Scott Benner 3/27/24 Scott Benner 3/27/24

#1156 After Dark: Irish Goodbye

Katherine was diagnosed with type 1 at seven years old and felt extremely isolated. WARNING: Self harm is mentioned.

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Scott Benner 0:00
Hello friends and welcome to episode 1156 of the Juicebox Podcast

Welcome back this is another episode in the after dark series Kate was diagnosed with type one diabetes when she was seven. She is now 38. In my notes to myself, I described Kate's parents as unpleasant. You're going to hear all about it. Kate felt isolated as a child she suffered from depression and there is much more to her story. There's also mentions of self harm, so please be aware. Please don't forget that nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise, always consult a physician before making any changes to your health care plan or becoming bold with insulin. When you place your first order for ag one with my link, you'll get five free travel packs and a free year supply of vitamin D drink ag one.com/juice box type one diabetes research needs you t one D exchange.org/juice box US residents only you can be a type one or the caregiver of one. The survey will take you about 10 minutes you're very much going to help people with type one diabetes likely going to help yourself and definitely going to help me t one D exchange.org/juicebox. Go take that survey please this episode of The Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by the contour next gen blood glucose meter. Learn more and get started today at contour next one.com/juicebox. This episode of The Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by us med U S med.com/juice box or call 888721151 for us med is where my daughter gets her diabetes supplies from and you could to use the link or number to get your free benefit check and get started today with us MIT. This episode of The Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by the ever since CGM and implantable six month sensor is what you get with ever since. But you get so much more exceptional and consistent accuracy over six months, and distinct on body vibe alerts when you're high or low on body vibe alerts. You don't even know what that means. Do you ever since cgm.com/juicebox Go find out

Kate 2:37
I am kit. I am from Northern Ireland and I have been diabetic for 31 and a half years give or take.

Scott Benner 2:46
How old are you? Okay.

Kate 2:49
I want you to mine. I'm 31.

Scott Benner 2:52
Well, so you were just seven? Well, you were diagnosed. I was Wow. That's crazy. That's a long time ago to in the 90s

Kate 2:58
is a long time. Yeah. 92.

Scott Benner 3:02
I'm just going to put this in here for everybody listening. Kate is in Northern Ireland. I am in New Jersey. And we're having the tiniest bit of gap in when we're talking. So we're going to try not to talk over each other. But if you hear that once in a while we're doing our best. Ireland needs better internet. I don't know.

Kate 3:21
I mean, it does.

Scott Benner 3:22
Okay, that's a fair statement. Okay, so what do you remember about being diagnosed at seven?

Kate 3:29
It seems like there was some sort of magic going on. The word diabetes cropped up about 40 times that day, like we turned the radio on, and it was saying diabetes or diabetic disease, things like this. My parents are both medical. My mom actually worked in the Children's Hospital, not in any way related to diabetes. So I think we caught my transition very early.

Scott Benner 3:57
Okay, so you're have family members, your parents who are in the medical field, and you're just hearing ads and stuff like that the word diabetes is coming up a lot that day. But were you having any symptoms.

Kate 4:11
I had a couple of weeks of very rapid weight loss. My parents really struggled to get any kind of fluids into me and I had drunk like seven glasses of orange juice with breakfast and asked for water three or four times in the day and like that's definitely not right. And I had thrown it thrown up in my sleep a couple of times. Well, that's fun. So they knew something was definitely not correct. And my mom took a urine sample into the hospital and just left it on the counter for one of the doctors to walk past and someone walked fast and lifted it and whose is that? They need to come in immediately. What was that? That's case. So we were rushed down to the hospital. It was about it. I think it was eight o'clock on a Thursday night. To be introduced to doctors and nurses that my mother knew personally, but that I didn't know and have my blood sugar tick, and my blood sugar was 43. Which I'm not entirely sure what that is, in fact, I'm not entirely sure the conversion chart that I have goes up. But Hi,

Scott Benner 5:22
I have let's see, I have a great conversion chart on the podcast website, which somebody from the one of the listeners made, and it's actually really terrific. I'm gonna look real quick for you. 774 I have it as that's a pretty big number. Yeah, so So your mom just kind of like used?

Kate 5:43
I was quite belligerent.

Scott Benner 5:47
You were belligerent as a child, because your budget was so high.

Kate 5:51
What will go with that?

Scott Benner 5:56
Sure, why not? So your mom uses her ends at the hospital to get your your urine looked at? I'm assuming they take you in how long? Were you at the hospital? Do you remember any of that?

Kate 6:05
I think I was in for a week. And I probably didn't need to be there that long. But it was a week before I would let anyone else inject me. I took my own injection from like the morning after I was admitted. And wouldn't let anyone else near me with a needle for a week. So they couldn't let me go home until at least one of my parents had given me an injection. So that was a week later. That's there's a cat in this room somewhere.

Scott Benner 6:39
I mean, is it your cat? Well, I mean, I guess that's fine. That the way you just turned around, I was like, there's the cat. She doesn't expect the in the room all of a sudden. Is there any other type one in your family on your mom or dad's side?

Kate 6:53
I have a second cousin on my mom's side. So my mom's cousin's daughter is a type one. And we have a number of type twos. My mum had as arthritis. So I'm not sure if it's the type that would be relevant.

Scott Benner 7:15
Without Hashimotos celiac? No

Kate 7:18
Hashimotos or celiac. My mom definitely has an underactive thyroid. Okay. And other than that, not that much anything that I'm aware of,

Scott Benner 7:29
is your mom take medication for the thyroid? She does. Yeah. Okay. All right. Well, what was it like growing up in Ireland with diabetes?

Kate 7:41
When I was diagnosed, it was, it seemed to be not common. I have never really known very many other people with type one. I did go to like a children's summer camp for diabetics twice. When I was little, I think when I was eight, and when I was either nine or 10. And then, as far as I'm aware of those camps stopped running, because the person who was instrumental in running them was assassinated by the IRA. You don't hear that every day. We're Excellent. Sorry. I have. It does seem ridiculous and even seems ridiculous to us. Because it's like, it's been a long time. I'm from the troubles were the troubles

Scott Benner 8:29
Catherine their murder had nothing to do with diabetes, I assume? No,

Kate 8:33
no. Okay. It was to do with it has to do with his day job. That's, that's crazy, which, you know, was, was not in any way related to any kind of sectarian goings on. He just worked for the wrong company.

Scott Benner 8:51
So for all of you who don't like living in America, you could live in Ireland where you'll get shot for reasons I don't know. And your internet, it's gonna suck.

Kate 9:00
I have. I have family who grew up in Saudi Arabia who were scared to come and visit us here. So

Scott Benner 9:10
listen, I'm making assertions. And the only thing I used to know about Irish and something else is I hear I'll tell you something. I met my wife. And then I met her family. And I noted that her sister would leave a gathering. I always teased it was like the Lone Ranger. Like she was there one second, and then she was just gone. But I've been told since then, it's called the Irish goodbye. Just is that. Is that a real thing? Have you ever heard that?

Kate 9:44
I have heard that. But I don't think it's like a common usage.

Scott Benner 9:49
I don't think it's one thing a lot of people say. They don't say goodbye. They just boom, they're gone. Right? Yeah, you're diagnosed at seven And, you know, you come home. Now you're gonna grow up with diabetes. Tell me about that a little bit. This episode of The Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by the only CGM you can take off to get into the shower. The ever since CGM ever since cgm.com/juicebox. Well, I mean sure you could take the other ones off, but then you'd waste the sensor and have to start over again. But not with ever since ever since is a six month where implantable CGM. So if you want to take a shower without anything hanging on, you pop off the transmitter, jump in the shower, when you get back out, put it back on, and you're right back to where you started. Come to think of it. You could do that whenever you wanted to. Maybe it was your prom night or your wedding day. Maybe you just don't want the thing on for a little while. But you don't want to go through the hassle of taking it off and having to restart it and you know, starting back over with like wonky numbers and having you know all that that goes with it when you take off a CGM and put it back on Oh, but you don't have to do that with the Eversense CGM. Because ever since is the only long term CGM with six months of real time glucose readings. This gives you more confidence, more convenience and flexibility. The Eversense CGM is there for you when you want discretion, a break. Or maybe just a little adult time ever since cgm.com/juicebox. Podcast transmitter off, pop it back on you're right back where you started without any wasted devices, or time. I'm starting to take it for granted. I am I'm starting to take for granted that Ardens diabetes supplies just show up. But they do because of us med us med.com/juice box we get an email that says you know do you want to refill your order? And you click and say yes. And then it just comes to the door? There's not a lot to say when things are done well yeah, I could stand here and tell you us med carries Omnipod five Omnipod dash Dexcom g7 G six tandem x two libre three libre two I mean, they've got there's so much I'm not even listening at all. I should be I will at the end. I promise. My point is this. It just works. And we don't talk about things enough when they just work us med.com/juice box or call 888-721-1514 Get your free benefits check and get started today with the white glove treatment offered by us med us med here's what they got. FreeStyle Libre three and two. They got it. Omni pod dash Yes. Omni pod five, aha. Tandem. Yep. What about have they served a million people with diabetes since 1996. They have better service and better care is what you're going to get from us med but you're also going to get 90 days worth of supplies, and fast and free shipping. They carry everything from insulin pumps to diabetes testing supplies, the latest CGM, and they accept Medicare nationwide. Find out why us med has an A plus rating with the Better Business Bureau at us med.com/juice box or call 888721151 For contour next one.com/juice box that's the link you'll use. To find out more about the contour next gen blood glucose meter. When you get there, there's a little bit at the top, you can click right on blood glucose monitoring, I'll do it with you go to meters, click on any of the meters. I'll click on the Next Gen. And you're going to get more information. It's easy to use and highly accurate. Smart light provides a simple understanding of your blood glucose levels. And of course, with Second Chance sampling technology, you can save money with fewer wasted test strips. As if all that wasn't enough. The contour next gen also has a compatible app for an easy way to share and see your blood glucose results. Contour next one.com/juicebox And if you scroll down at that link, you're gonna see things like a Buy Now button. You could register your meter after you purchase it or what is this download a coupon? Oh, receive a free Contour. Next One blood glucose meter. Do tell contour next one.com/juicebox head over there now get the same accurate and reliable meter that we use.

Kate 14:31
Both my parents were fairly career driven so they weren't around most of the time. And I spent most of my time with older people, grandparent, an aunt and uncle and I don't have any family members really close to my age. And I was the only the only diabetic I knew. I have the second cousin on my mom's side who is also a type one but I think I've met her twice. They don't live far away, but it's far enough away that I've been presented with a coffee. Oh, me.

Scott Benner 15:10
What just happened? But

Kate 15:13
my husband thinks he's funny. Oh,

Scott Benner 15:15
you should look for a different husband

Kate 15:21
claiming to be kept prisoner?

Scott Benner 15:25
Listen, I'm also claiming that for anybody who's listening, somebody can come get me. I think I'm being kept by, against my will to. Okay, so nobody's around you even the people you know are far away, you don't or aren't far away, but you don't see them very frequently. does that leave you feeling isolated?

Kate 15:44
It does quite a bit. And of the people that I knew of my own age, they only knew of diabetes from like, older relatives who have diabetes, or pets who had diabetes, I have been subjected to that I know exactly what you're going through because my dog has diabetes. Oh, concrete.

Scott Benner 16:08
Exactly the same. How do you respond to that?

Kate 16:12
Usually, you're smiling and nodding situation. You come across this conversation at times where someone is saying, Oh, I used to have type two diabetes, but now it's type one, because they've put me on insulin. And you're like, you have it and you don't even understand what it is very

Scott Benner 16:28
common. Katherine, the next time someone says to you, any of you can use this. I know how you feel my dog has diabetes, you can say, Oh, I work for Sal, I know how your dog feels like. They can follow that along quickly enough. I'm sure you can slip it in, no one would even notice. So does that isolation lead to anything because you have a list here of things to talk about that goes through mental health, self harming complications, you know, and I'm wondering what led you in that direction,

Kate 16:58
I feel I didn't really feel like I had anyone to talk to about it. For whatever reason, I felt that it would be better if I had, what I was going through emotionally, as much as possible if I had what I was going through physically. So I would pretend to have recovered from a hypo, before I had really recovered from a Hypo. Or I got very good at hiding symptoms of high blood sugars and low blood sugars, I would avoid taking my blood sugar as often as possible. Because there was quite a lot of guilt attached to any blood sugar that wasn't perfectly within normal range. Like you would possibly a sign of the times, because it's 30 years ago. But if it was not within normal range, it would be because I had done something wrong. Or I wasn't managing it properly. I wasn't looking after my diabetes properly. So I just avoided sharing what my blood sugar was as much as possible. Okay. And I was a very limited, I'm very much a people person, I was very little child. So when I got the opportunity to go to boarding school I left. So I stopped living at home with my parents when I was 11, which I can't imagine a lot of diabetics get an opportunity to do. My mom had to give a lecture to all the boarding school staff, and then electorate, all the teachers at the school so that I could go and be in boarding and then I would only come home at the weekends. So I had a lot more freedom to miss manage my diabetes.

Scott Benner 18:42
So that was what I was going to ask you did you use that freedom to take excellent care of yourself, or to ignore it further?

Kate 18:49
I would say initially, I was quite strict with myself about managing it. For the first years when I was in like a mixed dorm, they kept my insulin in a locked cupboard in sickbay. And I had to have a member of staff go with me to get my insulin out and take my insulin, which I find like the grossest invasion of all, some member of staff would be coming into your room going, are you ready to come with me? Please.

Scott Benner 19:21
Now, I can't do this by myself. But you're 11 though. So that really that really caters The interesting thing because elevens too young, you've only had it for three or four years. You're not doing well to begin with. It's not like it's not like at home. Everything was going terrific. So now you're taking the did

Kate 19:37
your parents, I would set my HPA once he was probably pretty good. At that stage. I had a bit of a wobble when I came to the end of my honeymoon periods. And it took us a little while to work out that oh, she literally just needs more insulin. That's what this is because I couldn't understand why it was suddenly high all the time. My diet was very strictly regimented. I did I started off as a diabetic at the time when it was like, Well, you take this much insulin at this time, and you eat this much. Yeah, no matter what's going on, if you're at a birthday party, you can still only eat this much. If you feel sick, and you don't want to eat, you still have to eat this much needed at that time. And it doesn't matter what time the party is, at that time, you have to eat off you go, Oh, it was very strictly controlled. And a lot of high, I manage day to day was about finding a way to be at a certain place at a certain time, because that's when I needed to take my insulin, okay, and that I needed to

Scott Benner 20:35
eat. So you would consider from seven to 11, well controlled with your mom's help, or were you doing it on your own. With

Kate 20:42
mom's help? Well control, I would have been more or less counting my carbs by myself from that period on. And as my parents were at work all day. So I would have been kind to my own carbs through the day as well. I got quite, because you were so restricted in what you were allowed to eat, it wasn't as difficult as it would be, I feel naive for a child trying to count a different amount of carbohydrate every day and try and work out a dose or program, a pump. To give the right amount of insulin, you were just like, well, you know, if you're really stuck up for digestive biscuits, and that's exactly the right amount of carbohydrate.

Scott Benner 21:31
And so when you do, can you look back and say, Were you set up for failure leaving? Did you really know what you were doing on your own? No,

Kate 21:41
but there was less to know, because you weren't adjusting your doses, you were just taking the same amount every day at the same time. And if it went wrong, it was either because you had exercised shortly after taking insulin, or you had eaten too much or too little. And

Scott Benner 22:02
so as much as there was not a lot of, there wasn't really a lot of a lot to do for you. But you still didn't do it. When you got there like or you did it. And then it kind of waned as you were there.

Kate 22:15
When it wind over, like over puberty. And shortly thereafter when I was like in my annoying teens, it became a kind of rebellion. Alright, it's like, well, I hit my diabetes, so I'm not going to give it any attention. Okay,

Scott Benner 22:33
when did you start having complications?

Kate 22:37
I do have slow digestion. And I have had it described as nerve damage. But I know I had symptoms of that at 13. So I don't know how accurate it is to describe that as a complication, I would say my mid 20s, I started to have issues with my eyes, I got a bad result of routine diabetes eye screening, which we get basically forced to go to once a year in the UK, so that would be arranged. And you'll just be sent a letter go to the screening. And I got a bad result of one of those. And it happened to me around about the time. My ex partner and I were looking to get ready to move from Northern Ireland back to England, which is where he's from. And I had discharged myself from the hospital, and then we decided we weren't going they wouldn't take me back.

Scott Benner 23:43
They wouldn't take you back told me about that. It became

Kate 23:49
it became a whole ordeal. And took, I think a year and a half until eventually I had to just go back to the routine ice screening to get put back on the list to see the specialist about my retinopathy. Because they couldn't put me back into a list after removing me from it. There was a lot of faffing about and then we were back to the bottom of the list. Okay. From I did eventually get back into it. It's not a macular problem, but it is the macular clinic that I attend. I'm usually the youngest person there by about 30 years. I've had six lots of laser surgery to correct the retinopathy. The first surgery didn't go very well because I am extremely photo phobic. And if I look at a bright light, my eyes just clump shut. So the first thought of surgery did not go well at all. And every time thereafter I have had a local anesthetic for the laser surgery which I would not recommend.

Scott Benner 24:50
That's just to keep you a little dopey so you can't close your eyes. It's to

Kate 24:54
numb the nerves for your eye. So you do go to Line temporarily while your eyes and asymptotic G's rich. They're very poor at explaining things to patients here on like aftercare kind of brushed over. So the first thing that they'll ask you to do is to hold your eyes still while they put a needle up your tear duct. Okay, which is not great fun.

Scott Benner 25:25
Okay, I feel like I just got kicked in the balls in case you're wondering how it's going over here. Really? Jesus, very unpleasant.

Kate 25:38
Doctor said follow me and left the room. And I got about three steps that I can't see. And then you have this momentary panic? Oh, maybe I'm supposed to be able to see and something's gone horribly wrong here. I can you help me? Kate,

Scott Benner 25:57
I wouldn't let anybody stick a needle in my eye in a country that couldn't figure out the internet. What do you think of that?

Kate 26:07
What's the alternative?

Scott Benner 26:08
I don't know. I have no idea. What country is to your left?

Kate 26:16
It does become your you're on your own? Yeah. You kind of have to just pick a person to trust doing the things that you can't do yourself. And aside from that you're on your own. Yeah, I feel that. You can't necessarily. Definitely not going to mention any of them. So you can't necessarily just trust what you're told at the diabetic clinic? Because they're going to tell you to eat

Scott Benner 26:41
loads of carbs. Yeah. And I'll tell you how to use your insulin. No,

Kate 26:47
not if you're concerned about your weight, and I'm particularly interested in your weight. They're only concerned about your blood sugar beet staple. There is absolutely no hope in hell, my blood sugar would be stable, no matter what I was doing. If I was eating the amount of carbohydrate recommended. Yeah, that became even more ludicrous. While I was pregnant. Where I was told by one dietitian, I should be eating 270 grams of carbohydrate a day for the baby. Like while I was pregnant, but obviously keeping my blood sugar under eight.

Scott Benner 27:24
Okay, 201 270 270

Kate 27:28
grams.

Scott Benner 27:32
I mean, this is just the Google. But how many carbs? Should a pregnant woman eat a day? Institute of Medicine recommends 175 grams of carbs intake during pregnancy. However, many women are consuming lower carbohydrate diets within pregnancy, improving for glycemic control. Yeah, I mean, I don't think 200 Like it's not a rule. That's for sure. Not I mean,

Kate 27:54
I think I put the phone down on her. And just putting in by Tom to see what it says. So to Bolus for that I would need 45 units of insulin. Yeah. And,

Scott Benner 28:07
yeah, I mean, just in general, like I don't understand eating more than you need. I understand eating what you need, etc. But, I mean, that's not like, here's my point, if somebody said to you eat 200 grams of carbs even. But here's where I want you to get them get this much from vegetables, get this much from here get that's, you know, maybe, okay, whatever. But when you just give people a number, they're not nutritionists, they're just gonna start looking at things and eating whatever they have until they get to the number. It's just it's an incomplete way of making your point is what what I find upsetting. They

Kate 28:42
seem to be very concerned with low blood sugar during pregnancy. And I have not heard an explanation as to why not that I was attempting to set with my blood sugar at 3.5 throughout my pregnancy. But if if my Libra was reading 4.5, then a blood test probably would have been five, I was not concerned about a blood sugar 4.5 for blood sugar. 4.5 is normal. For a normal person. They were freaking out.

Scott Benner 29:22
Yeah, I mean, a 4.5 is 81. Yeah, that seems reasonable. It's very low, I would think. I don't know. I just think nobody knows what they're talking about, generally speaking, and it's fun to know that it exists in other countries as well, not just in America. I

Kate 29:37
think it is a very dangerous thing. Because I have one or two people. I wouldn't necessarily call them friends. There are one or two people that I know vaguely, because I happen to get my pump on the same day and we were in the same class learning how to use our Medtronic pumps. And one of the girls Girls that was in the class at the same day as me had recently had her first baby. And I when I fell pregnant, I had texted her and said, How did you keep your blood sugar under control, particularly after meals with the amount of carbohydrate? They're asking us to eat? And she replied and said, I just did a low carb diet and lied to the hospital.

Scott Benner 30:21
Oh, there you go. Perfect. Yeah, that's what you want. That's where the advice was leading her. You know, she's like, I can't do this. And I can't argue with them. So I'll just do my own thing and not tell anybody. Yeah. Okay. All right. So the baby came out. Okay.

Kate 30:38
Her baby did. Yes. We, we lost our baby, actually a year ago today.

Scott Benner 30:43
Oh, my gosh, wait, I'm sorry. Okay, so this is during the pregnancy.

Kate 30:49
During the pregnancy, I had contacted her for advice, because I think I have my certainly for the earlier part of the day, from getting up in the morning until about three in the afternoon. I had my pump on 200% or more of my normal daily dosage to try and keep it at a reasonable level. And I was eating very little carbohydrate.

Scott Benner 31:11
What did they tell you what they thought happened to the baby? They

Kate 31:15
did do some investigation afterwards, but they weren't able to find anything conclusive.

Scott Benner 31:20
How far along? How far along? Were you?

Kate 31:22
We were 12 weeks.

Scott Benner 31:24
I'm sorry. Do you? Was that your first try? It was our first try. Do you think you'll try again?

Kate 31:33
I think we're just about to get into that this night, where we'd be ready to try again. But you know, we're both a little bit older for first time parents. Yeah, I'm a little wary of needing any kind of assistance, because I'm almost at the age in this country where they wouldn't allow you to have assistance unless you were going to pay for it privately. I think 42 is the cut off? What kind of assistance IVF treatment?

Scott Benner 32:05
Did you have trouble getting pregnant? The first time were you trying for a while? Not at all? Your poor husband.

Kate 32:15
We got married last year on the fourth of May. Because we're nerds. I think I started my period two days later, which would have been the sixth of May. And on the 17th of June, we had a positive pregnancy test. Wow. Quick work and all seem to line up very nicely. My diabetic anniversary was alright you did. I was pregnant at the same time as my cousin. And very strong pregnancy symptoms. Everything seemed to be going extremely well. But a private scam because the shifts My husband works on he was never going to be able to come to the hospital with me. So we had booked a private scan so that he will be able to see and then we went to the scan. There was nobody in there.

Scott Benner 33:03
That was it. Just like that. Yep. Oh my gosh, that's terrible. I'm sorry. needed

Kate 33:09
quite a lot of assistance to end the pregnancy then which took from ours down. Just look at my diary. are scams on the 20th of August. And the 29th of August, which was the was a bank holiday Monday last year, which was a year ago today. We were in the hospital having surgical intervention.

Scott Benner 33:37
Nine days before the procedure. Yeah.

Kate 33:42
I was frantically emailing the hospital. But our scam was on a Saturday. And Sunday I was frantically emailing the hospital. I was supposed to have an appointment, which they call the booking appointment here and a scam on the Tuesday following the scam where we find out the baby wasn't there anymore. And asking was I still expected to come to this appointment on the Tuesday did they want I really did not want to be in the hospital surrounded by heavily pregnant women. I really didn't want to have to do it. Yeah.

Scott Benner 34:17
No. I mean, I can't imagine what I understand.

Kate 34:22
Or is there a different appointment I should come to and they told me to come the following day, which was the Wednesday and I could bring someone with me probably was working so I took my mum. And it's always good to have a second pair of ears when you're in shock. And they give me hormone suppressants that day. And then tablets to take which I took on the Friday and I'd arranged to just be off work and spend the day with my parents on the Friday when I took the tablets and things started to happen. Mainly a lot of pain started to happen on the Friday, and just got worse and worse as the day progressed, and nothing else seemed to be happening. And the following day, the pen continued and nothing else seemed to be happening. On the Sunday, we had a family barbecue planned because we were, we had initially planned to tell the whole family we were pregnant at this barbecue. My cousin had just had her baby. And it was his first, I think, to meet the family. Time and it's like a Greek tragedy. So I have my cousin texted me saying, Do you want us to not come? And I'm like, no, please, I'm like, I need something happy, please come, please come and please bring the baby. And you know, we will let on to family what had happened. And just carried on with the barbecue. And every now and again, I had to go and sort of put my elbows in the sink and close my eyes and go, Oh, this is painful. And at some point, the hospital rang to say, well, is everything for rest, as it sure did everything over like No, not at all. No, we're

Scott Benner 36:15
just at a barbecue. Everything's everything's the same. Thanks for asking. How did you deal with all this? Because in your notes, you talking also about? I mean, like I said earlier, like you wanted to talk about mental health and self harm, like how do you? Is that a thing you've left in the past? Is that something you're dealing with now? And if so, how does it intertwined with all this?

Kate 36:34
I wouldn't say it's entirely my mental health problems are entirely gone. But I am in such a better place. And I have an excellent support system, my husband, who was claiming to be kept here against as well. It's amazing. Certainly in comparison to anything I have had before. He is willing to do things that I would never have asked another person to do. He has my blood sugars coming through on his phone. He's checking up on me, he's reading things. He knows what's going on. And that may not sound like something that you wouldn't expect from a partner, but it's not something that I've had before. Okay. And I think particularly in a relationship that you're starting later, I mean, dating in your mid 30s. Isn't? I wouldn't recommend it. The last time I was dating, there were no smartphones.

Scott Benner 37:40
Oh, you were with somebody for a long time before recently. 15 year? Oh, my gosh, where are you married?

Kate 37:48
We're married just over a year. We were married for somebody last year. To the previous partner. No, no,

Scott Benner 37:54
the previous partner? No. Okay. But you were together for that long.

Kate 37:57
We were together from university. Wow. That's

Scott Benner 38:01
interesting. And was that an unexpected breakup?

Kate 38:04
It was unexpected to me. Not to him. No, no, not to him.

Scott Benner 38:11
Is the Irish Did you just leave and not say anything?

Kate 38:14
No, he didn't. He from Yorkshire. In England, he, he actually moved here with me. In what 2009 I had lost both my grandparents on my mom's side in quick succession and decided I needed to be home for a while. And we agreed that we would move back here for a year. And then he got a really good job. And we just stayed. And we were here for a long time. He owns property here.

Scott Benner 38:47
I don't need a ton of details. But I was just wondering like it just like it ended abruptly for you. And I didn't

Kate 38:55
know no one was saying about Greek tragedies. My diabetes has been poorly controlled. I have put a lot of work into getting it back to a reasonable place. I would still like to improve my control. But I would say it's at a reasonable place. When I go into the diabetic clinic, they're more interested in telling me it's the best graph they've seen today than improving. Were my controls out at the moment. But I spent I want to say six seven years attending the free pregnancy clinic or hospital trying to get my my diabetes control to a place where they were going to give me permission to try and get pregnant and the morning that they have my appointment and they told me I could get pregnant whenever I wanted was the morning that we broke up.

Scott Benner 39:52
Oh perfect. After seven years of trying what were your blood sugar's outcomes a once he's like Prior to going to that class and getting yourself down and what helped you get to a place where you could get pregnant? To

Kate 40:07
be honest, a lot of it was the Juicebox. Podcast. It's worse my HB one C was 13.9, which is 120. I believe.

Scott Benner 40:22
Are you looking? Yeah, okay, I was gonna say I can't tell when I lose you or when you're doing a one C? Of what a one C of what? Mine?

Kate 40:34
It was 13.9. I think that's 128.

Scott Benner 40:39
Well, 13.9 is an average blood sugar of 352. Or an average blood sugar for you of 19.6. Does that sound about where you are?

Kate 40:53
I want to say yes, but it would have required me to be testing it more often.

Scott Benner 40:59
So you wouldn't have known to begin with so you're not testing, you're not using enough insulin, you don't functionally understand what you're doing. You're with this guy, you decide you want to have a baby, you go to the clinic, where they're going to help you get blood sugar's like, quote unquote, where you need to be for for pregnancy. But that takes six or seven years to accomplish. When you accomplish it. That guy leaves. And but you didn't accomplish it really through the classes. You found the podcast, when did you find the podcast? When did the podcast start? 2015

Kate 41:32
I don't think it was maybe 2016.

Scott Benner 41:37
So you're listening, but you're still not completely focused on your management, or it took you that long to get it together. Oh,

Kate 41:45
it took me that long. Okay. I completely avoided talking to my parents about my diabetes control for years. And I remember coming out of the hospital and ringing them to tell them that my HPA once he was in single figures, because it was 9.9.

Scott Benner 42:02
And everybody was like way to go

Kate 42:04
mentally. And they were horrified. And I got my first I was given my first Libra sensor, like a drug dealer would give you a free sample of something. Here, try this FreeStyle Libre sensor that will track your blood sugars. And I think I'd had it on. I think I got it on a Thursday, and I had it on Thursday night Friday. And on Saturday, I went for a run. And then for a swim and it fell off. And I already knew I couldn't do without it from having it on for 40. At

Scott Benner 42:41
work, they hooked your quick. Yeah.

Kate 42:45
At that time, it wasn't available on the NHS. So I self funded that for two years. And I get it on prescription.

Scott Benner 42:54
Is that something you could have afforded? Or it was just it meant enough to you that you made adjustments to your finances? If

Kate 43:01
it meant enough that I made adjustments? I didn't really have any money to do anything else? Gotcha. So it was a bite, where they were 50 Ponds around 50 ponds, and they last for two weeks. So just over 100 pounds a month. And I was I was earning minimum wage at the time. So it was a considerable portion of had to cut out a lot of things to be able to afford it. But I

Scott Benner 43:29
have 100 pounds as about 126 American dollars for people understand what interested okay, there's no doubt how valuable that information is. So if so, is it really the podcast? Or was it just being able to see your blood sugar that helped you and

Kate 43:43
same as being able to see my blood sugar definitely helped. But I'd already made a lot of progress. Oh, from listening to the podcast and you know, kind of getting a grip on myself and testing my blood sugar again. When my HPA once he was 13.9. I was also referred to the clinical psychologist, which was immensely helpful. And I still see the clinical psychologist, I certainly don't see them on any kind of a regular basis. I have you because it's a chronic illness clinic you will not be discharged from it. But I am no longer given sheduled appointments. I will just contact them if I need to talk about something but

Scott Benner 44:31
speaking speaking to that psychologist helped you to what what were you not? What was not happening that was happening after you had those conversations? I

Kate 44:45
had depression and generalized anxiety. Okay, he level my HB one C was at has been referred to as suicidal by a number of clinical professionals. To me and And

Scott Benner 45:00
did it feel that way to you, Catherine, did you feel like you were trying to hurt yourself?

Kate 45:03
I certainly was having a lot of thoughts about life not being worth living. Okay? Because I think I was 30 I turned 30. And I was driving to work. And thinking about what my options were a finding a way that I could work from home, because I didn't think I was going to be physically able to continue going to work every day, because my health was so bad. I have been diagnosed with nephropathy around the same time, and I was on a number of medications to combat the nephropathy and my high blood pressure, which at one point was something like 270, over 180 G's

Scott Benner 45:52
really,

Kate 45:54
I thought I was gonna have a stroke. Yeah. And so one of the medications that they gave me to combat, I had really horrific reactions to I had fairly bad edema. I couldn't breathe. I was having fainting and dizzy spells, I had cysts in my joints, it was pretty grim. And they just kept bringing me back for blood tests, which were inconclusive. And it wasn't. We went on a holiday to stay in which I was in so much pain, I could hardly walk. And that week, we were in Spain. And the Spanish healthcare system is excellent. And my parents took me down to like the local clinic and their local time, and I had like a full speck of bloods done. And we went and got the results the next day, and the Spanish doctor came out to me with the page and pointed to the medication on my list of things I was taking and said, There is your problem.

Scott Benner 46:55
You're just taking so many so many different medications. And

Kate 46:59
it was that one in particular is apparently known for Oh, having quite a nasty spectrum of side effects. I stopped taking it and those symptoms had gone away within two weeks.

Scott Benner 47:13
Jesus really how long were they going on for? I

Kate 47:17
was taking it for a year. And prior to that I've been taking a different one, which was an ACE inhibitor, which gave me a cough like croup, okay? I just I happened to cough in front of the kidney specialist one day and it was off, if that's making you cough like that, you'll have to come off it. This is after having, I don't know three courses of antibiotics from my GP to deal with this cough that won't go away because currently they don't read your chart.

Scott Benner 47:42
So So okay, so the therapy helps with the feelings about life not being worth living, and you get some better health care and get off of medication that's hurting you. You're listening to the podcast and trying to make adjustments. It sounds like you were moving through quicksand. Like but but making progress just slow progress, which is

Kate 48:04
Is that about right? It's been progress over years. Yeah, it's taken years I do have a list of complications, but they're all stable Not at the moment. I have been to the eye specialist within the last month the back of my eyes are stable. There are no changes. There are no new vans, I have a lot of scar tissue. and a high blood pressure event has caused bleeds in the past. But it's been two years since the last one of those everything is nicely stable. She be English isn't her first. And she has this odd turn of phrase because they they send me to her from the pre Pregnancy Clinic. Just they are to see if my eyes are stable before we try getting pregnant. And she says it's okay for us to start practicing.

Scott Benner 49:10
But does that mean you don't know finish within 10 Is that thing

Kate 49:16
about stable? I own the the kidney specialist once a year and I for a checkup unless my meds need tweaking. So my blood pressure is perfect. My protein leakage is well under control. My kidney function is over 60% Which is where they stop measuring. considered normal if it's over 30

Scott Benner 49:44
Well good for you. Do you feel like a weight lifted?

Kate 49:46
The last year since we lost the pregnancy has been quite difficult. And I put on a lot of weight between getting pregnant and no And I think a lot of that has been to do with the amount of insulin that I had to take to keep my blood sugar. Stable. Yeah. So over twice what I was normally taking. And it's been kind of difficult to get in control of

Scott Benner 50:21
that. Also, were you, were you really going for the 270 carbs thing while you're pregnant? You weren't doing that. Okay. Yeah, that would have been crazy. The amount of insulin you would have needed then would have been insane.

Kate 50:37
I feel guilty about using a lot of insulin. I mean, we don't, I don't have to pay for my medication here. But that's not true for everyone. I feel guilty about using a lot of insulin.

Scott Benner 50:52
Okay, I hope you can find a way not to feel guilty about that. That's just you're just using the amount you needed. Not a thing you should feel guilty about. Why do you feel guilty about that?

Kate 51:01
It feels wasteful. Really. We've had some supply problems here recently. And like, since Brexit, I have been stockpiling insulin, like not to a ludicrous degree, but I'll have like three or four files in the fridge more than I technically need. Oh, my God, am I glad that I did that. There's been a period of a couple of months where they're just like, oh, we just can't get that. There isn't any.

Scott Benner 51:30
I have to say I, I would feel guilty about that. I think I think that you should use what you need to use. Just enough to feel bad about life. Don't feel bad about that. You know? Okay, so let's see what we have here. Let me ask you, if there's anything we haven't gotten to that you definitely want to talk about? I don't think so. We're doing okay.

Kate 51:56
We're done. Okay.

Scott Benner 51:59
What about the podcast helped you was that because I've heard some people say I knew what to do. You didn't tell me like how to manage. It was I felt like connected to diabetes by listening every day and hearing other people's stories that made me want to do a better job. So did you not know what you were doing? Or were you just not doing it? In

Kate 52:20
Part, I didn't know what I was doing. I learned about Pre-Bolus thing through the podcast. I have since had Pre-Bolus thing mentioned to me through the clinic. But like within the last four years, okay, people this thing has been mentioned, for the first time to me through the clinic, they sent me on a Daphne course, which is the dose adjustment for normal eating course, I think made a huge difference because it was probably the I probably hadn't had any refresher about counting carbs. Since I was eight years old.

Scott Benner 52:58
Oh my god. Can I ask you a difficult question, Kate? Sure. What's with your parents.

Kate 53:07
They were busy all the time. And I'm a control freak.

Scott Benner 53:11
So they weren't trying to help. And if they did try to help you push them away.

Kate 53:15
When I was diagnosed, we were told 40 grams of carbohydrate for a man meal, and 20 grams for a snack. And I was seven years old, but my mother would be quite keen for me to continue working on those ratios. Now as an adult. If I see my mother and she doesn't mention my wit, I would be wondering what was wrong with her? So

Scott Benner 53:43
is it? Is it just that her style doesn't match well with how you need to be spoken to?

Kate 53:50
Maybe? I mean, I don't think she should speak to anyone. So I

Scott Benner 53:54
know I'm just saying I'm trying to trying to be polite, but okay, so they weren't helping you

Kate 54:02
with parents of a certain age thing. Are they older? They were in their 30s When they had me and I'm nearly 40 So they're around 70 know, my mum, parents were a lot older. My grandfather was born in 1910.

Scott Benner 54:20
Is it how direct is it? Is it okay? You're fat? Or is it some it's pretty direct? Okay. I was gonna try to give you a spectrum. She was out of

Kate 54:34
the ex boyfriend. The first time I ever brought him home from England to meet my parents. My father met us off the plane and greeted me with the phrase you haven't lost any weight. Have you? My ex boyfriend looked at me when he's brave

Scott Benner 54:53
Oh, my sorry. I don't know why I'm laughing that just it's there. That's that's what got me is the idea of like there She is right there with her boyfriend who we've never met before. And you know what I'll do? Yeah, that's terrible. Sorry. That sucks. I don't know why you were depressed.

Kate 55:14
Okay, so I think like a lot of what helped me was, without that realization that you were on your own with it, so you kind of better get on it. You know, there's no point in waiting for it to get better. If you want it to get better, you're gonna have to make it better. And actually making it better is not as complicated as it may seem. No

Scott Benner 55:37
know. I mean, listen, if I can talk about it, and it makes sense that it's got to be pretty uncomplicated, because I'm pretty much an idiot. But what I'm seeing here is, I can't believe that I've come to believe this. But I've talked to enough people, you have a very common story. Diagnosed at a certain age, you know, there weren't a lot of expectations. So managing diabetes seemed kind of easy, because nobody was really tracking it that much, and there wasn't that much to do. And then you get a little older, you don't really know what you're doing. But in your parents mind, you're like, Whoa, she takes care of it. So that moves on you head out of the house, you get older, you ignore it, at some point, you decide you want to have a baby, this is really a common like, story for women, you decide you want to have a baby, you start looking hard at your health, and you go, Oh, God, this is nowhere near me having a baby. And then you make steps towards either getting that together or give up. That's really how I see it go. Yeah, those are your options. Yeah. And so you know, you can go backwards in the, here's the kindness, you come on and tell the story so that people whose children are now eight and 11, and 15 and 18. And hear this and think we could get ahead of this. And this doesn't have to be my kids story. That's why I like having the conversations, because I hope they're spurring other people into doing it. Or I'm hoping like a, like a 20 year old girl at college hears this and says, You know what, why don't I not wait the six years to decide I want to have a baby to take care of myself? Why am I starting now? So my eyes don't bleed. So I don't feel I don't find out what it's like to get a needle in my tear doc, and or whatever else is coming here. And we also haven't really talked Kate about high blood sugars could absolutely make you feel like you're depressed. Or it could give you mental instability. You don't I mean, like you could be

Kate 57:33
an angry angry person. Right? And but

Scott Benner 57:36
people don't see that they don't go oh, you know, Kate's blood sugars are really high all the time. They just go she's mad, or she's angry like you, you don't realize how many parts of your life it's going to touch in ways that like, There's no magical doctor that's just going to look at you and go, Oh, I know what's wrong. Take one of these, turn this dial here eat some of this, Baba, bah, all fixed. Life doesn't work that

Kate 58:00
way. No, unfortunately, magic pills. And

Scott Benner 58:03
variables start layering on top of each other to the point where you can't make sense of them anymore. And again, by example, you're taking a medication for a year, that's decimating you and you don't even realize it. I'm just saying, if you start off well, you have a much better chance of ending Well, yeah, and and that's what to me. That's what your story is about. It's about what happened to you, and you found a reset point. And that's terrific. And you'll move forward from there and everybody else. I hope you find your reset point sooner than that. I also think it's a great example that I don't give a crap how smart your eight or 11 year old is. Really don't put them in charge of their health. I mean, they can be part of it and learning as they go. But you can't just walk away from them and say they have it. I don't know that. I'm not sure I could walk away from Arden at 19. And that she wouldn't be on someone's podcast 10 years from now going, Yeah, you know, he let me go on my own. And the next thing I did was XYZ just like everybody else say,

Kate 59:08
you know, if they hadn't let me go on my own, I might have lost my mind. But oh,

Scott Benner 59:11
you'd be nuts with good blood sugars. Is that what you're saying?

Kate 59:16
In prison for murder. So

Scott Benner 59:19
let's assume that in the conversations we're imagining they're not your mom and dad. Oh my god, I can't imagine where you in the airport when he said it. Were there like people around? Yeah. Surrounded

Kate 59:34
by people.

Scott Benner 59:37
Wow. He didn't read any of the parenting books. I

Kate 59:41
wonder if I can find it because I actually have it on video. My parents were in Spain when we found out we were pregnant last year. And we had the the one photograph that I'd been given at the hospital showing a little, a little bump and I'd put it in the back of the photo album of the wedding photographs. So we were showing those to mom and dad and I just put this the scan photograph in the back. When we were telling them that I had my mom on video to the end of the turning the period and looking at it and staring at it and looking at me and saying, You can't lose any weight. No, I can.

Scott Benner 1:00:22
Is your mom then?

Kate 1:00:24
I would. She's not overweight, but she's constantly on a diet.

Scott Benner 1:00:27
Okay. We all are. So oh my god. Yeah, I don't know what to say. It's terrible.

Kate 1:00:39
Go kind of wish I didn't have that on video. Yeah,

Scott Benner 1:00:43
yes. She didn't go Oh, I'm so happy. I'm so proud of you. I can't wait. What do you think you'll name the baby? None of that. She went Ah, well, she

Kate 1:00:50
was clearly happy and smiling and crying and hugging. But that's what she said. But

Scott Benner 1:00:56
that's what she said. And that's something. I wonder why that is? How is she? 60.

Kate 1:01:01
She's 30 years older than me. So she is 67.

Scott Benner 1:01:05
Tell me when you were born? What year 84? She was born in 5454. Okay. I don't know my mom was born then. She didn't say any. Well, my mom was born actually earlier than that. And she still didn't say that kind of crazy stuff. Me. It's just luck of the draw. Are you like that? Be real honest with me. I mean, I don't think you are okay.

Kate 1:01:31
I am. I am pretty much as non judgmental as they come. I don't have grinds to be judgmental of other people.

Scott Benner 1:01:40
Well, that's self awareness. I don't maybe your parents don't have that. Who knows? It might just be generational to honestly. You know, it sucks. But maybe it's just how they were brought up and how they were raised. And it's how they talk. Maybe they didn't help you. That's for sure. You still talk to them? It is?

Kate 1:01:58
Oh, yes.

Scott Benner 1:01:59
Yeah. Do you really talk? Yes,

Kate 1:02:03
I have put a lot of work into keeping that relationship

Scott Benner 1:02:07
is the work, you're not killing them is that the work?

Kate 1:02:11
Sometimes, I mean, when my my previous relationship fell apart. And I was in the very enviable position where I had assistance in getting a deposit to buy my own place. I moved in here on the first lockdown started, within three months of me moving into a house by myself for the first time ever. And they offered to have me come live with them. You said, I stayed here by myself.

Scott Benner 1:02:46
But what did you What did you say though? No, no, thank you. Did you bother telling them? Why do you think they knew why? I

Kate 1:02:57
don't I don't think they would understand why.

Scott Benner 1:03:01
Okay. I mean, I believe that I don't I don't think so if I'm being clear, I don't think that your parents is an example, or anyone's parents who would do something like this. I don't think that they're sitting like, you know, I don't know, the bad guy from a 40s movie, wringing their hands and planning your demise. You know, the

Kate 1:03:21
most frustrating part of it is that it comes from a place of love, and his like, but you can't say that.

Scott Benner 1:03:29
Or maybe there's a better way to talk about this. And maybe there's not, by the way, like me, you've alluded to it, maybe it would have been difficult. Like maybe your mom could have come up to you as nicely as possible, and tried to have that conversation with you. And even if she said everything textbook you might have gone. Are you calling me fat? And maybe it just would have gone that way anyway, like, I have no idea. But you could try, you know, just use I don't know what animals let their kids go at a certain age and never see them again. Maybe we should try that.

Kate 1:03:56
Most animals, most animals.

Scott Benner 1:04:00
Maybe we should try that for a while a couple of generations have just been like right leave good luck, and we'll see how this goes and keep me out of your problems. And maybe I won't make them worse. Oh, my gosh. All right, Kate, I really appreciate you having this conversation with me and sticking through the technical trouble and everything. It was really lovely to get to know you. I appreciate it very much.

Kate 1:04:22
You too lovely to finally get to speak to you in person. Well, I've been listening for long.

Scott Benner 1:04:28
That's it's so nice. I can't believe you've been listening that long. That's terrific.

Kate 1:04:34
It certainly helped me a huge amount.

Scott Benner 1:04:36
I'm glad I really am. So again Pre-Bolus saying like so management ideas helped you because you didn't have those. Do you like hearing the people's conversations is that are that I

Kate 1:04:49
love hearing people's stories. I think when you see diabetes represented in them when you see diabetes represented movies, and it's almost always entirely incorrect. When you see it represented in the media, it is either doom and gloom, or someone showing what a good day they've had. For the most part, I'm certainly predating the podcast, I did not see anyone struggling with control represented, okay. It appeared that I was the only person struggling with control. And you knew that mustn't be true. Because when you go to the clinic, there are other people there who are clearly struggling with control. But their stories are not represented. So

Scott Benner 1:05:42
you think, is it to say then that the podcast does a good job of accurately representing what it's like to have diabetes? Yes. And that that's important to you? Absolutely.

Kate 1:05:54
And the the episodes with Janee, the big episode about variable, I must have listened to that episode, like 100 times.

Scott Benner 1:06:05
I would like it if everyone listened to all the episodes 100 times, please. Thank you.

Kate 1:06:12
That was one of my favorites. Definitely. Why? It was it's really like this. And I sent it to other people, for them to listen as well. This is what it's like for me on a daily basis. Because people don't see, you know, the number of times I have heard, where you just watch what you eat, and you take some insulin, and then that's fine. Is this. Okay? Yeah, I'm glad you say that.

Scott Benner 1:06:40
I know, that's hard. She and I, Jenny. And I just, I think we just finished up recording the myth episodes, because that was something else. We were trying to shine a light on just what people think and what you hear in public. But you know, what is obviously, mostly not true about your life.

Kate 1:06:59
Our local health center has a special rate for people with disabilities, but they don't stay on the website, what they mean by that. So I had phoned them to see if they included diabetes, as a disability that you would get discount to attend, they'll send her for. And I was told by the woman on the phone that diabetes is not a disability.

Scott Benner 1:07:25
hardly think it's like having a cold, except you get a pump. So yeah, nobody's I mean, it's your point, nobody's going to understand it. As well, as you're going to, I've come to believe that the that statement that doctors tell you like, like a good doctor will tell you listen, in six months or a year, you're going to understand this better than I am. And I think they say it to you, to give you I don't know where that statement comes from. I really would like to dissect it more. But I think it's I think it's, it doesn't help people the way they intended. I imagined they intended to saying, Look, you're going to gather up all these experiences, and eventually you're going to know so much about this, you're going to make me look like I don't know about it, which, you know, hint, hint, they'd already don't know about it. But I don't think that that's a comforting thing for newly diagnosed personally. What do you mean, I'm going to no more than the doctor? That doesn't make sense. Again, it's

Kate 1:08:22
not like you can you can tell a newly diagnosed person you're on your own with this, right? Yeah. Am I? I don't I don't mean it exactly like that. Yet. There are resources and other people and medical professionals that are available to you with help, but they can't understand it for you. Yeah,

Scott Benner 1:08:39
that really that's that's a wonderful sentence. I think that helps. That's why Yeah, I've been thinking about that a lot lately, right? Because I think what they're probably thinking is, hey, listen, you're fine. This is all on you, I'm barely going to help you. And if you don't figure this out, you're gonna have incredibly bad health outcomes. But you know, instead of they go, Oh, don't worry in a year, you're gonna understand this way better than I do. It's like, I guess they're trying to give you like an attaboy like some like a lift up. But I just think that better communication and more words, sometimes is the way to go. You know, just tell them. This is difficult, but it's doable. Here are a bunch of people doing it. Well, that is possible. So set up that there's hope. And then give them some basics, here's what you're really going to have to know you're really going to need to know how insulin works, you're really going to need to know what your blood sugars are, you're gonna have to understand how food impacts you're gonna have to be flexible. These things are going to come in time you're going to have experiences those experiences will inform you. I know this sounds like a lot now, but we'll write them down so it doesn't seem as bad. Here's the fourth. Keep notes as well. Right?

Kate 1:09:50
I have graphs. I have graphs

Scott Benner 1:09:54
of your notes and just trying to figure it all out.

Kate 1:09:57
Is what what am I in while I'm getting through a period of time and how those are affecting each other, I have graphs.

Scott Benner 1:10:05
Okay, let me end with this. How was your blood sugar today? Like, what are your? What is your range? Like? Were you, you know, you struggle How easy is it for you, etc.

Kate 1:10:16
I have been between alarms all day, which is not to say that it's been perfect. It has been between five and nine all day.

Scott Benner 1:10:31
Five is 99 is 162. between 90 to 162. All day, what time is it that right now? It's late, right?

Kate 1:10:40
It is 7pm. Okay, yeah,

Scott Benner 1:10:43
cuz it's like two in the afternoon here. So that's terrific. What have you eaten today?

Kate 1:10:48
This morning, I had some natural yogurt with a very small amount of granola and a sugar free sweetener and my yogurt and I had some fish sticks. And at lunchtime I had some homemade chicken curry with chickpeas in it and broccoli. Sounds

Scott Benner 1:11:10
like a good day. It really does.

Kate 1:11:14
I've had about 30 grams of carbohydrate today. Nobody's

Scott Benner 1:11:17
asked me what I ate today so far. But I would tell you if you asked me, and let me tell ya, I call your mom up. You're like listen, I had a key lime coconut milk. Yogurt this morning. I had one egg with one shrimp. I scrambled the egg. The shrimp had hot sauce on it. I cooked them together and put them in a small wrap. I think the wrap is like 20 carbs. I've also taken a digestive enzyme with my food which by the way, I wondered if you shouldn't try earlier in the episode.

Kate 1:11:50
I actually got some last week. I started taking them on Friday. And I find them to be slightly to effect.

Scott Benner 1:12:00
Oh, here they come out the other side. When you do can you take fewer don't take them with every meal take them maybe more with protein stuff that's harder to digest.

Kate 1:12:10
I was thinking I would take them with like larger meals. Rather than it says take no more than three a day. Yeah, it was meals.

Scott Benner 1:12:22
I tried to stack them with the food that looks more like it's difficult to digest. If you don't, I mean, I

Kate 1:12:29
went through a period of eating like protein and almost exclusively raw vegetables and was having like real stomach problems. And as it turns out, that's probably the worst thing you can eat for so digesting. Yeah,

Scott Benner 1:12:43
for sure. million percent. But I mean, the point is that some type ones just have slower digestion, and it's not gastroparesis. So I would think if you see your insulin hitting pretty consistently, and you're not like getting, I don't know, if you're not getting impacts from food hours and hours and hours later than you expected. You might just have a slower digestion and some of these enzymes like peppered through your meals, like in decent places could really you might even see your insulin go up go down a little bit because the foods not sitting in your stomach as long.

Kate 1:13:17
I do you sometimes see where my insulin will take effect. And I'll go low and be looking at this low going. Should I correct this low? I've just eaten and then have a colossal high because I've had to correct you know, a low blood sugar that has gone to like 3.1 and falling. Yes. But haven't digested the dinner yet.

Scott Benner 1:13:42
Well, that I mean, listen, I'm not saying you don't have gastroparesis either. I don't know. But I'm just saying that this would be an easier way to like, look into.

Kate 1:13:50
I'm hoping the the enzymes will stop that from happening. Yeah, good luck.

Scott Benner 1:13:56
I mean, I don't know what else to say. Like, I won't see you again. So good luck. I mean, I could say something your mom would say, that's not gonna work can't give up now. How's that? sound more parental to you.

Kate 1:14:12
The more along the lines of why don't you just digest properly? No. Oh, I

Scott Benner 1:14:15
see Kate, you're doing it wrong. Or when you meet? Oh my gosh. I'm sure she'll have to be 100. Me everyone loves to be honored. But please be nice to each other. Okay, Kate, I'm going to hold on for a second. I'm going to say goodbye and I'll wrap some stuff up with here at the end.

A huge thanks to the contour next gen blood glucose meter for sponsoring this episode of The Juicebox Podcast. Learn more and get started today at contour next one.com/juicebox I want to thank the ever since CGM for sponsoring this episode of The Juicebox Podcast. Learn more about its implantable sensor, smart transmitter and terrific mobile application at ever since cgm.com/juicebox. Get the only implantable sensor for long term wear. Get ever since. A huge thanks to us med for sponsoring this episode of The Juicebox Podcast. Don't forget us med.com/juice box this is where we get our diabetes supplies from you can as well use the link or call 888-721-1514 Use the link or call the number get your free benefits check so that you can start getting your diabetes supplies the way we do from us med the Juicebox Podcast is full of so many series that you want and need afterdark s gotten Jenny algorithm pumping bold beginnings defining diabetes the finding thyroid, the diabetes Pro Tip series for type one, diabetes variable series mental wellness, type two diabetes pro tip, how we eat. Oh my goodness, there's so much at juicebox podcast.com. Add up into that menu and pick around. And if you're in the private Facebook group, just go to the feature tab for lists upon lists of all of the series. always free. Always helpful. If you're looking for community around type one diabetes, check out the Juicebox Podcast private Facebook group Juicebox Podcast type one diabetes, but everybody is welcome type one type two gestational loved ones. It doesn't matter to me. If you're impacted by diabetes, and you're looking for support, comfort or community check out Juicebox Podcast type one diabetes on Facebook. If you're not already subscribed or following in your favorite audio app, please take the time now to do that. It really helps the show and get those automatic downloads set up so you never miss an episode. Thank you so much for listening. I'll be back very soon with another episode of The Juicebox Podcast. The episode you just heard was professionally edited by wrong way recording. Wrong way recording.com

#1155 Grand Rounds: School Nurse

Scott and Jenny discuss proper type 1 diabetes management in schools.

+ Click for EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Scott Benner 0:00
Hello friends, welcome to episode 1155 of the Juicebox Podcast

Welcome back everyone to the Grand Rounds series. I hope you're enjoying it. Today's episode is for school nurses. If you know a school nurse who'd like to know more about type one diabetes, send this one to them. Nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise, always consult a physician before making any changes to your health care plan. If you're looking for community around type one diabetes, check out the Juicebox Podcast private Facebook group Juicebox Podcast type one diabetes. If you'd like to help with type one diabetes research, you can do that right there from your smartphone or your tablet in just 10 minutes. T one D exchange.org/juicebox. They're looking for US residents who have type one diabetes or are the caregivers of someone with type one. You're going to help people living with type one diabetes, you may help yourself you're definitely going to support the podcast in less than 10 minutes T one D exchange.org/juice box please go fill out that survey. I cannot tell you how much it helps.

This episode of The Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by cozy earth.com Cozy Earth is where I get my clothing, linens and towels from they're incredibly comfortable and temperate. I love them. I really do love them. And I love that I can give you an offer code that will save you 40% off of your entire order. Just use the offer code juice box at checkout and you will save 40% at cosy earth.com This episode of The Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by the ever since CGM. Ever since is going to let you break away from some of the CGM norms you may be accustomed to no more weekly or bi weekly hassles of sensor changes. Never again, will you be able to accidentally bump your sensor off. You won't have to carry around CGM supplies and worrying about your adhesive lasting. Well that's the thing of the past. Ever since cgm.com/juicebox. This show is sponsored today by the glucagon that my daughter carries. G voc hypo Penn. Find out more at G voc glucagon.com. Forward slash juicebox. Good morning Jenny. How are you?

Jennifer Smith, CDE 2:44
I'm fine. How are you?

Scott Benner 2:46
It's Monday, I'm on my way to the dentist after this. I don't know how good I am actually.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 2:50
Oh fun. Hopefully they find nothing. They say you have sparkling tea.

Scott Benner 2:55
This is the end of a thing for me. So this is this is the easy visit after the two where he's like, sorry for the pinch and then stuck a needle through the palate of my mouth. Oh, oh, sorry, for the pinch. What a way to put that the pinch, sorry that it feels like someone's running a hot poker through your face. Actually, our dentist is terrific. So I shouldn't say that he's very good at making injections. Today, we're gonna go over the school nurse portion of the Grand Rounds series. And this one is great, because we added it late to the list you and I did. But then through happenstance, I started seeing a mass flood of school nurses come into the private Facebook group. And it turns out that just it just took one person in a different Facebook group for school nurses to say, hey, if you're having trouble with helping kids with type one, you should go check out Juicebox Podcast. So like a serious influx came in. And I took that opportunity to make a post and say to everybody that's in there, 45,000 people in there, there's gonna be a bunch of new school nurses in here, new members that are school nurses, what would you like to tell them? And then oh, my gosh, Jenny, the post ended up reaching 18,000 of my members, which if you don't know how the Facebook algorithm works, that's generous. Because even though there's 45,000 people in there, it doesn't serve it to everybody all the time. And it's

Jennifer Smith, CDE 4:21
interesting. I know nothing about the like people, they are looking at putting a picture in here for the algorithm. I have no idea what that means.

Scott Benner 4:30
Means the algorithm likes pictures, so it'll show it the more people and people like picture so they click on them. But this post got 170 replies, wow, after being seen by 18,000 of the members. Nice. And all I said was there's a large influx of school nurses who have just joined the group. I'd love to see a vibrant conversation aimed at them. What are your best tips? So that's what we're gonna go over today. Great. Yeah. So this is feedback from the community. These are from real moms and dads, and I have some input because I had a kid go completely through school. With a with type one diabetes, yes, I want to start by highlighting the anxiety that I felt our daughter was diagnosed when she was two. She was MDI for a couple of years. My first compelling feeling about getting a pump was I don't want another person to stick my daughter with a needle every day. Oh, interesting. That was just it. I mean, I don't know why that occurred to me like that. But I was like, I don't want that. So we got Arden and Omni pod. And that took away that one little thing, but you know, didn't really help anything else. So,

Jennifer Smith, CDE 5:36
right, it still means somebody else is pushing buttons. Yeah, right. And I don't know, like, I've always felt when I've gone to the doctor, and had to supply the thing to have them download. It's almost like taking a piece of my body and handing it over is kind of how I felt. And it feels very weird to hand that over. So I can imagine being a caregiver of a child or some, you know, or for somebody else. Yeah, the idea of that being touched, right?

Scott Benner 6:07
I'm glad you brought that up. Because I had this experience with Arden all the time, where I found, like, she's the nominee pod, right? So it's an insulin pump, that's tubeless. And the controller for it is therefore not attached to her. Right. But it has a physical distance limitation. It won't work if you're a certain distance away from somebody. And I used to have to tell her, Hey, stay still for a second, like stand here. While this thing makes a connection. It wasn't long, but it felt the humanizing to me a little bit.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 6:42
Yeah, I can see that. Because from a tubed perspective, you already have that mental piece of understanding that it's there. Sure, I have to sit here and a child might even not think about the fact that they need to sit there because the tubing clearly is a is a visible connection piece, also

Scott Benner 7:00
push a button on a two pump and hand the pump back to them. And then it does what it's going to do while they're walking away. And yes, before, I don't know, I just did something that always stuck with me that there was something not right about, even though it wasn't a demand, it was all done very kindly, but it was like you have to stand here stand here for a second. And it just made me think of that when you said, even just handing my data over to somebody else feels like I'm giving something away. It does. Yeah. So anyway, I would say keep that in mind. You know, when you're dealing with these kids that, you know, and you'll see as you go through the feedback here that there are a lot of opportunities to create moments where they get to feel poorly about things and and you're not gonna know they're happening, you know,

Jennifer Smith, CDE 7:44
and I think that in this same kind of line of talk, as a school caregiver or school nurse, that piece of hand the product over to me, when I mean, this is a beginning start of talking to the family, does the child actually know how to button push, and all you really do need to do is truly watch them push the button and make sure that the figures in the facts that they're putting into it are exactly what they need to be then great. Don't touch the product. There's there's no reason or anxiety,

Scott Benner 8:16
if they're going to do it wrong. Give it to me. If that makes the person feel like Oh, I'm that you lose your autonomy, right? Yeah. And I'm sure there are kids who aren't old enough or don't know how to do it or anything like that. That's one thing. But that is needed, you make a good point. I'm going to start here with this, this person just says I absolutely love our school nurse, she and the two ladies that helped her have become like, Mom, number two to my son. Oh, yeah. And the other diabetic kiddos at the school, I couldn't ask for better support system, and I have them, they're willing to learn more willing to help my child, I don't even think they realize how hard it is for me to give up control, but I completely trust them. Now, that's great. And many of you might be doing that already. But as we get through other feedback, you're gonna see that that's not everybody's experience. And I'm always the one the first one to say like, school nurses are no different than other health care professionals. You don't know who you're getting until you get them. And, you know, my problem always is that if you get somebody who's combative, or egotistical, or whatever might happen there and you have you get into this battle with them, you could just think this is normal and just take it. And that's, you know, upsetting to

Jennifer Smith, CDE 9:25
you. And as you bring that in, I think I've seen that more in working with families. I've seen that attitude, if you will happen a lot more with nurses who have and again, this is not all of them. But nurses who've been around for a while and have had experience with type one diabetes, or have an idea in their head about it, and how it should be managed. But it's very aged information. It's the old 15 and 15 rule right for treating lows, it gets stuck there. And no matter what is told to them, that's what they're going to do. And this is where those plans that you come in to school with, to care for a child who has some type of medical special need, like diabetes, those become really important and can be more of a teaching tool, then to say, Hey, I see that you, you didn't know what you were doing. But that was years ago, and we have to update this or each child that diabetes is into, you know, an individual same

Scott Benner 10:32
for every person, or even every food and people bring this up in their feedback, two main messages through through all these 170 comments are, please don't talk down to us. What I'm hearing is that that's how people these are their experiences and work with us. You know, like, yeah, and that that struck me too, is like, how did it become adversarial so quickly? I just want my kid to be healthy and in class and not missing time. And I'm assuming you want that as well. Right? How's it possible? We're arguing, you know, like, like, we're, we're literally on the same team. This person just says, Please don't talk down to parents about how they manage. This journey has been evolving over time. For us. It was quite emotional in the beginning. I didn't appreciate the discussions about checking everything through the doctor. Yeah, so it sounds like the school nurse anytime the mom said hey, could we change this or give her a little more a little less? Well, we'll have to call the doctor. I'm assuming from the school nurse side. That's something they have to do. But you got to see what it feels like here like I know what I'm talking about. Give them another half a unit I've lived through this 50 times right? Like on oh, we're gonna call the doctor with a law you're calling the doctor which is not going to get a response today. And maybe not this week. Right now my kid's blood sugar is going to be high all week long. Because you know, what's the point like at some point you got to be a an ally in this. If you take insulin or sulfonylureas you are at risk for your blood sugar going too low. You need a safety net when it matters most. Be ready with G voc hypo pen. My daughter carries G voc hypo pen everywhere she goes because it's a ready to use rescue pen for treating very low blood sugar and people with diabetes ages two and above that I trust. Low blood sugar emergencies can happen unexpectedly and they demand quick action. Luckily G vo Capo pen can be administered in two simple steps even by yourself in certain situations. Show those around you where you storage evoke hypo pen and how to use it. They need to know how to use G vo Capo pen before an emergency situation happens. Learn more about why G voc hypo pen is in Ardens diabetes toolkit at G voc glucagon.com/juicebox. G voc shouldn't be used if you have a tumor in the gland on the top of your kidneys called a pheochromocytoma. Or if you have a tumor in your pancreas called an insulinoma visit G voc glucagon.com/risk For safety information. This episode of The Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by cozy Earth and right now I'm looking at cozy earth.com to see what's going on. I got oh look at this bamboo pajama set for ladies. That jogger pants for ladies looks like plush lounge socks. That's one of Oprah's Favorite Things. There's the bath collection. We love the waffle towels, but there's also premium plush bath towels. Everything that you see here can be had for 40% off with the offer code juice box at checkout. Even the sheets now we use the bamboo sheets, you may choose different linens I don't know what you're going to love when you get to cozy earth.com But we sleep on bamboo sheets from cozy Earth. They are incredibly comfortable. And I bought them myself with my own money using my own offer code juice box at checkout 40% off is what I saved you can as well at cozy earth.com today's podcast is sponsored by the ever since CGM boasting a six month sensor. The ever sent CGM offers you these key advantages distinct on body vibe alerts with higher low, a consistent and exceptional accuracy over a six month period. And you only need two sensors per year. No longer will you have to carry your CGM supplies with you. You won't have to be concerned about your adhesive not lasting, accidentally knocking off a sensor or wasting a sensor when you have to replace your transmitter. That's right. There's no more weekly or bi weekly hassles of sensor changes. Not the Eversense CGM. It's implantable and it's accurate ever since cgm.com/juicebox, the Eversense CGM is the first and only long term CGM ever since sits comfortably right under the skin and your upper arm, and it lasts way longer than any other CGM sensor. Never again will you have to worry about your sensor falling off before the end of its life. So if you want an incredibly accurate CGM that can't get knocked off and won't fall off. You're looking for the ever since CGM ever since cgm.com/juicebox. You know.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 15:28
And I think another piece that adds into this, especially more recently is that a good majority of people are using some type of an algorithm driven pump. Yeah. And that brings in some adjustment to what the parents have learned how to navigate because they're with it 24/7, right every minute of every day, and they're looking at data, and they're analyzing it for adjustments and what to do and what works. And while school nurses have kids every day of the school week, their interactions with them are very momentary. They're right, they're not all the time. And so again, what they might have learned about something like treating a lower blood sugar, is there's a difference now with algorithms in how you treat and how quick you leave, how quickly and what amount you use in the same for highs. Maybe the pump is suggesting this amount, but you know a little bit better because of your experience. Those are things that, again, they technically have to be written down as a guiding post for the nurse to use. But they may shift and change through the course of the year, especially because kids grow.

Scott Benner 16:39
And even if they're not using an algorithm, they might be acting as one, not even knowing it, like oh, you know, correct after this meal, we always do a Temp Basal increase, or, you know, like, little adjustments to insulin, which in the end is what an algorithm is doing, making like, unseen adjustments. But these people might already know, like, Oh, I know that with popcorn, and this drink. She needs you know, X, Y, Z insulin, right? That's not going to be reflected in the orders that the doctor put together that said, like, you know, for every 10 carbs, it's a unit of insulin, right? Yeah, except for when she eats like this, or except after lunch, or I mean, after gym or something like that, like they might have? I mean, might they're definitely going to know something about this, you don't know. And then the touch point here is that you've put yourself in a position where if you're not being flexible as the school nurse, you are now in the power position, you're holding these people hostage, right? They're trying to do something with their with their health, you're saying no, you're not a doctor, you're not even their doctors. They don't know you, you know, I mean, you're the person at the school who's a school nurse, like that's a lovely job. And everyone's thrilled you're there. And thank god, you're there, because plenty of schools that don't even have nurses. But you can't become the I don't know the border guard and say, No, you're not allowed to do that, like I do this 24 hours a day when I'm not with you like why are you the you know, the end all be on this? I think that that's just important to hear if you're the school nurse, like, Oh, is that how that could feel? On the other side? I'm just trying to do the right thing. I'm following the orders here, right now. And

Jennifer Smith, CDE 18:20
I think too, because there's there's a lot to navigate in a school environment, right? There's a lot as you mentioned it before, that we don't really want kids to be consistently pulled from class, it decreases what they're therefore which is learning, right? And especially if that pull is always at the time of a class that's already kind of harder for the student or that they might be falling behind in because they're constantly being pulled from that class. So I think, you know, in using a lot of these tricks that as the parent or the caregiver, you've learned, you also have to think about it from the angle of the nurse as well, and the angle of your child in that we want to simplify as much as possible. So that, you know, little Lucy doesn't always have to go back and forth to the office four times a day to figure out what is typical coverage for this type of a meal. Maybe you don't feed that meal at school then, right? Maybe they're reserved for the weekends when you have the navigation tool, and you make the weekday a little bit more simplified. I mean, there are there are ways to work it on both angles. I think school nurses, they tried to do as well as they can in some school nurses don't even have coverage of just one school. They're not there all day. They might be navigating between five schools. Yeah,

Scott Benner 19:42
I've never met an ill intended school nurse. Right. Right. But I have dealt with some of them that were problematic for our life. Yeah. Oh, I'm, I'm quite sure. Yeah. So I know I've said this on the podcast in other places, but it very much fits here in second grade. My daughter had a standard time she'd go to the school nurse to have her blood sugar check. There were no CGM at that point. And she went every day, every day at this certain time. And then she'd come back. She was only gone for a couple of minutes, 10 minutes she was back, and we were on our way again. But she was falling behind significantly at math at like, really, really badly. And it, we didn't know why. And it wasn't till the following year, because her teacher carried over with her class. She went, she took took on the same class and third graders she hadn't second grade. And over the summer, she like literally called me and said, I know why Arden is struggling with math. And I was like, why is that she was while I was just sitting down and filling out my lesson plans and getting my book ready for next year. We are sending her to the nurse, right? Like two minutes before the math portion of the day. And she's missing the explanation every day, like every day, but she comes back and she puts her head down and tries to figure it out. She doesn't make you know, she doesn't say anything. But in a year and a half. Like we were literally I've joked about this before we thought like oh, maybe he's a little dumb. You know, like, like she was really she she was really struggling in math. And you know, it took a couple of years to like, get her caught back up again. But that wasn't the worst part. The worst part was that for years and years after that, Arden believed she was not good at math. Oh, but she is, you know, and it's taken a number of like now that she's in college has taken a number of advanced like, mathematics stuff that you look I look at and I go I don't understand why numbers and letters are on the same piece of paper. And like, what's that shape? But she gets that now but lived a long portion of her young life thinking?

Jennifer Smith, CDE 21:46
I'm just not good at that. I'm

Scott Benner 21:48
not good at this. Yeah. And that's just from that one decision. Let's send her every day at 9:45am. Right.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 21:53
And it was a decision that was we

Scott Benner 21:56
had to do it.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 21:57
You had to do it right. And it circulated around one piece of her life, which was diabetes is circulated around when we don't have a CGM. This is the time that we need to have a blood sugar or some visibility to what's happening. Probably it was coming into snack or maybe it was just before lunch or whatever was happening. But you have to kind of mold all of these things together to make it work for the child. Yeah,

Scott Benner 22:22
if you go through these, this list of people, please let my kids stay in class, do everything you can to let them stay in the classroom. One person says, if you have the ability to go do what you need to do in the classroom, like don't even make them come to your office. You know, also, you know, there are a lot of sick people in the nurse's office, right? And I'm not looking to get sick. The you don't I mean, like I don't want the cold is going around the building. Like don't bring me into the small room with all the sick people. If

Jennifer Smith, CDE 22:51
you don't everybody is vomiting, please. There's

Scott Benner 22:55
some kids, they drink a juice. They're like, I'm good. They're like now you gotta sit here. Now you're sitting there for 15 or 20 minutes. And you know, right. Also, psychologically, I'm always with sick people. Right? Like the kid you intersect in the nurse's office on Mondays? Not the same kid you see on Thursday. Correct? All your brain sees is that I'm always with sick people. Right? And am I sick? You don't I mean, right?

Jennifer Smith, CDE 23:19
There's making a connection for the child of I have diabetes, it must be an illness. I'm sick i n. You know, unfortunately, that kind of crosses over into a lot of them. You know, what they might hear in the doctor's office about being safe and being careful. And you know, you're more prone to getting ill and like, kids hear an awful lot even though they may not verbalize or question what they're hearing. But eventually it kind of starts to sink in. So that's a very good point to make. Honestly,

Scott Benner 23:52
when Arden got into high school, the we were at the meeting in the summertime and the nurses like where your daughter and I were going to be best friends. And I was like, Listen, I don't want my daughter in your office at all if we can help it right. Yeah, I don't. Don't be friendly. I mean, you can be friendly with her. But like, don't keep her there. You don't I mean, this isn't a club. She's like, got the kids hanging out. I'm like, no, no, they're at school. are hanging out with you? This is not the sick kid club. No, thank you. Like, like, but she meant it so positively sure, you know, and upbeat. And then then there's a pushback. And then we had to explain, you know, listen, in the summer before art and went to kindergarten, I went to the elementary school that was local to me where my son had already gone. So I was a person who they at least knew. I went into the office and they said, Hey, I'd like to set up the groundwork. You know, for my daughter being here with diabetes. And they said Your daughter's not here. I said, No, no, it should be here next year. And they laughed, like literally stood the office and laughed at me. I was like, No, I really think this is something we should be ahead of you Yeah, there's like, no, no, like, we're gonna get your 504 plan set up. It's gonna be fine, right? I was like, Okay, I don't know anything about it, Jenny. I was like, my kid had only had diabetes for a couple years. I'd never send a kid with diabetes through school. And they said, We're gonna have a 504 meeting. And I was like, great. So they bring me in a couple of weeks before school starts. If they sit down to give me a piece of paper, I'm not lying to you had five bullet points on it, I'm sure. And it was the most basic stuff. And they were like, This is the plan we're going to follow. And I looked at it, and then I got the laugh at them. You're like, I know, I said, if this is all you know about diabetes, my kid's gonna be dead in a month. Like so like, this isn't gonna do it. She's five, she weighs not very much her blood sugar bounces around a lot. CGM is weren't a thing yet. Like, you know, like, this is right. Using going to work, you know. So I went home. And I read, I think three different 504 plans that were available online. I think I got one from the ADEA. I got one from JDRF. I got one from somewhere else. I read over them. And then I cherry picked from them the things that I thought impacted her. And I built a 504 plan. I brought it back and this is the 504 plan. And they laughed at me. They're like, we're not doing all this. And I was like, oh, no, you are. And then we got into it. Right. I did not win that fight. And about whenever the spring was, you know, so a few months later, they had a system like we had Oregon come down at certain times, I was able to get that done. Check her blood sugar at this time. Bring her back before recess. Check her blood sugar before she goes outside for recess. Check her blood sugar before lunch, give her insulin, check her blood sugar two hours after lunch. I think that's about how I had it set up. So one day, this little boy comes into the nurse's office with a breathing problem. And they had to give them a breathing treatment. And it was a lot of like it was unexpected. Sure. And you know, a lot of running around I guess in the office a little bit. But it happened right before Arden's recess. So they just forgot Arden they were supposed to call down to have her come up. They didn't do the call. She's five, she just was like, right out on roles right out on the playground. Now, Scotty had a backup plan. Okay, so all the stuff that was set up, I had an alarm on my phone. So I know I'm supposed to hear from them. At this time. I give a little bit of leeway. But a couple minutes later, I'm like, I call the nurses office. I said, Hey, you didn't call me about art. And the nurse goes up. Oh, Arden and then hangs up the phone. I was like, Okay,

Jennifer Smith, CDE 27:39
so like, can you get in your car and you're driving, sat

Scott Benner 27:43
next to the phone going, Oh, my God, like just my heart, my throat. Oh, and I get a call back. Obviously about 10 minutes later, hey, it's us. Arden's fine, and I'm like, oh, yeah, she goes, and she tells me all about the kid with the breathing treatment. I'm like, fantastic. I said, where, you know, how's Arden doing? Well, she was low. And then goes on to tell me how she's on the top of one of those turtle like jungle gym things crawling around, and they tested her blood sugar. It was like 52. So I took that opportunity to say, look, that stuff I brought you in the 504 plan that you laughed at me about this is why it's there. Pretty important. Yeah, you know, and we use that opportunity to move forward. But it was a it was a growing experience for them. Because they finally were like, Oh, that guy's not crazy. The thing he said was gonna go wrong, actually went wrong. You know, and that was the beginning of the relationship. Then those two nurses and I all through elementary school, we were like, thick as thieves because they trusted me that right. But I was a soothsayer, I predicted the future. Right? You know, and, but we had such a great process. And then I'll tell you that the what we did then is when art and went to like middle school after that, I brought those nurses with me to meet the nurses from the middle school for the first time. That's a great idea. Because they sat there, they're like, whatever that guy says. Just do it. And like like getting a you don't and that built that I had built in confidence then with the new nurse. And then we did it again. At high school. I brought the middle school nice to the high school when the high school nurse started pushing back, that middle school nurse was like, Listen, I have never seen a kid with a stable or steady blood sugar's as this kid, like, listen to what he's saying, you know, but there's a lot or Jenny, like it was a ton. It's

Jennifer Smith, CDE 29:25
an enormous amount of work. And then when you've got schools that really do give a lot of pushback, no matter what information and what data you provide, to prove what you're trying to have written into their plan of care. I mean, that is a lot of the reason that, you know, I actually encourage people that you sit down with your endo and go through that and even get their signature on it because as you said early on, many times they're gonna say, Well, we have to call the doctor about that. But the doctor signatures at the bottom of that plan If you're more likely to decrease the need to call the doctor because clearly everything on this plan was already okayed by the doctor

Scott Benner 30:09
I have or had when Artem was in school. I don't know the sentence Exactly. But there was a sentence in the 504 plan that said, you know, these are all the rules, but decisions about food dosing, all that stuff are adjustable by the parents. Yeah, that was it. You know, another

Jennifer Smith, CDE 30:32
similar line that, again, something usual written on a lot of people's, as parents have final say, or final decision in dosing, meals, snacks, low treatments, all of that kind of stuff. This is the plan. But, you know, if questions, call the parent, the parent has the final say, it

Scott Benner 30:51
protects the nurse, honestly. And also, I think, allows the nurse to feel a little comfortable, because, I mean, I can put myself in their position, the doctor's orders, say, you know, three units for this, and I'm like, No, do four. And they're like, Oh, I'm gonna do put an extra unit and so on this kid, send it back to class, so they can pass out, right? And then I didn't know, you know, like, so it's a big deal to get that into your 504. If you can, right? This person says, Please be careful about how you talk to children. They are sensitive, they know a lot. Don't comment on their numbers, or the carbs on their plate. Don't scare them about high low blood sugars. Be patient with them, because their blood sugars can affect their moods. This lady also says please, please don't ask me to do more than I'm already doing. Like, I have enough on my plate till I'm doing the best I can. I think that's a big deal. They're like, don't scare the kids don't try to it is, you know, I don't know, take what you think, you know, and pass it on to them in a split second in passing moment when their blood sugars are all over the place. Correct.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 31:54
And I think from that judgment standpoint, it was this person said something about, you know, don't judge on the carb kind of thing. Don't judge on the food in general, right? That's not your job. As a school nurse, quite honestly, there's probably somebody else in the background, who's already assisting the family to navigate proper nutrition and an intake and everything that might be needed. And you know what, maybe the kid has a lot of really considerable food preferences, right? Maybe the only three different things at lunch, and that's what has to be sent. And maybe it is 80 grams of carbohydrate. And as a school nurse, you're like, well, their blood sugar will look better if they didn't eat so much carbohydrate, that's not your business, just not their

Scott Benner 32:34
blood sugar would look better if their pancreas was working, right. But a lot of ifs in there, the no shame thing comes up over and over again, with the feedback from people like please don't shame my kid. It's all hard enough already. Open communication, big deal. You know, like, let's go back and forth be on the same team? Why are we fighting with each other? Like, that one's fascinating. You know why, right? Like the nurse is protecting their professional life. And, you know, and you're trying to protect your kids health. And you know, that in the middle are these orders that are probably not going to work most of the time. So, you know, sucks? Could you help us with our 504 plan, so that, yeah, I'm throwing that in there for school nurses, like people don't know what the hell a 504 plan is, when their kids are diagnosed, usually, it'd be helpful for them, if you could walk them through it, tell them how the process works through the school, that kind of stuff.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 33:25
And if you've worked with somebody who has a system that's working really well with type one, and you have their 504, obviously, getting rid of all the personal information that might be in it, but maybe have those as a good example, for families who are new that you're working with and are questioning, I don't even know where to start with a 504 plan. Or maybe you have a list of sites of available examples to be able to provide them with. And then they can pick and choose because again, all of these 504 plans being very individualized, you're very likely to find one that is almost similar enough to what you're doing with your child. And you can start it as a template that it works better than somebody else's 504 plan that's like, you know, not eating very much, or whatever it is,

Scott Benner 34:12
yeah, and make little adjustments to fit you. And I also I like to say to, Don't be unreasonable in it. Because when you start being like, hey, you know, my kid really needs a Ferris wheel, you start making big asks, or like, you're trying to take advantage of this. And then you don't get taken seriously, because you look like you're, you're grabbing. You know, like, I think that's important. I also, I like to remind people that usually as the kids grow, there's something on your 504 plan that was super important in second grade, that doesn't matter in fourth grade anymore. And if you want to be a real hero at your 504 meeting, say oh, you know, like line three there, we can strike that you guys don't need to do that anymore. Like it feels like you're giving something back to them. You know, like there's one less thing for them to worry about. So, you know, I think that's a good idea too, especially

Jennifer Smith, CDE 34:58
as things like recess and whatnot change. I mean, my, my little guy has two to three recess sessions a day. And my not so little older child has only two recesses once he gets to middle school, he'll only have one recess a day. So all those things are, as you said, their points of navigation from one year to the next that may change based on schedule, and what's going on for that child. And there might be some new things, there might be several things that are able to be taken out. Yeah,

Scott Benner 35:28
two opportunities in that example, to not replicate out of a classroom, for example, you know, that kind of stuff. This person says, I, our school nurses, terrific, I have nothing bad to say, but here's why she's terrific. She'll like discreetly pop into my son's classroom, check on him for a second, make sure everything's alright, slipped back out again, instead of him leaving class and missing that class time. But she goes on and on. But I think what she's really saying here is she has a school nurse who's putting that kid in the same polling that kids health at the same level as the mom does, yes. Like, do you know what I mean? Like she's, that's that extra effort that you have to put in when you you have a kid with type one. And

Jennifer Smith, CDE 36:05
in today's world, with the technology that we have, it's lovely that the school nurses even just popping ahead in to just visibly see that the child looks like they're okay. But I've gotten a lot of families whose school nurses are absolutely able and willing to do like, like Dexcom has Dexcom follow, or they might be using something like sugar meat in which they can look and follow online, they can even make notes about what was what was used for a treatment or whatnot, which translates right over into the parents. So it's a it's almost a seamless communication. And there's a lot less texting and stuff that kind of can happen. i There are there are kids, teachers and classrooms and even nursing stations that have things like was it sugar pixel and the glucose just visit they might have the name on, you know, so they know which one they're looking at. And again, that means that the nurse doesn't necessarily have to get up out of her office. She's just visibly able to see where are things going. What's this next child's schedule look like? You know, from that standpoint, it can be useful tools, technology

Scott Benner 37:05
was brought up over and over again from people especially because a lot of people do get into that situation where I think I've seen it, I'm seeing it shift more over the last couple of years. But in the beginning was CGM. So for people who are listening who don't know a continuous glucose monitor the device that the kids wearing, it's reporting back their blood sugar in real time that you can see on a number of different devices, right, like phones, Android, Apple phones, iPads, stuff like that. There was a time where they would say, well, we don't want that data, because then it's a liability, because now I know if the kids low, and if I don't react well or I don't see it for some reason, or my phone's not near me. Now it's my fault if the kid has a low blood sugar. To me, that was a really strange way to think about it. But it is that was the initial pushback from from school nurses. Like, I'm not at fault, if I don't know. So don't tell me. Some nurses were like, Yeah, give me the information. I want that. And more and more. I am seeing nurses following kids on CGM in schools, just to watch a kid's blood sugar for a day or two, it would take so much of your anxiety away, you don't I mean, you'd see what's happening. You can make adjustments or in you know, in concert with the parents make adjustments and not have all the worries that you had before. So embrace the technology, for sure. Right?

Jennifer Smith, CDE 38:21
Learn a little bit about it. I mean, that might be an additional session that you end up spending with the parents to learn from them. What what is the technology doing, especially if again, like I mentioned before, they are using an algorithm type of pumping system, learn what's the system really doing? How does it act, because all of them are a little bit different, right? And so it's really important to understand what one child system might do that another one's not necessarily going to do the same way. Yeah,

Scott Benner 38:49
I have some stuff here from actual school nurses. It says I am a school nurse, but I'm also a type one parent. It's extremely hard to follow doctor's orders when you know that that's not the right thing to do for the student. Luckily, I am the school nurse for my son so I can do what I want. But it's very frustrating when having to follow the typical standard orders that don't fit for everyone with other students. Yeah, then that's something to really remember is that you might have a great school nurse who is right there with you. I don't know why they wouldn't say that though. Like why why why not just like whisper go, Hey, listen, you know, I'm stuck here. Let's fix the water. So I can give me a little more autonomy here to help you write another school nurse on the school nurse and also a mom of a type one. school nurses with diabetics just have to understand that each student's diabetes needs are different. Just like student's educational needs are different in the classroom as a parent with type two a type one. What I didn't understand until working as a nurse in school is that you are held to the doctor's orders. Yes, the parents know how to manage, they know how to manage better. They know how to help keep the numbers in check, but I've got to do what the doctor put So on that piece of paper, yeah, so that's really, it goes all back. It's that one sentence on the 504. Yeah. Would you say you put it eloquently and succinctly?

Jennifer Smith, CDE 40:10
Yeah, it's just parents have final say it's dosing, snacks, treatments, etc. Whatever you want to include in that statement is that follow the orders. But parents have final say

Scott Benner 40:20
this parent says, I would just love to know what the nurse needs from me. Yeah, like, I want to help you help my kid like, so if your hands are tied, or you're having trouble with something come to me and tell me that let's see if we can work it out together. Right? That's excellent. This person made your point from earlier, don't settle for the way things used to be done. Yeah, a lot has changed significantly for the better for type one diabetes, for kids for health and safety, embrace the new technology, try to dive into it. This is exactly everything you said. If you've been at this for a long time, learn how to use an iPad, if you don't know how you figured out the apps that you can track the kids on, help us to push our kids to take, you know, good control for themselves. Sometimes an outside caregiver can really help the transition to more in dependency, that's a good point. Like, you have an opportunity there, right? Because the parents might be butting heads with a kid. But all of a sudden, you know, what's that analogy? I always say like, you know, if your kids play baseball, and you're the coach and your kids the pitcher, you never go out and talk to your own kid, you know, send a different coach out there, right? Not gonna go well. So work with the parents, not against them be an ally, stand up for my kids. This was interesting. Oh, that's a great one. If the district is making some ridiculous policy, or school administrators aren't allowing you to do something like for instance, a remote monitor with a CGM, you could use your voice to stand up. You could say, Hey, I know this is the rule. But these people are right. This would be great. If we did this, you know,

Jennifer Smith, CDE 41:49
and bring in safety whenever you're right. Very likely what the parents are bringing up and that you know yourself. It's a safety consideration. And if you can prove that what they're asking for actually increases the safety and decreases the risk to the school. That's a hit point.

Scott Benner 42:07
One of the best moments for Arden in going through schools regarding her diabetes care. It's also one of the saddest moments I've experienced. So I came up with something that I think is it's episode for the podcast. It's I think that episode is called texting diabetes. And there was this day where I was in the house and Arden was upstairs. And she I could see on her CGM, she needed a little more insulin. And I was about to get up and walk upstairs and tell her and I just didn't feel like it now post lazy and I was like, I don't want to do this. I picked up my phone and I was like, hey, I need you to Bolus a half a unit and admitted to later she goes, okay. And then I was like, Oh my god. That was easy. That was so easy. To move again. And my brain started racing. I was like, it worked from here to upstairs. It would work from here to down the street at her friend's house. Schools not that much farther. It would work from here. Oh, wait a minute. And then I froze, because I had trouble doing it at first. But I had trouble doing it. Because it turns out when she was in the house, and I felt like oh, if something went wrong, I was there to help. Right? Yeah. When she's not with me, I didn't have that same comfort. But then suddenly, I was like, well at school. I mean, the nurses there they have glucagon. They know what to do. I've explained it 1000 times. Like, you know, Arden was never a seizure at school. Like I don't want that. But I bet she'd be okay. Right. And then I stretch my legs. I was like, alright, well, now we're gonna start doing it at school. Arden's blood sugar's were never so good. As when she and I are in concert, we're just managing right through through texting. It's the it's the unsung hero of diabetes, texting seriously. And you

Jennifer Smith, CDE 43:47
may have also had leeway then in terms of what she could have on her person. I know some schools are really strict. And even if doctor writes that it's okay, or whatever their protocol is that things like, especially the older school blood glucose meters, or like the PDM for the controller, or what's now the controller for Omnipod had to stay in the nurse's office, it couldn't even stay with the child. Right? And so in that case, texting diabetes is a great idea. But you're not going to get anywhere because the child no longer holds their product to you. Well, I

Scott Benner 44:27
had to what did I have to do? I had to get her phone set up as a medical device in her 504 plan. That was the first thing I had to accomplish. Then I had to get them to put her phone on the teachers Wi Fi. Oh, so that we had, you know, stage stable communication. And that came with we had to go to a meeting where they got to look at Arden and tell her like you're not allowed to use your phone during school. Like like nowadays, I don't think it matters. I honestly I think that things have changed so much since then that's probably laughable to kids, but She took it very seriously. Like I told her, I was like, Look, this is a thing they're letting us do. It's making your day much easier. Like, you know, it's nice to say to kids, like your health is better, but kids don't think about that day to day. I'm like, Look, your life is easier. You're not going to the nurse. You know, if you need a little bit of insulin, you and I are talking it takes a split second, instead of you having to go through this whole rigmarole like, just be cool. And don't use your phone at school, right? One day she came home so seriously, she was so earnest. She goes, we got out of class early today. I was like, great, because I opened Instagram, do you think I'm gonna get in trouble? I was like, Oh, honey, I don't think anybody's gonna know. So

Jennifer Smith, CDE 45:36
it was like after getting out of bed, it was

Scott Benner 45:38
done. It was just the day was over. But she's like, I did open it while I was on the Wi Fi. And I was like, what an opportunity. I wish a teacher could have seen how much it meant to her to have that access. You know what I mean? But yeah, those are the things we had to do. Because the regular school Wi Fi sucks. Most of your buildings are built out of bricks and blocks, and you're not going to get good signals in some places. And that's going to panic the hell out of you. You know, when you can see the blood sugar, see it see it all of a sudden, it's just gone. So school teachers Wi Fi. In the end, they were very cool about it. I had a really wonderful experience throughout art in school. But I want to say this too. I recognized early on. When I came in that day, you know that that before kindergarten started that to those people I looked at in my mind. Like, do you mean like you were that you did? Yeah, I know. I wasn't I know that pre planning was the right thing to do. But to them, it wasn't something that we're used to I look, I look like a crackpot. And so I spent a lot of time not looking crazy. And I and I found the best way to do that is you don't over explain. Because diabetes has so many variables and steps and intricacies and nooks and crannies, that when you just start talking about it, you sound nuts. Like, you know, maybe you're like You're like because if the insulin goes into soon, and then she gets active, that activity is gonna bring her insulin down, then she might have a seizure, she has a seat like you You sound crazy to other people you're not by the

Jennifer Smith, CDE 47:03
way, you're not it's like a it's like a flow of everything that you honestly don't know. Right. But it's in terms of what needs to be applied in the school setting. That's all they need to know.

Scott Benner 47:17
Yeah, I'll also tell you, this emails that you send to nurses or people in the office that go over about three or four sentences make you look crazy. Gets into manifesto types. Yeah, you're also seeing it as a, you know, I hate to say like, seeing it as a, you know, a marathon, not a sprint, because it sounds, you know, sounds sounds douchey. But like it it is like, right? Like, you're not trying to get all the information to them today. Like, you know, it's it's a slow process, you're given an out a little bit by a little bit, you're building a relationship, you don't want end their people to they're just at work, right? You know what I mean? Like, don't, don't beat the hell out of them. They're, they're not, they're not, you know, they're just at work, like you go to work to you don't want people lump of extra stuff for you to do on all day. So pick and choose and, and try to, you know, try to not ask for more than is really necessary. Right? You know, it's all you're looking for is for your kids blood sugar to be stable and to be able to like, react to emergencies,

Jennifer Smith, CDE 48:18
and to allow them to also stay in class as much as feasibly possible. Right. I mean, that's again, what they're there for.

Scott Benner 48:25
This person said, you know, please be compassionate show patients over and over again, I want to point out how thankful people were in the feedback for the nurses and all the things they do this one person says, I think the Joslin diabetes Center in Boston has school nurse training sessions of maybe twice a year. Oh, yeah, that may be your local hospital has something like that? Yeah. Do you have anything to add that you think we might have missed? No.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 48:49
But that's interesting. Along the same lines, if you are a school nurse, and in your area there is a pediatric endocrine practice are several of them. It may behoove you to actually call and see if any of them have class type of education for people with type one. And that you could very well get some good information by just attending even one of those classes. Yeah. Right. Because that's free information. And while it is your time, yeah.

Scott Benner 49:24
Also joining the Facebook group for the podcast. Even if you just lurk in there for a couple of weeks, your understanding will lift way up. I don't want to end on a sour note. But I do want to bring this up. There is a line to like, you have to know your place a little bit. So I don't remember I honestly don't remember what it was but in high school, art in school nurse had a question about her care plan that she didn't understand. And instead of asking me are Arden she called our doctor's office? Yeah, no, yeah. And then I yelled at her a lot on the phone. So That's not any of your business. Like that is not uncommon, by the way, I see a lot. That happens a lot. Like, I don't know what you think you're doing calling somebody's doctor, but don't do. Yeah, yeah. And I want to say to this episode comes very much from the perspective of people who are trying really hard, who were very involved. And you may be also involved as a school nurse with people who don't understand a damn thing about diabetes and aren't putting any effort into it. But you got to not be jaded when you get to the next person who is trying, like, right, like, those are two different situations. I don't know how to tell you to help those people. I really don't. But, you know, right. Anyway,

Jennifer Smith, CDE 50:42
outside of giving them information about where they can get better. Yeah, information, go

Scott Benner 50:46
check this out. Have you heard you know, like, there's probably nice little ways to drop that in there. But saying things like, your numbers are crazy. And you're gonna, like, that's doesn't work, it doesn't work for doctors, it's not going to work for your school nurse. And anyway, I appreciate all the great school nurses that my daughter's had over the years. They were all fantastic. In one way or another. I would say that any stumbling blocks we came upon. I stayed calm, they stayed calm, we got past them. You know, the worst thing you can do, in my opinion, as a parent, is be the person who, when you walk into the building, or when the phone rings, they think Oh, it's this one. Like you don't you don't want your comes Jenny. your loins? Yeah, like, you don't want to be that person. Like, it's no, it's definitely not gonna have a good ending anyway. And I think too, as

Jennifer Smith, CDE 51:35
a as kind of a last point, it's also, you know, your child has one thing, or maybe a couple of different health things to navigate. And in those, I guess, instances, you expect the school nurse to become really knowledgeable about that issue. And you have to think that the school nurse isn't just there to navigate kids who have type one diabetes, they're there to navigate a whole host, you know, allergy medications, dosing of specific things for for irritations and allergies are through their heads. Yeah, there is. And so you have to understand that while you're, your child's needs are absolutely important. There are other kids who have needs that are just as important to and so expecting to establish some type of schedule that obviously works based on what's happening for the school nurse, ya

Scott Benner 52:30
know, it's, there's, there's a lot to consider there's a lot of human beings involved a lot of pressure. And, you know, I think there's some grace has to come from all sides to be perfectly honest, you know, and in the end, you're trying to help the kid be healthier, happier, become educated, and not leave with some sort of a feeling that they're, you know, broken or a problem or, you know, that kind of thing. So, anyway, I appreciate when everybody does, and I appreciate you, Jenny. So I'll talk to you soon.

A huge thank you to one of today's sponsors, G voc glucagon, find out more about Chivo Capo pen at G Vogue glucagon.com forward slash juicebox. You spell that g VOKEGL. You see ag o n.com. Forward slash juicebox. I want to thank the ever since CGM for sponsoring this episode of The Juicebox Podcast and invite you to go to ever since cgm.com/juice box to learn more about this terrific device. You can head over now and just absorb everything that the website has to offer. And that way you'll know if ever since feels right for you. Ever since cgm.com/juice box. I'd like to thank cozy Earth for sponsoring this episode of The Juicebox Podcast and remind you that using my offer code juice box at checkout will save you 40% off of your entire order at cozy earth.com That's the sheets, the towels, the clothing, anything available on the website. If you or a loved one was just diagnosed with type one diabetes, and you're looking for some fresh perspective, the bold beginning series from the Juicebox Podcast is a terrific place to start. That series is with myself and Jenny Smith. Jenny is a CDC es a registered dietitian and a type one for over 35 years. And in the bowl beginning series Jenny and I are going to answer the questions that most people have after a type one diabetes diagnosis. The series begins at episode 698 In your podcast player, or you can go to juicebox podcast.com and click on bold beginnings in the menu. I know that Facebook has a bad reputation, but please give the private Facebook group for the Juicebox Podcast a hell The once over Juicebox Podcast, type one diabetes. The group now has 47,000 members in it, it gets 150 new members a day, it is completely free. And at the very least, you can watch other people talk about diabetes, and everybody is welcome type one type two gestational loved ones, everyone is welcome. Go up into the feature tab of the private Facebook group. And there you'll see lists upon lists of all of the management series that are available to you for free in the Juicebox Podcast, becoming a member of that group. I really think it will help you it will at least give you a community. You'll be able to kind of lurk around see what people are talking about. Pick up some tips and tricks. Maybe you can ask a question or offer some help Juicebox Podcast type on diabetes on Facebook. Thank you so much for listening. I'll be back soon with another episode of The Juicebox Podcast. The episode you just heard was professionally edited by wrong way recording. Wrong way recording.com

#1154 After Dark: Sterling Silver

Sterling has type 1 diabetes. WARNING: This conversation contains the topic of physical and sexual abuse.

+ Click for EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Scott Benner 0:00
Hello friends and welcome to episode 1154 of the Juicebox Podcast.

On today's show I'm going to be speaking with Sterling. She's 27 years old was diagnosed with type one diabetes at 23. She's a figure and commercial model. Her father was an Olympian. And at one point, Sterling was on her way to being a professional golfer. I want to let you all know up front that this conversation will involve physical and sexual abuse, so please be ready. While you're listening. Please remember that nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise, always consult a physician before making any changes to your health care plan or becoming bold with insulin. When you place your first order for ag one with my link, you'll get five free travel packs and a free year supply of vitamin D. Drink ag one.com/juice box. If you'd like to help with type one diabetes research and are a US resident you're in luck because the T one D exchange is looking for you. The T one D exchange is looking for people living with type one diabetes or their caregivers to fill out a quick survey T one D exchange.org/juicebox. You can help type one diabetes research right from your sofa and it'll just take 10 minutes T one d exchange.org/juicebox this episode of The Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by touched by type one touched by type one.org and find them on Facebook and Instagram touched by type one is an organization dedicated to helping people living with type one diabetes. And they have so many different programs that are doing just that check them out at touched by type one.org. Today's episode of The Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by Omni pod and the Omni pod five. Learn more and get started today at Omni pod.com/juice box. This episode of The Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by the ever sent CGM and implantable six month sensor is what you get with ever since. But you get so much more exceptional and consistent accuracy over six months, and distinct on body vibe alerts when you're high or low on body vibe alerts. You don't even know what that means. Do you ever since cgm.com/juicebox, go find out.

Sterling 2:34
My name is Sterling Hawkins and I am 27 years old. I was diagnosed at 23 in 2019 in January with type one diabetes. And I am I mean a summary. I'm a figure model my commercial model. I'm an art director and I manifest and that's just kind of how I get everything in life. So yeah.

Scott Benner 2:59
Excellent. Who named you? Was it for a superhero movie? Or like your name is terrific. I always think it when I say it.

Sterling 3:06
Yeah. My father, my dad named me and he named me based off the football player.

Scott Benner 3:13
Sterling Sharpe,

Sterling 3:15
yes. Because he really wanted boys. And he wanted to be a sports dad. And then he got two girls and he was like, Okay, we're still I'm still gonna be a sports dad. And I'm gonna name you that and then he did my sister Alon, which is he watched the Mulan movie and he's like, I like move on. But I'm gonna change it to an E instead. So

Scott Benner 3:41
that's what happened. Did he make you play sports?

Sterling 3:43
Oh, yes. I mean, we played tennis basketball. He was really into Serena and Venus Williams and he really thought as like to two black women and two black children. We could get better opportunity doing no sports that also didn't really have too many black people in it. So we did golf. And that's kind of what it dwindled down to was golf and we were we're headed serious. I was headed towards professional until I got diagnosed with diabetes. I got full ride scholarship to school for it. Wow. My my handicap was a plus one.

Scott Benner 4:21
Oh my god. I don't know what that means. But it sounds very impressive.

Sterling 4:26
It's impressive, but it definitely a long way from being anywhere in the top 10. But I was that that was kind of the the goal. My whole life. That's kind of how He raised us. He's an Olympian, too. He was in the Olympics in 1984 in the LA Olympics.

Scott Benner 4:44
Yeah, hurdles. No kidding.

Sterling 4:46
Yeah. So he got he got six plays because he actually hurt his knee. Going over one of the hurdles I don't know if it was that time but it he thought that they set it up incorrectly. So he hurt his knee during the Olympics.

Scott Benner 5:03
Oh, wow. Yeah. But by the way, because of the internet, this is fascinating. Sterling Hawkings was named the 2017 PacWest. Golfer of the

Sterling 5:15
year, I have a few news articles on me somewhere.

Scott Benner 5:19
That that's really interesting. Oh my gosh. And so, you and your talk while you're really talking? Yeah,

Sterling 5:25
yeah, I'm six one, but I'm mostly wearing heels most of the time. So I am six, five, which does not deter the five, six men, the five, six men. It doesn't stop them, they still come, they still come more so than the six foot men, the six foot men have a serious insecurity issue versus the five, six men throwing

Scott Benner 5:43
I'm going to tell you something that I'm gonna end up having to bleep out portions. But I just put up an episode with a blind woman. Yeah. Gets dick pics on dating. No. Yes. Oh. And they know, by the way, wow. Fascinating. Fascinating. Yeah.

Sterling 6:03
So it's like, it's like, she doesn't see it. But she knows because I'm writing that I sent it. And that's what's the exciting part?

Scott Benner 6:14
Yeah, I guess the assumption is, well, she's gonna have to show it to somebody to help like, anyway, I think that's a fascinating look into some men's like psyches. Yeah, I really do. And the same thing. So guys that are six, seven inches shorter than you come up to you with all the all the confidence in the world. And

Sterling 6:34
all the confidence without any type of respect.

Scott Benner 6:38
I was like, how does that happen? Um, because

Sterling 6:40
I've been I was in that. So I stopped going into the dating world after I only started going into the dating world. As surprising as this is as being a model. I only started this year, I was with my ex for about three and a half, four years. And he was the first one who even had the courage to ask me anything. And I just said, Yes, straight on the spot. I was like, Sure. And we lived together like six months after we dated. And we stayed through COVID together. And you know, he's a really great guy. But things just didn't quite work out the way that I had wanted. And I was like, Okay, well, I've never dated. So let's try that. And then I'm like, let's not do that. Again.

Scott Benner 7:22
I don't think you can give up after one tries throwing, oh,

Sterling 7:25
it was 250 Man I've talked to so try, but I, you know, I use my dad's diligence of doing 200% into something and I really did that. And I said, you know, I'm gonna take a break now.

Scott Benner 7:39
There is there is really something to it. My wife is I mean, five, nine. And that's not compared to you not tall. But compared to most women I meet the course of the day, she's tall. And she told me that she's like, boys like shied away from her constantly. All the guys, all the guys, this is not good for me. But all the guys she was looking for generally speaking, like we're scared to talk to her.

Sterling 8:02
Yeah, they're just they're intimidated when they know that I I'm really independent art and my dad grew up super independent. So I don't really take like, BS from anyone. And, you know, it's hard to get through to me. So it's like, it's not worth it. You know, so you know, being a model, and then having a sense of self to having a mortality stand and ground and being also very serious, like the intention to marry. whether, you know, through dating, it's like that seriousness, intention, is what I'm looking for. In some people, most people are not looking for that. And I've been through the age ranges I've been from I've dated people who are like, I've talked to people who are 23. And I've talked to people who are 36, which is, you know, on both spectrums of my age, and I just haven't quite like, figured out what area of group is best for me because they're all similar. Do you

Scott Benner 8:59
do you think people look at you like a trophy? Because you're, you're different because you're taller? Like, is that like, that is an example like you think, Oh, wow, I'll see if I can't get a tall girl. Or like, Do you know what I mean? Like, do you think that happens? Do you have any feelings for what happens? Yeah.

Sterling 9:15
Yeah, I mean, I think that definitely happens. I think, like, it's the idea that I'm not because even people and even men who are looking for relationships, they don't see me as a relationship. They see me as someone who is a trophy in that way. It was interesting when I first started, you know, going and talking to these dates. I only I actually only went on seven dates in the first month. Like I actually went out after that I didn't go out because one, you know, men were too intimidated to go out with me. They call it castering. Nowadays, when they say oh yeah, I'll take you out. Oh, yeah, let's do this. We can ride in my car and I'm like, okay, when and they're like, sometime

Scott Benner 9:59
at some For you kidding. Well, you're you're also you're unique looking. And you're pretty, but you're like, you don't mean like there's like, I don't know this Yeah. Into my psyche. Yeah. But you're unique and pretty at the same time. Yeah. Like, like, I don't like I don't look you in the face and think, oh my gosh, like, you've got to, like Sunday. Yeah. That that that kind of feeling. Yeah. Makes sense to you. Yeah.

Sterling 10:22
Yeah, exactly. I'm sure I'm sure isn't day has been through a similar run. So I should probably hold on to Tom Holland so fast. Like, this is like, I'm ready to get married.

Scott Benner 10:33
This boy is talking to me.

Sterling 10:37
Like that, it's not hard to get to me. It's just being confident and also getting to know me, I think a lot of these guys like, I do mostly show my art direction. Like, on my dating apps, or like, in person or anything, I mostly show my art. They go towards my modeling instead. And then they're like, how did you get into modeling? And I'm like, Well, do you want to actually hear the whole story about, you know, how I was raped as a child and molested through my whole life. And like, I couldn't wear clothes. And I thought I looked like a boy. And you know, like, going through this whole iteration. And then at the end of all of that, you know, and being like, I am naked in front of people because I wanted to take power in my body and myself. And I thought, you know, I'm uncomfortable about this, so I should do it. And at the end of it, they're like, Wow, you're just really pretty.

Scott Benner 11:24
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Sterling 13:49
Wow. And that's that's the end of the conversation there. I'm like, great. Thank you. It sounds like more than once. Thank you. Thank you for letting me know.

Scott Benner 13:57
Well, Sterling, I I'm going to ask you a question that I guess because you brought it up and you took me by surprise. You know, before we started talking, you're like, you know, how do you want this conversation? I said, Just tell your story. And you said it could get dark and I was like that's fine. I didn't know it was gonna get that dark. You don't worry. It's just not my I didn't start a diabetes podcast thinking I'd have conversations like this, but I certainly have had a number of them. So what do you mean, what happened? Like what happened when you were a child? Yeah,

Sterling 14:27
so I am so open to talking about this. And like before I even start is the reason why is because I wanted to be calm. And my goal is to be able to motivate people in the world. And to be able to do that you got to be vulnerable. And so I've been really learning about this healing journey and just talking about it more so that I can resonate with people. Because a lot of people look at me and they're like, Oh, you're so thin. You're so x, y z you know, and they don't know if they don't know how diabetes until they see my pump now that I have or they don't know my story until I told them that I was actually 50 pounds heavier, you know. And so, with that, that's kind of my intention when I tell people so I'm open to any questions or anything. But what happened was younger. My sister I think was about three, I was about five. And it was actually our we lived in a neighborhood. That was a cul de sac. And we had a babysitter who was one of my childhood friends who's unfortunately addicted to cocaine, and like all of that now, because his whole entire life was awful. But we grew up with her and she, she babysat us. And eventually, she, you know, I don't know how descriptive but just, she would basically physically abused me or my sister, if we didn't do what she said she would line us up outside the room, and like, I would go into the room. And then whatever, I had to do whatever she told me to do, and then she'd be like, go get your sister. And if I didn't listen, she would, you know, punish me. She would send my sister on me. So my sister was too young, like, I was too young to understand, but my sister was even younger. So she would prompt my sister to chase me on the room and like, hit me with toy trains. Like, gosh, so I would be running for my life crying, and I'd be telling her to please save me as a child, and she would just be laughing, and she thought it was hilarious.

Scott Benner 16:21
How much older was she than you?

Sterling 16:23
She was probably 16. Okay. So much, much older. Yeah. So she,

Scott Benner 16:30
she'd abused you physically have the two of you abused each other physically? And then she asked you to perform sexual acts on her. That's right. Yes. Well, yeah. So how long did that go on for?

Sterling 16:43
I don't remember. I mean, unfortunately, with a lot of my childhood stuff, I only remember, blips up until 20, up until I was 20. Because my brain just kind of turned everything off. So I don't know how long it went for or went on for. I mean, we stayed at that house for quite some time, I didn't fully tell my family until I was 23. Because I just didn't want like, obviously, the victim's point of view is not telling the family because you don't want them to worry, because you're already tired. So that's kind of how I was when I was growing up. I was very closeted, like I was very nonverbal. And a part of me like so I did get diagnosed with the possibility of ASD and ADHD, which also doesn't help my dating life. But, but I got diagnosed with those two, and I'm just not sure if the correlation is is with the trauma because it was so young, but there's nothing to compare to what what what I was like before that. Sure. And so I just was very quiet growing up, I have a lot of sensory issues. And yeah, it was just a very different person growing up. I was I felt like I looked like a guy like I felt super ugly. I felt I was 50 pounds heavier. And I couldn't figure out ever How to lose that weight. When

Scott Benner 18:05
you were 50 pounds heavier than you are now. How tall are you?

Sterling 18:08
I was probably like 511. I mean, I've been six foot like I'm 11 Six foot? Yeah, in high school, I guess.

Scott Benner 18:16
Would you call it like extra weight? Was it like strength? No, it was like

Sterling 18:21
bigger weight. Like I have all the stretch marks and you know, the tiger marks we call them from losing all of that weight. After I turned I think after I turned 19 I started I lost like 20 pounds, which was crazy for me to see. And then after that I kind of lost a few more. And then you know now I'm like around 170. So I used to be there and to 15 to 20. And I'm like at 170. So,

Scott Benner 18:50
how how old were you? You said you were in your late 20s When you are in your 20s Excuse me when you told your family about what happened with the babysitter but did you ever tell anyone else did you and your sister ever speak about it?

Sterling 19:04
No. My sister actually unfortunately for for her. She didn't remember it. But she did get Bell's palsy. She had Bell's palsy when she was very little. And I think it was the stress of that. But her she didn't know and after that she I think fully blocked it out to the point where we've talked a little bit about this or I've talked to my mom about this but she would just kind of play down or even the mullah molestation from other people like I've been felt up by homeless men. Even that growing up she'd be like, I don't see the problem.

Scott Benner 19:37
When you were younger that happened to you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Throughout my

Sterling 19:42
throughout my life up until I like regained. My sense of self was been around like 2223 Like when I got diagnosed with diabetes that changed my life. So like all the way up until 20 People would like, like in high school, they would come up and grab my breasts. You know, it wasn't like I was wearing anything revealing I would never I would wear like long jeans and like, obviously very closed off. But they would come up and grab me. I was very innocent and like with the, the homeless man situation. For some reason, it's kind of interesting. But for some reason, I was a very loving person, even though I didn't like to be touched. And so I was like, I always gave out candies and gifts to random strangers. And people. I don't know why I do this, but I still do this to this day. And I did that for him. This one guy, and he was like, I can't have candy. I'm diabetic. And he's like, but can I have a hug from you? And like, he wouldn't let me go. And he just felt me all the way up. And this was back when I was 13. Or 14, this was actually Christmas Eve, which didn't make it any better. But you know, I had a hard time telling that story. Because it's something that I decided to let him do to me. And I didn't realize, you know, like, don't touch strangers.

Scott Benner 20:57
I have two questions. Was it difficult to know that you had this experience? And your sister couldn't remember it? It wasn't

Sterling 21:04
difficult, because I didn't know, back then I didn't know what was different. So I mean, it wasn't a shared experience in the way of this is different from my normal life. I don't know how to explain that. It's just like, I don't remember anything before that. So I thought that was normal normal for a very long time, because I didn't understand what it meant to not be normal. You know,

Scott Benner 21:30
that. My My other question is, did your parents I don't know, I never asked if you grew up with two parents? Or how you how you grew up? It didn't No one notice. Like, or were they just in a situation where they had to use this babysitter, and they didn't have any other options? Like did no one notice you were unhappy? Or that you didn't you already mean the kind site?

Sterling 21:50
Yeah, so that's the other side of, you know, the issues that arose. And we don't really talk about this much. But I don't mind talking about podcasts, because I do want to have conversations about this is like my family life growing up was was not great at all. And unfortunately, my mom was getting off depression medication. And so she for 12 years, since I was like, nine was erratic, you know, all the way up until we were like 19. And it was just it, there was no, there was no reason for them to observe me, or ask me because the way that I was raised was very in, like, my dad wanted me to like, and my, you know, my sister to live vicarious. Like, he wanted to live vicariously through us. And so a sports you know, we never went, I didn't get to go to birthday parties growing up, I didn't really hang out with people growing up. You know, with my mom's side, it was a it was a battle of who, who loved her and who loved us. And you know, it was, it was a battle every single day to me kind of being the scapegoat. I have been called every single name under the sun, by my family on a daily basis. So they

Scott Benner 23:07
were either ignoring you or trying to turn you into something that they thought was gonna make money. Yeah,

Sterling 23:12
it was more like, you know, my dad's thinking of intention was like, Oh, she's gonna get a scholarship. And she just has this view of me of us being somewhere. I don't know if it was to make money or not. He doesn't really talk much about that. Or I didn't really notice. But

Scott Benner 23:30
my my kid played college sports, and I thought of it as making money. Yeah, I thought I thought of it as saving money. That's

Sterling 23:39
right. That's that's kind of how my dad thought, you know, it was saving money. Even though golf is very expensive.

Scott Benner 23:47
Yeah, I know. It's funny, like, we're gonna save money if this works out. If it doesn't work out, then we'll just keep carrying around your very expensive golf clubs and all the green fees and everything. That's, that's right.

Sterling 23:58
Yeah, yeah, he has a very different point of view, like my family right now, as a disclaimer, like, we're better now. Great. Um, you know, it's, it's a better situation, because I'm not necessarily living there. But

Scott Benner 24:11
it's much easier to get along with that, but you don't say.

Sterling 24:17
That's right. That's right.

Scott Benner 24:18
Do you have any other autoimmune issues? So

Sterling 24:21
I have hormonal issues. I don't know of any other autoimmune. The hormones like I have to take birth control, I had to actually got an IUD. Because right before I fully became diagnosed, which is like, you know, after my honeymoon is what I'm considering that which was three years later. Yeah. My body just like started with my periods, like halfway through for like, two weeks at a time, like my body would just drag so I felt like a stroke patient.

Scott Benner 24:52
Yeah. Where you had, like very heavy periods, or were they longer or

Sterling 24:59
Yeah, They're very heavy, they were very heavy, but it got to the point where like they would be late. And like my body and my feet would just like numb up. And so I had to go on something or, you know, I couldn't go work out I had anemia on top of that, so that's kind of the only auto immune that I have, like are the hormonal thing. I don't have any others that I know of like, I'm not even lactose. That was something that I joked around with with my sister when I first got diagnosed is like I'm not lactose you are. At least I have that on me. You know?

Scott Benner 25:38
And I'm winning.

Sterling 25:42
Yeah, exactly. I got that one on you. But that's the like, I don't think I have celiac. I've never experienced any type of things like that. Yeah, so I think that's like the only one that I know of that is that is at least prevalent right now.

Scott Benner 26:00
Check this out. ADHD has been related to autoimmune diseases, with epidemiological studies reporting positive within individual associations with several specific autoimmune disorders such as celiac ulcerative colitis, psoriasis. I can I can ever say this, this one Ankylosing Spondylitis type one diabetes. So I will tell you that a lot of people I talked to seem to have ADHD in their family when they when they have like, other autoimmune stuff.

Sterling 26:29
Yes, yes. And I only found out I had ADHD and probably ASD back in November of this last year. Okay, now that I'm so glad that I, you know, a lot of people told me to not seek out this information. They were like, just be quirky. And I for me personally to anybody, like I always say learn as much as you can about yourself because then you can at least utilize tools that can help you get through life and help you recognize why you do some things you know, my dad is definitely undiagnosed ADHD didn't know this growing up because you know, living with someone who has ADHD How can you know any different from the family you live with? You know, he he tends to, to move or his his emotions go up and down a lot, because I don't he doesn't understand. I think why he is the way he is. I'm really glad that I got diagnosed because it helps me see like, what, you know why I act certain ways why I'm so forgetful sometimes. Why can be a little erratic here and there hyper fixated, like, especially on people or crushes, and understanding that too. But yeah, that's really fascinating.

Scott Benner 27:42
So my last question around that stuff that I'm going to talk about how you figured out you had diabetes, but are there other people in your family lines that have type one?

Sterling 27:51
No, no, but not a single person? Okay. Oh,

Scott Benner 27:55
all right. Well, then, how did you figure out you had type one?

Sterling 27:58
So I figured I had type one, because I was I mean, I always tell people, I was like, I was going blind. Oh, you're going blurry. I

Scott Benner 28:06
that will make you Yeah, after right?

Sterling 28:09
That's, that's right. That's right. I was I was going to the bathroom a lot. I unfortunately, like, you know, I've also had a very terrible friendship life growing up as well. And it was, my friend actually kicked me out of her house a week before school was about to start. And it was super rainy season. And I, we found a place finally, and I was so happy. And I was like really happy. I was losing weight. Because I was like, Oh my gosh, I'm losing weight. I don't know how maybe it's because of depression. That will do it. And I was like, I'm losing weight and all of this. And I started going to the bathroom more like I couldn't keep it on my food. And I was driving. And I was actually like, blurry eyed driving, which really scared me. Luckily, my sister was there, I believe, and she had to drive us home. But finally that night, it was kind of sucky because the cars were not working. Both her cars like had broken down for some reason, and it was pouring down rain and I had to get to the ER and I was like, what is happening? And we had to kind of push the cars to get them to go to get one of the cars to go and we finally go to the ER and of course, you know, everyone that was there was like your blood sugars are high, but we can't help you because we're closing soon. So are like the it's just the er It's the what do you not the emergency room the place you go to before

Scott Benner 29:33
that? Of like, like urgent care or something like that?

Sterling 29:37
Urgent Care? Yes. Urgent Care. So we went to urgent care and the people that were there were like your blood sugars are high. I think it was like 315 which is is not terrible.

Scott Benner 29:50
That's funny. Now you're like,

Sterling 29:51
you're like I've heard other people.

Scott Benner 29:55
Well, it's sort of you probably weren't in decay yet. Or did they say you were I

Sterling 29:59
was Ain't no I wasn't in DK. I mean, I don't think so I really started in Fallout or anything. No one's but the thing is, is when I went to er, all the people that were kind of treating me were like, you're way too skinny to be diabetic, like that was all the nurses. Yeah. So no one was actually giving me any information. They're just like, you're way too skinny to be diabetic. And even before then I like had an inkling, I didn't really know about diabetes, but I just looked at my mom, I'm really good intuitively. And I just looked at her. I said, I think I have diabetes. And she's like, What makes you think that? And I said, I don't know. Well, I don't know. I didn't look it up. But I'm like, I think I have diabetes. I don't know what that means. And then they told me I had diabetes. I'm always

Scott Benner 30:44
interested when people like make that leap. Because there's some information in your head from the past. You just don't know what it is. And you start putting things together. You don't even know why so many people play that it's a it's very interesting. So how long were you in the hospital for

Sterling 30:59
two days, I was in the hospital. And we were just kind of sitting like I was sitting there. I always say, if you can help not go into the hospital, don't go. If you can figure it out yourself, just don't go because you don't get any rest in the hospital. Like they have waking me up at all different hours. And like when you're diagnosed with diabetes, you have no idea what that means. Because especially as an adult, most people are not going to explain it to you. Yeah, and I'm sure you've heard that a lot from everyone. And it's just like, You need to eat this food and right now. And if you don't eat this food, you're gonna pass out and you're like, what does that even mean? You're like, we just gave you insulin. I'm like, but what does that mean? They're like, doesn't matter. You need to eat this food. Yeah, nobody's

Scott Benner 31:41
really. Nobody's explaining anything to you. Did you have family around you at that point? Or were you on your own at the hospital?

Sterling 31:47
So I have my mother with me, you know, with my family situation growing up, like, unfortunately, for the first four years of my diabetes, no one in my family, like, decided to learn about it. So I was all on my own. And it was really, really hard. I did have my ex as was basically my caretaker. He knows much more. My dad pretends to ignore it. He loves ignoring it. And he's never been to a single like hospital visit. My mom goes once in a while with me to do these things. But I'm mostly like, on my own with most of this stuff.

Scott Benner 32:26
What would you say your level of understanding was in the first year? Oh,

Sterling 32:31
you know, like, compared to what I've known since I've met you guys and met the people who directed me to you and your podcast? Probably like 10%. Wow. Because I went on keto, like six months after I became Insomniac because no one explained to me how to use insulin. Even no one told me that Oh, no one told me to Pre-Bolus to how many what's my ratios to sensitivity? I don't I didn't know what any of that was man. And

Scott Benner 32:59
so were you not sleeping because you were fighting with blood sugars because you were scared to sleep.

Sterling 33:05
I was really scared to sleep. So I had a low. So I took and I've heard this story once before with the person who went running and obviously a lot of adults are Ladas. But it's like I took insulin because I wasn't fearful at that point of insulin because I was like, Oh, it brings me down to a certain level. And I didn't know I was honeymooning for three and three years, you know. And I took some insulin and decided to walk up a hill in San Francisco. And all of a sudden, all the dogs in the park ran up to me, and were jumping on me. And I was like, What are you guys doing? Like what's happening? And then it hit me. I was doing my best to tell them what are some of the owners? I was like, Do you have food? Or do you have a house near here? Like I have nothing because I didn't know to hold anything around me. They didn't told me tell me that they didn't teach me any of that stuff. And like all these people thought I was crazy. And they're like, why are you guys why are you talking to me? And they weren't helping me. And then one lady was like, there's a food store down the street. I can't believe I made it to the food store. I was at 40 at that point

Scott Benner 34:05
and shopping. Did you have a basket? Or were you? Did you

Sterling 34:08
know I was sitting in a park on the top of the San Francisco Hill?

Scott Benner 34:12
She grabbed some food just yet why you really did last for a while. How long do you think that all took? Or do you not have a feeling for it? What do you mean? What would you say from when you started walking and found people to when you actually could eat? How long do you think it was?

Sterling 34:26
It was probably like it took me 15 minutes to walk up the hill. I sat down for about 10 And then all the dogs are jumping on me about that point. You know like they were they could figure it out before I did.

Scott Benner 34:42
They were diabetes service dogs in training apparently.

Sterling 34:44
That's That's right. That's right. They're all really confused. And I was like, I love you all. And that's why I'm at the dog park but I don't want you to jump on

Scott Benner 34:52
me also. None of those people at the dog park have ever seen a movie when a dog looks worried you have to be worried that wasn't something like a I don't know. Well, nobody understood. I mean, you didn't understand you had it you didn't understand. So it's hard to.

Sterling 35:06
Yeah, I mean, you know, like, I think it was that in San Francisco, there's a lot of mentally ill people, and you can look normal and be mentally ill. And it's a lot of schizophrenia. And so the way I was acting, I basically tell people now when my blood sugars are low, I'm a drunk person without the benefits. Yeah, so I usually tell people that now, but that's basically how I was acting, because all I knew to think was in my primal brain was like, I need food. Like, I need food. And so I just kept telling people, like, I need food. And I couldn't coherently explain that. And they didn't get it. And the only lady who kind of got it just pointed me in the direction of a store. And she's like, there's a store down there. So I had to walk to the store. I don't know how I did that on like a 40. Blood sugar.

Scott Benner 35:52
Yeah. You know, Sterling, I started writing a blog in like 2007. And about diabetes. And one of the things that got me to do that was a news story about a man who got off a commuter train, and passed out. And he No one knows exactly how long he was lying there. But then the morning commuters came in, and they were going past them, like he's lying, like facedown in like a stone driveway. And people are mocking him for being drunk. And it took one person who had a family member with type one to recognize the low blood sugar incident and probably save the guy's life. And I started writing a blog thinking, well, maybe I'll educate people. And one day if my daughter falls over, someone might have like, it's a weird thought. But like, someone might have read the blog and known or something like that. It was like literally one of the reasons that I started writing a blog. But that's exactly what happened to you. You look disjointed, because you're low and people can't tell the difference. And people are busy. And like you said, other people around there might give off a mentally ill vibe to begin with. So they're probably not looking to get too involved. And there you go. And just by luck, you've made it to that food. That's pretty pretty.

Sterling 37:05
I did I really don't know how. But that scared me. And I and no one still explained to me diabetes, and like, even my endo was telling me hormones don't affect your diabetes, and she was a woman.

Scott Benner 37:20
Well, she was wrong about that. Oh, yeah, she

Sterling 37:22
was I was like, This is not right. I know my body. Like, I feel like something is weird. Something's definitely off during different times in my month.

Scott Benner 37:29
Yeah, you're using more or less insulin, and you're not even you're not even doing anything purposefully. So so what I mean, obviously, all these experiences lead you out to try to find your own answer. So how do you find them for yourself? So

Sterling 37:42
I became an insomniac, and I couldn't sleep through the night and I was eating pizza, and I was eating all of this stuff. And then I have my opinion on this, and it has changed or accidentally, but I found the only people I found was the Bernstein diet people. And so I went full keto. For four years, I'm still keto. But that's that's kind of how I survived was like well to take, I need to take less insulin. So the way to take less insulin is to eat less carbs. And that's the only way I knew how to even manage my diabetes on the day to day. Yeah, and I didn't even realized my diabetes wasn't even in full swing or effect until I had reached out to you guys and had been a part of the like, been listening to the podcast. And I was like, wow, I didn't even know I wasn't even like fully diabetic until that year, until last year. And that was really hard for me to kind of have to take in. Because I thought I was like already dealing with things on hardmode. And then I was like, wow, I just got like re diagnosed mentally. And it really sent me into a spiral and depression. I think that was like throughout all the things that kind of happened through my whole life. For some reason, I always had like a glimmer of hope, even though I couldn't see there was no light and a darkness world that I lived in since from five to like 21 but for some reason diabetes got me and like, that was the first time I thought about suicide. Really. And yeah, and it just like I was like, I can't believe I can't, like do this because I didn't understand much about it. And I felt like I couldn't even go walking. I felt like I couldn't do anything, because I didn't understand it. And then I my whole world had changed. And then I started listening like, I think I didn't go outside of my home for like two weeks. I like didn't take any figure modeling jobs. I didn't take any any type of commercial jobs like and I just sat there and I was just listening for hours to your podcast with you and Jenny, because I just I realized I didn't understand anything and and it was really overwhelming, honestly, to take in all that information, but I just decided to take as much as I could because, you know my dad had raised us to ask questions why? And so I was like, I gotta ask questions why? I know well, because I realized that my doctors weren't telling me or providing me with the information I needed. Yeah,

Scott Benner 40:05
I mean, good for you because you got desperate. And you started to panic a little bit. I mean, if you're starting to think about hurting yourself, then you're you're you're running out of ideas in your head about what to do. And diving into something like that, like you said, couldn't have been easy. And you did it. So that's really like, like weight of, like, take control for yourself. That's amazing. Also, you named the episode a couple of minutes ago, named the episode you named your episode a couple of minutes ago. Oh, what is my episode name? Well, it's got to be an after dark because of the story you told about growing up. But it's going to be it's gonna be called Hard Mode. I love it. Yeah. Well, because I love that whole life seems to be in hard mode. I'm hoping we're getting you to like, easy at some point. Let's see, as we keep talking,

Sterling 40:46
I know. Yeah, I know. Yeah. I mean, definitely we can I mean, we can go into my art and stuff, because that's what saved me.

Scott Benner 40:53
Yeah, no, I want to hear about it. I really do. But so you, you kind of absorbed the the management episodes of the podcast, and you got an idea of what you were doing. I also want to point out that you just told a story that exactly mimics my expectation of why people would die with type one who have adopted a very low carb lifestyle, why they're so protective of it, and, and why they almost proselytize about it. Like, like that whole story, you just told like, I'm not gonna go back over it again. But being desperate, not knowing what you're doing, having scary health issues. And then recognizing if I really take in almost no carbs, I will use a very little bit of insulin, and it will minimize those other issues. Like if you don't know how to use insulin, that is the only answer you can get to. Like, as that's your story. And so I've always maintained that I think that's how it happens. Because listen, I don't honestly, I hope people understand by now I've been doing this podcast for a long time, I don't really care how people eat, I don't care how you live it all to be perfectly honest. But the thing that I'm always interested in is when somebody who's newer diagnosed is in that position you are in, they're like, I don't know what to do. And my blood sugars are spiking, and they're getting low. And then a person who has found keto or very low carb or something like that, they come in, like, you have to do it like this. Like, they talk about it. Like it is life itself. And they're so protective of the idea. And, and that's why because it saved their life. They were Yeah, right. And that's why it becomes such an important thing. And and it feels like you really need to tell other people about it. But then you but you got more information at but you stayed low carb, so you like the lifestyle, but you're better at using your insulin now.

Sterling 42:45
So I so actually, before I even found your guys's podcast, I was reaching out to the Bernstein's groups and not saying a nice things, just saying factual things. No one helps me, no one came to my rescue. Sorry. And it was really tough to kind of bear that too. Because I was like, I thought you guys wanted to help people keep low blood sugars and all this stuff. I mean, there's a lot of propaganda where if your blood sugars aren't perfectly at 80 all the time, they look down on you. And that was really tough for me for a long time. Because that was all I knew was that group and me I didn't really know any other diabetics, someone finally like a light shine. She was a nurse and she was like, check out you know, you should check out these groups. I am staying the reason why I've stayed keto. I don't really want to be keto. But I've had so much PTSD with all of this stuff, that it's just a fear based thing at this point. I do want to be a little more freer with my carbs and like what I want to eat like I want to eat pork. Who says and I do want to eat pizza again. It's just understanding what I didn't understand it's going to take maybe a few years or two kind of free to gamble is like, yeah, because right now I'm actually on so I got on looping because my PDM stopped working. So I'm looping now.

Scott Benner 44:06
That's the that's the most interesting pathway to that you're like, Oh, my PDM doesn't work. I'll just start looping. Yeah,

Sterling 44:13
actually in my neighborhood, or in my, in my city in San Jose, there is a woman who works at tide pool. She I had talked to her last year to several times and then my PDM wasn't working at 12 o'clock at night. And my pump was about to go out. And I was already stressed out about being on a pump. It was like three days into being on a POM four days in. And I was like Well, great. This is the perfect scenario. And then she contacted me and they were telling me that they couldn't even send my PDM until July 5 Because it was July 4 Oh the holiday and I was like I had to wait two days Okay, and not guaranteed. So you mean I just contacted I was like can you put me on loop because I just the PDM just like broke.

Scott Benner 44:58
Can you do me a favor? Can you tell me her First name, I'll bleep it out because I feel like I know her and that she's been on the podcast. It's but she doesn't know you guys. Okay, then that's not the person I was thinking of. Okay. All right,

Sterling 45:09
I was one I really want her to like, listen to you guys, because she doesn't actually know you guys. She relies solely on on looping. She does the Bolus with her daughter. But it's really interesting because her daughter is on the opposite spectrum. She her daughter's eating 300 carbs a day. Yeah,

Scott Benner 45:24
I know. That's, listen,

Sterling 45:26
it's nice to see,

Scott Benner 45:27
your story is like you're first of all, you're very good at telling your story. And it's terrific. And I am having. So somebody's gonna send me an email. It says that this is creepy. But I really want to tell you how I feel like it's, I know this is crazy. But I you know, I'm getting ready to talk to you. I've like your Instagrams up in front of me and like stuff like that. And you are, I don't know. You don't look the way you feel about yourself. And you don't look like you're struggling. And it's so disjointed to hear your story then look at your picture because it doesn't feel like you're talking about the person I'm looking at. I was one I was wondering if that ever felt that way to you?

Sterling 46:13
Yeah, my dad raised us so you know, most people would never guess and every time I tell them like I do probably have ASD and ADHD they would never guess it because we kind of growing up we were ingrained into being poised. Yes. To dress how you look, you know, dress how you want to be approached, you're always being interviewed. I don't care if it's a janitor, I don't care if it's someone just cleaning the street and I don't care if it's a homeless man, you're always being interviewed Sterling. So you need to act that way. So that's, that's how I am so like, it's not noticeable.

Scott Benner 46:45
But even in your speaking like, not just visually, but like you talking to like nothing. All the words don't seem to match your you don't I mean, like your your your your life is a dumpster fire. But you don't you don't come off that way while you're talking. And you don't come off that way. When I'm looking at you. I'm trying to figure out why that is. And so that's the answer you were raised to, to present yourself in a certain way. That's correct.

Sterling 47:11
And also on top of that, I've always had a vision to change the world when I got diagnosed with diabetes that solidified it and made me less fearful. So I started writing poetry. I started going up and doing stand up like an open mics and became a little famous in that world. That's when I started doing modeling, sort of going to art directing and commanding people no one would ever expect. I'm actually an introvert. They always look at me, they're like, You're not an introvert. I'm like, Yes, I am. I just learned how to talk. And so that's kind of like, the direction. And so when people read and if you ever look at my art page, I have a ton of poems, and they're extremely depressing. I don't think I write anything, even when I'm in love. I write sad. And it's always either that or contemplative, because it's me processing my emotions. And people were surprised when that first started happening. When I first start expressing myself, they were like, Please don't hurt yourself. And like, at this point, I was like, No, I'm not even, you know, I'm not thinking about that. I'm just thinking about how can I express my emotions, because I never got to when I was younger? And how can other people, you know, step in their own light and be able to do that for themselves. I've gotten several emails and several DMS and all this, like, thank you so much for writing that it was really dark, but I really appreciate your art and you're helping me start to write again, or you're helping me reevaluate my life or I didn't know you were going through this. And sometimes like people don't know, I'm what I'm going through. And, and that's really important to me to like, be able to hold people when I'm talking to them.

Scott Benner 48:45
Now, I'm, I'm enjoying talking to you a lot. And it's just very impressive. You're young, and you've been through a lot. It seems like most of it you went through by yourself at one point or another. And I don't know you just your the way you're coming off is it's almost confusing, because I'm not sure why you're doing okay. But at the same time, it's very impressive. So you you think that expressing yourself through different artistic endeavors was very valuable for you emotionally? Yeah,

Sterling 49:18
it saved me. It saved me. Like when I got diagnosed, and I was sitting there in the hospitals, I quit golf, because I thought to myself, I'm like, I can't sit in a hospital bed, not ever having cried out of joy for something. Like when I was winning and golf, and people would interview me, I'd be like, yeah, it's whatever. It's whatever. And I was like sitting there and I was thinking I'm like, my life can't just be whatever. It's you know, it can't be whatever

Scott Benner 49:43
you go and success is expected. You can't be happy about it. Because that was that was the goal.

Sterling 49:48
Yes, yes. And and I love golf, too. But when I got into art, I really found myself and you know, initially when people first I started doing art or people would call me cringy to, like, you're not gonna make it to that's silly. You know, all of these fears people like to put on, but I never really listened. Because the thing is when you grow from a dark, dark space, there's nothing worse than where you were before. So everything that happens to me now every emotion or every heartbreak or whatever situation, yes, it's hard, but it's not the hardest thing I've been through diabetes isn't the worst thing I've been through. Yeah, you know, so So I take that really seriously. And like, you know, when people were like, Oh, well, art can be a second choice. And like, no arts are first choice. And yes, I'm slowly finally starting to get into manifesting into like, getting more finances from it and other things like that. But it's a journey. I mean, when you're building a house, it's not going to take a day. Yeah, you know, you know, it's

Scott Benner 50:51
funny, because you use younger words than I would use, which makes sense. Makes sense, because you're younger than me. But I was just telling my son recently, I'm like, you can just do something and make it happen. And that probably sounds like hocus pocus to people. But I made this podcast out of sheer nothingness, and a lot of effort and a lot of time, and I hit a lot of speed bumps where I didn't know what I was doing. Or people told me it wasn't going to work the way I wanted to do it. Like all of that stuff. And I just kept focused and kept working on it. And and that's right, yeah, you do it. And then it is. And I don't know, like, I don't know a better way to say that, like, you can conjure something up out of nothing. And, and make it real. So you

Sterling 51:39
can literally do anything you wish you want to do in this world. I tell people this every day, I'm like, you can do whatever, there was a woman I think I don't remember what state she was in. But an older woman, she was like 70, she would actually get paid a ton of money to pee in jars so that people could pass their drug test.

Scott Benner 51:56
Early, that is not where I thought you were going with that. But is that what she wanted to do?

Sterling 52:03
No, but I'm just saying you can do anything that's the world has provided and you know, you can make whatever type of income you want. Some people don't want to, and that's okay. And some people don't want to get there, they just want to be doing the thing. So it's when people limit themselves because of what society has told you, you have to realize you're not the majority, you are the minority, you're you yourself. And you know, just just your being like, you're just you. And so you really have to understand, like you're very different from that next person. And that next person's life. When if you understand that you're able to do whatever you choose to do.

Scott Benner 52:40
You mean, you need some sort of support around you, right? Like, you can't just decide I'm gonna get up this morning and work very hard on something that doesn't make money because I still have to stay alive and eat and everything. Like I had support. My wife was supporting me while I was building the podcast, obviously. But

Sterling 52:56
yeah, of course. And the thing is, you know, I think support comes in more forms than a person. And more forms. Like for instance, like, for instance, my parents, my parents bought our Victorian home through a government funding, where they gave them a whole entire historical loan to build their house. And they didn't have any money, they my mom bought another home for $1, because it was in the newspaper, and they were gonna move it and they just wanted someone to live there in San Jose, this was back when San Jose was still being kind of, like downtown was still being kind of built on. And so I think it's more, it's less about like, thinking about, Oh, I need the support from this specific place at this exact moment. It's more about like, I'm very spiritual person, trusting the universe, and it is going to as long as you're doing what you need to do, whether that is doing your full time part time job to get by, but trusting that there's gonna be money coming from some other place, because money is material, just like anything in this world. And you know, a lot of wealthy people I'm sure, we'll talk about this is like, they already know they're gonna get money. So they're high risk takers, because they know that they're gonna get money, and therefore their brain isn't blocked by that financial, you know, stability need,

Scott Benner 54:16
I'm comforted by the idea that money comes in it goes, That's right, that it's transient through your life, and that, that the goal is not to make a giant pile of it. And exactly right. So, you know, because at the end, I mean, a lot of really wealthy people die and they're still dead. So

Sterling 54:34
that's right. That's right. The only thing you can't get back is time, right? Yeah.

Scott Benner 54:38
So I like to think as long as it's coming in, and it's going out it's I don't get mad when it goes out. I get upset. Like sometimes I get nervous, but like, you know, comes in I'm like, okay, great. We have some sort of a flow here, and, and put your mind on other things and you have to stay. I'll tell you that when the better the podcast does, there is always Is this, there's this kind of carrot on a stick that tries to lead me towards just relax and like, put it on autopilot. Like, like, like, just let it do what it does like you, you love making the recordings, make the recordings, you don't have to work so hard or you don't have to do and I and I always stop myself because if I if I go in that direction, I get bored very easily to begin with. And then I just find myself wandering around like I'm like, oh, like I should be working harder or thinking of a way to make the podcast better find a way to reach more people like I mean, your story's insane. Like, I mean, honestly, we're not talking about today, because it's not going in that direction. But you're in a significant mental health and physical health crisis that you're brought out of, in some part from a podcast, which is ridiculous, you don't immediately get it's actually silly. But if it works, then isn't it incumbent upon me to find other ways for it to help people. And so like I'm doing that, today, when I get off with you? I am. I've just paid for a service that will transcribe, I'm starting with the bulk beginning series, it'll transcribe the series, and then it attaches an AI bot to each transcript. And it's, it's amazingly accurate.

Sterling 56:16
So you can tell what is it doing? Is it doing like captions for you? Well, it

Scott Benner 56:20
does all that which is fine, because we can make content with it that will help people read who would prefer to read but more importantly, you can ask the bot any question about the episode and it very accurately answers it for you.

Sterling 56:32
I like that, right? I love future things. I'm here for everything.

Scott Benner 56:37
I I'm such a I'm so on board with this right upfront. Like I feel like there's a way where we could eventually have all the information from the podcast, behind the scenes transcribed and where you could just ask a little bot like, you know, in this episode, how could I learn to do this? Or what does it talk about Pre-Bolus singer or whatever, and then it could take you right to that information.

Sterling 57:00
I love god I'm so on board for for that. And I think that's going to be really helpful. I know there's a lot of people in the art world or, you know, that have issues with AI situ and stuff. But for me, I'm like, it's just another tool. Just use it as another tool. If if really someone or an AI is you're feeling like it's going to affect you and your future, then you're not really putting as much energy into yourself and understanding that you're valuable. Like really genuinely do that. Because like with that AI it's gonna help people find I know I'm on your I'm on your guys's Facebook's quite often. And everyone's always asking what episode

Scott Benner 57:41
was the? Yeah, no. And I

Sterling 57:45
always ask him like, yeah, what episode is that?

Scott Benner 57:47
I'm up the butt of the company who made the stuff? I was like, can you make the bots embeddable into social media? Like, you know, could there be a Facebook post that said, hey, ask this bot, anything you want about this episode? And it'll launch I'm I'm very, very hopeful that it's going to work. And by the way, if it doesn't work, I'll pivot. Like, I won't try. Yeah, I won't go down with the ship. If it doesn't work. I'll be like, alright, I tried that. That didn't work out the way I expected. And let's try something else now. But at least I'm not bored and sitting around and just staring. Just letting this thing run. Like I want to keep propelling it

Sterling 58:25
forward. Yeah. And that's a perfect word for anybody. You know, who, who has a sense of like, business ship or making something new is the pivot word. I love that word. Yeah. Oh, yes. It's not working. Just pivot. Why stay there? I tell reason to be there.

Scott Benner 58:43
Ya know, I tell people all the time, like, one of the reasons that the podcast is, is popular is because when I see something not working, I can just, I can redirect myself. And I don't have to go ask six people in a meeting and they all don't have to agree and you don't end up in a situation where one of them their job was the thing you're trying to get away from. So they're like, no, no, no, we should stay with this. Like, you know, like, you lose all of those problems when you're streamlined. And anyway, how are you managing your before the looping? Did you ever do pins or needles or anything like that?

Sterling 59:18
I was MDI, I had my Nova log, but I never used it because I use regular insulin. So I was using syringes. And that was after two years, so I didn't actually have to use any type of I have to use Lantis. I use like two units of Lantis for the first year. I didn't use any type of insulin for food or the first year

Scott Benner 59:41
I had you on regular and Lantus. Yeah. Oh, wow. For two years.

Sterling 59:45
No, I was on regular Atlantis. Yeah. For like, yeah, for I guess the two years after that first year. That first year was kind of, it's kind of it's kind of easy levels.

Scott Benner 59:56
You did. You had a very slow onset. Super

Sterling 1:00:00
slow onset. Yeah. And I think being keto really did slow it down quite a bit. wasn't necessarily a positive or negative. It just made me a little more confused. I was like, Why do I need to take insulin now for food? That doesn't make sense? Yeah. But I took Yeah, I took regular and took Lantis. And then I also started taking Novolog for corrections because that for our fat rise, the regular insulin doesn't actually catch. So I was taking three different types of insulin and it was not fun, right?

Scott Benner 1:00:30
But now you're just Nova log in your pump. That's

Sterling 1:00:33
right. I'm just Nova log in my pump. I've been on my pump for about a month now. Wow. I love it. I suggest people

Scott Benner 1:00:41
scrolling. We were telling the Fourth of July story that was three weeks ago. Yeah. Oh, wow. Okay.

Sterling 1:00:50
I had to pivot. I was like, okay, looping wasn't gonna go on loop. I was gonna figure out what the pump was. I like figuring things out. I like seeing what's going on. And if I could figure it out myself, and then go on to assisted thing. But the universe said, No, I don't think so. This is going too slow for me. So

Scott Benner 1:01:09
we're gonna do this instead? Well, that's fast. Yeah, using the G six.

Sterling 1:01:13
I've been using a G six right now. I was contemplating going on to g7. But I'm like, I don't know, people. People were like, yes. And then people are like no about it. And people are like, it's whatever. So I'm not really sure throwing

Scott Benner 1:01:27
the information. Just remember, people don't come to the internet to share how well things are going. You know, I

Sterling 1:01:33
said that all the time. That's what happened. That's why I started that's why I haven't gotten a pump until like, last two months ago, because or like a month and a half ago, because I was just reading people's dumb stories, which I shouldn't.

Scott Benner 1:01:48
What you're doing is you're recommended. People are having trouble, they get lost. They don't know what else to do. They go and kind of word vomit on the internet. And then you think oh, that's how it is artists been using g7 since it came out. It's fantastic. So okay, yeah, sure. Then I'm

Sterling 1:02:02
gonna I just wanted something simpler, too. And I don't really want to tour away even though I'm keto, like if I decide to go off of it. I just don't like the mystery. Yeah, I mean, I don't like the mystery. Obviously. g7

Scott Benner 1:02:13
works fine with looping. So it's pretty wicked. Yeah, I just did the Arden did excuse me, the whole, like, put on her new g7. But didn't turn it on, let it soak in for a couple of hours before she put it on. Like that was happening during like the window. Because there's like a buffer at the end of the old sensor. There's a lot of cool stuff about the g7. So it's worth looking into. And listen, I'm not going to tell you. Like, I don't know how it's gonna work for you. You don't I mean, like, I don't know how any of this is gonna work for anybody. But our experience has been good. So yeah,

Sterling 1:02:47
and I really appreciate hearing your stories. I'm sure everyone says that. But honestly, like, you guys take chances anyway. And I like that. And you just like, you know, pivot if something goes wrong, there's a way to get out of there, you know, out of it. And obviously g7 is not like that crazy, but it's just the mindset. That was around things that

Scott Benner 1:03:08
was interesting for me, I want to adopt. I'm sorry, that was interesting for me to hear you say because I don't think of myself as a risk taker. But I guess in this space, I, I

Sterling 1:03:19
feel like you're a calculated risk taker. I feel like you kind of see your options. And they're like, Yeah, I'll be fine. Oh, yeah. Or this is the out, you know, which I am not, I'm very impulsive. But I am not at all calculated risk. I'd be like, Oh, I have to wait like six months before I decide.

Scott Benner 1:03:39
I do not do I don't do things without thinking them through extensively, but not compulsively. I just, I make sure that I have a i My wife tells me that my brain works backwards from now. So any question you asked me, my first thought is no. And then I talked myself out of the answer with with like data, and then if I can get to a point where I'm comfortable, then I'll move forward. My kids do that too. It makes our air makes Kelly crazy. Because Because she you know if you said let's go on vacation, I go no, we can't do that. Then Then like five minutes later, I'd be like, well, we probably could and then the I could get the time off and can we afford it? And then like and I work so I work backwards from no is what she says she would prefer five work forward from Yes. But I think that's how we end up with boxes that I don't know what they're for. And then I can't find them five days later. And it seems like we're buying stuff we don't need. That's That's me.

Sterling 1:04:33
I'm very I'm like I'm an INFP I don't know if you know the personality traits, but I'm like very whimsical. So I'm always let me tell you my dream. And we can go from there.

Scott Benner 1:04:43
I have all those thoughts. I just thought myself right at the end. I'm like, No, not yet. Not until I figured out how this is gonna work. I've had that feeling for years. Like since I was a kid. Like I wanted to do something big, but I didn't want to waste my time is how I thought of it. There's that if that makes sense. And I watched my son make a decision like that coming out of college too. And I was like, Oh, wow, he did the same thing. He was very willing to put a ton of effort into something but the minute he couldn't see the path to the end of it, he was like, I'm not doing this anymore. And, and he made any pivoted and made a good decision. So anyway, so yeah, what have we not talked about that we should have?

Sterling 1:05:21
I mean, I can quickly go over my art. I don't know if you saw my page, but I can

Scott Benner 1:05:28
quickly go over sterling. Hold on a second. I don't you get I like you. We're fine. We're doing good. Okay, okay. You fill time very nicely. I don't have to I know I'm not pressured to speak here. So alright, so where am I going to find this that so

Sterling 1:05:42
Sondra dot people is my artists page for on Instagram. I have it here on Instagram. Okay, that's right. So

Scott Benner 1:05:50
the this is, is this You photographing yourself? Or what am I seeing here? So

Sterling 1:05:56
when I first got started, I was actually I was having. So when I first got started, I'm actually going backwards. I used to have so I have a team, I have a makeup artist, I have a hairstylist, I have an assistant. And I had me when I first got started, I was just taking photos of me it was COVID, too. And that was kind of the reason why and I was having random photographers take photos of me. And then all of a sudden, these photographers I was spending around $500. On a shoot, I use a lot of flowers. I have a lot of florists that I work with. And I put around like 20 hours a time into each production. And so photographers when I first started doing my art stuff, they were kind of saying, yeah, so all of this art is my art. It's all mine. And you should be grateful that I'm taking photos of you. And then I was like, Okay, let's not do that. And then I went into and you can see a little below, there's like other people, these are all my photos. So these are the ones I actually point and click the camera, I come up with the art direction all of that I take it's about 30 minutes per photo to edit. So I use Photoshop and Lightroom. Presently now I'm going back to just being myself in it and maybe collecting like three other models and just really working on a really short, small team. And luckily now I do have photographer now who's a part of my team who's like, no Sterling, this is your art. I'm pointing clicking the camera today, I'm only here for two hours. And you've been going through all of this iteration for the last two weeks. And so I kind of like got into going more into like, what I look like in my world and in my point of view,

Scott Benner 1:07:42
so you kind of act and you're acting as an art director, sometimes you're using the camera, other times you're bringing in a person to operate the camera and to take a picture of your vision. Is that about right? Yeah,

Sterling 1:07:53
that's right. Yeah. So I come up with all this. Like I come up with a set designs, I come up with all the like I have over you don't I don't think you use Pinterest. But anybody who listens to this, I've have like 11,000 pins, which is a lot. Sounds

Scott Benner 1:08:08
like you've been busy. We're not busy.

Sterling 1:08:13
I've have like over like 100 different types of art directing boards to like 200 Maybe are directing boards. A lot of them have not even been used yet. But it's like my specialty. I learned how to sew even. I'm making this gigantic kimono right now. Because I'm pivoting to being more like just more artsy, I guess, like you're talking about how to make money and all that stuff. And I was kind of going down that right? Like, how do I make money, I started doing prints. I was performing poetry. And I was like, Yes, I can make money here and there with that, but it wasn't making me happy. And so right now I'm just focused on like, just creating, which is funny because like a lot of brands, even the brand I work for the laundry company gives me a ton of free stuff now, because I'm just being free about it more so. No one's deterred by my poetry so far. I'm surprised. Well, it's

Scott Benner 1:09:02
wonderful. Like you're you're really obviously very talented in a number of different ways. i You just said you were sewing Arden is has taken over our our, like our house. She's home from college right now and she's in a fashion design major at school. And she's like, I'm gonna make a dress this week. I'm like, okay, so she's like, I'm gonna need fabric and blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, Okay, so I'm like, out of the store with her. We're buying fabric together. And she's like, I'm gonna, this is the dress I'm gonna make but here's what I'm gonna do with the design. And she's like, I'm gonna put this swoop through it. And it's gonna feel like a Coke can. And I'm like, what she goes, Don't worry. It's not explaining it right. So then she sits down and sketches it all out. And I was like, Oh, wow, that's wonderful. And I was like, Yeah, I was like, what is that around the collar? And she goes, I think I'm gonna put like, soda can tabs there. I was like, okay, and meanwhile, aren't just even drink soda. They don't even know where it came from. She just saw something about that and said I'm gonna change this and make it kind of modern but make it pretty at the same time. I was like, oh, okay, I was like, Alright, go ahead, do it. And yeah,

Sterling 1:10:08
we'll definitely start noticing when she gets into it. Um, the amount of fabrics that we buy is a lot. Ya know, I know she's something that's a patience game, because it's like, why do you need this? And you're like, No, no, I just need this. Like, I just need this this thing. That's

Scott Benner 1:10:23
exactly what she's like. She's like, I'm just gonna get a couple of yards this because I like it. I think there'll be a place for it later.

Sterling 1:10:28
Yes, yeah. And it will not stop. I promise.

Scott Benner 1:10:31
I'll tell you the one thing that I don't this is not a job. But to watch art and go to a thrift store and put outfits together is fascinating. Like she just drifts through that place. Like it's like, like she's meant to do it, and grabs these things that no person would think, like, no reasonable person would go, these two things will end up in an outfit together. And she puts stuff together. And when she's done, you go, Oh, my God. That's, that's crazy. She's she's one of those people, she tells me that when she's at school, and somebody stops her every day, to tell them, I love your outfit. I love what you did with this. I love it. She's just like, I don't know, aesthetically, she's got like a great eye. So we're just trying to support that, like and with, without, you know, without saying it needs to lead to something. And that's one of the things that I've been, I'll tell you as a parent, I'm proud of that. We at least got ourselves into a position where we didn't have to say to our kids, alright, you're 18. Like, go do a thing. And it better make money. Because this is it. You know what I mean? Like, pick one thing be 100%. We're like, you know, we told our son when he went to college, we're like, just do whatever it is you're most naturally inclined towards. And then you can figure out how to make a living with it later. And with Arden when Arden said her two inclinations led her in one of two directions. She said, I think I could either be a very good lawyer, or I want to design clothing. But when she started talking about clothing design, in high school, she was not an artistic person, I would not have thought of it that way. She didn't spend much time drawing or sketching or anything like that. So in her first semester in school, she just sat at a desk and taught herself to draw. Like it was really, I wasn't very impressed by I don't I've told her but I don't know that she knows how impressive it is like she sat down and gave herself a skill she did not have previously. It was really something. So anyway, I love that you're doing all this terrific.

Sterling 1:12:36
Yeah, well, is she getting some manifesting power, if you want to hear I am right now real quickly, and how crazy my life has been. So basically, last year, I was really hurting financially. And I was figuring things out. I found figure modeling, which figure modeling is for most people don't know, I'm nude or portrait in front of artists, and they're studying anatomy, or they're doing oil paintings or whatnot. So I got into this, and people were like, that's like, that's the weirdest thing to get into. And what ended up happening was, is that I became, I just was like, you know, it's whatever. And I became like, I was like, I'm just going to be the best at it. Every time I go into something, I'm like, I'm going to be the best at it. You know? And all of a sudden, I just kept getting word of mouth. They're like, how do you keep getting these jobs? And I'm like, people just DM me. At this point. People just DM me. And they're like, I need you here. Can you come here this day? And I'm like, Yeah, I can be there. I can be here. And so I've been doing that for a year. And everyone was like, How long have you been doing this? And it was like about six months in like six months. And we're like, we're you're literally the best model we've ever had. Oh, cool. I'm like, Thank you. Thank you for

Scott Benner 1:13:47
you. And it's supporting, supporting your other stuff that you're doing. That's right. Yeah. So

Sterling 1:13:52
and I was like, thank you. And so that was about a year and a half ago now. And so finger modeling does take a toll on the body, you have to sit there in silence. And you'd have to put yourself in positions for a long time. Like I hurt my foot. This was kind of I'm kind of dwindling out of that because I actually am working for a laundry company. I want I walked in. So what happened was is like I was doing my finger modeling, but I wanted to get started doing art direct, and I'm like, I want to do art directing. I want to make art. And so I started following a lot of lingerie brands. And I went into I was like, Oh, this lingerie brand is in San Francisco. And so I went into the store and I was like talking to the lady and I was like I'm an art director. Like I'll do stuff for free for you. She's like, No, no, no, no, I don't want you to do anything for free for me, but I also don't need to art direct. I just want a model for me. And so I got into this whirlwind with this woman who, who is who was like one of the top 20 executives at Levi's Well, she she decided to quit she had a dream of building a luxury company and for her retirement. And so I like got into this world with this with this lady and I started doing commercial modeling for her. And then she's just like Sterling, I just love you so much like, we're gonna still do the modeling. But I want you to work for me. And basically, I'm getting $800 for 1515 hours of work each week. And its salary base. So if I can't do a day or anything, I still get paid. And she's letting me use her apartment, she gives me bags of clothes. And she's like, very into my poetry very into my art and wants to support me. So anybody who's like going towards anything, if anything is possible.

Scott Benner 1:15:42
And it comes in the craziest form, I was gonna say, you never know where it's going to work out.

Sterling 1:15:46
You never know where exactly, and it's really helping me because so taking away from figure modeling, now I can start focusing on sewing and making clothing and doing more production stuff and having more money to like, be able to support myself more independently, and you know, have all the benefits of things and still having a ton of time leftover to do what I want to Yeah, wow.

Scott Benner 1:16:10
It's great. Yeah,

Sterling 1:16:11
so that's where I'm at right now. I'm on an upward spiral. I'm on an upward bend from all the stuff before, but it's just about believing in yourself and really trusting that as you continue to work, just continue to work each day and like, you're gonna get somewhere. So with, even with art, and like, it's so cool to see that she's just drawing things on her own. She's like, I'm gonna do this. And you're like, I don't get that. But okay. It turns out to be interesting. My dad does kind of similar now. He's like, I don't see where you're coming from? Why do you need to use my bathroom? Again? I'm like, no, no, like, see, just just believe. And he's like, I really don't, but okay. And then he sees it. He's like, Oh, my gosh, these are all the ideas I can give to you and everything. And so just pursuing forward is amazing. And you providing art in that space to move forward? And I hope other people do. You just have to really trust its theory, because it's like, oh, my gosh, I really want to control whether it's our lives or somebody else's. But it's like, sometimes you just gotta trust the vibe. And as long as they're, they're moving forward in some form and direction, like, it's gonna work out in whatever way they choose to. Yeah,

Scott Benner 1:17:15
it's very, it's very important not to have a preconceived notion of what things are supposed to be. That's right. It's kind of how I feel about it.

Sterling 1:17:22
That's right. And it's so much more fun that way to

Scott Benner 1:17:25
Sterling. Well, I've, I've made a small adjustment to my note about the title. Now I'm thinking after dark, Hard Mode made it because I like hard. I think maybe you came up hard. And I think it's turning you into who you are. So very, very impressive. And I really enjoyed the conversation. I appreciate you doing this with me.

Sterling 1:17:52
Thank you so much for talking with me. I really enjoy talking as much as an introvert I am.

Scott Benner 1:17:57
Listen, you were terrific. I have you never done this before.

Sterling 1:18:01
No, but I did go to school for multimedia technologies. So I had to do quite a few like interviews for school or else I'd fail.

Scott Benner 1:18:08
You're absolutely terrific at this. Tell people one more time your Instagram handle. So

Sterling 1:18:13
my Instagram is sonder dot people. It's so n d e r dot p o p l e and my name is Sterling Hawkins. And thank you for talking with me. Oh, thank

Scott Benner 1:18:27
you so much. I really appreciate you sharing all this with me. Can you hold on one sec? Yeah,

Sterling 1:18:30
yes again.

Scott Benner 1:18:36
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