#1805 Keep It Cute
Diagnosed at 13 during a routine physical, Sara shares how confidence, tech, and a determined mom helped her thrive with type 1—managing injections, school, sleepovers, and teen life without missing a beat.
Companies that Support Juicebox
Key Takeaways
- Early Detection is a Blessing: Sarah was diagnosed with Type 1 diabetes at age 13 during a routine pediatrician visit with zero symptoms, allowing her family to intervene early and implement life-changing technology like the Dexcom right away.
- The MDI Choice: Despite the popularity of insulin pumps, Sarah successfully manages her diabetes with Multiple Daily Injections (MDI) using Fiasp and Tresiba because she prefers not to have extra devices attached to her body.
- Flexible Diets Over Restriction: Initial severe carb restrictions (like 30 carbs per meal) can lead to frustration and potential eating dysfunction; using proper insulin coverage for a normal diet is much more sustainable for a teenager.
- School Independence: To avoid missing critical instructional time and maintain privacy, Matilde waived mandatory school nursing services, empowering Sarah to manage her diabetes via text message check-ins.
- Parental Advocacy: Successfully navigating T1D requires parents to actively self-educate, seek out community support (like the Juice Box Podcast), and advocate for their child's normalcy.
Resources Mentioned
- Juice Cruise 2026: juiceboxpodcast.com/juicecruise
- Touched by Type 1: touchedbytype1.org
- Tandem Mobi: tandemdiabetes.com/juicebox
- Eversense 365: eversensecgm.com/juicebox
- Juice Box Podcast Private Facebook Group: Search "Juice Box Podcast, type one diabetes" on Facebook
- Integrated Diabetes Services: Consulting resource utilized by the family (Gary Scheiner / Tavia).
- Wrong Way Recording: wrongwayrecording.com
Welcome and Introductions
Scott Benner Friends, we're all back together for the next episode of the Juice Box podcast. Welcome.
Sarah Hi, everyone. My name's Sarah, and I'm a junior in high school.
Matilde This is her mother. I'm Matilde Fiddler, and I'm so grateful to be on the podcast with you today, Scott.
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Scott Benner If you're looking for community around type one diabetes, check out the juice box podcast private Facebook group. Juice box podcast, type one diabetes. But everybody is welcome. Type one, type two, gestational, loved ones, it doesn't matter to me. If you're impacted by diabetes and you're looking for support, comfort, or community, check out Juice Box Podcast, type one diabetes on Facebook.
Scott Benner Nothing you hear on the Juice Box podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise. Always consult a physician before making any changes to your health care plan.
Scott Benner The episode you're about to listen to was sponsored by Touched by Type one. Go check them out right now on Facebook, Instagram, and, of course, at touchedbytype1.org. Check out that programs tab when you get to the website to see all the great things that they're doing for people living with type one diabetes, touchedbytype1.org.
Scott Benner Today's episode is also sponsored by the Tandem Mobi system, which is powered by Tandem's newest algorithm, Control IQ Plus technology. Tandem Mobi has a predictive algorithm that helps prevent highs and lows and is now available for ages two and up. Learn more and get started today at tandemdiabetes.com/juicebox.
Scott Benner The podcast is also sponsored today by Eversense three sixty five, the only one year wear CGM. That's one insertion and one CGM a year. One CGM, one year. Not every ten or fourteen days. Ever since cgm.com/juicebox.
Sarah Hi, everyone. My name's Sarah, and I'm a junior in high school.
Scott Benner And somebody else is with us. Who else is here?
Matilde This is her mother. I'm Matilde Fiddler. I'm a Miami native, and I'm so grateful to be on the podcast with you today, Scott.
Scott Benner Matilde, did you make Sarah come on or did she want to?
Sarah I actually asked to come on.
Scott Benner Okay. Cool. Alright. Well, let's figure out why all this is happening. Who should we talk to first? Well, who has diabetes? I do. Sarah does. How old how old were you when you were diagnosed?
Sarah I was 13 when I was diagnosed. I was going into the summer of, I was in my summer going into eighth grade and, yeah, that's when I was diagnosed.
Scott Benner And now you're a junior? Yes. Okay. How would you say it's going when you think about your diabetes? Like, what's where do you think you're at?
Sarah I think I'm very controlled. I also put a lot of hard work to control my numbers, but I'm really lucky because I haven't had any other health complications come out of it. And overall, I'd say I'm pretty stable and I'm able to, like, live the life that I lived before being diagnosed.
The Diagnosis Story
Scott Benner Yeah. Okay. What do you remember about being diagnosed, mom? Like, how did it come on? What what what did you see first?
Matilde What happened was I took the kids because I have another daughter. So both of my daughters, I my other daughter is 14 and Sarah's 16 right now. I took them to the annual visit at the pediatrician, and it happened to be that that day, we were seeing a new pediatrician. And my daughter did the annual pee pee in the cup, and she came back, and she goes, your daughter no. She goes to me, let me do a finger stick. She did the finger stick, and she said immediately, your daughter has diabetes. And I said, what the fuck are you talking about? Like, shocked. Yeah. My daughter had never had one simp. Her blood sugar at that visit was two forty.
Scott Benner Okay.
Matilde She had had a bagel and, you know, prior to the going to the doctor. The reason I had moved that pediatric visit to that day is because both of my daughters were leaving to sleep away camp for three weeks in three days.
Scott Benner Sarah, did you go? No. I did not end up going. Okay. Wait. Do you remember that moment the way your mom remembers it?
Sarah I remember the same thing.
Scott Benner Yeah. Do you remember
Sarah being shocked? Going to the going to the hospital after and being really confused and nervous.
Scott Benner Confused and nervous. And, Matilda, are you married?
Matilde I am.
Scott Benner Okay. Did you call your husband right away?
Matilde I did. He too was super confused. He had to pick up my my other daughter, Sophie, and I took my daughter to the local. They suggested go straight to the ER, the pediatric Unfortunately, we knew the a nurse that has been at that institute for many, many years. So she immediately treated us like VIP. Mhmm. Immediately, they saw my daughter. When they checked her blood sugar, I think she was at that point let's call it, like, one sixty. Right? So they said they took us right away from there to meet the endocrinology team. And I was let me tell you a wreck. Like, I think about it, and I can't even believe. It was very emotional. But I wanted to come on today to tell you what a fabulous experience we had because I know so many of your listeners have had such rough diagnosis stories, and and they got so little support. And we didn't we did not have that experience. My daughter was taken by the endocrinologist. Immediately, they explained to us that she was in the honeymoon, you know, initially. And so and within two hours of being at that appointment, they put the Dexcom on her. Okay. You know?
Scott Benner How's it feel, Sarah, to hear your mom feel so emotional about all this? And have you seen that emotion from her before or since?
Sarah I haven't really seen that emotion from her since I was diagnosed. She always is super strong about it. Encourages me to be strong about it too. And I feel like a big part of me getting through this was because of my mom and all the help she gave me because she's, like, was kinda my she's still is my partner in managing this.
Scott Benner Yeah.
Sarah So I'm really grateful to her for that.
Scott Benner Do you have a similar feeling, like, when you think back on your diagnosis, or are you are you listening to her right now and thinking, wow. This is what it feels like to have a kid apparently.
Sarah No. When I think back at it, yeah, I got a little, like, upset because, like, in in the beginning, I was really confused on, like, on why me. Like, I've never had a health issue in my life.
Scott Benner Right.
Sarah Up until that point, I was, like, the healthiest person ever. So I was very confused why, like, this was showing up now. And I don't know. I was concerned about, like, if people were gonna, like, look at me differently. And, like, I remember, like, being concerned then, like, people were gonna think, like, I eat ate too much or, like, something like that because, like, there's a bunch of misconceptions with diabetes and stuff. Mhmm. But, obviously, there is, like, a difference between type one and type two.
Scott Benner Has that been an issue? Do you did you have friends or acquaintances that misunderstood your situation?
Sarah Yeah. Like, still honestly to this day, people ask me like, oh, like, you can't I mean, does that mean you can't eat sugar? Blah blah blah. Like and it gets it kind of annoys me. But I mean, honestly, it's not it's not really their fault because they just haven't been educated on the topic. So whenever something like that occurs, I take a moment to educate people.
Scott Benner Good. Okay. So you don't get upset, you just realize there's there's no way for them to know and you help. Yeah. Okay. That's awesome. Does it make you feel good, Matilda, to hear that she's having such a an even response when people talk to her like that?
Matilde I'm extremely grateful. I want you to understand and other parents to understand that that it's a very steep learning curve, and there was a lot of support. We had therapists involved from the get go. We had nutritionists involved from the get go to really help us with that steep learning curve and to give us that support that we needed so that our living life and enjoying life momentum didn't stop.
Insulin Management and Choosing MDI
Scott Benner Let's figure out how you figured all this out. So there's some education in the hospital, and then what happens? There's a is there an outpatient education after that? Do you go back to the hospital afterwards?
Matilde So what happened? Because she was so low like, her her a one c at that point of diagnosis was six point o. Mhmm. Her blood sugar, as we all know, two forty isn't that high. That's, like, on her you know, to get caught at that to be diagnosed and found out at know, when you have zero symptoms. Zero.
Scott Benner Yeah.
Matilde It's like a a blessing and and, like, like crazy how that happened.
Scott Benner That doctor's appointment was just well timed, really. Correct. Luckily. Yeah.
Matilde Correct. Uh-huh. And then, you know, they sent us home. They sent us home. They gave us the prescriptions for the insulin. They're like, don't use it yet until you need it. And, you know, so we got the insulin, the whatever at that time, I think of Humalog junior, and you're, like, staring at it, like, when am I supposed to use this?
Scott Benner Mhmm.
Matilde So what happened is she ended up getting, let's call it a month or so later, a tonsillitis. And they put her on prednisone. And that's when the party started. You know, the three hundred blood sugar. And so then we had to do the first time the insulin. I wish, and I think Sarah agrees with me, because they had us initially on a very carb strict diet, which in my opinion, can cause, like, eating dysfunction because she was on, let's call it, I think if I can recall, 30 carbs. Nothing.
Scott Benner A day?
Matilde Yeah. And we we we went we did that for, I don't know, let's call it, like, a month ish. It's a blur, but let's maybe max two months. And then finally, thank god, the prednisone thing happened. We had to introduce the insulin injections into start bringing that blood sugar down, and then she was super skinny. Imagine. And she's tall. My daughter right now is five nine.
Scott Benner Yeah.
Matilde And she weighs, like, less than a hundred and thirty pounds, you know?
Scott Benner Sarah, I have a couple of questions for you.
Sarah Yes.
Scott Benner This one might seem out of left field. Do you get tonsillitis a lot?
Sarah No. No? That was the only time I've ever gotten it. And also, mom, you said something about eating dysfunction. I just wanna make it clear. I've never had an eating disorder to those listening. And I think it was, like, 30 carbs per meal. I don't know about per day.
Scott Benner So it's interesting. The way you remember it, mom, is that her somebody told you to kind of restrict your carbs to go lower carb. Yes. Do you remember that time as particularly difficult?
Sarah Yeah. It was Yeah. Super annoying. Like, I had to watch everything I was putting in my mouth.
Scott Benner Right.
Sarah And honestly, like, looking back on it, like, I should have just been able to eat what I wanted and just given insulin for it.
Scott Benner Yeah. You didn't quite understand that at that point. And who gave
Sarah you that Honestly, what was what I don't I still don't see the purpose in
Scott Benner that. Right.
Sarah Like, what? I don't don't understand.
Scott Benner Who gave you that information?
Sarah An endocrinologist. The endocrinologist.
Scott Benner Okay. So let me ask you a question because you you said something earlier. A lot of people do this. They come on and they tell me how great their doctors are, and then they tell stories for an hour about how the information they got wasn't great. When you tell me that that you were lucky that you got started well, what does that mean to you?
Scott Benner When you think of a CGM and all the good that it brings in your life, is the first thing you think about, I love that I have to change it all the time. I love the warm up period every time I have to change it. I love that when I bump into a doorframe, sometimes it gets ripped off. I love that the adhesive kinda gets mushy sometimes when I sweat and falls off. No.
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Matilde It means to me that they gave her immediately the technology
Scott Benner Technology.
Matilde The true diagnosis. Like, there was no immediately, I knew my kid had type one. Like, how many times parents are like, I don't know what they had. They maybe they have this. So I knew right away her diagnosis.
Matilde She was introduced to to me. The Dexcom is life changing technology immediately on her body, plus I had the insulin. Now with what you're saying is true, the diabetic educator put her on that carb restrictive diet, which I agree. No good. That's where parents it's incumbent on the parents to educate themselves, and that's where you, Scott, are a blessing in my life.
Matilde I can't tell you the amount of what I how you changed the course of learning what you did with Arden and learning with the bowl beginning series listening to other parents and and type one people share their stories, that's how I learned.
Scott Benner Oh, I'm glad. That is lovely. I am so happy that you figured that out. But I wanna go back and just put a put a kind of a cherry on that other idea. You feel like you were treated well in the beginning because you got a firm correct answer as far as a diagnosis goes.
Scott Benner Someone showed you technology and didn't make you wait for it. That really is what you consider to be a great start.
Matilde Yes.
Scott Benner Yeah. Okay. Well, I I think that's valid by the way. I just wanted to, you know, I think sometimes people hear that and they think that, you know, they got some magical doctor who, you know, knew everything. But you're just saying, look, I just got a good firm, you know, foundation and a good start on all this.
Scott Benner Then you went off and found other information. So how long after her diagnosis did you think to yourself, I have to go find other information. I don't have enough to do what I need to do.
Matilde I would say very quickly. Initially, you feel very alone. Right? Because you're like and I was so grateful that I was introduced to other mothers in my area, in the Miami area, a group of three ladies. I could message them.
Matilde And one of the questions that I that I found so impactful that I or or realizations that I found so impactful was one day I texted a mom and I said, wait a minute. This is a disease that the goalpost is constantly moving. And she goes, bingo. Yeah. That was a hard pill to swallow.
Scott Benner Right. Right. Did not to think you couldn't just figure it out, write it down, and keep doing it. It that it was gonna keep changing. And did you pass that on to Sarah?
Scott Benner Like, as you learn things about it, how do you remember your mom bringing you back information, and were you looking for information on your own, or were you counting on her?
Sarah Honestly, I counted a lot on my mom. And I remember she started listening to your podcast, and she would tell me things about it, and we used some of your tips and whatever, etcetera. And that really started to help us. And also, I met the mothers that my mom was referring to earlier. I met, like, their daughters who were younger than me.
Sarah But it was nice to see that other people were going through the same thing I was, so that was really helpful.
Scott Benner Okay. So your mom brought you information and you found other people in a similar situation and made you feel a little more comfortable while but maybe while you were figuring it out, there was a a feeling that you could get to some sort of an answer because those girls were doing well. Is that the idea?
Sarah Yeah. Since I saw them doing well, I knew I was gonna be fine. And honestly, I was fine. So it it just brought a lot of comfort.
Scott Benner Okay. Awesome. And you use what now? You have a CGM, I heard Dexcom, but do you have a pump?
Sarah I use the Dexcom g seven and FIASP multiple injections and Tresiba at night.
Scott Benner Okay. Oh, so you're using pens?
Matilde Correct.
Scott Benner Awesome. And you've been doing that for how long?
Sarah I it was ever since I've
Scott Benner Been diagnosed.
Sarah Started using the injections Okay. After I had the prednisone.
Scott Benner Tell me why you don't have a pump.
Sarah I don't like having multiple devices on my body.
Scott Benner Okay. So just it's about real estate for you and not hanging more stuff?
Sarah Yes. Correct. And I'm doing fine with the injection. So if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Scott Benner Yeah. Yeah. How are you doing? What's your a one c right now?
Sarah Well, actually, in my last blood work, they forgot to do my a one c.
Scott Benner How is that possible, sir? What the heck?
Sarah Yeah. I'm not really sure.
Matilde But on
Sarah the Dexcom, it says, like, about about 6.2.
Scott Benner Good for you. That's awesome. Do you have a lot of lows or protracted highs that you can't get down for hours at a time, or is that not your day usually?
Sarah Like, not really, but I want normally, when I have a high, I can get it down pretty quickly. Mhmm. It just gets more challenging when it's at night. If I've eaten something carb heavy or, like, that'll hit later in the night, that's when it gets a little tricky. Yeah.
Sarah So I have another I also have another insulin for that. What is it called?
Matilde Scott, I can't remember.
Scott Benner Is it the inhaler?
Sarah Come to I think it's something with an l. Lyonjev or something.
Scott Benner Loomjev? Yes. Okay. So you're using
Sarah It's an older insulin. Correct?
Scott Benner No. No. It's a newer one. Loomjev and Loomjev and and Fiaspora, the two faster acting insulins. Why do you have both?
Scott Benner Is it not that maybe? Lispro?
Matilde May I interject? Please. It's, the one she uses for nighttime, what and and I I have to think about the name.
Sarah Lantus? Novalin. Novolin. Alright.
Scott Benner Well, who set you up with that?
Matilde Integrated diabetes, which was also introduced to us by you, Scott Mhmm. Through the the, you know, the amazing Gary Shiner. I also use their services for when we need additional support and education and and normalizing. Yeah. We use Tavia.
Scott Benner Oh, sure. Oh, you know, I'm gonna see her in a couple of weeks.
Matilde She told me to tell you hello because we met with we talked with her yesterday.
Scott Benner Nice. Yeah. She and I are doing a private event together in, like, two weeks, maybe three weeks.
Matilde So she suggested let's say Sarah goes out to party, you know, and then she eats late at night and then goes to sleep. She suggested the Novalin because it's a slower acting insulin that doesn't have a quick onset and it takes a long it stays in the body longer. Mhmm. Am I saying is it the Novalin? Am am I right about that one?
Scott Benner I mean, you're asking me what you're doing?
Matilde No. I think I we don't do it that much. Okay. It's occasional. You know, because she doesn't go out at night all the time and eat late at night all the time.
Scott Benner So what did they give it to you for? Because it's
Matilde Because it's slower acting and it stays in the body longer. So if you eat, let's call it, like, a pizza late at night, it can help with her control. We don't do it all the time. Mhmm. But the cool thing with it is that you can get it at Walmart with no prescription.
Matilde It's super strange because it's an old
Scott Benner It's it's r insulin. Right? Novalin r? You That's what you're talking about? Regular.
Matilde Think that's what it is. Yeah. We don't use it that much, obviously. Look. We don't even remember the name.
Scott Benner But if you get a sticky hi, Sarah, you use that?
Sarah Yes.
Navigating School and Independence
Scott Benner Okay. Sarah, when your mom says going out to party, she means watching Disney princess films and eating Cheetos. Right? What does she talk to
Matilde about?
Scott Benner Yeah. Yeah. Are you in Miami?
Sarah Yes.
Scott Benner Oh, is it hard to live in Miami and be a kid?
Sarah No. It's great.
Scott Benner It's great? I was just there.
Sarah Really?
Scott Benner Last year and again this year, I'm taking a group of listeners on a cruise in June, and it goes out of the Miami Port. We're using a different cruise ship this year than we used last year, and the cruise company wanted me to see it. So I went and did a cruise with my wife right before Christmas. So we were in Miami for the night then went to the port and headed out and then came back that way. So I didn't get to see a whole lot of it but that's nice place.
Scott Benner So and I know people who have lived there. But the partying is is it's Miami. Right? Like, you're out. There's get togethers.
Scott Benner You've gotta kinda deal with things.
Matilde It's Yeah.
Sarah It's more like casual get togethers
Scott Benner Mhmm.
Sarah That sometimes go late. So if if I end up having I I probably end up getting a little hungry at the end.
Scott Benner So little meal. Yeah.
Sarah Yeah. I hear Yeah. Exactly.
Scott Benner When you're doing that. Okay. When you carry your stuff, how do you carry, like, a pen? Is it just in your purse or what do you do?
Sarah I have, like, a huge black no. It's not huge. It's this black pouch with a bunch of compartments where I keep my juice, my, Gevo hypo pen, and my main insulin
Scott Benner Mhmm.
Sarah And a little sharps box and just all my supplies, my alcohol pads, my needles, everything. So that's my pouch for school. And if I'm going somewhere nicer, I'll just put my stuff in a purse.
Scott Benner Okay. And you pre bolus your meals or no? What does the fiasse work fast enough
Matilde for you?
Sarah I can.
Scott Benner What does that mean, Sarah?
Sarah In the morning before school, it's I can pre bolus.
Scott Benner Mhmm.
Sarah At school, I cannot pre bolus. It's very difficult because I don't know what I'm gonna be eating.
Scott Benner Okay. And you don't wanna shoot twice. Like, you don't wanna give yourself a little bit, then figure out what you're eating and give yourself the rest? Or do
Sarah you Honestly, that might not be a bad idea.
Scott Benner Yeah. So what if you don't mind injecting, then I would pick an amount of carbs that you know for sure you're gonna eat, hit that as a pre bolus, and then when you settle on food, just put the rest
Matilde of it in.
Sarah That's very smart.
Scott Benner Thank you.
Sarah I'm gonna do that.
Scott Benner Alright. Try that. See how
Sarah that works. Have a lot of trouble keeping my well, not a lot of trouble, but I typically spike when I'm in school.
Scott Benner Yeah. Because you're probably bolusing while you're eating. Right? Yeah. Yeah.
Scott Benner Oh, that's a good see if that works for you.
Sarah Try it.
Scott Benner That's a tip that parents use for little kids because they never be it's similar idea. They little kids sometimes sit down and don't eat. And so people are like, well, I can't pre bolus because sometimes the kid doesn't eat anything or they take a couple bites. And I I ended up saying, like, years ago, like, there must be something, you know, they're gonna eat. And I remember mom saying, like, delete at least five carbs.
Scott Benner I'm like, well, pre bolus five carbs then. And then get the insulin on your side, get it moving, helping you, and then put the rest in later. That's all. Well, good for you. Well, I guess we're we're fixing the problem.
Scott Benner No other autoimmune in the family? Thyroid, celiac, anything?
Matilde No. Scott, my father did have diabetes. He was diagnosed in his, let's call it, late thirties, early forties. I always remember seeing needles, syringes, insulin in my home as a child, young, you know, teenager, but I never understood. I never knew anything about blood sugar.
Matilde I never knew even the range. I never even knew what insulin did. My father has passed approximately, like, five years ago, So I was you know? And he did pass from diabetic related complications that eventually resulted in congestive heart disease.
Scott Benner Mhmm.
Matilde My instinct because I would go with him to a lot of doctor's appointments, and I have, like, little memories that pop in my head. Yeah. Think my father had type one and a half. Can I confirm? No.
Matilde But it was like my father was an athlete, always exercised, always jogged, and so who knows? I will I'll never really know.
Scott Benner You're never gonna know. Yeah.
Matilde He was uncontrolled due to numerous things. The technology that it was available at the time due to his personality that he loved the wine, the cheese, you know, the meat, whatever, like, the stuff, the good life.
Scott Benner How how old was he when he passed?
Matilde 70.
Scott Benner Okay. Yeah. I mean, it's hard to know. Right? Like, if he if he was misdiagnosed or I mean, what was the management like?
Scott Benner Just insulin.
Matilde For him? Yeah. You know, I recall never did he ever in my life when we would go out to eat, never did he have insulin on his person. He would check the blood sugar at home in the morning and it at night. My father loved juice.
Matilde Imagine.
Scott Benner Like Fruit like, just fruit juices, orange juice, grapefruit, that kind of thing.
Matilde Juice. All the juices.
Scott Benner Just all the juices.
Matilde You know, which is like, hello, the worst thing ever. Yeah.
Scott Benner Okay. Hey. You talked about in your note about grief, and I was wondering, you know, was that for both of you or, mom, was it just for you? What was the what what happened? How did you work through it?
Matilde Yes. You know, as it relates to there definitely was grief for my daughter feeling because, you know, I don't want her I didn't want her to carry that responsibility and burden. Mhmm. So that is very difficult. But with that being said, I'm a person that I can be brokenhearted, super but I keep it moving, and I keep it cute.
Matilde I keep it moving, and I keep it good. And you I can be devastated, but I I get up, I do my hair, I go get dressed nice, and I'm like, that's how I am.
Scott Benner Yeah. Sarah, is that how you see your mom? Is it, like, surprising to you to know that she experienced grief after your diagnosis, or were you not even aware of that?
Sarah No. It's it's not surprising to hear now, but because it's true. I guess she was going through that kind of thing, but she did keep it moving and she kept it cute.
Scott Benner So And how about you, Sarah? Did you feel grief?
Sarah Yeah. I remember being a little sad.
Scott Benner Stuck to you for a while. What do you think helped it go away? Time or something someone said or did?
Sarah Maybe, like, time, honestly. Because when you first get diagnosed, it's just a big shock and, like, my mom spoke about earlier, it's a big learning curve. So once you learn about those things and I feel like a big part of this disease is trial and error.
Scott Benner Mhmm.
Sarah And you have to go with your gut a lot in this in this disease.
Scott Benner Yeah.
Sarah It's kind of like a number game, honestly. And maybe your doctor will tell you to stick to a specific formula, but I'm just gonna tell you right now, you can't always listen to your doctor. Like, this sounds horrible, but you have to do what's best for you as well. Like, if that means giving some extra insulin, you're gonna have to do it.
Scott Benner Yeah. You think maybe that's a starting point and they're hoping you'll figure the rest of that out? Or do you think that they don't know that there should be like, what's your experience been when you've gone back to your doctor and said, hey. Look. I gave myself more insulin here or I've changed my settings.
Scott Benner Do they generally seem supportive of that?
Sarah Yes. They do. But I'm in a different situation than some of their other patients because I think the normal how many times a year do I have to go visit their mom?
Matilde She, because of her well controlled numbers and and her responsibility, she normally only goes to the Endo now in person once a year.
Scott Benner Yeah. That's what our
Matilde We do the labs. They come to my house. I lay you know, I pay a little money, and the lady comes to my house and pulls her blood. And we do the diabetic educator appointments virtually
Scott Benner Mhmm.
Matilde For the most part. But Sarah's also a youth ambassador through breakthrough type one, so we see her endo, like, at events too. You know? Yeah. I have to tell you something, Scott.
Matilde This is the most important thing that I want you to to impart to the parents. You taught me what to do when you send your kid to school. Right?
Scott Benner Okay.
Matilde So when my daughter was diagnosed, the first thing she told me was this, mommy, I cannot be like this one girl that goes to my school that has a nurse walking behind her, carrying her book bag, and giving her snacks. She was like, I beg you. She was, like, petrified.
Scott Benner That that was her situation?
Matilde Correct. Yeah. So I was, like, scrambling. So I goo you know, I looked in your podcast, like, what to do in school. So I learned from you that when your daughter was a baby, I don't even know, second grade or third grade, you're like, forget it.
Matilde We're gonna handle this between my kid and I. We don't need the nurse. We don't need anybody else. We got it. So I said to myself, okay.
Matilde Immediately, when it was time for her to inject herself, I'm like, it. You have to do it. I'll text you. We'll text each other. You're going out?
Matilde Text me. Mhmm. Because the biggest thing that I learned from you, Scott, is that you cannot take away the kid from the classroom because they they miss instructional time.
Scott Benner Yeah. No kidding.
Matilde And the public school my kid was at at the time, the rule was if I signed up for nursing services, she would have to go to the nurse three times a day, in the morning, in lunch, and at night. I mean, you know, in the afternoon. Mhmm. Who has time for that?
Scott Benner Yeah. No. You you miss a lot of a lot of instruction that way and and it can you can easily just create a gap there. Sarah, the thing your mom's talking about is that when my daughter was in second grade, there was a prescribed time that she had to go see the nurse and it was in preparation for for eating. But what no one realized is she was leaving every day as the math lesson was being taught.
Scott Benner And it's just the the way the teacher had the day set up, she'd hand out the math lesson and just a couple of moments later, Arden would have to leave. A timer would go off on her phone. She'd stand up and leave. And Arden was missing the direction every day for the math lesson and she had fallen pretty far behind to the point where we actually we thought, like, I mean, honestly, Sarah, we thought she was just a little stupid. You know what I mean?
Scott Benner And, like, like, because it had gotten pretty far out of hand. We're like, oh, Arden's not good at math. And luckily and she lived the whole year like that, second grade. And then luckily in third grade, her her second grade teacher did that thing where she leveled up with the whole class. So the whole class had the same teacher two years in a row.
Scott Benner And then the math lesson moved to a different time in the schedule. And early on in third grade, the teacher called me and she said, oh my god, Scott. She's like, Arden's not bad at math. I figured out what happened and she told me. And it took Arden a while to catch up and she did, but it still sticks to her.
Scott Benner Like, she's 21 right now. She'll be 22 this summer. And no matter how good she is at school and she's very well and she's fine with math and everything, you can still see in the back of her head, she thinks she's not good at math. Like, it's a thing that stuck to her after all that time. So not only did it slow her down in second and third grade, but it it impacted her moving forward.
Scott Benner And, you know, you just you can't miss school. Like, you don't know what it is you're gonna miss exactly. I'm glad that that worked out for you. So you guys just texted each other and handled it that way.
Matilde Yeah. We texted each other. The school made me when I selected to be the five twenty nine where she would get extended time for tests and so forth, they said to me, well, if you waive the nursing services I opted to waive the nursing services because I didn't want my kid to go three times a day to the nurse. Yeah. And I told them they're like, well, if there's an emergency, I said, you know what?
Matilde If there's an emergency, call 911 before you call me. Treat my kid like another kid.
Scott Benner That's exactly what I told them. It didn't mean I don't want the nurse if she falls and breaks her arm or she has a seizure or something like that. I I want the nurse. I'm just saying I don't think we need her to be there on a schedule constantly. Like, we can take care of bolusing for food and stuff like that.
Scott Benner So yeah. Yeah. So you basically just did what the what I was talking about in the podcast.
Matilde Correct, Scott. That's why I love you.
Scott Benner Like And it worked.
Matilde Yes. It works. Yes.
Scott Benner Why did you wanna come on the podcast, Sarah?
Sarah Because I wanted to show other parents and even if other kids are listening that you can still be perfectly normal and have this annoying disease but still live your day to day life and enjoy life.
Scott Benner That's awesome.
Sarah And I feel like a common misconception when you have this disease is that you have to stop your life and take a moment to learn everything, which is true. You do. But as you're learning, you can keep going.
Scott Benner Yeah.
Sarah Like, keep it moving. Keep the train moving. The train doesn't stop and it doesn't it's the train is not gonna stop for diabetes. So
Scott Benner Yeah. That's awesome. I mean, you got a great attitude about it. I I'm not gonna lie to you. I think that setting you up to be you know, to have some control over yourself at school goes a long way to getting yourself, you know, your self esteem and and confidence rolling in the right direction.
Scott Benner I mean, you're obviously having good outcomes. You understand how to use your insulin. That's, I think, a big part of the whole thing. You're confident. I were you were you a confident person before this?
Sarah Yes. Yeah. I think I'm confident by nature.
Scott Benner Yeah. Being tall doesn't hurt either, Sarah?
Sarah And also, I'd like to add on to the nurse thing. That was, like, obviously one of my biggest fears because there was a girl in my school who was constantly being followed around and I was not about to be that girl. Mhmm. And also, as one of my electives at school, I would help in the office and that's where the nurse was. So I would encounter her whenever I went to my little office help and she spoke about some this other girl and was telling the other office ladies about her health situation.
Sarah She was diabetic.
Scott Benner Mhmm.
Sarah And that's just a violation of privacy. So that was even more of another like, that was that was just another reason not to use this woman's services.
Scott Benner So you're there horrified listening to her spill the tea on somebody else's life. Exactly. Yeah. And you're like, woah. If you knew me, would you be talking about me like this?
Sarah Exactly.
Scott Benner Oh, so you're trying to keep your stuff to yourself.
Matilde Mhmm.
Scott Benner Do you have other people you can talk about it with though? Do you have some close friends who understand? Like, if you were with a group of girls and and you, you know, got dizzy and you couldn't help yourself, does somebody know what to do?
Sarah Yes. My close friends know what to do in that case. Like, if they see me feeling bad, like, I feel like the fur the first instinct would be, oh, do need to eat something? Or if it's really bad, they know to use the pen, like the Gevo Kypo pen.
Scott Benner Good. Good.
Sarah But I have a good supportive group of friends who look out for me.
Scott Benner Awesome. And you sound like a reasonable young person, which I'm happy about. You would never drink or do drugs. No. Is that right, Sarah?
Scott Benner Yeah. Right? And and if if your mom wasn't here, you'd say the same thing?
Sarah No. I would definitely say the same because, honestly, with diabetes, you just have you have to be even more careful with your health.
Scott Benner You're not looking for extra problems?
Sarah Correct.
Looking Ahead: College and the Future
Scott Benner Yeah. Or to make this harder. Right?
Sarah Mhmm.
Scott Benner Yeah. Okay. Very nice. Do you plan on going away to college?
Sarah I do.
Scott Benner Where are you gonna go? That's an interesting thing. Like, when you live in a place where everybody's trying to get to it, where do you think to go when you're leaving? You know what I mean? Like, a lot of people are like, oh, I wanna go to Miami to go to college.
Scott Benner Like, you're there. So
Sarah Oh, exactly. Yeah. Honestly, I feel like that is just is one of the best universities out there. And if it wasn't two minutes away from my house, catch me there.
Scott Benner Well, can I share something with you? Sure. My daughter said to us recently when I was leaving high school, she's like, I thought the worst thing that could happen to me is that I'd be one of those people who went to school five minutes from my house. And so I went to this place and then she switched and went somewhere else and she and then eventually, she's like, I'm just gonna come home and finish up at home. And she's like, I don't know if that's the right answer for everybody.
Scott Benner She's like, but I do wish I wouldn't have felt so embarrassed by the idea of looking close to home. So, I don't know. Maybe maybe that won't be your finding. She's Well pretty happy with it now.
Sarah Oh, that's so nice to hear.
Matilde But you don't think it's
Scott Benner of here.
Matilde Yeah. Yeah. I don't
Sarah think it's an embarrassment thing. I just think like, I wanna discover something new and
Scott Benner Okay.
Sarah Get out of my comfort zone a little bit. And I feel like I'm not gonna be able to do that in my same neighborhood with the same circle of people
Scott Benner Mhmm.
Sarah With, like, the same support system around me. Like, I feel like I have to step out a little bit.
Scott Benner I hear you.
Sarah And I feel like I've I've worked so hard and, like, I don't know. I want something different.
Scott Benner You're a good student? Yeah. Yeah. What is it you're interested in?
Sarah I'm interested in possibly studying communications or journalism. I'm the editor in chief of my school newspaper.
Scott Benner Nice.
Sarah And maybe or maybe going into law someday. I'm not really sure. But that's the areas I'm interested in.
Scott Benner Where do you think you're gonna look at school? Like, far mom, how far away is okay?
Matilde Yeah. Needs to be a plane, a nonstop flight easy. Mhmm. East Coast for sure. That's it.
Scott Benner Yeah. What about the weather, Sarah? Are you gonna go somewhere cold?
Sarah I mean, maybe.
Scott Benner Oh my god. I just wanna live somewhere warm so badly. I I would
Sarah Where do you live?
Scott Benner In New Jersey.
Matilde It's We can swap.
Scott Benner Yeah. You wanna come oh, you wanna be close to the city. Maybe. I'm a fifty minute train ride from Manhattan. Okay.
Scott Benner Listen to her laughing. You can't let her out of the house. She's gonna Sarah, you're gonna be a problem when you get out of there, aren't you? Listen to her laughing, but you can't let her leave, Patoni. Well,
Sarah I'm gonna be such a problem.
Scott Benner Oh my gosh. Well, that's awesome. And what do you have? Two more years?
Sarah I'm finishing well, I'm in the third quarter of my junior year. Mhmm. And then I have my senior year and then I'll be out.
Scott Benner Okay. Very nice. That's awesome. Hey. Listen, I've been wondering this the whole time.
Scott Benner It's really not apropos of anything and has nothing to do with your story, but your mom speaks more than one language. Right?
Sarah Yes.
Scott Benner Yeah. Do you?
Sarah Yes. I do.
Scott Benner Okay. Matilda, I'm sorry. Are you first generation or second?
Matilde No. I was born here in The United States. Actually, I was born in Virginia, but I've lived in Coral Gables in my whole life since I was five years old.
Scott Benner Okay. Okay. Because I was gonna I have a a friend of my daughter's her mom's first generation from Italy, and she talks a lot about the difficulty she has, like, because her mom struggles with some things, like, you know, language sometimes or but you guys don't have that issue.
Matilde No. My my family, my mother was American from The United States and my father was Colombian from Medellin, Colombia.
Scott Benner Oh. Oh, Mhmm. He hooked that mom. Is your mom still alive? Is she okay?
Matilde No. My parents have both deceased. Both deceased. My mother predeceased my father by, like, seven months.
Scott Benner Oh, gosh. Oh, I'm so sorry.
Matilde Yeah. Thank you.
Scott Benner Yeah. Sarah, can I ask a weird question? Is it weird to hear your mother say, my dad passed away, I think, five years ago? Does it make you feel like, oh my gosh, is there gonna be a time in life when I don't remember exactly when my parents left? Is that or is that too deep or you're young?
Scott Benner I don't know if that hit you or not when she said that. I I don't want you to cry. You'll be like, no. I'm thinking about it now though. Thanks a lot.
Scott Benner But but but but, like, I my mom passed away, I told you. That's why I asked, and, like, I'm starting to lose the concept of how long it's been difficult.
Matilde Yeah. No. And I'm so sorry for your loss Thank you. Scott.
Scott Benner Thank you. But, Sarah, back to my question. Do you have, like, a feeling for, like, time? Is that something or are you just so young you do not think about that like that?
Sarah No. I I I do have a feeling of time. I feel like, obviously, I was diagnosed. It's almost gonna be four years, but I feel like it's it's crazy to think because I I can't believe time has flown by that fast.
Scott Benner That fast.
Sarah Not even diabetes related. Like, I can't believe that I'm a junior in high school and starting to look at where I'm gonna go to college. Like, it feels unreal.
Scott Benner Right. No. For sure. Do you date? No.
Scott Benner No? When you think about dating, do you think about the diabetes as well?
Sarah Not really. No. Because I don't date.
Scott Benner You feel like I don't need any of that problem. But is that because you can't find you you're just not interested in it right now? You're busy with your other stuff?
Sarah Yeah. I'm, like, busy with my my own life.
Scott Benner Okay. And you don't wanna bring somebody else into it and and then you have to give time to something or somebody else. Is that right?
Sarah Yeah. I guess I'm just protecting my peace.
Scott Benner Yeah. You're telling me there's a lot of crazy people at that school. You can't find one that you think is normal? Listen, I love it when she laughs when she doesn't wanna answer between you. That's my favorite part of Sarah.
Sarah I think everything is meant to happen for a reason. And when it's the right time, it'll be the right time.
Scott Benner And you won't have trouble when when that time comes. You won't have trouble sharing your diabetes with somebody else? No. Okay. It's not a thing you'll wanna keep private?
Sarah I don't think so.
Scott Benner Okay. So it's interesting. So you don't your problem with, an insulin pump isn't that somebody will say it. It's that it's it literally is that it's on you. Yeah.
Scott Benner So you don't mind do you inject in public? Do you do people see you inject
Matilde your insulin?
Sarah I do inject in public.
Scott Benner Okay. Yeah. Okay. That makes sense. Alright.
Scott Benner Isn't it great that she's not dating?
Matilde You know, she can my kids can they don't have a curfew. They can go out. They're they're I always know where they are. They always call me, text me. You know, the culture here is, you know, in in Miami, we to is to enjoy life, go out, be with your friends, have a good time.
Matilde She's super responsible. If she wanted to date somebody, she's more than allowed, of course. But she's very busy with working out, studying with her friends. Yeah. She's very busy.
Scott Benner Do you see what your mom's doing? It's genius. She's not holding on tight so you don't feel restricted, and therefore, you don't feel like you have to, like, push back. Exactly. Did you know she was doing that to you?
Sarah Like, not really.
Scott Benner No. No. You know, Matilda, how did you figure it out? Were you were did your parents treat you the same way or did they did they try to restrict you when you rebelled?
Matilde No. No. No. No. No. I had a boyfriend my whole life.
Matilde Always. Always. But that was just how it was. I always had a little boyfriend, and I thought it was I think it's super healthy and super nice. Yeah.
Matilde You know, you get and then you end up graduating and getting a great husband like what happened to me.
Scott Benner Very nice.
Matilde But I will tell you something. I wanna tell you this, Scott
Scott Benner Yeah.
Matilde So the parents know. My kid remember she missed the sleepaway camp when she was diagnosed because she was supposed to leave in three weeks. Right. Right. The sleepaway camp, they don't have diabetic kids.
Matilde Right?
Scott Benner Mhmm.
Matilde So the next year came and I was like, oh my god. Are we gonna send her? Because my young kid my youngest wanted to go too. I had to do a lot of mental gymnastics and we had to do a lot of conference calls. We did like conference calls with the camp.
Matilde Like, I pushed myself and I pushed Sarah. She was a mom. I don't think I wanna go. And I was like, you're going.
Scott Benner Because
Matilde a mom that I met, a type one mom that has two type one kids in in this Miami area, she told me, if you were gonna do it before diabetes, you gotta do it after. So I pushed myself, you know, pins and needles shaking, but you're going. Of course, the camp made the exception to allow her to have the cell phone, which, you know, these camps are cell phone free, but she has to keep it. So that's why, you know, in preparation for if she wanted to leave her house. Scott, I never I mean, I've when I tell I've lived in Miami.
Matilde I went to undergraduate school here and graduate school here. I didn't move out of my house until I was 28, until I bought my own little apartment. Like, I'm a, like, a home girl. Like, you know?
Scott Benner Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Move you're moving slowly. You're doing things very specifically.
Scott Benner Yeah. Yeah.
Matilde And so I wanted to just for her to have the tools, like, okay. If you wanna go, go. But, you know, get some practice, you know.
Scott Benner So you're not in any rush to leave either? Sarah, like, you think it's possible you'll go to college then come back home?
Sarah I think so. Yeah. Definitely.
Scott Benner I mean, listen, you're gonna need to save some money. This stuff ain't cheap. Yeah. Is that a thing you think about? Like, my my daughter talks about that sometimes, like, how do I make sure I can pay for my health insurance as an adult when I'm by myself and everything?
Scott Benner Is that something that's entered into your mind yet? You're a little young. You might not have.
Sarah Not really.
Scott Benner Yeah. I wouldn't have thought about it either. Don't think at your age.
Sarah I I, like, see the price of things nowadays. It's crazy. So I I just know I'm gonna have to work really hard in general.
Scott Benner Yeah. It is true. Keep making good decisions and moving forward and stuff comes together.
Matilde Absolutely. And my daughters are have faith in God and they put, you know, put God first to make good decisions. Yes. Absolutely. She's gonna be fine Yeah.
Matilde One day at a time.
Scott Benner Sarah, if you're if you're a person, like your mom describes who, you know, has a religious belief in holding, is there a feeling you ever think about like why did I get this?
Sarah Oh, definitely.
Scott Benner What have you figured out so far when you mull that over?
Sarah So, yeah, first when I was diagnosed, I was obviously very confused and I always thought why why did why do I have this? Why why didn't why me? And honestly, even on the hard days, I still feel that way sometimes, but you go through like ups and downs. Some days are harder than others, and it's hard because sometimes when you're having a hard day you see others having like an easy day, but they probably have issues in their life that you don't know about, but this is just the issue I have to carry with me for the rest of my life. Hard to accept at first, but now I know that I I guess I know it was meant to happen to me Mhmm.
Sarah And I think it's made me into a stronger person.
Scott Benner I bet it is. What constitutes a hard day?
Sarah Probably like the censor being, like, all messed up
Scott Benner Okay.
Sarah Or, like, a hard night.
Scott Benner We have to put in more extra effort or technology doesn't work the way you expect it to. Well, you know what? I I know this is not a thing you have context for, but I've spoken to people who've been living with diabetes for all different lengths of time and I I'm I'm happy that the that what constitutes a hard day for you is that your sensor didn't act right or that you had a blood sugar, you had to fight with a lecture longer because that is such a better better situation for people with diabetes. And and it makes me excited for what, you know, what a hard day will sound like ten years from now. Do you ever think about, like, the algorithms that are available in the automated systems and how they might help you overnight?
Scott Benner Like, do you ever think, like, oh, maybe I should just get a pump?
Sarah No. Not really. Because I I have my centers get faulty a lot, I'd say. Mhmm. So it tells me I'm low a lot when I'm actually not low, and it'll just mess up my numbers.
Scott Benner Possibly. Yeah. I it it is part of it for sure. It it doesn't end up being as impactful as you think, but I just wondered if you ever thought about, like, well, maybe this thing, you know, if I'm asleep at two in the morning and my blood sugar starts to drift up, this thing will push it back down and take care of it without me having to wake up. See?
Scott Benner Or if you try to get low, it can stop you from getting low so it doesn't happen as often if it is happening. Are you getting do
Sarah you get low overnight ever? Not like, not really.
Scott Benner Okay. Are you more higher when it's an overnight issue?
Sarah Yes.
Scott Benner Okay. And how often does that happen?
Sarah How often am I high overnight?
Matilde I would say, you know, let's call it a few nights a month. Mhmm. Also, Scott, there two reasons she doesn't want to use a pump.
Scott Benner Okay.
Matilde Number one is because the amount of insulin she uses.
Scott Benner Small
Matilde enough. Uses, like, her basal is very low. Her carb ratio is, like, for 10 carbs, one unit. Yeah. Her insulin needs maybe are a little low for, let's call it, for the regular Omnipod.
Matilde Mhmm. Number two is because she doesn't want it on her body. For me, she doesn't want people to see it. Yeah. And plus, she likes to keep you know, those those things irritate the body.
Matilde They irritate the skin. We've done a lot of things. We do a a patch under the Dexcom, and we do then we put the Dexcom on. We know. We treat the skin.
Matilde We put a patch. Then we put the Dexcom. Then we put another patch. We have, like, a whole system to protect her skin. So that's, like, another thing.
Matilde You know? Yeah. And then here, you're you know, they're in the bikini in the in the small clothes. So it's like
Scott Benner Just not looking for extra listen. I don't not understand. I I'm just I was just wondering if she'd thought about, like, the idea of an algorithm being helpful to her. That's
Matilde all. Sounds fabulous.
Scott Benner Yeah.
Matilde Like, I think if her body needed it, and I think she would do it.
Scott Benner K. Yeah. I mean, you you you don't know. Like, she could also do this. You know, Sarah, you might do injections your whole life and just be like, hey.
Scott Benner I'm great at this and it works for me. That'd be awesome too, you know. I'm not saying there's a right or wrong way. I was just wondering. Have I skipped anything?
Scott Benner Missed anything at all? Is there anything we forgot to talk about or something you wanted to talk about? I wanna make sure I don't miss anything because there's two of you and it's a little more confusing for
Matilde me. Ultimately, I think the most important thing is as a parent, you're the one that has to advocate for your kid. You're the one that needs to get educated and learn how to really manage this condition because the diabetic educator that you see three to four times a year for max thirty minutes to an hour, they can help, but they can't manage the day to day. You gotta figure that stuff out on your own.
Scott Benner Yeah.
Matilde And that's where your podcast is. So what you've done for the type one community is like, congratulations. You know? Thank you. I really, really appreciate you and and and what you've done for our community.
Scott Benner Well, that's very kind of you, and it's my pleasure. I very much enjoy making the podcast. So, you don't really have to thank me for it, but but I I will accept your thanks and Yeah. And I will carry them throughout my day. I'm just very happy.
Scott Benner Like to hear you talk about, you know, some of the things you've had success with and how things are working for you guys anyway. What is my last question for Sarah? I have one last question. You're so young. I don't know if it's if it's too early, but do you ever think about having kids?
Sarah Yeah. I do.
Scott Benner You do? And is that a thing that has changed for you since you have diabetes or has it not changed for you how you think about it?
Sarah No. I actually wonder about that sometimes. Like, how's that gonna work? I'm building like, caring for a human in your body while caring for yourself.
Scott Benner Yeah. It can be a lot of work. There's a ton of information and a lot of ladies have have shared their stories in the podcast. If you ever get closer to thinking about it, you can listen to them. They'll talk about how their insulin needs change and shift throughout pregnancy and stuff like that.
Scott Benner It's pretty interesting actually. I have no more questions. I feel like you guys did such a great job of telling your story. I feel like I'm I'm I feel done.
Matilde Scott, thanks a million.
Scott Benner Thank you so No. Really. You guys are terrific. This is lovely of you to do. I appreciate you taking your time.
Scott Benner Sarah, why are you not at school? What's going on?
Sarah For this podcast.
Scott Benner Oh, nice. Got a day off?
Matilde Yeah.
Scott Benner Will you go in late or no? Forget it.
Sarah No. I'm not gonna go in late. I'm not
Matilde She's really she's super responsible. She can miss today. It's not
Scott Benner a problem. Well, that even that's very nice. I'm glad that that it seemed important enough for you to do something like that. Thank you. Seriously, hold on one second for me.
Closing & Sponsor Messages
Scott Benner I really appreciate this.
Scott Benner Touched by Type One sponsored this episode of the Juice Box podcast. Check them out at touchedbytype1.org on Instagram and Facebook. Give them a follow. Go check out what they're doing.
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Scott Benner Okay. Well, here we are at the end of the episode. You're still with me? Thank you. I really do appreciate that.
Scott Benner What else could you do for me? Why don't you tell a friend about the show or leave a five star review? Maybe you could make sure you're following or subscribe in your podcast app, go to YouTube and follow me, or Instagram, TikTok. Oh, gosh. Here's one.
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Scott Benner Whatever you need to know, there's a conversation happening in there right now. And I'm there all the time. Tag me. I'll say hi. If you're new to type one diabetes, begin with the bold beginnings series from the podcast.
Scott Benner Don't take my word for it. Listen to what reviewers have said. Bold beginnings is the best first step. I learned more in those episodes than anywhere else. This is when everything finally clicked.
Scott Benner People say it takes the stress out of the early days and replaces it with clarity. They tell me this should come with the diagnosis packet that I got at the hospital. And after they listen, they recommend it to everyone who's struggling. It's straightforward, practical, and easy to listen to. Bold Beginnings gives you the basics in a way that actually makes sense.
Scott Benner The Juice Box podcast is edited by Wrong Way Recording. Wrongwayrecording.com. If you'd like your podcast to sound as good as mine, check out Rob at wrongwayrecording.com.
#1804 Dr. Aaron Shiloh
Scott talks with interventional radiologist Dr. Aaron Shiloh of USA Hemorrhoid Centers about Hemorrhoid Artery Embolization (HAE), a minimally invasive outpatient treatment that resolved Scott's severe, chronic bleeding without major surgery.
Learn more at USA Hemorrhoid Centers or call (855)546-2511
Companies that Support Juicebox
Key Takeaways
- Hemorrhoid Artery Embolization (HAE) is a minimally invasive, outpatient procedure that reduces hemorrhoid symptoms by directly treating the underlying blood flow and reducing pressure.
- Uterine Fibroid Embolization (UFE) offers an effective alternative to hysterectomies, allowing patients to shrink benign tumors and relieve heavy bleeding without major surgery.
- Many vascular issues, such as medical vein disease (varicose veins), are genuine medical conditions covered by insurance, not purely cosmetic problems.
- Interventional radiology utilizes advanced image guidance to perform complex treatments through tiny incisions, drastically reducing recovery times compared to traditional surgical methods.
- Patients must proactively advocate for their own health, as insurance companies and even some doctors may default to suggesting older, more invasive procedures or delay necessary care.
Resources Mentioned
- USA Hemorrhoid Centers
- Juice Box Podcast - Bold Beginnings Series
- Wrong Way Recording
Introduction to Dr. Aaron Shiloh
Scott BennerWelcome back, friends.
You are listening to the Juice Box podcast.
Hey, everybody.
It's Scott.
I am here to let you know that today's episode is a little different than normal.
Scott BennerI'm having a conversation in this one with Aaron Shiloh.
He is a doctor who just performed a procedure for me.
We'll tell you all about it in a second.
It's one of those things that I hope you don't need, but if you do, you're gonna really, really be happy that you've heard about this.
Doctor Shiloh doesn't just do what he did for me.
Scott BennerHe does a couple of other things.
We'll talk about those as well.
So if you're a woman, experiencing fibroids, if you have varicose veins, he does a lot of cool stuff besides what he did for me.
It's actually very interesting how he takes his talents and his skill and applies it to places that you might not normally think about.
Anyway, I don't wanna ruin the fun for you till you jump in and hear the whole story, But I appreciate you being here and listening to this.
Scott BennerI hope this isn't something you need, but if it is, pay attention because doctor Shiloh really saved my ass, and he might be able to help you too.
Nothing you hear on the Juice Box podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise.
Always consult a physician before making any changes to your health care plan.
This episode of the Juice Box podcast is sponsored by USA Hemorrhoid Centers.
Go to usahemorrhoidcenters.com to learn about the procedure that I had and much more.
Scott BennerDon't let this be a pain in your butt any longer.
Aaron ShilohHello.
My name is doctor Aaron Shiloh.
I am an interventional radiologist working out of USA Clinics Group, performing many different types of minimally invasive treatments.
I'm happy to be here today to discuss, various treatments that we offer, probably with specific attention to the hemorrhoid treatments that we offer.
Scott BennerYeah.
Doctor Shiloh has been my physician, is my physician currently, and, we're gonna talk about, what I had done with him as well.
So I really appreciate you doing this.
This is a little bit of a left turn for the podcast about what we're talking about, but I feel like it might be really important for people to hear.
So, I appreciate you taking the time.
The Path to Interventional Radiology
Scott BennerThank you very much.
Sure.
Why don't we start with a little bit about how you I mean, let's go back all the way.
You leave high school, go to college.
What do you go for?
Scott BennerWhat's the process of of becoming a doctor, and and how do you land where you are now?
Aaron ShilohSure.
So, you know, I always wanted to be a doctor, and I, went to, Penn State, here in Pennsylvania and studied biology and premedicine in the, university scholars program, and now it's called Shrier's Honors College.
From there, I was fortunate enough to attend, the University of Pennsylvania Medical School.
And at that time, I wanted to be a brain surgeon, interestingly enough.
And I sat through a couple twelve hour brain surgeries and realized that though I loved it, it was too much for me in terms of time procedures.
Aaron ShilohSo I decided I was gonna go into general surgery, and when I finished my, medical school training, I started into general surgery again at the University of Pennsylvania.
In my surgery training, one of the places I had to go to every day, literally every day, was radiology and interventional radiology.
And as someone who grew up loving video games, I got to go down to interventional radiology, otherwise known as IR, and ask them to help out with different problems that we had as general surgeons.
And I literally was there every day, and I was like, wow.
This place is cool.
Aaron ShilohThey're doing some really amazing cutting edge things through tiny little pinholes, and it felt a little bit like watching them do it, like playing a video game in the human body.
And I was like, wow.
This field is new and and advancing medicine, and I thought, well, this may be what I really wanna do.
And so I transitioned from general surgery into wanting to pursue a career in interventional radiology.
Now interventional radiology has its own residency, but back then, it did not.
Aaron ShilohAnd so I ended up having to leave the University of Pennsylvania and go to Thomas Jefferson University also in Philadelphia and start a radiology residency.
And during my residency, I got into interventional radiology, and then then I was selected to be the chief resident at Jefferson in interventional in radiology.
I'm sorry.
And then I started my interventional radiology fellowship again in Jefferson, and then, you know, finished that as well.
And once I was done at Jeff, I took a job with, a private practice group in the Philadelphia area and quickly became the chief of interventional radiology for one of the largest private practice groups in The United States.
Aaron ShilohAnd we were doing some really amazing things.
And at one point, I was in charge of 15 doctors, multiple physician's assistants, and covering about 12 hospitals.
Scott BennerHow long ago was that?
Aaron ShilohThat was basically from 2003 to 2017.
Scott BennerOkay.
So in 2003, when you say we were doing some pretty amazing things, what did that mean back then?
Aaron ShilohSo there was a lot of things that we were doing that are things you don't know about.
It was actually fascinating.
I was watching the pit recently, and they actually referenced interventional radiology.
And we're always, like, in the shadows.
No one ever talks about us.
Aaron ShilohBut, you know, things like patients coming in with a bleed from their colon or from their gut, and we can go in through a tiny hole in an in an artery and find the source of bleeding and put a little metal plug in there and stop the bleeding Right.
Known as a GI bleed.
That's basic.
Biopsies, things like you many people need a thyroid biopsy or a lung biopsy or kidney or liver biopsy using CAT scans and ultrasounds and X rays to perform procedures on people.
One of the things that I was actually most skilled at and became the leader for my group is using my techniques to do minimally invasive cancer treatments, like ablations of liver tumors, lung tumors, kidney tumors.
Aaron ShilohSo instead of taking out kidney cancer, for example, you can put a needle in the tumor, hook it up to a machine, and turn it on, and watch the kidney cancer completely disappear.
From there, we had this other really neat thing where if people have metastatic disease to the liver or or liver cancer from cirrhosis, you can embolize the liver using different techniques, sometimes particles, sometimes chemotherapeutic agents.
And the thing that I really ended up up pushing forward at least in the community around Philadelphia was, radioactive bead embolization.
So you can actually put in small glass particles that contain or they can be made of resin as well, but small particles that contain a radioactive substance called yttrium 90, and that you can then impregnate tumors with radioactive beads, and they will then radiate tumors from the inside out.
So at that time, it was being done in only a handful of places around The United States when I first started, and I brought that to the, local Philadelphia area.
Aaron ShilohAnd over the years, did hundreds and hundreds of treatments on many, many patients.
Expanding Treatment Options: Fibroids and Veins
Scott BennerSo then how do you well, I guess we should list first.
What are all the procedures that you do right now in your clinic?
Aaron ShilohThat works with sort of the transitioning.
So then around 2000, actually around 2014, I opened up my own vein practice.
In addition to doing this other job, I was also one day a week running my own practice, treating patients with varicose veins, doing superficial vein treatments, you again, ablation and minimally invasive treatments.
And around 2018, I was offered an opportunity to go to the outpatient world and move my vein practice to someone's office and start doing some of the treatments that I do in the hospital in an outpatient office setting.
Unfortunately, that didn't work out for various reasons that are not relevant to this discussion at the moment, but we basically proved that you can do the same procedures that were done once in the hospital that were super complicated could be done in an outpatient office setting.
Scott BennerYeah.
Aaron ShilohSo then I eventually joined my current company USA Clinics Group around 2020, so now five years.
And at this group, we do treatments for varicose veins, for women's fibroids, an an embolization procedure where you kill the fibroids with small particles like I was describing in the liver.
And then we started doing a new treatment called hemorrhoid artery embolization, and, also, we do treatments.
I do treatments for patients with knee pain and osteoarthritis called the genicular artery embolization.
Wow.
Aaron ShilohI'd embolize people's prostates if they get enlarged, a very common problem, BPH, and then also some arterial disease, peripheral arterial disease.
So if you have a narrowing in an artery in your leg, you can open it up with balloons and stents.
So, basically, now I do vein treatments, treatments for fibroids, treatments for hemorrhoids, treatments for knee pain, prosthetic enlargement, and and peripheral arterial disease.
Scott BennerSo you're basically either capping something, cleaning, clearing something, or delivering something with the technology.
Is that right?
Aaron ShilohThat's about right.
I mean, you know, in vein disease, mainly, we're closing problematic veins.
In arterial disease, we're opening up arteries that are not the blood isn't flowing through them.
And then in our embolization procedures, like the hemorrhoid embolization, fibroid embolization, genicular artery embolization, prostate embolization, anything that's an embolization Mhmm.
Is a procedure where either particles, small particles, or metal plugs called coils are delivered via a small catheter to the area of interest to block the flow to that structure.
Scott BennerWhen we're talking about a fibroid, so if a female develops a fibroid, they used to just they just take them out usually.
Right?
So they now you're gonna go in there and do what to it?
Like, does it come out?
Does it get shrunk?
Scott BennerDoes it, you know what's the recovery time like?
I'm interested in that procedure specifically.
Aaron ShilohSo that's a wonderful question.
I could talk about fibroids for an hour as well, but the fibroid embolization is not a new technique.
That started in 1995 in Los Angeles, and I personally have been performing them since 1998.
Mhmm.
So a couple thousand in my, you know, in my belt.
Aaron ShilohSo to your point, most women with fibroids are treated, unfortunately, still to this day in The United States by hysterectomy.
There are 400,000 hysterectomies done in The United States every single year.
The vast majority of them are on patients with benign fibroid disease.
Some of them are for cancer, and those, of course, need to come out.
But for fibroid disease, you absolutely don't need to have, your uterus removed.
Aaron ShilohThe equivalent is, to me, is that historically, you know, years and years ago, if you had heart disease, what would happen?
You'd have your chest opened up.
You'd have triple, quadruple bypass.
We probably both know plenty of people who had open heart surgery.
We all now know that the standard of care is a minimally invasive approach.
Aaron ShilohSo most patients now can be treated through a catheterization of an artery and opening up the artery in the heart.
So in heart disease, we've moved to a less invasive treatment option.
In a fibroid embolization, we catheterize an artery either in the wrist or the leg, like the hemorrhoid embolization.
Scott BennerRight.
Aaron ShilohAnd we inject small inert plastic beads called embospheres into the fibroids.
The fibroids are benign tumors, and so they don't have to be removed.
And they will shrink just like you said.
They shrink I like to refer to it as like a grape into a raisin.
So they dry up and they desiccate.
Aaron ShilohSo in my hands, most fibroids shrink under after the procedure by about 70 to 80%.
So think of, like, a tennis ball going to a golf ball.
Scott BennerMhmm.
Aaron ShilohShrink, they don't completely disappear.
On rare occasion, the fibroids come out of the body, but, you know, these are individual things that we discuss with patients when we look at their imaging, their ultrasound or MRI prior to their procedure.
Scott BennerSo if somebody's having like a blockage or a urinary issue around a fibroid, it's possible that doing this to it would shrink it enough to maybe relieve the issue they were having.
Aaron ShilohOh, absolutely.
Yeah.
Most women with fibroid disease are in their mid forties.
The most common symptom women experience is heavy menstrual bleeding.
Many many women suffer from years with this problem because they don't want their uterus out.
Aaron ShilohThey don't want a big abdominal surgery, and they aren't offered any other options, and thus they don't know about it, and they keep suffering.
I have countless women.
I treated one yesterday whose hemoglobin was four, you know, normal being 12 to 15, And she's allowed to bleed down, bleed down, bleed down, get blood transfusions, iron transfusions, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.
All because no one said, hey.
Maybe you want this procedure to stop this bleeding.
Aaron ShilohAnd so inevitably, at least currently, most of the patients arrive at my door through things like this, podcasts, social media, etcetera.
They hear about it.
They find out about it, and they come to us directly.
Scott BennerAfter the embolization, then the fibroid doesn't bleed any longer?
Aaron ShilohRight.
Scott BennerOkay.
Wow.
That's awesome.
Aaron ShilohFibroids that bleed so in fibroid disease, there it depends on the location of the fibroid.
Fibroids are classified in basically three separate locations, submucosal, intramural, or subserosal.
And depending upon the location of the fibroids determines the symptoms that they're having.
So I always tell women that fibroid disease isn't like real estate, you know, the famous quote, location, location, location.
So depending upon where the fibroid's located will determine the symptoms, not so much how big they are.
Aaron ShilohSo a big fibroid on the outside of the uterus on the front will squish the bladder and make women pee over and over and over and over again.
Every twenty minutes they feel like they have to pee, that same fibroid inside the uterus will give them heavy bleeding.
That same fibroid on the backside of the uterus will push on their colon and give them constipation or low back pain.
Low down and near the cervix will give them pain during sex, and on and on and on.
So depending upon the location of the fibroid, you know, determines the symptoms.
Aaron ShilohMany women have multiple fibroids and thus they come in with numerous symptoms leading and pain and pressure on their bladder, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.
Some women's uteruses grow to as big as five months pregnant.
Scott BennerWow.
With a five now do you do imaging prior to the procedure, or do you do you find them during the procedure?
Let's be honest.
Some health issues don't make it into your family group chat conversations, but that doesn't mean they're not affecting your day to day life.
This episode is sponsored by USA Hemorrhoid Centers, and they're changing the game with hemorrhoid artery embolization, a nonsurgical minimally invasive treatment that targets hemorrhoids without the horror stories people usually imagine.
Scott BennerNo major surgery, no long downtime, just a smarter outpatient option.
They've got multiple locations across The US, and they accept most insurance plans, so help might be more accessible than you think.
If this is something you've been avoiding dealing with, consider this your sign and take it from me as I know firsthand how life changing this procedure and company is.
Check them out at usahemorrhoidcenters.com.
Aaron ShilohNo.
Most women when they come in either have had an ultrasound beforehand or we do one on-site, and then as needed, we order MRIs to better evaluate the fibroids.
That used to be the standard of care.
We found that it doesn't change our management all that much.
So there are occasions where I get MRIs, and, they give beautiful pictures, and they really help me see.
Aaron ShilohBut when we do the fibroid embolization, we target the entire uterus.
So if you have one fibroid or you have 25 fibroids, it's irrelevant.
They all get treated at once.
Scott BennerYeah.
And I guess the million dollar question here, is it covered by insurance?
Aaron ShilohAbsolutely.
Awesome.
This procedure has been validated.
Unfortunately, you know, some procedures like we're gonna discuss are validated, but just quote, unquote, not enough for certain insurers to cover them.
How they make this decision is, not something I'm a can really sort out, but my gut is that it's a financial decision of more than anything else, and the type of studies that are being asked for or required are nearly impossible to get enough data on.
Aaron ShilohBut UFE, since it's been around for thirty years, has had numerous studies.
Scott BennerI'll talk a little more about that in a second.
What's the recovery time from the the fibroid procedure?
Aaron ShilohYou know, the UFE is actually a really amazing procedure now.
I do them in an outpatient basis.
And because I do a lot of them, they take about twenty minutes to
Scott Bennerdo.
Okay.
Aaron ShilohThe procedure's painless, done with sedation, which, you can speak to a little bit about.
But the recovery is a little bit more intense.
It it does take a good week to recover the first couple days.
Scott BennerThat's pretty great, man.
I I can't I can't tell you how happy I am to have met you.
I'm gonna go through a couple of the other ones before I get to me.
Varicose veins are is that is that a is that an insurance thing, or is that considered cosmetic?
Aaron ShilohI'm glad you asked that.
So medical vein disease treatments are covered by insurance.
It's no different than heart disease.
It's an actual structural problem in the valves in your superficial veins.
It's a very common misconception, not just by patients, but by primary doctors and everybody that it's just it's just cosmetic.
Aaron ShilohAnd I can't tell you how many patients who have suffered for years with varicose veins on their legs and swelling and discoloration who are not sent by their primaries because I'm sure they suspect that it's just cosmetic.
And so vein disease is a medical problem.
There's also a cosmetic problem, and we treat that as well.
But medical vein disease is in fact a medical problem.
Scott's Personal Hemorrhoid Struggle
Scott BennerWell, so the way I found you and, this is gonna be I don't It's not gonna be tough for me because I've practiced by talking about it in another episode.
But, you know, you and I have talked about it and I've I've talked about it here.
It's interesting.
Like, if if I would have told somebody that periodically, two, three times a year, almost randomly, I started bleeding uncontrollably for a number of hours and I couldn't stop it until it decided to stop, people would be horrified by it.
They'd, you know, they'd have a ton of compassion.
Scott BennerWhen you tell them that it comes from, you know, your rectum, then all of a sudden it's funny, you know?
Like, oh, you have hemorrhoids.
And, for my you know, a lot of my adult life, that's kinda just what I thought.
I thought, oh, I have hemorrhoids.
Like, you know, and I did all the things.
Scott BennerAnything you can think of that somebody tells you to do for it, I've done it.
And I mean from, like, simple creams and salves to, like, you know, baths and Epsom salt and significant dietary changes, significant weight loss.
Like, seriously, you Google how to treat it, I've done it, and it didn't change.
Now for perspective and because we're talking about it here, I I'm gonna tell I could tell any number of of stories, but one that I think the people listening will maybe appreciate and have some connection to is that I probably have spoken at the same event in Orlando six or seven years.
And about three or four years ago, I got done full day on my feet, you know, talking and moving around.
Scott BennerBlood pressure was probably, you know, up most of the day and everything.
I got back to my room, had some dinner.
I was fine.
Decided to jump in the shower late at night, got in the shower, relaxed, and looked down, and I was just bleeding.
And it was significant.
Scott BennerAnd I stood in the shower panicked.
I did not know what to do.
I was in a hotel room.
I thought, I can't get out of the shower.
I'm bleeding.
Scott BennerWhat do I do?
Finally, I realized because I was standing, this was never gonna stop.
Got out of the shower, just to be candid, grabbed a wad of toilet paper, you know, jammed it in my up my and, like, went over and laid on the floor because I didn't know what else to do.
It's about 11:00 at night, and I think the bleeding stopped around 3AM.
And I was like, I had to get up in the morning and get on a plane.
Scott BennerAnd I can't even begin to tell you about the fear and the panic about leaving that hotel room or getting on a plane or all that other stuff.
Right?
But once the bleeding stopped, it kinda stopped.
Then you get home, and then the other stuff comes.
Right?
Scott BennerThe the the small bits that nobody talks about.
Like, you're scared for it to happen again.
So you start restricting how you eat, how you move.
I don't wanna stand up too long.
I guess I'm just a person who has hemorrhoids, this is how they bleed.
Scott BennerYou don't wanna tell anybody.
You know?
It's you know, even it's embarrassing to tell your wife or or anybody, really.
And, these poor people that hire me to come to this event, they're gonna hear this and be mortified.
That has happened to me three times in that hotel room.
Scott BennerIt has happened to me on the cruise.
I took my listeners on last year.
It has happened to me in my house.
It has happened to me in a lot of places.
So if you see me out doing a speaking event, I probably haven't eaten for three or four days before that just because I don't wanna put myself in a position where I'm standing, talking, moving, and then need to use the bathroom.
Scott BennerIt's been significantly impactful on my life.
When I lost weight and it didn't affect it, I have to be honest with you, I was lost.
I thought, well, that's it.
This is the rest of my life.
And I started looking into the surgery, which sounds barbaric, the surgery that is commonly done for this problem.
Scott BennerAnd it's the only thing that stopped me from going after this.
It did not seem like the outcomes would be good.
You know?
And then one day, even though I had looked over and over and over again online, I never quite could find it.
I asked chat GPT one day, is this the only thing I can do?
Scott BennerAnd it said, no.
You could get a a hemorrhoid embolization.
I was like, right on.
So I looked online.
You're, like, ten minutes from my house, which made me bang my head against the wall.
Scott BennerYou know?
Came and saw you.
You asked me about my symptoms.
I remember you saying you are a perfect candidate for this, and then I went home to find out that my otherwise very good health insurance didn't wanna pay for it.
It was the demoralizing to to say the very least.
Scott BennerCandidly, that everybody understands, the company that you work for in exchange for you being on the podcast today gave me a a decreased rate, But I did end up still paying cash for the procedure, and it it's still a a hefty sum for for a normal person to pay.
But it seemed that important to me.
Can you tell people when you examine me what what it is you saw and, maybe explain to them why I mean, we call them hemorrhoids, but I don't know if that's a great way to categorize what what what was wrong with me really.
The Science of Hemorrhoid Embolization
Aaron ShilohRight.
Well, first of all, I mean, I think and you mentioned some of these things to me before, Scott, but I didn't know the extent to which you had suffered, and, you know, it's interesting what you're describing because this procedure really began as a treatment primarily for, as I mentioned to you, GI bleeding.
So you probably in the moment, and others might have gone to the emergency room at the time when you were having that fairly significant rectal bleed, and they just call you.
And we used to get called like that day and night.
GI doctors came on board and started trying to do things with a scope, but you can imagine your colon or rectum is full of blood.
Aaron ShilohHow can they see anything?
And so then years of of of practice, radiology and interventional radiology developed techniques to deal with that, including figuring out where you're bleeding from, doing a tag red blood cell scan or a CT angiogram, and then saying, oh, you're bleeding from the right colon, the, know, the small bowel, the left colon, or in this case, the rectum, and going in there with a catheter, finding that source of bleeding.
And when people are actively bleeding, we say they're extravasating or you can see literally as you inject IV dye into the artery that you suspect, you can literally see it pumping into the cone.
Okay.
And you then direct.
Aaron ShilohSo this is where I talk about it.
It's like a video game.
I have a monitor.
I have a foot pedal, X rays, and I'm watching the monitor as I'm using my fingers to manipulate a tiny wire and catheter.
And when I say tiny, they're the size of, you know, one millimeter or so in diameter, the microcatheters, to the source of the bleeding, and you plug it.
Aaron ShilohAnd it's like turning off a faucet.
It's really amazing, heroic, you know, feels lifesaving and all that, like, TV show.
Scott BennerYeah.
Aaron ShilohSo doctors like myself determined, hey.
If we can do this under extreme circumstances, why not treat people like yourself who are having intermittent yet significant hemorrhoidal bleeding?
And that's how this procedure began to be developed mostly in Europe and South America where it's easier to get things done than in The United States where, you know, you have to jump over 50 hurdles before it's somehow approved by some nebulous entity without clear guidance as to what guides their decision making.
Right.
Not enough evidence.
Aaron ShilohNot enough evidence.
Not enough evidence.
And as you pointed out, there are other treatment options.
The most extreme, which you probably would have been offered is the definitive for mortal surgery, which though you're relatively healthy guy, would have been a big deal.
And the surgery itself, you know, let's say you get through without an issue.
Aaron ShilohThe recovery from those surgeries is really, really, really difficult, and that's why lots of patients have been steered away from it either from their primaries that even colorectal surgeons are semi reluctant to do it because they know, god, this patient's going to be in awful, awful, awful pain, not just for a couple days, from weeks and months and months.
And many patients I've spoken to over the last five years who've had that surgery and other people that I know personally will describe it as literally the worst experience they can go through in their entire life.
They wouldn't wish it upon anybody else.
So for that reason, people have developed less invasive things like rubber band ligation, like injections, like a procedure that's similar to what we do, which is the Doppler assisted ligation.
But that's all because no one wants this definitive surgery, and so that's how this procedure sort of came to be.
Aaron ShilohIt is really unfortunate that in your particular case, your insurance did not
Scott BennerIt was correct.
Aaron ShilohDoes not cover it.
There are others that do, and we work very hard to try to change the narrative, and maybe things like what we're doing here will help with that, but it's and the patients will advocate, and you'll advocate.
Scott BennerBut Well, I hope so.
I'll tell you.
I mean, listen.
You're getting a a slightly lower prices.
You know, I'm happy to take that, but I am taking my platform and talking about this because you have no idea.
Scott BennerLike, I started thinking, like, I don't know how many people are going through something like this cause I never would have told anybody.
Right?
Like, had this not come up in in you know, to be completely candid, I would have never said this out loud.
And I've tried the banding twice.
I've shared this on the podcast before, but I'm gonna put it here for each.
Scott BennerI've tried the banding twice.
The banding was, like, presented to me as, like, oh, don't worry.
It's a quick office procedure.
It's not a big deal.
Blah blah blah.
Scott BennerWell, it it was a big deal when the guy pulled out a speculum.
And, you know, and I had my young like, my kid was still in a car seat the first time I did.
This was, twenty four years ago I tried this the first time.
Right?
Banding works, incredibly painful, and, you know, you're good, and then you're not again.
Scott BennerAnd then it's going to what I think I've learned going through this procedure because I tried that banding twice and I was starting to think about doing it again.
But I think what I've learned and this is really I I can't believe.
I'm having trouble saying this out loud.
Listen.
If I'm saying this wrong, you'll make it more tactical for me.
Scott BennerBut as soon as you were done the procedure, I was only out of that room for a couple of minutes.
You walked over to me and asked me how I was, and I said, all the pressure in the lower part of my body is gone.
I didn't realize I was living with so much pressure.
And then I even it happened so quickly that I thought I must be making it up.
You know?
Scott BennerBut now we're I don't know how far are we out now from having it done.
Maybe I'm a month or six weeks out of having it done.
That has been completely true the whole time.
There was pressure inside of me constantly.
I'm imagining in my mind it's from extra too much blood being in a place.
Scott BennerRight?
Aaron ShilohRight.
Scott BennerNow my question is, how far up are the things you I can't believe I'm gonna ask you this way.
From the hole, how far up was what you did?
Aaron ShilohSo that's you know, maybe this is a good opportunity to segue.
You did ask me what it looked like, and I should segue a bit into why the banding doesn't work, and what is the pathophysiology and and the actual root cause of the hemorrhoidal disease.
Why?
Why do I have this problem?
You know, you you know, and women who give birth, they get hemorrhoids and others, but you're a man.
Aaron ShilohYou didn't give birth.
You have no specific reason for having it.
And so what is the reason?
Now I can't tell you why, unfortunately, you're afflicted by this problem, but I can tell you what the problem is.
So I'm gonna try to answer several questions at once.
Aaron ShilohIn your particular case, when we did do the anoscopy and look, we see internally a very vascular vein bubble or a hemorrhoid.
Now why is it there?
Okay.
So to your point, you have your anus, then above that, you have something called the dentate line, which is where the sensitive area of the butt is and the less sensitive or desensitized area of the rectum is.
In that area, just above the dentate line, there's a tubular rounded area of tissue called the corpus cavernosum recti.
Aaron ShilohBig word.
K?
But what that is, it's a very vascular bed fed by arteries from the superior rectal arteries.
So they are derivatives of the artery called the infamous entire artery, which feeds the rectum and sigmoid colon and also part of the descending colon.
Alright?
Aaron ShilohThere won't be a quiz for anatomy.
No.
Scott BennerI appreciate this.
Thank you.
Aaron ShilohThere are arteries called the superior rectal arteries.
Now they feed that area, and inside that area are large venous lakes.
And so it can swell and decompress to assist in the pooping mechanism.
The analogy that I tell patients, I may have told you, is in the male body, there's another corpus cavernosum.
It's in the penis, and it's what allows men to get an erection.
Aaron ShilohSo men get simulated, that area fills with blood, that tissue type fills with blood, and you get an erection, and then later it decompresses.
Now that same type of tissue exists in all humans, men and women, in their lower rectum and fill swells and decompresses.
Those venous this is my best understanding of this, and the way that I think about it is those venous channels are like bricks.
And in a brick house, you have bricks and mortar.
The mortar is what holds everything together.
Aaron ShilohSo in that area, the mortar is a matrix of connective tissue that that is keeping that structurally intact.
In patients with hemorrhoidal disease, that matrix has broken down.
And because of that, there's a swelling that takes place in the venous side, and we see when we inject IV dye to do the imaging prior to the embolization, we see a lot of blood flow into that area.
Too much blood flow.
Just an increased vascularity.
Aaron ShilohSo what you really are having there is like an arterial venous malformation.
So it's fed by big arteries, but the end outcome is a vein.
So the other analogy that I probably told you and I tell patients too is that the hemorrhoid is like looking up in the ceiling and seeing a brown spot develop a wet mark in your ceiling.
Right?
So you don't call a painter to call them and say, hey.
Aaron ShilohI don't like how that looks.
I'd better paint that up.
Of course not.
We both know that if you do that, it's just gonna happen again.
So that's what banding does.
Aaron ShilohBanding literally paints over the spot or replaces the ceiling tile without getting to the root of the problem.
So what we're doing is we are getting to the source, to the root cause of the increased vascularity to that segment of rectum by putting that catheter in and directing the microcatheter into all four superior rectal arteries and blocking them with metal coils to reduce the pressure.
And by depressurizing it, it allows those venous side on the vein side to decompress.
It's no longer inflated.
So that hemorrhoids like a balloon that you inflated with your lips, and it's constantly being inflated by that pressure.
Aaron ShilohAnd as soon as you cut that off, that balloon deflates.
And I think that's why in your particular case, you felt a real rapid decompression because that's what I did is I decompress that those balloons.
Now not every patient gets an immediate effect like you do.
That's a fantastic effect, but you had a really, really, really chronic problem years and years and it developed.
You had many vessels very vascular, and as soon as that was cut off, they it was depressurized.
Aaron ShilohSo you felt that, and then to my understanding from speaking to you before that you're no longer bleeding, and and I am I'm just thrilled for you because I know from talking to patients like yourself and fibroid patients who have to worry about bleeding through their clothes, and when am I gonna bleed again, and not knowing it.
It's an overwhelming mental mentally exhausting life to lead when you can't just relax and be like, well, I can just live my life.
And and to free you of that is, you know, for me personally, a very rewarding and satisfying thing to be able to say, look, you know, just you don't have to exhaust you.
I'm how much mental energy did you spend on any given day worrying about this happening?
And when it did happen, the thoughts that would get
Scott Bennerinto You have no idea.
The the kind of machinations that go on in the background trying to obscure it, keep it from happening, get in front of it, stop it once it's happened.
Happened to me once at the airport on the way out to somewhere.
It's happened to me in my home.
It's just it and, you know, you could say, like, well, what brings it on?
Scott BennerI don't even know.
You know, it's not a change in my diet.
It's not it's I I can tell that if it's once it's a problem, having been on my feet for a while prior to that added to it, and I think talking and keeping my heart rate up all day also had something to do with it.
Like, if I had to, like, break it down, but no, you you're absolutely right.
I have had absolutely no bleeding since you and I got together.
Recovery and Navigating Insurance
Scott BennerThe procedure itself, I always think about when I first met you, you're like, I'm sorry.
Like, it takes so long, but it took, like, forty five minutes, I think.
Like, it didn't take very long at all.
I remember, I think, having a fairly cogent conversation even with the nursing staff.
Like, I wasn't even out all the way when you did it.
Scott BennerMy recollection of it was as as funny as it sounds is that, you'd go, you know, I guess you were in there with the wire, you'd you'd inject a dye to look around to see what you were doing.
I felt like I got very warm, you know, in the area where you injected the dye.
You did the you know, you did it.
You did it.
You did it.
Scott BennerAnd then I remember maybe the even the only part of it that I could even talk about being unpleasant might have been, like, at the end, you actually have to embolize where you went in with the wire.
Aaron ShilohYeah.
We have to close the site of the artery.
Scott BennerTo call it uncomfortable, I don't remember.
I can't even quantify it.
But in that moment, I thought, oh, that pinched a little.
And then that was that was kind of like, you know, then it was it.
I was outside, you know, on my I think I was out of there in, an hour, to be perfectly honest with you, you you know, after you were done.
Aaron ShilohYeah.
Scott BennerAnd I have not had any issues.
I'll tell you beyond the pressure being gone up inside.
That's the reason I asked you how far it is up inside where the pressure was because I didn't understand that's where the bleeding was coming from because I actually also have an external hemorrhoid.
And I think that the pressure from the inside is what created the hemorrhoid at the external area.
So you and I talked at my at my follow-up that we're just gonna wait some time and hope that my body kinda reforms and reshapes now that that pressure is not there anymore.
Scott BennerAnd it is much better already because there's nothing behind it, like pushing constantly.
You know?
But other odd little not odd, but even the shape of my stool is normal now.
And I didn't realize it really wasn't before.
And now as I think about it, it was being sent through a Play Doh fun factory trying to get out instead of, like, you know, coming out the way it was supposed to.
Scott BennerI can't tell you how awesome it is.
I would 100%.
I'd I would've I'd pay the whole amount.
Like and if you told me it was gonna fail in twenty years and I had to come back, I just start saving money now because it changed my life in a split second.
Really did.
Aaron ShilohWell, hopefully, listen.
Hopefully, it won't.
I mean, I in all honesty for myself, I've learned so much over the last five years about the pathophysiology of this particular disease.
If you asked me twenty years ago if I'd be putting in speculums when I did IR, I probably would have been like, no way.
But, you know, it it is helpful and instructive.
Aaron ShilohAnd now seeing patients, seeing them later, and then learning more and more about the variations in the anatomy.
And then the one thing that we've done in our group, myself and the other docs who do this primarily in New York, is we are refining the technique by discussing it.
And I think amongst the group of doctors in my company, there's probably nobody maybe in The United States doing as many hemorrhoid embolizations as we are.
So we have a large amount of experience now, and we have sort of refined the technique.
And one of the things that we're doing as not only are we looking at the superior rectal arteries, which are the main supply, we also look at sort of this the side doors that supply that area, and they're called middle rectal arteries.
Aaron ShilohAnd it used to be that we'd no one touched those, and then it was, like, only if the treatment failed.
And now on every single case, I did one today where I thought, oh, I did a great job on the SRAs.
Looks great, but I'm gonna go and look.
And on the left side, there was nothing.
I mean, there was nothing to talk about.
Aaron ShilohOn the right side, a huge artery feeding that area in other docs and other places.
And maybe five years ago, I would have not even bothered with it.
And today, I went in, and I know this guy's gonna do fantastic.
There's just a lot.
It's a very complex area.
Aaron ShilohThere is no two people who are the same arturally in the rectum.
You know, sometimes I do four arteries.
Sometimes I do seven.
Once we're done, I think now that we've refined the technique to where we're at, the success rate, particularly for patients like yourself with chronic internal hemorrhoids that are bleeding is really, really, really great.
I mean, I'd say ninety to a hundred percent.
Aaron ShilohIt it's challenging in that you can't block every artery because if you do and if you completely block it off, that area will die.
We don't want that, obviously.
So we have to be cautious to some degree that we can't overdo it.
We can't overcook it.
So, again, because of our joint experience and my own personal experience now, I think we've refined it.
Aaron ShilohAnd so for patients like yourself, it's really an amazing, amazing, amazing treatment and really confident it helps people.
Scott BennerYeah.
No.
I I can't again, I can't tell you how happy I am.
I got an email from a woman after I mentioned on the podcast the first time, and she said, oh, my poor husband just had that surgery, and it really left him in a bad way.
I wish I would have known about this before.
Scott BennerAnd I thought, I'm doing the right thing talking about it.
So, you know, hopefully, the Internet will leave me alone a little bit.
You know what the other thing is is that this podcast is mainly about type one diabetes.
Right?
And it's people have autoimmune issues, and a lot of them autoimmune issues are invisible to other people.
Scott BennerAnd I thought, boy, this really does fit in with that because, you know, in a million years, I've done an amazing job of hiding this from people.
And it is no different than as far as the impact on you, it's no different you shouldn't be hiding anything.
You know what I mean?
Like, it's tough.
Like, walk through the house.
Scott BennerWhat's wrong?
Nothing's wrong.
I'm fine.
You know?
Are you okay?
Scott BennerI'm fine.
I'm fine.
You know, you you appear to be in a bad mood for a second.
You're not in a bad mood.
You just you you know, you just thought you just bled out in the bathroom, and you're you're wondering if you're gonna pass out now.
Scott BennerAnd everybody in the apartment, you know, in the house wants to know, like, it's dinner time.
Do wanna eat?
I'm like, no.
I'm not hungry.
And then, you know, what's wrong with him?
Scott BennerAnd you just you don't say anything because it's just it was embarrassing.
I'm not embarrassed by it anymore, and I can't believe I it it took AI to to send me in the right direction.
Aaron ShilohIt's a it's a shame, Scott.
You know, I think that we need to do a better job, myself and others.
We're doing the best we can to educate the community, the primary doctors, you know, that there are these things.
We actually are experts in orphan diseases.
You know, to your point, things that people suffer from in silence, fibroid disease, they women bleed and become anemic, and they're allowed to do so.
Aaron ShilohAnd they a lot of women won't talk to each other or to their doctors about how bad their fibroid bleeding is.
So I think, you know, hopefully, we can remove the stigma and the shame from it and and get more patients treated and not have them feel that same, you know, shame of what's going on.
They don't have anyone to talk to.
You know?
And listen.
Aaron ShilohThe treatment's not for everyone.
I just wanna be clear.
I mean, I get patients who come in with a single painful thrombosed, which is clotted external hemorrhoid that have a hard time sitting, and those patients probably don't need this.
They need supportive care.
We give them medications and do what's necessary for those patients.
Aaron ShilohBut for many patients who have internal hemorrhoids, which is a large number of people Yeah.
And those especially that are bleeding, we know how vascular those are.
They are prime candidates to have this minimally invasive treatment done and, you know, completely change and improve their lives.
Scott BennerIt's fantastic.
And it felt like I it felt like I went to lunch and came out.
Do know what I mean?
Like, it it I wasn't in a hospital or, like, it just I, you know, I went into the front of your clinic.
They took me in the back, got me set up.
Scott BennerYou said, hey.
I'll be right there.
You were working on somebody else.
You I think you were doing someone's fibroids, honestly.
And and you said, hey.
Scott BennerWhen they come out, you know, you'll be next.
And they cleaned up the room and brought me in, and I I felt like I was home, like, two hours later.
It was crazy.
Yeah.
You know?
Aaron ShilohYeah.
You know, moderate sedation is what we've been what we use.
I mean, to your point, some patients are sleepier than others.
The you know, because the fibroid embolizations take twenty minutes, those patients tend to remember nothing.
Because, hemorrhoid embolization can take forty five minutes to an hour depending upon how many arteries are done.
Aaron ShilohYou know, sometimes patients are a little bit more awake, but the beauty of it is that the procedure itself is not painful.
You know, the warmth that you experience during the procedure is from the injection of the IV dye.
Right.
I myself have experienced it.
I've had CAT scans for other reasons, and even if you get an IV injection of IV dye in your arm, it makes you feel warm in your pelvis and like you peed yourself.
Aaron ShilohSo when you're directly injecting the dye into that area, it definitely feels warm.
So that's very common, but from a painful standpoint, I think you would attest that it's not a painful procedure.
It's all done using image guidance, tiny little hole, and what you felt was me probably holding pressure after deploying a device to close the artery.
Right.
We can actually do the procedure from an artery in the wrist, which means that you don't have to have your groin access.
Aaron ShilohI'm still favoring the the leg, but because of various factors, there's, different shapes of catheters that the groin lets me have more options.
Scott BennerMhmm.
Aaron ShilohWhereas the wrist, you're stuck with one type of catheter.
If it doesn't work, then you have a problem.
Scott BennerListen.
There was bruising at the site, like, that but that was the extent of like, you would have not known.
I listen.
I came home.
I ate something.
Scott BennerI took a nap.
You know, I felt, you know, to say pain is even wrong.
Like, I think I took Advil for or Tylenol for a day or two just for the local, like, I don't know Right.
Soreness at at where you went in.
There was some, you know, there was some bruising, and the bruising was gone in a couple of weeks.
Scott BennerThere was this one thing.
I can't believe I'm just gonna say this to you, but I'm going to anyway.
I haven't had a chance to ask you about this because it it occurred to me after I I met with you as my follow-up.
Is this common after something like this?
Gosh.
Scott BennerI can't put I'm gonna look away from you when I say this.
Randomly, at least a dozen times, the head of my penis has gotten very warm out of nowhere.
Almost like there was, like, more blood flow down there.
Is there anything about what we did that would change it?
It stopped now, but it happened for a few weeks in a row afterwards.
Scott BennerAnd I'm wondering, is there anything about changing blood flow that could have changed that feeling or that it's didn't I guess that's what I'm talking
Aaron ShilohIt's possible.
Look.
I'd have to rereview your particular case because I don't have it memorized.
Scott BennerRight.
Aaron ShilohBut I think I embolized at least one or both of your middle rectal arteries.
The arteries that supply that area are also very, very close to the arteries that supply the penis Mhmm.
The pudendal artery.
And so it is possible that by reducing the flow there, it increased the flow elsewhere.
And so there is a possibility that by shutting down one spot, more flow went in another spot.
Scott BennerRerouted somehow.
Yeah.
Aaron ShilohSo there is a possibility because those arteries the the superior rectal arteries are entirely for the rectum.
They come from the arteries to that area.
Right.
The middle rectals are derived from arteries that in also, like I said, near arteries that supply the skin inside your groin and, of course, you know Mhmm.
Some of your your penis testicles, etcetera.
Aaron ShilohSo it is possible.
I haven't heard that particular
Scott BennerWell, should have been just somebody sitting else brings it up.
Maybe they just don't wanna tell you.
Aaron ShilohMaybe they didn't wanna say.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But it is it is possible.
Scott BennerInvoluntary wreck.
It's nothing like that.
It's just it just would get warm and then stay warm for ten seconds and then go away.
And I'd be like, this is interesting.
Is this gonna happen forever?
Scott BennerBut it just it stopped, and and doesn't happen anymore.
Aaron ShilohWell, I'm glad it stopped.
I I I I'll have to think about it more, and I guess, you know, at some point, I'll get back to you.
But I and what I'm what you're suggesting and my origin my initial thought is what I just mentioned is it's just some redistribution of flow.
Scott BennerWell, you'll be happy to know that two different AI models agree with you.
It's because that's what that's what I I didn't wanna bother you, so I just asked there.
Aaron ShilohYeah.
Scott BennerYeah.
Is there anything that we're leaving out or anything we're not telling people?
Like, I wanna make sure they understand if they have this specific issue, how impactful I think that what you do is.
And I I just wanna make sure we feel like we've covered it.
Aaron ShilohThe only thing I would say is so if you wanna come in and be evaluated, whether it's me or someone else, number one, not all rectal bleeding is hemorrhoids.
So let's just make that clear.
Mhmm.
So one of the things that we're very careful about is not to make assumptions.
Most of the time, particularly in patients who are of an age where colonoscopy will be warranted, if they come in and say, like you said, I'm bleeding a ton, and I say, have you had a colonoscopy and they're 55 years old?
Aaron ShilohThe answer is no.
They will I will not do anything until they get a colonoscopy.
Not to say that they don't have hemorrhoids.
It's very common.
And even if I did an anoscopy and I found a hemorrhoid, I don't like to make assumptions.
Aaron ShilohYou can certainly have two problems simultaneously.
So unexplained rectal bleeding and change in bowel habits should be evaluated for, you know, colorectal cancer.
Number one.
I just wanna make that clear.
Not every bleeding is hemorrhoidal bleeding.
Aaron ShilohThere's other problems.
Scott BennerRight.
Aaron ShilohOnce that is excluded, then we can focus our attention on the hemorrhoidal problem.
So if a patient as far as, like, what's a consultation look like, if you were to come to me as a new patient like you did, I would would like to see a recent colonoscopy report.
So let's say you had one in the last year or two.
It showed no problems, but internal hemorrhoids.
You're cleared.
Aaron ShilohIf on the other hand, you haven't had that, what we will usually do is do an anoscopy, which is basically, as you pointed out, a small speculum.
It looks like a piece of plastic that you can insert into the rectum.
It's only about as this width and length of a finger.
So for me, it replaces the rectal exam.
I would rather see with my eyes than feel with my finger because I think I have a better sense as to what's going on.
Aaron ShilohSo we do that, determine if you have a hemorrhoid, if you have another problem or not, and then we can discuss what options there are.
Sometimes patients should have some what's called conservative management, change in their diet, medication before we proceed immediately with this particular treatment.
There are patients like yourself who I know no amount of steroid cream or suppository is going to change their outcome.
But there are people who it's their first episode of hemorrhoidal problems.
It may not be in their best interest to jump right in to something to fix it.
Aaron ShilohThey may get relief with something else.
So there are some patients for whom I prescribe medications to try first to see if I can alleviate their issues just medically conservatively without immediately diving into doing something.
So just to be clear, there are other things that we need to think about.
We don't immediately make assumptions.
But if we get to the point of saying you have chronic internal hemorrhoids, your bleeding is, you know and many patients are like you.
Aaron ShilohThey failed rubber band ligation.
There there are really very few options.
And as you pointed out, when someone messaged you about a friend who or husband who had the surgery, it's it's no joke.
It's really no joke.
And compared I know you might have had a little hematoma or bruising in your groin, which doesn't happen to everyone, but it's unfortunately happened to you.
Aaron ShilohBut it's it's, a minor consequence relative to you.
I'm sure you did test to the change that's then happened in your life after that.
Scott BennerListen.
I stood up in a paper gown and hugged you.
I I and then I've I've I'd do it again.
I'd come if you called me right now and said you needed somebody to run your trash out, I'd I'd come do it for you.
So I I can't tell you how how thrilled I am.
Scott BennerI mean, just to not think about it anymore or or to even to be able to tell you that for the last six weeks, I just go to the bathroom.
And I'm not there forever, and it's not like you're pushing something around something else than hoping that it doesn't explode afterwards because it's really what was happening.
You know?
I was on all kinds of, like, you know, taking, like, softeners and stool.
I was trying everything I could to just avoid when it was gonna happen, and I just I couldn't tell listen.
Scott BennerI I you know, I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna make an ad for you and put it in here because I appreciate it so much.
But where, would you want people to go?
Is it a website, or how would they find you?
Aaron ShilohSo yeah.
I mean, there's many ways to find us.
You know?
Number one, we're if you just type in USA hemorrhoid centers, it it should be the first thing to pop up, though.
I just think it's important that we get the word out there, Scott, and that we, you know, find a way not just to educate patients, but but primary doctors.
Aaron ShilohSo I hope that yourself, and I'm hopeful that some of my own other patients go back to their primaries and say, hey, man or woman.
What excuse me.
What's up?
I I wish that, you know, you had thought about this and sent me to this doctor or someone like him sooner.
Yeah.
Aaron ShilohOr why did I have to suffer for years this way?
Scott BennerYeah.
You were very clear earlier, but I'll say that, you know, it's if you go you know, I'm gonna use the fibroid thing as an example.
By the way, all those fibroid questions came from my wife, so you might be meeting more people in my family.
You really gotta do your your your diligence and and figure out what's best for you.
As far as this internal bleeding from this these hemorrhoids go, my experience has been nothing but positive, and and I can't tell you how happy I'm I did it.
Scott BennerAnd and I really do appreciate you taking the time to come on and talk about this.
Aaron ShilohThat was I appreciate that a lot, Scott.
I was just telling someone the other day that, you know, I feel like I'm I mean, I could do the math, but I'm, like, 70 to 80,000 procedures in.
I should probably be glowing in the dark at this point, but I'm not.
And, you know, there is something to be said, and especially in this particular field with the hemorrhoids, experience does matter.
I know just speaking for myself, I feel so much better about it now than I did five years ago.
Aaron ShilohAnd like we discussed, you know, in the hospitals, we do some other rather complex things as well.
And to be able to do these procedures for people in an outpatient setting without the hospital, and it's an I mean, I know you had to pay some out of pocket, but you can only imagine what that cost would have been like inside a hospital with the amount they charge.
So it's an order of magnitude.
You could have added a zero to the number because that's how it works.
You know, everything there is exponentially larger.
Scott BennerI was stunned that my insurance company told by the way, Cigna, go to hell.
I was stunned that Cigna told me that and apparently, I it was maybe the only major insurance company that wouldn't have covered this procedure for me.
Lucky me.
But whatever.
So Cigna said to me, well, the next time the bleeding happens, just go to the ER, and they'll embolize it.
Scott BennerAnd I went, yeah.
Somebody who doesn't know what they're doing.
And it was like I was like, why and I said, isnt that gonna cost you more money than if I just go let doctor Shiloh do it?
And everyone I spoke to along the way said yes.
They all agreed with me.
Scott BennerLike, nobody was like, oh, no.
You're crazy.
They were all like, yeah.
It's gonna be cheaper if he does it.
It you're gonna have somebody who's more, you know, practiced at it, but this is what we'll cover.
Scott BennerSo next time you bleed, run into the ER, you know, and yell help me.
And I was like, I
Aaron ShilohThe only problem and that that's legit.
I told you you could have gone to the ER, but here's the rub.
With hemorrhoidal disease, the problem is it isn't actually as much as you were bleeding, it's not an arterial bleed.
Arterial bleeds are really brisk and are life threatening.
Scott BennerMhmm.
Aaron ShilohAnd so what would happen is you'd go to the ER, they would try to find the bleeding.
And if we and when when the way that we treat GI bleeds is if we do not see the active pumper blood coming, like, pumping out Mhmm.
We don't embolize.
Right.
Because one of the unfortunate things with GI bleeds is that they're intermittent, and they're off and on.
Aaron ShilohSo number one, you could have walked into the ER.
By the time you were seen, by the time you got back, by the time they called IR, by the time they came in, hours passed, hours passed, hours passed, you stop bleeding.
They show up, oh, we can't find it.
Or on top of that, as I said, it's a vein, not an artery.
So they would never have found this source of bleeding anyway, and you would have left having been through all that, having undergone a procedure, the bleeding would not have been found.
Aaron ShilohIt would have cost the insurance company $50,000 for your ER visit, the testing, the procedure, yada yada, and all to end up in the same place again, which is the fallacy in all of this.
Scott BennerYeah.
And the same exact spot, by the way, is is hopelessness and bleeding.
And so I just once I found you, I said, I don't care what this takes.
I'm doing this.
Like, I ended up a serious conversation with my wife.
Scott BennerI was like, look.
The insurance company isn't gonna pay for this.
I'm like, what do you I'm doing it.
Like, we have to figure this out.
You know?
Scott BennerAnd she's like, well, Merry Christmas.
And I was like, awesome.
Aaron ShilohI do wanna mention though that there are other insurances that do Yeah.
Cover this procedure, which is also a little problematic.
I mean, first of all, Medicare, which is obviously one of the the largest insurer in The United States.
But there are others I'm 99% sure.
I'm trying to remember if Aetna does or doesn't, but like other Blue Cross Blue Shield currently does.
Scott BennerYeah.
Aaron ShilohYou know, I think United does.
I mean, we're talking about the big insurers.
United, Blue Cross Blue Shield.
I'm I'm not a 100% sure about Aetna.
I'd have to recheck that, And it doesn't I don't want your listeners to believe that all insurance doesn't cover it.
Aaron ShilohIt absolutely it the it's dependent on each individual.
Scott BennerI've had three insurances as an adult an employed adult, and two of the three of them would have covered this, not the one I currently have.
So I was like Right.
Awesome.
Aaron ShilohAnd you would never and and listen.
You would never know that.
You'd have to think about every medical plan that's potential.
And you probably talk about insurance coverage with with, you know, what you deal with on a regular basis because I'm sure that some insurances don't wanna pay for the better pump and others do and and different treatments that are out there and are available for some patients and not to others and, you know, the the different tiers of of health care and medicine that we live with dependent upon this insurance concept that we've come to accept, which is probably a podcast for another day.
Scott BennerIt certainly is.
Aaron ShilohYeah.
It is really challenging that we do that.
But I will say we work with everybody.
We try to find solutions.
You know, even in situations like this, we offer, you know, cash options, payment options to the best of our ability.
Aaron ShilohIt's it's you know, I was told, I wish I could do something different.
Unfortunate even in your case, you do appear to peer, and the person falls back on their policy statement, and you speak to a doctor who's not in your field, might not even have any experience with this, and they read the piece of paper and say, we believe this treatment is what's called e and I experimental and investigative, and that's it.
Yeah.
And they're paid by the insurance company to be the adjudicator.
It's like in a trial where where I'm sue you in a civil lawsuit, but you pay the judge.
Scott BennerYeah.
The
Aaron Shilohjudge decides you pay them, and they decide which way it's going to go.
Like, how is that going to go?
Scott BennerYeah.
Aaron ShilohIt's clear you're in a position where it's not going to be in your favor.
Scott BennerYeah.
They offered me a peer to peer review, and I was like, in what world is that gonna end up in my favor?
It's it's you making the decision still.
Aaron ShilohProvide them with all the data that we want and which we have and we will do, but at the same time, they dismiss it as not enough.
And I think I discussed this with you, the kind of work that they want people to do.
Would you have undergone a what's called a sham procedure where I stick a catheter in your arteries to your rectum, but I don't embolize it?
And then I ask you later a month to three months, six months, a year, how are you doing?
And compare you to a patient who actually got an embolization, then take a do a thousand of those patients.
Aaron ShilohSo five hundred get embolized, five hundred don't, and then make an assessment.
Like, what patient's going to sign up to maybe have a sham procedure?
Nobody.
Not in The United States at least.
Scott BennerYeah.
No.
I hear you.
Well, doctor Shalu, I again, let me thank you very much for doing this.
I'm taking up enough of your time, but I do really appreciate you, helping me unburden myself the rest of the way from any embarrassment I felt about this because it's gone now.
Scott BennerI as I sit here and record this, I know how many people are gonna hear it.
So I I I know I'm not embarrassed anymore.
And I hope nobody else is too.
I hope if you're having a problem like this, that you don't run around hiding and and doing what I did.
I hope you just go get it taken care of.
Scott BennerIt wasn't that bad to show doctor Shiloh my butt.
Only had to do it one time.
And then, when the What's
Aaron Shilohnot yet?
Scott BennerYeah.
Yeah.
What yeah.
He's like, don't and then once we did the procedure, honestly, it was a it still felt like a very private thing.
Like, it wasn't, you didn't feel exposed during it or anything like that.
Scott BennerIt was it was really it just kind of easy to be perfectly honest.
So
Aaron ShilohOne last thing Yeah.
Scott, I'd like to say is that, I'm honored by every patient, and I'm honored to have been here with you.
And I also will offer to connect with anybody even if it's a matter of redirecting redirecting them to where they need to go.
You know, my goal is to help as many people as possible, with this disease and certainly the others that we described a little earlier as well.
Scott BennerYeah.
Reach out.
Doctor.
Shallow is a solid guy.
So thank you, man.
Scott BennerI really do appreciate your time.
Happy New Year.
Aaron ShilohHappy New Year.
Thanks for having me on.
Final Thoughts and Resources
Scott BennerOf course.
It's my pleasure.
I wanna thank USA Hemorrhoid Centers for sponsoring this episode of the Juice Box podcast and for all they did for me.
The pressure and seeing blood, it's not anything anybody wants to talk about.
But they're also not things you should ignore, which is why this episode is brought to you by USA Hemorrhoid Centers.
Scott BennerThey're leaders in nonsurgical hemorrhoid care.
They helped me, and they offer hemorrhoid artery embolization, which is a minimally invasive outpatient procedure that reduces hemorrhoid symptoms by treating the underlying blood flow rather than just masking discomfort.
USA Hemorrhoid Centers was a huge part of why I feel better, and they have multiple locations nationwide.
They accept most major insurance plans and make specialized care more accessible.
So if you've got some of the problems you heard me talking about today and it's interfering with your comfort, confidence, or daily routine, it may be time to explore a modern treatment option.
Scott BennerLearn more at usahemorrhoidcenters.com.
Get the relief that you deserve.
If you're new to type one diabetes, begin with the bold beginnings series from the podcast.
Don't take my word for it.
Listen to what reviewers have said.
Scott BennerBold beginnings is the best first step.
I learned more in those episodes than anywhere else.
This is when everything finally clicked.
People say it takes the stress out of the early days and replaces it with clarity.
They tell me this should come with the diagnosis packet that I got at the hospital.
Scott BennerAnd after they listen, they recommend it to everyone who's struggling.
It's straightforward, practical, and easy to listen to.
Bold Beginnings gives you the basics in a way that actually makes sense.
Have a podcast?
Want it to sound fantastic?
Scott BennerWrongwayrecording.com.
#1803 After Dark: Phoebe Needs a Break
"Phoebe" from episode 1322 shares life after divorcing a mentally unwell partner—raising children, managing type 1 diabetes, and rebuilding stability, identity, and confidence after years of emotional strain.
Companies that Support Juicebox
Key Takeaways
- Recognizing Abuse: Abuse isn't just physical; it includes emotional manipulation, extreme financial control, isolation from family, and digital stalking.
- The Importance of Safety Planning: Leaving a volatile relationship requires careful planning, which can include securing firearms, seeking support from trusted law enforcement or friends, and calling domestic violence hotlines.
- Mental Health and Relationships: Severe untreated mental health conditions in a partner, like suspected Borderline Personality Disorder, can create a deeply chaotic, unpredictable, and frightening home environment for both the spouse and children.
- Managing Diabetes Amidst Chaos: Trying to successfully manage children's Type 1 diabetes is incredibly difficult when basic safety and rest are constantly compromised by domestic turmoil.
- Finding Resilience and Moving Forward: Healing from an abusive relationship is a slow process, but securing distance, finding therapy, leaning on supportive communities, and taking life one day at a time can ultimately lead to peace.
Resources Mentioned
- Juice Box Podcast After Dark Series: juiceboxpodcast.com
- Medtronic Diabetes (MiniMed 780G): medtronicdiabetes.com/juicebox
- Contour Next Gen: contournext.com/juicebox
- National Domestic Violence Hotline: 800-799-7233 or text "START" to 88788
- Camp Sweeney Giveaway: juiceboxpodcast.com/giveaways
- Juice Cruise 2026: juiceboxpodcast.com/juicecruise
- Wrong Way Recording: wrongwayrecording.com
Introduction & Sponsor Messages
Scott Benner Here we are back together again, friends, for another episode of the Juice Box podcast.
Phoebe Hello. My name is Phoebe. I am the mother of two type one children, ages 10 and 13.
Scott Benner If you're living with type one diabetes, the After Dark collection from the Juice Box podcast is the only place to hear the stories that no one else talks about. From drugs to depression, self harm, trauma, addiction, and so much more. Go to juiceboxpodcast.com up in the menu and click on after dark. There, you'll see a full list of all of the after dark episodes. If you're looking for community around type one diabetes, check out the Juice Box Podcast private Facebook group.
Scott Benner Juice Box Podcast, type one diabetes. But everybody is welcome. Type one, type two, gestational, loved ones, it doesn't matter to me. If you're impacted by diabetes and you're looking for support, comfort, or community, check out Juice Box podcast, type one diabetes on Facebook. Please don't forget that nothing you hear on the Juice Box podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise.
Scott Benner Always consult a physician before making any changes to your health care plan or becoming bold with insulin. Today's podcast episode is sponsored by Medtronic Diabetes, who is making life with diabetes easier with the MiniMed seven eighty g system and their new sensor options, which include the Instinct sensor made by Abbott. Would you like to unleash the full potential of the MiniMed seven eighty g system? You can do that at my link, medtronicdiabetes.com/juicebox. Today's episode is also sponsored by the Kontoor Next Gen blood glucose meter.
Scott Benner Learn more and get started today at kontoornext.com/juicebox.
Family Background & Type 1 History
Phoebe Hello. My name is Phoebe. I am the mother of two type one children, ages 10 and 13. And I have three other children that are all teenagers. Correction.
Phoebe The oldest is an adult now, and she has celiac.
Scott Benner Oldest has celiac. Two younger the two youngest have type one?
Phoebe Mhmm.
Scott Benner Do they all have the same dad?
Phoebe Yes. I have five children. They all have the same dad. The dad has his mom's sister was diagnosed with type one as an adult. She was in her thirties or forties.
Phoebe Mhmm. And his grandfather was also diagnosed with type one as an adult, thirties or forties. I think it was after one hepatitis infection and another it was a flu, I believe.
Scott Benner Okay.
Phoebe Now We did not know they had type one. His own mother didn't even know that they had type one. She just thought it was type two diabetes.
Scott Benner How about that? So for people listening, I think you're gonna find Phoebe very, interesting, and you didn't see me just make air quotes because her name's not actually Phoebe. That's what we're calling her. But why did we choose Phoebe? It's the same name she used in episode thirteen twenty two.
Scott Benner It's an after dark called borderline. My remembrance of that episode is strong, which is a little uncommon for me because I make so many of them. But I remember you battling through your husband's, mental health issues. Mhmm. Worrying working out how to, you know, get your family to a safe place, and I I it was really something.
Scott Benner So if you're listening to this now and thinking, I'd like to have an understanding of that, you know, check out thirteen twenty two as well. From there, Phoebe and I will start talking. What gets you back on the show? Like, what after because that was a I mean, seriously, a very honest conversation could not have been easy to have. I didn't find it easy to be a part of, and it wasn't my life.
Scott Benner So what makes you wanna come back and do it again?
Phoebe I don't know. Just hearing you say that makes me a little You're like furry.
Scott Benner Well, did it? They made you sad.
Phoebe Yeah. We have come a long way. And, also, on the type one side, I I did wanna say, I have a cousin with type one diabetes, and I have also two cousins with Hashimoto's. So and none of them they're all from different families of my dad's side. We're kinda we're rather blindsided by that, but I don't remember when that would well, I do remember when that was recorded.
Phoebe I think we recorded that episode in, maybe May 24.
Scott Benner Okay. Yeah.
Phoebe Yes. I was just on the at that time at the edge of deciding to leave my marriage of twenty three years.
Scott Benner Mhmm.
The Decision to Separate
Phoebe I had been we got married in 2001. We moved all over the country for his career, like, checkerboard across The United States. I'd stayed home because it was I always wanted to be a stay at home mom, and it was hard to do. We were moving so often when the kids were younger. Yeah.
Phoebe So I got my dream of staying home with the kids, it's a little bit of a golden handcuff, because when it took me a long time to realize that I was in a emotionally, verbally, financially abusive marriage, I thought. And I was I think it was 2022 when I finally it finally clicked what was going on. So when we recorded that podcast episode, I was trying to decide to leave him. And I I think the next day, we talked about it. I am a Christian.
Phoebe So I went he had asked me to talk with our pastor together about saving our marriage. And I think it was the next day after we recorded the podcast, and I had to look look the pastor in the eye. Not my I don't think I looked at my husband. I had I told him several times I wanted a separation. Mhmm.
Phoebe So it was a very scary time because very our lives are very volatile. Not physically abusive, but there are a lot of threats of self harm that he had, a lot of anger. It's pretty scary
Scott Benner Yeah.
Phoebe Time. I was very afraid at that time.
Scott Benner Can I ask you, does it seem scarier remembering what it was like to live through it, or does it seem scarier in hindsight now that you're separated from it and have some distance? That makes sense?
Phoebe Yeah. It it kinda depends on the day. It was very scary at the time because I was always just jumping out of my skin. I go you know, I go to the gym, and I hear the door close. And I'm, is that him?
Phoebe Because I found out he was tracking me, what I was doing. I had a whole safety plan in place. I start looking for work to earn some money in my own bank account, and he knew everything that I was doing. You know, finding emails I didn't think he would find. And, so I was just very anxious real
Scott Benner yeah. You're making me anxious, and we're just remembering it. You're not going through it anymore.
Phoebe No. And it it's kinda funny because after we separate, we had that talk, and he left. And I had no idea what was gonna happen. And we had some pretty bad things go down after that involving the police. I had to call the police several several times, and then he even was my dad.
Phoebe And his brother had come to visit because my I think it was just the two no. It was all three of our oldest kids. They were going off to summer camp that week or so. And one of my cousins I have a cousin that was murdered a couple years ago by like, ten years ago by her husband. So my one cousin I had spoken with on the phone.
Phoebe I called her because her brother had killed himself. It's it's horrible.
Scott Benner Oh my god.
Phoebe So, yeah, it's just a it was a train wreck. He had bipolar disorder and had killed himself, so I called her just to check up with her.
Scott Benner Mhmm.
Phoebe And then for some reason, I told her about what I had going on. And, you know, we hung up the phone, and then she called me back. She's like, I'm calling your dad. Your dad needs to know because my family didn't know. She said, I'm so worried that something's gonna happen.
Scott Benner Yeah. Well, can we can we pick this up? Let let's do this.
Phoebe Yeah. I'm all over the place. I'm sorry.
Scott Benner You're fine. Phoebe, listen. Everything's fine. If anyone deserves to be all over the place, it's you. So, but let me say let me say this.
Scott Benner Right? We're recording I think you're my last. Am I am I a lunatic? Am I recording on New Year's Eve? Anyway, you're one or two of the last you're one of my last couple of interviews of 2025.
Scott Benner Right? Mhmm. And you and I did this, originally, what, '24. So it's been '24 to '25. I mean, it's coming up on two years, you know, in a couple of months since you and I recorded this.
Phoebe Mhmm.
Scott Benner I still, like, remember your situation, which, again, I'm gonna tell you is kind of uncommon because I record so much content that, like, sometimes people say to me, like, oh, you remember this happened? I'm like, I I don't know what you're talking about. And then I go back and I listen. I go, oh, I remember that. That was awesome.
Scott Benner But yours really sticks with me. And even just this little recap here for the first few minutes of your conversation reminds me of of why it it stuck with me so long. But I wanna make sure I understand the timeline. You and I record.
Phoebe Mhmm.
Scott Benner The next day, you're in the church with your husband seeking counseling that he wants you to seek. You're not really down with that. And then you, you know, say I wanna get separated. I kinda wanna move forward from there because you said there were things that happened. Like, so for people who think like, that's the that's the end of the story.
Scott Benner He left and everything was fine. Like, let's go back to there for a minute. First of I can't imagine how difficult it was to sit in a room that is clearly designed for you to sit there and listen and then go back and be be a good girl and and be a wife and let this guy do whatever he wants to do to you. And so you gotta fight through his desire for you to do that. I'm assuming the pressure that the priest is sitting there.
Scott Benner Right? Like, and you don't wanna let God down and and your your marriage and all that stuff.
Phoebe Well, the children is because we have all these children.
Scott Benner Yeah. So all that pressure is there in the room with you, but you still, like, persevered and said, no. It's all good. I'd like you to leave. Right?
Phoebe Yes. I said I I looked at a pastor in the eye and said, I I want a separation. And I I do believe that my husband, he was the one who called the meeting. I believe that he did it to get me to back down
Scott Benner Yeah.
Phoebe By talking to the pastor. And that was his, and, yeah, the pastor pastors are wonderful, but most cannot counsel through, especially in an abusive marriage. So he he's against divorce. He said, Phoebe, can you spend more time with your husband? Is what the solution was going to be.
Phoebe And I said, I want a separation. So he stormed off. I went home, which is terrifying because I have no idea what's gonna happen. And I don't even remember cut you
Scott Benner off for a half a second? I feel bad doing this. Mhmm. You laid out your entire situation to that pastor, and he said, hey. I have an idea.
Scott Benner Why don't you hang out with the guy a little more?
Phoebe Yes. Thinking that we needed more time alone, some dates, that kind of thing. We got all these kids.
Scott Benner You were honest with him about all the stuff that you explained to me in the in the episode. And that and he's like, you you guys probably just need to go to a movie.
Phoebe Yeah. Yes. And that I mean, I I know everyone has varying degrees, but I had gone on my own to talk to the pastor several times. And when I went on my own, he was more sympathetic. At one point, he said, yes.
Phoebe You may need to separate. But then coming in together
Scott Benner Pressured him too, do you think?
Phoebe Yes. Because I think by by my husband saying, just want my wife that that's what he's was said. I just want my wife. I think that made him think, oh, he really wants to work on this. So
Scott Benner Was there any time during that meeting that your husband admitted to doing any of the things that you said, or did he just go, I don't do that when you brought it up?
Phoebe He wasn't even asked on any of that.
Scott Benner But, I mean, you said it in front it would be like if it would be like if three people were in a room, and I said, hey. Do you see that person over there? They heat up a a metal stick every night and stick it on my ass and burn me. And then I said to the third person, can you please help me? And then the guy said, what'd he say?
Scott Benner Is that true? Does he does he redirect to your husband, or does your husband just sit there and go, and then we move on and you should go on to a movie? Like, I'm trying to understand the counseling part of this.
Phoebe Yes. I and I don't remember all the details. I I don't think we went into all of the things that would happen as what was going on in our home. I had told the pastor that, and my and the pastor, he knew
Scott Benner Yeah.
Phoebe That he went my husband was threatening to kill himself. He he did because he he did go in on his own to talk to him, and he did admit to that, which on the surface, it's the I mean, it's bad.
Scott Benner Yeah. I gotta tell you, Phoebe. Like, the if I'm remembering your problem correctly and from this, I the only thing that was gonna fix that problem was a long walk off a short pier, not catching, Marley and me. It just I I don't know. It's it seems crazy to me.
Escalating Threats and Safety Planning
Scott Benner Okay. So you stuck up for yourself and you're like, you know, I'm getting the hell out of here. Like, everybody go. What happens then? He comes home, packs a bag, says ta ta or No.
Scott Benner No. What what goes on?
Scott Benner The Kontoor Next Gen blood glucose meter is sponsoring this episode of the Juice Box podcast. And it's entirely possible that it is less expensive in cash than you're paying right now for your meter through your insurance company. That's right.
Scott Benner If you go to my link, contournext.com/juicebox, you're gonna find links to Walmart, Amazon, Walgreens, CVS, Rite Aid, Kroger, and Meijer. You could be paying more right now through your insurance for your test strips and meter than you would pay through my link for the Contour Next Gen and Contour Next test strips in cash. What am I saying? My link may be cheaper out of your pocket than you're paying right now even with your insurance. And I don't know what meter you have right now.
Scott Benner I can't say that. But what I can say for sure is that the Kontoor Next Gen meter is accurate. It is reliable, and it is the meter that we've been using for years. Kontoornext.com/juicebox. And if you already have a contour meter and you're buying test strips, doing so through the juice box podcast link will help to support the show.
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Phoebe No. I don't remember all the dates, but I I do know he he was around, and he had all kinds of erratic behavior. One thing and this it was all in pretty quick succession. One day, I walk my dog. There's an elderly man in the neighborhood that our dogs have play dates with.
Phoebe We go pick the dogs. We play in the backyard together. Mhmm. So the gentleman used to come to our house and play in the front yard with the kids, but he didn't like that. My husband didn't like that.
Phoebe And the guy my friend, he picked up on it. So I didn't wanna give up my dog walks. Dogs need to play, two golden retrievers.
Scott Benner K.
Phoebe So one day, he just came in the house while I was cooking in front of my kids, yelling that he is going to go pound on the guy's door and give him a piece of his mind, like, man to man. And this man is, you know, older gentleman, like, retirement age, and my husband is was bigger than him. And I told him and said, I am calling the police if you go down there. We you know, we had a verbal argument, and he left. And that night, I called I have a law enforcement friend, and I told him what's going on.
Phoebe He's like, he said, I'm not your knight in shining armor. He I love we we are good friends. Him him and his wife were good friends. But his point was, I cannot rescue you. You need to call the police.
Phoebe You need to file a report for all this because he just threatened to attack an elderly man, and you know it if he does it. And you and I are complicit in knowing about this behavior, this
Scott Benner Yeah.
Phoebe Thought process he has. So I did I filed a report that night. He forced me to. He said you have twenty minutes to do it. If you don't call, I'm gonna do it for you.
Phoebe Mhmm. I got the lieutenant talk from him. So that was one thing that happened. My kids got ready to go to camp, and they leave very early in the morning. And my husband said he was gonna drop them off at camp because that's the last time he's gonna see them.
Phoebe He's gonna kill himself while they're at camp. So but he didn't he doesn't get up early. I drop off the kids at camp, and then my dad and my uncle come into town to stay with me because they were afraid for me being home alone with just our two younger children.
Scott Benner Yeah.
Phoebe And that's that's when it really blew up. He and I had always known in my head I was completely done if he took our money. So he he changed the, withdrawal on our accounts. So there is no money to pay the bills. No.
Phoebe The mortgage, they they just started bouncing. It was all an automatic payment. He just switched it, and I didn't have any income yet. I think I had interviewed at the school by that time to be I'm a food nutrition. I'm a cafeteria lady now, but I hadn't started working yet.
Phoebe I was gonna start in July. So never would part pick an argument in front of our family, but he did with my dad about the money in the bank accounts. He started arguing with me. My dad was in the kitchen, and my dad would try to talk to him, and he just blew off my dad and took off. So at this point, my dad was only gonna be there for a week, and he had known about the threatening of taking his life.
Phoebe And I think in the first episode, I told you he had, loaded, like, a year previous to this when it all started, and I realized it was a mental health issue. He had loaded a gun in front of me in the night Mhmm. And said he was gonna kill himself. So my dad he says, I'm not leaving until you have all the guns out of your house. So my dad and I packed up the guns, and we brought them to my friend's house that I talked to on the phone.
Phoebe He's law enforcement.
Scott Benner Yeah.
Phoebe Has a gun safe. So we drove over there, and I didn't know he was tracking me. He had taken off one of the tracking the family. I think it would be in Life 360. He had gotten out of there, but we were parked in my friend's driveway getting ready to leave.
Phoebe And I get a text message with a map circling where I was. He's like, whose house are you at, and what are you doing there? Which really freaked me out because
Scott Benner Yeah.
Phoebe He's law enforcement, a former SWAT team, and the whole bit. And my my friend had told me, if if anyone, you know, comes to my door threatening my family
Scott Benner This could be a different situation than if the old man gets that knock. Right?
Phoebe Yeah. Yes. He's not gonna mess around. So he's like, you you have to do something about this. He he cannot you know, because they were started they're watching for his vehicle out there, you know, at this point because they were kinda involved in it.
Scott Benner Yeah. This guy's not looking to put your husband down on the in the front yard. Right? So he doesn't want that problem.
Phoebe No. But he he would if he Yeah.
Scott Benner No. I hear what you're saying. Yeah.
Phoebe Yeah. Because that you don't know what's gonna happen. And he's still living with us. It's just crazy. And then, we go pick up the kids at camp.
Phoebe I do, anyway. That, in the evening, they get back at night. It's a long drive. And my dad and my uncle were still there. My uncle, they drove a camper van.
Phoebe They're camped out in our driveway in the van. And he was they're out with my two younger girls, the two ones with diabetes. And he came in. He knew they were there. And my neighbors I had a good friend across the street.
Phoebe I have a I had a whole bunch of people watching out for me. Mhmm. My neighbor across the street, she texted me because she could hear she must have heard saw him come up, and he just laid on the horn blasting the horn about the money thing. I don't know if you want me to tell you all this.
Scott Benner I no. Are you kidding me, Phoebe? This is fascinating. Because this moment that you're talking about, how far removed from the conversation with the pastor is this?
Phoebe How much time?
Scott Benner Yeah. Between the pastor conversation and this blowing the horn.
Phoebe Mhmm. Probably about ten days.
Scott Benner Okay. This is my My point is is that you go through more in a week and a half than most people would be able to deal with in their entire life. And you're talking about stories of, like, standing in the kitchen and screaming and yelling. Like, you fight like, the kids are the kids like, hey. This is just Tuesday here.
Scott Benner Mhmm. Or yeah. Because this is how everything always is. So you don't need to, like, walk me through the entire thing. How long was it from the pastor's conversation?
Scott Benner By the way, I just I love that he's like, you should just date a little more. I mean, is anyone listening to this? Wait. From there till your husband moving out, your ex moving out. Is he your ex now?
Scott Benner Yes. Okay.
Phoebe He is.
The Immediate Aftermath
Scott Benner Till your ex moving out, finally. How long was that time till he got out of the house?
Phoebe It was actually that this next morning that he looked for an apartment because I did end up calling the police
Scott Benner Okay.
Phoebe Because there's another threat made in front of all of our children that just came home from camp.
Scott Benner Does he have a mental health diagnosis or just or is it just your assumption?
Phoebe He does. He he does, not, psychiatric because he, in into this buildup, I did have him see a psychiatrist, but that that was all we could get him in for, was for medication. He did agree. And all this time for the first time with that handgun up until now, I told him I wanted him to get counseling. And he saw a couple therapists, but none of it ever sticks.
Scott Benner Mhmm.
Phoebe I've been told, like, borderline personality disorder, which he at the he agreed with at the time. He said that makes sense. And most likely, a narcissistic personality disorder, which they commonly will go together.
Scott Benner Mhmm. Yeah.
Phoebe When when we got married, I knew nothing about mental health. And
Scott Benner Now you know too much about it.
Phoebe Yes. I would know way more than I would ever want to know, but he never wanted to see therapy. I knew when we got married, was very naive. Yep. We don't need a therapist.
Phoebe I won't ever see a therapist, which sounded fine to me. But
Scott Benner When he's gone and it's clear he's moved out, the is there any reduction in your stress or anxiety, or does it just shift to a different problem?
Phoebe Well, he moved out. He he got in an apartment that next day after the night with the police coming again. He his argument I was very shocked. He was arguing with the police. They did not take him.
Phoebe They they just said sleep in different rooms. They that's what they told us.
Scott Benner Have you guys tried Marley and me? Jesus. Yeah. Where do you live? Actually, you can't tell me that, but go ahead.
Scott Benner I I apologize.
Phoebe No. Yeah. So he he got the apartment. It took a week for him to leave. He would not leave until and we had more issues.
Phoebe I didn't call the police again, but he found another firearm that I had not found. And I had to try I tried getting it away from him late one night. The last night he was home, my oldest daughter and I, I slept on the floor in her bedroom with him, like, stomping around, throwing stuff around, pounding on the door, mask texting me. And I think it was that next day was the last day. And that was the scariest time, I will tell you, from the time he agreed to get that apartment until he was gone.
Scott Benner Right.
Phoebe It was pretty horrible. But he immediately got on dating apps and started dating, and he had one girlfriend. He ended up buying a house immediately. She moved in with him, and that was very short lived. He's he's the one that had a problem with her.
Scott Benner Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. He shacked up with somebody, and he kicked her out?
Phoebe Yes. He he he knew within two weeks that he bought this house, and she moved in. And he knew within two weeks. And he was coming to me because I I have a friend. I I that's another whole story.
Phoebe But he just heard me talking to him. He was like, you treat him like a child. You sound like you're talking to a child. Because I, you know, I I run over the the Aftershocks headsets a lot, and there's one headset where, you know, people can hear my conversation. Yeah.
Phoebe So he's heard this, and he's like, sounds like you're talking to a child.
Scott Benner Well, a I'm assuming you're it sounds like you're talking to a dog you're trying to get not to attack you.
Phoebe Yes.
Scott Benner Yeah.
Phoebe Or or a child. Yeah. Because you you have to placate. You kind of you're a handler of types.
Scott Benner Yeah. You're you're managing the mental illness and the emotion and all of the So crazy narcissistic things that he's thinking and and all the the demands that he's made and all of the, times he's told you he's gonna take his own life. Like, right like, that's all in your head every time you're speaking to
Phoebe Yes. Yeah. It is. And she yeah. He knew right away, and he would come and talk to me.
Phoebe It's like to find, like, advice. I I couldn't believe it, but you are
Scott Benner Oh, wait a minute. Long after he moves out is he coming to you like you're the AI bot in in Tinder? What it what it what it by the way, does Tinder not have an AI bot? Oh, I'm having an idea. Hold on a sec.
Scott Benner Like, you're right. Because he's coming to you with his dating issues. How long after he moved out is he doing that?
Phoebe Within about three months. He he
Scott Benner Get out of here. Are you
Phoebe Yes.
Scott Benner You must have been so thrilled he was gone. No?
Phoebe Yes. I was. Yeah. He he was so focused on finding
Scott Benner A new woman to abuse.
Phoebe Yes. Yeah. And he that that was all he and he didn't even think it was weird. And and for for me, I've kinda figured out. It's like I but was in a way a parent, like a mother.
Phoebe Mhmm. You know, because you come talk to me about your problems. What should I do? How do I deal with this? And, they broken off, and it it was pretty it was not as bad.
Phoebe I wasn't so worried for our safety, but he would they call it a split. He'd mass text me and phone call, just kinda erratic behavior until he got another girlfriend. Goddamn. That was in June. They start they met in June online.
Phoebe They're all online. And she we went over there on Father's Day. I brought the kids over because they don't real they're not real comfortable going there.
Scott Benner No. Really? Yeah.
Phoebe They spend very little time. Like, like, a couple hours every few weeks. Like, he he's gone six to eight weeks without seeing them at all because he was on this dating binge trying to find a new one. So he met her in June. I brought my son over to cut his grass.
Phoebe He'd pay him for the kid to cut grass. And in August, he told me that they're gonna get married. They're getting married anytime now in January, the new one.
Scott Benner God bless. I listen. I I gotta tell you something. I've devoted the last thirty some years to the woman that's, across the hall from me right now. And Mhmm.
Scott Benner Last night with a head cold, I put together furniture. And I have less luck getting kindness out of her than your husband does out of getting out of people. I don't know what is happening.
Phoebe Yeah. He it's kind of a and he's not. I I have I crack up because I have a a friend. We went out to dinner. Her brother was there.
Phoebe He's from the North. He has a strong accent. And what he knew about our divorce, he's like, I don't understand. He's no Casanova.
Scott Benner Even if he had like, I I'm sure I've I've I was an idiot in the first episode, and they asked you if he was super handsome or had a big penis or something like that. But, like, there's nothing going on like that. Right?
Phoebe No. He he's just the average guy, and he when I met him, he just seemed honest. Like, he wasn't
Scott Benner Well, I mean, listen. You're seeing it now in real time. Whatever it is he does works because it worked on two ladies in succession.
Phoebe Yes. He has kinda he he I mean, he seems really calm and laid back, and people will say that he's just very quiet. He's good at fixing things. And as soon as he left, he started working out, and he is he looks in in good
Scott Benner shape for his. Yeah. I mean, I'm assuming he seems calm till he's loading a revolver in front of you and talking about killing himself. And then I imagine it doesn't seem so calm anymore, but by then, you're vested. You got these kids.
Scott Benner You got a life. Like, you know yeah. Right. Like, he pulls that on day 15. You're out of there.
Phoebe But Yeah. Do believe that is the rush to get for them to get married. And already, she lived in a different state a few hours away, but she moved in, and now she's not working. She's quit her job because he has this fancy house.
Scott Benner Yeah. And that's part of the scam too is to get her, like, in a situation where she's got no way to nowhere to go or no money to do it with.
Phoebe Yes. They just went on a three week tour across The United States. The kids can see she tags him all the time on her Facebook. So he they see everything that they've been up to. Very a lab a very expensive vacation that I know that he could not afford.
Scott Benner It's all part of the play to get her in. And then he'll marry her up, get her locked down, and then start screaming at her that he's gonna kill himself and that she's you know, that she's talking to a 75 year old man in a dog park, and I'm gonna have to go beat his ass. Like, that kind of stuff will start immediately. So that you think the rush to get married is that he's having trouble holding all that in?
Phoebe I think so. I I think he can only do it for so long. And from when I've read, the older people get it, it's harder to
Scott Benner Hold the crazy down.
Phoebe Which makes sense. Yes. Well, because you don't care as you know, older, you get you're you're more relaxed about things, and I think it's harder to to hide it. And the
Scott Benner Can I say real quickly, like, I I wouldn't make light of mental health, and I don't have any lighthearted feelings about it, but that's big picture when I look at the world? I would I would like people like your ex husband to get as much help as possible and that he's not out there affecting other people or, you know, having a worse time in life than he could be. It's when you talk about it on this personal level. Like, when I'm just thinking about you and your children. There have been times in this conversation that we've had just today where I thought, oh, man.
Scott Benner It would have been great if he would have killed himself. Like, at least you could have got the hell out of that. But, like, no. It wouldn't have because then that would have hit you and you would have you know, there would have been some poor person with mental health whose life would have been lost. And on top of all that, you would have felt guilty about it for the rest of your life probably for not helping him.
Scott Benner God knows. I don't know how that would happen to you, but I'm pretty sure it would have. There's no easy way out of this. Like, this is a rock in a hard place times 30. But I'm not kidding you, Phoebe.
Scott Benner If you just took the last thirty minutes of this conversation and took it to a screenwriter and said, turn this into a ninety minute horror movie, it would be an action thriller. Like, it it really would. It it's it's insane, and you don't see it that way as I'm sure you do now better than before, but, like, you're so steeped in it. You don't know, like, you don't know you're in a Scream movie. I'm waiting for you to, like, go up to this other woman and just yell, run.
Scott Benner Like like but but You know?
Phoebe Know how it it is because if if I chose to say anything, she would just think I'm some kinda jealous woman trying
Scott Benner to get
Phoebe him Yeah. Back and not believe me. And it is sounds horrible, but he is much better with someone because I've not those splits that I talked to, I've not had one. The last one that I had to deal with was on Easter Sunday, and that was a horrific time, very traumatic for my children. That was just over the phone because they heard him on the phone.
Scott Benner Yeah. Well, that's pretty
Phoebe My youngest, she has not forgotten these things. She remembers I think she was seven when some of this went on. She's you know, she knew that her dad wanted to kill himself, and she's told people this. My 18 year old son even just now, he'll because they do see him off and on. They like working on trucks by two boys, and their dad knows how to fix trucks.
Phoebe And he's he's like, should I text dad to see if I can use this? I don't wanna make I don't want him to get angry. He's 18. And then we you know, we're we're I'm visiting my parents right now. I'm at their house.
Scott Benner Mhmm.
Phoebe And does grandpa have I'm he's learning welding in school. Does grandpa have a welder? Can I ask grandpa if I can use his welder? I don't want him to get angry. That's coming from an 18 year old boy.
Scott Benner Yeah. That's crazy.
Phoebe The youngest like, they knew she had told the youngest that they were getting married. The dad has never had a conversation with them about getting married. So the she'll ask me things, and I'll say, well, you need to ask your dad because I don't know. I don't wanna make him angry. You know, they will see him.
Phoebe They will eat dinner with him.
Scott Benner You're in a room with a dog on a chain. Everything you think if I move, this thing's gonna bite me. Yes. Right. It's just yeah.
Scott Benner It's it's terrible. Like, there's nothing good about it. Let's fast forward so we all don't just feel like jumping off the bridge. Okay.
Dating After Abuse
Phoebe Yes. Because it does get better.
Scott Benner It gets better. Get to the part where you when's the first day in this process where you thought, oh, wow. Things are turning around. How long does that take to happen, and then what happens next?
Phoebe Well, it it does take a a while because after he left, I I was tired. I slept a lot.
Scott Benner I bet you are. Jesus Christ.
Phoebe Because you're not sleeping a lot. It's very hard to get good sleep. So I started a job. My kids were homeschooled as a homeschool mom. I put my kids in public school.
Phoebe I go to work, and for a while, I would cry every day driving to work. Just I don't even know why I was crying. I just cry the whole way to to work. And then, you know, I'd come home. I'd take a nap.
Phoebe We'd eat something. I'd nap until it's time to get the kids to bed, and then I'd go to sleep. But I was and this is kind of my current situation. I I mean, I still I'm doing things around the house, but it was just you're so tired. But I was in a support group for long term partners of people dealing with this kind of thing.
Phoebe As in this group is men and women all over the world, actually, Australia. There's a lot in Australia, Canada in this group. So last fall, we got divorced in December. He moved out, I think, in July 1 was when he moved out. So there's a gentleman from the group that messaged me just because he's a Christian fellow.
Phoebe He was asking me something, and he has been separated. So the podcast and I don't know when it aired. Or
Scott Benner I think it went up in October '24.
Phoebe Yeah. We had started chatting that fall, and I put the podcast in my group. I have not ever I won't ever put it on my social media or broadly. Sure. I'm very selective who I let hear this whole thing, but he heard it.
Phoebe And he, might I I or this gentleman, he heard this. He's a he's a writer. So he his wife has borderline, and they had a lot of issues. He is in my parents' house right now is what I'll tell you.
Scott Benner Wait. Are we date are we dating?
Phoebe Yes. He and, like, six weeks ago, he asked my dad. He called my dad to see if he could date me. I'm 51. He's 49.
Phoebe He lives in another state. I he listened to my podcast, and we were just, like, random, not not important questions. But when he listened to the podcast, he said, I wonder if I could be in her life after hearing my story on the podcast.
Scott Benner Oh. So Hey. If you ever are happy, I think I I I think it's gonna be because of me. I love this. What a great story this is for me.
Scott Benner Yes. I'm just teasing some.
Phoebe Yeah. Well, you know that and that's why I'm here again. But
Scott Benner Oh, you're here to say thank you. Go ahead, please. Let me be quiet.
Phoebe But he's he's actually, it's a slow process because he I think he's a year ahead of me on getting out of his marriage. It takes a long time to get over all this. We're not rushing off to get married. We're not gonna get married next week or anything. And he's just meeting my children now.
Phoebe This we this is a neutral place for him to meet my children. Like, we visited each other a couple times in the last Oh,
Scott Benner this is lovely. Summer. Congratulations.
Phoebe Yeah. He he well, he's writing a fictionalized story of this because I had never heard of borderline personality disorder. And especially and I'm a Christian. I will keep going to church, but that is one area where churches are really they really struggle is with the mental health.
Scott Benner Yes. No. I mean, I I figured that out. He was like, have you guys thought of splitting a hotdog together? Thanks, pastor Bill.
Scott Benner Yeah. Did I tell you the story when I took a when I took a pillowcase full of firearms to my friend's house to lock them up and still didn't find them all? Who do think? They should head out to the A And W, do a drive up, you fucking idiot? Yeah.
Phoebe I know. It it it's very it's very sad. I mean, it's just out of their realm. They're not that's not their area
Scott Benner of expertise. I don't I I think I could show this to somebody from Mars, and they'd have better advice for you than that. That's ridiculous. By the way, full, I I would like it if they used the when your when your new friend's writing, he can say Juice Box podcast. I'm happy with that.
Phoebe Yes. Well, we had already talked about that.
Scott Benner So Juice Box capitalized, box is lowercase b one word.
Phoebe Yes. Well, we he we will have that in there. I mean, I'm I am he's doing all the work, but we're it's a story together of two recovering people because it is a long process.
Scott Benner Imagine you're ever gonna be recovered from this. I just think there'll be versions of it where you feel better as you get older.
Phoebe Yes. It is yeah. It's a a ugly
Scott Benner Goddamn right.
Phoebe Even I've had people say, ask me, well, was he hitting you? And if you if you say no, even today, and I'm not I'm talking secular people, they will they don't consider abuse until you're getting hit.
Scott Benner Yeah. You go pish posh. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Scott Benner No. No. No. Just waving a gun around. Right? That's okay.
Scott Benner Yeah. Yeah.
Phoebe Yeah. And even with that, there are I it it is shocking.
Scott Benner It Well, then let me let me be kinder to the pastor. Apparently, there's a lot of people who don't understand anything, not just him. I I mean, honestly, like, any bit like, seriously, if I took your conversation from now and the other one and just chopped it up into three minute bits, randomly chopped it up into three minute bits, I bet you I'd hear I bet you I'd hear 20 things that you'd say that I would make me think, oh, you should get away from that person.
Phoebe Mhmm.
Scott Benner I can't possibly have more compassion for you because, like, to hear you, you're such a lovely person. And I do remember that, you know, you got together when you were young, you were locked in, married for life, like, that kind of, you know, kind of Christian value thing. And, you know, you put up with a lot thinking this was just the way it is.
Phoebe Mhmm.
Scott Benner You know, it's you you don't no one deserves this. And even the way you're talking about it now is a credit to the kind of person that you are. I sincerely hope that that gets to all your children, you know, slowly, but I don't think there's any doubt. Like, there's I mean, that is dad gonna be mad? Well, my grandfather who's never been angry at me once in my life, will he be mad if I ask him to borrow something?
Scott Benner Like, that's that's therapy right there. Somebody needs to go to talk to somebody. You know what I mean?
Phoebe Yes. And they have the boys have a
Scott Benner Good.
Phoebe Very good therapist. The kids well, all but one, she won't do it, but they're all in therapy. And a new this gentleman and I was convinced I'm I'm not ever gonna date anyone. We were friends. We're just chatting.
Scott Benner Mhmm.
Phoebe Chatting, chatting, chatting, and then talking and then video calls. But, and I will say it is not I know it's not the same situation because a lot of people and that is the concern. My like, my therapist, you don't wanna jump into anything because you're you're very prone to getting into the same thing. You go from one if you don't do do the work.
Scott Benner Your radar detector on this might not be great.
Phoebe Yeah. Yeah. That was the concern. My the therapist I see knows, borderline personality very well. That's why I chose her.
Phoebe And he, the person I'm with now, he's done therapy with me and her together virtually, and he is complete opposite. He is therapy, relationships. How are you feeling? It just
Scott Benner We're talking about your gentleman caller, that guy.
Phoebe Yes.
Scott Benner Yeah.
Phoebe Yeah. Yeah. Yes. He he everything is different. It it's like it I
Scott Benner can't should definitely have somebody vet him for you. That's a good idea.
Phoebe I Yeah. I have I have had multiple people vet him.
Scott Benner So May I say, I find this to be even more important because this story where I helped you get back into the world, if that guy ends up putting you in a trunk and driving you to Poughkeepsie, that's gonna feel like my fault. You know what I mean? Like so, yeah. Let's let's really bet him really well. Make sure he's a rock solid guy.
Scott Benner Okay?
Phoebe Yeah. Yeah. He he he is. I I didn't even know people like that existed. Honestly, because I I should have known I mean, looking back, hindsight is twenty twenty, isn't it?
Phoebe But you should be able to talk to someone about everything and how you feel. And one thing I've realized is I don't even know how I'm feeling a lot of times, and I've had to learn how to do that because it didn't matter how I was feeling before. You have to just keep doing. And I've got two kids with type one
Managing Diabetes Amidst Chaos
Scott Benner Yeah.
Phoebe Insulin pumps pumps and Dexcom. So all of this is going on, and I'm still managing their diabetes through all of this. And now I'm doing it all alone as a single working parent with the two kids and managing my own health and then the mental health. You know, juggling therapy appointments, and kids are learning how to drive and first jobs all at all at the same time.
Scott Benner Sure. Sure.
Phoebe So it is
Scott Benner Well, listen. First of all, the crying on the way to work, I'd keep doing that. That's a good emotional release. I I I'd make that part of my day if I was you. I wonder too I and I know not enough about this to say this out loud, but it's a podcast.
Scott Benner So here we go. I wonder if you guys have, like, a version of Stockholm syndrome. Like, do you think that you that you, you know, basically, he was your captor and and you feel bad for him at this point? Like, do you know what mean? Like, does that happen after time where, like, even though all these crazy things are happening, you're like, oh, the poor guy is not well.
Phoebe Actually, I I think there is some of it because, in the guy I'm with now, he has been able to turn off more of his emotion towards his person. There is a still a sense of help. They they have two adult children together, So Mhmm. There is some help there. He doesn't feel as bad as I do.
Phoebe And I don't really know about feeling bad. I I can't even
Scott Benner describe it. I meant your kids and you with your ex. Like Yes. Yeah. That feeling of, like, you're protective of him.
Scott Benner But what were you trying to say about the new guy? I'm sorry.
Phoebe You get this ingrained. It's like that you're naturally a caretaker. I'm naturally a caretaker.
Scott Benner Yeah.
Phoebe He's naturally a caretaker. He's able to turn it off more than I am. And I don't know if it's because he he's a male or more analytical.
Scott Benner I have to tell you, wife would have punched your husband in the face and left, I'm gonna guess, 25 ago. The second time that he said something that's sideways, she would have been like, what's going on here? And then that would have been the end of it. I can't even get, like you know what I'm saying? Like, she's tough.
Scott Benner And, like and you're you're so nice. You're so nice that you let bad things happen to you. Have you ever looked back on that? Like, I know you got married really young. Right?
Scott Benner Were you 18?
Phoebe No. No. Not that yeah. I I didn't have a lot of dating experience. Just some casual dating.
Phoebe So he was the first real
Scott Benner Person you date.
Phoebe But boyfriend.
Scott Benner But my my question is is were you just raised to be very accommodating to people, or is that your personality, you think?
Phoebe Yes. And we see it I'm here now. My, my mother my mom has been sick. Right before we came, she was diagnosed with, leukemia that they're not gonna treat because of her her age. And our family it my dad is, like, the sweetest, most wonderful man.
Phoebe Everyone just loves my dad.
Scott Benner Mhmm.
Phoebe So I'm here. You know, my brothers came over. We had a big dinner. My mom says, you're in charge of all of it because I can't do it, and I'm trying to keep my dad from doing too much work. And my friend, he notices too.
Phoebe He's like, no one is even doing the dishes. You're doing all the dishes. You're doing everything all by yourself. And that's how I I grew up. So
Scott Benner Yeah.
Phoebe I I love my family. But now that I'm older and more mature, I can see how it all started.
Scott Benner Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's really something. You've been on a journey. Yeah.
Scott Benner It's not half over. I mean, you've already lived three lives, to be perfectly honest with you. Wow. That's something.
Phoebe There's a lot of self awareness. You have to really learn yourself and pay it.
Scott Benner How do you keep up with the diabetes stuff since I like, when I interviewed the last time, you had did you have one kid with a hypo one then?
Phoebe No. I we had two. Okay. 02/2018 and 2021, And I I hate to say it, but a lot of times we are just winging it. I I mean and now I'm working.
Phoebe I have I'm forced to, you know, make sure pumps are charged and, you know, pump sites, you know, before going to work.
Scott Benner Mhmm.
Phoebe It's not perfect. I hear these people, they have these excellent kids' a one c's or five, and they eat no carbs, and they
Scott Benner just Those are white those are those are white ladies doing TikToks in their spare time. Don't worry. You you got a good reason. You're fine.
Phoebe Yes. Yes. But we're not we're not running any alarm bells or anything on the kids. I I mean, they're doing fine. And in fact, the oldest, she's 13.
Phoebe I went this is a big deal. I went away for three nights last fall, and she would she changed her sister's pump for her. I think it fell off or something. So she I do most of it, but the I'm the oldest she can do it. She just chooses not to yet.
Phoebe So that's what we're working on. But she's gonna go to camp this summer, the 13 year old. Yeah. And that reminds me that we need to push. She knows how to do it.
Phoebe She just doesn't like to do it, and I think that's kinda normal.
Scott Benner Let me slip this in here, just because you said that I've already given away two slots at Camp Sweeney in Texas, but I I have four more to give away. So when you hear this, if juiceboxpodcast.com/giveaways is still up, you there's still time to enter to to, win a slot at Camp Sweeney. Okay. You know, for those people who, enjoy and you absolutely could enter as well.
Phoebe Yeah.
Scott Benner Yeah.
Phoebe Yes.
Scott Benner Well, my goodness. Like so okay. Let's dig into this for a little bit. So right now, your type ones are how old?
Phoebe 10 and 13.
Scott Benner 10 and 13. The older one is a little more immature about it, little more wanting help, that kind of stuff?
Phoebe Yeah. She she can do it, but she she'll do it if I if I'm not there. She'll do it, but does not really wanna take ownership of I'm talking about pump site changes and Dexcom. She's more I don't understand why, but she's more likely to change her pump site than the Dexcom. She doesn't wanna change her Dexcom.
Phoebe So I don't know if it's the if it's hard for her to reach. But I do know the g seven, sometimes that button we have a hard time with it. We for us, we have to really press it into their skin so it doesn't always release as easily as the g six, and that might be part of what's going on with it.
Scott Benner Think it's a a laziness or a a desire to have you involved or something like or anything like that? You think it's more functional?
Phoebe It could be functional. She's dealing with some things. I'm learning about her. She she's my very challenging child. I don't know what she has going on.
Phoebe We've, had a few evaluations for her. She's very smart.
Scott Benner She's not taking after her dad, is she?
Phoebe No. I'm not sure
Scott Benner what direction that's. You're trying to figure that out. Yeah. Well, I mean, that's the other thing is that, like, this is I mean, that's gonna be in your mind for the rest of your life too. Right?
Scott Benner Like
Phoebe Mhmm.
Scott Benner Yeah. What what are you looking for there?
Phoebe I'm not sure. We had a evaluation with a child psychologist, and they called it, autism and selective mutism. I've I've heard the selective mutism before, but she since I put her in public school, she has friends. She talks to everyone is just shocked because she talks to people. She wears makeup.
Phoebe She's very pretty. She knows she's very pretty. So I and she just told me on the strip. She says, I don't have autism. I wanna do that again, and they will see how smart I am.
Scott Benner She's like she's like, hey. I I feel like I failed that autism test. I think I could do better.
Phoebe Well And and I think it's because she's noncooperative. She wouldn't speak Oh.
Scott Benner At all. Oh, I see.
Phoebe So I think my guess is she is very smart. And this is, like, kid terms. She likes she says she she likes to rage bait me is what she says.
Scott Benner She's like, I'm just screwing with you, lady. Watch this. Ugh. Awesome. Yes.
Scott Benner Yes. Did you say, hey. I should get a pass from stuff like this, but, know, it ain't it funny? That's not how it works. Yeah.
Scott Benner Your kids don't see your situation. They see it as their situation.
Phoebe Yes. Yeah. And she doesn't really talk about she out of all the kids, she's the one that doesn't talk about what has happened.
Scott Benner Really?
Phoebe Yes. Yeah. The younger one that's type one, she I do a lot of her stuff, but she can put a Dexcom on me, and she can put an infusion site on me. So I think we'll be for some I think they just don't wanna do it themselves. And I maybe it probably depends on all kids, but it just seems like they're not.
Scott Benner Yeah. I I think that's a fairly common thing. I don't I it would it'd be easy to commingle that with all your other issues, but I don't know. That just seems like a pretty common thing for kids growing up. Like, sometimes they just want a break.
Scott Benner You know what I mean? They're not looking for I think it's funny the way you know, sometimes I tell people, like, try not to see diabetes right away. You know, like, people are like, you know, my kid's sick. What do you think it has to do with the hype one? I'm like, hey.
Scott Benner It could just be sick. You know? And and then similarly here to you, like, I can see everything that happens to your kids. You could think like, well, what does this have to do with how they grew up and with our situation? But maybe it's just them being their age and, you know, just not wanting to be bothered putting on CGMs and pumps.
Scott Benner That's pretty normal.
Phoebe Yes. And that is my goal is to get them to function as adults. Especially the 13 year old. I don't it it sounds horrible, but I I think it's because we've had five kids. I homeschool them.
Phoebe I think I will be okay on them being launched into adults because I can see the light of me potentially having my own life again.
Scott Benner So Good for you. It's lovely. Ain't that nice? Yeah. I think you deserve it.
Scott Benner Maybe just give them all give them all $50 and tell them to go find their way. Like, hey. Listen. Yes.
Phoebe Well, that is your job as a parent to work yourself out of a job so they can live their own life. I mean, that that's what I'm working on.
Scott Benner Good for you. How come you haven't given up?
Phoebe Well and that is here's a plug for you because I have listened to you, and that, one thing I admire the most about you is you talk about resilience. And I don't know how to put that in my kids, and that's something I worry about. I because when I see my dad now and hit, like, every day when we were kids, study hard and get all your puzzles. Be the best you can be. That's what my dad would say.
Phoebe So every day, like, we have a lot of rotten days, and the next day, I just get up. And my mantra is do better today. You know, today will be better. That's what I try every day is that the next day it's gonna be better. So somehow, I don't know how, but I don't know if it's an inherent that some people have this.
Phoebe I I'm not sure. But I see I worry about my kids because I don't know that I see that, and I don't know if that comes maybe it doesn't come until you're an adult. I'm not sure, but that's my one worry.
Scott Benner Yeah. I think the thing that comes for them will come for them. Like, you know, they've had a different experience than you've had and the things that they'll be able to take from it and apply or, you know, the things that are gonna burden them. I I don't know that you can really impact all of that. You know?
Scott Benner It's happened now. Everything's in motion. You gotta gotta let it play out. Mhmm. You know?
Scott Benner And give them the best tools you can, and, hopefully, they'll pick some of them up. That's it. Yeah. I I'm with you. Like, I the other day what was I thinking the other day?
Scott Benner Arden and Kelly were sitting together, and I thought, oh my god. Like, Arden's, like, still in college, and we're only, like, two years removed from when, like, Kelly was pregnant. If I jump ahead two years, am I gonna find Arden to be a person who could have handled that or not? Like, is that just a function of the world and how it is today or her experience growing up? And there's part of me that says, like, you know, I have my successes where I have them because of the, you know, the things I had to go through, but not everybody makes it through those things.
Scott Benner So it's even hard to say, like, oh, I'm glad that happened to me because look, you know, because iron sharpens the steel, blah blah blah, like, you know, like, that whole thing, like, what if it would have, like, killed me? Like, what if it would have ripped me apart? Like, then that's not valuable. And at the same time, she hasn't had experiences like that. And what if not having those experiences ends up being a problem for her?
Scott Benner But then again, what if it's not? What if it turns out that the thing you were hoping for, which is for your kids not to grow up like you did, ends up being, you know, a great bonus? The problem is you're not the the problem with life and raising kids is that you're not gonna know until it's too late to do something about it. So you just have to pick a direction, be earnest about it, and hope for the best, and then look back over generations and decades and, you know, millennia and say to yourself, well, it's worked out mostly. So, you know, hopefully, it'll work out for us.
Scott Benner I mean, that really is all it is.
Phoebe You don't have any control even if you can see what path they're going on? Like and that's one thing I've learned from all of these kids is you cannot control them when they're little. You think you can control things for them, but you really can't. There's only so much you can make a kid do. So even if you see them going the wrong way, there's very little that you can do.
Scott Benner I couldn't possibly agree with you more, and I've I've tried to slip into the podcast over the years. You you meet a lot of people who are newly diagnosed, you know, as families. And the parents are right away like, you can see them. They're like, if I just do this and this and this and this and put all this in the right order, my kid's gonna have a great experience in life, and everything's gonna be fine. And I say to that, yeah, hopefully.
Scott Benner Mhmm. Like, but also you can't control the other part of it, like who they are. I think people spend a lot of time looking at outcomes and trying to decide, like, how did that person get to that situation? How can I be in that situation where my outcome is similar? But I don't think that's how it works.
Scott Benner Like, I just don't think that you can force yourself to be something that you're not. I think it's a lot of wasted time. Now the sadness is is that some people some people's parents want them to be lawyers. They end up being artists and that's a lovely story. But some people's parents want them to be artists and they end up being heroin addicts.
Scott Benner That's not a lovely story. Like, right Yeah. Like, your ex's parents probably, like, held that baby and was like, hey. Nothing but possibility here, and look what he did to
Phoebe you. Mhmm.
Scott Benner Right? And if you went and found them right now, they'd be like, I don't know. I didn't I didn't think that was gonna happen.
Phoebe No. Yeah. So And now when I talked to his mother, she said that there he was a troubled teenager. And there there's all these things, and there are kids who are troubled, like teenagers, young adults that turn out fine in the straight Right. In Harrow, but not all of them.
Phoebe And now she will say the because, we I'm in my home state right now. So the kids have seen both grandparents, but his mother just a couple weeks said we never had any problem with him, which we all know.
Scott Benner Wasn't quite well, as they get older, they start revising history pretty
Phoebe Yeah.
Scott Benner Yeah.
Phoebe Yeah. Yes. But that is just
Scott Benner She's worried god's not gonna let her in. You know what I mean? So Yeah.
Phoebe I have
Scott Benner to start backpedaling now.
Phoebe Yes. But, but the but I can't. There's nothing I can do about it.
Scott Benner No. No. No. But my my point is is that even if they saw him as troubled, I guarantee if you went back on the day that she thought, hey. Something's wrong with him.
Scott Benner If you would be able to tell her this story, she'd go, oh, that's not gonna happen. Like, you know what I mean? Like, nobody nobody thinks that's going to happen. And and I don't think that's ignorance sometimes. I just think that's hopefulness and, you know, it's just some my point is is that I'm agreeing with you.
Scott Benner You can't direct your children to be something they're not. No. There's too many variables and too much input in the world, and what's gonna happen is gonna happen. You lay a foundation and you model good behavior, and you hope they pick it up.
Phoebe Mhmm. That's the best you can do.
Scott Benner And so really all you can do, you should go off and and retire with this boy that you met in the thing and have some old people sex and and plant a garden or something like that. You know what I mean?
Phoebe I think it's probably actually better the older you are, honestly.
Scott Benner What? The garden or the sex? What were you saying there?
Phoebe Both.
Scott Benner Oh, good for you.
Phoebe Both. I would have never imagined. I and it it's too early. I mean, we're not running off into the sunset. Now we have a lot of things to get to do.
Phoebe Like, his career
Scott Benner You might wanna go slow. Yeah. It's very
Phoebe it is very slow. Like, he has to relaunch his whole career because he had a kind of a a more public image, and it is very hard to live a public image with this kind of stuff going on
Scott Benner Sure.
Phoebe In your
Scott Benner life. People pulling you
Phoebe down. Know. You never really I I think, like, we're good. I'm good now, but it it you you just you feel like you have to be careful to not
Scott Benner I would go I listen. I think going slow is a really good idea. Like, I mean, obviously, you guys have been through a lot, and I would understand trepidation. I would also understand you, you know, overvaluing the other person just because they're not screaming and yelling at you and waving a gun around. You might be like, this guy's perfect, but maybe probably not perfect.
Scott Benner He's just not screaming. You know what I mean?
Phoebe Mhmm.
Scott Benner So, yeah, take it slow. I mean but, you know, you're an adult. You can still do the old people sex. You don't have to take it. You have to take it that slow.
Phoebe Too far behind. So
Scott Benner Well, listen. Now I'm just imagining you tried to sneak off in your parents' house as a 50 year old. That's hilarious.
Phoebe It's not as easy as you would think.
Scott Benner As easy as think. I bet not. We have to go to the store.
Phoebe Yes. But we've had where we're at, we've had a lot of snow too. So
Scott Benner Oh, Jesus. So you can't do it in the car is what you're saying.
Phoebe I the only place to escape. It's got because that first episode I did I don't know if you remember. I was at my church. I went to my church to get away from the kids, and then we had the fire alarm going off. And then today, I'm sitting in there
Scott Benner In a garage. Van. In a minivan. Garage.
Phoebe I choked my
Scott Benner You're very dedicated to making this podcast. I really appreciate it. Hey. Listen. I I wanna say something because, you know, I joked a lot earlier, and I don't wanna joke.
Scott Benner If something about this podcast has helped you, I mean, you really just it it makes my day to know that. I'm really happy for you. You deserve any good thing that happens to you. You deserve it a 100 times over. So do your kids.
Scott Benner You know? Seriously, if I said something, did something, or put you in a position to whatever, you know, I'm grateful to know that.
Phoebe Yes. Yes. It has been a big help. And I was looking forward to coming and giving you an update because it is a such a radical difference where I'm at. And I am now considering, getting I might go back to school, college, either I already have a bachelor's degree, but either health care or education, maybe my master's degree to teach.
Phoebe Because the school schedule works out really well with the kids because it's just me. Their dad does not help with anything significant, so it's all
Scott Benner On you.
Phoebe Running the show right now.
Scott Benner Wow. It's a lot. Using hindsight, is there anything you could have done I'm not putting it on you. I'm saying, like, in hindsight, is there anything you could have done sooner that would have broken you free from this, like a piece of advice you could give somebody else?
Phoebe There are things that I I saw that I did not see. There there's a lot, But it this is my example. We moved a lot. The our home we live in, we moved to in 2012. And it was shortly after that I was told I'd wanna bring the kids up to see my family over the summer.
Phoebe We homeschooled. I didn't work. I think I I was stupid for not seeing it, but he'd say, I can't live without you. I will kill myself if you leave me home alone to see your family. And then, what kills me is I got divorced last December.
Phoebe My mom now has leukemia that they can't treat, and I'm just kicking myself a bit. You know, all those years I could have come and the kids could have spent more time with my family and known their uncles and but I just didn't see it. So if you live with someone who is talking about killing themselves, they they need help. You cannot save them, and that is not for you to help them out of. And I I will he he doesn't do it anymore, but I started saying when he wanted to talk when he talked about taking his life, I would say, I do I'm not equipped to help you.
Phoebe Here's a number for a hotline. And it sounds very cold, but, that is too much to have held over your head that someone's life is dependent upon you and you alone. Yeah. I should've probably twelve years ago if I had talked to someone. I should've that should've been my red flag to start working on getting out.
Scott Benner The separating you from other people who can, like, normalize your life and make you realize how crazy the thing is you're involved in, that's gotta be a big piece of it. The threats, I can't live without you, putting it on you that if something happens to them, it'll be your fault. That kind of stuff is, like those are huge red flags.
Phoebe Yes. Yeah. So that's long answer to the question.
Scott Benner But No. It's a good answer.
Phoebe Yeah. So anyone I if you are in that situation, you need to get help. It's too much to deal with alone.
Scott Benner Yeah. My gosh. I really I can't thank you enough for doing this. I wanna make sure that we've covered everything that you want to talk about, but I'm not rushing you. I'm just did you get through your thoughts, or you have something else?
Phoebe Well, I do have one other this is, not type one related, but I have had elevated a one c's, and I I've often on put on it my kids' Dexcom. I'm I'm going to see an endocrinologist in the spring, but I have when I sleep, my blood sugar goes up. When I if I just do a fasting finger stick in the morning, a lot of times it it's, like, a hundred, one twelve, one fourteen. But if I put that Dexcom on, I can see I'm up in like, up to as high as one forty overnight, like, hours after I've eaten. So I'm kinda wondering if because of my situation, my sleep has been so fractured from having type one kids, and he would wake me up at at night to argue.
Phoebe You know? So my sleep has always been really bad since the first type one diagnosis. So I don't know if it's a cortisol response. That's what I'm trying to figure out
Scott Benner Mhmm.
Phoebe If that can, like, push you over the edge into the diabetes world.
Scott Benner Oh, gosh. Yeah. So what are you doing right now? You're just monitoring?
Phoebe Yes. I go back in April. They they last summer, she tested for Cushing's, and they've checked. Yeah. I don't have any of the genetic markers for type one, but I'm over 50.
Phoebe And that's the other thing at my age. So many people say, well, everyone has die type two diabetes at your age. But
Scott Benner That's not true. Yeah. Yeah. You have you considered just everyone going to a beach and sitting down and and not just maybe living there forever? So you know what?
Scott Benner We we paid our toll already. I'm gonna stare at the ocean till it's over.
Phoebe Yes.
Scott Benner Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Phoebe Yeah. So it would be nice,
Scott Benner but Well can't hear you. Well
Phoebe So that's my other diabetes thing I'm trying to sort out.
Identifying Signs of Abuse
Scott Benner Thing you're sorting out. My gosh. I'd like to share this with everybody. So this is just a little bit of, like, back end research that I did while we were talking for the last hour. It can be really difficult to to see abuse.
Scott Benner I think that Phoebe's story outlines that. So here's some signs that you might be in an abusive relationship. There's like a doctor Jekyll and mister Hyde dynamic. The person can be charming and sweet one minute and explosive and terrifying the next minute, which makes you feel like you're walking on eggshells. If you're getting truly gaslit, they deny things that are happening, tell you you're crazy, you're imagining things, and it makes you question your own memory or your sanity.
Scott Benner Isolating you. They slowly cut you off from support, insult your friends, refuse to go to family events, or make you feel guilty for suspending time away from home. Humiliation, they put you down, call you names, make fun of you in private or public if you get upset. They claim you were they were just joking and that you're being too sensitive. Does all of that sound like
Phoebe Mhmm.
Scott Benner Okay. That, by the way, is just the first part. That's the emotional psychological signs. Physical stuff. Intimidation, blocking doorways so you can't leave a room, punching walls near your head, throwing objects to terrify you, reckless driving, driving dangerously, faster, erratically while you're in the car to scare you into a subissive situation.
Scott Benner Restraint holding you down, grabbing your wrists, pinning you against the wall during an argument, threatening to hurt you, themselves, your children, or your pets if you leave. All that sound like something that you've been through? Not the driving part? Like, is there, like, one thing where you're like, oh, got lucky there.
Phoebe Cat and mouse games. I I I kind of question the, like, the the road rage and that type of thing with with your passengers. Yes. But the threat threat to self harm that that All
Scott Benner that we do. Financial stuff. Strict allowances, giving you a set amount of money and demanding receipts for everything while they spend freely and and don't tell you what they're spending money on. Sabotage, preventing you from working or going to school, hiding car keys, starting fights before interviews, things like that.
Phoebe Waking you up when you're sleeping, not letting you sleep.
Scott Benner Oh, really? Just to make to make you unrested. Just, financial security, secrecy, hiding assets, taking out credit cards in your name without permission or refusing to let you see bank accounts. Digital signs, constant monitoring, demanding to know where you are at all times or using, like, find my friends or GPS trackers to stalk you, demanding your passwords froming you, forcing you to share your phone, your email, your social media passwords as proof that you love or trust them. Harassment, sending you a barrage of text or calls if you don't answer immediately.
Scott Benner Mhmm. Sexual coercion. Guilt tripping, uses phrases like, if you love me, you would do this, or pouting or punishing you for saying no. Ignoring boundaries, touching you when you've asked not to be touched, taking away condoms without your consent, wearing you down until you just give in to keep the peace. Yep.
Scott Benner If you're unsure, ask yourself this. Am I afraid of my partner? A healthy relationship, you may be angry, annoyed, or hurt by your partner. In an abusive relationship, you are afraid of their reaction. Yes.
Scott Benner Yep. If you recognize these signs, please know that leaving is a process that you do not have to do alone. The National Domestic Violence hotline, 80799 or +1 807997233, or you can text start to 88788. And safety planning, they can help you to create a safety plan to keep you safe while you're in this, relationship or while you're preparing to leave. Think we covered it?
Scott Benner Yeah?
Phoebe Yes. Excellent.
Scott Benner You're really brave. I appreciate you sharing this with me twice like this. Okay?
Phoebe Mhmm.
Scott Benner Is it hard that that list feels like I read your life to you. Right?
Phoebe Yes. A lot of it is familiar. He, I never had a hand laid on me. Like, my kids would say that it was a little over the top, some of the things done to them, and it sometimes it's hard to tell because you grew up the same generation I did. You know how parenting was when we were kids.
Phoebe So it's very hard to move into this new age of parenting.
Scott Benner It it does. When you grew up in the seventies, it does feel like everybody's just being super nice. You're like, what's why? Because everybody's such a baby for it. Nobody could take a backhand to their head anymore.
Phoebe I know.
Scott Benner Yeah. Yeah. No. And I it is crazy, but listen. I've been pretty you know, I I've tried to be transparent on the podcast a lot.
Scott Benner I've you know, my dad would, like, kick the shit out of me. Like, he and all he was looking for was submission. He just wanted you to stop arguing with him.
Phoebe Mhmm.
Scott Benner Or agree with him or whatever. It was pretty common.
Phoebe I say.
Scott Benner Yeah. It was pretty common. And some of that bleeds over into my personality, and then you have to, like, live through another generation and realize I can't do that and then try to stop it. And if you're reasonably sane still, you know, if you're able to hold it together a little bit, sometimes you can make those changes. But often, you know, people struggle with that.
Scott Benner You are a product of your, you know, of how you were raised and and a bit about your wiring. So, you know, that's it. I I don't I don't know another way to put it. You can you you can get a dog and pet it and love it and it'll be lovely or you can kick it and it's not gonna be lovely. And, you know, Phoebe, you got kicked.
Scott Benner So now you've now you're alone and and away from all that. It sounds to me like you're gonna be able to put something really lovely together for yourself, your this part of your life, the second half of your life.
Phoebe I sure hope so.
Finding Calm and Moving Forward
Scott Benner Yeah. I think you're well on your way. It's awesome. These kids will drag you down with their demands and financial needs. They well, they probably wanna eat every day.
Scott Benner Right?
Phoebe Yes. Yes. They wanna eat all the time. There's no there's no break, and that that's the diabetes life. It seems like every day, there's something that has fallen off.
Scott Benner Listen. If you can keep two kids with diabetes alive, then everyone listening can. I don't wanna hear it from any of you. Alright? I don't I I'm too busy.
Scott Benner Yeah? Are you? Listen to this story. My goodness. You people will make a lot of people, I hope, feel better about their situation.
Scott Benner I think a lot of people are about to hit stop and think, gotta stop complaining so much.
Phoebe Yes. Yes. Because that that last night, I had the police at at the house. They're like, you sleep different ends of the house. I went out.
Phoebe I talked to my called my law enforcement friend. I'm talking to my dad outside, and then he's now my ex. He he texts me. So and so's pump just fell off. What do I do?
Phoebe Like, you're kidding me. We are in this family crisis. In the
Scott Benner middle of a crisis, they're like, hey. This insulin pump is a problem. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Phoebe Yeah. Right. Yes. We we're gonna change change out her sight now.
Scott Benner Diabetes does find a way to, like, you know
Phoebe He never sleeps.
Scott Benner Yeah. He creeps up on his though. You know what I've learned, though? It always just feels like the worst time. It's not really the worst time.
Scott Benner It's just there's no good time for someone to tell you my insulin pump just fell off. You you know? So oh my gosh. Wow. You you I I wanna wish you a happy New Year and a great new start for you.
Scott Benner This is I'm I'm excited for you. I mean, honestly, there's nowhere to go but up. So we're
Phoebe Yes. Yeah. It's fine. That is we're on the way.
Scott Benner Your life gets worse.
Phoebe Yeah. And if we get
Scott Benner I'm just gonna assume there's someone out for you. You know what I mean?
Phoebe Well, I it it should get better. It it is a lot less chaotic now.
Scott Benner Good.
Phoebe And, eventually, this story will get done, and at least one of the kids in the story. It's kind of like he's there there's gonna be a type one in the story, and he he's like he said, I can't have what you have. No one would believe it.
Scott Benner You live one of those situations where you hear people say, if I turn this into a movie, everybody would say, come on. That didn't happen to anybody.
Phoebe Yes. It's too ridiculous.
Scott Benner Can I ask, just a a last question? If you don't have an answer for it, it's fine. But do you find it difficult to exist in a calm situation? Does your body want the the chaos, or are you happy to be rid of it?
Phoebe I'm naturally ADHD, so I do not sit still. I can't watch TV or movies. The kids want me to watch movies. It I I will fall asleep, or I just don't want to. I always have to be doing multiple
Scott Benner I mean, like, life stuff. Like, there no one's calling the cops. Nobody's waving a gun around. Do do does your body go boring, or are you, like, okay with all that?
Phoebe No. I I do like calm. Like, if I am alone very little. So when I am alone, I don't want any TV. I don't want any noise.
Phoebe If the kids are all gone, I have the house quiet. I just there there's nothing. So I do crave just quiet and calm, which I get very little of. But I do have a hard I don't sit still. And I can sleep anywhere.
Phoebe Like, we've we've flew here. So I sit in that seat, and I I'm out. I sleep through the takeoff. I can sleep anywhere.
Scott Benner I've come to realize that the fact that I can sleep through a root canal has something to do with how I grew up. I'm like, oh, this is so calm. I'm safe. Good night. Yes.
Scott Benner I've learned that while I I am good at excelling in craziness
Phoebe Mhmm.
Scott Benner I don't prefer it. So, like, when things get calm and quiet like, my family always says to me, like, oh, you get like, they all like, sometimes everybody just leaves. You know what I mean? Like, the girls get up and they're like, we're going shopping. And they'll that they're just gone for, like, nine hour I don't know how you could do that, but they're just gone for nine hours.
Scott Benner And my son will, know, be like, hey. I'm going out to play basketball. People are like, what'd you do while we were going? I'm like, oh, I just sat here. I was like, it was awesome.
Scott Benner Just so quiet and still, like, that's what I want. But I think you get confused because I don't know. I've I've lived through the the, like, domestic version of storming the beach in Normandy. I'm good at it. Mhmm.
Scott Benner And and but it's not what I want.
Phoebe So No. I I like to be busy. Like, I I crochet or in that kind of thing. But there are a lot of times now the older I get like you said, when it's quiet, I can just sit, like, in one chair and not move.
Scott Benner Stare and just and just feel feel the calmness. Right? Like, how lovely it feels.
Phoebe Yes. Yes. Uh-oh. But I I if I am in a listening situation, like, for work or something, I I have I have to do something to focus. You know, if I to be listening to something
Scott Benner Okay.
Phoebe I I I have that helps me.
Scott Benner Good. Hey. Listen. Whatever works. When I first met my wife, this is years ago now, but I I I noticed very quickly, I'm like, she's not comfortable when things are good.
Scott Benner Like, when people are happy and getting along, it puts her on edge. I think it's like she's waiting for the other shoe to drop thing. And it's she's better now, like, much better at it now. But, like, in the very beginning, I was like, oh god. When people are happy, she's like, uh-oh.
Scott Benner This is just the calm before the storm.
Phoebe Yes. I I do like calm. I do struggle with people arguing. I I don't like and I am I I will try to calm
Scott Benner people. You're like, I hate doing this again. Just stop. Okay? Yes.
Scott Benner Yes. Phoebe needs a break.
Phoebe Yes. Phoebe needs a break. Yeah. So just keep calm, and that that's all that's all I'm looking for.
Scott Benner Happy New Year. Merry Christmas. Hold on one second for me. Thank you so much.
Phoebe Sure.
Closing & Sponsors
Scott Benner I'd like to remind you again about the MiniMed seven eighty g automated insulin delivery system, which, of course, anticipates, adjusts, and corrects every five minutes twenty four seven. It works around the clock so you can focus on what matters. The Juice Box community knows the importance of using technology to simplify managing diabetes. To learn more about how you can spend less time and effort managing your diabetes, visit my link, medtronicdiabetes.com/juicebox.
Scott Benner I'd like to thank the blood glucose meter that my daughter carries, the Kontoor Next Gen blood glucose meter. Learn more and get started today at kontoornext.com/juicebox. And don't forget, you may be paying more through your insurance right now for the meter you have than you would pay for the Kontoor Next Gen in cash. There are links in the show notes of the audio app you're listening in right now and links at juiceboxpodcast.com to Contour and all of the sponsors.
Scott Benner Thank you so much for listening. I'll be back very soon with another episode of the juice box podcast. If you're not already subscribed or following the podcast in your favorite audio app, like Spotify or Apple Podcasts, please do that now. Seriously, just to hit follow or subscribe will really help the show. If you go a little further in Apple Podcasts and set it up so that it downloads all new episodes, I'll be your best friend.
Scott Benner And if you leave a five star review, oh, I'll probably send you a Christmas card. Would you like a Christmas card?
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Scott Benner You're going to have a terrific time. You can learn more or set up your deposit at juiceboxpodcast.com/juicecruise. Get ahold of Suzanne at cruise planners. She will take care of everything. Link's in the show notes.
Scott Benner Link's at juiceboxpodcast.com. Have a podcast? Want it to sound fantastic? Wrongwayrecording.com.