#948 Rebellion is Hard Potatoes

July 6, 2023Scott Benner

Erika is a licensed marriage and family therapist who herself has had Type 1 diabetes for over 30 years and who specializes in working with people with diabetes and their families and caregivers—from those newly diagnosed to those experiencing it for decades. She and Scott discuss Rebellion.

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Scott Benner 0:00
Hello friends, welcome to episode 948 of the Juicebox Podcast

Erica Forsythe is here today, now we're going to talk about rebellion. And we're not talking about Luke Skywalker and his friends, we're talking about that very human reaction that we all have from time to time. While you're listening, please remember that nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise, always consult a physician before making any changes to your health care plan. Or becoming bold with insulin. You can visit Eric at Eric forsyth.com. Eric is sees patients virtually from Oregon, Utah, Florida and California and she sees patients in person in California. Are you looking to save 35% off of your companies, your towels your sheets, your joggers, cozy earth.com use the offer code juice box at checkout. Want to start every morning with a delicious sip of ag one you can it's what I do, you can do it to drink a G one.com. Get our free one year supply of vitamin D and five free travel packs with your first order at mydlink. If you want to hear more episodes with Erica go to juicebox podcast.com. up to the top, click on mental wellness, you'll see a whole list this episode of The Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by us med go to us med.com forward slash juice box or call 888-721-1514 To get your free benefits check today. Get your diabetes supplies the same way that Arden does from us med us med.com forward slash juice box or call 888-721-1514 The podcast is also sponsored today, by the Omni pod five Omni pod.com forward slash juice box, you're looking for the Omni pod Vive, that's where you're gonna find it, you want the Omni pod dash, it's there to Omni pod.com forward slash juice box. You can use the same insulin pump as Arden, the Omni pod, there are links to us med Omni pod and all the sponsors in the show notes of the audio app you're listening in right now. And at juicebox podcast.com. Or you can just type them into a browser when you use my links. You're supporting the show. And okay, so All right, we are recording. Erica, we are back together again. Hello, hi to go through my list of things that I call Erica. In my notes in my notes app, I know people are gonna be like, Oh my god, Scott, those write some things down. I have like a long list of things that I want to talk to you about. So every time I see you come up on the calendar, you send me a text and you're like, What are we gonna talk about? And then I go look at the list. And I read through and I wait something, wait for somebody to grab me. So what grabbed me this time was rebellion as a human decision. So that is a thing that one day I just opened up my notes app, look for the word Erica and wrote it down. Because I think I'm just I don't know, I'm baffled by it on some level. My first conscious thought about it was as a young person, I was watching Jerry Springer. And there was like this 15 year old girl going through this thing. And it's a thing that happens to people all the time. And I thought like, at what point do you not see the last episode and go, Oh, I'll avoid this. Right? Like, why can't we avoid things that we know? Or are obviously bad for us? And then that thought trance kind of transferred in my head into? Why? You know, I mean, like when you're a young person, it is clear to you no one cares about you as much as your parents, even people with crappy parents, like these are the people right? And yet, there's a rebellion for that. And there's a rebellion at work and people don't like to be told what to do. And I'm, I'm one of those people to some degree, like if you tell me what to do, I'm like, Yeah, I'll probably be doing something different than that. Way. There's no reason for that. You see it in diabetes. Some people are easily they go to their doctor, their doctor tells them something and they fall in lockstep. You know, I mean, like she almost to the to their detriment. And there are other people who as soon as it said to them, they're like, Well, I'm not being told what to do. So is it I mean, it happens in in society as well, right? Like and I'm not even saying that I want everybody to do the same thing or I wish everybody acted right like I don't I don't Don't feel like that. I'm just interested about the human psychology of rebellion. And I was wondering what you had to say about it?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 5:07
I think there are yes, as you said, all sorts of reasons why, and maybe some of them are conscious, some of them are unconscious why a person chooses to rebel. And I think it depends on the, you know, the age and stage that we're talking about, I think they're just to list maybe a few of the reasons. You don't really care how your decision affects others. And that might look like rebellion to the on the outside, right. But your, your instinct is, I'm going to do it this way or my way. And you don't really care if what that looks like or you don't want to conform to society's expectations. I think that might be perceived from the outside as someone being selfish or immature. And then the person who's making that choice might feel like well, I'm just not going to conform to these traditional ways. I think rebellion could also maybe look like depression, sometimes, like there might be a fear of doing something that your parents or your professionals might be advising you to do. And for whatever reason, whether it is depression or another, you know, mental health challenge, I think there's often fear involved or taking risk. And that also might look like you're rebelling, when you just actually can't feel or you feel like you can't do what you're being asked to do. It's yeah,

Scott Benner 6:44
it's just so interesting that, that it seems to be like step one, for most people in every, like, you're presented with something and right away, it's no, like, No, I'm not doing that. You can't make me do that. Like but but there and I get that if you've been if you've been through a situation where somebody is controlled you or something, I would obviously see that but like, with a young person, like like, an eight year old, who's just their whole life, and like what you say one, you say blue, I say red, that's it like right, like, and, and I get the idea, like online, it talks about this here says this theory, what is the urge to rebel describes the unpleasant feeling that emerges when people experience a threat to their free behavior. Like so is that like innate? Like that?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 7:40
Some Yeah, some people feel like it is an innate experience. And some people might describe it more as curiosity, right? Like you're as a child, you, when you're kind of that early, elementary years, or even in preschool years, you know, they why why not? Why do I have to do this? And that can feel like just just, you know, wash your hands after you use the bathroom? Why?

Scott Benner 8:07
Learning? Do you think when they're younger?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 8:10
I think it's learning and there's this curiosity of wanting to understand. Is it A, do they internalize it as a threat to their freedom? I'm not sure they're there yet. As a as a young child. Yeah, I'd say partially learning and just curious, wanting to understand why do I have to do these things that are expected of me?

Scott Benner 8:34
Yeah. And I guess also, like, setting, like, you're testing boundaries, too. But what's the value of testing a boundary? Do you see what I mean by that? Like, like, I mean, I, looking back may have pushed my parents. So like, so you want to see like, how far until this breaks? But why? Why do I care? And people do that in personal relationships, too. I guess he has, like a personal treat of a spouse or, you know, somebody they're dating, almost, like, poorly, to see like, Do you really love me? Like, how much of this will you take? And that I even understand maybe better than, like, with a little kid like, I guess a little kids where it throws me off? Like, where does that come from before you've even seen the world? You know,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 9:25
I think the you're exposed to new things and the way our brain is, I think just the way a brain develops is maybe some kids. I mean, somebody might say it's birth order to firstborns often may just do what they're told. Because of either attachment or because they want to, you know, make their parents proud. They want to abide by all the rules you might see children who are middle or later born. and maybe more resistant and want to, you know, quote, be more independent. But actually, it's not necessarily true independence quite yet. But that's what we often say when our children are like strong willed and doing what they want. And they say, Oh, you're really independent. But it actually really, that isn't true independence quite yet.

Scott Benner 10:18
Do you believe in that the birth order thing?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 10:21
I think I mean, I think it can play out quite frequently to be true with those stereotypes. I don't think it's I don't think it's a set in stone. prognosis of how you act in life, but I think it does. It does play out pretty frequently that way. Okay.

Scott Benner 10:40
I always thought of that as the level of energy the parent has as more and more like, you're like, you have one kid here, like up there s. Oh, my God, like, Don't fall, don't touch this don't get dirty. Like, you know, by the time you have a second kid and they drop a pacifier in the floor, you're licking it off to give it back to them, right? Like the first time it goes through the first kid, you drop it on the floor, and you're like, Well, we have to soak that in bleach and then hit it. Yeah, boil it? Yeah, well, it was some radium and then we'll boil it, bury it in the ground for 1000 years and bring it back up and see if the kid can use it. And literally, by the second kid, you're just saying, Hey, guy, yeah. So I'll get the dirt off in my mouth, and then just give it to you with my spit on it. And then by the time you get to the third or the fourth kid, you're just like, I don't care. Like like, just, just, I mean, try not to die. But I mean, even if you do I got five kids. You know? And I always thought of it that way. And then I thought of the response back from the kid. Because you'll hear I mean, you must hear in therapy all the time, right? Like, people's experiences with their parents have to change to buy where they are in the pecking order. I would think of age. And then they're, I mean, this is a little off topic a little but be honest, like people have favorite kids, right? Do you know I don't obviously, ah, but But it must happen. Right?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 12:07
I think sometimes I hear families describe children as maybe, you know, easier, or this one is our strong willed one, or this one is our more patient one. And so I don't necessarily hear parents say this is my favorite. But sometimes adjectives that are used to describe might reflect their experience of their child, which may or may be true.

Scott Benner 12:32
If I turn my head to this whiteboard that I use to keep the podcast semi coordinated. I will read the words. Arden is my favorite child written by Arden three days after she got home from college. And I've had both my kids stand in front of me go seriously one of us you like one of us better, right? And I'm like, No, but they want to know, they really want that answer. And I've seen in my wife's family, it's a running joke. Because, well, for reasons maybe some my wife's grandmother was not a healthy person in a number of different ways. And she would pull the kids aside when they were doing favorable things and get very close to them and tell them you're my favorite. But then you'd fall out of favor, and she'd go to the next one and tell them you're my favorite. And they actually, like they joke about it. But I don't think they're joking. I think they wonder which one of them's the best. Like she set up a race between them. Almost on purpose, like see who can be grandma's favorite. I don't know what that's got to do with testing boundaries or being rebellious. But we got to that.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 13:40
But did it did it work? Did it? You know, get positive results out of their behaviors? I don't know.

Scott Benner 13:46
I don't Yeah, I don't either. She was she was a drunk. I don't think she was keeping notes. Okay, but So, okay, like digging back into this again, I'm at work, my boss tells me to do something. And that first visceral feeling inside of me is you can't tell me what to do. What the hell is that from?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 14:11
Gosh, I I would want to explore, you know, childhood, parent, parent child dynamics, I would want to understand, you know, how did you? What is your sense of autonomy and agency? Is it a control? Do you feel like you don't want to be controlled, and by and not feel that it's triggering something that made maybe you were a victim of, you know, really harsh things as a child. And so that could be triggering as an adult to when someone says you're going to do this, whether you like it or not. And so maybe you're wanting to fight back, internally. And so you're saying to yourself, I'm not going to do that you can't tell me what to do. I'm going to do it this way. And so you're you're If he feels easier in the moment, to have that narrative play out and choose what you want to do, but knowing that there might be some other consequences, but I would imagine that that it's, it's a result of some kind of learned behavior as a way to cope as maybe, whatever happened as a child, that could be painful.

Scott Benner 15:23
I mean, it's just it is really, it's fascinating. It's and there are some people who are like pleasers, right? You can't ask them enough, they'd be happy to do it to throw themselves off a bridge if you told them. And, you know, like, and that's got to be the same. The same sort of thing in reverse, right? Because, you know, you just said, you just use the phrase, you're gonna do it, whether you want to or not, I have to tell you, I know, that's been said to me before, as as a child, like I know, and I thought, what a terrible thing to say to a kid. And then I thought, but I mean, I am a reasonable adult, I work hard. I take care of myself, I'm reasonably mentally stable. Like, do you don't mean like, it didn't work? Right. And I was like, a rebellious person. As a young child, I always assumed I was being rebellious. I guess, you know, like, I'm adopted. And I never felt, I don't know the best way to say this. I think like, just keeping it kind of clinical is the best way. I think my IQ is about 40 points higher than the people who, who adopted me. So nothing that they thought of is, like an answer to a question never made sense to me. And then I would say, Well, what about this? Or can we try that? And then that didn't make sense to them. And now we're stuck because I feel like I'm doing the right thing. And they feel like they're doing the right thing, but they're paying the bills. So it's, you're gonna do this, whether you want to or not. And, you know, I mean, to some short degree, I told you that story about my dad kind of like, kicking me to the ground one time, I think that was that, like, he was just, I think he was outmatched, and he didn't, he couldn't get me to stop saying what I was saying. So he was going to try to stop me that way. And all that did was make me more resilient and defiant. Where as some people would have, like, just gone the opposite direction with that, and I would understand both like just, you know, capitulating, I would have understood that too.

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Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 21:27
What is the motivation? What's the underlying emotion? That and thinking that's driving that behavior? Could it be I mean thinking about just the diabetes and you know, either preteens teens, or any any age really not wanting to follow you know, the instructions of your doctor or your parents to manage your diabetes. And then people will say, Oh, my child's rebelling and doesn't want to manage their their diabetes the way they need to. So often. Is that is that because of their age and stage and they're being teenagers and rebelling? Or is it more anger. And that's the way they feel like they can control a situation where they feel like they're out of control. And so they don't want to have to do to Pre-Bolus because they're angry at the diabetes, but then it looks like rebellion. But underneath that is sadness, anger, frustration, feeling out of control. Yeah. So understanding I think, at face value, we look at behavior and say, Oh, that kids or that adults, just being rebellious and being kind of a jerk, or being really selfish and immature. But really, there's always, typically something underneath that that's driving the behavior.

Scott Benner 22:43
So the path is, you know, a kid's first word is probably going to be no, right? Tell a kid not take off a seatbelt, take it off. It's my expectation is it's the way you handled as an adult, you have that child, that probably dictates how they experience those rebellious moments, at all stages of their life up into their adulthood, like so you have an opportunity to meet that with loving acceptance, you know what I mean? Like and saying, Hey, I realized you don't want to put that on. But we were because it's makes you safe in the car, we're, you know, or something like that. Or we exercise because of this, or we eat this way because of that. And so you can't, it's feels to me, like what you're telling me is that when it's when it's happening, you don't quell the rebellion. Like that's not the positive way out of this. It's just going to create stronger and stronger and stronger rebellions as you get older. Does that make sense?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 23:48
But yes, potentially. But I know that there are moments when you just you need to get from point A to point B. So using a seatbelt example, I just put the seatbelt on, right? Like you just Yeah, you don't always have time to say, Well, I understand you might be feeling frustrated, and you want to make your own choices as a young person. You know, it's interesting. Realistically, it's hard to check in with the emotion. But you can you can always do that later, too. I think there's we, you know, as parents, myself included, we often forget that we can do repair work at any time. So we can say, Okay, you're putting a seatbelt on right now, because it's the law and I'm telling you to and we're going to this thing, and then later have a conversation no matter what age to say, Tell me about that. Like that time when you didn't want to put your seatbelt on like helped me, you know, what, what, how can we help this process next time?

Scott Benner 24:37
Okay, if I'm gonna say this to you, but go deeper on that helped me more. So I'm 17 years old, and I'm doing something that just seems shady. But the truth is, is that I'm just probably rebelling and trying to find some control of my life that I don't have and that you think is homicide reversal. But around diabetes, I don't like that word. You think you can work out of that?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 25:01
i Yes, I would hope so be it will take it also matters. What is your current relationship like with your child? I mean, I think if you were, it was a highly conflictual, combative, non compassionate, non empathetic relationship, it'd be hard to start right in at that moment. But that can be built over time, even if you are starting as you're noticing your team become more rebellious and make choices that you feel like are risky and unsafe, which is also, again, part of their adolescence and what they're going to do naturally. So I think it's finding, in that moment, understanding and validating, I understand this is you wanting to, you know, explore and take risks and see what you're comfortable with? How can we find a middle ground? If it's the, the diabetes example? I think, going into the emotion when they are not wanting to change their do a site change, or use Pre-Bolus? Because that's a frequent topic. What So tell me, what is that about? Like, what is it? Is it fear? Is it sadness? Is it embarrassment, oftentimes, it's just, you know, the teen wanting to be like their, their peers, they don't want to have to pause, they don't want to have to think about it. So gosh, that must be really frustrating in those moments when you just want to keep going and keep going with your friends and keep eating and keep doing the next thing you don't want to do that your life to be interfered with in that moment. And so it looks like you're you're wanting to rebel, but no, you're you don't want to rebel. You want to take care of yourself. Yeah,

Scott Benner 26:45
I want to I'm gonna turn this all right on to diabetes in a minute. But I know I've said this, I think in the past to you, but when we were teenagers, we dated the Catholic school girls, because they were more fun. But they were more fun because they were being repressed more like that. Yes, we have talked about Yeah, right. Like, you know, you say the same thing to a girl in public school who had a lot of autonomy over her life, and she'd be like, Get away from me. And like you don't know, like, alright, okay. But then you go find somebody who's being restrained somehow. And they have a desire to just do whatever the opposite of that is. And, you know, what else did you see? Oh, but I noticed girls with long hair cut their hair short, when they graduated from high school, girls to short hair, or their hair long, people were smoking who you knew didn't like smoking. Like they weren't interested in it. They didn't like it, but there they were, they were like, I'm gonna smoke cigarettes. I'm gonna date boys. I'm not supposed to. I'm gonna like, seriously, like, always the worst boys, like, like, we joke about it growing up. And you guys will say to each other, like, just be meaner, and they'll want to go out with you. Like, and I know that's not real. But it feels real. Because they're because their parents are probably like, look, meet a nice guy or meet a nice girl. And they're like, Well, I'm gonna go do the opposite. I have like, purposefully counter programmed things I've said to my kids over the years, like, I'm like, if I say that, it's definitely gonna go the other way. So, you know, but but then it leads me into this thought this thing I think about all the time, when we were taking coal to college for the first time, we were in some like parental seminar. And somebody raises their hand and just says, like, I don't want my kid to have access to alcohol. And the woman at the front of the room was like, what? It's so and she's like, we are adults. We can't stop that. Which obviously was like the legal answer for the school about how they stay out of it's like, Hey, kids are 18 if they want to break the law, they can it's not up to you, we don't have to tell you, they're doing it etc. And then the conversation moved on, and she's like, but don't worry. She's like our research says it's only like 5050 And like, like half of the kids will never drink while they're here. And half of them will and because I'm not a drinker, I thought oh, okay, well my kids probably won't drink then. And that kind of worked out like hold doesn't enjoy drinking. I don't think that he didn't try but he was like I'm right. I don't like this. But he also didn't have a ton to rebel against. And so but summit, but the kids that I'm thinking of who looked like they were really had the screws turned on him by their parents, like you could kind of tell they were the ones that went the wild as to college. And so but what are you doing that for to prove it to yourself to prove it to someone else? Is it because the feeling is just that free feeling feels good? You don't I mean, I don't know that I think yes, this is what I wonder.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 29:52
I think it's so those may be the those types of people that you were just talking about there. I think they're trying to show like okay, I going into college and now it's my turn and my time to be independent, I can make all these decisions that my parents have said no to, and they've, you know, all I'm gonna go live my life. And really, they think that they're being independent. But they're, they're actually still dependent on there. They're trying to make their self deficient, their definition, their personal conduct, their value on doing the opposite of what other people want. So they're still, they're still dependent

Scott Benner 30:35
on they're just being controlled by a different God at that point. Right? Yeah. Yeah. So instead of your mommy telling you what to do. Now, drinking culture is telling you what to do. Or I'm dating a guy I don't even like because my mom doesn't like him or girl, Billy, etc. Like like that? That really does. Okay, that makes sense to me. So you're never alright. Are you telling me we're never really free? But there's ways to feel free?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 31:03
Oh, my gosh, by no, no, I think I think the, the, I think the mentality of someone going to college and saying, I'm gonna make all these choices that I wasn't allowed to make, or I was told I couldn't. And I would have all these consequences. If I did. Now I have the freedom to go do what I want to do. You're you're still relying or depending on doing the opposite of what other people want, which still is controlling you. But that's just like the next stage. So maybe the people who are going to college who aren't making those choices, as rebellion, but they're free, like let's say, you know, coal, like you were sharing you he didn't enter into college with this negative or kind of controlled parenting lifestyle that you had, right? So he felt like I can, I'll try it. But it's not I don't really care. Either way. I'll just see if I like it or not. Yeah, it wasn't because Dad told me not to, or he told me, whatever, go go for it. You probably modeled a very neutral position.

Scott Benner 32:15
If I told you the things I told my kid before I went to college, I said, I said, Listen, there's only a couple of things in this life you can't do. And he's like, okay, and I was like, they're like the, I said, they're the unfuckable things. And he goes, Why don't like the things that once you lock them up, you can. He was like, alright, and I said, don't kill somebody. Don't do it with a car, don't do it with your hands. He can't get out of that. As like, don't get a lady pregnant. You can't get out of that. And I was like, that's pretty much it. As in everything else, was talking and an attorney, I'm sure we could turn around. I was like, I was like those two things, like and I said, Look, forget those two things. You don't do something you can't, you can't apologize for or reverse or fix or anything like that. I'm like things that are are just, and I said it again, I'm like, they're unpredictable. And I didn't mean that as like, obviously, that seems like a bad pun, but I wasn't saying it to him like that at the time. Like I really was just like, there are just some things you can't you can't go back in time for. And I was like, those are the things you want to avoid. And I said, you know, be careful driving your car. And you know, don't. That's the kind of stuff man like there's I said, somebody at that school is going to like you guys are all going to come in and a couple of his kids aren't going to leave. Like they're, they're going to die there was like one or two statistically aren't making it out. And it's going to be some stupid story about them falling off a balcony or getting hit by a car crossing the street. I'm like, that's the thing. You don't want to get hit by the car. You don't want to be the car hitting them. I was like those things I said, because you'll never even if it's an accident, you're never going to forget that you took someone's life. Like I was like, that's the thing. You can't, you can't get back from like, you just can't get back or it's the same thing of like, I hate to say but like if you have a child die. I mean, go to therapy, do whatever you're going to do. I don't know how you're getting out of that. You know what I mean? Like ketamine, maybe? Or mushrooms. I don't know what you're doing. But I don't know how you're gonna forget that. You know what I mean? So like, just, you need to avoid those things that are going to do that. And he, you know, he took me seriously and, and he left I told my daughter the same thing. I was like, I'm like, You have a couple lectures. I'm like, You're a girl. I was like, you know, I hate to say it like that. It was like but you gotta be careful. You know, and inside of six months, she's like that I was walking down the street and like three homeless guys were really aggressively yelling at me. And I was like, okay, and I thought, Oh, wow, I never thought about that once when Cole went to school, because Coca Cola could have turned around and like, took care of him. So you know what I mean? And or, I don't know, even if he could know me, like, I have that feeling in my head of like, maybe you could fight his way out of a problem. You know, I'm not saying Arden wouldn't fight actually Arden told me later, she's like, I think me and my one roommate, she goes, I think we could take down one guy together. Just like we appear to have that kind of anger. And I was like, alright, but just that that whole feeling of, I don't know, but like, Did I run the risk of my son going like, Well, I'm gonna do the exact opposite of what that guy just said. I did, but I thought I had him set up well enough that that wouldn't be the response. But you know, if I was a bad parent for 18 years, and on his way out the door, I went, don't get anyone pregnant, he probably would have you mean, like, he probably would have been not careful with his dating choices. So how does all of this I think it's obvious that I brought this up, because I've interviewed about 1000 people. And I'm either talking to a parent whose child is rebelling, or a parent who is worried that they're going to do something that causes a rebellion, or I've talked to a teenager who says, you know, you know, some kids go off to college and drink their face off, I went off to college and stopped giving myself insulin. Like that was their collegiate rebellion, right. And then they either are lucky enough to see the error of their ways and go back, or some of them end up on here, 40 years old, talking about, I can't see out of my left eye and like, blah, blah, blah. And so it's a big concern around diabetes, because I think the picture I tried, and you helped me pain is that this is going to happen no matter what, it's a human condition. Yes. And how do we keep it from impacting, like our long term health? Like that, to me is the real question once your kid has diabetes, or even once you do, like, I mean, honestly, if I, if I just develop diabetes today, I've told you enough stories, like I might rebel against that, like, I don't think I would right now. But who knows where I would point that at? I'm probably still mad about all that stuff. So I mean, the other day in traffic, someone did try to hit me. And my daughter was like, hey, hold all that Fillion? Could you like, okay, she's like, we don't, you don't live there anymore. And I was like, this guy I know he's messing with. And then she's like, she's 50. And I was like, Yeah, I'm like, but not to get too far down. And I said to her, I'm like, you, you can't mess with people. You don't know what they've been through. Like, like, like, I always tell my kids, I'm like, You can't mess with somebody who's willing to go farther than you. Because once you're in it, like Erica, once it's happening, and you're standing on the side of the road, one of us gonna kill the other one. And like, and one of us willing to do it, and you don't know who they are. And they never look like that person in the moment. And I have to tell you, that somewhere deep down inside of me, I might be that guy. Like, we get out and we start going, I might not know when to stop at some point. And I don't look like that person. And so that's how I teach my kids. I'm like, you don't know who it's going to be who you're going to unleash something from, you know what I mean? So anyway, again, not about rebellion, but probably at the same time. Yes, about rebellion. Okay, so. So from your perspective, if a parent came to you and said, My concern here is that when this rebellious nature comes, they're going to turn it on their diabetes, what would you say to them?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 38:37
Yeah, or unless it's, if it already has started,

Scott Benner 38:40
right, either,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 38:41
I think yeah, I think if I'm speaking with the parent, again, I would go back to the What is your relationship like with your child, what are your How are you building trust? How are you building communicate connection, what is your communication style like understanding is it kind of mean you are the parents so it is going to be top down in terms of you know, boundary setting rules discipline, but in the parent child diabetes relationship, it has to be special and it has to be safe and sacred. And I think the rebel you know, the the fear of parent have a fear of your child rebelling, using diabetes. It's, it's always, most likely something that's under and what how do you feel I'd want I'd say okay, parent, check in with your child, ask them How are you feeling about diabetes? What is it? What How was your day like today with diabetes? What are your if you could write a letter, or if you could talk to diabetes, what would it be and oftentimes, the teens are going And to be angry at their parents about why are you telling me to Pre-Bolus? Really, you're angry, they're angry at the, like the fact that they even have to Sure Pre-Bolus. And I know it's obvious, but I think in the moment after day after day after day of trying to manage it, we forget, we forget that the chronic illness is going to always be connected to some sort of emotion, whether it's kind of flippant, like, Ah, it's fine. It's kind of on the backburner. We're doing fine to a site change day and your your child is dreading it all day long. And maybe they've had a bad day in their ears, they're irritable, they've gotten to a fight with their teacher or their friends, because really, in the back of their mind, like I have to change my pump. Today, I have changed my CGM. And we think as parents or caregivers, that's like such a small thing. It takes five minutes. Yeah. But it can be sitting there in the back of their mind for the until maybe you change it. And three days later, they're already anticipating the next thing. So these smaller things that obviously can add up. So sorry, going to back to what can you tell the parent who's concerned about the rebellion that is either creeping up or already happening would be to, you know, set the diabetes aside as much as you can connect emotionally with your child. And if you don't know how to do that, you know, get get help, and how to do that. And check in with them there. And if they are resistant to talking, that's, that's okay, too. And, you know, giving them the time and space sorry,

Scott Benner 41:38
no, no, the time and space thing is I keep I don't want to lose my thought, which is, I imagine people listening would find it odd to hear me say, but there are moments where if Arden's having like a higher blood sugar, I look at the whole day, and the whole week, and I say this isn't worth it right now. Like I'd rather her blood sugar be 180 for a while, then for her to see me come into her room or onto her face time being like, Hey, I'm here to remind you that you're not doing the thing you're supposed to be doing. Because that's what it feels like no matter how nicely you do it. That's where the texts are like, I know, I got it. Like, that's what that means. It just means I don't want to think about this right now. And it's unfair, because it's, you know, one of the few things that if you decide not to think about it, I mean, honestly, it's, I don't know if it's minute for minute, but you are taken back in seconds off your life with this decision you're making, but we all do that, right? Like, like somebody's gonna make a decision. It's Friday, somebody's gonna make a decision tonight to have two big scotches and go away in their head, and they're probably going to lose 10 minutes off the back end of their life. It's a trade they've decided to make, right? And so if we're talking about freedom, and that freedom is the reason the the idea that freedom could be taken, is the reason you rebel. I do. I believe that. And so if you start attaching that directly to the diabetes, it's going to go the wrong way. Like it just is like because then that's going to be their self soothing is going to be not taking care of themselves. Erica smile because I use the I think I use the therapy word just like this idiots actually listening. Right, so they're gonna make the rebellion become Oh, I see. So the rebellion becomes their self soothing, which sends them down the path which makes you push back harder, which only strengthens it's more and that's why you haven't talked to your mom nicely since you were 1910. That took me 45 minutes to take me 45 minutes. 39 I'm getting better. Okay. Okay, all right. That all makes sense.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 43:54
So the self I mean, I yeah, I think the self soothing or that's your, your coping, right? Like you feel like, in the moment, I don't want to take my insulin and jacked Bolus, if it's conscious sometimes, you know, we all forget sometimes. But if you're saying I'm out, I don't want to do this. I'm I'm don't want to face all of the emotion I have connected to this. So I'm going to cope in the moment by choosing to ignore it. By choosing not to do what I know I'm supposed to do, because it feels it feels it feels easier in the moment, it feels better, I feel more free. I feel like I have more control. And, and we're not always thinking about obviously the future implications just, it's hard to

Scott Benner 44:41
and then it'll become a pattern. And then you will really be in trouble. Like I saw one ad blood sugar for two hours isn't going to kill you. But if you make one at your norm because you've just like put up that wall and now there's no conversation to be had about it. And then eventually I hate to tell you, your kid's gonna get old and they're gonna leave and then wherever they They are is where they're going to be when they get out. And then now you're just blindly hoping that you know one of those things you've heard on the podcast so many times, like I met somebody and I wanted to be healthier, I decided I wanted to have a baby or something like that, unless one of those things happens, you'll just keep going. And the years and the months go by very, very quickly, you won't, you won't realize it, it will happen so fast. And your body, of course, on the physiological side, adjusts to the higher blood sugar, so you don't notice it anymore as much. And there's just nothing pushing you towards, towards helping yourself at that point. And you do feel like you're helping yourself. Because you mom, you can't tell me what to do. Oh, wow. Are you being serious? Are we just really early on? In humanity? Like, this can't be like the level of did only mean, like, we're not that far away from cavemen is what I'm saying.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 45:54
You mean? How evolved? Are we? Yeah,

Scott Benner 45:56
not that far. Right. Don't you think?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 46:04
Well, I think, Gosh, we've been given, you know, freedom to make choices, right? As since we were born, and to are we are we far off from us? How far off? Are we from just saying, you know, screw it, I'm gonna do what I want. I think when that pattern, when that becomes a pattern, then you obviously have, you've lost that space to make that show like, Oh, I'm making the choice to do what I want, right? Because it's just become habit. Whereas initially, you're, you're maybe consciously making more of a choice, I'd like I'm gonna do this other thing, because that's what I want to do. And then it just becomes habit. But when, when you can pause and look what's underneath that it's often even more emotion, such as shame, or blame. And so thinking about the teen, or, or the parent or the or the adult living with type one. You have maybe habitually just said, I, you know, I'm gonna figure this out tomorrow, or I just keep forgetting. You feel don't feel great underneath that.

Scott Benner 47:21
Yeah, I mean, this might seem like a right turn to people. But we're 400 years away from the beginning of like, the American frontier period, right? Where you would have like, traded your daughter for a couple of goats at some point, right? I'm not kidding. Like, that's a couple of 100 years ago, where are we still in the early 1900s, like late 1800s, early 1900s, you could just have a dispute with somebody and just shoot them. And everybody would just go well, yeah, he deserved it. And that was like the end of it. Like, so. We're not that far removed from that. And now we're trying to have all these big thoughts. And some of us I mean, I mean, honestly, I feel like I'm, I'm a fairly common sense person, I have a reasonable level of intelligence. And we just spent 39 minutes talking about something and my brain went, Oh, yeah, I see it now. But I don't know that that means that 10 minutes from now, I can actually do this in my life. Like on the fly while I'm living, it's not just going to happen, right? Like, I'm gonna make this small, incremental step that I hopefully passed on to my kid, he's gonna make a small incremental step that he'll pass on to his kid. And 400 years from now, we won't be shooting each other in the streets anymore. Like, you know, commonplace. And so that's what I'm saying. Like, it's our how this is gonna sound so like crunchy, I'm sorry, like, the length of our time commensurate to the length of history. Like, it's just, we're just, we really are a blip. And we're just moving things slowly, like very slowly. But in this moment in time, we're all stuck with emotions and thoughts and ideas that we about understand about 25%. And yet we're trying everyone's trying to do the right thing. But we're not like we're it almost feels like we're still going against our wiring. Does that make sense?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 49:11
Like going against our wiring in terms of making the best decision in

Scott Benner 49:15
terms of your America, let me just be honest. I pulled out of the Walgreens parking lot the other day. And we were making a right turn into a red light. Like none of us were going anywhere. And a car was coming from my left. I did not cut him off. I didn't pull out quickly. He had plenty of time. He was speeding towards the red light. Then when I pulled out in front of him, he sped up. It was a it was a few like, right, right. And then the part of me that grew up outside of Philadelphia with his dad yelling at him was like, Yo, what are you doing? And like now I'm looking at him in my rearview mirror. Like if I had I have to get out the car and kill you. I guess this is where my life ends. Like suddenly this has become like important. And I know it's not right. I know it's not important. I'm not really mad. But there's something that lights up inside of me. So he comes Cook, like, crashing up to the rear of my car very close. And I am now yelling at him through my rear view mirror. And it's not like, Hey, what are you doing? It's like, I will kill you. And like, like, and like and my daughter is now with me. I am not that person. Generally speaking, she's got her hand on my hand on hand. She's like, Hey, it's okay. It felt like I was the Hulk. And she was Scarlett Johansson. And she was like, she was like, It's okay big guy. Like, like, and I'm like, I'm like, No, I'm sorry, I have to leave you and your brother and your mom, because I have to go kill this guy in the street now for this affront, right. And obviously, I get past that pretty quickly. And I'm like, Alright, I'm okay. Thank you. And we keep we keep moving up. And he is now gesturing to us. And it was not flattering gestures. He wasn't saying I love you with like the handbag or anything like that. And she's like, just ignore him. And I was I just ignored him, I was fine. She said, actually just make a left here. Like, let's let him go. And I'll go home. And I'm like, and we'll go home a different way. And I was like, you know, great idea. I get over into the left lane. I'm okay, I'm done. He drives by gives us the finger, I pull right back out behind him. And my, my daughter's like, what are we doing now. And I was like, I'm like, we're just going to intimidate him at this red light for a little bit. So he has to wonder if we're gonna get out of the car and hit him with a bat. So he has to live in that space for two minutes before the light turns green. And we go are several ways. I'm gonna, I'm gonna and and she goes, that's really what you're doing. And I'm like, yeah. And then I was like, oh my god, that is really what I'm doing. Like, I'm sitting behind him hoping that he is worried that I'm going to hurt him. And then the light turned green, I made a left and he went straight. And it was over. And I thought, yeah, like 150 years ago, I definitely would have shot you in the street. 100% I would have shot him if it was at 95. So you sign your wagon? Yeah. Oh, for just like, I don't know, for certain I don't feel like I can take a life. But I put myself back in 150 years, I put myself in different situations. And I think maybe, you know, like, so we're not that far away from all this. And then we're having these big conversations. And it's no wonder that everybody feels like, Oh, I'm anxious. And I don't know what to do about it. Or like, like, we're just not, we're not there yet. Like, I don't know, one other way to put that, like, we got more like, if this was a crock pot, like we got like eight more hours, you know what I mean?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 52:42
So that's good.

Scott Benner 52:46
Are our potatoes are not soft yet, Erica. Anyway, so my point around all that is, is that while people are trying to live that a better life in this time period, and they feel like they're being met with so many, you know, blockades and roadblocks that they that their brains don't feel capable of getting around. While that's happening to everyone. And some of us are trying to live with children who have type one or other, you know, important issues to be dealt with, or our type on ourselves. And we are trying to make better decisions. When you know, our better angels are telling us one thing and the way our brain works is like, like flick pool monkey, basically, you know, like it's

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 53:29
Yeah, and I think sometimes the rebellion even though even actively while you're doing it, like just even if you're a car example, you're doing it then maybe there's a part of you like, why am I like you, you kind of looked sounded like you kind of went in and out of this. Like, yeah, that's what I'm doing. Why am I doing this? This is crazy. But then I'm still but I still want to do it.

Scott Benner 53:51
Yeah. Not a desire of mine. Yeah. And I grew up like that. Like, yeah, I grew up like I remember once I was on a back street with my father. I was maybe 15 or 16. He was driving. And no, I was learning to drive. I was 16. I was driving his car. And he was next to me. And we were driving home on a back street. And a guy flew up on us and went right around us and took off. And I had not been driving very long. And my dad demanded that I catch that man's car. He was like, catch him. And I was like, what? And he's like, catch him get in front of him and stop him. And I did that. And then my dad got out of the car, walked over to his car, got him to roll his window down a little bit, leaned in, spoke to him for a minute, came back, got in the car and said he'll never do that again. And I know my dad felt like he was policing the neighborhood he lived in. I know he felt like that and to this day. I believe in that. Like if someone doesn't do it who's going to like that idea? Still stuck there. it stuck with me. And meanwhile, everything about the scenario was very scary. And not something I wanted to do it in any way, shape or form. And yesterday, the same thing, like I know, it's the same exact thing. I didn't think of it till just now when we were talking. But by the way, this is why everyone should probably go to therapy. But but I didn't realize that until we were talking about like, that person had done something wrong. And it's my feeling that it's almost my job to make sure that they don't do it again, which almost doesn't make you know what oddly makes a lot of sense and no sense all at the same time. Right. Right. So

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 55:35
you want to make sure yeah, it's just your anger and rage is justified because you're trying to right, the wrong or, you know, reflect to him how he made a mistake. Yeah. And meanwhile,

Scott Benner 55:47
I've done things in traffic as an example, where I'm like, oh, like, that was a mistake. I turned somewhere I shouldn't have or something like that. I immediately am like, Oh, I'm so sorry. Like, I'm almost like, I was in a car going, Oh, my God, it's my fault. I'm sorry. Like it does, obviously me, you know, like, but on that other end of it, like he was speeding towards a bunch of people stopping at a red light. I got in front of him. And it lit something up in him. He did not want to be behind someone else. And then it suddenly felt personal after that. Yeah. When obviously it's not. Anyway, fascinating. Was I rebelling against something? I don't know. To think about that little

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 56:26
more rebelling against maybe what you weren't, you knew what was right and wrong. I don't know. I do have a stroke. It felt right to you at the moment. But

Scott Benner 56:35
yeah, but I mean, I joked a little earlier. But like there is that feeling like that in the pursuit of what's right. It's okay, if I have to die in the street for it, which is silly. You know what I mean? And the only thing that stops me like Arden told me later she goes, now that I'm in the south, I know. I'm supposed to tell you all that she's in Chicago, but she's going this college in the South. She goes, when I first got down there, I thought, Oh my God, these people really don't drive well. And it was in. She's like, it was upsetting. And she goes, but I've let it all go. And I said why she goes, I don't think they know. And she was be I think they all have a gun. And I was I was like, okay, she goes, so you know, I don't want to get shot. So I don't care. And I was like, wow, that's a good argument for everybody having a hand. Conquer write down. She's like, I don't care what you do over there. Anyway, Erica, this is a big problem, right? For people with diabetes and their kids.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 57:37
It is a challenge for sure. And I think understanding part of it is normal, no matter how fabulous and connected. You are with your teen or your teen is with you. Part of it's going to be natural and normal. And to allow those moments to happen. As much I know, it is so challenging. But then also, trying to find those inroads in those moments that it is it is more than the behavior that you're seeing on the outside which you are, which looks like rebellion. And finding those moments and inroads to sit and talk and reflect and connect Anymote. And however it might, it might be 30 seconds. I think also, we have these expectations. Sometimes we're gonna sit and have this long, you know, dialogue, maybe it's a quick walk, it's a quick drive. But validating your teen and their emotions around diabetes will go very far. And I know a lot of you guys do that. And it's still not enough and it is challenging. But stick to keep at it.

Scott Benner 58:47
I appreciate you doing this this topics been on my list for a while because I think I just wanted to say to people don't let your monkey brains ruin your health. If you can help it. That's pretty much pretty much my mess.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 58:58
You got it in Yeah.

Scott Benner 59:00
Okay. All right. Thank you so much.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 59:02
You're welcome.

Scott Benner 59:11
Eric is delightful, and she resides at Erica forsythe.com Omni pod is a sponsor of the podcast and specifically of this episode, thank them by going to Omni pod.com forward slash juice box to get started today to learn more to get our free trial, where to check your coverage and of course us med.com forward slash juicebox get your free benefits check. Don't like the internet. Use the phone 888-721-1514 Get your supplies the same way Arden does from us MIT. I want to thank you so much for listening. I'll be back very soon with another episode of The Juicebox Podcast.