#503 Manitoba Strikes Back
Don't mess with Trevor.
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DISCLAIMER: This text is the output of AI based transcribing from an audio recording. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors and should not be treated as an authoritative record. Nothing that you read here constitutes advice medical or otherwise. Always consult with a healthcare professional before making changes to a healthcare plan.
Scott Benner 0:00
Hello friends and welcome to Episode 503 of the Juicebox Podcast. This episode comes to you directly from the great white north. And in a second, I'll tell you what it's all about.
Trevor and his family live in Manitoba. And they got very involved in politics, and fighting for people with type one interesting story about making change. And if you're looking to make change of your own somewhere in your own life, is a heck of a blueprint in here. On top of that, Trevor wrote a great blog post about how they did what they did, which you'll find out about in a second, and I will link in the podcast show notes. It'll also be available at Juicebox podcast.com. While you're listening, please remember that nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise, please always consult a physician before making any changes to your healthcare plan, or becoming bold with insulin.
I wonder if anyone listening to this remembers Bob and Doug McKenzie. That has nothing to do with today's episode. But I said the great white North earlier than it made me wonder. And if you know what I'm talking about. Anyway, here's Trevor. This episode of The Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by Dexcom, makers of the Dexcom g six continuous glucose monitor, please learn more about the dexcom@dexcom.com forward slash juice box. The episode is also sponsored by Omni pod, and you may be eligible right now to get a free 30 day trial of the Omni pod dash that is using an insulin pump for free for 30 days, run over to Omni pod.com forward slash juice box find out if you're eligible. And I'd like to thank some members of the Juicebox Podcast recently in an episode I described that there is now a buy me a coffee campaign for the podcast. It's buy me a coffee.com forward slash juice box. It's a place you can go and throw in a couple of dollars. We're even by our membership. The money just goes to me just money I'll use to pay my bills and support the show. And, you know, I explained it in other episodes or people who were looking to do some more. A number of them reached out to me. We ended up doing this. And much to my surprise, somebody actually went and did it, which was was really heartwarming and touching honestly. But anyway, when you join and become a member, I say your name. So thank you very much, Marilyn, Allison, Larissa, Melissa, Leah, blue, Julie, Grace, Daniel, Jennifer, and Jen that it was very kind of you to support the show in this way. And I appreciate it. Ladies and gentlemen, people who are sending me money, yay. Anyway, the podcast is ad supported. It is my goal forever to keep it free for you to listen to. This has nothing to do with that. Don't think that I'm moving towards something else? I am not. I am definitely not as long as I can cover this podcast and my costs. With advertisements, I absolutely Well, this pod cast should be free for everyone who wants it. And it is part of my fight to keep it that way. This is just a thing that incredibly kind people have done. And I thank them. Alright, let's get to the episode. So I can stop being uncomfortable. Because anyway, this is a nice thing that people did. I don't think it's something I would have done on my own. But I appreciate the support very much. Here's Trevor.
Trevor 3:59
I'm Trevor. I'm the parent of 10 year olds with Type One Diabetes. We live on a small farm in Manitoba, Canada. It's the traditional territory treaty, one territory, the the original lands of the Anishinaabe, a. Cree, Oji, Cree, Denny, Dakota peoples, and the traditional homeland of the maytee people. You know, Trevor, if you ever want to context, if
Scott Benner 4:31
you want to talk about diabetes stuff, you shouldn't leave with something like that.
Trevor 4:36
Um, it's, I guess it's, it's something that we're trying to do more in Canada, no matter what we're talking about, to just give some context to the place where we are. So a lot of people are doing this now. In in their introductions, oh, and also my pronouns are he and him?
Scott Benner 4:58
Well, here's something that you're not going to I'm saying that I think is super important. You look like you're 12. And I can't believe you have a child.
Unknown Speaker 5:07
I don't mean that.
Scott Benner 5:09
There's no way you're 30. Like if you said to me right now, Scott, I'm 18. And I'm just getting going in life. I'd be like, yeah, right on, let's talk. You would have never, I would never think that it's just a, it's hilarious, but it's great. When you're older. You'll be thrilled about it. Trust me.
Trevor 5:26
I guess I don't know. Yeah, I'm waiting for that. When you're 50 match up.
Scott Benner 5:32
That's a long time to pay you back. But when you're like, 5055 years old, and people are like, Oh, my God, Trevor looks is 40. Right? You'll be like, Yes, I definitely 40 you just go along with it. you nod your head and that'll be that. Yeah, there you go. I'll pay you back soon. Well, that's very nice. Tell me a little bit. You said your son, right. Yeah. How old was he when he was diagnosed?
Trevor 5:53
He was eight. I think in some ways, we had a really typical diagnosis story. Nothing like DK on a plane. was incredible. I couldn't believe that story that that was amazing. But yeah, here in
Scott Benner 6:11
I'm sorry. I should have been here. When I was recording it. My heart started beating. I got all sweaty and clammy. And I was like, Oh my god, it was like, you know, and you're, like watching Titanic. And you're like, yeah, you as I was listening. I know this boats gonna sink. But I'm still really like, invested. And I was I was just listening and so invested in what she was saying. And, and yet, I'm like, I know the child's fine. I know. It's years later, you know, all that stuff. So anyway, I'm sorry. Let's get worse. I
Trevor 6:40
wish that she could have remembered where in Canada she had landed. I was just so curious to wonder like, well, which hospital was that?
Scott Benner 6:49
wasn't an interesting that it was so such a harried experience that she was? Yeah, literally in a place. And she didn't know where she was. And it didn't, right. That's fascinating. Yeah, really. Anyway, a couple years ago.
Trevor 7:02
Yeah, he, I mean, he had all those typical signs, like, was so thirsty, and really tired and super hungry and peeing a lot. And we tried to get an appointment with our nurse practitioner, and she was on vacation, and we got an appointment, that would have been like two months out or something. And so again, my my husband took him to a walk in clinic, and the walk in clinic doctor there completely missed the diagnosis, and said, Well, you know, there's been this virus going around. And a lot of kids come in looking like this. And and, I mean, the doctor, at least did want to do bloodwork and did ask, Is there any diabetes in your family, which there wasn't. But the the appointment was on a Saturday, and it was the start of a long weekend, and all the labs were closed already. So and I think I think we had a bit of a false sense of reassurance, having seen a doctor who didn't say, you know, rush this child to the emergency room, right? We waited out that weekend. And, and then my husband took him to the lab on Tuesday when the lab opened up again. And, and took him to have his blood work drawn, and brought him back home. And then he went to work. And I just, I looked at our son sitting on the couch. And I could see his breathing was different. And at that point, I was like, Okay, this is just terrible and scary. And I have to take him in right now. Like then I knew we can't, we can't wait for lab results. Like we just have to take him in.
Scott Benner 8:54
I have a question. And it's gonna be a little hindsight. But when the doctor says is there any history of diabetes in your family, you say no. If he would have said is there any history of autoimmune and started listening, listing them celiac thyroid like that, would he have hit on something?
Trevor 9:12
Yeah, yeah, my partner has thyroid.
Scott Benner 9:15
And that's something it's just you can't you just have to ask the bigger question because it doesn't always go you know, thyroid doesn't always be get thyroid, diabetes, etc, etc.
Trevor 9:26
Yeah, well in the the people at the emergency room, they like the endo there I think ended up phoning that walk in clinic doctor and saying like, Look, if you even suspect that it could maybe be diabetes in a child that's a pediatric emergency. You don't wait over the weekend for that.
Scott Benner 9:45
You don't you don't ask two people who aren't doctors hate you think this is diabetes? Yeah. I don't think so. Oh, okay. Good enough for me.
Trevor 9:56
Thanks. Yeah. So like when I took him to the hospital, the key He was in TK, a, the, the intake nurse knew exactly what it was. I didn't even get through listing all the symptoms. And she got out a blood meter and pricked his finger and the machine just read Hi.
Scott Benner 10:17
Oh, that's somebody who's seen it before, you know, know what to do right away. I will never forget. We we had basically diagnosed Arden prior to taking her to the hospital. And we told the intake nurse, she has diabetes. And she was like, and what's happening? And we went, Oh, no, no, I'm sorry. We're telling you, we just figured out she has diabetes, like it first it came off like, oh, we're here. Our daughter has a problem in the emergency room. We just want to let you know she has diabetes. But what we were trying to say was, hey, hey, look up. We just figured out she has diabetes, using Wow, very primitive internet back then, by the way. I wish I knew what website we landed on to figure that out back then. But I don't remember. So for you. So what happens next year, you're in the hospital DK a younger kid. I was just speaking to someone from Canada the other day, who did not have glowing things to say about the health care system. But did tell me that in an emergency situation you skip you know you don't. The waiting that apparently happens on other stuff doesn't happen, obviously with emergency stuff. So what happens afterwards? Yeah,
Trevor 11:25
actually, that was what I was about to say. Like we didn't even see the waiting room. We just went right in and the the ER nurses were really great. I will never forget them. Their names were Rico and Nico. Those were two of the nurses that we had. They, they had to struggle to get an IV into him because he was so dehydrated already by that point. So that was pretty rough. But he was also feeling so awful. That he didn't, he didn't complain, he didn't fight the needles going into his arms.
Scott Benner 12:01
That's a sad remembrance that you're that somebody was so sick, that stuff that would normally make you go Whoa, what are we doing right now? You're just like, whatever doesn't matter. You know? Yeah, fight back. Oh, my gosh, hey, Rico and Nico. Did you go to a hospital run by the Disney Channel? That's amazing.
Trevor 12:18
Yeah, right. And I also one, one thing one of them told me that I'll never forget. And, and that I think really affected my whole outlook was, he said, this is really overwhelming right now. But within a few months, you're going to be the expert on this for your child, you will know more than any nurse or doctor because you're going to be living it and you'll know what to do. And at the time, I thought like, That's impossible. I'm not gonna know more, more than the endocrinologist or whatever, you know, but but then you get in that situation and and you realize pretty quickly Yeah, we live with this every day.
Scott Benner 13:01
That's a loving thing to say, because it's not a great in the moment message, but it is the right message, you know, to me, like, you know, because I could see you having the exact response that you had or like looking at, I'm like, wait, what is this person talking about here? Like, I'm never gonna know more than a doctor about this like, but just that that's something you look back on two, three weeks, I would imagine a month later and you think, Okay, well, the person told me, we're going to gain knowledge and, and soon we're really gonna have this and I would think of that as comforting moving forward.
Trevor 13:31
Yeah, it was an it was a really busy time in our lives. I was about to run for election in, in our country's next federal election, actually, my nomination meeting happened 10 days after our son's diagnosis. So that was, that was a time of a lot of learning for us to try to run our first ever election campaign is that was a huge, huge deal. And when the endo was like, well, you're going back to school now. Like you're gonna learn diabetes for the next three days. for eight hours every day, it's like, Whoa, do I have to do this right now? It just it seemed it seemed like a lot and I didn't know anything about it. I didn't you know,
Scott Benner 14:24
what did you do? Did you put something aside or did you balance the whole thing?
Trevor 14:29
Um, we just did everything. We somehow did it everything I looking back I still I have no idea how we did it. are really really kind friend of ours who has a child with type one who was diagnosed as an infant. She came to see us in the hospital. This was back before COVID when people could actually visit people in the hospital. And she brought she brought a bag of coffee as well as a food scale. And she showed us how she was watching her kids blood sugar's on on their CGM. And actually they were looping. And so she told us about loop and all that stuff. And the bag of coffee really clued me and I was like, oh, okay, like, there's something about this is going to make it so I don't get to sleep anymore.
Scott Benner 15:25
I love that idea. I thought they would just bring you hammered hit yourself in the head with a seat, I'll have to have to have to experience the whole thing in exact reality. Well,
Trevor 15:34
she she was really great because she also said, Don't leave the hospital without a prescription for a CGM. And that was fantastic advice. And it actually it took a fair bit of fighting to get that because we what we were going to find out is that our clinic here is very old school. Like I always I get a kick out of it, when when I listened to an episode, and you're talking to an older person or someone who was diagnosed, you know, 20 years ago or something, and, and you you'll say something like, Oh, so was that back in the day of NPH. And in Toronto, insulin or something. And I'm like, yeah, we still use that now. Here in Manitoba. I'll tell you right now we have a big pile of it over here for using it up, right. And that's still how they'll start people off just they start every child here on NPH. Insulin, and it's in part because of the school system. Because we don't have any nurses in the schools, and school staff are prohibited from helping children with their insulin. They're also prohibited from giving glucagon. So you're really you're on your own. And, of course, NPH it's an intermediate acting insulin, that peaks somewhere between six and 12 hours after it's given in, you're supposed to somehow use that to cover their lunchtime carbs.
Scott Benner 17:05
Trevor, I have to tell you that more and more people coming on to the podcast from Canada, and it, it ruins the shine that I think about with Canada every it's such an odd idea that I mean, we're going to give somebody a medication that is considered to be, you know, from another era, because we don't want to put a nurse in the school.
Trevor 17:30
It is such a huge problem. Like our our health care system will pay for a lot of things. It will pay for you to go into DK twice a month and be hospitalized twice a month for as many times as that has to happen. But it won't pay for for a nurse in the school. It won't pay for a CGM. Yeah, really interesting. Yeah, yeah. Because we, you know, we have health care, but we don't have we don't really have a pharmacare system. Right. So there's, there's a lot of problems.
Scott Benner 18:06
But it's such a constant. I mean, that's such an I know there are a lot of problems in the room. And they're not all easy to fix. But this one's right there. It's obvious, right? Like it's, you can explain it to somebody who doesn't understand it in five minutes. They'd say, Oh, I think we're doing that wrong.
Trevor 18:20
Yes. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And, and we've been a group of us have been working really hard trying to get this changed here. And it's it's incredible how difficult it has been. What I heard one person say is fighting so hard for never enough.
Scott Benner 18:42
That's a good point. Yeah. You're never really getting even when you when you don't get what you need. You get a concession.
Trevor 18:49
Right. Yeah, I mean, when when we started working on this, our province had no coverage for CGM for anybody. And, and after months and months of putting pretty intense pressure on the government and getting a lot of stuff in the media. In the in the recent budget announcement, they announced coverage of CGM and insulin pumps up to age 25. And this after 25 you just just do a better job on your own.
Scott Benner 19:21
What is that Manitoba? That's where you got that done? Yeah. Tell me how, who spearheaded that? Was it you and or somebody else and how do you how did you pull together? Kind of a grassroots fight like that?
Trevor 19:35
It was a whole group of us. I think a lot of people have been trying for a long time. So it wasn't any one person doing it alone. But I think it was the coordination this time that made it kind of different. I think a lot of people have felt very isolated and lonely, having their battles kind of one person at a time. Like there's so much to battle for I mean, we had to, we had to actually fight to get off of NPH. Even that was a fight, even though I could drive to my kids school every day and give him insulin every day for lunchtime, and I said that I was willing to do that. But that was a fight to, to convince them to let us make that change. So you're, you know, you're fighting with the clinic, and you're, you're fighting with the government and, and it's all it just feels like too much if you're doing it alone. But when the when the pandemic started, in our private local Facebook group, there were just so many posts from people struggling where it had always been hard, like this province had some of the worst worst diabetes coverage in the country before and, and then with people losing their private health insurance for what little coverage they did have and losing their income. It, it just got so bad. And I convinced a couple of people to participate in a news interview for CBC. Okay. And finally, when a couple of people were actually willing to talk about it publicly, then a whole bunch of other people saw that it was not just them alone. And and then suddenly, it was like the floodgates opened. And we set up this public Facebook page where people were sharing their stories. And people started out kind of sharing more privately, anonymously. And then the more that people shared, the more confident everybody seemed to become, I think, you know,
Scott Benner 21:47
it's funny, this is not related to doing anything good. But somebody's got it in their head to mess with me, during the pandemic, and I said to my wife, I was like, this person better stop, because I have a ton of free time right now. I'd be happy to get into this just to give me something to do. And isn't it interesting, too. And I want to understand, like you said a little bit, but I do want to share a little more deeply how you got some success. But I think that the it's not a misdemeanor, I guess it is the mistake, the mistake some people make when they're fighting against something like this, is that they think they're fighting for right versus wrong. They think that they're going to hold up, look, this is right, this is sensible, you're in charge of helping us see that this is sensible, make it make sense. But that's not really the path you need, the path you need is take the person who makes sense. And I know this is terrible, who's in power, and show them how helping you will help them. And when you do that, you get things done. But you know, people don't do things for the right reasons. They do things, sadly, most of the time to move themselves along. And you know what I mean?
Trevor 22:58
Yeah. Is that Yeah, we we have a government right now that it's a it's a conservative government, it's very interested in saving money. So in that budget announcement, almost everything else that was announced was cuts. Yeah. And and people really applauded Oh, wow, you got coverage up to age 25. Which, of course, we felt like Well, that's it's really not good enough. But people were excited that that we got something. But yeah, I think I think from from a citizens standpoint, you feel like, you know, I took half an hour and I, I wrote an email to my representative. And, and that was a big deal for me. And on their end, they don't even see that stuff. Like, I mean, those emails and phone calls, they go through assistance, and they don't even get passed to the representative until there's a certain volume, I think. And then if you also get something in the media, that's when there's suddenly you get noticed.
Scott Benner 24:06
And so May I take play devil's advocate for a second, as a person who runs a Facebook page. It's not apples to apples, but it's sort of is if you think about it, one Kook, you can't respond to, because then you get mired down in just like someone's crazy focus. But when you start hearing from 20 people, you go, oh, maybe this isn't a crazy thing. Maybe this is something people think. And it brings your attention to it, then you're like, Okay, like it part of me thinks that's terrible. That one person's voice doesn't make it to where they intend. And then then there's a part of me that goes, Well, it does make sense if I was on the other end of this and I addressed every single piece of email that came. I'd never get anything else accomplished.
Trevor 24:52
It's sure yeah, I mean, they're, they're busy and overwhelmed. It's the middle of a pandemic, but but also People have been trying to get this done for years. And there have been organized efforts before done by diabetes Canada and jdrf. Through their advocacy branches,
Scott Benner 25:11
do you think I don't mean to cut you off? But do you think that that's known from elected officials elected official? Like, couldn't that have been done while someone else was in that office? And then the new person might not even know anything about it, right?
Trevor 25:23
Yes, yeah. There's that too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, some of them there. There were some people that we, we found, I mean, we went back into Hansard is where you can look up everything that's ever been said in the legislature. And so we found some people that were like, hey, when back when you were in opposition, 20 years ago, you were talking about how, how the government needs to do more to support people with type one diabetes. And and now you're the health minister. What, like what's going on? Why is it so hard to reach you?
Scott Benner 26:01
because nothing's about you want to hear a little bit of my thoughts about things. Nothing's about what it seems like. It's about everything's about having power and keeping it or not having power and getting it. That that's how people's minds work.
Trevor 26:16
Yeah, one that's where it's so important to bring in the media, I think.
Scott Benner 26:22
Right? Yeah, to to shine, it's the bright light, you shine the bright light on you go look, we can't ignore this. You're doing a bad thing. We're gonna let people see if you don't do something. It's it. You're holding people's feet to the fire.
Trevor 26:34
Yeah, and we tried to always keep it really positive. We we've always just said like, this is about education, we're sure that once they really understand that they will support this because it's so obvious once you get it, you have to do something. So so we came up with with all sorts of stuff to get this into the media. The first one was the great manitoban fingerprick challenge, where we invited all our MLA is to pick their own fingers 10 times in one day, because that's what Manitoba pharmacare does cover right. It covers those finger pricks right but not a CGM and and we actually had a surprising number of MLA is take us up on that challenge. We got about 15 of them to do it and we asked them all to make videos of themselves doing it and post about it on social media and a lot of them said that they they learned a lot oh and this is where we could do your ad for the Contour Next One because when I we worked with a pharmacist actually my kids pharmacist he has a kid with Type One Diabetes and and so he supplied the fingerprick kits for the politicians and he like he was so happy to do this and and have them have that experience. But when we were talking about well which kind of which kind of finger picker should we give them like what brand are we going to go with and we both agreed that it would not be the Contour Next One because it has that option to try again with the same strip all the other ones don't right we were like it could be anything else but not that one.
Scott Benner 28:26
Trevor This is unprecedented for the show but the Contour Next One blood sugar blood glucose meter offers Second Chance test strips meaning if you go in one time get some blood but not enough you can actually go back get more without ruining the test strip or messing up the accuracy of the test contour next comm forward slash juicebox Okay, no, we'll go right back into that Trevor that was excellently done. So you didn't want to give them a good meter you wanted them to struggle a little bit?
Trevor 28:52
Well, no, I mean, we wanted to give them a good meter we did we did give them a good meter just not the Contour Next
Scott Benner 28:59
One that was gonna help them I see.
Trevor 29:02
Yeah, so So I mean, they they got a very nice modern meter just not not the Contour Next One. And yeah, there there was not a single politician who was actually able to complete the whole test without getting any error messages and without wasting a strip. So I think they all learned a lot from that experience from having to actually do it because a lot of people go through that.
Scott Benner 29:31
Yeah, that's excellent. That's a great idea. You know, it's funny when you first said you did the Manitoba finger prick challenge. I thought you just told a bunch of people in Manitoba to give the finger to the person government. That's exactly what I thought you were gonna say. We ran up to their buildings and gave them the thing. You can see that my um, my ideas probably would not have led to any success, but what did your ideas lead to?
Trevor 29:56
Well, the first thing was really great media coverage. which helped a lot. I think for for media, you kind of you need a reason why should they cover this right now, you can't just say, hey, look like these people with diabetes, they don't have good enough coverage. And it's always been like this, and we would like it to change now. But if you create an event, or I mean, I hate to say gimmick, but it's almost what it is, in a way, in a very fancy and educational media gimmick, then they will report on that. So each time we put together something like that, we put out a press release that we sent out to every local journalist. And so a lot of them right away, picked up the great manitoban fingerprick challenge. And they wrote about it before we even had a single MLA signed up to do it. So that that was pretty cool.
Scott Benner 30:58
I would love to have seen in the backroom, like in in the government side, like if they're just like, Oh, I saw that in the news. I guess we should not ignore these people. Like if it's just that base and simple. You know what I mean? Like you put it in their face. So they're like, well, we can't ignore this. We're hearing about it somewhere. It's almost like see three tweets. And you're like, Oh, it's a thing. It's not a thing. Yeah, three tweets. But yeah,
Trevor 31:18
I think it might be as simple as that. And then we just we kept going, we got a certain number of MLS that did the fingerprick challenge. And that was great. But But then we needed more reasons to get the media to cover it. So the next one that we did was the antique diabetes roadshow. And a group of us showed up outside the legislature, with with antiques from the same era as as fingerprints, right, from, you know, stuff from the 80s. And also also, we talked about NPH, insulin being so ancient. So we brought things like a typewriter, and just made a display outside the legislature. It's a real challenge with COVID. Like how he can't really do a protest, you can't, you can't have 1000s of people show up and show your strength in numbers. So you, you have to be really creative at that time, our gathering limit here with 1010 people in a public place. So we coordinated amongst ourselves and made sure to have no more than 10 people. Media don't count towards the public gathering limit.
Scott Benner 32:36
Which was very helpful. And funny, by the way, if 10s that Oh, yeah, right. What's 10? Unless you're in the media, then there could be 50 people here, you're fine.
Trevor 32:47
That's great. Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, I guess because they cover, they follow protocols, right for them for themselves. And, and I think it's important for media to be able to cover events, ya know, they're very important part of our democracy. So I guess that's, that's why they don't count towards that limit. But But again, so we sent out a press release the day before, and then we sent it out, again, the morning of and all the media showed up to cover this event that we had. And then two weeks later, we did another one, we did The Amazing Race for diabetes coverage, and kind of had had this events sort of Amazing Race style. And so for that one, we invited MLA is to partner with someone with Type One Diabetes. And by that time, the gathering limit had changed to 25. So it was a little easier to coordinate that. And then so we had the MLS, doing things like, oh, at this table, you've got to count carbs, and you've got to figure out an insulin dose, and then we would kind of we would make it so the insulin dose would be really hard to do with pen needles. It would work out much easier with an insulin pump, but then it would be this opportunity to explain to them, like this is how this is so difficult. Yeah, on a daily basis. Without this, these are echnology
Scott Benner 34:12
really creative, brilliant ideas to show things to people. It's easy, because you have to make yourself you have to make yourself a human being in their eyes. Because I think that I think the one thing that happens in government, and I certainly don't want to be in charge of a government but if you put yourself in the shoes of someone who is not just thinking about people with diabetes, or people who have cancer, people can't afford their electric bills, but they're trying to think about not just I think you you want to hope that a leader is thinking about everyone.
What is your blood sugar doing right now? Is it rising or falling? Is it playing nice and staying stable? What Number isn't that I know my daughter's with a flick of a florist for the flick of a flick the flick of my finger I open up my iPhone lickety split, Arden's blood sugar is drumroll please 92 it's actually been incredibly stable at that number for about the last 55 minutes. Prior to that, it was a little lower at 75, I can actually see what rate it came up at. It's amazing Dexcom that's how I know I have the Dexcom g six continuous glucose monitor. On my daughter right now she is wearing it. And it is sending her her blood sugar on her iPhone and me on mine, she could actually share it with up to 10 people. And those people could have an iPhone or an Android or a mix. Right doesn't have to be anything specific. It's whatever you're using. Imagine being able to see the speed and direction of your blood sugar in real time. It's astonishing. The Dexcom g six is a triumph. It is a leap in how people take care of diabetes, absolutely imaginable. Learn more@dexcom.com forward slash juicebox. Actually, you can learn more or get started with Dexcom gs six today by going to that link. The Dexcom is that the core of every decision that we make about insulin, and about carbs. It is super simple to use. It integrates well into your life. It does what it's supposed to do in a way that just makes things better. That's my opinion, but I think you'll find the same. Another thing that I love is the Omni pod, your omnipod.com Ford slash juicebox. When you get there, guess what? Guess what you might find out when you get there, you may find out that you're eligible for a free 30 day trial of the Omnipod dash. Take that pot out for a test drive my friend for 30 days match if you want to test drive a car and then like bring it back next month. You'd be like legit, okay, that's what all the pods doing here. On the pod comm forward slash juice box, no tubes to get in the way. Simplify your meal times, no more multiple daily injections, head over check your eligibility and your coverage. This could be the beginning of a summer for you like no other swimming, bathing, running, jumping, frolicking a tumbler salt, which I believe is called a somersault. You could do that. And you're like, well, needles wouldn't come flying out of your pockets. And if you had like a two pump, the controller wouldn't come flying off. Like I imagine a somersault with a tube pump could lead to the pump being wrapped around your neck multiple times. And probably when the tubing gets a little shorter Is it like zings around your neck, like, you know, when you used to take the swings, and you hit them up really quick. You know, I mean, you'd get the swing when you were a kid, you throw it really hard to wrap around the hole. That's how I'm seeing the pump, you wrap it around your neck, you do a somersault and and then when you know what happens when the tubing gets short enough, it just the thing just smacks right in the head. So anyway, with on the pot, that wouldn't happen. That's pretty much what I'm saying. I'm the pod comm forward slash to stop cheese box on the pod.com forward slash juice box, do a somersault don't get hit in the head with an insulin pump. But that's a marketing campaign. You're welcome on the pod that extra bit there that was free links in the show notes links at Juicebox Podcast comm let's get back to Trevor.
But I think they're thinking about the machine about keeping the country moving about being here in 50 years, 100 years about not having your democracy fall apart like that. They're thinking about bigger ideas. And it's hurtful, but kind of obvious to realize that on a person to person level, you really aren't the focus. Did you know what I mean by that? Like it's almost like with a mother ducklings walking along with eight or nine ducks and one of them breaks a leg. She looks back and goes alright, well now I got one less talk and I keep going like that's that, like keep the pack alive mentality that I can understand, but makes this kind of stuff. So difficult to fight against because and then I guess the only way to really do it is to stop and go look, we're not a pack of ducks. I'm a duckling with a broken leg, like see me and then help me because not only do you have the power to help me, but we are putting effort and money into things that are far less productive than what we could be doing.
Trevor 39:50
That's I mean, that's where like we also have to point out that the broken leg is actually really expensive for the whole system right and here in in Manitoba, we have the highest per capita rate of dialysis in the country. And of course the system pays for that and has to pay for that. Excellent.
Scott Benner 40:09
Excellent. Excellent that people have dialysis. Sorry. I got ahead of myself there. Yeah. What you point out to them is no, we can't walk away from this duckling. It's chained to us. And we're dragging it along with us. It's it's Yeah,
Trevor 40:22
right. Yeah. Well, one, one of the health ministers assistance actually was the inspiration for the next event that we planned because this was after the budget was announced. And, and we just we kept phoning. We kept phoning the health minister's office saying, Well, what about everybody over the age of 25? What about all those people? And And what about all the long term complications on how expensive they are? And in one of those complications, the health match one of those conversations, excuse me, the health ministers assistant said to me, Well, not everybody with Type One Diabetes ends up on dialysis, you know, and I think like he was trying to say this in the context of the cost savings analysis, right, but it comes down, one would be looking at, but he gave me this idea. I was like, Well, how many people with type one diabetes do end up on dialysis? How does that work out? And I was shocked to look up those statistics. It's, it's really scary, Trevor, it's
Scott Benner 41:30
almost as if that insulin that was being used in the 70s. And 80s, is not the best way to take care of type one diabetes. And that's shocking. Right? Oh, my God. Yeah, you must have been just knocked right over.
Trevor 41:46
I mean, like, when, when our son was diagnosed, that, that first day in the hospital, the endocrinologist talked to us about our private health insurance and what we had, and as a Canadian, that's really shocking. We're not used to that you're used to like, you go to the doctor, you never pay a cent. You just show your health card. And, and it was, it was incredible to, to have that conversation. And then, and then the diabetes educator said something like, you know, I think she wanted to impress upon us how serious this disease is, and the consequences of long term complications. And so she was talking about all that stuff. And I was like, Yeah, I am really scared of that. I, I have a friend my age, who is on dialysis, has had an amputation, and has lost his vision. And I don't want that to happen to my child. And I don't understand how this happened to my friend who's the same age as me. And she said, Well, that it doesn't really, it doesn't have to happen anymore with the technology that we have today. Great. And and then you go, okay, but that's not covered for everybody.
Scott Benner 43:07
And I know. You can't have it. But I'll tell you what, if you did, you'd be so much better off anyway. We'll see you later,
Trevor 43:15
right. Yeah, yeah. So I think I mean, it was some of those early conversations that also planted the seed for me that that eventually, once once our family personally got out of just struggling with how to cope with everything that that hopefully we could do something. The day that the day that we went to the clinic to get off of mph. I actually I drove through a terrible snowstorm to get there. But I was like, I am not going to miss this clinic appointment. This is not going to read delayed again, like we just have to get them off of NPH. So we drove through this horrible snowstorm. And because of the snowstorm nobody else had showed up at the clinic that day. So we were just kind of chatting and the diabetes educator told me a story about a child in foster care that she'd cared for. And that had seen another kid wearing a CGM and said to the educator, why can't I have that? Oh,
Scott Benner 44:25
geez, did they tell them why? Because you're poor, and you don't have parents and we don't care about you? Because that seems like how it feels. You know what I mean? Like really, really? I don't mean to be harsh. It just, it feels like what else would you say to them? And not that you would ever say that to a kid? Let me backtrack. But I mean, if that's the honest truth, then what do you say? You say, look, you don't rank here. And so you know, you don't get to have this stuff. It's it's just fascinating and like you said, but they are banking up money so that when that poor kid grows up, they can put them in the hospital for DK twice a month and get them on, you know, some sort of a kidney. dialysis? Really, it's just do you think do you? Do you have a feeling for why the thinking is that way?
Trevor 45:10
I think, um, I think governments like to think very short term. So even when you talk to them about long term complications and the money that they would save, if they covered the appropriate supplies and devices, I mean, even insulin, there are people in Canada who are rationing insulin, because they can't afford it. And I know, it's it's nothing like the problems that you have in the US, but it shouldn't be happening anywhere. But so they they think, well, that's, that's long term. And we want to save money. Now we want to, we want to say that we're being fiscally responsible, we want to cut taxes, we want to do all those great things. So one thing that we've we've started trying to talk to them about is understanding what it can mean with diabetes. When you say long term complications. If you're talking about retinopathy, it's not really that long. Like, I mean, I think it's something like 8% of people with type one diabetes, will start showing signs of retinopathy. Just three years after diagnosis. It's not that long.
Scott Benner 46:21
Yeah. Being well managed. Things are going to go downhill quickly.
Trevor 46:26
Yeah, yeah. So it's important, I think, because politicians don't they don't know what what you mean, when you just say long term. They're used to it. If they're used to thinking about infrastructure or something, then they're thinking 80 years. Right,
Scott Benner 46:42
right. Yeah, that bridge will start crumbling in 2093, we'll get to it. That Yeah. And by the way, they because they thinking because they're thinking about the money part of it, you really don't get thought of as a person, like, you're not a bridge, we can't just come along and fix you. Like, once your eyes don't work. You know,
Trevor 46:59
they don't work. You don't you don't get to like patch them back together again. And there are treatments, but they're not. They're not going to put your normal, there are treatments that are also very expensive, like the you know, the eye injections that they do, right? I finally found a source for that for the just how much it costs, and it's about $7,000 per injection per eye. And they're
Scott Benner 47:25
not ever you have to get a needle in your eyeball. So right. Can I just have a CGM, please?
Trevor 47:33
I know, right? Yeah. Yeah. So we I mean, we try to talk about all those things. But it's, it's there a lot of moving pieces there. Because even if you convince, say, your local politician, and the person is like, Yes, I get this, you need this. But I am not the health minister. I am not the civil service. And I am not the finance committee in Union to convince all of those people. So how did
Scott Benner 48:00
you like, how do you do that? Like and how big is Manitoba? Like, give it to me, like, pick a state in the United States? What does it measure up to like size wise?
Trevor 48:10
Well, Manitoba is not that big. I mean, we have about 1.3 5 million people here.
Scott Benner 48:16
But but but this is where you focus on and this is where you were able to make the change.
Trevor 48:21
Yeah, yeah. Because in Canada Health is it's provincial jurisdictions. So we focused on our own province here, where we live.
Scott Benner 48:33
So let me ask if you somehow ended up magically changing everyone's mind in that province. It's not like what you taught those people would have an opportunity to bleed out into a different province. Is that right?
Trevor 48:46
I think it could help. One, one thing that we did here was there while we were running this campaign, a couple of other provinces made commitments to improve their diabetes coverage. And then it became very clear that Manitoba was the worst in Canada. So that was another press release. No, nobody likes to be the worst in the whole country for something. So we kind of we did capitalize on that a little bit. But you just you have to work with every every different component, and you have to understand how changes can get made. So I mean, with if the Health Minister really cares about something and says, hey, look, I've been getting all these emails and phone calls from these diabetes people like what is going on? She will direct her staff to look into it. And and then the civil service experts will look at the studies and look at the research. And that's a whole nother problem that we have, which is they'll they'll only consider certain types of studies they prefer they prefer clinical trials. I guess they're What are they called? Like the double blinded kinds, right? They prefer that kind of review. They they don't prefer to look at what they call real world studies that are more retrospective. Yeah, they're harder. Yeah, so. So another thing that we did, like, we managed to get some meetings with the civil service as well. So then you're talking to clinical analysts, and you have to speak their language. So we were, we were looking at studies, and we were poking holes in our own governments, reviews of the technology we have in Canada, a body that is kind of more more federal, that's supposed to help to not have to duplicate the work so that each province one at a time doesn't have to look at all this stuff on its own. So so we were looking at the federal review of the technology and saying, like, Hey, you know, it was published in 2020. But when you actually go and look at what they say they're talking about, they're talking about other meta analysis of multiple studies. And when you go back and look at when those studies were published, some of them are from like, 2006. Well, which which version of Dexcom were we using in 2006? Yeah, like, yes, it was a lot more expensive back then. And much less accurate. And things have really changed. Now how about we look at a study where the data was actually collected in 2018, using a much more more recent version of a CGM, and look at those results. So we we did things like that, and the civil service, folks, they seem to be very appreciative, I think, for that sort of help, because they're, they're looking at new new drugs and devices all the time. And it's a lot of information to go through. And I think I mean, I think it's reasonable that if you have this federal body that has written a report, and someone's asking you, well, what about this CGM thing? And you go and you look at that federal report, and it says, not that great. Not sure if it's worth it? Well, yeah, I mean, what what decision Are you going to make, but if somebody can come and help you and say, Hey, like, these are the reasons why that federal review is not actually that strong. And why don't you look at this and this and this instead? It's easier for them to make a better decision, I think,
Scott Benner 52:44
yeah, I wonder if I wonder if there's not a way to think of it more like a marketing problem to like, could you, you know, if you were a CGM company, like, could you go into an area and just pick, I don't know, 50 or 100 people and put them on product, and not even help them with it, just put them on it, and then gathered their data for six months, and then gather 100 people's data that don't have the the ability to see their blood sugar for six months, and just see if you can say, look, this was beneficial here and give them a questionnaire about their stress, lifestyle and stuff like that. If that wouldn't be an easy way to turn to people and say, Look, this is what we found, as a matter of fact, for anybody listening in a company, that's a great commercial, you know what I mean? Like that would be key. Imagine a 62nd ad where you you saw that break down very quickly. You know, these 100 people did this, these 100 people didn't have it, here's the outcomes. After six months, everyone living with diabetes would understand that every endocrinologist would understand that.
Trevor 53:42
Well, that's that's been done. really mean nobody cares. Well, with the with the libri. In Europe, that was exactly what happened. But it was done on a on a huge scale, because they started to have federal coverage for those devices, right. And so what libri did was it looked at Okay, like in the year before people had this coverage, what was their rate of decay? And, and severe hypoglycemia? And in the year after, how did that change, when people got coverage, and the reduction in DK was about 50%. And it's looking at a huge sample size, it was like 70,000 people in France. And so this was the kind of thing that we were bringing to the civil service saying like, Look, look at this study. It's a it's a massive sample size. They've already done it over there. Like they just decided to have this coverage. Why wouldn't we want this here? And how can how can we ethically keep doing this to people when we know what a huge difference this technology makes? And and yet, after the budget, drop The age 25 cut off when we would go back and talk to the politicians like, why age 25? Why did you do this, they would still be talking about cost, which tells me that they they still don't fully understand the cost savings argument like even if they don't care about people's kidneys, even if they don't care about people's quality of life. If we can just talk about the dollars here, DK a and treating it in a hospital is really expensive. And that's a short term emergency,
Scott Benner 55:34
but it's the problem. Trying to put myself in their shoes is the problem that that money for DK is going to places they want the money to go to. I hate sure you don't I mean, I hate them boil it down. I hate to boil down people's health into such like cold ideas. But if I'm the politician am I sitting there going look, DK is much more expensive than putting somebody on a CGM. You're 100%. Right. But in column A, we're giving the money to the CGM company. And in column B, we're putting it into the hospital that hires doctors and nurses and people to clean the hospital. And we're keeping the machine moving this way.
Trevor 56:10
like Oh, sure, like it's I mean, yeah, I think just that it's a different pot of money can be a problem, because the people that run the drug plan, they look at the costs of the drug plan. And maybe they're not looking at the costs with associated with the hospitals. I mean, we also keep trying to point out to them, that right now, like this is an emergency, it's urgent. And now is not a good time to have people going to the hospital when it could be avoided. So if there's anything that we could do to keep people out of the hospital, that would be great. Like, actually, as of yesterday, Manitoba now has has the highest per capita rate in North America, of new COVID infections. And also yesterday, they transferred three ICU patients to a different province because the ice user full here,
Scott Benner 57:09
Trevor, maybe show up instead of trying to fix Manitoba and might be underwater. What are we talking about? Yeah, yeah, it's, it's pretty scary. Um, yeah. Well, I just, I mean, maybe you repurpose people. So instead of saying, look, we need you to get sick, because that's how nurses and doctors and hospitals get paid. Maybe you could turn nurses and doctors and hospitals in the people who showed you how to put on your CGM and how to read it and how to make better decisions. Like, you don't I mean, like, why is there? Yeah, it just listen. It's obvious, like worldwide problem, right? We attack problems after their problems, like being proactive is not anybody's strong suit.
Trevor 57:49
Right? Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, like, right now, we have a shortage of nurses, we obviously have a shortage of space in the hospitals. So I don't think that it. I don't think that anybody's even saying like, you know, that's how nurses and doctors get paid is by people going into DK. That's the I don't think that's really an argument here, though. I may be a little different from how it is in the US in that regard. But, yeah, I think those resources could be spent on training people on their insulin pumps, and yet teaching people how to use the CGM.
Scott Benner 58:30
Can you talk for a couple of minutes about the overall attitude that you guys used? When you're undertaking this? Because there are a number of, you know, patient advocacy, things going on all over the world. And every one of them is, is not just well intended, but needed. But some of them their messaging, you can you hear their messaging, and you just think that's not going to go anywhere. Like, no one's gonna listen to you when you're talking to them like that. And I and it's not even that the message isn't, isn't deserved. You know what I mean? Like, I'm not saying that, like, I'm on the side of the person saying the thing. I just think as a, as a person who's standing back watching it happen, I'm like, I don't think that's how conversations like this get anywhere. But how did you actually like so you did all these things. But they worked. And that's and what do you attribute that to?
Trevor 59:27
I think it was really the collective action and the coordination of so many people. So many people were writing to their MLS and emailing and phoning. And so it wasn't just a meeting with the health minister, but it was like every, every person in our group with type one diabetes or who is connected in some way to type one diabetes was trying to get a meeting with their own MLA and also phoning the health minister. So we we had many many meetings. With different MLS, and then when they're all hearing similar messaging about why this is so desperately needed, then I think when they do have those moments in caucus, and they're together, and one of them says, Hey, you know, I keep hearing from from people diabetes, it's like really a problem. And then somebody else chimes in Yeah, like, yeah, I, I've been hearing this too, right. And they, they all started to get education around it, we we've always tried to focus on the education aspect of it. And with each media event, we kind of chose a different topic to educate around. And there, there's so much it's like, it's almost endless, like you, as, as you know, very well, you can keep talking and talking about different aspects of diabetes. And we just kind of kept hoping that eventually, they would understand enough to want to take that action. And we also, we also focused specifically on members of the Finance Committee, because even when you've persuaded the civil service, and you've persuaded the health minister, then if the Health Minister eventually comes to the finance committee and says, look, I'd like to do this, but we don't have quite enough money for it. That's where it can die. It can die if the finance minister doesn't understand how important it is, for what I need to understand
Scott Benner 1:01:27
those when you come into those meetings. I mean, that's amazing. But you're not. I'm guessing, yelling. You're not saying Oh, you're like it's coming from like, you. Listen, I'm not trying to denigrate anybody. But you know what I'm talking about. Right? Yeah. Okay. So
Trevor 1:01:44
So yeah, no, I think I think we always approached it. And we continue to approach it from a perspective of they just don't quite understand yet. But they will, will understand.
Scott Benner 1:01:57
You don't make they're a monster trying to kill you. And you're defending yourself against this charging horde?
Trevor 1:02:04
No, no. And I think that positive attitude, really helped with our events. At each event that we hosted, we've managed to get people to attend from each political party, not just from the government side, and not just from the opposition, but all of them. We have three political parties here in Manitoba. So that that really speaks to you know, if if you've got politicians from all sides willing to be seen with you in public, that's a really good thing, like you want to, you want to aim for that to, to not to not be so abrasive that, that people are just going to be scared to actually be near you in public that the way this you don't want to, you don't want to do that, from what
Scott Benner 1:02:53
I could see from the outside and the way you guys handled this, and I realized it's a big effort. It's one of the great reasons I wanted to have you on because you, I mean, you didn't kill them with kindness, right? But you just you came at them. Constantly, intellectually, constantly, data constantly with, I know you have a problem to fix, here's how you can fix your problem and fix our problem. And it never felt contentious. And it never felt like I'm sure you were, you know, frustrated behind the scenes and everything. But in the moment at the events, or in any of your Ford messaging, it was always very positive. And I just think you don't I you know, like, Listen, somebody could be as wrong as wrong could be you running up to them and yelling, you're wrong. And I don't like you. And why do you hate me is not the first sentence that ends without and we worked it all out later. It just it doesn't go that afraid. You don't I mean, so. To me. Yeah.
Trevor 1:03:54
I mean, I think I guess we focused a lot on personal stories. When when we had meetings with MLS or with the health minister, we tended to open with personal stories. One of our members has a kid who experienced a lot of seizures before getting a CGM. And now seizures are no longer a regular part of this child's life, which is great. So she, Liz, you have to tell your seizure story in this meeting that we have coming up and she's like, yep, okay. All right. I'll do I'll do that again.
Scott Benner 1:04:34
One more time, just so we can get Manitoba squared away here. But, you know, I think that if you're obviously you're looking to expand it past the age of 25, which is clearly obvious, but I, you know, if I had, if I could make a wish for you, I would wish that that you'd go back to those people who you've already whose minds you've already changed and ask them to put a little effort into contacting an official in a different province and explaining to them what they've learned. Because maybe you could get that like spread effect that way. Because you've already got you've already built more warriors. And they're prepared. They know the whole story. And if they were just to call a colleague and say, Hey, give me 20 minutes, I want to explain something to you that I've figured out here. And just make you aware of it. But that would, to me that would, that would be how you how you make it spread across Canada? Yeah, seems obvious.
Trevor 1:05:32
Yeah, definitely. I think so. And I think also, I would love to see less of the burden of this placed on patients who are dealing with this chronic disease every day, which is already plenty to do. I would love to see more people who are not actually living with Type One Diabetes, trying to do what they can to help.
Scott Benner 1:05:56
Well, now that we're on Star Trek lined, man, I
Trevor 1:05:59
don't know, but you know what, some people did that for us here. There. There were phone calls made to our premier from other provinces. And I I'm sure that that really helped.
Scott Benner 1:06:11
No, I imagine what's an MLA I realized an hour into this isn't the time.
Trevor 1:06:17
That's a member of the Legislative Assembly here.
Scott Benner 1:06:20
I just assumed everybody heard government person when you said that.
Trevor 1:06:23
Yeah, yeah, totally government person. That's what it is. But you know, we haven't talked about our ridiculous insulin pump process at all yet.
Scott Benner 1:06:31
Well, can we make sure that we do? Yes. Can we end with that? Because I'm, I'm on such a strict time schedule today. So yeah, I'm not gonna, I'm not rushing you. But let's, uh, let's button up with that. So I, the best I can tell you is that my interactions with Canadians happen mostly, you know, over the internet. And I hear a lot about we can't get a pump. We can't talk somebody into something. That's not how we do things here. You know what I mean? Nobody wants to hear that. It's a lot of that old timey. Like, it just feels like you're managing diabetes in 1983. And yeah, and that's the direction you're getting. But what happens specifically with pumps?
Trevor 1:07:12
Yes. So here, it's, I think, again, it's one of the one of the most difficult parts of the country to get an insulin pump. And I haven't exactly been able to figure out the reasons for that. Maybe it's just because they don't want to pay for them for that many people. But again, I think they're spending a lot of resources on barriers. So for one thing, you have to have three a one C's in a row that are under 10%. And, and of course, they have to be at least two or three months apart. So if you're, if your kid has a flu, or just a really hard couple of months, and they get an A one, see that's 10.2% then they fail that and they have to start again from the beginning trying to get those three a one sees in a row. Under 10%. Yeah.
Scott Benner 1:08:05
So for clarity, you have to take something that you're not getting good direction at, you're getting kind of lousy insulin from and no help. You're struggling with it, which is why you're asking for the pump. But before you can have the pump, you have to prove that you can be good at it without the pump, which is the whole reason you're looking for the pump. Exactly. Ah, yeah, that's more gene. You know, I have to say, I think that pretty Prime Minister has me fooled. Like I see that big smiling face and I'm like, everything must be terrific up there. And then I imagine just, you know, Mounties riding polar bears. And I'm like, Canada, you know, and it sounds like maybe it's just like everywhere else.
Trevor 1:08:48
Yeah, there are some big challenges here. We have a really unique and special one in Manitoba. I haven't been able to find that this exists elsewhere, actually. And I would love if you've heard of this happening somewhere else, please let me know. But after you've got your third a one c under 10%, then you have to do a psych assessment to determine your insulin pump readiness. And the first part of that is his paper survey pages and pages of it. And I mean, when when we were trying to go through it, our kid was eight years old, and he couldn't even really like his reading level wasn't good enough to read some of those questions. And they were really bizarre. They were asking things like, if he was worried that his type one diabetes would affect his chances of getting married or his chances of getting a good job one day. The kid had to fill out the paperwork he was supposed to, but I mean he couldn't really so we can get with him one time
Scott Benner 1:09:58
in my early 20s I had the option to go to a girl's house to have sex, but I had to get gas first. And it seemed like too much work. So I didn't go. So I'm trying to imagine people at the end of their day, at the end of their week fighting with this diabetes had like, Oh, now I gotta fill out this giant survey full of questions that I, my eight year old couldn't possibly know the answer to your eight year olds not thinking about getting married. Are you kidding? Oh, my God, right? The gas station was not far from our house. I just want to be clear. I was like, we could do it Saturday. Beautiful girl, lovely person. I'm not saying anything about her. I'm just telling you, it's hard to at the end of a long work day, it's hard to it's hard to do more stuff. And then they
Trevor 1:10:51
imagine that being attached to whether or not you get this really expensive item that you're you're pretty desperate for. And so instead of answering those questions, honestly, which I mean, some of them may be relevant. I guess, like in the psych survey, instead of answering those Honestly, I think what you end up doing is saying to yourself, okay, what do I need to write down? That they will feel like is the right answer is I don't want to fail this and make it so my kid can't get a pump. Right, right.
Scott Benner 1:11:23
Oh, no. I mean, listen, that's just human nature. I had to take Arden to a doctor's appointment a number of weeks ago, having her wisdom teeth out. She just had to go in for a, you know, first look, and then handed a piece of paper, and it was a COVID thing. Now luckily, all the questions, you know, we could answer honestly. But I just thought to myself, if I went to all the trouble of driving here, and I didn't really think COVID was, you know, I was maybe on the fence about caring about it. Wouldn't I just lie here on this paper like this paper is not, it's not really a good way to get the truth out of me. And and then when that becomes the issue, to me, in my mind, I think what is just take the barrier away then like, why are you asking people questions about an answer? They want an insulin pump, they have diabetes, give it? What is your
Trevor 1:12:07
Yeah, what's your point? In in, in our case, our son was really struggling with needles and with eating food. He was at a point where he, you know, we would be like, Matthew, do you want an apple? and apples are one of his favorite foods? And he just go? No, cuz he didn't want the needle? Yeah.
Scott Benner 1:12:29
You're not asking if he wants an apple. You're asking if he wants a needle?
Trevor 1:12:32
Yeah, it was so sad to see that. And when when we realized how how long it would take us to get through this process. Because after the paper psych assessment, then there's an in person psych assessment. And then there's the clinic assessment. And then you can go on a waitlist to get an insulin pump. And then there's pump training classes. Like it's just it, there's so much ridiculousness, and when we realized that it would take us another year, and we were looking at our kid who wasn't eating normally, what we did was we went to North Dakota, and got him started on an insulin pump in like a day. Were you
Scott Benner 1:13:13
able to do that? Because your accent sounded similar, and they thought you were from?
Trevor 1:13:19
No, I mean, we were able to do that because we have the financial privilege that our family can do that i right now, I understand. But a lot of people can't obviously, right. So
Scott Benner 1:13:31
yeah, I was gonna say while you were explaining this, this is the three a one season a row followed by the paperwork, followed by the in person followed by this. I was like, this is a year, year and a half we're talking about here if if it goes right, yeah, yeah, if you stumble, you imagine you get two in a row. And on the third one, your ad agency doesn't come back. Right. You're now nine months into you get to start over again.
Trevor 1:13:52
Yeah, I mean, I know a small child that that happened to share in it. It took them almost three years to get a pump and they like that family was trying so hard to get through all those hoops and they just couldn't do it. Yeah, I'm gonna
Scott Benner 1:14:07
go out on a limb and and use a word that might people might not think fits here, but that's an atrocity. Like, that is a that is a that is a human rights violation to treat somebody
Trevor 1:14:17
i i agree. Yeah, I think that's that's the right word for it. That's just and and I mean, we have to go through a psych assessment, where it's like, yeah, I mean, this diabetes stuff and heating needles. It is it is giving me some, some mental health challenges here, like things are not okay. But for some reason, I have to pass this mental health assessment first, to get the thing that could help improve my mental health
Scott Benner 1:14:49
and not for nothing. What does any of that have to do with getting an insulin pump? Can you see one relation? Yeah, I don't see one relation to what you just explained. And an insulin pump. I mean, if you will make me go through that to get a machine gun, I might be like, Alright, well, that makes sense, you know, like or something but but to get an insulin pump, like a thing that's just going to, you know, give me my base is what it makes me think is, is that this is this old thinking again, like I've had enough older people who have had diabetes, like for decades tell me this, that pumps used to be considered a thing that you would put on somebody if they were just ignoring their care, because then at least they'd get their Basal insulin from the pump. So you were thought of as a problem if you need a pump at a certain part in history of insulin pumps, and maybe they're just stuck in that idea.
Trevor 1:15:44
I don't think that's quite it here. Because, I mean, if that was the case, then the kids with those super high Awan C's, they would be put on an insulin pump, right? But that's not what they're doing. Well, no only but the best clients on it.
Scott Benner 1:15:59
I'm saying it's letter, the letter of the idea. It would be that way. But I'm saying maybe over the years, it's morphed. Maybe it's just the remembrance that proper, you know, quote, unquote, problem. People got insulin pumps. So we have to prove you're not a problem before you got it. Like, I don't know, I see. Like it maybe you know how some things get commingled after decades. And you don't know why the hell you're doing what you're doing at this point. Like, if you pulled a person aside out of this and said, Why are you doing this? I know that I know, I would bet everything I had, they wouldn't have an answer. They might not know why they're doing it.
Trevor 1:16:32
It reminds me a little bit of psych assessments for transgender people wanting to transition. I am trans myself, okay. And when I when I wanted to transition and wanted access to medical transition, I had to pass a psych assessment. And at that time, what people would do is we like we would get together in our support group at at our local center for that, and people would talk about like, Okay, what do I need to say to the psychologist? And if I say this, will that set me back a year? If I say that, will she just wave me on? Like, how does this work? And so you just you try to figure it out? And and it seemed like what they wanted to check for was, does this person have some sort of mental health issue going on? That That means, you know, we should address that first, before letting them transition, not acknowledging the fact that your depression or your struggles, could could very directly be related to the fact that you haven't been able to transition? Right? let's admit, it could get a lot better. Once you do,
Scott Benner 1:17:52
I could understand that question coming into a person's mind who's never considered transitioning? Like I could see a person having that thought, I can also see that they, I could also see that there might be bad actors who just think, well, I don't agree with this. So let's prove that they shouldn't be able to do it. Like I can see bad actors and good actors and the same thing. But here's the end of it. I have to bleep this out letter later, Trevor, but who cares what you want to do? Like just like, Who cares? like and what other walk of life? are we stopping people from doing what they want to do? I see people pull out teeth, that they that are completely healthy, because they want their smile to look differently. We're gonna make them go through a psych evaluation for that, like, it's, it's your life.
Trevor 1:18:35
Yeah. Right. And I mean, that's like, it's been changing for trans people, a lot of clinics have been changing more to an informed choice kind of model that's like, Do you understand what this medication is going to do that you want to take? Yes. Okay. Like you can make that choice. And, and so I think, too, you know, to tell a person who's having a lot of trouble with needles, that they need to have a psych assessment first and discuss their trouble with needles before he'll let them have an insulin pump. So they don't have to deal with so many needles, it, it just doesn't make any sense.
Scott Benner 1:19:11
You want to sit next to that person every day. And every time they put something in their mouth jam in the arm or the needle.
Trevor 1:19:18
Right? Yeah. And I think that's that's another point. Like, they don't have that experience. They don't get it. No, I know. We, when right when my kid was diagnosed, we were offered an appointment with one of the psychologists just to talk about things which I think like that's great to have that support. It is a it's a big thing to deal with. And that's really nice that a clinic would have a psychologist to talk to right. But unfortunately, the psychologist just didn't seem to know anything about living with diabetes. So one of the things that my kid was talking about in this appointment was how awful he feels when his blood sugar is really high and Just the terrible physical feeling of that and, and that it also made him feel really angry. And he actually described in this appointment that he did something kind of inexplicable and really mean to his sister on a day when he was having a super high blood sugar. And it was it was just soon after diagnosis. The psychologist said, Well, I thought that wouldn't have anything to do with your with your high blood sugar at the time.
Scott Benner 1:20:27
It just all person online, their kid broke their arm. And they started explaining to the doctor that you know, they had to use more insulin because that's how they knew the arm was broken. Because their insulin needs went up, they realized there's something wrong with the arm, the doctor, and this is going to fry your mind, Trevor, who had Type One Diabetes told them that that would not have an impact on your insulin use.
Trevor 1:20:50
I think I saw what I can't understand is like, how could a doctor who has type one diabetes not have ever seen that in in themselves?
Scott Benner 1:21:00
So let me move the microphone a little farther away from my mouth for a second because everybody's idiot. That's why Okay, so that you you've a bunch of people, we're all trying to pretend we're something and doctors do the like, I know everything you can't like I'm infallible like and I get why they need to feel that way. I almost do understand it. But But the real message isn't fixed doctors. The message is control your own life. Like I have an I have to go in a minute. But I have a horrible feeling thinking of you sitting in a doctor's office, while your kid is explaining how they feel with a high blood sugar and how you must feel in that situation. Like
Trevor 1:21:40
Yeah, like, well, and what I did after that appointment is I was I just decided, you know what I think I want to hear from adults who live with this disease. And after that point, I just focused on that, like I read books written by people who actually have type one diabetes. And I that's also what I appreciate so much about the podcast is listening to people's actual experiences. Because when you live with it, you know, like you know how you're feeling and you can look at your CGM and take out the medical
Scott Benner 1:22:13
middleman is what you end up doing. Yeah, so that the message doesn't get truncated on the way to you. Or it completely blocked. I mean, if I start talking about how upsetting it is, for how many people I hear back from or like, found the podcast, listen to it, put things into progress, I really started to understand it started to work out went into the doctor's office super excited a once he was six got yelled at. That's terrible, we'll get
Trevor 1:22:42
that so sad. And I think I mean, for, for my kids, I've tried to make it a learning experience for them. To understand that, you know, we we went to this clinic in Manitoba, it's the only clinic for children with type one diabetes, and it really wasn't working out. And so it's okay to go somewhere else and find somebody else. Like, you don't have to stick with that. That one doctor. I mean, here, it's, it's really hard because there isn't another local choice. But I am glad that at least for my super privileged kids, they were able to see, oh, well, we can just go see a different doctor. And that person does click with us does does make sense. She was so happy for my kid to get an insulin pump when he needed one. And she's super supportive. And, and she's very happy with his a one C and timing range and all that stuff. And so that's the right choice for us. And I think people have to realize, you know, any doctor can can be wrong about stuff. They're a human being, and maybe they haven't kept up to date the way that they should or didn't learn what they should have in school, or whatever it is,
Scott Benner 1:23:58
you have to trust your gut, because you might live in Manitoba, your own version of Manitoba somewhere too. And as Trevor told you, 45 minutes ago, a lot of people who live there who have diabetes end up in renal failure. And so, you know, take care of yourself, you have to like you can't just sit there going, Oh, the guy said it's alright. You know, like it just if you don't think it's all right, it's probably not all right, if you don't have the answers, go find them somewhere else but do not keep going back to a person who tells you uh, you know, who's you know, sticking their finger up your nose and smacking the side of the head and going on being nice to you? No, you're not.
Trevor 1:24:38
I mean, like, I get it, it can be very hard to do that. And I don't blame somebody who of course maybe hasn't felt confident to do that. I'm like your your kid is diagnosed, they nearly died and the people in the hospital saved. At that point were perceived yourself if you were diagnosed as an adult in decay and so it's it can be hard to kind of move by Their initial advice and figure out what else there could be out there.
Scott Benner 1:25:06
It's a difficult it's a difficult transition to make from. This is the person who saved us to somebody just like that person seems to not understand what we're going through. Trevor, I hate to do this, but I have to go. I'm having a great time. And I would definitely keep talking. But I am literally going to say goodbye to you and then take a drink of water and record something else.
Trevor 1:25:29
This has been awesome. I really love talking to you. Thanks so much for having me on the podcast. It's my pleasure. I
Scott Benner 1:25:35
quite enjoyed it as well.
How about Trevor? Just getting into the fight swinging with both hands, huh? Really amazing story. Don't miss there. Don't miss Trevor's blog post Juicebox Podcast calm either. If you're listening on day one, two or three, it's probably right on the front page right now. Just head over there. And take a look. Thanks also to Dexcom Did I say thanks to Trevor? Because then thanks also Anyway, thanks the Dexcom makers of the GS six continuous glucose monitor and Omni pod makers of the Omni pod dash tubeless insulin pump find out more dexcom.com forward slash juice box head over and get started right now. And see if you're eligible for that free 30 day trial the dash add on the pod comm forward slash juice box
thank you so much for listening. Thanks for sharing the show a few bought me a cup of coffee at buy me a coffee calm. I mean, thank you, thank you, thank you, we're actually going to be new members that do that will get their name mentioned when they start their membership. There are some people who bought a level of membership who will get mentioned at every show. Have was um, I couldn't believe that anybody did that. But anyway, no matter how you choose to support the show, I am very grateful. I'll talk to you soon. I'll be back with another episode of the podcast before you know it. Couple sleeps and there'll be a new one waiting right there for you in your podcast that you are subscribed in your podcast app right please, please subscribe in your pockets that I say I should say something like if I lived in Canada now.
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#502 Communication and Relationships with Kimberly Groves, PsyD
Kimberly Groves, PsyD chats with Scott about communication and relationships. Kim is also an adult who has type 1 diabetes.
Learn more about Kim's support group 856-220-9672
You can always listen to the Juicebox Podcast here but the cool kids use: Apple Podcasts/iOS - Spotify - Amazon Music - Google Play/Android - iHeart Radio - Radio Public, Amazon Alexa or wherever they get audio.
+ Click for EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
DISCLAIMER: This text is the output of AI based transcribing from an audio recording. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors and should not be treated as an authoritative record. Nothing that you read here constitutes advice medical or otherwise. Always consult with a healthcare professional before making changes to a healthcare plan.
Scott Benner 0:00
Hey, how's everybody doing? Welcome to Episode 502 of the Juicebox Podcast. I'm your host
Welcome back, everyone. On today's episode I'm going to be speaking with Kim Kim is a therapist. And she and I spend a lot of time today talking about relationships and communication was fun. I liked it. Good talk. Good talk. I should call this one good talk with Kim. But I call it relationships and communication. Actually, I'm gonna call it communication and relationships. Wait, let's see what feels better. relationships and communication, communication and relationships. Good talk with Kim. Now, communication relationships. That's what I do. Please remember while you're listening that nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise, always consult a physician before making any changes to your health care plan. or becoming bold with insulin. Kimberly groves is a licensed psychologist working out of Cherry Hill, New Jersey, New Jersey, New Jersey. What now? Wow. After the music, I'll try that again. That was a trainer.
Kimberly groves is a licensed psychologist. She works at the Center for emotional health Family Care Center in Cherry Hill, New Jersey. And she has type one diabetes. She also runs a living well with Type One Diabetes support group for family members and individuals. If you'd like to learn more about that, you can call 856-220-9672 for details and registration. It's an in I think it's in person but maybe it's online right now you know how the world is. Anyway. Kim is great. She's going to be back again. I really enjoyed talking with her. And if you want to hear more about our support group, which is free of charge and open to the community, well then call that number use the buttons 856220967 This show is sponsored today by the glucagon that my daughter carries. g vo hypo Penn. Find out more at GE Vogue glucagon.com forward slash Juicebox Podcast is also sponsored by the Contour Next One blood glucose meter. It is little It is easy to carry. It has a bright light. It's superduper accurate. It's the best meter I've ever used. Honest to whatever it is. You swear to. I'm holding up my hand right now as if I was in an 80s TV show. And my hand was on a Bible and I was in a courtroom. I promise you this meter is the bomb bomb diggity. Check it out Contour. Next One comm forward slash juicebox. Hello. I guess the first question I should ask you is can you hear me?
Kimberly Groves, PsyD 3:06
I sure can. Can you hear me? I can. Fantastic. Yeah, yes. Yes. improvement.
Scott Benner 3:15
I feel like my mom getting the Netflix on?
Kimberly Groves, PsyD 3:18
Yes. It is a little embarrassing. I even brought backups just in case I didn't have to make the trek up and down bunch of steps if this fails, so I am good to go.
Scott Benner 3:28
It's It's It's interesting, because I read your email, like after you had time to think about it. You sent it back and I thought oh my god, I made this person feel terrible. Or the situation at least or what? You know what went on? I felt so terrible. I wish at the time I would have understood better what was happening. I would have just been like, let's just stop. But it's very cool that you want to try again.
Kimberly Groves, PsyD 3:53
Yeah, no, not you at all. It was technology and my lack of knowledge.
Scott Benner 4:00
I didn't realize you were struggling. So I mean, listening back I do and like I trashed the episode, I threw away the file. But I just figured we'll just talk now and this will be terrific and etc. But I just didn't at the moment. There's a lot going on in my head while I'm recording one of these like, I wish I could say that I'm just talking but there's a lot more happening. So you know, anyway.
Kimberly Groves, PsyD 4:26
Yeah. Yeah, I thought I was able to just kind of, like get through it by just making some vague statements might fit. But then towards the end, there was just too many of them and I was confused as to what questions I was asking. So Well, yeah,
Scott Benner 4:42
I the only other time this happens, and I know this isn't your situation. But um, sometimes I get those emails from crazy people. So and I'd be crazy. I mean that in the very colloquial sense of the term, but They, they begin to overthink it. And they start, I could have said this, I could have said that I'm like, you don't understand what this all is like it, you know, we could have this conversation 1000 times you'd say 1000 different things. They don't don't get that. So. So we'll just start, you know, start fresh, you'll Introduce yourself any way you want to be known. And we'll dig into you a little bit. And then I think I really am, I've become very interested in the idea that people don't, aren't aware of why they're doing things. And I would, I would love to like, just talk about diabetes a little bit. And then, you know, kind of pick through that, if that's something you're comfortable with. Sure. Cool. Go ahead, introduce yourself.
Kimberly Groves, PsyD 5:48
Okay. Um, my name is Kim groves. I am a licensed clinical psychologist in Cherry Hill, New Jersey and type one diabetic.
Scott Benner 5:57
Kim, at the end of this, if people are just like, I loved Kim, and I want to see her Do you have to live in New Jersey for that to happen?
Kimberly Groves, PsyD 6:05
telehealth has offered some, you know, loosening of regulations, but it's getting complicated, again with this C pack thing. So, yes, so just for a short answer, yes,
Scott Benner 6:17
yes. Even Philadelphia, it's right there on the other side of the river. That should
Kimberly Groves, PsyD 6:22
Yeah. During the pandemic, we were able to see I saw people across state lines often, because they, you know, because of the state of emergency, if it was also saved emergency in a different state, we were allowed to see people, which was great, because oftentimes, if we see someone who's in college, and they go to college, in a different state, we have to kind of pause treatment. So it really allowed for, you know, those cases to continue to be seen. So it's it's been kind of nice with that, but I think they're tightening back up.
Scott Benner 6:49
Were those people grandfathered in?
Kimberly Groves, PsyD 6:53
No, it was just all due to the state of emergency where they were historically insurance. And, and our licensing boards wouldn't allow it because they were, you know, different state regulations, we have to take a jurisprudence exam in New Jersey to know the laws to which you would have to follow in a state of like a crisis situation that I don't know, in every state. So typically, it wouldn't be ethical for me to see someone where if they became suicidal, I don't know what to do in Virginia, so to speak. But when the world was in the state of emergency, the beginning figure there's bigger fish to fry. So by
Scott Benner 7:27
you wouldn't know what to do. You mean, you wouldn't know the people that contact or write protocol calls that they follow? Not that people's problems are different state to state? No, I guess they are, but not the core issues. Right. But maybe the Yeah, like I don't think I've ever had stress over working in a coal mine, for instance, that I don't see how that happened to me, I'd have to live near a coal mine for that to happen. But right, the stress would be okay, I'm okay. Okay. Sorry. I just want to understand, because it's one of those things that when people say it out loud, it sounds stupid, you know, like, but understanding the back, the kind of the back room reasoning for it that it makes sense. You know, like, why would it matter if you lived in Pennsylvania and experiencing anxiety and really liked Kim, and she was helping you the one thing I did find strange in that answer was that if you pick somebody up during the pandemic, you're helping them, and then all of a sudden, you have to cut them free. Is it? Is it professionally on you to find them someone else to speak to? How does that work?
Kimberly Groves, PsyD 8:31
Yeah, we, we make sure to find referrals within the area that they're in and, you know, try to, you know, we can coordinate with a new clinician to kind of catch them up to speed if the client would like, or we can have no contact if they want to start fresh. But yeah, I mean, this is all been brand new and a typical, but some states, you know, some therapists in my practice, I've gotten emails saying you have a week to terminate with this case, because we've decided you're no longer allowed to work across this particular state line. And then they have a week to scramble and find somebody new. And, you know, the mental health pandemic is a real thing. And we I my practice alone has about a six month waiting list. So it's a little complicated in one week's time to find a new person, depending on the state so because
Scott Benner 9:17
other people are gonna be in that same situation, right? What was the waitlist, like prior to COVID?
Kimberly Groves, PsyD 9:24
We always had one, but it was, I would say closer to three months.
Scott Benner 9:30
Wow, you almost need to know you need help before you need help. Right? What happens to somebody who's in an emergency situation that gets referred to a hospital?
Kimberly Groves, PsyD 9:40
It does unless it's you we do consider acuity when we have an intake, we will kind of we've transitioned to doing an intake first to just see what the need is for a person and then determine Is it safe to wait? Is it worth the wait for this particular treatment for you or should you go elsewhere? You might be able to be seen sooner or do you need to go Go hospital.
Scott Benner 10:00
So you can, it is a little on you can you can recognize a real imminent issue that might be common safety and say okay, no, no, there's no way you come right out like that kind of an idea. Yeah. Are you seeing people in person yet?
Kimberly Groves, PsyD 10:15
No, we've just started to talk about that. But it's in the regulations are still really strict where we'd be able to only see about half the number of patients a day than typical. And we'd have to do things that in a therapeutic relationship is a little odd, like temperature, tech checks and texting, it just kind of changes the whole dynamic of it also. So I've been a little hesitant to take that step. But theoretically, we're allowed, but I think it'll be another couple months before we're really back in the office.
Scott Benner 10:47
So when somebody comes walking through the door, it should feel like they're just walking into the den of their own home, and it's comfortable, and you're there. And it's Hi, and have a seat and how are you? And then it should feel it shouldn't be, please sit behind this Plexiglas while I take your temperature. And then let's talk through a facemask. Because that could already be the issue. Right?
Kimberly Groves, PsyD 11:07
Exactly. And my practice, actually, a lot of the clinicians specialize in treating OCD. And so that's been a whole separate issue of you know, people who previously had, you know, significant anxiety surrounding contamination, now come into this, quote, unquote, safe place with Plexiglas and temperature checks, and don't touch me, just kind of sets the stage for an anxiety provoking situation, which is the exact opposite world in some respects than what we want.
Scott Benner 11:35
I'm going to ask you a question that there's no way either of us could have known we were going to talk about so. Okay, I was remembering the other day that when I was in elementary school, ish, middle school, elementary, 6/6, fifth, sixth, seventh grade in that space there. I remember for the first time hearing, that if I slept on the crack in the sidewalk, it would break my mother's back. Okay. Right, this idea. And one day walking to school, along this long path, I recognized that I was unconsciously avoiding stepping on the splits in the sidewalk. I didn't think much of it. And then I came home, and it happened again. And then I went to school the next day, and it happened again, and about the third or fourth time it happened. Even as a young kid, I physically stopped myself, I stopped walking, I stopped myself mentally. And I said, This is ridiculous. Stop it, and then forced myself to step on the cracks checked on my mom after work, boom, turned out chairback was okay. And I moved forward. Did I stop myself from slipping into an OCD ritual?
Kimberly Groves, PsyD 12:45
Absolutely. That's there's exposure response prevention treatment right? There. Seriously? That's essentially Yeah, I mean, because, you know, for someone who becomes conscious of that, and then connects that what we call magical thinking to this is why mom's back hasn't broken in the past three days. So I didn't do this, I need to keep this up. And then it turns into all these other rituals that can really spiral out of control. And then you lose the evidence of stepping out a crack and your mom's back not breaking. And the further away you get from that, the harder it is to believe in it. So you exhausted that immediately, which was smart. I was
Scott Benner 13:19
a, I was a chubby little kid. So I didn't have anything else to do except for things. So I was able to spend my time. I wasn't busy with sports, or friends or anything like that. So I had plenty of time to think things through. But No, but seriously, I still I don't have a ton of childhood memories. But I could paint you a picture of that moment. Like I remember thinking, Hey, this is a weird, slippery slope. You're on here, buddy. Like, let's get off right now. And it doesn't make any sense. So let's just stop it. It really was. It was interesting. And if anything like that ever pops up. What are some other things like, you know, when you're driving on the highway, and you hit the Like, there's, there's you don't realize even on blacktop highways, but they're done in sections. So everyone smile, you hear it, click, click, click, click while you're driving like that. And I if I would find myself even like tapping my finger in between the cliques, I immediately put a stop to it. And I don't even feel like that was an odd thing. I just, it seemed to me reminiscent of the first thing and I was like, I never wanted to, but I don't have that happen to me frequently. It's just that if it should pop up during my life, I squelch it really quickly. Good. I don't know. I'm just that just really you said OCD. And I thought I wonder how many people that happens to where you just kind of fall into it? Is it um, is OCD like stuff like that an indication of something else? Or is it unto itself?
Kimberly Groves, PsyD 14:47
It depends. I mean, everything is kind of on a continuum. So there are some cases where it seems very much just biologically based and and you really can't make any connection as to who what where, why, but if you're prone to Anxiety by nature. And you know, even something like the stepping on the cracks happens, you know, there it's an unknown and unknowns are anxiety provoking. And that could be why you remember it even though it didn't go too far. Is there an emotion that starts to connect to an experience? And if you're already predisposed to being anxious, that's where it can, you know, again, kind of snowball into something that eventually presents some CD. It's interesting.
Scott Benner 15:23
Really? Yes. I'm sorry. That was way off of why you're here to talk. Yeah. I appreciate you answering. Yeah. Okay. So I have become super interested in helping people understand the things that they don't even understand about themselves. from, from a couple of different perspectives wrapped around diabetes. Before we get into those things, though. You have type one. Yes. Oh, when were you diagnosed? 15 years ago. 2006 2006. And you're 30 now so you were 15?
Kimberly Groves, PsyD 15:58
Yeah, yes. Let's pretend. Now. I will be 30 I'll be 38 next week. Okay,
Scott Benner 16:06
so eight years plus 15 makes you 23 when you were diagnosed? I was 22. I think that was close. Cheese. Kim. Just go with it. I mean, okay. Yeah, sure. Better cozier later, wouldn't it be great if I just if one day my math worked out? People just started going? Yeah, that's amazing. Scott, congratulations. You've added two small numbers together. Anyway,
Kimberly Groves, PsyD 16:31
no, you know, I actually will say that birthday mess is very complicated. When we do IQ tests, we have to calculate someone's age to the date as we're administering the test. And I've always found it the most stressful part of administering that exam. Because when you throw in the January factor, it gets complicated. So
Scott Benner 16:50
I have to be honest, you're not alone. I just talked to whatever voice assistant is around and say, how many days? Or has it been since blah, blah, blah, and then convert the days into yours? Yeah, I cheat a lot. And that goes all the way back to high school one day when I was like, I'll have a calculator when I'm adult. Why do I need to understand this? And meanwhile, I really didn't need to understand that math. And I feel stupid for not paying closer attention to it. Again, not the point. How was your diagnosis was it I mean, you were in college or out of college by then?
Kimberly Groves, PsyD 17:22
I was in graduate school. So I was living in Missouri at the time. I'm from New Jersey. So I was living in the middle the country. And I was my father was a type one diabetic. And he so I was familiar with diabetes. And I was I was actually ironically in a health psychology class at the time learning about teasing out different medical issues from psychological issues such as you know, depression can often look like high blood sugars, hypothyroidism, things like that. So we learned the basics to just know if someone should be seeking medical care versus loss. And, and I remember there was a slide about type one diabetes and the Hallmark symptoms that just never came up with my dad. I always knew he was type one, but never talked about his diagnosis. So I actually didn't even know the Hallmark symptoms, which were of course the weight loss, frequent thirst and urination. And, and I remember looking down and I had about four bottles of water or coffee or Red Bull. I was sitting on a sweatshirt because my tailbone was digging into the seat. And I would take full naps and our five minute breaks between classes, like during class, and frequent urination. I was like, Huh. Like when also, I guess I just didn't consider it was my age. I thought I dodged the bullet. And then I went out and I called my dad after that class, and I said, Hey, this is what I just learned. What do you think? And he said, to go by a meter, and you start testing. And then and then he did, which he thought it would lower blood sugar, recommend that I start drinking beer to lower my blood sugar because I worked
Scott Benner 19:08
for my father, because your dad would get low when he was drinking.
Kimberly Groves, PsyD 19:12
Yeah, I mean, eventually lowers your blood sugar. So he was thinking, all right, I can't give you my insulin pen right now. So just go drink a beer and get a meter and call the doctor.
Scott Benner 19:23
That's great. Oh my gosh, how old is your father now? So he actually he passed away last month. Oh, I'm so sorry.
Kimberly Groves, PsyD 19:33
That's okay. Actually huge unsolicited shout out to dex comms follow up though. He was I followed his sugars. He begrudgingly allowed that and one day he was the no data popped up and had actually happened a week before. And I called him and he was trying to shield his irritation because I you know, he's someone I had diabetes 41 Yours, you don't want to be bothered about it. But I was worried he lives alone. He was 73. And I was like, why is there no data? And he's like, I just ripped it off those annoying, like, okay. So, so he would do that. So I wasn't immediately alarmed. But then there was a couple hours, no data was no day. So I finally called him he didn't answer. I have two brothers. They both called he didn't answer as well. And text, he wouldn't get back to us. So my brother went over to his house and found him on the ground, he had had a stroke. And he was still alive, though. He's still breathing. And so we got into the hospital in time to where we were able to be there to say goodbye. And I think the follow up for that, because had I had no indication that anything was wrong. I probably wouldn't have checked until the next day.
Scott Benner 20:47
So when I got into say goodbye, I don't. Yeah, I'm so sorry. I know. For people listening, Kim and I recorded once already, and we had really bad technical issues. So I know some things about her. So when I asked about your data, I expected fully that he'd be alive and with us when you answer the question I apologize for, for bringing that up for you. But Wow, no, that's crazy. And you make me reconsider. I joke with Kelly sometimes she'll like wake up and she's like, is Arden alright? Like sometimes it just hits her like that when she wakes up? You know? And, and I go in the room and and I'm like, She's fine. I said, she's a little low. Like we fix it. She goes, You sure she's alright. I was like, I don't think she'd have a blood sugar if she was that. I like I'll joke like that sometimes trying to light heart and I realize it's probably not everybody's level of humor. But But, but it always makes me wonder like if a person wearing a CGM were to pass away with the CGM. How long would it be able to still read interstitial fluid, but your dad just was like he got irritated and took it off?
Kimberly Groves, PsyD 21:52
Yeah, not that time, though. The second time it was because he was. So actually he wasn't he wasn't fully dead. He was essentially brain dead. But no, this is he when they when the paramedics got there. So there was no data. And then I got there. And then when they cleared out his pathway and intubated him, his blood sugar's turn back on, why does he just start working again?
Scott Benner 22:13
Yeah, so that so when the circulation moved to a crawl in his body, than the interstitial fluid wasn't moving, and it couldn't read anything. And then when he Wow, that's insane. And I so sorry, that this is about your father, and so recent, because you just use the phrase fully dead. And I would like to joke with you about but I know, it's, it's just that we shouldn't. But let us remember him as the man who would have met a newly diagnosed person and told them, why don't you just get a beer until you can find an endo? Because that's rocks, right information. And I story. Yeah, I will put like a blurb in somewhere where we tell people that's not good advice. But um, I saw, you could see his thinking in it, though. It's really interesting. Yeah. I, you know, assuming next time he'd say, you know, I would prefer if he would have said, once you go for a walk or get exercise, there's other ways to make it happen. So, so Kim, I think going back to what I said before, and I guess kind of starting with people with type one diabetes, and I don't want to talk about parents and people a little bit but starting with people with diabetes. My, my biggest like interest is the illusion that people who don't manage in a way that ends with good healthy outcomes somehow don't care about themselves. And it can't be true that people don't care about themselves right? Or can it? What is it really happening to someone? And why does it look like they're just not concerned?
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Here we are again, and by Here we are again, I mean, me and you and us and them, everybody. We're here. What do we all need? We need a meter that works. We need a meter that works well. That works easily. And that works in every situation that we find ourselves in. Everyone who is using insulin needs a blood glucose meter that does those things. And I think you should check out the Contour Next One blood glucose meter. Now why is that? Well, yes, they paid me to tell you. But that's not why we've been using the the Contour Next One blood glucose meter for a long time around here and it is safe, not the best blood glucose meter I've ever used while Arden has had type one, and she has had type one now for just about 15 years. This one is accurate, it is easy to hold, easy to transport and easy to use in dark situations, I think that's really what you need. But on top of all that the Contour Next One blood glucose meter has amazing accuracy. And it features Second Chance test strips. And that means that you can touch some blood not good enough, and go back and get more without ruining the strip, or the accuracy the test and I don't want you to misunderstand, this meter doesn't need a lot of blood. I'm just saying you know, there's times where you come in sideways and you get a little or you can't get your finger to like an ear squeezing and squeezing a tiny bit comes out and you know, you save yourself like this will be enough. And you know, you know it won't be enough. But you just can't get any blood to come out. So you're just going for it and you touch it and it's not enough. And you gotta get more, I'm saying that situation, you're still gonna get accuracy and reliability, clear and easy to read screen. And if you want Bluetooth connectivity to your iPhone or Android to save your data. And if you don't want to, you don't have to like you can use the meter independent, or you can use it in conjunction with the app, you should go check it out at Contour Next one.com forward slash juice box absolutely terrific device actually possible that it might cost you in cash, less for the test trips, then you're paying through your insurance company for the one you have now. So it's really worth looking into for a number of different reasons. And the website's super instant, super insistency super easy to navigate, and easy to use. So won't take any time at all to look through Contour. Next One comm forward slash juicebox there's links in the show notes of your podcast player, or links at Juicebox Podcast comm if you can't remember that contour link that I just gave you. Alright, let's get to Kim, she can answer my question. And we'll get back into the flow this conversation. I love it. It really picks up here a little bit. Catch our stride, you know what I mean? Like a five row we're like moving groovy like, you know, it really takes off.
Kimberly Groves, PsyD 27:52
I mean, I think, you know, that's that's such an individualized situation. I mean, I think even someone who would say they don't care about themself, likely does in just maybe a very distorted unhealthy way. Because, you know, underneath it all everyone has, has an ego. So it's there somewhere, it just might be masked in, you know, some maladaptive patterns. So I think poor management, you know, again, I think is what comes up on your podcast a lot about just timing, you know, decades ago, what was said to people, you know, a lot of the, the barriers to management have changed now. So I think the reasoning will be very different from someone who was diagnosed, you know, 30 years ago versus today, because it's much easier to manage than it was historically. But I just think there's so many different stages you go through, so I don't mind answering the question, but I feel like it just it would I have a million questions for that particular person?
Scott Benner 28:53
Yeah. And I want to keep talking through it. Like, I don't expect you to be like, oh, here's a simple here's why Scott, cuz blue. You know what I mean, buddy? No, no, I, I imagine that. Like going back decades, there just weren't any more answers, right? Like that would you know, going back 30 years ago and saying, someone eventually ended up in renal failure or had a heart attack because of, you know, crazy all over the place blood sugar, so they, you know, twice a year, we're being picked up by paramedics because they passed out while they were sleeping and that having seizures like that I get, it's just a lack of, like, science just hasn't moved far enough. It would be like if I went and found a caveman and said, Can you believe these guys can't get to the moon? Like you mean? Like, they just didn't have enough tools? And so I would imagine at some point, you just settle into, Hey, I got a disease. This is as manageable as it is. It's probably going to shorten my lifespan somehow. I'm gonna try to be happy. But nowadays, is it just like, could it be frustration Could it be that you don't like what happens to a person once they're frustrated enough times and don't have have an answer, like is giving up? Is that is giving up a coping mechanism? Like if you just can't fight the fight one more time, because it doesn't seem to be a win at the end?
Kimberly Groves, PsyD 30:13
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it is a 24 seven disease. And you know, that comes with burnout. And if someone doesn't have strong coping skills or you know, issues with their self esteem, or they're battling something, they're unconscious, you know, that could certainly result in not taking care of your health.
Scott Benner 30:34
If I said to you, that I want to retask a word, and I give you the idea of two boxers in front of you. And they're hitting each other over and over again, and one of them just can't hit it anymore. And they take one last big blow, and they fall over. And I want to say to you, instead of saying that that person lost, they burned out in that situation, right? They just couldn't fight anymore, is because I'm, I'm always I always rub up against the word burn out a little bit, like, like, it feels like it doesn't do the situation justice to me. Does that make sense? Meaning it minimizes it? I guess. So I guess meaning that there's so much more to it than just, I just couldn't do this. And I didn't want I think people read it as I didn't want to do it anymore. And I don't think it's a want. I think it's I think it's just you got hit one too many times, and you can't get back up again. And I know that's a that's a slim difference. But not being able to persevere, and not wanting to persevere, are two different things.
Kimberly Groves, PsyD 31:40
Yeah, absolutely. I think you can even look at that on a bad day, you know, a roller coaster day where you, by the end of that day, you just don't want to deal with your blood sugar anymore. And you might just sit a little high or, you know, not a little low but sit a little high, maybe more than you would typically because you just don't want to do it at the end of the day that a great doesn't equal, someone who doesn't care about it or want to take care of it in general just can be exhausted.
Scott Benner 32:06
And then you don't if you don't have the tools, then that's evil. Because I do see people like you said, maybe not so much low, but I do see people who spend a day at 55. And they're feeding their basil all day long. And it for some and it never occurs to them to just dial the basil back. Right, they get they get caught in this idea that, hey, this Basal rates worked for me for weeks and months, it can't possibly be that. But on that day, maybe that's not your problem. Like maybe the maybe the reason you're low, didn't begin with your basil being too high. But at this point, now whatever that thing is, your basil is holding you at 55. And instead of continuing to feed it, it would be so simple to back it off, feed it once and start over again. But instead, you'll see people get trapped for 1218 hours like I've been at that I'm exhausted, I can't eat anymore. Like you know, it really does happen. And and not being able to turn immediately to the insulin and say like how can I adjust this insulin so that this stops happening is a step that a lot of us step a lot of people miss and they get caught in that thing. And then I guess sort of like the stepping on the cracks. You can you can lean into it. And then a bad day can turn into a bad week can turn into a bad month can turn into like, my a once has been bad this year. And you know, like when do you stop yourself from stepping on the crack, like when you just go Screw it, I'm gonna stay on the crack for a while, like I'm gonna force myself back to doing this thing. And, and I guess also, once you start drifting in one of those directions, either very high blood sugars, very low blood sugars, you alluded to it earlier. It starts impacting you, your your mental acuity, and then maybe you get put in a position where you can't get out of it. Right? Because you're physically unable. So if that happens to people, how do they reset? Because that's the key right is to stop and start over. Where am I wrong?
Kimberly Groves, PsyD 34:02
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, and I think too, there's that's where I think some of the the knowledge that you've offered to the community is what's lacking for a lot of other people. And I think that's where people get fixed on those Will my Basal right rate is where it's supposed to be based on my inner said, two months ago, when I see him next month, I'll bring up that it seems to be off. And I think there's a large chunk of people that are kind of stuck in that mindset. That might change a little but wouldn't just let that day be. Well, today this is working. So I need to lower my basil rate for the day and not overthink it or feel like they need to consult their endo on it. So I think even they're just the knowledge base still is is a problem.
Scott Benner 34:43
What is that thing right there where you've run into a problem? You can I need a simpler explanation. Why would someone eat a bowl full of potato chips today? think to themselves consciously. This is not how For me, I'm not going to do this again, and then have a bowl of potato chips tomorrow. Like, take the food aspect out of it like, what's the piece in there? That makes the fight to fight your demon? Worse than the outcome you're going to have by continuing on the path? is there is there a human component to that, that you like no name for that I just wonder about.
Kimberly Groves, PsyD 35:27
I mean, it reminded me a little bit about someone, you know, most people either have kind of an internal sense of control and demand over their life or an external. And so I've used someone who would feel like I have diabetes, you know, and it's just like, it kind of owns them. And I need to consult an endo or everything's just kind of outside of themself, can get really stuck in those patterns of behavior, versus someone who has an internal locus of control and demand saying, okay, I've been diagnosed with this, how am I going to handle it, I'm not going to eat potato chips, because my you know, I don't want to wait, that's a long Pre-Bolus. Or I don't, it's not worth it to me, because the way that affects my body, so I'm gonna have fake potato chips, or you know, something and just kind of take more control over it. So I think that connects a little bit to esteem. But I think it's also the way people are raised. And I find that, that whether you feel in control of your life, or you let your life control you affects a lot.
Scott Benner 36:27
So there are people who feel like they can do anything. And there are people that feel like there's an institution or a thing that's running their situation. Yes. Okay. Is that does that normally fall along religious lines? Or could that could be political, I guess, as well, or even inside of a family? You know, my dad makes the decisions, my mom goes along with it, vice versa, that kind of thing.
Kimberly Groves, PsyD 36:52
I think it's deeper than that. I think it's I think it really is just something a little more. in me, that is skewed by early childhood experiences, typically. But you know, I think it's even if you look at religion, you could view that as how do I want to interpret this? versus, you know, I am to just follow the pack,
Scott Benner 37:14
the two people could go through the same experience and come out of it two different ways to absolutely, yeah. Because I see my upbringing is difficult for a kid. But it made me like, I'll say, like, jokingly, but I mean, this, I don't mean the part about the zombies. But if the zombies come, can you come find me, because we're making it to the end. And I don't know why that is. But that's how my hardships made me feel. Like I kept feeling like, this can't possibly be where I end up, like, I have to keep fighting. You don't I mean, like, there's a way out of this. And I used to base it on intellect, like, I would look around my surroundings and think like a person who's having my thoughts. Like, shouldn't be here. I don't think like I need to find the place where I belong. And this, isn't it. So I'll keep fighting to get out of this. And then I would just look for anything, any pathway, like I see life as an ever growing endless path of forks in the road. And you just come to one, make the best decision, come to the next one, make the best decision, just keep moving. But I know, people who grew up in similar situations to me, not in my not in my house, but in similar situations, and they crumbled. But they're not weak people. And it's fascinating, isn't it? So yeah, I mean,
Kimberly Groves, PsyD 38:42
okay, I think that's good. That's okay. I think that's a good example, though, of where you can see a little bit of the nature and the nurture. So maybe by nature, you have that just kind of a neat, you know, constitution have an internal sense of control and demand where I can figure this out. And then it sounds like your upbringing offered you an unfortunate scenario where you had to figure it out, and you had to kind of take some control and those different things so that probably just really send it home to have that, you know, confidence that zombie apocalypse, you'll figure it out because you
Scott Benner 39:18
have to, but then does it always bounce back and forth? Because now I'm, I recognize that my, my upbringing wasn't very supportive. So I'm more supportive of my kids, but my kids would see the zombies and be like, I mean, I guess we'll fight for a while but then I gotta find something else to do. You don't need me like, you know, they don't have that same. They didn't see the stuff I saw. So they don't they don't know how hard they you have to fight in those situations. I guess. I would just wonder like, Are my kids gonna raise tougher kids and their kids are gonna raise softer kids and their kids are going to raise tougher is it just it just bounce back and forth like that? Interesting,
Kimberly Groves, PsyD 40:01
it can go only, you know, in extreme situations, I mean there is often someone who grows up in a very dysfunctional household, then goes way too far in the other direction and coddles their children or shields them from any let downs in life. And then there are going to be these anxious sheltered kids that then wouldn't have that, you know, mental strength, so to speak, that you develop by learning that life is not all rainbows and butterflies. And then those kids could then in turn, go back and say, Good luck to their children, and let them you know, gain some street smarts and learn the hard way. And then there could be that back and forth. But usually it takes a really dysfunctional start to kind of start that cycle, I guess
Scott Benner 40:49
to those things are easier to learn when you're a kid, like sort of like snowboarding, when you don't really think about compound fractures, you just jump up on the thing and go, right. And then you can be presented with tough situations, fight through them, without the consequence being a real idea in your head. Right, yeah, that's interesting. So when people grow up, however, they grow up, and then they run into a diabetes diagnosis, you find some people who are just like, I'm not going to let this stop me, I don't care what happens. And you find some people who feel like that they run up against the thing or an institution, or in this case, a disease that is bigger than them, and it's going to run the situation for them. And they feel powerless in it. Is that right?
Kimberly Groves, PsyD 41:37
Yeah. And that could look kind of like a depressive, hopeless feel, or a more neurotic, anxious response to it, like, I'm gonna over research this, I'm gonna be perfect. I'm gonna, you know, that can be another way of responding to it versus what I think I told you before, I appreciate your perspective of here, right? I'd like more insulin, more carbs, you know, like that simplistic. This is today do any more insulin, instead of either over researching or feeling overwhelmed?
Scott Benner 42:06
Yeah, I feel, you know, of all the people whose situations I get to see from close up and afar, kind of mixed. It's interesting, because they're not right in front of me. But yet they'll share private stuff with me. The people that I end up feeling the worst for are the ones who are just like, tell me how much tell me exactly when to do it. I need to know the number. I know there's a there's an answer in here. And I'm like, Oh, that's, that's, that's bad, because those answers aren't going to be the same in three hours. So you need more of a vibe way of handling this and, and less of a, you know, how it's written down. I mean, it works for some stuff. Like, don't get me wrong, but but those people I feel badly for, because they seem the least flexible. And yeah, that flexibility is so super important with all this. Yeah. Okay. So kind of switching gears a little bit to like, the parenting side are the things that we talked about? so far? I imagine that the answers lie somewhere in that to this question as well, how come some parents come off, like they don't care, and some of them come off, like, it's the most important thing in the world to them. Because they don't also believe that parents don't care. I feel like they get stuck in situations happens to men a lot to where they don't want to mess up. So they go with, I'm just not going to get involved. So I don't make it worse vibe. Do you see that a lot with parenting in general?
Kimberly Groves, PsyD 43:37
Um, what would you consider not caring in terms of having a diabetic child? What have you seen that look like?
Scott Benner 43:45
They don't want to understand how to count carbs, or where to put the insulin and they you know, a blood sugar goes to 350 for six hours. And they say something like, it'll be all right. You know, but they don't want to. But if someone comes along a spouse, for instance, and says, Hey, I think if we just would have done this, this and this, this could have gone better than the doctor said, it's fine. That comes off as not caring to the other spouse. Yeah, you know, especially when one yeah, I'm trying really hard and the other one appears to not be doing anything.
Kimberly Groves, PsyD 44:14
Right, which is where I think then that can be I think, regardless, that tends to be more about either the individual parent or the marriage. You know, if there's sometimes in a marriage, if one party is the, you know, more neurotic one, the other person tends to maybe go further than even their natural baseline would be in terms of more relaxed to kind of create some balance and maybe that theoretically, in their mind would be for the child's interest of let's just let them be a kid to offset like so. You know, maybe the mom who's measuring everything you know, I think it can pull for extreme behaviors on either end. It might not actually be a not caring parent.
Scott Benner 44:53
Oh, so they come farther out like you for me to person who feels like they're vibrating. Do you know what I mean by that? Like they're so like nervous or anxious or whatever, like, you can almost feel like when you're in the room with them that they're vibrating. And I know that's a weird, but they're. So you're saying that if I'm in a situation with a person like that, I might go to the opposite, like, I might go to the extreme end of mellow to try to make a balance in the room. Yes. Oh, and that happens a lot.
Kimberly Groves, PsyD 45:22
Yeah, especially within a family system. I mean, there's what we call a family homeostasis, where there needs to be balanced. And so you know, everyone has kind of has their personality setup. And then based on what the family dynamics are, you kind of go into these different roles to create a sense of balance for the the greater system. And so if there's a super neurotic, vibrating wife, then the husband, who might not be super laid back might feel the need to be even more laid back in that family system to get to that homeostasis.
Scott Benner 45:53
Does the family. Oh, this is so interesting. So is there. So does everybody not necessarily get to be who they are, but they get to be their part in it. So there's an alpha, which probably gets to go first. And then right, and then the spouse acts the part that makes balance between the two of them. And then I would imagine one of the kids probably slips into a role, which could make other children's is my dog acting differently? Because now I am is what I need? Like, would my dog be a different dog? If he lived in a different house? Oh, my God, he would, wouldn't he? Kim, go ahead and read the research. But I would say I would venture to guess Yes. My God, none of us are being ourselves because of who we're coupled with. Well, you're you're the self within your family system. And does that work for situations as well? Like, are some people different because of diabetes than they would be without diabetes? Sure, gotta be, and I don't.
Kimberly Groves, PsyD 46:55
Yeah, I mean, I don't think it makes you not be yourself. It's yourself in a situation or in a relationship. And I don't think you have to be compromising who you are. I think that's why it's important that especially in a marriage, each party has their own individual thing, you know, outlet where maybe if there is something that they're, you know, leaving a little bit to the side for that greater good, which is healthy to have that outlet for that part of yourself. But it's, you know, that's what relationships are.
Scott Benner 47:25
Wow, this is great. I wish I would have had decent parents to explain the world to me, this would have been, I don't like, and I don't enjoy learning this stuff when I'm 50. I mean, I've seen it. You know what I mean? Like, I've witnessed it, and it makes sense. I've never had anybody say, yes, that that is right. I just I'm always guessing. Oh, so Okay. Alright, let's find, let's find the scenario here. So if you're in a relationship, or you're married, and your husband's the domineering one, and you're the laid back one in a in a male female relationship, and then the kid gets diabetes, the vibe that the husband takes, ends up being the direction, and then you have to play off that direction. And so if the husband takes a laid back 300 blood sugar's fine vibe, not only do you have to find a way to manage it, but you have to find a way to manage it without pissing off the alpha in that situation, where you have to get to the alpha and change their mind about it. And that doesn't sound easy at all.
Kimberly Groves, PsyD 48:33
Right? And it would depend on I guess, the reasoning if the alpha didn't want to take on the blood sugar, due to, you know, for whatever reason, and the other person was willing to take it, then that could just offset it. But yeah, there needs to be an unconscious negotiation that occurs. Yeah, nobody said, You're
Scott Benner 48:56
not really supposed to say this stuff out loud. It's like a dance, right? Yeah, you don't look at somebody and go, Hey, you're kind of an app on this. So what I'm gonna do is like, because that doesn't work what you have to so interesting, so talking is not always the key. Sometimes, I mean, go ahead, but sometimes those 50s ladies knew what they were doing. Right? Like, yeah, you know, in certain respects, absolutely. I'll put beaver in the backyard. I'll make I'll make a high ball for him when he comes home, get them a little chilled out and then we'll start telling them how much the plumbing bill is like that kind of stuff. What about like, when somebody throws it on you? What happens when you're not the alpha but you're also not ready for this thing. And, and someone your spouse is just like, well, you'll take care of it, you're home with them. And then you're you're sitting there thinking like, I can't do this either. Like, what the hell like I got diabetes for not having a full time job. Like that's, you know, II mean, like, how do they get thrown on me, and then you feel overwhelmed, and there's no one to go To this is a disaster Kim, is it true? Is it true that divorce goes up? When you have a chronically ill child?
Kimberly Groves, PsyD 50:08
it I mean, it could, it's because of that type of scenario. So if that person felt like it was being dumped on them, and they're not communicating, I mean, really, regardless of what the marital issue is, it tends to often just go back to communication. So if that spouse that felt dumped on, didn't have the either willingness or ability to effectively communicate to the other, that they felt that way, and that they were overwhelmed, and they couldn't find a common ground with that, then it is going to lead to a divide in the marriage that will just grow in something like diabetes, you know, can certainly make that, you know, distance more toxic than some other issues.
Scott Benner 50:50
But so we're having this conversation about like these kind of high minded ideas, but we're not really even far enough along in our evolution to deal with this stuff. Because this isn't really what ends up happening, right? What ends up happening is there's a rift, that will likely make the female feel less close to the male, that usually ends in less intimacy, when you take the intimacy away from the husband that it hits their ego, and then we're just spiraling towards divorce. That's basically what happens to people, right? Yeah, let's say go therapy go to therapy. How many hundreds of years are we away from people being able to understand that as it's happening, like in the moment, because right now, if people are listening to this, they're like, oh, a lot of this sounds familiar in my life, but I don't really, they don't consciously see the you know, what the things happening? They just see, like, we see real top level stuff. Like, oh, we used to have sex a lot. Now we don't as much she doesn't like me. I'm gonna start talking to Kim at work. Like you don't even like that. It just gets very base at that point, right?
Kimberly Groves, PsyD 51:59
Yeah, yeah. And it's Yeah, because it gets to be a touchy subject, I think especially like something with diabetes or chronic illness, it's a very heavy subject, and it becomes about the kids too. And it's, it's something that's very easy to avoid. And then days pass months pass years pass, and then it can just get harder and harder to get back on the same page. So,
Scott Benner 52:23
so are people's lives basically, having lost, getting together, getting into a slow unconscious decline. And then either Luckily, or unluckily bumping into something that brings it to the boil.
Kimberly Groves, PsyD 52:40
Yeah, I mean, I think I know, general awareness. Yeah. I think it's when you start to feel that way. I mean, that's what makes marriage hard, right, is that it's that dynamic happens, it changes when you have kids, it changes when there's life stressors, it changes with, you know, finances, and then you also individually change after a decade and more and, you know, and that's where it is work, to, to maintain a sense of self and, you know, wanting to be a part of that system. And so, it doesn't have to be a divide, but it just, it often does, especially these days, when life is so busy, and it's complicated. And again, it's very attractive to avoid conversations that, you know, could be difficult when it's just easier to just do the thing and solve the problem and move on. You know, if people, they'll start to have some awareness of, you know, I don't want this person to be around me, or I'm not even gonna tell him about this decision, because it's too heavy, then that should be a little bit of a red flag of something things wrong. And it's, it's, you know, early intervention is very important in terms of marital conflict.
Scott Benner 53:44
The the part I find sad is that as I get older, and I understand things better, that there's no way to go back and do it again. Like, that's the part that's just maddening. You're like, oh, wow, I see when I was 25. What I should have done there, and it's too late, or I see when I was 35. And I did this thing, and it impacted my children. Like, I can't just go back and explain it to them now. Like now they're just gonna have to live through it come into their own situation, and hopefully, do better with it than I did. It's that slow progress of mankind. Maybe you were not supposed to live this long. Like maybe it's not healthy to be able to, like, see what you did wrong. You don't I mean, like, cuz if I would have dropped out when I was 40, I would have had none of these thoughts. And I would have just been like, I did my best. I'm out of here. Whoo. You don't I mean, like I now now 10 years later, you start like getting kind of like thoughtful about it. And you're like, Oh, I see. And by the way, you can't I can speak for me and not all men, but you can't be thoughtful till the testosterone like dies down a little bit. Because until then, you're just constantly just like, oh my god boobs. Like, it just feels like that all the time. I know that space but it really is how it feels like you're just constantly thinking about pretty things or attractive things or whatever your vibe is. And then finally, when that kind of like dies down, you're like, Oh, I have more time to pay attention to other stuff. Now, you're not like on that mad terror to like be connected to somebody physically, which is, I'm assuming most of men's problems, right?
Kimberly Groves, PsyD 55:16
Well, I mean, it's the more primitive part of our brain that may be is, is to your point of if we were meant to live this long, and then you can access the prefrontal cortex once that the hormones are settling down in that region. And and then, since you are alive, you get to experience the wisdom of old age. If I could get 100 more years, I'd
Scott Benner 55:35
be a genius. Like, that's all I know, for certain, like, if I kept going at this, I'd finally be like, thoughtful and like, I think I'd be, I don't know, it's just the saddest part of being alive. Is it just as you're figure stuff out? Doesn't matter anymore. No one's listening to you. Just like that old man's babbling about something doesn't make any Meanwhile, you're finally making sense and you can't get the thoughts out. It really is interesting. So what okay? So we've picked through the things that I'm, I find myself interested with, and I appreciate you doing that with me, is, is literally therapy. The only way through this, because therapy really is a speeding up of being alive, right? It's having more conversations where you learn and build and learn and build instead of waiting for those scenarios to pop up in your life. And then actually being comfortable. Because you said something a second ago, like sometimes people don't say things. So sometimes you get to a learning moment, and you avoid it on purpose. But in therapy you can write is that ideal? Yeah.
Kimberly Groves, PsyD 56:38
Yeah, I mean, it certainly there's there's other avenues than therapy, but really, then it is kind of just life experiences. Whereas I think, people I might have mentioned this before, but I'll say it again, is I think, being a therapist during this pandemic, for me, it's been very interesting, because I people who never would have gone to therapy are now going. And I think people view therapy as I'll go with, there's a real problem or somebody you know, someone says, maybe you should talk to someone, no, it's not that bad. You know, wait till it's that bad. And it's really not that all that effective or deep. It's just Okay, let's figure out how to stop the bleeding. And then people will just go at Yeah, versus, you know, like, I've never, I've never really understood why I do this, or I keep finding myself in these patterns and behaviors and relationships that are unfulfilling, and I don't know what that's about. You know, and that doesn't seem like a, so you should go to therapy thing, but that is the best reason to go to therapy. And that's where you can kind of get to that, you know, emotional space of being that is a little typically beyond barriers. If all goes well.
Scott Benner 57:43
Can I ask a personal question? Sure. What's it like to have someone come in professionally, and have a problem that you have that you don't resolve? But you know, how they can resolve it?
Kimberly Groves, PsyD 57:54
has to happen, right? I mean, it would, it would depend on what it is. Yeah, there were, I will say that this with the pandemic stressors, there was a couple overlaps, where it was like, all of a sudden, people are home all the time. They're, you know, homeschooling their kids, which for me was throwing a worksheet over the balcony. And, you know, those types of stressors were very, it was almost like saying, like, I could say everything, this person just said to someone else, and so I wouldn't see that person. Because you can't help someone when you're in the same space. I believe my coping skills were a little bit better than what that person was presenting with. But still, the next week, she said something in the back of my head to be like, yep, for worksheet over the balcony.
Scott Benner 58:47
Yeah, I'm not gonna charge you this week. So I would imagine it's almost like, it could be at times, like being a sports coach who can't play, right. Like you could run into that situation. Like, I know how to tell you how to run this route and catch this ball, but I can't do it. It's just It's very, the whole thing. Like when this all happened, there were like, people in our town, I was like, they're totally gonna get divorced before this is over. And it happened. Like you could see it. You know what I mean? Like, and, and there's one person I'm thinking of, who said to me, there's no way like this has to end or I'm not gonna be living here anymore. And I'll be damned. He was right. Like it was, I don't know if it was a self fulfilling prophecy. Or if he just saw, like, part of how I've kept this thing together is by not being here all the time. It was fascinating, really was brought a lot of things to a tool boil. That it's really it's sad. It really is. But is it? Kim? Shouldn't we be allowed? Shouldn't we not allowed? Shouldn't we be able to live together in a constant situation like this with I mean, you know, some breaks here and there but like, should a pandemic really cause that many people's relationships to fall apart?
Kimberly Groves, PsyD 1:00:00
Right. I mean, again, it's how you choose to respond to a stressor, you can let it own you or you can own it.
Scott Benner 1:00:07
So then big picture, is it better to hold things inside or sometimes argue and yell and then let it go? For people who aren't going to talk it through?
Kimberly Groves, PsyD 1:00:20
I mean, it depends how you define argue, but better, you know, even you know, parents are often so worried about their children ever seeing them fight. And as long as the fight is not, you know, intense, it's actually better for children to see conflict, and then conflict resolution, if it's reasonable. So yeah, better to air it out than to sit on something like that, that will eventually pass but was never addressed. And then you end up, you know, overly mad about laundry or things like that.
Scott Benner 1:00:50
Thank you. And you don't know why I'm thanking you. But that's how I do it. So I feel validated. Thank you. But I just I grew up in a place where nobody said anything. And it seemed to me. And then what happened was problems looked like leaving. Do you know what I mean? So the one thing I took from that when I got older was, if we have a problem, we should say it because maybe then somebody maybe then it'll work out or even just be expelled. Like, sometimes it's just something you get rid of, maybe there is no real resolution, maybe there doesn't need to be a resolution, maybe it'll never come up again. But you got to get that part out. Like you can't walk around angry all the time. I realized life is just a bunch of T shirt cliches. They're probably the probably the best advice sometimes. But yeah, don't go to bed angry is is a good one.
Kimberly Groves, PsyD 1:01:42
Yeah, and usually when you you bring something up, you, you know, you look behind, I mean, every behavior has an antecedent and an underlying value and intention. And usually, when you air something out, if there are two people who care about each other, you can usually get to a space where you see that the intention is, is good, even if a behavior is not do or the opposite. And that's a bigger problem.
Scott Benner 1:02:07
Ready? I'm gonna ask a weird question. Do you think people ever talk to their, their, their partners, and relay a story about someone else? That they really hope that the partner will take something out of for them? Like, of course, yeah. Right. Like, you're like, let me tell you about Jim, in this one over here. Second, you start telling your story when you're like, really, like, I hope that they hear that Jim was sad, and I'm sad. or, or, or that, or that, you know, that his wife was unhappy, and I think you're unhappy too, or like that kind of thing like I, but they want but that same person would never look at their, their, their partner and say, like, I think this is happening to you, or I feel this, why do we not say that? Because we're afraid that the answer won't be. I love you. And it's okay. And we'll fix it. To people not say what they want to say, because they're afraid they're going to hear you know what, I don't care about this. Leave me alone go away.
Kimberly Groves, PsyD 1:03:03
Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's, that would be a scary topic to bring up. And so I think it's easy for either people to hide it in a story like that or not say it at all.
Scott Benner 1:03:13
So rejection, you don't want to be rejected. Yeah, in that situation. I wonder if we could magically make everyone just say how they felt, if there would still be the same rate of divorce, but it would be the different people? Don't I mean, like, say there's, let's put 100 people in your mind and 50 on the left and 50 on the right. And if we all keep our thoughts inside the 50, on the left, end up getting divorced. I wonder if we all let our thoughts out if the 50 on the left would stay married and the 50 on the right, we get divorced, like I want. Does that make any sense? what I'm saying?
Kimberly Groves, PsyD 1:03:46
It'd be an interesting study, I think. I think that's probably two extremes. Because if you say everything, then that can be a very taxing relationship. Okay,
Scott Benner 1:03:55
so let's finish with that. There is stuff you don't say, right? Yes. Is it mostly you remind me of your mother. Listen, I'm just gonna give a little marriage advice right here. Your wife never reminds you of her mother there, I fixed your life for you. You don't do that. That one's a bad one. But, but there, there are some things that are people's feelings, right? And you and you have to take a hit. So that they don't have to, like you have to have a little selflessness. Like I feel bad about this thing. But by saying it out loud, I'm going to make you feel worse or you're going to feel bad and I'm going to feel better. I choose to feel badly instead of you just have to be some of that like, love. Yeah, yeah.
Kimberly Groves, PsyD 1:04:39
Absolutely. Like if you see, you know, your spouse doing something that you know isn't is out of anxiety or is out of wanting to fit in and you know, that it's, you know, I don't know a little foolish or you just have a feeling that you know it's not best, but saying that would just hurt them and make them feel worse. Used to For debate, you know, if it's not hurting anybody, and it makes them feel good, instead of calling them out in that scenario, you, you support it. Even if you feel like it's absurd.
Scott Benner 1:05:09
That's the married version of when your weird friend in ninth grade wears a fedora one summer, you just let it go. Exactly, exactly. You're just like, hey, Bill wants to wear a fedora. Why don't I gotta say, yeah, let it ride. Okay. What have we done here today? Again, in your mind, have we? Have we put your license in jeopardy? Or? No, we actually spoke I believe I heard you the whole time, which is nice. Yeah, I will explain a second that the first time we talked there was, it's it's interesting, actually, now that we think about it. Now that I think about it, we were having trouble communicating for technical reasons. And you were pretending that it was going better than it was. And I noticed something was wrong, but didn't bring it up.
Unknown Speaker 1:05:54
We were Yeah, we were kind of married there for an hour. And we were, and I need to practice what I preach. Because, oh,
Scott Benner 1:06:02
that just occurred to me, as we were saying, and I was like, oh, everything we just talked about, we didn't do for that hour. So Alright, so let me ask you, can you hear me I heard you say last year, but yeah, let me ask you one other question, then. This is popular right now. Right? The idea of people who, you know, have a standing in a community or in a, in a profession, getting together with someone else and talking about it so other people can hear it? Is it actually helpful? Or does it just is this just filling time for people in a different way? Like, can I actually I know that I can do a podcast about how to Bolus for something, and people can hear it and go back into their lives and make a meaningful change it? Is this something that could actually help somebody? Do you think this would actually take somebody and say, You know what, let me go talk to a therapist, before I get into a bigger problem, or while I do do that, like Can someone hear this and make a change? Is the is the stuff that's going on in your head more difficult than the stuff that's happening in the real world to fix? Was I clear? Well, are there two questions in there? Yeah, I guess there are. The first question is, is stuff like this actually helpful for people? Or was this just entertainment?
Kimberly Groves, PsyD 1:07:25
I mean, I would, I would hope so that wasn't really my intention, I guess I haven't really, ever listened to a professional in my field anyway, doing a podcast. So I don't know what the angle would be. In general, I would say, you know, there's some basic things that people can offer in this format that can be helpful, but likely not too much greater than a self help book or something like that. And I think the process of therapy is something that is, is very complex and personal and really needs to happen just between a therapist and a client.
Scott Benner 1:08:02
So if you heard something in this hour that resonates with you, the next step is to go find one on one treatment, not like try to figure this all out on your own.
Kimberly Groves, PsyD 1:08:11
Yeah, I mean, I'm very biased, but I feel like every person at some point in their life should give themself that gets.
Scott Benner 1:08:19
This is a bigger thing. This isn't like when electrician tells you, you can't put an outlet on your own, but you really can't. But they're just trying to make work for themselves.
Kimberly Groves, PsyD 1:08:27
No, go look at a really uncomfortable mirror for several months to get to know yourself in a way that is is at first uncomfortable, but ends up being you know, it can be very life changing.
Scott Benner 1:08:40
Right. Okay. Thank you. Did we not talk about anything that we should have in your opinion? No. Did you have fun this time? I did. It was much better experience. I'm glad to hear you. Again. I feel very badly that we did it the way we did last time and that I wasn't completely aware. I started saying to you before we hit record, that I'm I'm doing more than just having a conversation like I'm running the the I'm making sure this gets recorded. I'm making sure that it's going to sound good later. I'm trying to think of what the people listening want to hear and mixing that with my own like, kind of in the moment thoughts. And so I might have been a little disappointed. This sounds like I'm apologizing to my wife for not being present. I have a lot on my mind, Kim.
Kimberly Groves, PsyD 1:09:31
That's fine. I beat so then I will own my 50% that I I should have been more clear that I was really unable to have a genuine conversation with you because I was so frustrated with the technology. And I was just guessing what you were saying and I should have I should have realized that that was going to equal negative outcomes. So
Scott Benner 1:09:49
interestingly, you got frustrated about something that wasn't under your control, and then tried to make the best of it. instead of stopping and, and kind of resetting, you were like, I can probably do this. I wonder how often that happens to people in their day? I bet you It just happens constantly. If we all said what we were thinking, do you think we'd all just kill each other? Because, dude, cuz you, you know what people are thinking because they come tell you, right? They paint a scenario. They say, this is what happened. Here's what I was thinking during it. So. So if we all just blurt it out, but we were thinking, would it be bad? Or would it be good?
Kimberly Groves, PsyD 1:10:34
It depends. I mean, I get it. But maybe the first thought could be bad. But usually, if you dig deeper, it can be good.
Scott Benner 1:10:44
Do most people just want to be happy? Is that at the core of what they're what they want?
Kimberly Groves, PsyD 1:10:52
I would say more understood, I think happy is as a hard word to define. I think if people feel connected and understood that happiness is a level of security. Yeah,
Scott Benner 1:11:03
I have to say that when I feel frustrated I my go to is no one listens to me. And I'm assuming that's how I felt as a kid. Sure, right. And I, to be honest with you, it was and I've described on the podcast before that I was adopted by really amazing people who maybe were not exactly my equals. And no matter what I said, they kind of stared through me a lot of times. And so I always felt like no one was listening to me. When I guess if I was older, I would have understood that maybe they didn't understand what I was saying. And instead of just feeling like they were ignoring me, I think maybe they were just like, hmm, we adopted this little kid, that seems smart. We'll just whistle and look over here. Like, I think maybe it was more the vibe, but it followed me right into my adulthood. Like that. I do not like it when people don't listen. And to each other, even like it doesn't I don't even have to be involved. It makes me upset when people don't listen to each other.
Kimberly Groves, PsyD 1:12:01
Right? So if so, if you look at that, in terms of relationships, if you didn't have that insight, and you were just reactive to that, you know, and you were yelling at your wife, because she didn't pick something out, you asked her to on the way home, and then she saying my you know, he's a jerk or whatever. And then you're saying she's X, Y, or Z. So yes, if you say we were think right there, you look like a jerk. And then if you were to dig deeper into how come that made you so upset, and then get back to the point of as a child, I never felt heard. And when they something like that happens, they have not feeling heard. That's where eventually when you you speak to what the issue is, then likely your wife would have empathy. And you would, you know, be able to reel that in, but they didn't say, and then it's helpful.
Scott Benner 1:12:46
So you could get matched up with a person. This is interesting. Do you have a couple more minutes? I'm sorry? Sure. Yeah. So you could end up and by matched up I mean, you know, you find somebody attractive when you're younger, and you're like that one, you know what I mean? Like that feeling? Yep. And then by luck, that other person has had a childhood experience that plays well with your childhood experience. Or sometimes you meet somebody whose childhood experience helps your childhood experience and vice versa. Like sometimes you're just, you know, when people say like, oh, the part of the relationship they don't have, and they're the part of the relationship I don't have. And that can sometimes work for people, it's probably not a completely fulfilling existence. But it works. Or but or you could get put into a situation where you both grew up very similarly need the same thing. And therefore neither of you can ever be there for each other no matter how much you want to be. Am I right about those things?
Kimberly Groves, PsyD 1:13:40
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, you can kind of go either way. That's why it's, maybe I get another t shirt saying, but people tend to really marry their, their mothers and their fathers. Because it's, it's what you're drawn towards, because it's what you're used to. And you know how to make that dynamic work. Hmm. So you can avoid that. I mean, you can. But sometimes you don't necessarily, it doesn't have to be a bad thing.
Scott Benner 1:14:04
I don't see it as it Yeah, I don't necessarily see it as a bad thing. I'm just wondering, like, you can't consciously you don't know what's happening. Like, even if you wake up when you're 14, you're like, oh, my god, she's a lot like my mom. Like it hits you out of nowhere. It's not like you were going to realize it when you were 19 and trying to talk her into kissing you. Like it wasn't going to come through then. You know what I mean? I know that's an old idea that the boys just try to beat something that girls want. But I'm old. So I realized that's not how it's supposed to go. It's just how I grew up. So we'll have to deal with it as I'm talking. You don't mean like now everybody respects each other? It's weird. Yeah. Just know. And it's nice, actually, like I see. To be honest. Like, I see how my daughter is not boy crazy. And I'm like, that's nice. Like she's not running around trying to make a personality for herself. That's based on how other people feel. about her. And yeah, when I grew up, it was just like you were just dying for a girl to like you. And my son doesn't have that vibe either. Like, he also is not looking for another person to complete them. And it's nice, because it makes it feel like you have more time to really meet people, and find somebody who fits well with you, who you actually, like, instead of the first person who looks up at you and goes, this one's acceptable. You know, like, it's, um, I wonder, do you see growth like that? through generations? Like, do you expect this story to continue to get better as we get older? Like, when you're a 70 year old, like seeing therapy patients? Will their problems be more refined than ours are? Because I'm assuming ours are more refined than our parents were?
Kimberly Groves, PsyD 1:15:51
Yeah, I mean, I think I think they'll just be different versions. But I think in that respect, it's, it's good now. And when, as you were talking, I start thinking about online dating and how, you know, then there's pros and cons to that. So I think the Pro is in part there is this pressure of the first person that clicks better make it work, because it's hard to meet people. There's this idea that, you know, it's easy enough for it to happen. And in theory, that's true. But then I do think then there's this idea of, there's this buffet of people, and if I see one flaw, I'm gonna kick him to the curb, because, you know, there's always hundreds of other people. Yeah,
Scott Benner 1:16:28
it's funny, I started thinking of it as basketball, like, you know, what basketball looked like in the 50s. And what it looks like today, like professional basketball, like I just thought, like, the game is the same, but the players get more athletic. And then that sort of changes the game a little bit. Like, the more in tune to people will change the dating game, and the relationship game. And it'll just continue to morph not necessarily better. I'm sure there are people who look back and just miss Larry Bird standing there. three pointers uncontested. But now there are like five Superman running around the court throwing a ball around. You know what I mean? Like, it's, um, yeah, either. Neither. It's just different. It's not bad or good. Oh, I'm so interested. I wish I could stay alive forever to see how this goes. But let's be honest. That potato chip, allegory from earlier, that was me, so I won't be here much longer. Right?
Nobody, nobody's perfect, right? You've never met a person that you're just like, wow, this worked out exactly right for them. Or they're No, no. No. So even the people who look like they have it all together just a mess in a way you can't say. I mean, I wouldn't say a mess. I know you're a professional. But I'm not. And so I get to say what have you heard the episodes with Erica yet where I tried to get her to generalize about people's mental health and she won't do it.
Kimberly Groves, PsyD 1:17:53
I heard the first one about I forget what it was about, but I heard the first one where she was on.
Scott Benner 1:17:58
Yeah, she stops me just like you do. You guys are very professional. I say something stupid. And you're like, That's not right, Scott. Don't say that. But I'm just trying to move the Congress. You understand him? I'm trying to keep Oh, yeah. Well, you and I are near each other. We have more of a geographical vibe. But yes. Also interesting why I like talking to Erica, he she and I are like incredibly different. She's very, she's very California. It's nice. Oh, okay. Anyway, all right. Do you hate me after this is over? This is really all I need to know. Where am I done? Okay.
Kimberly Groves, PsyD 1:18:30
No, no, no, this was this was a pleasure. I'm glad that you took the time to do this again. And that it worked out. You're silly. You're
Scott Benner 1:18:37
gonna come back on one day. You mean you're glad this was good? I like Yeah. Hey, I'm not going anywhere. Excellent. A huge thank you to one of today's sponsors. g Vogue glucagon. Find out more about chivo Kibo pen at G Vogue glucagon.com Ford slash juicebox you spell that GVOKEGL Uc ag o n.com. forward slash Juicebox. Podcast like to thank the Contour Next One blood glucose meter for sponsoring this episode. Thank you so much Contour. Next One. I feel like you are that person and that I know you. But I think that's just because of how I talk on the podcast but that's not the point Contour Next one.com forward slash juice box. Check them out. And one second, I'll remind you how to get old again.
Once again, Kim groves is a licensed psychologist. She works at the Center for emotional health Family Care Center in Cherry Hill, New Jersey, and Kim facilitates a free support group for individuals and their family members. This is all ages monthly support group focuses on the emotional adjustment to a new diagnosis, management of the disease finding a new normal and gentle General issues related to living with a chronic illness, it's facilitated by Kimberly groves at support group is free of charge and open to the community. If you're interested, please contact 856-220-9672 in New Jersey, get that phone number, you'll get more details and even be able to register, I have to thank you very much for listening to the show for sharing it with others and for something else. And I feel I'm not uncomfortable. But this is outside of my wheelhouse a little bit. I think maybe I'm from the wrong generation. But I need to thank a number of people who put together a buy me a coffee campaign for me for the podcast. Apparently, apparently, I mean, it's a thing where you just go to buy me a coffee.com forward slash juice box and you can send me a couple of dollars or have a membership and you know, rotates it's it's I can feel how uncomfortable I am saying this, you might be able to feel it as well. number of people came to me and said that they wanted to do more for the podcast and just listened to it. They wanted to add a little bit of money periodically. And they asked me for a way to do that. And this is the way that we came up with it was reasonable to share with other people is very humbling, that people would do this, you please do not need to feel any pressure about this, the podcast is ad supported. And it will exist for free as long as I as long as I draw breath, and I can keep it existing for free. But if this is something you wanted to do, I certainly didn't know I generally appreciate it. I genuinely appreciate it. And I generally appreciate I guess I generally and genuinely appreciate it if you do that, but we threw it up. And I was overwhelmed by the number of people who did that. So as crazy as this sounds, because it's coming from me. It's been explained to me that people want to do this, and that they need an avenue for it. And even though it kind of makes me uncomfortable, I understand that. And I'm very happy that the podcast is such a positive light for people so much so that it draws them to want to do more. So if you do this, I will take the money and let me be honest, I guess I'll pay my bills with it. I'll try to better the podcast with it. I will try to make a make sure that the podcast remains free for as long as possible. But don't get me wrong. I'm not saying you do this or the podcast won't be free anymore. I do not I do not ever want to put the podcast behind a paywall. I don't think there should be even a $1 barrier between you and the show. Anyway, I guess the internet's a different place than it used to be and generations think of stuff like this differently. But I just went on very long to say if you'd like to send me a couple of bucks, buy me a coffee.com forward slash juicebox. I really appreciate it. Thank you. So it is really humbling to think that anyone would be interested in that is is a little overwhelming. Anyway, I've babbled long enough. I hope you enjoyed Kim, I very much did I'd like to have her back again. That's it. You don't take some questions for from you guys and have her back on. I just thought she had a great way about her. I will talk to you soon. Thanks so much for listening. Juicebox Podcast is a it's a passion for me. I'm glad you like it. I'll talk to you soon.
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#501 Alone in a Room Full of People
Danae talks about the first decade of her type 1 diabetes.
You can always listen to the Juicebox Podcast here but the cool kids use: Apple Podcasts/iOS - Spotify - Amazon Music - Google Play/Android - iHeart Radio - Radio Public, Amazon Alexa or wherever they get audio.
+ Click for EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
DISCLAIMER: This text is the output of AI based transcribing from an audio recording. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors and should not be treated as an authoritative record. Nothing that you read here constitutes advice medical or otherwise. Always consult with a healthcare professional before making changes to a healthcare plan.
Scott Benner 0:00
Hello friends, and welcome to Episode 501 of the Juicebox Podcast.
Hey everyone, welcome back. Today we're going to be speaking with Denae. Denae is a young adult living with Type One Diabetes. She's had it for a decade, and she's here to tell us her story. Please remember, while you're listening that nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise, always consult a physician before making any changes to your health care plan. We're becoming bold with insulin. That was such an unfair introduction to this episode because it goes in a wonderful direction and fills a lot of little gaps in your heart. But I can't give it all away here during the music, right? You have to listen to the episode, which I'm going to call. See, I want to call it alone in a room full of people. alone in a full room, I kind of make it a little alone in a room full of people. Alright, that's what I'm going to call it. It's not catchy, but it fits.
This episode of The Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by the Dexcom g six continuous glucose monitor. I want you to go to dexcom.com Ford slash juice box to learn more about the Dexcom CGM getting that information that data that stuff that you can see in real time. It's a game changer. The podcast is also sponsored by the Omni pod, you can get a free no obligation 30 day trial. If you're eligible of the Omni pod dash at Omni pod.com forward slash juice box. You could just use a pump for free for a month if you're eligible. That is at least worth checking out. Omnipod comm forward slash juice box dexcom.com forward slash juice box here's the name.
Denae 2:21
I am Denae. I'm from Boston mass. I'm 24. And I was diagnosed when I was 1410 years. Yeah, it'll be 10 years in May so definitely
Scott Benner 2:37
feel like a big thing or not. Particularly do not count it like that.
Denae 2:41
Um, yeah, I don't know. 10 years is a lot. I haven't really made like a big thing of the diversity I guess. Maybe that's the last few years I have just because it's been more of like a better thing. But I think 10 years will be a big thing for sure.
Scott Benner 3:02
Alright, today what how are you touching?
Denae 3:05
It was my What is it? I air pod case? I'm not touching it anymore. I'm sorry, I have a glass table. That's probably why it makes so much noise. And I don't
Scott Benner 3:18
want you to be sorry. I think it's really common in the first 15 or 20 minutes of the episode. People are jittery. And a lot of people touch things, too. It's it's really interesting, but yours is really loud for some reason. So squeeze your knee or something like that. Getting on my hands now. Did I use sitting on your hands for real? I hear Oh, yeah. Excellent. You know, it's funny the, the way the show starts traditionally where people are like, Hi, my name is Denae and blah, blah, blah. You know, that actually came from the first time I couldn't. Alright, I'm going to admit something now. So it came from the first time I started recording with someone and couldn't remember their name. Oh, really. So that's an artful way to get around not knowing someone's name. I said, Hey, just introduce yourself real quick. I like it. And then it became such a nice way to start the show where someone just comes on says, Hey, I'm Steve. And you know, but like that. I said, I really liked that. But it absolutely came from my own embarrassment and me trying to cover up for myself. So I like it. I like it. And thank thank God, I did that because now six years later, your name? I probably would have gotten wrong if I tried to pronounce it. I don't know why it's so pretty common. You're not you wouldn't be the first one. Now it's a tough one. It's so obvious now that you said it. But looking at it. Like all morning I was like oh my god, I think this is a woman.
Denae 4:48
I've gotten so many different variations. So it wouldn't have been it wouldn't have been the first time. So what made you reach out? Um, so I started out actually listening to your podcasts in January of this year, I have just started a job at Mass General. And I was taking the train in so I kind of wanted to find something to listen to on the train. And I just happen to stumble upon the Juicebox Podcast. And I was like, wow, this is like, the best podcast I've found. And it literally like changed my life, I did not have a good a one. See, I was just not really taking care of myself that well. And then, six months later, my agency went from 13 to seven. And it just completely changed my life. And I just will not listen to anything else ever. So I just wanted to come on and just say thank you for everything that you do. And honestly, like, just come on, and say that and really, it's just like, amazing how just listening to something can just impact somebody's life so much. And somehow, if like, my story could change someone's life as yours did, and so many other people's stories did that would like even just one person like that would be incredible.
Scott Benner 6:25
I agree. It is a very big deal to do something that impacts someone else's health. It feels amazing. So you're going to do that you're going to tell your story, and somebody else is going to find something interesting about it. But let's first come to I just came to a realization so let's talk about this first. I'm always joking about people naming a baby after me as tribute. But why don't I start asking to be named in the in the life insurance? Really this is this is what I should be doing. I just I can't believe I've been wasting this effort on get a getting a baby named Scott. I don't even like my own name. Alright, from now on, if people feel like I'm saved them. I would like to be included in their life insurance policy, or 401k. payouts are anything at all. Really? That's, that's now what I'm going to ask for. You're too young. You'll outlive me by a lot. So maybe you could just give me a baby name Scott one day tonight. Yeah. No, I'm incredibly uncomfortable. And happy at the same time. It's a very, it's a very weird blend of feelings. To have someone say to you, I found your podcast. I thought it was great. change my life. It's hard to know how to respond to that. Yeah, I bet. Yeah. Really? Yes. So I make really bad jokes instead. Although that's a great coping mechanism. Honestly. I got DNA. I grew up a fat kid. I had nothing else. What was I gonna do? You know, I had to be funny. They would have beat my ass if I wasn't funny. I grew up in a I was I grew up in the 70s and the early 80s. You needed to be funny if you weren't athletic, or willing to get high or was gonna go down tonight. You know what I mean? Like you. You're gonna be though, you're not like you watch movies. Now you're like, oh, stuffing people in lockers? What a trade idea that doesn't would happen. It really happened. I wasn't looking for it to be me. But But seriously, congratulations. Tell me again, where your agency was and where it went to in a year, less than a year
Denae 8:22
is six months. Yeah, I was at 13. And it went to seven, but not
Scott Benner 8:27
- Like just diagnosed like you had diabetes for nine years. And it was 13.
Denae 8:32
Yeah. It's been from it had been anywhere from like nine to 13. And just that this past couple of years, like before the pandemic and everything. My family had gone through a lot of things. And so it was just really hard to keep everything under control. And so I just wasn't really the best at doing the best, you know, and it just ended up being higher than I wanted it to be. And then one day, I kind of just found the podcast and I can't even like freaked myself out into taking care of myself where I was like, if I don't do this, I'm literally going to go blind. And I kind of just like, gave myself the fear factor and was like, Okay, I need to do something about this. And then once I just kept listening, I was like, all these people are doing so well. Like if they can do it, I definitely can do it. Like if anyone can do it. So can I so then I was like, You know what, I have all these tools and all these resources and like I also use the Omni pod and the Dexcom. So I have access to all these things and like it's easy, just do it. So then I just did it.
Scott Benner 9:57
So you're making a lot of points that I'm interested in. First of all, I got to get this out of the way before we start. You're not from Boston, obviously. Are you from the south? I'm not. No, I'm from Boston. You're from Boston with that accent that you have right there. I have an accent. Well, no, you have the lack of an accent. Not that like it would be from a movie where you know, it's on the yard and stuff like that. But I'm just saying like, you really, I thought you were from more like Virginia and had moved up.
Denae 10:27
Oh, so my mom was born and raised in France. And when so I spoke French growing up. So I don't actually have like a Boston accent.
Scott Benner 10:38
You certainly don't. Okay. All right. So that's just to get that out of the way so that I don't spend the entire interview thinking like where's she from? So okay, so you Saudis taught you how to speak English? properly? Do you still speak French at all? Sorry, do you still speak any French? I do? Yes. We're gonna do stuff with that. Okay. Okay. So you, you proved out. And I think a lot of people listening have but a theory that I've had for a long time. So if you've been listening, you know that I wrote a blog for like a decade in the in the diabetes space before I started doing this, and honestly, is you and I are recording this in a couple of weeks. The seventh? I think, yeah, the seventh season of the podcast is going to start in a couple of weeks. And I'm not like, I don't do what those other some of those other podcasts like, you know, they've been around for three years now. Like we're on episode or on season 12. And I'm like, what, you know, like they put out five episodes and call it a season or whatever. When I tell you that this podcast is starting its seventh season, it's starting its seventh year of being at least a weekly show, as well, please. It's not that incredible. Just I sit and talk to people. And then I put it's not that hard. But But I appreciate it. But what my point is, is that the overwhelming theory online, that was during blogging, time I was blogging heavily. And even when I started the podcast was you don't show other people with diabetes, people who are doing well, because that makes them feel bad. Yeah, and I've never agreed with that. I've always thought that aspirational was the way to go, that you look at someone and just think they're not doing better than me. They just they know something. I don't know. Let me find out what that is. And that is what happened to you. Hmm.
Denae 12:27
Yeah, cuz diabetes is a learning curve. Like there's always something else to learn. There's, there's doing it, and then there's knowing something else that somebody else doesn't know exactly. Like, that's what you just said.
Scott Benner 12:39
But you can't do something you don't understand, like I said the other day, and I saw somebody echo it online, that you can't fail at something you have no knowledge of. Exactly. Yeah. And, and so we want to not give. So the prevailing idea was, don't teach them anything. And they'll figure it out. But what they were seeing back was that most people don't figure it out. And I always thought, why don't we just, I mean, listen, first of all, I was lucky at the time to really look at it. And to figure it out, I was a stay at home parent, right? So I could take a long look a hard look, sometimes a micro sometimes a macro and figure things out and come up with ideas. And you know, only learn to talk about them because of the blog. But most people don't even have that time they're off at work, or they're at school. They're just like staying alive. It's like it's a constant. Just tell me about that. Tell me about this first nine years ago, what was your life like?
Denae 13:44
When I first got diagnosed, I was 14. So I had just started high school. Um, and it's funny, I remember other people telling me what it was like for me, but I don't really remember it for myself, which is weird. Because I didn't know I was really feeling bad until I started feeling better. And so I had all the typical signs of it, but not really many people in my family kind of knew what it was they just knew something was wrong. So I had like the extreme thirst, extreme hunger, weight loss, hair loss, everything. And then by the time I was diagnosed, I was 82 pounds. And the doctors were like, We don't even know how you're alive right now. And that I remember that like clear as day like that was probably the one of the most memorable things. And the reason I went into the hospital actually was because I was getting headaches, or the doctor's office Actually, I went to the doctors because I was getting headaches and they were like, oh, we're just gonna like run some tests and stuff. So then we had left and they called They were like, you need to go to the emergency room right now. And we were like, oh, why? And they're like, you have diabetes. It was funny because I never really had like, crazy reactions to things until I kind of understood them. So my first reaction to was, Oh, well, at least it's not cancer. And that was my first reaction to hearing that I had diabetes. So I never really like, was like, Oh, it's not. Like, I didn't understand how bad I was feeling until I felt better. So I was when I was in the hospital,
I started really grasping it, and I was like, Oh, crap, this is really what it is. And they give you like, the diabetes 101 crash course in four days. And you're like, Okay, so here's your new life, have fun, bye. And then they just give you your whole new set of rules for the rest of your life in a matter of hours. And then when you get home, you're like, Okay, so now this is what it is. And that's really what I kind of started setting in, that everything was going to be different. And then
Scott Benner 16:16
I find that to be dangerous. And it's understandable what happens. They obviously they can't tell you the whole world in a couple of days. Yeah, but that, but when you're in that situation, at least, this is how I felt. everything that was said to me felt like a set in stone rule. And this Wow, I agree. Right? Right. Like this is how everything has to be all the time, there was never any body who would pull me aside to Hey, look, this is gonna morph, it's gonna change, you're gonna need to be flexible. Like, you know, I know, we said here, one to this many carbs. But, you know, over time, you'll see that change. All of this is momentary. And if they would have just let me know that I know, like, No, I'm not blaming anyone, I'm saying that if if I would have had that information, I wouldn't have spent so many years trying to make this elusive disease fit a very specific narrative. And that's where the maddening part comes to me. Is is the trying to make it fit exactly the thing that was said to you on day one, when you were for, write it, because I bet you when you were 16, you were a completely different person than you were when you were 14.
Denae 17:27
Yeah, they made it almost like a cookie cutter thing. And I was like, This is not the same as it was, like, I remember specific, like, I would make my lunches for school. And I was like, I need to have 15 pita chips. And this many of this. And that many of that. And I can only have eight ounces of juice and bla bla bla. And I was like, this is probably like, this isn't normal. Like, it was the weirdest thing ever. And then going to school like my friends before, like, when you go to lunch, like, you know, people would share lunch and everything, like people be like, Oh, can I have a chip? And I'm like, No, you can't have one or I'll die. Like, it's just like, so cut in clean and in set in stone, that you have to have everything perfect. And that's just not how you live your life. Because as everyone who has diabetes knows diabetes is far from perfect,
Scott Benner 18:22
isn't it? kind of almost funny to that? You feel like I'm doing everything exactly the way I was taught? Put your a one C was over nine. Yeah. Right. But you probably never put those two things together because you were doing what you were taught.
Denae 18:35
Exactly, yeah. And there's always like, you're trying so hard, and the numbers still are just not adding up. And that led to like a lot of different things down the road for me too, which also led to hire a one season everything. So it just was like a constant struggle and like a battle. So it was just hard all the time.
Scott Benner 19:02
So you guys were basically which one was excuse me, was one of your parents helping you with management or was it just for you to do
Denae 19:11
um, so I have always been a very extremely independent child. And I my parents insisted on helping but I insisted on doing it. A lot of my own, like a lot of my own. My mom was the one that helped more, or I put a lot of the while she was kind of more involved, I guess. She would come to the appointments with me and we would kind of relay the information to my dad. And because he's a teacher, so he was at school a lot and everything. But my mom worked from home most of the time. And
Scott Benner 20:03
well did I was when you say your mom was at the appointments, but when you got home and it was time to have an apple or 15 pita chips or something like that, was she helping you with that? Or were you just on your own?
Denae 20:15
Um, so it's kind of like the appointment high, I guess you go to the appointment and then like the surrounding days of the appointment, my mom would be like, Alright, this is what you have to do this we have to do because she was there and she was in it and bla bla bla,
Scott Benner 20:30
it's, it's like the week after y'all decide to go on a diet together with a bunch of people. Like when you get together with family, you're like, we could go on to do a weight loss challenge, we'll all try to lose 10 pounds. And then by Tuesday, you're like, I'm gonna lose 10 pounds. And then by Saturday, like, I'm just gonna go to a bar.
Denae 20:45
Yeah, that's exactly it. Yeah. Cuz at the end of the day, they don't actually have diabetes. And I do. So I'm like, Okay, fine. Like, I still have to do this, though. Like, you can. Like, you can say that you want to do it, but you don't actually have to do it. Like I actually have to do this. Yeah. So and like, obviously, there's no like bullying or anything of it. But they're much older, like, they have a lot more responsibility and like different responsibility. And like, I actually have it. So it just like is what it is. But I've always been an independent person too. So I never placed any responsibility on them for it either. So I was just like, I can do it. Like, it's me, I can do it. And as a kid, you're like, I'm invincible. I can do it. And I can do anything I want at the same time. So it probably was more than like, I probably bit off more than I could chew.
Scott Benner 21:45
Were you a bit of a pain in the ass? Like, did you like were they trying to help? And you kept them at arm's length?
Denae 21:50
Oh, absolutely. I was so stubborn. Was Yes, I still am Yes. Yeah, I always wanted to do it by myself. And I was like, I could do it. And I can do it by myself. Oh, I was definitely a pain in the ass.
Scott Benner 22:06
I didn't have to take a supplement. Like once a week. It's just a vitamin. And it took me four days to get her to take it. It's just, I must have said, Hey, take that vitamin real quick. Like 5000 times I put it in front of her or anything. You just take that for I don't like to take pills. I'm like, yeah, no one does. Can you just take it, you know, on and on. And at one point. Last night, she comes up, I was editing the show and putting a shop last night. She comes upstairs and she just got done writing something for her AP Lang class. And she's like, Can you read the conclusion with me and see what you think? And I was like, Sure. So we started reading. And as I was reading, I said, Hey, just take that vitamin. And she started laughing. She's like I did. I was like, Are you sure? And she's laughing. I did. I did, I promise. And at this point, she had actually taken it. But had told me she was going to not take it for so many days in a row. that by the time she actually took it. She's cracking up laughing and then she was worried. I didn't believe her because she was laughing. And I understand what you're saying about. Yeah, well, about having somebody tell you to do something that you just don't want to do it. No, no, it's it's completely common response. But the but the issue ends up being Hey, you know what, you freaked me out. But because I just sat here and did the math on the calendar. Not that it was tough math, but you were diagnosed in 2012. Is that right? 2011? That, like you understand that 2011? Like I thought there'd be flying cars in 2011. Like, that's how old I am. Right? Like and you're you were 14 then even just now like, like putting together my head that you're 24 like, flips me out like you like you weren't diagnosed? What do I mean, you're an adult with type one who wasn't diagnosed in the dark ages of type one. And yet you still had an A one c over nine.
Unknown Speaker 24:00
Mm hmm. I want you to
Denae 24:03
know, as much as the technology has changed, it's still feels like so much as like, even just nine years ago, it still feels like there was so much that has changed.
Scott Benner 24:15
But what it's making me think is that everyone listening needs to understand that the technology or the tools or whatever you want to call it where you know how you always hear people say like, this is the best time to be diagnosed with type one. I say that because it's true, right? But it's not true if someone doesn't teach you how to do it.
Unknown Speaker 24:36
Exactly right.
Scott Benner 24:37
And and so because you should not you obviously can do it because you're doing it. Right. Right. And so you lack something for nine years that was there and attainable. And that's sad to me. I also am really excited for you that you found the other side of it. But in a larger way, it makes me worried for everyone else who, you know, you're going to see all these algorithms just existing in the world with pumps and algorithms and glucose monitors. And I, you know, Arden uses one, and I know how well it works. But you just made me realize that it doesn't matter, because most people aren't going to do it. Yeah, if we don't drag them forward into it, and teach them how to do it, so that they can do it on their own. People aren't just gonna pick it up on their own. Yeah. Okay. Well, tell me a little bit about those, those first years, especially as you got into your late teens and early 20s, you are aware that you're a one sees way higher than you want it to be? I assume you're trying? Or were you just not trying at all? What was the vibe?
Denae 25:47
Yeah, so I went through a lot of difficult times growing up in diabetes, because a lot of me didn't really want to have diabetes, I really got it at a time where you don't really know who you are yet. So you're kind of figuring out all of that, and getting it when people are just kind of figuring out who you are. And then all of a sudden, realizing have this thing that makes you different, you're just like, I don't want this because no one else has it. And I think that kind of just really set me apart. And so I just avoided it for a really long time. And I did the bare minimum. And so that definitely contributed to a high and one C for a long time. And the beginning parts of all of the rules and regulations around like no one what to eat, when to eat, how much to eat, and like carb counting in the like sliding factors and all of that, or like sliding scales, and all of that contributed to me developing an eating disorder as well. So I had, um, I'm sure you've heard of it before, but dyeable aimia. And that happened for a really long time. And my senior year of high school, actually, I ended up going into treatment for it. Not for very long. And in a terrible place, which does did not know anything about diabetes, which is also one of the things that I want to like advocate for is just know, like going to build awareness around places for in treatments and inpatient treatment centers to build up awareness for diabetes around like places like that, because my experience with that was just so awful, that they just have no education around that. And like, I was told that there was a place that place was for people like myself who have died, who had died, Alenia and then just going in there and realizing that they had absolutely no idea what they were doing, like they had the most bare minimum knowledge of it was like, I was so shocked. And it was just like, crazy to me that they just didn't know what they were doing.
Scott Benner 28:48
Well, when you said that, to make sure not to do it in a bad place. I thought you were about like Sean Boston.
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Where's she going with this? But But I hear I hear what you're saying you need a reputable place that is well versed has a plan you should check on what that plan is before you go in. But again, tough because you don't know what they're supposed to be doing. So how do you check them on whether or not they know they're and it's gonna be references? It's gonna be? Yeah, right. Just this
Denae 33:25
specific center like Yeah, but um, there. It was just I wasn't even in there for a very long, but it was recommended by the hospital that I had been diagnosed that and so I was like, What is the affiliation between these? And how is their connection with them? Like, how much do they keep up with it? Do they supply them with their own doctors? Do they educate them do that? How often is their training like? I was like, all of the stuff that I was thinking about the whole time. And it was just weird to see it from my side as a diabetic and then seeing it also in the perspective of someone who had an eating disorder. So I have both sides. Yeah. And then just kind of putting the two and two together where they only have half of the treatment. Whereas somebody who has more than one thing going on, but I'm just only one side of that. Like what if somebody else had something completely different? And they only do half for treatment?
Scott Benner 34:40
Yeah. I mean, it's listen to healthcare as a business and know that not every business is run. Well, you know what I mean? And it's interesting how how we think about, like, if you have a storefront sign, well then you say you make sandwiches, then they're going to be good sandwiches inside here. Then you go buy one and you're like us terrible. You know, it turns out everybody can't make a great sandwich. But it doesn't stop them for a moment as owning a sandwich shop. Yeah, so you have to do some diligence. But it's also interesting that you're in a bad way to begin with. And once you've made the decision to go for treatment, I would imagine, it's hard to put into your mind, well, now I need to, you know, check on this place and make sure they're gonna do what they say and that they have everything I need. And it's just sounds like a fraught time in your life. And you can understand not being able to do that.
Denae 35:34
That like 1718 years old, that's not like, right, all the questions that you're asking either, too. So those are the questions that came down from other people as well that I had the years after think about,
Scott Benner 35:49
right, right. Yeah. Yeah, I have to ask you, you didn't mention diabelli Mia, in your email, and I heard you, you've struggled to it through this first half an hour, like you wanted to tell me but you you had trouble getting it out a couple of different times. So I want to check, are you okay, that means you said something, I think you weren't sure you were gonna say today. Is that right?
Denae 36:07
Oh, I didn't mention at all in the email at first. But I had while since I had time, from when we scheduled the meeting, to think about all the things that I wanted to say. But when I was listening to some of the podcasts, from the beginning, there was a woman who said that she had a lot of struggles. I've It was one of the earlier podcast, I wanted to go back and look at it. I think it was in like in the early two hundreds, I think. But she said that she has struggled with it a lot. And she had suffered from a lot of complications. And that was actually one of the reasons why I was just like, Okay, time to get into action and time to get myself together. And I just think that sharing the struggles will help people who might be too afraid to come out and say things to really, like, realize that they're not alone, because a lot of the people who share their stories in the podcast, were brave enough to come out and say their story. And like, I was one of those people for a really long time to not come out and say anything. And then I saw that there are people out there who are not doing well, like I wasn't doing well. And I'm not alone and other people out there not alone in it does get better. It's
Scott Benner 37:38
your turn to be brave. That's all, you know. Yeah. Oh, that's, it's really nice that you're sharing it. So tell me a little bit about what people should be looking for. So if I'm a parent of someone, or if I'm an adult living with type one, how does diabetes rear its head? Originally? How did it start?
Denae 37:56
Um, a lot of the signs are definitely, um, decrease in, like, renewing prescriptions for sure. And so like, if you notice that there's a lot of, like, if your child is saying like, Oh, yeah, I'm definitely doing what I was supposed to like, I'm doing all the insulin, like, I'm carb counting, I'm doing my assemble a lot. But you're noticing that you're not refilling prescriptions as often as you usually are. That's a huge design. I did that a lot. And another one is you are noticing that the agency is really high every time you go to the endocrinologist, but the meter is always saying a number that doesn't reflect anyone see. There's like definitely number manipulation, where they'll, um, they'll take insulin and then change the date and time on the meter. And then just check their blood sugar over and over again and change the date and time on the meter.
Scott Benner 39:07
That sounds like much work than a
Denae 39:09
lot of work. Trust me. I spent a lot of time doing that. And it was not a lot of fun.
Scott Benner 39:17
Can I ask you? Is it more work keeping your agency where it is now or more work pretending that you have a good day one say
Denae 39:24
Oh, it's so much more work pretending is so much more work. Because you have this constant fear where you're like, someone's gonna find out but like, I need to do like it's it's a constant battle all the time because you're like, it's all psychological. It's in your head and you're like, I have to do this because like, in order for me to be the way that I need to be like, it's, it's not you take me over like you think you're in control, but you're really not. And you're like, I'm trying to tell everybody that this is the way that it is, but it's really not like, and then it catches up to you. And it's just, it just all falls apart. And so honestly, you feel better, you look better, you act better. If you just are in control of your numbers the right way, then if you're controlling the numbers the wrong way,
Scott Benner 40:24
I don't know if you're aware of this or not. But a number of times while we've been talking, you've alluded to or flat out said that the way you are, you didn't know about someone else had to tell you. So when you were diagnosed, you didn't know how you felt someone? Do you don't remember how you felt someone told you how you felt? And even now, what I'm hearing is that is that you're, you're you were never really being yourself, you were being what you thought you were supposed to be or what someone told you were supposed to be. Did you lose a lot in that gap of time? Like, are you able to look back now? And like, I don't, I don't want to be a bummer. But what was there a lot of wasted life in there?
Denae 41:12
Oh, yeah, there's definitely a lot of time that was spent trying to kind of keep up something that wasn't really the way that it was supposed to be, you know, like,
Unknown Speaker 41:26
being
Denae 41:29
being what I thought I was supposed to be, well, not maybe not supposed to be, but like being the way that I thought I wanted to be, was a lot more than it should have been. And it took a lot more than it needed to.
Scott Benner 41:49
So a lot of effort to create appearances. And you're not even necessarily sure that's how you really want it to be to begin with. Yeah, I mean, it's, it's, it's, it feels convoluted, but it's, it's not really it's, to me, I've said here before, one of the things I hate, I hate a lot of things and you know, wasted time is one of them. I genuinely hate the idea of wasting time, I hate when there are a group of people together. Three people, let's say one person is lying. The other two people know they're lying. But don't say anything to them. And we stand in this circle, having this completely bogus conversation that not one person believes in, but we're doing it for appearances, or we're doing it to set something up or I I'm frustrated by that kind of thinking to begin with, like I'm almost, I'm almost angry at the person who you used to be for like, like doing that with the meter. And yet I know it happens to so many people it is such a common story of fixing the meat or making it look right just so you can go to the doctor just to keep the doctor from yelling at you is that
Denae 43:06
I knew that it was wrong to like I knew that. What I what I was doing was Shouldn't I shouldn't have been doing but there was just like some sort of fear or something surrounded by it, like I had this constant need to be perfect all the time. And the sight of the numbers just being high, was like I just can't even look at it. And like I didn't want to do it. So then every time I saw a high number, I just didn't want to do it and I didn't want to see it. So then I would just avoid it. And I would avoid checking my blood sugar until maybe like a week before. And then I would go back and just read, fabricate all those numbers. And then I would go in, they would check my agency and they'd be like, well, we don't understand what's wrong. And then they'd be like, maybe it's the meter. We'll give you a new one. And I was like, yeah, maybe that's it. And like I just was like, I couldn't really come to terms with myself. And knowing the fact that I just needed to do it and like I knew that I needed to but I just couldn't get myself to
Scott Benner 44:25
know if you so first of all, please understand and I'm sure you do because you were having a nice conversation here and you you're really cool, but I don't I didn't mean like Angry you like, like at you. I meant I'm angry to think that you wasted time. Oh, yeah. Right. And then other people are doing the same thing and not even just with I mean yours is obviously you know it's its own little criminal enterprise with changing the numbers and the dates on things and testing when you know you're low and changing dates, but even what the doctor's office did, like come on, like how many times does the doctor's office need to Seeing a one c that's 11 and a meter that says you're a one see a six, and they know two. So now they know, you know, they're handing you a new meter like, oh, maybe it's this and you're like, yeah, maybe you're literally in the scenario that I painted where everyone's just foolish. And we're acting like it's okay. It's a strange thing, to me really frustrating. Away from diabetes even because I, I so much preferred directness, and, and competency. Because, look, I mean, look what happened to you, you just randomly found a podcast, and you're a onesies. What now? And I think the last time I checked, it was 7.1. Jesus, that's so great. Good for you. That's amazing. And and what's the difference between this whole nine years and a 7.1?
Denae 45:56
The podcast on honestly, just like growing up and realizing that if I want to be the best version of myself, it's just like, you know, what you need to do you have the things that you need in order to do them. So why not just do it? It's easier to do it than to not, it's easier to take the steps than to avoid it. And you'll feel better you know, what it's like to feel better. You've been there before. So just but even
Scott Benner 46:29
then, you couldn't accomplish it though, right? Like, where could you have and you just didn't,
Denae 46:34
I could have and I had done it before I had gotten my agency down before. I had gotten it to a nine before. And that was the best I've ever felt in a really long time. I think it was like, my summer going into sophomore year of college. I had started a new like workout program. And I was going to like this boot camp type workout thing. And I started like a meal plan. And it had changed my numbers a lot. And it was working out really well. And my agency went down just from like changing my diet and exercise routine. And, um, after that, I was like, Oh, I can actually do this. So then I just started doing it. And then I go back to college and everything kind of just like, went a little bit haywire. And I kind of fell back into the the die Dibley mum mentality where, like, the insulin restriction actually helped me lose weight more. And it kind of just the psychological aspect of that kind of crept back in and the numbers just went back up. And it didn't really stick. So. So it's just kind of started back up again.
Scott Benner 48:13
So then for you the podcast was more about the the psychological side of diabetes, not so much about the nuts and bolts. Yeah, how to use insulin side of it.
Denae 48:23
Yeah, yeah. The, the technical aspect of diabetes has always come very straightforward to me, like I've always understood the, you take the insulin, and then you eat the food. And it works like that. Like it's straightforward. mathematics, science, it works like that. It ebbs and flows, like it's straightforward like that. But the mentality, like the psychological aspect behind it has always been the struggle for me. And I know that with a lot of people to like, especially just from listening to a lot of the podcast, and that's always been the hard part.
Scott Benner 49:11
Yeah, you. I hope you understand that. That's not how I think of it even like, I know, the podcast does that for you and for people in your situation. But it's not why I started it. It I really did started, like, in my mind that this podcast is about using insulin, but to you it's not really about that at all. And that's really cool. And fascinating to me that that it and so the aspect of having average people in to talk about their diabetes. That's been the real value for you. Yeah, yeah. Okay. All right. I understand. You're helping me. Thank you. You're helping me understand what it does because I'm come from such a I don't have diabetes, obviously. So my my perspective is more I don't even know how to say it. It's, it's less encumbered by the the psychology of having type one, honestly, you know, and, and, and the everything else that comes with having diabetes, but I, I can understand that enough to know what the show needs to be. And having just people on who don't have, you know, you know, blogs and you know, I've been writing about diabetes for 15 years, like, I find it boring to talk to those people, because they have, they have, they've got talking points, and they just, they just, they hit them, they know how to go through them. But if you had me on a podcast, and the podcast is about, you know, making a podcast, if I started telling my story, I would get very cookie cutter too, because I've told it 1000 times, I've had to tell it to every advertiser that you know, is interested in being on the show, like I had to have a conversation last night for an hour with a potential advertiser that likely won't turn into anything. But I still had to do the thing and explain the story and do all that. And so I don't like to have people on who know their story so well, that there's no chance that they'll say something spontaneous and honest, like you did today.
Denae 51:17
Yeah, like it's almost scripted. Right?
Scott Benner 51:19
He comes off very, very, it's nothing against those people. I know a lot of them and they're lovely. And there are times where I think that those people must be so pissed at me. You know, like, I've never invited them on the show, because some of them I really like, but they just, I don't know, they're, they're in a lane and they do a thing. And I want you to like, I'm telling you, you said I've had struggles, you said it three times. Before you basically cop the having Daya Believe me at one point. Yeah. And And that, to me, is so valuable for people listening, because other people who have diabetes emia, who don't tell anybody can understand how you feel. And then they can hear that it worked out well for you. And that you overcame this hurdle. That probably seemed insurmountable. I would imagine. You know, that whole time? Did you really ever think you were going to get over this?
Denae 52:12
I never thought I would, honestly. And I know like, there, it's always good to have a support system for sure. And I did have people that I think we're good support. But in if I'm being honest, I really think that I got through it by myself, like a lot of it I did on my own. And that's not something a lot of people like to admit like, I definitely don't like that. I did that on my own. And it was definitely really hard, like diabetes is hard. Diabetes is hard. And like going through alone is hard. And while I definitely didn't go through it like 100% alone, but you felt when you felt alone? Yeah, definitely. And like, especially like, I don't know, anybody else who has diabetes, like I'm the only person in my family who has it. I don't, I don't have any friends who have it. I've heard of people who, like, I have friends who have friends who have it, but I don't know anybody personally, who has it. And that definitely was like a factor of like feeling alone in it as well. And so, when I found the podcast, I was like, I'm not alone. Like there are people out there who are going through the same thing as I am. And it helped me like kind of flip the switch and be like, I can, like if all these people can do it, like so can I and it just really like, kind of made helped me make that 180 and realize that, like if there's, if there's a way out, then I have to take the steps to do it. Even if I am going to do it by myself like I can, like I can do it. And if there are people out there who feel like they're alone, like, trust me, you're not like, I felt like I was like you are definitely not alone. And it may feel like that in a world of so many people doing so many different things like going through so many different things. But there are people out there going through something just as similar as you are and trust me like, if you can, if you feel like any part of you wants to get through it just cling on to that and you will get through it. Like I did it in a matter of months, which I did not think would ever happen. But I'm here now and I'm doing great. So
Scott Benner 54:54
that's probably you know, matter of months you didn't know it took you 10 years. And yeah, you got one more piece and that kind of took you over the finish line is is, you know, really the way I would think of it, I wouldn't think of it as you found some magic. It's just maybe the podcast was just the last piece that you needed. There are plenty of people who are you have your situation but are in a different portion of their journey, who find the podcast and doesn't come together for them as quickly. And I think that's important to say, too, because sometimes I hear people say, Why don't get it, there was a guy on the podcast that he found the podcast and three months later is a once he was six, and I listened for three months. And that didn't happen to me. And, Michael, it's not gonna happen the same for everybody. Everybody's at the different in a different part of their journey. And you know, this piece is important, I think. But if you're not ready to receive it, it's tough to just put it into practice and expect it to work. I wondered, while you were talking. Is it possible that I can that a person can be supported, meaning they have family around them who you know, would do anything for you? So you're not really alone? In that sense, yet? You still feel alone?
Denae 56:10
Oh, absolutely. Yeah, my, I definitely have my family. My I have a lot of family who's in the medical field too. So they get an understanding of it. And I guess they have like the silent support, I guess, where they're there for me. And they'll support me. But I guess I just didn't really like Well, I guess I wasn't like super aware of it. Or maybe I just didn't really like Think of it like that.
Scott Benner 56:43
Let me ask you a question and see if this strikes a chord with you. And if it doesn't, that's fine. But I use this as an example all the time. So when I started the podcast, I was very clear that I was going to share how we reach the success that my daughter had. And a person, a specific person in the community admonished me about it. They listened to the podcast, reached out without asking if I was interested, in their opinion, to tell me that I was doing the wrong thing. And that I shouldn't be doing what I was doing. I shouldn't be sharing how I manage my daughter. And they told me it was wrong. And I just I was admonished by this person. And it sticks with me to this day because of how wrong they were. But of how how right they thought they were in the moment. So sure that no one should share how they manage their diabetes, because everyone's different. And your diabetes may vary. And I was back there going like no, no, there are simple truths about diabetes that apply to everyone. And if they just understood this piece of it, and this piece of it, etc, etc, then it would they could make sense of it and decide what parts of what works for my daughter would work for them. And but it was it wasn't lazy, I don't think but it was just such a self righteousness that you're doing, you know, being told you're doing the wrong thing. And now I look back. And I think what if I would have listened to that person? Like what if I would have let them scare me away from doing this, like honestly, that that person seven or eight years ago now was attempting to do something that Denae would have left your a one c over 10 for the rest of your life. And and I don't think we we just don't think enough about our actions sometimes or how sure we can be about something. And it may be someone else might have a different idea. And I just heard you saying that you're you just said something. The way I should say this is that you just said something that made me realize that all the people I've ever spoken to who are adults with diabetes, I'm always trying to get them to say what happened so that other people will know. And it's always my thought that they weren't supported by their parents. And I think that management wise, a lot of them weren't. But they can never say it like you have you. They can never say it out loud, because they don't want to denigrate their parents. That's one thing, like a lot of people just don't want to throw somebody under the bus. But also you felt supported by your parents, just not in a way that was going to lead you to outcomes that were better for your health. So yeah, it just occurred to me that you're not protecting them. You honestly feel good about their support. It just wasn't in its entirety. Everything you needed. Is that all fair? Yeah, I think that's pretty fair. Yeah. Okay. You really just, you said something in a way recent, just like I said a couple minutes ago that made me rethink a lot of answers that I've heard on the podcast. It just, it just now is making sense to me. It's not that those people weren't helping them. They weren't doing the things that they that the person type one specifically needed to have better outcomes. So they were being supported, but not in the way that often the podcast ends up supporting them.
Denae 1:00:10
Yeah, like there was, there was support, but maybe not in the way that could have best benefited me.
Scott Benner 1:00:19
So this is what people mean when they say you can be in a room full of people and feel alone.
Unknown Speaker 1:00:24
Yes. Okay. There's like, it's like, You're, you're being helpful, but you're not helping.
Scott Benner 1:00:32
Yes. And, and, and back to my original rambling point, is that I, I'll say to people all the time, like, I think it's important to share what works for us on the podcast, because it's nice to hear you're not alone at three o'clock in the morning when your blood sugar's low. But wouldn't it be nicer to understand how to get your basil set up so that you actually aren't low at three o'clock in the morning? So that so that you don't need that you're not alone? support? Like, it's not that that you're not alone? support isn't really valuable? But in my mind, it was Wouldn't it be better if you didn't need it? As often? And that's the point I tried to make to that person back then. And they just said, No, you're doing the wrong thing. And I think I've never really like had this feeling out loud. But to that person, oh, yeah, there we go. Right. So I knew I knew what I was talking about. But of course, the irony here, of course, today is that person thought they knew what they were talking about. And it's just perspective. Because what they really meant was, if they were to share what they knew, they thought it would be dangerous for other people to hear. And I felt pretty confident that I could deliver the information in a way that would make it digestible and actionable. Yeah, that's all. I actually think this might be one of my greater accomplishments of my life. Just learning how to talk about diabetes in a way that people can understand it. And I seriously like I, I, if I die tomorrow, just say that at my funeral, I'd be completely happy. Scott was a father and a husband. And he tried really hard to help people with type one diabetes, I think I would be that'd be an okay. eulogy for me.
Denae 1:02:19
I think that last sentence should be he did really well. And helping a lot of people in diabetes just cracked my grammar today. What just happened there? You tried, but no, you did. Oh,
Scott Benner 1:02:30
oh, okay. Hey, I don't need this pressure for you today. I never did well in school. And now you're like, you conjugated the wrong word. Well, thank you. Well, that's that. That's even debatable. It worked for you. And it works. For some people. It works for a lot of people, but it probably doesn't work for everybody. And there are a couple of views on the podcast and people hate me. You know what I mean? Like, I get that I'm not everybody's cup of tea and all, that's fine. But I just thought it was worth trying. Like, what was the harm in trying, everybody always acted like there was harm in trying. And I've known people in the past who have had major sway. Like, you know, we talked about, I don't like the word influencer. And I don't, I don't think of myself in that vein. But there are plenty of people now like Instagram is a good example. Like, I'm an influencer. Like, I don't argue like, aren't you just a guy that looks nice in jeans, and it has a good smile? who happens to have diabetes? Does that make you a diabetes influencer? You know, like, I don't I don't understand that. Specifically, I don't understand the idea of wanting to influence somebody either. Like I don't like for me, it's about I have a message. Here it is. I hope it works for you. Yeah, you're talking and some people like to listen, that's really, that's exactly how I think of it. It's just it's up to you to pick it up or put it down. And it doesn't it. I mean, it doesn't not matter to me, but I mean, I'm not hurt if you don't like the podcast, right? Yeah. It's the only thing I can do. I'm not trying to make a thing that I think you'll be preconceived, pre determined to like, I just, this is the thing I have, and you'll, you know, you'll do with it what you want. I'm excited that it helps you. Really, it's
Denae 1:04:16
been it's been a really great help. It's changed a lot for me, so cool.
Scott Benner 1:04:21
I it's really kind of you to share you said your Did you have any other troubles that beyond diabetes aimia that are worth sharing? Um, was that the big impediment?
Denae 1:04:32
Yeah, that's probably the biggest one, but just like, really? Well, I recently got the Omni pod. And well, there's never been really any struggle with the Omni pod. But like, that's probably the best thing that I've gotten. I got it actually the day after my 24th birthday, which was like the best thing that has ever happened in terms of diabetes for me, so that's not a struggle, but that's a good Hey, can
Scott Benner 1:05:01
I ask you Did you get it? by first trying a free no obligation demo? And did you?
Denae 1:05:07
I had one, but I actually never put it on because I already knew that I wanted it. And I try
again. Did I try again? Did you use the link on the pod comm forward slash juice box eat a free no obligation demo of the Omni pod? I did use. Thank you, Jesus, try a little harder. Oh, my gosh. How did you know you wanted the pump. Um, so I actually had wanted it for a while. Back in high school, I asked for it. Because I had been using, I started off with the syringes. And then I moved to the pens and I had been using the pens for a really long time. And then I was like, I really don't want to use these anymore. And so I had spoken to my endocrinologist about it. And they were like, well, your agency is too high for it. And I was like, Oh, that's weird. Okay. So then I was trying to get it down. And then they were like, okay, we'll do like a class on it. And then I just never got around to it. And then once I started hearing the podcast, and how well it worked for people. I had changed endocrinologist. Good for you, because that other one said stupid stuff to you. Like you're a once he's too high for a pump. I never understand that.
Yeah, I was a little bit thrown by that. And she was also the pediatric endocrinologist. But then I had changed. I think, in December, I want to say, um, I had one previously, but I didn't really see her that often because I just was avoiding all of that and didn't really like hospitals. So I didn't go. And so then I changed to one who I now love, he is so smart, super nice. And actually, like cares about what I have to say. And when I told him about your podcast, he was like, I'm gonna listen to it. And so he listens to you actually now, which is pretty cool. And so then I was like, Yeah, I really want to get on the pump. It's gonna help a lot. And he was like, yeah, definitely will. And then I started in August, and that, like, completely changed the a one c two. So it's really good. Good for you. What's your doctor's name? Scott Sperling,
Scott Benner 1:07:47
Scott, thank you for listening. Thank you for being progressive enough to lead and I have a pump. You know, you have something else in common with Omnipod. You're both there in Massachusetts. Yes, we are. I visited last year I gave a I gave a talk to the employees at the the building where some of the offices are and where they actually make the pods. And I got to take a tour of the production facility, which is fascinating, because oh, that's pretty cool. run by robots. And everything is very, very neat. Just very cool. But yeah, you guys have that in common? Yeah, you're right up there in mass, a place where it snows and becomes uninhabitable for human life.
Denae 1:08:31
Yeah. And then it's like warm the next day.
Scott Benner 1:08:34
Well, that's global warming. But but that that harder that is cold weather in, especially in the Boston area right there. It's unholy the way it comes off the water like that and just crushes the area in that cold. It's oh my gosh, I don't know how you live there to me.
Denae 1:08:53
I don't know either. I've been trying to leave for so long. Because of the cold. Yes, I cannot get myself to get out of here. But I've been trying.
Scott Benner 1:09:04
You ever heard Sam fold on the show. Sam used to be a professional baseball player and he's a coach now for the Phillies. He was up for the head coaching job in Boston just recently. And it went to someone else and I sent him a simple text that said too cold there anyway.
Unknown Speaker 1:09:22
Because
Scott Benner 1:09:23
nobody, it's just I don't know how you guys do it. It's fascinating. It's cold here. But Boston is a it's frigid there. Yeah, in the wintertime. Okay, so is there anything that we have not covered that you wish that we would? Um, I think that's all not bad. I thought you were great. I really appreciate you coming on and doing this. Yeah. Thanks for having me. Seriously. This all started with you just wanting to make fun of Kim Kardashian. And
Denae 1:09:50
I know when I saw that I was like, terrible. What a bad influence. Now that's an influencer. I do not agree with he
Scott Benner 1:09:57
sends me a picture of Kim Kardashian checking her ketones, which I guess is something people do that don't have diabetes, I probably around dieting reasons if I'm guessing something about ketosis Yeah. And, and she's, she's like the first paragraph of your emails, like, look at this. horrified, then the rest of it. And I think you were one of those people, you weren't really looking to be on the show as much as did I push you back? Or were you hoping to be on I can't tell. People are so polite when they email sometimes I think I'm not even sure if they want to be on my wife says I'm not good at reading signals from people. But
Denae 1:10:34
I just emailed and I just wanted to thank you for everything that you do on the podcast. And you're like, if you want to come on, you can like, Oh, really? Well, it was not expecting that. Okay, sure.
Scott Benner 1:10:46
About what you said that made me think that it would be a good idea to have you on and look, I was right, just like
Denae 1:10:52
I did mention. I don't know if this was it or not, but I'm planning on going to school to become an endocrinologist actually for to help with type one diabetics. I went to school for nutrition and want to specialize in like nutrition for diabetics and everything so,
Scott Benner 1:11:14
so weight to you, you want to become a doctor, or you want to do nutrition for people with type one, I'm sorry, I misunderstood.
Denae 1:11:21
I want to become a doctor. But I went to school for nutrition. And I'm going to go to back to become a dietitian, and then go to school to become an endocrinologist.
Scott Benner 1:11:36
Good luck with that. That's amazing. I need more doctors on my side. So that's a good idea. As a matter of fact, everyone listening should become an endocrinologist, we can fix this whole thing right now start talking to people differently about their, their diabetes, give them a better chance. That's all that's my marching orders for everybody today. Quit your jobs.
Denae 1:11:55
12 years and I'll be on your show again for endocrinology.
Scott Benner 1:12:00
I'll tell you what, I'll keep it going that long. Just to hear that story. I really well. I just told somebody the other day, they're like, when do you think the podcast is ending? And I was like, never if I can help it. Yeah. That's really great. And I thank you so much for coming on and doing this. I appreciate that. Thank you for having me. Of course. Hold on one second, please. I'm starting the recording back up. I don't usually do this. But wait. So you, you can speak French? So like, could you say I have type one diabetes in French? Jd I bet. Tip one. Do other words like can you say you're listening to the Juicebox Podcast? She could do a podcast. What? Wait, I talked over you do it again. Ta could la podcast Did you but that's so much fun for me for reasons that I can't put into words. You can you have full conversations in French and or does it go away if you don't use it? Yeah, I speak with my mom a lot. Um, it's a little rusty right now, just because I haven't been there in a little while. The last time I went I was in September of 2019. So yeah, so you go back to France. And then it takes a couple of days and then it's back.
Denae 1:13:20
Yeah, kind of refreshes after like a day or so. But I try to keep up with it as much as I can. I watch a lot of French shows. So just to like kind of keep up. And I speak with my mom. When I can.
Scott Benner 1:13:38
That's excellent. Yeah, I definitely would not want to lose that skill. I took French for three years in high school. And no, no French whatsoever. So myself, I believe at one point I could count the eight. Eight wasn't for me. those last two numbers. That's a 10 wait isn't enough. Nine. Yes. Cat sang? What is that? Five? Oh. This is 10 ds. Yeah, I was terrible. Like, whatever. My brain did not work that way. I literally sat through three years of French class and I couldn't speak three words of French. My brain just like, trust me the fact that I teach anybody anything is it's kind of ridiculous. grammar that will get you Oh, please. I never even got far enough into it to understand that part of it. It just does not it just I couldn't pick it up it to me math and French were the same thing. I just, I don't I don't understand things that don't. I don't know. I can't even put into words for you why I don't understand it. But I can't understand algebra. And I could not learn to speak another language. So I feel I can talk about Pre-Bolus thing though. So all right. All right. Yeah, that's the easy stuff. Right? Yeah. Just understanding when to put this in and how long to wait and when to do this, that I get the rest of it. Not so much. Okay, I can't be too long. I'm sorry. I will. I appreciate this. Thank you again. Thank you. Bye. Hey, what's the name not amazing. Today everybody round of applause. You should be clapping to it. Thanks so much to Dexcom, makers of the G six continuous glucose monitor. And the pod makers of the Omni pod dash tubeless insulin pump for sponsoring this episode. Go to Omni pod.com Ford slash juice box and dexcom.com forward slash juice box to find out more about these amazing products and to support the Juicebox Podcast. Thank you so much for listening. Don't forget there's a new show every Monday, Wednesday and Friday.Scott Benner 0:00
Hello friends, and welcome to Episode 501 of the Juicebox Podcast.
Hey everyone, welcome back. Today we're going to be speaking with DNA. DNA is a young adult living with Type One Diabetes. She's had it for a decade, and she's here to tell us her story. Please remember, while you're listening that nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise, always consult a physician before making any changes to your health care plan. We're becoming bold with insulin. That was such an unfair introduction to this episode because it goes in a wonderful direction and fills a lot of little gaps in your heart. But I can't give it all away here during the music, right? You have to listen to the episode, which I'm going to call. See, I want to call it alone in a room full of people. alone in a full room, I kind of make it a little alone in a room full of people. Alright, that's what I'm going to call it. It's not catchy, but it fits.
This episode of The Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by the Dexcom g six continuous glucose monitor. I want you to go to dexcom.com Ford slash juice box to learn more about the Dexcom CGM getting that information that data that stuff that you can see in real time. It's a game changer. The podcast is also sponsored by the Omni pod, you can get a free no obligation 30 day trial. If you're eligible of the Omni pod dash at Omni pod.com forward slash juice box. You could just use a pump for free for a month if you're eligible. That is at least worth checking out. Omnipod comm forward slash juice box dexcom.com forward slash juice box here's the name.
Denae 2:21
I am Denae. I'm from Boston mass. I'm 24. And I was diagnosed when I was 1410 years. Yeah, it'll be 10 years in May so definitely
Scott Benner 2:37
feel like a big thing or not. Particularly do not count it like that.
Denae 2:41
Um, yeah, I don't know. 10 years is a lot. I haven't really made like a big thing of the diversity I guess. Maybe that's the last few years I have just because it's been more of like a better thing. But I think 10 years will be a big thing for sure.
Scott Benner 3:02
Alright, today what how are you touching?
Denae 3:05
It was my What is it? I air pod case? I'm not touching it anymore. I'm sorry, I have a glass table. That's probably why it makes so much noise. And I don't
Scott Benner 3:18
want you to be sorry. I think it's really common in the first 15 or 20 minutes of the episode. People are jittery. And a lot of people touch things, too. It's it's really interesting, but yours is really loud for some reason. So squeeze your knee or something like that. Getting on my hands now. Did I use sitting on your hands for real? I hear Oh, yeah. Excellent. You know, it's funny the, the way the show starts traditionally where people are like, Hi, my name is Denae and blah, blah, blah. You know, that actually came from the first time I couldn't. Alright, I'm going to admit something now. So it came from the first time I started recording with someone and couldn't remember their name. Oh, really. So that's an artful way to get around not knowing someone's name. I said, Hey, just introduce yourself real quick. I like it. And then it became such a nice way to start the show where someone just comes on says, Hey, I'm Steve. And you know, but like that. I said, I really liked that. But it absolutely came from my own embarrassment and me trying to cover up for myself. So I like it. I like it. And thank thank God, I did that because now six years later, your name? I probably would have gotten wrong if I tried to pronounce it. I don't know why it's so pretty common. You're not you wouldn't be the first one. Now it's a tough one. It's so obvious now that you said it. But looking at it. Like all morning I was like oh my god, I think this is a woman.
Denae 4:48
I've gotten so many different variations. So it wouldn't have been it wouldn't have been the first time. So what made you reach out? Um, so I started out actually listening to your podcasts in January of this year, I have just started a job at Mass General. And I was taking the train in so I kind of wanted to find something to listen to on the train. And I just happen to stumble upon the Juicebox Podcast. And I was like, wow, this is like, the best podcast I've found. And it literally like changed my life, I did not have a good a one. See, I was just not really taking care of myself that well. And then, six months later, my agency went from 13 to seven. And it just completely changed my life. And I just will not listen to anything else ever. So I just wanted to come on and just say thank you for everything that you do. And honestly, like, just come on, and say that and really, it's just like, amazing how just listening to something can just impact somebody's life so much. And somehow, if like, my story could change someone's life as yours did, and so many other people's stories did that would like even just one person like that would be incredible.
Scott Benner 6:25
I agree. It is a very big deal to do something that impacts someone else's health. It feels amazing. So you're going to do that you're going to tell your story, and somebody else is going to find something interesting about it. But let's first come to I just came to a realization so let's talk about this first. I'm always joking about people naming a baby after me as tribute. But why don't I start asking to be named in the in the life insurance? Really this is this is what I should be doing. I just I can't believe I've been wasting this effort on get a getting a baby named Scott. I don't even like my own name. Alright, from now on, if people feel like I'm saved them. I would like to be included in their life insurance policy, or 401k. payouts are anything at all. Really? That's, that's now what I'm going to ask for. You're too young. You'll outlive me by a lot. So maybe you could just give me a baby name Scott one day tonight. Yeah. No, I'm incredibly uncomfortable. And happy at the same time. It's a very, it's a very weird blend of feelings. To have someone say to you, I found your podcast. I thought it was great. change my life. It's hard to know how to respond to that. Yeah, I bet. Yeah. Really? Yes. So I make really bad jokes instead. Although that's a great coping mechanism. Honestly. I got DNA. I grew up a fat kid. I had nothing else. What was I gonna do? You know, I had to be funny. They would have beat my ass if I wasn't funny. I grew up in a I was I grew up in the 70s and the early 80s. You needed to be funny if you weren't athletic, or willing to get high or was gonna go down tonight. You know what I mean? Like you. You're gonna be though, you're not like you watch movies. Now you're like, oh, stuffing people in lockers? What a trade idea that doesn't would happen. It really happened. I wasn't looking for it to be me. But But seriously, congratulations. Tell me again, where your agency was and where it went to in a year, less than a year
Denae 8:22
is six months. Yeah, I was at 13. And it went to seven, but not
Scott Benner 8:27
- Like just diagnosed like you had diabetes for nine years. And it was 13.
Denae 8:32
Yeah. It's been from it had been anywhere from like nine to 13. And just that this past couple of years, like before the pandemic and everything. My family had gone through a lot of things. And so it was just really hard to keep everything under control. And so I just wasn't really the best at doing the best, you know, and it just ended up being higher than I wanted it to be. And then one day, I kind of just found the podcast and I can't even like freaked myself out into taking care of myself where I was like, if I don't do this, I'm literally going to go blind. And I kind of just like, gave myself the fear factor and was like, Okay, I need to do something about this. And then once I just kept listening, I was like, all these people are doing so well. Like if they can do it, I definitely can do it. Like if anyone can do it. So can I so then I was like, You know what, I have all these tools and all these resources and like I also use the Omni pod and the Dexcom. So I have access to all these things and like it's easy, just do it. So then I just did it.
Scott Benner 9:57
So you're making a lot of points that I'm interested in. First of all, I got to get this out of the way before we start. You're not from Boston, obviously. Are you from the south? I'm not. No, I'm from Boston. You're from Boston with that accent that you have right there. I have an accent. Well, no, you have the lack of an accent. Not that like it would be from a movie where you know, it's on the yard and stuff like that. But I'm just saying like, you really, I thought you were from more like Virginia and had moved up.
Denae 10:27
Oh, so my mom was born and raised in France. And when so I spoke French growing up. So I don't actually have like a Boston accent.
Scott Benner 10:38
You certainly don't. Okay. All right. So that's just to get that out of the way so that I don't spend the entire interview thinking like where's she from? So okay, so you Saudis taught you how to speak English? properly? Do you still speak French at all? Sorry, do you still speak any French? I do? Yes. We're gonna do stuff with that. Okay. Okay. So you, you proved out. And I think a lot of people listening have but a theory that I've had for a long time. So if you've been listening, you know that I wrote a blog for like a decade in the in the diabetes space before I started doing this, and honestly, is you and I are recording this in a couple of weeks. The seventh? I think, yeah, the seventh season of the podcast is going to start in a couple of weeks. And I'm not like, I don't do what those other some of those other podcasts like, you know, they've been around for three years now. Like we're on episode or on season 12. And I'm like, what, you know, like they put out five episodes and call it a season or whatever. When I tell you that this podcast is starting its seventh season, it's starting its seventh year of being at least a weekly show, as well, please. It's not that incredible. Just I sit and talk to people. And then I put it's not that hard. But But I appreciate it. But what my point is, is that the overwhelming theory online, that was during blogging, time I was blogging heavily. And even when I started the podcast was you don't show other people with diabetes, people who are doing well, because that makes them feel bad. Yeah, and I've never agreed with that. I've always thought that aspirational was the way to go, that you look at someone and just think they're not doing better than me. They just they know something. I don't know. Let me find out what that is. And that is what happened to you. Hmm.
Denae 12:27
Yeah, cuz diabetes is a learning curve. Like there's always something else to learn. There's, there's doing it, and then there's knowing something else that somebody else doesn't know exactly. Like, that's what you just said.
Scott Benner 12:39
But you can't do something you don't understand, like I said the other day, and I saw somebody echo it online, that you can't fail at something you have no knowledge of. Exactly. Yeah. And, and so we want to not give. So the prevailing idea was, don't teach them anything. And they'll figure it out. But what they were seeing back was that most people don't figure it out. And I always thought, why don't we just, I mean, listen, first of all, I was lucky at the time to really look at it. And to figure it out, I was a stay at home parent, right? So I could take a long look a hard look, sometimes a micro sometimes a macro and figure things out and come up with ideas. And you know, only learn to talk about them because of the blog. But most people don't even have that time they're off at work, or they're at school. They're just like staying alive. It's like it's a constant. Just tell me about that. Tell me about this first nine years ago, what was your life like?
Denae 13:44
When I first got diagnosed, I was 14. So I had just started high school. Um, and it's funny, I remember other people telling me what it was like for me, but I don't really remember it for myself, which is weird. Because I didn't know I was really feeling bad until I started feeling better. And so I had all the typical signs of it, but not really many people in my family kind of knew what it was they just knew something was wrong. So I had like the extreme thirst, extreme hunger, weight loss, hair loss, everything. And then by the time I was diagnosed, I was 82 pounds. And the doctors were like, We don't even know how you're alive right now. And that I remember that like clear as day like that was probably the one of the most memorable things. And the reason I went into the hospital actually was because I was getting headaches, or the doctor's office Actually, I went to the doctors because I was getting headaches and they were like, oh, we're just gonna like run some tests and stuff. So then we had left and they called They were like, you need to go to the emergency room right now. And we were like, oh, why? And they're like, you have diabetes. It was funny because I never really had like, crazy reactions to things until I kind of understood them. So my first reaction to was, Oh, well, at least it's not cancer. And that was my first reaction to hearing that I had diabetes. So I never really like, was like, Oh, it's not. Like, I didn't understand how bad I was feeling until I felt better. So I was when I was in the hospital,
I started really grasping it, and I was like, Oh, crap, this is really what it is. And they give you like, the diabetes 101 crash course in four days. And you're like, Okay, so here's your new life, have fun, bye. And then they just give you your whole new set of rules for the rest of your life in a matter of hours. And then when you get home, you're like, Okay, so now this is what it is. And that's really what I kind of started setting in, that everything was going to be different. And then
Scott Benner 16:16
I find that to be dangerous. And it's understandable what happens. They obviously they can't tell you the whole world in a couple of days. Yeah, but that, but when you're in that situation, at least, this is how I felt. everything that was said to me felt like a set in stone rule. And this Wow, I agree. Right? Right. Like this is how everything has to be all the time, there was never any body who would pull me aside to Hey, look, this is gonna morph, it's gonna change, you're gonna need to be flexible. Like, you know, I know, we said here, one to this many carbs. But, you know, over time, you'll see that change. All of this is momentary. And if they would have just let me know that I know, like, No, I'm not blaming anyone, I'm saying that if if I would have had that information, I wouldn't have spent so many years trying to make this elusive disease fit a very specific narrative. And that's where the maddening part comes to me. Is is the trying to make it fit exactly the thing that was said to you on day one, when you were for, write it, because I bet you when you were 16, you were a completely different person than you were when you were 14.
Denae 17:27
Yeah, they made it almost like a cookie cutter thing. And I was like, This is not the same as it was, like, I remember specific, like, I would make my lunches for school. And I was like, I need to have 15 pita chips. And this many of this. And that many of that. And I can only have eight ounces of juice and bla bla bla. And I was like, this is probably like, this isn't normal. Like, it was the weirdest thing ever. And then going to school like my friends before, like, when you go to lunch, like, you know, people would share lunch and everything, like people be like, Oh, can I have a chip? And I'm like, No, you can't have one or I'll die. Like, it's just like, so cut in clean and in set in stone, that you have to have everything perfect. And that's just not how you live your life. Because as everyone who has diabetes knows diabetes is far from perfect,
Scott Benner 18:22
isn't it? kind of almost funny to that? You feel like I'm doing everything exactly the way I was taught? Put your a one C was over nine. Yeah. Right. But you probably never put those two things together because you were doing what you were taught.
Denae 18:35
Exactly, yeah. And there's always like, you're trying so hard, and the numbers still are just not adding up. And that led to like a lot of different things down the road for me too, which also led to hire a one season everything. So it just was like a constant struggle and like a battle. So it was just hard all the time.
Scott Benner 19:02
So you guys were basically which one was excuse me, was one of your parents helping you with management or was it just for you to do
Denae 19:11
um, so I have always been a very extremely independent child. And I my parents insisted on helping but I insisted on doing it. A lot of my own, like a lot of my own. My mom was the one that helped more, or I put a lot of the while she was kind of more involved, I guess. She would come to the appointments with me and we would kind of relay the information to my dad. And because he's a teacher, so he was at school a lot and everything. But my mom worked from home most of the time. And
Scott Benner 20:03
well did I was when you say your mom was at the appointments, but when you got home and it was time to have an apple or 15 pita chips or something like that, was she helping you with that? Or were you just on your own?
Denae 20:15
Um, so it's kind of like the appointment high, I guess you go to the appointment and then like the surrounding days of the appointment, my mom would be like, Alright, this is what you have to do this we have to do because she was there and she was in it and bla bla bla,
Scott Benner 20:30
it's, it's like the week after y'all decide to go on a diet together with a bunch of people. Like when you get together with family, you're like, we could go on to do a weight loss challenge, we'll all try to lose 10 pounds. And then by Tuesday, you're like, I'm gonna lose 10 pounds. And then by Saturday, like, I'm just gonna go to a bar.
Denae 20:45
Yeah, that's exactly it. Yeah. Cuz at the end of the day, they don't actually have diabetes. And I do. So I'm like, Okay, fine. Like, I still have to do this, though. Like, you can. Like, you can say that you want to do it, but you don't actually have to do it. Like I actually have to do this. Yeah. So and like, obviously, there's no like bullying or anything of it. But they're much older, like, they have a lot more responsibility and like different responsibility. And like, I actually have it. So it just like is what it is. But I've always been an independent person too. So I never placed any responsibility on them for it either. So I was just like, I can do it. Like, it's me, I can do it. And as a kid, you're like, I'm invincible. I can do it. And I can do anything I want at the same time. So it probably was more than like, I probably bit off more than I could chew.
Scott Benner 21:45
Were you a bit of a pain in the ass? Like, did you like were they trying to help? And you kept them at arm's length?
Denae 21:50
Oh, absolutely. I was so stubborn. Was Yes, I still am Yes. Yeah, I always wanted to do it by myself. And I was like, I could do it. And I can do it by myself. Oh, I was definitely a pain in the ass.
Scott Benner 22:06
I didn't have to take a supplement. Like once a week. It's just a vitamin. And it took me four days to get her to take it. It's just, I must have said, Hey, take that vitamin real quick. Like 5000 times I put it in front of her or anything. You just take that for I don't like to take pills. I'm like, yeah, no one does. Can you just take it, you know, on and on. And at one point. Last night, she comes up, I was editing the show and putting a shop last night. She comes upstairs and she just got done writing something for her AP Lang class. And she's like, Can you read the conclusion with me and see what you think? And I was like, Sure. So we started reading. And as I was reading, I said, Hey, just take that vitamin. And she started laughing. She's like I did. I was like, Are you sure? And she's laughing. I did. I did, I promise. And at this point, she had actually taken it. But had told me she was going to not take it for so many days in a row. that by the time she actually took it. She's cracking up laughing and then she was worried. I didn't believe her because she was laughing. And I understand what you're saying about. Yeah, well, about having somebody tell you to do something that you just don't want to do it. No, no, it's it's completely common response. But the but the issue ends up being Hey, you know what, you freaked me out. But because I just sat here and did the math on the calendar. Not that it was tough math, but you were diagnosed in 2012. Is that right? 2011? That, like you understand that 2011? Like I thought there'd be flying cars in 2011. Like, that's how old I am. Right? Like and you're you were 14 then even just now like, like putting together my head that you're 24 like, flips me out like you like you weren't diagnosed? What do I mean, you're an adult with type one who wasn't diagnosed in the dark ages of type one. And yet you still had an A one c over nine.
Unknown Speaker 24:00
Mm hmm. I want you to
Denae 24:03
know, as much as the technology has changed, it's still feels like so much as like, even just nine years ago, it still feels like there was so much that has changed.
Scott Benner 24:15
But what it's making me think is that everyone listening needs to understand that the technology or the tools or whatever you want to call it where you know how you always hear people say like, this is the best time to be diagnosed with type one. I say that because it's true, right? But it's not true if someone doesn't teach you how to do it.
Unknown Speaker 24:36
Exactly right.
Scott Benner 24:37
And and so because you should not you obviously can do it because you're doing it. Right. Right. And so you lack something for nine years that was there and attainable. And that's sad to me. I also am really excited for you that you found the other side of it. But in a larger way, it makes me worried for everyone else who, you know, you're going to see all these algorithms just existing in the world with pumps and algorithms and glucose monitors. And I, you know, Arden uses one, and I know how well it works. But you just made me realize that it doesn't matter, because most people aren't going to do it. Yeah, if we don't drag them forward into it, and teach them how to do it, so that they can do it on their own. People aren't just gonna pick it up on their own. Yeah. Okay. Well, tell me a little bit about those, those first years, especially as you got into your late teens and early 20s, you are aware that you're a one sees way higher than you want it to be? I assume you're trying? Or were you just not trying at all? What was the vibe?
Denae 25:47
Yeah, so I went through a lot of difficult times growing up in diabetes, because a lot of me didn't really want to have diabetes, I really got it at a time where you don't really know who you are yet. So you're kind of figuring out all of that, and getting it when people are just kind of figuring out who you are. And then all of a sudden, realizing have this thing that makes you different, you're just like, I don't want this because no one else has it. And I think that kind of just really set me apart. And so I just avoided it for a really long time. And I did the bare minimum. And so that definitely contributed to a high and one C for a long time. And the beginning parts of all of the rules and regulations around like no one what to eat, when to eat, how much to eat, and like carb counting in the like sliding factors and all of that, or like sliding scales, and all of that contributed to me developing an eating disorder as well. So I had, um, I'm sure you've heard of it before, but dyeable aimia. And that happened for a really long time. And my senior year of high school, actually, I ended up going into treatment for it. Not for very long. And in a terrible place, which does did not know anything about diabetes, which is also one of the things that I want to like advocate for is just know, like going to build awareness around places for in treatments and inpatient treatment centers to build up awareness for diabetes around like places like that, because my experience with that was just so awful, that they just have no education around that. And like, I was told that there was a place that place was for people like myself who have died, who had died, Alenia and then just going in there and realizing that they had absolutely no idea what they were doing, like they had the most bare minimum knowledge of it was like, I was so shocked. And it was just like, crazy to me that they just didn't know what they were doing.
Scott Benner 28:48
Well, when you said that, to make sure not to do it in a bad place. I thought you were about like Sean Boston.
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Where's she going with this? But But I hear I hear what you're saying you need a reputable place that is well versed has a plan you should check on what that plan is before you go in. But again, tough because you don't know what they're supposed to be doing. So how do you check them on whether or not they know they're and it's gonna be references? It's gonna be? Yeah, right. Just this
Denae 33:25
specific center like Yeah, but um, there. It was just I wasn't even in there for a very long, but it was recommended by the hospital that I had been diagnosed that and so I was like, What is the affiliation between these? And how is their connection with them? Like, how much do they keep up with it? Do they supply them with their own doctors? Do they educate them do that? How often is their training like? I was like, all of the stuff that I was thinking about the whole time. And it was just weird to see it from my side as a diabetic and then seeing it also in the perspective of someone who had an eating disorder. So I have both sides. Yeah. And then just kind of putting the two and two together where they only have half of the treatment. Whereas somebody who has more than one thing going on, but I'm just only one side of that. Like what if somebody else had something completely different? And they only do half for treatment?
Scott Benner 34:40
Yeah. I mean, it's listen to healthcare as a business and know that not every business is run. Well, you know what I mean? And it's interesting how how we think about, like, if you have a storefront sign, well then you say you make sandwiches, then they're going to be good sandwiches inside here. Then you go buy one and you're like us terrible. You know, it turns out everybody can't make a great sandwich. But it doesn't stop them for a moment as owning a sandwich shop. Yeah, so you have to do some diligence. But it's also interesting that you're in a bad way to begin with. And once you've made the decision to go for treatment, I would imagine, it's hard to put into your mind, well, now I need to, you know, check on this place and make sure they're gonna do what they say and that they have everything I need. And it's just sounds like a fraught time in your life. And you can understand not being able to do that.
Denae 35:34
That like 1718 years old, that's not like, right, all the questions that you're asking either, too. So those are the questions that came down from other people as well that I had the years after think about,
Scott Benner 35:49
right, right. Yeah. Yeah, I have to ask you, you didn't mention diabelli Mia, in your email, and I heard you, you've struggled to it through this first half an hour, like you wanted to tell me but you you had trouble getting it out a couple of different times. So I want to check, are you okay, that means you said something, I think you weren't sure you were gonna say today. Is that right?
Denae 36:07
Oh, I didn't mention at all in the email at first. But I had while since I had time, from when we scheduled the meeting, to think about all the things that I wanted to say. But when I was listening to some of the podcasts, from the beginning, there was a woman who said that she had a lot of struggles. I've It was one of the earlier podcast, I wanted to go back and look at it. I think it was in like in the early two hundreds, I think. But she said that she has struggled with it a lot. And she had suffered from a lot of complications. And that was actually one of the reasons why I was just like, Okay, time to get into action and time to get myself together. And I just think that sharing the struggles will help people who might be too afraid to come out and say things to really, like, realize that they're not alone, because a lot of the people who share their stories in the podcast, were brave enough to come out and say their story. And like, I was one of those people for a really long time to not come out and say anything. And then I saw that there are people out there who are not doing well, like I wasn't doing well. And I'm not alone and other people out there not alone in it does get better. It's
Scott Benner 37:38
your turn to be brave. That's all, you know. Yeah. Oh, that's, it's really nice that you're sharing it. So tell me a little bit about what people should be looking for. So if I'm a parent of someone, or if I'm an adult living with type one, how does diabetes rear its head? Originally? How did it start?
Denae 37:56
Um, a lot of the signs are definitely, um, decrease in, like, renewing prescriptions for sure. And so like, if you notice that there's a lot of, like, if your child is saying like, Oh, yeah, I'm definitely doing what I was supposed to like, I'm doing all the insulin, like, I'm carb counting, I'm doing my assemble a lot. But you're noticing that you're not refilling prescriptions as often as you usually are. That's a huge design. I did that a lot. And another one is you are noticing that the agency is really high every time you go to the endocrinologist, but the meter is always saying a number that doesn't reflect anyone see. There's like definitely number manipulation, where they'll, um, they'll take insulin and then change the date and time on the meter. And then just check their blood sugar over and over again and change the date and time on the meter.
Scott Benner 39:07
That sounds like much work than a
Denae 39:09
lot of work. Trust me. I spent a lot of time doing that. And it was not a lot of fun.
Scott Benner 39:17
Can I ask you? Is it more work keeping your agency where it is now or more work pretending that you have a good day one say
Denae 39:24
Oh, it's so much more work pretending is so much more work. Because you have this constant fear where you're like, someone's gonna find out but like, I need to do like it's it's a constant battle all the time because you're like, it's all psychological. It's in your head and you're like, I have to do this because like, in order for me to be the way that I need to be like, it's, it's not you take me over like you think you're in control, but you're really not. And you're like, I'm trying to tell everybody that this is the way that it is, but it's really not like, and then it catches up to you. And it's just, it just all falls apart. And so honestly, you feel better, you look better, you act better. If you just are in control of your numbers the right way, then if you're controlling the numbers the wrong way,
Scott Benner 40:24
I don't know if you're aware of this or not. But a number of times while we've been talking, you've alluded to or flat out said that the way you are, you didn't know about someone else had to tell you. So when you were diagnosed, you didn't know how you felt someone? Do you don't remember how you felt someone told you how you felt? And even now, what I'm hearing is that is that you're, you're you were never really being yourself, you were being what you thought you were supposed to be or what someone told you were supposed to be. Did you lose a lot in that gap of time? Like, are you able to look back now? And like, I don't, I don't want to be a bummer. But what was there a lot of wasted life in there?
Denae 41:12
Oh, yeah, there's definitely a lot of time that was spent trying to kind of keep up something that wasn't really the way that it was supposed to be, you know, like,
Unknown Speaker 41:26
being
Denae 41:29
being what I thought I was supposed to be, well, not maybe not supposed to be, but like being the way that I thought I wanted to be, was a lot more than it should have been. And it took a lot more than it needed to.
Scott Benner 41:49
So a lot of effort to create appearances. And you're not even necessarily sure that's how you really want it to be to begin with. Yeah, I mean, it's, it's, it's, it feels convoluted, but it's, it's not really it's, to me, I've said here before, one of the things I hate, I hate a lot of things and you know, wasted time is one of them. I genuinely hate the idea of wasting time, I hate when there are a group of people together. Three people, let's say one person is lying. The other two people know they're lying. But don't say anything to them. And we stand in this circle, having this completely bogus conversation that not one person believes in, but we're doing it for appearances, or we're doing it to set something up or I I'm frustrated by that kind of thinking to begin with, like I'm almost, I'm almost angry at the person who you used to be for like, like doing that with the meter. And yet I know it happens to so many people it is such a common story of fixing the meat or making it look right just so you can go to the doctor just to keep the doctor from yelling at you is that
Denae 43:06
I knew that it was wrong to like I knew that. What I what I was doing was Shouldn't I shouldn't have been doing but there was just like some sort of fear or something surrounded by it, like I had this constant need to be perfect all the time. And the sight of the numbers just being high, was like I just can't even look at it. And like I didn't want to do it. So then every time I saw a high number, I just didn't want to do it and I didn't want to see it. So then I would just avoid it. And I would avoid checking my blood sugar until maybe like a week before. And then I would go back and just read, fabricate all those numbers. And then I would go in, they would check my agency and they'd be like, well, we don't understand what's wrong. And then they'd be like, maybe it's the meter. We'll give you a new one. And I was like, yeah, maybe that's it. And like I just was like, I couldn't really come to terms with myself. And knowing the fact that I just needed to do it and like I knew that I needed to but I just couldn't get myself to
Scott Benner 44:25
know if you so first of all, please understand and I'm sure you do because you were having a nice conversation here and you you're really cool, but I don't I didn't mean like Angry you like, like at you. I meant I'm angry to think that you wasted time. Oh, yeah. Right. And then other people are doing the same thing and not even just with I mean yours is obviously you know it's its own little criminal enterprise with changing the numbers and the dates on things and testing when you know you're low and changing dates, but even what the doctor's office did, like come on, like how many times does the doctor's office need to Seeing a one c that's 11 and a meter that says you're a one see a six, and they know two. So now they know, you know, they're handing you a new meter like, oh, maybe it's this and you're like, yeah, maybe you're literally in the scenario that I painted where everyone's just foolish. And we're acting like it's okay. It's a strange thing, to me really frustrating. Away from diabetes even because I, I so much preferred directness, and, and competency. Because, look, I mean, look what happened to you, you just randomly found a podcast, and you're a onesies. What now? And I think the last time I checked, it was 7.1. Jesus, that's so great. Good for you. That's amazing. And and what's the difference between this whole nine years and a 7.1?
Denae 45:56
The podcast on honestly, just like growing up and realizing that if I want to be the best version of myself, it's just like, you know, what you need to do you have the things that you need in order to do them. So why not just do it? It's easier to do it than to not, it's easier to take the steps than to avoid it. And you'll feel better you know, what it's like to feel better. You've been there before. So just but even
Scott Benner 46:29
then, you couldn't accomplish it though, right? Like, where could you have and you just didn't,
Denae 46:34
I could have and I had done it before I had gotten my agency down before. I had gotten it to a nine before. And that was the best I've ever felt in a really long time. I think it was like, my summer going into sophomore year of college. I had started a new like workout program. And I was going to like this boot camp type workout thing. And I started like a meal plan. And it had changed my numbers a lot. And it was working out really well. And my agency went down just from like changing my diet and exercise routine. And, um, after that, I was like, Oh, I can actually do this. So then I just started doing it. And then I go back to college and everything kind of just like, went a little bit haywire. And I kind of fell back into the the die Dibley mum mentality where, like, the insulin restriction actually helped me lose weight more. And it kind of just the psychological aspect of that kind of crept back in and the numbers just went back up. And it didn't really stick. So. So it's just kind of started back up again.
Scott Benner 48:13
So then for you the podcast was more about the the psychological side of diabetes, not so much about the nuts and bolts. Yeah, how to use insulin side of it.
Denae 48:23
Yeah, yeah. The, the technical aspect of diabetes has always come very straightforward to me, like I've always understood the, you take the insulin, and then you eat the food. And it works like that. Like it's straightforward. mathematics, science, it works like that. It ebbs and flows, like it's straightforward like that. But the mentality, like the psychological aspect behind it has always been the struggle for me. And I know that with a lot of people to like, especially just from listening to a lot of the podcast, and that's always been the hard part.
Scott Benner 49:11
Yeah, you. I hope you understand that. That's not how I think of it even like, I know, the podcast does that for you and for people in your situation. But it's not why I started it. It I really did started, like, in my mind that this podcast is about using insulin, but to you it's not really about that at all. And that's really cool. And fascinating to me that that it and so the aspect of having average people in to talk about their diabetes. That's been the real value for you. Yeah, yeah. Okay. All right. I understand. You're helping me. Thank you. You're helping me understand what it does because I'm come from such a I don't have diabetes, obviously. So my my perspective is more I don't even know how to say it. It's, it's less encumbered by the the psychology of having type one, honestly, you know, and, and, and the everything else that comes with having diabetes, but I, I can understand that enough to know what the show needs to be. And having just people on who don't have, you know, you know, blogs and you know, I've been writing about diabetes for 15 years, like, I find it boring to talk to those people, because they have, they have, they've got talking points, and they just, they just, they hit them, they know how to go through them. But if you had me on a podcast, and the podcast is about, you know, making a podcast, if I started telling my story, I would get very cookie cutter too, because I've told it 1000 times, I've had to tell it to every advertiser that you know, is interested in being on the show, like I had to have a conversation last night for an hour with a potential advertiser that likely won't turn into anything. But I still had to do the thing and explain the story and do all that. And so I don't like to have people on who know their story so well, that there's no chance that they'll say something spontaneous and honest, like you did today.
Denae 51:17
Yeah, like it's almost scripted. Right?
Scott Benner 51:19
He comes off very, very, it's nothing against those people. I know a lot of them and they're lovely. And there are times where I think that those people must be so pissed at me. You know, like, I've never invited them on the show, because some of them I really like, but they just, I don't know, they're, they're in a lane and they do a thing. And I want you to like, I'm telling you, you said I've had struggles, you said it three times. Before you basically cop the having Daya Believe me at one point. Yeah. And And that, to me, is so valuable for people listening, because other people who have diabetes emia, who don't tell anybody can understand how you feel. And then they can hear that it worked out well for you. And that you overcame this hurdle. That probably seemed insurmountable. I would imagine. You know, that whole time? Did you really ever think you were going to get over this?
Denae 52:12
I never thought I would, honestly. And I know like, there, it's always good to have a support system for sure. And I did have people that I think we're good support. But in if I'm being honest, I really think that I got through it by myself, like a lot of it I did on my own. And that's not something a lot of people like to admit like, I definitely don't like that. I did that on my own. And it was definitely really hard, like diabetes is hard. Diabetes is hard. And like going through alone is hard. And while I definitely didn't go through it like 100% alone, but you felt when you felt alone? Yeah, definitely. And like, especially like, I don't know, anybody else who has diabetes, like I'm the only person in my family who has it. I don't, I don't have any friends who have it. I've heard of people who, like, I have friends who have friends who have it, but I don't know anybody personally, who has it. And that definitely was like a factor of like feeling alone in it as well. And so, when I found the podcast, I was like, I'm not alone. Like there are people out there who are going through the same thing as I am. And it helped me like kind of flip the switch and be like, I can, like if all these people can do it, like so can I and it just really like, kind of made helped me make that 180 and realize that, like if there's, if there's a way out, then I have to take the steps to do it. Even if I am going to do it by myself like I can, like I can do it. And if there are people out there who feel like they're alone, like, trust me, you're not like, I felt like I was like you are definitely not alone. And it may feel like that in a world of so many people doing so many different things like going through so many different things. But there are people out there going through something just as similar as you are and trust me like, if you can, if you feel like any part of you wants to get through it just cling on to that and you will get through it. Like I did it in a matter of months, which I did not think would ever happen. But I'm here now and I'm doing great. So
Scott Benner 54:54
that's probably you know, matter of months you didn't know it took you 10 years. And yeah, you got one more piece and that kind of took you over the finish line is is, you know, really the way I would think of it, I wouldn't think of it as you found some magic. It's just maybe the podcast was just the last piece that you needed. There are plenty of people who are you have your situation but are in a different portion of their journey, who find the podcast and doesn't come together for them as quickly. And I think that's important to say, too, because sometimes I hear people say, Why don't get it, there was a guy on the podcast that he found the podcast and three months later is a once he was six, and I listened for three months. And that didn't happen to me. And, Michael, it's not gonna happen the same for everybody. Everybody's at the different in a different part of their journey. And you know, this piece is important, I think. But if you're not ready to receive it, it's tough to just put it into practice and expect it to work. I wondered, while you were talking. Is it possible that I can that a person can be supported, meaning they have family around them who you know, would do anything for you? So you're not really alone? In that sense, yet? You still feel alone?
Denae 56:10
Oh, absolutely. Yeah, my, I definitely have my family. My I have a lot of family who's in the medical field too. So they get an understanding of it. And I guess they have like the silent support, I guess, where they're there for me. And they'll support me. But I guess I just didn't really like Well, I guess I wasn't like super aware of it. Or maybe I just didn't really like Think of it like that.
Scott Benner 56:43
Let me ask you a question and see if this strikes a chord with you. And if it doesn't, that's fine. But I use this as an example all the time. So when I started the podcast, I was very clear that I was going to share how we reach the success that my daughter had. And a person, a specific person in the community admonished me about it. They listened to the podcast, reached out without asking if I was interested, in their opinion, to tell me that I was doing the wrong thing. And that I shouldn't be doing what I was doing. I shouldn't be sharing how I manage my daughter. And they told me it was wrong. And I just I was admonished by this person. And it sticks with me to this day because of how wrong they were. But of how how right they thought they were in the moment. So sure that no one should share how they manage their diabetes, because everyone's different. And your diabetes may vary. And I was back there going like no, no, there are simple truths about diabetes that apply to everyone. And if they just understood this piece of it, and this piece of it, etc, etc, then it would they could make sense of it and decide what parts of what works for my daughter would work for them. And but it was it wasn't lazy, I don't think but it was just such a self righteousness that you're doing, you know, being told you're doing the wrong thing. And now I look back. And I think what if I would have listened to that person? Like what if I would have let them scare me away from doing this, like honestly, that that person seven or eight years ago now was attempting to do something that Denae would have left your a one c over 10 for the rest of your life. And and I don't think we we just don't think enough about our actions sometimes or how sure we can be about something. And it may be someone else might have a different idea. And I just heard you saying that you're you just said something. The way I should say this is that you just said something that made me realize that all the people I've ever spoken to who are adults with diabetes, I'm always trying to get them to say what happened so that other people will know. And it's always my thought that they weren't supported by their parents. And I think that management wise, a lot of them weren't. But they can never say it like you have you. They can never say it out loud, because they don't want to denigrate their parents. That's one thing, like a lot of people just don't want to throw somebody under the bus. But also you felt supported by your parents, just not in a way that was going to lead you to outcomes that were better for your health. So yeah, it just occurred to me that you're not protecting them. You honestly feel good about their support. It just wasn't in its entirety. Everything you needed. Is that all fair? Yeah, I think that's pretty fair. Yeah. Okay. You really just, you said something in a way recent, just like I said a couple minutes ago that made me rethink a lot of answers that I've heard on the podcast. It just, it just now is making sense to me. It's not that those people weren't helping them. They weren't doing the things that they that the person type one specifically needed to have better outcomes. So they were being supported, but not in the way that often the podcast ends up supporting them.
Denae 1:00:10
Yeah, like there was, there was support, but maybe not in the way that could have best benefited me.
Scott Benner 1:00:19
So this is what people mean when they say you can be in a room full of people and feel alone.
Unknown Speaker 1:00:24
Yes. Okay. There's like, it's like, You're, you're being helpful, but you're not helping.
Scott Benner 1:00:32
Yes. And, and, and back to my original rambling point, is that I, I'll say to people all the time, like, I think it's important to share what works for us on the podcast, because it's nice to hear you're not alone at three o'clock in the morning when your blood sugar's low. But wouldn't it be nicer to understand how to get your basil set up so that you actually aren't low at three o'clock in the morning? So that so that you don't need that you're not alone? support? Like, it's not that that you're not alone? support isn't really valuable? But in my mind, it was Wouldn't it be better if you didn't need it? As often? And that's the point I tried to make to that person back then. And they just said, No, you're doing the wrong thing. And I think I've never really like had this feeling out loud. But to that person, oh, yeah, there we go. Right. So I knew I knew what I was talking about. But of course, the irony here, of course, today is that person thought they knew what they were talking about. And it's just perspective. Because what they really meant was, if they were to share what they knew, they thought it would be dangerous for other people to hear. And I felt pretty confident that I could deliver the information in a way that would make it digestible and actionable. Yeah, that's all. I actually think this might be one of my greater accomplishments of my life. Just learning how to talk about diabetes in a way that people can understand it. And I seriously like I, I, if I die tomorrow, just say that at my funeral, I'd be completely happy. Scott was a father and a husband. And he tried really hard to help people with type one diabetes, I think I would be that'd be an okay. eulogy for me.
Denae 1:02:19
I think that last sentence should be he did really well. And helping a lot of people in diabetes just cracked my grammar today. What just happened there? You tried, but no, you did. Oh,
Scott Benner 1:02:30
oh, okay. Hey, I don't need this pressure for you today. I never did well in school. And now you're like, you conjugated the wrong word. Well, thank you. Well, that's that. That's even debatable. It worked for you. And it works. For some people. It works for a lot of people, but it probably doesn't work for everybody. And there are a couple of views on the podcast and people hate me. You know what I mean? Like, I get that I'm not everybody's cup of tea and all, that's fine. But I just thought it was worth trying. Like, what was the harm in trying, everybody always acted like there was harm in trying. And I've known people in the past who have had major sway. Like, you know, we talked about, I don't like the word influencer. And I don't, I don't think of myself in that vein. But there are plenty of people now like Instagram is a good example. Like, I'm an influencer. Like, I don't argue like, aren't you just a guy that looks nice in jeans, and it has a good smile? who happens to have diabetes? Does that make you a diabetes influencer? You know, like, I don't I don't understand that. Specifically, I don't understand the idea of wanting to influence somebody either. Like I don't like for me, it's about I have a message. Here it is. I hope it works for you. Yeah, you're talking and some people like to listen, that's really, that's exactly how I think of it. It's just it's up to you to pick it up or put it down. And it doesn't it. I mean, it doesn't not matter to me, but I mean, I'm not hurt if you don't like the podcast, right? Yeah. It's the only thing I can do. I'm not trying to make a thing that I think you'll be preconceived, pre determined to like, I just, this is the thing I have, and you'll, you know, you'll do with it what you want. I'm excited that it helps you. Really, it's
Denae 1:04:16
been it's been a really great help. It's changed a lot for me, so cool.
Scott Benner 1:04:21
I it's really kind of you to share you said your Did you have any other troubles that beyond diabetes aimia that are worth sharing? Um, was that the big impediment?
Denae 1:04:32
Yeah, that's probably the biggest one, but just like, really? Well, I recently got the Omni pod. And well, there's never been really any struggle with the Omni pod. But like, that's probably the best thing that I've gotten. I got it actually the day after my 24th birthday, which was like the best thing that has ever happened in terms of diabetes for me, so that's not a struggle, but that's a good Hey, can
Scott Benner 1:05:01
I ask you Did you get it? by first trying a free no obligation demo? And did you?
Denae 1:05:07
I had one, but I actually never put it on because I already knew that I wanted it. And I try
again. Did I try again? Did you use the link on the pod comm forward slash juice box eat a free no obligation demo of the Omni pod? I did use. Thank you, Jesus, try a little harder. Oh, my gosh. How did you know you wanted the pump. Um, so I actually had wanted it for a while. Back in high school, I asked for it. Because I had been using, I started off with the syringes. And then I moved to the pens and I had been using the pens for a really long time. And then I was like, I really don't want to use these anymore. And so I had spoken to my endocrinologist about it. And they were like, well, your agency is too high for it. And I was like, Oh, that's weird. Okay. So then I was trying to get it down. And then they were like, okay, we'll do like a class on it. And then I just never got around to it. And then once I started hearing the podcast, and how well it worked for people. I had changed endocrinologist. Good for you, because that other one said stupid stuff to you. Like you're a once he's too high for a pump. I never understand that.
Yeah, I was a little bit thrown by that. And she was also the pediatric endocrinologist. But then I had changed. I think, in December, I want to say, um, I had one previously, but I didn't really see her that often because I just was avoiding all of that and didn't really like hospitals. So I didn't go. And so then I changed to one who I now love, he is so smart, super nice. And actually, like cares about what I have to say. And when I told him about your podcast, he was like, I'm gonna listen to it. And so he listens to you actually now, which is pretty cool. And so then I was like, Yeah, I really want to get on the pump. It's gonna help a lot. And he was like, yeah, definitely will. And then I started in August, and that, like, completely changed the a one c two. So it's really good. Good for you. What's your doctor's name? Scott Sperling,
Scott Benner 1:07:47
Scott, thank you for listening. Thank you for being progressive enough to lead and I have a pump. You know, you have something else in common with Omnipod. You're both there in Massachusetts. Yes, we are. I visited last year I gave a I gave a talk to the employees at the the building where some of the offices are and where they actually make the pods. And I got to take a tour of the production facility, which is fascinating, because oh, that's pretty cool. run by robots. And everything is very, very neat. Just very cool. But yeah, you guys have that in common? Yeah, you're right up there in mass, a place where it snows and becomes uninhabitable for human life.
Denae 1:08:31
Yeah. And then it's like warm the next day.
Scott Benner 1:08:34
Well, that's global warming. But but that that harder that is cold weather in, especially in the Boston area right there. It's unholy the way it comes off the water like that and just crushes the area in that cold. It's oh my gosh, I don't know how you live there to me.
Denae 1:08:53
I don't know either. I've been trying to leave for so long. Because of the cold. Yes, I cannot get myself to get out of here. But I've been trying.
Scott Benner 1:09:04
You ever heard Sam fold on the show. Sam used to be a professional baseball player and he's a coach now for the Phillies. He was up for the head coaching job in Boston just recently. And it went to someone else and I sent him a simple text that said too cold there anyway.
Unknown Speaker 1:09:22
Because
Scott Benner 1:09:23
nobody, it's just I don't know how you guys do it. It's fascinating. It's cold here. But Boston is a it's frigid there. Yeah, in the wintertime. Okay, so is there anything that we have not covered that you wish that we would? Um, I think that's all not bad. I thought you were great. I really appreciate you coming on and doing this. Yeah. Thanks for having me. Seriously. This all started with you just wanting to make fun of Kim Kardashian. And
Denae 1:09:50
I know when I saw that I was like, terrible. What a bad influence. Now that's an influencer. I do not agree with he
Scott Benner 1:09:57
sends me a picture of Kim Kardashian checking her ketones, which I guess is something people do that don't have diabetes, I probably around dieting reasons if I'm guessing something about ketosis Yeah. And, and she's, she's like the first paragraph of your emails, like, look at this. horrified, then the rest of it. And I think you were one of those people, you weren't really looking to be on the show as much as did I push you back? Or were you hoping to be on I can't tell. People are so polite when they email sometimes I think I'm not even sure if they want to be on my wife says I'm not good at reading signals from people. But
Denae 1:10:34
I just emailed and I just wanted to thank you for everything that you do on the podcast. And you're like, if you want to come on, you can like, Oh, really? Well, it was not expecting that. Okay, sure.
Scott Benner 1:10:46
About what you said that made me think that it would be a good idea to have you on and look, I was right, just like
Denae 1:10:52
I did mention. I don't know if this was it or not, but I'm planning on going to school to become an endocrinologist actually for to help with type one diabetics. I went to school for nutrition and want to specialize in like nutrition for diabetics and everything so,
Scott Benner 1:11:14
so weight to you, you want to become a doctor, or you want to do nutrition for people with type one, I'm sorry, I misunderstood.
Denae 1:11:21
I want to become a doctor. But I went to school for nutrition. And I'm going to go to back to become a dietitian, and then go to school to become an endocrinologist.
Scott Benner 1:11:36
Good luck with that. That's amazing. I need more doctors on my side. So that's a good idea. As a matter of fact, everyone listening should become an endocrinologist, we can fix this whole thing right now start talking to people differently about their, their diabetes, give them a better chance. That's all that's my marching orders for everybody today. Quit your jobs.
Denae 1:11:55
12 years and I'll be on your show again for endocrinology.
Scott Benner 1:12:00
I'll tell you what, I'll keep it going that long. Just to hear that story. I really well. I just told somebody the other day, they're like, when do you think the podcast is ending? And I was like, never if I can help it. Yeah. That's really great. And I thank you so much for coming on and doing this. I appreciate that. Thank you for having me. Of course. Hold on one second, please. I'm starting the recording back up. I don't usually do this. But wait. So you, you can speak French? So like, could you say I have type one diabetes in French? Jd I bet. Tip one. Do other words like can you say you're listening to the Juicebox Podcast? She could do a podcast. What? Wait, I talked over you do it again. Ta could la podcast Did you but that's so much fun for me for reasons that I can't put into words. You can you have full conversations in French and or does it go away if you don't use it? Yeah, I speak with my mom a lot. Um, it's a little rusty right now, just because I haven't been there in a little while. The last time I went I was in September of 2019. So yeah, so you go back to France. And then it takes a couple of days and then it's back.
Denae 1:13:20
Yeah, kind of refreshes after like a day or so. But I try to keep up with it as much as I can. I watch a lot of French shows. So just to like kind of keep up. And I speak with my mom. When I can.
Scott Benner 1:13:38
That's excellent. Yeah, I definitely would not want to lose that skill. I took French for three years in high school. And no, no French whatsoever. So myself, I believe at one point I could count the eight. Eight wasn't for me. those last two numbers. That's a 10 wait isn't enough. Nine. Yes. Cat sang? What is that? Five? Oh. This is 10 ds. Yeah, I was terrible. Like, whatever. My brain did not work that way. I literally sat through three years of French class and I couldn't speak three words of French. My brain just like, trust me the fact that I teach anybody anything is it's kind of ridiculous. grammar that will get you Oh, please. I never even got far enough into it to understand that part of it. It just does not it just I couldn't pick it up it to me math and French were the same thing. I just, I don't I don't understand things that don't. I don't know. I can't even put into words for you why I don't understand it. But I can't understand algebra. And I could not learn to speak another language. So I feel I can talk about Pre-Bolus thing though. So all right. All right. Yeah, that's the easy stuff. Right? Yeah. Just understanding when to put this in and how long to wait and when to do this, that I get the rest of it. Not so much. Okay, I can't be too long. I'm sorry. I will. I appreciate this. Thank you again. Thank you. Bye. Hey, what's the name not amazing. Today everybody round of applause. You should be clapping to it. Thanks so much to Dexcom, makers of the G six continuous glucose monitor. And the pod makers of the Omni pod dash tubeless insulin pump for sponsoring this episode. Go to Omni pod.com Ford slash juice box and dexcom.com forward slash juice box to find out more about these amazing products and to support the Juicebox Podcast. Thank you so much for listening. Don't forget there's a new show every Monday, Wednesday and Friday.
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