#1975 CGM Burden
CGM Burden
Erika Forsyth is back. She and Scott take apart the paradox of CGM data — why more information can make you feel worse, and how checking every five minutes starts to run you.
Jump to a moment
- The paradox: more data helps the numbers and can hurt the person. CGM access reliably lowers A1c and raises time in range. Erika's question is what else comes with it — because the same stream that makes management possible also makes it possible to watch constantly, and watching has its own cost.
- The belief underneath the behavior. Her framing is a thought most people never say out loud: if I can see it, I'm responsible for responding to it. She's careful that hypervigilance isn't automatically a problem — if it's working and you don't feel anxious, that's fine. The useful test is whether you feel capable of not checking, not whether you check.
- Why it's hard to stop. Scott compares waiting for the next five-minute reading to the part of the brain that enjoys gambling, and Erika agrees it can temporarily regulate your nervous system — which is exactly why it repeats. Being right once also licenses the next check, because catching something proves the watching worked.
- The number is not a report card. Both land hard on the idea that a bad diabetes day becomes a bad parenting day. Erika's counter is that you're doing the best you can without living in your child's body, and Scott adds that you started with whatever tools and knowledge someone handed you — so judging yourself against data you couldn't even see a decade ago isn't a fair trade.
- He tells the story he usually doesn't. Scott describes the first time an alarm went off overnight and the walk to Arden's bedroom where he was certain he'd killed her — and is honest that those years lasted longer than he wishes they had. Erika's point in response is that the season of hypervigilance is a season: it feels permanent while you're in it, and it does end.
- Mental wellness series with Erika Forsyth — The full Scott and Erika catalog on the emotional side of type 1.
- Erika Forsyth, LMFT — Erika's practice — licensed in several states.
- Diabetes Pro Tip series — Episodes 1000-1025 — settings, timing, and food impact, the three things Scott points to.
- Listener survey results — What listeners report about anxiety and management after the podcast.
Every word of the conversation
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Erika is back1:53
Erica is back. I know you all... You send letters. You send notes. You go, Scott, where's Erica?
I say, I'm trying. She's very busy. Very, very busy. Professional woman has children. She's married.
There's a lot going on. Erica, thank you. I appreciate you being here.
Thank you. Must have to be here.
Yeah. You must have missed me. No?
Yes. Of course. I mean, well, we had the whole summer. You had a busy summer of conferences. We did our our summary or brainstorming session a couple weeks ago.
It's fun. I sent a note to a friend recently. I won't say who it was. And I just texted and I said, hey. Are you okay?
I've been worried about you recently. And they said, why have you been worried about me? I said, well, you haven't talked to me in a while. It must be upsetting for you.
But I'll
They laughed, I laughed, and we chatted. I don't really believe that people get upset when they haven't seen me in a while. That would be insane. Tell everybody what we're gonna talk about today.
Okay. So we... I know we originally discussed this in our brainstorming session about... Around caregiver distress, specifically around the burden of knowledge or the burden of knowing as a result of CGM data. But I think as we talk about it, we can also you can think about it through the lens of someone living with diabetes as well.
But most of it might might be discussed from the caregiver perspective, but just wanted to note that. And before we get into it, I want to definitely affirm that I am a huge fan of my CGM, and I am very grateful for it. In fact, I I don't know if I've shared this. I only started wearing a CGM around at least the the the Dexcom about eight to nine years ago Mhmm. Which I know is is fairly recent compared to, like, your daughter has been on it for twenty years or something.
For as long as as long as it's been available, I think we've had it. Yes. Yeah. I mean, maybe not that very first one, but I I think I think what's interesting... What...
I mean, there's a lot that's interesting about you. But one of the things that's interesting about you is that you have had type one diabetes for so long. And even though we haven't picked through it, I infer through our conversations that you had a lot of struggling years with it. And and it's fine because you you let your personal stuff out just enough once in a while, but you're not like... You don't dig too deep into it all the time.
And so it's interesting because if I met you today, I wouldn't take you as a person who had only had a CGM for the last eight years. Or, like, sometimes I'll interview somebody who's doing so well and their their understanding is so clear and they'll talk about their variability being fantastic and their a one c being low and everything's right. And then I say, oh, when did you start... Come across all this? I just just recently had a guy on who was using AI to tune his loop data, I think.
And, you know, he's just so together when he's talking about it, but has only really started to look into it in, like, the last couple of years. And I... And that's always... I don't know if I should be surprised by it. I am generally surprised by it when it happens.
And so I feel like I've known you long enough now, and I know how you are today. It's hard for me to imagine you before. Don't if that makes sense or not. And I guess that's probably a testament to how far you've come and how much experience you have. But, anyway, I I know I know you use a CGM, and we're not trying to talk anybody out of using a CGM.
Like, they're
No.
Really fantastic. There is other stuff that comes with it, and that's what we're gonna talk about
right now. Well, then that's so interesting. Just on that note, I also notice a common phenomenon of people who have been living with type one for twenty, thirty years. And either because of access or doctors not bringing it up or engaged in what is current in terms of technology might not even have the opportunity or or know how about... I was on a different CGMs prior to being on the DexCom here and there for a couple years, but didn't even actually know about the DexCom till probably ten years ago.
Before CGM, and the fingers that worked best6:15
Even that
Because it wasn't even proposed to me.
Right. Right. Even that, like, here and there for a couple of years. Like, if I said to you now, hey. You're only gonna wear your CGM every couple of months.
You'd be like, no. That's not what's gonna happen. I'm gonna wear it
all yeah.
I'm gonna wear it all the time. So back then, you were sort of like, oh, I wore it, then I took it off, then I did this with it.
Yes. Yeah.
That's... It's just... I don't know. I find I find that fascinating. Maybe at the end of all this, Erica.
Maybe it'll be one of my last interviews. Well, we'll just throw away this, like, professional facade, and you can cry and tell me your whole story. It'd be nice. Okay.
That sounds like so much fun.
Oh, yeah. You'll love that. Few years from now. Don't worry. I'm not...
I got time left. But at the end, we'll do that.
Well, you know what also is interesting? We... I don't hear as much for people who do use the CGM, like, growing up, and I'm... I think I've talked to Jenny about this. Our fingers were calloused, you know, from finger pricking.
And I remember I was told in the beginning, I was around 12 years old, I only finger pricked on my left hand for years because I didn't want to lose sensitivity. I didn't want to damage my nerves on my right hand because I'm right handed. Yeah. So I don't... And for those of you who choose to not use a CGM, maybe still have that.
But it's just something I don't hear as much about is that the calluses and the nerve damage.
Oh, that's so interesting. That's a... Was that direction from a doctor or just common sense? Like, I'll just... I'm losing the ability to, like, be dex...
Like, were you able to be dexterity? You just couldn't feel? Or is it... Was the concern that it could happen?
I I think it was the concern that could happen. So I just... I don't I don't really remember if I was directly told from a, you know, a doctor. But I just somehow only did it. It was easier because you're using your right hand to finger prick on the left.
And I just eventually thought, well, I wanna spare my right hand from having any issues.
Yeah. I would say I would say it's it's a little it's a little detail about raising a kid with type one. But when you're checking blood sugars all the time like that, I was always careful to move around on fingers. But she wouldn't want me to because there were some fingers that were
Oh, yes.
That that she couldn't feel it as much on. And so I'd be like, here, give me this. And she'd be like, no. No. And then she'd she'd give me the finger that she wanted me to use.
Give me the finger. Maybe she was. Give give me the give me the finger that she wanted me to use because it wouldn't hurt as much. And and it's interesting too. Like, did you do do you do the tips of your fingers?
No. Do the sides?
Always the sides. Sides. Never the... That was... I feel like instructed, but the sides and the third and fourth fingers were always the best.
And now I know there are great devices that you can test elsewhere on your body as well. So, thankfully, technology has improved that.
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I don't know. You just triggered that memory.
Yeah. No kidding. It's funny how it sticks with you too because I still... If I... I don't know how often I check Arden's blood sugar with a meter anymore, like me personally, but sometimes overnight, you know, and I still immediately without thinking, like, milk her finger.
Like, do you know I mean? Like, squeeze it from her hand up to the tip to try to get blood into it so that it'll go easier. And... Yeah. I I don't think that's a skill I'm gonna lose anytime soon.
Alright. So Okay. How do we how do we dive into this?
Okay. So I think kind of it is a general summary and, you know, theme is that, yes, CGM data is... Serves as kind of main two two things. Right? It...
It's... Yes. It's a tool for safety, but we know that it can also become a source of added stress and distress. And it isn't it isn't that we're getting the data twenty four seven. That isn't the issue.
Like, that's... As we know, it's a benefit, and we can decrease our our a one c and increase our time and range, you know, often as a result of CGM data and use. But when we start to use it, when the nervous system becomes reliant upon access to the data and using it as a kind of a regulating mechanism to feel safe in your body. So that's what we're gonna talk about, just noticing what does that look like? What does that feel like?
The paradox of more data12:39
What is this paradox, right, that that can occur with having access to more data?
Okay. I Okay. Gonna say right before you jump in, if you ask me to describe what a CGM does, I wouldn't say safety first. I just... I realized that when you were talking.
When you when you... If you were to ask me what is a CGM for, it's to make better decisions about insulin. It gets a management tool to me. Like, I know it does the safety part, but it's not how I think of it. Now if you would have asked me probably years ago, I don't...
I'm trying to think back to whether or not my... Because I had so much struggle trying to use our... Like, figure out how to handle Arden's blood sugar before CGMs that when I got it, I immediately thought of it as, yeah, I think of it more as a management tool than as a safety device. Get freely understanding what it is. But, like Mhmm.
Okay. I'm sorry. I didn't mean that. I just No.
That's good. That's interesting.
Go ahead.
So so, you know, back back in the day before CGMs, we... There was not this continuous access to data, and that probably felt scary. I I was... I've been thinking a lot about my parents in thinking through this episode of, like, how did they... Did they have it easier because they didn't know and have access to this information in some ways?
Obviously, they probably felt a lot more stressed and nervous than having, you know, two children, let alone one, not knowing where they are and their blood sugars. But that also wasn't even an opportunity. So I can't even... It's not even maybe fair to compare. Yeah.
Like... So... Yeah. So we we shifted from not having less information to more, but that can also feel just as scary sometimes. And so as you were talking about this kind of empowering data is helpful.
And that's interesting that you didn't think that's not your first thought. I'm gonna uphold that as the safe... It's not a safety mechanism. But I think the the paradox is what do you... When you have all this information in front of you, often, you feel like you have to do something with it.
Mhmm.
Right? So there... That's there... That's the burden. So you have...
“If I can see it, I'm responsible”14:54
You could have this thought, like, if I if I can see it, then I'm responsible for responding to it. I'm responsible for doing something with it, or perhaps I'm using it to help me stay calm in a regulated state.
Okay.
Okay. So what occurs... And, also, I wanna give a caveat as we talk about these different themes around CGM data that there are certainly stages when being hypervigilant around the data is very normal. And and if you are operating in that way and it's working for you and you do not feel anxious, then being hypervigilant as a caregiver or person with diabetes, that's okay. I'm not...
None of this is trying to trying to say it's wrong or you shouldn't be doing it, but just something to notice. Right? Okay. So hypervigilance can look from the outside and internally as the parent like you're being a really good diabetes parent. Right?
Because you are... You're... Maybe you're checking the CGM repeatedly. You're you're looking at it every five minutes for the display to change. You might have it up in multiple places, you know, at work or at home, on your laptop or computer, on your watch, on your phone, on the SugarPixel, SugarDash, multiple locations.
Again, none of that is wrong or bad.
Mhmm.
And that might feel like, okay. I'm I'm a good parent. I'm always I'm always checking. I'm always aware. You might be watching trends to maybe make dosing adjustments.
You might be anticipating or catching the next glucose change. Like, you're seeing the arrow go up and you're watching it every five minutes, and you're gonna try and catch it with a microdose or or half of a gummy. You're looking for patterns, and you're always maybe mentally calculating what's gonna happen next. So, again, these are... None of these behaviors are wrong or bad.
But what I... I'm wanting to encourage you is, you know, first of all, these these behaviors are gonna be rewarded, right, because you are maybe catching the low or catching the high or keeping your child in what feels like a very medically safe range. But what happens is that it might evolve into a form of anxiety without even knowing it. Okay? Because you you have this framework that, you know, I'm not I'm...
Maybe I'm not anxious. I'm just staying on top of things. Or maybe I am anxious, and I'm staying up top of things, and that's okay. This is my new life. This is how I'm gonna, you know, act as a care and be the best parent possible.
Can you choose not to check?17:39
So what we're wanting to encourage to kind of bring the awareness around noticing this distinction is whether you feel capable of not checking. Right? So we're not saying
It's not a compulsion....
Am I saying... Yeah. Yes. Right.
Yes. Okay.
Okay. Should I keep going?
I I would... I was gonna throw in here that I remember having a conscious, like, thought after Arden was diagnosed, keeping in mind that it was, you know, before CGMs. I thought, oh, I didn't expect this to happen, but now one of my children has this problem. I guess this is what's gonna kill me. Like, because...
Okay. Like, I guess I'm gonna die earlier or have more health issues or not take as good care of myself because now I am involved in this process that human beings are not supposed to be involved in. Like, I'm acting like an internal organ. Right? Like, a thing that is working mindlessly every millisecond for most people, I'm now gonna have to pay attention to and not nearly as as fine tuned and as as micro or as as I should be because that...
I can't I can't mimic what the body's doing, but I'll just have to pay attention to it as closely as I can and do as much as I can. That's probably going to kill me. But I found myself feeling like, well, okay. Well, if that's it, then that's what has to happen because Arden wasn't asked to be born. She certainly didn't ask for diabetes.
I asked for a child. Here she is. This is my responsibility. Now I I don't I don't I don't expect everybody to feel that way. As a matter of fact, I would imagine some people would look and say, no.
I... Like, you know, this is what's happening. I've heard people say, like, you know, it's their thing. It's gonna do what it does. I'll be as supportive as I can.
I was I was I was fully ready to step in front of that that that bus and and was doing it. I'm very glad that I don't have to do it like that any longer. But maybe because that was my mindset coming in, the data doesn't feel overwhelming to me. It feels relieving to me. So...
And maybe it's where you come into the data to some degree. Although, I'm assuming some of it's gonna be your predisposal to anxiety and other issues like that. But for me, a person who doesn't feel particularly anxious, I was... I don't know. Like, I guess that's it, really.
Like, I was ready to give my life for it, and this is way better than that. So, anyway, I'm sorry. I I just... That's that's what I got so far. I'm jumping now.
I'm jumping out now because you're doing such a nice job.
It's good. Yeah. It's good. So I think... And and of course, I think it also can be said that we need to be vigilant as people with type one or caregivers or people with diabetes.
There is an expectation or a purpose around that. So I think that the challenge is recognizing when that the vigilance has shifted into hypervigilance, and you have that feeling of needing to constantly monitor. But I also wanna recognize that as a caregiver for a child who's two years old, that there's probably no other way
Yeah.
In that in that period of time. Or when you're changing devices or growth spurts or, I don't know, fill in the blank with a very... Variability where maybe you've been in a kind of stable place and things have shifted. And so there might be that season of hypervigilance from the vigilant perspective. So just wanted to normalize that too.
Okay. So what what happens in... You know, what's been described as the... As a feedback loop type of system. Right?
Obviously, we have it as a feedback loop for our automated insulin delivery systems or whatever algorithm you might be using. If you are with a CGM, there is that infrastructure in math of an algorithm, but noticing what is that doing for you in your nervous system. So you are unsure of what your blood sugar is or what your child's blood sugar is, noticing what is going on in your body. Is your heart racing? Is...
What's happening in your body while you wait22:07
Are your thoughts racing? Are you feeling actual physical symptoms, other physical symptoms of anxiety, sweaty palms? Even... I'm talking about for, like, those either minutes or moments or in between the five minute Yeah. What's word?
Waiting... Change. Yeah. Waiting for that revolution to go around one more time.
Yeah. Yes. So noticing what what is going on within your body. If you are someone who's looking at checking every five minutes, you check it. You you might experience that temporary relief.
Okay. Every... You know, arrow's stable. They're in range. I'm in range.
Then you... Then the next time you check, the glucose is you... Maybe you have an arrow up, arrow down, and you have that increased anxiety, which then reinforces that belief system. Oh, I gotta keep checking.
Mhmm. Oh, yeah. Oh, the idea of, like, what's about to happen, I think, is more damaging than... I don't know how to say that then. What is happening?
Because you're you're sitting there feeling like, well, I just need this thing to spin around to the fifth minute, like, to pop up again. I mean, I'm certainly not the only one who's, like, pulls down on the screen to refresh the Dexcom app to get, like, a number when I need it. Right? Trying to rush it even though it's not gonna work. And then it pops up.
And as soon as you have the number, even... I find that even if the number is what I was hoping for, there's still a voice in your head that goes, well, yeah, but five minutes from now, like, what could I... It's it's almost like it's almost like whatever part of your brain that would enjoy, like, gambling Yeah. Is tortured by this part of it. Like, the...
The part of your brain that likes gambling23:45
Like, let me just spin it again and see what happens. I I I guess there's gotta be a connection there. Right? Because if you put money to it and you set... Because...
I mean, what is a what is a a a slot machine?
A slot machine.
Yeah. It's it's just like, oh, I... You could put in your life savings and pull on it and go, oh, no. It's okay. The next time it'll hit.
I'll do it again. I'll do it again. So whatever it is that makes you feel like the next time is gonna give me what I want,
there's not a one, two, three step fix.
Oh. Oh, was thinking we could, like, design a new UI system that wouldn't give people that feeling, and then maybe I could finally retire. But... Okay. No.
Go ahead.
Well, maybe you can try that. Yes. I think... Well, it's not necessarily fixing. It's having this awareness, right, of noticing, yes, it can temporarily regulate your nervous system.
You do have that. Okay. Phew. Yes. We gave that huge pre bolus or, oh, they're out in recess, but they're they're still in range.
Or I'm working out, and I'm still in range. So you you get that feedback. Your nervous system says, okay. We're okay. He's okay.
We're safe. Right? So then you... So, yeah, it works in that way and re... And establishes that firm belief that by looking and checking and getting the number, I'm I'm gonna be okay.
But then, right, as soon as you look and the arrow's down, you have that thought of, oh my gosh. You know, the... I'm... They're dropping. I'm not okay.
And then that creates that stronger urge to keep checking because it's now become... It... It's also... It's the reassurance that things are okay, but then also is the trigger for things are are not okay. I'm in distress.
Right? So
Unless your personality is such that you're like, oh, finally, this situation needs me. Like, I can see how this could, like... I could see how this could poison all kinds of personality types. Right? Because now suddenly if something needs to be done, it's like, well, here...
Finally, I knew it, by the way. That's also what a lot of people will joke with me when they're when they're interviewing me. A lot of people will... This won't... I hope this doesn't seem like a left turn.
They'll say when my... Before my kid was diagnosed, I saw all of these things. And I would go to my spouse and say, I'm telling you they have diabetes. I saw this, this, and this. And somebody would say to them, you're being silly.
You're looking too closely. A lot of times nurses get told, like, it's because you're a nurse. You think you see it in everybody. But then eventually, the... Somebody gets diagnosed, and there's almost of a feeling of, like, see, I told you so.
I knew I saw that. And because I was right, it gives you license to continue to be that hypervigilant because you believe, like, oh, I was right. I'll be right about the next thing too. Yeah. This is terrible.
How crazy is it? How crazy is it that something this valuable can be this valuable and this damaging literally at the same time? Ugh. I'm sorry. Keep going.
Well, I almost... I, yeah, I just feel like it's it's... There's so much benefit, but sometimes I almost wish that there'd be, like, a, you know, a user beware this might increase anxiety kind of thing. I don't know. Right.
It's a silly thought. But it happens for for people also living with it for years and years and years and years, and they didn't realize the the fluctuations that were occurring
Mhmm.
When they were maybe in range managing well. Right? So it can it can skew things in the opposite direction, but we still really love c... CGMs. Okay.
Yeah. So so... Yeah. So it can... The...
This distinction can shift from I can check to I need to check. And, again, if you're hearing this and you feel like, well, of course, I need to check. My my daughter's... You know, the... They're preverbal or they don't know what a low feels like.
Yes. For sure. There is that sense of needing to check. But noticing, again, this isn't like the fix, but just noticing in the background, what are some of those beliefs that you might start to experience in your mind, right, that if you don't check, do you have the thought of you're being irresponsible? Right?
Like, if you pop in the shower for ten minutes and you miss one of the five minute readings, do you get out of the shower and maybe the arrow's going down? Are you then feeling like I'm... It's... If I didn't notice or I I took a break for five minutes, and now I'm... It's my fault.
I'm an irresponsible parent. You know, a good parent would have been watching or having the the the alarms going off while I was in the shower. I should have known. And then ultimately, you know, if my if my child's having a bad diabetes day, I'm having a bad parenting day. Yeah.
A bad diabetes day, a bad parenting day28:57
And so again, I guess.
Okay. Do you know the feeling of... I'm sure you must, but it's the first time that you sleep through the night and never wake up once overnight. And then you wake up, your eyes open, and your first conscious thought is, I didn't wake up last night. What if Arden's dead?
Like, that's that's the first thought. Right? Like... And then she's not. And then that pressure lives with you forever.
Like, it feels like you were on watch in a foxhole and you let your buddy sleep and you said, no. I'll stay up. And then you you fell asleep. And when you open your eyes and everyone's not been shot, you you... The pressure of, like, how you almost let everybody down Mhmm.
It rewired me. Like, I think everyone listening knows what it feels like to wake up the first morning having meant to be up overnight and it not happening and that that panic. I bet you I I I bet you I described it perfectly. Does it happen to you when you have diabetes?
That was a great analogy. The... Does that feeling
I know it doesn't.
I I was saying
Because it's for you.
Probably not the same because I know... Was trying to think about this as a parent. My two girls do not have type one. But that feeling of... There's that guilt and blame and pressure to keep your child safe.
Yeah. Right? Now in in the world versus diabetes, it is different. Right? Like, it is different.
So I cannot fully understand what that feeling is like as a parent because I am not... Diabetes is in my body. Right? So I know what it feels like. And, thankfully, my body wakes me up when I'm low.
Also, you wake up in the morning alarms. You're alive. So there's no, like, I wonder what's going on. Because the walk... I don't wanna sound, like, overly, like, dramatic.
The night he thought he'd killed Arden31:18
But the first time this happened to me, my walk to Arden's bedroom, I thought I killed Arden. Like, I I did. Like, I'm gonna go in there. She's not gonna be alive. I did this.
Like like... And by the way, how ridiculous is that? Because people need to sleep. You you you know what I mean? Like like, how am I supposed to stay awake for the rest of my life?
Like... And then that pressure hits you. Like, I'm like, by the way, this was before CGMs. I used to get up and check her blood sugar a number of times overnight. And and, anyway, like, it's just...
Yeah. I... It's not the same for you. I just don't know what your version of that is. Maybe it's not around sleeping.
Maybe it's something else. I don't know. Maybe that's too far off topic. That'll be for the
episode we do with
you right before I quit. We'll do it then.
Yes. I think it's the fear. There's that... It's the it's the burden of responsibility
Yeah.
As being the caregiver, the the parent to keep your child alive.
Let everybody And I let everybody down. Like Yeah. We... I'll share something, like, reasonably personal, but I I talk about enough on the podcast that Kelly and I are thinking of moving as, like, when we retire. Right?
But we're not gonna... We're thinking of moving and then working and then retiring. Not like I'm trying to retire right now. I'm too young for that and not interested. But we spent last weekend looking at possible places to live.
And we were in this one house, and I said to her, I didn't... I said, we were getting ready to leave. And I said, let me run back upstairs. I didn't see the room on the left. And I went upstairs, and I went into the room, and I thought, oh, this would have been a great bedroom for Cole when he was younger.
And it's not that I don't live in a reasonably nice house. I'm not trying to say that or that my kids came up in squalor or anything like that. Like, I'm certainly don't. That's not the case. But still standing there, I thought, oh, I let everybody down.
Like, I didn't make the possibility of this happen soon enough. Like, if I could have made this happen ten years ago, we all could have come and lived here together, but now because I didn't do that, he's 26 and she's 22, and we're gonna move away, and this isn't gonna be their center. And I messed up, like, the staging of my family to set up the last part of my life. Had that thought in a split second. I was like, oh, I did it.
I screwed up. I screwed the whole thing up. Like, I I I... Even though we're here now, I got here too late. I just...
I did. I showed up with the fire truck after the after the building was gone. I was like, I did. I'm here. And everyone's like, nope.
Sorry. House burned down. You screwed up. So, anyway, we go down... I go downstairs.
We go outside the... We get in the car, and she looks at me, and she goes, are you okay? And I said, I I think I was crying. And she goes, what's wrong? And I was like, I let everybody down.
And she's like, what are you talking about? And then I told her and she's like, you're out of your mind. And I was like, I'm like, no. I'm like... Anyway, there's...
It's... Whatever that feeling is right there, it... I've I've had it so many times around diabetes. I can't I can't count all the different places where it's existed. And at the same time, I can also count one more time that I overcame that feeling.
Right? Like, oh my god. I almost could... When I got to that room and she wasn't dead, I was like, I didn't almost kill her. I slept through the night.
This is ridiculous. And then I hear old heads talking about, you guys, man, we live without these things forever and blah blah blah, and you don't even know. Like, I... Everything's fine. And and I thought there's gotta be some blend in there of everything's probably gonna be okay because we've done a lot to get ready for this, like, preplanned.
We'll still be vigilant. But if something does go wrong and this is the leap you have to make in your head, I think as a parent of somebody in this situation, said if it really does go wrong and I have done everything that I could have done, it's not my fault. Like, I didn't let my family down by not being able to move ten years ago. Right? Like, I...
That's crazy. When you get to that place, it's so, I don't know, relieving. Like like, I'm happy to be in that place with diabetes where I I can firmly say out loud, I do everything I can to stay educated, to help Arden, to be ahead, to put stuff on her that'll help her. And if something should go wrong, it is... It's not my fault.
And it's not her fault. It's the circumstances. Right? It's hard to think of it that way, but that's the truth. Having said that, probably nothing's gonna happen to her.
So what am I gonna do? Live my whole life tortured about like that? And, anyway, I don't know what what point I was able to give that part away, and I'm also not sure if I would be this thoughtful about it if something actually happened to her. But at least it's a fake it till you make it kind of a situation. And I don't know what making it means.
Like, I think the only success around being the parent with a child with type one, I think the only real success I'm ever gonna feel is if I die, and she's still alive when I die. I honestly think that's gonna be the only way I'm gonna feel good about this, is if when I'm closing my eyes, I look up and go, she's still here. And I'll probably, with my last breath, think, god, I hope that keeps going like that. And who's gonna help her? And that's...
I swear, like, that's just how it feels to me. So... And I'm fairly emotionally regulated even though I did cry in a house. It's not mine. Also, didn't really like the house even.
That wasn't even the point. So I think... I'm sorry. I've gotten this off track.
No. It's it's so... It's good, though. And I think that what it's like the the shame is so strong and the fear is so strong
Yeah.
That shame is just right there ready to to, like, knock on the door and inhabit your life
But is it is it waiting every five minutes if you're staring at the CGM like that?
Right.
Right. Which is why I tell people all the time, I set limits on that CGM. And if it doesn't beep, I don't look. You gotta get to that place. Anyway, I'm sorry.
I took I took you
out of No. That's good. And
I took out of your pace.
The the I do want to emphasize as you're sharing these anecdotes and and stories that the caregiver burden, I I do believe that it is. It's way harder to be a caregiver to a child living with with diabetes than a person living with it because of all of those feelings and thoughts and not being in the body.
Yeah. You have no idea. You're guessing about everything Yeah. All the time. Not just about the physical part, but about how they feel too.
You're guessing about the whole thing constantly.
The whole thing. Yeah. The whole thing. Right. So I just...
I don't know if I've ever said that before, but... I do
Thank you.
Believe that that is... Yes.
It's nice.
It is hard. Okay. So what what do we do next when this number, the data, or even the, all the things that you're looking at in the reports is a reflection of how you're doing as a parent. I know we've talked a bit about this around the sense of agency and autonomy, particularly in the beginning when you're trying to figure it out and you want to have a sense of competence, and it becomes not only how well you're doing, but how well you're feeling inside as a parent. And so when you look at the time and range percentage at the end of the day, which I would maybe recommend if you're doing that every hour or every day, maybe pulling back a little bit if you're able to at a certain stage.
When the number becomes a report card39:18
If you're noticing that feeling of, oh my gosh. They are in this percentage time and range. I did a terrible job today as a parent because you are doing the best you can, not living in your child's body guessing what they're doing and what they're eating and how they're interacting, particularly, you know, as they're at school. Yeah.
I... Can I just say that outcomes are not indicative of effort sometimes? And I think this might be one of those situations. You know, like, to look at the end and go, oh, the time and range isn't what I wanted or whatever. I'm a terrible parent.
Those two things are not connected. A terrible parent wouldn't know what the time and range was and wouldn't be looking. You know what I mean? So, anyway, your outcome is not your effort. It's...
Not in this... Not not not if you're putting in the effort. So it takes practice to get good at this. I... I'd also I'd also tell people, don't forget that you started with the tools and knowledge that somebody gave you.
And if they were not well taught or well considered, you're you're working with... You know, you're trying to you're trying to hammer in a a nail with a screwdriver. And then at the end, looking at the nail that's all dinged up and not in the wood and going, well, I... I'm I'm a terrible carpenter. I don't think that's the case.
So I'm... Yeah. Anyway
Yes. Yes. Okay. And what we talked about in the beginning is this... The illusion of control.
Right? Going back to what we said in the beginning that because you you can see it, sometimes we believe all the time that we should be able to control it.
Mhmm.
And we know that we can we can do our best, but we cannot completely control all things all of the time. And so we can have more data with the same uncertainty, right, of why... I'm doing this thing. Why is this not happening? And that reinforces that sense of...
But just because I can see it doesn't mean that I should have known what to do or I did my best, but I have this now data right there as opposed to, you know, if you're finger pricking, you finger prick, you wait two, three hours, and you don't have that that, like, minute to minute emotional feedback of how poorly you did in bolusing for that food. Right? So just... Again, I'm not suggesting looking less, checking less, not using it as data for... In making informed decisions, but noticing what that feedback is doing as you're seeing the number and you have more data, but you might still be experiencing that uncertainty.
Right? So you're... Might be feeling like, if I have all this information, why can't I make it better? Why can't I figure this out? And as we've talked about before, it could be a lot of different reasons of experience, time with living with it, education, knowing how to to make the tweaks if you need to, trusting the alarms.
There might be a couple different factors going on. But just going back to the basics of seeing the data, feeling like because I have it, I should know what to do. And that isn't always true.
Okay.
Moving on from that... Noticing that because we... Again, because we have this great access to data, we often go from... You use the word, you know, management. Like, you use the data to help you manage the disease better or in in tighter control.
Mhmm.
And often, we go from that management perspective to surveillance where, you know, you are... We are looking at it all of the time.
Yeah.
Because then it goes from, oh, I guess I... You know, we're still climbing after that meal. I'm gonna now correct, or maybe the the pump will correct, or I'm gonna give myself an injection or my child an injection to correct as opposed to that anticipatory, I'm I'm gonna make sure I'm gonna surveil the... All of this, and I'm gonna anticipate the problem. Does that Yeah.
Does that distinction make sense? Yeah.
Yeah. Of course. It turns into a... I I mean, you almost... You're lying to yourself about how much control you have over what's happening next to some degree.
I also made me wonder about this. I've had people on before who talk about, like, the gamification of the blood sugar Yeah. And how it leans into their... Like, what they actually enjoy and that a lot... There are people who come on and say that they really enjoy managing the blood sugar.
That if... That it it, like, hits their pleasure centers the right way. Does that make sense that it would do that for some people?
Yes. And for people who are maybe more... I don't know if the math minded is the correct word, but kind of in the engineering problem solving mathematician type brain.
We all hear what you're saying, Eric. And, yes, those people generally seem to be engineers when they say that to me. Yeah.
Or just kind of like minded in that way where it does... It doesn't feel like a a personal attack or an affront or reflection of who they are in their value, in their identity, and how they operate in the world, it is to them for some of these people that you are mentioning, maybe it is just data.
I... And I stole that idea from those people. Like, I want you to know that, like, the stories I told you about feeling terrible, they're a very real and longer part of my life than I wish they were. But also the way I feel now, I'm a 100% being honest about. Like, I do not...
How long the terrible part lasted45:10
I don't feel judged by diabetes or by numbers, and I haven't for a very long time. But it's not... I can't take credit for having figured out how to do that. I just listened to other people talking and thought, well, that's clearly not how I want to be. So I'm gonna have to just decide that this is not this is not a report card for me.
Plus, I've heard people for a long time say, you know, it's just a number. It's not a report card. But then you have that kind of feeling in your head. Well, like, well, it's not just a number because if that number stays there for twenty years, what it is is, you know, a pretty invasive eye procedure. And, like...
So you know what mean? Like... So you're like, it... It's not... It's disingenuous to say it's just a number.
Yeah. Right? And it's not wrong to say if you don't treat it like it's just a number, everyone's gonna be gone at some point. Like... So, like, there's a real...
I've never made that noise in the podcast before. You're all welcome. And... But, like, you know, like, both things are true. Mhmm.
At the same exact time. So I act like the numbers are important. And when they don't go right, I don't act like it's my fault. I can say that I've learned a lot along the times, and the times they don't go right, I guess I'm putting air quotes around that, when they don't go right, it's not as frequent. So in the beginning, when it's always not working out Mhmm.
I can see where you'd think, like, this is gonna be like this forever. And that's where the benefit of, like, of being able to step back and see it a more macro way would be valuable. There's no way to do that when you're in it in the beginning because it just feels like you're killing somebody all the time. It is literally what it feels like. I am not being heavy handed.
Okay? It just feels like you're killing your kid. And by the way, I've listened to adults who told me they stopped eating at times because they felt like they were killing themselves. And so, like, it... Because you're doing a thing, it's not going the way it wants, the outcome is what the outcome is.
You're you're understanding of what the long term effects could be from that outcome, and people just shut down. They don't know what to do, which is why the basis of this podcast is get your settings right, understand timing, understand the impacts of your food. Because I genuinely believe that most of the problems we talk about can be mitigated significantly by being well educated upfront. Mhmm. I just think that's how the world works in general, but I think it definitely works that way around diabetes.
Anyway, surveillance is... To get back to your question to your question, I do speak to people a lot who will kind of giggle through, I'm a very type a personality. And I'll say, what does that mean? And they'll say, I'm a pretty... I have a pretty controlling personality.
And it does lend itself right into this diabetes thing very quickly. Now with respect to those people's stories, they eventually will tell you the part where that started ruining the relationship with somebody, and they had to stop. So I... Again, I think hearing that up front might help somebody who's about to lean into that to say, okay. That's the thing I need to avoid.
I've heard enough stories from people that say that surveilling this thing is not the way to go. Anyway, those are my entire thoughts around surveillance. So
good. Like, the the experience of feeling like you're actively killing your kid when you're actively trying to keep them safe. Right? That experience in your body is so excruciatingly painful physically and emotionally. And that is where probably majority of all caregivers are when their children are diagnosed.
And and and then for people who are able to manage themselves in in the new stage. I know we always say it's, like, kind of, you know, in the early stages, but it can happen at any time. And what I'm also wanting to highlight is you are sharing that there is there is a boundary around that time period, like, that it it can feel like that's never going to end and that it's permanently chaotic and that you feel like you do need to surveillance or do... Be in surveillance of the blood sugar to try and, you know, stay ahead of that feeling of I'm actively killing when I'm trying to actively keep my child alive.
The season of hypervigilance has an end49:28
Listen. I'll oversimplify the whole thing. If you feel like that, go listen to the pro tip series and just understand it halfway. And six months from now, a lot of this will be alleviated for you. Not to minimize it or how difficult it is, but understanding how to use insulin takes away a lot of this.
And it also takes away wildly swinging blood sugars that make CGMs alarm all the time. Lows that you feel like are dangerous get, significantly... Listen. Go to juiceboxpodcast.com on the front menu. Right?
And there's a little survey there that you can take or there's the results of the survey. If you click on the results of the survey, you will see people report how there's... There are significant, like, frequent low blood sugars, how much fewer they have of them now after listening to the podcast than they did before. Like, you you can... There's ways to...
Like, I think sometimes we get caught in the wrong fights. You know what I mean? Mhmm. You know, like like, oh, my kid got low. They're always getting low.
This is our problem now. These are lows. And I think maybe the lows aren't the problem. Maybe how you got to the lows are the problem. And so, anyway, whenever you're falling in a hole, it's always smart to look back over your path and go, I wonder how I could have avoided this instead of how do I continually pull myself out of this hole.
And I don't know. I'm I'm sorry. Did that get preachy? I didn't mean for it to be. What's the next step, Jen?
No. Let's just take a look at number eight. Okay, Erica?
Okay. Okay. Yeah. Okay. And, yes, I think it's it's two things.
It's knowing how to when when you have the ability and time and energy, like, reconciling the two of I'm I'm just trying to keep my child alive to, okay. I'm gonna learn and teach myself how to avoid getting into the hole. What needs to happen simultaneously is that the grace towards yourself and and the insulin, as we've... I've said before. Like, we need we need both.
Mhmm.
Yeah. Sometimes we need more grace. Sometimes we need more insulin. But holding those simultaneously are are really important to navigate life with with diabetes.
I guess balance is important is what you're saying to me.
Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Okay. So this next point, I want to preemptively say this is not to pile on more blame or shame.
What your child reads in your reaction51:53
But when you're in a space to kinda step over and look at what the hypervigilance is doing for your relationship with you and your child. And this might be when they're eight years old. This might be when they're 18 years old. This might be when they're 28 years old. But just having that awareness when you feel like you are able to, noticing what does this constant monitoring communicate to them, to my child.
You might... You you are trying to keep them alive. You're trying to communicate, I love you. I'm keeping you safe. But they might perceive your actions or your words that something is wrong with them or that their that their blood sugar or their data determines whether everyone is okay around me is a big one.
Right? Like, my my glucose or my... You know, whatever numbers on the screen determines whether everyone is safe or calm around me. Again, it's gonna... I I don't want...
I'm not saying this to pile on the blame or shame as a caregiver.
Put it on me for a second, Erica.
Okay.
You and I have known each other a number of years now. Yeah. And I assume you've listened to some of the podcasts along the way. And I would tell I would tell anybody listening, you listen to this podcast from front to back, and what you will hear is somebody who has a deep respect for their daughter and thinks they're doing... And thinks she's doing a great job.
Go ask her what she thinks I think of her in diabetes because she'll say he doesn't trust me. That's it. I I... That that is the simple statement around what you were just trying to say. You are going to because I...
Everyone's going to put that person in a such situation over and over again that their only takeaway can be, well, that person is checking on me all the time because they don't think I can handle this. And maybe they can handle it or maybe they can't handle it. They're still gonna feel like you think they can't do it. And I don't know how to square that circle. I certainly don't know the answer to that because I because had I not done the things that I did, Arden would certainly be in a worse situation.
I think this one gets chalked up to... It's one of the parenting things that if you're a good parent, you're just not gonna come out on the positive side for yourself on. That's it. You just... You don't you don't get to win on this one.
You get to be the person who didn't trust them whether you did or not. And they're safe, and they'll get past that part. That's why therapists exist. They can go. That's when you hear somebody say, oh, go...
Have... Everyone has seen an older person at some point tell their child, why don't you just go tell your therapist? Like like, which which means you're welcome. I got you here. I'm sorry.
It couldn't have been a perfect ride, but, you know, go figure that out for yourself. I'm retiring. It's... I I don't I don't mean to make light of it. I don't think you're getting around it.
So, you know, good luck.
So much of so much of diabetes is... There's this exchange. Right? Of one thing for the other.
Mhmm. Now
from your perspective, I'm hearing you, you know, say that, like, she's she's safe. You know, she will hopefully not have any complications. Her lived experience is that you don't trust her in her management, And she might move through that and work through that. So that's kind of what the exchange is there. I think in...
Along the way, for not only for your relationship with your child, but also for yourself in having that awareness of creating the the emotional... Kind of the healthy boundaries around the emotional experience. If this is just an example of looking at the number and you thought you pre bolus enough or you didn't pre bolus, you forgot, you tried to correct. And you're looking at the number and verbalizing to yourself, well, you know, we we missed the mark on that one. We'll get it next time.
I know I know it's really oversimplifying and hard to do all the time.
Also, sometimes they just ignore it, and you have to call it out sometimes too. You can't just always go, oh, I guess every... It's okay. Like like, sometimes you have to be like, hey. The hell?
Like, just bolus for god's sakes. Like, it's been like that for two hours. Like, what are we doing? Like, it... There's some...
Listen. There's a mix. I'm not saying that this is the end of our story. I would also tell you that I feel... I hate saying that I feel grateful for things that I've that I've worked for, but...
Okay. I I feel grateful that as my kids are getting older, they're still around a little bit, and they're still listening to us, and they're still talking. Because I am now seeing what I think of as another part of parenting that I don't know that everybody gets to be involved in, but the part where they're adults but we're still together, and they start doing the, like, oh, okay. That did... That was for a good reason.
Like, do you know what mean? Like, I like that we're together for this part too. Because I think if you... If your kid feels that way about anything you've done, and then at 18, you're like, go to college and they go to college, then four years later, they move into their own apartment, you never really get to get together again. And you go from being, like, at the end of parenting where you're just getting into that age where they start looking at you and think maybe you don't know what you're talking about and you're on the end of senility, like, on its way.
Right? And then the next time they see you, they're adults and you're actually six years older and you are on your way to senility. Okay? And then they just think of you as an older person. Person.
Like, I love this time right now where we get to work through this stuff because trust me, I'm making inroads on helping Arden to understand that it is not that I don't trust her. Like, she was just in a situation. She was walking the devil's dog all day long. Right? Like...
And I was the one going like, hey. Make sure you stay away from it. Like, you know, like, it's... Don't pet it that close, like, that kind of stuff. And sure, you get to see it as, like, anytime your parents help you with anything, it feels like, oh, they don't trust me.
Of course, that's what it feels like. Everyone... Just take a second, think about your own life. That's what it feels like. And then you get indignant and go, I'm trying to keep you alive or, like, you know, like, that kind of thing.
That ain't good either. Keep that yourself. And, like, you know, like... So I just like that we're... I don't think...
I'm sorry. I just started that sentence three times. But, like, I take seriously the idea that a person's brain's not fully formed until their mid twenties. And I tell you that I think we have time in their early twenties if you're together with them and have a nice relationship where you can continue to mature together and be a part of that process instead of them off in the world having it by themselves and then coming back and applying it to your old later. So I'm...
I think that's going well for us here. I certainly think there'll be a day where Arden will say, like, I think my dad did what he needed to do. For the moment where I take my solace is that my daughter, when she is not paying attention to her diabetes at all, has a six five a one c. So I win. That's all I hear.
And she wins because, you know, all the reasons. And when she is when she is drilled down on it, I see that a one c goes right down to, like, a high five, a low six. And I think she knows how to do this. She knows how to do it when she's got all of her attention to give to it, and she knows how to do it when she doesn't have almost any attention to give to it. And that makes me feel really comfortable.
Mhmm. So... And if she has to hate me when it's over, I guess okay, but I don't see how that has to be. I don't think... Like, I see...
I hear people say... You must hear people say that a lot. Right? Well, I do what I do. If they hate me, they hate me.
At least they're alive. I don't want that. Like, that's not what I'm shooting for. But if that ended up being the case, I wouldn't be happy about it, but I would still think of it from a parenting perspective as passable. I wouldn't give myself an a, but I'd give myself a c.
I'd go, hey. They're alive. Nobody's doing meth. Whoo. You know what I mean?
Meth is my line, Erica.
Yeah. It is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. I just don't want them to bar? I just really don't want them to lose their teeth because I think there's no way that people aren't gonna see them without teeth and blame me. You know what I mean? So Oh my gosh.
So, yes, I think there are... Going back to the first example, are there moments as the the caregiver to an older child that you... Where it's definitely appropriate to intervene, not just be like, well, you missed the mark. Let's let's try again. But also when your child is younger and you are wanting to work on regulating your nervous system to model that too.
Like, oh, we missed the mark next time. We'll do we'll do three units instead of two. Mhmm. And so you also are saying to them, we need... We we could have made an adjustment.
You're saying to your nervous system, but I'm okay. And it's not a full experience of blame and shame every five minutes.
Yeah.
So just even verbalizing out loud, not only for for your child, but for yourself and your nervous system. Right. But, yes, there are certainly times where we just need to say... We need to correct.
Finish up strong, Erica. I'll be quiet. Okay.
Okay. So what we want to... Yes. Obviously, the whole goal isn't to check less. It is to be aware of what is happening in your nervous system.
And so as we are inviting you to think about, can I? Can you create space between looking and checking? And whether it's literal space, you know, like not looking every five minutes, but every 10. And up in... Hopefully, you do have alarms set where you can trust that you will hear them and that you don't need to surveillance the numbers every five minutes.
Then in that time period, you can ask yourself some of these questions. What am I checking for? Is there something I need to respond to? Or am I checking because I feel anxious? What am I hoping the number will tell me or give me?
Will checking change what I do right now? Can I tolerate not knowing for a little while? Right? And then we've talked about different ways before of setting a timer, distracting yourself with some... Whatever it is about work or some chores, something fun, do a dance.
I don't know. And in that five... And it sounds maybe very simple. But in that five minute period of time, you're building... Your nervous system is able to build and kind of reset trust with the alarms
Mhmm.
And increasing your tolerance of not knowing.
I would also say, ask yourself, how would I feel if my mom was doing this to me? And by the way, know I shouldn't have just directed that at moms, but I've had a couple thousand conversations. And this is not frequently something I hear guys talking about. So once in a while... And it's usually anxious guys when they talk about it.
I will be a 100% honest. But, like, say to yourself, like, if somebody was treating me this way, how would I feel? That's how they feel. I have to regulate myself. Like, go see a therapist.
You know what I mean? Like, don't... If you're having the feeling of, like, I can't just not look at this thing for five minutes, I'm gonna just tell you that's not diabetes. Okay? That's something else.
And to... You know? I don't know. Find out what your co pay is. You know what I'm saying, Erica?
Or maybe
Well, yes. And I
They're microdosing those drugs now too to take the anxiety away. Very effective.
Yeah. Yes. And... But there there is probably a time and a season and a space for when it feels like you you have to. So, again, this is in a time period where you feel like things are are stable enough and your body and your mind is trained to keep looking and checking Mhmm.
And and noticing that, you know, you have when you have the information, it is not always instruction. Sometimes it is. Right? Like, you need to treat the low. You need to correct.
But it doesn't always mean that you have to do something. Mhmm. And I think that's just an important thing to note too. Okay. So shall I keep going?
Finish up. Go, yeah, like, run run right through the tape, as they say.
Okay. So I invite you, what is it costing you as the caregiver to feel that responsibility for everything you can see? And right now, maybe the cost is worth it because you feel like you you have to do that to keep your child alive. And so giving yourself that grace even right now, if that is... If this is how you are operating, it is totally understandable.
But, also, we know that it might not be sustainable for for you and your body and and also the relationship with your child. And so if you're noticing, gosh. This... You know, the technology that's supposed to give me peace is making it harder, and I can never put my phone down because I feel like I have to have this number and knowledge. And so what we are not suggesting again is to become a less attentive caregiver or to check less or to not look at the numbers.
It's to eventually, when it... When the timing feels appropriate, to become more regulated and to notice the numbers, notice... Listen to the the alarms, pay attention to the CGM without being consumed with it or by it rather. Mhmm. And and one...
Just one last thought that regulation isn't the absence of worry. Right? Like, the goal isn't to not have anxiety. The goal isn't to not be worried. We all live with that.
It's a normal, natural response in life, but also with diabetes. Like, we wanna have a little bit of worry and a little bit of, you know, preemptive attention to it. But we wanna shift from feeling controlled by that worry and data to regulate your nervous system to feeling more empowered, like, going to that perspective. Like, this is giving me data to make shifts as opposed to this is giving me data that is either calming or aggravating my nervous system.
Yep. Excellent. You know what I love most about working with you is we are both people who look away from the camera while we're thinking. So I know we're never offending each other when we do it. But I imagine if you recorded us, what it would look like is two people actively trying not to look at each other while they're talking, but that's not the case.
It's fantastic. You, like, you look up into your mind. You look off to the side. I look down and away a lot while I'm talking. And I and I know I Yes.
When I do it with other people, I'm like, oh, they think I'm not looking at them. I'm like, Erica knows. This is awesome. So
Yes.
I love that you put this all together. Thank you. I hope I was in some way valuable in the conversation. I never am a 100% sure. But I really do appreciate this.
I think that, like like we said earlier, just very simply, I don't know that I've ever seen something that is so incredibly valuable and so potentially dangerous all mixed into one thing before. It is really fascinating. But I do think that this conversation dug dug out the reason why it is that. It is because it is not a thing you can actually ignore, and it is a thing you cannot let make you feel the way that we described here. And so the job to me is is is to, again, to reiterate, is to find a way to take that data and turn it into empowerment and not something that's judging you.
If you can do that, I think you're gonna be fine. So that's all I got for you.
That's good. Yeah. Great summary.
Rio will probably be fine. I... And, honestly, I I shouldn't have sounded sarcastic that way. Let me say something. I've been at this a long time.
I have felt every way you can imagine in the last twenty years of Arden having diabetes, and I'm fine now. You really will be okay. You just gotta stay in the game long enough to get enough experience to where you wake up one day and go, I know how this is gonna go. And then you can just trust that what you know is gonna happen is gonna happen. And then everything just kind of, like, I don't know, goes away.
You know what I mean? So free your mind and the rest will fall. That was about it.
I can't... I I wanted to follow-up with the next line, but I couldn't Yeah.
Free your mind and rest will fall. Be be color blind and something to them. I don't know. I don't think you're allowed to sing on YouTube. So...
Alright. Thank you very much. It's great to see you.
You're welcome. Thank you.
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