#720 Magical Thinking

July 19, 2022Scott Benner

Erika is a licensed marriage and family therapist who herself has had Type 1 diabetes for over 30 years and who specializes in working with people with diabetes and their families and caregivers—from those newly diagnosed to those experiencing it for decades. She and Scott discuss Magical Thinking, Cognitive Dissonance and the Other Choice Myth.

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DISCLAIMER: This text is the output of AI based transcribing from an audio recording. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors and should not be treated as an authoritative record. Nothing that you read here constitutes advice medical or otherwise. Always consult with a healthcare professional before making changes to a healthcare plan.

Scott Benner 0:00
Hello friends and welcome to episode 720 of the Juicebox Podcast

Erica Forsythe is back today, you know Erica, she is the licensed marriage and family therapist who also has type one diabetes. Today Eric and I are going to be discussing a few ideas ranging from I don't want to tell you, I tell you, you're gonna think they're boring and you're not going to listen, but it's a great, I'll tell you anyway, I trust you, you'll listen. We're gonna go over magical thinking, cognitive dissonance, and choice myth. There are ways that your brain works that you might not be aware of, and it impacts how you think about things like diabetes or anything really. While you're listening. Please remember that nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise, always consult a physician before making any changes to your healthcare plan, or becoming bold with insulin. If you have type one diabetes, and you're a US resident, or are the caregiver of someone with type one, I would like to ask you to go to T one day exchange.org Ford slash juice box, join the registry, fill out the survey. When you're done, you will benefit people living with type one diabetes and support the Juicebox Podcast p one D exchange.org. Forward slash juice box. Today's episode of The Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by us med. Go now to us med.com Ford slash juice box or call 888-721-1514 When you do that, you'll be getting a free benefits check to see if you can get started with us med this show is sponsored today by the glucagon that my daughter carries. G voc hypo Penn. Find out more at G voc glucagon.com. Forward slash juicebox. If you're in California and in search of a therapist, check out Erica forsyth.com

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 2:10
Good morning I'm spending to hear your voice and talk and connect.

Scott Benner 2:14
Yeah, I'm happy to hear from you again. And and I'm happy you're getting your needs taken care of too.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 2:19
I you know, it was such a hard you know, it's I realize it's never never a good time to have knee surgery. And it's funny that you thinking about you know, the another choice myth that you had mentioned, I'm like, Oh my gosh, I've been living in that zone of well, I know everything now but should I push it off to winter break when there's not as much going on? And you know, like, I'm gonna miss this, this and this if I do it now like the conference, but I don't know what I'm gonna miss and then winter break, you know, so

Scott Benner 2:50
there's no good time.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 2:53
I know. I knew you just had your you had a meniscus

Scott Benner 2:56
repair. Yes. So and we're recording to see, you know, that's okay. But yes, so I just woke up one day, and it felt like someone hit me on the inside of my knee with a hammer. And I was like, and my knees had been like creaky and clicky for years. So I tried for a month to kind of rehab it on my own. And I was like, this is going nowhere. I wore a brace. And then the brace started to take the pain away. And I was like, oh, there's some instability in there somewhere. I went to my guy who fixed my shoulder. And he just, it's funny. They, they know what they're doing. He's like, grabs, it moves around a little bit. He goes, Yeah, he goes, you got a meniscus tear. Is that what you learned in college? That's amazing. You know, because it took him like four, four seconds, and I guess we'll have to verify it with an MRI. So I went and did the MRI. And he's like, yeah, it definitely is. Don't worry. He's like, we're just gonna poke two holes. He goes, I'll be in another 2025 minutes. I'm gonna clean it up for you. It's gonna be great. And he's like, You're too old to fix it. I was like, well, that doesn't sound exciting. What do you mean, you can't fix it? And he goes, Yeah, we can't fix it. We're just cleaning it up. And he goes, but I don't see any arthritis. He's like, this is great. Real super easy. So I go in, I get the Jackson juice. I mean, gone out. And next thing I know, he's standing over me. When grade Scott. There was some arthritis in there. We'll talk about the appointment tomorrow. And then he just walks away. And I'm like, wait, what? Yeah, guy in the office three weeks ago said that there was not going to be a problem like this. So it turns out the interior part of my knee is just was like arthritis, and the tear in the meniscus, which was worse than he thought it was, by the way. And then the he goes because the outside of your knees like looks like you're 20 years old. It's like I'm not covered by anything you're saying. You know, and then they after the surgery says so you're probably gonna need a knee replacement 510 years. And then I go through the rehab and everything and I say Do you really think I'm gonna need a replacement in five or 10 years and he goes, maybe not. And I'm like, What do you kind of just say the First thing that comes to your mind, like, you know, like, she goes out, there's no way to know. And I was like, six weeks ago, you were like, definitely five to 10 years. And now there's no way to know. And he said, he pulls up his pant leg and he's got ice on his knee. He goes, I just got mine done yesterday. Like,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 5:16
oh, my gosh,

Scott Benner 5:17
I'm like, did your need and he was my partner. And I was like, should I have gone to him? He's the guy you went to, you know? Anyway, it just, but it was to be perfectly honest. I mean, the rehab from it took, I was on my feet in a couple of days, no problem. And I don't think I use the crutch for more than, like, 36 hours, and even that I was kind of pretending to use it. The rehab was easy, and it feels 1,000,000% Better now. So I don't know how it's gonna last year, obviously, in a different situation, though.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 5:48
Yes, yes, I'm at full knee replacement. But, and that's a whole long story, too. But I'm glad to hear that your rehab has. Truly Yeah. And I think they can't predict you know it because they don't know how you wear and tear you put on your knee. Really?

Scott Benner 6:04
Well. I was gonna say you were an athlete in college, right?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 6:08
I played volleyball for 20 plus years, I did not have any known injuries from playing volleyball, but then got into hot yoga and had a meniscus tear about 10 to 11 years ago.

Scott Benner 6:24
Interesting. That's interesting. Okay, so anyway, so we were looking for something to talk about today. And because of your injury, and we're going to be you know, there's gonna be a little gap in time between I see you I didn't want to start on the series that we're thinking about. Yeah. Because there would have been weird to start it and stop it and start it again. Yes. So I sent you some ideas that I find interesting that I don't particularly understand as much as I'd like to. You okay, talking about this stuff?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 6:51
I am? I am. Yes, they're Yeah, they can be kind of challenging concepts to fully understand. But I think they're really important to know and talk about, let's give

Scott Benner 6:59
it a shot. Do you have any particular order you care that these happened in or No,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 7:03
no, I think the order that you wrote down, or however, whatever comes to mind first.

Scott Benner 7:07
Okay. All right. So I started with the idea of Magical Thinking. Yes. Right. And it's funny when I, when I think about it, I just think it's something that people have an idea about, or thought about, etc, then they just think there's some sort of, like, causal effect between how they think, and what happens. Is that a, is that basically, right?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 7:34
Yes, yes. And I think it could, there are varying levels and degrees of house like either serious or connected, you are two that that causal link. And I think it's often helpful to talk to explain it with examples. But I think that definition is good that your your beliefs, your ideas, your actions, your internal world can somehow influence or affect the events of your environment, or the the, your material world,

Scott Benner 8:06
right, so that they use the term magical thinking, but it's also it's kind of superstition to.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 8:13
Yeah, yeah.

Scott Benner 8:14
So what are examples you have that that could paint a picture for people,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 8:19
I think one of the easiest that we often believe in childhood or you know, making a wish, when you blow out your birthday candles, that that might come true, or throwing coins into a fountain, that and making a wish, whereas you throw the coin, a fountain, those are maybe like positive hopeful ones, there could be either negative superstitions, like stepping on a crack or having a black cat cross your path or walking under a ladder, those might, then you might believe that that's going to cause bad luck to happen. Those are kind of childhood superstitions, or types of Magical Thinking, that are pretty common and normal and playful and fun. And sometimes those can carry on in to adulthood. And I think, at some point, it can become problematic, which we can get into. If you're noticing that it's really impairing your functioning and your mental outlook on life,

Scott Benner 9:24
I'm gonna give you an example. Okay, we're at what ended up being my son's last game of his senior season of college baseball. Games not going well. They're going to lose. And I watched adults, people who have, by my estimation, good jobs, who own homes, who I've seen make rational decisions about things over and over again, who I've had long conversations with and who seem very reasonable. I started watching them do the craziest stuff from talking to them. selves under their breath when their kids were hitting to changing their seating position to watch people move their phones from pocket to pocket, and I thought, oh my god, everyone's crazy.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 10:15
Oh, yeah, we're wearing the same jersey or the same hat. Oh, are the same position?

Scott Benner 10:21
Yeah. Alright, go where did this person go? They moved to left field because the last time they stood in left field, their kid got a triple. I watched, I watched a person like, not striking themselves hard, but like, softly pounding on the side of their head while their kid was hitting. I was like, what is happening right now talking to themselves. Here's why they lost the game, in case any of them are listening. They started the wrong pitcher.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 10:48
Not because he didn't wear the same shirt. Yeah, I don't

Scott Benner 10:50
want to give the kid up. But it is the wrong choice. That's why they lost the game. They started the wrong pitcher that was that. But my goodness, people shifting around in their seats. It was just it was fascinating. They all thought that they were about to impact the luck that was happening on the field when which Meantime, baseball is not luck. It's it's kind of like it's a it's controlled chaos. It's randomness that once in a while works in your favor. And you know, and and everyone tricks themselves into believing that they figured out the thing to do so the randomness breaks for them more frequently. And and my best example, that's still wrapped around baseball is how people talk about it. If you win a game, you know, I don't know if you win a game five nothing. You go into the dugout, you say, oh my god, we hit great today. But if you lose the game five, nothing. You don't say, Oh, we hit terribly today. You say wow, they really pitched great today. It's interesting. Right? Right, like you didn't when no one wants to take credit for losing, they only want to take credit for winning.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 11:55
Yeah, and I think you're trying to have maybe either some semblance of control. in it. Yeah, as you said he kind of contract controlled chaos environment. And, or it's just a simple, you know, hope belief system that you're wanting to do anything you can and believe in anything that you can to hopefully have a positive outcome on a situation that you don't have control over as a parent.

Scott Benner 12:24
Is that is that magical thinking if I get up and move to left field? Or is it also a tiny bit of confirmation bias? Like, well, I did this last time in this word, and then let the magical thinking take the thought to the next step. Is that possible? I

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 12:40
think it's reinforcing like every time you do, I think going back to like, every time you throw a coin in the fountain and you make a wish and that wish comes true. That's reinforcing that bias or that belief that oh, this actually works for me, when maybe, you know, it doesn't have any bearing on that outcome or that wish that you made. That, yeah, go ahead.

Scott Benner 13:04
It's fast. It's fascinating. And you you said earlier, like, it's not really very harmful. Like, I don't care if people go stand in a different place the baseball, meaningless to me. But can that get to the point where it's at an OCD level?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 13:17
Yeah, I think, you know, as you're thinking about magical thinking, and superstition, and that's all fun and games, so to speak, as a child and even into adulthood, with the sport theme that we're talking about, I think, and even it can be positive. When you're thinking about, you know, the power of positive thinking, if you have, you'll read and learn about the power of positive thinking for people who are diagnosed with cancer. And while there's actually no direct evidence or research, that the positive thinking has a direct causal link to reducing the cancer or you know, prolonging your life, it does have a positive effect on your management of stress and and that they can they have said, helps you heal better and respond to treatment, all that. So that can be really positive if your belief system is if I think this way, and I manifest this thing in this way, then it's going to happen. I think, if you're thinking about it in the opposite direction of oh my gosh, I thought badly, I had a bad thought about a family member or a friend. And then something bad happened to that family member or a friend then you're placing blame on yourself because you had that thought. I think that's where you there's a slippery slope getting into maybe negative pattern negative thinking patterns. Or you might be controlling you think you're controlling outcomes when you're actually not. And eventually, yes, it can become it can develop into maybe OCD behaviors or with more severe anxiety, where if you think about you're trying to control outcomes in life If I worry about this, anticipate this bad thing happening, then maybe it won't happen. Or maybe I won't feel as bad when it happens. And that, that can become really problematic.

Scott Benner 15:09
Yeah, so interesting, because then if you if you use this kind of way of thought, in a, in a bubble, like you wouldn't, it's just about you, like, I'll be positive about this. And, you know, sure, the positivity is probably not really going to affect my, my knee healing faster. But it will make take my stress away. And if I'm not stressed about it, that actually will help my knee heal faster. So there's no no harm and just seeing the high side and, and, you know, hoping for the best and that kind of stuff. It's when you're, when you're thinking, if I do this thing, then a different human being on the planet is going to have a different outcome. That's that I mean, to me, that's such a strange idea. Like, I don't understand superstition at all. And then by by understand, I mean, like, I've never had a superstitious thought that lingered with me. And it's, um, and when I see other people have them, it's fascinating to me, it really is like, there, there are actual things you could do in some moments to help things like real things, and instead, you're busy. And you know, I'm bringing all this up, because because I think it relates to diabetes, and what ends up happening to people's if you have these feelings already, and then you or your kid gets diabetes, you could get stuck in a situation where you're now making poor decisions when there are better decisions to be made. And, you know, Canada stuck. Yeah. And then you can take it all the way out to the end. You know, the the biggest thing somebody sent me an article the other day, gosh, I think it was from Australia or New Zealand, whereas another family's been arrested because their kid got type one diabetes, and they said they were going to let God take care of it. And you know, obviously without insulin, the kid died. Yeah, right. And so that that is the other end of it. It's like we're not really talking about it because I don't listen to people's religious beliefs are their own and I think they're wonderful and I have literally no trouble in the world with anybody's religious beliefs. But when your religious beliefs get in the way of you given someone insulin, then you know the outcomes are pretty predictable. I actually think that's what killed Prince.

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Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 20:14
Yeah, I don't know. I can't speak to that for certain. Okay,

Scott Benner 20:17
so let me let me listen, I'll tell the story. And if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. But okay. My ex, my understanding was that Prince's religion precluded him from having his body cut open. And so he instead medicated his pain. And, you know, the drugs got him one day. So, the idea was, he could have had a surgery that would have relieved his pain, he wouldn't have had to take all these pain pills. And it might have changed the course of his life. But because of his his belief, which, you know, again, if it wasn't going to put him in the situation he was in hurts no one, it not even him. But I don't know, I just, you know, at some point, there's just there are just so many times I see online, my kids blood sugar's really high, and someone will come in and say, I'm going to pray for you. And I think that's wonderful. Like, I think that's lovely. I mean, these are two disconnected people who don't know each other, and one of them saying, Look, I can't do anything for you, but I will pray for you. That's terrific. My worry is always that on the other side, somebody might be thinking, Oh, well, this person's prayer will take care of this when you need to Bolus or something. Right. Right. Right. Yeah. Anyway, what happens when you see somebody who has has had these thoughts? Do you try to help them with them? How would you go about it?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 21:37
I think most often, when someone is in my office, they've they've kind of maybe arrived at the place of their anxious thinking, has the magical thinking has developed into anxious thinking in terms of I am so nervous about the either the future or something bad happening, whether in the diabetes world, I'm so worried about, you know, having complications or having a low. And in there, yes, there are things that you can do to prevent, to, to protect, prevent all those things. But there are also if the anxiety is so consuming, where that's all you're thinking about all the time. Right? So you're having difficulty sleeping, you're having difficulty staying in relationship with with friends or family. Because that, that anxiety is, well, if I just I worry about it and think about it all day long, maybe that'll prevent that bad thing from happening. And so that's when we would look at, you know, what are? What are the triggers? What are some ways to kind of reduce the frequency of those of those thoughts, and then practicing some coping strategies to reduce that. But I think that that's where I would work with somebody, and when that the prevalence and the persistency of that anxious thinking, and that it really is kind of magical thinking kind of blown up, right? If I just if I worry about it and think about it all day long, it's not going to happen, or it's going to reduce the pain of when that bad thing does happen.

Scott Benner 23:21
Okay, yeah, yeah, it's, um, I know a person, Eric, I know a person who lays the groundwork for something to go wrong months in advance, it just, it is a part of their personality. It's fascinating, they lower the bar. So far, that any thing that happens, looks like success. And then that's how they keep themselves, you know, in the situation they're in, but they, I don't I, the one thing I can't tell you is if it's conscious or not, but you know, the, if I don't know if the if a holidays coming up six months from now, they'll start telling you why they'll probably be busy, or why they can't get there or why it's going to go wrong, or why they won't be able to afford a gift. Or they just they they lay out this this runway of reasons. So that in the moment when the failure happens, which I guess is how they're saying it that no one's mad at them. Maybe you just made me think about it differently. Like I always thought they were lowering expectations, but maybe they're trying to protect themselves.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 24:29
Yeah, I think it's a protective mechanism. Because either either you're thinking if I worry about it, this this possible negative outcome, then it'll protect me when it happens. Because I've always I already worried about it so much. So when it does happen, it's not going to feel as painful which is that's a lie, right? That's a cognitive distortion. That you're that the anxiety is telling you. That if you worry about it, either it won't happen or you won't feel as much pain when it does happen.

Scott Benner 25:00
Okay, so then the next thing on my list was cognitive dissonance. Yes. And that is what you were just referring to correct? Well,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 25:09
cognitive distortions are a bunch of different kinds of lies that and belief systems that can develop cognitive dissonance. And these are like big words, is actually is the feeling that the kind of the stress or emotional or mental discomfort that you experience when you're too different either belief system systems or behaviors have are in conflict. Okay. And I think, too, I think going back to the examples might be the most helpful to please explain what cognitive cognitive dissonance is, it's important to know that that isn't, it isn't the aftermath, it's the it's the feeling the mental discomfort when two conflicting beliefs or values or attitudes occur. And so one example is, I think the easiest example, and the most kind of challenging is smoking, somebody likes to smoke. And either however they've gotten there, they like to, they like to smoke cigarettes. But the they know that the smoking can is harmful to their body and cause cancer. So you're you you're either addicted, or you have the pattern you'd like to smoke, however often or not, but then you're so that that's your action, but then the your belief is, oh, but I know this is causing my heart harm to my body. So then you're in that space of cognitive dissonance. Okay, I think same thing with like, you could apply it to diabetes. Sorry, go ahead, where you're gonna know, I'm

Scott Benner 26:49
just I'm trying to make sure I'm following along. So okay, in like a small way. I've heard people say, like, like they're using a Weight Watchers app, for example. And they, they actually, I mean, you're the only one that's aware of what the app says, You're the only one that was aware of what you've eaten, and they lie to the app. So that's an example of this, right?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 27:14
Yes, be? Well, that is your that is the, you're changing your action, to reduce the cognitive dissonance that you're experiencing. So they, they ate five cookies. But and but they're on a diet, they're trying to be on a diet, they ate five cookies. So now they're in cognitive dissonance. They're feeling emotionally discomfort, emotional discomfort. And so to relieve that dissonance, they're going to lie to the app to reduce some of that discomfort.

Scott Benner 27:48
That's interesting. So I'm gonna give you an example from my life and tell me if this is right. Or if I'm trying to put a square peg in a round hole. So I know a person who chose to vote in a certain direction, in a in a federal election, and then they got their candidate, and then the candidate did something that they didn't want to happen. And so initially, they spent a lot of time on social media saying, you know, you have to vote for this person, you have to vote for this person, then, you know, that happened, and they were all happy. And then the thing happened, this law got put into place. And then they come out and say, I can't believe this happened. How can we let this happen? And I looked at it, I thought, This is what you voted for, like, this is the thing you like this was going to happen if you voted, right. And I always thought, as I looked at it, I have to admit, my, my, my hot take was they didn't understand the impact of their vote. But now you're making me think that you knew this was gonna happen. And now this is them protecting themselves like I needed to vote for this person because of, I don't know, any number of reasons that I agreed with. But there were a couple of things I didn't agree with. And now that one of those things came true. I need to distance myself from that somehow. Is

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 29:13
that Yes, yeah. Or blaming. So that's kind of the that is the result of the dissonance they might have experienced,

Scott Benner 29:20
okay, so they made that just yet led to this thing. And now they need to let the world know they're not okay with this part.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 29:29
Yeah, I mean, that's, that is. Yeah, it's so it is a complicated notion. I think, in that moment, they're, maybe they're feeling guilt or regret about voting for that person. Because now and so that that guilt or regret about voting for that person or feeling embarrassed. That's the dissonance. Yeah. And then they're gonna either you're gonna change your belief or change your behavior to reduce that dissonance right

Scott Benner 29:58
and In this example, I'm obviously trying not to make it a partisan idea. But in this example, this is a thing you can all trust me, that was very obviously attached to the candidate. It's not like, okay, it's not like the 17 thing down on their list, and they're like, I can't believe they made all the parks close at 10 o'clock. Like, I didn't know that was gonna happen when I voted for them. Like this was a thing, that that four year olds were going to know what's gonna happen if this person, you know, gotten to power. So you don't I mean, like, I always just assumed like, I don't know, it's funny, I always just assumed stupidity. But now I'm thinking, this is the same thing I was talking about with the other person who lays the groundwork for protecting themselves from feeling badly placed is super interesting.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 30:43
Yeah, I think most often we're responding, whether we're blaming ourselves or blaming others, or trying to change or lie to ourselves or lie to others, your your can usually acting out of that discomfort within yourself, because of the your, the action that you had is, is in conflict with your belief system. And then you have to reduce that discomfort. Okay. And then, and then you see kind of different. So if we're going back to the the smoking example, to reduce that dissonance that they're feeling every time they have a cigarette, even though they enjoy it, but they know it's bad for their body, then to reduce the dissonance, they're going to say to themselves, if they're going to change their belief, or say, well, it's I don't I only smoke once every other day. And that's, I'm, I'm not gonna have any damage to myself. Or you change the behavior, because the dissonance has become so severe and you stop smoking.

Scott Benner 31:39
Yeah. Do you think generally speaking, this is one of these questions, you're not gonna like, I heard you do it when I was thinking. Do you think generally speaking, if we look at the masses, like taking everybody into account that statistically, most people aren't going to change? Right? So it because you have to recognize it, it has to intellectually make sense to us to emotionally make sense, you have to search out help or make some kind of like, tough decision for yourself. So So generally speaking, I mean, listen, I'll relate it back to the podcast, I think if you listen to the podcast, your agency is easily in the sixes, maybe in the fives if you try harder. So by that, you know, let's say that's true, then all everyone living with insulin has to do is listen to this podcast, and they're going to be okay, except we know that's not going to happen. And so these people who are involved in these kinds of thoughts, they're torturing themselves. Like, is there not a humane argument to be made for just lean into it smoke all the cigarettes you want and die earlier, but that might be better than torturing yourself and living 10 more years, that like, because at least they're not going to be, you know, mentally tortured by this thing that they know, they're not supposed to be, you know, quote, unquote, supposed to be doing? Like, I don't know, like it is what I'm saying is live fast die young, leave a good looking corpse is that like,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 33:04
I think eventually, you will ultimately have to make that decision to say, you know, forget it, I'm, I'm going to live my life. I like to smoke, and I'm not going to keep this battle up. Every time I have a cigarette, right? I think ultimately, you will make that decision, and to say, Oh, I'm fine. It's not gonna happen to me, or I'm not gonna think about it, I'm fine. I think yeah,

Scott Benner 33:29
good even to take it out of the health room. I see people do it with homes, they have a home and they say, Look, I'm going to spend the extra money I have on living, and this house is going to fall apart around me. And when it's over, it's not going to be worth anything to me, I'm not gonna be able to sell it make a bunch of money, but I don't care. I'm gonna put my I'm gonna put my money where I want it to be. And, and they're okay with it. And they're the kind of people who that if you speak to them, there's no, they're not embarrassed. They don't care that their house is the one on the street that looks like it's, you know, the monsters live there. They really they don't, they don't care. They're good ones that decision they've made. And I'm wondering, I want I'm wondering what the, what the trade off is between not torturing yourself and just being okay with it. And, you know, sure, you might lose on the back end. But in the moment, it might be much more pleasant for you now, not to say that, by the way, there's a balance, that guy could spend some of his money on the house and some of his money on him. Or you could you know, try harder not to do the thing that you don't want to do. But But I guess in the as I'm listening to it, the sad part of this is the torture part, the part where people are, are doing that to themselves. And I guess if you could, if you could impact one aspect of this whole thing, that would be step one in my mind. Do you

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 34:51
is making that choice of how you're going to live? Yeah, yeah.

Scott Benner 34:55
So that so that everything you do isn't painful.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 35:00
Yes, and I think that diamond, that would be the most ideal, I think we're I know we're talking about like, bigger issues. But this can happen, you know, on a day to day basis making a decision of, you don't want to miss out on going to a party, or doing something that you think might be fun. But ultimately, you don't really want to go, but you do it anyway, because of either pressure, or you feel like you should go to the party. And then you go, and you get there, and you're feeling discomfort, because you like, Why did I go? I didn't want to be here. So I think then, then you make that decision of okay, well, am I going to, you know, stay myself for going, am I going to stay? Am I going to leave? You know, that's, that's the aftermath of the dissonance. So I think these things can happen. Very, they're small, little quick moments of decision making, all day long that we have. And I think what you're, what you're encouraging is, can you be in a place of just being grounded and listening to your gut, so to speak, and responding and then being kind to yourself, whatever you decide,

Scott Benner 36:09
yeah, just whatever you did, you did. And that's it. We'll do it later. Like, you'll try again, if it didn't work out the right way. But, but so many people get caught in a in a loop. Yes. You know, the first is the first the first thing, the first decision they make, it doesn't go well. They just, they just keep reliving it, instead of just letting it go. And I hate this. Like, I'm a fairly. I'm a reasonably controlled person. Do you really mean like, I'm not an out of control person? I guess. And, and yet, I would tell you that nothing really matters all that much. Like if you don't kill somebody hurt somebody. There's almost nothing you can't rebound from, you know what I mean? Like, it's just, I don't know, Erica, do you have a? Do you have a code you live by?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 37:02
Oh, I don't, I don't think I can. A specific code or mantra. But I think knowing that you are, that I am loved and to be kind to one another. And I preach pretty loud and clear of being kind and gracious to yourself, to oneself to myself, you know, as we go about our lives and offering that to others. Yeah, you know, equally.

Scott Benner 37:28
That just makes sense. You get well, I mean, when I was young, I mean, everyone knows, right? Like, I didn't grow up, like with a real like, you know, with parents who were like, here's the rules get an amen. The rules were listen, and we're broke, you know, so try not to eat that today. Save for tomorrow. So, so I stepped back, and I thought, I need something to follow, like, like an idea to follow, right? And there's no, I don't have religion, so there was nothing there. And I thought about it, and I thought about it. I said, Okay, well, here's what I'm gonna do. I'm not going to hurt another person. I'm going to treat people generally the way I hope to be treated. And I'm not going to lie, if I can help it like that those that teenage me came up with. And I have to be honest with you works out pretty well. Because most of the time turns out, you don't have to lie. You don't I mean, and what do I mean, if if I can help it. Here's a great example. This happened yesterday, my wife ordered a bench for the house. It came in a box, it was missing parts, the parts kept the thing from being put together correctly. So the side of the bench is not attached to the top of the bench correctly. We called the company that made it and we tried to get the parts sent to us. The part was not available. They said, We don't have replacement parts for it, you're going to have to return the bench, but we bought it through Amazon. So they said you have to do it through Amazon. I called Amazon, I spoke to a person. And she said, What's the problem? And I have to admit to you what the problem is, is that I don't want to take that bench apart and ship it back to them. But it was a couple of $100. And I can't afford to just eat it. So she said you need to ship it back to us. And I said I can't. And she said Why is it I have no packaging material and it won't fit in my car. And she refunded my money. And I'm going to use that money to buy another bench. That was a lie, Erica, I could absolutely return that bench if I wanted. I do not want it. It's not my fault that it showed up without parts in it. And I am not going to go spend the next two hours of my life ripping this thing apart, boxing it up and dragging it back to a UPS store. I didn't do this. So I made some sort of a moral judgment that I was more on the right side of this than the wrong side of it. And I called one lie to get my money back. I have no trouble with that in the world. Now. Would I walk over my neighbor and tell him that I know his wife's cheating on somebody else because I think it would be fun. No, I would not do that. I would not make up I like that. So that's my, that's my line for lying.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 40:04
You have some limits

Scott Benner 40:06
what I consider to be a significant limit, but but you can pretty much trust. I would imagine if you were around me, you could trust that 99.9% of the time, I am absolutely being honest. If I get pinched, I'll bend the truth if I have to. Now, I always treat people the way I want to be treated, that I don't bend on. So I don't know. Like, I don't know if that's a Those are rules or not. But to me, they seem they seem like obvious things to do. And I don't know how I even brought it up at this point. I just was,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 40:42
yeah, it's a belief value system that maybe prevents you from experiencing the disc dissonance, the discomfort of how you want your, your beliefs and actions to align. And when they don't, that's when you experience the dissonance.

Scott Benner 40:59
Yeah, man, well, you know, even this topic with you today, like these kinds of like, like many topics inside of this. I mean, if we're all being 100% honest with each other, I have the opportunity, just like you do, to see how people are really thinking, right, because they'll come on here and tell a story. And they're pretty open about it, or I get to watch them online interact with each other, when they don't know they're being watched really like kind of thing. Like it's not creepy. I'm like you just listening to what people are saying and how they're, how they're impacting, and how these things are impacting their lives. And I'm telling you, that, from my perspective, a fair amount of the trouble people have managing their diabetes is based on how their brains are lying to them at times, or these things. You know what I mean? Like, and no one's I'm not aware of it, no one's aware of it as it happens. So you have to have these conversations that hopefully something like, morphs or clicks for you. You know what I mean?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 41:59
Yes, yes. Because I think then, where the this, this discomfort can then lead to the feelings of shame, and stress or regret that, you know, that I might hear about in my office with with clients or caregivers of I supposed to be doing this, or I made this mistake, I Bolus this way. Or I keep doing the same thing, even though I know I shouldn't be. And I keep eating the same thing. And then my numbers go this way. And now and then I experienced that discomfort because I know I feel like I shouldn't be because then you often have that should talk comes with the dissonance. And then you that leads to feelings of shame, and you can get stuck in that cycle. So we're trying to, you know, going back to it, let's be aware of those triggers. And those initial thought patterns is one of the ways that we can kind of release reduce some of that consistency and negative thinking, which is painful,

Scott Benner 43:01
talk a little more about the should like when something goes through, quote unquote. And you think this is not how it should have gone? What happens then?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 43:09
Yeah. So I think I hear that either whether there are rules around what you should and shouldn't eat. So if you're thinking I shouldn't have had the cake, I shouldn't have had all the candy or I'm not allowed. If it's more of a child thing I'm not supposed to I shouldn't have had that. And now I'm 500 or 300, and I can't. And then I had a sticky high forever, I couldn't bring it down. And then so now you're you're feeling frustrated about the high blood sugar. You're feeling shame because you ate something that you felt you weren't supposed to. Or you can eat anything you want, and you didn't Pre-Bolus for it. And so I think when we have that should talk in our mind, I think we want to look at why. What is that rule? What is the rule that I'm saying? I should have done this or I shouldn't have done that. Should you have Pre-Bolus? Yeah, probably should Was it okay to eat whatever it was that you ate? Well, let's look at what is your family culture? Like what is all that about? Because I don't want to I don't I try not to place judgment and some families don't want to, you know, eat sugar, and that's okay. So the should talk can lead to positive change unless it's, it's around this kind of shame cycle of I should have done a better job I keep making mistakes. And I don't know how or I don't care. So should often can lead to change in some ways, if there is a desire, but I also am really careful to want to understand is there shame underneath the should talk? Okay, does that make sense?

Scott Benner 44:52
No, it does. I was gonna say that. Back in the earlier part of the podcast, I would say more frequently. that, you know, just eliminate drama. Because it because it was an easy blanket way of saying avoid all these things that your brain is going to try to trick you into doing. You know, like, because when you when you make a Bolus and it doesn't go right. And then people This isn't fair like you spiral like, No, I didn't ask for this, that that's one that I'm always fascinated by, like, you know, type one diabetes is not fair because I didn't ask for it. And I'm like, My knee hurts. That's not fair. I didn't ask for it, I floated my vision. That's not fair. I didn't like none of this is fair, you gonna hear me like, it's never never going to be fair, like you're born. And then you grow and then your body starts to deteriorate. It happens at different speeds for different people. It happens if you have different medical conditions, it's going to hit you differently. Like, I don't know what, I don't know what spending time telling me it's not fair gets you like, this is the situation you're in, like, I'm gonna make the most of it person. Like, there are no other options, you're here or you're not. And so you're here and I'm not saying some people don't have terrible afflictions that are painful and, and crippling and life altering. I'm not talking about those people, those people that they should, they should get three hours a day to tell people it's not fair. And we ought to have to listen to them. I'm talking. You don't I mean, like, I mean, that that would be that would be a little closer to fair. I'm talking about, you know, you have allergies, and you can't go outside without taking Zyrtec. That's not fair. But I mean, just take this check. You know, you live in this time, I was, when my son was diagnosed with Hashimotos, it hit him really hard. And instead of, and during a car ride, when we spoke about it, what I told him was, you know, a couple of 100 years ago, we were pretty nomadic people moved around a lot. I said, if you broke your leg, you were dead. You don't you mean like, like, the group couldn't wait for you. And so you'd get left by yourself. And an animal would kill you. Take the centroid, you know what I mean? Like, I know, this sucks and all. But the truth is, is that if this would have happened to you, 200 years ago, you would have just, like deteriorated very quickly, it would have been horrible. And instead, you have to take a pill in the morning. And so, you know, maybe 200 years from now, you'll go into a doctor's office, they'll be like, Oh, you got the Hashimotos that sucks. No, pull out a needle and jam it in. Yeah, and it'll go away. Like, I don't know, where we're gonna lead, you know where this is gonna go to. But in the meantime, there is no time machine. This is the this is the part you live in right now. And diabetes, specifically. I mean, I mean, this is the it's literally the best time in history. And tomorrow will be the better than today and six months from now. And and then people get caught up with well, it's not happening fast enough. And that's like, No, I get that. But, you know, it's, um, this is it. This is what you got, you know, so

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 48:01
yeah, yeah. And, and just like with your son, too, with the Hashimotos, it can be a journey or a process of yeah, getting to that place of acceptance. And that there's there's no real specific timeline and how to get there. Beyond just the kind of lowering yourself to feel what he was feeling.

Scott Benner 48:21
Yeah. But But Erica, where's the? Is this just the fallacy that we're becoming weaker as people? We're doing it because like, I like I knew a guy when I was growing up, my friend's father walked really poorly, because of polio, he had polio as a kid. He's basically walking on the side of his foot. And you know what he did for a living? He drove a tractor trailer. And I never in the history of knowing this guy heard him complain, ever once. Like, like, he just did it like now maybe his expectations were lower because of the time he grew up in. And just maybe having not had the polio kill him was probably more than he could have hoped for, like, I don't know exactly, but I'm just telling you, this was not a particularly tough guy. He was just from a time where you didn't complain about things. You just just did it, you know. And, and I'm not saying that people should not try to alleviate their their struggles. I'm certainly not saying that. But I'm wondering, is it is there something about modern life that sets our expectations so high that anything that goes wrong? Seems like a like a huge. What's the word I want? Like that, like they were lied to?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 49:43
All right, right. Yeah. Or

Scott Benner 49:45
do you have any thoughts on that at all?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 49:46
Oh, my gosh, I feel I guess that's a huge topic to discuss it. Yeah. Like, are we now in an era of either entitlement or expectation that nothing bad should happen? To me, we have oh my gosh. Well, I was just as you were talking about this man on the tractor trailer, I'm wondering how much of our connection via social media has, you know, influenced or snowballed this issue of my either my life is better than yours, or my life is harder than yours. You know, and whether through images or words on all the, you know, socials in a comparison kind of way, even though we all know everyone has their own struggles. So I just wonder how much of that has, you know, exaggerated? It's

Scott Benner 50:54
super interesting that you said this, Erica, and no, no, but I, every time we talk, I realized why we get along so well. So I grew up a Philadelphia Eagles fan football. And we have the best defensive lineman in history at that point, Reggie White. And Reggie leaves the Eagles and goes to the Packers. At the end of of a contract. This is not something that used to occur back then. Like so free agency wasn't a thing in football up until I think it was another Eagles player a tight end, who went from the eagles to the dolphins. I think that's about when it started. Okay, not the point. The point is this, it's when they started making their their salaries public how black and because they needed to, they needed people to know how much they made. So other people could come and ask for more like they had to set up that structure. Prior to that it was all very, very kind of private, you didn't really know how much people made when they started making those people's salaries public. Suddenly, a man like Reggie White who people just adored. They hated him as soon as they learned how much he made. And and I thought, Well, you were so much better off not knowing you know what I mean? Like just go to the football game and enjoy the football game if that's what you like, like now you now you look at this guy, I forget what he was making back then it was probably nothing compared to now. And but people who made 2530 $45,000 A year were like, wait, I'm I work all year for 40 grand, and this guy's making half million dollars a week, he you know, or something like that. And then they couldn't see him anymore the way they saw him. And then it just exploded from there. And we started becoming more and more aware of people who have lives that are just if we're being honest, not average in any way. And now everybody thinks they should be making $7 million a year for doing the thing they're good at. And what I would tell you is whatever you're good at, if you can get 60,000 people show up every Sunday for 16 weeks and pay you $300 to watch it then god damn right, you want to make that much money. But that's not how most of this works. And it's interesting, because you said the same thing. Like you said, social media gives us an awareness that we didn't have before. Have a life that isn't ours. And that's exactly and people can't deal with that, generally speaking, where some people can't,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 53:25
right. And so and either response to that you're get you're either mentally just comparing by viewing what other people are posting, or you're posting yourself, you know, we talked about that last time, too. What, what is driving that behavior, I think there's just something to be you know, to be aware of, of how much you're you're being influenced by that exposure, and how that's influencing your mindset of either gratitude and acceptance, or woe is me. And grant, you will probably fluctuate between both of those things if you're living with a chronic illness. And that's okay. But I think just having that awareness of how much that is influencing your mindset is the key.

Scott Benner 54:11
There's nothing wrong with seeing someone's salary and thinking like, Oh, I wish I had that. That's, that's amazing. You don't I mean, but you can't you can't then just then stop living your life because it doesn't exist for you. I saw something online recently. A person who made a movie years ago, that was very, very popular, is making another movie, that sequel or something like that. And people are coming in and they're, you know, complaining and whatever. And I start reading the comments because they're fun. And the one person says, that movie you made all those years ago made me want to make movies. I dropped out of college, never made a movie and it ruined my life. And I was like, Oh my God. I was like he's blaming the guy for making the movie over this. Like, it's so interesting. Like, I'm not kidding. This 20 Five years ago, and this person is still thinking, the movie I saw on the story that I heard about how you made it, you ruined my life. And I was like, Oh, God, like that's, that's a horrible thing to have to live with, if that's what he really thinks,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 55:17
you know? Right? That's yeah, his narrative. Yeah, really, really

Scott Benner 55:20
interesting. But anyway, the last thing that I have on the list here, I really don't understand a whole lot. It just felt like it fit. And if I'm wrong, you'll stop me. And but I can't in any way. Explain it. So if you can't, we're in trouble. But myth of choice.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 55:37
Yes, yeah, the myth of choice. The another choice myth, however you want to say it the I think the grass is always greener can be another easy way to kind of explain this, you know, terms that when you're faced with a hardship, oftentimes our mind will tell us well, choosing this other alternative is going to be easier than the hardship that you're facing with now, or that you're faced with now. For example, the job is, you know, when that they often will talk about or if you read about, you're in a job, that's hard. And you start looking for other jobs, because either you don't like your boss, or you don't like your task list. And so you think, well, if I move to this other company doing the same job, it's going to be better. And you might initially have that, you so you make the different choice. And you have hope. And you have confidence in that choice, because that's just natural response, and you're doing something new. But then you're going to have another hardship, and then you kind of, and you might end in a in a more challenging position, because you thought, Oh, I thought this was going to be easier or better. And then you're going to have regret for leaving your job because maybe there were other positive things at your past job that were better than this new job. So anyway, that and then you kind of will cycle through that. I think there are other examples of I liked the one that I just recently read about of when you're at a stoplight, and your Google Maps is telling you to go one way. And you think, Well, I'm gonna go the backgrounds way. And I'm gonna get there faster. Like the unknown, you think is often the better alternative. And so that's the mess, the myth of the other choice, because then maybe you take it even Google Maps has all these algorithms and they're saying stay in this, this course, you take a different course because you think it's to be better. And in fact, it's, it's worse.

Scott Benner 57:48
You're, there's this way that we come home from my, from an extended family member's house, and you get to this certain stoplight, you go straight or right. And I always go straight. And my wife always goes right. And we both at like, like so far in two different cars. Right. And so we both completely believe that the one way is the better way. And yeah, we both arrived at the house almost simultaneously, every time. And when it happened, she's like, You spared and I'm like, No, I didn't she's like, Yes, you did. I think it just doesn't matter. But we both like i i Sometimes this is interesting, Erica I sometimes when I'm by myself turn right at that light instead of going straight, because it is not what I want to do. And I don't know why I do that to myself, but I forced myself not to believe that I've made some superior choice at this turn.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 58:43
Oh, that's like a good exposure in practice to just try. Try new things

Scott Benner 58:48
I'm doing in my car exposure. So it's, um, I don't know how this relates, it just seems like it does to me. You know, big, big examples are I think this myth of a choice often ruins people's relationships. You know, because, yeah, yeah, you get married, you think everything's gonna be perfect. And that's clearly not going to be what it's going to be. And eventually, you know, something's gonna happen, where it tarnishes, etc. And then you start thinking, like, ah, but that guy I used to date in college, he was better, you know, a man or she was better. I'm gonna go to that one now. And the truth is for me, I mean, my truth is, I believe that your history and the love that you've built and the I don't know, like the unseen on tangible like the tangible but not holdable ideas that you that you you know, end up constructing when you're building a family or a relationship like those are valuable. Like they don't they don't make your spouse pick up dog poop when they walk past that. But you know, Arca do we all know somebody who will just like pretend the dog too. input so that somebody else has to pick it up, right? So, but But So sure, you might go to the girl at the gym, who seems to love you because you know, etc, but ensure she might pick up the poop, but be something else she's not going to do at some point, you're gonna, what are you gonna do? You're gonna go back to your wife and go like, I'm so sorry. Like it's over now your hurt feelings, you know what I mean? Not to say there aren't reasons why relationships should dissolve? I'm clearly not saying that. I just mean that, if you start getting it in your head, that everything's always better, except for the thing you have. That's just a very dangerous way to live.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:00:36
You know? Yeah. It is, I think, and that's, you know, understanding what is the, if the problem at hand, and oftentimes that does happen in relationships, and I will meet with with clients about that very topic. And understanding is it is it because I have this hope that the next person's gonna be better, shinier, etc? Or is it really is not the right fit relationally. And that, you know, that takes time to kind of unpack. I think, one thing that we might do in, in diabetes, I think when you're trying to make a decision, let's say even just about, I'm trying to bring this back to, you know, the the the other the myth of the other choice, when you're trying to make a decision, whether it's about food, or even, like, you know, technology, that's a big topic that people will I you know, should I do this? Or that, should I use this pump or that pump or this, you know, in there? Or if you're using one is the other one going to be better? I think it's always important to just, what if it's a small decision, pause out, you're looking at, am I going to have this donut? Or am I going to have this banana? Like, pause? And just think through? is, am I making the right call here? Is this the right choice? If it's their bigger decisions, one of you know, the classic strategies ready do during the pro con list for both? I think if you're in a really intense situation, you're really stressed or really angry, it's often easier to say, Well, clearly, using this other product is going to be so much better, or doing this other thing is going to feel better. So I think trying to delay making any major decisions, or even small ones, if you're in a moment of extreme stress, anger, exhaustion, fatigue, because that often will drive your decision. Yeah, it'll

Scott Benner 1:02:40
do what you mentioned earlier, like your frustration will allow you to believe that anything different is going to be

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:02:44
better is gonna be better. Yeah. Yeah.

Scott Benner 1:02:48
Yeah. No, I was just gonna say, I mean, that's a great example, in diabetes, I was gonna use the one that, you know, listen, nobody has to listen to me. Okay. I'm not. I just said, Listen, you don't have to listen to me, which is hilarious. Poor, poor, poor, poor sentence structure there. But, you know, I'm just saying like, this is just my opinion, right? But leaving your blood sugar 200 all the time so that you don't get low? I don't think that's Oh, yeah, that's not a real choice. That's, that's, you know, first of all, I think it's a little, little confirmation bias, because it just hasn't, you know, I've never gotten low when I leave my blood sugar 200. And so this is obviously not going to lead to a low, it's not true, eventually, you're gonna get people get low when they use insulin, it's just happens. But the idea of it's like, to me, that's the smoking argument from earlier, right. Like, I can smoke as much as I want. It's not going to kill me. My Dad, I've told you this before my father would come back from like his physicals doctor says he can't even tell I smoke. And then you know, it killed him. congestive heart failure, which was directly related to his smoking. So you know, you can't leave your blood sugar 200 all the time and just go, Well, I'm okay today. So this is a good choice, because it won't, because I don't know how many people I gotta bring on here for you to listen to who you know, make that decision. And then 10 years later are on here saying I really wish I wouldn't have done that. And you know, because now here, here, all the real world, things that are happening to me that my magical thinking isn't going to take care of that I can't ignore. And that that medicine, at this time in history can't make go away anymore. Like you. Sometimes you give things away, you can't get them back. I think it's my point.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:04:31
Yes, I think that you kind of just typed in all the kind of maybe three topics that we've been talking about with if I let I know the science and data tells me I shouldn't ride at 202 50 all day, every day for years on end. But yet I feel comfortable there or you've learned how to feel comfortable but you might have had experience of feeling that dissonance or just comfort. So in response to that you're you're building a new belief system is Well, I'm okay here, I'm either not going to have complications, and I'm preventing myself from going low or having a seizure. So you've kind of changed your belief system in response to that number and living there. Right. And that's that is hard.

Scott Benner 1:05:19
I'm going to tell you something everyone listening Eric just said something a minute ago made my whole day. It's gonna probably stick with me through the weekend because I like other people I need I need love. I did do a perfect job of putting that all together just

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:05:36
you did Scott.

Scott Benner 1:05:37
Literally pleased with myself like you guys. Here's why can I can I pull the curtain back for a second? Sure. I have you for an hour, one time right before you go get your knee surgery. Yeah. And I think what's going to help people who listen to the podcast, and then with no psychological like psychology, I didn't go to college people know psychology background. I'm basically a moron. Dude, anemia, like all I have with me is my life experience. I mean, honestly, if you saw me try to do, I'm gonna say algebra, you probably would never talk to me again. Because you would like I don't want people to know, I know. I don't have any background in this is what I'm saying. All I have is my lived experience. And the experience I have talking to people and watching people online, manage their diabetes, their health issues, their relationships, that kind of stuff. And I know that people's brains lied, we lied to them. It's a weird way to say it. But I went online, and I was like, okay, like, if you think that prior to me setting this up with Erica, I could have defined cognitive dissonance. You're wrong. I know, the I, I know the idea. I recognize it as a human trait. But I don't know what it means. And then I thought, Okay, well, there, that idea definitely fits with the concept that people think there's this magical thing that happens that they can kind of control the world, those definitely go together. And then I needed a third thing to bring it together. And it's like, oh, the myth of choice, which is not something I know about it, you know, I just understood that. That's how people think. And then luckily, somebody who was much smarter than me had already talked about it in the world. And it has an I knew you would know about it. And that's all i That's all I knew when I brought those three ideas together. I wish I wish I was lying, but I put about 20 minutes worth of effort into this, then I let you tell me what you know. And then I just tried to mirror back what I've experienced and, and in the end people, you know, you got to take good care of yourself. And if you can't, if you definitely can't find a way through it, go find somebody that can help you with it. And you know, if anxiety is your is your problem. I don't think it matters if it's because the world's changing, or because whatever, it doesn't matter, people who are crippled by anxiety that is very real. And you're likely going to need help with that part. But all these other things are swirling around you and in my heart, I want you to make the decision. I want your life to go the way it you know, the ways as fair as possible for you, and the way that makes you the most comfortable and happy and productive. And I think it's important to know that your your thoughts are letting you down sometimes. And there's conscious decisions you can make, like making a right turn instead of going straight. And goddamnit.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:08:32
Be kind and be kind to yourself in the midst of it all.

Scott Benner 1:08:36
Yes. So you're saying when I pull into the into the driveway before my wife, I should not give her the finger as I'm pulling.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:08:45
Yes, that's what I'm saying you should not do that.

Scott Benner 1:08:48
Anything you want to add to this because I'm, again, a neophyte. I don't know what I'm talking about.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:08:53
No, I think that was a great a great wrap up in summary, I think, you know, these are big terms. And if there's still confusing there are lots of resources and talks and topics on all of them. But basically it is it's being aware of your thought patterns and and how they're influencing your actions is really kind of summing it up. And that's really the first place to go but also being aware of that self talk is key. Good. How are you talking to yourself? Yeah, so thank

Scott Benner 1:09:23
you, of course and Erica, of course if you live in California, here's the big or you want to say it here we'll say it somewhere else too. But you know, our kids been doing you know, therapy for a long time, but she did it. Was it part time or just not your full?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:09:39
It was It was part time for for many many years. As I also worked as a school counselor and psychotherapist

Scott Benner 1:09:47
but expanding those children and your

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:09:52
eye Yes, I am in the process this fall transitioning to full time private practice, which I'm really excited about. Excellent.

Scott Benner 1:09:59
So if you If you live in California, Erica forsyth.com That's right.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:10:04
Thank you so much. And

Scott Benner 1:10:05
if you don't live in California, go find your own. Erica. I found her. You could find yours.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:10:11
Yes, yes.

Scott Benner 1:10:13
Well, thank you so much for doing this with me.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:10:15
You're welcome. Thank you of course.

Scott Benner 1:10:27
First, I'd like to thank Erica Forsythe remind you go to Erica forsythe.com. And let you know that as soon as Eric has knee is all mended up and she's feeling better record an entire series, a Pro Tip series for mental health. A huge thank you to one of today's sponsors, G voc glucagon, find out more about Chivo Capo pen at G Vogue glucagon.com forward slash juicebox you spell that GVOKEGL You see ag o n.com forward slash juicebox. I'd also like to thank us med for sponsoring this episode of The Juicebox Podcast and remind you to go to us med.com forward slash juicebox get better service and better care with us med You can also call 888-721-1514 If you're enjoying the podcast please share it with someone else who you think might also enjoy it. And don't forget to subscribe in the app you're listening in. Some apps want you to subscribe some say to follow subscriber follow it means the same thing, go into that audio app and hit subscribe. Doing that will help me it will make the show more visible in other people's searches and it will give you access to all the new content as soon as it's available. Thank you so much for listening. I'll be back very soon with another episode of The Juicebox Podcast.