#1751 Body Grief: Dismissal and Shock
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Dismissal and Shock in body grief, especially with type 1 diabetes, revealing how fear, isolation, and overwhelm show up—and offering grounding practices to rebuild body trust and move forward.
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Scott Benner (0:00) Hello, friends, and welcome back to another episode of the Juice Box podcast. (0:15) Hey. (0:16) Welcome back. (0:16) This is the second installment of the body grief series with myself and Erica Forsythe. (0:22) If you like Erica and you wanna learn more about her, please go to ericaforesythe.com.
Scott Benner (0:28) Nothing you hear on the juice box podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise. (0:33) Always consult a physician before making any changes to your health care plan. (0:43) If your loved one is newly diagnosed with type one diabetes and you're seeking a clear practical perspective, check out the bold beginnings series on the juice box podcast. (0:52) It's hosted by myself and Jenny Smith, an experienced diabetes educator with over thirty five years of personal insight into type one. (1:00) Our series cuts through the medical jargon and delivers straightforward answers to your most pressing questions.
Scott Benner (1:05) You'll gain insight from real patients and caregivers and find practical advice to help you confidently navigate life with type one. (1:12) You can start your journey informed and empowered with the Juice Box podcast. (1:16) The bold beginning series and all of the collections in the Juice Box podcast are available in your audio app and at juiceboxpodcast.com in the menu. (1:31) US Med is sponsoring this episode of the juice box podcast, and we've been getting our diabetes supplies from US Med for years. (1:39) You can as well.
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Scott Benner (2:27) Erica, I'm just gonna say this while we're recording. (2:30) I don't know to I don't know how to start this. (2:31) Like, we'll figure it out together, I guess. (2:33) Okay. (2:34) So so we've done the intro to body grief, and now we're gonna kinda get into the very first episode that, you know, expands on all the ideas that we did the overview for.
Scott Benner (2:43) But I don't I don't know how to introduce it. (2:45) So I'm guessing I'm gonna let you pump her through it for a second. (2:47) Tell me.
Erika Forsyth (2:48) Okay. (2:49) So, yes, in our intro episode, we talked about what is body grief, again, stemming and coming from the book called This Is Body Grief by Jane Mattingly. (3:00) And so just to review that the definition of body grief is the sense of loss and mourning that comes with a with living in an ever changing body. (3:12) So similarly to kind of the general grief that we are more familiar with around loss and death, there are many stages associated with that. (3:22) And with body grief, there are seven stages that we are that we sort of introduced in our first episode, and now we're gonna dive into the first stage, which is called dismissal.
Scott Benner (3:36) Okay. (3:38) Is there something for me to do here, or am I gonna be mostly, like am I mostly gonna be listening and then asking inane questions? (3:45) Is that my job today?
Erika Forsyth (3:46) That that's your job today.
Scott Benner (3:47) Yes. (3:48) Alright. (3:48) Go ahead.
Erika Forsyth (3:48) You can listen and interject and reflect as you do.
Scott Benner (3:52) Go ahead. (3:52) Go for it then.
Erika Forsyth (3:53) Okay. (3:53) So and as a reminder that these stages, these body grief stages are are not linear even though we are announcing them numerically and in an order, you obviously can go back and forth, at any point in your life. (4:09) And we are certainly talking about body grief through the lens of living with diabetes, but this also can be applied to any other issue that occurs within your body. (4:20) So it's just getting a cold. (4:21) You might go through some of these stages or having surgery or changing, you know, going through menopause, you'll experience this.
Erika Forsyth (4:29) So you can kind of listen to these stages through various lenses. (4:34) Yeah. (4:34) But we'll be we'll be applying those, specifically to diabetes also.
Scott Benner (4:38) And I wanna reiterate. (4:40) It's not like it's not like there's certain number of stages, and they happen in an order. (4:44) These things could some of them could happen to you. (4:46) All of them. (4:47) Some of them could repeat, that kind of thing.
Scott Benner (4:49) Right?
Erika Forsyth (4:50) Yes. (4:50) Okay. (4:51) Absolutely. (4:52) And so this first stage dismissal could occur most most definitely at at diagnosis. (5:00) Mhmm.
Erika Forsyth (5:00) But as we get into it, you'll see where it might show up at any point in your life, as as the both the caregiver as well, but also for the person living with with diabetes. (5:11) So dismissal sounds like I'm fine. (5:16) Everything's fine. (5:17) Like like, when someone says, how are you doing? (5:19) I'm I'm fine.
Erika Forsyth (5:20) Everything's fine. (5:22) But underneath that, if you are in the dismissal stage, what you're really trying to do is stay in control of the narrative when you aren't really sure what's going on in your body. (5:35) Right? (5:36) So you're kind of ignoring, dismissing, and it is a response to fear. (5:43) Now there's a couple different reasons why.
Erika Forsyth (5:47) So you might be fearful. (5:50) When someone says, how are you doing? (5:52) And this is just for the example here. (5:53) And you say, I'm I'm fine. (5:54) Everything's fine.
Erika Forsyth (5:56) Maybe you're fearful of inconveniencing yourself or the other by going into detail. (6:03) And this is where we're gonna get into this point a little bit later when we talk about misconceptions.
Scott Benner (6:08) Okay.
Erika Forsyth (6:09) We might be also fearful of the future. (6:12) Right? (6:12) When someone says, how are you doing? (6:15) And you dismiss how you're actually doing? (6:17) Mhmm.
Erika Forsyth (6:17) Are you really are you scared of what what is to come? (6:20) You're not really sure. (6:22) Or are you fearful that your body, the way you lived, the way you functioned, will never go back to the way you were before. (6:31) Mhmm. (6:32) So you're responding to some of that fear without maybe even knowing it.
Scott Benner (6:37) Do you think that when someone says, I'm fine, that some people are doing that thing that you just described, like trying not to talk about what maybe they're not fine or maybe they're not sure how they're gonna be. (6:49) Do you think there are some people that just have an out of sight, out of mind mentality and that they really are fine, or do you think that's still something just someone says and they maybe don't consciously realize how they feel? (7:02) That makes sense?
Erika Forsyth (7:04) Yes. (7:04) I think if we're discussing this through, like, the lens of knowing that something just happened majorly to your body, for example, the diagnosis, and you're really feeling the the burden and the grief from that and you're responding,
Scott Benner (7:19) I'm
Erika Forsyth (7:19) fine, I think there are two big drivers of that within the diabetes context. (7:25) One is the fear of not knowing what's actually happening. (7:29) You're trying to just stay keep it together.
Scott Benner (7:31) Yeah.
Erika Forsyth (7:31) And the other one is the is the kind of misconception, which we'll get into. (7:35) But in your response or your question, I think sometimes you might just be fine. (7:42) Right. (7:42) And you might not be struggling with how your body is adjusting to something that has happened.
Scott Benner (7:48) Because I've interviewed people who have said that, and I've believed them. (7:52) And I've interviewed people who said that, and I thought, oh, you're lying to yourself. (7:56) Mhmm. (7:56) But I don't know if that's conscious or unconscious. (7:58) But there are there have been some people that I just think you could drop them into any situation, and they're just like, keep going.
Scott Benner (8:04) All good.
Erika Forsyth (8:04) Mhmm.
Scott Benner (8:05) You you know? (8:06) But it's I don't know. (8:08) I always still wonder about those people too. (8:10) I because I think I'm one of those people, and I wonder about me. (8:12) Like, am I really just okay, or am I have I decided that this part we won't think about anymore and, therefore, we can pretend we're okay.
Scott Benner (8:21) I I I I just think it's interesting. (8:23) But I
Erika Forsyth (8:23) It is. (8:24) Yeah. (8:24) Well and I think even just conversationally when you're, like, checking out at the grocery store, how are you doing? (8:31) I'm fine. (8:32) Thanks.
Erika Forsyth (8:32) How are you? (8:32) Right? (8:32) Like, it's such a part of our cultural kind of common exchange, being polite, being social. (8:39) And there also is that caveat too of, like, of course, there are appropriate times to maybe keep it more surface y
Scott Benner (8:45) Yeah.
Erika Forsyth (8:45) Or or not.
Scott Benner (8:46) Oh, sure.
Erika Forsyth (8:47) But here, we're kind of focusing in on those moments. (8:50) And and whether it's conscious or not, are you responding, I'm fine, everything's fine, when really underneath the surface, you are freaking out, and you're uncertain about what's gonna happen. (9:01) How is and I'm thinking also through the lens the caregiver, you know, you're you're really worried about what your child's future is gonna be like, and you're and you're maybe longing and missing and grieving the, you know, the past. (9:14) Mhmm. (9:15) Okay.
Erika Forsyth (9:16) So in that space, if you are operating in out of dismissal, it could be that you're fearing once you say the truth out loud, again, that being inconvenient, it might be too troubling. (9:30) It might be even too confusing for the other person and just too painful. (9:34) Right? (9:35) So you're just trying to, like, keep keep things going. (9:37) And are there times when you need to do that?
Erika Forsyth (9:38) Yes. (9:39) But this is kind of, again, if you're operating out of this stage consistently, you might be in dismissal stage. (9:46) Is
Scott Benner (9:47) there a piece of that where you can't you can't get the genie back in the bottle so you gotta kinda keep it there too? (9:54) Like, know what mean? (9:55) Like, once I say it, I can't go back to the part where I pretend this wasn't happening anymore.
Erika Forsyth (10:01) Absolutely.
Scott Benner (10:02) Yeah.
Erika Forsyth (10:02) That's that's the part. (10:03) Right? (10:03) So if you you don't wanna acknowledge if you're scared and you don't wanna acknowledge what you were just saying, you don't wanna acknowledge what's happening, that's when this dismissal stage shows up. (10:15) So you're trying to you're just trying to keep it going. (10:16) Mhmm.
Erika Forsyth (10:17) Right? (10:17) I'm too scared. (10:18) I don't really know what's going on in my body, but I'm gonna try and control the narrative and keep it going.
Scott Benner (10:23) Okay. (10:24) Yeah. (10:25) It occurs to me. (10:26) This is I hope this feels on point. (10:28) But, I mean, as human beings, isn't that this how we have most of our long term successes?
Scott Benner (10:33) Like, at some point, don't you have to, like, turn the other cheek or turn a blind eye or pretend or whatever at some point in all different parts of your life. (10:41) Right? (10:41) Like, so some of it's not just coping. (10:45) I think some of it's you know what I'm saying? (10:47) Like, in every personal relationship that's ever existed, if we all stopped sometime when something happened that was it was actually in a front to us and we put our foot in the in the dirt, it would probably break up all kinds of different things.
Scott Benner (11:01) Like, everybody's gotta take I don't know. (11:03) This is interesting, but do you do it with yourself is what I'm wondering. (11:06) Like, do is that the same idea? (11:09) Like, if I wanna get to the end of this, do I have to dismiss a portion of this? (11:13) But you're gonna tell me if I'm if I'm as you keep going, I think it's gonna come in a picture for me.
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Erika Forsyth (13:25) Yes. (13:26) And I hear this. (13:28) So what we're thinking, it feels confusing maybe a little bit or not as clear because when we're talking about dismissal and I'm fine, everything's fine, in response to there is you are experiencing grief as a result of either the diagnosis. (13:47) And this is a really natural part of going of processing what is actually happening in your body. (13:53) So this isn't like we're we're not this isn't wrong Yeah.
Erika Forsyth (13:56) Or bad, but this is really normal. (14:00) And I think what to to recognize that you are doing it, these are some signs. (14:06) Right? (14:06) So so so signs that you are in dismissal. (14:09) If you're noticing that you don't want to be seen as too much or too needy or too difficult, so you're keeping at real surface level with yourself or with others.
Erika Forsyth (14:19) You might be canceling plans with your friends. (14:24) You're not responding to texts or emails or phone calls because you don't want them to actually see how you're actually doing.
Scott Benner (14:33) Right.
Erika Forsyth (14:35) Conversely, you might overwork, overproduce, overschedule to prove you're you're doing great. (14:42) Like, look at me. (14:43) I can do all these things. (14:43) I'm I'm fine. (14:45) I'm I can keep it going.
Erika Forsyth (14:47) With this is where we're talking about with diabetes and dismissal. (14:53) This is a really common, place of pain and tension for people, particularly diagnosis, but this happens all the time when I feel like dismissals is a tricky and complicated stage because of this duality that we've talked about before with with diabetes. (15:13) Do we wanna do we wanna keep it private, or do we want to explain it to everyone? (15:17) When when someone says, how are you doing? (15:20) And you've been up all night with lows, or you're just burnout.
Erika Forsyth (15:25) You're you're faced with this. (15:27) Do I try and explain it to them how I'm actually feeling? (15:32) Do I keep it private, but then I'm feeling I'm either feeling isolated and alone in it, or I'm gonna try and explain it, and maybe they aren't really gonna get it. (15:42) So I'm gonna feel misunderstood, and their platitudes might not land the way I want them to. (15:49) So then do you revert back to, I'm fine.
Erika Forsyth (15:53) Everything's fine.
Scott Benner (15:54) The other option, really?
Erika Forsyth (15:55) Right.
Scott Benner (15:55) Right? (15:56) Because you're either going to, like, struggle through the explanation, and they'll understand, and then you've had to put out a bunch of energy. (16:02) Or you struggle through it, they don't understand. (16:04) Now you're frustrated that even though they've heard it, they don't seem to get it. (16:08) I just had this person online talk about how, like, one of their best friends just told them their friendship was over because they couldn't handle listening to them about their diabetes anymore.
Scott Benner (16:17) That's horrible. (16:18) Right? (16:18) Like, so you're running that risk. (16:20) Yeah. (16:20) There's a lot of risk in there.
Scott Benner (16:21) But if I'm fine is not the is there an answer besides I'm fine in polite society? (16:29) This is none of your business? (16:30) Like, do I say, hey. (16:31) Why don't you leave me alone? (16:32) Like like, because like, don't make me lie to you.
Scott Benner (16:35) Maybe you should say don't make me lie to you. (16:36) That'd be a great way to respond.
Erika Forsyth (16:39) Yeah. (16:40) I wanna be honest, but can you handle it? (16:42) Yeah. (16:42) Yeah. (16:43) I that's the tricky part.
Erika Forsyth (16:45) And I think this there's this there's the internal fear and avoidance of dismissal, but then this external dismissal, which I would probably just define as as misconceptions
Scott Benner (16:56) Mhmm.
Erika Forsyth (16:57) May keep us in that place of what you're saying of, like, is there an is there an alternative besides I'm fine? (17:03) So when people are saying things and, like, you know, aren't you grateful it's not cancer? (17:09) Or it's it's easier with that pump and CGM. (17:12) Right? (17:13) I get that all the time.
Scott Benner (17:14) Yeah.
Erika Forsyth (17:15) You don't you don't seem sick. (17:17) You don't seem like you have a chronic illness.
Scott Benner (17:19) Mhmm.
Erika Forsyth (17:20) Or or you're so strong and resilient, you know, the warrior thing. (17:26) And so we're we are faced with those misconceptions. (17:31) And those will land, and they will feel they will sting at any point in our lives because we're human. (17:40) Probably more intensely, I would say, at diagnosis when you're trying to figure out what is your identity with diabetes. (17:50) But left unacknowledged, I feel like this is where we talked about in the intro episode of this is where kind of diabetes distress and and body grief, I think, kind of overlap.
Erika Forsyth (18:03) Okay. (18:03) Right? (18:03) Like, we experience distress when we're constantly being faced with those misconceptions along with all the other things we're having to manage. (18:12) And so we're gonna get to a practice of what do we do with these misconceptions besides trying to educate everyone, which is, you know, impossible.
Scott Benner (18:20) Yeah. (18:20) I I had an experience recently during an interview where a parent kept saying that thing, like, the kids are so they're heroes. (18:27) They're this. (18:28) They're that. (18:28) And I I I did not have the heart, like, to stop and just say, I don't think you should put that on them.
Scott Benner (18:35) Like, because I think maybe you're just trying to talk yourself into believing they're gonna be okay cause they seem okay or they're so tough or something like that. (18:43) And I I just always revert back to, like, what's the alternative? (18:46) Like, you know what I mean? (18:47) Like, people I don't think people are brave because they want to be. (18:51) I think they're brave because they don't have any other choice in those situations.
Scott Benner (18:54) You know what I mean?
Erika Forsyth (18:56) Yes. (18:56) I know I know we've wrestled with this, you know, the phrase of that you're a t one d warrior or, you know, whatever kind of warrior. (19:04) The I think that's that's positive, and I totally affirm and encourage that.
Scott Benner (19:10) Yes.
Erika Forsyth (19:11) And there also has to be space for the kid to say or for yourself to say, this sucks. (19:16) Yeah. (19:17) This is hard.
Scott Benner (19:17) Top line.
Erika Forsyth (19:18) Because I'm a warrior and it is hard.
Scott Benner (19:20) Yeah. (19:20) Top line. (19:21) And and, I mean, that person's intention, I think everybody's intention Yeah. (19:25) Says it, is it's incredibly positive. (19:28) I just think that sometimes you have to look downstream a little bit to see how it might be, you know, perceived by the person who you're describing that way who probably does not feel brave or strong.
Scott Benner (19:39) You you yeah.
Erika Forsyth (19:39) Or or maybe doesn't wanna be.
Scott Benner (19:41) Right. (19:42) Right. (19:42) Or doesn't want to be or is pretending to be or whatever. (19:44) It's just it's a lot to put on another person. (19:48) You know what I mean?
Erika Forsyth (19:49) Yes. (19:51) Yeah. (19:51) And I think that nurturing and encouraging and and and speaking those words out loud is positive because it's a positive thing for for yourself as the caregiver or the person living with diabetes. (20:05) But you always get to acknowledge the other side. (20:08) Or else then it feels like, well, there's no space.
Erika Forsyth (20:11) There's no room. (20:12) I'm not allowed to feel anything else besides I'm brave and resilient and strong. (20:16) But what if I don't wanna be? (20:17) What if I hate being like that today? (20:19) Yeah.
Scott Benner (20:20) No. (20:21) I hear it. (20:21) I and I I also feel it for the people on the other side of it who it's often friends, family, loved ones, your parents, somebody who are is really worried about you. (20:30) And I I I don't think they can handle thinking that you're not somehow a superhero in this scenario. (20:36) Right?
Scott Benner (20:36) Like, I've even I I've said before, like, some of the most together people I've ever met have type one. (20:42) Right? (20:42) Because it feels like they have a ton of perspective. (20:45) But I I think that's true. (20:46) I think they've been through a lot and they have a lot of perspective.
Scott Benner (20:49) I'm not saying they wanted the perspective. (20:51) Like, you know, like, I I say sometimes, like, I feel like I have the perspective of, a 95 year old man. (20:55) I had it when I was, like, 30. (20:57) I didn't want it though. (20:59) Like, you you know what I mean?
Scott Benner (21:00) Like, I would have liked to have learned about life the same way everybody else does, not through 17 horrible things that happened very quickly over a twenty four month period. (21:08) So Mhmm. (21:08) Anyway. (21:09) Okay. (21:09) Alright.
Scott Benner (21:10) Where where do we go from here? (21:11) How do we fix this? (21:12) No. (21:12) I'm sorry.
Erika Forsyth (21:12) We don't fix our budget. (21:15) We have to work through it, Scott.
Scott Benner (21:17) Okay. (21:17) Alright. (21:18) How do we work through it?
Erika Forsyth (21:20) So, well, before we get into the kind of the body residency practice, which we're gonna do in a minute, I think having also a practical tool in the moment when you're wrestling with this, I'm I'm saying I'm fine. (21:36) Everything's fine. (21:37) But underneath, I'm I'm freaking out or I'm really struggling. (21:42) I think with starting from kind of this concept of the misconception of, you know, people think it's easy because we make it look easy. (21:50) But when they make comments, we're not quite sure how to respond.
Erika Forsyth (21:53) So that kind of perpetuates this loop of misconception. (21:56) Mhmm. (21:57) One of my favorite statements that I make and I practice with with my clients is, when they say, you know, how are you doing? (22:04) Or, like or they'll ask questions about the pump and the CGM, and and consider or hope that it's easier. (22:12) Let's see.
Erika Forsyth (22:13) You know, living living with diabetes or living with even with this technology is is way more complex and complicated than I ever imagined. (22:22) And I think in that moment, you're kind of teaching them that, oh, yeah. (22:26) I used to I used to think it was easy
Scott Benner (22:29) Yeah.
Erika Forsyth (22:30) Until I got it.
Scott Benner (22:31) Right. (22:31) You put it on
Erika Forsyth (22:32) And then I realized it's really hard.
Scott Benner (22:34) You kinda put it on yourself a little bit. (22:35) Like, you I felt that way too until I I got into it here, and it's it's it's nice. (22:41) You know, it there's value in it, but it's not it doesn't just make it easy. (22:45) You do see people say that about the pumps especially, like, oh, well, it just takes care of everything. (22:49) Right?
Scott Benner (22:50) Like, that's a real interesting mistake.
Erika Forsyth (22:52) I wish.
Scott Benner (22:52) Yeah. (22:53) Yeah.
Erika Forsyth (22:53) I wish.
Scott Benner (22:53) That'd be awesome.
Erika Forsyth (22:56) Or have having something prepared. (23:00) And, you know, again, it it it feels really intense in the beginning. (23:06) And I think, you know, wrestling with that, people are not understanding how hard it is. (23:11) So either I'm just gonna say I'm fine when I'm not or when I try and speak something out say how I'm actually feeling, they're not really understanding. (23:18) And they'll say, oh, yeah.
Erika Forsyth (23:19) I I was sick too once, or I, you know, struggle with this other thing. (23:26) And then you're you're just you're left with feeling alone. (23:29) And so deciding in those micro all of these micro moments of how do I wanna respond, it will get easier over time when someone says, oh, you can you eat that cookie? (23:43) And I'll be like, heck, yeah. (23:44) I can.
Erika Forsyth (23:45) I'm gonna have two. (23:46) Or or I'll it'll I mean, I but these moments, I as I've shared these a lot of these examples, I know, over the years, they still stick with me.
Scott Benner (23:55) Right.
Erika Forsyth (23:56) I still remember almost all of them.
Scott Benner (23:57) Do you ever
Erika Forsyth (23:58) But they have sting less.
Scott Benner (23:59) Yeah. (23:59) Ever have two cookies just to show them you can when you don't want one? (24:03) Can you have one of those? (24:04) You're like, I'm gonna grab another one now. (24:06) What do think of that?
Erika Forsyth (24:06) Yeah. (24:07) Yeah. (24:08) Or, you know, just recently, a friend was traveling abroad, and they said, what can you bring back? (24:13) They're going to, I think it it was Switzerland. (24:15) I said, oh, can you bring me back some chocolate?
Erika Forsyth (24:17) And and they said, oh, can can you eat chocolate? (24:22) I said, oh, yes. (24:23) I love I love dark chocolate.
Scott Benner (24:25) Just keep it nice and simple. (24:26) Don't explain it. (24:27) Just Yeah.
Erika Forsyth (24:28) Yes. (24:29) So but then I I wanna validate that that type of comment I've been living with with type one for thirty five plus years. (24:38) I know that that would really bring me down. (24:42) Be like, that person, how do they not know? (24:44) They know me.
Erika Forsyth (24:45) Yeah. (24:45) And and I still feel that. (24:47) I still feel like, wow. (24:47) They they don't. (24:48) But then it's, choosing just to respond to say, yes.
Erika Forsyth (24:52) I can. (24:53) And moving on will feel easier at some times than others.
Scott Benner (24:57) You would have ex you would have, responded differently when you were younger, you think?
Erika Forsyth (25:02) I probably would have shut down and not talked to anybody. (25:05) Yeah.
Scott Benner (25:05) Oh, really? (25:06) Okay.
Erika Forsyth (25:06) But inside would have been really angry or, you know, the shame around that. (25:10) You shouldn't you shouldn't be eating that.
Scott Benner (25:12) Right.
Erika Forsyth (25:13) But I think or and then deciding if it is a good friend to say, well, actually, you know, I I can eat. (25:18) I and deciding, do you wanna explain more? (25:20) How much do you wanna go with that person?
Scott Benner (25:24) Current day, when you ask somebody for to bring you chocolate home from Switzerland as an example, do you know that the follow-up is gonna be that? (25:31) Are you already prepared for when you ask for the chocolate? (25:34) They're gonna say, oh, can you have chocolate? (25:36) Or do you not think of it
Erika Forsyth (25:37) that correctly? (25:38) I was surprised.
Scott Benner (25:38) Oh, it took me as surprised.
Erika Forsyth (25:40) Yeah. (25:40) Okay. (25:40) Yeah. (25:43) Yes. (25:44) So I think that it just it you're I'm kind of constantly surprised around the misconceptions even with my close friends.
Scott Benner (25:52) Are do the levels you know who I always feel the worst for? (25:55) The people whose parents still don't get it. (25:58) That that's just a certain level of, like, just, are you kidding me? (26:02) You you know, like, my mom still doesn't understand this. (26:05) I grew up with this, and she doesn't get it.
Scott Benner (26:07) Like, I've I've I've seen people be, I think, extra damaged. (26:12) It's the word that keeps coming into my head, but, like, extra impacted by that. (26:15) You know? (26:16) So Mhmm. (26:16) Interesting.
Scott Benner (26:17) So as a friend of yours, you expected would not say that, and you got and you said the right thing. (26:21) You said what you meant to say. (26:23) Look at you.
Erika Forsyth (26:24) Oh, wait. (26:24) What?
Scott Benner (26:25) I mean, your your response was, oh, yeah. (26:27) I can have that. (26:27) I love dark chocolate.
Erika Forsyth (26:28) Yeah. (26:28) Yeah.
Scott Benner (26:28) I love I love
Erika Forsyth (26:29) dark chocolate. (26:30) And then we didn't go into it. (26:31) I we I could have, and then it just the the subject changed. (26:36) Mhmm. (26:37) But the fact that I'm bringing it up and I remember it also means oh, yeah.
Erika Forsyth (26:41) It it landed somewhere in my in my heart. (26:44) Right? (26:44) You didn't
Scott Benner (26:45) you didn't go, are you kidding me, Patty? (26:47) Are you out of we have known each other for fifteen years. (26:50) Hey. (26:50) You didn't do that. (26:51) Right?
Scott Benner (26:52) Like, start stomping your feet. (26:53) You know, like, that's it. (26:54) We're done. (26:55) Son of a bitch.
Erika Forsyth (26:56) Yeah. (26:57) So, I mean, it just it it does happen in having prepared responses. (27:03) And over time, you're gonna hear it more. (27:05) And so then you also have that practice. (27:07) Okay.
Erika Forsyth (27:08) Anyway, we sorry. (27:10) We went a little bit off topic. (27:12) But what can you do having those those responses prepared? (27:18) And then secondly, going back to, you know, what so what do you do with that feeling? (27:23) There's one there's one respond you could have that verbal response in the moment.
Erika Forsyth (27:27) But then maybe when you go home and you're just feeling, like, either isolated or misunderstood or invalidate invalidated, You want to engage in that in those feelings. (27:37) You know, I know, Scott, you joke about, like, well, how do we fix this? (27:41) So we can't we can't fix it, but we can feel it. (27:44) And so engaging with the body grief, engaging with the feelings means meeting your body where it's at right now. (27:51) So we're gonna we're gonna do something that if you're driving, I encourage you not to do it.
Erika Forsyth (27:56) So maybe you can pause and listen to this later. (28:00) But we're gonna do a body scan exercise because one of the practices, that is encouraged if you're noticing that you're in dismissal is to practice body residency
Scott Benner (28:11) Okay.
Erika Forsyth (28:12) Which means really kind of like, what maybe some of you already do, like body scans, mindfulness, mindful eating, stretching, yoga, grounding exercises, anything where you are actually pausing and engaging and connecting with how your body is physically feeling, how your body is emotionally feeling. (28:36) And it can be done sixty seconds. (28:39) You could take an hour, but that's what we're gonna do right now. (28:43) Is that okay?
Scott Benner (28:44) Yeah. (28:44) I would love to. (28:45) I I was worried that like, you when said you can't do it while you're driving, was like, I hope this is a pants on thing. (28:49) I don't know what's happening right now. (28:51) Go ahead.
Scott Benner (28:51) Alright. (28:51) So what are the steps?
Erika Forsyth (28:54) Scott. (28:54) Okay. (28:54) So so and and going back to the concept of body trust. (28:59) Mhmm. (28:59) Right?
Erika Forsyth (29:00) Which is this two way street in order to trust our bodies, our bodies need to trust us to take care of it, be kind to it, and nourish it. (29:10) And that is the concept that Jane talks about, that we're always trying to return to body trust. (29:16) Alright? (29:17) So in order to trust our bodies, our body needs to trust us to take care of it. (29:21) So when you're feeling like you're in this dismissal stage, you can check-in and engage with your body, and that is part of processing through the body grief.
Erika Forsyth (29:33) So we're gonna do a body scan right now.
Scott Benner (29:36) Am I gonna close my eyes? (29:37) I'll
Erika Forsyth (29:37) do it. (29:37) Yes. (29:37) You are. (29:38) Okay. (29:38) I'm gonna lead you through this.
Erika Forsyth (29:39) Okay? (29:39) So I'm going to invite you. (29:42) If you can get just take a minute to get to a place where you can sit down and close your eyes and place your feet on the floor. (29:52) Just notice your feet on the floor.
Scott Benner (29:55) Got it.
Erika Forsyth (29:56) Notice feeling your back back up against the chair. (30:00) Mhmm. (30:00) And you can be relaxed. (30:03) And take a deep breath in through your nose and hold and out through your mouth. (30:13) And continuing to take deep breaths, I invite you to place your hands either on your stomach or your heart or your legs.
Scott Benner (30:26) I chose my heart.
Erika Forsyth (30:27) Yes. (30:28) And just feel just notice the warmth of your hands wherever they are. (30:33) Just notice the warmth of your hands over your heart or your stomach or your legs wherever they're resting. (30:40) And just feel that connection. (30:46) And continuing with the deep breath, notice any places of tension in your body.
Scott Benner (30:53) My neck?
Erika Forsyth (30:54) Your neck. (30:55) So you can take a deep breath in, and you can roll your neck around comfortably and slowly. (31:06) For many of us, we keep a lot of tension in our our neck and shoulders. (31:10) You might wanna take a deep breath in and roll your shoulders up and back down and breathe out. (31:23) And keeping your eyes closed and your body relaxed, I'm gonna read some affirmations that you can read to your or read to yourself or say to yourself in your mind.
Erika Forsyth (31:38) It is normal and healthy to grieve. (31:45) It's okay not to have the answers today. (31:52) My body is changing, and I am safe. (32:00) I know my body, and my body is wise. (32:09) And if any of those affirmations seemed to resonate or stand out for you, just take another deep breath in and holding on to those words and exhale.
Erika Forsyth (32:26) And when you're ready, you can open your eyes and return to the room that you're in.
Scott Benner (32:34) That's really nice. (32:36) Seriously. (32:38) I might come back and listen to this again.
Erika Forsyth (32:41) Yeah. (32:42) So that was a bit rushed just for the sake of, you know
Scott Benner (32:47) For this. (32:47) Yeah. (32:47) Sure.
Erika Forsyth (32:48) For this, for being on the podcast. (32:50) But it's something that you can do. (32:54) Honestly, a body scan is something that a lot of people build into their daily rhythm. (33:00) In the morning, you could take sixty seconds and just connect with your body, noticing if comments are coming up from the day, whatever feelings or sensations you have, and just connecting with them. (33:14) So you're not fixing it or doing anything besides just acknowledging them.
Scott Benner (33:18) Yeah. (33:19) Have that Mhmm. (33:20) After I have that after a massage feeling. (33:22) Like, it's not as big yet, but I have I have a little bit of it from that. (33:26) It's really it's kind of astonishing how putting your feet on the floor is really helpful too because Mhmm.
Scott Benner (33:31) When you started, people don't know, but, like, we're recording and I've been, like, really listening to you. (33:36) So I I had my feet up on, like, the bottom of my chair a little bit. (33:40) I crossed my legs, and I was sat way back when you started. (33:42) And I didn't realize you wanted me to sit up and be forward. (33:45) And as soon as I put my feet on the floor, I was like, oh, that makes it makes it feel different.
Scott Benner (33:50) It's interesting. (33:51) You know? (33:51) So that was great. (33:53) My gosh.
Erika Forsyth (33:54) Good. (33:54) Well, yeah, some some people feel more connected and grounded when they have their feet on the floor. (34:00) Mhmm. (34:00) But for some people, they feel more connected and energized when they tuck their feet up in, like, kind of sitting crisscross. (34:08) So just noticing and either way works.
Scott Benner (34:11) Whatever's better.
Erika Forsyth (34:12) Yeah. (34:13) And these affirmations that I read, I I do come from the book, and there are lots more in there. (34:22) But I think having, you know, two two kind of memorized mantras, maybe something to say to people who make comments that are not trying to be ignorant, but maybe land as ignorant. (34:32) Having that ready, but then also having an internal mantra like, know my body, and my body is wise, or my body is changing, and I am safe. (34:42) Having something to kind of ground and comfort yourself, and acknowledging how you're doing and feeling is also really helpful.
Scott Benner (34:49) I I chose the my body is changing and I am safe as my repeat at the end just in case people are wondering. (34:55) So Mhmm. (34:56) That was really lovely. (34:57) That's right from the book, the body grief book?
Erika Forsyth (35:00) Yes. (35:00) Those affirmations are. (35:02) Mhmm.
Scott Benner (35:03) Might sell a couple books because that was that was bizarre. (35:07) Listen. (35:07) As soon as we talked about it last time, I I ordered one for Arden. (35:10) So Yeah. (35:11) You know, put
Erika Forsyth (35:12) it on a good book.
Scott Benner (35:13) On our Christmas gift pile. (35:15) I I think
Erika Forsyth (35:16) So that is dismissal.
Scott Benner (35:17) Yeah. (35:17) Go I if you have time, I'd I think we should go into shock and
Erika Forsyth (35:21) keep going. (35:21) Yeah. (35:22) Let's keep going.
Scott Benner (35:23) Alright.
Erika Forsyth (35:23) Okay. (35:25) The second stage, but again, might not follow dismissal immediately. (35:31) But as we're talking about it, shock sounds like it is. (35:36) And this might if you're speaking it out, might sound like I'm overwhelmed. (35:42) I can't do this.
Erika Forsyth (35:44) This feels intolerable. (35:48) That also to me sounds a little bit like burnout. (35:51) Okay. (35:52) Yeah. (35:52) But if we're thinking about it from either, you know, original, you know, stages of diagnosis or at another point in in your journey with diabetes, it often will show up when there's no more room for dismissal or denial.
Erika Forsyth (36:08) Right? (36:08) Like, there's no you you've said I'm fine one too many times, and you are about to explode.
Scott Benner (36:15) Mhmm.
Erika Forsyth (36:16) And, actually, Jane calls it the shock is the embodiment of a reality check, which I kind of love that. (36:24) Right? (36:24) Like, you you've been kind of going, going, going, going, going, and there's been all this kind of these feelings that have been percolating underneath. (36:33) And when shock shows up, it can feel very overwhelming, very violent, and almost feeling like, is this is this the end of of life, or is this the end of what I felt like my life was was going to be? (36:46) And oftentimes, there's a fear of allowing yourself to feel shock that you won't come out of it.
Erika Forsyth (36:53) Right? (36:54) Like, if and that's why you kind of are trying to stay in dismissal or denial of, like, how you're actually doing or feeling because you feel like, oh, no. (37:03) If I actually feel what I'm feeling, am I ever going to pull myself out of this shock stage? (37:11) So this this kind of wrestling again, like, with is the shock is that diabetes burnout? (37:19) I don't know.
Erika Forsyth (37:20) But I would I would argue that it might look and feel very similar when you're just so overwhelmed. (37:25) You feel like you can't keep going
Scott Benner (37:27) Mhmm.
Erika Forsyth (37:27) And you just kinda wanna check out. (37:29) And with burnout, you know, you have all these feelings of dis of really emotional dysregulation and anger and rage and sadness and and just overwhelm. (37:40) Yeah. (37:41) And that's what shock can look like too.
Scott Benner (37:44) That's such a the the shock, it shows up when there's no more room for dismissal. (37:51) That that struck me. (37:53) Mhmm. (37:53) That was so it's just like a it's Popeye. (37:57) Right?
Scott Benner (37:57) What what did he say? (37:59) It's all I can stand, so I can't stand no more.
Erika Forsyth (38:01) Oh, nice. (38:03) Yeah. (38:03) Yeah.
Scott Benner (38:04) And then right? (38:05) Is that Popeye?
Erika Forsyth (38:06) I don't know, but I know that phrase.
Scott Benner (38:08) Yeah. (38:08) I think that I that's what it made me feel like. (38:11) Like, that made me feel like when my wife is like, I can't I've I've taken this shit long enough. (38:18) And I'm like, so but but so in diabetes specifically, you're dismissing, you're dismissing, you're dismissing, And then you can't dismiss anymore, and then you have to give it away. (38:30) And that's when it appears like you're not paying attention any longer.
Scott Benner (38:33) That's the burnout.
Erika Forsyth (38:35) Yes. (38:36) Yes. (38:36) And I think with with signs that you might be in shock, you're you you are kind of surprised. (38:44) Like, you're kind of blindsided by these intense feelings of anxiety, the intense feelings fear of the future. (38:53) And you might notice yourself disassociating more, like, with numbing, you know, with with entertainment, drugs, alcohol, food.
Erika Forsyth (39:02) You might be distracting.
Scott Benner (39:04) Okay. (39:04) You're
Erika Forsyth (39:04) you're maybe just scrolling mindlessly on your social media. (39:09) You're over scheduling, so you're trying to numb the feelings.
Scott Benner (39:13) Mhmm.
Erika Forsyth (39:14) And it can also feel more intense based on our expectations of life. (39:19) And I and when I say Jane, the author of the book, she makes this point, and I think it's really important, that we've talked about before in a lot of episodes that we are because of our culture, our society, we are kind of born into this mentality that this isn't how life is supposed to be. (39:39) This isn't I'm I deserve a pain free life.
Scott Benner (39:42) Mhmm.
Erika Forsyth (39:42) And so if that is kind of the narrative that you are living with, you the shock, the feelings around shock are gonna feel more intense.
Scott Benner (39:52) I see. (39:53) Because your expectation sense? (39:54) Your expectation is so big and not realistic. (39:57) And that is really a modern expectation, isn't it? (40:01) Everything should be free.
Scott Benner (40:02) It should work. (40:03) It should be there when I need it. (40:05) I should never be in pain. (40:07) I should never be cold or uncomfortable. (40:08) And if I am, then the world let me down.
Scott Benner (40:11) Everything's let me down at that point. (40:13) Yes. (40:14) Meanwhile, not that this is the conversation, but if I take you back fifty or a hundred years and then, you know and I and I brought one of those people here for a week, they'd be like, I would never complain about this. (40:25) Although, you know, in a month, they'd be complaining about it.
Erika Forsyth (40:28) Mhmm.
Scott Benner (40:28) Yeah. (40:28) Yeah. (40:28) Mhmm. (40:29) So what I I I have such a, like, a a side road I wanna go down. (40:33) It has nothing to do with this, I'll just keep it to myself.
Scott Benner (40:35) But but keep but keep going, please.
Erika Forsyth (40:38) Okay. (40:38) Okay. (40:38) Well, hold hold that if you wanna okay. (40:41) So the the the problem with the disassociating, it can work for a little bit. (40:47) That's why we we go back to it.
Erika Forsyth (40:49) Right? (40:49) Like, when you're you're blindsided by all of these feelings, you go into this numbing these numbing patterns to not feel these intense emotions, and you can feel maybe stuck in these patterns of being in the shock stage Mhmm. (41:06) Because you you feel it, and then you disassociate by numbing. (41:08) And then you feel it, and then sometimes you might go back to, oh, but but I'm okay. (41:13) Right?
Erika Forsyth (41:13) I I'm I'm fine. (41:14) I can keep going. (41:16) So those are those are kind of the signs or signals that you might be in this shock stage. (41:24) Okay. (41:24) So what what can you do?
Erika Forsyth (41:27) And she calls it the one of the the practices is the the shift down perspective. (41:32) And this goes back to that kind of maybe entitlement that we are born into because of our our our culture and society Mhmm. (41:40) That we we deserve a pain free, quote, normal life. (41:47) And so if you acknowledge that, it it might feel like a downer. (41:52) Like, well, maybe I shouldn't have that sense of entitlement, but it actually can become more empowering.
Erika Forsyth (41:58) So taking us to the diabetes lens, when we adjust our expectations, the kind of the shift down perspective of what our bodies can and can't do with with diabetes. (42:14) We that might feel like I'm encouraging dismissal of the pain or feeling like you're missing out. (42:22) But, really, it's saying, okay. (42:24) With with diabetes, I can do pretty much anything anyone else can. (42:29) But there are gonna be times when I'm gonna have to sit and wait for my load to come up.
Erika Forsyth (42:34) There are gonna be times when I have to wait for everyone while I change my sight, Or there are gonna be times when I'm gonna I'm just I'm gonna be stopped at security at the airport. (42:44) I'm just gonna it's just gonna happen. (42:46) And so when when we are operating from that, having more realistic expectations of what our bodies can and can't do, that is she's kind of suggesting that that is a place of empowerment
Scott Benner (43:02) Mhmm.
Erika Forsyth (43:02) As opposed to placing you and putting you back into this kind of either dismissal dismissal or the shock and rage and and feeling of, wait. (43:14) What? (43:14) This happened again? (43:16) Like, I got stopped at at TSA again? (43:18) Yeah.
Erika Forsyth (43:19) How could this be? (43:20) Now with that said, I also wanna highlight that as a teenager, when you're all your friends are running off to the corner store after school and you feel like you can't go or you have to wait and pre bolus or you say, screw it, you're gonna go eat the Slurpee anyway. (43:39) Like, there's there's there's real feelings in that in that space.
Scott Benner (43:42) Right.
Erika Forsyth (43:43) But the more we can adjust our expectations of what our bodies can and can't do, that is going to bring yourself to a place of peace and body trust. (43:55) Right? (43:55) Going back to that, like, trusting our bodies so our bodies can trust us to take care of it. (44:00) Sorry.
Scott Benner (44:01) No. (44:01) You you know, you've said a number of times as we've been doing this that it's that this this applies to everything. (44:08) I think that's some way. (44:09) And I the longer we talk about it, the more I feel like that. (44:13) That that this isn't, like, we can focus this idea on diabetes or on, like, a health struggle.
Scott Benner (44:21) But it really I I mean, metaphysically feels like a bigger idea that I don't have my my brain already, like, completely wrapped around yet. (44:28) That's really just kinda where I am right now going through this.
Erika Forsyth (44:33) Yes. (44:34) Yeah. (44:34) And I think the important like, this lens of body grief, I think, and the stages that are applied from it are, yes, focused on, like, what you experience when you're going through life and something happens physically to your body. (44:54) Mhmm. (44:54) And and you are gonna experience these stages.
Erika Forsyth (44:57) But I agree that, yeah, a lot of this can be applied to a lot of other things or a lot of these concepts.
Scott Benner (45:02) I just feel like after we're done making this series, it's not gonna be for months or longer before I start adapting what we've really said to each other and then, like, seeing how it applies. (45:15) I think I'm gonna see this in other parts of life in the future is what I'm getting at. (45:20) Mhmm. (45:20) You know? (45:20) Just it's it feels like a simple but bigger idea to me at the same time.
Scott Benner (45:24) I don't have my head all the way around it yet.
Erika Forsyth (45:26) Yes. (45:26) No. (45:26) I I agree. (45:27) I I feel that as well. (45:29) Yeah.
Erika Forsyth (45:30) Which is why I think this was the book is so great and why I'm feeling so strongly about applying it to diabetes. (45:36) And it just it does feel really significant.
Scott Benner (45:38) Right. (45:39) Yeah.
Erika Forsyth (45:39) For sure. (45:40) So in this kind of what can you do when you're in noticing that you're in the shock stage or if we're saying it kind of feels like burnout a little bit as well, I I love this tool of what can you do to feel one to 5% better. (45:57) So when you're feeling so overwhelmed, so either fearful, anxious, or or just burned out. (46:05) Like, what small thing can you do? (46:07) Not to, like, change your life, not to change you know, we can't get rid of diabetes, but what can we do to make yourself feel five one to 5% better?
Erika Forsyth (46:17) And those are small things like, you know, the warm bath, like asking for a hug, playing your favorite song, and dancing in the kitchen. (46:25) Like, something really small that doesn't take a lot of time, effort, or resources.
Scott Benner (46:31) Are those soothing ideas that aren't bad for you? (46:34) Like, because you mentioned soothing stuff before, like like doom scrolling and stuff like that. (46:39) I mean, alcohol, drugs, like, it really did open up a bigger idea in my head. (46:44) Like, if everybody feels like this at some point I mean, you know, the the instance of how many people drink to numbness is huge, right, in in the country and across the world. (46:53) The number of people who use drugs to to disassociate, who gamble online or, you know, I mean, the amount of people I've been intersecting with, like, who describe themselves as having a a a some sort of, like, a a masturbation, thing that they can't break free of or, like, sex addiction.
Scott Benner (47:13) Yeah. (47:14) Addictions. (47:14) Like, my my bigger question was this is unfair to ask of you, so I'm not really asking it of you as much as I'm kinda putting it out there is what happens like, we say those things like they're all bad, and I don't believe that they're not. (47:26) But what if we didn't do them? (47:28) Like, where would people be then?
Scott Benner (47:29) They'd still feel the way they feel, but without the because we're we're saying, like, if everyone was enlightened enough to have these conversations, then maybe you could process this stuff and walk through it. (47:40) But that feels fairly unrealistic to me as I'm sitting here talking. (47:44) Like, so Mhmm. (47:45) If everyone just stopped numbing themselves, like, what what would it be? (47:48) Would it would just be pandemonium in the streets?
Scott Benner (47:50) Like, would we be back to, like, the fourteen hundreds? (47:52) Like, what you see what I'm saying? (47:54) Like Oh, yeah. (47:55) Wonder where it would go.
Erika Forsyth (47:57) It's I think it's a great question. (47:59) And I think the the problem is that the numbing works. (48:03) It works. (48:04) Sure. (48:04) Right?
Erika Forsyth (48:04) Like, when you're feeling overwhelmed and you wanna disassociate with whatever your choice of disassociation activity Yeah. (48:13) It works. (48:14) Because the problem is is that is that all you're doing?
Scott Benner (48:18) Right. (48:18) No. (48:18) You yeah. (48:18) Obviously, you don't wanna just be ignoring yourself into the grave. (48:21) Like, be but if when you stop and even look how people's lives are set up with, like, television, for example, like, just take it big.
Scott Benner (48:27) Forget before social media. (48:29) Mhmm. (48:29) You get to the end of the day. (48:30) You you maybe you're disappointed with your job choices. (48:33) Maybe you're looking across the room at a spouse you wish didn't get married to.
Scott Benner (48:36) You look at your dumb kid. (48:37) Like, who knows what, like, you know, your dog limps, whatever is pissing you off. (48:40) Right? (48:40) You know, like, you know, let me turn on Archie Bunker's place and have a beer and get the hell out of this. (48:45) Right?
Scott Benner (48:45) Right? (48:46) Like, maybe that's and I don't know. (48:48) Like, it just it feels very it feels very human. (48:53) You know? (48:54) Everybody wants I almost said this earlier, then it just didn't fit anywhere.
Scott Benner (48:58) I said, like, well, if you if we went back in time and found somebody brought them up a hundred years, showed them life, they wouldn't complain. (49:05) And I said, oh, you know what? (49:06) They would eventually. (49:07) Because people are, like, hardwired to want better, which I think probably drives society forward in a really positive way. (49:15) I think macro, that's a great human trait.
Scott Benner (49:18) And micro, it's really devastating. (49:20) Like, you know what I mean? (49:21) Like, you you you grow up, you go to college, you learn a thing, you meet a person, they say, I love you, they actually mean it, you make a baby. (49:28) And then instead of sitting and enjoying it, you go, what's next? (49:31) What do I have to conquer now?
Scott Benner (49:33) You you you know? (49:33) And then you can't possibly do that. (49:35) You've pretty much already exhausted what's available to an average person. (49:41) You know? (49:41) Like, you've done all the things.
Scott Benner (49:43) Instead of sitting and enjoying it, you're just mad at yourself for not accomplishing this other faceless, nameless thing. (49:48) You don't even know what it is. (49:49) You just think there's more somewhere. (49:50) Mhmm. (49:51) Like, the desire for more keeps I think it keeps us alive, and it kills us at the same time.
Scott Benner (49:56) I hope that makes sense, or I'm not out of my mind, but that's how it feels to me.
Erika Forsyth (50:01) Yes. (50:01) Yeah. (50:03) The desire for more, yeah, can leave you feeling empty when you achieve the thing that thought you thought was gonna bring you all the pleasure.
Scott Benner (50:12) Yeah. (50:12) It happens to me. (50:13) Yeah. (50:13) Like, when I I I just thought I just got done telling somebody recently, like, I I I feel bored making the podcast recently.
Erika Forsyth (50:18) Mhmm.
Scott Benner (50:19) And it's not the I love making the podcast. (50:22) It's that I've gotten it down to such a a process where it's just it doesn't take as much as my time as it used to. (50:29) Mhmm. (50:29) And now I'm just like, well, what am I supposed to be? (50:31) Like, should I be out conquering something else?
Scott Benner (50:32) I'm, like, in my mid fifties. (50:33) I kinda don't wanna conquer anything else. (50:35) Like, I'm good. (50:36) You you know what I mean? (50:36) But I can't just be happy with it.
Scott Benner (50:39) It's and and that's a, I mean, a real basic idea. (50:42) But, like, when you're looking Mhmm.
Erika Forsyth (50:43) You know
Scott Benner (50:44) what I mean? (50:44) Like, when you look across the room at a spouse and you're like, that person loves me. (50:47) But, hey. (50:48) You know what they do? (50:48) They do this thing that I hate.
Scott Benner (50:50) And, like, you know, like, how how is that the thing you get focused on? (50:53) You know? (50:53) I don't know. (50:54) Don't know. (50:54) I think people are in trouble.
Scott Benner (50:55) Like
Erika Forsyth (50:56) and Thanks, Scott.
Scott Benner (50:58) No. (50:58) No. (50:58) No. (50:58) No. (50:59) But I think it's good to know it because then you can do things like this to I mean, that one to 5% better idea, that's an awesome way to think about it.
Scott Benner (51:07) You you know, like, being alive is what it is. (51:10) Can I make it 5% better right now? (51:12) I should take a minute and do that. (51:14) I I that just it makes a lot of sense to me.
Erika Forsyth (51:16) Which I well, I love that you kind of is connected to, the cognitive behavioral therapy, and one of the distortions is all or nothing thinking. (51:26) Right? (51:26) Like, I'm only things are only gonna be better when diabetes is cured or, you know, whatever you can we we we are often stuck in all or nothing thinking.
Scott Benner (51:37) Mhmm.
Erika Forsyth (51:37) And so I love this. (51:39) The one to 5% better tool kind of eliminates that all or nothing thinking. (51:44) I'm like, okay. (51:44) Yeah. (51:44) You know what?
Erika Forsyth (51:45) I can do this thing. (51:45) I can I can play this song and dance and see what happens? (51:48) Yeah. (51:48) So I think this is our yeah. (51:52) The kind of the the third practice, noticing if you're in shock.
Erika Forsyth (52:00) In order and and you're noticing that maybe you're you're disassociating, you're numbing, you're feeling so overwhelmed, fearful, anxious. (52:09) You have to feel the feelings, and this is it's hard because it is so easy to numb. (52:14) Mhmm. (52:15) But in order to move through it, it is necessary to feel all your feelings. (52:21) But when we're in shock, you know, historically, our bodies are are wired to create safety.
Erika Forsyth (52:28) So we are often trying to flee, fight, freeze, fawn, and move, you know, move away from the feelings in any way possible. (52:38) But in order to move through shock, you have to feel the feelings. (52:44) We have you know, we've done breathing techniques before. (52:48) I can go through those or not. (52:52) We can do do you want me to list through
Scott Benner (52:55) those examples? (52:56) Okay. (52:56) The five four three two one method?
Erika Forsyth (52:58) We've done yeah. (52:59) The five four three two one is the grounding technique that I think we recorded a whole episode on that one. (53:05) Other techniques so when you're feeling like you, gosh, I just want it. (53:09) I wanna numb or disassociate, and the other techniques are not working. (53:14) I know we we all know about breathing techniques, but they they are important because they work, and they can connect you to that feeling.
Erika Forsyth (53:24) So the three ones that I often, teach, the the five finger breathing. (53:29) So when you're holding up your hand, you're tracing with your pointer finger of your other hand up one finger. (53:37) And as you're tracing it up, you're inhaling. (53:40) So your pointer finger is going up your thumb, and then you're inhaling, and then you're pausing and holding at the top of your thumb. (53:48) And then your pointer finger is tracing down your thumb on the other side, and you're exhaling at that point and then pausing at the bottom.
Erika Forsyth (53:58) And then you're tracing your pointer finger up your other pointer finger. (54:03) Am I just I'm usually demonstrating this visually. (54:06) Am I saying this correctly?
Scott Benner (54:07) I'm I'm trying not to look at you so I can see if I can follow you. (54:10) I'm I'm on the right finger. (54:11) I hope that
Erika Forsyth (54:15) okay. (54:15) So then you're inhaling, tracing, and then pausing at the top, and then your fingers tracing down. (54:22) So, basically, you're you're kind of moving your pointer finger up and down in between your fingers and inhaling while you go up, pausing at the top, exhaling when you go down. (54:32) Mhmm. (54:32) You're doing this very slowly.
Erika Forsyth (54:34) And the reason why I like this better than just taking some deep breaths is because your mind you're interrupting your thoughts because your mind has to be intentional with moving your finger up and down the hand. (54:47) Mhmm. (54:47) You're feeling the sensation while then also breathing, which, helps your your nervous system
Scott Benner (54:56) calm down. (54:57) And the sensation's really nice because I think that's not a part that you get touched on very often. (55:01) Like, the sides of your fingers. (55:02) Yeah. (55:02) It's lovely.
Erika Forsyth (55:03) Yeah. (55:03) The side of your fingers and then in between the the do you call this?
Scott Benner (55:06) The crevice?
Erika Forsyth (55:07) The webbing? (55:08) Did you
Scott Benner (55:08) say crevice?
Erika Forsyth (55:09) Yeah. (55:09) The crevice. (55:11) Oh my gosh. (55:12) I gotta work on this to saying this audibly and not
Scott Benner (55:16) just Erica's practicing on us before she charges someone for this.
Erika Forsyth (55:22) No. (55:22) I usually do it with someone sitting in the room.
Scott Benner (55:24) I understand. (55:25) You don't have to be you don't have to be verbal about it when you're show you just show them. (55:28) Right? (55:28) In, hold, down, out. (55:30) I gotcha.
Scott Benner (55:30) Don't worry. (55:31) People understood. (55:31) Also, while you're laughing, the five four three two one method is something that I just suggested to somebody in the Facebook group last night. (55:39) It's episode nine thirteen. (55:41) So and there are people I've I've heard from numbers, a number of people on that episode, but one of them told me that that episode helped them get through the passing of a parent.
Scott Benner (55:51) So, you know, I I think it's a it's a great thing to know about.
Erika Forsyth (55:56) Yes. (55:57) Yeah. (55:57) When the grief is so overwhelming, I think, just looking at, okay. (56:02) What can I do for the next fifteen minutes? (56:05) And then you and you maybe do one of these breathing techniques or the grounding five four three two one, and then you ask yourself again, okay.
Erika Forsyth (56:13) What can I do for the next fifteen minutes? (56:14) Like, really chunking it out In place Slowly.
Scott Benner (56:17) In place of scrolling on TikTok or one of those other things that is less valuable for you personally.
Erika Forsyth (56:24) Yes. (56:25) And there might be a time and place to do that Mhmm. (56:27) To give your mind a break.
Scott Benner (56:30) A shutoff.
Erika Forsyth (56:30) But then but then so yeah. (56:31) And then, like so as you were kind of you know, is there a better way?
Scott Benner (56:36) Yeah.
Erika Forsyth (56:37) So perhaps it it's okay to to do some of those, you know, numbing exercise or activities. (56:43) Mhmm.
Scott Benner (56:44) Do you know
Erika Forsyth (56:44) Coming back.
Scott Benner (56:45) Do you know that the person, the guy that invented the doom scroll, he's publicly apologized to society for it. (56:52) Like, seriously, he you used to you used to scroll to the bottom of an app and you'd get to the end. (56:57) And he's the one that said, what if we just it never stopped. (57:01) And he says, now in retrospect, he wished he never would have done that. (57:05) So Wow.
Scott Benner (57:06) Yeah. (57:06) Interesting.
Erika Forsyth (57:07) That's powerful. (57:08) Yeah. (57:08) I don't even know who that
Scott Benner (57:09) is. (57:09) You'd have to look it up. (57:10) I'd literally just saw him talking about it the other day. (57:12) Uh-huh. (57:13) You know?
Scott Benner (57:13) And they were describing I was looking at social media, how it's changed over twenty years, and that it's not it's not really in any way the way it was. (57:23) It used to be like, oh, like, I'll go on Instagram and see my friends' pictures. (57:27) That doesn't work that way anymore. (57:28) Know, I'll go on Facebook and I'll find things that I'm interested in. (57:31) Doesn't really work that way anymore.
Scott Benner (57:32) You get delivered stuff now. (57:33) It's all about keeping you in there so that they can sell ad space off your ass. (57:38) Like, you know? (57:39) And I guess that in the early goings, that they realized that if there was something there, people would keep going. (57:46) It's almost like a slot machine.
Scott Benner (57:48) Like, your your phone's almost like a slot machine. (57:49) You don't have to put a quarter into. (57:51) You just put your life you put your life into it instead. (57:54) And so, anyway, it was just interesting. (57:57) You could probably find him talking about it somewhere.
Erika Forsyth (57:59) Okay. (58:00) Yeah. (58:00) That is interesting. (58:01) Yeah. (58:04) So we want Breathing breathing techniques.
Scott Benner (58:06) Yep. (58:06) I was gonna say breathing techniques. (58:08) Yeah.
Erika Forsyth (58:09) One other one I just wanted to say that, you know, there's box breathing, which is fairly simple. (58:14) You could also just look that up. (58:15) It's drawing a box with your or a square or rectangle, whatever you want with your finger, and you're inhaling while you draw up, exhaling while you move your finger across. (58:26) And and, again, let it letting it all go, breathing. (58:29) I also love, like, practicing that at a red light.
Erika Forsyth (58:33) You're just you're inhaling and moving your shoulders up. (58:36) Mhmm. (58:37) And then letting everything down at a you know, just kind of habit sharing. (58:47) That's not the right word. (58:49) Doing things at the same time.
Scott Benner (58:51) I do the double inhale thing to fall back asleep if I wake up in the middle of the night and I I get in that spot where your brain starts racing. (58:58) I actually had this happen to me last night where it was, like, two in the morning, and I thought I should just get up and start living start living again. (59:04) And I was like, no. (59:05) No. (59:05) No.
Scott Benner (59:05) Don't do that. (59:06) So it's like like inhaling, like it's like a certain percentage through your nose, and you kind of add, like, a sniff in and then slowly exhale out, but you kinda push it out. (59:16) Like, I I I to be honest with you, it's like a it's a Andrew Huberman thing that I saw him doing one time about like, he's like, if you if you have trouble falling asleep, like, try this breathing technique. (59:25) And it's just sort of like like, it's a double inhale. (59:29) Right?
Scott Benner (59:29) Like, the second one, like, you push and then you push out really hard. (59:32) And I'll tell you, man. (59:33) I don't know if I'm tricking myself or not, but knock on wood, it works for me. (59:38) So and then and then moving your eyes gently, from side to high side to side behind closed eyelids, I also find that really helpful for going back to sleep. (59:48) So, anyway, look it up.
Erika Forsyth (59:50) A good one. (59:50) Yeah. (59:50) There's also the 467.
Scott Benner (59:53) What's that?
Erika Forsyth (59:54) 467, which I'm giggling too with the, 67.
Scott Benner (1:00:00) Oh, oh, I was thinking 369, the monkey drank wine, but go ahead. (1:00:03) 467,
Erika Forsyth (1:00:08) not to be, yeah, confused with 67, which, you know, all the kids are saying.
Scott Benner (1:00:13) I don't even know what it means. (1:00:14) So
Erika Forsyth (1:00:15) we're Okay. (1:00:15) Yeah. (1:00:15) Yeah. (1:00:16) Okay. (1:00:16) The you're inhaling for four, holding for six, and exhaling for seven.
Erika Forsyth (1:00:23) You're a lot of people's Apple watches will guide you through that. (1:00:26) That's another good one. (1:00:27) Okay.
Scott Benner (1:00:28) Okay.
Erika Forsyth (1:00:28) So why why are we doing breathing techniques, noticing if you're in the shock stage, helping regulate your nervous system so then you can connect with your feelings and remembering that feelings are not facts. (1:00:42) They are designed to encourage you to feel them, to do just that. (1:00:48) Right? (1:00:48) To feel them and not let them drive you. (1:00:52) They are not facts.
Scott Benner (1:00:53) Feelings are not facts. (1:00:55) Mhmm. (1:00:56) What but we feel that's how it occurs to us, though. (1:00:59) I don't wanna keep saying feelings. (1:01:00) Right?
Scott Benner (1:01:01) The way I feel feels like it's a rule. (1:01:03) That rule makes it so that whatever's happening to me externally is being done to me now because it's how I feel. (1:01:10) Is there an example of that that you could use that comes up often for people when they think their feelings are facts?
Erika Forsyth (1:01:15) Right. (1:01:16) So I would go to the the cognitive triangle from CBT. (1:01:20) Right? (1:01:21) So that we feel like, our thoughts well, this is actually true. (1:01:27) Our thoughts impact how we feel Mhmm.
Erika Forsyth (1:01:29) Which impact what we do or behave and vice versa. (1:01:33) Right? (1:01:34) So but when we are allowing either our feelings to drive what we think or what we do, like so I'm feeling Ray, I'm feeling, let's say, vic like a vic I'm feeling victimized. (1:01:47) And my thought is either what did I do to get this? (1:01:54) Why me?
Erika Forsyth (1:01:55) Mhmm. (1:01:56) Then my behavior will be I'm just gonna ignore it.
Scott Benner (1:01:59) Okay.
Erika Forsyth (1:02:00) I'm going to versus, okay. (1:02:02) I'm feeling I'm feeling, like, victimized here. (1:02:06) Like, kind of like I'm a bit I'm thinking about diabetes. (1:02:08) Like, I'm feeling like, why did I get this? (1:02:10) I'm I'm feeling sad.
Erika Forsyth (1:02:14) Acknowledging, okay. (1:02:15) I'm feeling victimized or I'm feeling like why me or my thought is why me. (1:02:20) Mhmm. (1:02:21) Say, okay. (1:02:21) That's how I'm feeling.
Erika Forsyth (1:02:22) That's okay. (1:02:23) But I'm not gonna acknowledge that as a fact and respond accordingly. (1:02:28) I'm gonna allow myself to feel it. (1:02:30) So I'm going to cry. (1:02:32) I'm going to journal.
Erika Forsyth (1:02:34) I am going to, let myself engage in that feeling. (1:02:39) Yeah. (1:02:39) Like, punch a pillow. (1:02:42) Talk it out. (1:02:43) Seek, you know, a therapist.
Erika Forsyth (1:02:45) Seek a a safe a friend who you can process that feeling with. (1:02:49) Write it out in a journal, and not letting that drive your behavior of being raging towards anyone who will listen or ignoring your diabetes. (1:03:03) Right? (1:03:04) So those are all things that happen, and that's okay. (1:03:07) So letting instead of acknowledging, okay.
Erika Forsyth (1:03:10) This is how I'm feeling, and this is a fact. (1:03:11) I'm gonna let it drive my behavior. (1:03:12) I'm just gonna feel it.
Scott Benner (1:03:14) Yeah. (1:03:14) Okay.
Erika Forsyth (1:03:15) But that's hard to do. (1:03:16) I noticed I just I'm just going, just feel it.
Scott Benner (1:03:18) Yeah. (1:03:18) Just feel it. (1:03:19) Sure. (1:03:19) Well, I'll I'll tell you. (1:03:21) Just after doing those couple of breathing exercises, I feel more focused on what we're doing right now.
Scott Benner (1:03:26) I know it I I'm not making that up. (1:03:28) Like, I it's not that I wasn't before, but it's a little later in the day for me. (1:03:32) I was a little sleepy when we started, and I don't feel that way anymore. (1:03:36) I it's so much so that I looked it up while you were talking. (1:03:38) Like, what I I asked just, what is what are those breathing exercises doing?
Scott Benner (1:03:42) And it said it regulates your nervous system, amplifies your inner sensing, focuses your attention, changes your physiology, and and it's immediate. (1:03:53) It says it's portable. (1:03:54) Like, you don't need, like, gym equipment for it or a therapist or something like that. (1:03:58) It's something that can help you in the moment. (1:04:00) Mhmm.
Scott Benner (1:04:00) So I I I'm I don't know. (1:04:02) I I wish I would remember that more often. (1:04:05) I don't know how to remind myself to do that. (1:04:07) That's the the my biggest concern is because it I always see it help me in different ways, and then when I could really be using it, it's not it doesn't come top of mind to me all the time.
Erika Forsyth (1:04:18) Right. (1:04:18) Yeah. (1:04:18) And and it's something that we all hear all the time. (1:04:21) Like, practice your breathing. (1:04:22) Do some deep breathing.
Erika Forsyth (1:04:23) I think habit, habit stacking is what I was trying to say earlier. (1:04:27) Connecting these some of these breathing techniques with things you do every day. (1:04:32) Like, don't wait you know, trying to not wait until you're already into that maybe either panic or overwhelm to do it. (1:04:39) Obviously, that helps at that time. (1:04:41) Mhmm.
Erika Forsyth (1:04:42) But constantly integrating some of these techniques, whether it's with the red light or while you're brushing your teeth, although that might be hard.
Scott Benner (1:04:50) But before you get there, do it before you do it prevent preventatively.
Erika Forsyth (1:04:54) Yes. (1:04:55) Yeah. (1:04:55) Because you're building that into your muscle memory and kind of integrating it into your daily rhythm.
Scott Benner (1:05:01) Yeah. (1:05:02) That makes a lot of sense to me. (1:05:03) Yeah. (1:05:03) Well, I'll try harder. (1:05:04) I don't know if I I don't know what kind of success I'll have, but, I I mean, I've I've changed my cell phone and some other things.
Scott Benner (1:05:10) I think I could do that too. (1:05:11) It really just is like, even as I'm sitting here saying it, like, I do the breathing thing overnight if I can't fall asleep. (1:05:17) Mhmm. (1:05:17) And I know it works for me. (1:05:19) And then I get into a situation where I couldn't maybe employ it.
Scott Benner (1:05:23) Like you said, either it's too late. (1:05:25) But how do you know Erica, how do you know that you need it preventatively? (1:05:30) Because, yeah, I don't know that I'm upset until I'm saying something stupid. (1:05:33) Like, you know what I mean? (1:05:34) Like, if you would if if if five seconds before I pop off like an idiot, you'd said to me, hey, Scott.
Scott Benner (1:05:40) How are you feeling? (1:05:41) I'd be like, oh, I'd say I'm fine. (1:05:45) Are you so how am I supposed to see should I put myself on a on a schedule as the as the British would say? (1:05:51) So it doesn't happen? (1:05:53) You know what I mean?
Scott Benner (1:05:55) What would you do?
Erika Forsyth (1:05:55) Oh, I think that that is, how do you do it before you need it? (1:06:00) I think that's part of the just integrating it into, like, any kind of, you know, behavioral pattern so that your body remembers. (1:06:09) Like, so now you know your body remembers to do it at night when you wake up in the middle of the night because you now have done it a couple times. (1:06:16) And you have maybe found success with it. (1:06:19) So the more you practice during the day, even when you, quote, unquote, don't need it, it it is built kind of into your kind of, basically, your neural pathways of like, oh, yeah.
Erika Forsyth (1:06:30) When I deep breathe, I feel this way. (1:06:32) I feel more alert, more grounded. (1:06:34) My nervous system is more regulated. (1:06:37) So is that gonna also cue you when your your heart rate starts to go and people are making comments and you're wanting to to pop off? (1:06:44) Mhmm.
Erika Forsyth (1:06:45) No. (1:06:45) I mean, that's it's hard to do in the when you're already starting to be elevated and escalated. (1:06:50) But, eventually, the more you can kind of have that awareness
Scott Benner (1:06:57) Yeah.
Erika Forsyth (1:06:57) It's, I mean, it's it's hard to deep breathe when you're about to engage into, you know Yeah. (1:07:02) A conflict.
Scott Benner (1:07:02) It makes you it makes you, wistful for the time when we just punched each other and then it was over. (1:07:07) And so which I didn't live through even. (1:07:10) But and and I'm half joking and half saying that, like, we're, like you know, we, we, like, human beings, are learning stuff, building, growing, moving away from older ideas, and that continually happens over and over again. (1:07:24) You don't get to choose what part you're born in. (1:07:26) Like, you, like, you don't get to choose if you're the, like, six shoot shooters in the street part or if they're the just, like, we'll just hit each other to one of us thighs part and then you win.
Scott Benner (1:07:35) Or if you're in the part where you have to go to therapy and do breathing exercises, like, it makes me wonder, like, what's the part I missed? (1:07:41) Like, what did I just miss by being born in 1971? (1:07:44) Like, if I was born in 2040, like, where would people be then? (1:07:49) Like, because I'm not gonna know. (1:07:50) Right?
Scott Benner (1:07:51) Like, what is that? (1:07:52) Like, fifteen years from now? (1:07:54) I'll be 80.
Erika Forsyth (1:07:55) You'll yeah. (1:07:56) Yeah. (1:07:56) I mean, I'll
Scott Benner (1:07:56) be alive, but, you know, I'm making figure quotes. (1:07:59) And so, like so I'm not gonna be digging into the new things that's going on at that point. (1:08:04) I'm just gonna be, like, wondering how Drew Carey is still running The Price Is Right when he's a 125 years old. (1:08:10) And, like so, like, I wonder I I'm always gonna wonder. (1:08:14) I've said this thing a million times.
Scott Benner (1:08:16) I would give away the last ten years of my life to come back for a year every ten years just to see, like, what's happening, like, moving forward. (1:08:26) And I wouldn't wanna go away in the future because I think it would fry my brain, and I wouldn't be able to keep up with it. (1:08:30) But just for the next hundred years, I'd love to see it just a little bit here and there. (1:08:34) Like, how do things change? (1:08:35) I think I could conceptualize that at least.
Scott Benner (1:08:37) But, anyway, it makes me wonder this. (1:08:38) Like, this is the part you're you're in right now. (1:08:40) Our IQs are at a place. (1:08:43) Our our our emotional intelligence is in a place. (1:08:47) Our societal expectations are in such a place.
Scott Benner (1:08:50) This is right now how we're dealing, but it will it will change moving forward.
Erika Forsyth (1:08:54) Mhmm.
Scott Benner (1:08:54) You know? (1:08:54) There'll be a day you'll look back, not in our lifetime, but somebody will listen to this one day in a time capsule because these idiots thought, like, breathing was the answer. (1:09:02) You you you know? (1:09:03) Like, how come they didn't know about this? (1:09:05) Yeah.
Scott Benner (1:09:06) Yeah. (1:09:06) Anyway, this is I I I really love this. (1:09:09) I'm so glad that you found this book and that you're thinking about how to apply it for people with diabetes. (1:09:14) I'm I'm I'm thrilled we're doing this together.
Erika Forsyth (1:09:15) Thank you. (1:09:16) Me too. (1:09:17) Thank you.
Scott Benner (1:09:17) Seriously wonderful. (1:09:18) I'll talk to you soon.
Erika Forsyth (1:09:19) Okay. (1:09:20) Bye.
Scott Benner (1:09:28) US Med sponsored this episode of the Juice Box podcast. (1:09:32) Check them out at usmed.com/juicebox or by calling (888) 721-1514. (1:09:40) Get your free benefits check, and get started today with US Med. (1:09:44) A huge thanks to my longest sponsor, Omnipod. (1:09:48) Check out the Omnipod five now with my link, omnipod.com/juicebox.
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