilt for both parents and adults living with type one. Please remember while you're listening that nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice medical or otherwise, always consult a physician before making any changes to your health care plan are becoming bold with insulin. I have a couple more little announcements here after the music then we're gonna get right to Erica this show is sponsored today by the glucagon that my daughter carries G voc hypo pen. Find out more at G voc glucagon.com. Forward slash Juicebox Podcast is also sponsored by the Contour Next One blood glucose meter. You can learn more about Ardens blood glucose meter at contour next one.com forward slash juicebox. And today's podcast is also sponsored by us med get your diabetes supplies at us med.com forward slash juicebox. Whereby calling 888-721-1514. Recording Here we go. So we are recording now so you know. And just give me any words I can make sure you're on.

Okay. Good morning, or good afternoon.

Yeah. Okay, you and I are doing something. Let's let Pete I don't usually let people in on this. This is going to be an episode that gets recorded and posted in the same 12 hours. Which that's exciting because today is May 30. Tomorrow, May 31, the last day of mental health awareness month. That's right, right. So we didn't do that on purpose. But hey, what the heck, let's act like we did this out. But I think people who listen know that I'm not the guy who's like it's Father's Day do Father's Day stuff. But this just worked out really well. And I have a topic that I sent you I forget how I asked you. I was like Is this a real thing? Like, like, you know, something that the doctors believe in? Because I think mom guilt is a real thing. And I want to talk about it. And you were really open to the discussion. So I appreciate that very much.

Yes, yes. And I think it is it is a real thing. I think we could we could open it even further to mom guilt dad guilt, or caregiver guilt. Just because that's where we are in our day and age. Yeah,

no, I think that too. Like I am interested if it's something that strikes females differently or harder but I don't know if that's something you can quantify or not. And you know, I mean I'm a I've been a stay at home dad forever. You know, I think I I quit my job a couple of months before my like a month or two before my son was actually born in 2000 So this is my 22nd year of being a stay at home dad I guess technically I'm more of a podcaster now but that's not really the point. And I felt the pain but I've been much more able to just not give over to it as much and I am wondering if that's person to person you know, I'm endlessly fascinated with people Yes, mental health and why decisions get made or why things happen that aren't even decisions so let me first ask you do you think it that there is some sort of physiological change that happens when you become a parent?

Yes, I probably couldn't probably speak to the old the science behind it. But I think just naturally your everything changes in terms of how you spend your day, your time your focus your priority. And I think that happens for you know, all genders. I think your your initial question of you know, is it are women or moms more prone to it, I would say probably due to gender stereotypes or gender role expectations. Stereotypically, moms may do better at that, so to speak. Yeah. But I think it can definitely both both moms and dads or any caregiver can experience this type of guilt.

Are I know you this is not your area of expertise. But do you think hormones have any impact on it for women?

Hmm. I don't know. That's a great question. I don't know. We'll have to dig into that.

One thing I can tell you for sure. Is that, that when we had our son, pretty young, I don't know how much I talked about this, like my wife was, I think, 22 When we got married, and I think that was in 1996. And four years later, look at me, I was like, when was that? And four years later, in 2000, Cole was born. So we were married for years or so. But Kelly was still just like, 26. And not that she wasn't always, Kelly's always sort of been like a hard working mature person. I don't know another way to put that. But she really was when I met her a person who's like, I'm gonna grow up, I'm gonna go to college, I'm gonna go to New York, I'm gonna work, I'm gonna have a white sofa, like you don't I mean, like, I'm gonna live by myself. And even when we were married in the first few years, I mean, that's pretty much how she was. And right now, she's downstairs. And if you said anything bad to my children, or about my children, she'd get a bat and beat you to death with it. So I don't know why that what happened to her. But it happened. It felt pretty instant. It really did. Yeah, it felt instant.

And I think that's is that maternal paternal instinct? Taking over? Is that related to hormones? Maybe? I don't know, I can't speak to that, specifically. But I think it is just Well, I think we're just talking about caregiving in general, just this natural, protective, instinctive response that we have when we have children. And regardless of however, we have them, you know, whether it's biological adoptive, all the different ways that one can become a caregiver.

So you see you become, I mean, obviously, listen, we're not saying anything, it's hard to understand, but babies are helpless. And they're yours, you feel a connection to them, hopefully right away, or at some point, I mean, I'm sure there are some people who never connect with their kids, I've seen it happen, it's sad. But generally speaking, for the most part, you have this, this feeling of I have to protect this thing. I have to make sure it's happy. I have to make sure it's safe I have to make sure it grows up well and has opportunities and you have all these like crazy feelings. And you could be in another situation by the way you could be in a in a depressed situation financially where your your focus is more about I have to get this kid food I have to find a way to give them clothes and shoes or whatever it ends up being. Is that is it when you perceive a failure that the guilt hits?

You? Well? Yes, I would say when you perceive a failure, and I think it's important to differentiate between guilt and shame here because guilt is I and Brene Brown, who I'm sure I'll mentioned more than once on this podcast, she has read a lot of books and TED talks around this topic around the difference between guilt and shame and guilt is more of a response to the behavior like I I did I did something bad in terms of you know over talking about you know, care mom dad mom guilt I did something bad I didn't do this well, I didn't spend enough time with my child i i didn't wasn't able to give them enough food I wasn't able to sign them up for all the activities I wanted to because of finances that that is a response feeling badly or wishing things were different in response to behavior. That is the guilt feeling which often can be like productive in some cases because then if you're aware you can make changes shame is when you're when you let's say you feel you are feeling you are experiencing guilt because quote, you did something bad shame is then I am bad. I am not a good enough mom. I'm not a good enough parent. I'm never I'm a terrible person. And so that I think it's just important to kind of differentiate those two things. Before we move forward. Yeah,

can something an outside force? Take shame and make it into guilt for you or guilt make it into shame for you. I'm trying to I'm trying to find a I wish I was smarter in this moment. I record but I'm trying to find

I think well I think the easiest one would be social media or influence or even a family member, let's say your I mean that the easiest kind of example that comes to mind because I am a working mother is, you know, you don't, you don't spend enough time with your children and you're feeling guilty about that, because you're trying to find the, you know, the, quote, work life balance, which is kind of a funny thing in and of itself. But, and then and then maybe you post something about that guilt on social media, trying to either be comforted, or maybe to feel less lonely, because it can be a very isolated and very common experience, I also think we need to normalize it. Most parents can feel guilt from time to time, and that's normal. And you're not alone in that. But let's say you're feeling that guilt, and you're either talking about it with a family member, or you're posting something about on social media. And then you get either attacked or shamed like you should be staying home or why aren't you? Well, you know, why are you working so much? Or, really, you should, you should cut down on those hours. So you can be at your child's soccer games, those types of comments can definitely help you lead the shame, if you're looking for that and susceptible to that type of feedback.

So you're somebody could guilt, somebody could shame you about something you feel guilt about? Yes, yes. And then you you could then transition or I guess, duplicate, you could probably split off and feel both things all of a sudden, like you already felt guilty. Now you're ashamed of it.

Absolutely. And then you're in a kind of this shame spiral. And the I think we can get to, you know, how to help us help yourself in that moment. But I think having that initial awareness of oh, I'm feeling guilty, this is a normal feeling as a parent, and, and then either reflecting back, okay, maybe I could find some ways to be, you know, at home or more present when I am home. And maybe it's putting your phone down by the front door, whatever it may be. But then when that you lead into shame, were like, Oh, my gosh, I'm such a bad parent. Because I was talking about this with my aunt and she made these comments. And I'm never going to be the parent that she was those those it's all kind of in that your narrative, your self talk right as to how far and how deep you can go into that shame. But it can be influenced and exaggerated by outside forces, as you say,

Why Why? Why not? It's a big question. I'm about to have no answer. But might you say it a different way. In your example, you go online, you make this statement, hey, this happened. I wish I could have done better. There are a number of people who will come in and support you. Right? People say it's okay, cut yourself a break. You know what I hear people say all the time, give yourself some grace, things like that. But then there's anger, people are either supportive or angry, or the angry people just protecting themselves from feeling guilty about something that they're keeping under the surface. Like, why would you lash out at a person for saying, I need help? I don't understand that.

I? Well, yeah, without knowing their their own individual psyche and experience and trauma, oftentimes, kind of the, quote, bullying behavior online could be stemming from one person's own shame. And they are trying to alleviate some of that, or kind of discharge some of that odds, so to speak on to the other person. So I get to shame you, because that's the only way I know how to make myself feel better.

Yeah, sometimes I see it as them protecting their own psyche, the attacker, and sometimes I see it as they believe it works for them. And they're trying to tell you, hey, look, just push through, push it down. Don't think about it, you'll be okay. I also want to say on a side note, if you ever write an article about your time with me, I think you should title it without knowing. Because it's the it's the phrase you use most when I asked you open ended questions that have no real answer. You go without knowing the details.

Because I never want to assume

that's why I like you. Every time I hear you say that. I think Eric is the right person for for bed. So

funny. I am glad you pointed that out. Now I have to be extra aware of how often I use that. Oh,

no, you should keep saying it. You keep saying it's how I know I've reached the line. I hear without knowing as well. Gee, Scott, why don't you ask another question that has 73 answers and just generalize the hell out of this whole thing. But, but I'm just going by what I see most I mean, I run a really huge Facebook group. And I hate to say it, but at this point, I read people's posts. And I think oh, this is that one, they actually fit into categories. I could probably make a chart of a bell 20 things that people post online about and drop most people's posts into those categories. And it happens. An example would be if someone comes on line to ask a question about getting some sort of an accessibility pass for a theme park, I can in my sleep with my eyes closed, tell you exactly how that thread is going to go. I know exactly who will. I know that some people will give you good factual information about it. Some people will come in to support you. And they seem like they're just, this is a great moment for them to feel like, Oh, I got one of those passes one time, I'm glad I'm not like I'm not a loser. You know what I mean? Like, other people need this too. There are hangry people that come in to say that you're not disabled. I'm not disabled. I have type one. I mean, I swear to you, it plays like a, it plays like a song that I've heard 1000 times. But always different people.

Yes. Well, you know, it's so interesting, because I, in anticipation of our chat today, I went on to your Facebook page and searched for posts that had the word guilt in it. And happily, I actually only I mean, I only did spend a few minutes looking at this, but there were so many wonderful encouraging comments, which decreases the isolation of the posters experience of guilt, encouraging, sharing their moments of you know, that Me too, I felt this way. I did not come across any, you know, shaming posts, but I imagined that they, they might be out there. So they know you're really good about regulating that. And your page

was really funny, Eric, is that I put no effort into regulating my page. Oh, okay. So where it comes from is that if it should happen, I don't just block somebody, I don't kick them out. I talk to them right there in front of everyone. And I say and then you teach the group that here the expectation is, you're going to be helpful to people. Yes. And if you're going to be sharp tongued, it better be helpful. It better be purposeful. And it better not be in anger, or just because you're out there trolling the internet, trying to get into a fight with somebody. And you get this sort of, I don't know I say this about diabetes, but I'm starting to get what I expect in my Facebook group. Because there's a core somewhere of initial listeners who wanted a Facebook group, people who said, hey, I want a private place to go to talk about what we hear on the podcast. And there were enough people there that it built a community in the in the, in the likeness of the vibe of the podcast. It's very, it's really wonderful. I can't take credit for it. It just happen. But yeah, I don't. I don't know. I don't mess around like I don't. I don't know, I don't feel weird about stuff like that. I mean, this stuff in general. There's something that happened in our life around diabetes recently that is so fresh. I'm not actually going to share it on the podcast yet. But it was an it was a situation where I could have felt guilty. And something happened. I was the gatekeeper of a good or bad decision. I made a bad decision. We've probably good reasons. I'll explain it one day on the podcast. I did it just I did the wrong thing. And it led to a problem. And everything that happened after that was my fault. It just was. But I was able to step back after the initial thing happened and say to myself, I didn't get my kid diabetes. I'm not the one that made insulin work like this. I'm not the one that you know, like I none of this is me. I'm in a bad situation, doing the best I can. I'm not a perfect person. I wasn't perfect today. I did rebound quickly, and pull it back together. But I never let myself feel guilty about it. And I was not ashamed of what I did. And I don't know why I can do that. And other people get run over by these things.

Well, probably just as we've talked about in other episodes, you're kind of how you're wired and your self talk and your resilience. I did notice like you as you mentioned, you know you did not give you did not create diabetes you know in in Arden and there was nothing that you could or could not do to prevent her from getting it and I did notice was as I searched for, you know guilt in the in the Facebook group, that there. That was obviously the initial guilt that that a caregiver might experience is this What did I do? What did I not do? How did my child get this type of guilt? And I think then you go through a type of a period of time where you learn and you have more education around diabetes psychoeducation around kind of what what can you manage what can you not manage. And then I think where you are going also is this idea of, you know, perfection, this expectation of perfection that we are human and we are going to make mistakes, you know, we're talking about in general care, mom guilt, but then with this diabetes aspect, you know, you cannot expect perfection because then that leads to the guilt and all you know, all of the feelings around shame, and then you can also you don't want to pass that on either to your child because you're trying to model that so you have that pressure as well.

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They're all right there and make it nice and easy for you to support the podcast and to help yourself by getting great technology supplies and services that will make your life with type one diabetes or type two diabetes just a little bit easier. We're gonna get back to Eric and now just remember when you support the sponsors, you're supporting the show and that I really appreciate it. Thank you so much. Links at juicebox podcast.com links in the show notes of your podcast player or go to G voc glucagon.com forward slash juice box us med.com forward slash juice box and contour next one.com forward slash juice box You know, I just saw somebody the other day had a an illness, probably lifelong that they were unaware of. And now it's caused a real problem for them. And what struck me about it was that for decades, they didn't know this thing was happening. So they couldn't feel guilty about it while it was happening, they couldn't feel pressure about it. But with diabetes, you immediately are made aware that less than perfect blood sugars are going to lead at some point to some sort of a deficit somewhere, like you're not, you don't I mean, like diabetes is one of those things that most of us are not getting out of unscathed. Somehow. And on top of that, you might be one of the lucky ones who have multiple autoimmune issues. You know, and I think when people are first diagnosed, there's this feeling that if I just do this perfectly, yes, it's going to be a pain, and we're gonna have to do insulin, and we're gonna have to be careful and etc. But the outcome for my kid or for me, is going to be exactly the same as if I never had diabetes. And I just don't think that that's a realistic goal. I think you can, I think you can and will mitigate things. And I think that it's very possible for especially with today's technology for people to live, pretty free of complications, but it's going to happen to somebody. And it's not your fault. Do you really mean like, not everybody's prepared to do this thing the same way. But everybody gets the guilt, it doesn't matter how well they're doing. I swear to you, Erica, most of the emails I get are from people with six A onesies who are killing themselves. It's not a five, four. It's never from somebody who has a nine that wants a six.

Right, right. Right. So and So what Yeah, then what is their expectation, the amount of pressure they're putting on themselves? Is that realistic? are they experiencing lack of sleep stress? How are their you know, how are their general? What's the general functioning? And maybe they can do all that, and they're succeeding in life. But that just feels like a lot of hard work? And

is it really? I mean, isn't it obvious that when you put so much effort into one thing, there's not enough time or bandwidth to put that effort into other places?

Yes, yeah. Yes. I mean, I think what and I think they're also just to be mindful of, you know, the seasons of living with type one. They're there, I think, the way you respond and feel like you need to do all the things that you should and could be doing to control it as as the caregiver for your child. It I think it ebbs and flows. And so I think just being mindful of that to the post diagnosis, you know, trauma, and then there's the transitions and your child going through puberty and then off to high school off to college. I think there are different seasons to where maybe as a caregiver, you experience higher levels of guilt and pressure, as each new kind of a new chapter unfolds with the with the care.

So how do how do you? Is there a way to give the guilt away? Can you get rid of it? Or some people just? Well, you know what, I'm going to ask a different question. And then I'll ask about getting rid of the guilt. Do some people late lean into it? Is that like a martyr complex? Are those things not connected?

i That's a good question. I feel like if you're leaning into the guilt, I think there's there's a healthy level right to responding to that guilt. Because if you are doing something, quote, bad or wrong, or you're making a mistake, and you're feeling that, that gut feeling of guilt, I think it's a healthy response to be aware of that and check it and say, Okay, well, maybe we could have corrected this way, this time. And I'm going to do that and then I'm going to move forward and not kind of sit and swim in that guilt. Because then then you're then you're flirting with all the shame. I think if you're if you're leaning into it over and over, I would I would be curious as to what what are you getting out of that type of behavior? What's the function? Are you getting? Are you getting the love that you're feeling like you want or attention from family members? Are you posting frequently about your guilt on social media? And you're needing that connection? I think that's all really normal now and again, but I think just having that awareness piece of why are you leaning into that? What are you getting out of that and how and Is that healthy?

Could it Be could it be learned or generational? What do I mean? I'll use myself. Yes, you can, right? Because like, like, for instance, uh, you know, I grew up in a blue collar household expectations where you'd have a blue collar job. I never once thought I wouldn't. I never once thought I wouldn't. I ended up working in a sheetmetal shop, I did a laborer shop like my father did. My mom was a cashier, you know what I mean? In a place, she didn't have a very high level position. I was doing what I was expected to do. And not that there's anything wrong with other shops. And I really don't mean that, but I didn't fit there. But yet, that's right where I went, I got what I expected. And it wasn't until it wasn't until the I mean, maybe it was guilt. Maybe I felt badly for doing something I knew I shouldn't be doing, I don't know. But I realized one day I was like, I have to go, I think there's more for me, or something different, even not even more like I just don't think I fit here. And I'm gonna go find out where I fit. And I was able to get to that. But there are plenty of other people who get put into situations over and over again, generationally, you see generational wealth, discrepancies, health discrepancies, right? People just get caught in a loop. And if you grew up with a mom who guilted you and she grew up with a mom that guilted you, is there any way that you're not going to guilt yourself when something like this happens?

But yes, there is a way I think the pattern is certainly can be learned and you're it's being modeled for you. And that's how you see if you're seeing your parent respond to that kind of psychological discomfort. And she's, and you know, he or she is verbalizing out loud how, how bad she is, and she's never going to do be good enough. You were that is probably, you might replicate that type of behavior when you feel like you've done something wrong. And of course, that can be corrected by pride that I no go back to the first step is just having that awareness like oh my gosh, this is this is what I do when I feel like I do something wrong. I feel badly. And then I shamed myself. And I want to stop that. And so the self awareness piece is huge. And being open to that if people are reflecting that to you. Yeah,

you know, your point about the modeling things, I have two younger brothers, one is five years younger than me, one is 10 years younger than me, the one who's five years younger, has a job that's more blue collar and labor like, and that's the kind of job I had when he went out into the world as an adult. And I was basically a father figure. By the time my youngest brother went out into the world, I had a more white collar job, and he has a more white collar job. And I wonder, excuse me, I bang to the microphone, which is not something I normally do. I, I sometimes wonder if it wasn't that idea, like, oh, I there's here are the other options that exist, I'll go follow one of those. Sometimes just knowing that it's possible, which is why I like doing an episode like this, I like people being able to hear that, it's actually possible for you not to feel this way. And for you not to, you know, keep the cycle going. You know, it's a kind of like a trite thing to say at this point. And it's been overused and overused, but you can be the one who stops it. And I think if you're the parent of someone with type one, or you know, somebody with another issue, there could possibly be no more important time to stop it. Because you were just guilted and your pancreas worked. You know what I mean? Like your kid, if you pass this on to your kid, there gonna be other issues, and they're going to be they're going to be a lot more serious than just how you feel in your head, I think.

And yes, and I think, you know, as a caregiver of a child with type one, I think, to expect that it will happen, you will make mistakes, and you will probably feel guilty about it. And that's okay, too, that it's not this abnormal, wrong response. And so when you are experiencing that to say, oh, okay, this is normal, I'm not alone. And I'm going to I'm going to learn and I'm going to kind of course correct or gather more data, to figure out how to do whatever it is do do it differently next time. And then and then the thoughts and there. And I think being aware also if you're susceptible to the outside influences, maybe it's not appropriate to go post about that. Or to unless unless you feel like you're it's a safer, smaller Are you are you were, you know that it's going to be a safer response. I think just being aware of who are you going to go tell and talk to about that feeling of guilt Being aware of that. Yeah, if you're susceptible to the influences, yeah.

Okay, I want to before we move on, I just want to be clear that the episode is going to be called mom guilt, because I think it's what people think of. But I don't believe it's gender specific. I think dads feel just as guilty that if you grew up with your grandmother, and she was your custodian, she feels just as guilty. You know, he she, I don't think you should I don't think it matters, honestly.

Yeah. And I yeah, I think as we mentioned, the beginning, it doesn't matter. We all as human beings experience it, I probably use she because I'm a she, I go.

So no, I refer to that yet. I just want to make because I, you know, I'm thinking about it, as we're getting ready to move into kind of the second half of the recording. And I'm, and I'm just thinking, I want to I want to be really clear, I think there I have, you know, there are things that I feel guilty about. I process it differently, though. And I get, I don't know, if I, if I'm, if I'm actually giving it away, and just getting rid of it out into the ether. Or if I hide it differently, or if it comes out differently, like I have no idea. I think the most fascinating thing about us is we really don't know why we're doing what we're doing. Like everybody feels like. And I think that's why it's weird to talk about fixing these things or making them better. Because all these things happen. So kind of invisibly, and then suddenly, something in your life triggers you into thinking, wow, I have to not do this. And then now all of a sudden, you're trying to consciously stop a thing that kind of subconsciously happened. And those seem like two worlds that don't overlap for some reason to me.

Right. And yeah, it is such an internal process that happens so quickly. I think before you know, it you could be in it is living and breathing shame, which could then it can affect your overall mental health. If left unchecked, it can, you know, prevent you from connecting with your children or other family members or friends. And so I think that's I appreciate you know that we're focusing on this too, because it is it's just so common and so normal.

I think I think too, you can see people sometimes in in an attempt to get rid of their guilt or shame, they just go the opposite way too far to like apathy. And they just decide they don't care about anything. And the way that I won't feel badly about is if I don't care about it. Yes. And that's just probably more dangerous, because you've said a number of times guilts actually kind of valuable. It really is. I don't even know if listen. They're I don't even know if there's not a function for shame, sometimes. You know what I'm saying? Like they're like, I mean, if you're deep enough in a hole, I don't know how you get out of it. Like, do you sometimes need someone to look at you and go, Hey, you know, pull it together? Like, you know, like, I don't know, I have no idea. Maybe it works. For some people. It doesn't work for other people. You know, you hear people say that they feel shamed about their bodies, but then other people will tell you, I was in poor health until a friend of mine came along and pushed me in a way that I don't think society would have been comfortable with. But here I am. And I'm better. So I don't I don't know what the hell the answer is. I have no idea. I just think that if you're hearing this, and you felt this guilt, especially around diabetes, it's just very important to, I would think to say out loud or write down on a piece of paper or share with a friend, that this is not my fault. I didn't do this. I didn't make diabetes. It's not my fault. My kid has it. Just because I have I don't know, a thyroid problem doesn't mean I gave it to my kids. That's genetics. You know what I mean? Like, never once I've never once heard somebody say, Oh, it's my fault. They have blonde hair. Yeah. But your kid gets diabetes. And all of a sudden, oh, my mom, my grandmother has celiac. This is my fault. You know, that's just silly. So, it but it's how people feel?

Well, yeah, because I think going back to our, you know, your instinctive, protective feelings. We as a parent, you feel like you, you should do all the things that you can do to protect your child from experiencing pain. And with chronic illness, diagnosis, you, you feel like what did I not do to protect them? How did I prove how can I prevent this and then, and then maybe you realize, you go through the process of acceptance, like okay, I've, I accept that I was not able to, I didn't control this diagnosis. And then maybe if you're kind of if you lean towards those thoughts and feelings, okay, well, now I need to do everything I can to prevent them from having any complications. And you're driven by that fear, which then drives all of your actions and responses. So

um, So if you have a kid, and the kid can't hit a baseball, you don't feel guilty that they can't, the kid can't hit a baseball, you take them out via tea, you try and teach them how to swing, it all feels like it's accomplishable. Maybe with diabetes, the guilt comes because you know, at the end of this path, you you're not going to find a magic wand, it gets rid of diabetes, I wonder, I wonder if guilt doesn't push the philanthropy around diabetes, even like that feeling of like, I can't cure this, let me try to help the bigger picture. Because that's, it's really interesting. Everything that comes up in your life, if you're reasonably healthy, you I think you will believe you can overcome it, or that there may be a path out of it. And that, you know, not giving up might be the answer. But yeah, but there's nothing about a disease that gives you that feeling.

Well, and I think the interesting, like, does guilt drive the philanthropy I'm gonna do all that I can to protect my child, I would say yes, and with that is the fear, right, like the fear of wanting to protect your child even further from further pain. And I think what you were saying earlier, you know, the odds are good that your child is going to be okay, if you're doing all the things as best to your ability, you know. And the fear can be driving those, the guilt as well, a lot along with, you know, this, I'm gonna do, I'm gonna do the all I can, as best I can. And then also, to prevent the guilt, I'm going to practice some self compassion. And be kind to myself, when I when I, we, you know, we were too we over bolused or corrected too strongly. And we're going to learn from that.

I wonder if there are times when I wonder if my ability to let it go? If that's not actually I don't know what the word would be, like some sort of a defense mechanism, or if it's not, like an overabundance of self confidence that maybe I don't even deserve, you know, or whatever. Like, like that idea of like, I couldn't have done anything about this. It's not my fault. And that and that, you know, because you can look at that a different way, like I do, listen, I do believe that I examined that situation, a number of them before and I said, Okay, this is what happened, happened here, here, here. Here's my mistake, you know, okay, then this happened. And then here's where I pulled my back together again, and I got back on course, and then it's how we fix this. So as much as I might have been, and the fault, I'm using quotes around fault. It's just that there were too many variables. And, and I was distracted, on top of them, right. And so I just didn't, there were just I got, I'll be able to talk about it at some point. But there was, there were too many things going on, it got beyond my ability. And I did not know that was happening. And as soon as it became a dire focused situation again, and I was able to shut out surrounding, you know, variables, I was back to the person I needed to be in that situation, and bla bla bomb, we're good. So but isn't that life, though? Yes, you know, you know, things are happening constantly. And how do you give your full attention to something? And? And isn't it easy for? I don't know, like, I mean, there's, there's such a randomness?

Well, I think also, like, perhaps you get comfortable in, in the management. And well, I'm, I'm not a caregiver to a child with type one, I am a parent. And I think just aside from the caregiver guilt, with diabetes, mere making maybe making decisions, and you're kind of going through the motions of the evening, and then oops, you let your child do something that you didn't, wouldn't normally have them do. And then you feel like, Oh, I really shouldn't have done that. Or I should have said that. And then you kind of check yourself and say, Okay, I was not focused or as you said, there are all these other kind of variables and you retired, maybe you're planning something, and I get like the caregiver fear or the guilt around while we I Bolus too much and now my child is low. And I'm fearful that or they can have a seizure in a result of something that I did, I gave them X amount of units. I mean, that is that is real fear. And I get that it can be real guilt. And just in those moments to just try, you know, as as you're being aware of like, Oh, yes, I do feel that, that guilt. And I've seen y'all post about it too. And then and then the next step is, gosh, I made a mistake. And that was really scary, my child's Okay, thankfully. And I'm going to move forward and I'm going to be kind to myself into that I get to practice, I get to model that for my child to to say, Wow, we made it, you know, we over bolused. And then we made a mistake. And that was scary. Like we're okay,

I hate to say life is like the the spinning plates trick and anesthesia, like you put a stick up, you get a plate spinning on it. And then they run over and they grab another stick and they stand up and they get another plate spinning and they get as many spinning plates as they can. And they basically are running back and forth from plate to plate keeping them spinning so they don't fall off. I almost think of that as like autopilot. Sometimes you were talking about like, even with regular parenting, like sometimes just the something's going well. And so you take your attention away from it. But you know, one day, right, like the plate, you're not going to make it back to that plate. And then it's going to crash down, you're gonna have to start over again, we used to have this joke we told about my youngest brother used to say Rob is either in trouble or getting in trouble and you haven't found out about it yet. Yeah, two states of trouble. It was happening currently, or, or he was putting it into motion. And that's just sort of, you've got all those plates spinning. And while you're spinning the one, it's hard not to stand there and think the third plate from the right needs attention. And the end, and I can't do all of this. And I do think that being being a good parent is going to constantly put you in that feeling. Right? And so the real truth is, I think you have to be able to stand there and reconcile with yourself. One of these plates is going to fall. My job isn't to keep them all spinning. My job is to keep as many of them as possible from falling. And maybe we'll get lucky and the ones that crashed down aren't the real expensive ones. And yeah, right. But but there's no I don't know, I think that there's comfort in knowing that there's no perfection. Yes, that's all I mean, that yes, comforted by.

Yeah, there's Yeah, you cannot expect perfection in yourself as a parent as a person living with type one that obviously then leads to all that, you know, the distress and the shame. And I think just it happens even, you know, myself with type one, I'll be trying to juggle multiple things, and I'll mindlessly Bolus and realize, Oh, my goodness, or I Bolus twice sometimes, because I have forgotten and there's so many things going on to say Oh, well, now I get I'm gonna correct for that. And I'm not going to do I'm going to be more mindful next time. You know, it happens,

you know, people do that thing where they, you know, they're MDI, at the end of the night, it's time for them to give themselves 1015 20 units of, of Basal insulin and they just grabbed their fast acting insulin instead and put it in, I see a post about that monthly.

You know, I will I hopefully he's okay. My brother, who also has type one, he he was at home with his children, while his his wife was away for the weekend. And he was, you know, he's a he's a very hands on dad, but I think this contributed he was managing all the bedtime routine. He gave himself his he wears a Dexcom but does MDI. And he gave himself as, you know, whatever, 10 units of Lantus and then did it again an hour later that forgot 10 Because he just you know, juggling and then he was you know, poor thing was up eating all night long. But it happened it happens and, and then you get to you probably feel badly and you see, but I made a mistake, and I'm gonna I'm gonna practice being more a little bit more mindful next time and that's okay.

I think my point about all this is, is just that. Most days it's gonna be Oh, hold on none of this is gonna matter if I die while making the pot.

You're gonna make it Oh, am I gonna

make I ran out a hot home I was I drank. I think my point is that whether it's life or diabetes, or anything in between, it's all not going to go right. And you doing emotional damage to yourself when you don't need to. Because something that was never going to be perfect anyway isn't perfect. You really are doing yourself and your family and the people around you a disservice. Now you might not be doing it on purpose, but you can you can recognize it on purpose, and try to help yourself on purpose. I'm not saying you're ever going to get rid of it completely. But big stuff, right? Like chopping it. It's almost like diabetes, like chopping out the lows and the highs, and trying to find less variability, whether it's in your mental health, your day to day life, or type one diabetes, that's really what's most important. You're not trying to live with a blood sugar of 85 Forever, your blood sugar may get low, it may get high, the key is to recognize it before it gets out of whack, and bring it back again. So if you've listened to the podcast, that's how I talk about diabetes. And if you're really paying attention to the podcast, you know that I talked about diabetes, the way I think about being alive. And so, I mean, I'm not the end all be all on anything, but I think you just shave off the highs, shave off the lows, try to stay in the middle as much as you can. And that's well done. You know,

yes, and no, and then, you know, learning how to course correct, I think, you know, when you think about it in the mental health perspective, the the term means being mentally having mental health fitness, that doesn't mean that you're going to be happy all the time. It means or having a straight line all the time. It means it means okay, you recognize when you're feeling low, or when that you know, the feelings are kind of becoming consuming. And then knowing how to course correct does it mean, going out, talking to a friend exercising, reaching out for help from a mental health professional practice doing some yoga and mindfulness accepting those challenging thoughts? It's, you know, understanding how to get back to, as you say, you know, in the middle of less highs, less lows, I think the same thing can be applied to being you know, having that mental health fitness, and it takes practice.

Yeah, really does it? I really, I shudder to think that I was gonna say it's about the journey, not the destination, but but it really is it? I mean, and it my kid asked me the other day, like, what's the key to life? Like, what's the most important things in life? And I answered differently than I would have answered 10 years ago, and maybe differently than I would have answered 20 years before that. And I just said, it's health. It's, it's achieving the best level of health that you can. I was like, everything else is secondary. People who are healthy and don't have, well, we're all dying, right? But people who don't, people who don't have day to day knowledge of the deterioration of their body, those people have, I mean, I pay for that. You know what I mean? Like, I'm not even saying that they're just, they're super healthy, and I'm not, or my daughter's not, or etc, I'm just saying that they are not aware of their mortality constantly. And I, that's a gift, I would love to give somebody, you know, like, because it's all going to end reasonably the same for everybody. But knowing it's happening as it's happening, sucks. And then that makes every decision, every mistake, just feel so much bigger. Because you know, you know the outcome suddenly, right, like you have you have, you have cause and effect that's been laid out in front of you by a doctor, by your experiences. And if I do this, if I don't use enough insulin, my blood sugar is gonna get high and my body is gonna deteriorate quickly. If I use too much insulin, my blood sugar, just gonna get low, I might have a seizure, I might die. You know, when a person has a beer at a bar, they don't think about their liver. You don't even think like right when you smoke a cigarette at a club, but you're not really a smoker, you don't think oh, I probably just lost three minutes of my life. You know, it's you don't have to have those thoughts and therefore you don't get the guilt from it. I don't know I could be you know, Erica, these conversations are basically about me being wrong. And you taught me

I'm still just impressed that one of your children asked, you know, what's what's the key to life?

Well, I think he thought it was money, by the way. But he just fresh from college a couple days graduation, and he's sitting around trying to figure out what to do next. Yes, you know, and he's like, Well, what's the most important thing what's the thing I should be focused on? And he said, like, it's money and I was like, That's not that's health. It's health and security and the access to clean good food. Like like it's that's what it's about. It's about love and, and connections. And you know, caring about somebody more than you care about yourself. Like I think that's what's that's what I think life's about.

Yes. And and being kind to yourself in the process as you navigate all of that. Yeah,

right. Right. Not doing the martyr thing, which which came up earlier, and we never really talked about it but happens constantly. I sit listen, I hate to say I see people online constantly doing that. It just like everything's going wrong, but I'm trying so hard. This would all fall apart without me. Like that whole thing you guys. Like that's, I don't know, I'm sure That's a completely different topic. But it's common. I see it done commonly.

Yeah, well, I think yeah, that is kind of going into is that a component, a part of, you know, the diabetes distress feeling powerless in the process of the management, whether you're the caregiver or the person with type one is that? Are you? Are you getting a lot of attention? As a result of that? And is that meeting an unmet need that you're getting elsewhere? I think there are probably many different ways is, you know, is it learned is that you're not aware, there's no self awareness of how often you're feeling that guilt and posting or talking about, it

looks like a coping mechanism. To me, it looks like somebody saying, I can't affect the outcome. And knowing that is making me crazy. So I'm going to pretend that we're doing everything right. So it's almost like it's like, one of those people that they played music on the deck of the Titanic while it was sinking. Like that's, that's what it feels like, to me. It's like, Alright, look, this boat is going to sink. I don't want to think about it to my assets, the water. So I'm going to project this confidence. And I find it I'm going to be honest with you, I see people do it in the in the in the space. I don't think it's I think it's not just not valuable, I think it's detrimental? You know, I would for me, I'd rather I'd rather face something head on, do my best to defeat it. If it kills me kills me. But I'm not going to shut my eyes and hope it doesn't get me you know what I mean?

Yeah, so it is, as you say, is it a coping mechanism in terms of trying to avoid? Is it avoiding kind of the fear? Or is it avoiding the truth of whatever other emotion and so it just feels easy? Or over time to kind of put your hands in the air, defeatist, powerless? Those are all, you know, that cannot be associated with just having type one or diabetes. Two. So I think it's tricky to, to specifically categorize it, but it probably all those things.

Oh, I think in some way or another, we've mentioned pretty much every reaction to diabetes that I've seen other people have, yes, yeah, it's either the I can do it. Or let's pretend it's gonna be okay. Or this is a show and I give up and let's like, was, like the whole thing on fire and see how long I'll tell you what, you know, going back 20 years, and you know, this, you've had diabetes for three decades or more? Yes, before all this technology, and the good insulin and the glucose monitors. This was basically live fast, die young, leave a good looking corpse, like a lot of people took that perspective with diabetes.

Yeah, it was, you know, two or three injections a day, if that prick your fingers three to four times and hope for the best. So that was 32 will be 32 years this summer.

But but there are people who listen, I've interviewed a number of them, they were just like, I knew this wasn't going to be I was going to be dead. That's what I thought. So I live like that. And there were no real tools to do anything with them, they somehow lived long enough for the tools to get better. And then it slowed their progression down. And now they live with a lot of complications. I think that this right here, in this time period might be the last generation of type ones who started in a different management time and ended in a more advanced one. Like I think, yes, you know what I mean, going forward, everyone's going to start hopefully, you know, I don't want to curse but insurance and, you know, having access aside, people who have access should not experience those outcomes with as much frequency.

Yes, and I recently just saw some stats on that I'm not going to repeat them, because I don't want to say it incorrectly, but the percentage of complications from people who were diagnosed, I think it was 30 to 40 years ago, versus like, in the last 10 years, the percentage has, it has decreased. So significantly, it was very encouraging to see and so maybe I'll find a stat so next time, I can report that because it was it was pretty amazing. And I think as a lot of people do say, Well, you never want to be diagnosed with diabetes. You know, now is a good time this, you know, age and era of, of technology and community. Really, those are two significant factors

for physical and mental health. Yeah, exactly. I can't I can't tell you how much I believe in it and the community side of it, and it's the truth be told like it's It's not something that I even thought about in the beginning.

Like I just did the community aspect of this

assay for people with it. Yes, even even you've heard me say before, like, I thought of the podcast is like a management podcast. And a great many people that listen to it. Think of it as a community.

Oh, yeah, I mean that the Facebook page is definitely evidence of that. Yeah. I want to say pretty incredible.

Well, yeah, I agree. I think it is, it's, it's the right place I, you know, bright thing at the right time really worked out. So listen, if I was gonna be like a coach at the end, and y'all rah, rah, rah, and like, go get on boys and everything like that. What I will tell you is whether you're being shamed by somebody, or you're feeling guilt, it's taking up your time, it's taking up your compute cycles, it's probably making you feel terrible. Turn it into action. Like don't waste that time on something that's got no end if you can help it. And if you can't help it, go find somebody that can help you. Like you might need mental health tools. Maybe you don't have that, like maybe you get from the podcast, you know, bolusing tools, and that, but what we were just talking about, about the possibility of being healthy for a lifetime with diabetes, like focus on that, like, if you want to make yourself crazy about something, make yourself crazy about that. Not about what was me this this all over? Here we go like you don't you mean? Like, it's just, this isn't what I wanted. It's not what I expected. Like, you got to get past that part. Like something else was gonna happen. Like, life's never what you expect? I mean, okay, is your life the way you expect it was gonna be?

No, it's not I know, you, I know you've said before, to like, you don't have a child expect. expecting that they're going to be diagnosed with something or have a major challenge, you know, you give birth to a child and hope that everything will be perfect,

giving birth to the centerfielder for the Yankees, like, right, like it's gonna dance on, you know, everybody's gonna be brilliant. And every you know, so it didn't work out quite like that. No reason to give up, you're still here. You're still here. This is your shot. You don't even like, let's say, I don't know, I swear there's

a season for any for all of it. And to kind of understand that, that's, there are seasons and I hear you say, like, try and push through that and move forward and get the help that you need. That whatever, you're feeling stuck when you're feeling stuck in that whatever it

is, because that that stuck feeling that like, I mean, it's just, it's, it's the devil, right? Like, I mean, you get into this place where you're just like, it's comfortable. You see it with eating, sometimes, like, people start off, you know, get into a poor eating cycle. And then they just, they lean into it, it's comfortable, right? The carbs get a hold of you're like, Oh, sugar, fat, I love this. Like, and you just, you're like, Oh, I'm gaining weight, I don't feel as well, whatever, you can't eat it say, you almost can't even make yourself care. It's It's It's, It's intoxicating.

Yeah, shame, shame, as it can be really cruel and nasty like that. Yeah. So is there when you're attuned to it.

So if someone comes to you and and exhibits these, either shame or guilt around diabetes, where do you lead them first, like give them an idea of what would happen if they reached out to a mental health professional?

I will, I first would applaud them and commend them for reaching out because it's often the hardest thing to do. Because you've, you've recognized that you need help, and it can be scary to take that first step. So we would, I would, you know, commend them on that taking that first bold step. And then we would spend time practicing that self awareness around how frequently are you feeling those those thoughts of real have probably shame at that point? What are the triggers? Are there are they is it around a specific issue? Is it global shame, you're not a good enough parent, you're not a good enough coworker, not a good enough spouse, you know, sometimes it is can be specific. In all of the roles that you play in life, it could also be global. So we'd spend some time kind of recognizing that. And then maybe moving into some mindful ness of accepting that there will be moments kind of all the things that we've talked about. There will be moments where I feel guilty and not placing judgment around that acknowledging it, accepting some of those thoughts and feelings, and then moving into more healing and kind of corrective work around the changing your thoughts and getting the support that you need. I think because shame does lead to isolation and it likes to keep you there. And so by stepping out getting help with a mental health professional stepping out into being more open about it with your family and friends, and and just feeling less isolated. And that is one of the best tools as well, that you're not alone in the in that space,

I would think that it's probably important to recognize that, you know, guilt and shame are not, they're not things that they're not things that you get when something goes wrong, everybody has them. You don't even like to sit here and think, Oh, I do feel very guilty, or you know about my kid getting diabetes, or I am ashamed of how I manage their blood sugar, that kind of thing. If you think you feel that and other people don't. That's not the case. I would think that. I mean, I'm guessing here, but I don't think you could find one in 1000 people who don't feel guilt or shame. And so it's not about trying to avoid it. It's about living with it. Like you even said before, like you can use the guilt, the guilt can be a motivator. And how much of it is even shame. Like how much of it is the way you take it in? Versus how it comes at you. Is that is that controllable?

And the way you how much candy the way you take it in versus how what was the second part?

Like? The way you take it in versus how you? I don't know, like how you respond to it. I guess like, like, if somebody's trying to make me feel ashamed about something. They couldn't do that. I wouldn't allow it.

Right. Because you're you're you have the built in self talk. Right? And whether by nature and nurture you you do. Yeah. And if

I if I if I if I should feel ashamed about something? I'm already aware of it.

You've already led yourself there, don't worry.

And so yeah, Scott's got it all covered. I know what I've done wrong. Okay. So it's like, you can't you can't do that to me. I've already and I think that's a preemptive way of handling your mental health, which is you can't ignore things. You just sort of have to look at them, assess them, be honest with yourself and say, All right, well, we're all still alive. I gotta keep going. You know what I mean? Like now if I, you know, if I stand up and do something heinous right now, maybe I can't get past that. But I don't I live my life very simply. I'm gonna tell you something. When my kids asked me what the key to life is, when they were younger, I said, I said, Well, here's what I do. I don't lie unless I have to. And I treat people the way I want to be treated as often as I can. And I don't feel bad about anything that doesn't follow those two rules I'm doing, I'm doing my best. I have good intentions every day. And so if something doesn't go right, or my intentions can't cover everyone, well, then that's what it is. I'm not gonna sit back here and feel badly about it. And if somebody doesn't, you know, to be more specific, if there are people listening this podcast who don't like it, and some of them are happy to tell me. And I read their reviews. And I think, well, it's not for them. I never once think I should stop doing this, you know, and it I see who it helps, it helps more people than it doesn't help. It's a valuable thing. I wouldn't spend five seconds worrying about the alternative.

Well, and that is a result also boundaries, right of having healthy boundaries around your mindset.

Yeah, well, listen, I don't want to be, you know, like, you know, but let me just say this. Think of all the people you know, how many of them do you trust? So what are you gonna start worrying about people you don't know, for coming and saying things to you, I saw something in the Facebook group recently. That was, was, you know, it happens once in a while, like someone, I'm gonna give a very like, generalized. Like, someone comes out and describes, this is a cat. And then someone says, Yes, that is a cat. And they go, I can't believe you said that to me. Don't come on and tell me that, you know, my family treats me like this. And when on somebody else's value where your family is terrible, don't go you can't speak about my family like that was like, well, you came here, you described a terrible situation. And now I'm agreeing with you, and trying to support you. And suddenly, you don't want me to tell you the cat's a cat. Like, well, then I don't know what to do here. And I never feel that way. Like I just feel like, Just be honest. And take honest responses from people do take the ones you want. Like, I'm not going to tell you that there haven't been some reviews that I've read. And I thought that person's right. You know, I mean, if you if you don't go back and listen to eight years of this podcast and see that in 2022 that the split of me speaking to the guests speaking is more 5050 than it was in the beginning. Well, you're not you know, I've learned so I mean, somebody said that to me. Two years ago, like you didn't you talk too much? And at first I was like, Alright, fair enough? You know, I'll see what I can do about it. So

yeah, beat your open. Like, again, that's the boundaries like of knowing when when is it appropriate to let something in? And when is it not? Yeah. And I think that the Facebook posts you just described, that maybe that feels like, I think just going back to the awareness of, if you are feeling a certain emotion, I know, we're talking specifically about guilt here. But if you're posting something, and you're responding differently, then maybe you're that person was looking for something different, right? And a need was not met in that other person's response. But just going back to that awareness of cash, I'm posting so much about this guilt, and it's not changing. I think that really is the, you know, the first step in trying to help yourself, but also normalizing and validating for yourself that it's going to happen, right?

I want to say to that, you know, as we use examples from like a Facebook group, that people could be like, Oh, that's online, it's, trust me, I've been looking at it for years, it is a reflection of how people feel, it's actually an honest reflection of how they feel because they feel anonymous to some degree. And so this is their one chance to get this. This unburden themselves. Sometimes. It's, you know, forget it being a Facebook post. It's it's a person's thought. And then it's how they respond to other people around them. I don't know, I My point was that people don't have real control over how you feel if you don't let them. And I don't know the secret to that. I just know it's true. Like there, there are probably I was talking to somebody recently, and you probably have to go. But I was talking to somebody recently, who runs another Facebook group. And they said, I don't like it when people speak poorly about my Facebook group. And I was like, Why do you care? And I said, Aren't you you're helping all these people, right? And I said, Yeah, I said, Well, somebody doesn't like the way you do it. Like, who cares? And I said, don't you think that there are other people in the world who don't agree with you? And I said, you're just not aware of them. But they don't. It's the same. It's just like when my kids asked me about, like, when cyber bullying first happened, like you don't think of it but as technology changes, you know, things happen in the zeitgeist that become more real cyber bullying is one of those things. I told my kids I was like, don't look, it doesn't exist. And I'm like, what I was like, there could be someone in the backyard right now. Telling, I don't know the birds. What an owl I am. I don't hear him, it ain't happen. And, and I said, Now, if it becomes real in your life, you know what I mean? Like, that's obviously a different story. But the idea that everyone's gonna like you, or agree with you. I don't even know why people would expect that. Like, Have I ever told you how when I first met my wife, she said, Do you know some people really don't like you?

I don't know if you shared that with me. She goes, she goes,

some people love you. And some people really don't like you. And I said, Yeah, I know. And she used the person as an example. And it was a person that I generally don't have a lot of respect for. To begin with. I didn't know they didn't like me. But they're a person like I would not model myself after. And my answer to her was, what would it say about me? If he did like me? I'm glad he doesn't like me. I mean, looking at who he is, that's not the kind of person I would want to agree with who I am. And I don't know, I just felt like that since I was young.

You know, anyway, so that's, that's yeah, that's those are your boundaries and kind of protective measures?

I don't. I don't test them any more or less than someone else does. Which makes me feel like anyone could put themselves in that position. I just don't know how to tell them to do it. I don't know.

About Yes. And you but I think over. I mean, I know we could keep going but I think it's just over your lifetime, too. You've learned how to protect yourself in those ways. Just based on the anecdotes I've heard over. Times together. Yeah.

Hands up. bariga bob and weave you don't I mean? Yeah. Where the swings are coming from and just get out. I don't know. Anyway, I wish everybody a ton of luck. This is an incredibly serious thing. I guilt is horrible. Shame feels horrible. I hope you can find a way not to, to to to get sucked into that vortex and I don't know.

Good luck. Yeah, you're not alone. And reach reach out. Write help. Go Go

wherever you can. Erica. only works in California because laws. But, but she can help you virtually Erica Forsyth. Right. Yes, that's right. Yeah. If you're a California resident, or there have to be somebody, somebody in your local area must have went to college and paid attention enough to help you go find that person.

Thank you

a huge thank you to one of today's sponsors, GE voc glucagon, find out more about Chivo Capo pen at G voc glucagon.com. Ford slash juicebox. you spell that GVOKEGL You see ag o n.com forward slash juicebox. To get started today with us med go to us med.com forward slash juice box or call 888721151 for your diabetes supplies. Well that can be an easy thing doesn't have to be a pain. Try us med often your blood glucose meter just gets given to you by a doctor but you have a choice and you can get a great one at contour next one.com forward slash juice box thanks so much to the Contour Next One blood glucose meter for sponsoring this episode of The Juicebox Podcast we mentioned it in the episode but if you live in California and you'd like to use Erica, she she got a website. Erica forsyth.com Go check her out. She really is terrific. And you know what the Facebook page got mentioned a lot during this episode. It's a private group. It has 25,000 people in it now Juicebox Podcast type one diabetes, you have to answer a couple of questions just so the algorithm over at Facebook knows you're a real person. And then you're right in Juicebox Podcast type one diabetes, absolutely fantastic group. I'm incredibly proud of it and I think it might be valuable to you. I think that's about it for today. Thank you so much for listening. I'll be back very soon with another episode of The Juicebox Podcast. Please remember to take care of your mental health as well as your physical health. It's all very important and one helps the other

Hello friends and welcome to episode 720 of the Juicebox Podcast Erica Forsythe is back today, you know Erica, she is the licensed marriage and family therapist who also has type one diabetes. Today Eric and I are going to be discussing a few ideas ranging from I don't want to tell you, I tell you, you're gonna think they're boring and you're not going to listen, but it's a great, I'll tell you anyway, I trust you, you'll listen. We're gonna go over magical thinking, cognitive dissonance, and choice myth. There are ways that your brain works that you might not be aware of, and it impacts how you think about things like diabetes or anything really. While you're listening. Please remember that nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise, always consult a physician before making any changes to your healthcare plan, or becoming bold with insulin. If you have type one diabetes, and you're a US resident, or are the caregiver of someone with type one, I would like to ask you to go to T one day exchange.org Ford slash juice box, join the registry, fill out the survey. When you're done, you will benefit people living with type one diabetes and support the Juicebox Podcast p one D exchange.org. Forward slash juice box. Today's episode of The Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by us med. Go now to us med.com Ford slash juice box or call 888-721-1514 When you do that, you'll be getting a free benefits check to see if you can get started with us med this show is sponsored today by the glucagon that my daughter carries. G voc hypo Penn. Find out more at G voc glucagon.com. Forward slash juicebox. If you're in California and in search of a therapist, check out Erica forsyth.com

Good morning I'm spending to hear your voice and talk and connect.

Yeah, I'm happy to hear from you again. And and I'm happy you're getting your needs taken care of too.

I you know, it was such a hard you know, it's I realize it's never never a good time to have knee surgery. And it's funny that you thinking about you know, the another choice myth that you had mentioned, I'm like, Oh my gosh, I've been living in that zone of well, I know everything now but should I push it off to winter break when there's not as much going on? And you know, like, I'm gonna miss this, this and this if I do it now like the conference, but I don't know what I'm gonna miss and then winter break, you know, so

there's no good time.

I know. I knew you just had your you had a meniscus

repair. Yes. So and we're recording to see, you know, that's okay. But yes, so I just woke up one day, and it felt like someone hit me on the inside of my knee with a hammer. And I was like, and my knees had been like creaky and clicky for years. So I tried for a month to kind of rehab it on my own. And I was like, this is going nowhere. I wore a brace. And then the brace started to take the pain away. And I was like, oh, there's some instability in there somewhere. I went to my guy who fixed my shoulder. And he just, it's funny. They, they know what they're doing. He's like, grabs, it moves around a little bit. He goes, Yeah, he goes, you got a meniscus tear. Is that what you learned in college? That's amazing. You know, because it took him like four, four seconds, and I guess we'll have to verify it with an MRI. So I went and did the MRI. And he's like, yeah, it definitely is. Don't worry. He's like, we're just gonna poke two holes. He goes, I'll be in another 2025 minutes. I'm gonna clean it up for you. It's gonna be great. And he's like, You're too old to fix it. I was like, well, that doesn't sound exciting. What do you mean, you can't fix it? And he goes, Yeah, we can't fix it. We're just cleaning it up. And he goes, but I don't see any arthritis. He's like, this is great. Real super easy. So I go in, I get the Jackson juice. I mean, gone out. And next thing I know, he's standing over me. When grade Scott. There was some arthritis in there. We'll talk about the appointment tomorrow. And then he just walks away. And I'm like, wait, what? Yeah, guy in the office three weeks ago said that there was not going to be a problem like this. So it turns out the interior part of my knee is just was like arthritis, and the tear in the meniscus, which was worse than he thought it was, by the way. And then the he goes because the outside of your knees like looks like you're 20 years old. It's like I'm not covered by anything you're saying. You know, and then they after the surgery says so you're probably gonna need a knee replacement 510 years. And then I go through the rehab and everything and I say Do you really think I'm gonna need a replacement in five or 10 years and he goes, maybe not. And I'm like, What do you kind of just say the First thing that comes to your mind, like, you know, like, she goes out, there's no way to know. And I was like, six weeks ago, you were like, definitely five to 10 years. And now there's no way to know. And he said, he pulls up his pant leg and he's got ice on his knee. He goes, I just got mine done yesterday. Like,

oh, my gosh,

I'm like, did your need and he was my partner. And I was like, should I have gone to him? He's the guy you went to, you know? Anyway, it just, but it was to be perfectly honest. I mean, the rehab from it took, I was on my feet in a couple of days, no problem. And I don't think I use the crutch for more than, like, 36 hours, and even that I was kind of pretending to use it. The rehab was easy, and it feels 1,000,000% Better now. So I don't know how it's gonna last year, obviously, in a different situation, though.

Yes, yes, I'm at full knee replacement. But, and that's a whole long story, too. But I'm glad to hear that your rehab has. Truly Yeah. And I think they can't predict you know it because they don't know how you wear and tear you put on your knee. Really?

Well. I was gonna say you were an athlete in college, right?

I played volleyball for 20 plus years, I did not have any known injuries from playing volleyball, but then got into hot yoga and had a meniscus tear about 10 to 11 years ago.

Interesting. That's interesting. Okay, so anyway, so we were looking for something to talk about today. And because of your injury, and we're going to be you know, there's gonna be a little gap in time between I see you I didn't want to start on the series that we're thinking about. Yeah. Because there would have been weird to start it and stop it and start it again. Yes. So I sent you some ideas that I find interesting that I don't particularly understand as much as I'd like to. You okay, talking about this stuff?

I am? I am. Yes, they're Yeah, they can be kind of challenging concepts to fully understand. But I think they're really important to know and talk about, let's give

it a shot. Do you have any particular order you care that these happened in or No,

no, I think the order that you wrote down, or however, whatever comes to mind first.

Okay. All right. So I started with the idea of Magical Thinking. Yes. Right. And it's funny when I, when I think about it, I just think it's something that people have an idea about, or thought about, etc, then they just think there's some sort of, like, causal effect between how they think, and what happens. Is that a, is that basically, right?

Yes, yes. And I think it could, there are varying levels and degrees of house like either serious or connected, you are two that that causal link. And I think it's often helpful to talk to explain it with examples. But I think that definition is good that your your beliefs, your ideas, your actions, your internal world can somehow influence or affect the events of your environment, or the the, your material world,

right, so that they use the term magical thinking, but it's also it's kind of superstition to.

Yeah, yeah.

So what are examples you have that that could paint a picture for people,

I think one of the easiest that we often believe in childhood or you know, making a wish, when you blow out your birthday candles, that that might come true, or throwing coins into a fountain, that and making a wish, whereas you throw the coin, a fountain, those are maybe like positive hopeful ones, there could be either negative superstitions, like stepping on a crack or having a black cat cross your path or walking under a ladder, those might, then you might believe that that's going to cause bad luck to happen. Those are kind of childhood superstitions, or types of Magical Thinking, that are pretty common and normal and playful and fun. And sometimes those can carry on in to adulthood. And I think, at some point, it can become problematic, which we can get into. If you're noticing that it's really impairing your functioning and your mental outlook on life,

I'm gonna give you an example. Okay, we're at what ended up being my son's last game of his senior season of college baseball. Games not going well. They're going to lose. And I watched adults, people who have, by my estimation, good jobs, who own homes, who I've seen make rational decisions about things over and over again, who I've had long conversations with and who seem very reasonable. I started watching them do the craziest stuff from talking to them. selves under their breath when their kids were hitting to changing their seating position to watch people move their phones from pocket to pocket, and I thought, oh my god, everyone's crazy.

Oh, yeah, we're wearing the same jersey or the same hat. Oh, are the same position?

Yeah. Alright, go where did this person go? They moved to left field because the last time they stood in left field, their kid got a triple. I watched, I watched a person like, not striking themselves hard, but like, softly pounding on the side of their head while their kid was hitting. I was like, what is happening right now talking to themselves. Here's why they lost the game, in case any of them are listening. They started the wrong pitcher.

Not because he didn't wear the same shirt. Yeah, I don't

want to give the kid up. But it is the wrong choice. That's why they lost the game. They started the wrong pitcher that was that. But my goodness, people shifting around in their seats. It was just it was fascinating. They all thought that they were about to impact the luck that was happening on the field when which Meantime, baseball is not luck. It's it's kind of like it's a it's controlled chaos. It's randomness that once in a while works in your favor. And you know, and and everyone tricks themselves into believing that they figured out the thing to do so the randomness breaks for them more frequently. And and my best example, that's still wrapped around baseball is how people talk about it. If you win a game, you know, I don't know if you win a game five nothing. You go into the dugout, you say, oh my god, we hit great today. But if you lose the game five, nothing. You don't say, Oh, we hit terribly today. You say wow, they really pitched great today. It's interesting. Right? Right, like you didn't when no one wants to take credit for losing, they only want to take credit for winning.

Yeah, and I think you're trying to have maybe either some semblance of control. in it. Yeah, as you said he kind of contract controlled chaos environment. And, or it's just a simple, you know, hope belief system that you're wanting to do anything you can and believe in anything that you can to hopefully have a positive outcome on a situation that you don't have control over as a parent.

Is that is that magical thinking if I get up and move to left field? Or is it also a tiny bit of confirmation bias? Like, well, I did this last time in this word, and then let the magical thinking take the thought to the next step. Is that possible? I

think it's reinforcing like every time you do, I think going back to like, every time you throw a coin in the fountain and you make a wish and that wish comes true. That's reinforcing that bias or that belief that oh, this actually works for me, when maybe, you know, it doesn't have any bearing on that outcome or that wish that you made. That, yeah, go ahead.

It's fast. It's fascinating. And you you said earlier, like, it's not really very harmful. Like, I don't care if people go stand in a different place the baseball, meaningless to me. But can that get to the point where it's at an OCD level?

Yeah, I think, you know, as you're thinking about magical thinking, and superstition, and that's all fun and games, so to speak, as a child and even into adulthood, with the sport theme that we're talking about, I think, and even it can be positive. When you're thinking about, you know, the power of positive thinking, if you have, you'll read and learn about the power of positive thinking for people who are diagnosed with cancer. And while there's actually no direct evidence or research, that the positive thinking has a direct causal link to reducing the cancer or you know, prolonging your life, it does have a positive effect on your management of stress and and that they can they have said, helps you heal better and respond to treatment, all that. So that can be really positive if your belief system is if I think this way, and I manifest this thing in this way, then it's going to happen. I think, if you're thinking about it in the opposite direction of oh my gosh, I thought badly, I had a bad thought about a family member or a friend. And then something bad happened to that family member or a friend then you're placing blame on yourself because you had that thought. I think that's where you there's a slippery slope getting into maybe negative pattern negative thinking patterns. Or you might be controlling you think you're controlling outcomes when you're actually not. And eventually, yes, it can become it can develop into maybe OCD behaviors or with more severe anxiety, where if you think about you're trying to control outcomes in life If I worry about this, anticipate this bad thing happening, then maybe it won't happen. Or maybe I won't feel as bad when it happens. And that, that can become really problematic.

Yeah, so interesting, because then if you if you use this kind of way of thought, in a, in a bubble, like you wouldn't, it's just about you, like, I'll be positive about this. And, you know, sure, the positivity is probably not really going to affect my, my knee healing faster. But it will make take my stress away. And if I'm not stressed about it, that actually will help my knee heal faster. So there's no no harm and just seeing the high side and, and, you know, hoping for the best and that kind of stuff. It's when you're, when you're thinking, if I do this thing, then a different human being on the planet is going to have a different outcome. That's that I mean, to me, that's such a strange idea. Like, I don't understand superstition at all. And then by by understand, I mean, like, I've never had a superstitious thought that lingered with me. And it's, um, and when I see other people have them, it's fascinating to me, it really is like, there, there are actual things you could do in some moments to help things like real things, and instead, you're busy. And you know, I'm bringing all this up, because because I think it relates to diabetes, and what ends up happening to people's if you have these feelings already, and then you or your kid gets diabetes, you could get stuck in a situation where you're now making poor decisions when there are better decisions to be made. And, you know, Canada stuck. Yeah. And then you can take it all the way out to the end. You know, the the biggest thing somebody sent me an article the other day, gosh, I think it was from Australia or New Zealand, whereas another family's been arrested because their kid got type one diabetes, and they said they were going to let God take care of it. And you know, obviously without insulin, the kid died. Yeah, right. And so that that is the other end of it. It's like we're not really talking about it because I don't listen to people's religious beliefs are their own and I think they're wonderful and I have literally no trouble in the world with anybody's religious beliefs. But when your religious beliefs get in the way of you given someone insulin, then you know the outcomes are pretty predictable. I actually think that's what killed Prince. Je voc hypo pan has no visible needle, and is a premixed auto injector of glucagon for treatment of very low blood sugar in adults and kids with diabetes ages two and above. Find out more go to G vo glucagon.com forward slash juicebox G voc shouldn't be used in patients with insulinoma or pheochromocytoma. Visit G voc glucagon.com/risk. Hey, guess where I'm getting Ardens Dexcom supplies from now? Yeah, it's not the place I used to get them from not the place that would send me 1000 emails but never the supplies or leave a bunch of voicemails on my answering machine but never get me the supplies or make me call the doctor's office instead of them doing it the way they said not that place. That's not where I get them from anymore. Now I get them from us med us med.com forward slash juicebox here's some things that US med does that you may not know about. How about they've acquired an A plus rating with the Better Business Bureau where they accept Medicare nationwide and over 800 private insurers Did you know that US med will always provide you with 90 days worth of supplies and they have fast and free shipping? They carry everything from the FreeStyle Libre to to Ardens Dexcom G six, and everything in between. They are the number one distributor for FreeStyle Libre, the number one just specialty distributor from the pod dash the number one fastest growing tandem distributor and the number one distributor index com customer satisfaction surveys. How about that? Huh? U S med.com forward slash juicebox. Or if you don't like the internet, call 888-721-1514 You can get your diabetes supplies the way we do from us med we're gonna get back to Erica right now and my story about prints which may or may not be true, or perhaps just something I heard one day anyway, don't forget to go to T one D exchange.org. Forward slash juice box fill out the survey support people with type one diabetes support the Juicebox Podcast D one D exchange.org. Forward slash juice box. Links to tea one of the exchange links to Dexcom on the pod us med in pen I'm forgetting people now at this point, Contour Next One Blood glucose meter. All the sponsors are in the shownotes of your podcast player. We're at juicebox podcast.com. Am I not wrong about that?

Yeah, I don't know. I can't speak to that for certain. Okay,

so let me let me listen, I'll tell the story. And if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. But okay. My ex, my understanding was that Prince's religion precluded him from having his body cut open. And so he instead medicated his pain. And, you know, the drugs got him one day. So, the idea was, he could have had a surgery that would have relieved his pain, he wouldn't have had to take all these pain pills. And it might have changed the course of his life. But because of his his belief, which, you know, again, if it wasn't going to put him in the situation he was in hurts no one, it not even him. But I don't know, I just, you know, at some point, there's just there are just so many times I see online, my kids blood sugar's really high, and someone will come in and say, I'm going to pray for you. And I think that's wonderful. Like, I think that's lovely. I mean, these are two disconnected people who don't know each other, and one of them saying, Look, I can't do anything for you, but I will pray for you. That's terrific. My worry is always that on the other side, somebody might be thinking, Oh, well, this person's prayer will take care of this when you need to Bolus or something. Right. Right. Right. Yeah. Anyway, what happens when you see somebody who has has had these thoughts? Do you try to help them with them? How would you go about it?

I think most often, when someone is in my office, they've they've kind of maybe arrived at the place of their anxious thinking, has the magical thinking has developed into anxious thinking in terms of I am so nervous about the either the future or something bad happening, whether in the diabetes world, I'm so worried about, you know, having complications or having a low. And in there, yes, there are things that you can do to prevent, to, to protect, prevent all those things. But there are also if the anxiety is so consuming, where that's all you're thinking about all the time. Right? So you're having difficulty sleeping, you're having difficulty staying in relationship with with friends or family. Because that, that anxiety is, well, if I just I worry about it and think about it all day long, maybe that'll prevent that bad thing from happening. And so that's when we would look at, you know, what are? What are the triggers? What are some ways to kind of reduce the frequency of those of those thoughts, and then practicing some coping strategies to reduce that. But I think that that's where I would work with somebody, and when that the prevalence and the persistency of that anxious thinking, and that it really is kind of magical thinking kind of blown up, right? If I just if I worry about it and think about it all day long, it's not going to happen, or it's going to reduce the pain of when that bad thing does happen.

Okay, yeah, yeah, it's, um, I know a person, Eric, I know a person who lays the groundwork for something to go wrong months in advance, it just, it is a part of their personality. It's fascinating, they lower the bar. So far, that any thing that happens, looks like success. And then that's how they keep themselves, you know, in the situation they're in, but they, I don't I, the one thing I can't tell you is if it's conscious or not, but you know, the, if I don't know if the if a holidays coming up six months from now, they'll start telling you why they'll probably be busy, or why they can't get there or why it's going to go wrong, or why they won't be able to afford a gift. Or they just they they lay out this this runway of reasons. So that in the moment when the failure happens, which I guess is how they're saying it that no one's mad at them. Maybe you just made me think about it differently. Like I always thought they were lowering expectations, but maybe they're trying to protect themselves.

Yeah, I think it's a protective mechanism. Because either either you're thinking if I worry about it, this this possible negative outcome, then it'll protect me when it happens. Because I've always I already worried about it so much. So when it does happen, it's not going to feel as painful which is that's a lie, right? That's a cognitive distortion. That you're that the anxiety is telling you. That if you worry about it, either it won't happen or you won't feel as much pain when it does happen.

Okay, so then the next thing on my list was cognitive dissonance. Yes. And that is what you were just referring to correct? Well,

cognitive distortions are a bunch of different kinds of lies that and belief systems that can develop cognitive dissonance. And these are like big words, is actually is the feeling that the kind of the stress or emotional or mental discomfort that you experience when you're too different either belief system systems or behaviors have are in conflict. Okay. And I think, too, I think going back to the examples might be the most helpful to please explain what cognitive cognitive dissonance is, it's important to know that that isn't, it isn't the aftermath, it's the it's the feeling the mental discomfort when two conflicting beliefs or values or attitudes occur. And so one example is, I think the easiest example, and the most kind of challenging is smoking, somebody likes to smoke. And either however they've gotten there, they like to, they like to smoke cigarettes. But the they know that the smoking can is harmful to their body and cause cancer. So you're you you're either addicted, or you have the pattern you'd like to smoke, however often or not, but then you're so that that's your action, but then the your belief is, oh, but I know this is causing my heart harm to my body. So then you're in that space of cognitive dissonance. Okay, I think same thing with like, you could apply it to diabetes. Sorry, go ahead, where you're gonna know, I'm

just I'm trying to make sure I'm following along. So okay, in like a small way. I've heard people say, like, like they're using a Weight Watchers app, for example. And they, they actually, I mean, you're the only one that's aware of what the app says, You're the only one that was aware of what you've eaten, and they lie to the app. So that's an example of this, right?

Yes, be? Well, that is your that is the, you're changing your action, to reduce the cognitive dissonance that you're experiencing. So they, they ate five cookies. But and but they're on a diet, they're trying to be on a diet, they ate five cookies. So now they're in cognitive dissonance. They're feeling emotionally discomfort, emotional discomfort. And so to relieve that dissonance, they're going to lie to the app to reduce some of that discomfort.

That's interesting. So I'm gonna give you an example from my life and tell me if this is right. Or if I'm trying to put a square peg in a round hole. So I know a person who chose to vote in a certain direction, in a in a federal election, and then they got their candidate, and then the candidate did something that they didn't want to happen. And so initially, they spent a lot of time on social media saying, you know, you have to vote for this person, you have to vote for this person, then, you know, that happened, and they were all happy. And then the thing happened, this law got put into place. And then they come out and say, I can't believe this happened. How can we let this happen? And I looked at it, I thought, This is what you voted for, like, this is the thing you like this was going to happen if you voted, right. And I always thought, as I looked at it, I have to admit, my, my, my hot take was they didn't understand the impact of their vote. But now you're making me think that you knew this was gonna happen. And now this is them protecting themselves like I needed to vote for this person because of, I don't know, any number of reasons that I agreed with. But there were a couple of things I didn't agree with. And now that one of those things came true. I need to distance myself from that somehow. Is

that Yes, yeah. Or blaming. So that's kind of the that is the result of the dissonance they might have experienced,

okay, so they made that just yet led to this thing. And now they need to let the world know they're not okay with this part.

Yeah, I mean, that's, that is. Yeah, it's so it is a complicated notion. I think, in that moment, they're, maybe they're feeling guilt or regret about voting for that person. Because now and so that that guilt or regret about voting for that person or feeling embarrassed. That's the dissonance. Yeah. And then they're gonna either you're gonna change your belief or change your behavior to reduce that dissonance right

and In this example, I'm obviously trying not to make it a partisan idea. But in this example, this is a thing you can all trust me, that was very obviously attached to the candidate. It's not like, okay, it's not like the 17 thing down on their list, and they're like, I can't believe they made all the parks close at 10 o'clock. Like, I didn't know that was gonna happen when I voted for them. Like this was a thing, that that four year olds were going to know what's gonna happen if this person, you know, gotten to power. So you don't I mean, like, I always just assumed like, I don't know, it's funny, I always just assumed stupidity. But now I'm thinking, this is the same thing I was talking about with the other person who lays the groundwork for protecting themselves from feeling badly placed is super interesting.

Yeah, I think most often we're responding, whether we're blaming ourselves or blaming others, or trying to change or lie to ourselves or lie to others, your your can usually acting out of that discomfort within yourself, because of the your, the action that you had is, is in conflict with your belief system. And then you have to reduce that discomfort. Okay. And then, and then you see kind of different. So if we're going back to the the smoking example, to reduce that dissonance that they're feeling every time they have a cigarette, even though they enjoy it, but they know it's bad for their body, then to reduce the dissonance, they're going to say to themselves, if they're going to change their belief, or say, well, it's I don't I only smoke once every other day. And that's, I'm, I'm not gonna have any damage to myself. Or you change the behavior, because the dissonance has become so severe and you stop smoking.

Yeah. Do you think generally speaking, this is one of these questions, you're not gonna like, I heard you do it when I was thinking. Do you think generally speaking, if we look at the masses, like taking everybody into account that statistically, most people aren't going to change? Right? So it because you have to recognize it, it has to intellectually make sense to us to emotionally make sense, you have to search out help or make some kind of like, tough decision for yourself. So So generally speaking, I mean, listen, I'll relate it back to the podcast, I think if you listen to the podcast, your agency is easily in the sixes, maybe in the fives if you try harder. So by that, you know, let's say that's true, then all everyone living with insulin has to do is listen to this podcast, and they're going to be okay, except we know that's not going to happen. And so these people who are involved in these kinds of thoughts, they're torturing themselves. Like, is there not a humane argument to be made for just lean into it smoke all the cigarettes you want and die earlier, but that might be better than torturing yourself and living 10 more years, that like, because at least they're not going to be, you know, mentally tortured by this thing that they know, they're not supposed to be, you know, quote, unquote, supposed to be doing? Like, I don't know, like it is what I'm saying is live fast die young, leave a good looking corpse is that like,

I think eventually, you will ultimately have to make that decision to say, you know, forget it, I'm, I'm going to live my life. I like to smoke, and I'm not going to keep this battle up. Every time I have a cigarette, right? I think ultimately, you will make that decision, and to say, Oh, I'm fine. It's not gonna happen to me, or I'm not gonna think about it, I'm fine. I think yeah,

good even to take it out of the health room. I see people do it with homes, they have a home and they say, Look, I'm going to spend the extra money I have on living, and this house is going to fall apart around me. And when it's over, it's not going to be worth anything to me, I'm not gonna be able to sell it make a bunch of money, but I don't care. I'm gonna put my I'm gonna put my money where I want it to be. And, and they're okay with it. And they're the kind of people who that if you speak to them, there's no, they're not embarrassed. They don't care that their house is the one on the street that looks like it's, you know, the monsters live there. They really they don't, they don't care. They're good ones that decision they've made. And I'm wondering, I want I'm wondering what the, what the trade off is between not torturing yourself and just being okay with it. And, you know, sure, you might lose on the back end. But in the moment, it might be much more pleasant for you now, not to say that, by the way, there's a balance, that guy could spend some of his money on the house and some of his money on him. Or you could you know, try harder not to do the thing that you don't want to do. But But I guess in the as I'm listening to it, the sad part of this is the torture part, the part where people are, are doing that to themselves. And I guess if you could, if you could impact one aspect of this whole thing, that would be step one in my mind. Do you

is making that choice of how you're going to live? Yeah, yeah.

So that so that everything you do isn't painful.

Yes, and I think that diamond, that would be the most ideal, I think we're I know we're talking about like, bigger issues. But this can happen, you know, on a day to day basis making a decision of, you don't want to miss out on going to a party, or doing something that you think might be fun. But ultimately, you don't really want to go, but you do it anyway, because of either pressure, or you feel like you should go to the party. And then you go, and you get there, and you're feeling discomfort, because you like, Why did I go? I didn't want to be here. So I think then, then you make that decision of okay, well, am I going to, you know, stay myself for going, am I going to stay? Am I going to leave? You know, that's, that's the aftermath of the dissonance. So I think these things can happen. Very, they're small, little quick moments of decision making, all day long that we have. And I think what you're, what you're encouraging is, can you be in a place of just being grounded and listening to your gut, so to speak, and responding and then being kind to yourself, whatever you decide,

yeah, just whatever you did, you did. And that's it. We'll do it later. Like, you'll try again, if it didn't work out the right way. But, but so many people get caught in a in a loop. Yes. You know, the first is the first the first thing, the first decision they make, it doesn't go well. They just, they just keep reliving it, instead of just letting it go. And I hate this. Like, I'm a fairly. I'm a reasonably controlled person. Do you really mean like, I'm not an out of control person? I guess. And, and yet, I would tell you that nothing really matters all that much. Like if you don't kill somebody hurt somebody. There's almost nothing you can't rebound from, you know what I mean? Like, it's just, I don't know, Erica, do you have a? Do you have a code you live by?

Oh, I don't, I don't think I can. A specific code or mantra. But I think knowing that you are, that I am loved and to be kind to one another. And I preach pretty loud and clear of being kind and gracious to yourself, to oneself to myself, you know, as we go about our lives and offering that to others. Yeah, you know, equally.

That just makes sense. You get well, I mean, when I was young, I mean, everyone knows, right? Like, I didn't grow up, like with a real like, you know, with parents who were like, here's the rules get an amen. The rules were listen, and we're broke, you know, so try not to eat that today. Save for tomorrow. So, so I stepped back, and I thought, I need something to follow, like, like an idea to follow, right? And there's no, I don't have religion, so there was nothing there. And I thought about it, and I thought about it. I said, Okay, well, here's what I'm gonna do. I'm not going to hurt another person. I'm going to treat people generally the way I hope to be treated. And I'm not going to lie, if I can help it like that those that teenage me came up with. And I have to be honest with you works out pretty well. Because most of the time turns out, you don't have to lie. You don't I mean, and what do I mean, if if I can help it. Here's a great example. This happened yesterday, my wife ordered a bench for the house. It came in a box, it was missing parts, the parts kept the thing from being put together correctly. So the side of the bench is not attached to the top of the bench correctly. We called the company that made it and we tried to get the parts sent to us. The part was not available. They said, We don't have replacement parts for it, you're going to have to return the bench, but we bought it through Amazon. So they said you have to do it through Amazon. I called Amazon, I spoke to a person. And she said, What's the problem? And I have to admit to you what the problem is, is that I don't want to take that bench apart and ship it back to them. But it was a couple of $100. And I can't afford to just eat it. So she said you need to ship it back to us. And I said I can't. And she said Why is it I have no packaging material and it won't fit in my car. And she refunded my money. And I'm going to use that money to buy another bench. That was a lie, Erica, I could absolutely return that bench if I wanted. I do not want it. It's not my fault that it showed up without parts in it. And I am not going to go spend the next two hours of my life ripping this thing apart, boxing it up and dragging it back to a UPS store. I didn't do this. So I made some sort of a moral judgment that I was more on the right side of this than the wrong side of it. And I called one lie to get my money back. I have no trouble with that in the world. Now. Would I walk over my neighbor and tell him that I know his wife's cheating on somebody else because I think it would be fun. No, I would not do that. I would not make up I like that. So that's my, that's my line for lying.

You have some limits

what I consider to be a significant limit, but but you can pretty much trust. I would imagine if you were around me, you could trust that 99.9% of the time, I am absolutely being honest. If I get pinched, I'll bend the truth if I have to. Now, I always treat people the way I want to be treated, that I don't bend on. So I don't know. Like, I don't know if that's a Those are rules or not. But to me, they seem they seem like obvious things to do. And I don't know how I even brought it up at this point. I just was,

yeah, it's a belief value system that maybe prevents you from experiencing the disc dissonance, the discomfort of how you want your, your beliefs and actions to align. And when they don't, that's when you experience the dissonance.

Yeah, man, well, you know, even this topic with you today, like these kinds of like, like many topics inside of this. I mean, if we're all being 100% honest with each other, I have the opportunity, just like you do, to see how people are really thinking, right, because they'll come on here and tell a story. And they're pretty open about it, or I get to watch them online interact with each other, when they don't know they're being watched really like kind of thing. Like it's not creepy. I'm like you just listening to what people are saying and how they're, how they're impacting, and how these things are impacting their lives. And I'm telling you, that, from my perspective, a fair amount of the trouble people have managing their diabetes is based on how their brains are lying to them at times, or these things. You know what I mean? Like, and no one's I'm not aware of it, no one's aware of it as it happens. So you have to have these conversations that hopefully something like, morphs or clicks for you. You know what I mean?

Yes, yes. Because I think then, where the this, this discomfort can then lead to the feelings of shame, and stress or regret that, you know, that I might hear about in my office with with clients or caregivers of I supposed to be doing this, or I made this mistake, I Bolus this way. Or I keep doing the same thing, even though I know I shouldn't be. And I keep eating the same thing. And then my numbers go this way. And now and then I experienced that discomfort because I know I feel like I shouldn't be because then you often have that should talk comes with the dissonance. And then you that leads to feelings of shame, and you can get stuck in that cycle. So we're trying to, you know, going back to it, let's be aware of those triggers. And those initial thought patterns is one of the ways that we can kind of release reduce some of that consistency and negative thinking, which is painful,

talk a little more about the should like when something goes through, quote unquote. And you think this is not how it should have gone? What happens then?

Yeah. So I think I hear that either whether there are rules around what you should and shouldn't eat. So if you're thinking I shouldn't have had the cake, I shouldn't have had all the candy or I'm not allowed. If it's more of a child thing I'm not supposed to I shouldn't have had that. And now I'm 500 or 300, and I can't. And then I had a sticky high forever, I couldn't bring it down. And then so now you're you're feeling frustrated about the high blood sugar. You're feeling shame because you ate something that you felt you weren't supposed to. Or you can eat anything you want, and you didn't Pre-Bolus for it. And so I think when we have that should talk in our mind, I think we want to look at why. What is that rule? What is the rule that I'm saying? I should have done this or I shouldn't have done that. Should you have Pre-Bolus? Yeah, probably should Was it okay to eat whatever it was that you ate? Well, let's look at what is your family culture? Like what is all that about? Because I don't want to I don't I try not to place judgment and some families don't want to, you know, eat sugar, and that's okay. So the should talk can lead to positive change unless it's, it's around this kind of shame cycle of I should have done a better job I keep making mistakes. And I don't know how or I don't care. So should often can lead to change in some ways, if there is a desire, but I also am really careful to want to understand is there shame underneath the should talk? Okay, does that make sense?

No, it does. I was gonna say that. Back in the earlier part of the podcast, I would say more frequently. that, you know, just eliminate drama. Because it because it was an easy blanket way of saying avoid all these things that your brain is going to try to trick you into doing. You know, like, because when you when you make a Bolus and it doesn't go right. And then people This isn't fair like you spiral like, No, I didn't ask for this, that that's one that I'm always fascinated by, like, you know, type one diabetes is not fair because I didn't ask for it. And I'm like, My knee hurts. That's not fair. I didn't ask for it, I floated my vision. That's not fair. I didn't like none of this is fair, you gonna hear me like, it's never never going to be fair, like you're born. And then you grow and then your body starts to deteriorate. It happens at different speeds for different people. It happens if you have different medical conditions, it's going to hit you differently. Like, I don't know what, I don't know what spending time telling me it's not fair gets you like, this is the situation you're in, like, I'm gonna make the most of it person. Like, there are no other options, you're here or you're not. And so you're here and I'm not saying some people don't have terrible afflictions that are painful and, and crippling and life altering. I'm not talking about those people, those people that they should, they should get three hours a day to tell people it's not fair. And we ought to have to listen to them. I'm talking. You don't I mean, like, I mean, that that would be that would be a little closer to fair. I'm talking about, you know, you have allergies, and you can't go outside without taking Zyrtec. That's not fair. But I mean, just take this check. You know, you live in this time, I was, when my son was diagnosed with Hashimotos, it hit him really hard. And instead of, and during a car ride, when we spoke about it, what I told him was, you know, a couple of 100 years ago, we were pretty nomadic people moved around a lot. I said, if you broke your leg, you were dead. You don't you mean like, like, the group couldn't wait for you. And so you'd get left by yourself. And an animal would kill you. Take the centroid, you know what I mean? Like, I know, this sucks and all. But the truth is, is that if this would have happened to you, 200 years ago, you would have just, like deteriorated very quickly, it would have been horrible. And instead, you have to take a pill in the morning. And so, you know, maybe 200 years from now, you'll go into a doctor's office, they'll be like, Oh, you got the Hashimotos that sucks. No, pull out a needle and jam it in. Yeah, and it'll go away. Like, I don't know, where we're gonna lead, you know where this is gonna go to. But in the meantime, there is no time machine. This is the this is the part you live in right now. And diabetes, specifically. I mean, I mean, this is the it's literally the best time in history. And tomorrow will be the better than today and six months from now. And and then people get caught up with well, it's not happening fast enough. And that's like, No, I get that. But, you know, it's, um, this is it. This is what you got, you know, so

yeah, yeah. And, and just like with your son, too, with the Hashimotos, it can be a journey or a process of yeah, getting to that place of acceptance. And that there's there's no real specific timeline and how to get there. Beyond just the kind of lowering yourself to feel what he was feeling.

Yeah. But But Erica, where's the? Is this just the fallacy that we're becoming weaker as people? We're doing it because like, I like I knew a guy when I was growing up, my friend's father walked really poorly, because of polio, he had polio as a kid. He's basically walking on the side of his foot. And you know what he did for a living? He drove a tractor trailer. And I never in the history of knowing this guy heard him complain, ever once. Like, like, he just did it like now maybe his expectations were lower because of the time he grew up in. And just maybe having not had the polio kill him was probably more than he could have hoped for, like, I don't know exactly, but I'm just telling you, this was not a particularly tough guy. He was just from a time where you didn't complain about things. You just just did it, you know. And, and I'm not saying that people should not try to alleviate their their struggles. I'm certainly not saying that. But I'm wondering, is it is there something about modern life that sets our expectations so high that anything that goes wrong? Seems like a like a huge. What's the word I want? Like that, like they were lied to?

All right, right. Yeah. Or

do you have any thoughts on that at all?

Oh, my gosh, I feel I guess that's a huge topic to discuss it. Yeah. Like, are we now in an era of either entitlement or expectation that nothing bad should happen? To me, we have oh my gosh. Well, I was just as you were talking about this man on the tractor trailer, I'm wondering how much of our connection via social media has, you know, influenced or snowballed this issue of my either my life is better than yours, or my life is harder than yours. You know, and whether through images or words on all the, you know, socials in a comparison kind of way, even though we all know everyone has their own struggles. So I just wonder how much of that has, you know, exaggerated? It's

super interesting that you said this, Erica, and no, no, but I, every time we talk, I realized why we get along so well. So I grew up a Philadelphia Eagles fan football. And we have the best defensive lineman in history at that point, Reggie White. And Reggie leaves the Eagles and goes to the Packers. At the end of of a contract. This is not something that used to occur back then. Like so free agency wasn't a thing in football up until I think it was another Eagles player a tight end, who went from the eagles to the dolphins. I think that's about when it started. Okay, not the point. The point is this, it's when they started making their their salaries public how black and because they needed to, they needed people to know how much they made. So other people could come and ask for more like they had to set up that structure. Prior to that it was all very, very kind of private, you didn't really know how much people made when they started making those people's salaries public. Suddenly, a man like Reggie White who people just adored. They hated him as soon as they learned how much he made. And and I thought, Well, you were so much better off not knowing you know what I mean? Like just go to the football game and enjoy the football game if that's what you like, like now you now you look at this guy, I forget what he was making back then it was probably nothing compared to now. And but people who made 2530 $45,000 A year were like, wait, I'm I work all year for 40 grand, and this guy's making half million dollars a week, he you know, or something like that. And then they couldn't see him anymore the way they saw him. And then it just exploded from there. And we started becoming more and more aware of people who have lives that are just if we're being honest, not average in any way. And now everybody thinks they should be making $7 million a year for doing the thing they're good at. And what I would tell you is whatever you're good at, if you can get 60,000 people show up every Sunday for 16 weeks and pay you $300 to watch it then god damn right, you want to make that much money. But that's not how most of this works. And it's interesting, because you said the same thing. Like you said, social media gives us an awareness that we didn't have before. Have a life that isn't ours. And that's exactly and people can't deal with that, generally speaking, where some people can't,

right. And so and either response to that you're get you're either mentally just comparing by viewing what other people are posting, or you're posting yourself, you know, we talked about that last time, too. What, what is driving that behavior, I think there's just something to be you know, to be aware of, of how much you're you're being influenced by that exposure, and how that's influencing your mindset of either gratitude and acceptance, or woe is me. And grant, you will probably fluctuate between both of those things if you're living with a chronic illness. And that's okay. But I think just having that awareness of how much that is influencing your mindset is the key.

There's nothing wrong with seeing someone's salary and thinking like, Oh, I wish I had that. That's, that's amazing. You don't I mean, but you can't you can't then just then stop living your life because it doesn't exist for you. I saw something online recently. A person who made a movie years ago, that was very, very popular, is making another movie, that sequel or something like that. And people are coming in and they're, you know, complaining and whatever. And I start reading the comments because they're fun. And the one person says, that movie you made all those years ago made me want to make movies. I dropped out of college, never made a movie and it ruined my life. And I was like, Oh my God. I was like he's blaming the guy for making the movie over this. Like, it's so interesting. Like, I'm not kidding. This 20 Five years ago, and this person is still thinking, the movie I saw on the story that I heard about how you made it, you ruined my life. And I was like, Oh, God, like that's, that's a horrible thing to have to live with, if that's what he really thinks,

you know? Right? That's yeah, his narrative. Yeah, really, really

interesting. But anyway, the last thing that I have on the list here, I really don't understand a whole lot. It just felt like it fit. And if I'm wrong, you'll stop me. And but I can't in any way. Explain it. So if you can't, we're in trouble. But myth of choice.

Yes, yeah, the myth of choice. The another choice myth, however you want to say it the I think the grass is always greener can be another easy way to kind of explain this, you know, terms that when you're faced with a hardship, oftentimes our mind will tell us well, choosing this other alternative is going to be easier than the hardship that you're facing with now, or that you're faced with now. For example, the job is, you know, when that they often will talk about or if you read about, you're in a job, that's hard. And you start looking for other jobs, because either you don't like your boss, or you don't like your task list. And so you think, well, if I move to this other company doing the same job, it's going to be better. And you might initially have that, you so you make the different choice. And you have hope. And you have confidence in that choice, because that's just natural response, and you're doing something new. But then you're going to have another hardship, and then you kind of, and you might end in a in a more challenging position, because you thought, Oh, I thought this was going to be easier or better. And then you're going to have regret for leaving your job because maybe there were other positive things at your past job that were better than this new job. So anyway, that and then you kind of will cycle through that. I think there are other examples of I liked the one that I just recently read about of when you're at a stoplight, and your Google Maps is telling you to go one way. And you think, Well, I'm gonna go the backgrounds way. And I'm gonna get there faster. Like the unknown, you think is often the better alternative. And so that's the mess, the myth of the other choice, because then maybe you take it even Google Maps has all these algorithms and they're saying stay in this, this course, you take a different course because you think it's to be better. And in fact, it's, it's worse.

You're, there's this way that we come home from my, from an extended family member's house, and you get to this certain stoplight, you go straight or right. And I always go straight. And my wife always goes right. And we both at like, like so far in two different cars. Right. And so we both completely believe that the one way is the better way. And yeah, we both arrived at the house almost simultaneously, every time. And when it happened, she's like, You spared and I'm like, No, I didn't she's like, Yes, you did. I think it just doesn't matter. But we both like i i Sometimes this is interesting, Erica I sometimes when I'm by myself turn right at that light instead of going straight, because it is not what I want to do. And I don't know why I do that to myself, but I forced myself not to believe that I've made some superior choice at this turn.

Oh, that's like a good exposure in practice to just try. Try new things

I'm doing in my car exposure. So it's, um, I don't know how this relates, it just seems like it does to me. You know, big, big examples are I think this myth of a choice often ruins people's relationships. You know, because, yeah, yeah, you get married, you think everything's gonna be perfect. And that's clearly not going to be what it's going to be. And eventually, you know, something's gonna happen, where it tarnishes, etc. And then you start thinking, like, ah, but that guy I used to date in college, he was better, you know, a man or she was better. I'm gonna go to that one now. And the truth is for me, I mean, my truth is, I believe that your history and the love that you've built and the I don't know, like the unseen on tangible like the tangible but not holdable ideas that you that you you know, end up constructing when you're building a family or a relationship like those are valuable. Like they don't they don't make your spouse pick up dog poop when they walk past that. But you know, Arca do we all know somebody who will just like pretend the dog too. input so that somebody else has to pick it up, right? So, but But So sure, you might go to the girl at the gym, who seems to love you because you know, etc, but ensure she might pick up the poop, but be something else she's not going to do at some point, you're gonna, what are you gonna do? You're gonna go back to your wife and go like, I'm so sorry. Like it's over now your hurt feelings, you know what I mean? Not to say there aren't reasons why relationships should dissolve? I'm clearly not saying that. I just mean that, if you start getting it in your head, that everything's always better, except for the thing you have. That's just a very dangerous way to live.

You know? Yeah. It is, I think, and that's, you know, understanding what is the, if the problem at hand, and oftentimes that does happen in relationships, and I will meet with with clients about that very topic. And understanding is it is it because I have this hope that the next person's gonna be better, shinier, etc? Or is it really is not the right fit relationally. And that, you know, that takes time to kind of unpack. I think, one thing that we might do in, in diabetes, I think when you're trying to make a decision, let's say even just about, I'm trying to bring this back to, you know, the the the other the myth of the other choice, when you're trying to make a decision, whether it's about food, or even, like, you know, technology, that's a big topic that people will I you know, should I do this? Or that, should I use this pump or that pump or this, you know, in there? Or if you're using one is the other one going to be better? I think it's always important to just, what if it's a small decision, pause out, you're looking at, am I going to have this donut? Or am I going to have this banana? Like, pause? And just think through? is, am I making the right call here? Is this the right choice? If it's their bigger decisions, one of you know, the classic strategies ready do during the pro con list for both? I think if you're in a really intense situation, you're really stressed or really angry, it's often easier to say, Well, clearly, using this other product is going to be so much better, or doing this other thing is going to feel better. So I think trying to delay making any major decisions, or even small ones, if you're in a moment of extreme stress, anger, exhaustion, fatigue, because that often will drive your decision. Yeah, it'll

do what you mentioned earlier, like your frustration will allow you to believe that anything different is going to be

better is gonna be better. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. No, I was just gonna say, I mean, that's a great example, in diabetes, I was gonna use the one that, you know, listen, nobody has to listen to me. Okay. I'm not. I just said, Listen, you don't have to listen to me, which is hilarious. Poor, poor, poor, poor sentence structure there. But, you know, I'm just saying like, this is just my opinion, right? But leaving your blood sugar 200 all the time so that you don't get low? I don't think that's Oh, yeah, that's not a real choice. That's, that's, you know, first of all, I think it's a little, little confirmation bias, because it just hasn't, you know, I've never gotten low when I leave my blood sugar 200. And so this is obviously not going to lead to a low, it's not true, eventually, you're gonna get people get low when they use insulin, it's just happens. But the idea of it's like, to me, that's the smoking argument from earlier, right. Like, I can smoke as much as I want. It's not going to kill me. My Dad, I've told you this before my father would come back from like his physicals doctor says he can't even tell I smoke. And then you know, it killed him. congestive heart failure, which was directly related to his smoking. So you know, you can't leave your blood sugar 200 all the time and just go, Well, I'm okay today. So this is a good choice, because it won't, because I don't know how many people I gotta bring on here for you to listen to who you know, make that decision. And then 10 years later are on here saying I really wish I wouldn't have done that. And you know, because now here, here, all the real world, things that are happening to me that my magical thinking isn't going to take care of that I can't ignore. And that that medicine, at this time in history can't make go away anymore. Like you. Sometimes you give things away, you can't get them back. I think it's my point.

Yes, I think that you kind of just typed in all the kind of maybe three topics that we've been talking about with if I let I know the science and data tells me I shouldn't ride at 202 50 all day, every day for years on end. But yet I feel comfortable there or you've learned how to feel comfortable but you might have had experience of feeling that dissonance or just comfort. So in response to that you're you're building a new belief system is Well, I'm okay here, I'm either not going to have complications, and I'm preventing myself from going low or having a seizure. So you've kind of changed your belief system in response to that number and living there. Right. And that's that is hard.

I'm going to tell you something everyone listening Eric just said something a minute ago made my whole day. It's gonna probably stick with me through the weekend because I like other people I need I need love. I did do a perfect job of putting that all together just

you did Scott.

Literally pleased with myself like you guys. Here's why can I can I pull the curtain back for a second? Sure. I have you for an hour, one time right before you go get your knee surgery. Yeah. And I think what's going to help people who listen to the podcast, and then with no psychological like psychology, I didn't go to college people know psychology background. I'm basically a moron. Dude, anemia, like all I have with me is my life experience. I mean, honestly, if you saw me try to do, I'm gonna say algebra, you probably would never talk to me again. Because you would like I don't want people to know, I know. I don't have any background in this is what I'm saying. All I have is my lived experience. And the experience I have talking to people and watching people online, manage their diabetes, their health issues, their relationships, that kind of stuff. And I know that people's brains lied, we lied to them. It's a weird way to say it. But I went online, and I was like, okay, like, if you think that prior to me setting this up with Erica, I could have defined cognitive dissonance. You're wrong. I know, the I, I know the idea. I recognize it as a human trait. But I don't know what it means. And then I thought, Okay, well, there, that idea definitely fits with the concept that people think there's this magical thing that happens that they can kind of control the world, those definitely go together. And then I needed a third thing to bring it together. And it's like, oh, the myth of choice, which is not something I know about it, you know, I just understood that. That's how people think. And then luckily, somebody who was much smarter than me had already talked about it in the world. And it has an I knew you would know about it. And that's all i That's all I knew when I brought those three ideas together. I wish I wish I was lying, but I put about 20 minutes worth of effort into this, then I let you tell me what you know. And then I just tried to mirror back what I've experienced and, and in the end people, you know, you got to take good care of yourself. And if you can't, if you definitely can't find a way through it, go find somebody that can help you with it. And you know, if anxiety is your is your problem. I don't think it matters if it's because the world's changing, or because whatever, it doesn't matter, people who are crippled by anxiety that is very real. And you're likely going to need help with that part. But all these other things are swirling around you and in my heart, I want you to make the decision. I want your life to go the way it you know, the ways as fair as possible for you, and the way that makes you the most comfortable and happy and productive. And I think it's important to know that your your thoughts are letting you down sometimes. And there's conscious decisions you can make, like making a right turn instead of going straight. And goddamnit.

Be kind and be kind to yourself in the midst of it all.

Yes. So you're saying when I pull into the into the driveway before my wife, I should not give her the finger as I'm pulling.

Yes, that's what I'm saying you should not do that.

Anything you want to add to this because I'm, again, a neophyte. I don't know what I'm talking about.

No, I think that was a great a great wrap up in summary, I think, you know, these are big terms. And if there's still confusing there are lots of resources and talks and topics on all of them. But basically it is it's being aware of your thought patterns and and how they're influencing your actions is really kind of summing it up. And that's really the first place to go but also being aware of that self talk is key. Good. How are you talking to yourself? Yeah, so thank

you, of course and Erica, of course if you live in California, here's the big or you want to say it here we'll say it somewhere else too. But you know, our kids been doing you know, therapy for a long time, but she did it. Was it part time or just not your full?

It was It was part time for for many many years. As I also worked as a school counselor and psychotherapist

but expanding those children and your

eye Yes, I am in the process this fall transitioning to full time private practice, which I'm really excited about. Excellent.

So if you If you live in California, Erica forsyth.com That's right.

Thank you so much. And

if you don't live in California, go find your own. Erica. I found her. You could find yours.

Yes, yes.

Well, thank you so much for doing this with me.

You're welcome. Thank you of course.

First, I'd like to thank Erica Forsythe remind you go to Erica forsythe.com. And let you know that as soon as Eric has knee is all mended up and she's feeling better record an entire series, a Pro Tip series for mental health. A huge thank you to one of today's sponsors, G voc glucagon, find out more about Chivo Capo pen at G Vogue glucagon.com forward slash juicebox you spell that GVOKEGL You see ag o n.com forward slash juicebox. I'd also like to thank us med for sponsoring this episode of The Juicebox Podcast and remind you to go to us med.com forward slash juicebox get better service and better care with us med You can also call 888-721-1514 If you're enjoying the podcast please share it with someone else who you think might also enjoy it. And don't forget to subscribe in the app you're listening in. Some apps want you to subscribe some say to follow subscriber follow it means the same thing, go into that audio app and hit subscribe. Doing that will help me it will make the show more visible in other people's searches and it will give you access to all the new content as soon as it's available. Thank you so much for listening. I'll be back very soon with another episode of The Juicebox Podcast.

Hello friends, and welcome to episode 834 of the Juicebox Podcast guess what everybody Erica Forsythe is back. That's right, your favorite licensed marriage and family therapist is here again today. Today I start the conversation off with Erica, by asking her to talk about a sentence that I hear spoken very frequently. People love to say, I don't let diabetes get in my way. I'm not letting diabetes slow me down. I hear it all the time. And I hear it two different ways when people say it to me, and Eric and I talk through it. And then at some point, we talk about how to change things. And then it just goes down a slippery slope of my of my internal workings of my mind. So that'll be fun, you can sit in on a therapy session with me at the end. While you're listening. Please remember that nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise. Please Always consult a physician before making any changes to your health care plan, or becoming bold with insulin. If you like Erica, and you'd like to hire her, and you live in California, Utah, Oregon, or Florida, she's at Erica forsyth.com. This episode of The Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by touched by type one, head now, two touched by type one.org. And also find them on Facebook and Instagram. When you get to these locations, you're going to find an organization doing an immense amount of good for people living with type one diabetes, go see what they're all about. Touched by type one.org. The podcast is also sponsored today by my favorite blood glucose meter, that Contour Next One, and you're gonna find out way more about the Contour Next One than you ever thought possible. At contour next one.com forward slash juicebox. Okay, all right, so we're recording. Erica, before we get started, I have a growing list of things I'd like to talk to you about. And I thought maybe it would be interesting to just let you pick on the day. Okay, all right. Sounds good. Okay, so here's what I have already. You and I have already talked about. I don't know if you know this. But when I think of things, I go into this little note and I put like ideas. And so like I put it in magical thinking one day, and you and I did an episode about that mom guilt. We did that one. But since then I've put in Maslow's pyramid. Do you know that? Yeah. Okay. I put in scarcity mindset. I put I put in charitable interpretations. I put in what the principle of charity and critical thinking is. Sorry, this jumps all over the place, how to support how to support suicidal people. I want to talk about the statement that people make that says I don't let diabetes slow me down. I want to talk about how people interact with each other online. I want to talk about rebellion as like a human decision. Like what happens to a person's mind when they see like, my mom wants me to do this. So I'm going to do the opposite. I'm fascinated by that. And just life expectation, like how does it impact your life? When you paint a picture for yourself? And then it starts to deviate immediately? Because it will I also have on here how to share burdens. Like when you have a burden, how do you learn to share it with somebody. And then people diagnosed with type one as an adult, how they could find community engaged their partners for support and things like that. So that's my list so far. Do you have a choice for today? Oh,

my goodness. That's an exciting, an extensive list.

We got to keep you busy. You got this.

I know.

I said everybody, Eric about a nice microphone. So we're gonna give her a lot to do.

It's exciting. It's good stuff. Goodness, where do we want to start? Do you are you do you have a leaning? I think I will tell you. Yeah. Have

you started to talk about anything off this list? I'd start getting ramped up and want to talk about it. So it doesn't matter to me. But what's been on my list the longest for you? Maybe we could do it that way. I think I think the statement about not letting diabetes slow me down is really interesting to me.

You I was leaning towards that or how to share like the burden piece I think is a is a topic It comes up quite frequently, particularly with caregivers. So yeah, either one of those,

let's start with the statement, we'll see where it goes, maybe we'll get to two of them today, or maybe the next time you come on, we'll do that. So I, I'm not gonna need any notes for this, I'm not gonna need the internet. This is all just anecdotal for me. So I'll begin by saying that when I first heard somebody say, I don't let diabetes slow me down. I thought, that's amazing. This is a person who's saying, I have this thing, but I do everything I want to do. And it doesn't get in my way, what a what a beautiful statement. And then I started interviewing more and more people. And I started to realize that for some of those people, what that statement means is, even though I have diabetes, what I do is I ignore it, and then I just do whatever I want. And in their mind, they're not letting diabetes get in their way. Does that? Does that resonate with you as a person who has played Pong?

I think I think it could really go both ways. I think there's the, the avoidance kind of omitting ignore it and not let it stop me from doing what I want. And by that, you're maybe you're not actively managing it. Or there is the hyperfocus hyper management, you really, truly can do, quote, whatever you want, eat whatever you want exercise however you want. And you figured it out. And while there is parts of your life that made diabetes interferes with, for the most part, you view view, your narrative of your life is I'm living my life. And I have diabetes, but it doesn't stop me. So I think can go both ways. Right?

Yeah, no. And I think that I think that broadly, and mostly, it's a great mindset, like, absolutely the way to go, like this thing is not going to stop me. But if it's stopping you ignoring it, and just trudging on, it's not the answer. You know, I I interview people every day, just this week, 12 year old, you know, when she's diagnosed, and she said it, she's like, I never let it stop me. I played this many sports in school, and I did all this. And I did that. And then the last 30 minutes of our conversation are about the injection, she's getting in her eyes, and she can't feel her feet. And, you know, like, what she meant was, I just kept going, which is admirable, by the way beyond admirable, honestly. But there's a way to, there's a way to learn about diabetes, and to corral it and work with it, so that you can really go do whatever you want. without it hurting you. While you're it's it doesn't need to be a trade off. And I don't know, like I've never heard. It's the one statement that sticks out in my head. Because no matter which side of this, this scenario, I hear people speak about it. They say it the same exact way. That's the part that fascinates me, I don't let diabetes get in my way. And that can come out of a person's mouth, who was a five to a one C, and knows how to keep their blood sugar's between 70 and 140. All day. And that same proud statement can come out of someone's mouth, who has an 11 a one C for their whole life.

I was just thinking, I wonder what the difference is internally between that sense of kind of healthy pride, and maybe inter and maybe shame, right? Like, the person who is not managing and says, I don't let diabetes get in my way. I'm, I'm guessing there might be some shame, there might be some anger, disappointment I can't deal with process with this means to live with this chronic illness. And so I'm just gonna ignore it. And I'm not going to let it stop me. But I'm still but I'm ignoring it. And I you might feel awful, probably physically, emotionally. Whereas the person who's saying with pride, like I can do this, I imagined they probably feel pretty good about themselves. They've done the work, they figured it out. They have the skill set, they have the tools, they have the availability, you know, to have all the things that you need to manage well. So they're even though maybe it's coming out the same way. I'm guessing that probably internally the narrative is a little different.

Yeah. So one side is is like genuine pride, and just like, wow, I can't believe I've accomplished this. And the other side might be a mask. It might be, I'm being beaten by this thing, but I'm just gonna, I'm gonna go on like, it's not happening. And then there's pride in that I imagined to which and that's not misplaced. You know, like, if you're just like, it almost, it's like you're in a movie, and you get shot. And you're like, you know, some some people are like, Go on without me. I'm gonna lay here and die. And some of the characters are like, I'm gonna do it. They pick themselves up and the dragon the bad leg. And I think I think that's how I think of it sometimes like, you're like you're injured, and you should stop and tend to yourself, and it is brave to just drag your leg on. Like, you know what I mean? Like, but it'd be better if you just stopped like, stop For a second, and figure this thing out so that you can make that statement from that place of pride instead of from a place of, I know I'm being beaten, I'm just going to, I'm just going to be tougher than this. Because eventually you can't be tougher than it at some point. And I think that's one of the problems with type one. Type two as well, honestly, is that you can, you can pretend you're doing okay for a while. Right up until you're not? You know,

that's right. Yeah. That's right. And I think it is, it is actually prevalent. Now, you mentioned type two, it is prevalent in the type two community as well, because you, you have lived a certain way. I mean, there are obviously there are different ages of diagnosis, but for the general population who are diagnosed as adults with type two, it's hard to shift your way of thinking eating lifestyle. And it's really challenging, too. I think of actually the the gentleman you had on with type two, who and it was really hard for him to accept as it is, is there a connection between I'm not gonna let it stop me and acceptance? What is this mean to live with this diagnosis for for type one, type two, that interferes with? How do I take care of myself? Do I want to take care of myself? How do I take care of myself? And if there's all the things, lack of resources, accessibility, support, community, family, all of those things that we need to continue to thrive? Those interfere, you know, with that ability to function and accept it?

I mean, honestly, type one almost, does you a favor by just stopping taking care of yourself. I mean, it really does force you to do something. And then it's that level of understanding that that dictates Is this a five, a six, a seven and eight 910? Like, what is my what is my A one, say? What's my average blood sugar? With type two, you can, can ignore it for a good long time. And it may, you may feel tired, and then of course, get accustomed to feeling tired, and then something else might happen. You get accustomed to it, and it'll hit you, you know, all at once. You know, when it's probably too late, which is the reason why I bring this up because because this is all this talk aside. It's a very human reaction to say, I'm not giving up. It's it's so laudable, you know, it's why we're all here. Probably still. I've joked before that if I was on the Mayflower we'd live somewhere east of the first river we came on. Like, I can't get over that we're done. Let's just make a house right here. But, but other people see that river and they think like, no, most people, we're going to climb over. We're gonna get into a wagon, and go from here to Oregon. Are you kidding? Like, like, as safe as the world is right? Now? If I told you to walk to Oregon, you'd be like, I'm not doing that. I said no, no, the life you that you dream of Erika, it's a 3000 mile. Yeah, you'd be like, Nah, I'm sorry. I'm gonna write where I'm at. It sounds like so that there's something about people it's, it's, it's wonderful, right? But then you put it in this exact situation. And what what starts out as and what is mostly a great trait that will get you through life turns into the thing that's, it's stabbing you in the back and you don't realize it right away? I've never heard one person say it. And not mean it. If that makes sense. I don't let diabetes slow me down. I don't let diabetes get in my way. Like they always meet it. And so I don't know, like, I'm just so what do you do? If you're listening to this? And you find yourself thinking, I feel like that I feel like nothing stops me. I accomplish everything I want. But is the guy talking? He's onto something my A once he's like 8.5? Like, how do you shift that mindset to like put that that energy that desire to like triumph? Like how do you put it into the place where where you might actually figure out how to take care of yourself better?

I think the answer depends on from which lens, you know who the age is the caregiver? Is it the teenager? Often times I think if you're a teen and thinking that you have this sense of you know, they don't often don't feel like they're invincible. It's hard to think forward, you know, complications. And you're, you're kind of in the moment. And so for a teenager, it's hard. It's hard to get them to that place of understanding of how to take care of yourself. I think there's I would go underneath what what is interfering with that process of acceptance of understanding that you know what, I really do need to take care of myself. And oftentimes, I think it is maybe there isn't a connection to a Mmm, did you process the diagnosis? Are you still carrying anger, unresolved anger? Are you trying to figure out your identity as a teenager? In spite of but also connected to your diabetes? And oftentimes, I think when that I know, we I keep bringing up this acceptance. And I think that's one of the things also on your list of, you know, what does that really mean to accept it? It is a process. But part of that what it means to accept is to integrate it into your life and know that you know, there is you can't live a healthy life, but you can't you can't ignore it.

Do you talk ever about optimism bias?

Yes, I think that's a really good Go ahead. And just really interesting thought

there's, there's part of me that wants to take the list of all the, the biases that humans have, and just lose series about them. And the problem is, I've tried a couple of times, he can never find somebody who really is like, I could really dig in on this one. You know what I mean? Like, because I want to have that conversation, but an optimism bias, just as it's defined, a cognitive bias that causes someone to believe that they themselves are less likely to experience a negative event. It is also known as an unrealistic optimism, optimism or CU, comparative optimism, optimism bias is common. Throughout people it's saying doesn't matter your nationality or ethnicity or age, that it's a common feeling. And it's what I'm talking about. It's that it's, it's me watching my father smoke three packs of cigarettes a day, and him saying, like, it's not getting me and then that's what kills him. You know, because right up until it did, he's like, I went to the doctor doctor said, I always used to feel angry about this doctor told me he can't even tell him a smoker. And I used to think he can't smell that you smell like for ashtrays rubbed on a hot days foot. Like you don't I mean, like we're right, but maybe the gut, maybe the doctor never said that. But my dad would come home and say that, like they say they can't even tell. And eventually, you know, he had congestive heart failure and he died. And so. But why is that? Like, why do we see the old lady on the news? Who lived to 100. And in our minds, we're all like, that'll be me. She meanwhile, it's so rare. They got to put her on the news. I don't know why I just don't I don't understand why. like common sense, doesn't take over and say to you, I'm not going to be that person. I don't know if I've shared this with you. But as my mom had health issues as she's gotten older over the last couple of years, I went to my wife earnestly, and I said, I'm 51. And I said, I am going to begin treating the next 15 years like they are the last 15 years I have. I was like no and then everybody right away said, Oh no, no, you're gonna Oh my God, I didn't say I was gonna die when I was 16. Right? I said, I'm gonna treat the next 15 years like they're the last ones. Because the last six years of my mom's life have not been she hasn't been at the waterpark. You know what I mean? Like, like, but we all feel that way. We're like, Oh, if I lived at in your mind, you imagine that on your 80th day when you drop dead? You're in the backyard playing croquette with a with a with a brandy. You know, I'll just hit a couple balls. Oh, and then over. Doesn't it doesn't work that way for everybody. Everybody doesn't get to be the lady on the news. And I don't know how that thinking isn't obvious and how it doesn't translate to health? Because that's all I think about when I think about my kids health. You know, like, this is it. We need to figure this out now because laters too late. And damage is happening. Like I don't know. I don't know, maybe there's something wrong with me. But that's

no, I think that's because you're you're you're a realist, but you're also have an optimistic, hopeful outlook. In life. You're not a you're not a pessimist. You're not, you know, doom and gloom. But I think you're able to apply, you have that sense of hope. And you want to give your children a long, healthy life. And you're able to apply that and say, okay, but we need to be realistic with what we need to do in order to have as long of a life as possible. And I think we all have a sense of you know, optimism and hope that we are going to live a healthy long life. But what you're what we're trying to figure out is what is the difference between those who have that hope, but ignore reality, versus those who have that hope and couldn't attend to like your current immediate needs? Yeah. Right. Like we're trying to differentiate between those two. And I think the bias piece, you know, we all have certain biases and distortions that we believe. And part of you know, becoming attuned to your, your way of thinking and acting and living in your behaviors is understanding some of those, you know, biases and distortions.

So is that done in therapy?

Well, yes, it can be done. We can just talk

somebody into right now like, like, throwing a little cold water in their face and say, I'm probably not going to be okay. 30 years from now with my nine a one say?

Well, yes, I think I, as you know, I definitely appreciate the value of cognitive behavioral therapy. And it's understanding how our thoughts affect how we feel, which obviously impact what we do. And that can go it's the cognitive triangle, we can start with our actions which impact how we feel which impact how we think about ourselves, it can go at any which way. And so part of the initial work that I do with a lot of my clients is understanding what are those lies is the easiest way to call them that we believe about ourselves, or about our worlds that impact what we do and how we feel. And then and then we want to break down those that those lies or distortions and replace them with truths. Yeah, so that is something you can do yes, in therapy.

I'm thinking of the things that I I know aren't true about myself that I, I lie to myself about as you were saying that I was like, Oh, I have some like,

like, what do you want to share? I

do today, I'm going to tell you about the Contour. Next One blood glucose meter. If you're using insulin, you need a great accurate meter, you need the Contour. Next One, I'm gonna go to the website, just type here. Contour next one.com forward slash juicebox. My voice just does that when I look forward, like anyway, when you get there, you're gonna see a lot of information. Big Buy Now button, where if you click on it, I'll click on it now. It takes you to a number of places online where you can get the contour and the test strips walmart.com, Amazon, Walgreens CVS pharmacy, Meijer, Kroger, target Rite Aid. Here's the thing. Why would you do that? Why would you just like continue to do your meter stuff the way you usually do? Because the Contour Next One may be cheaper in cash out of your pocket, then through your insurance. This is something worth checking into. Now why would you go to that trouble? Because you say to me, Scott already have a meter, I don't care. But you should care because the Contour Next One is super easy to use, and incredibly accurate. And those were important things important, important important. They are so important that I am here to tell you about it over and over and over again. So that you will go to contour next one.com Ford slash juice box and get yourself a great meter that has Second Chance test strips, so that if you don't get quite enough blood the first time, no big deal right back and you're doing it again, without wasting the strip or ruining the test accuracy, contour next.com forward slash juicebox get the meter that my daughter has been using for years. The meter that has a super bright light for nighttime viewing, and absolutely easy to read and simple screen and a design that allows you to easily carry it and hold it. This is it. I don't need to tell you more super accurate super easy to use great light. Second Chance test strips might be cheaper in cash and you're paying for insurance. I don't know what else you want. Contour next.com forward slash use Box A links in the show notes. Links at juicebox podcast.com. And I'll throw in here a little extra for good luck. Don't forget touch by type one touch by type one.org and on Facebook and Instagram. Alright, we're gonna get right back to Erica. I think I cry later in this one so bonus

like, what do you want to share?

I definitely think I look taller than I am. The small one, I I've told myself that I carry my weight better than my size. Which is not true. Like that's not like I look at if I looked at myself reasonably, I'd be like, Oh, I should lose 20 pounds. But but I've taught myself that I have broad shoulders, or that like, like that. Like it's okay, because I can carry it up here. And it's visually it's okay. And it runs along the same lines. This one actually happens to be reasonably true. But the mechanism is similar. I look younger than I am. And somehow I'll talk myself into making that think I am younger than I am. But I'm not I just appear younger. If you meet me at first, and I'm and I'm you'll look at me and you'll you know, I mean beyond. He's 35 I could I could pass for 40 Right, right. Yeah, totally. Yeah. And so, and then I start talking and I'm goofy and then people shave off yours for that because they think like an adult wouldn't speak like this that's All lovely, and everything, but my knees still hurts and my back is stiff. And I, you know, I still go outside sometimes to do something and go to lift something up and think, man, you should not pick this up. Right? You know, but I feel I've talked myself into believing I'm younger than I am. That's all and even like, there are times you can. Okay, there are times.

I like pause, do you want to share this?

There are times that I hear things on this podcast, that somebody sharing is a negative that they've learned how to get past for instance, and I'll think, Oh, God, I do that sometimes. Yes, yes. And, and then I can picture where in my life I do it. And then I don't do anything about it. Right. But one of the things that I've, I'm disappointed with myself all the time I fixed last week. So that's exciting. It was, but it always everything else ended with me crying, but hold on a second. Oh, I'm sorry. That's okay. I, I grew up, it's not a person who makes eye contact during conversation. And I recognize that is a younger person that has younger adult, and I ignored it. And I told myself, it's okay, because when you talk to people, you're entertaining the group. You know what I mean? Like you're you're doing because I am, I can be that person in a group where I'm like, you're looking here, and you're looking there. And sometimes you just talk, you know, but I don't look people in the face. And I decided to do something about it. When I recognized one day, it's the silliest thing. But my son used the pacifier for the first couple years of his life. And then when he stopped using it, I had this horrible feeling that I had missed what His face looked like, while he was using it, if this makes sense or not. And I thought, I'm having conversations with people. And I'm not looking at them. I'm like, not seeing their face. And so I started to more constructively I say to myself, like, you have to look people in the eye. And in the beginning, it was hard. Like, I don't know, I bet Oh, my God. And then I got past that. I'm like, Okay, it's not trouble for me to look you in the face anymore. And, and that's the thing that I do now. So now, fast forward, my son gets his first real job. And we have to take him far away, to set him up for his first real job. And I get there with him on a Wednesday, and I'm going to leave on a Saturday, and we're very busy. We're buying furniture and like, getting his cable turned on and getting food and buying a pots and pans like everything. Yeah, all the adulting things. Yes, he had nothing, you know, plus, he's not sure he's gonna be there for very long. So we're trying not to, like, overload him with stuff, you know, like, you don't need seven pans like, here's a couple I think you'll be okay with. And as this time is going on, and we're spending it together, I keep thinking, I'm gonna leave in a couple of days, I'm gonna leave in four days, I'm gonna leave in three days. I'm upset. I don't want him to be upset. So I'm not going to tell him I'm upset. And finally, I thought that's not right. Like, that's not right. He needs to know how upset I am that I'm leaving him here. You know, so I said to him, I want you to know that over the next couple of days, you are going to look up at me. And it's going to seemingly be out of nowhere. And I'm going to be crying. And I was like, and it's not because I'm sad. It's this is such a great opportunity for you, you're going to do great at this. I'm not worried about you. It's nothing like that. I just and I said I could tell you that I'm going to miss you, which would be true. It was like But the core thing here and I second. It's me. I don't want to leave you here. And I think it's because my dad left me. I said I think that's why this is I feel like I'm abandoning you here. And I'm like, I know I'm not. I'm like you're going to be great. But I don't want to stand here swallowing all that. And us that just have these awkward moments together. Because you're looking at me and I'm thinking, oh my god, what are you doing? Take him home. Don't leave him here. Like don't leave him here the way somebody left you like don't do that. Plus, I'm adopted. So technically, I've been abandoned twice. So so I'm like, I'm sitting there having that thought. I'm like, I'm gonna share this with him instead. And my son is like my wife. Like they have the Irish thing going, like, you know what I mean? Like the palace is on fire. Dead bodies are falling all around you and they're like, this is gonna be fine. Yeah, doesn't matter. Let's not show like anything. But I could look at him sometimes. And he looked like he was five in his face because he was worried not about me, by the way about this whole thing. Right? And so I'm like, I'm like We're adults. And I don't want to, I don't want there to be any confusion here. I don't want him to think my dad's mad or sad or scared that I say, I'm gonna suck at this or something, I'm just gonna let them know why I might be acting strangely. So I did that. And then, and he gave me a nice hug. And we sat together for a minute. And then when I went to leave, I cried. Yeah. And he was uncomfortable. And I'm like, I'm sorry, I'll be okay. And then if you I mean, to finish this story out, like I got in the car, I had to drive away. And I screamed a couple of times, like, in a very, like, very, like, not focused primal way, I had to stop myself from like, not living outside of his door for the rest of my life, I guess. And, and I, I kept going. And I just, I did the same thing. This is gonna sound so strange, that I learned in Dr. Sardos book about back pain. I just told myself it was going to be okay. That the things that I was worried about, they weren't real. I reminded myself about the good situation he was in, and that this was going to be okay. But I'll tell you that I had to drive from his house to my daughter's, which is a different story. College. So I was in the car for three hours by myself. And about 45 minutes into it, I thought, I need to call somebody who loves me. And I called my brother and my brother and I chatted about this a little bit, and then something else, because I was making myself upset. And and you know what I mean? So anyway, what are you talking about that, but

no, but that's such a beautiful gift you gave your son, and we'll just being authentic with how you feel. I think often as parents and connecting us to diabetes in the government, we feel like many caregivers will share with me that they can't, they feel like they don't want to cry in front of their child, they don't want to make it feel like worse than it is. But I think that's okay, it gives them permission to be upset or cry. So I think you gave him the gift of like being authentic with how you're feeling in the moment. And then you, you worked your way through interrupting that those lies of that narrative that you had experienced with your father. And you were breaking that cycle. And also, replacing it with truth that it is going to be okay, this is not the lie that you are that you know, your brain is like flirting with, like, you know, this is not the truth. The truth is you love him, you've set him up for success, you're not abandoning him, and you reminded yourself of all those truths. And, and then you did something and it helps you feel better reach out to a connected, you know, to feel connected with a loved one. So you worked yourself through some of those techniques all by yourself, you did reality checking and all those things. Well, they

a couple of them were just out of like, like sheer, like necessity. You're right, because as I was like you like when my wife and I didn't get pregnant on the first time on purpose. And so it was a shock. We'd been married for a couple of years, we were talking about having kids, but we did not purposely get pregnant with call. And then in the months leading up to her having the baby. We started talking about daycare, and I was the one that said I don't think I can leave the kid in daycare, it feels like it feels like we I told her back then we were so young, I said it feels like we bought a puppy to put it in the kennel. Like that's what it felt like to me. And I was like, and I was like so I said to my wife, like you should stay home with the baby. She laughed at me because I had no prospects for any kind of reasonable work. And she was doing pretty well. And then she said, you know, you should do what I think you'd be a good stay at home dad. So there's something I don't care what anybody says like I had to make a number of, of adjustments and how I was raised and how I grew up. The first one was in the first year he was alive. I realized that my wife would be doing things almost naturally, that I didn't know to do, and that I had to sort of give myself over to this if he was going to be served in a way that he needed, right. And plus I was I was cheating myself. Because I was just caregiving. And my wife was being cheated because she wasn't having this connection with my son. I was like, Well, I'm gonna at least honor all of this if I'm gonna do this. And that was kind of my first leap. But then when you do that, and you just give yourself over to it. When he like turn when you go from being a guy who was like raised to like, you know, go kill something and find a pretty girl, get her to have sex with you and then buy a car, like you know what I mean? Like go dominate things and like when you're raised like that, you know, being at home with a baby day to day. I don't know if anybody's ever done it, but it's a lot and it's monotonous and you have to find joy in it. You have to find joy and things that you can't imagine there's joy in at some point and And that just bonds you together with that kid in a way that I'm standing there now thinking, I know, he's been out of college for seven months, he needs to get the hell out of here. Like he was starting to get stir crazy, you know? And all this is good for him. And all I could think was, I think I could afford for him to live here longer. Like, why would it matter if he stayed here? Like you because the house is very still without the kids. It's a weird feeling. It's not good. And, and my wife and I seem to be doing okay with it. But as I was in his apartment, I was like, why don't I just tell him like, he doesn't want to do this. So he doesn't really want to be an adult like I could. I could throw some money around, I'll take another advertiser, and I'll keep them in my house forever, you know what I mean? Or something like that. And, and not to say that out loud was hard. But anyway, we were talking about how to break things that you don't want to do. Yeah, sorry. That's all. Yes, I'm sorry.

No, it's a good. I think you modeled a lot through all that you shared?

Does any of that help people who are lying to themselves about why they're okay with their current situation? I hope it does.

I. Well, I think you you model that, you know, that? Is it? Is it healthy to, to listen to the lie? No, no. And to you, you have done the work, you know, I don't know if you've been in therapy, or you've done it yourself, or you've read books, but you are, you are learning and applying how to interrupt those lies. And that that pattern thinking that you were exposed to as a child

in the in the car and the drive. Before I call my brother. It was fascinating. By the way, I mean, I did a tiny bit of therapy for like a year when I was in my 20s. Other than that I haven't read, I'm embarrassed about how few books I've read. As a matter of fact, once when I was on a book tour for my book, my publisher said stop telling people you don't read. But but I'm in the car, and I'm like, It's okay. And I'm calm, and I'm okay. And then in no time at all. If he I just if I were to just think of him, then it burns like up through your chest through your neck into your head. And it's a it's not a voice like a voice in your head. But you start thinking like, no, that's not right. I'm leaving him there. At one point i i solidly imagined that I had just left him in a box. You know what I mean? Like, I just I driven to another state put my son in a box and I left is how it kind of felt to me. And, and then I'm like, okay, don't think that and don't think that for your own sanity, and for and for his happiness. Because he this is the game, right? Like, you make a baby, you put it in a situation and then you don't go, yeah, it's unfair. To me, my wife, and I, these little bastards have abandoned us again, it's fine. But um, but it's the right thing, you know. And so I don't know, like I did later. It's because of this podcast, because it's talking to so many people keep kind of running through ideas in your head. And I thought to myself, there were a number of times in that car, that there was a dark path in front of me that if I didn't avoid it, I could see how people run down them and get lost. Do you know what I mean? And then that made me feel badly for people who, who get drawn down those paths. I felt lucky to not have that happen to me, honestly.

So yeah, you were able to interrupt the that spiral, right? The spiral, thinking of that life feels like it's over, it's not worth living. And you were able to find something within yourself like, okay, that now's the time, I need to reach out to somebody, and that's hard for people to do. Yeah, it's when they're, when they're really in that low place of that really low depressed thinking, and they, you know, kind of spiraled down to do what you did. It can be really challenging for people. And you also, it kind of feels like you know, grounding, you grounded yourself to the present moment. Whether you're in the car, you're going up to paying attention to what you're doing. And that's something that people can do when they're in the middle of that spiral. And feeling like there's no hope to ground yourself to the present. Maybe it's looking at three, there's nothing all sorts of techniques. You can Google them for grounding techniques. But looking at you're looking at three things that you can see two things that you can touch one thing that you can hear it there, it doesn't really matter which way you go, but like bringing yourself to the present moment to interrupt that spiral can be helpful.

I'll tell you where it helped the next day so to give a little other context, through odd circumstances, my son had to be in a part of, I think I'm supposed to say Arden's in Chicago and college. She's she choked ones out of the pocket. She's like, if people are just telling him in Chicago, she's not. Okay. So basically, my son needed to be across the country, in the same state that my daughter was in, but three and a half hours from each other in this state. And they had to leave on the same day, and they had to start either class or their job on the same day. So I had to, I had to leave him that night to drive the three and a half hours to where my wife was with my daughter so that we could drive home, right. And it's a 14 hour drive home. And so I get to her, she's in a hotel with my wife. And I'm like, you know, I don't know, when I get there. Maybe midnight because I kept hanging on. I was supposed to go have dinner with my daughter, and I just, I couldn't leave my son. And I was like, I can't I can't I texted Kelly, I'm like, I can't make myself leave. You know, like, I'm trying, you know, and so I missed dinner, which then I felt bad about that. And but I'm sure they all sat around and joke that dad's crying right now he can't come to dinner, which would have been right. And so I get, I get to the, to the hotel, my wife's already in bed, it's late. And I lay down. And, and she's like, are you okay? And I'm like, I did the wrong thing. Like, I'm like, I just I was like, I did the wrong thing. And then I get really emotional. Like, I'm, it's, I come in and I'm okay with it now, and I'm still upset right now. Right? Like, so. I'm like I did, she's like, No, you did. And I was like, No, I did, I left in there. That was like, I was like, you know, like, I shouldn't have done and, and so I got through that. Okay. And then the reason I'm sharing that with us, because the next day when I said goodbye to Arden after lunch, she's like, it's okay, if you want to cry. I'm like, I'm okay. Like, and she did. She was like, what? Were the tears, like, when you're the guy that cries lets me know, I'm gonna be missed. Like, when is this happening? Mom's over there, like an Irish statue, like getting ready to go. Like, like, you know, where are you? And I just said, I told her, I was like, she's like, you're gonna cry. I'm like, I'm not like, this is a good spot for you. I'm like, It's okay. You know, and I'm like, I'm really upset that I'm not gonna see you, but I don't think I'm gonna cry. And she was like, All right, like, seen her like, she was like, a little let down. She's like me. So she was, I don't know, she was joking with me. And I got a little teary. And I said, I am really going to miss you. And, you know, we'll be back to visit in a few months. And I left and we got out in the hallway. And Kelly's like, You didn't cry. And I was like, I think I figured it out last night, you know. So anyway, I don't know why I'm I just really to bring this back around. If you are saying I don't let diabetes slow me down. Because your variability is good, and you don't get low, when you're out playing soccer, or you figured out how to eat, I don't know, cheese fries without spiking for three hours, then then diabetes isn't slowing you down. And that's amazing. But if you were one of the people that I've spoken to who said diabetes isn't slowing me down. And there's a lot more to that sentence that you're not sharing, I hope that you can find a way to push through that stuff and, and get to a place where you really are, you know, it's a word people dance around all the time. And I don't understand why they do. People try not to say control around diabetes, but I mean, I'd like for you to get into a better decision making tree so that you have outcomes, you know what I mean? That are more reliable?

Yes, well, I I appreciate your vulnerability and sharing that your story with your precious children. I think the the mindset of diabetes isn't going to stop me that can also be like a family culture mindset, that maybe as expressed at diagnosis, because they want to instill hope that this you know, you can still play the sports and you can still do all the things that you can eat the cake, and you can get married and have babies if you're, you know, want to and can. I think that that mindset, it can be healthy, but it also can prevent the space for the emotional processing, which, you know, you die diabetes is not going to stop me but Batang I'm really sad and angry. Why did I get this? And if there's no space for that expression of frustration, then maybe you just adopt the diabetes isn't going to stop me I can't I can't let it stop me. And but I still have all these other feelings. And I don't really know how to control it. Yeah. So I think what start off maybe as a really positive, hopeful mindset of your family system, it can maybe wreak havoc on how you process it as a child or teen or young adult or a grown adult. And interfere with Yeah, how to actually manage control, that your sugars,

I think it also matters as you're talking like it. In my mind, I'm imagining it matters who you are to me, because there are certain people who hear that, and they were always going to be the people, it wasn't going to get in the way off, right. Like, there were certain people who were just going to be like, didn't matter what happened to them, they were going to like pop out of it, you know, right, with a 2% body fat with a shine on them. look amazing. This is going my way. Like they're just there's some people who just that works for them. I wonder if I wonder if it's not a blanket statement that's given at the beginning. And if you don't know that when it's happening, like what happens when someone says, Don't worry, this isn't going to get in your way, when you know about yourself, you are the kind of person who falls down rabbit holes and things get in your way, then it just probably feels like a lie. It probably feels empty. Like when like when my wife sometimes like when my son was looking for a job, anything he applied for she'd like, you'd be good at that. And she's like, Mom, I have not said one thing yet that you were like, no, don't do that. You know, she's like, you're my mom, this is what you're gonna say. My wife later said to me later, yeah, my wife later said to me, there was something he applied for. I was like, Oh, that would not be good for him. But but she didn't. She didn't tell him right. But I wonder like, we are who we are. And a platitude, which is really what this is. Right? Don't worry. Plenty of people. First let's list some famous people. We know Westside who have type one diabetes, you didn't know that this guy had it and Bobby Clark, for the flyers like, Wait, you're bringing up 70s hockey, like, okay, you know, like, um, it didn't stop him and blah, blah, blah. And, and I think that's meant that way. But I think some people hear that now that I've spoken to more people have more of a depressed mindset, they're probably like, they probably hear that and think, oh, it's gonna get me, you know, like, I'm not going to be the one. And then the person who gives you the platitude is like, Oh, I did my job, I told him, it's not going to stop them. And then the people who aren't stopped by it, we're never going to be stopped by it to begin with. It's like me taking credit for being able to work through this complicated thing that might have fell somebody else like I can't take credit for that's just how my brain works. Like, my easily my brain could work a different way. And I could have driven my car into a tree, you know, like, and just been like, Everything's over. So Erica, every time we get down to these conversations, I realize there's no way

sorry. No, it's it's it's complicated, right? It's it's your mindset. It's your family upbringing, your culture, you're up? I know, we've talked about this a lot about like, you know, what is it for your resilience? And what does that actually mean? How is that nature versus nurture all of those things? But I think yeah, being mindful of is it a platitude, and how is that landing for whoever you're sharing that with? is really important to remember? Yeah,

I mean, if you're a health care provider, or you're the parent, or a loved one of somebody who has been diagnosed that you can't just run around being like, don't worry. And there are also people who you can't pile on them, like, Oh, my God, there's a lot to worry about here, like, equally as bad for that person. And who's who, in that scenario, and by the way, most people most of y'all listening, you don't even know who you are, in that scenario you think you do. But you're often not the person you think you are. You know, like sometimes it's you think, Oh, I can handle this. But I mean, I've talked to plenty of people who get caught up in almost like OCD, like rituals about keeping their kids safe. And, you know, they say things that are, I mean, one of the things we'll talk about in another episode is how, like, you see online, somebody says something, and then they get attacked. And if you really look at it, you realize the person attacking them is trying to quell a fear in their own mind. And like, See, you're, you know, you're not always who you think you are. I'm not who I think I am. You know, like, so. It's interesting. It's we're

all Yeah, we're all on a journey of becoming more self aware. But just to be aware, that you're not self aware is the first step. Perhaps.

This is completely inappropriate. So I won't say that. Well, now I'm going to say because I thought I used it when I was younger. And somebody would be like, what's with that person? I'd say, Listen, crazy. People don't know they're crazy. You got to cut them a break. You know, and now I've come to realize like, none of us really know ourselves that well. And, you know, it's just, you're trying to figure it out as you go like when it hit Me, I was like, Oh, I'm upset because I feel abandoned. I was like, that's why I don't want to do to my son the worst thing that's ever happened to me, even though that is not what's happening right now. It was, you know, fascinating. So But that's so

profound that you were able to make that connection. I am feeling this way because I was treated this way. But this is not what's happening now. I mean, that those two sentences, I don't know how you got there. But that's, that's pretty profound and hard to do. For many people.

Well, it was self preservation because I thought my heart was going to explode. And I, and I don't, I'm not prone to like panic attacks. So I wasn't there was going to be no outlet for it. Like, I felt like I was going to explode. You know, so it's, it's just, I don't know, like, I just thought like, I've got to figure out what this is. Or I'm gonna, like, I felt like I was gonna die. Like I like there's I know, I wasn't going to but it felt like that.

Well, that's what people say, who feel like they're having a panic attack is that they feel like they're going to die, then truly, they believe it and they feel it. Yeah, I

didn't get to that part. I was just like, I was like, I've got to like figure this out. Like I, I did my best to step out of myself.

Had you had well, I was gonna ask more questions about that. But I was gonna ask, have you had those connections, those thoughts before? Like, this is why I feel this way because of abandonment.

No, that was the first time that was,

yeah. Oh, wow. I

was like, Oh, this is because my dad left. And I was like, okay, like, and they I mean, the adopted thing is like, I joke about it a lot here. I really don't think about whatever. But if I start thinking about my dad leaving, it's not lost on me that he's the second father that that apparently was okay with being like, Hilliard. And because that is, and then I look back on leaving my son at college. And maybe I'm lying. The first time I left my son at college. I found myself wondering how my dad could have left me. Like, it didn't I didn't put it together. Yeah, I asked the question of myself. Like, if this is what it felt like to leave my son somewhere safe. That was good for him. How could my dad have left but I quickly transitioned into He must really not care about me. Like, because if he felt this way, how could he have gone? And done it? Yeah, right. Right. And so but I never got past that. And that was four years ago. So this was the first time I've thought about it since then. And it was because it was more. It's finite. Like for all of you have young kids, like the college thing hurts, but then they come back like a bunch of times a year. And or they'll play a sport or you'll go there or something like that, you actually end up seeing each other more frequently than you think as long as it's not like great distance away. But this thing, I thought, like, he could be good at this. They could offer him a different position. He might never come back here. Like and like, he might never, like he might never live in my house again. And I know some people are like, I don't know how everybody feels about their kids. I like my children. Like, you know what I mean? Like, I like them being here, they bring something to the conversation. It makes me I'm gonna tell you one more thing. So the other night, I cook for people. I don't know what that says about me. I don't love food myself. But I like cooking for other people. And I make cookies every once in a while. And sometimes nobody even eats them. And I don't care. I love making them for people. Like I see like my kid pill cookie out. I'm like, This is great. Like, you know, it feels good. So we have these boxes of and when your kids leave, they always forget something. So we have the like forgotten boxes that have to be ups to people. And I said to my wife, I'm like, I'm going to make some cookies, and I'm going to put them in the boxes. My son stuff, my daughter stuff. And my son's girlfriend who left the hair straightener here apparently is my job to send to her. But I'm like, I'm gonna give her some cookies to write. So. So the other night, I got my work done. And I thought I'm going to make the cookies now. And I made them and as I was halfway through it, I felt bereft. And my wife's like, are you okay? And I just go, it doesn't feel the same. And she's like, what? And I was like, making the cookies doesn't feel the same. And I was like, I don't know why it's hollow. And I'm, I'm so annoyed. I just want to throw them away. was like I don't care that I'm sending them to them. I don't care that they're going to get them I don't care if the like them. Like there. I couldn't there's one for you. I can't figure that one out yet. Like I'll get to it, but it felt weird. And I didn't like it is the best thing I can tell you. So anyway, he

feels that feels like growing up. It's grief you're grieving. You know, I stay horrible. Yes. Painful. I

did eat the cookie slider just so you know. I sent them some but I was like, right, but a couple. Anyway, do you think people listen to this and think wow, Scott's found a way to trick this woman into giving him free therapy?

I don't know. I haven't had you sign a consent form?

I have not. Did this conversation do justice to the the idea of that I brought up in the beginning. I don't know, what was the idea? I don't want diabetes slow me down.

I'm getting. Yeah, God. Gosh, I mean, perhaps we probably could even do a part b i feel like dissecting it further if we wanted, but I think we it was a good conversation. Yeah,

I just I listened to, it's gonna feel weird that I shift gears like this so quickly, because I was legitimately just crying a little while ago. But um, I think about this podcast, the way I think about my kids. And the way I think about everything, like I, as I'm bringing up stories about myself, they are absolutely true stories, but in my mind, they're gonna move this conversation and the people listening in a certain direction. So I am a tiny bit Machiavellian about it, which is bizarre, because I'm an idiot, Erica, but this, I'm good at this. I'll get past the fact that I can't add or subtract, but this thing I might be pretty good at. So I just, I really feel very strongly about it. Like, like that statement. Every time someone says it. It's like a bell rings in my head. I was like, somebody needs to do something about that. Like, like, you know, people can't live their whole life celebrating, that they're ignoring their body deteriorating, but at least they went to Burning Man. Like I like the only mean, like, because that is how it feels to me when it said sometimes. And it's not, it doesn't need to be that way. You know, like me, if you're strong enough to ignore high blood sugars, and all the horrible things that come with it to go do the things that you really want to do, then dammit, you're strong enough to figure out how to get your blood sugar lower to begin with, you know, I don't know. And I just feel like, I feel like that there's a conversation somewhere that will spark somebody into doing that thing. And if I've got to lay my soul out so that you people take better care of yourself, then that's what I'm going to do. Because obviously, at the end of this year from now, Eric is going to tell me that I'm making this podcast to take care of myself, because I feel like nobody took care of me or something like heavy like, you know, like on the last day, I'm gonna be leading in the microphone we like. Go on. Alright, that sounds right. Is there in the last minute just to tease it out for the next episode? There there's something about how I grew up that leads me to want to help other people, right?

Oh, absolutely. Yeah, you have a helper helper mentality. Yeah. You want to pay it forward in a way that maybe you didn't receive as a child? I would nothing wrong with that. No, I

don't know. I think I'd prefer to have the guy at the club mentality. Like, those people look like they're having a great time. So it gets Friday night, a little high there dancing. I've never done that in my life. I'm busy making sure people have cookies.

Well, I think I wanted to add to Scott that I think the people who are maybe saying, you know, the diabetes isn't getting in the way. I think they ultimately want to, they want to though they want or they want to know how to manage their diabetes. And so what is that? That's the fascinating piece of like, what is blocking that? Because I think they don't, they don't want to ignore it because they ultimately know what's happening to their body.

Oh, I truly believe that. I don't think that I've ever spoken to anyone who doesn't care. Yeah, never, never once they have varying degrees of success. They have varying degrees of guilt, they have great degrees of stress. But in the end, it's that thing you said once got out about, about the about burning out. And that it's that the hardest part is that you're trying so hard, over and over and over again and you're not getting a result like that. That's the That's what burnout is like. It's not the end when you give up. It's it's the part where you're like I don't have the right tools. Like somebody gave you a screwdriver to like nail the put a nail and you get up every day and spend 24 hours trying to make that screwdriver and a hammer doesn't work you know and Yes. Anyway, I that's how that's how it strikes me is that I've never once talked to somebody with diabetes who I thought oh, they don't care. I've never thought that

Right, right. Yeah. And I don't think you do either. I think it's just that that's where the empathy pieces of like, I know, I know they want to change. And, you know, I hope that they are able to find that what is that piece that's preventing them from getting to that place of acceptance?

It's hard. But Well, I appreciate you doing this, I hope. I hope everybody appreciates me giving myself up like this to hope. Because I guess there's, I'm in the middle. I'm like, why am I doing this? Like, why? Because a lot of people are gonna hear this. And I'm just like, I'm like, I'm crying in the cards, screaming and blah, blah, blah. Anyway, all right. Well,

I don't think people talk about you know, the emptiness stage very much. So I think you probably normalized a lot of people's experience in a really healthy way.

Listen, I'm gonna tell you something. The hardest thing I did in the last week was turn my wife down when she was like, we could have another baby. And I was like, Ooh, no. That's not okay. That kid would end up really poorly raised in school for this now, it's, I at first thought that it was the past of time that I, I was upset about, and there is some of that, like, I just like, at one point, my son's like, what's wrong? And I said, I didn't think my life would go by this quickly. You know, and, and I just like, I'm like, I always knew we were going to get here. I just don't understand how it's happening. Yes, yeah. That's all because I can like, I can see him in my head at like, different stages of his life. And it was like, how did we get past that so quickly? Like, get away? How did uh, it's just the weirdest thing about time a day takes forever, a week takes forever a month goes by and you know, and you're like, oh, it's New Year's Eve again. Like, but how's that possible? Because every day felt like it took forever, you know?

Anyway, I'm gonna you're encouraging me. I'm gonna go be very present and focused with my children today. Appreciate where they are sure that

bother. Thank you. Good. 15 minutes. You're very welcome. Well, a huge thanks to Erica for coming on the show again and sharing her insights with us. Don't forget Erica forsyth.com is where you can find her. And I have it here somewhere. If you live in California, Utah, Oregon, and Florida, you can use Erica. And she's adding more states all the time. So keep checking back at Erica forsyth.com. I'd like to thank the Contour Next One blood glucose meter. Why am I thanking a blood glucose meter you say? Well for sponsoring the Juicebox Podcast and for being amazing. Contour next one.com forward slash juice box get yourself an accurate, reliable and easy to carry meter. Hey, if you enjoyed this, you should check out the private Facebook group for Juicebox Podcast. It's called Juicebox Podcast type one diabetes. And there are over 33,000 members in there. People just like you talking about using insulin, and all of the things that go with that. Thank you so much for listening. I'll be back very soon with another episode of The Juicebox Podcast. If you're looking for more episodes with Erica, go to juicebox podcast.com. Scroll to the top in the menu and check that mental wellness series. You'll find a whole bunch of stuff there with Erica. Though, though, that was two very clunky sentences, but I don't have it in me to re record them. So juicebox podcast.com mental wellness more stuff with Erica, head on over again. Thanks for listening. I'll be back very soon with another episode.

Welcome back friends. This is episode 840 of the Juicebox Podcast. Today I'm welcoming back Erica Forsythe. Of course, you know Erica is the licensed marriage and family therapist who I speak to frequently on the show. She's in California. But if you live in California, Utah, Oregon or Florida, you can use her services. Check her out at Erica forsythe.com. Today, Eric and I are going to talk about burdens and how you can help to alleviate them. While you're listening. Please remember that nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise, always consult a physician before making any changes to your health care plan are becoming bold with insulin. If you have type one diabetes, or are the caregiver of someone with type one, filling out the survey AT T one D exchange.org. Forward slash juice box would go a long way towards helping people with type one. It'll take you fewer than 10 minutes. It's absolutely HIPAA compliant and completely anonymous. He one day exchange.org forward slash juicebox. Take the survey this show is sponsored today by the glucagon that my daughter carries G voc hypo Penn Find out more at G voc glucagon.com. Forward slash juicebox. Today's episode is also sponsored by ag one ag one is from athletic greens. It's the green drink that I have every morning. And you could too. When you go to my link athletic greens.com forward slash juice box, not only will you get your first order of ag one, but you'll also get a year supply of vitamin D and five free travel packs. Athletic greens.com forward slash juicebox. Erica, welcome back.

Thank you. Thank you for being here.

Thank you, I appreciate you being here. We talked last time when we were recording about this episode, and we said we're going to talk about how you can share a burden that you're carrying. And I don't know a lot about this. So there's going to be a lot of talking from you, and not so much from me. But my expectation here is that people do a pretty good job of hiding what they're going through. And that you think you're doing a good job of dealing with it. But you're not if you're suppressing it. And how do you recognize that there's too much going on in your life and find a way to I want to say offload it. But that seems wrong, right? Because you're putting it on someone else maybe. But then how do you how do you do that? How do you first I guess how do you recognize when there's more going on? than maybe you should be dealing with?

So how do you become kind of aware that maybe you are carrying you're carrying more than you need to be? And I think I would even I would take a step back and think about well why is there something preventing you from sharing your burdens or your hardships? Whether it's something diabetes related or you know, other stressors in your life? Maybe that's how maybe that was modeled to you as a child. Maybe it's part of your family system. family culture is just you know, keep it, keep it going keep it in the house, don't talk about it with other people. Maybe you are the recipient of other people sharing their burdens, you become known as a safe person. And you don't feel comfortable reciprocating because that's what people do. They come to you and not as it not as a therapist, but just as a friend. So maybe that you know, pattern has been established.

Maybe you are okay, sure. Sugar getting high.

Well, I am Did you call it picked it up? Yeah. It is. I am I am stable, but a little I'm writing a little bit high. But I think I'm good. Hopefully, we'll see if I go oh, that would be exciting.

Well, I've done that once. It was it was not good. For me. It was very stressful. I don't wanna get off the track, but this older woman in her 50s So and she was recording from a hotel room, and she got low. And it was it was anxiety inducing for me.

I think I actually listened to that one. Yeah, it's just did she start eating sugar packets? I think are some one yams. Please

don't do that to me. I've done that once in my life. I'm good. No.

No, it's okay. So okay, so why I think yeah, asking, Why would be the first question maybe two. And you might have you might not know to ask, Why am I not sharing my burdens, but maybe some symptoms to look for behaviors are if you're kind of checking out when other people are sharing? There's Okay. So you're kind of like a Ha, ha, ha. And then later, you're kind of what did i What did they say, because maybe you're so you're drowning in your own grief and your own stress. Maybe after a conversation with a family member or friend, you come home, and you experience feelings of resentment, or bitterness, like they're complaining about missing their flight home from Hawaii, I have to deal with this and this and this and SMS, but you aren't communicating that. But so you're feeling your thoughts and feelings are resentful, or bitter. Maybe you don't know how. And you are feeling trapped in your own mind and hearts. And every time you open your mouth to try and share, you either just cry, which is your body's it's your body's way of letting something out. Or you're really angry and irritable all the time. But, and you're you're maybe putting your anger on your partner or your kids, or your employer, co workers. So those would be I think, two markers to look for. If you aren't, don't have the awareness that you aren't sharing your hardships, maybe look for like that anger that irritability, the kind of constantly crying could be things to look for?

Do we dump things on people? Who we know? Or hope, I guess in our heart won't tire of us? Do you ever notice like, I don't know what I mean? Like, like, like partners will be different to each other than they would be in the outside world. I always feel like that's when you see that. That's because you like in your heart you think well, this person is not going to abandon me over this. So I can, like, do this thing. Is that accurate?

Yes, I think in a, in a safe and trusted, you know, and in a relationship in which you can trust your partner and what you have established in your relationship that you can, you know, unload your your burdens your emotions, that's what you know why often white people choose to be in a partnership to have that reciprocal conversation and that you're aren't feeling alone, right in the world. And so, I think part of that is also having, if you were to think about can I share safely with my partner? Great. Do I feel like I have people outside of my home or relationship expert who I can share with? Having that kind of social awareness is also important, because you might want you know, I think about some people who would say, well, this, my friend is going through so much right now I just feel like I can't share, you know, my, my trauma, or my kids diagnosis story. Or, you know, I don't feel safe sharing this information with this person, because then they're gonna give me a whole bunch of ways to fix it.

Yeah, it's interesting online, sometimes people will say, I'm, I'm gonna tell you something. I don't I don't need your judgment. I'm just trying to get it out. So those people are looking for, for like, it's almost one way sharing, but it's the only thing they seem to have, if that makes sense.

Yes. And maybe, in the initial stages of learning how to share our learning how to or it's a new, it's a new, you know, trauma. You just want to share, you don't want any problem solving or conflict resolution. You just want to and I applaud those people who can be clear and ask for what they need to say, Hey, I'm going to share something and I just, I'm looking for validation, or I'm looking for to not feel alone in this. And then they'll they'll get what they need. Back is, are those things

one of the big surprises of the podcast for me? Is that it it somehow offers that to people even though it's not a two way conversation, like hearing. I'm maybe you understand this better than I do. I mean, what's honest, let's be honest, I hope you understand it better than I did. But when you hear two people, me and another person having a conversation about that person's life with diabetes, and you're and you're a fly on the wall for that, somehow that gives people a lot of comfort. And that part of I didn't first of all, I'd probably heard me say it. I didn't expect that to be the truth about the podcast and it still takes me by surprise a little bit, you know? But that's a real thing. Am I wrong?

It's a totally real thing. Because as a listener, you're, you can feel like, oh, that I'm not alone in that feeling or that experience. You you have that thought of, oh, that they experienced that too. I'm not crazy for thinking or feeling this way. And that minim minimizes that feeling of isolation, which is a key factor and leading to you know, depressive depression.

So you're almost in a three person conversation, like you're sitting around the campfire, except you're not actively involved in it. But you are, in your mind going, that makes sense. Oh, I've had that feeling. And then that makes you a part of the conversation one way or the other? Whether it's virtually or if you're in person.

Yes, yes. No, I think that's a that's a great point. And so in going back to the, you know, do I feel safe sharing with, with my partner or with friends? I think, if you don't feel safe, listen to that. Also, um, you know, we don't want to say go and share your burdens with everybody. Understanding that, that sense of safety? Can that person give you what you need? Can you ask for what you need, are all really key points, I'm gonna

bring something up that I witnessed online, I'm not gonna give anybody's details. And I'll be very vague about it. But it's so interesting how this all layers together, I saw a post in the private group, where a person was trying to share with everybody that they thought would understand that, how kind of defeated, they felt that in their personal life, they tried to organize a thing around diabetes. amongst their family and their extended family, I think they shared it with like, 30 people on Facebook. And besides their parents, no one responded to it. And they were really, like, devastated by this. And I'm reading the posts. And I think I think that myself, I mean, I don't know like Erica, I, I pride myself on trying my best to sit in the center and see 360 around things, I think, sort of my job on some level. Yes. And so I'm listening to what she's saying. And I'm like, I get it, like you reached out to 30 people and not one even privately, like, get off of like, but she never thought of what if they didn't see it? What if it made them uncomfortable? What if they were just busy? Like she didn't put any of the context of what might be happening on their side? Or maybe they just didn't want to? I don't know, like, I have no idea. But she came online to say to people can you believe this happened? And instead of, and some people were very supportive, overwhelmingly people were supportive. But it's always a couple of people who have to step in and say what I just went through my head out loud, as if it's the only consideration in the story, like, what you shouldn't have put them in that position. It's such a small part of the conversation, right? Like maybe, maybe she shouldn't have, like, I don't know, but there's no good that comes from saying that to a stranger, who's clearly here for you to just, she just wants you to say I have diabetes, too. I know how much that sucks. And by the way, everybody knows it sucks. But interesting how some people feel like they have to step in, and, and defend some other idea within the bigger idea. And it's felt like you were almost going through them earlier, like, you know, like, why would I not share something with someone else? While it might be because I feel like people are sharing too much with me. But you don't know. That's why you're doing that in that moment. And as those people are coming back at her with what could have been constructive conversation, if they would have communicated it better. It felt it felt a little attacking. And then, of course, as soon as that happened, then the original poster, then just lashes back. And I'm like, here we go. I've seen the story about a million times. And so I'm watching them do it. It's interesting to be able to sit, I feel like a little bit of my might give me a little insight into what your job is like, cuz you can point you can go well, that person is doing it for this reason. And that person is doing it for that reason. And this person is responding like this, because you can see that it makes them uncomfortable that she shared it outwards to people was fascinating how many different responses there were. And they almost all were just mirroring how they felt back to her. And she obviously didn't have any of those thoughts. She was just trying. She was just trying to get her family to recognize that it was hard to raise a kid with diabetes. It was really it, you know, and she

was coming to the group with to have to be validated.

Yeah, she wanted to commiserate and listen, 98% of the people commiserated with her Oh, But the ones that didn't, you could have sectioned them all off into another room and said, Hey, you got to go see a therapist about why you answered this way. Because you're mad about something else,

or Yeah, or maybe not respond online, you know?

Or take that into account into consideration that your thoughts are not so important that you need to like torture this person more, but they don't think they are. They think they're showing her some truth that she's missing, which by the way, might not be her truth, or the people who she was speaking to. It's just your, I mean, it's never lost me that I make a podcast and then I'm like, listen, sometimes people should keep their opinions to themselves while I'm gonna go. But, um, anyway, it's just how it seemed to me

and I Yes. Sorry, go. Go ahead. I was gonna respond. No, please do. Okay. So I think the that's part part of the risk me there's a risk benefit, right on sharing something like that online, where you're coming to a trusted, you know, forum, that maybe they received comfort in the past. And so that's the benefit. But the risk is, you really don't know how was going to land, you know, you are you are the sender of information. And as how are the receivers of that information going to respond, when you don't hear tone of voice really, in a post. So it is that's a risk that you're taking, sharing something really vulnerable in the group. But most of the time, you probably your needs are going to be met. But I also as the sender of information, you cannot control how it's going to land in the receivers lap.

And it's odd to expect that you'll get 100% compliance from the from the responses, like why not be listened, it took me a long time to figure this out. And I had to get, I mean, the way I got to it was I got a very, very harsh review of my book. After I got five or six glowing reviews, like professional reviews, I, I was like on cloud nine, I was like everyone's gonna love this book. And then like the sixth review, basically, was it just it read to me, like, I hate this guy. I hate what comes out of his mouth. I hate the kids. He talked about the wife, his life, everything. Like it just they did not like me the way I told us nothing, right? And it knocked me back. It was the first time. And my publisher said if you're gonna put yourself out in the public, this is the game. Like, you can't like did you like the book? And I was like, yeah, and he goes, do you agree with what was said here? And I said, No, but it hits every one of my insecurities. Every one of my insecurities like what he said, especially about the writing, specifically, because I'm not Eric, I mean, I don't think it's any great. Like, I'm not a writer, you know, Damien, like I barely got through high school, I, if I'm good at one thing in writing, I come off the way I come off in person. So it's, it feels very, like comfortable, right? But it's not, it's not correct. I still, when I got that I wrote a book and I read the whole manuscript or something to look for where I didn't put the commas. I don't know what I'm doing. Okay. Anyway. But I learned to, I learned to say to myself, if this is the space I want to be in, then this is what's going to happen. And I have to be open to other people's ideas, and hear them as like possibilities of constructive criticism, but I can't take every one of them on as if they are gospel every time they come to you. That's crushing. And I do think that that inability to do that, maybe is what sent our online society in the direction it went more recently, in the last couple of years where no one's allowed to say anything that isn't perfect. Because what if you hurt someone's feelings? And I don't think that's valuable either. So, but you have to be ready for it. If you're gonna put yourself out there. If you're gonna say, I need somebody to validate me, you have to be ready to look at one thing and go I don't agree with that and just never think about it again.

Right, then that like for you, like what you shared? That might take a little bit of processing and that's okay, too.

We it was a weeks Yeah. But it helped me because now I'm i I'm good with it now, you know?

Mm hmm. And I think for some people who aren't comfortable sharing what's going on with others, there might be fear preventing them to do that, right that they it might. It might actually even feel like if I verbalize out loud how hard this feels right now. I'm thinking of, obviously the caregivers with their Newt their child who's newly diagnosed. These are caregivers that I meet with and they feel like how do I if I share it out loud? Not me. makes it feel real. There might be it kind of made, there's might be fear that it's going to make it feel worse. If you share it out loud to somebody, or a pastor or a priest or a therapist or a friend, it doesn't really matter. But in any sense, if there's a fear of like, you're gonna be, like swallowed in grief, when in fact, actually by keeping it inside, that's where you drown.

Yeah, but it, it collapses on you, like a black hole instead of the explosion that you're expecting. You know, which doesn't really come I mean, saying it out loud. I mean, there's a million different ways to say it. But there's a I talked about it in an episode recently, but there's a great book, I read about back pain. And that just says, like, Look, if you're not really hurt, if you have a pull, like, you know, if this is a tension thing, just saying, my back is okay, I'm not hurt that it actually helps, you know, like, you go like, okay, like you believe it almost and, and to say, this is really difficult. Do you think people expect that, like the world just gonna end if they say it out loud?

I think that's part of the fear for sure. And and I understand that if you are, again, all the reasons that we talked about not comfortable, haven't been exposed, don't know how. And the beautiful thing about sharing your, you know, your grief, your emotions, your hardships, is that there isn't really a right way. But as long as you are in a safe position to do it, I think for those people who are just testing that out.

So you got to sort of acknowledge how you feel acknowledged what the reality is, and then make sort of intentional movements towards a resolution. Does that is that kind of how it works?

Yes, I think that might be after the sharing, right. So I think if you are able to say, I think a beautiful way to do it is to also articulate to the person who you're sharing with is that this is new to me, whatever all the things that you're fearing. This is new to me. I'm not really comfortable sharing this hard stuff that's going on in my life, so bear with me. I'm not sure I need anything back from you. Besides just Wow, it sounds like it's really hard. And oftentimes, we feel like it's weird to ask for what we need and that emotional exchange Yeah, but that's one of the most beautiful ways to get your needs met without like, I'm going to share this and hope that they just give me what I need. But then you kind of end the conversation feeling misunderstood, not validated and all those things

I think two things you're making me think first thing is that men when you have diabetes and use insulin, low blood sugar can happen when you don't expect it. G vo Capo pen is a ready to use glucagon option that can treat very low blood sugar in adults and kids with diabetes ages two and above. Find out more go to G voc glucagon.com forward slash juicebox G voc shouldn't be used in patients with pheochromocytoma or insulinoma visit G voc glucagon.com/risk. I was able to replace my daily multivitamin with ag one from athletic greens. Now instead of taking that big pill, I take a nice drink of ag one. All I do is take the little tumbler that AG one sent me I put a scoop in with some water Shake, shake, shake, drink it down. And that's it. I'm all set. Here's the great thing about ag one. It's lifestyle friendly. So whether you're eating keto, Paleo vegan, dairy free or gluten free, it's for you. It contains less than one gram of sugar no GMOs, no nasty chemicals or artificial anything and it actually tastes good. It supports better sleep quality. And for every purchase the Athletic Greens donates to the organizations helping to get nutritious foods to kids in need, including No Kid Hungry here in the US. Athletic Greens was created when its founder experienced a ton of gut health issues and ended up on a complicated supplement routine to recover. All you need to do is take one scoop of ag one and you're on your way athletic greens.com forward slash juice box and to make this even more exciting, athletic greens is going to give you a free one year supply of immune supporting vitamin D and five free travel packs with your first purchase. All you have to do is go to my link athletic greens.com forward slash juice box links in the show notes. Links at juicebox podcast.com. Thank you for supporting the show by supporting the sponsors. Don't forget you can find Erica at Erica forsythe.com She's not a sponsor, but I had a little bit of music left. Men are much more open to this than you would think they are As long as it's privately a group of men, if one starts talking about something that's going wrong, you can see how almost excited most of them are that someone's saying something that they think. And it's not normally how they communicate. I've seen that for certain. But the other thing I wonder is, what if you just don't have someone? Like, what if there's just like, There's no one I see that happen. Sometimes I see people say, I can find it in my sister in law, but I knew she was going to blah, blah, blah. And you know, like this is because if, Listen, everyone is struggling, everyone, okay, on some different level. And the fear in this scenario was this person who wants to talk about diabetes, if I share this with my sister in law, she is going to lord it over me. She is going to treat me he's like, Oh, look, there's a person I'm doing better than take hold to so that she doesn't feel the pain of her struggle, right. And if you can't find somebody in your life, because your parents are tough, because your parents will start trying to fix it, especially if you're an adult, going back to your adult parents, and you're like, I'm really struggling with your mom is going to be like, Oh my god, I knew this was gonna happen. My baby needs me. Like, you know, now you're a 35 year old woman, somebody's baking your brownies?

You're like, no, no, I don't need this. So like, where do you like, is therapy? The only way to find up? There's

got to be another way. For a bartender like not that, um, but you know what I mean? Like, it's not what a bartender is?

Well, I think, yeah,

they're just listening, because they want the tips, but who cares? Your thing, you know? So?

No, I think what the beauty the kind of the magic of therapy is, yes, you can, you can receive tools for stress management, you can use coat, you can utilize coping mechanisms, you can process trauma, but kind of the magic of it is you're telling your story. And someone is there to witness that. Someone is there witnessing, listening, validating your pain. And that's what we need as human beings is, you know, someone to witness bear witness to our life and our story and our pain. So obviously, that can happen. Hopefully, it should happen at therapy. If you feel like you can't afford it, don't want to try it, I would try. There are a lot there are a lot of free resources on line. There are a lower cost type of therapy, there is if you are a religious person seeking, you know pastoral care within your church that is usually free. Or seeking those types, your your pastors, your elders, those types of community members and asking for their referrals. Maybe seeking a friend who if you and if you if you don't have those, and there are people who don't have those close knit friendships. Maybe that would be when you want to go to therapy. But seeking support groups, you know, there are a lot of meetup groups, diabetes support groups, obviously, the online forum is a place. But if you're wanting that in person, touch point, there are lots lots of ways to do that, that are, you know, low cost,

I'm going to make a couple of weird, like, so. Can I go to a grave side and speak to a past loved one like that, like, does that is that a healthy way to have that conversation when you don't have someone to have it with? Where's that order line? Am I about this? Am I about to describe like a time when you might want to go to the hospital and check.

I mean, I would say you know, on occasion, particularly if you're grieving that your loved one and you're wanting to just share and reflect I think, speaking out loud is powerful. Even if there isn't an actual human being there. People feel that connection. That's why we do have gravesites. That's why people go. I would say if you were doing that every day, that might be an indicator.

Like once or twice. People say, I've heard a number of people say they talk to themselves in their car. Almost like therapy when I was a child really young. I remember being it struck me one day, like what would I do if my parents died? And I couldn't figure out what I would do. And so I I kind of roleplayed it in my head. Like I it was a one time thing but I can picture it as clear as day. I gave them some sort of a you know, I don't know it was a car accident or something like that. I then thought, okay, they're gone. How would I feel that I worked through how I would feel that I wondered where I would go and then I did that and then I never did it again. And I never worried about them dying again after that was very injured. thing. I don't know if that's wrong. Also, the last thing that I made a note by I know, I'm not saying you should do this, but I have heard more than a number of prostitutes in like documentaries and interviews say that you'd be surprised how many people pay them and then don't ask for sex. And then they just want to talk or hang out or stuff like that. Anyway, that's what came to mind when you were talking about that. But I mean, probably a pastor would probably be a quicker, easier way and cheaper. I mean, unless they hit you up for 20%. And I don't know.

Well, no, I think well, your second example of, you know, role playing. I think that yeah, that's also a reflection of your ability to kind of go through that that cognitive behavioral structure like you, you thought about how you would feel you thought about what you would do. And then once you go through the cycle, it changed how you felt. And so you that stress and fear was kind of relieved. So you were able, that is very unique and special, that you were able to kind of walk yourself through that.

I remember, I remember the time I was with my brother in law. And it was like a family thing. I don't know what we were talking about. And I said something about, you know, if the house catches on fire, I know which window I'm going to jump out of. And he goes, what, and I said, you don't know what you're gonna do in a dire situation, if there's a fire and he goes, No, I said, what about this situation? And I started really, like rattling off like big ideas. And I was like, What if you lost your job? What are you going to do? What if this happens? What if that happens? He was I don't know. And I was like, Dude, I thought through all of that, like, you're not pre planning for things that are probably going to happen. I mean, the house fire ones, not a probably, but like the other stuff was right. Right. You know, and I felt, I felt crazy in the moment, because he looked at me like, What are you talking about? I was like, I don't know, man, like I've role played through all this. I know. I'm not leaving it up to chance, if something like this goes on, I said, you don't know what you would do if your car went into a lake? He's like, what? And I'm like, I do.

Well, and that that could be at your a planner, that could be a little bit of, you know, anxiety driven motivation to figure out what to do. When if when I don't know

if it's anxiety, Erica, I have a plan of what I'm going to do if I find a genie in a bottle. Okay, well, that's because I'm 100% sure I'll miss it. Listen, I've said this on the podcast before I knew if I didn't have a plan, I'd end up with a billion dollars and a giant penis. And so I

was like, I need a plan if this happens. So it's obvious right? First first. First one is, I don't die before I finished making my wishes. Because I know I'll drop dead before I get them all out. Right. So Oh, my God. Then the second one, of course is unlimited wishes. Or the second one is no matter what my third wish comes true. And then the third wishes unlimited wishes then I started taking care of people's health and welfare after that. Like is that not obvious?

I know I love that guy. That is your that is your mindset. You were for sure a planner and you and you take care of people. That's also Yeah.

Well, that's great. Yeah. Do you not like when is that not what everybody thinks when they think if I win the lottery, I'll help other like, I'll set other buddy up. That's the only thing I think of I don't even know what I would do with all that money.

Well, that's I don't know if everyone I have not asked that question to enough people to know but I imagine that's might not be on the top five. Maybe they have your your Outlook

to put everybody's make sure everybody's okay. And health always comes first in my head. Like I always think like, I'll get them a private doctor. So they can go through all their concerns. Like that is one of the first things I think. But seriously, I'm not joking. I'm not trying to be funny. I know if I didn't have this thought through. I'd have three of the stupidest things in the world if I found a genie

bottle. I love it. I love it. So

go ahead I'm sorry. So I

wanted to I wanted to go back to your the third point of you know, paying, you know, paying a prostitute. I think that goes you know, there are human human nature as you don't. There are there yes, there are. There are introverts or extroverts. But I think at our core, we don't want to be alone all the time. Yeah. And so that reflects to me just that deep human need to be seen, heard, validated, loved, hopefully, you know, and not feel that that emptiness

so those burdens drive you farther and farther away from those connections. If you don't strive to keep them is that right?

Yes, I mean, I think it ultimately can I would, I would look at you know, if you if you feel like no one needs to hear these burdens. I'm not worthy or mine aren't big enough. for bad enough, that's a really common, you know, lie that maybe you tell yourself with like, well, it's not I don't have it that bad. But then I would look at how, how are how is that mindset impacting your relationships with friends family, like we just talked about? Is it? Are people are you feeling isolated from them? Are you not having those connections conversations, if you're just holding everything inside? Yeah, because of all the reasons the fear the not knowing how mine is mine aren't, my problems aren't bad enough or big enough. It can impact your connections,

there's a sentence that gets spoken a lot. That I think it's meant to be insulting a little bit, but I see it in both directions. So it's the worst thing that's ever happened to you is the worst thing that's ever happened to you. And so on. The kind of bad side of that is, the idea is that if you have lived a pretty good life, the tiniest thing you can be out complaining about. And most people might look back you and be like, Oh my god, like, that's the worst thing that's ever happened to you. But still, the rest of that point is, that's still the worst thing that's ever happened to you. And it strikes you just as bad as the worst thing that's ever happened to me, even if my thing includes fire and brimstone and a car hanging off a cliff and yours is that, you know, you couldn't pay your rent on time. Like, you know what I mean? Like, and so there's no way to like, I think that when you're talking about burdens and offloading them, so you can be healthy and be happy and live. judging your burdens is not valuable. Like it doesn't matter what they are. They're, they're the worst. They're the worst thing that's happening to you right now. And that can be overwhelming.

Yes, judging your burdens. And judging somebody else's, you know, I think we do. As humans, we kind of categorize burdens or problems or hardships. And yes, there are some that are really extreme. But as you said, it doesn't really matter. Because if it's you lived this carefree easy life, and then something hard happens, you have never experienced something hard. So of course, it's going to be traumatizing and painful. And so, but that person might not share it because you have that mindset of like, oh, but at least I'm not, you know, on the streets, or living with the chronic illness or your whatever, that you're comparing it too. But that doesn't really matter, because it is painful and challenging.

How, why then, if, if that is the wrong way to deal with that? It isn't. It's hard to argue with though that when you see somebody who is clearly worse off than you, it does make you feel better. I mean, that's just true, right? Like you.

I think it is true. And we can internalize that and say we know I'm so grateful for what I have. You can you can live in that space of gratitude of contentment. But that doesn't mean that takes away from the pain or struggles that you have. Right? You can't it's not like you can't it's not like one or the other. But you can hold both.

You can't let that gratitude trick you into staying in that room. When you shouldn't be there like yeah, yes. Yes, that person has literally no legs, but it doesn't make the thing you're struggling with. Reasonable to stay struggling with it. You still should try to get away from it.

Yes and find seek help support all the things? Yeah, I think that's we we often live in this either or mindset. Yeah. And okay, well, I just gotta be grad. I just gotta be grateful. I gotta be grateful. I got to be content. But don't. But yeah, but also allow yourself the space to feel like Gosh, this is really I'm really struggling. I feel really sad, angry, frustrated about this other thing too.

How do you Excuse me? Sorry, how do you let's put ourselves in a we're in a relationship. And I have diabetes, and my spouse doesn't or my kid does. And neither of us do or something. I want to go to the other person, the other person in my life and say this is how I feel. But they might not be ready to say how they feel out loud. Is there a primer? Is there a way I can get them to that space so that it doesn't get met with either they shut off? Or they push back? Because they don't want to say it out loud? I mean that that seems like an important consideration here.

Absolutely. So you're in your in your relationship and your partner and maybe you're struggling with something and you want to have that reciprocal exchange with your partner. And so you come and share your your stuff. And I think if you're finding again over like patterns, I think you want to maybe first set up is it an appropriate time to have this conversation? Have You plan to say, hey, can we talk, I'm really struggling with this, can we talk on Wednesday night after the kids go down. Because oftentimes, if this isn't something that you do on a daily basis with your partner, they might not be prepared to receive that. So having a set time, being clear with what your goals are, if you're finding over many, many times that your partner is either cut off or defensive or unable to receive what you're sharing, or wants to kind of one up you then I would maybe encourage them to go, you know, it to see their seek communication, couples therapy, because then that that's going to interfere with the intimacy, ultimately, between you and your partner. Yeah,

in general, therapy really at its core is, is a is a third party who just doesn't care about the details, right? And can listen, and then kind of get you moving in the right direction. People. You don't give people answers. That's not your job. Right. Your job is to show them what's happening and let them absorb it. And, and I guess, eventually become okay with it. Is that right?

Yes, I think too. We I would want to hear you know, what, what is your goal in therapy, because oftentimes people are really clear with what they need or want is processing their trauma, is it I want to learn how to meet people, I want to fix this problem in my relationship. So once we're clear on where are we trying to go, then it's about reflecting what do I see understanding the patterns poking around, sometimes if I feel like there are some hidden traumas or things that might be interfering with your current relationships and how you're communicating and getting move helping the client move along to, to get to their goal, but not by saying, I think you should do this, I think you should do that. You're really bad with this, you know, this area that's not

being afraid to go to therapy is odd. Because really, if you are, then you're, you're just afraid to be to hear your own thoughts eventually, because that's really all that's going to come I think people have a mis understanding that you're going to get in there, and you're going to explain to them what happened. And you know, it just doesn't seem to me that that's the way it works. And I wanted to make sure people understood that. Right?

Yeah, I think there might be a fear of, you know, what does? What does there be mean? Is it is it sometimes being honest with yourself, and that can be really scary, and really hard.

I also think it's probably this is just me, from my anecdotal, you know, experiences, but what you think is wrong, whatever wrong means, quote, unquote, you're often not right about that. Like, very, very infrequently Do you understand at your core what's happening, and just can't get away from it. And I go back to that example of, you know, the person sharing the story and how people came from all different directions. No one saw themselves as an aggressor in it. Like, if you if I, if I stop, and I say, hey, you know, you're being a little harsh. They're like, No, I'm not. This is just This is obviously what's going on. I'm like, Well, this is your this is your reaction to what you just saw. It's not obviously what's going on, you don't know any of these people.

Right are, are where they're sitting, what share what room, what not, how was their day, you know, all of those things

at all. And, but here's a little bonus, because eventually we'll talk about interactions online. But as the moderator of a very big Facebook page, I also think that there's sometimes certain times of night where people are a little drunk, drunk and online. And

oh, yes. And maybe they're a little just more apt or free to share. Yeah, there's, there's the filters or not,

there's no filter at all. They're either sharing openly or they're picking. It's very, very much of interest. Okay, so I'm sorry. So I figured out why I'm carrying the burden. I figure out that how to get it off of me. And I go through all this process, I figure out who I can talk to. What's the what's my expectation for when I feel better? Like is it is it right away? Is it once I give it I hate to say this because I feel I feel very granola you saying this, but when you give something a voice, oftentimes it dissipates. And the I've just found that to be true. But I feel like I'm a Yoga Instructor in Southern California when I say that. Erica tells me she used to do yoga instruction.

Back when I was a yoga instructor,

but But you don't I mean, like I do. I do. Honestly, I found that to be true. Just saying something out loud is very valuable. But anyway, what's the like? What's the process? And is it possible that I'm so far into it? I can't do it on my own. We're, and then I need to find somebody else.

Okay, so what's sort of the goal? When do you start to feel good. And if you're in so far, deep, I think a good starting place is to journal. If you are, you know, I'd like the talking out loud in your in the car. Because again, it's like the voices in our mind can be the volume can be turned on so high that you can't function. And so by letting it out, I mean, it's, you know, classic, go journal, go get it out of your mind and onto the page that does help you are unloading it onto the paper or out into the world. By having someone else there present, not only hopefully, will you receive that validation that decrease feelings of isolation. But then if you're needing to, if you're needing help with some of those burdens, hopefully you can get to a place of, you know, stress management, problem solving, having some tools to utilize when you're starting to feel triggered, or overwhelmed or stressed or sad. Helping you find other resources to support yourself, be it independently with community. And maybe if it is past or current, you know, active trauma, helping you find ways to navigate through that. Changing your thinking or processing, the pain that you're feeling. Sometimes it's dealing with the psychosomatic symptoms, it really just depends on you know, what, what is the presenting issue, but ultimately, yes, you want to be able to function, but that the burdens are will continue, but then you'll have the skill set to manage it.

Can I offload these burdens in nonverbal ways? Exercise, boxing, running, like, like that kind of stuff? Can I go to an axe throwing place and let it out that way? I mean, is there value to that?

I guess I'm so glad you brought that up. Thank you. Yes, I think exercise is a great way to for stress management. If I think the caveat to that is if you're finding that you're that's the only thing you're using, and you're still seeing these other issues arise like that irritability, that sadness, that maybe it's not quite enough, but it's helping you just let

a little steam off every time you do it instead of just expressing it all.

Exactly, exactly. But I think that's a good first step. If you're kind of if you're in the space of I can't afford it. I don't have time. I don't want to trying these, you know, the journaling, the talking out loud, the exercise are all really great first steps for sure.

Yeah. I just to hear people talk about that, when they're in a good exercise routine, that their mental health feels better. And you never I mean, because some things are just, I mean, life's never going to be easy. Like it's never going to be without resistance, right? Like so there's always even if you're not struggling with big things, you're still struggling with small things that you that you don't recognize in the moment, likely.

Yes, yes. And the exercise obviously has so many great, you know, current, and then post side effects with all the endorphins and all that

release. So just some sort of a release. My last question, before I before I say something that I hope it's funny that I let you go is we talk we talk, you know, a lot from the perspective of a parent child who has type one and all that stuff that comes on. But this stuff is all just as relevant for an adult who's diagnosed. You know, I mean, and but that, but But it's different. Because your burden as a caregiver, and your burden as the person are just, I mean, I've just spoken to so many people, like it's just, it's a completely different reaction. People are, generally speaking, better at taking care of other people than they are taking care of themselves. And so I don't know. I guess though, if you're the parent, and there's a burden on you, then this really is about taking care of yourself. So both people fall into that conundrum of either I'm not going to take care of myself, or I'm going to put my effort into taking care of my kid. And so everybody ends up ignoring themselves, I guess. I don't know.

Yes, no, sorry. No, that I think that I think so. Yeah. Being diagnosed as an adult being a caregiver and your child is diagnosed. I think the adult there's a lot of layers to being diagnosed as adults. The I think the caregiver piece. I have found that people do throw their entire mind life thoughts, you know, they look like if Sleep, that they are just trying to protect their child. And I understand that wanting to give your child a healthy life. But I think having that awareness of is it, overtaking your life to the point that you will have no friendships, your your your relationship is suffering, your you cannot function, you're crying, you're irritable, then maybe that burden has become so overwhelming that you have forgotten about yourself. And that happens as caregivers, because you are so loving and obviously empathic and compassionate towards your child. And so having that wherewithal to say, You know what I need to I need to pause and find ways to take care of myself, it's really important that I know we've talked a bit about that before. Yeah,

I think that you can make the mistake of seeing your child's health or your own health as the win. And then you can ignore all the other things that God, you know, that got pushed to the side, to get to that win. And you, I think, I think in general, as time passes, we're all slowly dying, right? But and we also all slowly give something away to take the next step everyone so on, sometimes you have to, like sometimes you say, I'm not going to be around as much because I'm going to succeed at this job, or I don't care about the job. So we're going to make less money, but I'm going to be around more everybody gives something away to get to where they want to go. But I think just from my personal experience, if you think you're going to have diabetes, or raise somebody with diabetes, and just a Grade A one C and low variability is your mark, you know, your, your, your Mendoza line for you're doing a great job. And you think that just because you're doing a great job of that, that the other things aren't suffering, you're probably not right about that. Like there are probably other things suffering.

Yes, and you and you probably know that. But I also want to just speak, you know, a moment of encouragement that it's never too late to, to change that. Of course, it's just because you're all in you can you can make steps no matter you know, what age and stage you're in, to take to take care of yourself and find those small or big ways to do so.

Yeah, I know. I'll share to that if every anybody thinks that just because my daughter is a once has been so stable for so long, that I don't have these problems. I worry all the time. That I don't know if we haven't, and she seems okay. But I worry about the things that I forgot to address. And, you know, and I'm always wondering if it's going to like, come for her when she's in her late 20s or, you know, after college or like, is there going to be a point where she goes this synth off, it's too much. Like I'm trying to, I'm trying to walk that line. And I know you're a little low on time, but like I tried last night last night, she did a CGM change. And then I thought the CGM wasn't quite a while I wasn't sure how accurate it was in the first couple hours, and she starts eating and bolusing off of it. And then gets a little higher. And I said, I need you to test here. Like I don't want we shouldn't be given insulin at this number is not right, like let's test. And I know she was doing homework because I spoke to her earlier in the day. And she ignored me. And I I I did the thing in my head where I was like, Okay, this is gonna end up being a teaching moment, she is gonna get low later. And sure enough, it took till five o'clock in the morning. But she started have a low blood sugar. And I knew was coming. So I was awake or not awake. But I was listening for my alarm in my sleep, which is a thing, probably only people with diabetes understand. But I, I popped up, got her on, got it straight, kept moving. And at another time in the future, when she's not doing her homework, I'm gonna bring this up. And I'm gonna say, Look, if you just want to test your blood sugar for 30 seconds, we would have avoided all this. And I'm going to try to use it as a teaching moment. And I also tried to use it as a time where I didn't. I didn't let I didn't let diabetes turn into the reason why she couldn't do her homework. And because she was sitting down and I don't know, like there's a balance in there somewhere. But you have to you have to stay conscious of it and keep and keep going back and forth with it. You can't just slide one way or the other. But anyway, let me say this. I appreciate you doing this very much with me. I think you and I are finding a really nice rhythm.

And I hope Yeah, me too.

It's lovely. I appreciate you being here. And I hope everyone heard earlier when I talked about letting stress off as steam. And then I said express it so that I could have a double entendre because you could express yourself and express this theme. I was so proud of myself. Oh,

I'm so sorry. I missed that and did not give you due credit.

No, no, no, I was I got it done. Good. I don't though and I was just when it was over, I was like, Ah, I felt so good about it. Listen, I don't I'm not good at a lot of stuff, being able to hold a conversation. And at the same time, think about the words you're going to use to like make a pawn. I was pretty proud. I

know that it's good. You felt you shelved it, you held it. You used it. And that was so many skills. No,

please. That's ridiculous. If it wasn't for iPhones and cheap microphones, the skill would be completely useless. So thank you so much. I'll talk to you again soon. A huge thank you to one of today's sponsors, G voc glucagon, find out more about Chivo Capo pen at G Vogue glucagon.com forward slash juicebox. You spell that g VOKEGLUC. Ag o n.com. Forward slash juice box. I'm also going to thank athletic greens for their sponsorship and remind you to get some ag one at athletic greens.com forward slash juice box don't forget free vitamin D five free travel packs with your first order athletic greens.com forward slash juice box thank you so much for listening. I hope you are enjoying yourself while you're listening to the show. If you are, share it with somebody else, tell them how to download it or where to get it on Apple Music or Spotify or wherever you're listening. I really appreciate that. That's how the show goes through word of mouth. And of course if you're looking for community, find that private Juicebox Podcast page on Facebook Juicebox Podcast type one diabetes, you'll know you have the right place if it asks you just a couple of questions because we need to make sure you're a real person and not a bot or something you know Juicebox Podcast type one diabetes. Lastly, there's a ton of episodes with Erica if you're looking for them. Once you get into that Facebook group in the feature tab there's a list or that list is also available at the top of juicebox podcast.com In the menu system. Erica is terrific. And I've been talking to her for a while so there's a nice little catalog of episodes with her

Hello friends and welcome to episode 850 of the Juicebox Podcast. Today, I'll be speaking with Erica Forsythe again now, you know Erica, she's a licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, who also has type one diabetes. And she's been on the show a ton of times. And today Erica and I are going to talk about guilt and shame. And we are going to be using feedback from listeners that was left in the private Facebook group. It's interesting, it's interesting how guilt and shame can take a hold of people. And today we're going to talk about a few ways that maybe you can get through it and past it, and hopefully, leave it behind. While you're listening, please remember two things. First, nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise, always consult a physician before making any changes to your health care plan, or becoming bold with insulin. And here's the other thing to remember. You can reach Erica at Erica forsythe.com Or by calling 626-344-2266. Last thing very quickly T one D exchange.org. Forward slash juice box join the registry complete the survey help move type one diabetes research forward. Take you about 10 minutes, T one D exchange.org. Forward slash juice box. This episode of The Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by touched by type one. Now touched by type one is a fantastic organization. They do wonderful things for people living with type one diabetes, and they'd love for you to check them out at touched by type one.org on Facebook or Instagram. One of the things you'll find on their website is their annual event that I'm going to be speaking at again this year. So once you go over there and pick around the website, see what you can learn. Touched by type one.org The events free by the way, you can just go to it. I'll be there. I'll talk. We'll say hello. It will be lovely. today's podcast is also sponsored by the Contour Next One blood glucose meter. My daughter has been using this meter for years. It is fantastic contour next.com forward slash juice box. Small, easy to use, easy to transport easy to see. Bright light second chance test strips. Oh my goodness, contour next.com forward slash juice box.

Iron up are we going to? We're going to say like thanks for the alright Ivan, I'm happy to say it too. Thanks for all those writings on the Facebook page.

Oh, you got a lot of responses back from the last episode.

No, no. From the post that we're talking about. That's like, yeah, yeah, that was amazing. What people shared. Yeah.

So here, I'm recording, we'll just bring everybody into it. So Jenny, and I have begun making a Type Two diabetes series. And you and I have spoken about guilt and shame in the past, as well as other people who have come on the podcast and brought it up. And I'm a little embarrassed to say that, even though I've had a number of conversations about it, my brain doesn't naturally understand the difference between guilt and shame yet, right. So Jenny and I are getting ready to start this one episode. And I thought, let me get a little perspective from people. And I put up a post that just says, guilt and shame. If you've struggled with guilt or shame, and have found a way past that, can you please share your experience here? You know, your experiences may be discussed anonymously on the podcast. Well, that post ended up with like, 100 responses, and it was seen by like 9000 accounts. So that means that, you know, the algorithm thought, oh, people are interested in this and it keeps feeding it to them. And that way you keep getting responses. And it helped me a lot when I was recording with Jenny. But then I just thought, let me grab Erica and get her on the podcast and go through this because there's so much honest feedback in here. You know, and I don't know what you want to do. Do you want to just start at the top and go through it?

Or do Yeah, so I think it'd be helpful to maybe break down the difference between shame and guilt. And I was also really impressed by people's responses and their knowledge and understanding that the difference as well as their vulnerability and sharing so just want to say thank you to everyone who shared so you know, openly and vulnerably in that in their responses.

No, I agree. 100% I'm frequently bowled over by how honest everyone can be. And their their deeper understanding. Like you know, I used to say it all the time. The podcast helps me way more than it helps you. Because I learned a lot about it too, but I agree with you. I again, I've been over before And go ahead and tell me the difference between shame and guilt?

Well, I think it is, it can feel tricky because we often hear those two words together. So maybe we often think that they are linked I think the easiest way to describe it and perhaps understand it is guilt is a behaviors behavior like I did you did something wrong, you did something bad. And you can ask for forgiveness, you can correct it. It's, it's something kind of external. So I did a bad thing. Shame is, I did a bad thing. And I'm now a bad person. So you're you're internalizing whatever the action was, you're now kind of shame. You're saying bad things to yourself. It's hard to describe it without using the word. You're saying, I'm a bad person. I'm not good enough. I'm terrible. Because of the bad quote, bad thing I did. Okay.

So, I'm gonna read the definitions, because I do want to get through this, like when this is nothing else I want to understand. So guilt this is just from dictionary.com, or guilt is the fact of having committed a specific or implied offense or crime, a specified or implied offense or crime. So, I mean, is it as easy as I picked up your mug and I dropped it on the floor by mistake, I am guilty of dropping your mug. Sure, okay. And now shame, a painful feeling of humiliation or distress caused by the consciousness of wrong or foolish behavior. Okay, so I pick up your mug, I drop it by mistake, I am guilty of dropping the mug, but I'm ashamed of the act. And that's different.

Well, so it's different guilt, guilt, often it's talked about it can help move a conversation or behaviors or relationships forward. So you drop the mug and then you can say, Oh, I feel guilty. I am gonna apologize and go buy a new one. Okay, shame is I cannot believe I dropped that mug. I'm such a horrible person. And then, you know, my friend whose mic I dropped, they're never going to be my friend. They're going to hate me forever. So you're internally spiraling downward. Okay.

Yeah, psychology today.com. As the self conscious emotion, shame informs us of an internal state of inadequacy, unworthiness, dishonor, regret or disconnection, shame is a clear signal that our positive feelings have been interrupted. Okay, that is the psychology behind shame.

All right, like, yeah, that's good.

Because that wouldn't feel good. That's good. And you think people commingle these two things all the time?

I think there's definitely been an increased awareness that there is a difference. I think I think one of the responders talked about Brene Brown, who's done a lot of work on guilt and shame, you can Google Brene Brown guilt and shame and listen to her TED Talks and her readings. So I think there is there has become more awareness that there is a difference. And how one not necess guilt isn't necessarily positive. But it's it can produce something that could be positive. Do you buy that makes sense? It does.

Do you buy into the three types of guilt, natural guilt or remorse over something you did or failed to do? Or a toxic or free floating guilt? The underlying sense of not being a good person? How is that not shame? How is toxic?

I yeah, I feel like that's the same idea. I feel like it's a little bit similar guy get maybe a little bit blurry. Right.

So, alright, so back to people's answers. How did you handle feeling guilt or shame? Someone just says therapy. People point out that it's difficult to do. This person says, and I'm not gonna use anybody's name, just like I promised, obviously, connecting with others that are in the same situation and hearing their story. How does that help people?

Oh, well, I think what's Shame, shame likes to make you feel really isolated and alone, and you're the only one. That's what shame does. You're You're a bad person, and no one else understands that. And so by bike share, I mean, I wonder I'd be curious to hear people's responses of how they felt after even just sharing, you know, in the, in this thread, how they felt by reading other people's responses, and then openly sharing because shame thrives in darkness and grows in darkness and isolation. And so by connecting with others opening up, that's part of why therapy is helpful. While you know responding to these threads, talking to other people who are in a similar situation, can normalize your experience and decrease that feeling of isolation?

Yeah, this person points out that just getting out of the house and doing things it helps them. Here's an idea of the idea of giving yourself grace. Which I've always thought of as letting yourself off the hook. A little bit. I don't know if that's right or not. I also don't. If you asked me what I've been ashamed of. I mean, there's, I can't think of anything recently. Like, it's not a constant issue with me. But so is is giving yourself grace, just the conscious decision to not follow a semi conscious feeling.

If that makes sense. See that again?

Well, I'm assuming if something happens to me, and I instantly am struck with guilt or shame, that is not a conscious decision I've made it's a reaction. And then you can spiral or stay, you know, stuck in that position. So is the idea of like giving yourself grace, just consciously saying, I'm, it's okay, if I don't feel like this? I don't know.

So give it so giving yourself grace, I think it's might be helpful to to give an example. So let's say it's becoming giving yourself grace, I think is aware of your thought patterns. Like, okay, when I make a mistake, if we, we can talk about something diabetes related, or you know, or not, but if I make a mistake, and I know that my automatic thought is, I'm a bad person, because I've made a mistake, then your first step is increasing awareness that you do that. The second step is, oh, you know what? I, I'm not perfect. I'm not perfect. There are there are going to be times when I mess that up. And I'm a human being. Now I think giving yourself grace. It's interesting that you say is that letting yourself off the hook? It probably just that's situational. You know, if you're depends on one thing, yeah, giving yourself grace for something that is really clearly immoral and unethical and causing harm to other people. That's not giving yourself grace. That's maybe denial or something else. But giving yourself grace for you know what? Gosh, I've been I've been in range with my numbers, and I forgot to Pre-Bolus tonight, and now I'm out of range. I'm such a terrible person. I'm gonna, you know, you're spiraling down all those things. That's shame. Or is it? You know, what? I'm human. I forgot to Pre-Bolus. There's a lot going on. I'm going to correct it right now. And we're going to move on,

I'm shocked sometimes by the number of people who like freely say to me, I'm a bad diabetic, or I've been a bad diabetic in the past. Okay. I don't understand. I'm assuming that's something you might hear every day while you're working. But I just, I don't understand that at all. Like, it's a thing that's out of your control. And you're, you don't I mean, you're just you're you're a lion tamer, if the lion gets you once in a while you go Alright, well, I was kind of expecting that. But you know, like, I don't know, it just

okay. Yeah. Yes. So that is, I think one of the real positive things that's happening within the diabetes community. And I mean, like, professionally from endocrinologist doctors, is there's really, you're trying to bring this awareness around the language movement? And what kind of words are being used when you go to the doctors around friends family? Because there has been such an association of judgmental words. Is that a bad number? It's a is are you in? Are you in? Are you in control? Are you out of control? Is that uh oh, that Oh, 82. That's a good number. Or, Oh, 207. That's a bad number. I'm a bad diabetic because I have get bad numbers. And those are all judgment, inflicts shame inflicted type statements that either you might hear externally, or you've heard it, or you've heard it so often that now that's just your internal running and you

apply, you apply it to your situation, even if you don't mean it that way. But it strikes you like that.

Yes. And so they are really trying to make this shift around, like, how is your diabetes in control? Like, what kind of that is a really judgmental question, because we know we can't control it, we can do our best to keep it to manage it. We can do our best to keep it in range. But I mean, how many variable episodes Have you have you done? You know?

Well, yeah, and so you have to understand, right? I guess it's like, if you're gonna ride a bull, the bull is gonna throw you off eventually. That's it. You got to be willing to climb on and try. That's the That's you controlling it, like I'm going to, I'm going to try you know, and then I'll do as well as I can. And if it goes great. Yay. And if it doesn't, then I'll just try again, like Nikon Yeah, yeah, but you can't you literally can't say to yourself, I this is it. I failed. I'm a bad. I'm a bad bull rider at this point. Like it's, that's not the thing that measures out that way. You don't I mean, like firing rockets into space.

Well, and yeah, I mean, I think it also is connected to you know, we're we're assessed how we're doing Based on numerical values, a one sees time and range. And so it's easy for either our physicians or family members or our parents to say you're doing such a good job and praising the 5.8 a one C, which is great, like, let's celebrate that. But when there's so much praise around time and range and an end range a one sees, what is the converse of that. Is there so much shame around? Ah, I'm a 7.1. You know, I don't know. And I'm not even I'm like, No, you're not a 7.1. I just did it.

Yeah, yeah. There's almost it's almost, I What I've learned is that people have, I don't even want to say a difficult time separating themselves from their diabetes. Like, I think that it just, I think it is really just who you are at this point. Like, you're a person who has diabetes, you can't like I know you can like, like, they're all different ways to talk about and whatever works for you is fine. Like, I'm not my disease. I'm not this, like I, whatever gets you through the day is fine. But I mean, at the end of the day, you're in a body and that body has a thing and, you know, you're not the body but you know, when till we can put your brain in a jar. I don't know what we're gonna do about that, you know, although I think they say Walt Disney said isn't a his brain is somewhere on ice, is it?

Oh, my gosh.

But anyway, this other person said they did EMDR which a surprising number of people have brought up on this podcast. Yes. What does that stand for? I forget all the time.

Eye Movement, desensitization and ah, you lost the art as they are I lost the our

eye movement desensitization and reprocessing, therapy,

reprocessing? Thank you. Yes, no, I am. I'm a big fan of EMDR. And that's really helpful for, you know, trauma, processing trauma, and you know, grieving. And it's another form of, you know, the therapists kind of paying witness to your traumas, while giving you tools to reframe them to kind of validate the feelings that you're feeling in that in the trauma, and then also reframe them. So it's another method to kind of change your thoughts and feelings around trauma.

This person said that they have a child with type one, and they said, connecting with others, which is something we've talked about already, but she said specifically, the podcast and the Facebook group have been a major help in moving past guilt and shame. Oh, that's lovely, huh? Yes, constantly reminding myself that type one diabetes existed prior to all this technology and that people have lived full happy lives is helpful. So you feel so if you were a parent, and you have a kid with type one, you feel guilty. Just like, I feel bad that my son's not taller. Because it really did hold it back with something he was doing just two inches more of height would have been a big deal to him. And my wife side of the family is very tall and I'm adopted. And so I just assume it's my fault. And there have been times that I've thought oh, he can't do this because of my lineage. But I don't feel guilty about it. I just I wish it was different, but I'm not stuck on it. But if my kid gets type one, and I see it my family line that I can say Oh, this feels like it's my fault. And then you feel guilt about that. And then that guilt let's say I'm trying to work through people's ideas

I think so the if the guilt I would maybe suggest that might feel so guilty because then I remember reading a lot of themes around like I felt guilty because I knew I had type one and my genetic or my lineage and then I still decided to have a child and the child was undiagnosed Excuse me. Which Yeah, I think that's an really interesting and complex thought I feel like those are those are feelings that I would suggest you know, to probably process in therapy and understanding what can you what can you control in life? What can you not control? And maybe just there's some grieving around that piece that needs to happen. And Abraham

is this you're gonna you're gonna make a bad face at me. But is this is this genders? Like, does this run on gender lines?

I don't I don't think so. I think shame and guilt are pretty equitable among their distribution.

There's there's a it's, it's a stronger female response in the group. As I'm sitting here and thinking, it is probably because of me that my son's not taller, but I don't. I don't I'm not down on myself about it. Like I didn't do this, I would have chosen to be a little taller if I had a choice, where if I had any input into it, I would have worked towards it. Do you know what I mean? Like so right? I don't like why am I able to walk away from it that easy?

Well, I think there's a couple of different reasons. I would also maybe argue that did men not respond? I don't know what the, you know, the ratio is of people in the group at large. But also, is there shame preventing the person from even posting saying

they feel shame? Yeah, it's something else. Yeah.

I mean, that. Well, and yeah,

that's a great point. Because it's the The world's changed so much now that it's hard to know this is true. But a very small percentage of people are actually able to express themselves online. It's not, it's not something that most people can do. It's like, sometimes you hear, you know, like, well, here's how the online community feels about or Twitter thinks this about something political. Like you have to remember, this is a very small portion of the actual people walking on the planet, right? That is true. I was embarrassed. And I felt guilty for developing type one, as I was the only one in my family with it. And I am extremely type A, the Type A's have trouble with the diabetes. I talked to them all the time they want some sort of convey wanted an absolute control. And in it's maddening to them, and they don't get it a lot.

Yeah, I mean, I think the guilt around diagnosis is definitely present for regardless of what type you are diagnosed type one 1.5 type two, because of the either misconception or misunderstanding personally, or what how they receive public shame or the stigma of diabetes is still very much alive. And well, in terms of Did you could you have prevented this? Could you have not prevented this? There are categories the way how we even talk about it type one is, classically people say it's the one that you couldn't prevent. So what does that mean that type two is the one you could have? And there's shame around that. So I think, maybe just an understanding of you know, what, you got diabetes, we don't really know exactly. I mean, we know kind of why, but not really. Let's just accept that and and move forward without trying to catch up. But we want to do that. We want to find reasons why

Yeah, oh, I expect that when you see an online disagreement where someone does not want to be lumped in, I'm making air quotes with the person with type two diabetes. That's totally because if they, I believe if they find commonality with them, then they won't be able to put up that kind of like that, that emotional wall that says, I didn't do anything to get this. You know what I mean? Like it's a, I think it's a castle that they hide behind sometimes. And if you let everybody into the castle, then we're all in the same group. And then if they're all in the same group, then I don't have this excuse anymore. Meanwhile, none of that's real, because you didn't do anything to get your diabetes. And yes, yeah, right.

It's yeah, that's, that's a whole other episode. Yeah, for

sure. Okay. This person talks about like denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance, having to work through those different stages, about their own about their old lifestyle. Oh, I do see that a lot. That's where the food argument comes in. Right.

I hear the grieving of posts of the previous lifestyle, and, and particularly from caregivers to of grieving for their child of how, you know, it was so much easier before, and I feel so badly that now we have to do X, Y, and Z to make my child feel quote, normal. Yeah. So that there's a lot of grief around that. And that's definitely the initial kind of diagnosis stage going through the grief stages, which I wanted to note real quick on the grief stages. I one of your responders was really great. And explaining that and also noting that it's not linear, even though we read about it and Google and there's 12345 or 1234567, but it's not always in that beautiful clean order and it's messy and it's cyclical and that's totally normal if that's how you experience it. Yeah,

they're not going to happen numbered your experience well, I guess that is how movies set up right? They do it through the denial nom on to this and yeah, yes. Yeah. And not only that, but you're saying you could work through anger or bargaining as an example and then come back around and experience it again.

Yes, yeah. And maybe you're in this in this in the you know, stage of acceptance. And then there's a new stage of life hormones are shifting or, you know, pregnancy or injury, you know, whatever it is or another Your diagnosis and that might trigger kind of the anger, you know, bargaining stages all over again. And that's okay. Yeah. But hopefully at that point, you maybe have worked through it. And you have more tools to process through those stages.

Yeah, the bargaining part is so sad. Like from like, from a, from a third party perspective, it's just, it's hard. It's hard to see somebody talking to, you know, God or the universe or whatever. And begging basically, for something to go back to a different thing. Geez, all right. Yes.

There, there was, go ahead.

No, no, no, I have a different thought. So if you have this, I'm gonna let you go.

I was just one other theme that I noticed was coming up a lot in the in the thread was kind of, I think, both guilt and shame around why didn't I catch it sooner? Or why didn't doctors catch it sooner, which is more blame, but I ended, and rightly so. Right? There might be opportunities for frustration and anger. But I noticed that that was a real significant thread that people are working through of a topic, working through why didn't I catch it earlier? I knew and my gut. And why didn't my doctors figure this out sooner? Yes, it's a real pain point. And it's common. It's common

I have. So I feel that around. It's interesting. I don't feel that around diabetes, because diabetes was going to come for Artem. I do think that around other things like digestion issues like I'm very, I am angry that it took me so long to figure that out. Because I think of it as wasted or lost time. That's why and it's that is, I'm sure I've said this to you before Erica. But if I have something I'm stuck on, I hate the idea of wasted time. And when I when I look back to see that someone knew they were wasting my time that is even, that's worse. That's actually worse for me too. I don't know if there's a what the psychological component of that is, but I despise having my time wasted. I mean, and it's painful, it's painful. They're real. I just It bothers me a big, big picture, little picture. I can't even be in a 15 minute conversation I'm not interested in. That's why I like I work so hard even to keep the podcast going. Because I don't want somebody to look back later and think, oh, there was seven minutes in the middle there could have done without that. You know, like I wanted to keep moving. So. And by the way, there are different feelings about the stages of grief. You've heard. I've heard people say there are seven stages. There are five stages. There's so there are different, like theories, like professional theories around that as well. Yes, okay. After two years, I realized that I was going to be the best for my daughter if I was healthy too. So I started an exercise regimen that helped me feel healthier. also helped me mentally. Okay, if I get too crabby, I tell my husband, I have to go to workout. That's good that Okay, so that's a good example of something. We talked about that. Jenny and I talked about it recently about just how important exercise is to people state of mind. Being educated, made me feel empowered. This person says, the guilt I felt after my daughter's diagnosis almost sunk me her grafts were awful. She felt awful. I kept making terrible mistakes and began doubting every move I made. I didn't make a dose without two people checking me. Before checking my math, listen to the podcast where I think like a pancreas read some books. Realize the hospital had given us the wrong tools. And maybe there's a better way. So this is this is the next thing right? Like you're busy feeling badly and no one's prepared you and how do you even know where to go get the information from? Mm hmm. I was just gonna say that. I've spoken to people who have come out the other side of that after a week, a month a year and some people after 10 or 15 years and those I've had a couple of experiences with people that I will never forget who's talking about wasted time realize that they weren't given the right tools that they had been banging their head against this wall for a decade and that their health was declining and that they had had experiences they didn't need to have and there was a different answer and no one ever told it to them. That That one's tough.

That is That is tough. Yeah, I think that the when you're in that initial stage of what what do we do things aren't working people do feel can help themselves feel better by they get they want to do something right so I'm gonna go Google things I'm gonna get education I'm gonna you know people find your podcast, find other resources find community. And so that is but that often is hard to do. Sometimes if you are it came over you it was this person or the person before that you just said that they were just drowning. hanging in the gilt. And so it's hard to take that first step forward. And so maybe that's when, you know, hopefully, if there are family members or friends to kind of help give you that initial nudge, to take that first step.

This person said that they use, they write about stoicism and Eastern philosophies. Drew, drew on the perspective I gained working in a hospice. I live a healthy lifestyle. I remind myself repeatedly that we're not promised tomorrow, this is where the at least it's not cancer sentence comes from that that's this, right? Because because it's hard to talk to somebody without diabetes, who has some perspective who won't say, well, at least it wasn't something worse, you know. And so Oh, I worked in a hospice ticket to give herself a perspective. That's interesting. All right, these are really helpful. Beginning my biggest hurdle was Why didn't I get sooner? We talked about that. Everyone kept saying that I did it. Oh, this is interesting, right? What happens when people are telling you You did a great job. But you don't think that's true? Then that rings hollow, and it doubles down on your Shame?

Shame. So like doing a great job with diabetes management or just in general?

Like diabetes? Yeah. Yeah.

So I would be curious if you know what, doing a great job. At you know, it just going back to the language piece, I know, I'm really kind of focused on that at the moment of, we're doing a great job, you're doing the best you can, but then that person is receiving it as well. No, actually, I don't I don't think I'm doing that. Great. So I would wonder I'd be more curious on what is that person's kind of internal self talk? Is it more is is it being driven by shame and negative self talk that no matter what any kind of external praise is not landing? But then that might lead to Yeah, either withdrawal? Or more shame. That is, that's another kind of point or process that I would encourage, you know, maybe some more therapy or exploration.

Yeah. Yeah, this is slightly off the topic of this thread for a second. But I recorded the other day with a lovely woman, late 30s. And has type one. And she just openly like spoke about how she manages like, everyday with alcohol. Like, she's like, I can't know, I have wine. A lot of wine every day. This is how I get through my life. And she was a business owner, and a, and a parent and a spouse and seemed completely reasonable. And, you know, lovely. And I thought, wow, that's we and we talked for a while about that, like, we ended up talking about this gonna seem like a left turn. But we ended up talking about how I don't see the difference. She worked in a restaurant, she owns a restaurant, and I started bringing it up. Like I'm like, is it true? What I hear about restaurants behind the scenes, and she's like, What do you hear? I'm like, it's a big orgy, right? Sex, drugs, alcohol, and she's like, yes, definitely. Okay, contour next.com forward slash juice box. I'm looking at it right now. I'm talking to today about a blood glucose meter. And many of you might be thinking like, well, I have a CGM, but I don't need a meter Scott. Yes, you do. And if you don't have a CGM, then you definitely double need a meter. And you want it to be accurate. And you want it to be easy to carry. And you want the test strips to not like just, you know, get messed up all the times you went Second Chance test strips. These are the things that the Contour Next One blood glucose meter offered to you. Quality, convenience, accuracy, what more could you want contour an x.com forward slash juicebox. Some people, this is interesting. Some people are paying right now through their insurance, more money for test trips and meters than it would cost to buy the contour in cash, which blows my mind. So you can check that out on the website. You can also look into buying yourself online there's a big button that says buy now takes you to things like CVS, Amazon, Walgreens, Walmart, Kroger, Meijer, target Rite Aid, all places you can buy right now online, some of the prices are insane. So you know, check out all the links because some of them very just listen, I don't like this. You know what I mean? I'm like, I'm trying to put a bunch of excitement behind this. And I know we're talking about a blood glucose meter. You're like, Well, Scott is just a meter but it's really not. It's an incredibly accurate meter. It gives you it The accuracy is, it's the whole thing you understand. Like, it's just you deserve to know what number you're dealing with it and you're buying a meter anyway, you're buying test strips, and you're buying a meter. Like, think about the futility of this. Just think about the frustration you might have, if you've already put out the money, and you've got the meter in the strips, and it's not accurate. Like you've done all the things, and you're not getting accuracy, you might as well get accuracy, get the Contour. Next One, I feel like I'm babbling, but at the same time, I feel completely clear headed. Like I'm making a ton of sense, you're already buying a meter, get a good one. That's pretty much it. Contour next one.com forward slash juice box links in the show notes, links at juicebox podcast.com. When you click on my links, you're helping the podcast. But I'm going to touch by type one dot word right now. Go to programs, scroll down with my little mouse until I see annual conference. And let's see if they've put in the date yet. Stay tuned for details in the 2023 touched by type on conference. While there's no details here on the website yet, but I'll give you a detail. I'll be speaking at it. That's correct. Oh, there's some other people here that are going to be speaking. Look at this. Let me take a looky loo interesting, or is this from last year? This might be from last year? Hmm, I don't see my pretty face yet. Maybe they're saving me till the end. You think? Oh, no, it's not coming. I'm still watching. I don't know that person. Oh, I know that person. I know that person. That person I don't know. Oh, that's me. I'm right there. Go check it out. Touch by type one.org. They might not have all the details for 2023 yet, but I've got the most important detail. I'll be there. You should come meet me. Sex, Drugs, alcohol. And she's like, yes, definitely not. And, and she's in she said, it's not uncommon for like cooks to do small bumps of cocaine to get through long shifts and servers. And she's like, this is not an uncommon thing. And as my first response was like, Oh, that seems wrong. Until I realized how many people are on Adderall or, you know, using legal drugs to do the same thing. Or we're drink nine pots of coffee every day. So they're like, Yeah, you know, again, I started thinking about like, what's the difference? Like, I mean, I didn't see a big difference. Like, theoretically, as I was talking about it, all I really saw and this is why I brought it up was someone trying to, like, get through their coping, they're trying to get through something that they don't understand well enough to dissolve out of their out of their mind, you know? And I wonder, it makes me wonder about all these people like, like, you know, I mean, you're hearing guilt, you're hearing shame you're hearing go to therapy, try this. Try that. But I wonder how many people are doing other things to try to numb that pain? And And I'm assuming it might be a lot actually

just got it. Right. Yeah, you is it? Are you using whatever you're using? Are you using it to medicate to celebrate to, you know, increase your energy to numb the the harsh realities? Yeah, I think it's it is an interesting point of how else how else are we coping?

Among other things, this person said that they use prayer to remind themselves that every day is a new day, that they could do better tomorrow, that sort of thing. Did you see anything in here that you wanted to bring up as I looked through it?

One thing I thought was interesting, you know, I don't know if it was actually mentioned. But this idea of either locus of control or self efficacy, I think is an interesting topic or theme that maybe is underneath some of the statements and thinking just more around like management and I remember reading about like, either my child's my child's graphs are bad or I feel really guilty around. What I incorrectly Bolus for my child or for I think there was a type one adult who was posting in there. And I think it's an interesting theme that the self efficacy, which is a little bit different than you know, your your Locus of Control, which can be internal or external, which is more kind of the personality, construct versus self efficacy. at which you can have kind of higher low self efficacy, efficacy. And if you have a high sense, you have the belief in your ability and capacity to act in certain ways to reach or achieve your goals. And so no matter what kind of challenge you have, or you know, threat or challenge you face, you have the belief in yourself that you can reach that goal. And the low obviously, is the opposite that you you view difficult tasks or, or personal as personal threats, and you you kind of believe that you might not be able to achieve them as strong and when thought you know, how to increase self efficacy is to engage in the mastery experience. So how do you do that? Just one quick idea that I heard from this, the ADA conference this weekend, is looking at diabetes, as there's so many things we have to manage, right? All there's all the variables, there's when do I take it? How do I take it, all of the things, the insulin, it's just trying to focus on one goal, like just one thing, like maybe you're going to Pre-Bolus Sooner or actually before your meal. And this is for people with with Dexcom. Look, you in order to increase self efficacy, you need to see the results and say, Wow, I this one goal, I made this one change. And now I see the difference between last week and this week. And seeing that data increases your belief in your and your self efficacy that you can continue to do so and so in the Dexcom CGM reports, you can do the compare analysis. And I guess a lot of people don't do that. So that was just one one tip in terms of this belief that when you're feeling so guilty, and you're feeling overwhelmed by shame, or you're feeling stuck in management, this is just one one tool that I thought was really helpful would in terms of Yeah, what do

you think it would? Do you think it could backfire on you? If you saw a backslide? Would you assume that the momentum is going that way and give up?

Well, I would maybe adjust say, Okay, if you're if you're making the if you're Pre-Bolus thing sooner, and you mean like if the graph was not it didn't improve? Yeah. What

if I tried? And I was like, well, now I'm worse off than I was last week that see now in my heart, what I would do is I would just try something different. Right? Right, right. I'm thinking about it almost like when you hear people talk about, like a weight loss goal, for example, right? They see like, Oh, I lost two pounds this week. And they're like, well, I could probably do that again next week. Yeah, it feels like momentum is going up. But what happens if you go on a weight loss program? And you're seven days later, you're like, geez, I gained two pounds? And like, you know, so not that you shouldn't try but like, what do you do? If you don't see what you want? Right away? Like, how do you? How do you? Is it fake it till you make it? Is that is that it?

Well, then I would say that would be data point for you. Or if you were my clients, that would be data to say, Okay, we actually really need to work on the self talk, and what is your narrative, if if you make this one goal, and you make this change, and nothing improves, or it or it reverses, and you're spiraling and saying, I'm never going to be able to do this, this is nothing ever is going to change and you're kind of stagnant in that. In that place of shame and a negative self talk. I would say, Okay, let's we're gonna pause on this goal setting. And let's let's work on you know, what, what are the thoughts and lies that you're believing about yourself?

Do some people just need like, like a staff sergeant behind them barking? Because that's a very popular form of a podcast, believe like, like very, very popular, like somebody just standing in front of you once a week and telling you shut up, you can do it go. Like, like, or some version of that, you know, however they end up or whatever their tagline is, that fits on their T shirt. But, but that's but some people need that right? Some people need to be driven and some people need to be coaxed and some people need to do it on their own. And so like, so how do you know who you are? I guess well, I

would maybe pay attention to how do you respond when somebody barks at you? Like, yes, I'm gonna go out and run that mile. Or, you know, heck no, what do you Who are you to tell me what to

do? You are and then lean into that thing. Right? Right. So maybe

you're like, Okay, I'm responding in a defensive manner. I might need a little bit softer touch or some more coaching that is more of a partnership as opposed to authority figure, and I'm this submissive person tells me what to do.

Right? My mom did not respond well to like, a lot of positive stuff. So what carrot and stick her through her her cancer treatment. Or you were just like your mom, you want to get to this right? You have to do this today to get to that. And she's like, right on. And then she did it. If you said, Hey, Mom, you're doing a really great job. She couldn't, she could not like, see herself in that statement at all. So we stopped, we stopped using as much positive reinforcement and went more with Come on, if you want to get here, you're gonna have to do this, but not as much

reward reward reinforcement as opposed to like, the positive encouragement. Yeah, it

was funny how one because I went right to It's so strange, because I don't come off like this. But I went right to what I would want, which is like somebody to tell me

human nature. Terrific.

So, so I knew I would want that I gave her that she didn't want that. I was like, Alright, then stop. And it's, it's interesting, too, how when it's not somebody in my home, it was easy for me to see that she doesn't want this, I'll give her what she wants. But when you're around people all the time, and you're not thinking, I think that's what people miss about being in like a family is that things are happening, and you're saying things and you're walking from room to room or running from one job to another, whatever you're doing, you say the thing that occurs to you. And you know, eventually you look up and you're like, I mean, I there are things that I tried to help people in my family with that I know for certain, it's not how they respond to it. But in a, in a quick situation, it is what occurs to me to say, and then if I have enough time to stop myself, I'll go, that's not what this person wants, they want this. I'm almost a better parent remotely to my kids than I am when they're here. Part of me thinks I should send my wife away for a couple of weeks. And she would like, because I would have a pause moment.

I was gonna say there's there's space in between, it's all it is. It's just

a little time to stop and think, Okay, here's what I really need here. And maybe if all if everybody in this group had the time to stop and wonder, like what would help me instead of being in the spiral, say, what, what do I need here to stop? And how do I get that thing? Right?

Yes. And so the pause the break, I mean, that's, you know, everyone is, is probably heard and been spoken to and read about, you know, just pausing and breathing. But it does work, even though I know it's hard to implement before responding, you know, and before responding externally to others. And before responding to yourself. Oh, so yeah.

And it's not a conscious thing. It's not like everyone who's married, don't know what I'm saying here. There's a moment in your life where something happens, and you have a thought, and you're like, this is gonna go poorly. If I say this out loud. And there's a devil on your shoulder. That's like, let's do it. And you just kind of go, that's consciously I don't mean consciously. I mean, like, just like, I don't know, I think, yeah, find it sounds so trite, but find a way to like, take a breath. And step back, see everything, macro firm and see the big picture and say to yourself, I feel this way. Because of this. I need to not feel like this, who's around me, or what can I find that will support that feeling and help me pull myself out of this hole because it's all bull. It's all lies. Like, it's just all lies your brains telling you or your hearts telling you or whatever you however you want to think about it. Here. This one's super interesting from this person. Person says they were diagnosed as an adult in their mid 20s. Already had a child to female person, I think that's important to say. She said her extended family had always been very ignorant and rude. And relating weight to diabetes, like this is just like, normal conversation, right? So then she gets type one, and is now like, Oh, snap. Now that diabetes moniker is on me and she she's, she doesn't eat around them the way she wants to because she's afraid they're gonna look at her and think, Oh, see diabetes food. Meanwhile, I mean, I don't think foods an issue for this person based on what they're saying. But but it's just the that it's become one. And yeah, because she was she was as long as she wasn't, this is very interesting, right? As long as she didn't have diabetes, then they're both talking didn't really impact her. But then suddenly this, she was in the target of that. And they had predisposed her to realize that you should feel bad if this is your moniker. It's very interesting.

Yes, yeah. Well, and I just want to say I'm, that is such a painful place to be and I'm so sorry. That that is your, you know, your life and your narrative with with that extent with your extended family. And I don't remember the end of the post of where she's at or if she's found support or help but

she says she tries to push the feelings away with the guilt and shame linger. She believes she's too much of a people pleaser. So I tell you

what to avoid to avoid conflict to avoid that. Yeah, that's, that's really painful.

I'm sure I'm not perfect at it. But I try very hard not to say things that could later come back. Like I don't know, I don't I'm, I'm suffering for an example. But like, I don't want to come down hard on the side of something. Because what if one day, my kid, like, like you don't mean like it would, I guess let me an easy to understand examples. If you run around for 15 years, while your kids growing up yelling about the gays, the gays, the gays, and then you know, and you're and you seem intolerant and silly. And then one of your kids realizes they're gay one day, how are they ever going to? Like, tell forget, tell you how are they going to feel? Okay? You don't I mean, if they look back and see that their parent doesn't think this is a good thing. And that would apply to anything. Right?

Yes. Hmm. Yeah. I mean, I think yeah, being as parents, we just being mindful of, you know, our, our opinions, how are we expressing them? Our children are sponges. And as they are growing up, what, you know, they're learning who they are, they're figuring out their identity. And gosh, yeah, how sad because I'm pretty certain that child wouldn't want to run to daddy, and disclose this or seek comfort or acceptance. I mean, they're there, hopefully, there would be hope for you know, you know, I don't think restoration and redemption but being wild,

like you play out the rest of that story, I would imagine that it's a coin flip, maybe you go back to your parents and say like, Hey, I'm gay. And they'd be like, I love you. I don't care. Like maybe my ass, you know what I mean? Like, I don't know, like, I don't really feel that way. Or it was something that I thought was, I mean, there are plenty of things that were colloquially, like, the butt of jokes through the 70s and 80s, that people said all the time, I would imagine they don't hold as actual beliefs. It's just what you said, you know, but not the, and then that's not to make an excuse for it. It's just that I think that's what could end up happening, but you're not going to, you're not going to give it 20 years later, if you're the kid like you're not going to come back and be able to break through that you're gonna think this person definitely doesn't like XYZ. And I'm not gonna get involved in telling them. Oh, my gosh. Is that what we're hearing Erica, we shouldn't speak to each other kids. I was diagnosed at 30 years old, I had immense feelings of shame when it happened as if I had failed. I analyzed that a lot because I could not understand the feeling. My body was in terrible shape. My sugar's were over 500. And yet, and yet, instead of feeling compassionate, and caring towards myself, my body, I just felt like a loser. Doesn't make sense, right? Later on, I realized that our human way of thinking always seeks cause outcome patterns. And so we can understand and explain the world around us. Yeah, I talked about this a lot, right? Like that, you know, there are just ways people's brains work. And they don't always help you. So this is her brain trying to what like, what is it? What is happening here? I don't feel well, like, can't find compassion for myself. So you can see it intellectually, but you can't do it.

I don't know that one. And you're trying to figure out, you know, cause effects. What did I do? You know, a lot of times in initial diagnosis, and I'm meeting with clients with diabetes or their caregivers, a lot of conversation is spent around trying to figure out how and why did this happen? And that's part of you know, the denial bargaining and battle with acceptance. Because a lot of times we can explain things why bad things happen. The you can, you know, you you tripped and fell and you have a scraped knee. There's a cause and effect. And there are other times like with chronic with this chronic illness, we can't Yeah, explain it and that is really really frustrating with how our human mind works.

So this is interesting. I'm pretty deep into this thread now. And there's a post here from a person who I've who I've witnessed be harsh to people not harsh but they know about what can go wrong with diabetes if you don't take it seriously. They're and they're always very direct with people and and if you if you read them and didn't know about them that they were a decent nice person. You I can see people reading it and being like, what's wrong with this person? You know, like, why are you being like that? But one of the more thoughtful responses about counseling, understanding your grief, giving yourself like time min grace and forgiving yourself. It's it's very interesting because when when, when faced with the question, the answer is legitimately right there. But when you see the person in public, you wouldn't think that the person writing that stuff has these thoughts. I hope that was clear. There's something in there, right? Like, like, because I know this person deeply cares that other people get good information so that they don't have like, like significant poor outcomes, health outcomes. But when they try to help somebody with it, they come off a little rough, maybe? I don't know exactly. But isn't it interesting that the people who seem to care the most, I think that's passion? Like, right, like, I think I think that when you see people argue about food, in both ways, I think it's passion. And I'll make it, I'll make my, when you see somebody say, Look, don't eat any carbs. And if you do, you'll keep your blood sugar here, and these are normal blood sugars, and you're going to be fine. This is what helped me you often will hear them say, I didn't know I used to struggle before but I don't struggle enough. They feel like they found an answer. And they did. And they're trying very desperately to give it to somebody. I also think that on the other side of that, that can make people think, Well, you're not going to take something from me. Alright, diabetes has already taken something may I wonder how often people are? Have you ever heard the phrase hate listen? Like, I'm aware that there are some people who hate listen to the podcasts. They don't like me, but they can't stop listening to it. I wonder, I wonder sometimes if people with diabetes, don't hate eat, like if they don't go, whew, I can have this. I can figure this out. You can't take this freedom from me. I wonder how often that happens with food they don't even want. They're just proving it get any mean?

I bet all the time, whether consciously or unconsciously, right. And whether you're bolusing for it or not, you know, there's probably all sorts of reasons why. But I imagined that happens. Yeah, it's just occurred to me while we've been in the power, right?

Yeah, it's just gonna show your power here. Like, I was wondering how many people are eating something that they, they just like, I don't even want this. I don't like this. I don't want this. But it's a thing someone told me I can't have. So I'm going to eat it.

I'm going to like, well, maybe maybe even you know, as for our younger, you know, our children with type one. Where, you know, we I think we did an episode on this, you know, sneaking, sneaking food? Is that because they really are hungry and want the Skittles or whatever, chips? Or is it because I know I can't have it? And I'm going to eat it anyway.

Yeah. You and I have talked about this before I shouldn't have Yeah, because I'm confused by the idea that somebody would like, for example, a weight loss app, where you report what you've eaten inside of it that no one sees, but the person using it, and sometimes they'll lie in the app. Oh, yeah. And I'm like, I don't understand, like, no one's gonna see this, and you know, you're lying. So but that's whatever mechanism makes you do that is that's the, that's the part or something, you're lying to yourself, or your, your brain is lying to you somehow. Right?

Well, and maybe what's driving that action is is shame, right? Like, I feel, I feel so ashamed that I had four cookies instead of two. So I'm just gonna say two on the app. So I see that it'll maybe it'll make me feel a little bit better because I feel so ashamed inside, that I that I cheated, or, you know, whatever the word is,

this person says this thread is triggering. But everyone's comments are good to read. Maybe it's time that I start meeting with my therapist again. I thought that was like one of the more thoughtful things that happen in there because because you can I get the idea of something being triggering to somebody. But look at what happens if you're able to just like, you know, I don't know, make it through it and sees like, you know, sometimes you I don't know, like, I could be completely wrong about this for some people and write about it for others, but you can't just back down every time you hear something that makes you uncomfortable. You'll get stuck in that spot forever, right?

Yeah. So when I remember reading that comments and thinking, well, there's that person has probably done already some self awareness work. And so they're aware of that they're feeling triggered and know what works for them. How to process that.

Yeah, and I'm down here to your point I want to bring up again, you said Brene Brown stuff that people should listen to that would help them understand it more. Yeah, me. It's not me. I don't understand it enough to I, I understand enough to recognize what I see in people. I don't know what to do next. You know, like for them I probably wouldn't know what to do for myself either. But, you know, I can't read the words, I hate myself every time a blood sugar gets out of control, and not see that this is something we should be talking about. You know, like, just because I don't have the answer today doesn't mean that anybody should ignore this if they feel this way. It's why I asked you to do an episode about mom guilt. And yeah, the other stuff, I'm just trying to reflect back what I'm seeing people talk about, I guess, well,

and just in going back to sorry, the language piece, again, is what I do, you know, the know, the added control piece, you know, like, even just the way it's so ingrained in us and I did it myself already. I said, I'm a, you know, whatever your we say I'm a number. And instead just I think part of that self awareness piece is how are we describing our management style to ourselves and to others. And really being mindful of, you know, we don't have numbers that are out of control, we are not out of control, people, we have numbers that are out of range, and just seeing if that making that small change that just that language piece, how that might affect your mental state, that might be one of the first steps to try.

This is interesting, I feel guilty about the money it takes to manage diabetes, but that's not how they said it. Guilt for the money it takes to keep me alive. Right, so what so what does that sentence tell you that there's a level of self worth? That's lost there too, right? Like, am I am I worth this financial effort?

So guilt for the for the money spent? And I would maybe say suspect some shame underneath that, as well. I don't know I don't want to project into that

shame. When I have to call in sick from work to take care of myself. I think I've just learned to do what it takes to wake up the next day. So

yeah, it's a shame because I'm maybe what's underneath that is because I'm a bad. I'm a bad quote, bad diabetic, and I don't even know how to take care of myself. So I had now I have to call into work, but yet we still have to spend money on me. That still there feels like there might be a shame spiral in there.

Yes. This person just said this is just very interesting to hear how people work through this. This person said the podcast helped them that their most of the guilt came from blood sugar, out of range blood sugars podcast helped them keep the blood sugars in range. So this is, you know, I don't think this is like a big secret. But the way I talked about diabetes was my effort for people not to feel this way.

That's the that's the self efficacy piece. Right? You're you're giving them education, pro tips, information on how to improve their confidence and self efficacy and managing

my my very layman's opinion was that I saw people having a lot of different problems. And to me, it seemed like a lot of them would be alleviated if they just knew how to make almost unconscious decisions about their diabetes that would keep all of these things from being an issue, right? Like almost like an inoculation to the other problems. Like, you know what I mean? Like maybe I could, maybe I could give them a vaccine that would stop them from feeling shame later. And to that, I mean, like, just, like, you just see people talking about, you know, my blood sugar gets high. I feel badly about you know, I feel badly emotionally. I feel badly physically. I feel like I don't know what I'm doing. You know, I'm worried now that my blood sugar's gonna get lower later. I'm worried what if I'm alone when this happens? And I would think well, what would stop all that it would be if the spike didn't happen, right? Why does this spike happened, so that I paid attention to what people were doing? And I was like, I don't think they know how to use insulin. I honestly think that a large portion of people's psychological issues around having diabetes could be at least quelled by understanding how their insulin works better. And getting to the point where they don't have to be thinking about it constantly.

Yes, I think that would help. And I think where people might get stuck is that feeling of overwhelm, overwhelm Ness, right? As so where do I start? What do I do? And so I think going back to just like just choosing one small goal, and whether it's working through your one of the series or just saying, I'm just gonna focus on my Basal or I'm just gonna focus on the right number for my Lantis Yeah, injection, whatever it is, no, it's one thing at a time.

It's why I've tried really hard to simplify. I mean, because that really is the problem with diabetes, right is when you go to a professional, they start saying things to you like post pragnell and and In Yeah, hyperglycemia? And did you know about the glycemic load of that you're like, wow, what are we talking about? Like, there's three phrases. I don't know, let's keep going. This is fun. You know, like so, to me, it's, you know, it's say it's simply and make it actionable. And make it so that it works like Don't say things to people that don't work. Because then they they go down these rabbit holes, and they don't have any, you know, there's no resolution, and then it just feels like a waste of time. And it feels like there's no hope. And I there is hope. I mean, I know this starts off by shame and guilt, but yeah, Basal insulin settings around your carb ratios, understanding the different impacts of foods. It's kind of it like, like, you know, like, once you can learn how to do that, and then the rest come so like, you know, see a blood sugar go to 160 and go, alright, well, I'll fix it. Like, you know what I mean? Like, let me just and

grace when you make a mistake, yeah. Right on, like, it's not

gonna be like, I see with Arden, like learning how to take care of herself away at college. She's okay. Like, like, she's not upset if her blood sugar jumps to 200 and sits there and she has trouble to bring it down. But when it gets high enough that she doesn't feel well, then I see the rest of it happen. That's when the emotional like, like, pressure burden, not sure what to call Wait, wait weights, the right word, right? That's when the weight of the diabetes starts to hit her. She doesn't feel good on top of she starts realizing like, I mess this up, which I assume like leads to I probably shouldn't have eaten that. And like all of those thoughts that probably start to like, jump on top of her.

And now it's really interfering with my daily life.

Yeah, no messing it up. No, I

can't think or I can't go to class or I can't go to work, or I feel like you don't feel awful. I

just feel like sickly. Yeah, yeah. And that's, and then, when you see that, from the outside, how you comment on it to another person or where you try to help them? It's, I'm gonna just tell you right now, like, if you got to be married to learn this, just let me I'll let you skip over. You don't talk about problems while they're happening. You talk about them at another time. Right. Like when you're hanging off the cliff. That's a pro tip. Yeah, there's a pro tip. When your car's hanging off a cliff, you don't go you drive too fast. Save that for next week, when we get out of the damn car, don't fall off the cliff. But you know, I told you so is not very helpful. And it's not just not helpful, I think and diabetes, it's hurt. It's really hurtful. Like, it just you're just holding people back. If you do that, you have to, I just kind of make a mental note. And like a week later, I'll say something like, Hey, do me a favor, like, you know, when your new CGM, like get swapped? Like let's test on the first day because you know, you got you on if you remember, you got low on the first day, because your blood sugar was actually lower than it was reading if we would have calibrated then I think you wouldn't have got low and you know, like so at least you're removed a little bit from the the irritation of me calling calling you things are heightened. Yeah, me calling you at three o'clock in the morning to let you know that your blood sugar's low is not the time to remind you that you probably should have calibrated before you went to bed. So anyway, I'm learning in America.

That's good. That's good. Well, that's called that's your pausing your That's it? That's a long pause.

Yeah, trust me, they're very helpful that way. Is there anything you don't think we put in here that we should have?

I think what maybe just one thought around just thinking from my younger clients, like my teenage clients with diabetes, who speak about guilt and shame with me, can come from both both internally their own kind of thoughts, but also just being aware as the caregiver, the questions that maybe you're asking them is, you know, how, your, your 300 What did you eat? What did you do? How could you have done this, and maybe you're delivering that in the most, you know, calm, grounded way. Those are internalized, as I'm a bad person, I did something wrong. And maybe they did eat and forget to Bolus maybe they ate and intentionally didn't Bolus, but the number and the commentary about the number is really a significant moment to partner or or inflict shame, or to encourage and so I think one of the things to just be mindful that you could even practice with yourself as a caregiver is cautious is a really hard moment. And diabetes is really frustrating. And you can engage with your child in that moment of like, how are you feeling right now, this is really frustrating that we have to even deal with this. How can we together address this number? That's not bad. That's not out of control. It's just out of range. and that could really, you know, shape that moment and how your your teen or young child interacts with you when those numbers when they they already feel pretty badly about having a number. It's out of range. I just wanted to speak to that. And you can also model that to yourself, because you might feel badly, because maybe you're the one who who forgot to Bolus as the caregiver and just say, gosh, you know, this is really frustrating. diabetes is really irritating. Sometimes it's going to crack this.

I just saw one today where the person said, like, we were eating something, and then the kid asked for more, and they gave too much. And she's like, I just blanked, like, completely forgot the kid had diabetes. And I wanted to respond back and say, if you don't think everyone here hasn't done that, like, of course they have, you know, and it's going to happen again. So I'm trying to go back. Do you have a website? Do you have an extra minute?

I have five minutes, five minutes.

All right. Yeah, I'm gonna go over this last post here because I think it pulls everything together. This person said that I'm finding ways to let go. Because it was literally making me sick. Horrible diagnosis trauma. Kid was semi unconscious before they got them to help. Then these are the their words I almost killed, killed them. When I hit a vein with Lantus, which is a, you know, it's not something you could control. Then I fell asleep, woke up to my family calling my phone because the kids 41, two hours down gets down to 23. But says that that experience still haunts them to this day. I've had an experience similar where there was a really, really low blood sugar, and I have to tell you, like, what it was over, like I barely made it out of Arden's room before I fell apart, you know, like I held it together long enough to get out and close the door. They said they went to a therapist, because the guilt and fear of felt like it was killing them. Now the therapist says, Well, this is not your burden to carry. And of course, that was the wrong thing to say. And the mother like is like that I'm done with you when I left there. And then. So they have backup plans, like she set things in place to try to, like, alleviate some of this stuff. But then realize that like she's like losing weight, her hair's falling out from stress. And then she hit that like, you know, oxygen mask moment, she's like, I'm not going to be here to help if I'm, if I kill myself trying to do this, I decided that I had to get comfortable with him experiencing so much that I never wanted him to replace the thoughts of failure and guilt with a mental visual of him happy, healthy and content. And I learned from my experiences modified how I react next, let next time, forgive myself for my mistakes. This is a this is what I talked about in the podcast.

That is the AI that is so heart wrenching, but painful, but then ends with kind of beauty and hope and self forgiveness. And sounds like that person has done a probably a lot of internal work, and shifting her mindset of how she perceived diabetes, how she perceived her son, and how she perceives herself in the moments in the past and moving forward. That's all she did a lot of work.

I've often encapsulated this idea into a couple of sentences in the show, which just says that, if you want to, if you want to learn diabetes, you're gonna have to have these experiences you can't like you can't will them to not happen, you actually kind of need them to happen. But eventually, you know, you'll learn, you just do these things. And the experience helps you and then it's not a problem the next time, but you have to go through it once for that to be your you know, your understanding later. So it's just hard because you have to, you have to go through the hard part to get to the better part.

And that's where, you know, the grief stages might kind of rear their ugly head with all these new first time experiences. And we talk a lot I talk a lot about that.

Yep. Yeah. So you're fighting against what needs to happen. And people's kind of human responses to when things go wrong. They are almost two different things. And so all right, so good luck, everybody.

Thank you again for sharing everybody.

No, it was wonderful, wasn't it? Like this is really one of the moments I've been very, immensely proud of the group of people that you know, anybody wants to check it out. Juicebox Podcast, type one diabetes on Facebook. It's a private group. But um, but there's, gosh, there's almost 35,000 people in it now. So Wow. Yeah. Get some good feedback in there. All right. Well, Erica, thank you. I know. I've kept you too long. I appreciate it.

Of course. Thank you.

First, of course, I'd like to thank Erika remind you Erica forsyth.com 626-344-2263. Erica is currently able to help you virtually If you're in California, Utah, Oregon and Florida it and she is adding more states as we speak. Erica forsyth.com I also want to thank the Contour Next One blood glucose meter remind you to go to contour next one.com forward slash juicebox. And of course touched by type one.org. When you support the sponsors using my links, you're supporting the show keeping it free and plentiful. What else we got for you? Oh, the Facebook group that you heard so much about Juicebox Podcast type one diabetes, private Facebook group. Check it out. It really is pretty great. Thank you so much for listening. I'll be back very soon with another episode of The Juicebox Podcast.

Hello friends, and welcome to episode 855 of the Juicebox Podcast. On today's episode of Juicebox Podcast I'm joined once again by Erica Forsythe. Erica is a licensed Marriage and Family Therapist out of California. She can also see patients right now, virtually, who live in Utah, Oregon and Florida. She's adding more states all the time, check her out at Erica forsyth.com Or by calling six to 63442263. Just a little heads up, you'll see by the title Eric and I are going to talk about suicidal ideation today, and everything that goes around that, how to spot it what to do, how you might be able to help someone. While you're listening, please remember that nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise, please Always consult a physician before making any changes to your health care plan, or becoming bold with insulin. If you're a type one who is a US resident or a person who is the caregiver of someone with type one, filling out the survey AT T one D exchange.org. Forward slash juicebox will go a long way towards helping type one diabetes research. complete that survey AT T one D exchange.org. Forward slash juicebox. If you are currently having suicidal thoughts or just want to speak with someone just pick up your phone and dial 988 That's the suicide and crisis lifeline 988. You can also look online Samaritans hope.org Or just go to Google and type in suicide help. All kinds of local returns will come up for you. This episode of The Juicebox Podcast doesn't have any ads. But if you're interested in supporting the podcast through one of the advertisers, there are links in the show notes of this episode. And at juicebox podcast.com to all of the sponsors. Okay. Hello. Hi, Erica. How are you? Hi,

great. Thank you.

I appreciate you. Oh, I'm already I just hit record. And I'm already doubting that I should do this. But I know I'm no I know I shouldn't I know it's going to be valuable. But I'm gonna get upset at some point while I'm doing this. So let me let me lay out how we got here. A lot of people write to me, that's the thing you hear a lot of people say most of them are probably lying because they're trying to make their social influence seem more powerful. But I get a ton of emails, private messages, so many so that I mean, I read I read every one of them. But sometimes they'll sit in my inbox for a month before I can get to them. And I got a note from a girl a while back now. And it was pretty long and descriptive. And and they wanted to come on the show. They didn't mention any mental health issues. But I would say that the letter had some signs of it in there. Sometimes you can kind of tell by the length of the letter or details get over shared things like that, like I can I kind of have like maybe a half a sixth sense for it. And so I got right back to her. And I see you know, would love to have you on the show, let's set it up. And then I never ever heard back from Oregon. And I mean, like a year went by. And then she responded to the email, as if I had just sent it like the week before. And we were talking and here was the conversation again. And they were very excited to come on the show. And this time I got her booked onto the show. And it takes about six months after your book to get on the show. So about two months before, about two months before she was supposed to record with me. I got this very strange email from somebody I don't know. And it became obvious that the person was trying to tell me that their daughter had passed away without using the words. And then as I read a little farther, opened up and said yes, she had passed, but then I realized they weren't going to say how. So I was like, okay, and at the end of the note, it said that at at their daughter's funeral. They wanted to take donations for the podcast. And this was at his daughter's behest. And I was just like, I mean, if you could try to imagine my wife and I are sitting in our car outside of a restaurant, just waiting for our takeout. You're not I mean, and I'm like, Hey, look at this and I'm reading it we're both trying to make sense of it. it and the gentleman says, leaves his phone number and says you can call me. And I thought I said to my wife, I'm like, this is I don't know what to do about this. But I can't just email back. I don't know what the right thing to say like this has to happen conversationally. And so I just called him from the car. And he never said how, just that his daughter had passed away that morning. And, and then I started putting it together. And I realized, I think this girl took her own life. And I think I'm in her suicide note. Like, like, you don't I mean, because you don't like and I'm obviously making a couple of leaps. But you don't walk into a bedroom and say to your parents, like, Hey, I'm gonna go kill myself now. But at my funeral, could you please handle donation like, so I started thinking like, Oh, my God, I'm in somebody's like, like, last last will and testament, basically, you know, and it freaked me out a lot. And I held myself together. And I talked to him, and he was barely holding himself together. And I told him, I get back to him the next day. And so I'm sorry to say that in that moment, I didn't realize that his daughter was the person who I described as the person I was emailing with the beginning. And I put a lot of effort into it. I asked people online, Jenny and I talked privately, and I ended up giving him three places. I said, Look, I can't take donations from from this. I was like, but here's, I gave him touched by type one. I said, this is an organization that helps children, I gave him diabetes sisters, is an organization that helps women, and we are diabetes, for eating disorders, and things like that. And I was like, these are three places I think, would be very valuable. And, you know, I can't like I would never, I said, I'm not a I'm not a charity. I'm like, I don't even know what I would do with money if it came, like, you know, I'm not going to take but but he but he kept saying, but my daughter wants you to have it. And I was like, I can't take it. Like I just can't, you know, and so we set this up, everybody was okay with it. Like two days later, my cell phone, I'm sitting right here and my cell phone rings and I don't recognize the number and I pick it up. And there is a crying woman on the phone. Before she says hello, she's, she's crying. But she's also doing the dishes. So I can hear someone crying and doing dishes at the same time. And I just thought, Oh God, this is this girl's mom. Like it is she's got my number because I called her husband. And we just stayed on the phone for maybe 20 minutes. She described what the podcast meant to her daughter how much it had helped her through her life. And told me that never never used the word suicide never said took her own life. She didn't use those words. We all it was spoken around the entire time. And and she just thanked me and then asked me if I had any insight about her daughter. And I told her that I would be happy to share the emails that she sent me and I sent them back to her. And I've never I've never heard from them again. I did tell the woman like it was like if you ever want to come on the podcast and speak about your daughter, you know, eulogize her memorialized or anything at all? Like you could I took from the conversations that she had a lot of different problems. Some were physical and some were mental. And that she had really succeeded through her life she'd I think become a nurse and like, done a number of things going to school the way she meant to, I hope I'm not miss speaking about what she accomplished. But she had gone to school she was working towards she had a life you know, but the mom said something. And I'm not going to get it right word for word, but I'm never gonna forget the intent of what she said is, this was always how it was going to end she said, I've been waiting for this for a long time. And I thought and again, not her exact words, but I think I think it was I think what she said word for word as close as I can get to it is we always knew this was going to happen. So I'm assuming there were fits and starts and attempts and things along the way. And so I of course not to make this about me because it certainly is and I want to shine a light on this and help people understand how to identify suicidal thoughts, how you can help people with them, etc. But just telling you the story because that's why the episode exists. I I was I don't know anybody who's suicidal, I don't think and then it made me think or do I and I don't know, because this girl did not seem suicidal in these emails. She just seemed a little I don't know, all over the place a little bit but not but in a way that would have put up a red flag for me, you know? Certainly. Anyway, I, I just wanted to help people recognize it and others and know where to go next. So if you can help me with that, that'd be great.

Yes. Well, yeah, it's obviously a tragic story. And it's such a painful and sensitive topic. And I know that our community responded as well, there was an outpouring of love and support for this, this woman. So I think one of the main things is often you, as you were sharing, just through the email, we might not notice any significant red flags you hear a lot of family members talk about when their child dies by suicide, which I just want to note, it's, we really don't want to say committed suicide anymore is if it's like they committed a crime, and it's died by suicide. And so they reflect back and say, gosh, we really didn't even notice any signs, maybe they were sad, at some certain moments, there was you know, irregularity in their emotional regulation or their their functioning. And that might feel scary, but some things that we that you can do that one of the myths out there is that we don't want to ask if someone's suicidal, or if they have any thoughts about suicide that maybe in so doing that might plant a seed, but that's actually a really false myth. And so, by simply asking, Hey, I noticed you've been down or sad for a while, or you don't just seem yourself, have you been thinking about wanting to harm yourself? Have you been thinking about killing yourself? That that is disclosing and showing them that you care, you see them, it is not planting a seed? And, and if they say, No, that's also great, because then they know maybe if they do ever start to feel that way, they know that you're a safe person to come to. So simply just by asking, is not going to plant a seed, and it's showing that you care, you notice, and you're in your safe, right?

Yeah, I I've wondered about that. Because even with a lot of parenting or, or issues or friend, you know, even like, personal relationships, it is difficult to say the thing out loud, is what's happening. Are you cheating on me? Are you like, you know what I mean? Like, like, that kind of stuff. And there are people who will live their entire lives, wondering about something, never saying it out loud. And maybe a it's not true. And you've made yourself worried about it for no reason, or B, it is true, and you could have maybe made your situation better. But the fact of the matter isn't going to change, whether you say it out loud or not. So you might as well, right?

Yes, and it, it can be so scary to say and obviously, as a clinician, I am trained, and I've practiced and it's I'm more comfortable doing it. And so as I coach parents to do this, I know there is that moment of it's fearful, it can be scary. But it is not. It is not what you think it's going to do. It's not going to plant the seed. And I know a lot of people might also not want to ask the question, because then they feel like well, am I responsible? What if they do say yes? And now am I responsible to make them feel better or to care for them? And you are, you are not you are then well, you're responsible at that point to get them, you know, to a trusted adult to call, you know, depending on the severity of the situation, 911988, which is the national suicide line. But you're not you yourself are not responsible to save them and make them feel better, right? You're that kind of first line of defense, so to speak.

I would say that, um, I understand the fear. If you've never been in that situation, it's not something you'll get ready for. I've I've been in at one time. And I certainly won't share anybody's personal details. But as I was heading to the place where this person was, I called a friend of mine who's a police officer. And I said, I'm about to walk into this situation, and I don't know what to do. And, and he said, Okay, he goes well, just, he's like, you're gonna have to assess what's happening. He's like, is it something that's just being said out loud? Is it they're distraught about something because they, you know, something happened? Is this a real thing? Is it ongoing? And then you need He's like, he's like, then there's this important part. It's interesting. I never thought about it because you want to get this person to go seek help on their own. And I said, why? And he said, well, most of the time this works out And I said, okay, and he goes, but if you have to be taken in by force, it changes a lot about how the rest of your life goes. And I said, Really, and he said, he said from owning a firearm to like a number of different things, he said, He's like, he's like if you can get this person to go on their own. And when I got there, all I knew for sure is that I didn't understand how this person felt. And they did not seem to be the best arbiter of the next thing that happened to them. And so I made this description, I said, Look, I was told, if you go get help, you're probably going to be okay. And later, you're going to really be happy that you did this on your own. And they did that they were assessed by a professional, came home, we're okay made up an appointment with a therapist to therapist now we're doing very much better. But had that had that moment boiled over and somebody would have called a cop that would have changed their life forever. And I and even that's got to be in people's minds, right? Because like, am I going to do something? Is this a momentary thing? I'm going to this person up, you know, for the rest of their life. I can see why people would be concerned about what to do next afterwards.

Yes, yes. And I? For sure, yeah. The sense of responsibility, am I going to change the course of their whole entire life if I feel like I need to make this call because they aren't responding? I think it's really important for for you, as the person who's you know, attending to someone who is severely depressed or suicidal, is to give them that sense of control. Like, let them decide if they're, if you feel like they truly can. Hey, what do you need from me right now? Do you need me to stay here? And maybe elicit the help of other family and friends to take shifts? Do you need me to call you every day? What would be good for you at this moment? check ins, you all that type of stuff?

Well, okay, so the thing that I was involved in was, was sprung on me, I didn't know it was happening, you know, an hour before I was there. I was, I was doing the dishes if I'm being honest. And so but if, if I'm, if I'm in a home with someone who I think feels this way, now I bet it because we've we've gone over, you can ask somebody, you know, how do you feel? So what are we what are we looking for exactly like the NIH says that warning signs of suicide are if someone is talking about wanting to die, talking about great guilt or shame, talking about being a burden to others, that those things can be indicators, you agree with that? Absolutely. If they talk about feeling empty, hopeless, trapped, or having no reason to live, if they talk about feel if they have feelings of extreme sadness, more anxiety, agitation, or a full range, or full rage, excuse me, and then an unbearable emotional or physical pain, if they feel that way. Now, they also say to look for change in behaviors, making a plan or researching ways to die, withdrawing from friends saying goodbye giving away important items, or making a will, taking dangerous risks such as driving extremely fast, displaying extreme mood swings, eating or sleeping more or less using drugs or alcohol more often than you would be expecting from them. You agree with all that? Yes. Is there anything to add to it?

Well, I think one thing that might get confusing for people, you know, the extreme sadness, or the even the suicidal ideation, I think can be confusing, and a lot of you know, websites and any if you Google, you know suicidal ideation. There's not a TED talks on this as well. Because a lot of people who are depressed, and I hear this in my office as well. It's kind of like a release valve for them to say, I don't want to kill myself. But sometimes it just feels easier to envision myself not being alive. Or just things might be easier if I didn't have to feel this pain, this weight. And so they're, they're thinking about it, but not they don't have means or a plan. Right? That's those are the questions you'd fall up with. If someone says yes, I have been thinking about not wanting to live, then you would say well, do you have means meaning? Have you do you have tools that were What are you? How are you going to do this and then then a plan. Now most of the time, people will say no, I don't have means or a plan. And they ideate and it's it's really not there's no it's not an active thought. It's more of a passive release.

So, release is the word I was going to use. So if you are trapped in a situation, say I take a perfectly healthy, jovial person, and I locked them in a box, and that at some point, they're going to think I have to kill myself to get out of this because there's no way for me to get out of this. So that box could be an overbearing parent. It could be an abusive spouse. It could be a situation that they can't find another way out of and so they're not people Who in any normal situation is that what you're saying would consider ending their life it's just the only thing they can think of conceive.

The only thing they can think of or and, and the experience that that their lived experience for the day, the season, it feels so overwhelming that they feel like the only way to have any kind of relief from the physical and emotional pain is to envision them not being alive. And so it's more of a Yeah, it's a release is really the best word from that current lived experience. But they aren't saying well put in I'm gonna go do this and this and this to actually make that happen.

Yeah, but just just imagining it puts their puts their brain in a place where they don't exist in the world anymore. And therefore all this anxiety and pressure and stress they feel doesn't exist either. Yes, a way to make it go away. Yes, yes, yes. Is that the if I'm wrong about this, you'll stop me. But I only know enough about this from talking to other people who have gone through these things. But is that sort of the intellectual exercise? That would be the physical equivalent of cutting? Like to like to interesting to see what I mean by that? Maybe I'm wrong.

Yes. I mean, I wouldn't make that like in total equal comparison. But yeah, I mean, I think if that helps kind of understand the concept,

right? You're gonna say something so bombastic that it just everything, all the feelings go away, and you can just feel yourself being hurt at that moment. Right. Right. Right. Right. Which doesn't work, by the way, like it just it works. That's why cutters describe how often they have to do it, because the release and the relief is only momentary for them.

And then usually, what ensues is shame after that, whereas I'm not sure you know, that, that, that release of thinking about not being alive, if shame follows that. So there might be different patterns after that kind of experience. But yeah, I think that's, that's an interesting comparison.

And again, I interviewed a few people, like, involve themselves in self harm somehow, and they all seem to when they're on the other side of it, they seem to talk about it that way, a little bit. So

I think, yes, I mean, the the list that you just described, is comprehensive. And I think what keeps a lot of that hidden, is shame. I think one of the things, I just heard this great example of thinking about yourself as a student in junior, and you know, elementary school, high school, even college, and the teacher has explained something over and over and over again, you still aren't understanding it. And you know, you want to raise your hand, you want to ask the question. But you're kind of embarrassed to raise your hand, maybe you feel like you're the only one who doesn't understand the concepts, you don't raise your hand. And this the same thing applies for someone who is who is suicidal? Is there so much shame? Am I the only one who feels this way? And so they aren't raising their hand for help. And so by you taking kind of the heavy lift and taking that initiative, of saying, Hey, I noticed you just don't, it can be very simple. You just don't seem yourself. Have you been thinking about hurting yourself, harming yourself? killing yourself, you are doing that you are raising the hand for them, because they might be trapped in a lot of shame and feelings of isolation.

Okay. And it's important to be very clear, when you um, I see you using the same words over and over again, not, don't dance around it don't know, euphemisms like, Are you thinking of harming yourself killing yourself? Like be clear? Yes, yes. Is it reasonable to expect that if they do feel that way that they will tell you?

I mean, typically, in my experience people do and then they will clarify it? So if they do say, Well, yeah, actually, I kind of have then they'll then you can ask those further questions. Like we just said around double, do you have to have you thought about how you would do it, you'd have to say means and plan that's kind of clinical language, but have you thought about how you would kill yourself and you're using that specific language? Because they know that you are taking them seriously. And they in that process, they feel validated, heard, taken care of all of those things. And so then they will help kind of differentiate that for you by saying, Well, yeah, I have and I have these things, or no, it's just kind of this idea that I'm feeling so overwhelmed. I kind of don't want to be alive right now.

And am I right to say that a person with suicidal ideation or thoughts, they don't have to be depressed, and like depressed people don't, that being depressed doesn't necessarily make you suicidal. And being suicidal doesn't necessarily make you depressed.

Right, because you can, I mean, obviously, they go hand in hand often, but there's, there's so many different levels of depression, and you might be a fully healthy be functioning adult, and have a really hard day, maybe multiple days in a row and feel like, Ah, I just don't want to be here right now. Yeah, I wish I could not be living at this moment and have that fleeting thought,

when we were first married, my wife worked at a company who brought a very popular anti depression medication target. And so my wife would come home and say, Hey, we're seeing in the data, that sometimes there are suicidal people who are so deeply depressed, that they can't even work up the energy to hurt themselves. And then they took the medication and the medication lifted enough of the of the of the weight, that they could actually harm themselves. They were seeing people, like, does that make sense that they weren't they were so chained down by their depression, they, they they wanted to end their life and they couldn't, and then the medication would take away enough of it that they could go try to harm themselves. And that was obviously I think, unexpected in the beginning when these drugs were being like that.

Yes, that is, I have I have heard of that. And I also have heard of when you start medication, they why they say wait for three or four weeks for any kind of change to take effect. Because oftentimes people who are experiencing depression and start taking medication, they have so much hope in the medication. And then they don't feel any change quickly or quickly enough that are within their expectations. That then is when maybe the suicidal ideation becomes more severe. And there are more attempts. So that's why it's, we really want to emphasize it. Finding the right dose and medication takes time. And to be patient with that

the idea of like, well, this is going to do it for me, and then it doesn't, and then

that all hope is lost that yeah, there was the straw

that broke the camel's back, like, well, if this isn't gonna work, I'm out of here. Yes, that's so crazy. What are the numbers? Do you know them? Like how many people do this? A year? I

don't know. I know the I know that seven purse. This was a couple of years ago. I don't know actually the exact year but 7% of the population have identified as being depressed. I don't know. The numbers of suicidal attempts. I'm looking here or death by suicide. But I think that the depression is it's so common. But we you know, everyone has their their fear and shame to talk about it.

A fsp.org is American Foundation for Suicide Prevention. on their front page, they said suicide is the 12th leading leading cause of death in the US in 2020 45,979. Americans were successful in their attempt 1.2 million tried. That's a wow, astonishing thing. The rate of service 2020 2020 additional facts about suicide in the US. The age adjusted suicide rate in 2020 was 13.4 per 100,000 the rate of suicide is highest and middle aged white men and 2020 men died by suicide 3.88 times more than women did. On average, their 130 a day. White males accounted for 69.68% of deaths in 2020. And it looks like in 2020 over 50% where a handgun was involved that firearm was that's really something and for my again from my perspective, I've never known anyone personally who's who's done this or tried it. I've known a person who's obviously spoken about it in a in a tense situation. And I have this experience with the listener and her family. I can tell you that I don't know what it's like to be her parents. But but I am pretty far outside of this girl's sphere. And I was really really impacted by it. It stuck with me for quite some time it made and I can see where the feelings come from because I the first thing I thought was and this is ridiculous right but had I got her on the podcast sooner like maybe we would have talked about something that I'm sure everyone feels like that when the bargaining yeah like maybe I could have helped me well that's ridiculous. How was I gonna do for you didn't mean like I don't know her I don't know her life. And I'm not I'm not trained in any way you don't I mean like but I still had that's that's silly. I can't imagine that our parents must feel that. You know every second like what did I not do? Or do And so what happens then, if you're, if you find yourself in this situation someone is able to help you you do get to help is that I hear people talk about being scared of the help too, though. And, and a little bit of the cost. I hear people worried about the cost the help, they say, there's no good facilities around them, then you hear people who have been in the system, and it's difficult to find good facilities, is there a way to help yourself in that to go in the right direction?

Yeah, I mean, those are all sinking significant and valid concerns, the costs, you know, if do you want to be an inpatient care, outpatient care, one of depending on, you know, your insurance and your ability to pay for treatment, one of the best things I know that helped people who are severely depressed and in this suicidal space, is giving giving them a purpose to get up every day, because perhaps at that point, they've lost the ability to, to function to get to go to work to get up and take a shower. And so there are, you know, treatment facilities that aren't necessarily fully inpatient, or fully outpatient, but you go just for the day, and part of the the intervention. And the kind of reward of that is you have to, you have to get up, you have to show up at 9am. And you're there, you're accountable. You're learning, you're also being exposed to community, and you come back. So that's a kind of a good middle space, if if going into a full inpatient treatment facility, doesn't feel appropriate for all of the reasons emotional financial. Because it's that finding that purpose. And if it's just to get up and get out of bed and report to a support group, every day, for a certain amount of weeks. Yeah, you, you, you receive so much out of that, right. I think one of the fears of a family member who has was trying to support someone who is severely depressed, is that they might not want it right, they there's resist, they're resisting, they're saying that they're not going to kill themselves, but they also don't want to go to any treatment facility, or they don't want to go to therapy, they don't want to take medication. And if you are feeling trapped in that place, I know it can be so overwhelming and isolating. But you get to the point where you know what I need to help my family member, and they're going to be mad at me, but they're going to be alive. And so getting to that place of I need to find the right support, whatever it is, if it means having a family intervention, friends coming over, and that and that fund member is going to be mad at you, because you've exposed them to get to a place of being okay with them being mad at you for that because they're still going to be alive. Yeah, it's

the it's funny, it's the one instance when I can think it's okay to ignore their wishes, right? Because because the end result is is so finite, you know, if you anything else, I could see if they were like, I drink too much we're gonna or maybe we'll work it out. If you know that you can say alright, mate, because there's another day, there's another possibility of being hopeful and finding another answer. But when when the idea is this, there's there's nowhere to go from there. That's Do you think? I don't know what the question is, I guess, in your personal like, experience to people who identify these things and seek treatment? Did they end up with a different reality later? Do they often get through it?

Well, I would say, you know, the people who I see are either they aren't at that. I don't see people who are at the severe clinical stage of depression who need this, you know, more intense, either inpatient or daily treatment. So the people that I interact with more might be, you know, grieving from a newly diagnosed diagnosis, right of diabetes, and they're feeling so overwhelmed by all of the things. And that's when I hear pretty frequently those feelings of gosh, I just, it's so hard to juggle family and work and now having to figure out this diabetes for myself or my child. And there are days where I just feel like I don't want to be here. And life would just be easier if I didn't have to face all this. And so I associate that, you know, technically it is ideation, but that's connected with grief, and kind of the shock of all of it. And so working through all of the emotional, the grieving from the diagnosis, is really the ideation is relieved as we process the diagnosis and the grief If that makes sense,

no, it doesn't. It's there is hope. Yes. But I just think that most people listening to this are going to if they if they intersect this, it's going to be more on that level. Like, I don't think that if you're if you have a loved one who's institutionalized and you know, like and is on, I don't think this is they you probably would have stopped listening to this a while ago. So I mean, it's it this is for people who find themselves with a new situation that people respond to sometimes in the way you described, are offhanded. Like, like, what about offhanded jokes? Like when you? I mean, I have my opinion, I want to hear what you think like if you if somebody says like, Oh, my teacher gave me a beat, I'm gonna kill myself. And you're being that's, that's not a that's not the same thing. Right. That's a colloquialism.

Yes, I Yes, I hear that, you know, and I, I'm sensitive to it in the in the fact that yes, it's a colloquialism. It's like, Ah, I'm so frustrated with myself. And so if I'll hear a client or a child, say that, say, hey, let's, let's just use a different word, you know, not not overly do it in terms of having a conversation or do it, you really want to kill yourself? I mean, obviously, I would do that if I saw some other signs and symptoms. Yeah, but let's just use another word like, Oh, I'm so frustrated with myself.

Yeah. And it's, but it's a very, listen, it's an incredibly common thing. Like people say that, I mean, people who are not suicidal and not depressed, just they say it, like, it's like, it's a silly thing. And so but um, my point is, if your kids walked in through the room, and they're like, I gotta be on this, I'm gonna kill myself. Like, they do have to turn to them and say, Are you really having? Like, do you need me like, where's the line? And and I guess that's for everyone to decide. You know, like, where is like, when is somebody being flippant? And somebody's really having thoughts like that? And is is, is the flippancy happening over and over again? Is that is that an indicator? Like? Is that person trying to say something to you? Or are they really just a person with what you might consider a wide open sense of humor? And a dark sense of humor, but they don't have any thoughts like that?

I would look at if that was my child's saying that over and over again, I would look at, you know, the context, and how are they functioning? How were their friendships? How are they doing in school? Are they? Are they saying, Are they stopping doing things that used to find pleasure in or enjoyment and? Or are they still are they still, quote, normal functioning, I would just remind them, let's choose a different word. But I think it's also something just to be, you know, gut checking yourself and saying, Gosh, they are saying this a lot. And I also noticed that he's sleeping more or she's deciding not to play tennis anymore, or you

know, to find that find the, is this just the thing, and there's no thread to something else? Where am I? Like, do I can I step back, see the big picture. And notice, wow, not only am I hearing this, but I do see some of these other things that we listed earlier.

And there's there's nothing wrong and asking, there's as we already said, In the beginning, like you by asking your child or family member, are you thinking about really killing yourself? Are you thinking about harming yourself? And they say no. Okay, now they know you're an open field member to talk about it. If they do ever feel like that.

Yeah. And you might end up in another situation, helping them I'll tell you, the person that I had my interaction with. Thanks me, like every couple of months, just they'll just get like a random note to say, I appreciate what you did that day. And, you know, I'm doing well and that kind of stuff. So and it's just, and it was in a situation where I noticed that a lot of other people were like, well, let's just be done with this person. Like, it's enough already. And P and people got frustrated. And I just I was the opposite. I thought, well, we're not going to quit on this. Right, this would be a silly time to like, give up here. So, I don't know, there's just a lot of intricacies, especially within families. And, you know, like, there's, there's politics and families you don't even like probably think of it that way. You know, but

well, and I think yeah, that what you just said, you know, people kind of giving up on someone or maybe like, Oh, this is just you know, Bobby being Bobby, you know, he's just got to get over it. Well, I just heard I think Bill Bill Burnett, just saying the the lat the depression is the lack of ability to get over it. And so they have someone who is clinically depressed, has probably tried to get over it and isn't able to get over it. Yeah. And so it's it's a real true thing. And so, by by going there and you know, using you talking to them in a normal voice connecting, seeing them for who they are as human beings and not seeing them as this You know, sick, scary person, I think is also really important.

I've had a number of meaningful, life altering relationships through this podcast, by taking on people to come on the show to talk about things that most people would not have talked about. And I've seen their lives change. I've seen, I understand better I get a note online from one from a from a person who's been on this podcast, they send me about one a year. And it just says, Why don't you know I'm doing well, this is my one, see, if I respond, they will not respond back to me. But this person just reaches out to me about once a year to let me know they're doing okay. And and I can see why people wouldn't, why you'd be afraid to get involved. Because I also have an experience where someone, there was a clear cry for help in the Facebook group. And everyone tried to help this person. So there's this kind of like, they run into the group, there's a cry for help post, then they don't respond. And you trying to decide like, is this? Are they? Is it just attention seeking, like, what is this exactly right. And so you don't want to make the decision. You don't want to just brush it off as attention seeking, because what if they really need the help, but a lot of people tried to help, they were actually able to contact people in this person's extended family, like, you know what I'm talking about, like, Yes, I'm dealing with that way. But there was a moment where I couldn't let these attention seeking posts happen anymore. So I stopped, I blocked the person from being able to post, but I didn't just block them and walk away. I sent them a private email. And I said, I don't know you, I don't know your situation. But I do understand diabetes, and I can help you if you want. We can sit and talk privately. I'll call you on the phone, whatever you need, ignored me, ignored me ignored me. And then an email comes back. Everyone always says they're going to help me and no one does. And blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, okay, so I responded back one more time. I said, Well, I am telling you, I will, I don't know that for sure if I can help but I'm happy to talk to you. And then it was vitriol back at me again. And I went okay, well, now we're done. Okay, so like, I've tried, I've tried, I don't know, you, you're you seem like you just want this dance to keep going. I can't fix that for you. That's a hard thing. So I stopped answering. And then that person went around on social media and tried to like hit me every place they thought they publicly could, then I put a stop to all of that. And so do I wish I didn't try to help that person? A little bit. I do wish I didn't do that. Right. But I think back on the others, where I took that chance, and it went really well. And I guess I thought, well, this is the this the price of doing business, right? If I'm gonna forget to help somebody, it's not always gonna work out. Right. So,

and they, you know, at that point, she wasn't ready to receive it. Ya

know, there's compatibility. They all the reason, oh, my God, they might send it out six months from now and be like, Hey, I'm so sorry. I should have said, Yeah, let's chat. I wasn't in that right place. Or maybe it's a internet troll. Like, I have no way to know, you know, so. But in your real life, there's, you will not be let down. If you try to help somebody. That's from my perspective, it will, it will help them and it'll help you too.

So, yes,

we're missing here. I'm sorry to cut you off?

No, I was gonna say I think it will. And that piece, I think I know, I already mentioned it, but I think it's so it's such a huge factor in why people might hesitate in asking the question, because of that fear of I don't know, what am I? What do I do? I'm just a person, I'm not a trained therapist or doctor, what do I do this sense of feeling of either inadequate, or, like, what do I have to be responsible? And just, I just encourage you, if you have those thoughts, don't let those you know, stop you from just reaching out because just that very, the act of asking if someone's Okay, is going to will be a lifeline for them. Yeah.

You know, we didn't talk too much about though, like, what if we're on the other side of that? What if we're not the person trying to help? Like, what if we're the person in in trouble? Are they able to make that leap? Normally, or do they need someone to come get them?

I think, you know, if someone's already in therapy, I'm thinking of just my personal examples. That's part of my questioning if I am noticing some depressive symptoms. So it's, it's kind of an automatic conversation. I think if it's a family member, and you're sitting there and you're the one who is suffering and dealing with some of these thoughts and feelings. I think it's really hard to reach out because depression is so connected to feelings of shame, which then leads to feelings of isolation and no one else feels this way, no one's going to understand no one's going to get me. And no one knows what this feels like those types of thoughts are really common. So when you're when you're swimming in that pool of shame, it's really hard to say, hey, and somebody, I'm Richard Hambrick, and somebody helped me here, I'm really drowning. Because the shame really prevents of doing that. No, this is not all, you know, all the time. But I think often, people do need someone else to ask, how are you doing?

Yeah, I was really interested by the breakdown of the male to female because I, I generally think of men, as people who are more willing to ignore those cues and just push forward. But obviously, the numbers kind of say opposite, like maybe that maybe pushing through is, is stuffing down, not not not lurching forward all the time. I mean, obviously, for some people, it's different. But that threw me off the breakdown of the numbers a little bit. I don't know why

exactly stuff stuffing down. And then I think what we were talking about, on the other episode about the shame that perhaps there's stereotypically in a male mindset, I gotta be much, Oh, I gotta keep it all together, I get all of my, I feel good about myself about what I do my work, my family, these are all stereotypes, obviously. And so when a male might be struggling with depression, the shame is just right there. I should I should not be feeling this way I should be providing for myself or my family. How can I be stuck here in bed all day? I'm a bad person. Yeah,

I can tell you is that having kids, you just you're always looking at them, like assessing things. They're assessing their health and their happiness and the things they are saying and the things they aren't saying, and what are they doing? And who are they around. And it's just, I don't know, like, I understand how it could be overwhelming to a person from the outside. But if you're seeing these things, obviously, if you don't know what to do find somebody that doesn't know what to do. I'll put I'll book in this episode with like phone numbers and websites and stuff like that. But anyway, the last thing I'll tell you about the person from my story at the beginning, is that one of the last things her mom said on the phone, when I said, you know, you can you can come on the podcast, if you ever want to, like I don't know, like, it's a weird thing to say to somebody, but she felt like she wanted to talk about her daughter. And she said, I said, just reach out to me when the time feels appropriate. And she said, You're gonna have to reach out to me, because I don't think I'm gonna remember this day. She said, It made me sad. And and I don't have the nerve to reach out to her. I can and I can't decide if I'm letting her down by not doing that or not. Like, does she really want me to? I don't want to be totally mean. Like, I don't want her to do this if she doesn't want to. And I? And I don't know, I'm lost as to what to do about that at the moment.

But I think, you know, she can always say no, and you could always say, right. I was hesitating to reach out. Right.

Yeah, I think I might, because I feel like I promised her that I was going to do it.

But it is it is hard and painful. And I think if you if you are listening to this and feeling those feelings, you know, reach out 988 is the is the easiest thing to remember. Or you can plug it into your phone and save it. Because those are there 24/7 365 Someone a mental health professional is there to talk you can also text.

Yeah, I think two of you. If something like this has happened, and you're left behind, I think you probably should seek out, you know, help as well. Right? Because I don't see. I mean, we I think anybody who has kids is spoken about this back and forth. Right? Like, if something happened to my kids, it wouldn't have to be you know, a suicide event. Just anything like I don't like I'm I'm really impressed by people who go on after they lose their children. Yeah, you know. So, anyway, just anyway, find help. You know, that's pretty much what I want to do. I appreciate you doing this very much. Am I leaving anything out?

No, I think we've covered covered it. Thank you.

No, thank you. Once again, if you're having any suicidal thoughts or considerations around hurting yourself, please dial 988 Or go to Samaritans hope that org I want to thank Erica again and remind you that if you live in California, Utah, Oregon or Florida, Erica can help you at Erica forsyth.com Or you can give her a call at 626-344-2266 Thank you So much for listening. I'll be back very soon with another episode of The Juicebox Podcast if you'd like to learn more about diabetes sisters, they offer a range of education and supportive services to help women of all ages with all types of diabetes to live fuller, healthier lives. diabetes sisters.org. Of course, if you're a listener, you know touched by type one they are a podcast sponsor and a longtime favorite of mine, touched by type one.org. And we are diabetes. At we are diabetes.org We help people living with type one diabetes and disordered eating. We are diabetes.org

Hello friends, welcome to episode 884 of the Juicebox Podcast Erica Forsythe is back today and she's gonna say talking with me, but this conversation took a turn somewhere and I got very passionate, so I'm not sure how much Erica spoke. Anyway, we're talking about how people speak to each other online and some other online eccentricities. Like complaining about seeing other people wearing CGM or using GLP ones and stuff like that. Anyway, it's a spirited conversation. I invite you to listen. While you're listening. Please remember that nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise, always consult a physician before making any changes to your health care plan. We're becoming bold with insulin. If you have type one, or the caregiver of type one and a US resident, well, then I need you to go to T one D exchange.org. Forward slash juicebox and complete the survey. That's it t one D exchange.org. Forward slash juicebox. complete the survey. It helps people living with type one, it'll help you it'll help me. This show is sponsored today by the glucagon that my daughter carries. G voc hypo Penn Find out more at G voc glucagon.com. Forward slash juicebox. today's podcast is also brought to you by touched by type one now this is a fantastic organization helping people with type one diabetes, it's an org. And they just want you to check out what they're doing. Hit him up on Facebook, Instagram, and of course, at touched by type one.org. I'll be speaking at one of their huge events later this year. Go check it out touched by type one.org. The podcast is also sponsored today by Omni pod. Now Omni pod makes the Omni pod dash and the Omni pod five. So there is a tubeless insulin pump for whatever you desire. The dash puts you in charge, it's completely manual, you make the decisions. But that only pod five, its automated runs off an algorithm with the Dexcom G six. It's going to make a lot of the decisions for you. Check them out Get started today at Omni pod.com forward slash juicebox. There are links to all of the sponsors in the shownotes have the audio player you're listening in right now. And at juicebox podcast.com. But you can always just type them into a browser. Hey, ARCA. How are you?

I'm doing well. Thanks. Good to see you. Good to be here.

I am. I think we'll jump right in because you're on the schedule for today. But we just decided last night what to talk about. I think we're going to kind of commingle two ideas together. I think I don't know where to start. Which Which of the two things do you think we start with?

Let's start with on you know how to communicate. online. Online. Okay. Yes. All right. effectively and appropriately and compassionately communicate?

Yes. I have no training about how to talk to people. I, all I have is that back when blogs weren't a thing, I had a blog. So I was learning to communicate with people I couldn't see. And you can say it's Oh, it's not. It's not that deep. But it kind of is like you have to learn how to talk to people in a way that they can receive it. Right? Like so no matter what you're saying. You're not You're not sugarcoating it, and you're not holding back. But you're saying it in a way that doesn't just light them on fire before you present them with the topic, right. And I'm sure as we're talking, we're going to come up with a lot of examples of that. But I learned how to do that the blog was pretty darn popular. So I'm people must have accepted my writing pretty well. When I went to the podcast, it's the same thing. Like you're I'm talking to a wall most of the time, or I'm talking to a person I don't even see. And you're developing a conversation that people can hear from the outside and not brusque, up against not be like, oh, you know, right. You know, I'm upset by this part of what you said or that part of what you said that's on purpose for me. Like real Scott in real life. Isn't this nice? I don't mean to other people, mainly to my family. I mean, but like, but I don't because I don't think about when I'm interacting in my purse. My life, I don't think about, oh, I want to make sure this is accessible to everybody. I'm more about, like, let me get out my thoughts and my feelings and how this impacts me and that kind of stuff. Anyway, it wasn't really until I launched the Facebook group that I really started seeing it. Some people don't know how to talk. They just don't know how to get their point across without making somebody angry. And there's a difference between doing it on purpose. Like some people run into a thread, and they're like, hey, and then they run out because they want to see the they want to see the fight, right. But that's not often what happens. Often what happens is people just see the world from a very like, me centric perspective. And I don't know if they put much thought into, how is this going to resonate with the person who's hearing it? And then it starts weird fights, that it's interesting where they go. So I want to start with how to talk to people. And there's probably nobody better to ask than you like, how how, and I'm sure this what we're going to talk about is going to be beyond the internet and work in people's real lives as well.

Yeah, so I think, you know, in grad school, we learn a lot about communication in marriage and family therapy. And oftentimes when people land in my office is around communication. And one of the things that we learn is this image of there's a sender, as when you're communicating with someone, there's the sender, and then there's the receiver of information. And so envisioning yourself, if you are the sender, you are communicating like as if in a letter and you you've written your message, you're sending it in a letter, and you're not always sure how the receiver is going to receive that message. Is, is the receiver of your letter, so to speak. Has anybody had a horrible day? Have they had an incredible morning? Did they have sleep? Have they eaten, right? So you're delivering a message as a sender? Not knowing how it's going to land? And that is often what causes conflict? Yeah. In verbal and you know, in person verbal communication.

And I think there's a way I think what some people hear, like, the more I don't know, I don't know what to say, there are gonna be some people that hear that and go, Oh, well, you're just, you're just saying what you don't mean. So it doesn't upset anybody. I'm not talking about that. I'm saying you can get your point across without everybody hating each other, and yelling and screaming and everything just coming up, like, like, octaves up. And I just think that that's I don't know why it's not a consideration. Like, why is it so important for me to say what I think that I don't care how you feel? That's a fascinating aspect of this to me. So I guess on some level, you have to be concerned with your audience, and how they're going to feel.

Yes, and I agree, I'm not talking about the inauthentic with how you're feeling? Because that you can read through that. So yes, it is we are, we do want to encourage authentic, honest communication. But if you are not thinking about how your messaging is going to land, then it may never land. The point that you're trying to address. Or the point you're trying to make may never land. Well, if you're not thinking about the tone, the audience, how where are you in your emotional spin physical space? Are you tired, hungry, exhausted, stressed?

Oh, you have no idea how many people I see start a post, and they're ranting and raving. But there'll be like, you know, at the end of like, I'm sorry, I had a bad day. I'm like, Well, then why are you doing this? Like what is like, if you need to get it out, go scream into a pillow? Why are you screaming on the internet? Like, like, just so they even know, Erica, they know they're like, I already know that my perspective is skewed because I've had a bad day. So I'm just still going to come in here and shut on the floor and light it on fire and watch all of you tried to deal with it. Because Because because that's what happens. That is there are some that everybody's personalities come out. Right. There are people who want to pick apart your point. Take the opposite side, play devil's advocate, there are people who get mad and just launch back with anger. There are some people who are and I'm assuming their parent, their parents were alcoholics. They want very badly to stop the fight. Right, like and so there's like all of that. And all these voices come together. And it's fascinating to watch none of them understand where the other came from. And, and, and it's fascinating to watch each one of them not care how it lands because it goes on both ways. You can see if you step back If you can see what people mean, you just, it's not what they said. And that's interesting, you know, and then when you try to reframe it can sound what's the word I want? You have to be able to try to reframe without insulting them, or making them think that you're going Oh, okay. But have you thought of it this way? Like, that's not the way to go? Obviously, this is going to be all over the place. I'm sorry. Yes. I've seen a lot of this.

So Well, I think what one of the couple things that are lost in online and we're talking about maybe some of these longer threads right on in the Facebook community, or anywhere online, that's what's lost is you can't pick up the tone necessarily, although sometimes you can. You can't read the other person's facial expression, body language. And so you're, you're posting how you're feeling in the moment. And I think, just like what I would advise in person, if you're, you know, you're coming in hot and bothered and tired, all the things, step away, even right, write that post, write it down, don't click Post yet, take you know, walk away, take some deep breaths, go eat, go take a walk, and then come back and see, reread it. Yeah. And so is that really what I wanted to post

because to your point earlier, if you're putting all this effort into saying something to someone, or writing something down, showing it to them, then you must want to get them to a level of your understanding, right, you're trying to impart how you see something. If you're, if you're gonna run it again, if you're gonna run to the room and light the whole thing on fire, no one's gonna take your point. And so if it's really important to you, then deliver it in a way that that will be actionable for them that they can actually stop and go, Oh, that's not a bad idea. You know, like, that does make sense. You can, you can deliver it that way. By the way, these things help you having 504 conversations with your kids schools, like these things help a lot, you know, they're not just for this kind of communication. It's it's every kind of human interaction, where you're just trying to get across how you feel. And I think that's why the fights happen. I think that when you try to say something, and someone else doesn't understand it, there's a level of frustration that comes up inside of you that's difficult to deal with, because you don't feel heard. And then depending on how you grew up, that might hit you really poorly. And then you kind of get lit up like a firecracker a little bit too like not being heard is is a trigger I don't use the word trigger not being heard as a trigger for for many people. Je voc hypo penne has no visible needle, and is a premixed auto injector of glucagon for treatment of very low blood sugar in adults and kids with diabetes ages two and above. Find out more go to G vo glucagon.com forward slash juicebox G voc shouldn't be used in patients with insulinoma or pheochromocytoma. Visit G voc glucagon.com/risk. My daughter has been wearing and using an omni pod tubeless insulin pump since she was four years old. And she's a freshman in college now about to be 19 this summer. So that's a long time, right? I don't want to do the math, but roughly it's over 15 years. And Arden has been wearing a nominee pod every second of every day for the last 15 years. It is a friend in this journey. It is dependable and valuable and easy to use. And it is not a detriment. I mean, it's not in your way. There's no tubing, you can wear it when you swim, you can wear it when you're working out in the shower. You don't have to take it off or anything. It really is absolutely fantastic. Now on the pod has two different versions that you can check into right they have the Omni pod dash if you want to just put your settings in and make all your decisions yourself. Fantastic, fantastic pod. And they have the Omni pod five, the Omni pod five is an algorithm right? It's making decisions about basil. It's making decisions about corrections. It's really something else. It's next level on the pod five or on the five dash whatever you're looking for. If it's tubeless if it's easy, it's on the pod Omni pod.com forward slash juice box you head over there right now and check it out. You may actually be eligible for a free 30 day trial the Omni pod dash you should ask and and see unless you want the Omni pod five and then I wouldn't do the dash trial. But anyway, you know what I'm saying? Omni pod dot com forward slash juice box, get the insulin pump that my daughter has been wearing every day, for 15 years. For full safety risk information and free trial terms and conditions, you can visit omnipod.com forward slash juice box. If you're like me and you like Erica, you can check her out at Erica forsythe.com, or call her at 626-344-2266. Erica is a licensed Marriage and Family Therapist. She's got a brick and mortar store in California, I don't think therapists call their place the store. But she can also help you online. If you're in California, Utah, Oregon or Florida. She is really terrific. She has had type one for 30 years helps a lot of people with type one diabetes, Erica forsyth.com. You know,

yes. In in, in, in person communication, you're able to do reflective listening and say, I think this is what you're saying? I'm let me let me double check. Or you know, are you saying are you saying it this way? You're saying it that way? And then you have an opportunity to to confirm or disagree? Yeah, right. And then on line, it's a little bit more challenging to communicate that way. But I do see people do that sometimes say, is this what you're trying to say? And that's such a beautiful way to say hey, I'm, I'm reading I hear you I see you is this what you're trying to say? And that can often interrupt, you know, intervene and interrupt the conflict and the spiraling of attacks that happen,

though some of those are very good interviewing techniques to, like, my wife will joke she'll say, and I don't know how much she's joking. She'll be like, sometimes I walk past that room. And I think who's that lovely man interviewing that person who seems to be very understanding and want to know more? Because, because that's what I'm doing for an hour, when I'm talking to somebody a guy I'm trying to get how they feel. And when there are times where I'm motivated to tell them how I feel, or to offer up a parable. It's like, hey, well, what about this, you know, but in your regular life, it's difficult. And I, the longer I make this podcast, the better I get at being a real person away from this microphone, because you have to be interested in what the other person is saying. And it can't be judgmental. Like you can't be judging people while they're talking. Because when you do, all that's happening is you're coming up with argumentative responses to while they're talking. They say something like, well, that's wrong. I'll tell you, I know what's right here. I'm gonna say this, it's not a fight, you're not trying to win. You don't I mean, you're you think something, they think something, you all say it, nothing has to change. You know, like, and I think that's one of the one of the misconceptions is that every one of these interactions somehow needs to end with the other person changing their mind. And that's not how things work, you're offering up an idea, it'll get planted in their head as a seed and may or may not grow. And that's all you can do. Like, you know, you can't you can't run around changing people's minds, good information, give them give them your best information and see, you know, if they don't pick some of it up. Makes sense.

Yes. And it will. And I think that, you know, we're we are passionate, particularly and you know, how we live our lives, the choices we make, how we choose to manage not only diabetes, but our our lifestyles. And if it's working for you, I enjoy it, I see and hear the passion in the comments, right? And you're wondering, this is how it's working for me, and I want you to be able to see it and feel it and live it this way, too. So I think oftentimes, the intent, and the motivation behind some of the stronger comments is because it's, you're passionate, and it's working for you. And you want other people to, you know, quote, see the light. But oftentimes, people aren't ready to hear that. And if you weren't recognizing that, maybe the tone is too strong. It's just gonna land flat. Yeah.

And what you lack I'll tell you what, like banking podcast, all I'm doing is sharing how we're managing my daughter's diabetes, right? And I mean, it's gotten bigger than that, but at its core, that's what it is. I don't get I don't hear back from people. Like I say my thing and I go, Alright, listen, here's what I think. You don't need to think it. If you don't, I don't care. You know, like, but here's what I think. You can't do that in a in a face to face or screen to screen conversation because you say something, and then they fire back in. Everyone's always trying to be either you're in a good conversation where everybody's being like, light and supportive, and thoughtful, or you're in a crappy conversation where everyone's trying to win. Get a dig in. You know, be funny. That's the other thing. A lot of you are not as funny as you think you are like me, God bless you. I'm probably not as funny as I think I am but a lot of fun. A lot of you, and so like, but there's levels, there's levels of of that too, like, were that your humor doesn't land, or how hard it is to write sarcasm. You know, there's so many things, but I really do take your point about the passion. Because I think that's at the core of the of any low carb argument I've ever seen in my life is just people are like, I found this thing that really helps me trying to tell you about it. You're not listening, you're killing yourself, I know. And then somebody else will come in and say, Well, I found a way to manage with insulin perfectly fine. And my uncle and yours are exactly the same. And so you don't understand, you're telling me I'm wrong. Nobody wants to be told they're wrong. Nobody wants to be told that they're doing something wrong or thinking about something incorrectly. And there are only certain trusted voices that get away with pointing that stuff out. And for the most part, it's not a thing we can just willy nilly do between strangers or even sometimes? I don't know, even sometimes people you know, really well, I actually think that's harder. I always think about, you know, I grew up watching my son play baseball. And if your kids pitching, and they're struggling, you don't send the father out to talk to them on the mound, you send somebody else, somebody else who doesn't have a lot of history with them. And, you know, isn't quietly angry about something that happened a week and a half ago in the house and stuff like that. So anyway, I don't know. What do you think about all this?

Well, I think that oftentimes, it might feel easier to express our, our passionate opinion, online. I mean, we talked to our children, our teenagers about, you know, being aware of online bullying and trolling. And I think one of the things that I constantly tell children is, you know, what, would you say this? Would you write this out? What you want to write online? Would you say that in person to that, that, that friend? Would you write that post? Would you write that comment if that person was standing right in front of you. And I think when we're in the heat of the moment, and we're on our phone, and we're wandering around, and we're reading the thread, and we're just want to put our two cents in. I think it's so easy to get caught up in the moment. But just to think, okay, these are a bunch of people I may have never met before. But if they were all standing in my living room, would I be say this, you know, saying when I say this in this way, and that's a hard thing to remember, in the moment, I totally understand.

I just got back from a trip where I was gone for like, 11 days, this is like, the one time this year I didn't make the podcast for a week. And other people helped me with the Facebook group more than they usually do. And I wasn't looking at it as much. But I posted before I left, I was like, I'm leaving. I'm going away at my family hold all your crazy inside till I get back, please. Read. And time. In this is such an interesting thing to break down a person made a post, it was a meme about Plan B. And it you know, plan B the pill, like, you know, the the day after, oh, and for the life of me. I don't even know why it was funny. Like, but people told me it was I was like, alright, so I but when they put it up, it's easy to think, Oh, well, this is to stir up the pot, you know, but it wasn't that you really just thought this is funny. And here. And then it was diabetes related. Somehow I forget how. And I saw it go up. Because one of the moderators reported it so I could see it just so I could see it. And now I see it. I'm like, well, this isn't gonna go well. And my first thought is like, how does the poster not know that? How does the person who puts it up not know, at some point, this is going to go poorly, this is going to turn into an abortion conversation online, right? And then, but I always take the fact of like, let them be adult like they can. They're adults, let them do what they want, you know, as long as nobody's mean or blah, blah, blah. But man, it just went exactly like you thought, you know, four out of five people got the got the joke, and they were okay with it and weren't put off by it. And some people took it as an opportunity to say, oh, no, I have feelings about this. I'm going to share them with you now. And then other people come back in and share the opposite side. And then here we go. And the I think two things as the person who runs a large group, I think, how did you not know this was gonna happen? Because I don't think the person had that intention. And my other thing is, this group takes in 300 new members a week. Like, wow, okay, so 4050 people a day come in. I don't want them seeing you ranting and raving about Plan B on day one, because they're going to think that's what this is about. And the truth is, that's not not true at all like that one post is meaningless on a group that size That group gets 110 new posts a day on average. Wow. Okay. And so most people aren't even going to see the stupid posts. But the algorithm sees people going back and forth and says, aha, people care about this and start pushing it towards other people's posts. And now suddenly, in my mind, everyone who's been there knows Scott takes care of this stuff. This bush doesn't go on here. I'm not worried about it. But those new people might think, Oh, where am I? What? What asylum Am I in right now? You know, right? Because I don't think people understand no matter what side of an argument you're on. Yes. Sound crazy.

And it just, it just feels like that meant that's probably not the place to have that type of conversation. Yeah. But I understand how and why it happens. And, and perhaps, you know, the person who posted it is a quick witted, funny person sarcastic, and thought this would be a funny, you know, response to your posts. And then here we go. But didn't pause to think about how is this going to land? And that's how it does happen. But obviously, not probably ill intent. It don't originally,

I'm thinking back now on I think there was like candy, the plan B pill and something else. And the idea was, like, be prepared. And like so I think they thought like the candy like low blood sugars and like they the Okay, yeah. But still, you're just like, oh, dear Lord, like this is like, if you had to write what I thought was, if you had to run this page for a day, you would never do that. And not because I don't want the place to be fun or free, free minded. I absolutely, you should see this stuff i i Don't get involved in because I really do think people are adults, and they should do what they want. But like, I don't know, like, when you go back to a regular conversation, that big kind of blown up idea. It's the same thing when you're talking to your sister, and you're trying to get something across, it's not a good place to bring up something that happened 10 years ago, unless you're trying to be in an argument with your sister, right? And in that case, I say just be more honest, just look at her and go, I'm so mad at you for the thing that happened 10 years ago, let's talk because that might actually get you somewhere. I don't know. I don't understand why. You know, I keep hearing it broken down as people are, like, tribal or on teams. And I don't even think it's that. Like, I just think that people have a collection of thoughts. And they defend them, like very vociferously, like they defend their thoughts, because I think they think their thoughts are them. But your thoughts, like your ideas about? I don't know, politics, that's not really who you are. That's your thoughts about politics. And I think it gets commingled and then you feel like you're defending yourself all the sudden, you know,

yes, and, and I hear people who respond there, when there's been other, you know, controversial topics that have come up within the Facebook group. And people can say, well, you can choose not to read them or not to participate. Turn off your phone, you know, and I think those are all if you are finding that you are reading some of the posts and having a visceral response or, you know, feeling offended, check in with yourself of how you're feeling and is it appropriate to respond back? Online? Do you need to go take care of yourself in another way? And just to be mindful of that, like, maybe you're feeling your your it is does feel personal? And and maybe you need to process that. And it might not be the best way to process it online. But again, those are I know, these are really hard steps to take. It's kind of your automatic thought and action is to respond back,

right? Yeah, this just might not be a setting that's right for you in this moment. And I mean, from the outside, I swear I'm trying to have this conversation because there's two reactions. There's the like, flippant, like, human reaction, like Just leave if you don't like if it bothers you, but you're not putting yourself in their position, where they're like, you've now just let off every synopsis in the wrong word, like you're firing their brain up, you're like, Oh, my God, this is promoting something that I think is wholly wrong. Or, you know, I have to say something now I'm now I'm the defender of everyone who they imagine is going to see it. And even that's a funny thing about the internet. Everyone's not seeing what you think they're seeing. There was this thing years ago, when the diabetes space moved into Twitter at first, I think it's been long enough now I can make fun of people for this. So there were diabetes, people that got on Twitter, and they would have these like, like interactions online. Then later, they would report back. My tweet got 1.3 million impressions. And I'm like, why? 1.3 million people read your tweet, you've got 2000 followers, what are we talking about? You know, and then you realize that they take the 2000 number, I have 2000 followers. And each one of those followers has the amount of followers they have. So we'll assume that their followers saw it, too. So my tweet could have been seen by 1.3 million people. And then they'd run around espousing that that was the reach. And I think people believe that. Now I as a person who puts content in the world can tell you that if it was that easy to reach 1.3 million people, I'd be sitting on a gold chair in a gold room right now. And I am not, okay. So it's not that easy to reach people, you are not talking to as many people as you think you are. And when you post something that gets 100 likes on it, I want you to know, 100 is a very small number. There are billions of people on the planet, you in your in a group with 40,000 people, and you got confirmation from 100 of them, you have statistically reached none of them. And but people have this feeling online, like my voice is carrying. And I'm impacting people, and I don't think people realize they're not they're not, I have a huge reach online, and I am not impacting as many people as you think I am. So you on your private Facebook group, we're talking to yourself and your old neighbor, some guy from high school. So good luck.

Yeah, I feel like if, if that maybe people do find, you know, we know that people find value in numbers. And are they impart that they're valuable based on how many likes how many repos? How many shares? And if that is where you find value, that's okay. But also, conversely, you are valuable, I would say, you notice that you're valuable, even without all of those likes, and perhaps maybe kind of reevaluate. Why, what are you saying and why? And what are you getting out of it?

Yeah, I don't mean to say that they're wrong. I mean, by say that they're not changing the world the way they think they are. We have a whole generation of kids who think they're advocates, because they have an Instagram, like, You're not helping anyone get nice try, like, like your your post that reached 500 people is not going to change a company. I know you think it's going to it isn't going to, but it doesn't mean your thoughts are wrong, or that you shouldn't live your life that way. Teach your children that way. Speak to people that way, where that are that what you're saying is not incredibly valuable? Like you're just I mean, think of all the good things in the world that we can all agree with. Clean water is a great example, right? We all know that. Okay. How come it doesn't happen? I mean, you all have an Instagram, have you not said something about it? How come how come the people in Flint, Michigan aren't swimming and great? Well, it's because that's not how this works. And, but people get stuck in the idea, especially now that social media is in everybody's hand that like I have real power here. And you just you do your power within your own life, you know, and you can I hate to say this, like, act locally, and maybe that will grow. But I don't know, you're not. There was that one moment in social media, where you could scare a company in two seconds. You could have a bad a bad vacation or something. And you could get on Twitter and go, Hey, you guys, you know, baba, baba, bah. And the company would literally like find you and call you and be like, we're so sorry. If you take that tweet down. We will be like this. Now nobody even they don't even do that anymore. Like, I don't know how to tell you like most companies. The way most companies handle, people who are upset with them online is just ignored away. They don't really do anything about it. And how was that? How was that what happens? That's what happens because what they learned is your tweet, your Facebook thing, your Instagram thing, it really doesn't. It doesn't hit hard enough to make a problem for them.

So the ripple effect isn't as significant as you think it is.

And so while you're busy online, or in your own family ranting and raving about something, you've really just kind of solid the relationship you have with these very Pete these close people who are with these 50 people who saw your post or the seven or eight people in a room with you. You're not You're not doing what you think you're doing. But you could be and that's what we talked about earlier. You absolutely could be impacting people differently if you found a better way to deliver what you were saying. And I just I hope people think about that, like the delivery person, you know,

and I think in that day livery. And I see people do this in the threads as well is remind if it gets kind of out of hand and out of control. Someone will come in, you know, either the peacemaker or the reminder of like, well, let's go back to the topic. That's the the first post, because it's really easy to get caught up in the discussion. And it's law, you know, the very first point or question or comment is lost. And so that would be maybe something helpful to do as well. If you're wanting to engage in a conversation or comment, go back to the original post to see, you know, what, what was this person asking? And I think we've talked about this before, as well as when you are the first poster in a comment. Or asking for to be very clear with what you're needing as well, because sometimes it is venting, sometimes it is seeking, you know, clarification or seeking questions. And you can even lead with that, like, just looking for some validation, or really looking for some new ideas on how to treat lows in this specific area of my child's life. You know,

it's all very doable as well, like, you have to be patient and listen, take it from me. I, my Facebook group is one of the largest groups for diabetes in Facebook, and it is it easily one of the most active if not the most active one. And it's also what most people describe as a nice situation to be yes, I did that on purpose. I built that that way on purpose. And then I introduced other things, I have blended together, people who eat all different kinds of ways. In one diabetes Facebook group, not seen anywhere else. There's low carb, there's vegetarian face diet, but not me. I'm like you got diabetes, forget type one or type two, you come on in here, I don't give a crap how you eat, you're allowed to talk in here. I brought type twos together with type ones. And nobody's done that. I've been around this space for 20 years, you people wouldn't say type one and type two diabetes in the same sentence level in the same paragraph. Because what what were they afraid of? Type ones would say, Well, I don't want to be categorized as type two, because those people did it to themselves, which isn't even true. And yeah, and then. And then the type twos would be like, Well, I don't want to be about them. They use insulin, they're really sick. That's the bad kind. The like, then they started using words like the bad kind of diabetes for this one. Like, in sadly the worst kind. Yeah, that was prevalent, and still is not my space. Because I set it up not to be that way I set expectations. People follow those expectations. When people fall outside of the line of them. I don't ban their account. I don't like I write in public. I respond back, I don't DM anybody, you try to DM me, you're not hearing back from me. I'm not getting involved in your crazy yelling and screaming. But online, I'll say listen, here's here's what I'm seeing. You seem like you are very passionate about this. And I think this might be why is that right? And but can you also see that this person seems very passionate about it, too. And I think they have their own reasons. And you guys can share information with each other without yelling at each other without telling each other, you're wrong. Because you're both right. And this conversation is important that people come by and say what are you going to delete it, not going to delete it, it's valuable. And the other thing you don't realize is that the 10 or 20, or 50, people that are commenting in a post are again, the very small minority of people who are actually seeing it. And most people, it's sort of like talking about politics. We focus on the right and the left, and we ignore everybody in the middle who basically agrees. And that happens online to like the people who you know, not don't think of it just right and left but from, you know, polar opposite perspectives. And mostly everybody's like, Oh, that lady makes a good point. But she's a little weird. And that guy makes a good point. But I don't like the way he said it. And by the way, that's also very much something I've noticed too is that men can be taken as harsh when they're not being harsh. And I'm I'm, I used to be a current I used to communicate and current language, but not current embed just short and factual and to the point, and you can read it as it and guess what I did? And how rude. Yeah, guess what I did? I stopped writing like that. Because I wanted people to hear what I was saying. I knew I didn't mean anything bad by it. And there'd be other men that would come in and say no, you're misunderstanding. He's saying this. And they like Well, that's not how it makes me feel. And I'll tell you, that's a frustrating thing to hear. than to hear that you've said something in a very to you is a very clear and concise way. But then another person heard it and it made them up said, I'm upset by that, like, oh my god, I made you upset. Like, I'm just trying to, like lay this out factually, and get out of here because I don't have a lot of time to sit and like, I'm the I'm the guy making the pocket. I'm kind of busy. And it's like, so like, I'm trying to come in and say a thing. And I don't, I don't know, like, so what I learned was, I'm not writing to communicate exactly what I think when my brain says the words, I'm writing to communicate what I feel, and what I'm trying to impart and the bigger picture, it just you turn into a teacher, when you're, when you're communicating that way, I guess.

And over time, you have learned in practice that right you have developed that skill, it's it is it is a skill to communicate authentically, to a broader audience who can understand what you're saying and receive it, it is a learned skill,

it took me a long time to build up to where it is, and I'm not, I'm still not great, like amazing at it. But I'm much much better at the when I started. It also like you probably seem like once or twice a year, somebody will get out of hand, I get angry about certain things I don't like companies selling their crap to people. And that kind of stuff. And people trying to slip in and slip in links to things and if I get upset about that, and I will like be more authoritative when I come back. But I'm between you, me and everybody who's listening. That's the razor's edge of my anger. Like, if I let my whole anger out, you'd be like, Oh, my God. And I'm articulate and know how to write and how to communicate, like I could be. I could be piercing if I wanted to be like, I could knock you over out of your chair, if I wanted to be, I don't want to do that. If that's not my intention, or my desire, or my thought, but I don't know that intention, desire and thought gets involved, when people are arguing, I think they just reached down as far into their bag of horrors, they can pull out a handful of it and throw it forward. And I guess that's a different consideration, right? Like, when you when you aren't actually interested in communicating, you actually are interested in hurting somebody when you see that, just ignore it. And yeah, I'll tell you to, from from, from a lot of experience, those people, they come around eventually, some of them but most of them disappear before they come around. And just just telling your Facebook feed, like I don't want to see from that person might be a good idea. You know, yeah, so

you can set obviously emotional and physical boundaries around people in your life like that, and and on mine. And I will say, you know, conversely, going back to the point the community that you have created, from when I do read lots of threads. The majority are kind and supportive. Yeah. And and, and will advocate an intervene when it feels like things are spiraling, you know, other other members.

Oh, I see them. I'm like, Yeah, manage the threads

self managed. Exactly. And I think that's why it has been such a success. And when people do feel safe, and supported and go there for support, ideas, interventions,

I wouldn't want to give the impression that it's like, it's like the Wild West, like, I mean, I don't know the exact number. But overwhelmingly, 99.9% of that group is just lovely people helping each other. But every once in a while someone's like, Hey, you shouldn't eat this. And I'm like, Ah, and even that I've quelled. It took me two years to get out the like, we do not tell people how to eat, when, like, if you do not tell people how to eat in this group, it took me two years, and I'm telling you, it's good now, like we've fixed it, like it's, it runs smoothly.

It's been it's been normalized that, you know, you can eat the way you want to eat, but you don't have to, you know, inform and advocate others to do to say, Yeah, you

don't have to, and by the way, because there's no good way to do it. Like, what are you gonna say to somebody you don't think they know, you know, your genius is gonna, like turn the light on over their head. They know, they got a hand in the burrito bag, they're upset with themselves, they already know. They're like, I shouldn't be doing this. And here, it isn't happening anyway, you coming along and telling them how you went low carb and look at me and pulling up your shirt and showing your abs and stuff like that, hey, helping anybody. I've also changed the flow of how people think about succeed, about celebrating successes with their diabetes. That used to be a very frowned upon thing in the group. I've always maintained that people's success should act as hope and guidance, and that you need them to come up and say, hey, look what I did. I used to be a seven and a half. I'm a 5.2. Now, I think you should see that and think I might be able to do that too. I don't just think you should think that I offer you episodes to listen to so that you can go try to accomplish that on your own. And I don't know how many people who would have have accepted unhealthy lives are now living better because of that. And that is the thing that the diabetes community in general stood firmly behind not doing for years. Never tell people if you're doing well, don't show them a good graph, don't show them a good number, you're gonna make them feel bad. And I thought, why can't we make them feel hopeful?

So yes, I want I love that reframe so that if you are listening to this now, and you're seeing somebody say, my agency went from, you know, a nine to a six, or whatever it is, that if you see that and feel either ashamed, or hopeless, that's also feedback to say, what do you need to do? Do you need help managing the diabetes, you need help with your thoughts and emotions and how you're seeing that data. But that is the motivation behind sharing that is hope and not to shame.

That's why I asked people to, to leave reviews of the podcast, because then I can use them in social media. Like when you come along, you say, I'm 53 years old, I've had diabetes for 25 years. And I started listening this podcast last year. And this this and this has happened now. That's amazing. Like, I'm reading a note right before you and I got on from a type two, who was like, Thank you for making this type two Pro Tip series. I've been up all night listening to this. And you have exactly encapsulated how I feel and all the guilt and the shame that I have from this. And I'm going to do about it like that kind of stuff. Like that's big stuff. And, but you'll notice I didn't do it by getting online and going who rose the boat, you roll a boat, go for a run. You're on? Yeah, like I noticed this the other day, I just time or am I going to take you? Yes. Okay, now we're good. We're good. Okay. It occurred to me the other day, in the last five or six years, podcasts from very healthy fit, often, like military guys have become incredibly popular, like they are very, very popular. And I am not saying by any stretch of the imagination that exercising is not what you should be doing. We should all be exercising, and probably a lot of us more than we are. My point is, with the popularity of all this stuff. How come I don't see people getting thinner? Why don't I see people healthier? Why am I see more guys running around 10 miles a day? Like, yes, it's interesting to listen to. And it might feel very motivational. But if a year and a half later, you still have 30 pounds to lose, then the guy screaming and yelling at you and the podcast didn't help you made you feel better for a little while, because you're like, Oh, I'm gonna do this. Except he can do it because it's his job. And you work at IBM, and you're sitting on your ass for nine hours. And you can't go outside at four in the morning and go for a 20 mile run. Right, like so. I understand why they're popular. But I don't know why we don't stop back and look and go. Yeah, but they're not really helping that many people. And, or else, I mean, that popularity should have shifted into mass change. And it didn't, they're reaching millions of people. And yet every time I turn on the TV, that's not the case of what's going on, right? I've always taken that perspective with the podcast, which is it needs to help you not like that was one of my first founding thoughts about this. Like when I was writing a blog, I was like, it doesn't matter. Like, like, Yes, I can write a blog post and say, hey, my daughter's blood sugar was low tomorrow morning. And that sucked. And here's how I feel. And then other people see that and they go, Oh, that happens to me too. And I know there's value in that, like I absolutely do. But I just kept thinking like, Wouldn't it be better if you weren't low at 2am? Like, why don't we get to that part? Why don't we start talking to people about how to actually not what they should be doing, or what the right thing to do would be, but a thing that would actually move them towards a better place. And that maybe they could then make their own motivation and their own. Force that in so you don't need somebody yelling at you to get up at? I don't know,

do whatever. And that might work for some people, but not most. Yeah.

And listen, I'm not I am also saying I'm sure it's helped some people and God bless. Terrific. But you know, I know me. And like and, and I think that there's a way again, you're not just getting on and saying do this. Like here I am again today to tell you these are the right things. If you do these things, you'll be okay blah, blah, I tell a story, this the story of this lady and how it happened to her. And here's the guy that happened him and a little kid and a mom and a 50 year old and a 14 until you can hear so many stories that you think I could be one of those people. I probably have one of those people like what is this? They're doing that I'm not doing this so my my point again about talking to people is communication is not for telling people how to think communication is for sharing things, and then you hope that people take something from it. Whether it's in a one on one conversation guy with a podcast or a Facebook group, any people I got this all figured out if you just listen to me, you'd be okay.

You got all the tools? Sure.

It's just about how you talk to people. Now, if we have time, I'm going to transition into something else. Okay, it's gonna come right out and say it. Okay, all y'all who seem to get off online saying, I met people using a CGM who don't have diabetes, or you can't use a GLP. One to lose weight, because it's a type two medication, and then you get all upset about it. I gotta say, you should stop. You know, like, it's just, it doesn't make any sense to me at all. If if a person needs to lose weight, and they need a medication to lose weight, and it makes their life better, what do you care if somebody wants to see their blood sugar so that they know the impact that grapes are having on them so that they can talk themselves into not eating grapes anymore? What do you care? Like? Like, I know, everybody's like, well, there'll be a shortage, like, stop it. There's not going to be a shortage. Pharma companies know how to make stuff that makes them money. There'll be okay, okay, maybe there was a moment where, you know, GLP TLP ones came became like, you know, in the Tiktok world and stuff like that, and the company got caught off guard, they're not gonna get caught off guard again, they want to sell the drug to people who need it, that's their business. There's not going to be a shortage, there's not going to be a shortage of insulin, there's not going to be a shortage of Dex coms or li braze. Because Dex calm and Abbott sell CGM. And if you want to buy more CGM, they want to sell you more. Okay, like, like, there might be a moment where there's an ebb or a flow but but if you've been listening to this podcast for years, the CEO of Dexcom has been on here saying like, we want to, we started with type ones. And then we want to get Medicare and Medicaid because that's a pathway to insurance understanding what it does for people. And then once they understand what it does for people, we want to get it for type twos. And then they're going to want to pre diabetes. And then guess what, now you help eliminate this illness for so many people. Like why would you get online and rant and rave at somebody? Because they have a CGM? Is it because you can't afford it?

They I feel like most of the time is maybe fear, fear of what scares not scarcity of this of the product, which, you know, that was there for a little bit for one of the drugs. But I do agree that these companies want to make money and so they will figure out a way to prevent that from happening again. But I think it's often fear when we lash out and criticize other people's choices. It's often because we are we're scared. We're not we're not certain of how their actions are. They're going to affect me personally down the line. And, and maybe you really have a personal opinion and feel like that's it's the use is an improper or ineffective. But I'm not sure going back to you know, is is online communication, the best forum for that probably probably not

also, you scare people into stopping, saying saying their story. Like, I think, you know, we just Jenny and I just recorded a type two episode this morning about GLP ones and other medications you will use for type two. And I said, I get why people are like, I hear you. I know that some people have like a famine mentality. And they think, oh my god, it's going to be gone. Like I mean, one of the most popular conversations online is like, what, what, what if the zombies come? Where am I getting insulin from? You're not. But but the zombies aren't coming? You're okay. You know, they're gonna keep making it. And so I said to Jenny, I'm behind people getting on tick tock and saying, like, hey, look, I stuck this thing in my leg. And I started doing it last year, and I'm 70 pounds lighter, and my life is better and I am healthier, because then other people who feel stigmatized will go Alright, well, that lady put a video up of herself. I would never have let somebody see me like this. But look at her now. Like, this is terrific. You know, like, I think I may have come out and said, I think everybody that needs to lose 40 pounds to get this drug like imagine where the world would be a year from now. If everybody who had 40 pounds to lose had lost it and felt better about themselves and was healthier and didn't need heart

replaced on the side.

Yeah, I mean, just forget financially. How about happiness? What if those people all their hunger was all satiated for whatever reason? Like yeah, maybe some of them had crap parents and maybe some of their brains just tell them to eat like anywhere in between. But if if an entire generation shouldn't people could let that go, then their kids would grow up with a better understanding of how to fuel their bodies, then maybe this wouldn't. So stop being so scared of everything all the time. And I said, I hope type twos start jumping up and going, Hey, here's my mom, Jericho or my ozempic. And instead of showing me their weight loss, show me your a one C coming down and your stability happening and like, you know, back to your life and that kind of stuff. Like, I don't think hiding, we're forcing people to stop talking is the right way to do this. And you don't know what's gonna happen, or what good might come from some personal trainer wearing a CGM, or, you know, my brother wearing it or because he's got type two and, and in his doctor says, Well, you know, it's not covered for this yet, or like, your insurance won't cover it or something like that, like, you want to normalize this stuff to help people you have no idea what good places it might go. And instead, it's right back to I'm the whole set. I'm the world. I'm the center of this conversation. There's a person who has the thing I don't have, it's not fair. It's not right. And I need it, and therefore they shouldn't have it. Those two things are not connected to each other, like, like your lack of financial ability, or the deficit you have with your health insurance, if you have health insurance, or that you don't have health insurance or whatever. It doesn't have anything to do with that person. It's not like if they don't buy it, the company is gonna mail it to you for free. That's not happening. I get the feeling. I understand the anger. I understand the I understand all of it.

And the pain, right like I want that, but I can't afford it. I want that for my whole family to experience CGM. But how do we do that mean? It's they're experiencing pain, right? In those moments

percent. It's, it's a hard like, and I'm not, I'm not saying it's not. I'm saying going online and railing against that person. They're not going to stop using the CGM or the GLP. One or whatever you think whatever you're yelling about. They're just going to stop talking about it. And then, and then imagine, I guess, imagine if I didn't start telling people how we manage my daughter's blood sugars. Like they're like, do that. Okay. Okay. Imagine that I, which, by the way, happened to me, but I pushed through it. Imagine I started speaking up about how we managed Arden's insulin. And someone was to have said to me, maybe this is a direct quote, you can't tell people how you manage your daughter's insulin because it's dangerous. And I went, I don't agree with you shut up. And then I didn't listen to that person. But what if I did? What if I just went Oh, yeah, okay. The show's got over 11 million downloads. now. It's getting a half a million a month. Right? Like, it's touching places, like you just can't imagine. And it's and the notes come constantly about my agency, my variability, back to running, I had a baby, if any idea how many people call me to tell me, I am the reason they had a baby. I don't get any of America, but they call me okay. And I'm just saying, like, don't stop some middle aged person on Tiktok, from showing you how their weight loss is going. Because it really you don't know where this is going to go. And I don't see why it's a bad thing. Like, listen, I told Jenny, I'll say to you, too. I understand the diet, you know, fueling better fueling exercise, like this is the key. But I don't know how long a person's got to live, where that's not helping. And then, and then society ends up telling you, oh, they're their last cause. And so we write them off, and we'll just get the next generation. But that doesn't happen. Because now I'm hearing that kids are getting type two diabetes. And you know, and obesity in children is going up. It's it's a weird thing to look at people like products coming off an assembly line and going oh, that one didn't work. Throw it away. The next one will be Oh, no, that one's worse. Throw it away. No one ever goes back and looks at the assembly line. They're just they're just like, oh, yeah, just keep throwing, we'll keep the good ones. Get rid of the bad ones. Keep the good ones get rid of the bad ones. There are people for Christ's sake there. You know, I mean, they're not they're not Cadbury eggs, like they're, they're people. Just you know, by the way, you could still eat a Cadbury egg if it had like a split out of it, but and I don't know that people see it that way. But I do. You yell and scream at somebody shouldn't be wearing a CGM. You are silencing them, and you are stopping a potential benefit from coming for other people. And maybe, and this would be terrible. Maybe you shame them out of using it. And that would be horrible. So I understand why you feel that way. But I mean, from my perspective, you sound you said On silly when you're saying it, you just do you know, the your argument is not the argument. If you can't afford it, that's an argument. Should it be cheaper? That's an argument. Yeah. Should insurance companies cover it? That's an argument. Other people shouldn't get it that I don't understand, like, so. I don't know. Maybe there's a reason I don't get but I just think, shine a light on everything and let the good stuff rise to the top. And let's see what happens. I'm sorry. I thought Wait.

Yes. No, I Well, I think it just Yeah, going back to why why do we make comments about certain things, going back to just the beginning of either we're passionate, we want to convince others about our opinion. We feel threatened or scared or excited. And we want to share, and I think just constantly trying to apply that, you know, the filter or the lens of how is this going to land with the viewer or the reader? And just try to check yourself again? No, it's just just check yourself sounds so easy. But just constantly applying the filter. And I think we can, it'll be in even, it's already a safe place, the community, the Facebook community that you've created, but it could be even safer during that practice, which I think would be awesome.

Well, that's terrific. And while I'm busy saying things that people aren't gonna like, let me just add this. When you argue that they have type two, and I have type one, we're not the same and they can't be here. That sounds the same to me. It sounds it sounds absolutely ridiculous to me, I've had that said to me, I've received emails and said, I see you're doing type two content. Stop it. You keep this podcast type one. I don't know what that means. Like, uh, you know, meanwhile, a lady with type two wrote me the other day and said, You know, I asked for a C peptide test. And the doctor said, I don't understand like, what's, how would your management change? If you're using insulin? We think your type two which you're using is on how would your management change? If you knew you were type one. And that person said, well, then I would think it wasn't my fault. And I and so I see, I see that. But at the same time, type two type one, it's still not your fault. Like we can dig into it. But foods been going wrong for about seven decades now. And we and we've been pushed into more processed higher carb, higher sugar stuff that tells your brain you're hungry, you're hungry, you're hungry. And then somebody ends up with insulin resistance and pre diabetes. When we go, oh, they did it themselves. You're out of your mind. Like, like, everybody who talks like that is foolish. That's there's five people who actually have to go out and buy spinach and make it with a half a piece of chicken and don't put any oil on it, and then go for a 10 mile run and the rest of you are foolish. Okay, like so. That's that. And I, again, I think it's one of those like, Well, they did it to themselves. It's not about them. It's about you not wanting to wonder how it happened to you. Right? Like, I'm, I don't see a difference between that argument. And when somebody tried to tell me 10 years ago, that Hurricane Katrina, people who were trapped by Hurricane Katrina, they just didn't work hard enough. And that's why they couldn't get away from it. I'm like, You're out of your mind. Like, you don't understand generational poverty, if you're talking like that. That's right. Yeah. And so anyway, I feel

like that that's, we could talk about this, you know, the topic between type one and type two, and the shame involved in that and how, you know, even 32 years ago, when I was almost 33, when I was diagnosed, it was very, it was juvenile versus adult onset. And then it became more type one and type two. And even in my generation as a little girl, I remember being told, Well, you don't you don't have type to this and then that became my narrative like, oh, that's type one. It's not the kind that I brought on myself. But that that line and I still do hear that because there's either if there's fear, there's shame. But that doesn't help either community have type one or type two right in that mindset, and that neither group or subset within the type one let's talk about the lotta you know, there's so many different groups within the diabetes umbrella that none of us want it and there and we still don't really even know why we all have it, but no one did it to themselves.

I tend to that I say, the people you got to think bigger, like, like you really you got to think bigger, like stop looking at things. So like micro like, Oh, this is this and I got the bad and you got the good like, that's crazy. Like, you know, type ones. There are some type ones who are starting to use those GLP one medications, and they're helping them and Jenny told me about somebody who's Using 10 units a day less insulin on a GLP one and insulin it so they're looping with a GLP. One, okay? And 10 almost like 15 or 20% of their daily insulin has gone down. And, and they're losing weight. And and by the way, that drug was for type twos. So say thank you like, like, like what do I always say when people give me crap on it I'm like I would prefer if you just said thank you and went away. But this is fun too. But, you know you My point is, you don't know what's going to come up with these things. And they might end up helping you. And I'll tell you right now if it becomes the common practice, that type ones do a once a week injection and insulin, there a one sees are all magically in the fives and they're eat more of the foods they want. And they're not gaining weight and blah, blah, because they're not eating a ton of stuff for Lowe's all the time to correct Yeah. Oh, my goodness, well, then I want am I going to hear a bunch of apologies? I don't think so.

That all sounds pretty amazing. Is the lady

wrote me going? Don't let these type twos in here. Is she gonna go? Oh, my fault, like no, like, so. You sound silly, is what I'm saying. Like just just just in a sentence. Just want for everybody else, what you want for yourself. That's all just want everybody to be okay, or better or happy or whatever is going to do it for them. And why don't they? Why do you care how they get to it? That's the part I don't understand. Like, just Why do you have an opinion about this? And not for nothing. You can take that sentence and apply it to basically everything that people argue about. And you'd be okay. Everybody's gonna have a reason. Like, oh, I'm defending this, or I'm defending that, or God told me or whatever the hell they're gonna say. But in the end. It's not you like it's not your life? Just, you know? I don't know. Let it be. It's a good song. You should go listen to it. I mean, my God. All right. What did I not do say? What'd I do? Wrong guy told me now?

No, I think I think we covered it. I think in essence, I think our goal was to Yeah, just want one everyone to get along. Just you know, I think communicate effectively, communicate authentically and communicate with compassion. And, and living that way, you'll feel better about yourself too, and the way you communicate with others.

And I'll tell you to not having a victim mentality is pretty helpful too. Because often the conversation you find yourself in is as much you're doing as it is someone else's. And instead of saying this person did this, or they said that or they made me upset, you might want to look at why that is. Because there are plenty of people who can hear things and go on without, you know, without crumbling and screaming and everything else and it's not always someone else's fault. Like I'm not saying you can't run into somebody who's an absolute prick, and like, just be like, Wow, what the hell, you know, but we've gotten to the point now where people are like you did this to me like, I don't know. Like, come on. Anyway, this will be fun. I can't wait to lose a bunch listeners over this one. Thank you.

All right, bye bye.

A huge thank you to one of today's sponsors, G voc glucagon, find out more about Chico Capo pen at G voc glucagon.com. Forward slash juicebox you spell that GVOKEGLUC AG o n.com. Forward slash juicebox. Also want to thank Omni pod and remind you that you can learn all about it and get started at Omni pod.com forward slash juice box check out the dash checkout the Omni pod five Omni pod.com forward slash juice box. And of course Erica is that Erica forsythe.com. Thank you so much for listening. I'll be back very soon with another episode of The Juicebox Podcast.

Hello friends, this is episode 894 of the Juicebox Podcast good news Erica Forsythe is back, Erica, of course a licensed Marriage and Family Therapist from California. You can learn more about her at Erica forsythe.com. Today the conversation between Eric and I begins with the idea of fault. People wanting to know why something happened, why did I get diabetes? Why did my child get diagnosed, that sort of thing. The conversation grows from there. While you're listening, please remember that nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise, always consult a physician before making any changes to your health care plan. We're becoming bold with insulin. If you have type one diabetes, or are the caregiver of someone with type one and a US resident, please complete the survey AT T one D exchange.org. Forward slash juicebox. This simple survey takes about 10 minutes to do and your answers move diabetes research forward T one D exchange.org Ford slash juice box go complete the survey please. And don't forget, if you want 35% off your entire order at cosy earth.com use the offer code juice box at checkout. This episode of The Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by ag one from athletic greens, athletic greens is going to give you a free one year supply of immune supporting vitamin D and five free travel packs. With your first purchase. All you have to do is visit my link athletic greens.com forward slash juicebox. Today's show is also sponsored by better help, you can get 10% off your first month of therapy@betterhelp.com forward slash juicebox. I was wondering if we could very specifically talk about the fault that I hear people talk about. My child has type one diabetes, and I have a thyroid thing. So it's my fault. Or my husband's aunt has RA and now my kid has blah, blah, blah. It's his fault. Or you know what I mean? Like the fault, the fault that gets addressed? It seems so it just seems like it happens to everybody. Like I don't think I've ever met a person who hasn't thought Why did this happen? Whose fault is it? And it's a strange way to think to me, but it's so common. So I wanted to ask you about it.

Yes, it is common. I think as parents. I think you said this a long time ago, one of our first episodes that you know when as a parent, you don't have your child and think when is my child going to get sick or when is my child going to be diagnosed with a chronic illness. So you have this mindset and hope that your child will be healthy. And then the first time the child gets injured, or the first time that your child gets sick. It's surprising and shocking. But then we also automatically as parents, I think want to find responsibility in ourselves or somebody else or something else. Because it's painful. It's shocking. It's surprising, and you're not starting out as a parent with that mindset.

So I I can almost get wanting to blame somebody else. That almost makes sense to me. But why do people relish in it being their fault? That happens? Like they wanted to like, want it's the wrong word. I don't know where I'm going with this. Exactly. There are just a lot of people who want to tell you. This is my fault. But I've said it a number of different ways. I've never once heard somebody say, Oh, you have blue eyes. That's my fault. They take credit for that. Right? Like, oh, if you get the blue eyes from me, you get that cheekbone for me. You get that jawline from me. Oh, you fart after dinner. That's your mother's fault. Like, like, Why? Why? Like, why do people? Why do you think that's important to people? That's my question, I guess.

Important, that's an interesting word choice. I think it might be their tendency or nature. When things feel out of control or chaotic. People sometimes have kind of an automatic default way of thinking or believing. And for some it's I'm going to blame myself I'm going to shame myself. Or I'm going to blame or shame others. But this focus on paid life feels chaotic. I feel out of control. And so my automatic This is how I function is I'm going to blame myself and fight and try and find reason, right? Like, I think people want to find an explanation. And when there is no true set, you know, explanation, it may be just their nature to place blame on themselves.

So, do you think that's something that everyone has, like innately? Or do you think there are some people who would never have this conversation? Like, do you think there are some people who would never once think like, oh, Whose fault is this? They're, like, my wife, put it on herself, because there were autoimmune things on her side of the family. And I'm adopted. So of course, we don't have a ton of knowledge. So I get to pretend that there's no way any of this would be from my side of the family, which is ridiculous. But I don't care. It doesn't matter to me. I've never once cared. And I do think you, you are really getting to know me because I said important. And you were like, that's an interesting word. It's an interesting word. Because I don't understand why anybody cares. I really don't I don't know how this would like when I see people online, put so much effort into trying to find out why even the conversations forget, like, whose fault like the conversations about like, well, I need to know what happened. Right? Like, that's fat. That one's like, you know, yes. Oh, my God. Well, they got COVID. And then they got diabetes that had to have been that, okay, you still have diabetes, or maybe my daughter had hand Foot Mouth. Then she got type one. We assume that's what it was. But we weren't like Colombo, and around trying to figure it out, it just all sort of fit, you know, the amount of people I see put a lot of effort into that. Like, I need to know what happened. I don't understand that either.

I think a similar analogy could be. So let's say this, there's there's milk spilled on the carpet. One parent might look at that and say, All right, who spilled the milk? Who did it? You're gonna have to come here and clean it up and fix it. But I want to who How did this happen? How did this get here? And then a different parent might say, Oh, my gosh, there's milk spilled on the rug, carpet, whatever, let's clean it up. Let's move on the we have to hurry up. Let's clean this up, move on. And so I think this is same analogy of their, you know, wondering, is it important to find out how the milk got there? Or is it more important just to clean it up and move forward? And I think that might be from your nature, from your upbringing, from your life and all the automatic thinking, it might be important to some people. And I think it would be hard to make a generalization, but I could generalize it. There are people who want to know how it got there, and people who just want to clean it up.

Do you need to know so that you can ascribe fault so that you have a place to focus your anchor? Because they still don't understand what happens once you know, right? By the way, you know why I love you. I have two words written down on my whiteboard in front of me. And nothing else for this whole conversation. It says move on. Because I thought, well, this conversation when you and I get done hashing it out, we're going to need to tell people, how do you move forward from this? And then you just said it. I was like, This is why I picked Erica.

Well, thank you.

But But seriously, like once I know, okay, let's say I can figure it out. My daughter, I definitely took her to a ball pit at a McDonald's when she was blah, blah, blah. And she bumped into a little kid with a snotty nose that gave her hand foot and mouth. And then six weeks later, she had type one diabetes. I know that now. So So what like what do I do with that? Like, I don't know why I would mine up all that information. It doesn't get me anywhere. It doesn't change anything.

So someone might say it's a more ascribing blame. So you could say, Oh, if only we didn't go to the McDonald's to that ball pit and she didn't get Hanford if only so you kind of living in the past trying to make sense of why things happened. Going back to the blame, blame and shame game that some people really struggle with and it's painful. And working out, as you said is that the emotions that you're trying to work out the anger, the sadness, the confusion, the shock. So what do you do with all of that you can let it out or Are you trying to make sense of it and say, shame on me, we went to the McDonald's and she got sick. If only we hadn't done that she wouldn't have gotten hindfoot mouth and she wouldn't have that type one, you know, that type of,

I get that type of thinking, but but I don't get where they don't add the next part, which is something else just would have happened. Like, it's not it's type one diabetes. It's not a quarter on the ground that you didn't you didn't find the only one like it was coming, you know, right. By the way, I made up the whole McDonald's in the ball pit thing just I just thought of the most disgusting things I can think of in ball pits was right at the top.

I was gonna say I hadn't heard that story

before. Oh, no, no, no, I completely made that up. When you recounted it. I was like, Oh, God, she thinks I'm telling you a story from my actual life. So I don't I don't understand. Like, okay, now I know, let's say it's the kid at the ball pit. I can be mad at that. Or I can blame myself for going. I don't know where that gets us. Like, why? Why does my brain not let me want to be mad like that? I can't even when my wife's a real Ask America, this could happen. I never have a desire to be mad at her. Never. I'm not mad at my kids ever. I'm not. I don't know, like, and I grew up with people who were mad at each other constantly. And I just think I just like I saw enough of it to go, Okay, well, this is not a valuable use of time. I mean, people are going to do what they're going to do, they're going to morph and change and things are gonna happen out of your control. I don't know that being angry about any of it is valuable. Or, and I'm sure I've done things wrong. Like, I mean, I'm more than sure. I mean, I could probably sit down and make a list, right? But if I look back on my life, I think well, I've done a bunch of things wrong. Sure. But my kids are here. Everybody's warm, safe eating. What was it gonna go perfectly? Like was I never gonna make a mistake? Like, that doesn't make sense to me, either. I don't know. All these episodes are just about what I don't understand.

Why think what you just said in the middle of that was somewhere along the line, you learned that holding anger or trying to place blame wasn't helping, right? It's, for some, it might feel like it's serving a function of trying going back to the control piece of trying to make sense of why things happened. And if you're trying to place blame on yourself, or others or other outside forces, it's a continuum, you're trying to figure out how could I have controlled these variables? Could I have controlled these influences environmental stressors, all these things to prevent and protect my child from getting diabetes? And so I think it's a process of letting go of that, which is really painful, that we are in control of everything.

That is it right like that. If there's something about me and how I grew up, what lets me think that I am a piece of dust floating through the universe, that one day just won't exist anymore. And I'm completely okay with that. And everyone else wants her to be one not everyone else. But a lot of people want there to be big reasons for things like that, that I guess I didn't I didn't consider but I'm, I'm okay. Being Meaningless. If that if that makes any sense. Like it's okay with me. Like I even think of like, I you know, if you if you were to say, when people die, this is horrible. I'm using the basic example I can think of when people die think oh, gosh, that sad for the people who knew them. But I've never felt sad about it. Like if a person dies that I don't know, I go, Oh, what a tragedy in their sphere, right? It's meaningless to me. Like, you know, there's statistics how many people die every day? That person was one of those people. If it would have been my mom, then it's horrifying. If it's me, I guess I don't care. But I guess the people around me would know and Okay, good, right. I just don't see why. I can't make sense of why it matters. Because, oh God, am I gonna say something like, meat? I'm gonna say something deep. That's gonna sound stupid. I don't think anything matters. To some degree or another. Like, I think you just do the best you can. And you help people as much as you can. And you garner as much happiness and love out of life as possible, and then ride that as long as you can. And then that's it. Like, well, I don't know. I'm sorry. I don't know how this got here.

Or what we're getting into some deeper topics, I think, perhaps, maybe generalizing out of that is, you know what, how do you find per First in your life, do you have a belief in a higher being? Do you find what is your purpose in life? And perhaps some of that line of thinking, you know, is there? Is there an afterlife? We know all of that, you know, what is my purpose in life, basically? And why am I here? And if you have that, maybe your your mindset is nothing matters, you're going to do the best you can live, love and serve, right? Others, excuse me, then it doesn't matter to you why things happen, or how things happen. You're just going to face them one moment at a time. I

feel like everything's that way, though. Like you're on a step. You can't see the step above you. It doesn't mean it's not there. Right? Because you might get to it at some point. So if you asked me, you almost just did. Do I believe in a higher power? I would say no. Unless there is one. And then I definitely would, but big but for this moment. Do I think if I went up the next step, I'd see. Buddha, God, better Hari Krishna, whatever. I don't think I would. But if I did, I'd be like, Hmm, well, that's really cool. You know, and then, but I don't think it matters because I try to live my life as if they do exist. So it doesn't matter to me if they exist or don't exist, because I'm doing what I would be doing if I believed in them anyway, if that makes sense. But I also don't think I'm smart enough to think that I know. So I mean, I'll be the first one. If I shut my eyes and open them back up. And I'm standing in front of gates, I'll be like, Get out of here. This is nice. Everybody. I didn't think like I would definitely. And then I'd be like, right on like, let me see what's up like in? That'd be it like if I don't say that there's not a god. I say that if you made me choose, if you told me, Scott, you have $5,000 in the whole world? And I know the answer to this question. You have to bet your five grand I'm gonna go I haven't seen any existence of God, I'm gonna bet against it. And then if it was there, I'd say, Oh, wow, I was wrong about that. I don't I don't I'm not angry. If there is one, I think that'd be terrific. You know what I mean? Like, I just I don't see it. So I don't spend time thinking about it. And what's the point of this is that you can live like it's not there. But live like it is there at the same time. So you have the freedom of not being beholden to something like maybe what am I saying you can act right for the sake of acting right? Like, I don't think there's no rules that are making me help people with a podcast, for example, or that. I don't know, make me hold a door for somebody or all the other things that I think I do that I probably don't go noticed outside of my bubble during the day. I don't know. I'm sorry. I didn't expect to talk about this.

Okay, so the what? I think we went we got here by you know, what drives you what is your purpose? And what matters. And in your, your mindset and belief system is that you're, you're doing the best you can you do. You're doing what you can each day, but you don't you're not looking backwards too much. And you're not looking forward too much. either. You're kind of just you're going moment to moment, doing the best you

can and well intended. I don't have I try not to regret things. And I just think you know, have good intentions. Follow them as closely as you can, doesn't always go right. And keep moving. So if I did take Arden somewhere that got her sick, and she got diabetes when she was two, but if I just didn't go there that day, she might not have gotten until she was five. I mean, that's a lot of like assumption. You don't I mean, and so sort of probably why I brought the God thing up, like, I'm not gonna spend time making those assumptions. If they're true, that's fine. But if I get to the end, and somebody pulls out like a dossier, and they're like, Yeah, no kidding here. You did take her to the thing that got her sick and turns out had you not gone there that day. You wouldn't have happened till she was eight years old. I would be like, oh, gosh, well, that sucks. But I don't know what to do about that. You don't I mean, like everything to me, it's about what do you do next? Right. That just seems to be what life is to me.

Right? And so with this fault piece around? Why do parents often find fault in themselves when their child is diagnosed or gets sick or injured? I think connecting to the either the god higher power control piece Who's Who are you in control of your own destiny? Can you protect Your children from everything, and you prevent all harm. I think we can't. And as parents, it's that is what we're learning each day, you know, as our children, we let them out into the world and they fall and, you know, scratch their knee is the first moment, you're like, Oh, I can't protect my child from everything. But you weren't going to, you're not going to sit there and say, Gosh, I shouldn't have let them go to the park. But I think on this grander scale, when maybe we can connect some dots to autoimmune connection, or we can connect some, some dots on larger, you know, some traits or, you know, genetic markers. There's connection, but I think the fault piece is tricky, right? We can say, well, of course, yeah. There is some connection, some genetic markers and lineage through these auto immune issues through our, you know, grandparents and aunts and uncles. But did we control that? Did we create our own, you know, genetic markers? Well, yeah,

cuz you could start getting really deep into bizarre things. Like for instance, I'm not saying I tracked my kids, but I can see where my kids phones are. So last night, I could see Arden moving at a speed that indicated she was in a car on a highway. And she's way at school. She's 14 hours by car away from here. And I did not think oh, God, what if I saw the dot stopped abruptly? And I realized Arden was in a car accident. What would I do? And I thought I would call 911 and then get on a plane. Not I shouldn't have let her go to college. You don't I mean, because the truth is, I might not make it like Eric, I might walk I might leave here when we're done fall on the stairs. And then I'm totally kill me if I thought I was there's no way I'll be able to hold up that so I fall down the stairs. Do you think my 18 year old mom's somewhere? Come on, I shouldn't let him have a family. He should if he would have gotten married and made those babies and you know, bought a place to live and then he wouldn't have stairs to fall down because we were broke. We didn't upstairs anywhere. We lived on one level or like there's that would be a ridiculous thing to do. So I just don't there's no way I would do that. If I'm just gonna come out and say something ridiculous right off. Arden died right now in a car accident. I wouldn't regret anything that happened to her. And I I try to point as much as I can to the first year of the podcast to a woman who came on her name was Lindell Haulover. And she came on because her son who had type one died in college, he got sick. And I think he fell asleep and he just died in his sleep. And his heart. I mean, it was the first year of the podcast like it was a horrible conversation. I have chills thinking about it. Now. I don't remember anybody's name. This woman has a different name. It sticks out to me like this. But during the conversation, she said I don't regret anything. Because he lived for I forget 21 Really amazing years and would I have preferred him to live three times as long? And she said yes, but not if it was that a lot if it was if we were limiting his life. And I thought and that's just sort of how I think about it, like, do the best you can today have good intentions. Hopefully you won't fall down the stairs. And if you do, you can't look backwards, right? You just gotta keep going. Hey guys, just jumping in to remind you that one of our sponsors BetterHelp is offering 10% off your first month of therapy when you use my link better help.com forward slash juicebox that's better. H e l p.com. Forward slash juicebox. Better help is the world's largest therapy service. It is 100% online boasts over 25,000 licensed and experienced therapists and you can talk to them however you want text chat phone or on video. You can actually message your therapist at any time and schedule live sessions when it's convenient for you. Better help.com forward slash juicebox save 10% On your first month. One of the first things I do every morning is take ag one from athletic greens. You could do this as well. You could build a foundation for better health with ag one. Use my link athletic greens.com forward slash juice box to get started today. When you do you'll also unlock an offer to receive a free one year supply of vitamin D and five free travel packs that's on top of your ag one. Come on. He wants supports immunity boosts energy helps recovery and promotes gut health. I take it because I'm afraid that my diet doesn't quite include all the vitamins and nutrients that it should and he one helps me to feel better every day. I tried a handful of other range drinks before coming to AG one. One of them I won't mention the name tasted like what I imagined feet will taste like if you made it into a drink. He one however, goes down nice and easy. And my palate is hard to get along with. So that really is saying something. He one from Athletic Greens contains less than one gram of sugar no GMOs. No nasty chemicals or artificial anything's right now it's time to reclaim your health and arm your immune system with convenient daily nutrition. It's just one scoop and a cup of water every day. That's it, no need for a million different pills or supplements to look out for your health. Of course, to make it easier athletic greens is gonna give you a free one year supply of immune supporting vitamin D, and five free travel packs with your first purchase. All you have to do to get that offer is visit my link athletic greens.com forward slash juice box once again, athletic greens.com forward slash juice box links in the show notes, links at juicebox podcast.com to AG one and all the sponsors.

I imagine that she probably went through a grief process, though, you know, in that to get to arrive at a place to say that. And I think, you know, not looking back and placing blame on ourselves as parents or you know, as caregivers or trying to find fault that that's all part of the grieving process. So maybe you I don't know if you did that a little bit when she was diagnosed when Arden was originally diagnosed. But I know that that is really common for caregivers that I meet with, you know, gosh, what could how could we prevented it? How did we? How did we miss the signs? Or I thought this is our fault? Yeah,

yeah. I thought like, I mean, I'm gonna stay at home dad, right? I thought like, what did I do that put us in this position? And then I thought, well, that's silly. And I didn't think about it anymore. But I get the idea. I do think I had a thought earlier. Where's it at right now I wish I could access it in my head. That being able to see if I can talk myself to it, being able to find the cause and point to it. It does offer relief, I guess. And it's the control piece like like Elise, that wasn't, I didn't do it. It wasn't me. But But then if I were to argue somebody out of that, I'd say well, you pick the guy or the girl that you got married to and made the baby and there was something about your juice and his juice that made a baby, they got diabetes. So turns out if you would have just gone out with the guy from 11th grade instead of the guy from 12th grade, none of this might have happened like we we can we can do that forever. Like it's just it's not valuable. And people get caught in it like, like badly and it ruins years of people's lives. And that's why I brought it up because I watch people do it every day.

Yes, yes. Or they I inherit conversely, I thought I was doing everything right. living healthy eating healthy exercising, you know, keeping my mind this is for maybe the more a lot of people, people with a lot of who I work with the thing I was doing everything right? How did this happen? And so it was still trying to find yes, we're trying to find Yes, I think the relief trying to find reasons, explanations as to how something painful and sudden can happen. We just think human nature, we want to find an explanation for hard things. And part of the pain is most often we can't find clear explanations. And then that forces us to process. Am I in control? Why do bad things happen? And how am I going to face with this quote, bad thing? This hard thing? Yeah.

You're not in control of anything. Like not big picture stuff. Because if you skip if you if, if you date, I don't know if you married this person, but you could have married the next one or the one before you don't know what would have happened when those two people got together. Like, you know, who knows. It's just it's it's all bad. Listen, I know it's a a, an audio medium, but my children are so much more athletic and attractive than I am that there are days that I'm like, they're definitely like the male bands. You know what I mean? Like, there's no way there's no way those are my kids. And if you would have looked at me and my wife and been like, hey, you'll probably give birth to a girl who's looks like a model and a kid who played college baseball and a bit like that's not gonna happen. And then it did, which is crazy. Think of all the famous hot people whose kids are ugly. Sorry. Like it's your See, they tried to control it. Super hot guy and marry super hot girl kid comes out homely. And you go, what else could I have done? Eric is not gonna agree with any of this. But trust me, it's a great example for our conversation. Those people who, who they tried to, they tried and it still didn't work out. You don't I mean, like, I mean, you don't know, when you're 18 years old. And you you come by and you're your girlfriend, you're picking your girlfriend up, and the mom is sitting over in the corner, and she's rubbing her hands going, my hands hurt again, you don't know, that's like I that's an autoimmune disease, get the hell out of here. Don't make a baby with this one. And lately, like, there's, you're not going to know that. And to put that on yourself afterwards. Also, I think of this for all the people who torture themselves about it. Ask them if they would, if they could go back in time and not have the baby. Would they do that? And no one says yes to that. No one ever I asked people constantly, no one ever says yes. Like not not just get rid of the diabetes. Just the person just doesn't exist anymore? And if the answer to that isn't Yes, then I don't know. I don't know what we're talking about that. Because if it's not that bad, then this is just what you got. And here we go. You know,

it makes sense. I think what one of the myths of living in the land of if if only right, if only I had married this person, or if only we hadn't gone to McDonald's, whatever. The Myth of that thinking is that the if only did it it is going to be better than the reality you're facing now. And then that's how we, as you said, torture ourselves of thinking, If only I had gone left instead of right, then this wouldn't have happened. But if only I had gone left, then that could have happened in that could have been worse. Yeah. But we trick ourselves in thinking that it's the alternative is better.

And not only that, but then it sticks you in a position. Like there's no moving along, then, like the amount of people who I've heard tell me, you know, in their 40s and 50s. Oh, I think back to when I was 18. And this is like, I don't know, people. We're not supposed to talk like this. But I think back to when I was 18. And my mom said I was fat. And I think I would kill to look like that now. Like that. That feeling. But it sticks with you the first time it says that your mom says, Oh, are you wearing that? You know, like? Or did you really you think this now you're stuck, right? And then you move forward five years and 10 pounds, you look back and you go, Oh, what was I doing? And then you move forward 20 years and 10 more pounds, you look back you oh my god, I was gonna but in the meantime, you're the one not leaving the space. And you just create these hazy patches of your life, where you're not fully being yourself busy trying to get back to the to step one all the time. Like, I don't know if that makes sense. I see the connection to it to what you just said, of just holding yourself in a spot over and over and over again, instead of getting through it or pass it around, or whatever you have to do to let it go. Because it will follow you right into your grave. And then what do you do if you close your eyes and they don't open back up again, like you all that time is wasted then, and I'm, I'm believing I'm seeing this happen with people around diabetes, type two and type one, just you know, what did I do? What did I eat? What did I say these on? You know, why did I marry this person? Like why did I just gotta let it go? I mean, it's just

Yes. And the the lies that if only I had done this or that then I would be happy or happy or right that that is a distortion a lie that we believe and it's ultimately preventing you from processing the true feelings in those moments of anger, sadness, shock, disbelief, you know, all of those initial grief, emotions post a diagnosis or any other trauma that you're experiencing. And so how do you move on, you know, going back to the, your, your way of your kind of mindset, the milk spilled on the, you know, the, the rod of okay, how do we how do we clean this up? How do we move forward? Well, we can be we can be frustrated, maybe there's going to be a stay in there. Maybe you're going to be sad and that's okay. But the and what we cover that primary emotion with the blame and shame so allowing yourself that space to the Akash I'm so disappointed that this happened I'm so angry. And I do want to find an explanation but I'm ultimately how do I get to a place of peace without having an explanation or without realizing that no one's really at fault.

It's also very doable because when I was very young I I mean I wouldn't be making the same podcast I am now right like so I a different personnel and as luck may have it for this conversation this weekend, I took a small chicken and season that and put it in the oven and had a little liquid in it. And it was almost done cooking Erica when the glass pan that it was an exploded. And I have to tell you that about 25 years ago, the pan would have exploded, and I would have cursed for 20 minutes. Every bad word I could think of I would have cleaned it up while he was cursing. I would have cursed each little piece of the glass. Everything I just looked at I went that's crazy that I pulled the chicken bottle off to the side. My wife like what are you going to do that chicken I'm like, I'm going to check it for glass. I'm still eating it. I sopped up all the water and I cleaned up the oven and I cleaned up the glass and I vacuumed everything up and mopped everything up and checked the chicken. It didn't have any glass on it. I put it on a different pan, not a glass one that I shoved it back in the oven, and then I ate it later. And nothing's different in the end whether I would have yelled or screamed or been upset or thought like because I have can I tell you something? I hate that we own glass cookware. I've hated it for 20 years. I've never said anything about it. I thought it was a misstep. And it took 20 years for me to be right, Erica, but I was right. But it didn't. But there was no reason for me to say it. There was no reason for me to be upset by it. How many chickens I put in that thing? It didn't break. So I was like, Yeah, all right. Fair's fair.

You didn't go around and say, Ah, ha,

no, that's not what I would have said back then I would have been like mother. Chicken why me? I just don't feel that way anymore. Like I just I don't? I don't know why. I mean, I think I outlined it loosely. While we've been talking. But yes, I mean, I grew up poorly. A lot of stuff went wrong. I had very low expectations for anything. And there's actually a part of me that thinks that helps when the chicken blew up. It did feel like it blew up on the way home and I was like, Wow. I was like, Huh, okay, like, my bar is so low. That I was just like, if I still get to eat this chicken this day still okay for me? Like, like, you know, I don't know. I don't know why we think everything's supposed to go right. And that's interesting to me like that feeling that, that no matter what, no matter what we're involved in, or who were involved with, or what the situation is that it's that it's supposed to be. I don't know that I'm supposed to be living like I'm a professional athlete on Instagram. Like, and if I'm not that everything's a mess. And I just don't I've seen it go back to. I've brought this up on here before because it was so like, impactful to me, like one of the very first professional football players whose contract was made public took him from, like, beloved person to hate it in a city that he had to leave. Because people found out he had, he was making $8 million that year. And it just it ruined people. They were like, I can't be around this anymore. Like he doesn't deserve this. Nobody deserves this much money. Like that kind of thing. Somehow along the way. It's turned into something different. We're now like, it's almost like we fetishize people, the more money we make they make the more we like to hear about it. And, and I don't know if people hear that and think, oh, that can be me one day. And that's hopeful. You know, there's that saying about the biggest, the best thing about America and the worst thing about America is that everybody believes the American dream. And I wonder that about like, Forget America for a second like life, like Does everybody have a picture of perfection they think exists, and they just have to find the way to it and then it's theirs. And then so every time every day I wake up, and I haven't ascended. It's because I made a mistake because the path is really there because the truth is the American dream is for whoever works out for it's not it's not every it's not everybody's and you didn't do it right. That's not That's not what it really means. You know, the American dream means that in America I'm putting quotes around. I don't I don't mean to get political. But nothing is supposed to stop you from a Sunday, you're supposed to have a clear path to it. It doesn't mean that the man who I saw today while I was driving down the street, who looked up at every car when yo as it drove by, he's not getting the dream. Okay, that's not happening for him. And I don't know why I don't know what has happened to him, it seemed like he might have been mentally unstable. But that's not the point. The point is, is like, there's no path for him to get to the dream. And I wonder if everybody doesn't just think it's there. They just haven't found it yet. And, and I wonder if that translates back to health? Does everybody think there? If they just did everything right? They'd be 95 years old on the news, smoking cigarettes, talking about how they've lived this long? You don't? I mean,

I think there's, there might be some people who think that I think most most people have hope, even hope for, to for their dreams to come true. And so then what? And then everyone's dreams are different, but I think most people get up everyday because they have some sort of hope and purpose. Do they? Do they all realize their dreams? Know, for all the various factors and variables of life? But I think most people have hope that they might, but and then you said, do they have hope too, that their life will be perfection? And I think what what is perfection look like for each person is different is perfection, your bank account, your status, your your emotional and physical health, you know, whether what is perfection, right? But I think that sense of will free will and freedom to make those choices is one of the you know, blessings of our country. What impedes that then going back to the you know, our general question of, is it up to the control piece? Is it? Is it my own control? Is it and then is it if it is all in my control? That if then if I make a mistake, then it's my fault. Right? I think that's. So if I have this dream, and this hope to get there. But my mindset is that I it's up to me to get there than any mistake along the way. Physical, emotional, mental, or otherwise, is my fault if I'm ultimately in control. Yeah. Does that make sense? No,

it does. It's just a shame that that's not obviously not the truth. That's all like it would be, it would be nice if everybody could believe that they're doing their best. And they'll they'll get up as many steps as they can. And each one is a success. And it doesn't matter if you're the guy who like who cleans the balls in the ball pit, or, you know, at the McDonald's, or if you're, you know, whatever your idea of like making it is like, it doesn't matter, it's the best for you. And that really is important, you know, like just doing the best you can for you. There's no fault there, then, I mean, I think that's what I'm saying earlier is that I don't have any expectations. Like I get up every day, I just do the best I can. I mean, I do have some basic rules, I do try to help people. I tried to I tried to treat people the way that I would like to be treated. I, well, I do treat people the way I would like to be treated. I try not to lie, then I think that's a very important distinction. Because there are times when lying is important. So like, you know, I try not to lie, I don't do it as a knee jerk reaction, like just to make things easy or anything like that. But there are moments when I'm like the nobody benefits from this. It's just going to hurt somebody I'm not going to do I'm not going to say. And that's it. But I mean, I honestly don't have any more rules than that. Just try not to lie and treat people the way you want to be treated. I mean, I would tell you about the podcast, that I never imagined I would do something for a living that would help people and pay my bills, and that I would enjoy. And that's a pretty big trifecta for me. And so I don't sit around every day thinking like, Well, what else can I squeeze out of this? Like, it just doesn't occur to me like that I wanted to reach more people. And I know that if it reached more people, I would probably make more money, you know, and I would probably then be able to do other things. But if it just stayed like this, that would be a lot actually. Like I don't know how to, like why would I think of this as a as a failure, you know, and you know, and it's interesting that financially the way business works, especially here, you see the stock market all the time. Like there's these companies who are like, they're doing fantastic. But they did a projection, they're like we projected 16%, but we only grew 14%. And their stock falls, because they're losers. And you're like, Wait, why? That doesn't make any sense. You know, and I just feels like, everybody has that. Pressure, almost like we've been commingled, like human beings and entities and ideas, we're judging everything on the same level, at this point, instead of just saying, you know, I'm a, I'm a compacted bunch of like, dust. And I'm, somehow have the ability to think a little more than other things on the planet that are made out of dust. And we're just thinking too much sometimes about things that have no answers. I know, that's sound, I think that's sometimes about therapy to like, like, sometimes I'm like, Just try not to care so much. Like it'll be it doesn't matter. You know, like, some things matter. But some things No, that's all

well and good. When the when we're trying to find reasons, or blame or fault, maybe there is, maybe there is blame or fault that should be placed in certain situations. But when we get stuck there, that becomes problematic. So even if we can point to grandma, and great grandpa in the lineage down to how our child now has type one, we have found, we have, we have sort of a loose explanation. And then we can practice grace, you know, to our ourselves and say, You know what, this is okay, I love the partner that I chose to have this child with, or, you know, however you have this child, adopted or otherwise, now we have this child and they have diabetes. And I know why or I don't know why, but I'm just going to practice grace and love on myself. And I'm going to model that for my child. And not pointing any fingers anymore at this point,

the pointing fingers is it's forgiveness for forgiveness sake, without having to say something needs to be forgiven, like, so that's kind of the important part, right? It's just the thing, no matter what may or may not have happened here. I forgive it. Like, with just, that's great, right? That's just like, let's just let it go. And move forward. We'll get stuck here forever. And you know, you'll live your whole life in your kitchen with your mom saying that those pants are too tight. And you can't get past that then. Right? I kept thinking forgiveness, then you said grace. And I thought, Okay, this is right. That's great. You know,

it's hard to do if that hasn't been modeled for you, if your mom or dad or parent figure has not modeled that, it's hard. So that's why you might find yourself as a parent now, not knowing how to do that. Can

you practice on something small? And being serious? Like, could you pick something that you could just say, like, there's something in my life that I'm pissed off about? There really has no, like, I can see this has no impact on anything. And I'm just gonna let it go. Like it's they tell them what's the saying, right? You don't forgive people? For them. You do it for yourself. Yeah. Right. You unburden yourself.

That's right. And that's hard. It's an oftentimes, I think, we think that it's, it's just going to happen, and it's a feeling that's going to come over us and sometimes that happens, but most often, forgiveness is a choice that you are making, and then the feeling times later to forget, I think we get we get stuck in that waiting, well I just gonna wait to like, feel like I want to forgive myself or I feel like I want to forgive him for doing that. But often we have to we have to decide. Okay, and that's hard. That's really hard to do, but it's can be done.

Okay. All right. That's, that's what I'm up against that. All right, this is a good place to stop. I do want to say something at the end, though. For I get to look at you while we're doing this. And you're like, What am I like you think like I do. I know you and I don't let me get to it. You and I don't like you. And I don't think the same. Our process is the same. Like I watch you go into your head when you're talking. It's interesting. Like, I think if I forced you to keep eye contact with me, you wouldn't be as clear. Like you sort of you sort of go away into your head. And you speak out of your heart, if that makes sense or not. Yeah, and I do that too. Like so when I'm talking you see be like look away from you, right? Yeah. And I just realized that today like you do the same thing. That's Really interesting. It's, it's lovely because because I don't I never get the feeling that you are reaching into a bag of tricks and pulling out canned responses. Like you're I, I'm a lot, I talk fast. I say things that don't seem connected to each other right away, and you're actually listening to me. And I can see you keeping mental notes in your head like I can see you go say this when we go to this point when he's done talking. And then like, I'm watching. It's very impressive. I'm just very impressed. Oh, thank you. Thank you, Scott. Oh, people should people should see you for their therapy needs in what California? Hold on. Let me see if I know. California, Washington State. No, no, which one Oregon, Oregon, Utah, Utah, and Florida, Florida right now you can do those virtually? Yes. As far as Erica forsyth.com? Yes, thank you. Do you do it in video? Well, they get to see you like disappear into your head before you talk?

Yes. Well, I mean, maybe they'll be looking for that.

I would love it. I because I believe when I say something to you, and you respond. I don't think she's just saying what I want to hear. I don't think she's just saying what she can thinks about this topic. Like, I feel like we're having a really a real conversation. And I think that's just it's just very important. And it doesn't always happen. I interview people. I mean, you and I are different. We talk a lot, right? And but I interview people who are just there to say something. And they're just waiting for the spot in the conversation where they can get out their thought. And it's not like that with you. It's very nice. Actually.

I appreciate that.

Actually, what am I supposed to say when somebody? Thank you? Oh, you're welcome. I'm trying to be of off to you Oh, you think so? Every day, I'm not sure about that. I'm trying my best. And I think and I guess just to wrap it up for everybody. You know, if you can take it from me, a person who's probably spoken to 1000 people who have diabetes or love somebody with diabetes, it just this part you're stuck in is not valuable. And it's never going to lead anywhere. That you are just spinning in circles. And if it if it takes you to make something up to forgive, or to forgive a thing that you can't even put a face to, just to get past it. I think you'd have you'd have a lot more happiness, and a lot less anxiety and I mean the amount of people that just keep coming on the show that describe themselves as anxious. It's never it feels never ending sometimes. It's really, really interesting. Okay, all right. Well, thank you so much. I appreciate this.

You're welcome. Thank you

a huge thank you to one of today's sponsors better help, you can get 10% off your first month of therapy with my link better help.com forward slash juicebox. That's better. H e lp.com. Forward slash juice box. If you've been thinking about speaking with someone this is a great way to do it on your terms betterhelp.com forward slash juice box. You can get started today and everyday with a G one from Athletic Greens by going to athletic greens.com forward slash juice box Don't forget you're gonna get that free vitamin D and the travel packs with your first order. Athletic greens.com forward slash juice box and check out Erica at Erica forsythe.com Thank you so much for listening. I'll be back very soon with another episode of The Juicebox Podcast

Hello friends, and welcome to episode 913 of the Juicebox Podcast Erica Forsythe is back and today she and I are going to speak about the 54321 grounding technique. I know you've never heard of it before, and you're like, sounds like counseling, Scott. But there's little more to it. While you're listening today, please remember that nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise, always consult a physician before making any changes to your healthcare plan, or becoming bold with insulin. At the end of this, if you find yourself saying I loved Erica, I want more you could make an appointment with her at Erica foresight.com. Erica serves a number of states right now. Virtually virtually that's the word right. California, Oregon, Utah and Florida. And she's in California if you'd like to meet her in person, Erica forsyth.com. How would you like super comfy sheets soft and luxurious? And how would you like to pay 35% less for them than other people Bay. You can do that at cozy earth.com When you use the offer code juice box at checkout. That's right, the word juice box at checkout saves you 35% This episode of The Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by the company where my daughter gets her Dex comment on the pod supplies from and you can get that and more from us med us med.com forward slash juice box that's how you get started. You go to the link or you call them at 888-721-1514 us med let me just give you a taste a tease right. US med carries everything from insulin pumps and diabetes testing supplies. The latest CGM is from freestyle, and Dexcom. They also have Omnipod, five Omnipod dash control IQ. That's the tandem stuff. They have so much at us. med.com forward slash Juicebox Podcast is also sponsored today, by better help. Now if you can't get to Erica, but you still want to visit a therapist, check out my link better help.com forward slash juice box, you can save 10% On your first month of therapy when you go to that link. Hierarchy. Welcome back.

Hey, thank you.

I have you here today. Because well, let me tell you why. You've mentioned something to me before about coping grounding techniques for anxiety. I remember you saying it to me. And you just we glossed over very briefly. And very recently, a famous person who I've been following my whole life had what they described as a breakdown. And that they went to get help. And that one of the things at the therapy that that they sought out that was incredibly helpful is something called the 54321 coping technique. You call it that Do you have a word or name for it?

I can't grounding technique.

Okay. I want to just, I don't imagine I'm going to get to talk very much in this, but I'd like you to explain what it is. Talk about the steps of it, and then maybe give me some examples of how to use it in real life.

Okay. So the grounding technique, there can be you can utilize all five of your senses. Sometimes I also teach my clients just the three to one technique, which I will explain. So grounding, what that actually means is bringing your mind and body and your senses to the present moment. This Do you want me to review it? What it is first? Or why? Why might be helpful?

I think I think why? How do you get into that situation? Because what it makes me feel like is that you become a little disconnected from reality. Like maybe you get lost in a in a feeling or a thought or a problem, right? And it's almost like, in my head, it feels like it feels like the visually like if you've ever seen in a movie, somebody's getting sucked out of a dream. Like they're having a dream and then all of a sudden, they they suck them back to where they are. It's almost like to me it's that feeling of I'm away in this dream in this other place and I can't get back to me. Yes. Is that okay? Yes,

yes. So I would I would encourage someone to use this technique when they are feeling like people describe it as they're spiraling right there. mind their thoughts are racing, they feel like they can't control the experience they're having whether it's physiologically like your heart is racing, you're maybe even feeling like you're spinning a little bit. And your thoughts are just, you're perseverating on something, usually, it's about anticipatory fear, something that you're worried about in the future. But it can also be something that's happening currently. Or it could be something that happened in the past, and you feel like you cannot get yourself out of that moment and added the feeling. And it feels really scary and overwhelming, that often can also, this experience can be connected to having a panic attack, where you, which are very, it's very scary, and other people describe it as feeling like they might, it's as if they're dying, right, that their their heart is racing, they can't catch their breath. The the grounding technique can be difficult to utilize once you're experiencing a full panic attack. So this would be something that it can't be done, but it's really, really challenging. So this is kind of when you're in the space of your, you know that your mind is just going going going going and your heart is racing, and you can't feel like you can't make it stop. So what you want to do, so the grounding technique, again, you can call with your ball, five senses, or three is bringing yourself to the present moment. And sometimes even before, using the grounding technique, it's helpful to kind of check in with your breathing. So two different ways to do that one is just placing your hand on your heart. And you're just kind of getting in touch with your body and you might feel your heart racing, you might feel it slowing down, you're just kind of letting your body know that you're here like you were with your body. Because sometimes people describe when they're feeling panicky is that's the you know, the out of body experience. So you're connecting your hand to your heart and connecting with your body. Another way and this kind of goes with the 54321 technique is holding up one hand and you're tracing the other hand, you're tracing one finger on the other hand, up and down the finger, your fingers, it's might be hard to do without seeing it,

I used to, I used to do this when I was a kid, I started my wrist and go around my thumb and then around my pointer finger and then just keep going around the edge of your hand like that.

Thank you Yes, and then you're inhaling as your as your pointer finger is going up one finger, your thumb, and then you're exhaling, going down. I encourage people to try these breathing and you kind of go through up and down each finger inhaling as slow as you can, and then exhaling as your pointer finger goes up and down each digit to just kind of slow your mind and body down before you do the grounding exercise. There's really no right or wrong way to do it. But sometimes people will tell me, and I know it can be really challenging to be in this headspace of, of panic and say, I'm going to do my grounding technique. It's hard to jump into that. So the breathing exercises kind of helped slow everything down. Okay. Okay. So the 54321. The first one is, look, you're looking in your realm, wherever you are, you could be at the grocery store, and having this experience, you could be driving in your car, you could be at your office, you could be at your child's school, wherever you are, you're looking around in your physical space and identifying five things that you can see. Now what this experience does, is it It forces you to stop thinking about whatever you're thinking, because you're then having to look and identify, Okay, I see this book, I see the layout, I see the desk, and you kind of want to it takes time, but you kind of want it as slow as possible. You don't want to be like okay, see, boom, boom, boom, and blah, blah, blah, next. But again, that's it. So kind of look around and taking it okay, see five things. The next one, and oftentimes it gets confusing of like, which sense do I do? 54321? It doesn't really matter.

Yeah, just an hour. I want to get back to what you said. It doesn't really matter what census but but in the, in the idea of like, five things that I see around me. It's, it's not like I see five pieces of paper and I'm done. But do I say it out loud? Do I see I see a pack of paper. I see a camera like, am I saying it out loud? Or am I saying it in my head? Or does that not matter?

Um, I think it probably depends on your comfort level. If you're alone, it could be helpful to probably say it out loud and then define it like okay, I see the tissue box and it's rectangle and there's orange and yellow and blue print on it. You could say it out loud if you're in a public place and you prefer not to it's okay. Okay, okay. Yeah. But yeah, try as I said, you know, going doubt around the objects slowly identifying them if you can, describing them out loud or in your head, right? So, just you're just slow. You're bringing your mind and body and now first, your vision to what's in front of you. Okay, the next one is for things you can touch. And that's not just like, you know, again, I see my smooth laptop, you're gonna feel it. And you're gonna think to yourself, Okay, this is kind of rough. I can feel my fingertips going back and forth over it. And then the next thing, okay, oh, this is really smooth. The mousepad is smooth, and it's pink and purple, you know, whatever. The next one, three things you can hear. This is quieting, you know, you're you're using all of your senses to quiet your mind and quiet your body. And so you're listening. And this may take some time. It could be you hear your heartbeat. It could be I can hear myself

breathing. I can hear. You can hear silence even if you get quiet enough like that. You can hear the room, which is silence. I don't know if that makes sense to people. I wear a lot of headphones. So I think of it that way. But I can hear nothing. If that makes sense. Yes, right. Stillness. Yeah. Okay. All right. So like that five things that I see. I see my I see my microphone. It's on a stand. It's got a long cable on it, like take a minute to describe it. If I already decided to touch that microphone. It's metal on one side and cold and smooth. On the other side. There's a foam cover the foam covers rough and it's porous and to actually touch while I'm thinking three things. Three things that I can hear is an idea of how to get quiet and then really listen. So you're just calming yourself down really right you're grounding yourself. I mean I know that's what we're talking about. But that's it's really fascinating before we get to the next thing where does this come from? Like where did this idea originate? US med my friends that's what we're here to talk about the number one distributor for FreeStyle Libre systems. The number one specialty distributor for Omni pod dash number one fastest growing tandem distributor, the number one rated distributor index comm customer satisfaction surveys. What did I just say? Number one will you heard me? Over 1 million diabetes customers have been served by us med since 1996. It's where my daughter gets her supplies they offer you better service and better care. How do they do that by always giving you 90 days worth of supplies and fast and free shipping zip zip you understand quack quack quack like carry everything from insulin pumps diabetes testing supplies to like that FreeStyle Libre three and the Dexcom G six and seven G seven? That sounds like new stuff. Yeah, us med has it with an A plus rating with the Better Business Bureau. How can you go wrong? They accept Medicare nationwide. And a broad swath like a ton like 800 private insurers one of the must be yours. Us med.com forward slash juicebox Hit the link sign up getting going. Don't like the internet. You can call them 888-721-1514 I had a lot of energy for that, didn't I? Okay, I'm feeling good about that. Hey guys, just jumping in to remind you that one of our sponsors better help is offering 10% off your first month of therapy when you use my link better help.com forward slash juicebox. That's better. H e l p.com. Forward slash juicebox. Better help is the world's largest therapy service. It is 100% online boasts over 25,000 licensed and experienced therapists and you can talk to them however you want text chat phone or on video. You can actually message your therapist at any time and schedule live sessions when it's convenient for you. Better help.com forward slash juicebox save 10% On your first month. Where did this idea originate?

Do you know of grounding technique I imagine it's connected to you know an Eastern philosophy of you know mindfulness being present in the moment I couldn't tell you exactly who created it or where it originated but I imagine it's you know getting to that place of the practicing the art of mindfulness stillness being present with your body. Have you discovered who created it

here the National Institute of Health says was first developed by Lowen one one the Madonna of psychotherapist apparently only get one name 1958 between 1958 1979 Oh, one was one of the first body psycho therapists. Okay.

Okay, well, thank you. We give him give low end credit him or her? Yes, thank you.

I'm usually the one that just calls. Okay? Okay, so number two, okay.

So then two things you can smell. And again, you know, taking your time and this is, it could be your own, you know, something that's in the air, your body, your perfume, your, you know, whatever, whatever is feeling that maybe you don't even have candles or if you if you don't have anything that you can smell, you could light a candle at you know, do if you have the oils, something if

it just shows your shirt, right? You probably smell your own hair like anything.

Yes, yes. Anything. And then one thing you can taste, which is this is tricky. And this is why I go over the three to one. You know, sometimes people get caught up and like, well, what if I don't have like a strawberry in front of me, but it could be also just tasting and being mindful of what is the flavor in your mouth. It could be leftover breakfast flavor, it could be your coffee, you know, that you've had? It doesn't have to be something that you are actually tasting in the moment. But just kind of going back to being mindful. Like what did I have this morning might be your toothpaste, right or your mouthwash that you're tasting in your mouth?

I don't need to lick my desk when I get up. That's correct. Right. Right. Right. And by the way, how proud is everyone of me that I didn't say that you could smell what the rock is cooking. Because that did pop into my head. I've never watched wrestling in my life, and it still came to me. So so the taste thing am I actually looking, but my first thought is to put something in my mouth and taste it.

If that's if you had happened to have something, or maybe you have your coffee or your tea, or you have food in front of you or a snack, but it doesn't necessarily have to be that it can be something like there's a residual taste in your mouth typically,

how long? Do you think the 54321 process takes a person? If they go through it mindfully this or not? Uh, this?

That's a tough? Yeah, I don't I think it can be, it probably depends on as you as you practice, it will probably take longer over time. I mean, you could probably do it in as quick as like, a minute or two. But I don't know if that that might not be as effective. So maybe if you could stretch it out even over five minutes, 10 minutes, I think would be a challenge, but could be done.

Okay. So be seated standing doesn't matter. Do you think?

So these are good questions. I think a lot of times people associate grounding with you know, going outside barefoot and grounding your feet on the grass on the ground and really connecting your body to the earth. You can do that in that process. But I also really want to encourage people that you don't have to be in a special position or environment or place to practice this. So whatever I would say whatever makes you feel most comfortable and focused on the exercise, but if it just means you're at you're sitting in your car at the stoplight, you can do it quickly. Right. And oftentimes, the clients will get it's confusing to think, okay, 54321 What sense am I supposed to say am I supposed to touch five things, I supposed to see three things. And so sometimes it just to remember, three to one, which is if you if you maybe if you're at a stoplight, and you only have a few minutes, a minute, three things that you can see two things, two things that you can touch. And one thing that you can hear that eliminates the smell and that tastes but sometimes that isn't as easy to do. And again, really, I don't find maybe in the literature, it is important to do it in that order. But I think really the the emphasis is grounding yourself to the present moment and interrupting the Thought Cycle and then calming your body physiologically as well through the process.

So the first time I heard anything about this was from you. When I was explaining leaving my son for the first time in Atlanta, and that it occurred to me that I should call my brother and talk to somebody and you said, Oh, that you are grounding yourself. And I was like, Oh, I didn't know I was doing that. But it does make sense like, and then it's distracting. The conversation is distracting then even though like we talked about what was happening, even saying it out loud makes you realize like, oh, it's not as bad as I thought it was when it was when it started to happen. I don't if that makes sense or not like almost talking it out loud is helpful.

Yes, and I think you were also do doing that while you were driving. So you had to be you had to be kind of mindful in the moment as well of driving, bringing you were in the present moment. And grounding yourself can look like yes, you were you were talking to him and talk me through what happened. And then also thinking about what was next.

Yeah. I have to say I also find the work of a guy named John Sarno around back pain to be really valuable. And one of the things that I've always taken away from his books that I read years ago the that the idea of that you can tell yourself like, I'm not injured, like yeah, my back hurts, but I'm not injured. I don't have a physical injury didn't fall. I wasn't hit by a car like something's not structurally wrong with me. Yes, I'm feeling pain right now. But I'm not hurt. I'm okay. My back's okay. Like, I used to tell myself that, and it was actually incredibly valuable. So it mean, to the point where I would say that, that the stress could kind of exasperate the, the pain, like so you have the pain, and then you get stiff? And then you start worrying, like, am I going to be able to go up for work tomorrow, and like, you sort of spiral, I guess, same thing we're talking about. And then I would just tell myself, and I would say it out loud, if I, if I had the opportunity to I'm not hurt, my back is not injured. This is okay. And it would actually help. So,

yes, I mean, that's really effective, you know, with people with chronic pain, right to there's the pain that you experience. And then there's the thought process that goes alongside it that can contribute to even more pain, emotionally, or sometimes even physically. And that's, that's a great exercise of there is the pain, you're not like ignoring it, diminishing it. But the thought process as a result of that you're separating the two, you're not connecting them.

Is there a world where I would ground? prophylactically? I'm sorry? Is that a word people know? It I'm sorry. Just for context, it means like something I would do ahead of time so that the thing never happens, like, can I ground myself before I become, like, upset.

So like, free, like a pretty meditation,

right to do something. We're just talking about meditating at

that point. So front to front load. I mean, I think anything you do that you practice, even when it's not in the crisis moment, it's going to be easier to implement in that crisis moment, or in those stages of panic. So if your mind and body is accustomed to grounding yourself, which could look like meditation, which could look like various, you know, different practices. If you know how to do that, instinctively, it'll just be easier to do. And, you know, post, right, right, when the moment when you feel like you really need it. Yeah. When is that beneficial? i Yeah, absolutely.

I guess anything that works for you is beneficial, but like, it just occurred to me like, I wonder if it like is becoming disconnected? A thing that happens, like at the snap of a finger? Or is it something that maybe happens throughout the day? And you don't recognize it until you know, you're you've slipped over the slope at that point?

That's a That's a great question. I think part of the initial process that when you're becoming a is having that awareness that you are cycling, or spiraling, or per separating, and you're experiencing the anxious symptoms, because oftentimes, you might not even realize you're doing it until you are at that place of having the panic attack or feeling like you cannot function, whether it's momentarily or seasonally. And so, one of the first steps, you know, is to increase that self awareness of like, Oh, I'm doing that thing where I'm, I keep saying I'm using what if, you know, worst case scenario thinking? This is kind of going back to some of the you know, that the cognitive distortions or the lies or the worst case scenario thinking, becoming aware that you're doing that is is really the first step, and then being kind to yourself in that moment. You say, Oh, gosh, I'm doing I'm doing that thing again. Gosh, this is because I'm feeling really nervous about this upcoming event, right? I'm feeling really nervous about letting my child go to school. Okay, I am. So you're being kind of kind to yourself, being aware and being kind to yourself, helps kind of lead you to the end to the next step of whether it's the you know, the deep breathing exercises are the grounding technique.

And do you like from your perspective, obviously, this is something I should I should be asking you. This is something you use with people who see you.

Yes, yeah, yeah. So we've talked about this all the time

do people report back with with success? Normally?

Yes. And I think it can be successful. But the common issue is that it does take practice, right? So it, it's hard to go from the state of panic to Oh, yeah, that's right. I'm feeling panicky, I'm gonna go do my grounding technique. It's really hard, right? And so it does take that practice. And that's why we kind of we break it down into what are the thoughts that you're thinking? What are Are there different distortions that you're believing, being kind to yourself in that moment, replacing those with truths, all the while, integrating the coping skill. So it's hard to go from the A to Z, without some of the steps in between. And then it just, it takes practice.

I'm looking around online while you're talking. And because it just keeps striking me that anybody who knows about like electrical work, right, you have to ground the socket, you have to like, and you grounded, you're grounded into the earth. So that if there's not an electrician, but so if there's a surge, instead of zapping you, it were the house, it literally goes down, there's a metal spike somewhere outside of your house, it's driven in the ground and your whole electrical system is is attached to it so that, you know it can ground we're not talking about anything different, really, we need to help people to go outside, walk barefoot lie on the ground. I even see here submerse yourself in water. And then there's equipment to ground yourself with, which I would have no idea about. But my son brought this up to me like last year, he's like, you know, you can get like, like a mat to sleep on that literally is, is grounded the outdoors. And I was like, why would that be? And I can't wrap my head around it. But maybe there's something to it. You know?

That is such a great analogy. Yes. Thank you. That is good.

I like it when you thank me. It makes me feel it makes me feel evolved. Like it makes me feel like oh, Erica Foster, thank me, I must have been really thoughtful just then.

Well, it was good. That was a good,

thank you. I appreciate it also makes me feel like you're way healthier than I am when you do that. Always like she's, she's either so good at this or just way more together than I am. By the way, I want people to know when they hear this first run. This is coming out during I think it's National Mental Health Awareness month in May. It is it is I cannot take credit for doing this on purpose. That is not why this happened. So I saw something in my social media a few weeks ago. And I mean, for clarity. I mean, he's very public about I guess I'd be happy to say it. The movie director Kevin Smith had a mental health crisis. And he put out a 30 minute video talking about what he did for himself. And I watched it. And he was talking about this grounding technique, which made me think oh, wow, Erica brought this up to me. And, and I thought wouldn't that be nice to walk through it to? To share it with other people? So that's how we got here? Um,

yes. I think one of the beautiful things about it is that it can be done without anybody knowing like a lot of my a lot of students that I work with you maybe have test taking anxiety or, and even even caregivers as well. You can do it without anybody knowing it doesn't have to be this big. You know? Yeah, exercise that is embarrassing, or causes a lot of, you know, public or personal distress in public. And so you can do it. No one even knows you're doing it. And that's the beautiful thing, kind of

like opening up your phone to look at your CGM. Like that's right, right. Just Oh, I'm doing your thing. No one knows but me. And that's yeah, that is really wonderful. So practicing it so so not not indifferent, indifferent, not unlike almost anything else in life. Like, don't just reach for this information in the moment where you're actually having a panic attack. For example, like do it today. Do it now just practice so you, you know the steps and maybe it will maybe you can even like because I mean, I'm doing it while you're talking. You can feel like that. I guess centering is the way to go or balance or calm even like it made me realize that when I because I sit in like 1000 different positions while we're talking like I lay back like my microphone moves around really easily. Sometimes I'll sit back I'll sit up, I'll sit forward. But I found myself sitting up straight and and planting my feet on the ground. And I'll tell you, I never considered it before but there's an alleviation of something. When I'm when my body knows I'm in a stable position. I've just I've done it like four times while you're talking. It's happened every time I can pointing exactly what it is. But I feel stable in this position with my feet planted firmly. It's very interesting.

That is, that is a great point. Thank you for reminding me that, yes, it could be helpful. If you're able, if you are seated to have your feet on the ground, kind of everything at right angles, if you can buy your knees, and then your your hips, your shoulders above your hips, because that is your kind of in alignment. And that can help you focus if your bodies in that posture, it can also you're bringing mindfulness to your body through the guidance. The grounding technique. Yeah, it doesn't have to be. But that is another helpful tip.

An arc is the person who slept through high school, I feel weird saying this out loud. But I feel like what I'm what I'm experiencing. I'm just trying to tell you, I didn't do well in science. But I feel like what I'm experiencing is my body is not making a bunch of micro adjustments to keep me balanced. And so it's almost like my body's able to relax. Because I'm in this position. It feels like the it feels like the chair has me chairs under me, it has me it's behind me the way my weight is there. And even when I think to shift, I can't because my feet are firm. But if you stand up, I don't know if we think about this a lot. But you're constantly. Like if you've ever watched like a robot try to balance like when they're teaching robots to walk, and you can. Okay, so you can hear well, you can hear the servos in the legs and the articulations where it's constantly like it's constantly balancing itself, like forever balancing itself. And I just realized that when I sit up and I put my feet on the floor like this, my body doesn't feel like it's, it's working to hold me up. And it's relaxing. So anyway, I mean, it's grounded, because my feet are on the ground. But I think more I think more like it's like an alleviation of like, processes that you don't know are happening constantly. So one less thing your body's doing. It's kind of how it feels. But again, slept right through psychology as a senior. So I did I did a final but did not did not listen, Have I ever told you that story? No, congratulations. Oh, thank you, my, my senior year, we had a half year psychology class. And it came right after lunch. I was always very sleepy during this class. So I would I would sleep through the class every time. The guy was boring. And it's not that I didn't like the topic. I thought the topic was great, but he just didn't deliver it well. Anyway, halfway through the year, it's time to make the final because only half your class. We come in, he hands out the final. I fall asleep. Like let it take I just I looked at the finals. Like I put my head down like went to sleep. My friend woke me up. And he goes, I remember his words. He looked at me incredulously and said Don't you think you should at least take the final I thought as a valid point. And I sat up and slapped myself in the face a little bit and took the test. The next day we came in for the last day of class. This the dejected man at the front of the of the classroom holding the finals graded in his hands. He was so like, it'd be used distraught. And later I realized he was distraught because I think he thought his existence was a waste of time and unnecessary because I got the best grade on the final. Oh, he was so pissed. And he goes, How is this possible? And I said I probably learned while I'm sleeping. Anyway, I found it. I love psychology. I just didn't like the way he spoke about it. But I'm fascinated by it. Otherwise, I appreciate you doing this. Is there anything we're leaving out? Or any?

Yeah, yes. I think I was just thinking back when you asked you know how to clients report is as effective. One thing that can be challenging is it's easier if you're hearing someone tell you to lead you through the steps. And obviously it can be done independently. And so if you're finding when you're wanting to try this or practice this, either writing it down on a sticky note, you know, 54321 with the different senses. You could also record I'm sure I know, there are probably you know on various apps or even you could YouTube, Google YouTube, you know someone walking you through this. You could record yourself which can be really powerful. Walking yourself through the steps. So if you're finding that it's either challenging or doesn't feel as effective if you're working through the steps internally by yourself if you need to hear someone walk you through that. That's just another I just wanted to suggest that as another tip. Yeah.

I don't know firsthand, but I would also bring it Up to the I've heard so many people talk favorably about Transcendental Meditation. And TM is I think they offer like a tiered system to pay for, like to learn how to do it. And I think it's pretty reasonable. If that's ever something that I'm that you are interested in if they charge you by your household income. So if you want to learn how to do TM, I were find another form of meditation that just seems like such a good idea, honestly, like just the idea of sitting quietly. In general. Yes, yes. There's so much going on. Erica, like, I mean, there's a moment today, when I mean, we work from home, you know, my wife's downstairs, she's working, she hasn't been feeling well. You know, Arden's two weeks from coming home from school, we're traveling soon to pick her up. And my son still away, he's by himself, I tried to work, I had an advertiser, like, got a little funky, and I had to work it out. And like, you know, like, there's everything going on, and I come downstairs, and my wife starts telling me something about an experience she had at work today that was really genuinely interested in her as she's talking, the dog has to go outside. And now I'm like, hold on, hold on, wait, I'm pausing her and I let the dog out. And then I get outside and my neighbor's waving to me. He's got a question about something. And then I'm talking to him. And before I know what, it's 20 minutes later, and I'm back inside. And I'm like, Kelly, what were you saying? She didn't even remember, she was talking to me at this point. And all I could think was, there's too much happening. Like, there's just there's too much happening. And I gotta go back upstairs. And I have to edit three of these podcasts today. And I have four phone calls. And I have to set up this thing. And Eric and I are going to record and, and I can understand when people just like, like spiral out like, it's, it's like my life's going well. And it's still a lot, and I don't know what you're supposed to do when things aren't going well. And all these things are still happening. And these are just little things like, these are just momentary things that I find myself bumping into, while I'm going through my day, there are other big ideas going on here. There's, I have a whiteboard next to me is like 50 things written on it that I have to do, and it's already time to pay like my taxes again, and like, you know, like, it's just like, it's, it's a lot, you know, and I don't know, it just it feels like it would be valuable to have a couple of moments of quiet. And whether you're, you know, having an issue or just trying to stay present, I guess is the right word. It's so funny when you say it. When you say present, grounded, when you say grace, when you say things like that. I think these are so like obvious ideas. Like, I don't know why we don't talk about the more, you know,

they're in there. So they're hard to do for ourselves and internally, like we can offer grace to our children, we can help them oftentimes, you know, we can help them calm down. We can help lead them to say no, it's okay. You can move from school and you're in your child's you know, running around, they've all this homework and their blood sugar's high. And it's, it's easier to maybe help someone externally. Yeah, to kind of pause and take one thing at a time as opposed to in our own body and mind. And so we I, we often talk about, you know, trying to think, how am I going to ground How am I going to calm myself the way I would my child, or my best friend or my partner,

I'm going to try this. And because this may sound may sound opposite of what I just said, but I'm having a struggle, like a personal struggle right now. And that is, I'm bored. I don't have enough to do. Like, I have too much to do. But my kids aren't here. Like, I I'm not, I'm, I am not good when I'm not helping people. Like it feels very hot. My Existence feels hollow right now. Like, I feel like I'm getting up and doing the thing I'm supposed to do. And, um, you know, working on losing weight, which is going well and, you know, like thank you. And, and and so everything's moving the way I want it to the podcast is very popular, it's doing terrific. I can't, you know, all that. So there's nothing going wrong wrong. And yet, I keep thinking I'm bored. And when I really stopped and thought about it, like I'm not involved with the kids as much, and I didn't realize how much I would miss that and how much of my I mean, I knew how much of my life it was. But I didn't understand that there'd be a vacuum like that like and there's a vacuum I did not expect and anyway, I just I need to do something because I don't know like i right Now I feel like I'm floating through my life at the moment, if that makes sense. So, anyway,

maybe a bit a bit untethered from where you found your, your purpose. Yeah, and you derived a lot of value and purpose from that. And so with them gone, maybe there's a little bit of untethering. And that can maybe lead to various amount, you know, think thoughts and feelings, and which are all valid and true. So you get to feel that and in that process, maybe going back to the, you know, grounding yourself and letting yourself feel those feelings of boredom and maybe sadness or loss, I don't know. But that's what grounding can do is, like, also create space for the feelings that might be suppressed, because you're going going, going from one thing to the next, you're getting all your checks off the whiteboard, and then the feeling that is there. Once you're grounded and present, it allows for it to come out.

I don't know if this sounds silly, but I woke up the other day, and I had a text from Arden. And she just wanted this special soap, like a bar of soap. And I like ordered that soap and had it shipped to her and sent her the tracking information isn't the best 20 minutes of my week. And I just was so silly. Like I was like, Oh, am I not having conscious thoughts? Like, oh, I'm valuable again. Like it's not like that. It's that I think I actually enjoyed this. Like, like, like, hearing their thoughts and their their things that are going right and things that are going wrong and like having conversation back and forth about it all that stuff is like it's just gone now. But you know, and and then I'm also thinking they don't have somebody to talk about it with. Like my son especially he's living in a city by himself right now. And I feel very badly about that. Like I want him to finish this part and go somewhere where there's more people and I don't know I just anyway, I'm going to try this is my point.

Yeah, good dad.

Sets sappy stuff about myself. Anyway All right, one day Erica. We're gonna we're gonna we're gonna go over you One day One day find out what makes you tick sit these conversations on your on your throne of good thoughts and no. I want to hear it all figured out. I wonder what a mess you are one day I can't be the only one telling stories about sitting around feeling hollow

What do I appreciate the vulnerability

Thank you very much I appreciate you doing this Hey, how terrific is Erica find her at Erica forsyth.com Also, while you're looking for things us med.com forward slash juice box for call 888-721-1514 Get your free benefits check and get started with us med. Of course, better help.com forward slash juice box. That's the link where you save 10% off your first month of therapy with better health. Let me throw one more in here for you. 35% off cozy earth.com your entire purchase by using juice box at checkout and what the hell athletic greens.com forward slash juice box get five free travel packs and a year supply of vitamin D with your first order. Will you use my link thank you so much for listening. I'll be back very soon with another episode of The Juicebox Podcast. If you can't wait that long, head over to the private Facebook group Juicebox Podcast type one diabetes become a member join the 40,000 other members and talk about diabetes with them doesn't matter if you have type one type two type, whatever, Lada you know what I mean? diabetes urine

Hello friends, welcome to episode 948 of the Juicebox Podcast Erica Forsythe is here today, now we're going to talk about rebellion. And we're not talking about Luke Skywalker and his friends, we're talking about that very human reaction that we all have from time to time. While you're listening, please remember that nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise, always consult a physician before making any changes to your health care plan. Or becoming bold with insulin. You can visit Eric at Eric forsyth.com. Eric is sees patients virtually from Oregon, Utah, Florida and California and she sees patients in person in California. Are you looking to save 35% off of your companies, your towels your sheets, your joggers, cozy earth.com use the offer code juice box at checkout. Want to start every morning with a delicious sip of ag one you can it's what I do, you can do it to drink a G one.com. Get our free one year supply of vitamin D and five free travel packs with your first order at mydlink. If you want to hear more episodes with Erica go to juicebox podcast.com. up to the top, click on mental wellness, you'll see a whole list this episode of The Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by us med go to us med.com forward slash juice box or call 888-721-1514 To get your free benefits check today. Get your diabetes supplies the same way that Arden does from us med us med.com forward slash juice box or call 888-721-1514 The podcast is also sponsored today, by the Omni pod five Omni pod.com forward slash juice box, you're looking for the Omni pod Vive, that's where you're gonna find it, you want the Omni pod dash, it's there to Omni pod.com forward slash juice box. You can use the same insulin pump as Arden, the Omni pod, there are links to us med Omni pod and all the sponsors in the show notes of the audio app you're listening in right now. And at juicebox podcast.com. Or you can just type them into a browser when you use my links. You're supporting the show. And okay, so All right, we are recording. Erica, we are back together again. Hello, hi to go through my list of things that I call Erica. In my notes in my notes app, I know people are gonna be like, Oh my god, Scott, those write some things down. I have like a long list of things that I want to talk to you about. So every time I see you come up on the calendar, you send me a text and you're like, What are we gonna talk about? And then I go look at the list. And I read through and I wait something, wait for somebody to grab me. So what grabbed me this time was rebellion as a human decision. So that is a thing that one day I just opened up my notes app, look for the word Erica and wrote it down. Because I think I'm just I don't know, I'm baffled by it on some level. My first conscious thought about it was as a young person, I was watching Jerry Springer. And there was like this 15 year old girl going through this thing. And it's a thing that happens to people all the time. And I thought like, at what point do you not see the last episode and go, Oh, I'll avoid this. Right? Like, why can't we avoid things that we know? Or are obviously bad for us? And then that thought trance kind of transferred in my head into? Why? You know, I mean, like when you're a young person, it is clear to you no one cares about you as much as your parents, even people with crappy parents, like these are the people right? And yet, there's a rebellion for that. And there's a rebellion at work and people don't like to be told what to do. And I'm, I'm one of those people to some degree, like if you tell me what to do, I'm like, Yeah, I'll probably be doing something different than that. Way. There's no reason for that. You see it in diabetes. Some people are easily they go to their doctor, their doctor tells them something and they fall in lockstep. You know, I mean, like she almost to the to their detriment. And there are other people who as soon as it said to them, they're like, Well, I'm not being told what to do. So is it I mean, it happens in in society as well, right? Like and I'm not even saying that I want everybody to do the same thing or I wish everybody acted right like I don't I don't Don't feel like that. I'm just interested about the human psychology of rebellion. And I was wondering what you had to say about it?

I think there are yes, as you said, all sorts of reasons why, and maybe some of them are conscious, some of them are unconscious why a person chooses to rebel. And I think it depends on the, you know, the age and stage that we're talking about, I think they're just to list maybe a few of the reasons. You don't really care how your decision affects others. And that might look like rebellion to the on the outside, right. But your, your instinct is, I'm going to do it this way or my way. And you don't really care if what that looks like or you don't want to conform to society's expectations. I think that might be perceived from the outside as someone being selfish or immature. And then the person who's making that choice might feel like well, I'm just not going to conform to these traditional ways. I think rebellion could also maybe look like depression, sometimes, like there might be a fear of doing something that your parents or your professionals might be advising you to do. And for whatever reason, whether it is depression or another, you know, mental health challenge, I think there's often fear involved or taking risk. And that also might look like you're rebelling, when you just actually can't feel or you feel like you can't do what you're being asked to do. It's yeah,

it's just so interesting that, that it seems to be like step one, for most people in every, like, you're presented with something and right away, it's no, like, No, I'm not doing that. You can't make me do that. Like but but there and I get that if you've been if you've been through a situation where somebody is controlled you or something, I would obviously see that but like, with a young person, like like, an eight year old, who's just their whole life, and like what you say one, you say blue, I say red, that's it like right, like, and, and I get the idea, like online, it talks about this here says this theory, what is the urge to rebel describes the unpleasant feeling that emerges when people experience a threat to their free behavior. Like so is that like innate? Like that?

Some Yeah, some people feel like it is an innate experience. And some people might describe it more as curiosity, right? Like you're as a child, you, when you're kind of that early, elementary years, or even in preschool years, you know, they why why not? Why do I have to do this? And that can feel like just just, you know, wash your hands after you use the bathroom? Why?

Learning? Do you think when they're younger?

I think it's learning and there's this curiosity of wanting to understand. Is it A, do they internalize it as a threat to their freedom? I'm not sure they're there yet. As a as a young child. Yeah, I'd say partially learning and just curious, wanting to understand why do I have to do these things that are expected of me?

Yeah. And I guess also, like, setting, like, you're testing boundaries, too. But what's the value of testing a boundary? Do you see what I mean by that? Like, like, I mean, I, looking back may have pushed my parents. So like, so you want to see like, how far until this breaks? But why? Why do I care? And people do that in personal relationships, too. I guess he has, like a personal treat of a spouse or, you know, somebody they're dating, almost, like, poorly, to see like, Do you really love me? Like, how much of this will you take? And that I even understand maybe better than, like, with a little kid like, I guess a little kids where it throws me off? Like, where does that come from before you've even seen the world? You know,

I think the you're exposed to new things and the way our brain is, I think just the way a brain develops is maybe some kids. I mean, somebody might say it's birth order to firstborns often may just do what they're told. Because of either attachment or because they want to, you know, make their parents proud. They want to abide by all the rules you might see children who are middle or later born. and maybe more resistant and want to, you know, quote, be more independent. But actually, it's not necessarily true independence quite yet. But that's what we often say when our children are like strong willed and doing what they want. And they say, Oh, you're really independent. But it actually really, that isn't true independence quite yet.

Do you believe in that the birth order thing?

I think I mean, I think it can play out quite frequently to be true with those stereotypes. I don't think it's I don't think it's a set in stone. prognosis of how you act in life, but I think it does. It does play out pretty frequently that way. Okay.

I always thought of that as the level of energy the parent has as more and more like, you're like, you have one kid here, like up there s. Oh, my God, like, Don't fall, don't touch this don't get dirty. Like, you know, by the time you have a second kid and they drop a pacifier in the floor, you're licking it off to give it back to them, right? Like the first time it goes through the first kid, you drop it on the floor, and you're like, Well, we have to soak that in bleach and then hit it. Yeah, boil it? Yeah, well, it was some radium and then we'll boil it, bury it in the ground for 1000 years and bring it back up and see if the kid can use it. And literally, by the second kid, you're just saying, Hey, guy, yeah. So I'll get the dirt off in my mouth, and then just give it to you with my spit on it. And then by the time you get to the third or the fourth kid, you're just like, I don't care. Like like, just, just, I mean, try not to die. But I mean, even if you do I got five kids. You know? And I always thought of it that way. And then I thought of the response back from the kid. Because you'll hear I mean, you must hear in therapy all the time, right? Like, people's experiences with their parents have to change to buy where they are in the pecking order. I would think of age. And then they're, I mean, this is a little off topic a little but be honest, like people have favorite kids, right? Do you know I don't obviously, ah, but But it must happen. Right?

I think sometimes I hear families describe children as maybe, you know, easier, or this one is our strong willed one, or this one is our more patient one. And so I don't necessarily hear parents say this is my favorite. But sometimes adjectives that are used to describe might reflect their experience of their child, which may or may be true.

If I turn my head to this whiteboard that I use to keep the podcast semi coordinated. I will read the words. Arden is my favorite child written by Arden three days after she got home from college. And I've had both my kids stand in front of me go seriously one of us you like one of us better, right? And I'm like, No, but they want to know, they really want that answer. And I've seen in my wife's family, it's a running joke. Because, well, for reasons maybe some my wife's grandmother was not a healthy person in a number of different ways. And she would pull the kids aside when they were doing favorable things and get very close to them and tell them you're my favorite. But then you'd fall out of favor, and she'd go to the next one and tell them you're my favorite. And they actually, like they joke about it. But I don't think they're joking. I think they wonder which one of them's the best. Like she set up a race between them. Almost on purpose, like see who can be grandma's favorite. I don't know what that's got to do with testing boundaries or being rebellious. But we got to that.

But did it did it work? Did it? You know, get positive results out of their behaviors? I don't know.

I don't Yeah, I don't either. She was she was a drunk. I don't think she was keeping notes. Okay, but So, okay, like digging back into this again, I'm at work, my boss tells me to do something. And that first visceral feeling inside of me is you can't tell me what to do. What the hell is that from?

Gosh, I I would want to explore, you know, childhood, parent, parent child dynamics, I would want to understand, you know, how did you? What is your sense of autonomy and agency? Is it a control? Do you feel like you don't want to be controlled, and by and not feel that it's triggering something that made maybe you were a victim of, you know, really harsh things as a child. And so that could be triggering as an adult to when someone says you're going to do this, whether you like it or not. And so maybe you're wanting to fight back, internally. And so you're saying to yourself, I'm not going to do that you can't tell me what to do. I'm going to do it this way. And so you're you're If he feels easier in the moment, to have that narrative play out and choose what you want to do, but knowing that there might be some other consequences, but I would imagine that that it's, it's a result of some kind of learned behavior as a way to cope as maybe, whatever happened as a child, that could be painful.

I mean, it's just it is really, it's fascinating. It's and there are some people who are like pleasers, right? You can't ask them enough, they'd be happy to do it to throw themselves off a bridge if you told them. And, you know, like, and that's got to be the same. The same sort of thing in reverse, right? Because, you know, you just said, you just use the phrase, you're gonna do it, whether you want to or not, I have to tell you, I know, that's been said to me before, as as a child, like I know, and I thought, what a terrible thing to say to a kid. And then I thought, but I mean, I am a reasonable adult, I work hard. I take care of myself, I'm reasonably mentally stable. Like, do you don't mean like, it didn't work? Right. And I was like, a rebellious person. As a young child, I always assumed I was being rebellious. I guess, you know, like, I'm adopted. And I never felt, I don't know the best way to say this. I think like, just keeping it kind of clinical is the best way. I think my IQ is about 40 points higher than the people who, who adopted me. So nothing that they thought of is, like an answer to a question never made sense to me. And then I would say, Well, what about this? Or can we try that? And then that didn't make sense to them. And now we're stuck because I feel like I'm doing the right thing. And they feel like they're doing the right thing, but they're paying the bills. So it's, you're gonna do this, whether you want to or not. And, you know, I mean, to some short degree, I told you that story about my dad kind of like, kicking me to the ground one time, I think that was that, like, he was just, I think he was outmatched, and he didn't, he couldn't get me to stop saying what I was saying. So he was going to try to stop me that way. And all that did was make me more resilient and defiant. 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What is the motivation? What's the underlying emotion? That and thinking that's driving that behavior? Could it be I mean thinking about just the diabetes and you know, either preteens teens, or any any age really not wanting to follow you know, the instructions of your doctor or your parents to manage your diabetes. And then people will say, Oh, my child's rebelling and doesn't want to manage their their diabetes the way they need to. So often. Is that is that because of their age and stage and they're being teenagers and rebelling? Or is it more anger. And that's the way they feel like they can control a situation where they feel like they're out of control. And so they don't want to have to do to Pre-Bolus because they're angry at the diabetes, but then it looks like rebellion. But underneath that is sadness, anger, frustration, feeling out of control. Yeah. So understanding I think, at face value, we look at behavior and say, Oh, that kids or that adults, just being rebellious and being kind of a jerk, or being really selfish and immature. But really, there's always, typically something underneath that that's driving the behavior.

So the path is, you know, a kid's first word is probably going to be no, right? Tell a kid not take off a seatbelt, take it off. It's my expectation is it's the way you handled as an adult, you have that child, that probably dictates how they experience those rebellious moments, at all stages of their life up into their adulthood, like so you have an opportunity to meet that with loving acceptance, you know what I mean? Like and saying, Hey, I realized you don't want to put that on. But we were because it's makes you safe in the car, we're, you know, or something like that. Or we exercise because of this, or we eat this way because of that. And so you can't, it's feels to me, like what you're telling me is that when it's when it's happening, you don't quell the rebellion. Like that's not the positive way out of this. It's just going to create stronger and stronger and stronger rebellions as you get older. Does that make sense?

But yes, potentially. But I know that there are moments when you just you need to get from point A to point B. So using a seatbelt example, I just put the seatbelt on, right? Like you just Yeah, you don't always have time to say, Well, I understand you might be feeling frustrated, and you want to make your own choices as a young person. You know, it's interesting. Realistically, it's hard to check in with the emotion. But you can you can always do that later, too. I think there's we, you know, as parents, myself included, we often forget that we can do repair work at any time. So we can say, Okay, you're putting a seatbelt on right now, because it's the law and I'm telling you to and we're going to this thing, and then later have a conversation no matter what age to say, Tell me about that. Like that time when you didn't want to put your seatbelt on like helped me, you know, what, what, how can we help this process next time?

Okay, if I'm gonna say this to you, but go deeper on that helped me more. So I'm 17 years old, and I'm doing something that just seems shady. But the truth is, is that I'm just probably rebelling and trying to find some control of my life that I don't have and that you think is homicide reversal. But around diabetes, I don't like that word. You think you can work out of that?

i Yes, I would hope so be it will take it also matters. What is your current relationship like with your child? I mean, I think if you were, it was a highly conflictual, combative, non compassionate, non empathetic relationship, it'd be hard to start right in at that moment. But that can be built over time, even if you are starting as you're noticing your team become more rebellious and make choices that you feel like are risky and unsafe, which is also, again, part of their adolescence and what they're going to do naturally. So I think it's finding, in that moment, understanding and validating, I understand this is you wanting to, you know, explore and take risks and see what you're comfortable with? How can we find a middle ground? If it's the, the diabetes example? I think, going into the emotion when they are not wanting to change their do a site change, or use Pre-Bolus? Because that's a frequent topic. What So tell me, what is that about? Like, what is it? Is it fear? Is it sadness? Is it embarrassment, oftentimes, it's just, you know, the teen wanting to be like their, their peers, they don't want to have to pause, they don't want to have to think about it. So gosh, that must be really frustrating in those moments when you just want to keep going and keep going with your friends and keep eating and keep doing the next thing you don't want to do that your life to be interfered with in that moment. And so it looks like you're you're wanting to rebel, but no, you're you don't want to rebel. You want to take care of yourself. Yeah,

I want to I'm gonna turn this all right on to diabetes in a minute. But I know I've said this, I think in the past to you, but when we were teenagers, we dated the Catholic school girls, because they were more fun. But they were more fun because they were being repressed more like that. Yes, we have talked about Yeah, right. Like, you know, you say the same thing to a girl in public school who had a lot of autonomy over her life, and she'd be like, Get away from me. And like you don't know, like, alright, okay. But then you go find somebody who's being restrained somehow. And they have a desire to just do whatever the opposite of that is. And, you know, what else did you see? Oh, but I noticed girls with long hair cut their hair short, when they graduated from high school, girls to short hair, or their hair long, people were smoking who you knew didn't like smoking. Like they weren't interested in it. They didn't like it, but there they were, they were like, I'm gonna smoke cigarettes. I'm gonna date boys. I'm not supposed to. I'm gonna like, seriously, like, always the worst boys, like, like, we joke about it growing up. And you guys will say to each other, like, just be meaner, and they'll want to go out with you. Like, and I know that's not real. But it feels real. Because they're because their parents are probably like, look, meet a nice guy or meet a nice girl. And they're like, Well, I'm gonna go do the opposite. I have like, purposefully counter programmed things I've said to my kids over the years, like, I'm like, if I say that, it's definitely gonna go the other way. So, you know, but but then it leads me into this thought this thing I think about all the time, when we were taking coal to college for the first time, we were in some like parental seminar. And somebody raises their hand and just says, like, I don't want my kid to have access to alcohol. And the woman at the front of the room was like, what? It's so and she's like, we are adults. We can't stop that. Which obviously was like the legal answer for the school about how they stay out of it's like, Hey, kids are 18 if they want to break the law, they can it's not up to you, we don't have to tell you, they're doing it etc. And then the conversation moved on, and she's like, but don't worry. She's like our research says it's only like 5050 And like, like half of the kids will never drink while they're here. And half of them will and because I'm not a drinker, I thought oh, okay, well my kids probably won't drink then. And that kind of worked out like hold doesn't enjoy drinking. I don't think that he didn't try but he was like I'm right. I don't like this. But he also didn't have a ton to rebel against. And so but summit, but the kids that I'm thinking of who looked like they were really had the screws turned on him by their parents, like you could kind of tell they were the ones that went the wild as to college. And so but what are you doing that for to prove it to yourself to prove it to someone else? Is it because the feeling is just that free feeling feels good? You don't I mean, I don't know that I think yes, this is what I wonder.

I think it's so those may be the those types of people that you were just talking about there. I think they're trying to show like okay, I going into college and now it's my turn and my time to be independent, I can make all these decisions that my parents have said no to, and they've, you know, all I'm gonna go live my life. And really, they think that they're being independent. But they're, they're actually still dependent on there. They're trying to make their self deficient, their definition, their personal conduct, their value on doing the opposite of what other people want. So they're still, they're still dependent

on they're just being controlled by a different God at that point. Right? Yeah. Yeah. So instead of your mommy telling you what to do. Now, drinking culture is telling you what to do. Or I'm dating a guy I don't even like because my mom doesn't like him or girl, Billy, etc. Like like that? That really does. Okay, that makes sense to me. So you're never alright. Are you telling me we're never really free? But there's ways to feel free?

Oh, my gosh, by no, no, I think I think the, the, I think the mentality of someone going to college and saying, I'm gonna make all these choices that I wasn't allowed to make, or I was told I couldn't. And I would have all these consequences. If I did. Now I have the freedom to go do what I want to do. You're you're still relying or depending on doing the opposite of what other people want, which still is controlling you. But that's just like the next stage. So maybe the people who are going to college who aren't making those choices, as rebellion, but they're free, like let's say, you know, coal, like you were sharing you he didn't enter into college with this negative or kind of controlled parenting lifestyle that you had, right? So he felt like I can, I'll try it. But it's not I don't really care. Either way. I'll just see if I like it or not. Yeah, it wasn't because Dad told me not to, or he told me, whatever, go go for it. You probably modeled a very neutral position.

If I told you the things I told my kid before I went to college, I said, I said, Listen, there's only a couple of things in this life you can't do. And he's like, okay, and I was like, they're like the, I said, they're the unfuckable things. And he goes, Why don't like the things that once you lock them up, you can. He was like, alright, and I said, don't kill somebody. Don't do it with a car, don't do it with your hands. He can't get out of that. As like, don't get a lady pregnant. You can't get out of that. And I was like, that's pretty much it. As in everything else, was talking and an attorney, I'm sure we could turn around. I was like, I was like those two things, like and I said, Look, forget those two things. You don't do something you can't, you can't apologize for or reverse or fix or anything like that. I'm like things that are are just, and I said it again, I'm like, they're unpredictable. And I didn't mean that as like, obviously, that seems like a bad pun, but I wasn't saying it to him like that at the time. Like I really was just like, there are just some things you can't you can't go back in time for. And I was like, those are the things you want to avoid. And I said, you know, be careful driving your car. And you know, don't. That's the kind of stuff man like there's I said, somebody at that school is going to like you guys are all going to come in and a couple of his kids aren't going to leave. Like they're, they're going to die there was like one or two statistically aren't making it out. And it's going to be some stupid story about them falling off a balcony or getting hit by a car crossing the street. I'm like, that's the thing. You don't want to get hit by the car. You don't want to be the car hitting them. I was like those things I said, because you'll never even if it's an accident, you're never going to forget that you took someone's life. Like I was like, that's the thing. You can't, you can't get back from like, you just can't get back or it's the same thing of like, I hate to say but like if you have a child die. I mean, go to therapy, do whatever you're going to do. I don't know how you're getting out of that. You know what I mean? Like ketamine, maybe? Or mushrooms. I don't know what you're doing. But I don't know how you're gonna forget that. You know what I mean? So like, just, you need to avoid those things that are going to do that. And he, you know, he took me seriously and, and he left I told my daughter the same thing. I was like, I'm like, You have a couple lectures. I'm like, You're a girl. I was like, you know, I hate to say it like that. It was like but you gotta be careful. You know, and inside of six months, she's like that I was walking down the street and like three homeless guys were really aggressively yelling at me. And I was like, okay, and I thought, Oh, wow, I never thought about that once when Cole went to school, because Coca Cola could have turned around and like, took care of him. So you know what I mean? And or, I don't know, even if he could know me, like, I have that feeling in my head of like, maybe you could fight his way out of a problem. You know, I'm not saying Arden wouldn't fight actually Arden told me later, she's like, I think me and my one roommate, she goes, I think we could take down one guy together. Just like we appear to have that kind of anger. And I was like, alright, but just that that whole feeling of, I don't know, but like, Did I run the risk of my son going like, Well, I'm gonna do the exact opposite of what that guy just said. I did, but I thought I had him set up well enough that that wouldn't be the response. But you know, if I was a bad parent for 18 years, and on his way out the door, I went, don't get anyone pregnant, he probably would have you mean, like, he probably would have been not careful with his dating choices. So how does all of this I think it's obvious that I brought this up, because I've interviewed about 1000 people. And I'm either talking to a parent whose child is rebelling, or a parent who is worried that they're going to do something that causes a rebellion, or I've talked to a teenager who says, you know, you know, some kids go off to college and drink their face off, I went off to college and stopped giving myself insulin. Like that was their collegiate rebellion, right. And then they either are lucky enough to see the error of their ways and go back, or some of them end up on here, 40 years old, talking about, I can't see out of my left eye and like, blah, blah, blah. And so it's a big concern around diabetes, because I think the picture I tried, and you helped me pain is that this is going to happen no matter what, it's a human condition. Yes. And how do we keep it from impacting, like our long term health? Like that, to me is the real question once your kid has diabetes, or even once you do, like, I mean, honestly, if I, if I just develop diabetes today, I've told you enough stories, like I might rebel against that, like, I don't think I would right now. But who knows where I would point that at? I'm probably still mad about all that stuff. So I mean, the other day in traffic, someone did try to hit me. And my daughter was like, hey, hold all that Fillion? Could you like, okay, she's like, we don't, you don't live there anymore. And I was like, this guy I know he's messing with. And then she's like, she's 50. And I was like, Yeah, I'm like, but not to get too far down. And I said to her, I'm like, you, you can't mess with people. You don't know what they've been through. Like, like, like, I always tell my kids, I'm like, You can't mess with somebody who's willing to go farther than you. Because once you're in it, like Erica, once it's happening, and you're standing on the side of the road, one of us gonna kill the other one. And like, and one of us willing to do it, and you don't know who they are. And they never look like that person in the moment. And I have to tell you, that somewhere deep down inside of me, I might be that guy. Like, we get out and we start going, I might not know when to stop at some point. And I don't look like that person. And so that's how I teach my kids. I'm like, you don't know who it's going to be who you're going to unleash something from, you know what I mean? So anyway, again, not about rebellion, but probably at the same time. Yes, about rebellion. Okay, so. So from your perspective, if a parent came to you and said, My concern here is that when this rebellious nature comes, they're going to turn it on their diabetes, what would you say to them?

Yeah, or unless it's, if it already has started,

right, either,

I think yeah, I think if I'm speaking with the parent, again, I would go back to the What is your relationship like with your child, what are your How are you building trust? How are you building communicate connection, what is your communication style like understanding is it kind of mean you are the parents so it is going to be top down in terms of you know, boundary setting rules discipline, but in the parent child diabetes relationship, it has to be special and it has to be safe and sacred. And I think the rebel you know, the the fear of parent have a fear of your child rebelling, using diabetes. It's, it's always, most likely something that's under and what how do you feel I'd want I'd say okay, parent, check in with your child, ask them How are you feeling about diabetes? What is it? What How was your day like today with diabetes? What are your if you could write a letter, or if you could talk to diabetes, what would it be and oftentimes, the teens are going And to be angry at their parents about why are you telling me to Pre-Bolus? Really, you're angry, they're angry at the, like the fact that they even have to Sure Pre-Bolus. And I know it's obvious, but I think in the moment after day after day after day of trying to manage it, we forget, we forget that the chronic illness is going to always be connected to some sort of emotion, whether it's kind of flippant, like, Ah, it's fine. It's kind of on the backburner. We're doing fine to a site change day and your your child is dreading it all day long. And maybe they've had a bad day in their ears, they're irritable, they've gotten to a fight with their teacher or their friends, because really, in the back of their mind, like I have to change my pump. Today, I have changed my CGM. And we think as parents or caregivers, that's like such a small thing. It takes five minutes. Yeah. But it can be sitting there in the back of their mind for the until maybe you change it. And three days later, they're already anticipating the next thing. So these smaller things that obviously can add up. So sorry, going to back to what can you tell the parent who's concerned about the rebellion that is either creeping up or already happening would be to, you know, set the diabetes aside as much as you can connect emotionally with your child. And if you don't know how to do that, you know, get get help, and how to do that. And check in with them there. And if they are resistant to talking, that's, that's okay, too. And, you know, giving them the time and space sorry,

no, no, the time and space thing is I keep I don't want to lose my thought, which is, I imagine people listening would find it odd to hear me say, but there are moments where if Arden's having like a higher blood sugar, I look at the whole day, and the whole week, and I say this isn't worth it right now. Like I'd rather her blood sugar be 180 for a while, then for her to see me come into her room or onto her face time being like, Hey, I'm here to remind you that you're not doing the thing you're supposed to be doing. Because that's what it feels like no matter how nicely you do it. That's where the texts are like, I know, I got it. Like, that's what that means. It just means I don't want to think about this right now. And it's unfair, because it's, you know, one of the few things that if you decide not to think about it, I mean, honestly, it's, I don't know if it's minute for minute, but you are taken back in seconds off your life with this decision you're making, but we all do that, right? Like, like somebody's gonna make a decision. It's Friday, somebody's gonna make a decision tonight to have two big scotches and go away in their head, and they're probably going to lose 10 minutes off the back end of their life. It's a trade they've decided to make, right? And so if we're talking about freedom, and that freedom is the reason the the idea that freedom could be taken, is the reason you rebel. I do. I believe that. And so if you start attaching that directly to the diabetes, it's going to go the wrong way. Like it just is like because then that's going to be their self soothing is going to be not taking care of themselves. Erica smile because I use the I think I use the therapy word just like this idiots actually listening. Right, so they're gonna make the rebellion become Oh, I see. So the rebellion becomes their self soothing, which sends them down the path which makes you push back harder, which only strengthens it's more and that's why you haven't talked to your mom nicely since you were 1910. That took me 45 minutes to take me 45 minutes. 39 I'm getting better. Okay. Okay, all right. That all makes sense.

So the self I mean, I yeah, I think the self soothing or that's your, your coping, right? Like you feel like, in the moment, I don't want to take my insulin and jacked Bolus, if it's conscious sometimes, you know, we all forget sometimes. But if you're saying I'm out, I don't want to do this. I'm I'm don't want to face all of the emotion I have connected to this. So I'm going to cope in the moment by choosing to ignore it. By choosing not to do what I know I'm supposed to do, because it feels it feels it feels easier in the moment, it feels better, I feel more free. I feel like I have more control. And, and we're not always thinking about obviously the future implications just, it's hard to

and then it'll become a pattern. And then you will really be in trouble. Like I saw one ad blood sugar for two hours isn't going to kill you. But if you make one at your norm because you've just like put up that wall and now there's no conversation to be had about it. And then eventually I hate to tell you, your kid's gonna get old and they're gonna leave and then wherever they They are is where they're going to be when they get out. And then now you're just blindly hoping that you know one of those things you've heard on the podcast so many times, like I met somebody and I wanted to be healthier, I decided I wanted to have a baby or something like that, unless one of those things happens, you'll just keep going. And the years and the months go by very, very quickly, you won't, you won't realize it, it will happen so fast. And your body, of course, on the physiological side, adjusts to the higher blood sugar, so you don't notice it anymore as much. And there's just nothing pushing you towards, towards helping yourself at that point. And you do feel like you're helping yourself. Because you mom, you can't tell me what to do. Oh, wow. Are you being serious? Are we just really early on? In humanity? Like, this can't be like the level of did only mean, like, we're not that far away from cavemen is what I'm saying.

You mean? How evolved? Are we? Yeah,

not that far. Right. Don't you think?

Well, I think, Gosh, we've been given, you know, freedom to make choices, right? As since we were born, and to are we are we far off from us? How far off? Are we from just saying, you know, screw it, I'm gonna do what I want. I think when that pattern, when that becomes a pattern, then you obviously have, you've lost that space to make that show like, Oh, I'm making the choice to do what I want, right? Because it's just become habit. Whereas initially, you're, you're maybe consciously making more of a choice, I'd like I'm gonna do this other thing, because that's what I want to do. And then it just becomes habit. But when, when you can pause and look what's underneath that it's often even more emotion, such as shame, or blame. And so thinking about the teen, or, or the parent or the or the adult living with type one. You have maybe habitually just said, I, you know, I'm gonna figure this out tomorrow, or I just keep forgetting. You feel don't feel great underneath that.

Yeah, I mean, this might seem like a right turn to people. But we're 400 years away from the beginning of like, the American frontier period, right? Where you would have like, traded your daughter for a couple of goats at some point, right? I'm not kidding. Like, that's a couple of 100 years ago, where are we still in the early 1900s, like late 1800s, early 1900s, you could just have a dispute with somebody and just shoot them. And everybody would just go well, yeah, he deserved it. And that was like the end of it. Like, so. We're not that far removed from that. And now we're trying to have all these big thoughts. And some of us I mean, I mean, honestly, I feel like I'm, I'm a fairly common sense person, I have a reasonable level of intelligence. And we just spent 39 minutes talking about something and my brain went, Oh, yeah, I see it now. But I don't know that that means that 10 minutes from now, I can actually do this in my life. Like on the fly while I'm living, it's not just going to happen, right? Like, I'm gonna make this small, incremental step that I hopefully passed on to my kid, he's gonna make a small incremental step that he'll pass on to his kid. And 400 years from now, we won't be shooting each other in the streets anymore. Like, you know, commonplace. And so that's what I'm saying. Like, it's our how this is gonna sound so like crunchy, I'm sorry, like, the length of our time commensurate to the length of history. Like, it's just, we're just, we really are a blip. And we're just moving things slowly, like very slowly. But in this moment in time, we're all stuck with emotions and thoughts and ideas that we about understand about 25%. And yet we're trying everyone's trying to do the right thing. But we're not like we're it almost feels like we're still going against our wiring. Does that make sense?

Like going against our wiring in terms of making the best decision in

terms of your America, let me just be honest. I pulled out of the Walgreens parking lot the other day. And we were making a right turn into a red light. Like none of us were going anywhere. And a car was coming from my left. I did not cut him off. I didn't pull out quickly. He had plenty of time. He was speeding towards the red light. Then when I pulled out in front of him, he sped up. It was a it was a few like, right, right. And then the part of me that grew up outside of Philadelphia with his dad yelling at him was like, Yo, what are you doing? And like now I'm looking at him in my rearview mirror. Like if I had I have to get out the car and kill you. I guess this is where my life ends. Like suddenly this has become like important. And I know it's not right. I know it's not important. I'm not really mad. But there's something that lights up inside of me. So he comes Cook, like, crashing up to the rear of my car very close. And I am now yelling at him through my rear view mirror. And it's not like, Hey, what are you doing? It's like, I will kill you. And like, like, and like and my daughter is now with me. I am not that person. Generally speaking, she's got her hand on my hand on hand. She's like, Hey, it's okay. It felt like I was the Hulk. And she was Scarlett Johansson. And she was like, she was like, It's okay big guy. Like, like, and I'm like, I'm like, No, I'm sorry, I have to leave you and your brother and your mom, because I have to go kill this guy in the street now for this affront, right. And obviously, I get past that pretty quickly. And I'm like, Alright, I'm okay. Thank you. And we keep we keep moving up. And he is now gesturing to us. And it was not flattering gestures. He wasn't saying I love you with like the handbag or anything like that. And she's like, just ignore him. And I was I just ignored him, I was fine. She said, actually just make a left here. Like, let's let him go. And I'll go home. And I'm like, and we'll go home a different way. And I was like, you know, great idea. I get over into the left lane. I'm okay, I'm done. He drives by gives us the finger, I pull right back out behind him. And my, my daughter's like, what are we doing now. And I was like, I'm like, we're just going to intimidate him at this red light for a little bit. So he has to wonder if we're gonna get out of the car and hit him with a bat. So he has to live in that space for two minutes before the light turns green. And we go are several ways. I'm gonna, I'm gonna and and she goes, that's really what you're doing. And I'm like, yeah. And then I was like, oh my god, that is really what I'm doing. Like, I'm sitting behind him hoping that he is worried that I'm going to hurt him. And then the light turned green, I made a left and he went straight. And it was over. And I thought, yeah, like 150 years ago, I definitely would have shot you in the street. 100% I would have shot him if it was at 95. So you sign your wagon? Yeah. Oh, for just like, I don't know, for certain I don't feel like I can take a life. But I put myself back in 150 years, I put myself in different situations. And I think maybe, you know, like, so we're not that far away from all this. And then we're having these big conversations. And it's no wonder that everybody feels like, Oh, I'm anxious. And I don't know what to do about it. Or like, like, we're just not, we're not there yet. Like, I don't know, one other way to put that, like, we got more like, if this was a crock pot, like we got like eight more hours, you know what I mean?

So that's good.

Are our potatoes are not soft yet, Erica. Anyway, so my point around all that is, is that while people are trying to live that a better life in this time period, and they feel like they're being met with so many, you know, blockades and roadblocks that they that their brains don't feel capable of getting around. While that's happening to everyone. And some of us are trying to live with children who have type one or other, you know, important issues to be dealt with, or our type on ourselves. And we are trying to make better decisions. When you know, our better angels are telling us one thing and the way our brain works is like, like flick pool monkey, basically, you know, like it's

Yeah, and I think sometimes the rebellion even though even actively while you're doing it, like just even if you're a car example, you're doing it then maybe there's a part of you like, why am I like you, you kind of looked sounded like you kind of went in and out of this. Like, yeah, that's what I'm doing. Why am I doing this? This is crazy. But then I'm still but I still want to do it.

Yeah. Not a desire of mine. Yeah. And I grew up like that. Like, yeah, I grew up like I remember once I was on a back street with my father. I was maybe 15 or 16. He was driving. And no, I was learning to drive. I was 16. I was driving his car. And he was next to me. And we were driving home on a back street. And a guy flew up on us and went right around us and took off. And I had not been driving very long. And my dad demanded that I catch that man's car. He was like, catch him. And I was like, what? And he's like, catch him get in front of him and stop him. And I did that. And then my dad got out of the car, walked over to his car, got him to roll his window down a little bit, leaned in, spoke to him for a minute, came back, got in the car and said he'll never do that again. And I know my dad felt like he was policing the neighborhood he lived in. I know he felt like that and to this day. I believe in that. Like if someone doesn't do it who's going to like that idea? Still stuck there. it stuck with me. And meanwhile, everything about the scenario was very scary. And not something I wanted to do it in any way, shape or form. And yesterday, the same thing, like I know, it's the same exact thing. I didn't think of it till just now when we were talking. But by the way, this is why everyone should probably go to therapy. But but I didn't realize that until we were talking about like, that person had done something wrong. And it's my feeling that it's almost my job to make sure that they don't do it again, which almost doesn't make you know what oddly makes a lot of sense and no sense all at the same time. Right. Right. So

you want to make sure yeah, it's just your anger and rage is justified because you're trying to right, the wrong or, you know, reflect to him how he made a mistake. Yeah. And meanwhile,

I've done things in traffic as an example, where I'm like, oh, like, that was a mistake. I turned somewhere I shouldn't have or something like that. I immediately am like, Oh, I'm so sorry. Like, I'm almost like, I was in a car going, Oh, my God, it's my fault. I'm sorry. Like it does, obviously me, you know, like, but on that other end of it, like he was speeding towards a bunch of people stopping at a red light. I got in front of him. And it lit something up in him. He did not want to be behind someone else. And then it suddenly felt personal after that. Yeah. When obviously it's not. Anyway, fascinating. Was I rebelling against something? I don't know. To think about that little

more rebelling against maybe what you weren't, you knew what was right and wrong. I don't know. I do have a stroke. It felt right to you at the moment. But

yeah, but I mean, I joked a little earlier. But like there is that feeling like that in the pursuit of what's right. It's okay, if I have to die in the street for it, which is silly. You know what I mean? And the only thing that stops me like Arden told me later she goes, now that I'm in the south, I know. I'm supposed to tell you all that she's in Chicago, but she's going this college in the South. She goes, when I first got down there, I thought, Oh my God, these people really don't drive well. And it was in. She's like, it was upsetting. And she goes, but I've let it all go. And I said why she goes, I don't think they know. And she was be I think they all have a gun. And I was I was like, okay, she goes, so you know, I don't want to get shot. So I don't care. And I was like, wow, that's a good argument for everybody having a hand. Conquer write down. She's like, I don't care what you do over there. Anyway, Erica, this is a big problem, right? For people with diabetes and their kids.

It is a challenge for sure. And I think understanding part of it is normal, no matter how fabulous and connected. You are with your teen or your teen is with you. Part of it's going to be natural and normal. And to allow those moments to happen. As much I know, it is so challenging. But then also, trying to find those inroads in those moments that it is it is more than the behavior that you're seeing on the outside which you are, which looks like rebellion. And finding those moments and inroads to sit and talk and reflect and connect Anymote. And however it might, it might be 30 seconds. I think also, we have these expectations. Sometimes we're gonna sit and have this long, you know, dialogue, maybe it's a quick walk, it's a quick drive. But validating your teen and their emotions around diabetes will go very far. And I know a lot of you guys do that. And it's still not enough and it is challenging. But stick to keep at it.

I appreciate you doing this this topics been on my list for a while because I think I just wanted to say to people don't let your monkey brains ruin your health. If you can help it. That's pretty much pretty much my mess.

You got it in Yeah.

Okay. All right. Thank you so much.

You're welcome.

Eric is delightful, and she resides at Erica forsythe.com Omni pod is a sponsor of the podcast and specifically of this episode, thank them by going to Omni pod.com forward slash juice box to get started today to learn more to get our free trial, where to check your coverage and of course us med.com forward slash juicebox get your free benefits check. Don't like the internet. Use the phone 888-721-1514 Get your supplies the same way Arden does from us MIT. I want to thank you so much for listening. I'll be back very soon with another episode of The Juicebox Podcast.

Hello friends, and welcome to episode 1035 of the Juicebox Podcast. I found myself wondering recently why it's such a human thing to compare stuff compare things we have or things we want or why we compare people. And why do we have to blame things? Like Why Does something have to be at fault? These are kind of two disconnected but in my mind connected ideas, I wanted to talk more about them. So I brought Erica Forsythe in to have that conversation. If you get done and you're like, oh, Erica is delightful. I'm gonna look into her services, you can check her out at Erica forsythe.com. While you're listening today, please remember that nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise, always consult a physician before making any changes to your health care plan, or becoming bold with insulin. If you're looking for support with your diabetes, check out the Juicebox Podcast private Facebook group Juicebox Podcast type one diabetes. If you'd like to get 40% off of all your cozy items, go to cozy earth.com and use the offer code juice box at checkout. And you will in fact save 40% off of your entire order. The podcast is sponsored today by better help better help is the world's largest therapy service and is 100% online. With better help, you can tap into a network of over 25,000 licensed and experienced therapists who can help you with a wide range of issues. Better help.com forward slash juicebox. To get started, you just answer a few questions about your needs and preferences in therapy. That way BetterHelp can match you with the right therapist from their network. And when you use my link, you'll save 10% On your first month of therapy. You can message your therapist at any time and schedule live sessions when it's convenient for you. Talk to them however you feel comfortable text chat phone or video call. If your therapist isn't the right fit, for any reason at all. You can switch to a new therapist at no additional charge. And the best part for me is that with better help you get the same professionalism and quality you expect from in office therapy. But with a therapist who is custom picked for you, and you're gonna get more scheduling flexibility, and a more affordable price. Better help.com forward slash juicebox that's better help h e l p.com. Forward slash juicebox. Erica, how are you?

I'm doing well. Thanks. How are you? Friday? Friday? Yes,

I just recorded with Jenny an hour ago. And I told her I'm going to get my toe look that and I'm going to be able to take a shower without a big plastic bag on my foot. So I'm super excited.

Yes, oh my goodness, I don't even know. I had

a toe surgery. And I so I have I'm wearing this giant. I mean, it's a foot condom. I don't know another way to put it. But it I have to wear it every time I get in the shower. And for the last three days. I'm like this thing is healed. I definitely don't need to keep this off of water. But I told the guy would till Friday, so I kept doing it. But anyway, tomorrow's shower is going to be include my fulfill.

So good. Yes. So

the people won't know. But we were supposed to start recording a series today. But instead of doing that I kind of jammed in another idea first to get to get ahead of it. I am fascinated and want to know more about why people compare things, and why they need to place blame on things. And I I've been watching it for so long now. Running that Facebook group gives me a really good insight into like, people and how they react to things. And I just want to talk about it. So I don't know a lot about it at all. I just know what I see. But I'd love for you to explain it a little bit to me, please.

Sure. So I think it's interesting that you said why do people compare things and blame things? And I would maybe insert that why do people compare themselves or ourselves with one another or blame ourselves? But maybe I want to clarify are you thinking about it in that perspective? Or? Yeah, maybe in general, so

I think yes. What do I want to say? Okay, so I guess like some like let's start with a couple of examples. Why do I see so many conversations that want to say that type one diabetes is worse than having type Have two diabetes. There's, there's a clear example of that. It feels like at times, there's a need to make sure people understand that I have the worst kind of diabetes. Why is that?

So I would say first and foremost, that might be how you were informed, or educated when you were diagnosed. I think, personally, 33 years ago, when I was diagnosed, I remember that language that like the type one was the harder diagnosis to have, and more life threatening. And consequently, that is a harder one to manage. I think now, I know we've we've talked about this before. Why do we do that? Now when we know that both are challenging? No one is really quote, to blame. But I think we use you know, thinking about the comparison, the social comparison, there's actually a theory that we we do this, humans do this naturally. Sometimes to make ourselves feel better. Sometimes we do it without even knowing it. And we make ourselves feel worse. But it's kind of like a it's a natural human phenomenon that we are comparing ourselves to others. And it can be a positive, right? We can do that positively and make ourselves want to get better, feel better, do better, or we can do it and make ourselves feel worse. But I think the example about the type one versus type two, I have the harder one. And in fact, just recently I was talking with somebody is not not in my practice with a call a friend. And I shared with her I had type one. And she said, Oh, I have type two. I know it's not as bad. She She offered that up to me. I say Oh, no. Like they're they're both challenging and really hard to live with. Yeah. I know. It's interesting

that in that, see, that fascinates me, like, what is the need, right then in there? To let cuz she What is she doing? She's telling you? I'm not saying I have it as bad as you do. Right? Like she Yes. And yes. So that was meant kindly. Like, I know, you have a thing that's worse than me. I'm not going to challenge you about it. But But I don't understand why the brain goes to that right away. So I understand comparing for like, listen, I did it earlier today. Earlier today, I pulled up the top 20 list of podcasts in the medicine category. And I was sitting in 13th. Me a guy who makes a podcast completely by himself. And I'm looking at 13, like corporations ahead of me, like big name people with like staffs and money and like, you know, that kind of thing. And I should look at that and think, wow, look at that. I'm hanging, you know what I mean? And I do, but then the next thought is, how do I get there? How do I move up? But I'm not torturing myself about it. I actually think the podcast is good enough that it could reach enough people that we could like, float up in that top five and six. Right. So that's a comparison that I use to motivate myself. Yes, right. Yes. Right. I'm not trying to make myself feel badly. I did not feel badly when it was over. I'm absolutely happy to be 13. It's amazing. You know what I mean? So I get that I get, I get even being trying to get on a sports team and picking the person who's starting, and you're not starting and saying what is that person doing that I'm not doing? I think that's all very healthy, to be perfectly honest. And I think that part of the reason the podcast works for people is because I've chosen to, I've chosen to say, this is how we do it. Here's the success we have, I think you could do that too. Right? It's not, I'm not thumbing my nose at people and going ha ha ha my kids, they wouldn't see as this like, right. But but there, but there are people that do that. So I get that, I guess, like I understand. But But what do I mean here? It's different mindsets that read it differently, right? So if I can do that thing and say, Hey, listen, here's here's the way it works for us. I hope you can do it too. And there are plenty of people who come along and go I love that. I love that it's helpful. I love that it's giving example I'm going to strive for that. But there are also people who come and see that and go Why are you rubbing it in my face? Like that's their first their first thought? Like, like they think I'm comparing myself to them when I'm not like so why does some people read it as hopeful and other people read it as like an fu

I think It's challenging to introduce big generalizations, but I think it goes back to maybe, what is your concept of just in life around your sense of blame versus taking responsibility? Are you expecting? Perfect perfection? Are you? And if you aren't perfect, where do you go? In your mind? Are you blaming yourself and shaming yourself? Are you saying, Oh, I, I messed up here, I can take some responsibility in that area. But I'm not perfect across the board. You know, understanding that we aren't, we aren't perfect, and we are human. And being kind and compassionate to yourself, I imagine maybe people who might look at in your example of look at how to, you know, manage your type one well, and feel like you're rubbing their being, you know, you're rubbing in their face. Are they then feeling like? They're, they're shameful and blaming themselves, if they can't do it, as opposed to oh, well, maybe I can I can learn and I'm not quite there yet. I'm never going to achieve perfection, but I'm gonna make mistakes. And I can I'm okay.

So their life experience informs their response, whether they know it or not. So if you grew up with a parent who was always telling you, you're not good enough, for example, or you failed a lot in your life, something like that. And then you see somebody doing what you consider to be better than you. I'm making air quotes, again, then you look at that and say, Well, I can't do this, or I don't need to be told that I'm not doing well enough. That makes sense.

Yes. So somewhere along the lines of this, you could have been, I mean, it is common, if you've been exposed to various forms of abuse or neglect as a child, or did not have the proper encouragement and affirmation, that you are good enough. Oftentimes, someone's mindset is, I'm not good enough. I'm never going to be good enough. And no matter how hard I tried, I try, I'm always going to feel this way. And so it's easier. That's painful, but it's an it's an automatic response, when you see someone doing better than you disable, they're just, they're just being they're flaunting it. And I'm never going to be able to achieve that I'm never good enough. So they're kind of maybe stuck a little bit in that blame, and shame mentality. It's, it's painful.

Yeah. And that's really, to me, that's the sadness of it is that somebody could feel like, I don't know how to put this, your life, whatever your life is, is fantastic. If you let it be, and by let it be, I mean, if you accept that this is who I am, or what I am or where I am, or whatever. And that's terrific. If you think that's true, it is true. If you stop comparing yourself to things that are unattainable for you. Right? Like, it's, it's different for me to say I have a fairly popular podcast, and I think I could make it more popular. That's reasonable. But I couldn't look at Idris Elba and say to myself, I really need to look that handsome. And then I'm going to be okay, because I look the way I look. And this is all I have, like, right? I can't make a change to that. So that to me is that's terrible to think that there are people living what they think are unfulfilled lives, when really the only thing that needs to change? Is their definition of good or success or happy or like, right, like, if you is that the idea? Like you can be happy anywhere? If you're? I don't know, do you know what I mean? Like I'm not saying like if I lived on the side of a mountain in Nepal, and I didn't have a code that I could be happy I probably could not be. But like, you know, like, reasonably speaking. It's your own expectation that's crushing. Your ability to enjoy what you have is how it feels to me. I don't know if that's right or not.

And well, the expectation, that mindset, which is, you know, developed over time and evolved over time through all of your, you know, your, your family of origin, your life experiences. And I think thinking about how kind are you to yourself, have you learned that skill set to say, Gosh, I really excelled in this area, and that's amazing, but I failed in this area, but you know what, that's part of human nature. And we all fail and we all suffer we all have pain and to not get stuck in that. That you know, the thought on repeat of. I'm never going to be good enough if that's a hard thing for people to do to just hold that thought of like cache failed and that oops, like, Yeah, that's probably it, I'm gonna be kind of myself and move on that that piece is really hard to have that awareness of the thought, and then move on,

right? It's sort of the idea of that, um, I forget what the number is. But they say like, every person who's achieved a millionaire status has probably gone bankrupt a number of times, on their way to it like that, trying to give people the idea that like, you can't get to it right away the first time. And I do think that that's, um, there's a saying around this that I just heard again, recently, I'm not going to remember it, but that you what you don't see about an overnight success is the 10 years of work that somebody put into it, right. And so you see somebody pop up, out of nowhere, and you think, oh, I should be able to sing a song on Tik Tok, and blah, blah, blah, you know, this all should happen to me after that. But that's not the case. Like, that's not how it happened. You're seeing the one example of that of the person who actually made it all the way. And it you can't, you can't make that happen. It just, you can, you have to, like I don't know, like, in my mind, Erica, forget telling people what to do. I think life is short. And that you should try to be happy. You know, and I get why you can't, at times, but then if you're hitting one of those roadblocks, you should, in my opinion, you should focus on how to get around that roadblock. Instead of just running into it starting over running into it starting over over and over again, like think like, obviously, what I'm trying to do is being blocked by another part of my psyche. Like, I have to fix that thing, or understand it or whatever, so that I can keep moving on my journey and try to get to this place I'm trying to get because I think I don't know if I brought this up with you or not. But this is gonna sound like a bummer for a second. I don't mean, this is a bummer. The end of my mom's life taught me that a lot of being alive is setting goals, achieving goals, and resetting goals. And that once those carrots are gone off those sticks, it's kind of difficult to find a reason to get up in the morning, if that makes sense. Like Like, once it all feels gone. Like I'm not going anywhere. What am I doing? And I don't know if that's kind of like the worker bee mentality that's born into like living things or not. But you know, if you need something to do, and I don't know, and you can't always be focused. You can't just be focused out a mile. Some of it has to be now if think about now today, with a longer goal, I think, if that makes sense or not. I also don't know if there's a question there. So good luck talking now,

I think will be the goal setting moving forward in life. That might be easier for some than others. For example, if you have a perfectionistic mindset, or that you feel like you are in control of things you could you could get stuck and not wanting to move forward or evolve or try new things. Because what if you fail? What if you don't get it right the first time, then where does the blame go? You goes right back on yourself, you're gonna say, Well, gosh, I see, look, I tried and I failed. I'm not going to try again. Because look what happens every time?

Well, then use that comparison thing and compare yourself to somebody doing worse than you and you'll feel terrific. That's all.

Well, you know, they say, you know that I think both as we said in the beginning, you know, comparing quote up versus comparing down, that there's maybe a little bit that can be healthy or helpful maybe is a better word, to a certain extent. But then it could also become a trap, right? Like we talked about the social media highlight reels if you're constantly trying to find self worth, by looking at your friends or friends of friends, social media reels, and saying, Well, I'm never going to be able to travel there or achieve that agency or get invited to these parties. You're going to feel you're constantly comparing up and that you're never good enough and you're never going to achieve or you could say gosh, look they're they're doing these things and maybe somehow I can change a little bit in my life and get there or comparing down. Which I know that gets controversial even saying that phrase of like comparing down to say like, wow, look at that person's thing or house or dress so I look way better

the value there. But by the way, psychological cycle Psychology Today believes there's value in that the or can be valuable in comparing them to give yourself a boost. But I guess then the concern would be if I'm just going to try to paint I really hamfisted picture if I'm a homeless, drug addicted person, and then there's a homeless person who's not drug addicted. If I go, Oh, well, I might be homeless, but at least I'm not using heroin, that is not going to propel you out of your situation, it could make you feel falsely comfortable in a situation you don't really want to be in. Is that fair? That's fair.

And I think to do it, every now and again, is fine. But again, going back to that, if that's your only source of finding, self worth or value by looking at other people's lives and saying, well, at least I'm not there. That that then maybe is an inauthentic place of of satisfaction, right? Yeah.

So if it's a if it's a human instinct to compare ourselves, and you can get stuck in any number of these scenarios that we've painted, if you find yourself in that, how do you break free of it? Is there I mean, if I came in the office and said this to you like, what would you say to me?

Well, it would it would be more than a one session quick fix? To be totally honest, I think it would, we would first start in just practicing the awareness of how often do you find yourself comparing? Is it? Is it all day long? Are you scrolling, thinking about what you don't have or what you have? And trying to gain that sense of self value or worth? So practicing the awareness around? How frequently are you doing that? And then, and then working through that? You know, I think a lot of people say, Well, if you just had higher self esteem, you know, there was a big push in the psychological world, that we just, we all need more self esteem. And then more recently, in the last, like, 10 years, it's been more about self compassion. And so we would look at that, are you if you're feeling like, you need more self esteem already in that space, you're judging yourself for not having self esteem, right? And saying, Gosh, I don't think I don't think well of myself. And you can get trapped in that. So we would then look at, you know, how, how are you offering kindness to yourself in areas where you excel in areas where you struggle, and oftentimes, that's where we spend a lot of time is looking at that self compassion piece?

Am I off base by saying that it would be valuable to want what you have? Like, a? How do I mean this?

I grew up having gratitude, you said is,

I just I mean, I think what I mean is, like, not looking at something, and always thinking, Yeah, well, this is what I've achieved, but I want that thing. Like, if you want what you have, you can be happy with what you have, if you're always wanting something you don't have, then you're always going to be dissatisfied with yourself. And then I could see where the self esteem could spiral and and then by the way, I see what you're saying about the falsely propping people up with the like, you're terrific when you're not terrific, right? Like, right, like, why not just say hey, you're really good. Like, why? Why? Cuz I think you I don't see how that could work. Because if you tell me something about myself that I know is not true. I'm not going to believe it in my mind. To get made feel nice, like for a second. But, you know, if somebody walks up to me goes, oh my god, you're so tall. I'm gonna go thank you and then walk right and go, I am not tall, like like, right? But but if I wander around thinking I'm tall all the time. I think that's a disservice. Like, whereas I could just think this is how tall I am. That's great. Like, who cares? I don't need to be taller than this. I don't know if that makes sense.

But what I feel like what that is kind of practicing mindfulness and acceptance of the truth and of the of whatever your thought is, you know, being comfortable with having uncomfortable feelings or not that you're saying you're uncomfortable about your height,

but what I am I want to be taller. Like if you if you pin me down ugly Scott, were you out on your height? I'd say got more inches be terrific. Like, but it's not ruining my life. Do you know what I mean?

Right? So you've accepted that okay, let's just this is like a physical trait. You've accepted your height fine, you're okay with that. And so thinking about like a feeling and emotion that maybe feels uncomfortable when you are able to hold that uncomfortable feeling. You are then in turn telling your mind your soul, your heart, your body, that you are okay, just exactly as you are. And it doesn't mean then you're gonna go stew and feeling sad or rejected because you didn't Get the job, or disappointed because your agency is lower, you're just able to say, Gosh, I am feeling really frustrated, maybe even depressed. And I'm going to just hold this I'm going to be comfortable being uncomfortable. And then and then that it's moving on. But the minute we say, oh, no, I can't I can't feel that way. I can't accept how tall I am. I can't accept that I was rejected, then we get stuck there.

Are there some people that want themselves or their situation to be not just comfortable for themselves are happier, it's something they're happy with. They want it to be something that everyone would universally agree on. Like, you only mean like, which is a weird thing to me, because some of the prettiest people are not classically pretty. Do you know what I mean? Like and so why, like, why are you trying to look like a angular job blonde model from the 70s? If, first of all, that's not everybody's thought about why I think that's what you think is that where they say, like magazine covers need to be representative is oh, that I'm saying it now. Okay? Because otherwise, if we mark it over and over again, this is what pretty is, then that's the thing that I judge you guys, okay, I'm starting understand. But But what you don't know is what's in most people's heads. And I'm gonna make an incredibly weird comparison here for a second, it's gonna make you uncomfortable. It's making me uncomfortable to bring it up. But it makes the point it makes the point really, really well go to any porn site, okay? And there are dozens of genres that people love. And they're not at all what you would think of as classically, whatever. Like, do you know what I mean? Like, there's like, there's a person out there for you, no matter who you are. And I don't, I don't think people believe that. Like, I understand, like, but I understand why that would be difficult to believe. But that's just the truth. There's, I asked my wife sometimes, like, um, we did this game the other day, with a bunch of famous people. I can't believe I'm gonna tell you, we did this. So we pulled up a list of like, the what we googled most attractive, blah, blah, blah. And we went through it, we were like, I don't really see it with that person. Or yeah, that and what it shows you is, is that, like, my particular interest, doesn't lend itself to the fifth person on the most attractive list. Like when my wife went when my daughter said to me, who do you when you think of a famous person who's really pretty, who do you think of? And I was like, Kate Winslet. And my daughter grows, really? And I'm like, yeah, no, Kate Winslet and, and she's like, why am I I don't know, like, that's who pops into my head? Or, you know, some guys are looking for? I don't know, big butts. And some women are looking for really skinny dorky looking guys. And like, why are we so trying to look like Linda Evangelia Lisa, like, they don't mean like that. There's a name I just randomly picked out of my Yeah. I really just with that one out. But she's a person who in my mind, is classically beautiful, like, but I don't think she's particularly attractive. So like, Why are we always trying to be the thing? If we know that's not true? Because we have those feelings to, like, you know what I mean? Like, I'm walking around, knowing that I don't find classically beautiful women to be perfect. But yet, I want myself to be classically perfect. Because when they when Arden said like, Who do you want to look like, if you could look like anybody else? Like, Oh, George Clooney? Like, that's easy, right? And Arden goes, I don't think George Clooney is attractive. And I think that interesting. Yeah. And I think this game makes you should all play this game with yourself. I think it would teach you a lot in the past half an hour in the kitchen pretty nicely. So but, but I That's my confusion, like, Why do I know that I don't think Classic is classic. But yet, when I went when somebody asked me what I wanted to look like, I should have said me, and I should I said George Clooney. All right. I don't understand.

So Well, I think also let's acknowledge your, your brain is developed, more so than you know the teenage brain. And so when when teenagers young children are exposed over and over and over again, you know, in our in our day, it was me magazine covers, but now on social media. They are exposed and that and by advertising, this is beauty. So even if and I hear what you're saying that you your sense, and how you define beauty is different than your daughter's or attractiveness or good looking Enos but yeah, We are trained to believe what what beauty should look like. And when you're younger, you're, that's, you absorb that. And so that's what leads oftentimes to destructive behaviors and destructive thinking. Because we're not, we don't look that way or own that thing or do that thing.

So to move it away from looks, and why do I see so many people comparing how they eat to how other people eat. And I don't just mean in the diabetes space. I mean, this is if you want to start a fight in two seconds, it's catnip to say that the best way to eat is this, and then people will come in and compare and contrast and you don't understand about protein and you don't understand about fat and you don't understand about carbs, oh my God, and then I eat the best way. And none of the what you're doing is wrong. These are like this happens constantly. Like why would I? I almost cursed, I'm gonna curse. Why do I give how anybody else eats? Like, I don't understand. Why does that matter? Hey, guys, just jumping in to remind you that one of our sponsors better help is offering 10% off your first month of therapy, when you use my link, better help.com forward slash juice box. That's better. H e l p.com. Forward slash juice box. Better help is the world's largest therapy service. It is 100% online boasts over 25,000 licensed and experienced therapists. And you can talk to them however you want text chat phone or on video, you can actually message your therapist at any time and schedule live sessions when it's convenient for you. Better help.com forward slash juice box save 10% On your first month.

The first thing that comes to mind is it's feel similar to religion, maybe and how people have belief systems, they have value system images, or maybe value systems. And you when you discover your truth, and whether it's your religion, or your value system or belief system, you want to share and quote proselytize to others. And so I wonder if it begins that way of like, wow, I discovered this way of eating, and I feel so good. And I've lost X amount of weight or I feel I have so much energy, and you want to share and maybe it's exciting. But then I know it quickly can evolve into criticism and, and really cruel type of commentary. Yeah, that I found the way and you haven't I'm not? Do you find that people get there go there first, or it becomes like, Oh, this is so exciting. Yeah.

So I get to watch a lot of conversation. And they are all going to go the exact same way. There's, there's, I could, I could probably look at a post and take a magic marker and go, okay, this person brought up food today, because they just found a great way and they want to they share it with somebody, you can tell in their tone, the wording right away, say, a similar poster come up from somebody who like this person is here, because they got just a little crazy in their head. And they think it's their job to tell the whole world this thing. So those are the two different, like ways that can change points. The third entry point is when someone comes up and says, Hey, I have a question, what do you think I should do? So there's either the person who's like going to change the world, there's the person who's just excited to talk. And there's the person who doesn't know and is looking for input from people, no matter how they start. They're always going to end the same way. Now the one that starts with let me tell you, that is met with resistance more quickly. So but it's also met with more support. So the other let me tell you, people will come in and start going yay, Yeah, that guy knows he knows we're together solidarity. But then the people who feel like they don't want to be talked to like that, or B have a different idea. They're going to attack back based on the way the first person came into the story. That makes sense. Yes. And then that fight happens. Now the person who comes in and says, Hey, I've been doing this, and it's really been working for me. They're going to be met by somebody who says, Well, I do this and it works for me. Then someone's going to come in to defend the first person, then someone's going to come in to defend the second person, and then it turns to the same goddamn conversation from the first. And then the same thing happens if someone's just like, hey, I'm newly diagnosed, and I was wondering, here's an interesting one. My kids getting sick and tired of cheese sticks and jello. I need more free foods that will be met by lovely parents who We'll come in and give other options for low carb snacks. But inside of eight minutes, someone's going to come to tell them, there's no such thing as a free food. Which is true. They don't know that because they were just diagnosed, okay? But instead of just saying they don't mean free, they mean their understanding of free and saying to them, Hey, I know you're calling that a free food, but just heads up. You know, your kid might be honeymooning right now you're you might be seeing a doctor who's over baseline you to cover for your snacking, like that kind of stuff. But there's pretty much carbs and almost everything. And even something for example, like chicken that doesn't have carbs in it will be stored by your body as glucose later, and you'll see a rise later, right? You could say that. But instead, what they say is, there's no such thing as free foods, which is true, but not going to move the conversation along. So that's an interesting thing that people do too, is they'll come in and drop their truth bomb, but not add any context. Those people I always think are trying to search. That's how it seems to me. Like that's, that's kind of actually that's the phrase I use. I think there's sorry, here's what I think. Right? Like they,

yes, maybe, maybe, maybe intentionally, maybe unintentionally. But I also wonder if you have this experience of, you know, there is such a huge learning curve in type one. And I would in the beginning, everything is so overwhelming, and you don't know what's what. And then one year in five years, in 10 years, and you start to learn more, and I wonder if you also have a sense of like, Oh, I've learned this, I know this 100% I feel pretty good about myself. But we forget that how our tone is going to

Yeah, the communication. Yeah, communication, lets them download. Listen, I was put in a unique situation where I had to talk to people online for years, and it becomes obvious that you're like, there is a way to speak to people, that is not condescending, and it is not fake. But it doesn't make anybody upset. It's an A, you have to come from a like a real, honest point of view. And I still have a point of view, people know that I'm not like, I'm not milk toast, you know what I mean? But at the same time, there's a way to talk to people where you don't rile them up. And there's also a way to see that someone's already riled up beforehand. And then they start blaming each other. You're the reason that people would diabetes. It's people like you, it statements like that, like, that's, you're ruining the world, I figured out the great world, and you're ruining it. And then there's this feeling, I'm always amazed by people on their social media, or in these situations. They feel like they're talking to the whole world. I'm like, you're talking to hate people just calm down, like, like, nobody's you're not changing a goddamn thing. You're arguing with six people stop it, you know, like, or somebody with 150 followers on Instagram is putting up something that they clearly took the I don't know, days to write, and it's beautiful in prose, and everything in it gets three clicks. And I'm like, No one saw that, you know, but they still are acting like they're, that they're having that impact that drive. i It seems unstable to me. I don't know another way to put it. So that feeling that I'm talking to you and you need to listen, like that feels like that person has something to work out. That has nothing to do with this sometimes.

Some Yeah, I think the probably a variety of factors. But trying I think going back to the having some semblance of control in feeling like you're in control of your life, or of your kids choices. We do that even though we know we're not we're not in control and birth control of some things. But in the larger picture, we're not really in control of everything. And perhaps that feeling of when maybe when life is spilling out of control, maybe you might speak in a certain way to say no, this this is the way it has to be done. This is the way it works for me. And this is the way you should do it. And maybe they lean into that sense of control when maybe other things are feeling more out of control.

Yeah. So I'm going to use this as an example the other day online. I saw a person jump into a thread and stairs, like it was clear that's what they were doing. And then I took a hard look and I thought I know this person. They've been in here a long time. That doesn't make sense to me. And I had to remove their comment because it was hurtful and nasty and it was just gonna leave Need to more hurtful and nasty. And I took it out. But I took the moment to send a note. And I said, Hey, I don't know what's going on. But you can't do that. And you've been here a long time, this really surprised me. And I got a return note that said, I'm really sorry, I have two different family members in the hospital, one of them's out of state, I need to find a better way to relieve my stress here then to get online and do what I just did. And so my expectation is, is that most people are having some sort of a thing in their day, when this happens, like, I genuinely think people are, like, decent. You know what I mean? Like I don't, I don't think that anybody just in their best moment gets up and says, Let me go argue with somebody about what we're eating, or let me go compare this to that, or go blame a whole group of people for whatever. I don't think that that's the case, I think that, that there are enough people in the world, and they don't have enough access to the internet, that it only takes a couple of people having a bad day, to give you the impression that the world is a terrible place. And I just don't think that's true. You know, so I got a lot out of that response. And then I responded back and I said, Hey, you know, I just lost my mom, I think I have some idea of what you're talking about, and know how hard it is, I'm sorry, um, you know, please just, you know, keep visiting the group and feeling better. And if you're feeling like you need to lash out, like, I don't know, go do something else. Like, like, you know, leave those people alone. But, but I was the only one that had that compassionate response. Because when he started doing what he was doing, everybody else was like, boom, coming back at him swinging with some people are like, here's the rules in the group, or here, you can't say that or be nice or why. And I'm like, Oh, my God, like, none of this is going to go well. Like, you don't see that. And then they'll start telling me, like, he's wrong, not me. Because I'll say, Hey, be nice to him. And they'll be like, me, I'm not the problem. Like, ah, now you're both the problem. Like everyone should have to moderate a group of 40,000 people for a week, because you would you start seeing the world in a completely different way. It's, it's interesting. And my group is, and I think you can attest to this really harmonious and generally speaking, overall, a pretty lovely place to be, but it's still when it pops up. You're like, Oh, here's all the stuff that we go to therapy for.

Yeah, I'm sure you see so many, you know, patterns of human nature that we all can grow in, you know, certain areas at certain times. I think one thing I just actually noticed in your in a post I read recently, that I thought was really gracious and kind a network that like totally off topic, kind of but you know, reading, I think oftentimes we insert ourselves, like you just said without reading the initial post or reading the thread, and someone very graciously said, Hey, I think you missed the first like the actual question, maybe go back and read the initial post. And I thought that was a really kind reminder to, like, you wouldn't insert yourself in a conversation that was happening in the living room if you were in the kitchen? Without I mean, maybe you would, but you know, without understanding what was happening, what's the context?

I know what you're talking about? And I've seen it done both ways. I've seen it done like, Hey, I think you missed like the tone of like, you missed the question. There's also people who didn't miss the question. They're just using it as an opportunity to give you their opinion. And so it's, it's interesting, and I don't think everybody is going to listen to this and go, Oh, I do that I should do better. And as a matter of fact, I don't. I don't know. I don't think it's gonna help anybody. But I'm also I'm very cynical about this stuff. Because I just, when, when we're talking about something that is built over time, through experience, like through parenting, or upbringing, even if it's being pointed out to you right now, what is your real, like, chance of like, grabbing a hold of it and redirecting it? And my honest, my honest thought is, you have the best chance, in a situation like this where a person me and you who have no connection to their lives, like the people who are listening can say, hey, if this is happening to you, this is how it sounds to other people. Like maybe you don't want to sound like this because I don't think this is a thing. You can tell a spouse or a child or a close, like, you don't I mean, like I bet you if your husband acts up and you say something to him, he's like, Don't therapy me, and like, I'm not digging into your life, but I'm assuming that's happened.

It's happened, okay.

So you have a much greater chance of helping people you don't know who have no connection to you, then you do with helping the people around you. Because all this insight that I have, doesn't help me that much with my wife. Because she's like, you're an idiot. I've known you forever. Like, you know what I mean? Like, if you knew something like, you know, me, like, she doesn't take me seriously the way other people would. And my point about that is that everyone's in that situation, this is your best opportunity to see yourself in some of these descriptions and say, I don't want to be like that. Like, to me, that's why I'm having the conversation. So there's a look behind me, that's why I'm having this conversation. Because I think it could help people. But also, yes,

yes, hopefully, and I think goes back to, you know, having the awareness and and the desire to change. And, and taking it back to, you know, why do we compare, I think, with it, but the example that we've been using in the Facebook group with food and eating styles, perhaps you feel that you obviously feel better about the way that you're eating, and maybe you find that self worth, that you've you found the way and you're going to compare it to other people, and that you feel better than other people, because you found a way that works for you. And I think that the highlight, you know, underlying theme that I know you talk about a lot in your Facebook group and on the the podcast is, you know, do what works for you. And that's okay, there's no right or wrong method of eating. And if we could all live in that space, that would be a beautiful thing to remember, you know, that's great if ketto works for you, or if eating whatever you want works for you. And doesn't always have to be all or nothing. Yeah.

And it is more attractive to people psychologically to blame someone than it is to praise them. Is that not true?

To blame, so psychologically attractive,

like, are our brain lame, or? Yeah, like we're kind of wired. Like the blaming feels better than the prick than praising does that you'll hear people say that when you're being kind, it sounds fake to them. Do you ever hear people say that? Oh, I'm that makes me really sad when people say that, but like, you're being kind, you're phony, like, I'm not feeling as well, I think, you know, so they're so wired towards the destructive, like the blame, yes, that when they see kind, it rubs them wrong. That's really something

it's hard to receive and internalize as truth. Yes. And I think as the as the deliver, I was, I'm trying to understand that the sentence that you just said to, like, psychologically attractive to blame somebody? Are you saying that as like the person who's receiving that, or as the person or

the person who gives it, like, I guess you get a feeling of superiority by blaming, right? So that's probably, and then that raises you up to, I'm better than these people like you. So all the all the self doubt you have inside, you can make it go away by pointing to someone who's clearly doing something wrong.

Right? And that would, I would maybe argue that that's like, Oh, I'm going to boost my self esteem. I'm doing this thing of, I'm gonna blame somebody else, I'm gonna feel better about my thing. And then I have this kind of false self esteem. As opposed to, well, maybe maybe I have it right. Maybe I don't, that's okay. I'm just gonna be kind of myself regardless. Yeah.

And listen, this, this conversation is extra interesting to me. Because if you're living with diabetes, or you're caring for somebody who has it, you are being judged constantly, by by blood tests and numbers on things and arrows and beeping and clarity reports, just, you know, your you can say, you're not being judged, and you shouldn't take this judgment. And that's all true, but it's happening, you are being judged constantly, right? You are either doing something right, or you're doing something wrong, or you're getting something right, and you don't even know how the hell it happens. You can't even take credit for, you know, like, like, and so that stuff's all happening. I think it's important to know that you're having all these different impacts like that we've been talking about because you are then going to go have a human interaction with somebody, your children, your husband, your wife, like somebody in your life, somebody online, and you're gonna have all these bad feelings that you don't have time to deal with because you're busy trying to keep someone's blood sugar from being dangerous one way or the other. And then, I don't know, I just think that most of the people who come off poorly online, I think if we could grab them one at a time, like I did with that person in my example, you'd find that is not who they are. It's not how they feel. And if you gave them a do over they would certainly not say the thing they just said. And I think the only way to slow that down is if everyone He understands that we're all in a really it's a high tension situation taking care of diabetes. Like constantly, you know, I feel at the time yeah, you feel like a, like a hostage negotiator constantly, like everything you do is about to kill somebody if you do it wrong, like, you know, so that's how it makes me feel.

Absolutely, absolutely. And I think that's why, you know, I know I say it, probably almost every episode that we record, but just the significance of taking responsibility where you can releasing the blame and offering the self compassion of like, this is really hard to nail it every time. And we're not going to I mean, that's okay.

I think you have to treat it like, like hitting a baseball, honestly. And just go wow, I got three out of the last 10 I'm so good at this. Yeah, I just really like that's it. I mean, that's an old saying, right, but you go three for 10 through a career, you're in the Hall of Fame. So hitting a baseball is really, really hard to do. Is that

Is that a true? That's a real stat. I did not know that. Yeah, hold

on an average batting average. Of Hall of Fame. Average batting average of a Hall of Famer. Hall a second. Okay. So the top three are like old timey so they weren't even playing when people were athletic. Okay, Ty Cobb has the lifetime average of 366 point. 366 Rogers Hornsby point. 358 Joe Jackson, that's Shoeless Joe Jackson point. 356. Ted Williams batted career point 344. And to find somebody more like here, look, I don't know. If you don't know baseball. You don't know baseball. Tony Gwynn was a pro hitter. He batted point 338 for his his career, he got slightly over three hits every 10 times he was at bat. And there are people, big name people here and I'm scrolling down like I'm in the top 600. Now like, I'll give you a name that people are just gonna know. It's an old name. Roy Campanella. That's a baseball name. People know. He batted point. 276. That's it. Wow. So Cal Ripken, Jr. has a lifetime point. 276 batting average.

And point two, seven. Yeah. So he got less than

three hits every 10 times. And he's one of the best shortstops that ever played. And so, you know, it's just that, to me, is how I mean, I know this is overly simplified, but that's how I think about things. Like when you hear me say something, and you think I'm joking, I'm like, I set the bar really low. That way, I can't even trip over it. Like, like everything I do. I'm like, again, me succeeding. Right? And because you need that momentum, to set that next carrot on that next stick, and keep going. Like if you, if you bury yourself under a pile of dread the first time you do something you spend your whole life digging yourself out from it. Me, I was like, I can't believe I got dressed today. I'm killing it. Like, like, you know, and I just, there's a way to, there's a way to trick yourself into feeling that way. And then is what are you doing? You're faking it till you make it? Right? Like, that's a real thing for a reason. You know, so you keep to me, it's setting little, little goals succeeding and moving on. I do with my kids all the time, I'll even let them know I'm doing it. Like, you know, like, the other day. I said to my son, I was like, You should set up a, an IRA for yourself. Right? And he's like, Yeah, and I was like, yeah, man, I'm like, You got a job now, like, it won't be a lot of money. But you can put a little money aside every month. And, and I made sure to tell him like, you could have a short term goal of maybe owning a home if you wanted to, in the next 10 years, or something like that, you're gonna have a long term goal about retiring. And I said, and it doesn't need to be a lot, you can put in a little bit a manageable amount, and you'll get to these things. And he's like, okay, like, and that's it. So then I set him up with a person to help him set up an IRA, Ira. And then he called me and he said, Hey, I talked to the guy, and I was like, that's great. Great that you talk to him. I said, what's next? And he said, Oh, I gotta fill out the paperwork as I go. Let me know when you do that if you need help. And a week later, I got a call, Hey, what does this mean on this form? And I told him and he goes, good, you got all done as a great job. And he's like, thanks. I said, Hey, I'd like to put some money in it to get you started. And he's like, Oh, thank you. And he goes, You know what he said, I'll match whatever you put in up to this much. And I said, Well, if that's as much as you can put in, that's as much as I can put in and so and now he's on his way. Like

there's so many sweets so endearing. Oh my gosh, but but, but I

didn't tell you because I'm how terrific I am. I told you because, hey, first of all, I wish somebody would have talked to me about money when I was a part Some, like a young person. And secondly, because that's an example of like five or six opportunities to put a little tiny carrot out in front of him. He reaches out and grabs it. He feels like he did something, I filled out the paperwork. Yeah, me, I called the guy yay, me, like that kind of stuff. And he feels like he's doing something without having a down payment on the house. Like, right? He, he thinks he's working towards it, I gotta be honest with you, it doesn't matter if he ever, it doesn't matter if he ever gets to it, it matters, that he has something to do, and that he has something to focus on, and that it's positive, and that it's achievable. Short term, long term. That's all I don't want to say I'm a genius, Erica, but there I just fixed it for you just do that.

Well, then he, he's having this feedback loop, right? Of I did this thing, and I felt good about myself. And that is so important for the overall mental health right there who knows he has the capability, the competency, then he feels good for fulfilling that goal. And that's, that's super important that you're, you know, helping shape him in those steps.

But that's the thing you could all do for yourself in little ways. All day long. Like if if you say, I'm going to put the laundry away, and then you don't do it, you made too big of a goal. Like you make it make a smaller thing and reach for that. You'll be surprised how it'll just get you like motivated. It makes you feel like you're doing something and you are by the way, you're not really lying to yourself, you are getting something accomplished. But that momentum and that expectation, by the way that you're going to accomplish things, it builds on itself. And then you don't have to be out in the world constantly comparing yourself to other people just to feel better, you'll actually feel better, because you've compared yourself to a thing that you did. And then you're the focus then yours, then you're George Clooney to you. Does that all make sense? I mean, I feel like I've bundled this up very nicely for everybody. But, but, but it's just that easy. Well, it's obviously not that easy. But But yes, it is. Right. Like there's, there's no more to it than that. I mean, the doing it's hard. The understanding what it is, is not hard, like and so I think my point is if you find yourself comparing yourself to people all the time, or if you find yourself blaming other people all the time, you just you probably just don't feel good about what you're doing. So go back and set the small goals where you can feel better about yourself, like don't look at your 12 a one C and when it's not a six next time, go What the hell say I wonder if I can get this to an 11 and a half. You only mean and, and work like that. To me, that makes sense.

Anyway, yeah, taking smaller, a larger goal, breaking it up into smaller chunks. We talk I talk about that a lot. And even just, you know, thinking about like, the laundry example, or the exercise of like, okay, if the doing folding the laundry, putting away I feel that that is a really challenging task in my household is to say, I'm gonna do the socks today, you know, and you're like, Yes, I did the socks and tomorrow, you're gonna do the shirts. Same thing with any task of saying, I'm just gonna set the timer and do it for five minutes. And you're done. Don't, don't do the treadmill for 30 Do it for five,

I had trouble standing up after my surgery on my foot. So I said to my wife and my daughter who's home from school, right now, if you guys could just fold the laundry. That'd be really great. Right? So they took care of their laundry, they left my laundry folded on my side of the room. And I thought, I can't put this away right now. So I told myself, I'm going to dress out of the pile. And I'm going to make that okay for myself this week. Yeah, so I got dressed out of the pile of clothing, like they were in the drawers. And I didn't say to myself, you're a scumbag for not putting these clothes away. I can't believe you're living out of a pile of clothes. I actually said that's my goal. I'm gonna live out the pile of clothes today because I can't stand up too long because of my foot. And I don't want to torture myself about this. And I know that when I walk into the room, I look at the pile of clothing. And I think just put that away. Don't do that. But instead I just made it an okay thing. And that was it. And by the way, I still got the podcast on. I got other stuff accomplished this week. And I don't know it's all here. Listen, I'm gonna make this last point and you can wrap up. I don't know if you know who showy Otani is, but he's arguably the best baseball player that is alive right now playing the names familiar? Yeah, he's batting point. 306 Right now, every person in the world who understands baseball would want him on their baseball team. He's astonishingly good. So that's it be a be a 300 battery, batting average. That's what I would do. I'd shoot for that be amazing. You get three out of 10 things done that you set up every week. Then just reset them again. You know, I don't know. And here's a piece of advice from me to anybody else. Make your to do list flexible. Don't set one to 10 And then say to yourself, I can't get to two until I do one. If If three becomes more important than one to you slide three to one, just keep moving it around it, it goes a long way to not torturing yourself. So anyway,

that's it, may I add on your to do list? Be kind yourself. Sometimes I encourage people to have your big to do list and then on Monday, you have folded laundry, number one, number two, be kind yourself. And then that's and then number two on Tuesdays two of those things,

again, a very doable, that's what I'm saying. It's a very doable thing that you can check off your list make you feel like you've accomplished something, and it's good for you on top of that, so Yeah, beautiful. That's exactly right. All right, Erica, Erica forsythe.com. Right, what states are doing virtually right now?

California, Utah, Oregon, and Florida,

in person in California, in person in California. Okay, thank you very much.

Thank you.

First, I want to thank Erica and remind you to check her out at Erica foresight.com that I want to thank all of you for listening, and better help for sponsoring this episode better help.com forward slash juice box save 10% off your first month of therapy when you use my link. I hope you enjoyed our little thought exercise today. I enjoyed having the conversation with Erica, if you want to check out the private Facebook group that we were talking about. It's called Juicebox Podcast type one diabetes. That's pretty much it. Thanks so much for listening. I'll be back very soon with another episode of The Juicebox Podcast. A day diabetes diagnosis comes with a lot of new terminology. And that's why I've created the defining diabetes series. These are short episodes where Jenny Smith and I go over all of the terms that you're going to hear living with diabetes, and some of them that you might not hear every day, from the very simple Bolus up to feed on the floor. Don't know the difference between hypo and hyper will explain it to you. These are short episodes, they are not boring. They're fun, and they're informative. It's not just us reading to you out of the dictionary, we take the time to chat about all of these different words. Maybe you don't know what a coup small respiration is, you will when you're done. Ever heard of glycemic index and load haven't doesn't matter. You will know after you listen to the defining diabetes series. Now, how do you find it, you go to juicebox podcast.com up top to the menu and click on defining diabetes. You'll be able to listen right there in your browser. Or you'll see the full list of the episodes and be able to go into an audio app like Apple podcasts or Spotify and listen to them at your pace. Download them into your phone and listen when you can. The defining diabetes series is made up of 51 short episodes. That will fast forward your knowledge of diabetes terminology

Hello friends, welcome to episode 1172 of the Juicebox Podcast. In this episode of the podcast, Erica Forsythe is back, and we're gonna discuss the balance between perfection and health. Learn more about Erica at Erica forsythe.com Nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise, always consult a physician before making any changes to your health care plan. When you place your first order for ag one with my link, you'll get five free travel packs and a free year supply of vitamin D. Drink ag one.com/juice box don't forget to save 40% off of your entire order at cosy earth.com All you have to do is use the offer code juice box at checkout that's juice box at checkout to save 40% at cosy earth.com If you're looking for community around type one diabetes, check out the Juicebox Podcast private Facebook group Juicebox Podcast type one diabetes, but everybody is welcome type one type two gestational loved ones. It doesn't matter to me. If you're impacted by diabetes and you're looking for support, comfort or community check out Juicebox Podcast type one diabetes on Facebook this show is sponsored today by the glucagon that my daughter carries G voc hypo pen. Find out more at G voc glucagon.com forward slash juicebox. Today's episode of The Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by the contour next gen blood glucose meter. This is the meter that my daughter has on her person right now. It is incredibly accurate and waiting for you at contour next one.com/juice box. This episode of The Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by the ever sent CGM and implantable six month sensor is what you get with ever since. But you get so much more exceptional and consistent accuracy over six months. And distinct on body vibe alerts when you're higher low on body vibe alerts. You don't even know what that means to you. Ever since cgm.com/juicebox. Go find out. Eric, I feel like I haven't heard from you in a while. What happened?

It does feel like it's been a while January and February happened. I think it was a disease two months the holidays. Yes. Well, this

is better than the last time there was a gap in me hearing from you when you have like some surgery or something like that. Yes,

I had my knee replacement. That was a couple months. It was couple two years ago. But we were we didn't talk for a couple of

months. Cuz you were busy rehabbing. You have a life or something like that, that I'm not completely aware of. So what I did this time, because we're getting back together, and we finished up the parenting series, which by the way, the last episode of it goes up in a couple of days. Okay, what I did was I sent you for ideas that were sent to me by the moderator of my Facebook group based on things that people had said in the Facebook group. And they're, by the way, literally saying, Hey, would you talk to Erica about this? It wasn't just like a abstract question. It was like you should talk to Eric about this. And it's like, all right. Oh, that's fun. Yeah. So you picked one of the four tell people what you picked. So

I thought that we could focus on finding the right balance of, you know, living with a chronic disease. But I think we can hear that with perfectionism and trying to go back and forth between what is it like to try to manage your blood sugar from a perfectionist perspective? And then how can we move to a more balanced way of managing and living it whether you're living with it or the caregiver,

right? Do you know while you were talking, I did my best Google foo and I typed in finding balance between perfectionism and chronic illness. And a lot of scholarly articles came back. That interesting that

is, and I did some Googling and I just perpetually impressed by how many articles there are on mental health and diabetes that was not present. Even 10 years ago, you know, as a the prevalence of it. Yeah. Yeah.

Nobody was thinking about that. I don't think so. Okay, so what do we have here? We have an every day situation that some days is more in the forefront and some days more in the background, always very important. You know, when you're ignoring it, it's to your detriment. And at the same time, if you run around trying to be perfect about it, it's going to burn you out or make you crazy. Yes. And so what's the middle of that?

Yeah. is one of our first few episodes I think we ever recorded was on burnout. And I think we'll definitely touch on that. But I think and we've talked about, you know, the mental load of, of being a parent in general. And I also thought I just realized I'm holding up to Scott, my February 2024 issue of Psychology Today. Oh, look at and what is the title burnout

about that burnout? Yeah, that's not specifically about diabetes. No, no, but

in and I'll probably reference it maybe a few times because I just was reading through it this morning. Talking about you know, the data with parenting with children with chronic illness. And that right currently, as many as 20% of parents identify as feeling burnout but the rates are higher from parents of children with a chronic illness and that's According to research from or re bro Sweden forgive me for the pronunciation but 20% so that that's a that's a significant amount without chronic illness

no chronic illness in the life and parents are still one in five parents is like I am I visit them too much.

Yes, gotcha. Yes. And we can talk about those factors. Yeah. So

I my brain goes immediately to that there's a utopia in your mind when you get married. That's something you expect and then when you have children, you build a family and then the further it gets away from your image. The more I Gosh, I don't want to say disappointing but maybe the more disappointed you are and then maybe the more difficult that is then to rev up to do the things that you didn't expect you don't I mean, like it's a very simple idea but on the 7000 day in a row that you've made lunch there's a voice in your head that goes through it is gonna be dead soon. Like you're wondering why do I keep making lunch? It just it the repetition is is numbing sometimes if you take insulin or sulfonylureas you are at risk for your blood sugar going too low. You need a safety net when it matters most. Be ready with G voc hypo pen. My daughter carries G voc hypo pen everywhere she goes because it's a ready to use rescue pen for treating very low blood sugar and people with diabetes ages two and above that I trust. Low blood sugar emergencies can happen unexpectedly and they demand quick action. Luckily, G vo Capo pen can be administered in two simple steps even by yourself in certain situations. Show those around you where you storage evoke hypo pen and how to use it. They need to know how to use G vo Capo pen before an emergency situation happens. Learn more about why G voc hypo pan is in Ardens diabetes toolkit at G voc glucagon.com/juicebox. G voc shouldn't be used if you have a tumor in the gland on the top of your kidneys called a pheochromocytoma. Or if you have a tumor in your pancreas called an insulinoma. Visit G voc glucagon.com/risk. For safety information. Far too often we accept the blood glucose meter that someone hands to us, the doctor reaches into a drawer and goes here and take this one. That is that is that the one you want. Is that accurate, you have no way of knowing. But if you want accuracy, and you want to be confident in the blood glucose readings that you're getting from your meter, you want that contour next gen, it's incredibly easy to get the same meter that Arden uses, just go to contour next one.com/juice box, that's all you have to do. The cons are next gen is easy to use, and highly accurate. It features a smart light that provides a simple understanding of your blood glucose levels. And of course, Second Chance sampling technology that can help you to save money with fewer wasted strips, contour next one.com/juicebox. And sometimes

you might not even be aware of the level of either anxiety or burnout that you're feeling. But perhaps you've noticed that you're really irritable, or you're not performing well at work or your relationships are deteriorating. Those are indicators that like you might be feeling the frustration of not wanting to make the lunch for the 7000 a day. Yeah, but you can't quite connect the pieces but then you're screaming at you know your colleagues. Yeah,

no, i By the way, I'm not kidding. I picked the big number on purpose because I'm talking 25 years into it. You're like another egg. Okay, I'll make an egg. What and then you go to put the fork to your mouth. This is my life. As soon as my food gets warm, the dog has to go outside. I personally feel like he's waiting for my food to hit the table. Then he goes, Oh, look how happy that guy looks pretty good bark by the door now. So but with your kids, with your spouse. I mean even especially to when you start settling into the norms. And this is just who I am this is just who you are right? And I'm not a bad guy, you're not a bad lady. But I wish you would do this a little differently. And you wish this about me and we've talked about it and it doesn't change, but it's not a deal breaker. But then there it is, every day, you know what I mean? And, and then you have 1000 things going right in your life. And you see the four things that aren't that I think is what puts you into that space. And then you made such a good point a moment ago, you don't necessarily know you're in that space. Right? Yeah, and I think too, when you're, I was gonna say UNGA. Bissen. But I don't know how much interest we're gonna get out to people here. But like, when you're feeling like, you know, unsteady, it is not your first thought. To look at yourself. It's always you always look at what is happening around you these things, these people, they're making me feel this way. You know what I mean? So

yes, are you right? Yeah, the circumstances, any kind of environmental stressor?

Yeah, I'd be fine. If it if it wasn't for my dog barking when I when I went to eat every day, or if my husband just wouldn't do this all the time like that. But the truth is, is if you fix that thing, you would just move on to the next thing in your head. Right? Yes.

Yes, our brains, our brains are really, they like to hold on to the the negatives and the misses. Yeah, instead of like, we don't fixate on cashed, I really nailed my dinner Bolus.

We don't fixate on that, I'm happy to say here and never tell her it's here. But if she finds that, that's fine with me telling you that my wife has a point system in her head that she doesn't know that she has. And it only works in one direction. So every time I do something unfavorable. I lose a point. But if I were to cure cancer, I would not gain 10 points. It would be well, it's about time he cured cancer. I like like, right. Because it's always felt like it's me. It's not just her by the way. I think it's personal relationships. Like it feels like you start with 100 stars, and you lose one and lose one and lose one. But you don't gain them back ever. Like you never, you know, you never give people their flowers, you just go take them from them. And then to kind of bring this to diabetes, I think that same thing can happen. Like that's why I try pointing out like, hey, there's a lot of good that comes from having type one. I know it's not something you would willfully take type one for. But people are often much better at their own health more in tune with their bodies. You know what I mean? Like, yes, that's a big deal. You don't see that in the aggregate maybe. But as it shakes out over your lifetime, you'll notice it. So I don't know. So what do you think like how do we talk to people about understanding that it's going to be difficult, and that these things that we just talked about are kind of drag you backwards and backwards and backwards. But at the same time, there's a lot of pluses happening. And while your health goals are very important and can't be ignored, they also can't be the reason that you give in? No, no, that's a lot, actually. Yes,

it is. So we have we have the understanding, we all know the chronic illness of this chronic illness that maybe feels different than other chronic illnesses because of the consistent decision making and mindfulness that we have to have around it and I like that word mindfulness instead of like we're having to worry about it oftentimes I hear others talk about like I'm always worried about my numbers. I'm worried about my my daughter's going high my dad I'm just worried worried worried. And what's driving that is there's fear right? There's the anxiety is being driven by fear of the higher the low.

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And even just changing the language from anxiety, like I'm worried, too, I want to be mindful is reminding yourself reminding your mind and your body of like, okay, we do need to be mindful and intentional. But what I don't want is the motivation to be driven by fear. And I will kind of get through I want to do I think it's important to talk about the perfectionism and how that is develops with sorry, go ahead.

Does that stem like, I feel like what I hear you saying is that because there are so many decisions to make, so consistently, that I'm being put into an anxiety inducing situation, every five minutes or every hour or a couple of times a day, even depending on how, you know, well, I have things balance for myself. And so you never really get a chance to what, like go into that. Because I don't have that thing. But my wife talks about it. She said, I talked to my sleep the other night, and I said something very loud. And she described how her adrenaline popped up. And then she couldn't go back to sleep. And I was like, oh my god, like I swear to you, you could bang a garbage can in my bedroom. And I'd be like, what is happening? But that garbage can away? And then I go right back asleep. But that's not that way for everybody. Cuz you hear this all the time, by the way? Yeah. It's a it's a thing in the community that you hear frequently. The idea about like, oh, it's been said that people with type one diabetes make X amount more decisions a day than everybody else. And I've always just thought like, oh, I don't why does that matter? But I think that's because of my personality. I don't think of it that way. But a lot of people can be dragged down by that.

Well, and I think in the beginning, everyone, I sure, regardless of personality, or coping mechanisms are going to experience that level of you know, the nervous system is on kind of flares up and you're in fight or flight like trying to make these decisions. I don't know, is one unit gonna help us too? Is it too much? You know, those types of things. So you're in like the cortisol level is pumping pretty consistently in the beginning. And so what we want to address is over time, how can the cortisol levels be reduced by not only just experience, but also mindset of? Does it have to be an 80 to 120 95% of the time? Because I think people do feel like an end, you know, obviously, I'm not a medical doctor. And the ADA recommends 70 to 180 70% of the time, but there really isn't data yet. or long term CGM used to back that up. But yeah, like that's maybe a good window. It's a

tough world where you need to make a health decision for a mental health decision, because you are trading one for the other at some point, because I mean, listen, you've had diabetes. A long time i Arden's had it now, for my God. She's how long, almost 18 years? Wow, is that true? Yeah, well, I don't want her blood sugar to be 180 didn't mean like, if it is we get it back, and that's fine. And we don't like we don't like cling to it. But honestly, if you take the mental health out of it, and look at the physical health, that is not a thing you want. And so there it is, again, right. Like and you you mentioned the cortisol, the goal is not to like learn to live in it. The goal is to not have it happen, right? Because learning to live in, it just probably just killed me when I'm 50. But I'll be like, people be like, Oh, my God, he was so cool under pressure, but you're not cool under pressure. If you're still feeling it, you're just making good decisions in a bad situation. It makes sense. Yes,

yes. And I often will ask clients who are struggling with this very issue of, you know, feeling like they need to live in his perfect line, or zone or range. But then I said, you know, at what expense, right? Like, is it? Are you living in a heightened state of cortisol pumping, you cannot sleep you cannot function. You're hysterical crying. And I'm not talking about like, the initial grief stages. And that is that is normal. Yeah, in the beginning, it just is and that will subside. But years and years and years of living with this kind of I need to be perfect needs to be perfect, but that is not sustainable. And that's where you get into the burnout phase. Obviously,

I didn't mean earlier to say that I wasn't ever like that. I'm just not like that now, but I the beginning. I was crying like every day for three years. By the way, like a couple of years. I would just in the afternoon. I tell people all the time, my wife would come home and be like, Oh, I didn't have a chance to get a shower. Then I'd get in the shower. So I could cry because nobody can hear me that I'd come out and I'd be like, everything's great. But it was And even on the third day of Arden's diagnosis in the hospital, I recognized what a shift this was going to be like to my, my own personal health. And even I remember saying to my wife, do you think we'll get divorced because of this? Like, just a couple of days, because I was extrapolating it out. Yes. And I was like, oh my god, like, she's not what we thought she was now. Right. So you have to re, like, configure that in your mind, we could kill her with the medication. If we don't get rid of the medication, we could kill her. There's going to be the possibility of long term complications, we won't see them while we're happening. So they'll always be in the back of our head, we're gonna disagree, we're going to argue we're going to be short on sleep, we're going to be all jacked up on cortisol, which isn't a thing I talked about 20 years ago, but you knew you were going to be on edge, you know. And I kept thinking, like, Oh, this is how we're going to get divorced. Because it is a coin flip steal to get divorced, by the way. And then it wasn't six weeks later that the endocrinologist said, the incidence of divorce in America is one and two. But if you have a chronically ill child, it goes to two and three. And I was like, Oh, my goodness. Yeah. So yes.

And when you're in that stressful state, worst case, scenario, thinking can feel real. Like that's like, it's really going to happen.

Yeah. Oh, no, it definitely felt like it was gonna happen. I was like, Well, this is I felt like a self fulfilling prophecy. To me, I was like, Well, this is it, all the cards are out on the table, they all point to this, you know, we're going to flip one over one day, and one of us is going to get pissed about something and say something we can't take back. And that's gonna be the end of it. Like it really is what it felt like. But day to day, that same pressure exists if you're managing type one for a child, or if you're an adult living with it, like, When am I going to experience something that just pushes me over an edge? I don't come back from and I just say to myself off, it may once he's eight, I don't care. You know? Yes.

Well, I think in that sentence, and question, it is the day to day, which is so different from, we used to have this evaluation every three months with the agency, we did not have this data. And I think there is the shift, just like I know, you know, social media and all this instant, you know, news and numbers like feed like you, if you're using that data to determine your sense of like self worth, there's two pieces, right? There's the data determine, am I going low? Or am I having long term complications? And then you can connect it to I'm a terrible person, or I'm a terrible diabetic, or I'm failing my child. And that's the piece. I mean, there are there are the real truth of having lows and long and highs. And that is real. So I'm not dismissing that. But where we're talking is the is the gray area of what is that data? How is that defining you as a human being? I'm

following you completely. Yeah, I know it feels convoluted, but I don't find it to be when you're saying it. You know what I'm is that weird example, ever seen those jumped videos, the scare videos where people like turn a corner and scare a lady and she's like, goes crazy. And then they just do it to her over and over and over again. If you did that, to me, I would punch you, I wouldn't go back and go, I would come forward at you. And so it's personality driven. Like I just had a conversation with someone the other day about their young son 12 years old, a little bit in his hands a little bit in his parents hands, parents, one of the parents has type one diabetes. But the kids they once he was in the AIDS, and then G seven came out, they put the clarity app in with the G seven app, the kids now seeing it sort of like a goal. And he got his a one seen on a six one, the little 12 year old boy, like by himself amazing, right? Because his personality and how he's wired. When you jump scare him, he comes forward. And now you put that same technology in someone's hands, who goes backwards and they go, Oh, look at me. Now I'm being judged every day by my app, this is terrific. And he thought, Oh, this is great. I can battle with this and have a good time like a game. And so you don't know who you are. And again, like we were talking about earlier, as it's happening to you, you can't step out of yourself and go, Oh, I'm just reacting to this wrong. You know, this, this could be really good information for me if I just changed the way I'm perceiving it. And is that right? Yes,

it will. And I would as a practical tip, I would if you are looking at a clarity app or any of the apps that are connected to your your meters, I mean, your your meters, your CGM or your pumps. If you're looking at that constantly and looking at the trends or the percentages, and that is too much data for you. And that is leading you to shame based thinking. I would definitely encourage like Those are great information, maybe could look at your clarity report once a week, like when you get your weekly email or pull back a little bit

weekly, not daily. Don't make yourself like if you if you're feeling shaken up by it, don't keep doing the thing that makes you feel shaken up about it. Correct? Correct. Isn't that great advice for so many things in life that nobody takes that advice? Like, shouldn't I also not pick up my fan? dewlap? Like, you know, right, like, how do you Yeah, sometimes we feed ourselves the exact thing we, we know, we don't need, and I didn't use feed to like invoke food, but maybe there too. And so like, it's very, I don't know, like, I once said to somebody, it feels like you're happier when things are shaken up. And then as I thought about that person, I think, well, that's how they grew up. Like they grew up in a household that was like, always, like, it felt frenetic right and off kilter, and nothing was ever stable. And so when things get good and stable, that person gets uncomfortable, because that's not what that's not where they, they're comfortable, because they didn't grow up like that. There's so many different ways to get you. So I come into your office, because nobody's going to come in and say, Hey, I need therapy. I'm great under pressure, like so like, so someone comes in and says, Hey, look, I've got all this great data. I know, it's valuable for me, but I can't stop looking at it, as you know, condemnation. Is that a self confidence? Like, where do you start with that when you try to help them? So

I would want to understand how are they perceiving themselves in other areas of their lives in their work? Is there are they you, I think, we talked about the different types of perfectionism, there's the self oriented perfectionism, where you have the expectation that you will perform and perfectly in all areas, and then there's the socially prescribed perfectionism where you think others around you are expecting you to be perfect. So I would look at those two factors in other areas of your life. Do you have that in your relationships, in your work? In your own self image body image? Or is it just with diabetes, oftentimes, you might see in other areas, so you'd start there. And then I would want to understand your what is the self talk going on? So if you are feeling like, gosh, I cannot maintain, I cannot stay in range all the time. And therefore I'm telling myself, I'm not good enough. Again, met medical data aside, we wouldn't be necessarily looking at that. But we'd be looking at that to see how was that prescribing who you are? And how much are you listening to that? And where can we find moments for truth, and grace and compassion? In kind of the broader sense,

when I talk to people who are what's the phrase I would use here? realists, right, this is somebody who's not willing to ignore the idea that a 250 blood sugar is bad for me. But they also live in the world where their cortisol has jumped up, and they're having these self doubts, and you know, and all this stuff is happening, they're feeling, you know, they're feeling like everything is a judgment, they're failing that whole thing. So when you feel that way, but you can't let go of the reality of what those numbers mean to your health. That's where I see people get stuck the most. They seem like ping pong balls, like flying back and forth. You know what I mean? Like, I know, I should be kinder to myself, but I'm dying here. But I'm gonna go crazy before I die. Like, like, you don't even like in that. That's, that's the part I feel. When I see people in that space. That's the one I feel the worst for. I think you don't I mean, because yes, because it's not like you're tricking yourself into being upset, you're really upset for a good reason. And the thing that you're trying to avoid, it's real, like so. I mean, it would be no different than if you and I were in this house together. And there was a guy outside with a gun. And I was like, oh, Erica, don't worry about it. You don't I mean, like, and we all feel great for 10 minutes till he came flying through the door with his gun pointed and we're like, oh, you know, we probably should have thought about that. So like, that's how it feels to me, ya know? Yeah.

So if the person with the with the 250. We would want to look at okay, what is yes, we all want to be in range and have, you know, an agency under seven. So we that's like the goal. But what are the behaviors that are leading to the the ups and downs? Are they consistent highs? And is it burnout coming from perfectionism? Is it ambivalence which maybe, I guess we're kind of talking about that right now? But no, we'll get into that. it later and is it or is it not knowing how to to manage? Is it the depression a lot? You know, there's no real motivation. And is that due to the diabetes is it also is it in general depression. And so we would want to kind of suss that out, like what is. And it could be a combination of all of those things. So knowing how to do it, having the motivation, not really caring. And those can be a messy trio, right, and then cycle of all impacting to be feeling like crap physically and emotionally, not knowing how to manage,

right. So from my perspective, as the person who's raised a two year old to a 20 year old, and I've gone from not knowing what I was doing, being incredibly upset all the time having all the feelings that we've described, to slowly figure it out. And now to getting to a point where, honestly, I don't really know what you could ask me about diabetes, where I wouldn't be like, oh, yeah, just do this. Right. Right, like so. And that took a long time. People get to fast forward a little bit, listen to the podcast, because I had to figure it out. So I could come here and talk about it. You guys just get to hear somebody talk about it and go, Oh, okay, I'll do that. You know, and which is, which is terrific. But what I keep thinking while you're talking is maybe you got to fake it till you make it. Like maybe you have to say to yourself, I know one ad is not great. I know, 250 is way higher than I want to be or 300 My God, like, you know, I mean, like, I know all that's true. But I believe that I'm not going to be there one day. And this is part of my learning process. Like while I'm learning, I can't get 100 on every test. So I'll accept the B plus, I'll accept the C minus as this is where I am. But here's where I'm going. And when I get there, I won't see 250 blood sugars anymore. And I really I want to tell you, between you, me and everybody listening, I do not know the last time Martin's budget has been over 250. Like they didn't You mean, like unless there's like a failure of something, or something like that. But day to day making decisions. We just don't see that. You know, I would call 180 A spike like a like a pretty, like, drastic spike for her. But that's because we know what to do we know when to do it. And we do those things. Yes. Now, back in the day. 250 was a Tuesday. Didn't you mean like, I would have been like 250 We're killing it. Like it's not 350. Let's go Yeah, like this is going our way. But but if I could look back and give my my backward looking advice would be that if you're working towards it, and you're getting good information, and you're taking meaningful steps, you will actually get to a point that I've just described. And honestly, the easier you are yourself, the more grace you give yourself in the moment, the more you're able to say, yeah, it didn't go this way today, but I know I'm getting to it. I think the quicker you'll get there, because now you're spending time learning and and moving forward instead of spending time beating yourself up and woe is me. And we're hand wringing and stuff like that. Does that all make sense? Yes.

Because yes, because shame, as we've talked about before, likes to keep you there. Yeah, it does not want it to, to shift. Yeah. So when and, you know, I certainly have fluctuations. And it'll be, you know, whatever number and I will say, oops, like that. That was Miss. Oops, I forgot to Pre-Bolus for dinner tonight because I had 18,000 things going on, right? But I'm gonna I'll catch it up. But that also comes from 34 years of living with it. And knowing how and like all the things, all the factors, right, like protective factors. But I could wear and I certainly have been here in my past, like, oh, my gosh, I'm at this number. I'm in the TOS. And I'm going to this is going to affect me long term. How did I do this I terrible person. And you get stuck there, you almost

become a parasite in your own story. And I don't know if How do I mean that? Oh, there are some parasites that go into animals that rewild rewire the animal's brain to poop on its own food so that other animals will eat the food with the parasite in it so that the parasite can spread itself apart. That's an actual thing.

That's That's so crazy. I can't even I don't even know why you know that. Yeah.

Okay. Well, we all know anybody who's listening now knows why I know this. But so there's a parasite that can go into an animal. It will tell the animal like literally, like crap on the food, because I know other animals will come by and eat the food and then I'll get the spread myself out and go on my journey. You kind of become that in your own life when you have the self doubt hits you. And almost the feeling bad feels normal, like I talked about a minute ago. And so you almost make yourself keep feeling bad. And also, when you're feeling badly about your health, you can do this thing where you like, again, like we talked about earlier, isn't it interesting how this all comes together? And I don't mean for it to, you can point to a doctor and go, it's her fault. She didn't tell me. That doctor I spoke to he could have told me about Pre-Bolus thing, but he didn't. So my blood sugar spice now my fault, therefore, likely my parents fault or Oh, my parents didn't tell me they left me alone too long with it. They didn't stay with me till I figured it out. They stayed with me too long and made me you know, what's the word? When you're now can't help yourself, help us. It's a psychological word that I just lost. It's not going to be important data, they can see me it'll pop, it'll pop up into my head, like 10 minutes after we're done, I'll be gone. But agency agency took away my agency. And so I it was always them doing it's their fault that I don't know how to do it because they were doing it for me. Like no matter what happens to you, that's the thing you're going to blame. That is just such a human thing. Like I mean, you go find a billionaire somewhere right now and be like, Tell me who's screwing you and they're gonna have a list. They're gonna be like, well, here's what's happening to me, like, but I'm like, nothing's happening to you. If a billion dollars, it's all going well, like, like, just try looking at the good things. But we can't do that. Like we never do that. Something's always wrong. It's always something else or someone else's fault. Because that's the only way you can sometimes stop from feeling like this. Like, look what I'm doing. to shame we can we blame? Yeah. Is that Is it a t shirt slogan that I just go to?

Yeah, that's it is it is a common phrase for sure. To avoid

the shame. We can blame we can blame. Nice. I'm putting that on a t shirt. Shirt. Can you imagine you walk into the shoe people like what does that say? And then they start going, Oh, I do that on my butt. But that's the point to is. It's that feeling of like, oh, look what I do. When I feel ashamed. I blame other people. It's not what you do. It's what everyone standing on two feet does. That's the fake it till you make it give it away. Because you know, you're headed in the right direction. Part of it like this is just how people's brains work. Like don't get stuck in this part. And I know that's easier said than done. But that is a clue, though. I mean, you're, you're almost willfully keeping yourself here. And eventually, you know, the secret is, most people get out of it eventually. It's how long you're stuck in it. That is really the thing. I think you have more sway over than you think. Yes. Because you know what I mean, I interview a lot of people. And I enjoy talking to a 65 year old person whose story when they were 15, you would go oh, God, if I heard that story while they were 15. I think this person's done. Like they're never getting out of this. But they do. You know, like, I don't know. I don't know what the answer. Obviously, these are just conversations. I don't think there's a hard and fast answer in any of this. But right.

And I think that the sooner and this might be a lifelong process to realize that blaming is a dead end, and you will get stuck in that. Not that conversely, I want to say well, you should just shame yourself because, like, be read that way, right? Like, well, don't blame others. But shame yourself because shame is not a productive, proactive feeling. But we often get stuck in that and I know as parents to care as caregivers, that can be a very common experience. And particularly when you're managing blood sugar's feeling like you're responsible for your child's health. And so it's naturally, you know, feeling like oh my gosh, I mismanaged their blood sugar. Shame on me, now they're gonna have they're gonna lose their their vision.

Does it have to be shamed as taking responsibility have to be shame? No, no, no. But that's where, where our minds go. Our minds

go. Because who? Because then like a parent would say, or I would say if I if I, you know, I don't my children don't have type one. But if I were to make a mistake, that caused them pain in the moment, it was on me because

there has to be a reason because that's how black and white we are. That's why everyone comes on. And they they're so adamant to tell that diagnosis story because they want to show you where they got diabetes. This wasn't my fault is Coxsackie virus and by the way, that's true, but they need to say it out loud. And they want to tell other Pete Oh, it's about the reason. Like I need a reason. This is not just about diabetes to people need that's why everybody works in, in black and white. That's why the that's why the ambiguity. Ambiguity is not comfortable to people. Is that right? People like an answer. That's why they want to be on a team you If

we want to ascribe ascribe a meaning and a reason behind things and not I mean we, you can get stuck in black and white thinking or all or nothing thinking for sure. And where you want to move out of because oftentimes, it's all bad, or it's all on me when the alternative could also be true. But that's hard, it's hard to retrain your brain. And that's where, you know, trading, retraining your neuro pathways and your thought patterns is really significant and helpful. And you can do that and in therapy.

So to use another example, oh, my God, I see it, okay. So there are some people who will tell you, it's just diabetes, there's nothing you can do about it, it's gonna go up and down, you're a once he's not really in your control, I've given it up to God or whatever like, like saying you want to do and that makes you comfortable that you're not hurting yourself. And then there's the other, there's an opposite side, say, like a very keto diet person who's taken in 10 carbs a day, and they're barely using any insulin, but they have a lot of stability. They know if they if they try to weight from that edge, that they've found their, their comfort in, and they start letting more carbs in, then they're going to have more variability, then they're not going to know what's going on. So they have to defend their their position, you have to defend that position is the right decision. Because look, it works out well, for me, just like the person on the other side can defend that this isn't on me, it's on, it's on something else. And both of them are trying to avoid feeling like it's their fault if something goes wrong. And on the one side, you get to take credit for the decision you've made, I'm going to eat very low carbon doing this thing. And on the other side, you get to take credit for believing in a different power this in charge of you and not yourself. And I'm in the middle here telling people you have to understand what foods impact you how they impact you how to use your insulin, and that uncertainty is uncomfortable for the edges. But there's also a great amount of people who are very comfortable in that I want the knowledge so I can decide. And these are the three different psychological, like, norms that you find around diabetes. Did I just figure all that out while we were talking? Or am I wrong? Am I making sense? Yes,

I think and I think I can almost see you thinking about all of all of the stories. Yeah, that's exactly what all of the comments from the Facebook group and kind of synthesizing

Yeah, I just acted like my own AI from it. I just fed everything, did some research, like data collection, I was like, wait, I know what I'm saying. Because I don't by the way, I don't care. If you eat low carb, I think that's terrific. I don't care if you are like, hey, my a one C seven and a half. And I'm happy and this is the best thing to do. If that's you, then that's terrific. But I'm trying to see the psychological side of it. Because then there's also people who are like, look, sometimes I eat low carb because it's easier. And sometimes my blood sugar gets out of whack. And I say, whatever. And like, I don't think there's anything wrong with any of those three perspectives. But understanding where they're coming from. It's just very interesting. Because I've heard these stories, so many different ways, so many different times. And in the end, it's all about it's just all about humans and how they react to things. And we do fall into buckets, to some degree. And I think specifically about this, these are kind of the three buckets. You know, I have found myself recently, as I'm recording those cold wind episodes, and talking more about like how doctors should talk to patients and stuff like that. Every time I get done one of one of those conversations, I have this like enduring thought, almost like when I get done talking to you, I think, I don't know if this is a thing you can ever make black and white to just tell somebody, like follow these steps and you'll feel better. Like that's what I think I believe in the therapy so much because you need somebody to walk you through it. And while you don't even know you're being walked through it, but to this other thing with a cold wind and you see all these people who like became a nurse or became a doctor and are still delivering substandard care and their understanding is not that and when I get to the end of the conversations, I always think to myself, so it's just it's a human problem. And then everything's a human problem on one level or another right like it's our ability or inability or desire or you know, to work hard at something and make an impact or in some of us are just like look, it's just the job I'm going to show up I'm going to do the thing, and I'm gonna leave I don't I'm not trying to make an impact. And you mix that all together in a soup and you get you get society I should have gone to college I might have enjoyed it

oh gosh. Yes. I mean is it is it. It's human nature. But in going back to kind of these these buckets, it's you know, where do you feel comfortable? Is it is it control? Like we all want to feel like we're in control. And I know we've talked about this before too. look like, but if I don't know how to control and we can't perfectly control diabetes, do we? Can we stay in that gray zone of I'm going to do what kind of works for me, I'm going to make mistakes, and I'm gonna have to move on? Or do I have to live in the rigid? Yeah, like, you know, on the on the rigidity of, it has to be this way. And if it's not, then I'm gonna mess up. And I'm going to feel terrible about myself,

all these different decisions are just different levels of you. Giving your brain and the way it works, the freedom to do what it does, like I don't know if that makes sense or not, like if you if I took a low carb person with a four or five, a one C, and I tried to drag them over to the other side and said, Hey, you're not going to worry if your blood sugar goes to 200. They couldn't make sense of that. Like that would not work for them. It's not how their brain works. If I took that person who said, hey, you know, once in a while it is what it is. And I made them eat low carb forever. They couldn't deal with that. And I think the people in the middle, if you took them to either side would say this is too rigid one way or the other. I need a blend, I need gray. Like, you know, that's so interesting. We should rename this episode, watch Scott, understand everything we all got in our first Psych class in our freshman year of college, as if it was a new idea that the world just found, it really is interesting for me, because I've learned about life. The same way I learned about diabetes, like I didn't ask anybody for help. I didn't go to a class, I just picked my way through it. And I didn't go to college like so as I live. I know there are times I see things. And I'm like, I bet you this was described to somebody and like, you know, their sophomore year Psych class, I'm seeing it like, like a newborn, sometimes. You know what I mean? And maybe that's valuable, because it can be explained to all the other people who didn't end up in college, listening to this. Because once you understand how people think, you stop being mad at them. In any mean, you're just like, oh, this is just who they are. Like, it's and I know, it's a simple thing. And people say all the time, but once you really see it when somebody is doing something, and you don't ascribe like bad actor, like vibes to them, like, Oh, they're doing this on purpose, or she's trying to make me feel this way or something like that, once you realize that's not what's going on, life just gets so much easier. And I wonder if diabetes couldn't be the same way?

It makes sense. Yes, you know, you're making me think of, you know, one of my faves Brene Brown, who did research on and data collection on people's stories. And that's how she came up with the, you know, the concept of vulnerability. I mean, she didn't come up with that concept. But how that is really challenging for people to be vulnerable, based on all of the interviews and research she did, and did data collection based on people's stories, which is what you're doing, you know, through the podcast, and the in the group, I

just have always felt like, I know, there's more to life than I understand. And I like to wonder what it is, if you ask me my favorite thing to do. I know I've said this before, but like, like going out to the end of my understanding and wondering what's beyond it is one of my favorite things to do. And you can't just do it in your head. Because you only know what you know, you have to talk to other people and listen to other people or, and then instead of judging them think where did that come from? Like, you know, and not be upset about it. Like if it came from a bad place or a good place. It's like, whatever this is where it came from. So I love the after dark episodes sometimes to people who are willing to like, come on and say like, Hey, I'm a heroin addict. Here's my story. Be vulnerable. Yeah, yeah. And and let that out there. And if you're willing to, if you're willing to meet that vulnerability with your own kind of openness, then you can you grow from it. Like I actually found myself thinking it's funny, I was thinking about this in the shower this morning. But I didn't know I was thinking about this. I kept wondering how can I pass on my life's experiences to my kids so that they can fast forward a little bit. But I can't think of a way to do it. Because sharing my experience as a story only goes so far, they actually need to go through this too. This is why we progress so slowly. You know, and maybe that's by design or, or necessary. You know what I mean? Like maybe if we kept leaping forward, we wouldn't be able to readjust fast enough. Oh, maybe that's what we're seeing with social media too. Right? Like technology keeps leaping forward and people can't catch up and then we're all anxious because this isn't the soup we're supposed to be swimming in. That's

right. Yeah. You have to do the work yourself. And while yes, it would be so wonderful if we could say here's exactly how to live a balanced life, living with a chronic illness or caregiving for your child with diabetes. Take a walk go outside like you know, everyone knows all those tools. Take a break do deep breathing, be kind to yourself, but it really is slowing down to understand the process that you are undergoing. And doing the work yourself, which is not an easy answer,

right? I almost wonder if it doesn't help you to like, take a large step back and say to yourself, can I really be mad at somebody in 1950, for how they treated women, when that's how it was done. And now that we've moved forward, we see, that's not the way to do that. Like, right, and you can see, like, we've made progress. And I guarantee you that in another 70 years, you'll look back on, you know, 2024, and think, Oh, I can't believe that's what we thought about those things. And then, you know, but then understand that along the way, there were these people's lives that were, you know, finite and shorter, given the grand scheme of things, and that they were stuck in one thinking pattern, and they probably were never gonna get out, or they'd grow a little bit by the time they got to the end. And their growth would rub off on their children a little bit, their children would start slightly ahead of them and grow a little more, and we keep going. And if you can take that idea, and flip it back on your, on your diabetes, then I think that's what I'm saying. I think you're faking it till you make it like you're like, I know, I'm not perfect, but I'm not bad. And I'm trying, and then level up, and then do it again. But don't judge yourself on what happened in 1950. Just go, Okay, three years ago, I didn't know to Pre-Bolus. But I know now. And let's level that up and keep going. And hopefully do that quickly enough that you avoid. You know, I mean, catastrophic, like health concerns, and so on. There's no answer, but that's the answer. It's all in there. Just listen to that over and over again until it makes sense to you. Or go see a therapist. And again, we're gonna call this episode watch Erica, watch Scott. Figure out common ideas. Sometimes when she looks at like, where's Eric and I see each other while we're doing this, it's sometimes I have there's this look on her face that I remember my mom like looking at me like, oh, look, he figured it out.

It's an encouraging expression. Yeah, she's

like dummies getting it. I see it happen. No, I know. You don't think that way?

No, it is. It's it's fun to watch. Yeah, the process.

I can never tell if you're like, I'm glad I have these conversations with him. Or if you think I should get on a podcast or somebody understands more.

No, it's good stuff.

Good. It's excellent. I appreciate doing this with you so much. Like, if I just sat down by myself and tried to think my way through this. I wouldn't get as far as I do as I do when I'm with you. Like I'm actually I'm getting tired. My I'm warm from thinking do you know what I mean by that? Yes. Yeah. Yes. My fingers overheating. It's hard. It was how hard is it not to look at me and think look how thin Scott looks. It's amazing.

You really you really have Yeah, I mean, pretty soon. Not gonna see Yeah. Oh, no,

that's not going to happen. But, but I'm still it's funny. Like talking about how your brain works. Like, I still like I'm focusing at looking at you because if I look at myself, I start going. I don't even look like myself. Again. You can feel like a you can feel yourself drifting away a little bit. And you can go oh, I should have done this sooner. Or how come I didn't figure this out earlier. But you know, to me like, shame, shame pop. Yeah, I feel ashamed immediately, actually. But I have felt that way. But then turned it. Then I just I just turned it on the pharmaceutical industry. I was like, well, they should have come up with that drug faster. But I did say to my wife the other day. Do you ever get sad that this drug didn't exist sooner? Because we're 50. Now like, what if they would have come out with these jell PS when we were 30? Like, would we have had a different life? Like, you know what I mean? Like, it's I'll never know,

do you? Because I'll I asked that about CGM 's and automated insulin.

I bet you do. Right? Yeah. Oh, I had I had that conversation with someone the other day. Guys had diabetes for like 45 years or something like that. And I asked him, Do you ever wonder about what your life would have been like if you were born now instead of that? And he said he tries not to think about it. Yes.

And I think just the question you asked why, why didn't I do this sooner? Of course, as soon as you want it is you're starting to have a healthier mindset of how you view yourself think about others in the world. The old way of thinking shaming still wants to pop back in so it just still was trying to like ah, you should have coulda woulda

as I felt it coming. I got in front of it. Because this isn't my fault. Like, I mean, honestly, Erica, I'm not a doctor, quite obviously. Obviously, I'm not educated it anyway, if you've been listening for the last 15 minutes, the GLP has made a big difference. I must have a GLP deficiency because I have not drastically changed how I eat. I had pizza this week. I just want to tell you I bought a pizza, ate at one night, got up the next day, had it for lunch and then had it for dinner a third day and I lost a pound this week. So like, you know, like, I'm not to say that I eat like that all the time. But this week, I wasn't eating very much. And I didn't have a flavor for anything. And I thought, Well, maybe it's better for that eat something than nothing. So I mean, I got this pizza, not the point. The point is, is that even on a GLP, I'll lose a pound this week, having eaten six slices of pizza spread out over three days, if I would have done that, without the GLP, I easily would have gained four or five pounds. And so it's not a thing I couldn't have. I couldn't have done it, the thing didn't exist. It's so funny how my brain was willing to leap over that truth. Like, this was not a thing you could have done. 20 years ago, Scott, this didn't exist 20 years ago, and I went right to why didn't I do this? Like I let go of all the reasons why to blame myself for a second. And I stopped myself. And I said, this isn't my fault. It's Eli, Lilly's fault for not making stuff down sooner, or whatever. I don't know. And I let it go. But there are people who will they get stuck in that pothole right there? Oh, it's my Yes. Yeah, and why?

Why didn't Why didn't I make this change sooner? Why didn't like even you said the Pre-Bolus thing. I mean, I didn't Pre-Bolus For the first 25 years of my diabetes life. And, but I didn't know. And that's okay. And now and so like, when you as soon as you hear yourself going whitened. I coulda shoulda just say, Okay, where are you right now, in this moment, going back and doing a mindful exercise or doing the grounding that we've talked about, and bringing yourself to the present. And you can say, wow, look where I am today? Yeah, like the journey is right now.

I talked to a guy the other day, who had had diabetes for over four decades. And he told me that in the last handful of years, I taught him to Pre-Bolus his meals.

I honestly might have heard about people's for the first time through the podcast. Yeah, honestly, it's a crazy,

it's such a, it's such a stupid idea. Like, like, like, I used to talk about it like this. I used to say, if I taught you to drive, and you never driven before, and I said, Okay, Eric, as we approach this curve, I only want you to push down on the brake halfway, and then go through the curve. And I said, if you were doing that, and you press down on the brake halfway and saw you were gonna go off the road into a stone, would you just hold the brake down halfway and go, it's what the guy said to do? Or would you push harder and say, I don't want to hit the rock off to the side of a road. But so many times with diabetes, we just go That's what they told us to do. I guess I'll crash. You know what I mean? And then I'll tomorrow I'm gonna get a new car and crash again. And they over and over again. And how much of that is mixed in with, like the godly way we see physicians. So the guy didn't tell me the lady didn't tell me. So it's obviously not a reason or a rule. So I'll just keep doing what they said over and over again. It's fascinating. It really is like, how do you not say to yourself, I give myself insulin at noon, I eat at noon, my blood sugar goes up. What if I gave it to myself? Five minutes before that, or 10 minutes before though? What would have happened? Again, that's me. If you jump scare me, I'm gonna punch you in the face. Like so when I saw the thing happening with the blood sugar's I was like, that's not right. Like, I always think that I always, by the way, I always think that's not right. And they don't know. But that's just, but that's an abundance of, I would call it self confidence. Yeah, I'm sure somebody else would call it narcissism. That's between me and my therapist. And, but, but I trust myself more than other people. But I also had to count on myself growing. And I had some wins along the way. So I had a reason to trust myself. I've made decisions in the past before that have gone well. So I think well, I'll try it again. I bought it worked out the last time. Let me see what Scott brain thinks this time. You don't I mean?

Yeah. I wonder I'm sure. I know. We're totally now in a different topic, but not really. But with the the Pre-Bolus concept. I'm sure you and Jenny have talked about this before. Did did the Pre-Bolus. I mean, I used to Pre-Bolus with regular insulin. And it was like third way to give her injection 30 minutes before we ate. But then when we transitioned to cue melodic fast acting,

Jenny blames the naming.

Yeah. Is that what it is? Because I feel like then I got the concept just left. Yeah,

they told us it was fast acting insulin. We stopped talking about the timing of the insulin. Yes, yeah. Okay. And you're old enough to remember that. Yeah. It's just a naming. Again, that's a that's a human mistake. It really is. Like when you listen to that Grand Rounds series that she and I are making. Everything that a doctor does that throws you on the wrong path is is usually a communication error. Just not knowing how to talk about things and see the implications of the words you're using. Super simple. I mean, nobody knows how to talk. So it's not super simple. Yeah, diagnosing it is simple. Like I see what's happening. I don't know how to get somebody to fix it. I also don't know how you It's funny because a scientist called it fast acting insulin, or faster acting insulin,

because it was faster than that regular. Yeah, yeah. But again,

a person who you should not put in charge of artistic endeavors. Like you don't you mean, like you don't ask a structural engineer to write a poem, because their brain doesn't work that way. So you should get the structural engineer to build the bridge, and then have an artist come in and call it something. Yeah, right. And because they know how to talk to people, and I know how to talk to people I don't like and I have enough understanding of diabetes, that I can take that understanding and put it into words that you can hear and pick up and use somewhere else. I think that's my whole value to this is that I had to teach myself diabetes because I couldn't let my daughter be unwell. And I'm a good storyteller. Like, I know how to talk. And it's not on purpose. Like I swear to you, here, I'm going to tell everybody something that will let them go. I sent you four topics. And I said, ladies choice. That was the extent of our preparation for today. Okay. And then you texted me a half an hour before going, Oh, I forgot to tell you, this is the thing I chose. I didn't read what you sent me. So when we popped on and started talking about it, as you hear me warming up in the first couple of minutes, it's the first time I've considered this today. So and then I start accessing all the stories I've heard on the podcast, and then trying to work my way through it. That's all you're hearing is, that's what you just heard for the last hour and Erica artfully pointing me at the truth about how people's minds work to keep me on that path, which is I'm assuming what you? Yeah. Which was, I'm assuming what you would do if you were my therapist, this you would keep going, Hey, look up, dummy. Keep walking in this direction. You only go back to the theme and the goal right now it's beautiful. Anyway, if anybody heard this and doesn't believe in therapy, they you're not paying attention. Erica forsyth.com. What are your states that you can help people remotely? California?

Oregon, Utah, Florida and Vermont. Oh, Vermont. Sticking? Yes. Vermont sticking nicer now? Yes. Good. Good. Good. And

if you live local to Erica, she will tell you where she's at. And you can sit with her and do this.

Yes, I'm leaving office in Pasadena in person, but also virtual as well. Again,

Erica forsyth.com. If you don't see what she did this hour with me and think that could help me to again, I don't think you're paying attention because I couldn't have put these thoughts together without you today.

So Wow. Thank you, Scott. Seriously, nice compliment.

Oh, hurricane. You know, I've had a couple of therapists on here before I landed on you. You're the right one. Don't you worry. I saw what was going on. I paid attention. I was like, yeah, good conversation, but not right for me. And then I pick through and I was like, Erica works for me. And you know, the big, I'll let you go. But the first reason that I thought that about you is that if I tried to generalize you wouldn't let me when we were first together. Like I would try to generalize think to be entertaining, and you'd be like, No, I was like, Oh, she pushed it back for we're trying to have fun here. And then I was like, Oh, I remember. I was like, she'll be good to talk to you about this stuff. So anyway, I love you. So thank you very much. Oh,

thanks, God. I appreciate that. Bye. Oh, gosh.

There you go. That's perfectly a blessing. Don't please. I want to thank the ever since CGM for sponsoring this episode of The Juicebox Podcast. Learn more about its implantable sensor, smart transmitter and terrific mobile application at ever since cgm.com/juicebox. Get the only implantable sensor for long term wear get ever since. A huge thanks to the contour next gen blood glucose meter for sponsoring this episode of The Juicebox Podcast. Learn more and get started today at contour next one.com/juice box. A huge thank you to one of today's sponsors, G voc glucagon, find out more about Chico Capo pen at G voc glucagon.com Ford slash juicebox. you spell that GVOKEGLUC AG o n.com. Forward slash juicebox. If you're not already subscribed or following in your favorite audio app, please take the time now to do that. It really helps the show and get those automatic downloads set up so you never miss an episode. Thank you so much for listening. I'll be back very soon with another episode of The Juicebox Podcast. The diabetes variable series from the Juicebox Podcast goes over all the little things that affect your diabetes that you might not think about true Travel and exercise the hydration and even trampolines. juicebox podcast.com Go up in the menu and click on diabetes variables. Lots of people with autoimmune seem to have trouble with their thyroid. And that's why I've made the defining thyroid series juicebox podcast.com Click on defining thyroid the menu to find out more. The episode you just heard was professionally edited by wrong way recording. Wrong way recording.com

Hello friends and welcome to episode 1196 of the Juicebox Podcast. Helped me welcome back Erica Forsythe today Erica and I are going to discuss ambivalence and motivation. If you're interested in learning more about Erica you can find her at Erica forsythe.com. US residents who are type ones themselves or the caregivers of type ones have an unique opportunity to help move type one diabetes research forward without leaving their home. Take the survey and completed AT T one D exchange.org/juicebox. This 10 minute survey will do just that it will help move type one diabetes research forward. All you have to do is answer simple questions you will know the answers to these questions. And just like that you've helped T one D exchange.org/juice box. Don't forget to save 40% off of your entire order at cozy earth.com. All you have to do is use the offer code juice box at checkout that's juice box at checkout to save 40% at cosy earth.com When you place your first order for ag one with my link, you'll get five free travel packs and a free year supply of vitamin D. Drink ag one.com/juice box registration is now open for the big live in person touch by type one event I will be speaking there in Orlando touched by type one.org. Go to the Programs tab and get your free tickets right now touched by type one.org. I'll see you in Orlando. This episode of The Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by Dexcom dexcom.com/juice box get the brand new Dexcom G seven with my link and get started today. Today's episode is sponsored by Medtronic diabetes, a company that's bringing people together to redefine what it means to live with diabetes. Later in this episode, I'll be speaking with Jalen, he was diagnosed with type one diabetes at 14. He's 29. Now he's going to tell you a little bit about his story. And then later at the end of this episode, you can hear my entire conversation with Jalen to hear more stories with Medtronic champions. Go to Medtronic diabetes.com/juice box or search the hashtag Medtronic champion on your favorite social media platform. Eric, Hey, welcome back.

Thank you, it's good to be back.

We're gonna do something that we kind of talked about in your last episode towards the end. Today we're going to talk about ambivalence. Yes. And you have some like clear thoughts about how to walk through it, I'm going to let you take the lead on this.

Okay, sounds good. So I was thinking it would be helpful for us just to spend a minute or two in the beginning to define what is ambivalence? Because we might hear the word we might know the word and have some basic understanding. And sometimes I know even I will think ambivalence means that you just don't care. Or you don't know how, but it really means that you have contradictory or mixed feelings about it. I even looked at Webster definition. It's simultaneous and contradictory attitudes or feelings, such as attraction and repulsion toward an object person or action. And the second definition, uncertainty as to which approach to follow. So you might have ambivalence about goals. You might have ambivalence towards a person towards marriage or in through our lens today, you know, ambivalence towards your your diabetes management. But certainly we can apply some of these themes and tools towards anything you might feel ambivalent towards. Well, it's

interesting, because I actually think I think of the word as meaning I don't care one way or the other. Yes. Which, yeah, which is not really what you're what I'm saying here at all. Oh, that's interesting. The boards get co opted sometimes. You know, that's interesting. So simultaneously, and contradictory attitudes or feelings, simultaneous and contradictory attitudes are feeling so I feel one way and another way about the same thing. I'm ambivalent. Oh, wow. Yeah, I do misunderstand that word. Did you think that week did you like, like, I know, you understood what ambivalent meant. But do you think other people might be confused as well? Well, I

even as I was thinking and preparing for our this episode today, I didn't add in the definition until about 10 minutes before we started talking because I thought, You know what, I really want to understand the exact definition because I often think about like you're torn, which leads to either you're stagnant or you're blocked, and you don't really care enough to make a move, but it really is. because of these two contradictory feelings or thoughts that are happening exactly at the same time, so you're feeling torn, and

then stock sort of sticks you in the middle, and you don't move one way or the other. Okay? All right, diabetes management ambivalence. What is this here that you're, that

you're so I hear this, I have certainly felt this way in my diabetes life time, and I hear it frequently. I know, I should fill in the blank Pre-Bolus, inject, take my blood sugar, watch my data, look at my data more frequently. But I just can't or I don't want to and I don't know why often is the kind of that the end piece. So there, people might present with this. Exactly, simultaneous and contradictory attitudes or feelings of like, I know, I should. And I know all the reasons why I should, but I just can't or I don't want to, or it's hard to meet for me to remember and I don't really understand why this

is happening. I know from the outside people can take that as they don't care. Do you think that that feeling can confuse you into believing you don't care when you do? Yes.

Okay. Yes. Because you often you're so confused in these these, you know, contradictory feelings. You're like, well, maybe maybe I guess I just I don't care enough. Or I don't know how enough or I don't feel like it's important enough. So I guess I'm just going to stay here in this place. And this happens a lot when people are trying to think about job changes. I know what I know, I this is good enough. But I know I could do more. Like, gosh, that feels scary. And then you might feel stuck in that ambivalence spot where you're feeling content where you are, but also have that like hunger to for more, or you want to do something different.

This is boiled down to simplicity to like, picking up my clothes or folding my laundry or like that, like, I know I should I want to in my heart. I know that. It's something I should not just I should be doing. But it's a thing. I don't know how to explain this. It's a thing that I know I am, right. I'm a person whose clothing is put away, but I'm not going to do it. And it's not because I have more pressing matters. I'm just going to ignore it. So can that go all the way down to something small like that? This episode is sponsored by Medtronic. diabetes, Medtronic diabetes.com/juice box. And now we're going to hear from Medtronic champion. Jalen. I

was going straight into high school. So it was a summer heading into high school was that particularly difficult, unimaginable, you know, I missed my entire summer. So I went to I was going to a brand new school, I was around a bunch of new people that I had not been going to school with. So it was hard trying to balance that while also explaining to people what type one diabetes was. My hometown did not have an endocrinologist. So I was traveling over an hour to the nearest endocrinologist for children. So you know, I outside of that I didn't have any type of support in my hometown.

Did you try to explain to people or did you find it easier just to stay private?

I honestly I just held back I didn't really like talking about it. It was just it felt like it was just an repeating record where I was saying things and people weren't understanding it. And I also was still in the process of learning it. So I just kept it to myself didn't really talk about it. Did

you eventually find people in real life that you could confide in. I

never really got the experience until after getting to college. And then once I graduated college, it's all I see. You know, you can easily search Medtronic champions. You see people that pop up and you're like, wow, look at all this content. And I think that's something that motivates me started embracing more. You know how I live with type one diabetes. To

hear Jay Allen's entire conversation stay till the very end. Medtronic diabetes.com/juice box to hear more stories from the Medtronic champion community. Today's episode of the podcast is sponsored by Dexcom. And I'd like to take this opportunity to tell you a little bit about the continuous glucose monitor that my daughter wears the Dexcom G seven, the Dexcom G seven is small. It is accurate and it is easy to use. And where Arden has been wearing a Dexcom G seven since almost day one of when they came out and she's having a fantastic experience with it. We love the G six but man is the G seven small the profile so much closer to your body, the weight, you can't really feel it and that's coming from me. And I've worn one. I've worn a G six. I've worn a g7 I found both of the experiences to be lovely. But my gosh is that g7 Tiny and the accuracy has been fantastic. Arden's a onesies are right where we expect them to be. And we actually use the Dexcom clarity app to keep track of those things. That app is built right in to Arden's Dexcom G seven app on her phone iPhone? Oh, did you not know about that? You can use an iPhone or an Android device to see your Dexcom data. If you have a compatible phone, your Dexcom goes right to the Dexcom. app. You don't have to carry the receiver. But if you don't want to use the phone, that's fine. Use the Dexcom. receiver, it's up to you. Choice is yours with Dexcom dexcom.com/juicebox.

Yes, you got me with the laundry, I know I should do fold the laundry. It would look better. And I would feel better about this space. But I just don't feel like it. Or I just am too tired. Or I'd rather do X, Y or Z. Yes.

So you just let it go. But it doesn't, but you don't really let it go. You don't let it go to the point where it doesn't bother you anymore. You just don't do it. Or ask or think it or say it or whatever it is you have to accomplish. But it's still gnaws at you. Yeah, yes, yes. Oh, that's just it's very interesting, like, so go through your list here about how a person becomes ambivalent.

Okay. Right. So I think that's when you arrive, you're you might not even know that you're in an ambivalent plays if it's if it's a larger life choice or with diabetes. But even you know, with our like, you know, house work skills, you might know that you're feeling ambivalent, because you're like, Yeah, I should, but I don't want to. And so we want, I think it's important as like, how do you get there? And can you start out feeling ambivalent from the get go? And I was thinking about that through the lens of your diabetes? And I think it really depends on the age at which you're diagnosed. A stage of life. Are you the caregiver and what's going on in your life? Are you the person living with it? And then can you be go through seasons of ambivalence? Which I have seen all of those things, but so I think it's really important to understand that like, maybe your your five year old, is diagnosed, and is doing just fine. And managing well. And then oftentimes, I know we've talked about this a lot. In their teenage years, they might come across, probably most likely ambivalent, but you as the caregiver, or the onlooker might say, I just don't care enough. Yeah, or they're

not trying. Mm hmm. That's the other thing I hear people say, my kid doesn't try. I'm like, Oh, that's a weird way to think about it. You know what I mean? I just talked to somebody today, who's got a five year old, you said five year old have made it jumping in my head. And she said that, you know, if my five year old is with a cousin, and that cousin hands him a cookie, he is putting that cookie in his mouth and eating it. And he is not going to come to me and say, Hey, I just need a cookie. I need insulin, like he's not going to happen. And I feel like she said, I don't know how to make him care about that. But I don't know, I don't think it's care or not care. I definitely after talking to so many people, I definitely don't think it's because they don't care. I think everybody cares about their own health. They just find different levels of ability to follow through, or I guess different levels of less ambivalence, enough to hold them back or not. Because I've been ambivalent about things that I've done. Like, right, like, I'm like, I wish I should do this, or I should do that. I'm just I don't know what to do. I'm just gonna do it. You just kind of press through it, right? You just go do the thing. But and I've also had a situation where I've, it's frozen me, and I've done nothing, right. But why? Why does it feel like they don't care? Because I clearly cared. I had that at the dentist. Right? The dentist gave me these little trays and said, Put this glue in the tray and put the put them on and wear them once a day for 10 minutes. I mean, it just it probably couldn't be any simpler. I just don't do it. And then I'll go back to him. And I'll go, are you using the trays and I go? No. And I'm not a liar. Like we're I think a lot of you all listen, you're lying to your dentist, for example. But like not me, I just go nope, don't know why I can't bring myself to do it. And then there's poor outcomes because of it. Like I have to have other cleanings done because of it. And Ha, all right. And I'm plenty mode. I'm an active person. I'm up early, I'm awake 18 hours a day, I am accomplishing things constantly. I have some downtime. I could easily do those things. And I just won't. I know I'm not going to by the way. Why have I resolved myself to the fact that I'm not going to.

That's interesting. So then I would wonder, Is that ambivalence because you don't have you're not thinking through like it's it's important enough to you do you have the desire to do it. It's our competence. How to do it. Is it denial? You know, like, Ah, I don't really cuz sometimes we get that confused as we were talking about already, like is denial ambivalence? Like it's not really an issue. But I would say denial maybe comes before ambivalence. I'm thinking about that. Yeah,

I'm consciously yes to all those questions. So I don't I can't explain it to you. Because I know it's important. I know there. There are reasons why I have to do it. I know there's a, you know, something bad that happens to me if I don't do it. I'm not denying business. I just don't do it. I don't know. Is it possible I forget every day? Because I look at it. And I always think, Oh, I'll do that later. And I just never do. Never. I am before you and I started talking my definition of ambivalence about this. Yeah.

I wrote, well, maybe we can come back to this. Yeah. Okay.

I really don't care one way or the other. So okay. Yeah, I do. But I don't not enough to. Ah, that's interesting. Okay, keep going. I'm

sorry. I'm gonna I'm gonna hold that hold the hold that thought held that? Yeah. So I think it's important to note, as we are talking about ambivalence, and if you are listening, and you are feeling ambivalent about your management, or you're worried about your child's, I think we really want to acknowledge this is part of a process and someone's relationship with diabetes with themselves, to acknowledge it without judgment to acknowledge that obviously, if you're acting ambivalently, towards your management for your lifetime, there will be you know, complications, consequences, but if it in a season, temporarily, I don't even want to give a time frame to that. But whatever it is to say, Okay, this is happening. And this is part of the process. And now we know, and then identifying that you're ambivalent is part of that process. And then working through and we'll we'll share some some tools and how to work through the ambivalence, but to not judge it and criticize it, but to say, Okay, I'm here, just like we just did with the, the tooth tray, okay. You're acknowledging it? Oh, I'm

fully aware. And I'm, I'm happy to acknowledge it. I just, I have no answer for it whatsoever, you're gonna help me find an answer. Is that what you're saying? Well,

but we'll see. Well, hopefully, all right,

well, let me sit back and I'm sitting back. I feel like I'm on your sofa. Now. You're gonna you're gonna help me get through this. All right. So, okay, do you want to like talk about it in, in like, more specific terms like Pre-Bolus Singh as an example, do you want to stick to like that idea as you go through this? Or do you don't think it's necessary?

Yeah, we can do that. But yes. So sorry, were you gonna say something or you're really sitting back?

Okay, literally sitting back, I'm letting you do this. I want to say, Okay.

Okay. So if we're thinking about Pre-Bolus thing, and you're ambivalent, or even just doing the very basics of, of management of actually bolusing. or injecting when you're eating something, or correcting after hours of high or ignoring it. So if you're feeling ambivalent or your your child is in Veblen, in that stage, I think it's really important to also consider what else is going on in your life, maybe you already have some pre existing generalized anxiety, maybe there's also depression, maybe there's unresolved grief towards the diabetes, right? Maybe you're, you're so angry, and sad and disappointed and scared that it feels easier to ignore it. But I think deep down as we were talking about, even if you're refusing to believe you have diabetes, or and saying I don't really care, it's not going to complications aren't going to happen to me. I really do believe that deep down, there are some fears or convictions that things you know, it's it's reality. There are complications are reality. And so when you're in that ambivalent stage, like I know, I should inject or correct, but I'm feeling all of these other things. And I'm really scared about what might happen. But I just can't do it. Like that. Right in that moment, and you're might not even be aware of it or your child might not be aware of it or teen, right. Where you're feeling those two things. Okay. So you're ambivalent, you say you don't care, but you know that they're there. And none of that wants to drive and I'm not saying that's the only the only driving force to Pre-Bolus or inject but I'm talking about like these two extreme thoughts or feelings or attitudes. Okay. Other I think it's really important to also consider you might be trying really hard to get your diabetes supplies or get good insurance for your, for the supplies. So maybe you have Have I really well, I want to take care of my diabetes. But gosh, it's really hard to get my insulin right now or Gosh, it's really hard to, to get my insurance to cover my CGM or my, my pump. And all of and then the other, I think the other really important factor to consider. You might say, Gosh, I really I know I should take care of it. But I feel so alone in this. So these are all these kind of conflicting, simultaneous, but contradictory feelings like I know I should, but this is really hard, or I feel so alone. You might feel totally out of control in your life, not only with diabetes, but all other areas. These are all factors that could play into which mate might look like on the outside to people as denial, refusal, just resisting resistant to treatment, is

that the what is the ambivalence doing to me? That makes that turns into inaction.

So what is ambivalence doing so you then? And that's getting that? Yep, yeah.

Or is that a thing you're gonna get to? Should

I ask that again? Is that again, that's good.

I mean, the idea here is, is that I have I have contradictory thoughts, right? I know, I should do this thing, but I'm not going to do it. But I really can't tell you why I'm not going to do it. But I didn't I don't do anything. Like I just sit there, right. And it's not even that I don't let it go. I hear people all the time, say, Oh, I'm a bit what do people have to say I'm a bad diabetic, I don't do this. I don't do that. Like, bah, bah, bah, like, do something or just commit to being bad at it just be like, hey, you know what, on the show, and like, just but no, we always sit in that space going, I know what I should be doing. I do want to do it. But there's never a more, there's never a like, I'll do it after I clean my room. I'll do it after I get a new job. It's just we just don't do anything. It's the inaction that it feels like it's the it feels like it's the the disease of of ambivalence to me. Does that make sense? Yes. Okay. So.

So we kind of understand what ambivalence is we understand what it looks like. And oftentimes, people describe it as their if they feel under constant pressure. And so you might present in all different ways, sad, irritable, kind of neutral, like, whatever, it's fine, you're exhausted. But until you might have these internal pressures of like, oh, my gosh, I know, I need to do this. And then you might also experience the external pressures. But what, what we kind of the the crux of it is, what is preventing you from making change? And that's where we look at okay, is do you have? Are you stuck in the mixed feelings about the change for various reasons, including confidence? Do you have confidence in your ability to make the change? And is that what does that look like? Does that mean that you have the support system? Does it mean you know how to do it? Like, maybe it's like, I know, I should do X, Y, or Z with my diabetes, but I really don't know how. And this was, I was told by this by my doctor, but now it's not working. And that's something that you always talk about is like, is it?

Yeah, so I'll just sit here and wait till the answer comes, and then I'll do it. But then the answer never comes. Because you're not out there consciously looking for the answer. You just think I don't have the confidence, which means tools or know how, yes to do something. I'll wait until that comes to me. But it doesn't some people go look for it. But they're not it but then the ambivalence isn't holding them back. Then they have those people don't have the confidence and say, Okay, I'm gonna go find the confidence somewhere. When it gets you, you really do just sit there. You sit there, like in the middle of the desert, waiting for someone to bring you a glass of water, really like you're like, oh, it's all either die here, or someone will come along and help me, but I'm not going to get up and keep walking. That's interesting. Yes. Okay.

Yes. So then the confidence piece, it's then we ask, okay, if your confidence is is low in yourself, to either find or learn the ability to change, then I would encourage you to look at okay, are you stuck because of depression? Are you stuck because of the unresolved grief? Are you stuck because of fear and anxiety around? What if you make a mistake? What is your self talk like? What is your sense of security and belief in yourself? The basic is Do you have confidence in yourself? Or do you doubt your ability to change and that and then that goes back to the education tools? reaching out for help but

is it definitely one of those things? Is it not possible I'm just lazy, or there is a psychological function that's holding me in that spot right? In

this enigma diabetes example, I would say yes, okay, yes. Because every human I think, for the most part wants to be to live and interact in life. Yeah.

Okay.

Yes.

Is there a clinical explanation for I just don't care, but I'm not depressed. I'm not this. I'm not I'm not. I'm none of those things you just listed. I just am not going to do this. But there's not there's a reason why you're having that reaction.

I would argue that, because if you're saying you just don't care, and you know, you've been educated about, okay, you need to take insulin, or else X, Y, or Z is going to happen, then I would argue, yes, there's some there's something underlying there that needs to be addressed. Processed. Okay. Yes.

I mean, I believe that too, by the way, like, yeah, just I mean, with looking at other people in my life, myself, and other times that I've seen somebody say, I just don't care. As they're saying it, you go, Oh, you totally care. And this is why you care. And you're saying, I don't care. I see. You see it all the time. I don't care what people think about me. Ever see, people say that, like I say what I want, I don't care what people think about me? Yes, you do. Stop it. Like Like, right? Like, of course you care what people think of you. And if you don't care what they think of you specifically, you still care about who you are. So like, don't act like you don't care, you care. You just can't you're not willing to stop doing the thing you're doing. Because that's Oh, because that thing is somehow masking something else for you. Right? Like if I take it out of diabetes for a second when somebody acts all like bombastic maybe I'm gonna sit back up when somebody acts all bombastic, maybe, and I don't care what people think of me, you're protecting something, you're putting a shield up about something. Right? So if I don't want to Pre-Bolus It's because I don't feel like I have the mental space. I don't feel like I have the knowledge, the energy, I don't want to screw it up. I don't want to take responsibility for this. Because if this goes wrong, it's my fault. And if I just sit here and act like diabetes is just happening to me, and there's nothing I can do about it, then if I get sicker, or if something happens to me, I don't have to shoulder the blame for this. You think that might be it? That

can be definitely I wouldn't say that's always the case. Right? That path, but that makes certainly, yes. Okay.

For whatever your thing is, when you're listening, because you certainly grew up one way or another and have a thing to whoever's listening, right? Yes,

absolutely. And, and so I think if it's, the ambivalence is high, you're stuck in between these, these mixed feelings about the change, your confidence is low. And you kind of doubt your ability to implement the change. The other two factors that we would look at, to understand why why are you having challenges making changes is the desire if your desire is low, and you're uncertain about whether you even want to make the change, right like that, you have to have that desire to make the change. So there's, yeah, go ahead.

I was just thinking about how often I hear people say, my a one C, seven and a half, it's good. And they'll say, I know it can be lower, but I'm okay with it like this. I always think that's strange. But maybe this makes it feel less strange to me. I always think it's strange. Because if your heart was supposed to beat a certain amount of times per minute, but it be I don't know, it'd be 10 fewer times are 10 more times, I'm okay with it. I don't know what that means. That might be why you hear so many people try to get the answer to what's the real benefit of anyone seeing the success? Because if there's no benefit for it, then I don't have to, oh, then I don't have to worry about the fact that I'm not working towards it. If sevens fine, and six is no different than seven. That's why they're always asking for studies show me a study that says that six is better than seven. And my answer is always look, I don't know, if you don't have diabetes, you're able to season the high fours. So like, I mean, that's more more sounds like more sugar in your blood. That all sounds less advantageous to me. But they want to be told it's okay. And if it's not okay, then I'll work towards it. So that's the desire part. Like I almost feel like the ADA is in charge of the desire. Does that make sense?

Well, yes. And I also want to just put the caveat out, though, that if you're in the sevens, and I know you're not

putting this out there, but no, I'm not denigrating a seven it's Yeah. Well, for

people who are like newly diagnosed at whatever stage, I just want to give a shout out. You're doing a great job. Yeah. No, 100 But I hear I hear like your question, right.

Yeah. My question is, like, I'm not saying but he's doing a bad job, but they're doing a seven and a half. I'm talking about a person that has diabetes forever. could do a six if they wanted to, and they're like Yeah, I mean, because I've talked to those people, like, I'm good where I'm at. I'm like, okay, but you mean, you know, you could Pre-Bolus or, you know, stay on top of your basil a little bit or something like that. And duel. Another point last, and they're like, Yeah, I don't want to put the effort into it. I don't know, it's, it's odd to me. But I understand that a lot of people feel that way. And I wouldn't come down on it for it. It just strikes me as strange when it happens. Okay,

and if they're, if they're healthy and doing fine, probably have all the like, you know, no complications, all those things. But then maybe if there are these other factors that you could ask, if they wanted to change, then what? What's the is it important to them as the last piece? Yeah,

it feels to me like saying I only smoked two cigarettes a day. That's what it feels like to me. Like, I'm like, Yeah, I only smoked two a day, that's not gonna give me lung cancer, probably, like, so I'll be alright. And if I die in my mid 70s, that's where I was supposed to die anyway, so it's good. And if I said, Hey, don't don't smoke the two cigarettes live to your ad. They go up there. And I'm like, okay, like, I don't I don't disagree, if help with how people feel ever. It's just that to me, is the conversation that's not happening and happening at the same time. But I'm trying to figure out like, is my desire low or high? Is that personality driven? Is it a thought someone put into your head one day? Is it just how you're wired? Do you know what I mean? Like I don't like because the desire is lower and stable, is better? I don't know what more desire you need than that. Unless you don't? I don't know unless you don't prioritize it. I don't want to say care, but don't prioritize it over other things. Is it just bandwidth? Maybe

I was Yeah, I was trying to think of an example of you know, you have a desire to have stable and low blood sugars, as as I do, but are in as I'm thinking of any client or human with type one, they also have maybe desires to do well at their job, or be solid parents, or interact with the community or serve in this way. And so perhaps the desire is to do the best you can and if that's and maybe yet maybe it's I think, like, is it a bandwidth question? Like the desires do the best you can and it's, you're having stable enough blood sugar's and your agency is in the range of ADA. And you're also excelling and all these other things. Maybe that's enough. That's part of it. Yeah.

I mean, I desire to have a six pack, but not enough to do a setup. So like, right, like, is that kind of the same thing? Really? Right. Like, I know, that would be better for me. I know, I would like that more. I know, it'd be healthier. But I don't have the time to do something like that, or the desire. It's interesting. It just doesn't mean enough to me, for whatever reason, or use, is there a way to make me exercise more? Like to change my desire?

Well through I mean, yes, I want I want to get to me, you know, working, practicing the motivational interviewing, which is a tactic that therapists can use to help a client understand what you're looking for is their change, talk, what was interrupting or preventing change. And so we can do that in a minute. I just wanted to emphasize like, the fourth thing to think about is the importance of the change, okay, is is the importance if the importance is low, and the benefits of change, and the disadvantages of the current situation are unclear. Right? So you have this. I know there are these benefits if I change if I make these changes, but currently, the disadvantages of my current situation like there's not real clarity in those two things. So why would that be important to you to make a change?

So this is real world, what happens when women with type one, for example, decide they want to have a baby? And then suddenly, the importance ramps up and so now they can keep the right one seeing the fives. Yes, yeah.

I am a testimony to that for sure. Okay. hercus, like, yeah,

I was writing I was writing to seven Well, I thought I was gonna have a kid. And so but yeah, so that's see I'm trying to I mean, I know you know this but I'm trying to piece together the conversations I've had into this conversation like because I think there's a lot of value in remembering what all these people have said on the podcast over and over again. It's not my I want to be clear to people. This isn't me just like reaching out like s and being like, oh, maybe it means this. Like I mean, I've heard a lot of people say these things. So the importance and then For men, a lot of times you see that it's after the baby comes. And they have that. They have that feeling of like, it's my job to make sure we all stay alive. I can't do that if I'm not alive. And that happens outside of diabetes, right? You see a lot of people like kick recreational drugs or drinking or like, childish, like endeavors in general. I sold my motorcycle because I have a kid now like that kind of stuff. Oh, too. This is all the same thing. Just we have we see it more because diabetes presents us with these problems more frequently than other people.

Yes, yeah, you're forced to be making these decisions right all the time.

So these are just human problems. These are things that happen to everybody all day long. This could be cleaning up your dishes, this could be doing your job Pre-Bolus thing taking care of yourself, making sure you're not going to get hurt. Like all it's all just the same thing. We're just Oh, that's a really interesting. Okay, I'm sorry. Let's move on.

Yes, no, it's good. Yeah. So how so we kind of understand, we're just kind of talking about what is ambivalence look like? Why does it happen? Why sometimes does it happen? And what now? What can we do about it? And so how does one become motivated to make change? And that is certainly just like, ambivalence is a process. Becoming motivated is a process. And as I mentioned, and I'm sure some of you have heard about motivational interviewing, which is a an orientation that therapists can use in therapy. And one of the tools that is really commonly used are called Scaling questions. And most, you might think of scaling as like, when you go to the doctor, what's your pain level, you know, zero to 10. Sometimes therapists might ask, like, what's your anxiety level, or level of depression? Mi uses it in a really interesting way to pull out the change talk. And so I thought, if we wanted to do you could make up an example, you could use one thing you've already mentioned, or make up something random, about something that you have felt ambivalent about, that you're wanting to change, but you've been feeling ambivalent about. Okay.

Well, I think I would, I guess, endeavor to like, actually help myself with this. Let's go with exercise. Like, movement. So

movement, okay.

I'll go with that. Okay,

exercise slash movement. Okay, I'll just say instead of saying slash, you want me to use movement or exercise? Yeah,

same movement, movement. Okay. It makes me so a giggle because I think.

Okay, so how important is movement for you, on a scale of zero to 10, with zero being not important at all, and 10 being the most important, important,

I'm gonna be a walking, contradiction. It's already in this, I could tell this already. I think it's a 10. I think it's incredibly important. Because I'm 52. And I have not been an incredibly like athletic person throughout my adult life. And I'd like to be able to keep moving through my older years, I'm watching a neighbor right now in his mid to late 60s already cutting back on his retirement plans, because he can't move as well as he should. So I think it's the most important, I think it's a 10.

Okay, so that So my next question would be and you already kind of answered it is, why are you a 10 and not a lower number, like a five, but you already just kind of answered

those questions, I think I'm going to be 65 and not be able to get up and then I'm going to spend the rest of my life pissed at myself for wasting, because I'm a person who works very hard with the idea that there's a payoff at the end. And after I raise these kids, and help all you people with your diabetes, and pay my bills, and all that other stuff, I'd like a little bit of time before I kick. And if I can't move around during that time, I am going to be mad at myself. That's why

Okay, okay, so kind of fear of yet not being able to live fully. Once you're able to you're once you're kind of transitioning to like kind of retirement season, and being able to live actively, and also kind of fear of you don't want to be mad at yourself.

Theoretically. I don't want to miss out on the things that I've worked towards. But consciously right now, I don't want to sit there and be disappointed in myself.

Does that make sense? Yes. Okay. Yes. Okay. So if you are the point of the exercise, if you had given me a lower number, I would then ask you like, what might bump that number up? Okay, but you're you're already at 10. Like we you would this is really, really important to you,

but I couldn't I couldn't think through that. If I gave you a five but then gave you those answers. And you said well, your numbers should probably be higher. But I

wouldn't say that that's not MI, I would say. So the difference is, if you gave me a five, and then I would say, Well, why isn't it a lower number? And then you gave me all those reasons. Because you don't want to, you know, be mad at yourself. You want to be active, participate in life, right? And then I would ask you, well, what would bump that number up a couple of notches?

It would be if somebody came in and educated me about why it was important. I think, yeah, I would need more education about you'd have to educate me about why I would need to care more about it. And then if, as if, that if, if a doctor or even an older person could say to me, Oh, I wish I would have done this too. Because, you know, anyway, and I have that example already with my neighbor. So, okay, okay. I understand. It's

good. Okay. So what and what were, the key is, you know, I'm looking for, you're arguing with yourself in a positive way. Like, if I were if you gave me a five and I said, Well, why isn't the number higher? You're arguing against the change, right? But when I'm, you gave me a number, and I asked, why isn't it lower? You're arguing for the change. And so it's so important to hear yourself. And for me, then to reflect back? The change that you why it's important for you.

I find it frustrating, though, just so you know, but keep Uh, huh. Got that? Yeah.

Okay. Okay, so now, the next then the next kind of question scaling question would be, how confident are you in your ability to make this change on a scale of zero to 10? With zero being not confident at all? And 10? Being the most confident? Of so how confident are you in the ability to make this change? Number five, your five? Yeah. Okay. Why are you a five and not a lower number?

Not a lower number? Because I know I could do this. Not a higher number? Because I want

to I don't want to hear that. Anyone here? Well, you're not a high number. You know? So you're, you're five and not a lower number? Because you know, you could do it. There's some competence in there. And but what might help you bump up a couple of points to give you more confidence.

Let's abstract though my answer was going to be had I done something like this in the past to draw from but I've not done anything like this in the past. I've I've been stuck in this space for 30 years on this topic. So I would feel more confident if I had something to draw from I guess I'd have to for confidence, look towards other people my age who have gone from not exercising to exercising, I'd have to find motivation externally, I

would think that would help me to find other people who are like minded. Find the external motivation. Somebody

who reminded me of me that was doing it would help me. That makes sense. I don't know why. Honestly, I don't think I want to dig into why but yeah,

yeah. A little bit. And this is this is just pretend. Okay. Dr. Phil therapy. Yeah. Okay, so we'll, that's what I think we'll Yeah, we'll pause there. So those are like, these are the two bigs scaling tools that Mia is using, and really what motivational interviewing, when, what we're kind of look what I would be looking for, as your pretend therapist is, that's, that's really fascinating. It's important to you. It's a 10. And the confidence was the five. So then we would look at, we'd go through a series of questions and rapport building and trust, and then going back and then make making plans around like, Okay, how could we implement building your confidence, right, because I imagine your desire is probably pretty high. I

can tell you what I did, I brought dumbbells into my office. So when I in between doing stuff, I, I do work with dumbbells thinking that if I could see some change in my upper body, that I would, that that would motivate me to do it the rest of the way. And it seemed doable for me, and it fit into my lifestyle. So that's what I ended up doing. And as you can see, I'm jacked now.

Okay, that's, that's great.

Yeah, it did work, by the way, because I brought in dumbbells that were too heavy, not by much, and they're not too heavy now. And so I do have that confidence that I could do it more. So what's holding me back is the idea that I don't know if I will. And I don't know how to like, again, that's you're not my therapist, but that's that's my spot right there.

So I would take I would take that one to your therapist, because then if we kind of came off this topic then I would look at, you know, to find motivation, if it's the confidence is low. And if we're going back to the diabetes management piece, you know, then there's obviously so many tools out there like this podcast, support systems. I feel like oftentimes, when you're lacking that motivation to make change, and you identified kind of the barriers, when you're feeling isolated, it's really easy to stay there. Yeah. And so what does it look like for you to reach out to and I think it's interesting that you made that point, if you saw somebody, sorry, I know, I'm going back to your example. But if you saw someone like you doing that, I think it's really significant when people in the diabetes community find somebody not only just living with type one or a caregiver, but very similar in age and stage. Like when I when I meet with somebody who has been living with type one for 30 plus years, I feel really connected with them. I feel connected with someone living with type one, but we've lived a different life with it. And just like for you, if you're a caregiver to someone who's been living with it for 1820 years, is different than the the newly diagnosed caregiver.

I see that too. I watch people connect with certain people. And they don't even seem to know why they've made the connection that they have. But some things click for them. And sometimes it doesn't. Also. Yeah, I mean, I think that's also why you hear me talk about things in the podcast about diabetes like that, like, I don't think a seven and a half a one sees a bad a one C. But I want you to believe that a five is doable, right? Like I think aspirational is a really big part of this, like a huge part of it, actually. But I can see you make good points about where things get in the way even like, Why did I start with my arms and not my legs because my knees hurt. And I was worried that I the last time I tried to do something with my legs, I got hurt. And I think that probably stopped me from trying it again. So I went to a different part where I was like, Oh, this won't hurt as bad. Or I won't maybe I'm not running the same risk. But relating that back to diabetes. I tried to Pre-Bolus but I got low, you know what I mean? And then it happened a couple of times, and I'm like, I'm not gonna do that anymore. That's sort of I think the, the apples to apples comparison there. Yeah, it's really interesting.

And in the importance piece, you know, when you when we, when you're asking yourself, I know I coulda shoulda woulda do all these things. But it's, it doesn't feel important to me now. It is so hard as we know what type when because or diabetes in general, we don't see the consequences immediately. And we see the mean, you see the lows, but the when you ask yourself, you know, the immediate situation that you're experiencing, if it's not uncomfortable, and you know that, like the disadvantages, the benefits of changed are not outweighing the disadvantages of the current situation. Right. So you don't want to wait till you have complications in the future tip start making those changes. But it is hard when you're in you're in that ambivalent stage to say, Well, I'm doing okay, I have all my Yeah, I know my functionality.

So if I don't have the confidence, the desire is tied to the importance to some degree, then I don't move my a one C and tell him to get pregnant. But if for another person, you don't want them to get to complications, because now we can't go backwards anymore. Very likely to now you'll know the importance and you'll probably have the desire. But you might not even put it into effect because you'll think about what's the difference. I'm here now. Although I've talked to plenty of people who have reversed a number of their complications by bringing their blood sugar's back again. So you should definitely feel motivated for that. Oh, yeah. And hope and hopeful. I see the thought line, basically, you have to manufacture the desire and or the importance before it comes in a tangible form that you can't get away from? Is it fake it till you make it?

Sometimes, you know, I was even just listening to something earlier about, you know, the imposter syndrome. And I don't know if that fully applies here. But it just popped into my mind around like, are you particularly newly diagnosed families where you have, you're feeling like, oh my gosh, what, what are we doing? When are we bolusing? How much all of that trying to figure out these or hates you or kind of actively in that sort of, quote, imposter syndrome. And having that perseverance, the motivation, the drive, the resilience to keep going is is exhausting and challenging. And

because you have to manage EDF to manufacture that, like, Let's go I've got this feeling when you don't really have it, you don't feel like you've got it, or you need to believe like I tell people all the time because you're asking the questions indicates to me that it's going to work out for you. And so you seem interested in healthier, I think if you continue to be interested and continue to look for answers, that one day you'll wake up and diabetes won't be easy, but it'll be you'll be better at it. And that'll make it feel easier. And then you can progress in that direction. I say that to them, because I genuinely believe it. And I think it's the only thing tangible you can say to somebody when you really don't have anything tangible to say to them. You know what I mean? Like, because at the moment, you don't know how to Bolus and you don't have an experience of of time. And so you have no way to believe that even know what you're doing. You have to believe in something. So you have to have somebody who says, Hey, listen, I've been down here before, and I know the way out. There really is it right. So you know that story? guy walks by friends at a hole. Ever heard that one? Yeah. He says help me. He says to the priest helped me the priest says a prayer, you know, and other people come down and he sees his friend, his friend jumps down the hole with him. He goes, What are you doing my we're both stuck down here. And he goes, Yeah, but I've been down here before. And I know the way out. That's what you need, you need somebody to like to be like, I usually describe it as I'm on a path. I'm on the same path. As those of you who are listening, I'm just ahead of you. And I know where all the potholes are. So I turn around, I shine a light on them. So you can make it up to where I'm at. That's how it feels to me.

So that's good. I've never heard you say it like that. Oh, it's good.

I say a lot of Erica, it's hard to keep track of all of it.

And I think most importantly, as I know, I always talk about to it's like in that particularly the initial stage or the 20 year stage or, you know, whatever you find yourself ambivalent, or overwhelmed you to, you know, offer that self compassion. And that it's okay to be to be ambivalent or to be stuck. And to be vulnerable in that space to is, I know, it can be hard. And speaking that out to people and not feeling alone in it. Because they know there are a lot of people out there in this stage. Yeah, but it's beginning, middle, or, you know, living with it for 50 years, to not feel ashamed in that space, to be vulnerable and offer compassion to each other and to yourself is really important part of that process.

Isn't it interesting that some people get thrown into this problem, this diabetes thing, and they have all the concerns and problems that we've outlined here today. And somebody else who seemingly is the same kind of person gets thrown into it. And they just, they don't run into any of these problems. They just, they don't get stuck there. They don't become ambivalent, they're not unsure. They don't need to find desire or importance. And it's so easy to look at those two different people and make a judgement. That one's not trying. And that one is, but I genuinely don't believe that's true. I really think it's a lot about like your past experiences, all of them as an amalgam really. And that's it. Like I think you react to things based on the experiences you've had in the past. And some people turtle up and some people run forward. And then there's all kinds of, you know, in between those two ideas. I don't think that a person who's excelling, can take credit any more than a person who's faltering can take blame, if that makes sense. I think it's just the luck of the draw. Sometimes, you know, who you are and how you grew up, and the people who impacted you growing up the experiences that you couldn't have avoided that shape you one way or the other. It's very, very random. And anyway, I don't I don't like it when people take credit for their success. Because I think you're lucky to be in the position you're in, you know, to collect that success sometimes.

Yes. Anyway,

not that everybody can't get there. But some people have more speed bumps along the way than others.

Yes, yeah. History, and access and all of those things. And, and I love that you just ended on and there's hope there's hope for or change, or otherwise, we wouldn't be here. There

absolutely is there's always hope. I mean, you just have to find, you just have to find the right outside influences to elevate. It's not the maybe Elevate is the right word to bring you up to the place where you are the people who are succeeding are like, what did they know or feel? Or how do they respond? Like, how can I do those things to, you know, give me the outcomes that they have? That's kind of what how I think about it. I mean, I mean, I grew up really broke, I'm not broke anymore. And I didn't grow up with a lot of like, understanding around me, I have that now. You know, I grew up with people who would have just hit me. If like, I couldn't do one of these things. Then if I would have reacted, they would have thought like hitting me worked. And if I didn't react then they would go like he he doesn't care that that would have been that simple, right? I don't live around that anymore. So I've elevated a lot of my life. I think a lot of people could really. I wish everybody luck. It ain't easy, but don't give up. Yeah. So, Erica, thank

you so much. You're welcome. Thank you.

A huge thanks to Dexcom for being longtime sponsors of the Juicebox Podcast. dexcom.com/juice box head over there now, get started today. Jalen is an incredible example of what so many experienced living with diabetes, you show up for yourself and others every day, never letting diabetes define you. And that is what the Medtronic champion community is all about. Each of us is strong, and together, we're even stronger. To hear more stories from the Medtronic champion community or to share your own story visit Medtronic diabetes.com/juicebox And look out online for the hashtag Medtronic champion. Thank you so much for listening. I hope you enjoy my full conversation with Jalen coming up in just a moment. I want to take another moment to thank touched by type one for being such a terrific and longtime sponsor of the Juicebox Podcast. I will of course be speaking again this year at their live event in Orlando, Florida. I hope to see you there. The event is absolutely free for you to attend. Touched by type one.org. Go to the Programs tab and find out more. I'll see you there. If you or a loved one was just diagnosed with type one diabetes, and you're looking for some fresh perspective. The bold beginning series from the Juicebox Podcast is a terrific place to start. That series is with myself and Jenny Smith. Jenny is a CDC es a registered dietitian and a type one for over 35 years. And in the bowl beginning series Jenny and I are going to answer the questions that most people have after a type one diabetes diagnosis. The series begins at episode 698. In your podcast player where you can go to juicebox podcast.com and click on bold beginnings in the menu. If you're looking for community around type one diabetes, check out the Juicebox Podcast private Facebook group Juicebox Podcast type one diabetes, but everybody is welcome type one type two gestational loved ones. It doesn't matter to me. If you're impacted by diabetes, and you're looking for support, comfort or community check out Juicebox Podcast type one diabetes on Facebook. Thanks for hanging out until the end. Now you're going to hear my entire conversation with Jalen don't forget Medtronic diabetes.com/juice box or the hashtag Medtronic champion on your favorite social media platform. My

name is Jalen Mayfield. I am 29 years old. I live in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, where I am originally from Waynesboro, Mississippi. So I've kind of traveled all over. I've just landed here in the Midwest and haven't left since

ice. How old were you when you were diagnosed with type one diabetes?

I was 14 years old when I was diagnosed with type one diabetes

15 years ago. Wow. Yes. Okay. 14 years old. What are you like? Do you remember what grade you were in?

I actually do because we we have like an eighth grade promotion. So I had just had a great promotion. So I was going straight into high school. So it was a summer, heading into high school

was that particularly difficult going into high school with this new thing? I

was unimaginable. You know, I missed my entire summer. So I went, I was going to a brand new school with, you know, our community, we brought three different schools together. So I was around a bunch of new people that I had not been going to school with. So it was hard trying to balance that while also explaining to people what type one diabetes was,

did you even know? Or were you just learning at the same time?

I honestly was learning at the same time, my hometown did not have an endocrinologist. So I was traveling almost over an hour to the nearest you know, pediatrician, like endocrinologist for children. So you know, I outside of that I didn't have any type of support in my hometown.

Was there any expectation of diabetes that somebody else in your family have type one? No,

I was the first one to have type one of my family. And do you have children now?

I do not know. Do you think you will one day,

still thinking about it? But right now, I've just been traveling books at all my career myself.

So what do you do? What's your career? Yeah,

so I am a marketing leasing specialist for a student housing company. So we oversee about 90 properties throughout the US so I've been working for them for about

eight years now. And you get to travel a lot in that job.

Yes, I experienced a lot of travel it's fun but also difficult especially with all your your type one diabetes supplies, and all your electronics so it's a bit of a hassle sometimes.

What do you find that you absolutely need with you while you're traveling? diabetes wise,

I have learned My biggest thing I need is some type of glucose. I have experienced lows, whether that's on a flight traveling, walking through the airport. And I used to always experience just being nervous to ask for some type of snack or anything. So I just felt, I felt like I needed to always have something on me. And that has made it might travel a lot easier.

So growing up in the small town, what was your initial challenge during diagnosis? And what other challenges did you find along the way?

Yeah, I think the initial one, I felt isolated, I had no one to talk to that it was experiencing what I was going through, you know, they were people would say, Oh, I know, this is like hard for you. But I was like, you really don't like I, I just felt lonely. I didn't know. You know, people were watching everything I did. He was like, You can't eat this, you can't eat that. I felt like all of my childhood had been, you know, I don't even remember what it was like, for life before diabetes at this point, because I felt like that's the only thing I could focus on was trying to do a life with type one diabetes,

when you found yourself misunderstood? Did you try to explain to people or did you find it easier just to stay private?

I honestly I just held back I didn't really like talking about it. It was just, it felt like it was just an repeating record where I was saying things and people weren't understanding it. And I also was still in the process of learning it. So I just, you know, kept it to myself didn't really talk about it was I absolutely had to,

did you eventually find people in real life that you could confide in.

I think I never really got the experience until after getting to college. And then once I graduated college, and moving to an even bigger town, that's where I finally found those people where I was like, Okay, there's a lot of other people that have type one diabetes. And you know, there's a community out there, which I had never experienced before, is college

where you met somebody with diabetes for the first time, or just where you met more people with different ways of thinking. So

I met my first person with diabetes, actually, my freshman year of high school, there was only one other person. And he had had it since he was a kid like young once this was like, maybe born, or like, right after that timeframe. So that was the only other person I knew until I got to college. And I started meeting other people, I was a member of the band, and I was an RA. So I was like, Okay, there's, you know, there's a small handful of people also at my university. But then, once I moved to, I moved to St. Louis. And a lot of my friends I met were like med students, and they were young professionals. And that's where I started really getting involved with one of my really close friends to this day. He was also type one diabetic. And I was like, that's who introduced me to all these different types of communities and technologies, and which is really what helped jumpstart my learning more in depth with type one diabetes.

Do you think I mean, there was that one person in high school, but you were young? Do you really think you were ready to build a relationship and around diabetes? Or did you even know the reason why that would be important at the time?

I didn't, uh, you know, I honestly didn't think about it, I just was i Oh, there's another person in my class that's kind of going through the same thing as I am. But they've also had it a lot longer than I have. So they kind of got it down. They don't really talk about it. And I was like, Well, I don't really have much to, like, connect with him. So sorry, connect with him. Oh, yeah,

no. So now once your world expands as far as different people, different backgrounds, different places in college, you see the need to connect in real life, but there's still only a few people, but there's still value in that. Right? Correct. What do you think that value was at the time?

I think it was just what making me feel like I was just a normal person. I just wanted that. And I just, I needed to know that. Like, you know, there was other people out there with type one diabetes experiencing the same type of, you know, thoughts that I

was habit. When were you first introduced to the Medtronic champions community? Yeah.

So about two years ago, I was, you know, becoming more I was looking around, and I noticed it upon the Medtronic community. And I was like, this is something I really, really, I kind of need, you know, I said I, all throughout these years, I was, you know, afraid to show my pump. You couldn't, I would wear long sleeves, like, didn't want people to see my CGM because I didn't want people to ask me questions. And you know, I just felt so uncomfortable. And then I noticed seeing these people really, in the Medtronic community just they embraced it, you could see and they weren't afraid to show it. And that was something I was really looking forward to.

How is it knowing that your diabetes technology is such an important part of your health and your care, and having to hide it? What did it feel like to have to hide that diabetes technology and how did it feel to be able to kind of let it go,

I will refuse to go anywhere. I like to I would run to the bathroom. I just didn't want to do it in public because I felt like people were watching me and that was just one of the hardest things I was trying to overcome. You know, I was fresh out of college, going into young professional world. So you know, going out on work events and things like that I just, I just didn't think I just didn't think to have it out because I was so afraid. But then, once I did start, you know, embracing it and showing it, that's when the curiosity came. And it was actually genuine questions and people wanting to know more about the equipment that I'm on, and how does this work? And what does this mean? And things like that, which made it kind of inspired me? Because I was like, Okay, people actually do want to understand what I'm experiencing with type one diabetes.

What did you experience when, when the internet came into play? And now suddenly as easy as a hashtag? And you can meet all these other people who are living with diabetes as well? Can you tell me how that is? Either different or valuable? I guess, compared to meeting a few people in real life?

Absolutely. I think if you look back from when I was first diagnosed to now, you, I would have never thought of like, you know, searching anything for someone with, you know, type one diabetes. And now it's like, it's all I see, you know, you can easily search Medtronic champions, and you see people that pop up, and you're like, wow, look at all this content. And I think that's something that, that kind of just motivates me, and which is how I've kind of came out of my shell and started embracing more and posting more on my social media with about, you know, how I'm there with type one diabetes. And I think that's something that I hope can inspire everyone else. What

was it like having more personal intimate relationships in college with type one?

I think it was kind of hard to explain, you know, just, for example, like, no one really knows, it understands, like what alo is. And I think that was a very hard thing for me to explain, like I, you know, it can happen in any moment. And I'm sweating. I'm just really like, not all there. And I'm trying to explain, like, Hey, this is what's going on, I need your help. And I think that was something that was hard for me to, you know, I did talk to people about it. So when this happened, they were like, oh, you know, what's going on with your mate? I'm actually a type one diabetic. This is what's going on? I need your help. What about?

Once you've had an experience like that in front of someone? Was it always bonding? Or did it ever have people kind of step back and be maybe more leery of your relationship?

After I would tell someone I had type one diabetes after some type of Evander ad, and they were academ more upset with me that I didn't tell them up front. Because they were like, you know, I care about you, as a person I would have loved to knowing this about you. It's not anything you should have to hide from me. And that was a lot of the realization that I was going through with a lot of people. Okay,

let me ask you this. So now we talked about what it was like to be low, and to have that more kind of emergent situation. But what about when your blood sugar has been high or stubborn? And you're not thinking correctly, but it's not as obvious maybe to you or to them? Yeah.

So I also I go through my same experiences when I have high blood sugars, you know, I can tell like, from my co workers, for example, I didn't really talk to you know, when I go out backtrack, when I visit multiple sites for work, I usually don't announce it. And so sometimes, I'm working throughout the day, I might have smacked forgot to take some insulin, and my blood sugar is running high, and I'm a little bit more irritable, I'm all over the place. And I'm Mike, let me stop. Hey, guys, I need to like take some insulin, and I'm sorry, I'm not I didn't tell you guys. I'm a diabetic. So you may be wondering why I'm kind of just a little bit snippy, you know, so I like to make sure I do that now going forward, because that's something I noticed. And it was kind of hindering me with my career because I was, you know, getting irritable, because I'm working nonstop. And I'm forgetting to take a step back and focus on my diabetes, right?

Hey, with the advent of new technologies, like Medtronic, CGM, and other diabetes technology, can you tell me how that's improved your life and those interactions with people?

Yeah, I can. I feel confident knowing that it's working in the background, as someone and I've always at least said it, I have been someone that's really bad with counting my carbs. So sometimes I kind of undershoot it because I'm scared. But it allows me to just know that, hey, it's gonna it's got my back if I forget something, and I think that allows me to have a quick, have a quick lunch. And then I'm able to get back into the work day because it's such a fast paced industry that I work in. So sometimes it is easy to forget. And so I love that I have that system that's keeping track of everything for me.

Let me ask you one last question. When you have interactions online with other people who have type one diabetes, what social media do you find the most valuable for you personally? Like what platforms do you see the most people and have the most good interactions on?