#1741 Body Grief - Part 1
You can always listen to the Juicebox Podcast here but the cool kids use: Apple Podcasts/iOS - Spotify - Amazon Music - Google Play/Android - iHeart Radio - Radio Public, Amazon Alexa or wherever they get audio.
This series explores body grief, the sense of loss and mourning associated with an ever-changing body, including diabetes and other physical changes.
+ Click for EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
DISCLAIMER: This text is the output of AI based transcribing from an audio recording. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors and should not be treated as an authoritative record. Nothing that you read here constitutes advice medical or otherwise. Always consult with a healthcare professional before making changes to a healthcare plan.
Scott Benner (0:00) Hello, friends, and welcome back to another episode of the Juice Box podcast. (0:12) Body grief is the sense of loss and mourning that comes with living in an ever changing body. (0:17) And in this new series with myself and Erica Forsyth, we're gonna talk all about it. (0:23) Nothing you hear on the Juice Box podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise. (0:27) Always consult a physician before making any changes to your health care plan.
Scott Benner (0:33) My grand rounds series was designed by listeners to tell doctors what they need, and it also helps you to understand what to ask for. (0:41) There's a mental wellness series that addresses the emotional side of diabetes and practical ways to stay balanced. (0:47) And when we talk about GLP medications, well, we'll break down what they are, how they may help you, and if they fit into your diabetes management plan. (0:54) What do these three things have in common? (0:56) They're all available at juiceboxpodcast.com up in the menu.
Scott Benner (1:00) I know it can be hard to find these things in a podcast app, so we've collected them all for you at juiceboxpodcast.com. (1:07) If you've ever heard a diabetes term and thought, okay. (1:10) But what does that actually mean? (1:12) You need the defining diabetes series from the juice box podcast. (1:15) Defining diabetes takes all those phrases and terms that you don't understand and makes them clear.
Scott Benner (1:21) Check it out now in your audio player or go to juiceboxpodcast.com and go up into the menu. (1:30) This episode of the juice box podcast is sponsored by Medtronic diabetes and their MiniMed seven eighty g system designed to help ease the burden of diabetes management. (1:40) Imagine fewer worries about missed boluses or miscalculated carbs. (1:44) Thanks to meal detection technology and automatic correction doses. (1:48) Learn more and get started today at medtronicdiabetes.com/juicebox.
Scott Benner (1:54) This episode of the juice box podcast is sponsored by the Kontoor Next Gen blood glucose meter. (2:01) Learn more and get started today at kontoornext.com/juicebox. (2:07) Erica is back with us today. (2:09) We're gonna start a conversation about body grief. (2:12) This is something that Erica's been talking about in some of her public speaking, with me privately probably for the last I don't know.
Scott Benner (2:19) You think you're a couple years into thinking about this at this point, or how long has it been?
Erika Forsyth (2:24) We've we've certainly talked about grief in general and disenfranchised grief in various episodes. (2:31) But this specific term, body grief, I was introduced to through this book that we're gonna be referencing, about six months ago. (2:40) Oh, So we've been talking about it, yes, in this past few months.
Scott Benner (2:43) And you gave a talk recently about this. (2:45) Is that right?
Erika Forsyth (2:46) I did. (2:47) Yes. (2:47) At the Touched by Type one conference in Orlando.
Scott Benner (2:51) You felt like that went over well? (2:52) How did the audience, seem to feel around the conversation?
Erika Forsyth (2:58) I think and, hopefully, if you're listening, this is true. (3:01) I think they enjoyed it. (3:02) My I did ask a colleague who was in the audience for some feedback, and she agreed with my assessment that I was trying to cram in a lot of information in forty five minutes. (3:14) So that is partially and and and Scott had this idea for us to do this series and really kind of take the time to process and think through a lot of the the terms and the stages and the application.
Scott Benner (3:27) So Awesome. (3:28) So we'll jump into it. (3:29) Yes. (3:30) Yeah. (3:30) Tell me about the book.
Erika Forsyth (3:31) Okay. (3:32) So body grief is it's actually the book is called This Is Body Grief by the author is Jane Mattingly.
Scott Benner (3:40) Mhmm.
Erika Forsyth (3:40) And she has gone through her own journey of of chronic illness and and disability. (3:48) And so through her life story, she and she's also, I believe she was a social worker and maybe also a psychologist. (3:59) I actually can't remember her her credentials, but has worked with with clients and patients. (4:05) So through her own personal journey and working with clients, she created these stages of body grief. (4:11) And so we over the next we're gonna be introducing the the ideas and concepts today and then over the next few series going through the stages that she has coined and created.
Erika Forsyth (4:23) And then we will be applying those terms and stages and definitions and looking at them through the lens of living with diabetes.
Scott Benner (4:31) Awesome. (4:31) How did you how did you find her book?
Erika Forsyth (4:34) Well, actually, I was talking in my own therapy, and my therapist recommended this book.
Scott Benner (4:41) Interesting. (4:42) Because of your type one?
Erika Forsyth (4:44) Yes. (4:44) She said, have you heard of this new book? (4:46) It I think it came out last March or April. (4:49) So that's thanks to my therapist. (4:52) I was introduced to this book.
Scott Benner (4:54) You found it helpful?
Erika Forsyth (4:55) I did. (4:56) It it it is if you do decide to read it, it it takes a long time to get through. (5:03) It's kind of a you know, you pick it up and read it and there's some reflections in it Mhmm. (5:07) Journaling. (5:08) So it's it's a book that you can kind of take your time and and read through.
Scott Benner (5:12) Awesome. (5:13) Okay. (5:13) Well, jump right in. (5:15) I'm gonna probably, for people listening, be a little more of a more of a fly on the wall, like, oh, I have a question, person in this in this conversation. (5:24) So you're gonna hear a lot from Erica, and I I wanna let her get going.
Scott Benner (5:27) So
Erika Forsyth (5:28) Okay. (5:28) Okay. (5:29) Thanks, Scott. (5:30) I in our world and life, you we hear these thoughts, and you might have had these thoughts yourself. (5:38) Like, why me?
Erika Forsyth (5:39) Why did this happen? (5:41) Or if only I had eaten some something different, then this thing would have happened or done something different. (5:49) So that's the if only I had then mindset. (5:53) Or my body failed me again, or my pancreas failed me, or who am I without a working pancreas, or who am I without, you could fill in the blank, with anything within your body. (6:10) So those types of thoughts are what we are going to be kind of thinking about that kind of encapsulates body grief.
Erika Forsyth (6:19) Mhmm. (6:19) And so the actual definition of body grief from the book is the sense of loss and mourning that comes with living in an ever changing body. (6:32) So the sense of loss and mourning that comes with living in an ever changing body. (6:36) So to start off with, body grief is something that every human experiences because we all are living in bodies. (6:45) And it also can be very personal as we get into kind of, you know, the the nuts and bolts of it all.
Erika Forsyth (6:52) So body grief can occur when our body changes in ways that feel like it's out of our control. (6:59) It feels like we can't go back to the way things were. (7:04) It feels like it's no longer our own. (7:08) You might have that experience of feeling like, ugh. (7:10) Won't be able to go back to the way it functioned, the way it looked, the way it felt.
Erika Forsyth (7:17) And with that sense of loss comes this unraveling of your identity and your sense of self. (7:24) So this can happen when you get a cold. (7:28) Right? (7:28) It's it's not a big it can be a big sense of body grief and a small body grief. (7:34) Right?
Erika Forsyth (7:34) So when you get a cold or you get an illness or you have a physical injury or surgery, pregnancy, pregnancy loss, infertility, perimenopause, menopause. (7:48) I'm acknowledging those are a lot of maybe more kind of issues that that women face, but also men go through their own sense of of body grief loss too with changes in their systems.
Scott Benner (7:59) Can it So can I ask can it be as can it go from functional to just the way you see yourself? (8:07) Like, you know what I mean? (8:08) Like, could it for a guy, could it could it go from the range of, like, erectile dysfunction down to I just I'm not as strong as I used to be?
Erika Forsyth (8:15) Yes.
Scott Benner (8:16) Really? (8:16) Okay.
Erika Forsyth (8:17) Yes. (8:17) Yes. (8:20) While it can be something actual actually physical
Scott Benner (8:24) Mhmm.
Erika Forsyth (8:24) It can be the way the way I interpret it is that it can be also a kind of this mindset around your body and what you think it you felt like it could do but can no longer do.
Scott Benner (8:36) Okay. (8:37) Thank you.
Erika Forsyth (8:37) Yes. (8:38) That's a good question. (8:41) One of the important things, I think, to note is that body grief doesn't go away simply because we don't wanna feel it. (8:49) And we we might try and ignore it. (8:52) We might try and fix it.
Erika Forsyth (8:55) But the this I think the concept that our body grief can't be fixed, it must be felt, can be a challenging one. (9:05) I think if we think about the the normal or the the grief stages that you might be familiar with already around, for instance, a death, which is, they're either five or seven. (9:18) So, denial, shock, depression, anger, and acceptance. (9:28) Those are usually kind of the five grief stages, and and these will feel a little bit similar to those.
Scott Benner (9:34) Mhmm.
Erika Forsyth (9:35) We often I think when we think about grief, we think we're like, well, I just gotta go through the grief stages, and then I'll be okay.
Scott Benner (9:40) Yeah. (9:40) Think you pop out the other side of it if
Erika Forsyth (9:42) Right.
Scott Benner (9:42) That's what they tell you. (9:43) Right?
Erika Forsyth (9:43) Right. (9:44) That's we we a lot of believe that. (9:45) Right? (9:46) Yeah. (9:46) Just work the stages.
Erika Forsyth (9:47) But with body grief and and sometimes that might feel true, but we also know that with grief around the death of a loved one, the intensity might change, but it still it still felt that
Scott Benner (10:00) loss. (10:01) Right.
Erika Forsyth (10:02) And so with with body grief and as we think about with diabetes, it's it is always there. (10:07) We are always gonna be experiencing these little micro moments of loss, which we'll get to. (10:13) So the we wanna think that we can fix it, but we can't. (10:19) And we we try and tell ourselves, and you might hear other people say things like, oh, just, you know, just go ahead and eat. (10:28) Like, bolus later.
Erika Forsyth (10:30) Love your body. (10:32) You are beautiful at any size.
Scott Benner (10:35) Mhmm.
Erika Forsyth (10:36) Time heals all. (10:39) At least it's not cancer, or you are a warrior. (10:43) You are a t one d or t two d warrior. (10:46) Right? (10:47) Like, so we hear these things.
Erika Forsyth (10:48) And now those are all beautiful statements. (10:51) Those are aphorisms. (10:52) It's a new vocabulary word I actually just learned. (10:56) That are they're they're there's well intentioned. (10:59) They are true.
Erika Forsyth (11:01) Those are all true statements. (11:02) Right? (11:03) Like, we can be grateful that at least it's not cancer. (11:06) But when we hear that or we tell ourselves that we're trying to kinda fix or avoid the feeling of that body grief in that moment.
Scott Benner (11:14) Okay. (11:15) Is it possible that the harsher those statements feel to you, maybe the more intertwined you still are in that grief and that you haven't been able to process it or found a way through it? (11:26) Because I I do see people really rub up against some of those. (11:31) You know what I mean? (11:32) Like, I some people who, you know, call somebody a warrior and and there's a group people think it's awesome, and then there's somebody in there who's like, I I didn't wanna be a warrior.
Scott Benner (11:41) I wasn't looking for this. (11:42) You know, you always hear, like, different sides of the argument. (11:45) I wonder if your reaction has a lot to do with where you are in maybe the process that we're talking about today. (11:52) And that's kind of an open ended question, but it it's what I was wondering while you were while you were going through that list.
Erika Forsyth (11:59) That's a that's a really great point.
Scott Benner (12:01) Yeah.
Erika Forsyth (12:02) I think the the intensity of your response might vary, but, yes, based on where you are, how close you are to the that grief.
Scott Benner (12:15) Yeah.
Erika Forsyth (12:16) But it it also can hit just like because we aren't gonna go through the stages and be done, it it can affect you in ways that you might be surprised. (12:27) You're like, wow. (12:27) I thought that didn't bother me anymore. (12:29) And then all of a sudden
Scott Benner (12:30) Right.
Erika Forsyth (12:31) This person is telling me you can't eat that, or can or can you eat that? (12:36) Or It just hits You have type one, but it's not cancer. (12:38) I'm like, well, actually, you know
Scott Benner (12:39) Yeah. (12:39) And you get a reoccurrence of that feeling again. (12:41) Right.
Erika Forsyth (12:42) Yes. (12:43) I think that I think it's important to bring up these types of statements because instead of giving allowing ourselves to feel what we're actually feeling, We're trying to hold on to some of these truths, but they also don't give you any room to feel the intensity of the whatever the emotion is. (13:05) And I think the the t one d wire slogan, I think, is is, yes, so beautiful, but also doesn't depending on the time. (13:15) Right? (13:16) Like, we I will share you know, as I've shared before, growing up, it was like, k.
Erika Forsyth (13:22) You can do all things. (13:24) Don't let diabetes stop you. (13:25) You're gonna achieve all your goals. (13:27) And we hear that narrative, and there's nothing wrong with that. (13:30) That's a beautiful narrative.
Erika Forsyth (13:33) But when your child or yourself, you actually don't want it or you're feeling angry or you're feeling really sad about having it, if that's the only thing that you're allowed to feel or think or say, it pushes down these other feelings.
Scott Benner (13:51) Mhmm.
Erika Forsyth (13:52) But they're still there.
Scott Benner (13:52) You have to be ready to accept the idea. (13:55) Right? (13:55) You can't just it's not a thing someone just says to you, oh, you know, if you just, blah blah blah, then it'll all be okay. (14:01) You have to there has to be a I would imagine amount of time and consideration. (14:06) You have to be in the right headspace.
Scott Benner (14:09) You're making me think a lot about, a gentleman I interviewed the other day who, is blind. (14:15) He's not just legally blind. (14:17) He's he he put it as I'm in the dark blind. (14:19) And I I I don't think I've spoken to anybody with a better attitude in a long time. (14:25) And I just I I couldn't I asked him.
Scott Benner (14:27) I was like, how do you get to this? (14:29) You know? (14:29) And his answer was his answer was his his faith, honestly. (14:34) But I I would imagine it doesn't matter how you get there as long as you can, I mean, transcend the moment and ascend to that idea? (14:43) I don't I I don't know.
Scott Benner (14:45) I I I want you to keep going. (14:47) It just it may it is making me thinking about him a lot because he just was it he had he had described so many of these different, like, grieving processes and things that he lost along the way, but then his attitude, what he was saying, how he actually felt didn't didn't carry any of the what you would think was obvious anger or sadness that you could have in that situation. (15:11) So, anyway, I don't that Mhmm. (15:13) Why I brought that up exactly.
Erika Forsyth (15:14) He was on he's on his own journey of processing and getting to a place of peace.
Scott Benner (15:21) Yeah. (15:21) And he got there. (15:22) Mhmm. (15:23) You know? (15:23) But by his by his, you know, by his description, in my opinion, he's there.
Scott Benner (15:27) So okay. (15:28) I'm sorry. (15:29) Please.
Erika Forsyth (15:29) No. (15:29) That's that's good. (15:30) Yeah. (15:31) So as we remember, you know, the the definition of body grief, the sense of loss and mourning that comes with living in an ever changing body. (15:41) Mhmm.
Erika Forsyth (15:41) As we layer that definition over the lens of diabetes, we experience loss, these micro moments of loss. (15:51) And, again, this might feel really insignificant or a lot bigger to you based on the moment or the day or as a caregiver, how you're bolusing, you know, and with the loss around that for yourself.
Scott Benner (16:03) Right.
Erika Forsyth (16:04) So the loss of being able to eat, exercise, sleep, and live without thinking about the blood sugar do you and do you loss of even time as we think about it too. (16:17) Around do I have my insulin, my my blood sugar kit, my carbs? (16:22) And then we also might experience loss as we think about all the unseen aspects of managing diabetes. (16:32) We we are probably familiar with these stats around the 180 plus decisions a day, the 40 plus variables that we're considering every time we bolus. (16:43) The device management, you know, every time you have a pump or CGM malfunction or site change day or maybe even receive a comment about your devices.
Erika Forsyth (16:57) You beep in class or in a meeting and the heads turn. (17:02) You have the constant you know, the the stigma. (17:07) Again, we'll get into a lot of these topics throughout the series, but there's the stigma and misconception. (17:13) So every time someone says something that feels like they're trying to be they're trying to be compassionate and encouraging, but it just kind of lands as as ignorant, you might be experiencing that micro moment of grief, of body grief.
Scott Benner (17:31) Right. (17:38) And anytime any of these things happen, it's as if there's a small megaphone in the back of your head reminding you, like, something doesn't work right, and it's Yeah. (17:46) And it's you. (17:47) Your body doesn't work right. (17:49) And even if you can separate yourself from you in your thoughts and you in your shell, it's still you.
Scott Benner (17:55) Right? (17:56) So my my pancreas isn't working correctly, and therefore, this happened. (18:01) That's not my fault. (18:02) I didn't do anything to this oh, that that does give I've I've long I've long wondered a number of things that people, fight against. (18:11) One of them is how how vociferously you'll hear type ones make make the argument, make sure you understand that type one diabetes wasn't like a dietary or a lifestyle choice.
Scott Benner (18:24) And I always think, like, what why do they care? (18:27) But this is why they care. (18:28) Right? (18:29) Because then these these other impacts come in from the outside and then those that that would probably feel like attacks whether they're meant that way or not are felt as a reminder that my body doesn't do a thing it's supposed to do. (18:43) Contournext.com/juicebox.
Scott Benner (18:47) That's the link you'll use to find out more about the Contour next gen blood glucose meter. (18:51) When you get there, there's a little bit at the top. (18:53) You can click right on blood glucose monitoring. (18:55) I'll do it with you. (18:56) Go to meters.
Scott Benner (18:57) Click on any of the meters. (18:58) I'll click on the Next Gen, and you're gonna get more information. (19:01) It's easy to use and highly accurate. (19:03) SmartLight provides a simple understanding of your blood glucose levels. (19:07) And, of course, with second chance sampling technology, you can save money with fewer wasted test strips.
Scott Benner (19:13) As if all that wasn't enough, the Contour Next Gen also has a compatible app for an easy way to share and see your blood glucose results. (19:23) Contournext.com/juicebox. (19:26) And if you scroll down at that link, you're gonna see things like a buy now button. (19:31) You could register your meter after you purchase it. (19:33) Or what is this?
Scott Benner (19:34) Download a coupon. (19:35) Oh, receive a free Kontoor Next Gen blood glucose meter? (19:41) Do tell. (19:42) Kontoornext.com/juicebox. (19:46) Head over there now.
Scott Benner (19:47) Get the same accurate and reliable meter that we use. (19:50) Today's episode is sponsored by Medtronic Diabetes, who is making life with diabetes easier with the MiniMed seven eighty g system. (19:58) The MiniMed seven eighty g automated insulin delivery system anticipates, adjusts, and corrects every five minutes. (20:06) Real world results show people achieving up to 80% time in range with recommended settings without increasing lows. (20:13) But, of course, individual results may vary.
Scott Benner (20:16) The seven eighty g works around the clock so you can focus on what matters. (20:21) Have you heard about Medtronic's extended infusion set? (20:24) It's the first and only infusion set labeled for up to a seven day wear. (20:29) This feature is repeatedly asked for and Medtronic has delivered. (20:33) Ninety seven percent of people using the seven eighty g reported that they could manage their diabetes without major disruptions of sleep.
Scott Benner (20:40) They felt more free to eat what they wanted, and they felt less stress with fewer alarms and alerts. (20:45) You can't beat that. (20:47) Learn more about how you can spend less time and effort managing your diabetes by visiting medtronicdiabetes.com/juicebox.
Erika Forsyth (20:56) Yes. (20:57) And then you can get stuck in that stage of my body failed me. (21:05) And and you kind of bound and again, right, you're queuing up really well these great stages and themes around how do we what happens when we get stuck in that my body failed me
Scott Benner (21:16) Okay.
Erika Forsyth (21:17) Mindset. (21:19) So as we're kind of we you you guys know all of the the details of managing, whether it's for yourself or your child, all of these micro moments of per se of of loss. (21:34) It's not even perceived loss. (21:35) It can be felt as real loss. (21:38) They this whole mental load can contribute and become the terms that we've defined before diabetes distress and diabetes burnout.
Erika Forsyth (21:48) And I thought it would be interesting just to pause here and kind of review the definitions of distress and burnout. (21:55) Mhmm. (21:55) And when and I just kind of wanna think about is that our is diabetes distress and burnout our version of body grief? (22:04) Or because of that, do we experience body grief? (22:09) And that might sound confusing as I kind of introduce it.
Erika Forsyth (22:13) But the, you know, diabetes distress is the emotional response to living with diabetes. (22:22) Right? (22:23) The burden the relentless this is from the ADA definition. (22:26) The relentless daily self management, the prospect of or reality of its long term complications, the social impact, which is the stigma, discrimination, unhelpful, you know, reactions from people, the financial implications of from, you know, insurance, treatment, etcetera. (22:46) So that's distress.
Erika Forsyth (22:47) It's like this emotional response to living with diabetes that every single person living with diabetes has experienced once if not many times. (22:57) It is very normal. (22:58) And and and also the caregiver can have diabetes distress versus diabetes burnout, which is oftentimes just described as distress can lead to burnout, but doesn't have to go that way. (23:14) And this is more that the state, right, in which this is from beyond type one, in which someone with diabetes grows tired of managing their condition, and they just simply ignore it and for a period of time or or forever. (23:27) And this can look like having strong negative feelings.
Erika Forsyth (23:31) You're overwhelmed. (23:31) You're frustrated. (23:33) You have these thoughts that you're being controlled by diabetes. (23:36) You feel really alone. (23:37) You're either isolating because of the burnout or or vice versa.
Erika Forsyth (23:42) Mhmm. (23:42) And you're avoiding doctor's appointments, other, you know, planned things that are helpful for you. (23:48) So as we think about distress and burnout, again, I I just wonder how much of this of these two terms do we experience because we're trying to fix or ignore or push down the body grief stages and feelings. (24:08) Or is it all is it all does it maybe it's not even important to to understand which comes first or are they intertwined? (24:16) And I'm not posing these questions to incite shame.
Erika Forsyth (24:20) Like, if you don't if you don't go through the the body grief stages and feel your feelings, that's why you're in burnout. (24:26) That's not at all what I'm suggesting. (24:31) But I just wonder to kind of just hold that question for us to kind
Scott Benner (24:34) of
Erika Forsyth (24:34) mull
Scott Benner (24:35) over too.
Erika Forsyth (24:36) As we work through the stages. (24:37) Does that make sense?
Scott Benner (24:38) It does. (24:38) I am also really enjoying how you've taken this this book that was introduced to you for personal reasons and found the through lines to diabetes. (24:47) This is really this is lovely what you've done here. (24:50) Thank you.
Erika Forsyth (24:52) Well, thank you. (24:53) No. (24:53) It it's been helpful, for for me personally because I think one of the other things as you asked in the beginning, when we hear those types of thoughts or comments, are they gonna hit us differently or land us you know, land for us differently based on where we are in our journey? (25:14) I think that's one of the the beautiful things to have. (25:16) The reason why I really appreciate these terms and stages, not only does it give us vocabulary to normalize what we're going through Mhmm.
Erika Forsyth (25:25) Because we can feel like you know, I've lived with type one for thirty five plus years now. (25:31) But when something happens, whether it's diabetes related or not or a new complication or a new, you know, physical injury, you absolutely can go through and experience body grief in a separate way. (25:47) So I guess I'm just bringing that up that it's it's yes. (25:50) We can we're gonna be talking about through diabetes, but it's also really helpful as we think about our universal experience.
Scott Benner (25:56) And do you think this is a, kind of an exploded view because the diabetes is so, I I guess, ever present. (26:06) But this is if you you've had no contact with diabetes or or chronic illness, you're still experiencing this stuff, probably just not at the same rate. (26:15) But but, you know, you you said something earlier that probably sounded so simple, but, I took it deeper. (26:21) But you said we all have a body. (26:23) You you know, like and and everyone's body is changing and slowly failing or, you know, falling apart or however you wanna put it, like, as you go.
Scott Benner (26:32) And it could be something as simple as, like, I can't believe my heel hurts every time I walk. (26:36) And, you know, like and then that's I guess that gives you a little bit of the, I'm not right where I was before. (26:44) I hear people talk about it all the time. (26:45) They joke about it, like, well, I'm getting older so my back hurts now. (26:48) And then they just your back doesn't stop hurting, but you just give a give up the the fight on it, I guess.
Scott Benner (26:54) Go, okay. (26:54) I accept that. (26:56) But I guess there's that maybe not seen by everybody impact of that of that process of of having the the, you know, the the thing that fails, you having to get over the idea that it's ever gonna go back to the way it was before. (27:12) And these are for small things, they're still difficult for people. (27:16) So when I stop and I think about them, you know, on something big like this, my, you know, my kid's pancreas stopped working.
Erika Forsyth (27:23) Mhmm.
Scott Benner (27:24) I now see why people are so intent, some of them, on figuring out why it happened. (27:32) I don't know if they think they're gonna fix it once they figure out why, but some people are very intent on, like, why did this happen? (27:37) I need to understand why this happened. (27:39) And the word normal, it gets brought up all the time. (27:43) Like, big people are always like, my life's never going to be normal again.
Scott Benner (27:47) That that that that really hurts them. (27:49) And I guess it's because of the finite nature of it. (27:53) I don't know. (27:53) I'm just I'm just listening. (27:55) I didn't get to hear your talk in, Orlando.
Scott Benner (27:57) So, I'm I'm having a lot of fun learning about it now. (28:01) And you see I know we're not done, but you see this going forward as a series where we break these ideas down into smaller episodes. (28:07) Is that right?
Erika Forsyth (28:08) Yes. (28:08) And and the questions and points that you're bringing up, what what is exciting for me is that even though this woman wrote this book kind of in general, the the concepts are so applicable to the, you know even the question of normal. (28:25) Like, what is normal? (28:26) Yeah. (28:26) Why do we even have that concept that there's normal and not normal?
Erika Forsyth (28:31) Mhmm. (28:32) The why me? (28:34) Who can I blame? (28:35) How can I fix this? (28:36) Who's at fault?
Erika Forsyth (28:37) And I think before we go into these last two points, I thought it might be maybe helpful to just review the stages of body grief.
Scott Benner (28:45) Please.
Erika Forsyth (28:46) So dismissal. (28:49) And, again, she these are not like any grief stages, they are not linear, but we're gonna talk about them as you might experience them, but you can always go back and forth. (28:58) So there's dismissal, shock, apology, fault, fight, and then hopelessness and hope. (29:15) So within those kind of seven stages, I think it's important for us to kind of review these two key concepts that that she talks about. (29:28) And the first one that are kind of applied and discussed through each stage, the first one is called perceived body betrayal.
Erika Forsyth (29:35) Mhmm. (29:36) And this is the narrative that somehow our body has betrayed us, that we and we have all felt this, whether it's with our pancreas or something else. (29:43) You just gave examples, my back, my heel, my eyesight. (29:47) You know, maybe it's even your voice. (29:49) You get it.
Erika Forsyth (29:49) You've lost your voice, and you have a sore throat. (29:52) Right? (29:52) So and we live in this narrative because it's our effort to control what's happening. (29:59) It's our effort to control our body. (30:02) And she says that this perceived body betrayal is the core driver of body grief Mhmm.
Erika Forsyth (30:09) Because it it then places us and and catapults us into this deep disconnect between our body and ourselves. (30:16) So we're pitting ourselves against our bodies when we have this kind of language that my body failed me. (30:21) My body gave out. (30:22) My pancreas failed me. (30:24) And it makes it seem like you were just kind of saying earlier that we're it's us against our bodies when when it's not.
Erika Forsyth (30:34) But that's what it actually really feels like.
Scott Benner (30:36) Right.
Erika Forsyth (30:37) And we'll go into all the reasons why.
Scott Benner (30:41) Well, I guess it could also feel like you against you. (30:45) Right? (30:45) Like Mhmm. (30:46) Like, almost like, another version of you attacking yourself. (30:50) Like, because I I am gonna get stuck on this idea a couple of times.
Scott Benner (30:54) I do hear what you're saying about it's it's my body is failing me. (30:59) But there's another I mean, you are your body. (31:02) Right? (31:02) Like, I know you're not, but you but you I mean, in the context of, like, reality and the way you think about it, I don't know how you're supposed to separate those two things. (31:10) I'm sure you can.
Scott Benner (31:11) And I'm I I would imagine that people who fight with things like cancer or people who have had type one diabetes for a long time and appear to be on the other side of it now, I imagine at some point they have to find a separation between me and it. (31:27) I don't know if that makes I might be wrong, but it's it's striking me that way.
Erika Forsyth (31:32) So the this concept of perceived body betrayal, yeah, is a natural response.
Scott Benner (31:39) Mhmm.
Erika Forsyth (31:39) But the way it's kind of understood and articulated is that if we it drives the grief, and then we but we don't wanna get stuck in that because we're always then gonna be trying to find, well, why did this happen? (31:55) Who can I blame? (31:57) This is unfair. (31:58) Those are all really normal and healthy responses
Scott Benner (32:01) Yeah.
Erika Forsyth (32:02) To a perceived loss, right, or mourning and the change in your body. (32:08) But you're kind of what I wanna understand your reflection is can see. (32:15) It's natural to stay kind of differentiated.
Scott Benner (32:18) Well, it seems to me that, like, if if you're feeling like your body failed you, I don't know how you're I don't know how I could separate, like, the feelings of the body being me. (32:32) Do know what I mean? (32:33) By that, like, like, how how am I not gonna get to the point where I feel like I failed myself, I guess, is the is is my statement. (32:40) Meanwhile, you're not in any control of the the physical attributes that you have, don't have, how well things work, or don't, how long they last, or don't. (32:49) But I don't know how it I it's almost like when you see, an athlete get hurt and they're so angry.
Scott Benner (32:55) Like, are they angry at their leg or are they angry at themselves? (32:59) Like, that's that's what I'm wondering if we'll we'll get through and find Mhmm. (33:02) At the, through the conversation. (33:04) Also, I'll tell you that this I feel so I feel, like, very hopeful about this conversation because I do know a number of people who've had significant illnesses or have lived with type one for a long time who when you meet them, they really I I I would bet my life that they're on the other side of this problem somehow. (33:24) And if they got there, I would imagine that understanding the process could help other people get there maybe even more quickly.
Scott Benner (33:32) Right? (33:32) Because if we're all really going through this thing, I often think that diabetes is just like a mirror held up to your face that feels like it's fast forwarded. (33:41) Because we all get sick and get older and and are you know, and have more and more health issues as we go. (33:48) Diabetes just speeds the whole thing up a little bit, and and it gives it I think it gives more or all of it to you in in a short amount of time instead of the way that, I guess, nature intends it is for you to, like, slowly experience these things. (34:04) And and I I just think that maybe once you see them all, know them all, if you could process them all, maybe you could leave them all behind at least, you know, as much as possible.
Scott Benner (34:15) Anyway, I I think this is gonna be great.
Erika Forsyth (34:18) Yes. (34:18) And there there there is hope because there has to be, and that's, you know, why why I do what I do and why I'm bringing this this into our kind of, hopefully, our our mindfulness, our awareness that and I know you said kind of get on the other side of it. (34:39) And I know what you mean, but you are always kind of in these stages.
Scott Benner (34:44) It's not gonna stop. (34:45) Right?
Erika Forsyth (34:45) But gonna stop, but you're gonna have maybe more awareness and more tool practices.
Scott Benner (34:49) So that it doesn't hit you. (34:51) Maybe doesn't hit you as hard in the moment or you're able to process it
Erika Forsyth (34:55) Yes.
Scott Benner (34:55) More more judiciously maybe.
Erika Forsyth (34:58) Yeah. (34:58) Or and and process it and not try and ignore it or fix it.
Scott Benner (35:02) Right.
Erika Forsyth (35:02) Yes.
Scott Benner (35:03) Yeah.
Erika Forsyth (35:04) So kind of conversely from this perceived body betrayal concept, the other important one is called body trust.
Scott Benner (35:14) Okay.
Erika Forsyth (35:15) And this is important because our body and this might this is kind of hard to understand without gonna going through all the stages, which we will get there, that our body actually does not fail us. (35:28) And so she talks about body trust as this kind of reciprocal concept. (35:34) Right? (35:35) So body trust is defined as a two way street. (35:40) In order to trust our bodies, our body needs to trust us to take care of it, to be kind to it, and to nourish it in all ways.
Erika Forsyth (35:51) Right? (35:52) So there's this kind of back and forth between in order to trust our bodies, our body needs to trust us. (35:59) And this this concept, takes some time to understand what that actually looks like, feels like, and and in practice. (36:09) But underneath it is this mindset that our body is not against us. (36:14) It's not like, oh, I'm gonna go.
Erika Forsyth (36:15) I'm gonna I'm gonna shut down this thing and see what she can do with it. (36:19) Right. (36:20) Right? (36:20) That our bodies are always on our side. (36:24) And when we work through these stages and engaging in the body grief, it means that we get to meet our body where it's at right now instead of trying to ignore it or push it down or say, I'm fine.
Erika Forsyth (36:41) I'll be fine. (36:44) But to that's part of the body trust process is saying, okay. (36:48) Where am I hurting right now? (36:50) Or where am I not hurting physically or emotionally? (36:56) And just being present with that in the in the moment.
Erika Forsyth (37:00) Yeah.
Scott Benner (37:02) Well, you're making me think of all the people that I've interviewed who have, like, what you would consider to be, like, significant extra things to to work through Kate, who's been on the show a couple of times, you know, who's in a chair and, you know, even the gentleman the other day who's you know, he's completely blind. (37:22) He was even able to, like, forgive. (37:24) Like, he was diagnosed at a time where he you know, the insulin regimen wasn't great. (37:29) He didn't really know what he was doing. (37:31) He was misdiagnosed for a long time, so he was living probably with LADA and being treated for type two.
Scott Benner (37:37) You know? (37:38) And then, you know, one day looks up and sees, like, spots in his eyes, and the next thing you know, it's, you know, it's thirty five years later, and he's been blind for decades. (37:48) And he even told me that he had, initially, after seeing the spots, had a surgery, and he's not even sure if the surgeon didn't maybe make things worse for him. (37:59) And he still wasn't mad. (38:01) I was I really like, the guy somebody should study him.
Scott Benner (38:05) But, you know and and thinking about Kate Brim and and, like, her talking about I'll never forget when she told me about the worst thing that could happen is getting in bed and realizing you left a light on when you're when you're a paraplegic.
Erika Forsyth (38:17) Yes.
Scott Benner (38:18) And and I thought, well, what a simple little thing. (38:20) Like, we've all jumped in bed and thought, ugh, I left the light on in the hallway. (38:24) And, you know, and the worst thing that happens to you is, oh, I gotta get out. (38:27) It's gonna be chilly. (38:28) And she's gotta go through an entire process if she wants to go put that light back off again.
Scott Benner (38:32) And yet, there she was with maybe one of the best attitudes I ever heard in my life. (38:37) And and I'm I I've been trying to tell those people stories in the hopes that somebody can, you know, I don't know, take something from it and try to apply it back to their own life. (38:49) And, again, I'm just I'm very happy today because I think this is really gonna maybe, help that for a lot of people. (38:56) I can't I can't help it to to that keeps going over in my head while you're talking that that that maybe this thing that I've been hoping, which is I I'll just keep telling stories till somebody goes, hey. (39:05) You know what?
Scott Benner (39:05) That makes a lot of sense. (39:06) I'm gonna try to adopt a little bit of that. (39:08) Maybe there's actually a process of adoption that, that that would, be helpful. (39:13) I'm sorry. (39:14) I'm talking over.
Scott Benner (39:14) I apologize.
Erika Forsyth (39:15) No. (39:15) No. (39:15) That's good. (39:15) I'm I think that's a great way to to pause our, to conclude our our intro Okay. (39:23) With those hopeful stories.
Scott Benner (39:25) Yeah. (39:25) Well, I really appreciate this. (39:26) I I can't wait to get back together and and go on to the next part. (39:29) Do you do you have the rest of it laid out? (39:31) Can you tease it here a little bit, or do you wanna just let them find out the next time they see an episode?
Erika Forsyth (39:37) Yes. (39:37) I mean, I think we can review. (39:38) We'll just from this kind of introduction around, you know, what is what is body grief? (39:43) How can we discuss it and think about it through the lens of diabetes? (39:47) These concepts of perceived body betrayal and body trust.
Erika Forsyth (39:51) We then will move into the stages, that I can say again are dismissal Mhmm. (39:58) Which is I mean, should I just Yeah.
Scott Benner (40:00) Roll roll through them real quick so people know what's coming.
Erika Forsyth (40:02) Yeah. (40:03) Okay. (40:03) Okay. (40:03) So, yeah, so these are the stages again. (40:05) So dismissal, which can feel like denial, right, in the normal or the kind of traditional grief series.
Erika Forsyth (40:14) Dismissal, shock, which is actually another stage in the grief stages, apology, fault, fight, hopelessness, and hope.
Scott Benner (40:29) Okay.
Erika Forsyth (40:30) And so we will move and kind of discuss move through those stages and discuss them and then apply them to the to our, you know, life with diabetes.
Scott Benner (40:40) Awesome. (40:40) So this one will be called probably body grief introduction or something. (40:45) And then, you'll look for those those other, topics, moving forward. (40:50) And I really appreciate this. (40:51) Thank you so much.
Erika Forsyth (40:51) Yes. (40:52) You're welcome. (40:53) Thank you.
Scott Benner (41:00) Thanks for tuning in today, and thanks to Medtronic diabetes for sponsoring this episode. (41:05) We've been talking about Medtronic's MiniMed seven eighty g system today, an automated insulin delivery system that helps make diabetes management easier day and night. (41:13) Whether it's their meal detection technology or the Medtronic extended infusion set, it all comes together to simplify life with diabetes. (41:21) Go find out more at my link, medtronic diabetes dot com slash juice box. (41:26) I'd like to thank the blood glucose meter that my daughter carries, the Kontoor Next Gen blood glucose meter.
Scott Benner (41:33) Learn more and get started today at kontoornext.com/juicebox. (41:39) And don't forget, you may be paying more through your insurance right now for the meter you have than you would pay for the Kontoor Next Gen in cash. (41:49) There are links in the show notes of the audio app you're listening in right now and links at juiceboxpodcast.com to Kontoor and all of the sponsors. (41:58) Hey. (41:58) I'm dropping in to tell you about a small change being made to the Juice Cruise twenty twenty six schedule.
Scott Benner (42:03) This adjustment was made by Celebrity Cruise Lines, not by me. (42:06) Anyway, we're still going out on the Celebrity Beyond cruise ship, which is awesome. (42:11) Check out the walkthrough video at juiceboxpodcast.com/juicecruise. (42:15) The ship is awesome. (42:17) Still a seven night cruise.
Scott Benner (42:19) It still leaves out of Miami on June 21. (42:22) Actually, most of this is the same. (42:24) We leave Miami June 21, head to CocoCay in The Bahamas, but then we're going to San Juan, Puerto Rico instead of Saint Thomas. (42:31) After that, Bastille, I think I'm saying that wrong, Saint Kitts And Nevis. (42:36) This place is gorgeous.
Scott Benner (42:37) Google it. (42:38) I mean, you're probably gonna have to go to my link to get the correct spelling because my pronunciation is so bad. (42:42) But once you get the Saint Kitts and you Google it, you're gonna and see a photo that says to you, oh, I wanna go there. (42:49) Come meet other people living with type one diabetes, from caregivers to children to adults. (42:55) Last year, we had a 100 people on our cruise, and it was fabulous.
Scott Benner (43:00) You can see pictures to get at my link, juiceboxpodcast.com/juicecruise. (43:05) You can see those pictures from last year there. (43:08) The link also gives you an opportunity to register for the cruise or to contact Suzanne from Cruise Planners. (43:13) She takes care of all the logistics. (43:15) I'm just excited that I might see you there.
Scott Benner (43:18) It's a beautiful event for families, for singles, a wonderful opportunity to meet people, swap stories, make friendships, and learn. (43:27) If you're looking for community around type one diabetes, check out the Juice Box podcast private Facebook group. (43:34) Juice Box podcast, type one diabetes. (43:37) But everybody is welcome. (43:38) Type one, type two, gestational, loved ones, it doesn't matter to me.
Scott Benner (43:43) If you're impacted by diabetes and you're looking for support, comfort, or community, check out Juice Box podcast, type one diabetes on Facebook. (43:52) I can't thank you enough for listening. (43:53) Please make sure you're subscribed or following in your audio app. (43:57) I'll be back tomorrow with another episode of the Juice Box podcast.
Please support the sponsors
The Juicebox Podcast is a free show, but if you'd like to support the podcast directly, you can make a gift here. Recent donations were used to pay for podcast hosting fees. Thank you to all who have sent 5, 10 and 20 dollars!
