#884 Talking Online

April 7, 2023Scott Benner

Scott talks too much about the Internet and Erika is delightful.

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Scott Benner 0:00
Hello friends, welcome to episode 884 of the Juicebox Podcast

Erica Forsythe is back today and she's gonna say talking with me, but this conversation took a turn somewhere and I got very passionate, so I'm not sure how much Erica spoke. Anyway, we're talking about how people speak to each other online and some other online eccentricities. Like complaining about seeing other people wearing CGM or using GLP ones and stuff like that. Anyway, it's a spirited conversation. I invite you to listen. While you're listening. Please remember that nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise, always consult a physician before making any changes to your health care plan. We're becoming bold with insulin. If you have type one, or the caregiver of type one and a US resident, well, then I need you to go to T one D exchange.org. Forward slash juicebox and complete the survey. That's it t one D exchange.org. Forward slash juicebox. complete the survey. It helps people living with type one, it'll help you it'll help me.

This show is sponsored today by the glucagon that my daughter carries. G voc hypo Penn Find out more at G voc glucagon.com. Forward slash juicebox. today's podcast is also brought to you by touched by type one now this is a fantastic organization helping people with type one diabetes, it's an org. And they just want you to check out what they're doing. Hit him up on Facebook, Instagram, and of course, at touched by type one.org. I'll be speaking at one of their huge events later this year. Go check it out touched by type one.org. The podcast is also sponsored today by Omni pod. Now Omni pod makes the Omni pod dash and the Omni pod five. So there is a tubeless insulin pump for whatever you desire. The dash puts you in charge, it's completely manual, you make the decisions. But that only pod five, its automated runs off an algorithm with the Dexcom G six. It's going to make a lot of the decisions for you. Check them out Get started today at Omni pod.com forward slash juicebox. There are links to all of the sponsors in the shownotes have the audio player you're listening in right now. And at juicebox podcast.com. But you can always just type them into a browser. Hey, ARCA. How are you?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 2:53
I'm doing well. Thanks. Good to see you. Good to be here.

Scott Benner 2:57
I am. I think we'll jump right in because you're on the schedule for today. But we just decided last night what to talk about. I think we're going to kind of commingle two ideas together. I think I don't know where to start. Which Which of the two things do you think we start with?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 3:15
Let's start with on you know how to communicate. online. Online. Okay. Yes. All right. effectively and appropriately and compassionately communicate?

Scott Benner 3:31
Yes. I have no training about how to talk to people. I, all I have is that back when blogs weren't a thing, I had a blog. So I was learning to communicate with people I couldn't see. And you can say it's Oh, it's not. It's not that deep. But it kind of is like you have to learn how to talk to people in a way that they can receive it. Right? Like so no matter what you're saying. You're not You're not sugarcoating it, and you're not holding back. But you're saying it in a way that doesn't just light them on fire before you present them with the topic, right. And I'm sure as we're talking, we're going to come up with a lot of examples of that. But I learned how to do that the blog was pretty darn popular. So I'm people must have accepted my writing pretty well. When I went to the podcast, it's the same thing. Like you're I'm talking to a wall most of the time, or I'm talking to a person I don't even see. And you're developing a conversation that people can hear from the outside and not brusque, up against not be like, oh, you know, right. You know, I'm upset by this part of what you said or that part of what you said that's on purpose for me. Like real Scott in real life. Isn't this nice? I don't mean to other people, mainly to my family. I mean, but like, but I don't because I don't think about when I'm interacting in my purse. My life, I don't think about, oh, I want to make sure this is accessible to everybody. I'm more about, like, let me get out my thoughts and my feelings and how this impacts me and that kind of stuff. Anyway, it wasn't really until I launched the Facebook group that I really started seeing it. Some people don't know how to talk. They just don't know how to get their point across without making somebody angry. And there's a difference between doing it on purpose. Like some people run into a thread, and they're like, hey, and then they run out because they want to see the they want to see the fight, right. But that's not often what happens. Often what happens is people just see the world from a very like, me centric perspective. And I don't know if they put much thought into, how is this going to resonate with the person who's hearing it? And then it starts weird fights, that it's interesting where they go. So I want to start with how to talk to people. And there's probably nobody better to ask than you like, how how, and I'm sure this what we're going to talk about is going to be beyond the internet and work in people's real lives as well.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 6:15
Yeah, so I think, you know, in grad school, we learn a lot about communication in marriage and family therapy. And oftentimes when people land in my office is around communication. And one of the things that we learn is this image of there's a sender, as when you're communicating with someone, there's the sender, and then there's the receiver of information. And so envisioning yourself, if you are the sender, you are communicating like as if in a letter and you you've written your message, you're sending it in a letter, and you're not always sure how the receiver is going to receive that message. Is, is the receiver of your letter, so to speak. Has anybody had a horrible day? Have they had an incredible morning? Did they have sleep? Have they eaten, right? So you're delivering a message as a sender? Not knowing how it's going to land? And that is often what causes conflict? Yeah. In verbal and you know, in person verbal communication.

Scott Benner 7:18
And I think there's a way I think what some people hear, like, the more I don't know, I don't know what to say, there are gonna be some people that hear that and go, Oh, well, you're just, you're just saying what you don't mean. So it doesn't upset anybody. I'm not talking about that. I'm saying you can get your point across without everybody hating each other, and yelling and screaming and everything just coming up, like, like, octaves up. And I just think that that's I don't know why it's not a consideration. Like, why is it so important for me to say what I think that I don't care how you feel? That's a fascinating aspect of this to me. So I guess on some level, you have to be concerned with your audience, and how they're going to feel.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 8:10
Yes, and I agree, I'm not talking about the inauthentic with how you're feeling? Because that you can read through that. So yes, it is we are, we do want to encourage authentic, honest communication. But if you are not thinking about how your messaging is going to land, then it may never land. The point that you're trying to address. Or the point you're trying to make may never land. Well, if you're not thinking about the tone, the audience, how where are you in your emotional spin physical space? Are you tired, hungry, exhausted, stressed?

Scott Benner 8:49
Oh, you have no idea how many people I see start a post, and they're ranting and raving. But there'll be like, you know, at the end of like, I'm sorry, I had a bad day. I'm like, Well, then why are you doing this? Like what is like, if you need to get it out, go scream into a pillow? Why are you screaming on the internet? Like, like, just so they even know, Erica, they know they're like, I already know that my perspective is skewed because I've had a bad day. So I'm just still going to come in here and shut on the floor and light it on fire and watch all of you tried to deal with it. Because Because because that's what happens. That is there are some that everybody's personalities come out. Right. There are people who want to pick apart your point. Take the opposite side, play devil's advocate, there are people who get mad and just launch back with anger. There are some people who are and I'm assuming their parent, their parents were alcoholics. They want very badly to stop the fight. Right, like and so there's like all of that. And all these voices come together. And it's fascinating to watch none of them understand where the other came from. And, and, and it's fascinating to watch each one of them not care how it lands because it goes on both ways. You can see if you step back If you can see what people mean, you just, it's not what they said. And that's interesting, you know, and then when you try to reframe it can sound what's the word I want? You have to be able to try to reframe without insulting them, or making them think that you're going Oh, okay. But have you thought of it this way? Like, that's not the way to go? Obviously, this is going to be all over the place. I'm sorry. Yes. I've seen a lot of this.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 10:31
So Well, I think what one of the couple things that are lost in online and we're talking about maybe some of these longer threads right on in the Facebook community, or anywhere online, that's what's lost is you can't pick up the tone necessarily, although sometimes you can. You can't read the other person's facial expression, body language. And so you're, you're posting how you're feeling in the moment. And I think, just like what I would advise in person, if you're, you know, you're coming in hot and bothered and tired, all the things, step away, even right, write that post, write it down, don't click Post yet, take you know, walk away, take some deep breaths, go eat, go take a walk, and then come back and see, reread it. Yeah. And so is that really what I wanted to post

Scott Benner 11:20
because to your point earlier, if you're putting all this effort into saying something to someone, or writing something down, showing it to them, then you must want to get them to a level of your understanding, right, you're trying to impart how you see something. If you're, if you're gonna run it again, if you're gonna run to the room and light the whole thing on fire, no one's gonna take your point. And so if it's really important to you, then deliver it in a way that that will be actionable for them that they can actually stop and go, Oh, that's not a bad idea. You know, like, that does make sense. You can, you can deliver it that way. By the way, these things help you having 504 conversations with your kids schools, like these things help a lot, you know, they're not just for this kind of communication. It's it's every kind of human interaction, where you're just trying to get across how you feel. And I think that's why the fights happen. I think that when you try to say something, and someone else doesn't understand it, there's a level of frustration that comes up inside of you that's difficult to deal with, because you don't feel heard. And then depending on how you grew up, that might hit you really poorly. And then you kind of get lit up like a firecracker a little bit too like not being heard is is a trigger I don't use the word trigger not being heard as a trigger for for many people.

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Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 15:54
yes. In in, in, in person communication, you're able to do reflective listening and say, I think this is what you're saying? I'm let me let me double check. Or you know, are you saying are you saying it this way? You're saying it that way? And then you have an opportunity to to confirm or disagree? Yeah, right. And then on line, it's a little bit more challenging to communicate that way. But I do see people do that sometimes say, is this what you're trying to say? And that's such a beautiful way to say hey, I'm, I'm reading I hear you I see you is this what you're trying to say? And that can often interrupt, you know, intervene and interrupt the conflict and the spiraling of attacks that happen,

Scott Benner 16:36
though some of those are very good interviewing techniques to, like, my wife will joke she'll say, and I don't know how much she's joking. She'll be like, sometimes I walk past that room. And I think who's that lovely man interviewing that person who seems to be very understanding and want to know more? Because, because that's what I'm doing for an hour, when I'm talking to somebody a guy I'm trying to get how they feel. And when there are times where I'm motivated to tell them how I feel, or to offer up a parable. It's like, hey, well, what about this, you know, but in your regular life, it's difficult. And I, the longer I make this podcast, the better I get at being a real person away from this microphone, because you have to be interested in what the other person is saying. And it can't be judgmental. Like you can't be judging people while they're talking. Because when you do, all that's happening is you're coming up with argumentative responses to while they're talking. They say something like, well, that's wrong. I'll tell you, I know what's right here. I'm gonna say this, it's not a fight, you're not trying to win. You don't I mean, you're you think something, they think something, you all say it, nothing has to change. You know, like, and I think that's one of the one of the misconceptions is that every one of these interactions somehow needs to end with the other person changing their mind. And that's not how things work, you're offering up an idea, it'll get planted in their head as a seed and may or may not grow. And that's all you can do. Like, you know, you can't you can't run around changing people's minds, good information, give them give them your best information and see, you know, if they don't pick some of it up. Makes sense.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 18:16
Yes. And it will. And I think that, you know, we're we are passionate, particularly and you know, how we live our lives, the choices we make, how we choose to manage not only diabetes, but our our lifestyles. And if it's working for you, I enjoy it, I see and hear the passion in the comments, right? And you're wondering, this is how it's working for me, and I want you to be able to see it and feel it and live it this way, too. So I think oftentimes, the intent, and the motivation behind some of the stronger comments is because it's, you're passionate, and it's working for you. And you want other people to, you know, quote, see the light. But oftentimes, people aren't ready to hear that. And if you weren't recognizing that, maybe the tone is too strong. It's just gonna land flat. Yeah.

Scott Benner 19:04
And what you lack I'll tell you what, like banking podcast, all I'm doing is sharing how we're managing my daughter's diabetes, right? And I mean, it's gotten bigger than that, but at its core, that's what it is. I don't get I don't hear back from people. Like I say my thing and I go, Alright, listen, here's what I think. You don't need to think it. If you don't, I don't care. You know, like, but here's what I think. You can't do that in a in a face to face or screen to screen conversation because you say something, and then they fire back in. Everyone's always trying to be either you're in a good conversation where everybody's being like, light and supportive, and thoughtful, or you're in a crappy conversation where everyone's trying to win. Get a dig in. You know, be funny. That's the other thing. A lot of you are not as funny as you think you are like me, God bless you. I'm probably not as funny as I think I am but a lot of fun. A lot of you, and so like, but there's levels, there's levels of of that too, like, were that your humor doesn't land, or how hard it is to write sarcasm. You know, there's so many things, but I really do take your point about the passion. Because I think that's at the core of the of any low carb argument I've ever seen in my life is just people are like, I found this thing that really helps me trying to tell you about it. You're not listening, you're killing yourself, I know. And then somebody else will come in and say, Well, I found a way to manage with insulin perfectly fine. And my uncle and yours are exactly the same. And so you don't understand, you're telling me I'm wrong. Nobody wants to be told they're wrong. Nobody wants to be told that they're doing something wrong or thinking about something incorrectly. And there are only certain trusted voices that get away with pointing that stuff out. And for the most part, it's not a thing we can just willy nilly do between strangers or even sometimes? I don't know, even sometimes people you know, really well, I actually think that's harder. I always think about, you know, I grew up watching my son play baseball. And if your kids pitching, and they're struggling, you don't send the father out to talk to them on the mound, you send somebody else, somebody else who doesn't have a lot of history with them. And, you know, isn't quietly angry about something that happened a week and a half ago in the house and stuff like that. So anyway, I don't know. What do you think about all this?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 21:32
Well, I think that oftentimes, it might feel easier to express our, our passionate opinion, online. I mean, we talked to our children, our teenagers about, you know, being aware of online bullying and trolling. And I think one of the things that I constantly tell children is, you know, what, would you say this? Would you write this out? What you want to write online? Would you say that in person to that, that, that friend? Would you write that post? Would you write that comment if that person was standing right in front of you. And I think when we're in the heat of the moment, and we're on our phone, and we're wandering around, and we're reading the thread, and we're just want to put our two cents in. I think it's so easy to get caught up in the moment. But just to think, okay, these are a bunch of people I may have never met before. But if they were all standing in my living room, would I be say this, you know, saying when I say this in this way, and that's a hard thing to remember, in the moment, I totally understand.

Scott Benner 22:33
I just got back from a trip where I was gone for like, 11 days, this is like, the one time this year I didn't make the podcast for a week. And other people helped me with the Facebook group more than they usually do. And I wasn't looking at it as much. But I posted before I left, I was like, I'm leaving. I'm going away at my family hold all your crazy inside till I get back, please. Read. And time. In this is such an interesting thing to break down a person made a post, it was a meme about Plan B. And it you know, plan B the pill, like, you know, the the day after, oh, and for the life of me. I don't even know why it was funny. Like, but people told me it was I was like, alright, so I but when they put it up, it's easy to think, Oh, well, this is to stir up the pot, you know, but it wasn't that you really just thought this is funny. And here. And then it was diabetes related. Somehow I forget how. And I saw it go up. Because one of the moderators reported it so I could see it just so I could see it. And now I see it. I'm like, well, this isn't gonna go well. And my first thought is like, how does the poster not know that? How does the person who puts it up not know, at some point, this is going to go poorly, this is going to turn into an abortion conversation online, right? And then, but I always take the fact of like, let them be adult like they can. They're adults, let them do what they want, you know, as long as nobody's mean or blah, blah, blah. But man, it just went exactly like you thought, you know, four out of five people got the got the joke, and they were okay with it and weren't put off by it. And some people took it as an opportunity to say, oh, no, I have feelings about this. I'm going to share them with you now. And then other people come back in and share the opposite side. And then here we go. And the I think two things as the person who runs a large group, I think, how did you not know this was gonna happen? Because I don't think the person had that intention. And my other thing is, this group takes in 300 new members a week. Like, wow, okay, so 4050 people a day come in. I don't want them seeing you ranting and raving about Plan B on day one, because they're going to think that's what this is about. And the truth is, that's not not true at all like that one post is meaningless on a group that size That group gets 110 new posts a day on average. Wow. Okay. And so most people aren't even going to see the stupid posts. But the algorithm sees people going back and forth and says, aha, people care about this and start pushing it towards other people's posts. And now suddenly, in my mind, everyone who's been there knows Scott takes care of this stuff. This bush doesn't go on here. I'm not worried about it. But those new people might think, Oh, where am I? What? What asylum Am I in right now? You know, right? Because I don't think people understand no matter what side of an argument you're on. Yes. Sound crazy.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 25:42
And it just, it just feels like that meant that's probably not the place to have that type of conversation. Yeah. But I understand how and why it happens. And, and perhaps, you know, the person who posted it is a quick witted, funny person sarcastic, and thought this would be a funny, you know, response to your posts. And then here we go. But didn't pause to think about how is this going to land? And that's how it does happen. But obviously, not probably ill intent. It don't originally,

Scott Benner 26:11
I'm thinking back now on I think there was like candy, the plan B pill and something else. And the idea was, like, be prepared. And like so I think they thought like the candy like low blood sugars and like they the Okay, yeah. But still, you're just like, oh, dear Lord, like this is like, if you had to write what I thought was, if you had to run this page for a day, you would never do that. And not because I don't want the place to be fun or free, free minded. I absolutely, you should see this stuff i i Don't get involved in because I really do think people are adults, and they should do what they want. But like, I don't know, like, when you go back to a regular conversation, that big kind of blown up idea. It's the same thing when you're talking to your sister, and you're trying to get something across, it's not a good place to bring up something that happened 10 years ago, unless you're trying to be in an argument with your sister, right? And in that case, I say just be more honest, just look at her and go, I'm so mad at you for the thing that happened 10 years ago, let's talk because that might actually get you somewhere. I don't know. I don't understand why. You know, I keep hearing it broken down as people are, like, tribal or on teams. And I don't even think it's that. Like, I just think that people have a collection of thoughts. And they defend them, like very vociferously, like they defend their thoughts, because I think they think their thoughts are them. But your thoughts, like your ideas about? I don't know, politics, that's not really who you are. That's your thoughts about politics. And I think it gets commingled and then you feel like you're defending yourself all the sudden, you know,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 27:58
yes, and, and I hear people who respond there, when there's been other, you know, controversial topics that have come up within the Facebook group. And people can say, well, you can choose not to read them or not to participate. Turn off your phone, you know, and I think those are all if you are finding that you are reading some of the posts and having a visceral response or, you know, feeling offended, check in with yourself of how you're feeling and is it appropriate to respond back? Online? Do you need to go take care of yourself in another way? And just to be mindful of that, like, maybe you're feeling your your it is does feel personal? And and maybe you need to process that. And it might not be the best way to process it online. But again, those are I know, these are really hard steps to take. It's kind of your automatic thought and action is to respond back,

Scott Benner 28:49
right? Yeah, this just might not be a setting that's right for you in this moment. And I mean, from the outside, I swear I'm trying to have this conversation because there's two reactions. There's the like, flippant, like, human reaction, like Just leave if you don't like if it bothers you, but you're not putting yourself in their position, where they're like, you've now just let off every synopsis in the wrong word, like you're firing their brain up, you're like, Oh, my God, this is promoting something that I think is wholly wrong. Or, you know, I have to say something now I'm now I'm the defender of everyone who they imagine is going to see it. And even that's a funny thing about the internet. Everyone's not seeing what you think they're seeing. There was this thing years ago, when the diabetes space moved into Twitter at first, I think it's been long enough now I can make fun of people for this. So there were diabetes, people that got on Twitter, and they would have these like, like interactions online. Then later, they would report back. My tweet got 1.3 million impressions. And I'm like, why? 1.3 million people read your tweet, you've got 2000 followers, what are we talking about? You know, and then you realize that they take the 2000 number, I have 2000 followers. And each one of those followers has the amount of followers they have. So we'll assume that their followers saw it, too. So my tweet could have been seen by 1.3 million people. And then they'd run around espousing that that was the reach. And I think people believe that. Now I as a person who puts content in the world can tell you that if it was that easy to reach 1.3 million people, I'd be sitting on a gold chair in a gold room right now. And I am not, okay. So it's not that easy to reach people, you are not talking to as many people as you think you are. And when you post something that gets 100 likes on it, I want you to know, 100 is a very small number. There are billions of people on the planet, you in your in a group with 40,000 people, and you got confirmation from 100 of them, you have statistically reached none of them. And but people have this feeling online, like my voice is carrying. And I'm impacting people, and I don't think people realize they're not they're not, I have a huge reach online, and I am not impacting as many people as you think I am. So you on your private Facebook group, we're talking to yourself and your old neighbor, some guy from high school. So good luck.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 31:35
Yeah, I feel like if, if that maybe people do find, you know, we know that people find value in numbers. And are they impart that they're valuable based on how many likes how many repos? How many shares? And if that is where you find value, that's okay. But also, conversely, you are valuable, I would say, you notice that you're valuable, even without all of those likes, and perhaps maybe kind of reevaluate. Why, what are you saying and why? And what are you getting out of it?

Scott Benner 32:16
Yeah, I don't mean to say that they're wrong. I mean, by say that they're not changing the world the way they think they are. We have a whole generation of kids who think they're advocates, because they have an Instagram, like, You're not helping anyone get nice try, like, like your your post that reached 500 people is not going to change a company. I know you think it's going to it isn't going to, but it doesn't mean your thoughts are wrong, or that you shouldn't live your life that way. Teach your children that way. Speak to people that way, where that are that what you're saying is not incredibly valuable? Like you're just I mean, think of all the good things in the world that we can all agree with. Clean water is a great example, right? We all know that. Okay. How come it doesn't happen? I mean, you all have an Instagram, have you not said something about it? How come how come the people in Flint, Michigan aren't swimming and great? Well, it's because that's not how this works. And, but people get stuck in the idea, especially now that social media is in everybody's hand that like I have real power here. And you just you do your power within your own life, you know, and you can I hate to say this, like, act locally, and maybe that will grow. But I don't know, you're not. There was that one moment in social media, where you could scare a company in two seconds. You could have a bad a bad vacation or something. And you could get on Twitter and go, Hey, you guys, you know, baba, baba, bah. And the company would literally like find you and call you and be like, we're so sorry. If you take that tweet down. We will be like this. Now nobody even they don't even do that anymore. Like, I don't know how to tell you like most companies. The way most companies handle, people who are upset with them online is just ignored away. They don't really do anything about it. And how was that? How was that what happens? That's what happens because what they learned is your tweet, your Facebook thing, your Instagram thing, it really doesn't. It doesn't hit hard enough to make a problem for them.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 34:19
So the ripple effect isn't as significant as you think it is.

Scott Benner 34:23
And so while you're busy online, or in your own family ranting and raving about something, you've really just kind of solid the relationship you have with these very Pete these close people who are with these 50 people who saw your post or the seven or eight people in a room with you. You're not You're not doing what you think you're doing. But you could be and that's what we talked about earlier. You absolutely could be impacting people differently if you found a better way to deliver what you were saying. And I just I hope people think about that, like the delivery person, you know,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 34:58
and I think in that day livery. And I see people do this in the threads as well is remind if it gets kind of out of hand and out of control. Someone will come in, you know, either the peacemaker or the reminder of like, well, let's go back to the topic. That's the the first post, because it's really easy to get caught up in the discussion. And it's law, you know, the very first point or question or comment is lost. And so that would be maybe something helpful to do as well. If you're wanting to engage in a conversation or comment, go back to the original post to see, you know, what, what was this person asking? And I think we've talked about this before, as well as when you are the first poster in a comment. Or asking for to be very clear with what you're needing as well, because sometimes it is venting, sometimes it is seeking, you know, clarification or seeking questions. And you can even lead with that, like, just looking for some validation, or really looking for some new ideas on how to treat lows in this specific area of my child's life. You know,

Scott Benner 36:06
it's all very doable as well, like, you have to be patient and listen, take it from me. I, my Facebook group is one of the largest groups for diabetes in Facebook, and it is it easily one of the most active if not the most active one. And it's also what most people describe as a nice situation to be yes, I did that on purpose. I built that that way on purpose. And then I introduced other things, I have blended together, people who eat all different kinds of ways. In one diabetes Facebook group, not seen anywhere else. There's low carb, there's vegetarian face diet, but not me. I'm like you got diabetes, forget type one or type two, you come on in here, I don't give a crap how you eat, you're allowed to talk in here. I brought type twos together with type ones. And nobody's done that. I've been around this space for 20 years, you people wouldn't say type one and type two diabetes in the same sentence level in the same paragraph. Because what what were they afraid of? Type ones would say, Well, I don't want to be categorized as type two, because those people did it to themselves, which isn't even true. And yeah, and then. And then the type twos would be like, Well, I don't want to be about them. They use insulin, they're really sick. That's the bad kind. The like, then they started using words like the bad kind of diabetes for this one. Like, in sadly the worst kind. Yeah, that was prevalent, and still is not my space. Because I set it up not to be that way I set expectations. People follow those expectations. When people fall outside of the line of them. I don't ban their account. I don't like I write in public. I respond back, I don't DM anybody, you try to DM me, you're not hearing back from me. I'm not getting involved in your crazy yelling and screaming. But online, I'll say listen, here's here's what I'm seeing. You seem like you are very passionate about this. And I think this might be why is that right? And but can you also see that this person seems very passionate about it, too. And I think they have their own reasons. And you guys can share information with each other without yelling at each other without telling each other, you're wrong. Because you're both right. And this conversation is important that people come by and say what are you going to delete it, not going to delete it, it's valuable. And the other thing you don't realize is that the 10 or 20, or 50, people that are commenting in a post are again, the very small minority of people who are actually seeing it. And most people, it's sort of like talking about politics. We focus on the right and the left, and we ignore everybody in the middle who basically agrees. And that happens online to like the people who you know, not don't think of it just right and left but from, you know, polar opposite perspectives. And mostly everybody's like, Oh, that lady makes a good point. But she's a little weird. And that guy makes a good point. But I don't like the way he said it. And by the way, that's also very much something I've noticed too is that men can be taken as harsh when they're not being harsh. And I'm I'm, I used to be a current I used to communicate and current language, but not current embed just short and factual and to the point, and you can read it as it and guess what I did? And how rude. Yeah, guess what I did? I stopped writing like that. Because I wanted people to hear what I was saying. I knew I didn't mean anything bad by it. And there'd be other men that would come in and say no, you're misunderstanding. He's saying this. And they like Well, that's not how it makes me feel. And I'll tell you, that's a frustrating thing to hear. than to hear that you've said something in a very to you is a very clear and concise way. But then another person heard it and it made them up said, I'm upset by that, like, oh my god, I made you upset. Like, I'm just trying to, like lay this out factually, and get out of here because I don't have a lot of time to sit and like, I'm the I'm the guy making the pocket. I'm kind of busy. And it's like, so like, I'm trying to come in and say a thing. And I don't, I don't know, like, so what I learned was, I'm not writing to communicate exactly what I think when my brain says the words, I'm writing to communicate what I feel, and what I'm trying to impart and the bigger picture, it just you turn into a teacher, when you're, when you're communicating that way, I guess.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 40:35
And over time, you have learned in practice that right you have developed that skill, it's it is it is a skill to communicate authentically, to a broader audience who can understand what you're saying and receive it, it is a learned skill,

Scott Benner 40:50
it took me a long time to build up to where it is, and I'm not, I'm still not great, like amazing at it. But I'm much much better at the when I started. It also like you probably seem like once or twice a year, somebody will get out of hand, I get angry about certain things I don't like companies selling their crap to people. And that kind of stuff. And people trying to slip in and slip in links to things and if I get upset about that, and I will like be more authoritative when I come back. But I'm between you, me and everybody who's listening. That's the razor's edge of my anger. Like, if I let my whole anger out, you'd be like, Oh, my God. And I'm articulate and know how to write and how to communicate, like I could be. I could be piercing if I wanted to be like, I could knock you over out of your chair, if I wanted to be, I don't want to do that. If that's not my intention, or my desire, or my thought, but I don't know that intention, desire and thought gets involved, when people are arguing, I think they just reached down as far into their bag of horrors, they can pull out a handful of it and throw it forward. And I guess that's a different consideration, right? Like, when you when you aren't actually interested in communicating, you actually are interested in hurting somebody when you see that, just ignore it. And yeah, I'll tell you to, from from, from a lot of experience, those people, they come around eventually, some of them but most of them disappear before they come around. And just just telling your Facebook feed, like I don't want to see from that person might be a good idea. You know, yeah, so

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 42:29
you can set obviously emotional and physical boundaries around people in your life like that, and and on mine. And I will say, you know, conversely, going back to the point the community that you have created, from when I do read lots of threads. The majority are kind and supportive. Yeah. And and, and will advocate an intervene when it feels like things are spiraling, you know, other other members.

Scott Benner 42:55
Oh, I see them. I'm like, Yeah, manage the threads

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 42:59
self managed. Exactly. And I think that's why it has been such a success. And when people do feel safe, and supported and go there for support, ideas, interventions,

Scott Benner 43:11
I wouldn't want to give the impression that it's like, it's like the Wild West, like, I mean, I don't know the exact number. But overwhelmingly, 99.9% of that group is just lovely people helping each other. But every once in a while someone's like, Hey, you shouldn't eat this. And I'm like, Ah, and even that I've quelled. It took me two years to get out the like, we do not tell people how to eat, when, like, if you do not tell people how to eat in this group, it took me two years, and I'm telling you, it's good now, like we've fixed it, like it's, it runs smoothly.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 43:47
It's been it's been normalized that, you know, you can eat the way you want to eat, but you don't have to, you know, inform and advocate others to do to say, Yeah, you

Scott Benner 43:55
don't have to, and by the way, because there's no good way to do it. Like, what are you gonna say to somebody you don't think they know, you know, your genius is gonna, like turn the light on over their head. They know, they got a hand in the burrito bag, they're upset with themselves, they already know. They're like, I shouldn't be doing this. And here, it isn't happening anyway, you coming along and telling them how you went low carb and look at me and pulling up your shirt and showing your abs and stuff like that, hey, helping anybody. I've also changed the flow of how people think about succeed, about celebrating successes with their diabetes. That used to be a very frowned upon thing in the group. I've always maintained that people's success should act as hope and guidance, and that you need them to come up and say, hey, look what I did. I used to be a seven and a half. I'm a 5.2. Now, I think you should see that and think I might be able to do that too. I don't just think you should think that I offer you episodes to listen to so that you can go try to accomplish that on your own. And I don't know how many people who would have have accepted unhealthy lives are now living better because of that. And that is the thing that the diabetes community in general stood firmly behind not doing for years. Never tell people if you're doing well, don't show them a good graph, don't show them a good number, you're gonna make them feel bad. And I thought, why can't we make them feel hopeful?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 45:22
So yes, I want I love that reframe so that if you are listening to this now, and you're seeing somebody say, my agency went from, you know, a nine to a six, or whatever it is, that if you see that and feel either ashamed, or hopeless, that's also feedback to say, what do you need to do? Do you need help managing the diabetes, you need help with your thoughts and emotions and how you're seeing that data. But that is the motivation behind sharing that is hope and not to shame.

Scott Benner 45:56
That's why I asked people to, to leave reviews of the podcast, because then I can use them in social media. Like when you come along, you say, I'm 53 years old, I've had diabetes for 25 years. And I started listening this podcast last year. And this this and this has happened now. That's amazing. Like, I'm reading a note right before you and I got on from a type two, who was like, Thank you for making this type two Pro Tip series. I've been up all night listening to this. And you have exactly encapsulated how I feel and all the guilt and the shame that I have from this. And I'm going to do about it like that kind of stuff. Like that's big stuff. And, but you'll notice I didn't do it by getting online and going who rose the boat, you roll a boat, go for a run. You're on? Yeah, like I noticed this the other day, I just time or am I going to take you? Yes. Okay, now we're good. We're good. Okay. It occurred to me the other day, in the last five or six years, podcasts from very healthy fit, often, like military guys have become incredibly popular, like they are very, very popular. And I am not saying by any stretch of the imagination that exercising is not what you should be doing. We should all be exercising, and probably a lot of us more than we are. My point is, with the popularity of all this stuff. How come I don't see people getting thinner? Why don't I see people healthier? Why am I see more guys running around 10 miles a day? Like, yes, it's interesting to listen to. And it might feel very motivational. But if a year and a half later, you still have 30 pounds to lose, then the guy screaming and yelling at you and the podcast didn't help you made you feel better for a little while, because you're like, Oh, I'm gonna do this. Except he can do it because it's his job. And you work at IBM, and you're sitting on your ass for nine hours. And you can't go outside at four in the morning and go for a 20 mile run. Right, like so. I understand why they're popular. But I don't know why we don't stop back and look and go. Yeah, but they're not really helping that many people. And, or else, I mean, that popularity should have shifted into mass change. And it didn't, they're reaching millions of people. And yet every time I turn on the TV, that's not the case of what's going on, right? I've always taken that perspective with the podcast, which is it needs to help you not like that was one of my first founding thoughts about this. Like when I was writing a blog, I was like, it doesn't matter. Like, like, Yes, I can write a blog post and say, hey, my daughter's blood sugar was low tomorrow morning. And that sucked. And here's how I feel. And then other people see that and they go, Oh, that happens to me too. And I know there's value in that, like I absolutely do. But I just kept thinking like, Wouldn't it be better if you weren't low at 2am? Like, why don't we get to that part? Why don't we start talking to people about how to actually not what they should be doing, or what the right thing to do would be, but a thing that would actually move them towards a better place. And that maybe they could then make their own motivation and their own. Force that in so you don't need somebody yelling at you to get up at? I don't know,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 49:03
do whatever. And that might work for some people, but not most. Yeah.

Scott Benner 49:06
And listen, I'm not I am also saying I'm sure it's helped some people and God bless. Terrific. But you know, I know me. And like and, and I think that there's a way again, you're not just getting on and saying do this. Like here I am again today to tell you these are the right things. If you do these things, you'll be okay blah, blah, I tell a story, this the story of this lady and how it happened to her. And here's the guy that happened him and a little kid and a mom and a 50 year old and a 14 until you can hear so many stories that you think I could be one of those people. I probably have one of those people like what is this? They're doing that I'm not doing this so my my point again about talking to people is communication is not for telling people how to think communication is for sharing things, and then you hope that people take something from it. Whether it's in a one on one conversation guy with a podcast or a Facebook group, any people I got this all figured out if you just listen to me, you'd be okay.

Unknown Speaker 50:13
You got all the tools? Sure.

Scott Benner 50:15
It's just about how you talk to people. Now, if we have time, I'm going to transition into something else. Okay, it's gonna come right out and say it. Okay, all y'all who seem to get off online saying, I met people using a CGM who don't have diabetes, or you can't use a GLP. One to lose weight, because it's a type two medication, and then you get all upset about it. I gotta say, you should stop. You know, like, it's just, it doesn't make any sense to me at all. If if a person needs to lose weight, and they need a medication to lose weight, and it makes their life better, what do you care if somebody wants to see their blood sugar so that they know the impact that grapes are having on them so that they can talk themselves into not eating grapes anymore? What do you care? Like? Like, I know, everybody's like, well, there'll be a shortage, like, stop it. There's not going to be a shortage. Pharma companies know how to make stuff that makes them money. There'll be okay, okay, maybe there was a moment where, you know, GLP TLP ones came became like, you know, in the Tiktok world and stuff like that, and the company got caught off guard, they're not gonna get caught off guard again, they want to sell the drug to people who need it, that's their business. There's not going to be a shortage, there's not going to be a shortage of insulin, there's not going to be a shortage of Dex coms or li braze. Because Dex calm and Abbott sell CGM. And if you want to buy more CGM, they want to sell you more. Okay, like, like, there might be a moment where there's an ebb or a flow but but if you've been listening to this podcast for years, the CEO of Dexcom has been on here saying like, we want to, we started with type ones. And then we want to get Medicare and Medicaid because that's a pathway to insurance understanding what it does for people. And then once they understand what it does for people, we want to get it for type twos. And then they're going to want to pre diabetes. And then guess what, now you help eliminate this illness for so many people. Like why would you get online and rant and rave at somebody? Because they have a CGM? Is it because you can't afford it?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 52:25
They I feel like most of the time is maybe fear, fear of what scares not scarcity of this of the product, which, you know, that was there for a little bit for one of the drugs. But I do agree that these companies want to make money and so they will figure out a way to prevent that from happening again. But I think it's often fear when we lash out and criticize other people's choices. It's often because we are we're scared. We're not we're not certain of how their actions are. They're going to affect me personally down the line. And, and maybe you really have a personal opinion and feel like that's it's the use is an improper or ineffective. But I'm not sure going back to you know, is is online communication, the best forum for that probably probably not

Scott Benner 53:23
also, you scare people into stopping, saying saying their story. Like, I think, you know, we just Jenny and I just recorded a type two episode this morning about GLP ones and other medications you will use for type two. And I said, I get why people are like, I hear you. I know that some people have like a famine mentality. And they think, oh my god, it's going to be gone. Like I mean, one of the most popular conversations online is like, what, what, what if the zombies come? Where am I getting insulin from? You're not. But but the zombies aren't coming? You're okay. You know, they're gonna keep making it. And so I said to Jenny, I'm behind people getting on tick tock and saying, like, hey, look, I stuck this thing in my leg. And I started doing it last year, and I'm 70 pounds lighter, and my life is better and I am healthier, because then other people who feel stigmatized will go Alright, well, that lady put a video up of herself. I would never have let somebody see me like this. But look at her now. Like, this is terrific. You know, like, I think I may have come out and said, I think everybody that needs to lose 40 pounds to get this drug like imagine where the world would be a year from now. If everybody who had 40 pounds to lose had lost it and felt better about themselves and was healthier and didn't need heart

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 54:41
replaced on the side.

Scott Benner 54:43
Yeah, I mean, just forget financially. How about happiness? What if those people all their hunger was all satiated for whatever reason? Like yeah, maybe some of them had crap parents and maybe some of their brains just tell them to eat like anywhere in between. But if if an entire generation shouldn't people could let that go, then their kids would grow up with a better understanding of how to fuel their bodies, then maybe this wouldn't. So stop being so scared of everything all the time. And I said, I hope type twos start jumping up and going, Hey, here's my mom, Jericho or my ozempic. And instead of showing me their weight loss, show me your a one C coming down and your stability happening and like, you know, back to your life and that kind of stuff. Like, I don't think hiding, we're forcing people to stop talking is the right way to do this. And you don't know what's gonna happen, or what good might come from some personal trainer wearing a CGM, or, you know, my brother wearing it or because he's got type two and, and in his doctor says, Well, you know, it's not covered for this yet, or like, your insurance won't cover it or something like that, like, you want to normalize this stuff to help people you have no idea what good places it might go. And instead, it's right back to I'm the whole set. I'm the world. I'm the center of this conversation. There's a person who has the thing I don't have, it's not fair. It's not right. And I need it, and therefore they shouldn't have it. Those two things are not connected to each other, like, like your lack of financial ability, or the deficit you have with your health insurance, if you have health insurance, or that you don't have health insurance or whatever. It doesn't have anything to do with that person. It's not like if they don't buy it, the company is gonna mail it to you for free. That's not happening. I get the feeling. I understand the anger. I understand the I understand all of it.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 56:40
And the pain, right like I want that, but I can't afford it. I want that for my whole family to experience CGM. But how do we do that mean? It's they're experiencing pain, right? In those moments

Scott Benner 56:51
percent. It's, it's a hard like, and I'm not, I'm not saying it's not. I'm saying going online and railing against that person. They're not going to stop using the CGM or the GLP. One or whatever you think whatever you're yelling about. They're just going to stop talking about it. And then, and then imagine, I guess, imagine if I didn't start telling people how we manage my daughter's blood sugars. Like they're like, do that. Okay. Okay. Imagine that I, which, by the way, happened to me, but I pushed through it. Imagine I started speaking up about how we managed Arden's insulin. And someone was to have said to me, maybe this is a direct quote, you can't tell people how you manage your daughter's insulin because it's dangerous. And I went, I don't agree with you shut up. And then I didn't listen to that person. But what if I did? What if I just went Oh, yeah, okay. The show's got over 11 million downloads. now. It's getting a half a million a month. Right? Like, it's touching places, like you just can't imagine. And it's and the notes come constantly about my agency, my variability, back to running, I had a baby, if any idea how many people call me to tell me, I am the reason they had a baby. I don't get any of America, but they call me okay. And I'm just saying, like, don't stop some middle aged person on Tiktok, from showing you how their weight loss is going. Because it really you don't know where this is going to go. And I don't see why it's a bad thing. Like, listen, I told Jenny, I'll say to you, too. I understand the diet, you know, fueling better fueling exercise, like this is the key. But I don't know how long a person's got to live, where that's not helping. And then, and then society ends up telling you, oh, they're their last cause. And so we write them off, and we'll just get the next generation. But that doesn't happen. Because now I'm hearing that kids are getting type two diabetes. And you know, and obesity in children is going up. It's it's a weird thing to look at people like products coming off an assembly line and going oh, that one didn't work. Throw it away. The next one will be Oh, no, that one's worse. Throw it away. No one ever goes back and looks at the assembly line. They're just they're just like, oh, yeah, just keep throwing, we'll keep the good ones. Get rid of the bad ones. Keep the good ones get rid of the bad ones. There are people for Christ's sake there. You know, I mean, they're not they're not Cadbury eggs, like they're, they're people. Just you know, by the way, you could still eat a Cadbury egg if it had like a split out of it, but and I don't know that people see it that way. But I do. You yell and scream at somebody shouldn't be wearing a CGM. You are silencing them, and you are stopping a potential benefit from coming for other people. And maybe, and this would be terrible. Maybe you shame them out of using it. And that would be horrible. So I understand why you feel that way. But I mean, from my perspective, you sound you said On silly when you're saying it, you just do you know, the your argument is not the argument. If you can't afford it, that's an argument. Should it be cheaper? That's an argument. Yeah. Should insurance companies cover it? That's an argument. Other people shouldn't get it that I don't understand, like, so. I don't know. Maybe there's a reason I don't get but I just think, shine a light on everything and let the good stuff rise to the top. And let's see what happens. I'm sorry. I thought Wait.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:00:27
Yes. No, I Well, I think it just Yeah, going back to why why do we make comments about certain things, going back to just the beginning of either we're passionate, we want to convince others about our opinion. We feel threatened or scared or excited. And we want to share, and I think just constantly trying to apply that, you know, the filter or the lens of how is this going to land with the viewer or the reader? And just try to check yourself again? No, it's just just check yourself sounds so easy. But just constantly applying the filter. And I think we can, it'll be in even, it's already a safe place, the community, the Facebook community that you've created, but it could be even safer during that practice, which I think would be awesome.

Scott Benner 1:01:17
Well, that's terrific. And while I'm busy saying things that people aren't gonna like, let me just add this. When you argue that they have type two, and I have type one, we're not the same and they can't be here. That sounds the same to me. It sounds it sounds absolutely ridiculous to me, I've had that said to me, I've received emails and said, I see you're doing type two content. Stop it. You keep this podcast type one. I don't know what that means. Like, uh, you know, meanwhile, a lady with type two wrote me the other day and said, You know, I asked for a C peptide test. And the doctor said, I don't understand like, what's, how would your management change? If you're using insulin? We think your type two which you're using is on how would your management change? If you knew you were type one. And that person said, well, then I would think it wasn't my fault. And I and so I see, I see that. But at the same time, type two type one, it's still not your fault. Like we can dig into it. But foods been going wrong for about seven decades now. And we and we've been pushed into more processed higher carb, higher sugar stuff that tells your brain you're hungry, you're hungry, you're hungry. And then somebody ends up with insulin resistance and pre diabetes. When we go, oh, they did it themselves. You're out of your mind. Like, like, everybody who talks like that is foolish. That's there's five people who actually have to go out and buy spinach and make it with a half a piece of chicken and don't put any oil on it, and then go for a 10 mile run and the rest of you are foolish. Okay, like so. That's that. And I, again, I think it's one of those like, Well, they did it to themselves. It's not about them. It's about you not wanting to wonder how it happened to you. Right? Like, I'm, I don't see a difference between that argument. And when somebody tried to tell me 10 years ago, that Hurricane Katrina, people who were trapped by Hurricane Katrina, they just didn't work hard enough. And that's why they couldn't get away from it. I'm like, You're out of your mind. Like, you don't understand generational poverty, if you're talking like that. That's right. Yeah. And so anyway, I feel

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:03:32
like that that's, we could talk about this, you know, the topic between type one and type two, and the shame involved in that and how, you know, even 32 years ago, when I was almost 33, when I was diagnosed, it was very, it was juvenile versus adult onset. And then it became more type one and type two. And even in my generation as a little girl, I remember being told, Well, you don't you don't have type to this and then that became my narrative like, oh, that's type one. It's not the kind that I brought on myself. But that that line and I still do hear that because there's either if there's fear, there's shame. But that doesn't help either community have type one or type two right in that mindset, and that neither group or subset within the type one let's talk about the lotta you know, there's so many different groups within the diabetes umbrella that none of us want it and there and we still don't really even know why we all have it, but no one did it to themselves.

Scott Benner 1:04:34
I tend to that I say, the people you got to think bigger, like, like you really you got to think bigger, like stop looking at things. So like micro like, Oh, this is this and I got the bad and you got the good like, that's crazy. Like, you know, type ones. There are some type ones who are starting to use those GLP one medications, and they're helping them and Jenny told me about somebody who's Using 10 units a day less insulin on a GLP one and insulin it so they're looping with a GLP. One, okay? And 10 almost like 15 or 20% of their daily insulin has gone down. And, and they're losing weight. And and by the way, that drug was for type twos. So say thank you like, like, like what do I always say when people give me crap on it I'm like I would prefer if you just said thank you and went away. But this is fun too. But, you know you My point is, you don't know what's going to come up with these things. And they might end up helping you. And I'll tell you right now if it becomes the common practice, that type ones do a once a week injection and insulin, there a one sees are all magically in the fives and they're eat more of the foods they want. And they're not gaining weight and blah, blah, because they're not eating a ton of stuff for Lowe's all the time to correct Yeah. Oh, my goodness, well, then I want am I going to hear a bunch of apologies? I don't think so.

Unknown Speaker 1:06:05
That all sounds pretty amazing. Is the lady

Scott Benner 1:06:07
wrote me going? Don't let these type twos in here. Is she gonna go? Oh, my fault, like no, like, so. You sound silly, is what I'm saying. Like just just just in a sentence. Just want for everybody else, what you want for yourself. That's all just want everybody to be okay, or better or happy or whatever is going to do it for them. And why don't they? Why do you care how they get to it? That's the part I don't understand. Like, just Why do you have an opinion about this? And not for nothing. You can take that sentence and apply it to basically everything that people argue about. And you'd be okay. Everybody's gonna have a reason. Like, oh, I'm defending this, or I'm defending that, or God told me or whatever the hell they're gonna say. But in the end. It's not you like it's not your life? Just, you know? I don't know. Let it be. It's a good song. You should go listen to it. I mean, my God. All right. What did I not do say? What'd I do? Wrong guy told me now?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:07:14
No, I think I think we covered it. I think in essence, I think our goal was to Yeah, just want one everyone to get along. Just you know, I think communicate effectively, communicate authentically and communicate with compassion. And, and living that way, you'll feel better about yourself too, and the way you communicate with others.

Scott Benner 1:07:39
And I'll tell you to not having a victim mentality is pretty helpful too. Because often the conversation you find yourself in is as much you're doing as it is someone else's. And instead of saying this person did this, or they said that or they made me upset, you might want to look at why that is. Because there are plenty of people who can hear things and go on without, you know, without crumbling and screaming and everything else and it's not always someone else's fault. Like I'm not saying you can't run into somebody who's an absolute prick, and like, just be like, Wow, what the hell, you know, but we've gotten to the point now where people are like you did this to me like, I don't know. Like, come on. Anyway, this will be fun. I can't wait to lose a bunch listeners over this one. Thank you.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:08:24
All right, bye bye.

Scott Benner 1:08:31
A huge thank you to one of today's sponsors, G voc glucagon, find out more about Chico Capo pen at G voc glucagon.com. Forward slash juicebox you spell that GVOKEGLUC AG o n.com. Forward slash juicebox. Also want to thank Omni pod and remind you that you can learn all about it and get started at Omni pod.com forward slash juice box check out the dash checkout the Omni pod five Omni pod.com forward slash juice box. And of course Erica is that Erica forsythe.com. Thank you so much for listening. I'll be back very soon with another episode of The Juicebox Podcast.