Scott Benner 7/14/23 Scott Benner 7/14/23

#950 Life Story

Lisa has type 1 diabetes for 45 years and her life story is incredible.

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DISCLAIMER: This text is the output of AI based transcribing from an audio recording. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors and should not be treated as an authoritative record. Nothing that you read here constitutes advice medical or otherwise. Always consult with a healthcare professional before making changes to a healthcare plan.

Scott Benner 0:00
Hello friends and welcome to episode 950 of the Juicebox Podcast.

Today on the show, I'll be speaking with Lisa, she's an adult who has had type one for well over 40 years, and her story sort of unfolds over a lifetime and then takes a really shocking turn. While you're listening. Please remember that nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise, always consult a physician before making any changes to your healthcare plan, or becoming bold with insulin. If you'd like to save 35% on all your soft stuff, I'm talking about towels, sheets, sweatshirts, joggers pajamas, I can make that happen for you at cozy earth.com All you have to do is use the offer code juice box at checkout, you will save 35% off your entire order. Those of you interested in learning more about beyond the pod five or Omni pod dash, check out my link Omni pod.com forward slash juice box. And if you're looking for that new Dexcom G seven, or the G six dexcom.com forward slash juice box, don't miss the diabetes Pro Tip series. It begins at episode 210 Your player

this episode of The Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by ag one, I gave ag one a try because I was worried I wasn't getting in all my nutrients. And now I drink it every morning before I get my day started. You can to drink ag one.com forward slash juice box, get five free travel packs and a year supply of vitamin D with your first order at drink a G one.com. Forward slash juice box. Today's episode is also sponsored by touched by type one, learn more about this great organization at touched by type one.org. And you can follow them on Facebook and Instagram. I'll be speaking of their big event in September, go find out more about it on their website.

Lisa 2:17
Do you hear that on your recording?

Scott Benner 2:19
If you need a drink of water, you should just drink your one. Don't you were okay, but I but I have to say, I very much appreciate you asking.

Lisa 2:30
Well, I hear like I know it disturbs you when there's background noise and this kind of thing. So

Scott Benner 2:36
I hear it. Well, we put up an episode today that was had to be recorded. wherein I was sick. And the person I was recording with was sick. And it took if you could see the raw file about where the like you know, sometimes just dead air like you're not speaking right now. And when I go back and look at the recording, it'll probably be quiet where you're not speaking but I'm recording two different tracks of audio, my voice and your voice are being recorded separately. Okay, and so for the most part, you just leave the dead air and it sounds fine. This thing where she was sick and I was sick. I must have cut at it for like 90 minutes yesterday. And it just looks like Swiss cheese because every time one of us stopped talking, we were like breathing heavy or coughing or, you know, oh my god, the fact that you won't know that when you listen to it is is magical, almost. But

Lisa 3:35
anyway. Well, I think you must have some supersonic hearing too. Because a lot of times in the podcast, you'll complain about a noise that I never heard. So

Scott Benner 3:46
I deaden it or cut it out, even if even if I leave it in for you to hear it if if it flows with the conversation, so I don't want people to be listening then suddenly they have themselves shocked with I don't know. And there are just things that like people who click before they speak. They're like, I'm like they do that. That makes me cry. I try not to know you I'm sure you want most people don't do it honestly. But every once in a while you get to somebody who does and they're just every they think and they think while they're like drawing up their tongue and then they go well, and I'm like, oh god, stop that. So. So we're all good. Go ahead and introduce yourself.

Lisa 4:26
Okay, Hi, I'm Lisa. I'm 64 years old, and I've been type one for about 45 years now. diagnosed when I was 1819 7764 years

Scott Benner 4:41
old diagnosed at 18. You've had it for 45 years and 70 Lisa when I was six years old. Wow. Baby sadly.

Lisa 4:51
I graduated from high school in 1976. The bicentennial year. That was the big thing when I graduated. Oh, we're the Bicentennial class. And so, yeah,

Scott Benner 5:05
that ended up meeting a lot in your life.

Lisa 5:08
Not really. But you know, it's on my yearbook the Bicentennial class, you know, it was a big deal back then, for some reason,

Scott Benner 5:16
well, well, you know, my remembrance, I was much younger, obviously, I was like, gosh, five years old, maybe. But that it was like, it felt like a nationwide celebration in a world where there was no anything else. Yeah, I mean, like, if everybody decided to get in on a big day where fireworks should be shot, and people would use, you know, streamers and everything, and it would happen, you know, pretty naturally, it just felt huge to me, even as a little kid. Well, yeah, probably to you. You were just like, let me get out of high school here.

Lisa 5:50
Right? No, I was excited. I was excited.

Scott Benner 5:53
What were you thinking you were gonna do after high school?

Lisa 5:56
You know, I didn't know I honestly did not know, I knew I had to make money, because I was pretty early on on my own. And so that kind of has been the direction of my life, you know, I need to make more money. So I need to do something else. And, you know, it kind of has driven me throughout my life, you know, so and starting when I was young, because I had to support myself, you know. So, first, I took on a couple of, I worked in a bakery. And I worked in the liquor store right next door, so both part time jobs. And I had to work all the time to make enough money to pay my bills. And I was like, there has to be an easier way. And so that got me back to school. And I became a dental assistant, and did that for for quite a while. And then I went to nursing school. And then I became a nurse practitioner. So that's kind of driven me throughout my career. Why No, oh, no.

Scott Benner 6:58
Can I ask? At this moment, when you're graduating from high school? Do you have diabetes yet? Are you about to get it?

Lisa 7:04
I get it on my physical exam for dental assisting school. Okay. All right. So I go into my general practitioner, probably like late August, something like that, you know, right before school starts, and you have to get a physical to go to school. And he checks my blood sugar. And he said, it's your brother that has diabeetus, right? And I'm like, yeah. And he said, I think you might have it too. I'm like, what, you know, and, you know, looking back, just like so many other people on the podcast, you know, I had lost weight, but I was thinking this is a great diet. I'm on

Scott Benner 7:47
the whiskey and cupcakes.

Lisa 7:50
Wow, it's paying off all those donuts I hate and I'm still losing weight. This is amazing. You know, and I have lost probably 20 pounds. I'd always been a little bit overweight, like say in high school. I was maybe 165 foot six, so a little on the pudgy side, but I was feeling good about all of it. And then he said that. And so I lived in Massachusetts at the time in Boston. And so I grew up in Andover, Massachusetts, a little town outside of Boston, and Joslin clinic is in Boston. So I get sent there. I was there for an entire week of training, which I've since found out from people on the podcast and people in the Facebook group. That doesn't exist anymore. I mean, Joslin clinic does, but it's like the quick one and a half day teaching were back then it was an entire week of residential. You live there? Yeah, they taught you what to eat. They taught you how to get shots. And, you know, I'm 18 So I'm there all by myself, you know, and it was a great education and a great resource to have in my area. You know, when when newly diagnosed, you know,

Scott Benner 9:04
hey, I want to go back and ask you a couple of questions. So your brother has type one diabetes?

Lisa 9:10
Yeah, he had type one diabetes. He is He was diagnosed at 13. So a little bit sooner than I was. And because we were a sibling match. Jocelyn clinic was doing all this research. That's what they do there. And so he and I were involved in a lot of research studies because we were siblings in the same, you know, family without any genetic predisposition. So nobody in my family had diabeetus and so that was really unusual at that time. And I think that looking back on it, I think that was the beginning of them, you know, coming up with autoimmune. You know, type one Diabetes

Scott Benner 10:00
like trying to see, they were trying to figure out where it came from because back because it was as simple as like, Well, does your grandmama have it? No. Well, then this is crazy that you have it like that. So that was the thinking back then I say

Lisa 10:12
exactly it was. So it was so unusual to have siblings in the same family without any genetic reference to it. So

Scott Benner 10:21
I'm so sorry. You said he had it. So is he Yeah, he died.

Lisa 10:24
Yeah, he died. He was 37. He had every complication in the book. And if you think back to technology then so I was kind of calculating it. It was like the late 60s when he was diagnosed. So I mean, I wasn't involved in his care, per se, my mom did all that she was a stay at home mom. But, of course, being on the outskirts of it, I it was part of our lives, part of our everyday lives. And so he was a hockey player. And so being an athlete, he was, you know, had this disease that kind of limited you physical activity wise, and you were, you know, taking shots, probably twice a day, I'm guessing in the morning, and at night, maybe he took shots, you know, and it was clear and cloudy insulin back then. So fast acting and slow acting, and you mix them up in a syringe, and I don't even know if he had a glucometer. Back then, you know, I'm sure he was doing those pills in a test tube and looking at colors and ketones and things like that. So I wonder I often wonder if he could have had all the technology that we have, right now, would he have lived a better life? Would he have availed himself up? But first of all being diagnosed? So so early on? And would he have taken advantage of it? And he could maybe still be alive today? You know,

Scott Benner 11:58
yeah, but I'm assuming also, the mindset must have been so much different. Because there's been enough people on here who are diagnosed at that time, who will tell you that they were basically just told, like, look, you're not gonna live very long. You know, I mean, there's a woman on here that was told not to get married, not to have children not to make a family, like don't even bother getting a job, like just just, you know, be a vagabond, and you know, flit around until your death, like, what is kind of the vibe given to them by medical people? So I wonder if your mom wasn't told that, too. And that it's possible. And I'm like, a self fulfilling prophecy at some point, too. Because you? I mean, obviously. I mean, I want to say, obviously, but they couldn't have been doing much right. If he only made it 24 years with it.

Lisa 12:43
Truly, yeah. But I, I'm guessing they were doing the best they could with what they had, you know,

Scott Benner 12:50
no, no, I would imagine. Yeah, just just, I mean, right, meaning what would have worked not, you know, what they were told, I don't imagine they were told anything valuable. Honestly.

Lisa 12:59
Well, and he played high school, he played hockey all through high school. And I remember that being an issue because he always had a jug of orange juice. You know, that's how they treated Lowe's back then was orange juice. And so he always had a jug, you know, that was sitting on the bench, and he'd be chugging it and, and playing hockey is a very physical game. And then, once he got out of high school, he, you know, played with his friends now. And again, they ran to the ice and they played, he loved playing hockey, and my dad loved playing hockey. And so they had that together. And then he got a job as a construction workers. So another very physical job, you know, and I think going through puberty with type one, it's tough, all the hormones, everything, you know, I was 18. So that part was was done for me, basically, you know, so, and I think a little more mature for me being able to handle all the responsibility of type one diabetes, as you know, and being on my own, you know, I mean, back then they just basically told you not to eat sugar. And take your two shots a day and you kind of went about your business, blissfully unaware of what could possibly happen to you. The fact that I've never had one complication is astounding to me. You know,

Scott Benner 14:24
yeah, we're gonna talk about that. So I'm just imagine your brother feeling low, doing a hockey game and then drinking enough juice to make his blood sugar 400 for five hours afterwards, and then that can only imagine Yeah, right. Then that cycle goes on and on and on. And that's probably how you then managed during the day and you know, we're busy telling people look, you don't have to eat all the Skittles if you open the bag and he's just randomly chugging orange juice, orange juice, by the way from the 60s and 70s, which must have been some good orange juice.

Lisa 14:58
I'm sure I'm sure the Florida concentrate.

Scott Benner 15:00
Exactly. Do you remember, it used to come frozen in that little tube? Yeah. Of course leaves and no one else knows what you're talking about. You know?

Lisa 15:11
Yeah, there always used to be a candy frosting on the sake. And, you know, it was a big deal. Yeah, we had it with every breakfast, you know, it was like a staple. You know, I'm gonna

Scott Benner 15:22
describe it for people who don't know. So the closest young people are gonna think of is like the tube that those cinnamon rolls come in those really crappy, like breakfast cinnamon rolls, or whatever they are. And so there's like a tube like that. And it was in your freezer. And it just had like this concentrate of orange juice in it. And then you would defrost it, put it into a pitcher and melt it with water and mix it up. And then that was your orange juice? Oh,

Lisa 15:49
yeah. We'd have to stir it with the wooden spoon in the glass picture. And then

Scott Benner 15:54
as, as time went on, I remember when they would it would show up in the grocery store, like pre pre mixed, I guess, you know, like, already ready to drink is the word I'm looking for. I thought of that as like that. That was the orange juice like rich people had. Right? Yeah, right. You know, these don't have to melt it and mix it with water and all that.

Lisa 16:15
Well, and the town we grew up in, we had a milkman and so you put out your you had this milk box, and he would come in the morning and deliver milk to your milk box. And being on the East Coast. You know, the winters were harsh and your milk is in is in your milk box. And it's all insulated, so it doesn't freeze. And some people actually got orange juice. We never did. We weren't rich enough fancy, but I always thought they were pretty rich to get all that.

Scott Benner 16:47
That's crazy. Okay, so my last question about your earlier life is I mean, you pretty freely said when we just when we started talking that you basically raised yourself. So what happened to your parents

Lisa 16:58
didn't raise myself, but to a point. So my parents got divorced when I was probably somewhere between 13 and 15. I said 13 for so long. But then in recent conversations with my sister, I'm like, I think I was older, you know. So your memory fades over time. But anyways, when my parents got divorced, my mom was a stay at home mom, she kind of grew up in a culture that your husband comes first and your children come second. We're an Italian family. So divorce was just unheard of, you know. And my dad was having an affair with another woman, his secretary at work is what we were told, but she in fact, was a colleague, a co worker of his. And anyways, my mom just fell apart when she found out and she kind of stopped being a mom. So from like, say, 13 to 15, I pretty much ran the household. I took care of my sister who was six years younger than me. So at the time, maybe seven or eight. And yeah, I was like a mom, you know. So from then on, you know, she was kind of touch and go, she fell into a depression. She became addicted to valley on and Percocet. And it was a nightmare. You know, she was in and out of, you know, mental hospitals and this kind of thing. My sister went to live with my dad, and my brother went to live with my dad. But I felt like somebody has to take care of her who's gonna take care of her, you know, so I stayed in the house and took care of her as long as I could. And I think she really was my first patient, you know, looking back on it, you know,

Scott Benner 19:00
was it hard to leave her when you left?

Lisa 19:03
Well, she found somebody else, she found another man, and they got married. So I was like, hallelujah, you know, somebody took her off my hands, you know? And so I just wiped with my hands. And all of it just went on with my life. You know,

Scott Benner 19:18
there was an evening after my father left my mom that I saw my mom given up. And one night, she just broke out a bunch of like liquor that was in the house and started drinking. And my mom was just not a drinker. And I thought I was watching it happen. And I just, I don't know how long I accepted what was happening, but I stood up. I was only 13 or 14 and I took all the liquor and I dumped it out. And and I told her I was like we're not doing this. Like this is not happening, you know? So and She didn't drink after that. But she came from a family of alcoholics. And so I thought, Well, her father was I should say, and. And I was just like, No, no, like, this is not happening. And I don't know, I might have just got lucky or maybe she was really just gonna do it this one night. I have no idea. But I would say that watching my dad leave my mom is probably the reason why as an adult, because everybody who's been married knows like, there's a moment in I don't care, I really don't care who you are, there's a moment where you're just like, Am I really just gonna do this for the rest of my life? Like, is this into a fight or something or you know, you have a disagreement or a bad day turns into a bad week. And you I just couldn't do it. Like I could not be the reason that anybody felt the way my mom felt. Wouldn't war I couldn't bring myself to do that, you know?

Lisa 20:55
Yeah, yeah. And I think back then to you know, valley, um, and, and Percocet, all those mood altering drugs were just brand new, you know, so nobody really knew the effects of prescribing these kinds of things. And my mom became addicted to a very quickly

Scott Benner 21:20
I actually heard about ag one on another podcast, I started to use it. And I wasn't completely consistent with it. But then ag one came to me and asked if I'd like to do an ad for them, and I thought, Okay, I will. And I'll use this as an excuse to really try do it every day. And now I do, I drink ag one every morning when I get up. And you can too. When I first got it, I thought I don't get enough nutrients, like get my diet, this this should help with that. And it really has drink ag one.com forward slash juice box, get five free travel packs, and a year supply of vitamin D with your first order. Ag one is raising the standard for quality in the supplement category, and is a foundational nutritional supplement that delivers comprehensive nutrients to support whole body health. Since 2010. They've improved their formula 52 times in the pursuit of making the best foundation nutritional supplement possible. That happens through high quality ingredients and rigorous standards. Check it out, why don't you drink ag one.com forward slash juicebox. And if you just want to support the podcast and you already drink ag one, just get your next order at my link. So if you want to take ownership of your health, it starts with ag one. Try ag one and get your free one year supply of vitamin D and five free ag one travel packs with your first purchase. Once again, drink ag one.com forward slash juice box links in the show notes links at juicebox podcast.com.

Lisa 22:59
And my mom became addicted to a very quickly and that was her life for a good five years or more. You know,

Scott Benner 23:08
so she was a doctor was giving her that stuff.

Lisa 23:11
Oh yeah. General doctor, our little he came from Kentucky his name was Dr. broadest, I still remember. And he had this heavy Kentucky accent and they had no idea so of course, you know, make you feel better. Here's something for sleeping. Here's something for you know, take the edge off and all these things but you know, very highly addictive, you know, Yeah,

Scott Benner 23:34
crazy. I'm sorry. You mentioned other sisters are any type on with her?

Lisa 23:39
No, she she doesn't have type one. But she was diagnosed in her 40s with Parkinson's, so she's disabled. And then she recently got diagnosed with breast cancer. So she's had her share as well. But you know, they've always tested her along the way and she's very aware of it. But never never had any issues with that.

Scott Benner 24:02
No. Now looking back in hindsight, I know your mother, your father, was there any autoimmune stuff with them or grandparents anything you can see now that you know better how to look?

Lisa 24:12
No, my grandparents lived into their 90s My grandmother did have terrible rheumatoid arthritis. So and I think now that is considered auto immune. And she was literally in her wheelchair when she when she passed away, because she couldn't walk anymore. So So there was that? I think on my dad's side, there was some type two but really no

Scott Benner 24:39
looking back at a call the era the string there.

Lisa 24:43
Yeah, my my dad died early on to he was only 46 and he died of leukemia. And so people in my family have died relatively young. I mean, my brother at 37 My dad at 46 My mom was 72. She had a bowel perforation and died that way. And it's just me and my sister. That's all I have left.

Scott Benner 25:07
Wow, that's really I know. Yeah. Geez, I know you don't realize the things that can get you when you're older. My mom had like diverticulitis once, maybe, I don't know, six, seven years ago, and where my brother and I took her to the hospital, and we were waiting outside. I said, you know, this could easily kill her. And, and he's like, what? And I was like, I'm telling you, man, it was like, this is this could be it, you know. And then she, it took her six months to bounce back from that was so interesting to watch. How that, just that that thing three days in the hospital couple of weeks to recover, and then it just like it turned her down. I don't know another way to say like an aged or very quickly,

Lisa 25:49
right. That's how my mother died. She had diverticulitis too, and she had a bowel perforation. And there was nobody there with her. And like three days later, Somebody's knocking on her door She's not answering. So they police went in and there she was totally septic. In her bed. She was barely alive. And you know, she's in the hospital and my sister and I are there and the doctor said basically, you know, we've tried to cure the infection, but it's too far gone. And we can't do anything for her. So, you know, between my sister and I, we decided, okay, you know, it's time to let her go. You know,

Scott Benner 26:29
being alive is really weird. It just really is. Okay, so you are. You're back there. You're making donuts. You're selling booze. You're like, I can't keep doing this. I can't even pay my bills this way. And then tell me again, you go to school for dental assisting, by the way does your do you need to connect your transmitter to your phone?

Lisa 26:53
No, I have this. Let's see. That not the sound? What sound is the sound? Yeah. Yeah, I hear it every time on your podcast and like, Oh, there's the sound.

Scott Benner 27:03
It makes me feel like you started a new Dexcom sensor and it's waiting for you to pair it to the phone. Is that what's happening now?

Lisa 27:09
So it's out of range. My range is set at 7110. And I'm right now 140 701

Scott Benner 27:14
That's, that's the alarm you have set?

Lisa 27:17
That's the alarm. I have set? Yeah. So I recently had to go to jury duty. And so they're they're questioning the jury to pick a jury for this trial. So I get selected for a trial. And everything's quiet in the courtroom. And there it goes. be big. Like, oh my god, this is gonna be awful. Oh, my goodness. You know, even if you turn the sound off on your phone, or turn it down, it still beeps like I turned my phone off my sound off and you can still hear it.

Scott Benner 27:49
You get the vibration then.

Lisa 27:52
So I had to tell the bailiff you know, this is something I mean, I have to have it. So, you know you guys are just gonna have to bear with me. And he's like, Oh, that's okay. That's

Scott Benner 28:02
anyway. Oh, so you change the sound for so that's your high alarm sound and are on Arden's phone. That's the sound that means pair the sensor on the G six, which, oh, how interesting. Yeah, pair the transmitter but a new transmitter, which none of this is gonna matter. With G seven, by the way, because the transmitters and sensors are all going to be one, one piece and they'll just throw them away every 10 days. Crazy.

Lisa 28:24
I can't wait. That's gonna be great. How long do you think it's gonna take for us to get it?

Scott Benner 28:28
Well, I mean, it's in parts of Europe now. I'm yeah, I'm guessing. I'm guessing inside the first quarter of 2023. Okay, yeah, that's my guess. Nice. Okay, so Alright, so you get to I'm sorry, dental assistant schools that right?

Lisa 28:48
Dental Assisting school. So you work in a dental office, and you're like, the person that does you sit next to the dentist or on the other side of the dentist between the patient is between you and the dentist? And so you're doing sectioning. Maybe you're mixing amalgam for fillings, maybe you're mixing, you know, paste for something else. You clean the equipment, you get patients seated and put the bibs on and do all that stuff. So I did that I worked in periodontal practice, which is a gum surgeon. So I did that for a good five, six years. And then I got to thinking, you know, for the rest of my life, I'm going to be working on people's smiles. I mean, like you were saying, is this what I really want to do the rest of my life, you know, and I was making, I think $1,200 a month at the beginning and still $1,200 A month later, and it's a small dental practice, which is like a small business, you know, they can only afford to pay you so much. So I felt like it was Uh, go nowhere job, you know, as much as it was fun and I enjoyed being with people and the interaction and stuff. I'm like, I could do more, you know. So I decided to go to nursing school. And I by that time, I was living in California. So my husband now was a man I met at the bakery, he was a baker. Imagine a type one was a baker, right? It doesn't seem to work. But anyways, I met him there. He was recently divorced. And he was only 23. You know, I was probably 20 at the time. And we started talking and working together, and I enjoyed his sense of humor. But I knew he was separated from his wife, and he had two children. So at 23 years old, he had two children, a house, a job, a career, you know, this whole thing. And I was like, wow, really impressed. He had done so much at such a young age. And then he asked me out. And I said, Well, you're separated. But does that mean, you're gonna get back with your wife? Because I don't want to be part of this, you know, after having gone through this with my dad, you know, I don't want to be the other woman, you know? So he said, No, I don't think there's any, any hope for this relationship. So, you know, I love children. So he had at the time, the kids were small. There were post toddlers, and I love kids. And so there we were, you know, going out and the kids doing stuff with the kids. And it was wonderful. But my mom was like, He's damaged goods. You know, he, you shouldn't be with him. He has children. And you're, you know, setting yourself up for a world of heartache. And this whole thing, of course, by then she was pretty much against the whole institution of marriage.

Scott Benner 32:15
By the way, please.

Lisa 32:18
Yeah, so anyways, she met her, but she didn't like him. And Tom was having trouble because his ex wife, my husband's name is Tom, his ex wife was seeing somebody else. So that's how their relationship broke up, too. So anyways, he couldn't handle that because the guy was with his children. And so he had a sister that lived in California. And he said, I'm really thinking about moving to California, to get away from all this and, you know, start new and fresh. And, you know, will you come with me? And I was like, No, I'm not leaving here. I just started, you know, doing my prereqs for nursing school. I was in night school, working all day, going to school at night. And then I would meet him after class, we'd go to a bar, have some drinks. And, you know, it was this, like burning the candle at both ends saying, yeah, and then February rolls around, which is like the worst month, if you're in a snow area, you know, Christmas is done, and people are kind of depressed, nothing to look forward to, you know, the days are cold, and, you know, whatever. So

Scott Benner 33:36
is this baby making time in Boston, Lisa?

Lisa 33:39
Well, so Tom mentions it again, moving to California, and I'm like, I know. So we pack our stuff. We hop in my Toyota Tercel. And we drive to California. And like, I didn't know where and we start calling people along the way. Like I call my job, hey, I'm not coming to work today or ever. We're moving to California. And they're like, whoa, you know, so when I talked to my mom, she was just out of her mind because not only was he going to California but going to California with Tom who was damaged bugs, you know. And so yeah, we moved in with his sister. I think we were there for maybe two weeks. He got a job right away and a bakery. And then I I got a job as a dental assistant in Beverly Hills. And again, a dental surgeon, gum surgeon same same kind of practice. Right. And then again, I was like who? Okay, here we are the two of us. And Tom's working hard. And you know, the money a baker can make is is limited. And you know, the the old days of a small bake shop and I Everybody goes to it. All that stuff, you know, big box stores come into play, and you can't sell things as cheaply as they can. And people don't really know the difference. And so, you know, his money making capacity is limited. So I knew that if we were going to buy a house, if we were going to have a family, if we were going to do any of these things that I dreamt of doing, I was going to have to make more money. And so back to school, I went and went to nursing school. And he told me, you go to nursing school, I will support you during nursing school, and you don't have to work. And I was like, Oh, my God, that's wonderful. Yeah, I'll do that, you know, we had a little apartment, you know, we didn't have a lot of expenses back then. And so I did, I went to diploma nursing school, which is a two year and you get a nursing license, you sit for boards, and you get a license, but it's the minimum amount of schooling, they don't even have the schools anymore. And then you can work. And so that's what I did. And I started working in a neonatal intensive care unit in Los Angeles. And it just built from there, I loved it. I loved being around the babies, I loved all the technology. I loved being with the people, my co workers were wonderful, it was a really small environment, and everybody was super close. And I loved the work. I've always loved the work. And so consequently, I stayed in the neonatal intensive care for my entire career, 32 years of nursing. And then I'm going to say about 15 years before I retired, I was thinking again, when can I retire? And thinking, Okay, I'm going to be doing this job for another 1520 years, is this what I want to do for that period of time, and my son was already, you know, grown, and, uh, you know, high school, and, you know, I just was like, No, I don't want to stay at the bedside anymore. And I'm in this communication bucket work. And there's a flyer for a scholarship to become a nurse practitioner, and they'll pay all your expenses in exchange, you have to work for them for two years after you graduate, pay it back. And I was like, huh, maybe I'll do this, you know. So sure enough, I applied and they gave me a full scholarship. And I went to nurse practitioner school while I was still working full time. And then I did that for another 15 years before I retired. And so I retired when I was 62. And I loved it. It was a great career.

Scott Benner 38:06
How, how many children did you and Tom have together?

Lisa 38:10
So we didn't have any together? Okay,

Scott Benner 38:12
so you said, Tom, you were talking about Tom's kids?

Lisa 38:16
Yeah. So Tom, Tom has to from his first marriage. And he had a vasectomy after his second child because he didn't want to have any more children. And when he got married, he thought it was going to be forever, you know, we all do, right. And so when he and I got together, uh, you know, I hadn't had any children. And that's all I wanted to do was have children. And so he could have his vasectomy reversed. So we did that. It's a micro surgery. And so they did that. And then his sperm was still kind of slow. And so we weren't getting pregnant, we weren't getting pregnant. So after maybe a year, year and a half of trying, we started to see a fertility specialist and I got on clomid, that's the first thing they try. And so And back then, you know, you have to figure this was early 90s. So like IVF, and, you know, infertility treatment was still kind of young, and not all that successful, but it was super expensive, too. And insurance wasn't covering it at all. So we struggled with that for quite a while. And when after eight months, I was doing like the, you know, relatively easy things to try. You know, the doctor said, Look, you're not pregnant yet. And you have two choices. Either you can try I in vitro fertilization, which was a 15% success rate. Or you can adopt, and you know, maybe these are your two options at this point. So I was kind of crushed. I was like, can we just keep on trying? Like, what how long do you do it, you're putting good money after bad. And so, between Tom and I, we talked about it. And I said, you know, I don't care where a baby comes from, you know, I just want a baby, you know. So we decide to adopt, we find a small adoption agency in Santa Barbara. And they're very, very nice. And we put it in our profile. And back then open adoption was kind of a newish kind of thing. And you kind of build a profile of yourself as a couple, you have this picture book, and the potential adoptive mother comes to the agency and goes through all these profiles and picks. Yeah. And so probably six months after we signed up, we get the call that somebody has chosen us. And I was just so excited. You know, we go to Las Vegas, which is not far from here, five hour drive to meet this, this girl, she's 28 years old. She has a 15 month old and she's pregnant again. And she knows she can't afford even the 15 month old, let alone the second baby that she's having. And so the reason why she picks us not because I'm a baby nurse, not because of any of those things. She picks us because Tom was a baker, and she likes to bake. So of all things to attract, you know, so that was wonderful. We got to know her. She's five months pregnant with a boy, I wanted a girl only because Tom had two boys already. But and I thought this would be something different. But I was

Scott Benner 42:09
ecstatic. Oh, it's something definitely so. Yeah.

Lisa 42:16
So we get to know her, we we spend time with her. And then when it's time for her to have our son, she says we can come to the delivery, Tom has to stay outside, but I can be with her. And so I did. I sat with her and, and as she's going through her labor, she's like, I think Tom can come in now. You know. And so we're both there when Zach is born, and it is the best day of my life, you know, the best day of my life. And he comes out and so beautiful. And I you know, you're afraid you're afraid that the adopted the the birth mother is going to say I changed my mind. He's such a beautiful baby. But she turned around and looked at us and said, Look at the beautiful baby I made for you. And I it still brings tears to my eyes. Because it was such a beautiful moment. And right that I knew she wasn't going to change her mind. She wanted us to have him. And it was the best thing ever. The best thing ever, and I know you're adopted. And to to be able to tell us that a story of how he was born. And what happened. And, you know, it's priceless. You know, and, and, you know, we took pictures of his sister holding him and, and all of us together. And you know, it was it was wonderful. It was it was wonderful. I could not get him out of that hospital quick enough. She wanted to have him circumcised. And I was like, Oh my God, that's gonna take another 12 hours. I just wanted to bring them home. I just wanted to bring them home. I'm so excited. And

Scott Benner 44:11
did you keep a relationship with her? Yes,

Lisa 44:14
yes. So we kept in touch with her. She we arranged this before he was born. When would she want pictures of him? So they suggested maybe once a year you send pictures and maybe give an update to the birth mother. And so that's what we decided ahead of time. And so and plus he had this biological sister to his half sister Alex, who was 15 months older than him. So they were very close in age and they look very much alike, though. Zach's birth mother said they had two different fathers. So anyways, we kept in touch with her and every February we would send her pictures. So We'd have his Halloween pictures as Christmas pictures, his school picture, you know, whatever else milestones happened that year, and she would get the pictures and if I had any questions about, you know, things with family history, you know, she would always fill it in for me and, and all of this, you know, so does he

Scott Benner 45:20
know? Does he does he's younger now How old is how old is that now?

Lisa 45:25
Okay, sack died. Zack died. I know. I know. I'm sorry. Oh my gosh, yeah, march 2020, Zach died of a drug overdose.

Scott Benner 45:40
We say you're gonna make me cry. I'm so sorry.

Lisa 45:45
It's so sad. Yeah, he I think he had some issues with his adoption, you know, over the years, you know, we would take him to see therapists, because he was a super smart kid. And his mind worked in a very different way. He could tell just by looking at something, how it was put together, he could fix anything. You know, he just had this really different mind. And he was super smart. We knew he was smart, right from the beginning. Because I didn't have any experience raising kids. He was my first. But you know, just comparing him to my friends children, or, you know, other kids in the school or whatever. I mean, he, he just was different. You know, he thought differently. And he, he was a super happy baby. And then I kept him home for the first year, I was able to stay home with him for six months, because I knew I wanted to have a child for so long. I saved up all my vacation time saved up all my holiday time, everything I had, so I could stay home with him. And so I was able to stay home for six years. And there are six years I wish six months. And then I had somebody come to the house and and stay with him for the first year because I didn't want him getting any sicknesses or anything. I was so protective. Because what I did for work, I only saw the worst of the worst. Yeah. So you know, you're very cautious with your own children. And so anyways, I sent him to a neighborhood daycare, he loved it. And he was so smart, that I thought there's no rush getting him into school. Tom was born in January, Zach was born in January, Tom was born January 2, and his mom he was the third of three children. So by time he came around, his mom was like this kids going to school as early as I can get him. But Tom always talked about being the smallest person in this class and, and the and, you know, socially immature. And so I thought I don't want that for Zach, you know, his birthday is January 22. Thompson's January 2. And so I thought I'll put him I'll wait another year to send him to school. But I'm not sure maybe I should have sent him to school a little bit sooner, because he was so used to that daycare that he loved, that his transition into school and all the things that you have to be acclimate yourself to, it was very difficult for him, you know. And then in his preschool, they had a Mother's Day tea, I remember. And they were doing a performance for the parents. And I taped the whole thing. And they were singing these songs and doing these gestures. Zach was singing the songs to doing all the gestures, but he was walking around the room while he did it. And all the other kids were sitting in their chairs, you know, so well behaved. And there was that, you know, marching to his own drummer, doing what what he was supposed to do, but doing it in his own sack way, you know, and this was really the story of his life. You know, everything was hard for him because he had to conform. You know, school was hard for him. He he was super smart. If you liked the teacher, if you'd like the subject, he would just a plus. If he didn't like the teacher, if the teacher was like my way or the highway kind of person, he didn't get along with those people at all. And so if he would get enough, you know, so Tom or myself was at the school every single day, because there will always be something, you know, whether there was a issue on the playground, whether there was an issue in the classroom, whatever it was, so we felt like we want the teacher to know we're on your side, were working with you, please, as a team, let's help Zack to get through this. And some teachers were really great about it, and some teachers, not so good, you know. So it was a struggle his his whole time. And I had the school of testing him, because back then to it was a brand new thing, ADHD. And so he was diagnosed with that early on. And the teachers were like, he can't come back to the classroom, unless you put him on some medication. So we started, you know, he started with Ritalin, then he went to Adderall. And he and you know, this is not a perfect system, these drugs are. They help. But over time, the reaction to it and the success with it wanes, they start a new medication, you know, he had been to doctor after doctor after doctor, I mean, I'm a medical person. So I'm going to find a solution to this, you know, and I had the school of testing him, they said, No, there was nothing else wrong with him. But I had no idea that if your child has something wrong with them, the school is kind of motivated not to find it, because then they have to accommodate it. And so somebody told me that when Zach was in high school, and I'm like, Oh, I had no idea. So I was thinking back to a therapist, and the therapist said, I think there's more here that we haven't found. So he sent back to what was it a neuro psychologist, forensic psychologist, and she did three days worth of testing on SAC, she produced this 60 page report. And she said he is a classic case of Asperger's. And so, it, it's a spectrum disease. Some people have very mild symptoms, some people have very debilitating symptoms. And so and it's a form of autism. And she said he's a classic case, he was in his last semester of high school when he got that diagnosis. And so I don't know if it would have helped us earlier on, you know, I don't think it would have changed much. But at that point, it made perfect sense to me once I did the research on it and reading the 60 page report. His IQ was 146. Which, I mean, I have no idea what my IQ is, but he runs circles around the two of us, you know, and I said, no wonder why he can understand what we're talking about. You know, he's in a whole different plane, you know. And so, you know, it explained so much about Zach, you know, and his birth mother would never divulge anything about his birth father, for some reason. She was very protective about him. And so only after he died. Did she tell us that? Who he was. And it's so interesting, because his name was his last name was Nelson, the, the the birth father. And my dad's name was Nelson. My dad hated his name. He said people used to tease him all the time and call him Nelly. So when Zach was born, I didn't want to call him Nelson, but his middle name is Nelson. And when we were trying to decide what name to pick for Zach, the three of us Zach's birth mother, and the two of us were trying to decide on names. And Tom and I had chosen Zakk, which his birth mother said, you know, that's, that's fine. I love that name. And I said, I'd like to name him after my dad, his middle name of Nelson. And she said, Oh, that would be wonderful. And then after Zach died, she said, I think I can tell you now that his biological father's last name is Nelson. And I was like, Oh my God. You know, so many things happen that you think are you know, where do these things come from? You know, is it all predestined? And I always told Zach, you were meant to come to us. You know, you were supposed to be with us because God knew I would never give up on you. And I never will. So I have

Scott Benner 54:42
to ask you is Tom with us still?

Lisa 54:45
Oh, yes. Thomas with us.

Scott Benner 54:47
Alright, so finally somebody's still alive. Okay. i It's interesting. How it Listen, I don't think it's any, any great secret when people are listening back to the SEC, I'm not saying much because you're, I am fascinated by looking at people's lives in reverse. And so you go back 45 years ago, and you're the one that nobody would have bet on. You don't I mean, and then you meet all of these people along the way, and create these bonds and have children. And I mean, go through all these experiences both very, like average, and, you know, I met a guy up to strange and, you know, it's something you don't hear about every day. And all those people, like fall off, in one way or another, but you're the constant somehow. Yeah, that's fascinating. You know,

Lisa 55:48
and I always said, through the struggle comes the growth. So, you know, in comparing my life with Zack slides, so when we had zack, zack, what I, you know, was such a treasure to me. I mean, I had waited for him for so long. And when he was born, like I said, it was the best day of my life. And so I treated him that way. He was a treasure to me, and it was my full time. You know, I'm gonna do the best I can to raise this kid, the best I can. I had so many struggles in my life. I didn't want him to have any of it. But then looking back, I think that's what made me the person I am. Yeah. So for Zach not to have any struggles. He hasn't had any experience with it. So he doesn't know how to problem solve it. So when he does have struggles in his life, he doesn't know how to do that. You know, I never allowed him to do it, because I was doing it for him. You know. So, you know, in Zach's drug addiction, Tom and I became very involved in Al Anon. And that teaches you to look at yourself, and see what was my part of it. And if I can put myself in a part of it, that would be the part, you know, I couldn't ever watch him struggle, because I could prevent it. He didn't have to struggle, not like me. He didn't have to struggle. So, you know, but, but the struggle is important, because the struggle makes you strong. Yeah. You know, so, a lesson to learn, you know?

Scott Benner 57:41
I didn't ask him anything about your diabetes. I mean, I just, you know, I sometimes I feel like people are like, Is there gonna be any diabetes and this diabetes? Yeah, but I don't I don't know. Like, to me, the background of the whole story is that you did all this with type one. And you're, I mean, how would you describe your health right now?

Lisa 58:04
I think I'm in great health. I mean, to have had type one diabetes for 45 years, to be diagnosed back when I was without technology, really. And to not have one single complication, I think is extraordinary. Yeah, you know, and, you know, I often get in the Facebook group, and will say to people, it can happen, you know, I think it was shit luck for me, but with my brother with every complication with me, without any complication, and I often say that, maybe Tony had every complication so that I didn't have to have any, you know, I don't know, I don't know the reason for that. Because, you know, far back to when I can remember a one sees coming into existence. I remember a WHMCS in the high nines. 9.6. I remember my doctor saying to me, Hey, you know, we gotta do something about this. And I'm like, okay, you know, I didn't really know much about it being a medical person too. First of all, in the field, in neonatal intensive care, neonates don't get diabetes, nobody is born with diabeetus. So it's, it just doesn't happen. There's a type of diabetes, that neonates can it's called diabetes insipidus, which is a completely different thing. But neonates do not get it. So I didn't have a lot of knowledge about it. And like I said, I was going along my merry way, taking my two shots a day, you know, testing my blood sugar first thing in the morning. That was it. Yeah. I mean, I didn't do anything. I think I was pretty good about not any sugar because I was afraid to eat it. And then with my brother with so many complications, I was like, I better listen to what they're saying, you know, and then when he dies, of course, I'm like, What could I do different, you know, and And I remember the doctor the endocrinologist saying to me, maybe we should think about a pump for you. I'm like, What's a pump? You know, and I had no idea about it. So I wasn't keeping up on any of it. Even though I'm in the field, I wasn't doing it, you know, it was a part of my life. And it's always been a part of my life, but it's not my life, you know. So, and again, it's not going to stop me from doing anything. And I oftentimes will respond that way, in the Facebook group, you know, you can do anything you want. diabeetus is not a reason to not do it, you know, you can find a way. And if you want to do it, you'll find a way. And, you know, I'm not a smart person. You know, I would say, my superpower, if anything is common sense. If it doesn't make sense to me, I gotta think of a way that it can make sense to me, you know, so even in school, I struggled, you know, I hated school. So going back to school was a big deal for me. And then going back when I was became a nurse practitioner, I hadn't been in school for 20 years. If it hadn't been for Zack, I don't think I would have made it through my master's program, because Zach was teaching me all the technology that I needed to get through that program, you know, and he was very into computers very into all of it. I mean, he taught me Microsoft Word. He taught me excel, he taught me all of these things that I had no knowledge of, and, you know, we had a home computer, but I wasn't doing anything like that on it, you know. And so, you know, doing a distance learning program to for my nurse practitioner license, I did that. And so everything was online. So you had to have great computer skills. And I would be every day, Zach, how many was a sack happy with that? So I told him when I graduated, this is for you, too, because I would have never gotten through it without you right now.

Scott Benner 1:02:02
How, what age did he start using when you look back?

Lisa 1:02:07
Yeah, he was out of high school. He, he was an Eagle Scout. He was not your typical drug addict. And, you know, I've since learned that, you know, drug addiction crosses all barriers, you know, and, you know, being a medical person, too. It's very hard for you to talk about these things at work. Because, you know, your kids should be better than that, you know. So there was a stigma to it for me as well. He used Cerner using dust off. Do you know what, just office? No, I don't know that you clean your computer with it. You clean your keyboard, it's a compressed air that comes in the can. Okay, so, so. So he would inhale that. And it would, I think the truest thing he ever said about his addiction, was that it turned off his mind. And I think for that 30 seconds that he was high and passed out, his mind was quiet. And I think that's the only time his mind was quiet. You know. So that's what he was addicted to. And he started using probably, in he died when he was 29. So I'm gonna say his early 20s. So he was out of high school. He was, you know, no peer pressure, none of that he used by himself, none of his friends knew he was using. We didn't even though he was using until one day, we found him passed out in his bed, and a can of dust off in his hand. And my husband said, What is going on? And then we started doing some investigation. And Zach is a very honest person. So we're like, you know, what is happening here? And he's like, I use it to get high. We're, what are you talking about? You know, neither one of us had any idea about right, you know, and I mean, smoked pot, like everybody else, you know, why you drink and like, like, I did, you know, I mean, why are you doing this, you know, and he just has a very curious nature about him. So I'm sure he tried it once. He loved it, and he just kept on doing it. So I'm gonna say he was in and out of rehab, probably five years total, and sober about two and a half of that five years. And then as soon as he would get out of the rehab, he'd be right back to using and then at the end, you know, of course it was during COVID and he died March 4 2020. And he it's very dangerous stuff this dust off because it it when you hold the can to spin If it gets very cold, and when you're inhaling it, your lungs freeze, and your brain freezes. So it's very dangerous, you could die. They say the first time you use it, you could die the 500th time you use it. And sure enough, he had used it a million times. And this time,

Scott Benner 1:05:18
I just never I've never heard of that before.

Lisa 1:05:20
I had never heard of it either. But it's very common. When you start getting into this world. It's all over the internet, about how people die with it, how they've started putting it under lock and key in certain stores. Because when Zach didn't have the money to buy it, he would steal it. And so and it's it's at every 711 It's It's so readily available. Every Walmart has it every target has it, you know, so he asked me once I was going to Costco, I don't know if you guys have Costco course. But I was going to Costco, I said, Do you need anything at Costco? And he said, you know, can you get me some dust off? For the computer? I said, Oh, is that they sell it in like a six pack there. We won't use that much. Just often a year. I had no idea. That's what he was doing with it. No, of course, I didn't get it because I was like, well, by Academy, we don't need a six pack of it, you know, and then later looking back on that I'm like, Oh, he was looking for a bargain. penny wise.

Scott Benner 1:06:31
That's, that's crazy. How did his birth mother react to the addiction? Did you ever tell her?

Lisa 1:06:38
Yeah, I did tell her. I was looking for connections. I was looking for connections that maybe she can help me with his birth father, maybe his birth father was a drug addict. Maybe he came by it naturally. Maybe this was something that he was predisposed to. I was looking for anything I could to try to help them, you know. And she was like, I, I don't know of of him ever using drugs or alcohol. So that was no help. But she knew about it. And I'd keep her posted on Okay, he's in another rehab. And, you know, he kept in touch with his birth sister on Facebook, because they they had a relationship. And so when Zach died, you know, we could only have 30 people at his funeral. We couldn't have any service for him when he died, which was very unfortunate, because, you know, the whole world closed down, right. And then so we waited a year and on his one year anniversary, we had a service, we could only have 30 people at it. But his birth sister came from Utah, she drove by herself and she came to his service. It was such an honor to have her there. I was able to take her back to our house. I was able to show her that he had all her pictures, and here's all the stuff from when we were looking through pictures of him growing up. And when Zach was 10 years old, he said, I want to meet my birth mother. And I said, Okay, you know, so it was spring break, and I got in touch with her. I said Zack wants to meet you. She said, Okay. And we hopped in the car, he and I, we drove to Utah, and he matter he spent three days there with her. And then he came home and he's like, I'm good. You know, the whole family smoked. He's like, I, I can't take it. There's so much cigarette smoke, you know? And he he could see, I think, Scott the life he would have had versus the life he had. And once he saw it, he was like, um, yeah, you know, and we still kept in touch with her. When he graduated high school he had, he had his high school graduation one day and his eagle scout ceremony the next day, because we had people from out of town coming and we're like, we're going to do it all at one time. And so I asked him, would you like your birth mother to come and and your sister to come? And he said, No, that's okay. That's fine. You know, so Okay. She didn't come and I invited her to come to Zach's funeral, but she didn't. She said, I don't think I can. She was just a mess. When I called her to say Zack was dead. She felt very guilty. She felt very, like maybe if she hadn't given him up for adoption, maybe things would have been different. Maybe if you know, we all do it, the what ifs? You know. And so the two of us share that bond with Zach she as being the person who gave birth to him. I mean, we we love him equally, you know, and so we can kind of share the grief to because she loves him just as much as I did. You know, he was a part of her and, you know, he she gave him up for adoption. And because she wanted him to have a better life. I mean, that was the bottom line. I'm so sorry. I'm sad.

Scott Benner 1:10:07
I was gonna say that he understood

Lisa 1:10:08
that about her. Yeah, he understood it. He never like, was angry at her about because because when we were together, I said to his birth mother, could you explain to Zack, why you gave him up for adoption? Because she kept Alex. So why did you keep Alex and not me, you know? And she said, Zack, if you were born first, I would have kept you. But I couldn't do two children. I could barely do one, you know. So I think he understood that. I think that was good for him to hear that from her. Right. You know, I,

Scott Benner 1:10:46
I only ever had a couple hour phone call with the sister of my birth mother, after my birth mother had died. And I honestly don't remember much about the phone call other than she told me that giving me away ruined her life. It just and I was like, okay, like, I don't know what to do with that, you know? Right. But is it just something she regretted forever, and it had had very bad impacts on her health. And so it's strange, because someone's telling you, for me, there were no pictures going back and forth or anything like that this was, you know, not anything, I had a connection with growing up at all. And so it's like someone's telling you a story about your mom, but it feels like it's a story about a stranger.

Lisa 1:11:33
Well, and I was gonna say that with Zack met his birth mother. It was like he was meeting a stranger. Like he would meet anybody else on the street. You know?

Scott Benner 1:11:43
Yeah. Now that I understand completely. Lisa? Yes. It's been really great. I, I, I didn't realize what we were going to talk about today. You wanted to, in your note, you said you just wanted to tell people to be hopeful and, and they could do anything with diabetes. So I think you said that. But without actually ever saying it. I want to tell you that the most unbelievable thing you said during this over our we were talking is that a Toyota Tercel made it all the way from Massachusetts to California.

Lisa 1:12:16
It was brand new, though, it was the first new car I ever had. And I had bought it on my own.

Scott Benner 1:12:22
I thought this story is certainly going to end up with them. Setting that car on fire in Montana somewhere. So just

Lisa 1:12:29
know. One thing I did want to talk about was, I love to travel. That was the reason why I really wanted to come on the podcast, because every day in the Facebook group, somebody is traveling for the first time with a type one diabetic, whether it's a child or themselves, or whatever it is, how do I keep the insulin cold? How do I do this? What do I have to pack? What about TSA? What about all this and we travel a lot. And I have made every mistake in the book. When it comes to traveling. The worst mistake was a trip to Indonesia. When we're on a 24 hour flight and two hours into the flight, I realized I have forgotten my insulin. It's in the fridge My God at my condo. And I was said to my husband at first I just like broke out in a cold sweat myself. And then I'm like, Oh, how do I even tell him he is gonna freak out. And so I like, Okay, I have to tell you something. I forgot my insulin in the fridge. She's like, What are we going to do? Lisa, what are we going to do? I'm like, okay, just calm down. I can write my own prescription. As a nurse practitioner, you have prescription privileges. So I have a prescription pad in my bag, I can write my own prescription, if I can just find a place to get it filled. You know, and the more I thought about it, the more I'm like, You know what, there's diabetics all over the world. It's not exclusive to the United States, you know, so the people who are in front of us in the plane overhear the conversation, and they're Indonesian. And so they turn around and they say, you know, there's pharmacies in the airport. You can buy insulin in the airport. I'm like, problem solved. You know, really, somebody got to the airport. Yeah. And they have some cockamamie type of insulin I never even heard of so nothing like came along, right. And at this point, I'm on a pump. And, and so I have I have all my pump supplies, but all I need is the missing link, you know? And so they said, No, you're going to have to go to a bigger Pharmacy, a bigger something. So we're on a connection. So we hop on the next plane because we have a couple connections to make and then And when we get to where we're going, we have a 12 hour layover. So we hop in a cab and go to the closest hospital. And we go into the ER and say, you know, I need some insulin, I don't have any, I'm type one diabetic. They're like, okay, they bring me five vials, insulin pans of human lug. And I said, How much is that? $32?

Scott Benner 1:15:26
Like, I'm saving money by leaving my insulin and

Lisa 1:15:29
$32 I'm like, Are you kidding me? You know how much this would cost in the United States? You know? And it was that easy, Scott, that's amazing. Went back to the airport and went along our merry way. You know, that's

Scott Benner 1:15:44
really something. Of all the stories. I didn't think we're going to end well, that was the one and all your other stories that's like, oh, this will be a nice story that it never was. Oh, my God. Are you okay? Lisa?

Lisa 1:15:55
I am. Yeah. I got I don't know, I think I I feel like, you know, all the things that have gone on in my life, have prepared me for who I am today. You know, if it wasn't for these things, I wouldn't be the person I am. I'm sure of it. No, no, I agree. And, you know, I

Scott Benner 1:16:20
but Lisa, why is the person you are not outside, passed out on the stoop? You know what I mean? Like, why did you not go in a different direction? I don't, because you're always helping other people.

Lisa 1:16:35
I'm always helping other people. I knew it was my calling. I knew helping other people was my calling. Because I always felt like I wanted to help somebody, like, like, my initial career choice was to become a social worker, I had had a lot of interaction with social workers over the years, because of my mom, you know, every time she went into a mental hospital, the social worker be like, I remember one telling me get out of that house. You know, you you need to go right. You know, and I was like, wow, that's interesting. You know, I'm telling me that. And so I wanted to become a social worker. But then when I saw how much money they made, I'm like, oh, no, no, I can't do this. You know, all of our social workers, they have master's degrees, and they get paid so poorly. You know, it's terrible. It's like teachers, you know, they deserve so much more. So, no, that wasn't even an option. For me. This is so that

Scott Benner 1:17:32
personality, though. Like, I mean, there's, there's enough, there's enough bad things that happened to you, that if you were on here to say, Look, I'm a bit of a mess, you know what I mean? And I'd be like, Oh, I understand. But instead, it's not. I mean, like, we've been talking for over an hour, you were diagnosed when you were, you know, 18 your family had fallen apart. Your mom was a ward of you, your siblings were moving out or had diabetes and and then is it adult, you have diabetes, then your brother dies from it? And, and you keep going you meet a guy who I mean, is 23 and already has two kids and leaving his family and like somehow you made that work? And and then you you can't have a kid and you try those things. Then you adopt a son and then he has the craziest addiction I've ever heard of in my life. Like the oddest thing. Like you didn't say heroin, you didn't say cocaine, that you were like, you were like this stuff you dust your keyboard off with which by the way, I don't know if everybody knows he just turned the keyboard upside down and shake it a little bit. That works fine. And so that happens and then there's this all this is just compounding, like you go back to school and you build on top of being a shaky start at best, right? Not for nothing, but every girl I know works at a dentist's office is a little wacky, but you seem okay. until like, just, I don't and you don't even know why. That's the part that freaks me out.

Lisa 1:19:04
I don't know why. Just like I don't know why I never had a complication from diabetes. I don't know why. No, I don't know why. But it is my personality. I mean, I'm a middle child. So I'm a fixer. You know, and my nature. I am just dumb luck. Yeah.

Scott Benner 1:19:24
You're all trying so hard. just dumb luck. Just hope for luck. I mean,

Lisa 1:19:28
yeah, really? I have no explanation for it. I wish I did.

Scott Benner 1:19:32
You should be running in circles, screaming and banging your head on the wall. And instead you're like, I love to travel.

Lisa 1:19:39
I love to travel. Yes. In my retirement. That's what we've done, you know. And so my longest trip was I did with my husband 530 miles through Spain. Last September, October, we we backpacked and did the Camino de Santiago. And so I had to pack 60 days worth of Pump supplies, glucose tablets, you name it, the whole thing, you know, and that was the one trip, nothing happened, I was so well prepared for it, you know, many of these trips, you know, when you're full time working, you save up all your time. So you're working the night before you're working, you know, right up until the second you go, you know, and so that you can have all that time for vacation. So preparation is not part of the equation, you know, so you're doing it last minute, and that damn insulin being in the fridge. You don't want to take it out to the last minute because you know, you're going to be 24 hours on a play, you know? So, yeah,

Scott Benner 1:20:40
yeah, I just, I want to be you. I think everybody listening wants to be you. I want at least your I don't know, there's I don't know. I don't even know how to quantify it. Please do we got to find a way to put you in a bottle and, and so we can spare you on people. I have no idea what to say. It's good for you. I mean, congratulations. Yeah. I really, I really do appreciate you coming and sharing all this with me. Thank you.

Lisa 1:21:03
Thank you. It's a pleasure being here. And I love listening to your podcast and

Scott Benner 1:21:07
I'm glad that's so nice. Thank you. I, I listened. You made me cry when you said them. When you said Zach's mom picked your husband because he was a baker and she liked to bake. I got all filled up and I thought Oh, that's sweet. This will be the emotional pinnacle of this episode right here. And then Jesus, you just I don't know, Lisa. I swear to God, you're you're amazing. So thank you very I just seriously, I'm babbling but I appreciate you coming on and doing this very much.

Lisa 1:21:34
Oh, thank you. My pleasure. My pleasure.

Scott Benner 1:21:44
Hey, a big thank you to Lisa for coming on the show and telling us that incredible story. I also want to thank ag one and remind you to drink ag one.com forward slash juice box. Use the link get started today. Get the free five travel packs and the year supply of vitamin D with your first order and drink a tea one with me every day. Let's drink together, shall we? If you're looking for community around type one, or type two diabetes, check out Juicebox Podcast, type one diabetes on Facebook. It's a private group with over 40,000 members. There is a conversation happening right now that you will be interested in or that you can help with. Thank you so much for listening. I'll be back very soon with another episode of The Juicebox Podcast.

#949 After Dark: Dead Frogs

Katie's story of living with type 1 diabetes for nearly two decades. Despite her challenging upbringing and lack of support, Katie has found ways to improve her health and take control of her diabetes.

+ Click for EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Scott Benner 0:00
Hello friends, and welcome to episode 949 of the Juicebox Podcast.

Sometimes I have so much trouble recording these. This is one of those times Katie is an adult she's had type one diabetes for nearly two decades. She grew up with a mom who was suffering, and she did not have a ton of help from her parents. Her health was questionable during that time, she's doing much better now. And this is her story. While you're listening, please remember that nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise, always consult a physician before making any changes to your health care plan, or becoming bold with insulin. If you'd like to get five free travel packs in the year supply of vitamin D, you can do that with your first order of a G one. But you need to use my link, drink a G one.com forward slash juice box and you can save 35% off your entire order at cozy earth.com When you use the offer code juicebox. A went back and forth about this one being an after dark but I think it qualifies.

The podcast is sponsored today by better help. Better help is the world's largest therapy service and is 100% online. With better help, you can tap into a network of over 25,000 licensed and experienced therapists who can help you with a wide range of issues. betterhelp.com forward slash juicebox. To get started, you just answer a few questions about your needs and preferences in therapy. That way BetterHelp can match you with the right therapist from their network. And when you use my link, you'll save 10% On your first month of therapy. You can message your therapist at any time and scheduled live sessions when it's convenient for you. Talk to them however you feel comfortable text chat phone or video call. If your therapist isn't the right fit. For any reason at all. You can switch to a new therapist at no additional charge. And the best part for me is that with better help you get the same professionalism and quality you expect from in office therapy. But with a therapist who is custom picked for you, and you're gonna get more scheduling flexibility, and a more affordable price. betterhelp.com forward slash juicebox that's better help h e l p.com. Forward slash juicebox. Save 10% On your first month of therapy.

Katie 2:48
So my name is Katie. I've been a type one diabetic for almost 17 years now. I'm from Washington State and I was recently married in September and now live in in Texas with my husband

Unknown Speaker 3:02
just got married. How old are you?

Katie 3:05
I am 29. As of last week,

Scott Benner 3:08
you were diagnosed in your 1212 Yep. Well, happy birthday.

Katie 3:13
Math. Yep.

Scott Benner 3:15
Well, I mean, it's it's nine minus seven.

Unknown Speaker 3:18
It's not that hard. So.

Scott Benner 3:21
But thank you, I do appreciate the compliment. So you're 29 you were diagnosed when you were 12? Is this your first time living not in the upper Northwest.

Katie 3:33
Um, I grew up in Washington, but then I was kind of, you know, a little bit all over the place. I moved to New Mexico after I graduated from college. And so I spent a couple years in New Mexico and that's where I actually met my my husband. And then we moved to West Texas for a couple of years and then more recently moved to South Texas.

Scott Benner 3:57
Very nice. Well, you said you were a little all over the place. Did you mean geographically or personally?

Katie 4:03
Probably both.

Scott Benner 4:07
Probably Probably. How? Let's think. How about your family? Let's start there. There are other autoimmune issues or anybody else with type one.

Katie 4:18
Nobody else with type one but there are some like thyroid, you know, Graves disease, other kinds of thyroid issues on my mom's side of the family. So I think you know, my grandma on that side. My aunt and my mom all have had thyroid problems and so the doctors think that maybe that could have something to do with with my type one.

Scott Benner 4:37
What's it I mean? It's obviously an indicator that autoimmune issues run in the family. Do you remember them having problems growing up? Or is it just the thing you know now because you have type one?

Katie 4:51
I don't remember them having problems growing up. It was just something that like after I was diagnosed looking back on it, it seemed like oh, hey, maybe that It played a played a role.

Scott Benner 5:02
Yeah, no. I mean, it's it's an indicator, right? Like it's not like it's not like them having hyperthyroidism, for example gives you type one diabetes, it's just the genetically you guys are more predisposed to having autoimmune issues.

Katie 5:15
Yeah, well, and then I was diagnosed with hypothyroidism as well, like a couple years after I was diagnosed with type one.

Scott Benner 5:21
Yeah, you don't want to get out of the club. I mean, if it's gonna, probably felt left out, you're probably like, Oh, I hope I get thyroid issues. I can be like everybody else. How old were you when you got the hypothyroidism?

Katie 5:35
Um, so it's interesting because I think I was first diagnosed when I was maybe like 14 or 15. And then I was on Synthroid for a year or two, until the doctors told me, you know, you're too borderline to continue taking it. And so they stopped it. And then it wasn't until a couple years ago, maybe two years ago, now that I started back up on it at the time, I didn't probably pay as close attention to the lab work as I should have. And knowing now, like, I wish I would have never let the doctor take me off of it, because I was still experiencing like, a lot of those, you know, typical hypothyroid symptoms, and I probably needed it. But yeah, that's kind of where we're at.

Scott Benner 6:19
That's super interesting. So you they had you managed well, and then some lab results, that somebody obviously didn't understand very well made them take you off of it. But once you started having, I mean, did you just restart your experiences that you were having like, did the centroid stop it and then without the centroid, it was back?

Katie 6:39
Well, I was a lot younger when I was first on it, like I was 14, or 15. And so I wasn't paying a lot of attention to the symptoms at the time, it was more just, you know, the doctor said that I need this medication. So I'm gonna go ahead and take it. And you know, my parents went ahead and started me on that medication. And so I think it was maybe that I switched positions, and the new physician told me that, hey, I don't know why they started you on this, you don't actually need it, or whatever it was. And so when they said that, me just trusting the doctor, I'm thinking, Okay, well, maybe I fixed salt or whatever it was, yeah,

Scott Benner 7:13
then you're a kid and you don't like you're probably just happy to take a pill.

Katie 7:17
Yeah, and it just kind of like left my brain. And then it wasn't until maybe three, four years ago that I started kind of googling some of the symptoms that I was having. And I came up with hypothyroidism. And that's when I was like, Hey, I think at one point, I actually was taking medication for that and then went back retested my thyroid and started up

Scott Benner 7:41
again, Katie, you are outlining one of my major fears about being a parent. What is that? Well, I'll tell you, luckily, for you, I'm, I'm ready to talk. I'm just kidding. Kidding. I could talk about anything. But I'm being serious. This is a an actual concern of mine, that I spent years, days, weeks, months, whatever, figuring out something for my kids. And then once they're not around me anymore, they forget about it, or some doctor away, lays them or something happens. And then they begin to experience these issues over again and have to go back through the process of figuring it out. I honestly that's one of my concerns about my kids getting older.

Katie 8:27
Yeah, I mean, I get it. And I went basically a whole decade with without a medication that I probably should have been on the whole time.

Scott Benner 8:36
Yes. See, that. I used to this is, I'm overusing the phrase, but that that breaks my heart. Like it really does that, that you were because of the last time because you had a thing figured out, you know, and then you had to go back through it again for 10 years. It's just sucks. Anyway, I'll drop in here. If your TSH is over two, and you have symptoms, don't let a doctor tell you that you're in range. That's all. There's, there's my thoughts about that. Right. Okay, so what do you remember about getting the diabetes?

Katie 9:09
Um, so I was 12 at the time, and I remember that. I had all those typical type one symptoms, I had a lot of, you know, the weight loss, really thirsty, peeing constantly in the middle of the night, all of that. And it's, it's interesting because I always mentioned this, whenever I tell people about my diagnosis story that that same year in our PE class, we would run a mile in the beginning of the year and then run a mile at the end of the year. And I was in really good shape as a child. I was a gymnast growing up and so like, you know, I really did well that the beginning of the year for that first mile. I think I ran I don't know a seven minute mile or under seven minute mile. And the mile at the end of the year was actually a couple of weeks before I was diagnosed. Hmm, so that mile was like 12 or 13 minutes, compared to, you know, the time that I had in the beginning of the year before diabetes. So that was kind of one thing looking back where it's like, well, it makes sense. If you're in DKA, DKA, that mile is, you know, you're gonna be a lot.

Scott Benner 10:20
Take you takes a lot more effort to get around the track. I couldn't do it with or without diabetes. I don't have diabetes, but trust me if I did, I don't think it would be any slower than it was already. Not much. Was this part of the President's physical fitness challenge that still exists when you were in high school?

Katie 10:37
I was in middle school. So I think this was seventh grade. I'm not sure if it was a fitness challenge or for or if it was just something that our PE teacher did at the time, like, as part of, you know, his class, but, but I do remember that my whole family was like, why did it take you so much longer to run that last mile as compared to the one at the beginning of the year? So Yeah,

Scott Benner 11:00
no kidding. And so once you notice that, does that, like make everybody sit around and go? I wonder what that is about? Or was it just the thing you remember being said that it got lost?

Katie 11:12
I think a little bit of both. Um, I would say that there were a couple of other things that also added to that suspicion. So when I was in seventh grade, one of the big things that I think prompted my parents to take me into the doctor was that I went to a football game like a middle school football game with a friend of mine and her parents. The parent had mentioned to my mom or dad or whoever, at the time, that I sat and drank probably like 15. Coca Cola is within the span of the football game. Like no exaggeration, 15 Coca Cola cans, because I was just constantly going back to the snack stand and just so thirsty, that it really like rang some bells and in that parent's head. Yeah.

Scott Benner 12:01
You imagine them sitting there that whole time being like, there's something really wrong with this kid.

Katie 12:05
You know, seriously, that's exactly exactly what it was. And so, basically, there was there was a morning where our entire extended family was supposed to go to the pumpkin patch that day, actually, the day that I was diagnosed, I think my parents thought just bring her in, make sure everything's okay. Just to be sure. And, you know, they bought brought me into the pediatricians office and explain some of the symptoms that I was having when the pediatrician tested my blood sugar. And it was like, I don't know, well over 600, or whatever it was. And so no pumpkin patch that day. But what I did get, you know, sent straight to the ER,

Scott Benner 12:46
hold on a second, Katie, something just went past my house that rumble the entire like, block. People, people have to, like calm down a little with. I want my car to sound exciting. So you wait a minute. So hold on a second, you actually got a good diagnosis, then, like you were with an adult who wasn't your parent who was like, There's something wrong. They told your parents who went okay, that does sound crazy. And you went to a doctor was like, that sounds like diabetes, and I'll check your blood sugar. You have like a good diagnosis story.

Katie 13:16
For the most part, there were other things Yeah, that my parents picked up on. So I would say that I think the other parent mentioning it to my parents was kind of the tip of the iceberg where they're like, Okay, that's it, we're taking her in. Okay, um, but the one thing that I will mention is, although the pediatrician did send me straight to the hospital, like, before we went to the pediatricians office, I was just, I'm thirsty all the time. And one of my favorite things to drink was like those strawberry cream frappuccinos from Starbucks. And so my parents convinced me to go into the doctor's office by telling me that have one after we left? And the pediatrician was like, oh, yeah, that's fine. You can stop at Starbucks, grab, grab her sugary drink on the way to the ER with a 600 blood sugar. So I always think that that's interesting, looking back being like, the pediatrician sees I'm clearly, you know, type one diabetic with blood sugar over 600. But it's still like, Yeah, no worries. So head and get her 80 grams of sugar on the way to the hospital.

Scott Benner 14:19
probably thinking, Oh, let the kid have one last big sugary drink without thinking about it ever, you know, I don't know. Maybe they don't know the difference. And or maybe they saw your parents who were like, Oh, God, I know what's coming, or did your parents not understand diabetes at all?

Katie 14:36
I think that they had kind of a general understanding. I had grandparents that had type two. So their understanding was more with type two. And so that's why they were able to recognize some of those symptoms. But as far as type one goes, I think that it was it was a pretty big learning curve for everybody.

Unknown Speaker 14:57
I see. Oh,

Scott Benner 14:58
how long did it take? For the things that you mentioned in your notes to start happening,

Katie 15:05
things that I mentioned in my No,

Scott Benner 15:07
this is fun because you signed up six months ago, you don't remember what you wrote at all, do you?

Katie 15:12
Oh, I probably Yeah, I mean, I probably just mentioned that, you know, I really struggled throughout my teen years with with management and, and things like that, which, which is true, I wouldn't say that. For the first year or two after my diagnosis, things were okay. Things were not great. But my agencies were maybe seven or eight. Okay. And so, and I think I had I had a good amount of support at that time. And then once I started high school, I think that's when things really started to like, drop off

Scott Benner 15:46
it, how does it? How does that begin? Like what's, like, if you think back on it now hindsight, what happened first, like, because you're talking here about use the word non compliance mental health issues, talking about family dynamics, diet bulimia, like, Do you can you look back and see the first warning sign of any of this?

Katie 16:10
Yeah, I think that there's probably a few different things, but one would be that I actually had a seizure around that time. Um, so I was having a sleepover with, you know, a friend of mine, and basically had a seizure in my sleep. And so that was kind of a scary experience for me. And looking back, I think that that maybe just not even subconsciously, almost just made me fearful of going below a certain number. And then my blood sugar's were just running higher after that. And then also just kind of starting high school, I remember not wanting to Bolus in front of people not wanting to feel any, any different than the other kids like. I mean, it was it was one thing in middle school, when it was a much smaller group of kids, I think there were like, 30 kids in my eighth grade class. And so I didn't feel as much pressure to like, hide things. But I just remember feeling like, I needed to hide my diabetes from people once I started high school.

Scott Benner 17:15
So not only are you, you know, hiding, but you had this experience that led you to think like, well, I don't want my blood sugar to go this low again. So everything is lending itself to not carrying, carrying strong word not using insulin the way you should be.

Katie 17:33
Yeah, definitely. And I also, I mean, maybe didn't fully realize that at the time that that was what was actually happening. And then once I started to run, like, certain numbers, once I started to get into those really higher numbers, I remember just feeling like a lot of guilt, and really, like shameful that my numbers were so high, and feeling like I couldn't control them. Because I think I was, once you run high for a certain amount of time, your body is just, it's hard to get those back down, your body gets used to it.

Scott Benner 18:08
Yeah, there's no, it doesn't signal to you anymore. And you don't realize that you're altered?

Unknown Speaker 18:14
No, not at all. Well, so

Scott Benner 18:17
Well, let me let me ask you a question about that. So as we're talking about it now, do you even see it? Like, the seizure happens? You think, oh, I want to be a little higher than you get self conscious? And then while What do I do I hide the diabetes means I don't use insulin as much. And then these things like just sort of when your blood sugar gets higher, you get accustomed to that. And it happens almost silently, right? Like, I mean, we're talking about it now. So it's easy to segment out and point to it. But while it's happening to you, you don't recognize any of that happening. I imagined

Katie 18:51
No, I did not recognize any of that happening at the time, I knew that my blood sugars weren't good. Like, in the moment, I knew that my blood sugars were bad, but I didn't really understand like, why or what was going on with me and to recognize like what was happening and I also just remember feeling like I constantly had to hide my blood sugars or if I tested and I was five or 600 like feeling just so bad about the number that instead of just being like, Okay, well let's deal with it and bring it back down. Like it instead it led me to just not want to test my blood sugar at all. Like

Scott Benner 19:30
yeah, so these things happen. They lead you in a direction that direction. You're not unaware that you've arrived at it. So you're like, Okay, now you feel wrong, I'm doing the wrong thing or I'm not doing well enough or whatever the feelings are. And then it just keeps building then you feel guilty ashamed. I imagined to

Katie 19:50
guilty ashamed. And then, you know, I went through different stages of trying to bring it back down. Like I knew that I wanted to be healthy. I knew that I wasn't in the ideal situation. And that it wasn't, wasn't doing anything good for my body, right? Like you hear about all these complications from your doctors and your parents and everything. So I remember trying to bring it back down, but then almost feeling as soon as something went wrong, or as soon as I would get back over 200, or 300, or whatever number, I'm kind of throwing my hands up and being like, I'm never gonna be able to do this, I can't do this, you know, like, and then going back into that cycle of just not taking care of myself not wanting to see the numbers not wanting to deal with it, like being in denial,

Scott Benner 20:37
that failure then after you try to address it, and and it doesn't work out for you, then that failure just drives you back in the other direction again, plus this this where is this where an eating disorder comes in?

Katie 20:50
Yeah, I would say that that probably came in a little bit later, towards like the end of high school, maybe beginning of college even. And that I think, really fed from the fact that my body got so used to running with such high blood sugars, that every time I would try and bring them back down, like, I would immediately just like swell up. So I know that that sounds like crazy, but I would say spend three days with my blood sugar back down in a normal range, like my body hated it, it got so used to those high blood sugars that I just felt like crap, like,

Scott Benner 21:33
like you were low, even though you were at a reasonable number.

Katie 21:36
I wouldn't even say like, maybe I would feel kind of low. But it was more that like, I got so puffy. And I don't know if that's like common for diabetics, or if that happens, you know, frequently when people try and bring their numbers down after spending so long, high, but like, serious, serious fluid retention to the point where like, my skin is tight and uncomfortable. And that actually, like once I eventually did get my numbers back down. I had to go through months of like, really uncomfortable. Um, I don't know if it's necessarily neuropathy, because I don't have those symptoms anymore. But like shooting pains in my legs, fluid retention, and just feeling really lethargic, even and just sick all the time, like nauseous, I felt sick constantly.

Scott Benner 22:23
Hmm, that's interesting. So you're trying to do the right thing. And your body's almost feeling to you. Like, it's signaling that this is the wrong thing. But you intellectually you know, it's right. So you push through it eventually.

Katie 22:33
Yeah, and I think that I mean, that wasn't until I was maybe 24. So I spent a good decade with a onesies between like 10 and 14. Mobley. I'm sorry,

Scott Benner 22:45
you. You. I just lost you from it between a onesie between 10 and

Katie 22:52
10 and 14, probably for about a decade.

Scott Benner 22:55
Wow. Do you have any health impacts from that?

Katie 22:59
Yeah, I mean, I do I've got a little bit of like pots. I don't know how familiar with kind of some dizziness if I stand up too fast and things like that with like, my, my, my pulse and so I've got some some pots. And then I had some retinopathy treatments in my eyes. They're stable right now, which I'm really thankful for. But I think all things considered. Considering how much time I probably spent in DKA, between the ages of like 15 and 25, I feel lucky to not have any more serious complications. Yeah.

Scott Benner 23:41
Pots, by the way, somebody kindly call it pots, pots because it's Postural Orthostatic Tachycardia Syndrome, and that does not that does not roll off the tongue. Are you taking beta blockers or anything like that?

Katie 23:55
No, I'm not taking any beta blockers. I noticed that just making like small kind of lifestyle changes really helps with that. There was a period once I got my blood sugar's under better control where I was just like Dizzy constantly couldn't stand up without feeling like I wanted to pass out, you know, your pulse racing. And then I started just kind of getting more active. So going out and like going on hikes and just kind of like pushing through some of that and that is actually what helped me the most

Scott Benner 24:28
interesting. How many electrolytes electrolytes, how many times do you think you were in DK in that decade?

Katie 24:39
I honestly I don't, I don't know probably a lot. I remember under

Scott Benner 24:45
10 Probably more than 10 more than once a year. Yeah. Yeah. Was the dka part of your management system I want spoke to somebody privately who described their diabetes management as not existence, then I go into DK then the hospital brings me back, then I go home, then I go back into DK was that part of your cycle,

Katie 25:07
I would say that I did not go to the hospital every time I was in DKA. I, I feel like I was probably in DKA. And would just treat myself with like a giant dose of insulin like I remember there is a period of time where I wouldn't do any insulin until I started to feel sick. And then I would just crank like 15 units on that noble log pen, and then inject myself and to bring those blood sugars back down. So I think I was in decay, probably more than I or anybody else really realized at the time, I feel like I was almost living in this constant like bouncing between, you know, bringing myself back down, and maybe somewhat normal blood sugars, and then just eating whatever I wanted to not dosing and then going right back up into GK,

Scott Benner 26:00
I'm normally not this hamfisted Katie, but I don't want this moment to go by without the listeners really appreciating that what started out as you trying to avoid being low, put you in a situation where you were using a massive amount of insulin that could have made you very low.

Katie 26:16
Yeah, no, it's it's definitely scary looking back. But I just remember that, like, I would be really sick and throwing up like, which is clearly DK, high blood sugar, throwing up sick and just think, Okay, I've got to get this blood sugar down. So I would just give myself a massive dose, but then I would go on continuing to eat whatever I wanted. Not testing. And so I mean, so definitely some very management.

Scott Benner 26:47
So here's some questions around that. My son, now I've been talking to you for almost a half an hour, you're a bright person so and you sound like your family around you? Or did you not by that point?

Katie 27:01
No, I had family around me. Um, my dad was definitely I would say most involved with, with management. Um, he would kind of test me in the middle of the night when after I was first diagnosed, he would be the one to kind of help me out with some of those things. But I think as I became a teenager, I just became really resistant to let anybody in. And I didn't want people even asking me what my blood sugar was. Or if they did, I would lie. And just like, I felt like a failure. And I felt like it was something I was never going to be able to, to figure out. And so I just didn't want to ask for help or anybody to even know that I was struggling as badly as I was. And so I would just kind of deny, deny, deny lie about blood sugars. And, and that was how I was living as a teenager.

Scott Benner 27:53
Do you have a feeling for how much of that was your situation? And how you felt? And how much of that might have been? Because your as your mind is altered with the high blood sugars? Did you ever do Ever think about that? Like, would you have done it? I mean, like, because when your blood sugar gets high, you get surly, and, you know, kind of short tempered and things like that. And like was that like your normal?

Katie 28:19
Yeah, that was kind of my normal. And I think, looking back, my dad actually realized a lot of this, like, he would call it the high blood sugar monster. So I mean, realize that a lot of what I was experiencing and was so closely tied to the uncontrolled diabetes, um, but I didn't want to think that way. Like, I just, I never wanted to believe that it was affecting me as much as it was. And so, you know,

Scott Benner 28:53
you wouldn't have the ability to, to really think that through I think that's something that's something that gets lost. In that conversation. I have an episode that isn't isn't out yet. But was talking to a person whose, whose husband had type one was not, you know, no semblance of management to speak on really high blood sugars. And she would talk about the bad decisions he would make and all I could think while she was talking was like, Yeah, I mean, he probably was not in the right mindset to make a decision about anything. And, and we and we don't see that, because, like, I think your story illustrates how slowly it comes over you it's almost like it's almost like a shadow. You don't I mean, when the sun's going down, and it just kind of creeps across wherever you are, and you don't realize that all of a sudden you're in the dark and it's just that's like that that's slow death. You know, I think I think some snakes kill that way. They just get a hold of you and just slowly or what's the sea example people use lobster in a pot right or no frog the frog you ever heard the frog thing? Katie, sorry, it took me a while to get to it

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If you put a frog in a pot of cold water and turn it on, and the water slowly warms up, and then boils, the frog will stay in there and die. But if you Oh yeah, you throw a frog in a hot pot little jumper down. I think that's what happened to you. I think you that it just slowly the water warmed up and you just didn't notice it happening. And then by the time it was happening, it was too late. Except I'm trying to understand why. Why was there not an opportunity for the people around you to say, Hey, Katie, you went to the doctrine agency is 10, we need to do something? Did you push them away that harshly that they weren't able to do that?

Katie 32:02
I mean, I think I did push my family away pretty harshly. Don't get me wrong, I was a very, I think volatile and a little bit out of control teenager talking to me about diabetes in general was just difficult. And my dad certainly tried, I would say that my mom was definitely less involved, and didn't really try and have any of those types of conversations with me. But I also think that in looking looking back, I can't really blame my parents for anything, because I don't even know if they had taken a different approach with me. Like, if anything would have worked to be honest. I don't know if anything really would have nope, shook me out of that kind of zombie state that I think I was living in for such a long time. But I really think the the mindset was like, like more of a disciplinary mindset regarding diabetes as much as like a supportive atmosphere. Things were pretty volatile in my house growing up, um, and just, I didn't have great structure at home. Um,

Scott Benner 33:14
can you give me a tiny bit of feeling for what what that was? I don't need like the deep personal, you know, Secrets of your parents. But what was happening?

Katie 33:24
Yeah, so, um, I, I mean, I would say that my mom in general is a pretty just unstable person and could be really harsh. Could be kind of verbally abusive, um, could be just cold in general. And so I just I don't really ever remember feeling like I had much support. I think that my dad certainly tried to reach out every now and then to help me. Um, but it was just it was really difficult for me there was constant arguing going on in my household. It was just, I remember trying to lock myself away in my room so that I didn't have to just deal with kind of the the craziness in the house right? Um, so these

Scott Benner 34:15
were not people who in general were a rock that you would go to about anything let alone something this confusing and, and, and deep. They are.

Katie 34:28
My mom definitely wasn't I can tell you right now that like, I never felt like I could go to her with these types of problems. I remember a couple of times trying to go to her with like different issues going on in my life. And she would either like kind of ignore it and just change the subject because it made her uncomfortable, or she would get mad or whatever it is. I just never felt like I could go to her with really anything. And then I think my dad has much of like that. That mindset of we'll just take Can't just just do it, like just inject yourself with your insulin, just test like I don't, and really just wanting to more like control the situation versus, like, understand it and figure out like, what's going on, I think that he was just, it hurt him to watch me have such high blood sugars. And instead of like trying to talk to me and really get to the bottom of what was happening and support me he's like, Just do it. Like, just get your blood like it's not that hard. So that was kind of I think what I went through at the time,

Scott Benner 35:37
Katie, your name is a bit of a giveaway because I can see your full name but Catholic. Yes, Irish.

Unknown Speaker 35:45
I'm

Scott Benner 35:47
English. Your mom.

Katie 35:49
Actually. Mom's side is Native American

Scott Benner 35:52
really? Interesting. Perfectly. Oh, okay. All right. Oh, I was just looking for like a you said cold. I went to Irish, sorry, Irish people. That's from my own experience. Don't worry.

Katie 36:06
Yeah. And then dad side is Italian so

Scott Benner 36:10
and they just sort of like they were both ill equipped in different ways.

Katie 36:17
Yeah, I think so. And I think that my dad tried in his way for sure. Like, he definitely tried in his way. But I just don't think that it was really what I needed at the time. I'm a 1415 year old girl who's going through a lot and felt like, was really depressed and dealing with just so much that I don't I don't know if there was really anything that he could have said, but it. I just didn't feel like I had much support. That's all.

Scott Benner 36:46
Do you have a relationship with your mom now?

Unknown Speaker 36:48
No, no.

Scott Benner 36:50
Did you get anything out of this? Katie, do you own a piece of a casino or anything?

Katie 36:57
No, I don't own a piece of a casino or anything like

Scott Benner 37:00
that screwed over Katie.

Katie 37:03
I know, I should go back and ask if I can.

Scott Benner 37:05
Hi, my name is Katie. And I think I deserve some of this casino. Yeah, I think that would be uncomfortable if you're at school. But I'm sorry, I think I said something stupid. When you were other say something serious about why you don't talk to your mom.

Katie 37:20
Yeah, so I'm actually, her and my dad got divorced a couple of years ago. And that was really like kind of what set up. I guess that the end of that relationship between the two of us, we always had a really unstable relationship. Personally, I, I think she struggles with kind of a lot of mental health issues still, and potentially some borderline personality disorder. But when they got divorced, it very much felt at least how I, how I felt it was was that she expected me just to turn on my dad and tell her that, you know, I was 100% on her side and anything like, you know, can't talk to your dad, you shouldn't have a relationship with your that's how it felt. She never necessarily said that. But she would call me yelling and screaming about you know, this is what your dad did. And she really wanted to try and turn me against him. And that ultimately kind of led to the end of our relationship.

Scott Benner 38:30
I'm sorry, that sucks. Okay, did you have any mental health issues of your own aside from the eating thing? And by the way, when you said you had an eating disorder? What's the manifestation of that? Were you limiting food? Or were you limiting insulin to limit weight?

Katie 38:49
I was limiting insulin. Because I would notice that if I would bring my blood sugar's down, like I said before, I kind of get this big puffed up feeling and then as soon as I would get back up into the five or six hundreds, it's like all that water weight would just immediately drop, like, and, you know, I mean, DKA your body is basically starving itself. Like that's, that's what it is your body is, is starving itself. And that is obviously a horrible, horrible way to deal with feelings of, of not liking the way that you look. But that that was at the time when I didn't really know any better. That's how I was dealing with it. And

Scott Benner 39:35
do you have issues with how you appear?

Katie 39:40
I think at the time I did, I mean, not any more. But I more would just notice like very small fluctuations in weight that would really bother me. So even if I gained like five or 10 pounds or whatever it was, it impacted me in a really big way.

Scott Benner 39:58
I hate to say it, but If you were on that thyroid medication, you might have had an easier time with that as well. Be probably Yeah, it's, it's it's interesting how little mistakes from a doctor or misunderstandings about things, you know, because you start using insulin again, you're probably eating, not healthy, I would imagine because you could probably eat whatever you wanted while you weren't using insulin and it wasn't affecting your body weight. So now you're eating all this food, I'm imagining and using insulin and gaining weight very quickly because of that. And that, by the way, is it's one of the reasons why you hear people have the misconception that insulin makes you gain weight. Because yeah, calories make you gain weight, not insulin. And but people confuse that because it's how they say it. I started using more insulin, I gained weight. Well, Katie story illuminates that perfectly. How did you? Why are you so normal? Are you pretending to be right now? What's happening?

Katie 40:58
Am I Am I normal? I don't think I'm normal. I

Scott Benner 41:00
mean, you're fairly normal. Katie, I talked to a lot of people. And they're all lovely, on some spectrum. Lovely. I've never met a person on the show that I thought like, a terrible person. But but you're having a very cogent, reasonable conversation about people who were really hurtful to you, and you're not lashing out at them, like you're not treating them where your mom would have treated them. You know, you're you're being well measured and thoughtful, you're seeing their side of things, like, and but you've described yourself as like, a volleyball team. How did you get from there to here?

Katie 41:37
Um, well, to start with, I think that if you had maybe talked to me, a couple of years ago, I probably wouldn't have been as objective as I am now about the situation with my mom, I haven't talked to her in a couple of years. And so I think just time and space has kind of given me the distance to settle down in that regard. Yeah, kind of see. It is what it is.

Scott Benner 42:05
Yeah. I don't want you to like, say, terrible, but I've been thinking this for the last 15 minutes. I don't want to say this out loud. But getting away from your mom. Fix your life. Yes.

Katie 42:20
In some regards. Yes. In other regards. In in a lot of regards. Yes. Actually, I would say I would say that, that decision really improved my overall mental health it really improved the other relationships in my life. And it gave me the space to really almost understand her better and see the ways that that relationship was negatively impacting me. Because it was I mean, I was dealing with almost like I was dealing with arguments with her on almost a daily basis and like certain behaviors that frankly, like you shouldn't have to deal with as a child like as a child. I mean, not necessarily that I was a child but as her child things that I was dealing with it just shouldn't have ever been happening

Scott Benner 43:14
was there a lot of I hate this word, but I'm going to just use it here because it fits did she gaslight you a lot? Where did you find yourself in arguments where you're like, vehemently defending something that later if you step back and felt like none of that was even real? What we were just talking about like, oh gosh,

Katie 43:30
yeah, like I remember she she dug through like my phone records and banking statements trying to find like, basically proof that I was talking to my dad or talking to my grandma and then to use all this stuff against me. And like she, once this kind of divorce started, it really triggered a lot of these behaviors that I think we all lived with and saw for a long time, but it just seemed like it escalated everything. And so I just there was the moment for me where I was recently engaged me and my now husband had just gotten engaged and we were driving back from a great weekend of telling his family and we were just like on cloud nine. And in the car and her calling me and just screaming because she saw on my phone records that I had called my grandmother. And she thought that I was you know, talking to my grandma about her trying to talk bad about her when I'm sitting there and I'm like I just was calling my grandma like I'm just talking to my grandma like I don't understand and you know, the the volatile the screaming and the yelling and just my husband pulling over the car at the time and he put it in park and walked over to the to the passenger door, open the door, grab the phone, hung it up and gave me a hug and was like, you don't need to deal with that right now. He

Scott Benner 44:59
loves You Katie I thought he was you were gonna say he walked on the side of the door, opened the door, got me out and said, I can't take this. I'll see you later. I might have been like, I got I picked the wrong girl, if I'm, if I'm, if I'm, if I'm, if I'm looked at this lady on top of that, oh, but no, look at him that very night. There's one of those great moments where you know, you met the right person.

Katie 45:23
Yeah, no one completely. And I remember him being kind of what would bring me back down in those situations, because he would hang up the phone, give me a hug, and just be like, this isn't this isn't fair. Like that, that isn't okay, though, the way that she's talking to you. And we're, this is such a happy time in our lives. And, you know, let's just not deal with that right now. And me being really thankful for him stepping in, in certain situations and making me feel like I wasn't crazy. Because, frankly, dealing with someone like, like that can make you sometimes feel like you're crazy. So

Scott Benner 46:00
this is the next thing on my list. Right? I make notes as we're talking. And I was gonna say, like you said, you dealt with mental health issues. But I mean, was it a situation where you actually had your own concerns? Or was it the idea of like, if you lock me in a cage with a tiger, and I cry, you don't get the things I have a mental health issue because I'm crying? It's because I'm locked in a cage with a tiger. So like, no, no,

Katie 46:24
I think I, I mean, I think some of some of those mental health issues definitely stemmed from that relationship. But I think, um, like, the depression and other things that I dealt with really stemmed from me, not taking care of my diabetes, and the fear that I had around, like, what that would mean for me and feeling like really hopeless. Like, for the longest time, for basically an entire decade, I just felt hopeless, like, I was never gonna get, you know, my blood sugar's down, I couldn't do it, I was gonna die at a young age, I hear about all these complications. Just thinking that this is my life, like, I'm gonna feel sick for the rest of my life. And there's nothing that I can do to dig myself out of this hole. And then also, like seeing that impact all of my relationships, because the people around you as much as you can try and hide it from people. They know. I mean, at least my dad and a lot of the people who are close in close to me in my life, they could see it. I mean, you can smell DKA you can see it on someone's face. And so as much as they would try and help me like, I just would not let anybody in.

Scott Benner 47:36
Yeah. For nothing to Katie, like, you're going to probably you thinking of having kids? Yeah, yeah. Okay. So there'll be a day when this is going to make more sense to you than it might right now. But a lot of that blame shifts to your parents, like, I mean, I understand your mom seems limited in a number of ways, and that maybe she's not a person you can count on. But still, she's the person you had to count on, and she wasn't there. And your dad is obviously going through a lot. I don't think that his life, like dealing with what you're describing sounds super exciting. But it's still his job to push past all that and help you. You know, and, and so you get let down a couple of times here. And then there's the yelling, and the craziness. And then you feel crazy. And then there's the realization that your health is, you know, tenuous at best. You look up, no one's going to help you. You've tried to do something, it didn't work out. I mean, yeah, you're depressed. But I mean, I think you probably shouldn't be, you know what I mean? Like, do you see do you not have that depression anymore?

Katie 48:46
No, um, I would say that, once the diabetes kind of got under control, a lot of these issues went away for me. And then, you know, I've got a great relationship with my dad now. So um, once. I don't know, it seems like once the diabetes got under control, everything else really just clicked into place in my life. Yeah. I met my husband, maybe six months after I first decided like, Okay, that's it. I'm getting this under control. So it really was a matter of I got scared to the point where I decided that's it. I'm not doing this anymore. And I got on an insulin pump. My agency started very slowly going down, but you know, it did get down. And then things really just started to get easier for me in general.

Scott Benner 49:49
It's amazing. It's really cool. And you and you're I mean, the thing about the depression just sticks with me like I don't know how you wouldn't be depressed in that situation. Is what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah. And are you? I'm sorry, I have a question here. I'm trying to phrase it. Do you think that the rest of your life is going to significantly look different than the first part?

Katie 50:23
Oh, I know that. Yeah, I know it will.

Scott Benner 50:26
And do you see what your dad must have been going through?

Katie 50:34
Yes. Which is, I think, why I now look back and understand. I understand his, his actions and his mindset at the time more than I did before. I ultimately think that even for my mom as well, I think everybody was just scared for me. And they didn't really know how to handle that. Um, so

Scott Benner 51:03
yeah, and by the way, I don't think all the time that that lack of help from people is an indication of apathy. I do just think sometimes people are just in over their heads. And you know, then there are other influences making the minutes of their day. untenable. And then And then, you know, before you know it, you think, well, we'll fix it, or it'll get better, or, you know, like, maybe, maybe she'll grow out of it. Or if like, who knows what you think, like, you're just hoping you're gonna wake up the next day to a different situation.

Katie 51:33
Yeah, and I think, to be honest, I think that having my mom in the house, the entire house feel really like just not a not a great place. Like my dad was dealing with a lot. He was dealing a lot. So is as much as I can go back and say, oh, you should have done this or done that. It's really hard for me to place any blame there.

Scott Benner 51:56
Did anyone ever tried to help your mom?

Unknown Speaker 51:59
Like, yeah, professionally?

Katie 52:02
Yeah, um, and my dad, I mean, spent the last however many years of their marriage trying to help her and it just seemed like nothing ever really thought through to her.

Scott Benner 52:15
I guess you ever speak to him about it? Does he feel I can, excuse me? I can imagine even though you've tried everything, and it's obvious, it's not going to work? Because the other person's resistant? You still might feel badly? Is that the right word like that you that you weren't able to come through for them? Do you think he ever has that? See, were spoken about it?

Katie 52:38
come through for me or for

Scott Benner 52:41
for I'm asking about your mom first, but then I was gonna move over?

Katie 52:44
I don't think so. I think both me and him look back on it thinking that everybody tried everything that they could Yeah. Um, and that's really all you can all you can do for me, though. And it took me a long time to make peace with the fact that I was going to end that relationship with her and that I did everything that I could to try and improve things between us and that I just was never going to get there.

Scott Benner 53:14
I think it helps to realize that you can't expect something from a person that they don't have to give. Yeah, that's very helpful. Sometimes. You're my last question about your mom, was there any, like drug use?

Katie 53:27
Um, no, no, no drug use? She did use, I think alcohol to cope somewhat. So there was definitely some alcohol use there. But, but no, no.

Scott Benner 53:42
All right. So why do you want to come on the show to tell people look, I started in a hole that was 50 feet deep, and I made it out. Because I assume that's what you want to say. But

Katie 53:54
yeah, I think so. And then I started listening to your podcast maybe eight months ago. So and I do want to say that I was already digging myself out of the hole when I came across your podcast. So I had been on an insulin pump and really trying to get my my blood sugar's down. I think maybe my agency was seven and a half when I started listening to your podcast,

Scott Benner 54:18
it had a nice reduction already, then that's amazing.

Katie 54:21
Oh, yeah, well, in my last one was 6.5. So it's still going down. So I feel pretty proud of you know, being well in the six is now

Scott Benner 54:33
nice. I mean, it's you should you should have been, I mean, you should be proud. It's a it's a hell of an accomplishment, especially from where you started, you know. So,

Katie 54:43
but I guess when I started listening to your podcast, I started from the beginning and then I got to the bowl beginning series, and like binge listen to all of those, and just found so much of it so helpful, and I think it really helped me get from, like, 7.5 into the six is just because there were a lot of things that I learned that that I implemented like every day. So just wanted to say that

Scott Benner 55:14
I appreciate you told me actually, the irony of you saying that is that four hours ago, I had a phone call with one of the advertisers who asked if they were they're putting up a one sheet and doctor's office is just a, you know, like a, an information sheet. And they wanted to know if they could use the bowl beginning series on the one sheet. And, and I don't know if it's going to work out or not, I think it's going to just sort of why I'm talking about it right now. Because we haven't like, like, dotted the I's and cross the T's or anything like that yet, but I think that's gonna happen. And it's just, it's when they were talking about it, I thought, Oh, I love that series. And that will definitely help but then you get a little like, I don't know, self count, like self something. Like I'm like, Oh, I hope that's okay. And then just to hear you say that today makes me feel so much better about about the idea of doing that. So I think that's a that's a great idea. Yeah, I'm super happy to help you. Terrific, honestly. How involved is the husband with the diabetes?

Katie 56:19
Oh, he's great. He's super involved. Um, like, he is just all the support in the world that I could could ask for. So he doesn't by any means, like, overstep or anything like that. But if I ever need any support, I can ask him for any help that I need. And he's, he's there. He's on it. So I remember even a couple nights ago, just being like, I really don't want to deal with my blood sugar's tonight, I knew that it was going to be a tough night and that my blood sugar's were running a little bit higher than usual. And I had had, you know, high, high carb, high protein meal, and I knew I was going to have to be probably correcting until like three or 4am in the middle of the night. And he was like, Hey, why don't you just give me your PDM? And I'll wake up and I'll correct you if I need to.

Scott Benner 57:10
That's nice. So yeah,

Katie 57:12
he's he's basically as good as it gets.

Scott Benner 57:16
Yeah. Did you like make breakfast or do anything? Like as a thank you?

Katie 57:20
Oh, yeah, no, he's, I do probably 95% of the cooking and

Scott Benner 57:27
then you don't owe him a thank you at all.

Katie 57:31
I'm like he, he can't he can't really even make eggs. So I I'm sure the next day I made probably something. You

Scott Benner 57:39
could take care of your blood sugar. He could figure out how to make eggs. I think he's, he's slow play. And you know, I can't cook thing. My son was like, I can't cook. The whole time he lived here. He moved out. And it's like, a weekend later. And he facetimes he's asking me a question about food and like, what are you doing? He's like, I'm just preparing meals for the week. I was like, you son of a bitch. I was like, it's like, he's making chicken and broccoli and rice. He's like, I'm packing up in these things. And I'm just going to take him to lunch. And I'm like, you could have cooked like, I think I think you're just getting snowballed. You know what I mean? Like, there's a guy he can cook. He's like, Oh, look at me. I'm so bad with eggs helped me Katie.

Katie 58:19
You know, I? I thought maybe but I don't think so. Our third date, he tried to make chicken alfredo. And it was just the worst thing I've ever eaten.

Scott Benner 58:32
What do I cap your earning potential? Why did you come back for the fourth day?

Katie 58:37
Um, you know, he's outside of his cooking skills. He's He's basically the perfect, perfect person. For me. He's just, he's a rock. He's everything that I really feel like I missed. Throughout my childhood and teenage years. He's very stable, very cool, calm and collected, supportive, understanding and funny. And he's, he's great. He's great.

Scott Benner 59:02
You got to thank your mom, she set that bar really low for you. You're like, he doesn't yell. It's terrific.

Unknown Speaker 59:14
Oh, that's funny.

Katie 59:18
Well, and he he also I'm not working right now. So and he works full time. So I mean, it's the least I can do is take care of the house. Right. Maybe I

Scott Benner 59:26
hear what you're saying. You got a soccer on the line? I gotcha. Don't worry. It's perfect. That's what I would do to actually I was a stay at home dad for 20 years. So

Speaker 3 59:32
I'm with you. Yeah, yep. Oh,

Scott Benner 59:36
I'm just seriously, I'm so happy for you that you met somebody. And that you could have that new experience. That isn't the one that you'd had. So, so if we're going to be four and that you got to reshape the experience with your father. I mean, that was Yeah, that's really nice as well, you know, yeah. Do you think so? Here's the big question. Do you must do you ever think about Who am I going to be when I'm apparent? Like, am I going to be the one that rebels against? What happened to me? Or am I going to be the one who does the thing and doesn't even realize they're doing it? Did you ever worry about that?

Katie 1:00:12
Um, yeah. So I think, probably from a pretty young age, I started started having that conversation with myself of like, if I become a parent one day, what type of parent am I going to be? That's definitely something that I want to be very conscious of, like, deciding, deciding how I'm going to parent and what I'm going to take the good from some of the things that I learned, like, take what happened to me and take what happened, the family dynamics in and really become a better person for it. Yeah.

Scott Benner 1:00:50
Good for you. Well, I mean, just I will tell you, as a person who grew up in a sometimes unstable situation, that there are times you'll you'll do things, and it's going to be up to that guy that you're married to look at you and go, Hey, that's not what you want to be doing right now. And it's hard not to like, it's hard not to. It's hard to hear it sometimes if it happens to you. I hope it doesn't happen to you. But I used to yell when I when the kids were younger, I would yell about things. And my wife would be like, Why are you yelling? And I'm like, I don't I'm not. And she's like, are you definitely are. And I just realized, like I was yelled at constantly as a child. And so

Katie 1:01:29
great is that he's totally that person who, who would be able to do that?

Scott Benner 1:01:34
Yeah, so Well, that's excellent. That's wonderful, actually. So anything that we haven't talked about that you wanted to?

Katie 1:01:42
Um, I don't think so. I just want to also make, I guess, mentioned that I just started on the Omni pod five after listening to your podcast. So that was an awesome step for me. I started in October. And your podcast is what got me looking into it.

Scott Benner 1:02:06
Thank you. Omni pod.com forward slash juicebox. Plus, allow me to take this moment to say see Omni pod, the ads work. Let's, you know, keep going baby. Not that they're not. They're very, they're lovely partners. Actually. I was vamping just now killing time. So that I can tell you that I just got an email 29 minutes ago, it starts off. Scott, I was introduced to Juicebox Podcast six months ago, after starting over yami pod five and your episodes about Omni pod five helped me quite a bit goes on and on. She says a lot of lovely things. It would be self serving for me to continue to keep reading. I just wanted to ask you, Katie, if you tried the Omnipod five episodes that I have to get started with?

Katie 1:02:49
Yep, I sure have. Once I once I knew that I was gonna be able to get it. And it kind of went through my insurance and everything I binge listened to all of those Omnipod five episodes, made sure that I you know, got as much knowledge as I could before I started on it.

Scott Benner 1:03:07
It's very important how you set up your algorithms. When you when you begin, I mean, on the podcast what we're talking about, but the truth is any of them I don't care if you're a looping or using Ctrl IQ or on the pod five or whatever, like bad settings will lead to outcomes that you don't want. So, Episode 736-730-7738 are about setting up your Omni pod five

Katie 1:03:33
when I was on the 670 G the to slim and now this I've been on kind of three of the main insulin pumps in the market right now.

Scott Benner 1:03:43
Taking a tour.

Katie 1:03:45
Yeah, taking a little tour started on the 670 G and quickly changed my mind about that one and then I was on the to slim for a while. Or recently switching over.

Scott Benner 1:03:56
That's interesting. What made you go from control IQ to Omnipod five

Katie 1:04:01
mainly the the tubeless aspect. I guess when I got the cheese when my biggest concern about the Omni pod was that it just wasn't quite as smart or the algorithm wasn't as advanced. And so that was the main reason that I started on the to slim and then the tubeless or I guess the tubing ended up being more of a deterrent than I expected it to be. I really felt like especially because I've been running a lot recently. I'm a runner. And so for certain, like athletic type things. It's much easier with the Omni pod. Cool.

Scott Benner 1:04:39
That's excellent. I imagine. Like from my perspective, that's how I imagined it that people might have been like, you know, a year ago like Well listen to control IQ has an algorithm. I'm gonna go with that. But I wish I had, you know, but it's interesting how that wasn't like you didn't think about the tubeless part until you were on a tube And then you were like, I wish I didn't have tubing. Yeah. So it's interesting. Listen, it not for nothing. I'm sure control IQ works great for a lot of people. But, but it's interesting what becomes important to people along the way. So I'm happy for you, I'm glad it's working well, you're happy with it.

Katie 1:05:19
I'm really happy with it. It's been, it's been great. So far, I've had a pretty decent a one C reduction with that. Um, and, you know, I'm not forgetting my insulin pump anymore, which happened to me a lot. With the T slim I, you know, unplug it to take a shower or luggage to change or whatever it was, and like, forget it somewhere. It actually happened on on the night before my wedding for the rehearsal dinner, I like left it laying on the bed in the hotel.

Scott Benner 1:05:50
Katie, you would think that people listen to the ads and think, oh, he made that up. When I say you could disconnect to take a shower and then forget to put it back on. And potentially, you know, go into decay, you know, like, or anything in between or end up at your wedding rehearsal without the ability to Bolus? But point is, is that really happens to people. Like because yeah, and you're and you're a season, like you've had diabetes for freaking ever. So it's not like you, you know, you weren't new at it and forgot your pump lay in there. Just happened? Yeah, I probably

Katie 1:06:21
hadn't forgotten it for years before that night. But of course, you know, that night was

Scott Benner 1:06:27
I'm not saying that every time you get out of the shower, or people like I forgot, like, you know, but it's stuff that can happen. I'm sure every doorknob didn't rip out your infusion set, but the time it happened, I bet you were like son of a bitch. You know, stuff happens at inopportune times, most most of the time? Well, I, I can't tell you being serious, like, this is a very kind thing for you to share. Because I don't imagine that your story is that uncommon. And yet, you are the first person in nearly 900 episodes, to say these things to me. Like, I thought it was very brave of you to speak about your family dynamics the way you did.

Katie 1:07:11
Yeah, well, thank you, I appreciate that. I think I'm really as much as it was hard at the time. But like, I'm really thankful for the place that I'm at right now in my life. And as much as I can look back and wish that I had changed certain things. And obviously, if I could, you know, snap my fingers, and I could have taken better care of myself during all those years. Who's to say that, even if I had, I wouldn't be dealing with the same thing. 10 years from now, or, like, I don't know, if I would be the place where I'm at now, if I hadn't gone through what I did,

Scott Benner 1:07:45
yeah, I don't think you want to play what if with that, you know, it's just, there's no good that's going to come out of that. Everybody's path is different. You know, we all don't get to be a, I don't know, a Kardashian. My focus, I wouldn't really want to be one of those. But that I mean, the point is, is like, you know, like, I think everybody thinks their life's gonna be magical. And, and it'll be easy and fun and, you know, fruitful and, and then when the realities come to pass, it's, it's what you do, right, and how you respond and what you do next. And you've just, I mean, for being on your own you. I mean, there's part of me that thinks, Katie, I don't know how you didn't die in a ditch. And there's part of me that thinks like, I can't believe she accomplished. Like, I think you have a secret you haven't shared with me yet, but I'm not. But probably not. Huh. just worked out.

Katie 1:08:37
I think I I think I finally kind of hit rock bottom at one point and just told myself that, you know, and I guess I got I got scared enough. So it is crazy as that sounds, that's that's what happened. And I just told myself, Okay, no more, we're not doing this anymore. So, you know, I'm, I'm happy that, that I was able to dig myself out of that hole. But it definitely it took a lot of work. So

Scott Benner 1:09:06
well, I imagine. Yeah, I imagine it was a lot of effort, and probably a lot of fits and starts and things that felt like failures along the way, and not a lot of not giving up I would bet.

Katie 1:09:16
Yeah. But also, I mean, I think looking back, I had to unlearn the mindset that certain blood sugars are bad or good. Or if I, you know, today, if I see a blood sugar of 300 I'm not gonna harp on myself and say, you know, oh, I just shouldn't shouldn't look at my Dexcom I just, you know, don't want to deal with this. Like, no, I had to learn that it's okay that your blood sugars are gonna go high. Just deal with it when it happens. See it, fix it and just move on.

Scott Benner 1:09:45
Yeah, and know that self flagellation, right like you see the number and then you spend a month being upset at yourself over it, and ignoring it the whole time, instead of just going alright, well, my blood sugar got out of hand today. gotta fix this and I'll get back to it. That'll be that Yeah, yeah.

Katie 1:10:00
And I think that's really just like a mindset of almost perfectionism, just thinking that, Oh, if my blood sugar goes high, then I just can't do it at all, like, so I really had out of out of that mindset that, that if it isn't always perfect that it's just going to always be back.

Scott Benner 1:10:20
Well, there's that saying, like, let's see if I can do better with this thing that I did with the frog in the pot analogy, because that I really, I mean, Katie, I bet on that one like, three, I'm gonna use it. Well, it's a great analogy, had I gotten it out the first time and not fumbled through it in and screwed it up and almost use the lobster in my reference? For some reason? I don't know. But what do they say the enemy of good is perfect. Or something like that? You know? laughs Yeah. And so maybe it's the enemy of good enough. Oh, Christ, am I going to Google this light in the pot? Alright, why not? I'll google the enemy of great is good. Good is perfect. I guess people say it a lot of different ways. It just means that when you're, you can't put yourself in a position where if it's not perfect, I'm not going to do it. You know, and then you don't look back later and say, oh, gosh, I did this thing. And it didn't work out. Right. I will just, I'll use the podcast as an example. Like, I didn't know what I was doing. Katie, when I started making this podcast, like I didn't, I had never owned a microphone in my life. I never recorded my voice. I didn't have the right computer. I didn't have any of the hardware I needed. I didn't have I had nothing. And I didn't know what I was doing. And I just did it. And I was like, That was alright. And then I think I'd like to do it like this, maybe this would make it a little better. And I adjusted on the move. And I never beat myself up over what I did the day before. I never looked back and went, Oh, I should have asked this. Or I shouldn't have done that, or should have made that stupid joke. Like, I don't even care. Like, like, I know what the podcast does. I know the importance of it. And I support it no matter what. And I learn and I change and I adapt as I go. And had I not had that attitude. If I would have said it's got to be right before I start than it never would have been right. I never would have started.

Katie 1:12:21
That's when that's how you do end up, you know, perfecting certain things and getting things you know, great. Yeah. But we're clearly evolved over time. And it's turned into something that's amazing for the community.

Scott Benner 1:12:35
So you're saying something nice to me. But what I'm gonna say is like the irony is, is that it is the imperfection that leads to better. You can't imagine perfection. You don't even know what it is like yet, right? So you're like, you're trying to make something perfect. When you don't even know what that means. And then the idea of like, this will be embarrassing, or it'll be a waste of time or it'll be it's not the case. Like you should just get up in the morning and just go and what happens happens and you learn and you grow and you build that's it. All right. Just like that dead frog. Or the live one. I guess the live one learned. Katie, it doesn't matter how dead frog I'm so close to calling this after dark dead frogs. I can't wait for you to explain that to your husband. You're like, listen, the title has nothing to do with me. The guy's an idiot. But we did have a lovely conversation and he made me laugh. Yeah. And he made me laugh. Oh, excited.

Katie 1:13:32
So excited to listen. And he always listens to the podcast in the car with me. So he's thrilled that I am doing this today. He got out he left. He's like I'm gonna leave for the whole day. And you just set everything up and have fun and call me once it's done. He's just he loves your podcast. Also,

Scott Benner 1:13:48
let's that's very nice for him to support you and listen to it like that. I mean, I do make it easy, because it's a wonderful podcast, but that's not the point. It's very nice to him to support you. Are we local to each other? Katie, I haven't had lunch yet. You want to go get lunch? Are we anywhere near each other? Or you're in Texas? Oh,

Katie 1:14:04
I'm in Texas. Are you in Texas? No,

Scott Benner 1:14:06
not in Texas. Never.

Katie 1:14:07
Okay, so then probably.

Scott Benner 1:14:08
I'm not flying there to have a meal. That's for sure. Although I would that'd be a cool get giveaway, wouldn't it Katie?

Katie 1:14:15
That would be a pretty cool giveaway. I think you just found your next idea.

Unknown Speaker 1:14:19
How would I do that?

Scott Benner 1:14:22
Think about it, Katie. Let's think together for a second. You're a bright person. Are we talking around raffle? Yeah, what do I do with the money? Can I buy something cool with it? Yeah, I'd love to give it to a charity. No, cool. I don't want to keep her money. Okay, so let's think about this realistically. I fly to where you are. And we have a meal And we spend an evening together. All right. Okay. And you and it's a raffle you buy into, okay, it's $100 for a raffle ticket, I give half the money away to a charity. So nobody, like, talks about like, half seems like a lot, but a little bit of the money. Calls yourself, I don't want to be called names. Okay. So let's say 100 People put in $100, the big $10,000. So we got to pay for airfare. I gotta get put up somewhere. I have to have some security with me. Because one of you. Like, I don't want Katie's Mom to win the lottery. You know what I mean? Because she's gonna hear this and like,

Katie 1:15:42
She's not listening to this. Trust me.

Scott Benner 1:15:46
Oh, that would be too supportive. Right, Katie? So, so I gotta make so I gotta, I gotta get airfare out of it and a hotel, something like that. And then, and then what if we made it a tear? So like, if 100 people did it, then I would just come do it as a personal thing. But if we could get 1000 people to do it, hold on a second. Now, we're talking now we're talking a lot of money. And now maybe I could do a thing when I arrived at a place. Like instead of a dinner, maybe it would be like, like a like a like a like a an event of some sort.

Unknown Speaker 1:16:25
All right, it'd be fun.

Scott Benner 1:16:26
And then and then for that much money. I could probably cover everybody's food, too. Yeah. All right, Katie, well, think about this. 1000 people's a lot. There's no way for you to 1500 people.

Katie 1:16:40
I don't know you've got a pretty big platform. I think there would be people willing to buy those tickets. Katie, I

Scott Benner 1:16:47
think I'm not. I don't think I'm monetizing this well enough. What I just swapped myself With That Calculator.

Katie 1:16:54
Charity, it's for charity.

Scott Benner 1:16:56
How about if I start doing a thing for like, $5 a month where you get access to like, unedited, like episodes, where it's just like cursing and whatever. I also think about, you know what else I was thinking about today? Katie, you wanna help me produce the show for a minute? Before we hang out? Yes. I was thinking about doing like a, like a bitch session series. And not like, no, no, like, people can curse if they want or whatever, let people come on and really complain about diabetes. I think it might be cathartic. Oh, that would be great. Like, really like ranting and raving about it. Like just going? Like, like, just being really like, I don't know, there's part of me thinks that would be good.

Katie 1:17:37
You're gonna have diabetic spouses all over the country thanking you for that.

Scott Benner 1:17:42
Because they don't have to listen to the complaints. I was thinking about that. And I was also thinking about, I'm actually I'm gonna definitely do that. So I'm not gonna say that out loud on the podcast, because someone will rip me right off. So I'm not letting that happen. Okay, let's figure this out. Would it be a cruise? Now? Nobody wants to do a cruise, right? Actually, I don't want to be in a bathing suit in front of all of you forget that.

Katie 1:18:09
Our Cruise is still a thing after COVID?

Scott Benner 1:18:13
I mean, yeah, that's where you go to get COVID. Still, you can still readily available on a cruise ship

Katie 1:18:19
or not put a bunch of immunocompromised people on a cruise

Scott Benner 1:18:23
ship. You think that's a poor idea?

Katie 1:18:26
Maybe Maybe let's let's keep thinking on it?

Scott Benner 1:18:30
What if what if we forget the whole thing? And people just like 1000? People just send me $100? Wouldn't that be better?

Katie 1:18:37
I mean, sure, that'd be great.

Scott Benner 1:18:39
Don't worry, I'll find something good to do with the money. I promise you.

Katie 1:18:43
You have fun advertising that Do you

Scott Benner 1:18:45
know I tried wants to get a giveaway actually did try to get a giveaway through us. I don't want to say who this was through somebody. And their attorneys wouldn't let it happen. And the idea was, we were going to do like a raffle. And then I would live at your house for a weekend and help you with your diabetes stuff. If you won the raffle, but the

Speaker 3 1:19:07
attorneys wouldn't go, Bernie said that they could not do that. So

Katie 1:19:13
what was the reason? Were they were they worried? It's because

Scott Benner 1:19:15
of the nature of their business. You can't be seen as enticing people to do something. Okay, so it's hard for me to be more specific than that. But a monetary prize is not legal. So that ends up being the problem.

Katie 1:19:37
I think you've done though, I feel like I heard a podcast where you've done that, I guess, the prize of basically getting to like text you or ask certain questions about diabetes.

Scott Benner 1:19:48
Yeah, that's fun that I'll do. But I'm talking about a big thing where I fly to a place and then I get there and we do a whole thing together. But then when you know what happened, I'll get COVID and like some kid will get COVID and I feel a little head will fall off or something and then they'll be mad at me. I don't want anybody be mad at me.

Katie 1:20:06
Do you say your head will fall off?

Scott Benner 1:20:07
Your head could fall off if he gets sick or something, you know, from Haiti, you don't know anything about medicine, obviously.

Speaker 2 1:20:13
But yeah, you're a new symptom of COVID that I'm unaware of your head just falls

Scott Benner 1:20:16
off. Could happen. Just just, you know, thumps it's just, it's rolling around. And do you think you would say it? No. Your head fell off. And it started rolling around. Would you see the now you'd be dead already? Right? Yeah. What's not trying to make sense of ridiculous things? That's,

Unknown Speaker 1:20:37
that's a waste of time.

Scott Benner 1:20:38
Anyway, I still one day, I feel like I'm going to do this. Imagine if Jenny and I showed up at your house.

Katie 1:20:45
Just like surprised rang the doorbell.

Scott Benner 1:20:49
Oh, that'd be crazy. Like you won the raffle. But nobody told you. What if it's like everyone who entered the raffle was just on Saturday morning thinking it might be me and the

Katie 1:20:59
con degenerates.

Unknown Speaker 1:21:01
Does she do that?

Katie 1:21:02
She's done that. Yeah. Where she just like shows up at people's houses.

Scott Benner 1:21:06
Does she also beat up her staff or something or yell at them or something like that?

Katie 1:21:09
Yeah, maybe don't do that. But I don't

Scott Benner 1:21:11
have a staff.

Katie 1:21:14
Don't Don't do that. But you could show other people's houses.

Scott Benner 1:21:18
Okay. By the way, I don't know anything about all I'm just generous. I'm not saying she did that. Okay, so we do a gift. Alright, so I do a raffle. And the raffle is a certain amount of money. And you could win that I surprise asked show up at your house on a certain day. And we hang out for the whole day together. And, and if and if we double the price Jenny shows up to

Katie 1:21:43
Jenny is great. You should definitely include Jenny's no

Scott Benner 1:21:46
reason to say Jenny's great. I'm great. Jenny's fine. Just relaxed. We don't need to know Jenny's

Katie 1:21:51
Jenny. Jenny's horrible. I don't even

Scott Benner 1:21:53
arable, but I don't know why you got to speak well of her while we're talking about me. It just takes the sunshine away. Now. Just kidding. Jenny's terrific. And yeah, so like, like, what would that be? $200? No, that's a lot of money. $100 is reasonable. You enter into the drawing. And blah, blah, blah. Maybe we like? I don't know. I'll figure it out. This sounds like something that's never going to happen. Okay.

Katie 1:22:21
Brainstorm on it. Brainstorm.

Scott Benner 1:22:23
I'll see what I come up with. We'll put your husband in charge. He seems like he's a he's a decent guy.

Katie 1:22:28
Well, yeah, you do have some ideas for you. What do you really? Probably

Scott Benner 1:22:32
what I need is hours, Katie, I need hours in the day. I got this email today from this company. And they're like, do you want us to edit your podcast for you? And I was like, No, I don't want that. But there's part of me that was like, Yes, I do very much want somebody else to edit my podcast, but they were like, I don't know. I just I'm not doing it. But it sounded very attractive for a couple of minutes. I don't want to pay for that. You understand? I?

Katie 1:22:58
Yeah. I mean, it's it's extra time in your day, but you probably like things done the way that you like things done, right.

Scott Benner 1:23:03
Also, I'm old. What am I gonna do with extra time?

Unknown Speaker 1:23:07
Seriously, how?

Katie 1:23:08
How was the art I'm doing?

Scott Benner 1:23:11
She's good. She's doing really well in school, getting good grades. And a lot of her projects are turning out really well.

Katie 1:23:19
Awesome. sent off to college. Right. I haven't listened to some of the more recent podcasts. But I figured you've got a little bit of extra time now that now that she has flown the nest

Scott Benner 1:23:28
I do. I do have extra time. She's a little like, had a little lower stomach pain this week, she was talking about which we are still trying to figure out like cramping, maybe. But other than that she's been doing terrific. And like the work she's doing, this is a big thing. She did not as a person who spent a lot of time being artistic as a child. She went to, you know, basically art school. And I just saw a pastel that she did. That was really terrific. So she's, she's really immersed herself in it and she's taking it very seriously and teaching herself so vertical. If she's doing great. I won't tell her that you asked because she'll say Please tell your people not to think about me.

Unknown Speaker 1:24:14
All right, hold on one second for me. Okay. Okay.

Scott Benner 1:24:22
I really appreciate Katie coming on the show today and being so open and honest. Thank you so much, Katie. And I want to thank better help and remind you that@betterhelp.com forward slash juicebox you can and will save 10% On your first month of therapy. If you're looking for community around type one diabetes, check out the private Facebook group Juicebox Podcast type one diabetes, and for the diabetes Pro Tip series, the bold beginning series to finding diabetes and all of the management series within the podcast. Check out juicebox podcast.com. Look in the menu at the top or go into the feature tab in the private Facebook group. There are lists of them everywhere there's going to be something you're looking for go check it out

#948 Rebellion is Hard Potatoes

Erika is a licensed marriage and family therapist who herself has had Type 1 diabetes for over 30 years and who specializes in working with people with diabetes and their families and caregivers—from those newly diagnosed to those experiencing it for decades. She and Scott discuss Rebellion.

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Scott Benner 0:00
Hello friends, welcome to episode 948 of the Juicebox Podcast

Erica Forsythe is here today, now we're going to talk about rebellion. And we're not talking about Luke Skywalker and his friends, we're talking about that very human reaction that we all have from time to time. While you're listening, please remember that nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise, always consult a physician before making any changes to your health care plan. Or becoming bold with insulin. You can visit Eric at Eric forsyth.com. Eric is sees patients virtually from Oregon, Utah, Florida and California and she sees patients in person in California. Are you looking to save 35% off of your companies, your towels your sheets, your joggers, cozy earth.com use the offer code juice box at checkout. Want to start every morning with a delicious sip of ag one you can it's what I do, you can do it to drink a G one.com. Get our free one year supply of vitamin D and five free travel packs with your first order at mydlink. If you want to hear more episodes with Erica go to juicebox podcast.com. up to the top, click on mental wellness, you'll see a whole list this episode of The Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by us med go to us med.com forward slash juice box or call 888-721-1514 To get your free benefits check today. Get your diabetes supplies the same way that Arden does from us med us med.com forward slash juice box or call 888-721-1514 The podcast is also sponsored today, by the Omni pod five Omni pod.com forward slash juice box, you're looking for the Omni pod Vive, that's where you're gonna find it, you want the Omni pod dash, it's there to Omni pod.com forward slash juice box. You can use the same insulin pump as Arden, the Omni pod, there are links to us med Omni pod and all the sponsors in the show notes of the audio app you're listening in right now. And at juicebox podcast.com. Or you can just type them into a browser when you use my links. You're supporting the show. And okay, so All right, we are recording. Erica, we are back together again. Hello, hi to go through my list of things that I call Erica. In my notes in my notes app, I know people are gonna be like, Oh my god, Scott, those write some things down. I have like a long list of things that I want to talk to you about. So every time I see you come up on the calendar, you send me a text and you're like, What are we gonna talk about? And then I go look at the list. And I read through and I wait something, wait for somebody to grab me. So what grabbed me this time was rebellion as a human decision. So that is a thing that one day I just opened up my notes app, look for the word Erica and wrote it down. Because I think I'm just I don't know, I'm baffled by it on some level. My first conscious thought about it was as a young person, I was watching Jerry Springer. And there was like this 15 year old girl going through this thing. And it's a thing that happens to people all the time. And I thought like, at what point do you not see the last episode and go, Oh, I'll avoid this. Right? Like, why can't we avoid things that we know? Or are obviously bad for us? And then that thought trance kind of transferred in my head into? Why? You know, I mean, like when you're a young person, it is clear to you no one cares about you as much as your parents, even people with crappy parents, like these are the people right? And yet, there's a rebellion for that. And there's a rebellion at work and people don't like to be told what to do. And I'm, I'm one of those people to some degree, like if you tell me what to do, I'm like, Yeah, I'll probably be doing something different than that. Way. There's no reason for that. You see it in diabetes. Some people are easily they go to their doctor, their doctor tells them something and they fall in lockstep. You know, I mean, like she almost to the to their detriment. And there are other people who as soon as it said to them, they're like, Well, I'm not being told what to do. So is it I mean, it happens in in society as well, right? Like and I'm not even saying that I want everybody to do the same thing or I wish everybody acted right like I don't I don't Don't feel like that. I'm just interested about the human psychology of rebellion. And I was wondering what you had to say about it?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 5:07
I think there are yes, as you said, all sorts of reasons why, and maybe some of them are conscious, some of them are unconscious why a person chooses to rebel. And I think it depends on the, you know, the age and stage that we're talking about, I think they're just to list maybe a few of the reasons. You don't really care how your decision affects others. And that might look like rebellion to the on the outside, right. But your, your instinct is, I'm going to do it this way or my way. And you don't really care if what that looks like or you don't want to conform to society's expectations. I think that might be perceived from the outside as someone being selfish or immature. And then the person who's making that choice might feel like well, I'm just not going to conform to these traditional ways. I think rebellion could also maybe look like depression, sometimes, like there might be a fear of doing something that your parents or your professionals might be advising you to do. And for whatever reason, whether it is depression or another, you know, mental health challenge, I think there's often fear involved or taking risk. And that also might look like you're rebelling, when you just actually can't feel or you feel like you can't do what you're being asked to do. It's yeah,

Scott Benner 6:44
it's just so interesting that, that it seems to be like step one, for most people in every, like, you're presented with something and right away, it's no, like, No, I'm not doing that. You can't make me do that. Like but but there and I get that if you've been if you've been through a situation where somebody is controlled you or something, I would obviously see that but like, with a young person, like like, an eight year old, who's just their whole life, and like what you say one, you say blue, I say red, that's it like right, like, and, and I get the idea, like online, it talks about this here says this theory, what is the urge to rebel describes the unpleasant feeling that emerges when people experience a threat to their free behavior. Like so is that like innate? Like that?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 7:40
Some Yeah, some people feel like it is an innate experience. And some people might describe it more as curiosity, right? Like you're as a child, you, when you're kind of that early, elementary years, or even in preschool years, you know, they why why not? Why do I have to do this? And that can feel like just just, you know, wash your hands after you use the bathroom? Why?

Scott Benner 8:07
Learning? Do you think when they're younger?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 8:10
I think it's learning and there's this curiosity of wanting to understand. Is it A, do they internalize it as a threat to their freedom? I'm not sure they're there yet. As a as a young child. Yeah, I'd say partially learning and just curious, wanting to understand why do I have to do these things that are expected of me?

Scott Benner 8:34
Yeah. And I guess also, like, setting, like, you're testing boundaries, too. But what's the value of testing a boundary? Do you see what I mean by that? Like, like, I mean, I, looking back may have pushed my parents. So like, so you want to see like, how far until this breaks? But why? Why do I care? And people do that in personal relationships, too. I guess he has, like a personal treat of a spouse or, you know, somebody they're dating, almost, like, poorly, to see like, Do you really love me? Like, how much of this will you take? And that I even understand maybe better than, like, with a little kid like, I guess a little kids where it throws me off? Like, where does that come from before you've even seen the world? You know,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 9:25
I think the you're exposed to new things and the way our brain is, I think just the way a brain develops is maybe some kids. I mean, somebody might say it's birth order to firstborns often may just do what they're told. Because of either attachment or because they want to, you know, make their parents proud. They want to abide by all the rules you might see children who are middle or later born. and maybe more resistant and want to, you know, quote, be more independent. But actually, it's not necessarily true independence quite yet. But that's what we often say when our children are like strong willed and doing what they want. And they say, Oh, you're really independent. But it actually really, that isn't true independence quite yet.

Scott Benner 10:18
Do you believe in that the birth order thing?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 10:21
I think I mean, I think it can play out quite frequently to be true with those stereotypes. I don't think it's I don't think it's a set in stone. prognosis of how you act in life, but I think it does. It does play out pretty frequently that way. Okay.

Scott Benner 10:40
I always thought of that as the level of energy the parent has as more and more like, you're like, you have one kid here, like up there s. Oh, my God, like, Don't fall, don't touch this don't get dirty. Like, you know, by the time you have a second kid and they drop a pacifier in the floor, you're licking it off to give it back to them, right? Like the first time it goes through the first kid, you drop it on the floor, and you're like, Well, we have to soak that in bleach and then hit it. Yeah, boil it? Yeah, well, it was some radium and then we'll boil it, bury it in the ground for 1000 years and bring it back up and see if the kid can use it. And literally, by the second kid, you're just saying, Hey, guy, yeah. So I'll get the dirt off in my mouth, and then just give it to you with my spit on it. And then by the time you get to the third or the fourth kid, you're just like, I don't care. Like like, just, just, I mean, try not to die. But I mean, even if you do I got five kids. You know? And I always thought of it that way. And then I thought of the response back from the kid. Because you'll hear I mean, you must hear in therapy all the time, right? Like, people's experiences with their parents have to change to buy where they are in the pecking order. I would think of age. And then they're, I mean, this is a little off topic a little but be honest, like people have favorite kids, right? Do you know I don't obviously, ah, but But it must happen. Right?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 12:07
I think sometimes I hear families describe children as maybe, you know, easier, or this one is our strong willed one, or this one is our more patient one. And so I don't necessarily hear parents say this is my favorite. But sometimes adjectives that are used to describe might reflect their experience of their child, which may or may be true.

Scott Benner 12:32
If I turn my head to this whiteboard that I use to keep the podcast semi coordinated. I will read the words. Arden is my favorite child written by Arden three days after she got home from college. And I've had both my kids stand in front of me go seriously one of us you like one of us better, right? And I'm like, No, but they want to know, they really want that answer. And I've seen in my wife's family, it's a running joke. Because, well, for reasons maybe some my wife's grandmother was not a healthy person in a number of different ways. And she would pull the kids aside when they were doing favorable things and get very close to them and tell them you're my favorite. But then you'd fall out of favor, and she'd go to the next one and tell them you're my favorite. And they actually, like they joke about it. But I don't think they're joking. I think they wonder which one of them's the best. Like she set up a race between them. Almost on purpose, like see who can be grandma's favorite. I don't know what that's got to do with testing boundaries or being rebellious. But we got to that.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 13:40
But did it did it work? Did it? You know, get positive results out of their behaviors? I don't know.

Scott Benner 13:46
I don't Yeah, I don't either. She was she was a drunk. I don't think she was keeping notes. Okay, but So, okay, like digging back into this again, I'm at work, my boss tells me to do something. And that first visceral feeling inside of me is you can't tell me what to do. What the hell is that from?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 14:11
Gosh, I I would want to explore, you know, childhood, parent, parent child dynamics, I would want to understand, you know, how did you? What is your sense of autonomy and agency? Is it a control? Do you feel like you don't want to be controlled, and by and not feel that it's triggering something that made maybe you were a victim of, you know, really harsh things as a child. And so that could be triggering as an adult to when someone says you're going to do this, whether you like it or not. And so maybe you're wanting to fight back, internally. And so you're saying to yourself, I'm not going to do that you can't tell me what to do. I'm going to do it this way. And so you're you're If he feels easier in the moment, to have that narrative play out and choose what you want to do, but knowing that there might be some other consequences, but I would imagine that that it's, it's a result of some kind of learned behavior as a way to cope as maybe, whatever happened as a child, that could be painful.

Scott Benner 15:23
I mean, it's just it is really, it's fascinating. It's and there are some people who are like pleasers, right? You can't ask them enough, they'd be happy to do it to throw themselves off a bridge if you told them. And, you know, like, and that's got to be the same. The same sort of thing in reverse, right? Because, you know, you just said, you just use the phrase, you're gonna do it, whether you want to or not, I have to tell you, I know, that's been said to me before, as as a child, like I know, and I thought, what a terrible thing to say to a kid. And then I thought, but I mean, I am a reasonable adult, I work hard. I take care of myself, I'm reasonably mentally stable. Like, do you don't mean like, it didn't work? Right. And I was like, a rebellious person. As a young child, I always assumed I was being rebellious. I guess, you know, like, I'm adopted. And I never felt, I don't know the best way to say this. I think like, just keeping it kind of clinical is the best way. I think my IQ is about 40 points higher than the people who, who adopted me. So nothing that they thought of is, like an answer to a question never made sense to me. And then I would say, Well, what about this? Or can we try that? And then that didn't make sense to them. And now we're stuck because I feel like I'm doing the right thing. And they feel like they're doing the right thing, but they're paying the bills. So it's, you're gonna do this, whether you want to or not. And, you know, I mean, to some short degree, I told you that story about my dad kind of like, kicking me to the ground one time, I think that was that, like, he was just, I think he was outmatched, and he didn't, he couldn't get me to stop saying what I was saying. So he was going to try to stop me that way. And all that did was make me more resilient and defiant. Where as some people would have, like, just gone the opposite direction with that, and I would understand both like just, you know, capitulating, I would have understood that too.

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Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 21:27
What is the motivation? What's the underlying emotion? That and thinking that's driving that behavior? Could it be I mean thinking about just the diabetes and you know, either preteens teens, or any any age really not wanting to follow you know, the instructions of your doctor or your parents to manage your diabetes. And then people will say, Oh, my child's rebelling and doesn't want to manage their their diabetes the way they need to. So often. Is that is that because of their age and stage and they're being teenagers and rebelling? Or is it more anger. And that's the way they feel like they can control a situation where they feel like they're out of control. And so they don't want to have to do to Pre-Bolus because they're angry at the diabetes, but then it looks like rebellion. But underneath that is sadness, anger, frustration, feeling out of control. Yeah. So understanding I think, at face value, we look at behavior and say, Oh, that kids or that adults, just being rebellious and being kind of a jerk, or being really selfish and immature. But really, there's always, typically something underneath that that's driving the behavior.

Scott Benner 22:43
So the path is, you know, a kid's first word is probably going to be no, right? Tell a kid not take off a seatbelt, take it off. It's my expectation is it's the way you handled as an adult, you have that child, that probably dictates how they experience those rebellious moments, at all stages of their life up into their adulthood, like so you have an opportunity to meet that with loving acceptance, you know what I mean? Like and saying, Hey, I realized you don't want to put that on. But we were because it's makes you safe in the car, we're, you know, or something like that. Or we exercise because of this, or we eat this way because of that. And so you can't, it's feels to me, like what you're telling me is that when it's when it's happening, you don't quell the rebellion. Like that's not the positive way out of this. It's just going to create stronger and stronger and stronger rebellions as you get older. Does that make sense?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 23:48
But yes, potentially. But I know that there are moments when you just you need to get from point A to point B. So using a seatbelt example, I just put the seatbelt on, right? Like you just Yeah, you don't always have time to say, Well, I understand you might be feeling frustrated, and you want to make your own choices as a young person. You know, it's interesting. Realistically, it's hard to check in with the emotion. But you can you can always do that later, too. I think there's we, you know, as parents, myself included, we often forget that we can do repair work at any time. So we can say, Okay, you're putting a seatbelt on right now, because it's the law and I'm telling you to and we're going to this thing, and then later have a conversation no matter what age to say, Tell me about that. Like that time when you didn't want to put your seatbelt on like helped me, you know, what, what, how can we help this process next time?

Scott Benner 24:37
Okay, if I'm gonna say this to you, but go deeper on that helped me more. So I'm 17 years old, and I'm doing something that just seems shady. But the truth is, is that I'm just probably rebelling and trying to find some control of my life that I don't have and that you think is homicide reversal. But around diabetes, I don't like that word. You think you can work out of that?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 25:01
i Yes, I would hope so be it will take it also matters. What is your current relationship like with your child? I mean, I think if you were, it was a highly conflictual, combative, non compassionate, non empathetic relationship, it'd be hard to start right in at that moment. But that can be built over time, even if you are starting as you're noticing your team become more rebellious and make choices that you feel like are risky and unsafe, which is also, again, part of their adolescence and what they're going to do naturally. So I think it's finding, in that moment, understanding and validating, I understand this is you wanting to, you know, explore and take risks and see what you're comfortable with? How can we find a middle ground? If it's the, the diabetes example? I think, going into the emotion when they are not wanting to change their do a site change, or use Pre-Bolus? Because that's a frequent topic. What So tell me, what is that about? Like, what is it? Is it fear? Is it sadness? Is it embarrassment, oftentimes, it's just, you know, the teen wanting to be like their, their peers, they don't want to have to pause, they don't want to have to think about it. So gosh, that must be really frustrating in those moments when you just want to keep going and keep going with your friends and keep eating and keep doing the next thing you don't want to do that your life to be interfered with in that moment. And so it looks like you're you're wanting to rebel, but no, you're you don't want to rebel. You want to take care of yourself. Yeah,

Scott Benner 26:45
I want to I'm gonna turn this all right on to diabetes in a minute. But I know I've said this, I think in the past to you, but when we were teenagers, we dated the Catholic school girls, because they were more fun. But they were more fun because they were being repressed more like that. Yes, we have talked about Yeah, right. Like, you know, you say the same thing to a girl in public school who had a lot of autonomy over her life, and she'd be like, Get away from me. And like you don't know, like, alright, okay. But then you go find somebody who's being restrained somehow. And they have a desire to just do whatever the opposite of that is. And, you know, what else did you see? Oh, but I noticed girls with long hair cut their hair short, when they graduated from high school, girls to short hair, or their hair long, people were smoking who you knew didn't like smoking. Like they weren't interested in it. They didn't like it, but there they were, they were like, I'm gonna smoke cigarettes. I'm gonna date boys. I'm not supposed to. I'm gonna like, seriously, like, always the worst boys, like, like, we joke about it growing up. And you guys will say to each other, like, just be meaner, and they'll want to go out with you. Like, and I know that's not real. But it feels real. Because they're because their parents are probably like, look, meet a nice guy or meet a nice girl. And they're like, Well, I'm gonna go do the opposite. I have like, purposefully counter programmed things I've said to my kids over the years, like, I'm like, if I say that, it's definitely gonna go the other way. So, you know, but but then it leads me into this thought this thing I think about all the time, when we were taking coal to college for the first time, we were in some like parental seminar. And somebody raises their hand and just says, like, I don't want my kid to have access to alcohol. And the woman at the front of the room was like, what? It's so and she's like, we are adults. We can't stop that. Which obviously was like the legal answer for the school about how they stay out of it's like, Hey, kids are 18 if they want to break the law, they can it's not up to you, we don't have to tell you, they're doing it etc. And then the conversation moved on, and she's like, but don't worry. She's like our research says it's only like 5050 And like, like half of the kids will never drink while they're here. And half of them will and because I'm not a drinker, I thought oh, okay, well my kids probably won't drink then. And that kind of worked out like hold doesn't enjoy drinking. I don't think that he didn't try but he was like I'm right. I don't like this. But he also didn't have a ton to rebel against. And so but summit, but the kids that I'm thinking of who looked like they were really had the screws turned on him by their parents, like you could kind of tell they were the ones that went the wild as to college. And so but what are you doing that for to prove it to yourself to prove it to someone else? Is it because the feeling is just that free feeling feels good? You don't I mean, I don't know that I think yes, this is what I wonder.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 29:52
I think it's so those may be the those types of people that you were just talking about there. I think they're trying to show like okay, I going into college and now it's my turn and my time to be independent, I can make all these decisions that my parents have said no to, and they've, you know, all I'm gonna go live my life. And really, they think that they're being independent. But they're, they're actually still dependent on there. They're trying to make their self deficient, their definition, their personal conduct, their value on doing the opposite of what other people want. So they're still, they're still dependent

Scott Benner 30:35
on they're just being controlled by a different God at that point. Right? Yeah. Yeah. So instead of your mommy telling you what to do. Now, drinking culture is telling you what to do. Or I'm dating a guy I don't even like because my mom doesn't like him or girl, Billy, etc. Like like that? That really does. Okay, that makes sense to me. So you're never alright. Are you telling me we're never really free? But there's ways to feel free?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 31:03
Oh, my gosh, by no, no, I think I think the, the, I think the mentality of someone going to college and saying, I'm gonna make all these choices that I wasn't allowed to make, or I was told I couldn't. And I would have all these consequences. If I did. Now I have the freedom to go do what I want to do. You're you're still relying or depending on doing the opposite of what other people want, which still is controlling you. But that's just like the next stage. So maybe the people who are going to college who aren't making those choices, as rebellion, but they're free, like let's say, you know, coal, like you were sharing you he didn't enter into college with this negative or kind of controlled parenting lifestyle that you had, right? So he felt like I can, I'll try it. But it's not I don't really care. Either way. I'll just see if I like it or not. Yeah, it wasn't because Dad told me not to, or he told me, whatever, go go for it. You probably modeled a very neutral position.

Scott Benner 32:15
If I told you the things I told my kid before I went to college, I said, I said, Listen, there's only a couple of things in this life you can't do. And he's like, okay, and I was like, they're like the, I said, they're the unfuckable things. And he goes, Why don't like the things that once you lock them up, you can. He was like, alright, and I said, don't kill somebody. Don't do it with a car, don't do it with your hands. He can't get out of that. As like, don't get a lady pregnant. You can't get out of that. And I was like, that's pretty much it. As in everything else, was talking and an attorney, I'm sure we could turn around. I was like, I was like those two things, like and I said, Look, forget those two things. You don't do something you can't, you can't apologize for or reverse or fix or anything like that. I'm like things that are are just, and I said it again, I'm like, they're unpredictable. And I didn't mean that as like, obviously, that seems like a bad pun, but I wasn't saying it to him like that at the time. Like I really was just like, there are just some things you can't you can't go back in time for. And I was like, those are the things you want to avoid. And I said, you know, be careful driving your car. And you know, don't. That's the kind of stuff man like there's I said, somebody at that school is going to like you guys are all going to come in and a couple of his kids aren't going to leave. Like they're, they're going to die there was like one or two statistically aren't making it out. And it's going to be some stupid story about them falling off a balcony or getting hit by a car crossing the street. I'm like, that's the thing. You don't want to get hit by the car. You don't want to be the car hitting them. I was like those things I said, because you'll never even if it's an accident, you're never going to forget that you took someone's life. Like I was like, that's the thing. You can't, you can't get back from like, you just can't get back or it's the same thing of like, I hate to say but like if you have a child die. I mean, go to therapy, do whatever you're going to do. I don't know how you're getting out of that. You know what I mean? Like ketamine, maybe? Or mushrooms. I don't know what you're doing. But I don't know how you're gonna forget that. You know what I mean? So like, just, you need to avoid those things that are going to do that. And he, you know, he took me seriously and, and he left I told my daughter the same thing. I was like, I'm like, You have a couple lectures. I'm like, You're a girl. I was like, you know, I hate to say it like that. It was like but you gotta be careful. You know, and inside of six months, she's like that I was walking down the street and like three homeless guys were really aggressively yelling at me. And I was like, okay, and I thought, Oh, wow, I never thought about that once when Cole went to school, because Coca Cola could have turned around and like, took care of him. So you know what I mean? And or, I don't know, even if he could know me, like, I have that feeling in my head of like, maybe you could fight his way out of a problem. You know, I'm not saying Arden wouldn't fight actually Arden told me later, she's like, I think me and my one roommate, she goes, I think we could take down one guy together. Just like we appear to have that kind of anger. And I was like, alright, but just that that whole feeling of, I don't know, but like, Did I run the risk of my son going like, Well, I'm gonna do the exact opposite of what that guy just said. I did, but I thought I had him set up well enough that that wouldn't be the response. But you know, if I was a bad parent for 18 years, and on his way out the door, I went, don't get anyone pregnant, he probably would have you mean, like, he probably would have been not careful with his dating choices. So how does all of this I think it's obvious that I brought this up, because I've interviewed about 1000 people. And I'm either talking to a parent whose child is rebelling, or a parent who is worried that they're going to do something that causes a rebellion, or I've talked to a teenager who says, you know, you know, some kids go off to college and drink their face off, I went off to college and stopped giving myself insulin. Like that was their collegiate rebellion, right. And then they either are lucky enough to see the error of their ways and go back, or some of them end up on here, 40 years old, talking about, I can't see out of my left eye and like, blah, blah, blah. And so it's a big concern around diabetes, because I think the picture I tried, and you helped me pain is that this is going to happen no matter what, it's a human condition. Yes. And how do we keep it from impacting, like our long term health? Like that, to me is the real question once your kid has diabetes, or even once you do, like, I mean, honestly, if I, if I just develop diabetes today, I've told you enough stories, like I might rebel against that, like, I don't think I would right now. But who knows where I would point that at? I'm probably still mad about all that stuff. So I mean, the other day in traffic, someone did try to hit me. And my daughter was like, hey, hold all that Fillion? Could you like, okay, she's like, we don't, you don't live there anymore. And I was like, this guy I know he's messing with. And then she's like, she's 50. And I was like, Yeah, I'm like, but not to get too far down. And I said to her, I'm like, you, you can't mess with people. You don't know what they've been through. Like, like, like, I always tell my kids, I'm like, You can't mess with somebody who's willing to go farther than you. Because once you're in it, like Erica, once it's happening, and you're standing on the side of the road, one of us gonna kill the other one. And like, and one of us willing to do it, and you don't know who they are. And they never look like that person in the moment. And I have to tell you, that somewhere deep down inside of me, I might be that guy. Like, we get out and we start going, I might not know when to stop at some point. And I don't look like that person. And so that's how I teach my kids. I'm like, you don't know who it's going to be who you're going to unleash something from, you know what I mean? So anyway, again, not about rebellion, but probably at the same time. Yes, about rebellion. Okay, so. So from your perspective, if a parent came to you and said, My concern here is that when this rebellious nature comes, they're going to turn it on their diabetes, what would you say to them?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 38:37
Yeah, or unless it's, if it already has started,

Scott Benner 38:40
right, either,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 38:41
I think yeah, I think if I'm speaking with the parent, again, I would go back to the What is your relationship like with your child, what are your How are you building trust? How are you building communicate connection, what is your communication style like understanding is it kind of mean you are the parents so it is going to be top down in terms of you know, boundary setting rules discipline, but in the parent child diabetes relationship, it has to be special and it has to be safe and sacred. And I think the rebel you know, the the fear of parent have a fear of your child rebelling, using diabetes. It's, it's always, most likely something that's under and what how do you feel I'd want I'd say okay, parent, check in with your child, ask them How are you feeling about diabetes? What is it? What How was your day like today with diabetes? What are your if you could write a letter, or if you could talk to diabetes, what would it be and oftentimes, the teens are going And to be angry at their parents about why are you telling me to Pre-Bolus? Really, you're angry, they're angry at the, like the fact that they even have to Sure Pre-Bolus. And I know it's obvious, but I think in the moment after day after day after day of trying to manage it, we forget, we forget that the chronic illness is going to always be connected to some sort of emotion, whether it's kind of flippant, like, Ah, it's fine. It's kind of on the backburner. We're doing fine to a site change day and your your child is dreading it all day long. And maybe they've had a bad day in their ears, they're irritable, they've gotten to a fight with their teacher or their friends, because really, in the back of their mind, like I have to change my pump. Today, I have changed my CGM. And we think as parents or caregivers, that's like such a small thing. It takes five minutes. Yeah. But it can be sitting there in the back of their mind for the until maybe you change it. And three days later, they're already anticipating the next thing. So these smaller things that obviously can add up. So sorry, going to back to what can you tell the parent who's concerned about the rebellion that is either creeping up or already happening would be to, you know, set the diabetes aside as much as you can connect emotionally with your child. And if you don't know how to do that, you know, get get help, and how to do that. And check in with them there. And if they are resistant to talking, that's, that's okay, too. And, you know, giving them the time and space sorry,

Scott Benner 41:38
no, no, the time and space thing is I keep I don't want to lose my thought, which is, I imagine people listening would find it odd to hear me say, but there are moments where if Arden's having like a higher blood sugar, I look at the whole day, and the whole week, and I say this isn't worth it right now. Like I'd rather her blood sugar be 180 for a while, then for her to see me come into her room or onto her face time being like, Hey, I'm here to remind you that you're not doing the thing you're supposed to be doing. Because that's what it feels like no matter how nicely you do it. That's where the texts are like, I know, I got it. Like, that's what that means. It just means I don't want to think about this right now. And it's unfair, because it's, you know, one of the few things that if you decide not to think about it, I mean, honestly, it's, I don't know if it's minute for minute, but you are taken back in seconds off your life with this decision you're making, but we all do that, right? Like, like somebody's gonna make a decision. It's Friday, somebody's gonna make a decision tonight to have two big scotches and go away in their head, and they're probably going to lose 10 minutes off the back end of their life. It's a trade they've decided to make, right? And so if we're talking about freedom, and that freedom is the reason the the idea that freedom could be taken, is the reason you rebel. I do. I believe that. And so if you start attaching that directly to the diabetes, it's going to go the wrong way. Like it just is like because then that's going to be their self soothing is going to be not taking care of themselves. Erica smile because I use the I think I use the therapy word just like this idiots actually listening. Right, so they're gonna make the rebellion become Oh, I see. So the rebellion becomes their self soothing, which sends them down the path which makes you push back harder, which only strengthens it's more and that's why you haven't talked to your mom nicely since you were 1910. That took me 45 minutes to take me 45 minutes. 39 I'm getting better. Okay. Okay, all right. That all makes sense.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 43:54
So the self I mean, I yeah, I think the self soothing or that's your, your coping, right? Like you feel like, in the moment, I don't want to take my insulin and jacked Bolus, if it's conscious sometimes, you know, we all forget sometimes. But if you're saying I'm out, I don't want to do this. I'm I'm don't want to face all of the emotion I have connected to this. So I'm going to cope in the moment by choosing to ignore it. By choosing not to do what I know I'm supposed to do, because it feels it feels it feels easier in the moment, it feels better, I feel more free. I feel like I have more control. And, and we're not always thinking about obviously the future implications just, it's hard to

Scott Benner 44:41
and then it'll become a pattern. And then you will really be in trouble. Like I saw one ad blood sugar for two hours isn't going to kill you. But if you make one at your norm because you've just like put up that wall and now there's no conversation to be had about it. And then eventually I hate to tell you, your kid's gonna get old and they're gonna leave and then wherever they They are is where they're going to be when they get out. And then now you're just blindly hoping that you know one of those things you've heard on the podcast so many times, like I met somebody and I wanted to be healthier, I decided I wanted to have a baby or something like that, unless one of those things happens, you'll just keep going. And the years and the months go by very, very quickly, you won't, you won't realize it, it will happen so fast. And your body, of course, on the physiological side, adjusts to the higher blood sugar, so you don't notice it anymore as much. And there's just nothing pushing you towards, towards helping yourself at that point. And you do feel like you're helping yourself. Because you mom, you can't tell me what to do. Oh, wow. Are you being serious? Are we just really early on? In humanity? Like, this can't be like the level of did only mean, like, we're not that far away from cavemen is what I'm saying.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 45:54
You mean? How evolved? Are we? Yeah,

Scott Benner 45:56
not that far. Right. Don't you think?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 46:04
Well, I think, Gosh, we've been given, you know, freedom to make choices, right? As since we were born, and to are we are we far off from us? How far off? Are we from just saying, you know, screw it, I'm gonna do what I want. I think when that pattern, when that becomes a pattern, then you obviously have, you've lost that space to make that show like, Oh, I'm making the choice to do what I want, right? Because it's just become habit. Whereas initially, you're, you're maybe consciously making more of a choice, I'd like I'm gonna do this other thing, because that's what I want to do. And then it just becomes habit. But when, when you can pause and look what's underneath that it's often even more emotion, such as shame, or blame. And so thinking about the teen, or, or the parent or the or the adult living with type one. You have maybe habitually just said, I, you know, I'm gonna figure this out tomorrow, or I just keep forgetting. You feel don't feel great underneath that.

Scott Benner 47:21
Yeah, I mean, this might seem like a right turn to people. But we're 400 years away from the beginning of like, the American frontier period, right? Where you would have like, traded your daughter for a couple of goats at some point, right? I'm not kidding. Like, that's a couple of 100 years ago, where are we still in the early 1900s, like late 1800s, early 1900s, you could just have a dispute with somebody and just shoot them. And everybody would just go well, yeah, he deserved it. And that was like the end of it. Like, so. We're not that far removed from that. And now we're trying to have all these big thoughts. And some of us I mean, I mean, honestly, I feel like I'm, I'm a fairly common sense person, I have a reasonable level of intelligence. And we just spent 39 minutes talking about something and my brain went, Oh, yeah, I see it now. But I don't know that that means that 10 minutes from now, I can actually do this in my life. Like on the fly while I'm living, it's not just going to happen, right? Like, I'm gonna make this small, incremental step that I hopefully passed on to my kid, he's gonna make a small incremental step that he'll pass on to his kid. And 400 years from now, we won't be shooting each other in the streets anymore. Like, you know, commonplace. And so that's what I'm saying. Like, it's our how this is gonna sound so like crunchy, I'm sorry, like, the length of our time commensurate to the length of history. Like, it's just, we're just, we really are a blip. And we're just moving things slowly, like very slowly. But in this moment in time, we're all stuck with emotions and thoughts and ideas that we about understand about 25%. And yet we're trying everyone's trying to do the right thing. But we're not like we're it almost feels like we're still going against our wiring. Does that make sense?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 49:11
Like going against our wiring in terms of making the best decision in

Scott Benner 49:15
terms of your America, let me just be honest. I pulled out of the Walgreens parking lot the other day. And we were making a right turn into a red light. Like none of us were going anywhere. And a car was coming from my left. I did not cut him off. I didn't pull out quickly. He had plenty of time. He was speeding towards the red light. Then when I pulled out in front of him, he sped up. It was a it was a few like, right, right. And then the part of me that grew up outside of Philadelphia with his dad yelling at him was like, Yo, what are you doing? And like now I'm looking at him in my rearview mirror. Like if I had I have to get out the car and kill you. I guess this is where my life ends. Like suddenly this has become like important. And I know it's not right. I know it's not important. I'm not really mad. But there's something that lights up inside of me. So he comes Cook, like, crashing up to the rear of my car very close. And I am now yelling at him through my rear view mirror. And it's not like, Hey, what are you doing? It's like, I will kill you. And like, like, and like and my daughter is now with me. I am not that person. Generally speaking, she's got her hand on my hand on hand. She's like, Hey, it's okay. It felt like I was the Hulk. And she was Scarlett Johansson. And she was like, she was like, It's okay big guy. Like, like, and I'm like, I'm like, No, I'm sorry, I have to leave you and your brother and your mom, because I have to go kill this guy in the street now for this affront, right. And obviously, I get past that pretty quickly. And I'm like, Alright, I'm okay. Thank you. And we keep we keep moving up. And he is now gesturing to us. And it was not flattering gestures. He wasn't saying I love you with like the handbag or anything like that. And she's like, just ignore him. And I was I just ignored him, I was fine. She said, actually just make a left here. Like, let's let him go. And I'll go home. And I'm like, and we'll go home a different way. And I was like, you know, great idea. I get over into the left lane. I'm okay, I'm done. He drives by gives us the finger, I pull right back out behind him. And my, my daughter's like, what are we doing now. And I was like, I'm like, we're just going to intimidate him at this red light for a little bit. So he has to wonder if we're gonna get out of the car and hit him with a bat. So he has to live in that space for two minutes before the light turns green. And we go are several ways. I'm gonna, I'm gonna and and she goes, that's really what you're doing. And I'm like, yeah. And then I was like, oh my god, that is really what I'm doing. Like, I'm sitting behind him hoping that he is worried that I'm going to hurt him. And then the light turned green, I made a left and he went straight. And it was over. And I thought, yeah, like 150 years ago, I definitely would have shot you in the street. 100% I would have shot him if it was at 95. So you sign your wagon? Yeah. Oh, for just like, I don't know, for certain I don't feel like I can take a life. But I put myself back in 150 years, I put myself in different situations. And I think maybe, you know, like, so we're not that far away from all this. And then we're having these big conversations. And it's no wonder that everybody feels like, Oh, I'm anxious. And I don't know what to do about it. Or like, like, we're just not, we're not there yet. Like, I don't know, one other way to put that, like, we got more like, if this was a crock pot, like we got like eight more hours, you know what I mean?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 52:42
So that's good.

Scott Benner 52:46
Are our potatoes are not soft yet, Erica. Anyway, so my point around all that is, is that while people are trying to live that a better life in this time period, and they feel like they're being met with so many, you know, blockades and roadblocks that they that their brains don't feel capable of getting around. While that's happening to everyone. And some of us are trying to live with children who have type one or other, you know, important issues to be dealt with, or our type on ourselves. And we are trying to make better decisions. When you know, our better angels are telling us one thing and the way our brain works is like, like flick pool monkey, basically, you know, like it's

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 53:29
Yeah, and I think sometimes the rebellion even though even actively while you're doing it, like just even if you're a car example, you're doing it then maybe there's a part of you like, why am I like you, you kind of looked sounded like you kind of went in and out of this. Like, yeah, that's what I'm doing. Why am I doing this? This is crazy. But then I'm still but I still want to do it.

Scott Benner 53:51
Yeah. Not a desire of mine. Yeah. And I grew up like that. Like, yeah, I grew up like I remember once I was on a back street with my father. I was maybe 15 or 16. He was driving. And no, I was learning to drive. I was 16. I was driving his car. And he was next to me. And we were driving home on a back street. And a guy flew up on us and went right around us and took off. And I had not been driving very long. And my dad demanded that I catch that man's car. He was like, catch him. And I was like, what? And he's like, catch him get in front of him and stop him. And I did that. And then my dad got out of the car, walked over to his car, got him to roll his window down a little bit, leaned in, spoke to him for a minute, came back, got in the car and said he'll never do that again. And I know my dad felt like he was policing the neighborhood he lived in. I know he felt like that and to this day. I believe in that. Like if someone doesn't do it who's going to like that idea? Still stuck there. it stuck with me. And meanwhile, everything about the scenario was very scary. And not something I wanted to do it in any way, shape or form. And yesterday, the same thing, like I know, it's the same exact thing. I didn't think of it till just now when we were talking. But by the way, this is why everyone should probably go to therapy. But but I didn't realize that until we were talking about like, that person had done something wrong. And it's my feeling that it's almost my job to make sure that they don't do it again, which almost doesn't make you know what oddly makes a lot of sense and no sense all at the same time. Right. Right. So

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 55:35
you want to make sure yeah, it's just your anger and rage is justified because you're trying to right, the wrong or, you know, reflect to him how he made a mistake. Yeah. And meanwhile,

Scott Benner 55:47
I've done things in traffic as an example, where I'm like, oh, like, that was a mistake. I turned somewhere I shouldn't have or something like that. I immediately am like, Oh, I'm so sorry. Like, I'm almost like, I was in a car going, Oh, my God, it's my fault. I'm sorry. Like it does, obviously me, you know, like, but on that other end of it, like he was speeding towards a bunch of people stopping at a red light. I got in front of him. And it lit something up in him. He did not want to be behind someone else. And then it suddenly felt personal after that. Yeah. When obviously it's not. Anyway, fascinating. Was I rebelling against something? I don't know. To think about that little

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 56:26
more rebelling against maybe what you weren't, you knew what was right and wrong. I don't know. I do have a stroke. It felt right to you at the moment. But

Scott Benner 56:35
yeah, but I mean, I joked a little earlier. But like there is that feeling like that in the pursuit of what's right. It's okay, if I have to die in the street for it, which is silly. You know what I mean? And the only thing that stops me like Arden told me later she goes, now that I'm in the south, I know. I'm supposed to tell you all that she's in Chicago, but she's going this college in the South. She goes, when I first got down there, I thought, Oh my God, these people really don't drive well. And it was in. She's like, it was upsetting. And she goes, but I've let it all go. And I said why she goes, I don't think they know. And she was be I think they all have a gun. And I was I was like, okay, she goes, so you know, I don't want to get shot. So I don't care. And I was like, wow, that's a good argument for everybody having a hand. Conquer write down. She's like, I don't care what you do over there. Anyway, Erica, this is a big problem, right? For people with diabetes and their kids.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 57:37
It is a challenge for sure. And I think understanding part of it is normal, no matter how fabulous and connected. You are with your teen or your teen is with you. Part of it's going to be natural and normal. And to allow those moments to happen. As much I know, it is so challenging. But then also, trying to find those inroads in those moments that it is it is more than the behavior that you're seeing on the outside which you are, which looks like rebellion. And finding those moments and inroads to sit and talk and reflect and connect Anymote. And however it might, it might be 30 seconds. I think also, we have these expectations. Sometimes we're gonna sit and have this long, you know, dialogue, maybe it's a quick walk, it's a quick drive. But validating your teen and their emotions around diabetes will go very far. And I know a lot of you guys do that. And it's still not enough and it is challenging. But stick to keep at it.

Scott Benner 58:47
I appreciate you doing this this topics been on my list for a while because I think I just wanted to say to people don't let your monkey brains ruin your health. If you can help it. That's pretty much pretty much my mess.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 58:58
You got it in Yeah.

Scott Benner 59:00
Okay. All right. Thank you so much.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 59:02
You're welcome.

Scott Benner 59:11
Eric is delightful, and she resides at Erica forsythe.com Omni pod is a sponsor of the podcast and specifically of this episode, thank them by going to Omni pod.com forward slash juice box to get started today to learn more to get our free trial, where to check your coverage and of course us med.com forward slash juicebox get your free benefits check. Don't like the internet. Use the phone 888-721-1514 Get your supplies the same way Arden does from us MIT. I want to thank you so much for listening. I'll be back very soon with another episode of The Juicebox Podcast.