#1804 Dr. Aaron Shiloh
Scott talks with interventional radiologist Dr. Aaron Shiloh of USA Hemorrhoid Centers about Hemorrhoid Artery Embolization (HAE), a minimally invasive outpatient treatment that resolved Scott's severe, chronic bleeding without major surgery.
Learn more at USA Hemorrhoid Centers or call (855)546-2511
Companies that Support Juicebox
Key Takeaways
- Hemorrhoid Artery Embolization (HAE) is a minimally invasive, outpatient procedure that reduces hemorrhoid symptoms by directly treating the underlying blood flow and reducing pressure.
- Uterine Fibroid Embolization (UFE) offers an effective alternative to hysterectomies, allowing patients to shrink benign tumors and relieve heavy bleeding without major surgery.
- Many vascular issues, such as medical vein disease (varicose veins), are genuine medical conditions covered by insurance, not purely cosmetic problems.
- Interventional radiology utilizes advanced image guidance to perform complex treatments through tiny incisions, drastically reducing recovery times compared to traditional surgical methods.
- Patients must proactively advocate for their own health, as insurance companies and even some doctors may default to suggesting older, more invasive procedures or delay necessary care.
Resources Mentioned
- USA Hemorrhoid Centers
- Juice Box Podcast - Bold Beginnings Series
- Wrong Way Recording
Introduction to Dr. Aaron Shiloh
Scott BennerWelcome back, friends.
You are listening to the Juice Box podcast.
Hey, everybody.
It's Scott.
I am here to let you know that today's episode is a little different than normal.
Scott BennerI'm having a conversation in this one with Aaron Shiloh.
He is a doctor who just performed a procedure for me.
We'll tell you all about it in a second.
It's one of those things that I hope you don't need, but if you do, you're gonna really, really be happy that you've heard about this.
Doctor Shiloh doesn't just do what he did for me.
Scott BennerHe does a couple of other things.
We'll talk about those as well.
So if you're a woman, experiencing fibroids, if you have varicose veins, he does a lot of cool stuff besides what he did for me.
It's actually very interesting how he takes his talents and his skill and applies it to places that you might not normally think about.
Anyway, I don't wanna ruin the fun for you till you jump in and hear the whole story, But I appreciate you being here and listening to this.
Scott BennerI hope this isn't something you need, but if it is, pay attention because doctor Shiloh really saved my ass, and he might be able to help you too.
Nothing you hear on the Juice Box podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise.
Always consult a physician before making any changes to your health care plan.
This episode of the Juice Box podcast is sponsored by USA Hemorrhoid Centers.
Go to usahemorrhoidcenters.com to learn about the procedure that I had and much more.
Scott BennerDon't let this be a pain in your butt any longer.
Aaron ShilohHello.
My name is doctor Aaron Shiloh.
I am an interventional radiologist working out of USA Clinics Group, performing many different types of minimally invasive treatments.
I'm happy to be here today to discuss, various treatments that we offer, probably with specific attention to the hemorrhoid treatments that we offer.
Scott BennerYeah.
Doctor Shiloh has been my physician, is my physician currently, and, we're gonna talk about, what I had done with him as well.
So I really appreciate you doing this.
This is a little bit of a left turn for the podcast about what we're talking about, but I feel like it might be really important for people to hear.
So, I appreciate you taking the time.
The Path to Interventional Radiology
Scott BennerThank you very much.
Sure.
Why don't we start with a little bit about how you I mean, let's go back all the way.
You leave high school, go to college.
What do you go for?
Scott BennerWhat's the process of of becoming a doctor, and and how do you land where you are now?
Aaron ShilohSure.
So, you know, I always wanted to be a doctor, and I, went to, Penn State, here in Pennsylvania and studied biology and premedicine in the, university scholars program, and now it's called Shrier's Honors College.
From there, I was fortunate enough to attend, the University of Pennsylvania Medical School.
And at that time, I wanted to be a brain surgeon, interestingly enough.
And I sat through a couple twelve hour brain surgeries and realized that though I loved it, it was too much for me in terms of time procedures.
Aaron ShilohSo I decided I was gonna go into general surgery, and when I finished my, medical school training, I started into general surgery again at the University of Pennsylvania.
In my surgery training, one of the places I had to go to every day, literally every day, was radiology and interventional radiology.
And as someone who grew up loving video games, I got to go down to interventional radiology, otherwise known as IR, and ask them to help out with different problems that we had as general surgeons.
And I literally was there every day, and I was like, wow.
This place is cool.
Aaron ShilohThey're doing some really amazing cutting edge things through tiny little pinholes, and it felt a little bit like watching them do it, like playing a video game in the human body.
And I was like, wow.
This field is new and and advancing medicine, and I thought, well, this may be what I really wanna do.
And so I transitioned from general surgery into wanting to pursue a career in interventional radiology.
Now interventional radiology has its own residency, but back then, it did not.
Aaron ShilohAnd so I ended up having to leave the University of Pennsylvania and go to Thomas Jefferson University also in Philadelphia and start a radiology residency.
And during my residency, I got into interventional radiology, and then then I was selected to be the chief resident at Jefferson in interventional in radiology.
I'm sorry.
And then I started my interventional radiology fellowship again in Jefferson, and then, you know, finished that as well.
And once I was done at Jeff, I took a job with, a private practice group in the Philadelphia area and quickly became the chief of interventional radiology for one of the largest private practice groups in The United States.
Aaron ShilohAnd we were doing some really amazing things.
And at one point, I was in charge of 15 doctors, multiple physician's assistants, and covering about 12 hospitals.
Scott BennerHow long ago was that?
Aaron ShilohThat was basically from 2003 to 2017.
Scott BennerOkay.
So in 2003, when you say we were doing some pretty amazing things, what did that mean back then?
Aaron ShilohSo there was a lot of things that we were doing that are things you don't know about.
It was actually fascinating.
I was watching the pit recently, and they actually referenced interventional radiology.
And we're always, like, in the shadows.
No one ever talks about us.
Aaron ShilohBut, you know, things like patients coming in with a bleed from their colon or from their gut, and we can go in through a tiny hole in an in an artery and find the source of bleeding and put a little metal plug in there and stop the bleeding Right.
Known as a GI bleed.
That's basic.
Biopsies, things like you many people need a thyroid biopsy or a lung biopsy or kidney or liver biopsy using CAT scans and ultrasounds and X rays to perform procedures on people.
One of the things that I was actually most skilled at and became the leader for my group is using my techniques to do minimally invasive cancer treatments, like ablations of liver tumors, lung tumors, kidney tumors.
Aaron ShilohSo instead of taking out kidney cancer, for example, you can put a needle in the tumor, hook it up to a machine, and turn it on, and watch the kidney cancer completely disappear.
From there, we had this other really neat thing where if people have metastatic disease to the liver or or liver cancer from cirrhosis, you can embolize the liver using different techniques, sometimes particles, sometimes chemotherapeutic agents.
And the thing that I really ended up up pushing forward at least in the community around Philadelphia was, radioactive bead embolization.
So you can actually put in small glass particles that contain or they can be made of resin as well, but small particles that contain a radioactive substance called yttrium 90, and that you can then impregnate tumors with radioactive beads, and they will then radiate tumors from the inside out.
So at that time, it was being done in only a handful of places around The United States when I first started, and I brought that to the, local Philadelphia area.
Aaron ShilohAnd over the years, did hundreds and hundreds of treatments on many, many patients.
Expanding Treatment Options: Fibroids and Veins
Scott BennerSo then how do you well, I guess we should list first.
What are all the procedures that you do right now in your clinic?
Aaron ShilohThat works with sort of the transitioning.
So then around 2000, actually around 2014, I opened up my own vein practice.
In addition to doing this other job, I was also one day a week running my own practice, treating patients with varicose veins, doing superficial vein treatments, you again, ablation and minimally invasive treatments.
And around 2018, I was offered an opportunity to go to the outpatient world and move my vein practice to someone's office and start doing some of the treatments that I do in the hospital in an outpatient office setting.
Unfortunately, that didn't work out for various reasons that are not relevant to this discussion at the moment, but we basically proved that you can do the same procedures that were done once in the hospital that were super complicated could be done in an outpatient office setting.
Scott BennerYeah.
Aaron ShilohSo then I eventually joined my current company USA Clinics Group around 2020, so now five years.
And at this group, we do treatments for varicose veins, for women's fibroids, an an embolization procedure where you kill the fibroids with small particles like I was describing in the liver.
And then we started doing a new treatment called hemorrhoid artery embolization, and, also, we do treatments.
I do treatments for patients with knee pain and osteoarthritis called the genicular artery embolization.
Wow.
Aaron ShilohI'd embolize people's prostates if they get enlarged, a very common problem, BPH, and then also some arterial disease, peripheral arterial disease.
So if you have a narrowing in an artery in your leg, you can open it up with balloons and stents.
So, basically, now I do vein treatments, treatments for fibroids, treatments for hemorrhoids, treatments for knee pain, prosthetic enlargement, and and peripheral arterial disease.
Scott BennerSo you're basically either capping something, cleaning, clearing something, or delivering something with the technology.
Is that right?
Aaron ShilohThat's about right.
I mean, you know, in vein disease, mainly, we're closing problematic veins.
In arterial disease, we're opening up arteries that are not the blood isn't flowing through them.
And then in our embolization procedures, like the hemorrhoid embolization, fibroid embolization, genicular artery embolization, prostate embolization, anything that's an embolization Mhmm.
Is a procedure where either particles, small particles, or metal plugs called coils are delivered via a small catheter to the area of interest to block the flow to that structure.
Scott BennerWhen we're talking about a fibroid, so if a female develops a fibroid, they used to just they just take them out usually.
Right?
So they now you're gonna go in there and do what to it?
Like, does it come out?
Does it get shrunk?
Scott BennerDoes it, you know what's the recovery time like?
I'm interested in that procedure specifically.
Aaron ShilohSo that's a wonderful question.
I could talk about fibroids for an hour as well, but the fibroid embolization is not a new technique.
That started in 1995 in Los Angeles, and I personally have been performing them since 1998.
Mhmm.
So a couple thousand in my, you know, in my belt.
Aaron ShilohSo to your point, most women with fibroids are treated, unfortunately, still to this day in The United States by hysterectomy.
There are 400,000 hysterectomies done in The United States every single year.
The vast majority of them are on patients with benign fibroid disease.
Some of them are for cancer, and those, of course, need to come out.
But for fibroid disease, you absolutely don't need to have, your uterus removed.
Aaron ShilohThe equivalent is, to me, is that historically, you know, years and years ago, if you had heart disease, what would happen?
You'd have your chest opened up.
You'd have triple, quadruple bypass.
We probably both know plenty of people who had open heart surgery.
We all now know that the standard of care is a minimally invasive approach.
Aaron ShilohSo most patients now can be treated through a catheterization of an artery and opening up the artery in the heart.
So in heart disease, we've moved to a less invasive treatment option.
In a fibroid embolization, we catheterize an artery either in the wrist or the leg, like the hemorrhoid embolization.
Scott BennerRight.
Aaron ShilohAnd we inject small inert plastic beads called embospheres into the fibroids.
The fibroids are benign tumors, and so they don't have to be removed.
And they will shrink just like you said.
They shrink I like to refer to it as like a grape into a raisin.
So they dry up and they desiccate.
Aaron ShilohSo in my hands, most fibroids shrink under after the procedure by about 70 to 80%.
So think of, like, a tennis ball going to a golf ball.
Scott BennerMhmm.
Aaron ShilohShrink, they don't completely disappear.
On rare occasion, the fibroids come out of the body, but, you know, these are individual things that we discuss with patients when we look at their imaging, their ultrasound or MRI prior to their procedure.
Scott BennerSo if somebody's having like a blockage or a urinary issue around a fibroid, it's possible that doing this to it would shrink it enough to maybe relieve the issue they were having.
Aaron ShilohOh, absolutely.
Yeah.
Most women with fibroid disease are in their mid forties.
The most common symptom women experience is heavy menstrual bleeding.
Many many women suffer from years with this problem because they don't want their uterus out.
Aaron ShilohThey don't want a big abdominal surgery, and they aren't offered any other options, and thus they don't know about it, and they keep suffering.
I have countless women.
I treated one yesterday whose hemoglobin was four, you know, normal being 12 to 15, And she's allowed to bleed down, bleed down, bleed down, get blood transfusions, iron transfusions, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.
All because no one said, hey.
Maybe you want this procedure to stop this bleeding.
Aaron ShilohAnd so inevitably, at least currently, most of the patients arrive at my door through things like this, podcasts, social media, etcetera.
They hear about it.
They find out about it, and they come to us directly.
Scott BennerAfter the embolization, then the fibroid doesn't bleed any longer?
Aaron ShilohRight.
Scott BennerOkay.
Wow.
That's awesome.
Aaron ShilohFibroids that bleed so in fibroid disease, there it depends on the location of the fibroid.
Fibroids are classified in basically three separate locations, submucosal, intramural, or subserosal.
And depending upon the location of the fibroids determines the symptoms that they're having.
So I always tell women that fibroid disease isn't like real estate, you know, the famous quote, location, location, location.
So depending upon where the fibroid's located will determine the symptoms, not so much how big they are.
Aaron ShilohSo a big fibroid on the outside of the uterus on the front will squish the bladder and make women pee over and over and over and over again.
Every twenty minutes they feel like they have to pee, that same fibroid inside the uterus will give them heavy bleeding.
That same fibroid on the backside of the uterus will push on their colon and give them constipation or low back pain.
Low down and near the cervix will give them pain during sex, and on and on and on.
So depending upon the location of the fibroid, you know, determines the symptoms.
Aaron ShilohMany women have multiple fibroids and thus they come in with numerous symptoms leading and pain and pressure on their bladder, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.
Some women's uteruses grow to as big as five months pregnant.
Scott BennerWow.
With a five now do you do imaging prior to the procedure, or do you do you find them during the procedure?
Let's be honest.
Some health issues don't make it into your family group chat conversations, but that doesn't mean they're not affecting your day to day life.
This episode is sponsored by USA Hemorrhoid Centers, and they're changing the game with hemorrhoid artery embolization, a nonsurgical minimally invasive treatment that targets hemorrhoids without the horror stories people usually imagine.
Scott BennerNo major surgery, no long downtime, just a smarter outpatient option.
They've got multiple locations across The US, and they accept most insurance plans, so help might be more accessible than you think.
If this is something you've been avoiding dealing with, consider this your sign and take it from me as I know firsthand how life changing this procedure and company is.
Check them out at usahemorrhoidcenters.com.
Aaron ShilohNo.
Most women when they come in either have had an ultrasound beforehand or we do one on-site, and then as needed, we order MRIs to better evaluate the fibroids.
That used to be the standard of care.
We found that it doesn't change our management all that much.
So there are occasions where I get MRIs, and, they give beautiful pictures, and they really help me see.
Aaron ShilohBut when we do the fibroid embolization, we target the entire uterus.
So if you have one fibroid or you have 25 fibroids, it's irrelevant.
They all get treated at once.
Scott BennerYeah.
And I guess the million dollar question here, is it covered by insurance?
Aaron ShilohAbsolutely.
Awesome.
This procedure has been validated.
Unfortunately, you know, some procedures like we're gonna discuss are validated, but just quote, unquote, not enough for certain insurers to cover them.
How they make this decision is, not something I'm a can really sort out, but my gut is that it's a financial decision of more than anything else, and the type of studies that are being asked for or required are nearly impossible to get enough data on.
Aaron ShilohBut UFE, since it's been around for thirty years, has had numerous studies.
Scott BennerI'll talk a little more about that in a second.
What's the recovery time from the the fibroid procedure?
Aaron ShilohYou know, the UFE is actually a really amazing procedure now.
I do them in an outpatient basis.
And because I do a lot of them, they take about twenty minutes to
Scott Bennerdo.
Okay.
Aaron ShilohThe procedure's painless, done with sedation, which, you can speak to a little bit about.
But the recovery is a little bit more intense.
It it does take a good week to recover the first couple days.
Scott BennerThat's pretty great, man.
I I can't I can't tell you how happy I am to have met you.
I'm gonna go through a couple of the other ones before I get to me.
Varicose veins are is that is that a is that an insurance thing, or is that considered cosmetic?
Aaron ShilohI'm glad you asked that.
So medical vein disease treatments are covered by insurance.
It's no different than heart disease.
It's an actual structural problem in the valves in your superficial veins.
It's a very common misconception, not just by patients, but by primary doctors and everybody that it's just it's just cosmetic.
Aaron ShilohAnd I can't tell you how many patients who have suffered for years with varicose veins on their legs and swelling and discoloration who are not sent by their primaries because I'm sure they suspect that it's just cosmetic.
And so vein disease is a medical problem.
There's also a cosmetic problem, and we treat that as well.
But medical vein disease is in fact a medical problem.
Scott's Personal Hemorrhoid Struggle
Scott BennerWell, so the way I found you and, this is gonna be I don't It's not gonna be tough for me because I've practiced by talking about it in another episode.
But, you know, you and I have talked about it and I've I've talked about it here.
It's interesting.
Like, if if I would have told somebody that periodically, two, three times a year, almost randomly, I started bleeding uncontrollably for a number of hours and I couldn't stop it until it decided to stop, people would be horrified by it.
They'd, you know, they'd have a ton of compassion.
Scott BennerWhen you tell them that it comes from, you know, your rectum, then all of a sudden it's funny, you know?
Like, oh, you have hemorrhoids.
And, for my you know, a lot of my adult life, that's kinda just what I thought.
I thought, oh, I have hemorrhoids.
Like, you know, and I did all the things.
Scott BennerAnything you can think of that somebody tells you to do for it, I've done it.
And I mean from, like, simple creams and salves to, like, you know, baths and Epsom salt and significant dietary changes, significant weight loss.
Like, seriously, you Google how to treat it, I've done it, and it didn't change.
Now for perspective and because we're talking about it here, I I'm gonna tell I could tell any number of of stories, but one that I think the people listening will maybe appreciate and have some connection to is that I probably have spoken at the same event in Orlando six or seven years.
And about three or four years ago, I got done full day on my feet, you know, talking and moving around.
Scott BennerBlood pressure was probably, you know, up most of the day and everything.
I got back to my room, had some dinner.
I was fine.
Decided to jump in the shower late at night, got in the shower, relaxed, and looked down, and I was just bleeding.
And it was significant.
Scott BennerAnd I stood in the shower panicked.
I did not know what to do.
I was in a hotel room.
I thought, I can't get out of the shower.
I'm bleeding.
Scott BennerWhat do I do?
Finally, I realized because I was standing, this was never gonna stop.
Got out of the shower, just to be candid, grabbed a wad of toilet paper, you know, jammed it in my up my and, like, went over and laid on the floor because I didn't know what else to do.
It's about 11:00 at night, and I think the bleeding stopped around 3AM.
And I was like, I had to get up in the morning and get on a plane.
Scott BennerAnd I can't even begin to tell you about the fear and the panic about leaving that hotel room or getting on a plane or all that other stuff.
Right?
But once the bleeding stopped, it kinda stopped.
Then you get home, and then the other stuff comes.
Right?
Scott BennerThe the the small bits that nobody talks about.
Like, you're scared for it to happen again.
So you start restricting how you eat, how you move.
I don't wanna stand up too long.
I guess I'm just a person who has hemorrhoids, this is how they bleed.
Scott BennerYou don't wanna tell anybody.
You know?
It's you know, even it's embarrassing to tell your wife or or anybody, really.
And, these poor people that hire me to come to this event, they're gonna hear this and be mortified.
That has happened to me three times in that hotel room.
Scott BennerIt has happened to me on the cruise.
I took my listeners on last year.
It has happened to me in my house.
It has happened to me in a lot of places.
So if you see me out doing a speaking event, I probably haven't eaten for three or four days before that just because I don't wanna put myself in a position where I'm standing, talking, moving, and then need to use the bathroom.
Scott BennerIt's been significantly impactful on my life.
When I lost weight and it didn't affect it, I have to be honest with you, I was lost.
I thought, well, that's it.
This is the rest of my life.
And I started looking into the surgery, which sounds barbaric, the surgery that is commonly done for this problem.
Scott BennerAnd it's the only thing that stopped me from going after this.
It did not seem like the outcomes would be good.
You know?
And then one day, even though I had looked over and over and over again online, I never quite could find it.
I asked chat GPT one day, is this the only thing I can do?
Scott BennerAnd it said, no.
You could get a a hemorrhoid embolization.
I was like, right on.
So I looked online.
You're, like, ten minutes from my house, which made me bang my head against the wall.
Scott BennerYou know?
Came and saw you.
You asked me about my symptoms.
I remember you saying you are a perfect candidate for this, and then I went home to find out that my otherwise very good health insurance didn't wanna pay for it.
It was the demoralizing to to say the very least.
Scott BennerCandidly, that everybody understands, the company that you work for in exchange for you being on the podcast today gave me a a decreased rate, But I did end up still paying cash for the procedure, and it it's still a a hefty sum for for a normal person to pay.
But it seemed that important to me.
Can you tell people when you examine me what what it is you saw and, maybe explain to them why I mean, we call them hemorrhoids, but I don't know if that's a great way to categorize what what what was wrong with me really.
The Science of Hemorrhoid Embolization
Aaron ShilohRight.
Well, first of all, I mean, I think and you mentioned some of these things to me before, Scott, but I didn't know the extent to which you had suffered, and, you know, it's interesting what you're describing because this procedure really began as a treatment primarily for, as I mentioned to you, GI bleeding.
So you probably in the moment, and others might have gone to the emergency room at the time when you were having that fairly significant rectal bleed, and they just call you.
And we used to get called like that day and night.
GI doctors came on board and started trying to do things with a scope, but you can imagine your colon or rectum is full of blood.
Aaron ShilohHow can they see anything?
And so then years of of of practice, radiology and interventional radiology developed techniques to deal with that, including figuring out where you're bleeding from, doing a tag red blood cell scan or a CT angiogram, and then saying, oh, you're bleeding from the right colon, the, know, the small bowel, the left colon, or in this case, the rectum, and going in there with a catheter, finding that source of bleeding.
And when people are actively bleeding, we say they're extravasating or you can see literally as you inject IV dye into the artery that you suspect, you can literally see it pumping into the cone.
Okay.
And you then direct.
Aaron ShilohSo this is where I talk about it.
It's like a video game.
I have a monitor.
I have a foot pedal, X rays, and I'm watching the monitor as I'm using my fingers to manipulate a tiny wire and catheter.
And when I say tiny, they're the size of, you know, one millimeter or so in diameter, the microcatheters, to the source of the bleeding, and you plug it.
Aaron ShilohAnd it's like turning off a faucet.
It's really amazing, heroic, you know, feels lifesaving and all that, like, TV show.
Scott BennerYeah.
Aaron ShilohSo doctors like myself determined, hey.
If we can do this under extreme circumstances, why not treat people like yourself who are having intermittent yet significant hemorrhoidal bleeding?
And that's how this procedure began to be developed mostly in Europe and South America where it's easier to get things done than in The United States where, you know, you have to jump over 50 hurdles before it's somehow approved by some nebulous entity without clear guidance as to what guides their decision making.
Right.
Not enough evidence.
Aaron ShilohNot enough evidence.
Not enough evidence.
And as you pointed out, there are other treatment options.
The most extreme, which you probably would have been offered is the definitive for mortal surgery, which though you're relatively healthy guy, would have been a big deal.
And the surgery itself, you know, let's say you get through without an issue.
Aaron ShilohThe recovery from those surgeries is really, really, really difficult, and that's why lots of patients have been steered away from it either from their primaries that even colorectal surgeons are semi reluctant to do it because they know, god, this patient's going to be in awful, awful, awful pain, not just for a couple days, from weeks and months and months.
And many patients I've spoken to over the last five years who've had that surgery and other people that I know personally will describe it as literally the worst experience they can go through in their entire life.
They wouldn't wish it upon anybody else.
So for that reason, people have developed less invasive things like rubber band ligation, like injections, like a procedure that's similar to what we do, which is the Doppler assisted ligation.
But that's all because no one wants this definitive surgery, and so that's how this procedure sort of came to be.
Aaron ShilohIt is really unfortunate that in your particular case, your insurance did not
Scott BennerIt was correct.
Aaron ShilohDoes not cover it.
There are others that do, and we work very hard to try to change the narrative, and maybe things like what we're doing here will help with that, but it's and the patients will advocate, and you'll advocate.
Scott BennerBut Well, I hope so.
I'll tell you.
I mean, listen.
You're getting a a slightly lower prices.
You know, I'm happy to take that, but I am taking my platform and talking about this because you have no idea.
Scott BennerLike, I started thinking, like, I don't know how many people are going through something like this cause I never would have told anybody.
Right?
Like, had this not come up in in you know, to be completely candid, I would have never said this out loud.
And I've tried the banding twice.
I've shared this on the podcast before, but I'm gonna put it here for each.
Scott BennerI've tried the banding twice.
The banding was, like, presented to me as, like, oh, don't worry.
It's a quick office procedure.
It's not a big deal.
Blah blah blah.
Scott BennerWell, it it was a big deal when the guy pulled out a speculum.
And, you know, and I had my young like, my kid was still in a car seat the first time I did.
This was, twenty four years ago I tried this the first time.
Right?
Banding works, incredibly painful, and, you know, you're good, and then you're not again.
Scott BennerAnd then it's going to what I think I've learned going through this procedure because I tried that banding twice and I was starting to think about doing it again.
But I think what I've learned and this is really I I can't believe.
I'm having trouble saying this out loud.
Listen.
If I'm saying this wrong, you'll make it more tactical for me.
Scott BennerBut as soon as you were done the procedure, I was only out of that room for a couple of minutes.
You walked over to me and asked me how I was, and I said, all the pressure in the lower part of my body is gone.
I didn't realize I was living with so much pressure.
And then I even it happened so quickly that I thought I must be making it up.
You know?
Scott BennerBut now we're I don't know how far are we out now from having it done.
Maybe I'm a month or six weeks out of having it done.
That has been completely true the whole time.
There was pressure inside of me constantly.
I'm imagining in my mind it's from extra too much blood being in a place.
Scott BennerRight?
Aaron ShilohRight.
Scott BennerNow my question is, how far up are the things you I can't believe I'm gonna ask you this way.
From the hole, how far up was what you did?
Aaron ShilohSo that's you know, maybe this is a good opportunity to segue.
You did ask me what it looked like, and I should segue a bit into why the banding doesn't work, and what is the pathophysiology and and the actual root cause of the hemorrhoidal disease.
Why?
Why do I have this problem?
You know, you you know, and women who give birth, they get hemorrhoids and others, but you're a man.
Aaron ShilohYou didn't give birth.
You have no specific reason for having it.
And so what is the reason?
Now I can't tell you why, unfortunately, you're afflicted by this problem, but I can tell you what the problem is.
So I'm gonna try to answer several questions at once.
Aaron ShilohIn your particular case, when we did do the anoscopy and look, we see internally a very vascular vein bubble or a hemorrhoid.
Now why is it there?
Okay.
So to your point, you have your anus, then above that, you have something called the dentate line, which is where the sensitive area of the butt is and the less sensitive or desensitized area of the rectum is.
In that area, just above the dentate line, there's a tubular rounded area of tissue called the corpus cavernosum recti.
Aaron ShilohBig word.
K?
But what that is, it's a very vascular bed fed by arteries from the superior rectal arteries.
So they are derivatives of the artery called the infamous entire artery, which feeds the rectum and sigmoid colon and also part of the descending colon.
Alright?
Aaron ShilohThere won't be a quiz for anatomy.
No.
Scott BennerI appreciate this.
Thank you.
Aaron ShilohThere are arteries called the superior rectal arteries.
Now they feed that area, and inside that area are large venous lakes.
And so it can swell and decompress to assist in the pooping mechanism.
The analogy that I tell patients, I may have told you, is in the male body, there's another corpus cavernosum.
It's in the penis, and it's what allows men to get an erection.
Aaron ShilohSo men get simulated, that area fills with blood, that tissue type fills with blood, and you get an erection, and then later it decompresses.
Now that same type of tissue exists in all humans, men and women, in their lower rectum and fill swells and decompresses.
Those venous this is my best understanding of this, and the way that I think about it is those venous channels are like bricks.
And in a brick house, you have bricks and mortar.
The mortar is what holds everything together.
Aaron ShilohSo in that area, the mortar is a matrix of connective tissue that that is keeping that structurally intact.
In patients with hemorrhoidal disease, that matrix has broken down.
And because of that, there's a swelling that takes place in the venous side, and we see when we inject IV dye to do the imaging prior to the embolization, we see a lot of blood flow into that area.
Too much blood flow.
Just an increased vascularity.
Aaron ShilohSo what you really are having there is like an arterial venous malformation.
So it's fed by big arteries, but the end outcome is a vein.
So the other analogy that I probably told you and I tell patients too is that the hemorrhoid is like looking up in the ceiling and seeing a brown spot develop a wet mark in your ceiling.
Right?
So you don't call a painter to call them and say, hey.
Aaron ShilohI don't like how that looks.
I'd better paint that up.
Of course not.
We both know that if you do that, it's just gonna happen again.
So that's what banding does.
Aaron ShilohBanding literally paints over the spot or replaces the ceiling tile without getting to the root of the problem.
So what we're doing is we are getting to the source, to the root cause of the increased vascularity to that segment of rectum by putting that catheter in and directing the microcatheter into all four superior rectal arteries and blocking them with metal coils to reduce the pressure.
And by depressurizing it, it allows those venous side on the vein side to decompress.
It's no longer inflated.
So that hemorrhoids like a balloon that you inflated with your lips, and it's constantly being inflated by that pressure.
Aaron ShilohAnd as soon as you cut that off, that balloon deflates.
And I think that's why in your particular case, you felt a real rapid decompression because that's what I did is I decompress that those balloons.
Now not every patient gets an immediate effect like you do.
That's a fantastic effect, but you had a really, really, really chronic problem years and years and it developed.
You had many vessels very vascular, and as soon as that was cut off, they it was depressurized.
Aaron ShilohSo you felt that, and then to my understanding from speaking to you before that you're no longer bleeding, and and I am I'm just thrilled for you because I know from talking to patients like yourself and fibroid patients who have to worry about bleeding through their clothes, and when am I gonna bleed again, and not knowing it.
It's an overwhelming mental mentally exhausting life to lead when you can't just relax and be like, well, I can just live my life.
And and to free you of that is, you know, for me personally, a very rewarding and satisfying thing to be able to say, look, you know, just you don't have to exhaust you.
I'm how much mental energy did you spend on any given day worrying about this happening?
And when it did happen, the thoughts that would get
Scott Bennerinto You have no idea.
The the kind of machinations that go on in the background trying to obscure it, keep it from happening, get in front of it, stop it once it's happened.
Happened to me once at the airport on the way out to somewhere.
It's happened to me in my home.
It's just it and, you know, you could say, like, well, what brings it on?
Scott BennerI don't even know.
You know, it's not a change in my diet.
It's not it's I I can tell that if it's once it's a problem, having been on my feet for a while prior to that added to it, and I think talking and keeping my heart rate up all day also had something to do with it.
Like, if I had to, like, break it down, but no, you you're absolutely right.
I have had absolutely no bleeding since you and I got together.
Recovery and Navigating Insurance
Scott BennerThe procedure itself, I always think about when I first met you, you're like, I'm sorry.
Like, it takes so long, but it took, like, forty five minutes, I think.
Like, it didn't take very long at all.
I remember, I think, having a fairly cogent conversation even with the nursing staff.
Like, I wasn't even out all the way when you did it.
Scott BennerMy recollection of it was as as funny as it sounds is that, you'd go, you know, I guess you were in there with the wire, you'd you'd inject a dye to look around to see what you were doing.
I felt like I got very warm, you know, in the area where you injected the dye.
You did the you know, you did it.
You did it.
You did it.
Scott BennerAnd then I remember maybe the even the only part of it that I could even talk about being unpleasant might have been, like, at the end, you actually have to embolize where you went in with the wire.
Aaron ShilohYeah.
We have to close the site of the artery.
Scott BennerTo call it uncomfortable, I don't remember.
I can't even quantify it.
But in that moment, I thought, oh, that pinched a little.
And then that was that was kind of like, you know, then it was it.
I was outside, you know, on my I think I was out of there in, an hour, to be perfectly honest with you, you you know, after you were done.
Aaron ShilohYeah.
Scott BennerAnd I have not had any issues.
I'll tell you beyond the pressure being gone up inside.
That's the reason I asked you how far it is up inside where the pressure was because I didn't understand that's where the bleeding was coming from because I actually also have an external hemorrhoid.
And I think that the pressure from the inside is what created the hemorrhoid at the external area.
So you and I talked at my at my follow-up that we're just gonna wait some time and hope that my body kinda reforms and reshapes now that that pressure is not there anymore.
Scott BennerAnd it is much better already because there's nothing behind it, like pushing constantly.
You know?
But other odd little not odd, but even the shape of my stool is normal now.
And I didn't realize it really wasn't before.
And now as I think about it, it was being sent through a Play Doh fun factory trying to get out instead of, like, you know, coming out the way it was supposed to.
Scott BennerI can't tell you how awesome it is.
I would 100%.
I'd I would've I'd pay the whole amount.
Like and if you told me it was gonna fail in twenty years and I had to come back, I just start saving money now because it changed my life in a split second.
Really did.
Aaron ShilohWell, hopefully, listen.
Hopefully, it won't.
I mean, I in all honesty for myself, I've learned so much over the last five years about the pathophysiology of this particular disease.
If you asked me twenty years ago if I'd be putting in speculums when I did IR, I probably would have been like, no way.
But, you know, it it is helpful and instructive.
Aaron ShilohAnd now seeing patients, seeing them later, and then learning more and more about the variations in the anatomy.
And then the one thing that we've done in our group, myself and the other docs who do this primarily in New York, is we are refining the technique by discussing it.
And I think amongst the group of doctors in my company, there's probably nobody maybe in The United States doing as many hemorrhoid embolizations as we are.
So we have a large amount of experience now, and we have sort of refined the technique.
And one of the things that we're doing as not only are we looking at the superior rectal arteries, which are the main supply, we also look at sort of this the side doors that supply that area, and they're called middle rectal arteries.
Aaron ShilohAnd it used to be that we'd no one touched those, and then it was, like, only if the treatment failed.
And now on every single case, I did one today where I thought, oh, I did a great job on the SRAs.
Looks great, but I'm gonna go and look.
And on the left side, there was nothing.
I mean, there was nothing to talk about.
Aaron ShilohOn the right side, a huge artery feeding that area in other docs and other places.
And maybe five years ago, I would have not even bothered with it.
And today, I went in, and I know this guy's gonna do fantastic.
There's just a lot.
It's a very complex area.
Aaron ShilohThere is no two people who are the same arturally in the rectum.
You know, sometimes I do four arteries.
Sometimes I do seven.
Once we're done, I think now that we've refined the technique to where we're at, the success rate, particularly for patients like yourself with chronic internal hemorrhoids that are bleeding is really, really, really great.
I mean, I'd say ninety to a hundred percent.
Aaron ShilohIt it's challenging in that you can't block every artery because if you do and if you completely block it off, that area will die.
We don't want that, obviously.
So we have to be cautious to some degree that we can't overdo it.
We can't overcook it.
So, again, because of our joint experience and my own personal experience now, I think we've refined it.
Aaron ShilohAnd so for patients like yourself, it's really an amazing, amazing, amazing treatment and really confident it helps people.
Scott BennerYeah.
No.
I I can't again, I can't tell you how happy I am.
I got an email from a woman after I mentioned on the podcast the first time, and she said, oh, my poor husband just had that surgery, and it really left him in a bad way.
I wish I would have known about this before.
Scott BennerAnd I thought, I'm doing the right thing talking about it.
So, you know, hopefully, the Internet will leave me alone a little bit.
You know what the other thing is is that this podcast is mainly about type one diabetes.
Right?
And it's people have autoimmune issues, and a lot of them autoimmune issues are invisible to other people.
Scott BennerAnd I thought, boy, this really does fit in with that because, you know, in a million years, I've done an amazing job of hiding this from people.
And it is no different than as far as the impact on you, it's no different you shouldn't be hiding anything.
You know what I mean?
Like, it's tough.
Like, walk through the house.
Scott BennerWhat's wrong?
Nothing's wrong.
I'm fine.
You know?
Are you okay?
Scott BennerI'm fine.
I'm fine.
You know, you you appear to be in a bad mood for a second.
You're not in a bad mood.
You just you you know, you just thought you just bled out in the bathroom, and you're you're wondering if you're gonna pass out now.
Scott BennerAnd everybody in the apartment, you know, in the house wants to know, like, it's dinner time.
Do wanna eat?
I'm like, no.
I'm not hungry.
And then, you know, what's wrong with him?
Scott BennerAnd you just you don't say anything because it's just it was embarrassing.
I'm not embarrassed by it anymore, and I can't believe I it it took AI to to send me in the right direction.
Aaron ShilohIt's a it's a shame, Scott.
You know, I think that we need to do a better job, myself and others.
We're doing the best we can to educate the community, the primary doctors, you know, that there are these things.
We actually are experts in orphan diseases.
You know, to your point, things that people suffer from in silence, fibroid disease, they women bleed and become anemic, and they're allowed to do so.
Aaron ShilohAnd they a lot of women won't talk to each other or to their doctors about how bad their fibroid bleeding is.
So I think, you know, hopefully, we can remove the stigma and the shame from it and and get more patients treated and not have them feel that same, you know, shame of what's going on.
They don't have anyone to talk to.
You know?
And listen.
Aaron ShilohThe treatment's not for everyone.
I just wanna be clear.
I mean, I get patients who come in with a single painful thrombosed, which is clotted external hemorrhoid that have a hard time sitting, and those patients probably don't need this.
They need supportive care.
We give them medications and do what's necessary for those patients.
Aaron ShilohBut for many patients who have internal hemorrhoids, which is a large number of people Yeah.
And those especially that are bleeding, we know how vascular those are.
They are prime candidates to have this minimally invasive treatment done and, you know, completely change and improve their lives.
Scott BennerIt's fantastic.
And it felt like I it felt like I went to lunch and came out.
Do know what I mean?
Like, it it I wasn't in a hospital or, like, it just I, you know, I went into the front of your clinic.
They took me in the back, got me set up.
Scott BennerYou said, hey.
I'll be right there.
You were working on somebody else.
You I think you were doing someone's fibroids, honestly.
And and you said, hey.
Scott BennerWhen they come out, you know, you'll be next.
And they cleaned up the room and brought me in, and I I felt like I was home, like, two hours later.
It was crazy.
Yeah.
You know?
Aaron ShilohYeah.
You know, moderate sedation is what we've been what we use.
I mean, to your point, some patients are sleepier than others.
The you know, because the fibroid embolizations take twenty minutes, those patients tend to remember nothing.
Because, hemorrhoid embolization can take forty five minutes to an hour depending upon how many arteries are done.
Aaron ShilohYou know, sometimes patients are a little bit more awake, but the beauty of it is that the procedure itself is not painful.
You know, the warmth that you experience during the procedure is from the injection of the IV dye.
Right.
I myself have experienced it.
I've had CAT scans for other reasons, and even if you get an IV injection of IV dye in your arm, it makes you feel warm in your pelvis and like you peed yourself.
Aaron ShilohSo when you're directly injecting the dye into that area, it definitely feels warm.
So that's very common, but from a painful standpoint, I think you would attest that it's not a painful procedure.
It's all done using image guidance, tiny little hole, and what you felt was me probably holding pressure after deploying a device to close the artery.
Right.
We can actually do the procedure from an artery in the wrist, which means that you don't have to have your groin access.
Aaron ShilohI'm still favoring the the leg, but because of various factors, there's, different shapes of catheters that the groin lets me have more options.
Scott BennerMhmm.
Aaron ShilohWhereas the wrist, you're stuck with one type of catheter.
If it doesn't work, then you have a problem.
Scott BennerListen.
There was bruising at the site, like, that but that was the extent of like, you would have not known.
I listen.
I came home.
I ate something.
Scott BennerI took a nap.
You know, I felt, you know, to say pain is even wrong.
Like, I think I took Advil for or Tylenol for a day or two just for the local, like, I don't know Right.
Soreness at at where you went in.
There was some, you know, there was some bruising, and the bruising was gone in a couple of weeks.
Scott BennerThere was this one thing.
I can't believe I'm just gonna say this to you, but I'm going to anyway.
I haven't had a chance to ask you about this because it it occurred to me after I I met with you as my follow-up.
Is this common after something like this?
Gosh.
Scott BennerI can't put I'm gonna look away from you when I say this.
Randomly, at least a dozen times, the head of my penis has gotten very warm out of nowhere.
Almost like there was, like, more blood flow down there.
Is there anything about what we did that would change it?
It stopped now, but it happened for a few weeks in a row afterwards.
Scott BennerAnd I'm wondering, is there anything about changing blood flow that could have changed that feeling or that it's didn't I guess that's what I'm talking
Aaron ShilohIt's possible.
Look.
I'd have to rereview your particular case because I don't have it memorized.
Scott BennerRight.
Aaron ShilohBut I think I embolized at least one or both of your middle rectal arteries.
The arteries that supply that area are also very, very close to the arteries that supply the penis Mhmm.
The pudendal artery.
And so it is possible that by reducing the flow there, it increased the flow elsewhere.
And so there is a possibility that by shutting down one spot, more flow went in another spot.
Scott BennerRerouted somehow.
Yeah.
Aaron ShilohSo there is a possibility because those arteries the the superior rectal arteries are entirely for the rectum.
They come from the arteries to that area.
Right.
The middle rectals are derived from arteries that in also, like I said, near arteries that supply the skin inside your groin and, of course, you know Mhmm.
Some of your your penis testicles, etcetera.
Aaron ShilohSo it is possible.
I haven't heard that particular
Scott BennerWell, should have been just somebody sitting else brings it up.
Maybe they just don't wanna tell you.
Aaron ShilohMaybe they didn't wanna say.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But it is it is possible.
Scott BennerInvoluntary wreck.
It's nothing like that.
It's just it just would get warm and then stay warm for ten seconds and then go away.
And I'd be like, this is interesting.
Is this gonna happen forever?
Scott BennerBut it just it stopped, and and doesn't happen anymore.
Aaron ShilohWell, I'm glad it stopped.
I I I I'll have to think about it more, and I guess, you know, at some point, I'll get back to you.
But I and what I'm what you're suggesting and my origin my initial thought is what I just mentioned is it's just some redistribution of flow.
Scott BennerWell, you'll be happy to know that two different AI models agree with you.
It's because that's what that's what I I didn't wanna bother you, so I just asked there.
Aaron ShilohYeah.
Scott BennerYeah.
Is there anything that we're leaving out or anything we're not telling people?
Like, I wanna make sure they understand if they have this specific issue, how impactful I think that what you do is.
And I I just wanna make sure we feel like we've covered it.
Aaron ShilohThe only thing I would say is so if you wanna come in and be evaluated, whether it's me or someone else, number one, not all rectal bleeding is hemorrhoids.
So let's just make that clear.
Mhmm.
So one of the things that we're very careful about is not to make assumptions.
Most of the time, particularly in patients who are of an age where colonoscopy will be warranted, if they come in and say, like you said, I'm bleeding a ton, and I say, have you had a colonoscopy and they're 55 years old?
Aaron ShilohThe answer is no.
They will I will not do anything until they get a colonoscopy.
Not to say that they don't have hemorrhoids.
It's very common.
And even if I did an anoscopy and I found a hemorrhoid, I don't like to make assumptions.
Aaron ShilohYou can certainly have two problems simultaneously.
So unexplained rectal bleeding and change in bowel habits should be evaluated for, you know, colorectal cancer.
Number one.
I just wanna make that clear.
Not every bleeding is hemorrhoidal bleeding.
Aaron ShilohThere's other problems.
Scott BennerRight.
Aaron ShilohOnce that is excluded, then we can focus our attention on the hemorrhoidal problem.
So if a patient as far as, like, what's a consultation look like, if you were to come to me as a new patient like you did, I would would like to see a recent colonoscopy report.
So let's say you had one in the last year or two.
It showed no problems, but internal hemorrhoids.
You're cleared.
Aaron ShilohIf on the other hand, you haven't had that, what we will usually do is do an anoscopy, which is basically, as you pointed out, a small speculum.
It looks like a piece of plastic that you can insert into the rectum.
It's only about as this width and length of a finger.
So for me, it replaces the rectal exam.
I would rather see with my eyes than feel with my finger because I think I have a better sense as to what's going on.
Aaron ShilohSo we do that, determine if you have a hemorrhoid, if you have another problem or not, and then we can discuss what options there are.
Sometimes patients should have some what's called conservative management, change in their diet, medication before we proceed immediately with this particular treatment.
There are patients like yourself who I know no amount of steroid cream or suppository is going to change their outcome.
But there are people who it's their first episode of hemorrhoidal problems.
It may not be in their best interest to jump right in to something to fix it.
Aaron ShilohThey may get relief with something else.
So there are some patients for whom I prescribe medications to try first to see if I can alleviate their issues just medically conservatively without immediately diving into doing something.
So just to be clear, there are other things that we need to think about.
We don't immediately make assumptions.
But if we get to the point of saying you have chronic internal hemorrhoids, your bleeding is, you know and many patients are like you.
Aaron ShilohThey failed rubber band ligation.
There there are really very few options.
And as you pointed out, when someone messaged you about a friend who or husband who had the surgery, it's it's no joke.
It's really no joke.
And compared I know you might have had a little hematoma or bruising in your groin, which doesn't happen to everyone, but it's unfortunately happened to you.
Aaron ShilohBut it's it's, a minor consequence relative to you.
I'm sure you did test to the change that's then happened in your life after that.
Scott BennerListen.
I stood up in a paper gown and hugged you.
I I and then I've I've I'd do it again.
I'd come if you called me right now and said you needed somebody to run your trash out, I'd I'd come do it for you.
So I I can't tell you how how thrilled I am.
Scott BennerI mean, just to not think about it anymore or or to even to be able to tell you that for the last six weeks, I just go to the bathroom.
And I'm not there forever, and it's not like you're pushing something around something else than hoping that it doesn't explode afterwards because it's really what was happening.
You know?
I was on all kinds of, like, you know, taking, like, softeners and stool.
I was trying everything I could to just avoid when it was gonna happen, and I just I couldn't tell listen.
Scott BennerI I you know, I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna make an ad for you and put it in here because I appreciate it so much.
But where, would you want people to go?
Is it a website, or how would they find you?
Aaron ShilohSo yeah.
I mean, there's many ways to find us.
You know?
Number one, we're if you just type in USA hemorrhoid centers, it it should be the first thing to pop up, though.
I just think it's important that we get the word out there, Scott, and that we, you know, find a way not just to educate patients, but but primary doctors.
Aaron ShilohSo I hope that yourself, and I'm hopeful that some of my own other patients go back to their primaries and say, hey, man or woman.
What excuse me.
What's up?
I I wish that, you know, you had thought about this and sent me to this doctor or someone like him sooner.
Yeah.
Aaron ShilohOr why did I have to suffer for years this way?
Scott BennerYeah.
You were very clear earlier, but I'll say that, you know, it's if you go you know, I'm gonna use the fibroid thing as an example.
By the way, all those fibroid questions came from my wife, so you might be meeting more people in my family.
You really gotta do your your your diligence and and figure out what's best for you.
As far as this internal bleeding from this these hemorrhoids go, my experience has been nothing but positive, and and I can't tell you how happy I'm I did it.
Scott BennerAnd and I really do appreciate you taking the time to come on and talk about this.
Aaron ShilohThat was I appreciate that a lot, Scott.
I was just telling someone the other day that, you know, I feel like I'm I mean, I could do the math, but I'm, like, 70 to 80,000 procedures in.
I should probably be glowing in the dark at this point, but I'm not.
And, you know, there is something to be said, and especially in this particular field with the hemorrhoids, experience does matter.
I know just speaking for myself, I feel so much better about it now than I did five years ago.
Aaron ShilohAnd like we discussed, you know, in the hospitals, we do some other rather complex things as well.
And to be able to do these procedures for people in an outpatient setting without the hospital, and it's an I mean, I know you had to pay some out of pocket, but you can only imagine what that cost would have been like inside a hospital with the amount they charge.
So it's an order of magnitude.
You could have added a zero to the number because that's how it works.
You know, everything there is exponentially larger.
Scott BennerI was stunned that my insurance company told by the way, Cigna, go to hell.
I was stunned that Cigna told me that and apparently, I it was maybe the only major insurance company that wouldn't have covered this procedure for me.
Lucky me.
But whatever.
So Cigna said to me, well, the next time the bleeding happens, just go to the ER, and they'll embolize it.
Scott BennerAnd I went, yeah.
Somebody who doesn't know what they're doing.
And it was like I was like, why and I said, isnt that gonna cost you more money than if I just go let doctor Shiloh do it?
And everyone I spoke to along the way said yes.
They all agreed with me.
Scott BennerLike, nobody was like, oh, no.
You're crazy.
They were all like, yeah.
It's gonna be cheaper if he does it.
It you're gonna have somebody who's more, you know, practiced at it, but this is what we'll cover.
Scott BennerSo next time you bleed, run into the ER, you know, and yell help me.
And I was like, I
Aaron ShilohThe only problem and that that's legit.
I told you you could have gone to the ER, but here's the rub.
With hemorrhoidal disease, the problem is it isn't actually as much as you were bleeding, it's not an arterial bleed.
Arterial bleeds are really brisk and are life threatening.
Scott BennerMhmm.
Aaron ShilohAnd so what would happen is you'd go to the ER, they would try to find the bleeding.
And if we and when when the way that we treat GI bleeds is if we do not see the active pumper blood coming, like, pumping out Mhmm.
We don't embolize.
Right.
Because one of the unfortunate things with GI bleeds is that they're intermittent, and they're off and on.
Aaron ShilohSo number one, you could have walked into the ER.
By the time you were seen, by the time you got back, by the time they called IR, by the time they came in, hours passed, hours passed, hours passed, you stop bleeding.
They show up, oh, we can't find it.
Or on top of that, as I said, it's a vein, not an artery.
So they would never have found this source of bleeding anyway, and you would have left having been through all that, having undergone a procedure, the bleeding would not have been found.
Aaron ShilohIt would have cost the insurance company $50,000 for your ER visit, the testing, the procedure, yada yada, and all to end up in the same place again, which is the fallacy in all of this.
Scott BennerYeah.
And the same exact spot, by the way, is is hopelessness and bleeding.
And so I just once I found you, I said, I don't care what this takes.
I'm doing this.
Like, I ended up a serious conversation with my wife.
Scott BennerI was like, look.
The insurance company isn't gonna pay for this.
I'm like, what do you I'm doing it.
Like, we have to figure this out.
You know?
Scott BennerAnd she's like, well, Merry Christmas.
And I was like, awesome.
Aaron ShilohI do wanna mention though that there are other insurances that do Yeah.
Cover this procedure, which is also a little problematic.
I mean, first of all, Medicare, which is obviously one of the the largest insurer in The United States.
But there are others I'm 99% sure.
I'm trying to remember if Aetna does or doesn't, but like other Blue Cross Blue Shield currently does.
Scott BennerYeah.
Aaron ShilohYou know, I think United does.
I mean, we're talking about the big insurers.
United, Blue Cross Blue Shield.
I'm I'm not a 100% sure about Aetna.
I'd have to recheck that, And it doesn't I don't want your listeners to believe that all insurance doesn't cover it.
Aaron ShilohIt absolutely it the it's dependent on each individual.
Scott BennerI've had three insurances as an adult an employed adult, and two of the three of them would have covered this, not the one I currently have.
So I was like Right.
Awesome.
Aaron ShilohAnd you would never and and listen.
You would never know that.
You'd have to think about every medical plan that's potential.
And you probably talk about insurance coverage with with, you know, what you deal with on a regular basis because I'm sure that some insurances don't wanna pay for the better pump and others do and and different treatments that are out there and are available for some patients and not to others and, you know, the the different tiers of of health care and medicine that we live with dependent upon this insurance concept that we've come to accept, which is probably a podcast for another day.
Scott BennerIt certainly is.
Aaron ShilohYeah.
It is really challenging that we do that.
But I will say we work with everybody.
We try to find solutions.
You know, even in situations like this, we offer, you know, cash options, payment options to the best of our ability.
Aaron ShilohIt's it's you know, I was told, I wish I could do something different.
Unfortunate even in your case, you do appear to peer, and the person falls back on their policy statement, and you speak to a doctor who's not in your field, might not even have any experience with this, and they read the piece of paper and say, we believe this treatment is what's called e and I experimental and investigative, and that's it.
Yeah.
And they're paid by the insurance company to be the adjudicator.
It's like in a trial where where I'm sue you in a civil lawsuit, but you pay the judge.
Scott BennerYeah.
The
Aaron Shilohjudge decides you pay them, and they decide which way it's going to go.
Like, how is that going to go?
Scott BennerYeah.
Aaron ShilohIt's clear you're in a position where it's not going to be in your favor.
Scott BennerYeah.
They offered me a peer to peer review, and I was like, in what world is that gonna end up in my favor?
It's it's you making the decision still.
Aaron ShilohProvide them with all the data that we want and which we have and we will do, but at the same time, they dismiss it as not enough.
And I think I discussed this with you, the kind of work that they want people to do.
Would you have undergone a what's called a sham procedure where I stick a catheter in your arteries to your rectum, but I don't embolize it?
And then I ask you later a month to three months, six months, a year, how are you doing?
And compare you to a patient who actually got an embolization, then take a do a thousand of those patients.
Aaron ShilohSo five hundred get embolized, five hundred don't, and then make an assessment.
Like, what patient's going to sign up to maybe have a sham procedure?
Nobody.
Not in The United States at least.
Scott BennerYeah.
No.
I hear you.
Well, doctor Shalu, I again, let me thank you very much for doing this.
I'm taking up enough of your time, but I do really appreciate you, helping me unburden myself the rest of the way from any embarrassment I felt about this because it's gone now.
Scott BennerI as I sit here and record this, I know how many people are gonna hear it.
So I I I know I'm not embarrassed anymore.
And I hope nobody else is too.
I hope if you're having a problem like this, that you don't run around hiding and and doing what I did.
I hope you just go get it taken care of.
Scott BennerIt wasn't that bad to show doctor Shiloh my butt.
Only had to do it one time.
And then, when the What's
Aaron Shilohnot yet?
Scott BennerYeah.
Yeah.
What yeah.
He's like, don't and then once we did the procedure, honestly, it was a it still felt like a very private thing.
Like, it wasn't, you didn't feel exposed during it or anything like that.
Scott BennerIt was it was really it just kind of easy to be perfectly honest.
So
Aaron ShilohOne last thing Yeah.
Scott, I'd like to say is that, I'm honored by every patient, and I'm honored to have been here with you.
And I also will offer to connect with anybody even if it's a matter of redirecting redirecting them to where they need to go.
You know, my goal is to help as many people as possible, with this disease and certainly the others that we described a little earlier as well.
Scott BennerYeah.
Reach out.
Doctor.
Shallow is a solid guy.
So thank you, man.
Scott BennerI really do appreciate your time.
Happy New Year.
Aaron ShilohHappy New Year.
Thanks for having me on.
Final Thoughts and Resources
Scott BennerOf course.
It's my pleasure.
I wanna thank USA Hemorrhoid Centers for sponsoring this episode of the Juice Box podcast and for all they did for me.
The pressure and seeing blood, it's not anything anybody wants to talk about.
But they're also not things you should ignore, which is why this episode is brought to you by USA Hemorrhoid Centers.
Scott BennerThey're leaders in nonsurgical hemorrhoid care.
They helped me, and they offer hemorrhoid artery embolization, which is a minimally invasive outpatient procedure that reduces hemorrhoid symptoms by treating the underlying blood flow rather than just masking discomfort.
USA Hemorrhoid Centers was a huge part of why I feel better, and they have multiple locations nationwide.
They accept most major insurance plans and make specialized care more accessible.
So if you've got some of the problems you heard me talking about today and it's interfering with your comfort, confidence, or daily routine, it may be time to explore a modern treatment option.
Scott BennerLearn more at usahemorrhoidcenters.com.
Get the relief that you deserve.
If you're new to type one diabetes, begin with the bold beginnings series from the podcast.
Don't take my word for it.
Listen to what reviewers have said.
Scott BennerBold beginnings is the best first step.
I learned more in those episodes than anywhere else.
This is when everything finally clicked.
People say it takes the stress out of the early days and replaces it with clarity.
They tell me this should come with the diagnosis packet that I got at the hospital.
Scott BennerAnd after they listen, they recommend it to everyone who's struggling.
It's straightforward, practical, and easy to listen to.
Bold Beginnings gives you the basics in a way that actually makes sense.
Have a podcast?
Want it to sound fantastic?
Scott BennerWrongwayrecording.com.
#1803 After Dark: Phoebe Needs a Break
"Phoebe" from episode 1322 shares life after divorcing a mentally unwell partner—raising children, managing type 1 diabetes, and rebuilding stability, identity, and confidence after years of emotional strain.
Companies that Support Juicebox
Key Takeaways
- Recognizing Abuse: Abuse isn't just physical; it includes emotional manipulation, extreme financial control, isolation from family, and digital stalking.
- The Importance of Safety Planning: Leaving a volatile relationship requires careful planning, which can include securing firearms, seeking support from trusted law enforcement or friends, and calling domestic violence hotlines.
- Mental Health and Relationships: Severe untreated mental health conditions in a partner, like suspected Borderline Personality Disorder, can create a deeply chaotic, unpredictable, and frightening home environment for both the spouse and children.
- Managing Diabetes Amidst Chaos: Trying to successfully manage children's Type 1 diabetes is incredibly difficult when basic safety and rest are constantly compromised by domestic turmoil.
- Finding Resilience and Moving Forward: Healing from an abusive relationship is a slow process, but securing distance, finding therapy, leaning on supportive communities, and taking life one day at a time can ultimately lead to peace.
Resources Mentioned
- Juice Box Podcast After Dark Series: juiceboxpodcast.com
- Medtronic Diabetes (MiniMed 780G): medtronicdiabetes.com/juicebox
- Contour Next Gen: contournext.com/juicebox
- National Domestic Violence Hotline: 800-799-7233 or text "START" to 88788
- Camp Sweeney Giveaway: juiceboxpodcast.com/giveaways
- Juice Cruise 2026: juiceboxpodcast.com/juicecruise
- Wrong Way Recording: wrongwayrecording.com
Introduction & Sponsor Messages
Scott Benner Here we are back together again, friends, for another episode of the Juice Box podcast.
Phoebe Hello. My name is Phoebe. I am the mother of two type one children, ages 10 and 13.
Scott Benner If you're living with type one diabetes, the After Dark collection from the Juice Box podcast is the only place to hear the stories that no one else talks about. From drugs to depression, self harm, trauma, addiction, and so much more. Go to juiceboxpodcast.com up in the menu and click on after dark. There, you'll see a full list of all of the after dark episodes. If you're looking for community around type one diabetes, check out the Juice Box Podcast private Facebook group.
Scott Benner Juice Box Podcast, type one diabetes. But everybody is welcome. Type one, type two, gestational, loved ones, it doesn't matter to me. If you're impacted by diabetes and you're looking for support, comfort, or community, check out Juice Box podcast, type one diabetes on Facebook. Please don't forget that nothing you hear on the Juice Box podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise.
Scott Benner Always consult a physician before making any changes to your health care plan or becoming bold with insulin. Today's podcast episode is sponsored by Medtronic Diabetes, who is making life with diabetes easier with the MiniMed seven eighty g system and their new sensor options, which include the Instinct sensor made by Abbott. Would you like to unleash the full potential of the MiniMed seven eighty g system? You can do that at my link, medtronicdiabetes.com/juicebox. Today's episode is also sponsored by the Kontoor Next Gen blood glucose meter.
Scott Benner Learn more and get started today at kontoornext.com/juicebox.
Family Background & Type 1 History
Phoebe Hello. My name is Phoebe. I am the mother of two type one children, ages 10 and 13. And I have three other children that are all teenagers. Correction.
Phoebe The oldest is an adult now, and she has celiac.
Scott Benner Oldest has celiac. Two younger the two youngest have type one?
Phoebe Mhmm.
Scott Benner Do they all have the same dad?
Phoebe Yes. I have five children. They all have the same dad. The dad has his mom's sister was diagnosed with type one as an adult. She was in her thirties or forties.
Phoebe Mhmm. And his grandfather was also diagnosed with type one as an adult, thirties or forties. I think it was after one hepatitis infection and another it was a flu, I believe.
Scott Benner Okay.
Phoebe Now We did not know they had type one. His own mother didn't even know that they had type one. She just thought it was type two diabetes.
Scott Benner How about that? So for people listening, I think you're gonna find Phoebe very, interesting, and you didn't see me just make air quotes because her name's not actually Phoebe. That's what we're calling her. But why did we choose Phoebe? It's the same name she used in episode thirteen twenty two.
Scott Benner It's an after dark called borderline. My remembrance of that episode is strong, which is a little uncommon for me because I make so many of them. But I remember you battling through your husband's, mental health issues. Mhmm. Worrying working out how to, you know, get your family to a safe place, and I I it was really something.
Scott Benner So if you're listening to this now and thinking, I'd like to have an understanding of that, you know, check out thirteen twenty two as well. From there, Phoebe and I will start talking. What gets you back on the show? Like, what after because that was a I mean, seriously, a very honest conversation could not have been easy to have. I didn't find it easy to be a part of, and it wasn't my life.
Scott Benner So what makes you wanna come back and do it again?
Phoebe I don't know. Just hearing you say that makes me a little You're like furry.
Scott Benner Well, did it? They made you sad.
Phoebe Yeah. We have come a long way. And, also, on the type one side, I I did wanna say, I have a cousin with type one diabetes, and I have also two cousins with Hashimoto's. So and none of them they're all from different families of my dad's side. We're kinda we're rather blindsided by that, but I don't remember when that would well, I do remember when that was recorded.
Phoebe I think we recorded that episode in, maybe May 24.
Scott Benner Okay. Yeah.
Phoebe Yes. I was just on the at that time at the edge of deciding to leave my marriage of twenty three years.
Scott Benner Mhmm.
The Decision to Separate
Phoebe I had been we got married in 2001. We moved all over the country for his career, like, checkerboard across The United States. I'd stayed home because it was I always wanted to be a stay at home mom, and it was hard to do. We were moving so often when the kids were younger. Yeah.
Phoebe So I got my dream of staying home with the kids, it's a little bit of a golden handcuff, because when it took me a long time to realize that I was in a emotionally, verbally, financially abusive marriage, I thought. And I was I think it was 2022 when I finally it finally clicked what was going on. So when we recorded that podcast episode, I was trying to decide to leave him. And I I think the next day, we talked about it. I am a Christian.
Phoebe So I went he had asked me to talk with our pastor together about saving our marriage. And I think it was the next day after we recorded the podcast, and I had to look look the pastor in the eye. Not my I don't think I looked at my husband. I had I told him several times I wanted a separation. Mhmm.
Phoebe So it was a very scary time because very our lives are very volatile. Not physically abusive, but there are a lot of threats of self harm that he had, a lot of anger. It's pretty scary
Scott Benner Yeah.
Phoebe Time. I was very afraid at that time.
Scott Benner Can I ask you, does it seem scarier remembering what it was like to live through it, or does it seem scarier in hindsight now that you're separated from it and have some distance? That makes sense?
Phoebe Yeah. It it kinda depends on the day. It was very scary at the time because I was always just jumping out of my skin. I go you know, I go to the gym, and I hear the door close. And I'm, is that him?
Phoebe Because I found out he was tracking me, what I was doing. I had a whole safety plan in place. I start looking for work to earn some money in my own bank account, and he knew everything that I was doing. You know, finding emails I didn't think he would find. And, so I was just very anxious real
Scott Benner yeah. You're making me anxious, and we're just remembering it. You're not going through it anymore.
Phoebe No. And it it's kinda funny because after we separate, we had that talk, and he left. And I had no idea what was gonna happen. And we had some pretty bad things go down after that involving the police. I had to call the police several several times, and then he even was my dad.
Phoebe And his brother had come to visit because my I think it was just the two no. It was all three of our oldest kids. They were going off to summer camp that week or so. And one of my cousins I have a cousin that was murdered a couple years ago by like, ten years ago by her husband. So my one cousin I had spoken with on the phone.
Phoebe I called her because her brother had killed himself. It's it's horrible.
Scott Benner Oh my god.
Phoebe So, yeah, it's just a it was a train wreck. He had bipolar disorder and had killed himself, so I called her just to check up with her.
Scott Benner Mhmm.
Phoebe And then for some reason, I told her about what I had going on. And, you know, we hung up the phone, and then she called me back. She's like, I'm calling your dad. Your dad needs to know because my family didn't know. She said, I'm so worried that something's gonna happen.
Scott Benner Yeah. Well, can we can we pick this up? Let let's do this.
Phoebe Yeah. I'm all over the place. I'm sorry.
Scott Benner You're fine. Phoebe, listen. Everything's fine. If anyone deserves to be all over the place, it's you. So, but let me say let me say this.
Scott Benner Right? We're recording I think you're my last. Am I am I a lunatic? Am I recording on New Year's Eve? Anyway, you're one or two of the last you're one of my last couple of interviews of 2025.
Scott Benner Right? Mhmm. And you and I did this, originally, what, '24. So it's been '24 to '25. I mean, it's coming up on two years, you know, in a couple of months since you and I recorded this.
Phoebe Mhmm.
Scott Benner I still, like, remember your situation, which, again, I'm gonna tell you is kind of uncommon because I record so much content that, like, sometimes people say to me, like, oh, you remember this happened? I'm like, I I don't know what you're talking about. And then I go back and I listen. I go, oh, I remember that. That was awesome.
Scott Benner But yours really sticks with me. And even just this little recap here for the first few minutes of your conversation reminds me of of why it it stuck with me so long. But I wanna make sure I understand the timeline. You and I record.
Phoebe Mhmm.
Scott Benner The next day, you're in the church with your husband seeking counseling that he wants you to seek. You're not really down with that. And then you, you know, say I wanna get separated. I kinda wanna move forward from there because you said there were things that happened. Like, so for people who think like, that's the that's the end of the story.
Scott Benner He left and everything was fine. Like, let's go back to there for a minute. First of I can't imagine how difficult it was to sit in a room that is clearly designed for you to sit there and listen and then go back and be be a good girl and and be a wife and let this guy do whatever he wants to do to you. And so you gotta fight through his desire for you to do that. I'm assuming the pressure that the priest is sitting there.
Scott Benner Right? Like, and you don't wanna let God down and and your your marriage and all that stuff.
Phoebe Well, the children is because we have all these children.
Scott Benner Yeah. So all that pressure is there in the room with you, but you still, like, persevered and said, no. It's all good. I'd like you to leave. Right?
Phoebe Yes. I said I I looked at a pastor in the eye and said, I I want a separation. And I I do believe that my husband, he was the one who called the meeting. I believe that he did it to get me to back down
Scott Benner Yeah.
Phoebe By talking to the pastor. And that was his, and, yeah, the pastor pastors are wonderful, but most cannot counsel through, especially in an abusive marriage. So he he's against divorce. He said, Phoebe, can you spend more time with your husband? Is what the solution was going to be.
Phoebe And I said, I want a separation. So he stormed off. I went home, which is terrifying because I have no idea what's gonna happen. And I don't even remember cut you
Scott Benner off for a half a second? I feel bad doing this. Mhmm. You laid out your entire situation to that pastor, and he said, hey. I have an idea.
Scott Benner Why don't you hang out with the guy a little more?
Phoebe Yes. Thinking that we needed more time alone, some dates, that kind of thing. We got all these kids.
Scott Benner You were honest with him about all the stuff that you explained to me in the in the episode. And that and he's like, you you guys probably just need to go to a movie.
Phoebe Yeah. Yes. And that I mean, I I know everyone has varying degrees, but I had gone on my own to talk to the pastor several times. And when I went on my own, he was more sympathetic. At one point, he said, yes.
Phoebe You may need to separate. But then coming in together
Scott Benner Pressured him too, do you think?
Phoebe Yes. Because I think by by my husband saying, just want my wife that that's what he's was said. I just want my wife. I think that made him think, oh, he really wants to work on this. So
Scott Benner Was there any time during that meeting that your husband admitted to doing any of the things that you said, or did he just go, I don't do that when you brought it up?
Phoebe He wasn't even asked on any of that.
Scott Benner But, I mean, you said it in front it would be like if it would be like if three people were in a room, and I said, hey. Do you see that person over there? They heat up a a metal stick every night and stick it on my ass and burn me. And then I said to the third person, can you please help me? And then the guy said, what'd he say?
Scott Benner Is that true? Does he does he redirect to your husband, or does your husband just sit there and go, and then we move on and you should go on to a movie? Like, I'm trying to understand the counseling part of this.
Phoebe Yes. I and I don't remember all the details. I I don't think we went into all of the things that would happen as what was going on in our home. I had told the pastor that, and my and the pastor, he knew
Scott Benner Yeah.
Phoebe That he went my husband was threatening to kill himself. He he did because he he did go in on his own to talk to him, and he did admit to that, which on the surface, it's the I mean, it's bad.
Scott Benner Yeah. I gotta tell you, Phoebe. Like, the if I'm remembering your problem correctly and from this, I the only thing that was gonna fix that problem was a long walk off a short pier, not catching, Marley and me. It just I I don't know. It's it seems crazy to me.
Escalating Threats and Safety Planning
Scott Benner Okay. So you stuck up for yourself and you're like, you know, I'm getting the hell out of here. Like, everybody go. What happens then? He comes home, packs a bag, says ta ta or No.
Scott Benner No. What what goes on?
Scott Benner The Kontoor Next Gen blood glucose meter is sponsoring this episode of the Juice Box podcast. And it's entirely possible that it is less expensive in cash than you're paying right now for your meter through your insurance company. That's right.
Scott Benner If you go to my link, contournext.com/juicebox, you're gonna find links to Walmart, Amazon, Walgreens, CVS, Rite Aid, Kroger, and Meijer. You could be paying more right now through your insurance for your test strips and meter than you would pay through my link for the Contour Next Gen and Contour Next test strips in cash. What am I saying? My link may be cheaper out of your pocket than you're paying right now even with your insurance. And I don't know what meter you have right now.
Scott Benner I can't say that. But what I can say for sure is that the Kontoor Next Gen meter is accurate. It is reliable, and it is the meter that we've been using for years. Kontoornext.com/juicebox. And if you already have a contour meter and you're buying test strips, doing so through the juice box podcast link will help to support the show.
Scott Benner Unlike other systems that will wait until your blood sugar is a 180 before delivering corrections, the MiniMed seven eighty g system is the only system with meal detection technology that automatically detects rising sugar levels and delivers more insulin as needed to help keep your sugar levels in range even if you're not a perfect carb counter. Today's episode of the Juice Box podcast is sponsored by Medtronic Diabetes and their MiniMed seven eighty g system, which gives you real choices because the MiniMed seven eighty g system works with the Instinct sensor made by Avid, as well as the Simplera Sync and Guardian Force sensors, giving you options. The Instinct Sensor is the longest wear sensor yet, lasting fifteen days and designed exclusively for the MiniMed seven eighty g. And don't forget, Medtronic Diabetes makes technology accessible for you with comprehensive insurance support, programs to help you with your out of pocket costs, or switching from other pump and CGM systems. Learn more and get started today with my link, medtronicdiabetes.com/juicebox.
Phoebe No. I don't remember all the dates, but I I do know he he was around, and he had all kinds of erratic behavior. One thing and this it was all in pretty quick succession. One day, I walk my dog. There's an elderly man in the neighborhood that our dogs have play dates with.
Phoebe We go pick the dogs. We play in the backyard together. Mhmm. So the gentleman used to come to our house and play in the front yard with the kids, but he didn't like that. My husband didn't like that.
Phoebe And the guy my friend, he picked up on it. So I didn't wanna give up my dog walks. Dogs need to play, two golden retrievers.
Scott Benner K.
Phoebe So one day, he just came in the house while I was cooking in front of my kids, yelling that he is going to go pound on the guy's door and give him a piece of his mind, like, man to man. And this man is, you know, older gentleman, like, retirement age, and my husband is was bigger than him. And I told him and said, I am calling the police if you go down there. We you know, we had a verbal argument, and he left. And that night, I called I have a law enforcement friend, and I told him what's going on.
Phoebe He's like, he said, I'm not your knight in shining armor. He I love we we are good friends. Him him and his wife were good friends. But his point was, I cannot rescue you. You need to call the police.
Phoebe You need to file a report for all this because he just threatened to attack an elderly man, and you know it if he does it. And you and I are complicit in knowing about this behavior, this
Scott Benner Yeah.
Phoebe Thought process he has. So I did I filed a report that night. He forced me to. He said you have twenty minutes to do it. If you don't call, I'm gonna do it for you.
Phoebe Mhmm. I got the lieutenant talk from him. So that was one thing that happened. My kids got ready to go to camp, and they leave very early in the morning. And my husband said he was gonna drop them off at camp because that's the last time he's gonna see them.
Phoebe He's gonna kill himself while they're at camp. So but he didn't he doesn't get up early. I drop off the kids at camp, and then my dad and my uncle come into town to stay with me because they were afraid for me being home alone with just our two younger children.
Scott Benner Yeah.
Phoebe And that's that's when it really blew up. He and I had always known in my head I was completely done if he took our money. So he he changed the, withdrawal on our accounts. So there is no money to pay the bills. No.
Phoebe The mortgage, they they just started bouncing. It was all an automatic payment. He just switched it, and I didn't have any income yet. I think I had interviewed at the school by that time to be I'm a food nutrition. I'm a cafeteria lady now, but I hadn't started working yet.
Phoebe I was gonna start in July. So never would part pick an argument in front of our family, but he did with my dad about the money in the bank accounts. He started arguing with me. My dad was in the kitchen, and my dad would try to talk to him, and he just blew off my dad and took off. So at this point, my dad was only gonna be there for a week, and he had known about the threatening of taking his life.
Phoebe And I think in the first episode, I told you he had, loaded, like, a year previous to this when it all started, and I realized it was a mental health issue. He had loaded a gun in front of me in the night Mhmm. And said he was gonna kill himself. So my dad he says, I'm not leaving until you have all the guns out of your house. So my dad and I packed up the guns, and we brought them to my friend's house that I talked to on the phone.
Phoebe He's law enforcement.
Scott Benner Yeah.
Phoebe Has a gun safe. So we drove over there, and I didn't know he was tracking me. He had taken off one of the tracking the family. I think it would be in Life 360. He had gotten out of there, but we were parked in my friend's driveway getting ready to leave.
Phoebe And I get a text message with a map circling where I was. He's like, whose house are you at, and what are you doing there? Which really freaked me out because
Scott Benner Yeah.
Phoebe He's law enforcement, a former SWAT team, and the whole bit. And my my friend had told me, if if anyone, you know, comes to my door threatening my family
Scott Benner This could be a different situation than if the old man gets that knock. Right?
Phoebe Yeah. Yes. He's not gonna mess around. So he's like, you you have to do something about this. He he cannot you know, because they were started they're watching for his vehicle out there, you know, at this point because they were kinda involved in it.
Scott Benner Yeah. This guy's not looking to put your husband down on the in the front yard. Right? So he doesn't want that problem.
Phoebe No. But he he would if he Yeah.
Scott Benner No. I hear what you're saying. Yeah.
Phoebe Yeah. Because that you don't know what's gonna happen. And he's still living with us. It's just crazy. And then, we go pick up the kids at camp.
Phoebe I do, anyway. That, in the evening, they get back at night. It's a long drive. And my dad and my uncle were still there. My uncle, they drove a camper van.
Phoebe They're camped out in our driveway in the van. And he was they're out with my two younger girls, the two ones with diabetes. And he came in. He knew they were there. And my neighbors I had a good friend across the street.
Phoebe I have a I had a whole bunch of people watching out for me. Mhmm. My neighbor across the street, she texted me because she could hear she must have heard saw him come up, and he just laid on the horn blasting the horn about the money thing. I don't know if you want me to tell you all this.
Scott Benner I no. Are you kidding me, Phoebe? This is fascinating. Because this moment that you're talking about, how far removed from the conversation with the pastor is this?
Phoebe How much time?
Scott Benner Yeah. Between the pastor conversation and this blowing the horn.
Phoebe Mhmm. Probably about ten days.
Scott Benner Okay. This is my My point is is that you go through more in a week and a half than most people would be able to deal with in their entire life. And you're talking about stories of, like, standing in the kitchen and screaming and yelling. Like, you fight like, the kids are the kids like, hey. This is just Tuesday here.
Scott Benner Mhmm. Or yeah. Because this is how everything always is. So you don't need to, like, walk me through the entire thing. How long was it from the pastor's conversation?
Scott Benner By the way, I just I love that he's like, you should just date a little more. I mean, is anyone listening to this? Wait. From there till your husband moving out, your ex moving out. Is he your ex now?
Scott Benner Yes. Okay.
Phoebe He is.
The Immediate Aftermath
Scott Benner Till your ex moving out, finally. How long was that time till he got out of the house?
Phoebe It was actually that this next morning that he looked for an apartment because I did end up calling the police
Scott Benner Okay.
Phoebe Because there's another threat made in front of all of our children that just came home from camp.
Scott Benner Does he have a mental health diagnosis or just or is it just your assumption?
Phoebe He does. He he does, not, psychiatric because he, in into this buildup, I did have him see a psychiatrist, but that that was all we could get him in for, was for medication. He did agree. And all this time for the first time with that handgun up until now, I told him I wanted him to get counseling. And he saw a couple therapists, but none of it ever sticks.
Scott Benner Mhmm.
Phoebe I've been told, like, borderline personality disorder, which he at the he agreed with at the time. He said that makes sense. And most likely, a narcissistic personality disorder, which they commonly will go together.
Scott Benner Mhmm. Yeah.
Phoebe When when we got married, I knew nothing about mental health. And
Scott Benner Now you know too much about it.
Phoebe Yes. I would know way more than I would ever want to know, but he never wanted to see therapy. I knew when we got married, was very naive. Yep. We don't need a therapist.
Phoebe I won't ever see a therapist, which sounded fine to me. But
Scott Benner When he's gone and it's clear he's moved out, the is there any reduction in your stress or anxiety, or does it just shift to a different problem?
Phoebe Well, he moved out. He he got in an apartment that next day after the night with the police coming again. He his argument I was very shocked. He was arguing with the police. They did not take him.
Phoebe They they just said sleep in different rooms. They that's what they told us.
Scott Benner Have you guys tried Marley and me? Jesus. Yeah. Where do you live? Actually, you can't tell me that, but go ahead.
Scott Benner I I apologize.
Phoebe No. Yeah. So he he got the apartment. It took a week for him to leave. He would not leave until and we had more issues.
Phoebe I didn't call the police again, but he found another firearm that I had not found. And I had to try I tried getting it away from him late one night. The last night he was home, my oldest daughter and I, I slept on the floor in her bedroom with him, like, stomping around, throwing stuff around, pounding on the door, mask texting me. And I think it was that next day was the last day. And that was the scariest time, I will tell you, from the time he agreed to get that apartment until he was gone.
Scott Benner Right.
Phoebe It was pretty horrible. But he immediately got on dating apps and started dating, and he had one girlfriend. He ended up buying a house immediately. She moved in with him, and that was very short lived. He's he's the one that had a problem with her.
Scott Benner Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. He shacked up with somebody, and he kicked her out?
Phoebe Yes. He he he knew within two weeks that he bought this house, and she moved in. And he knew within two weeks. And he was coming to me because I I have a friend. I I that's another whole story.
Phoebe But he just heard me talking to him. He was like, you treat him like a child. You sound like you're talking to a child. Because I, you know, I I run over the the Aftershocks headsets a lot, and there's one headset where, you know, people can hear my conversation. Yeah.
Phoebe So he's heard this, and he's like, sounds like you're talking to a child.
Scott Benner Well, a I'm assuming you're it sounds like you're talking to a dog you're trying to get not to attack you.
Phoebe Yes.
Scott Benner Yeah.
Phoebe Or or a child. Yeah. Because you you have to placate. You kind of you're a handler of types.
Scott Benner Yeah. You're you're managing the mental illness and the emotion and all of the So crazy narcissistic things that he's thinking and and all the the demands that he's made and all of the, times he's told you he's gonna take his own life. Like, right like, that's all in your head every time you're speaking to
Phoebe Yes. Yeah. It is. And she yeah. He knew right away, and he would come and talk to me.
Phoebe It's like to find, like, advice. I I couldn't believe it, but you are
Scott Benner Oh, wait a minute. Long after he moves out is he coming to you like you're the AI bot in in Tinder? What it what it what it by the way, does Tinder not have an AI bot? Oh, I'm having an idea. Hold on a sec.
Scott Benner Like, you're right. Because he's coming to you with his dating issues. How long after he moved out is he doing that?
Phoebe Within about three months. He he
Scott Benner Get out of here. Are you
Phoebe Yes.
Scott Benner You must have been so thrilled he was gone. No?
Phoebe Yes. I was. Yeah. He he was so focused on finding
Scott Benner A new woman to abuse.
Phoebe Yes. Yeah. And he that that was all he and he didn't even think it was weird. And and for for me, I've kinda figured out. It's like I but was in a way a parent, like a mother.
Phoebe Mhmm. You know, because you come talk to me about your problems. What should I do? How do I deal with this? And, they broken off, and it it was pretty it was not as bad.
Phoebe I wasn't so worried for our safety, but he would they call it a split. He'd mass text me and phone call, just kinda erratic behavior until he got another girlfriend. Goddamn. That was in June. They start they met in June online.
Phoebe They're all online. And she we went over there on Father's Day. I brought the kids over because they don't real they're not real comfortable going there.
Scott Benner No. Really? Yeah.
Phoebe They spend very little time. Like, like, a couple hours every few weeks. Like, he he's gone six to eight weeks without seeing them at all because he was on this dating binge trying to find a new one. So he met her in June. I brought my son over to cut his grass.
Phoebe He'd pay him for the kid to cut grass. And in August, he told me that they're gonna get married. They're getting married anytime now in January, the new one.
Scott Benner God bless. I listen. I I gotta tell you something. I've devoted the last thirty some years to the woman that's, across the hall from me right now. And Mhmm.
Scott Benner Last night with a head cold, I put together furniture. And I have less luck getting kindness out of her than your husband does out of getting out of people. I don't know what is happening.
Phoebe Yeah. He it's kind of a and he's not. I I have I crack up because I have a a friend. We went out to dinner. Her brother was there.
Phoebe He's from the North. He has a strong accent. And what he knew about our divorce, he's like, I don't understand. He's no Casanova.
Scott Benner Even if he had like, I I'm sure I've I've I was an idiot in the first episode, and they asked you if he was super handsome or had a big penis or something like that. But, like, there's nothing going on like that. Right?
Phoebe No. He he's just the average guy, and he when I met him, he just seemed honest. Like, he wasn't
Scott Benner Well, I mean, listen. You're seeing it now in real time. Whatever it is he does works because it worked on two ladies in succession.
Phoebe Yes. He has kinda he he I mean, he seems really calm and laid back, and people will say that he's just very quiet. He's good at fixing things. And as soon as he left, he started working out, and he is he looks in in good
Scott Benner shape for his. Yeah. I mean, I'm assuming he seems calm till he's loading a revolver in front of you and talking about killing himself. And then I imagine it doesn't seem so calm anymore, but by then, you're vested. You got these kids.
Scott Benner You got a life. Like, you know yeah. Right. Like, he pulls that on day 15. You're out of there.
Phoebe But Yeah. Do believe that is the rush to get for them to get married. And already, she lived in a different state a few hours away, but she moved in, and now she's not working. She's quit her job because he has this fancy house.
Scott Benner Yeah. And that's part of the scam too is to get her, like, in a situation where she's got no way to nowhere to go or no money to do it with.
Phoebe Yes. They just went on a three week tour across The United States. The kids can see she tags him all the time on her Facebook. So he they see everything that they've been up to. Very a lab a very expensive vacation that I know that he could not afford.
Scott Benner It's all part of the play to get her in. And then he'll marry her up, get her locked down, and then start screaming at her that he's gonna kill himself and that she's you know, that she's talking to a 75 year old man in a dog park, and I'm gonna have to go beat his ass. Like, that kind of stuff will start immediately. So that you think the rush to get married is that he's having trouble holding all that in?
Phoebe I think so. I I think he can only do it for so long. And from when I've read, the older people get it, it's harder to
Scott Benner Hold the crazy down.
Phoebe Which makes sense. Yes. Well, because you don't care as you know, older, you get you're you're more relaxed about things, and I think it's harder to to hide it. And the
Scott Benner Can I say real quickly, like, I I wouldn't make light of mental health, and I don't have any lighthearted feelings about it, but that's big picture when I look at the world? I would I would like people like your ex husband to get as much help as possible and that he's not out there affecting other people or, you know, having a worse time in life than he could be. It's when you talk about it on this personal level. Like, when I'm just thinking about you and your children. There have been times in this conversation that we've had just today where I thought, oh, man.
Scott Benner It would have been great if he would have killed himself. Like, at least you could have got the hell out of that. But, like, no. It wouldn't have because then that would have hit you and you would have you know, there would have been some poor person with mental health whose life would have been lost. And on top of all that, you would have felt guilty about it for the rest of your life probably for not helping him.
Scott Benner God knows. I don't know how that would happen to you, but I'm pretty sure it would have. There's no easy way out of this. Like, this is a rock in a hard place times 30. But I'm not kidding you, Phoebe.
Scott Benner If you just took the last thirty minutes of this conversation and took it to a screenwriter and said, turn this into a ninety minute horror movie, it would be an action thriller. Like, it it really would. It it's it's insane, and you don't see it that way as I'm sure you do now better than before, but, like, you're so steeped in it. You don't know, like, you don't know you're in a Scream movie. I'm waiting for you to, like, go up to this other woman and just yell, run.
Scott Benner Like like but but You know?
Phoebe Know how it it is because if if I chose to say anything, she would just think I'm some kinda jealous woman trying
Scott Benner to get
Phoebe him Yeah. Back and not believe me. And it is sounds horrible, but he is much better with someone because I've not those splits that I talked to, I've not had one. The last one that I had to deal with was on Easter Sunday, and that was a horrific time, very traumatic for my children. That was just over the phone because they heard him on the phone.
Scott Benner Yeah. Well, that's pretty
Phoebe My youngest, she has not forgotten these things. She remembers I think she was seven when some of this went on. She's you know, she knew that her dad wanted to kill himself, and she's told people this. My 18 year old son even just now, he'll because they do see him off and on. They like working on trucks by two boys, and their dad knows how to fix trucks.
Phoebe And he's he's like, should I text dad to see if I can use this? I don't wanna make I don't want him to get angry. He's 18. And then we you know, we're we're I'm visiting my parents right now. I'm at their house.
Scott Benner Mhmm.
Phoebe And does grandpa have I'm he's learning welding in school. Does grandpa have a welder? Can I ask grandpa if I can use his welder? I don't want him to get angry. That's coming from an 18 year old boy.
Scott Benner Yeah. That's crazy.
Phoebe The youngest like, they knew she had told the youngest that they were getting married. The dad has never had a conversation with them about getting married. So the she'll ask me things, and I'll say, well, you need to ask your dad because I don't know. I don't wanna make him angry. You know, they will see him.
Phoebe They will eat dinner with him.
Scott Benner You're in a room with a dog on a chain. Everything you think if I move, this thing's gonna bite me. Yes. Right. It's just yeah.
Scott Benner It's it's terrible. Like, there's nothing good about it. Let's fast forward so we all don't just feel like jumping off the bridge. Okay.
Dating After Abuse
Phoebe Yes. Because it does get better.
Scott Benner It gets better. Get to the part where you when's the first day in this process where you thought, oh, wow. Things are turning around. How long does that take to happen, and then what happens next?
Phoebe Well, it it does take a a while because after he left, I I was tired. I slept a lot.
Scott Benner I bet you are. Jesus Christ.
Phoebe Because you're not sleeping a lot. It's very hard to get good sleep. So I started a job. My kids were homeschooled as a homeschool mom. I put my kids in public school.
Phoebe I go to work, and for a while, I would cry every day driving to work. Just I don't even know why I was crying. I just cry the whole way to to work. And then, you know, I'd come home. I'd take a nap.
Phoebe We'd eat something. I'd nap until it's time to get the kids to bed, and then I'd go to sleep. But I was and this is kind of my current situation. I I mean, I still I'm doing things around the house, but it was just you're so tired. But I was in a support group for long term partners of people dealing with this kind of thing.
Phoebe As in this group is men and women all over the world, actually, Australia. There's a lot in Australia, Canada in this group. So last fall, we got divorced in December. He moved out, I think, in July 1 was when he moved out. So there's a gentleman from the group that messaged me just because he's a Christian fellow.
Phoebe He was asking me something, and he has been separated. So the podcast and I don't know when it aired. Or
Scott Benner I think it went up in October '24.
Phoebe Yeah. We had started chatting that fall, and I put the podcast in my group. I have not ever I won't ever put it on my social media or broadly. Sure. I'm very selective who I let hear this whole thing, but he heard it.
Phoebe And he, might I I or this gentleman, he heard this. He's a he's a writer. So he his wife has borderline, and they had a lot of issues. He is in my parents' house right now is what I'll tell you.
Scott Benner Wait. Are we date are we dating?
Phoebe Yes. He and, like, six weeks ago, he asked my dad. He called my dad to see if he could date me. I'm 51. He's 49.
Phoebe He lives in another state. I he listened to my podcast, and we were just, like, random, not not important questions. But when he listened to the podcast, he said, I wonder if I could be in her life after hearing my story on the podcast.
Scott Benner Oh. So Hey. If you ever are happy, I think I I I think it's gonna be because of me. I love this. What a great story this is for me.
Scott Benner Yes. I'm just teasing some.
Phoebe Yeah. Well, you know that and that's why I'm here again. But
Scott Benner Oh, you're here to say thank you. Go ahead, please. Let me be quiet.
Phoebe But he's he's actually, it's a slow process because he I think he's a year ahead of me on getting out of his marriage. It takes a long time to get over all this. We're not rushing off to get married. We're not gonna get married next week or anything. And he's just meeting my children now.
Phoebe This we this is a neutral place for him to meet my children. Like, we visited each other a couple times in the last Oh,
Scott Benner this is lovely. Summer. Congratulations.
Phoebe Yeah. He he well, he's writing a fictionalized story of this because I had never heard of borderline personality disorder. And especially and I'm a Christian. I will keep going to church, but that is one area where churches are really they really struggle is with the mental health.
Scott Benner Yes. No. I mean, I I figured that out. He was like, have you guys thought of splitting a hotdog together? Thanks, pastor Bill.
Scott Benner Yeah. Did I tell you the story when I took a when I took a pillowcase full of firearms to my friend's house to lock them up and still didn't find them all? Who do think? They should head out to the A And W, do a drive up, you fucking idiot? Yeah.
Phoebe I know. It it it's very it's very sad. I mean, it's just out of their realm. They're not that's not their area
Scott Benner of expertise. I don't I I think I could show this to somebody from Mars, and they'd have better advice for you than that. That's ridiculous. By the way, full, I I would like it if they used the when your when your new friend's writing, he can say Juice Box podcast. I'm happy with that.
Phoebe Yes. Well, we had already talked about that.
Scott Benner So Juice Box capitalized, box is lowercase b one word.
Phoebe Yes. Well, we he we will have that in there. I mean, I'm I am he's doing all the work, but we're it's a story together of two recovering people because it is a long process.
Scott Benner Imagine you're ever gonna be recovered from this. I just think there'll be versions of it where you feel better as you get older.
Phoebe Yes. It is yeah. It's a a ugly
Scott Benner Goddamn right.
Phoebe Even I've had people say, ask me, well, was he hitting you? And if you if you say no, even today, and I'm not I'm talking secular people, they will they don't consider abuse until you're getting hit.
Scott Benner Yeah. You go pish posh. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Scott Benner No. No. No. Just waving a gun around. Right? That's okay.
Scott Benner Yeah. Yeah.
Phoebe Yeah. And even with that, there are I it it is shocking.
Scott Benner It Well, then let me let me be kinder to the pastor. Apparently, there's a lot of people who don't understand anything, not just him. I I mean, honestly, like, any bit like, seriously, if I took your conversation from now and the other one and just chopped it up into three minute bits, randomly chopped it up into three minute bits, I bet you I'd hear I bet you I'd hear 20 things that you'd say that I would make me think, oh, you should get away from that person.
Phoebe Mhmm.
Scott Benner I can't possibly have more compassion for you because, like, to hear you, you're such a lovely person. And I do remember that, you know, you got together when you were young, you were locked in, married for life, like, that kind of, you know, kind of Christian value thing. And, you know, you put up with a lot thinking this was just the way it is.
Phoebe Mhmm.
Scott Benner You know, it's you you don't no one deserves this. And even the way you're talking about it now is a credit to the kind of person that you are. I sincerely hope that that gets to all your children, you know, slowly, but I don't think there's any doubt. Like, there's I mean, that is dad gonna be mad? Well, my grandfather who's never been angry at me once in my life, will he be mad if I ask him to borrow something?
Scott Benner Like, that's that's therapy right there. Somebody needs to go to talk to somebody. You know what I mean?
Phoebe Yes. And they have the boys have a
Scott Benner Good.
Phoebe Very good therapist. The kids well, all but one, she won't do it, but they're all in therapy. And a new this gentleman and I was convinced I'm I'm not ever gonna date anyone. We were friends. We're just chatting.
Scott Benner Mhmm.
Phoebe Chatting, chatting, chatting, and then talking and then video calls. But, and I will say it is not I know it's not the same situation because a lot of people and that is the concern. My like, my therapist, you don't wanna jump into anything because you're you're very prone to getting into the same thing. You go from one if you don't do do the work.
Scott Benner Your radar detector on this might not be great.
Phoebe Yeah. Yeah. That was the concern. My the therapist I see knows, borderline personality very well. That's why I chose her.
Phoebe And he, the person I'm with now, he's done therapy with me and her together virtually, and he is complete opposite. He is therapy, relationships. How are you feeling? It just
Scott Benner We're talking about your gentleman caller, that guy.
Phoebe Yes.
Scott Benner Yeah.
Phoebe Yeah. Yeah. Yes. He he everything is different. It it's like it I
Scott Benner can't should definitely have somebody vet him for you. That's a good idea.
Phoebe I Yeah. I have I have had multiple people vet him.
Scott Benner So May I say, I find this to be even more important because this story where I helped you get back into the world, if that guy ends up putting you in a trunk and driving you to Poughkeepsie, that's gonna feel like my fault. You know what I mean? Like so, yeah. Let's let's really bet him really well. Make sure he's a rock solid guy.
Scott Benner Okay?
Phoebe Yeah. Yeah. He he he is. I I didn't even know people like that existed. Honestly, because I I should have known I mean, looking back, hindsight is twenty twenty, isn't it?
Phoebe But you should be able to talk to someone about everything and how you feel. And one thing I've realized is I don't even know how I'm feeling a lot of times, and I've had to learn how to do that because it didn't matter how I was feeling before. You have to just keep doing. And I've got two kids with type one
Managing Diabetes Amidst Chaos
Scott Benner Yeah.
Phoebe Insulin pumps pumps and Dexcom. So all of this is going on, and I'm still managing their diabetes through all of this. And now I'm doing it all alone as a single working parent with the two kids and managing my own health and then the mental health. You know, juggling therapy appointments, and kids are learning how to drive and first jobs all at all at the same time.
Scott Benner Sure. Sure.
Phoebe So it is
Scott Benner Well, listen. First of all, the crying on the way to work, I'd keep doing that. That's a good emotional release. I I I'd make that part of my day if I was you. I wonder too I and I know not enough about this to say this out loud, but it's a podcast.
Scott Benner So here we go. I wonder if you guys have, like, a version of Stockholm syndrome. Like, do you think that you that you, you know, basically, he was your captor and and you feel bad for him at this point? Like, do you know what mean? Like, does that happen after time where, like, even though all these crazy things are happening, you're like, oh, the poor guy is not well.
Phoebe Actually, I I think there is some of it because, in the guy I'm with now, he has been able to turn off more of his emotion towards his person. There is a still a sense of help. They they have two adult children together, So Mhmm. There is some help there. He doesn't feel as bad as I do.
Phoebe And I don't really know about feeling bad. I I can't even
Scott Benner describe it. I meant your kids and you with your ex. Like Yes. Yeah. That feeling of, like, you're protective of him.
Scott Benner But what were you trying to say about the new guy? I'm sorry.
Phoebe You get this ingrained. It's like that you're naturally a caretaker. I'm naturally a caretaker.
Scott Benner Yeah.
Phoebe He's naturally a caretaker. He's able to turn it off more than I am. And I don't know if it's because he he's a male or more analytical.
Scott Benner I have to tell you, wife would have punched your husband in the face and left, I'm gonna guess, 25 ago. The second time that he said something that's sideways, she would have been like, what's going on here? And then that would have been the end of it. I can't even get, like you know what I'm saying? Like, she's tough.
Scott Benner And, like and you're you're so nice. You're so nice that you let bad things happen to you. Have you ever looked back on that? Like, I know you got married really young. Right?
Scott Benner Were you 18?
Phoebe No. No. Not that yeah. I I didn't have a lot of dating experience. Just some casual dating.
Phoebe So he was the first real
Scott Benner Person you date.
Phoebe But boyfriend.
Scott Benner But my my question is is were you just raised to be very accommodating to people, or is that your personality, you think?
Phoebe Yes. And we see it I'm here now. My, my mother my mom has been sick. Right before we came, she was diagnosed with, leukemia that they're not gonna treat because of her her age. And our family it my dad is, like, the sweetest, most wonderful man.
Phoebe Everyone just loves my dad.
Scott Benner Mhmm.
Phoebe So I'm here. You know, my brothers came over. We had a big dinner. My mom says, you're in charge of all of it because I can't do it, and I'm trying to keep my dad from doing too much work. And my friend, he notices too.
Phoebe He's like, no one is even doing the dishes. You're doing all the dishes. You're doing everything all by yourself. And that's how I I grew up. So
Scott Benner Yeah.
Phoebe I I love my family. But now that I'm older and more mature, I can see how it all started.
Scott Benner Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's really something. You've been on a journey. Yeah.
Scott Benner It's not half over. I mean, you've already lived three lives, to be perfectly honest with you. Wow. That's something.
Phoebe There's a lot of self awareness. You have to really learn yourself and pay it.
Scott Benner How do you keep up with the diabetes stuff since I like, when I interviewed the last time, you had did you have one kid with a hypo one then?
Phoebe No. I we had two. Okay. 02/2018 and 2021, And I I hate to say it, but a lot of times we are just winging it. I I mean and now I'm working.
Phoebe I have I'm forced to, you know, make sure pumps are charged and, you know, pump sites, you know, before going to work.
Scott Benner Mhmm.
Phoebe It's not perfect. I hear these people, they have these excellent kids' a one c's or five, and they eat no carbs, and they
Scott Benner just Those are white those are those are white ladies doing TikToks in their spare time. Don't worry. You you got a good reason. You're fine.
Phoebe Yes. Yes. But we're not we're not running any alarm bells or anything on the kids. I I mean, they're doing fine. And in fact, the oldest, she's 13.
Phoebe I went this is a big deal. I went away for three nights last fall, and she would she changed her sister's pump for her. I think it fell off or something. So she I do most of it, but the I'm the oldest she can do it. She just chooses not to yet.
Phoebe So that's what we're working on. But she's gonna go to camp this summer, the 13 year old. Yeah. And that reminds me that we need to push. She knows how to do it.
Phoebe She just doesn't like to do it, and I think that's kinda normal.
Scott Benner Let me slip this in here, just because you said that I've already given away two slots at Camp Sweeney in Texas, but I I have four more to give away. So when you hear this, if juiceboxpodcast.com/giveaways is still up, you there's still time to enter to to, win a slot at Camp Sweeney. Okay. You know, for those people who, enjoy and you absolutely could enter as well.
Phoebe Yeah.
Scott Benner Yeah.
Phoebe Yes.
Scott Benner Well, my goodness. Like so okay. Let's dig into this for a little bit. So right now, your type ones are how old?
Phoebe 10 and 13.
Scott Benner 10 and 13. The older one is a little more immature about it, little more wanting help, that kind of stuff?
Phoebe Yeah. She she can do it, but she she'll do it if I if I'm not there. She'll do it, but does not really wanna take ownership of I'm talking about pump site changes and Dexcom. She's more I don't understand why, but she's more likely to change her pump site than the Dexcom. She doesn't wanna change her Dexcom.
Phoebe So I don't know if it's the if it's hard for her to reach. But I do know the g seven, sometimes that button we have a hard time with it. We for us, we have to really press it into their skin so it doesn't always release as easily as the g six, and that might be part of what's going on with it.
Scott Benner Think it's a a laziness or a a desire to have you involved or something like or anything like that? You think it's more functional?
Phoebe It could be functional. She's dealing with some things. I'm learning about her. She she's my very challenging child. I don't know what she has going on.
Phoebe We've, had a few evaluations for her. She's very smart.
Scott Benner She's not taking after her dad, is she?
Phoebe No. I'm not sure
Scott Benner what direction that's. You're trying to figure that out. Yeah. Well, I mean, that's the other thing is that, like, this is I mean, that's gonna be in your mind for the rest of your life too. Right?
Scott Benner Like
Phoebe Mhmm.
Scott Benner Yeah. What what are you looking for there?
Phoebe I'm not sure. We had a evaluation with a child psychologist, and they called it, autism and selective mutism. I've I've heard the selective mutism before, but she since I put her in public school, she has friends. She talks to everyone is just shocked because she talks to people. She wears makeup.
Phoebe She's very pretty. She knows she's very pretty. So I and she just told me on the strip. She says, I don't have autism. I wanna do that again, and they will see how smart I am.
Scott Benner She's like she's like, hey. I I feel like I failed that autism test. I think I could do better.
Phoebe Well And and I think it's because she's noncooperative. She wouldn't speak Oh.
Scott Benner At all. Oh, I see.
Phoebe So I think my guess is she is very smart. And this is, like, kid terms. She likes she says she she likes to rage bait me is what she says.
Scott Benner She's like, I'm just screwing with you, lady. Watch this. Ugh. Awesome. Yes.
Scott Benner Yes. Did you say, hey. I should get a pass from stuff like this, but, know, it ain't it funny? That's not how it works. Yeah.
Scott Benner Your kids don't see your situation. They see it as their situation.
Phoebe Yes. Yeah. And she doesn't really talk about she out of all the kids, she's the one that doesn't talk about what has happened.
Scott Benner Really?
Phoebe Yes. Yeah. The younger one that's type one, she I do a lot of her stuff, but she can put a Dexcom on me, and she can put an infusion site on me. So I think we'll be for some I think they just don't wanna do it themselves. And I maybe it probably depends on all kids, but it just seems like they're not.
Scott Benner Yeah. I I think that's a fairly common thing. I don't I it would it'd be easy to commingle that with all your other issues, but I don't know. That just seems like a pretty common thing for kids growing up. Like, sometimes they just want a break.
Scott Benner You know what I mean? They're not looking for I think it's funny the way you know, sometimes I tell people, like, try not to see diabetes right away. You know, like, people are like, you know, my kid's sick. What do you think it has to do with the hype one? I'm like, hey.
Scott Benner It could just be sick. You know? And and then similarly here to you, like, I can see everything that happens to your kids. You could think like, well, what does this have to do with how they grew up and with our situation? But maybe it's just them being their age and, you know, just not wanting to be bothered putting on CGMs and pumps.
Scott Benner That's pretty normal.
Phoebe Yes. And that is my goal is to get them to function as adults. Especially the 13 year old. I don't it it sounds horrible, but I I think it's because we've had five kids. I homeschool them.
Phoebe I think I will be okay on them being launched into adults because I can see the light of me potentially having my own life again.
Scott Benner So Good for you. It's lovely. Ain't that nice? Yeah. I think you deserve it.
Scott Benner Maybe just give them all give them all $50 and tell them to go find their way. Like, hey. Listen. Yes.
Phoebe Well, that is your job as a parent to work yourself out of a job so they can live their own life. I mean, that that's what I'm working on.
Scott Benner Good for you. How come you haven't given up?
Phoebe Well and that is here's a plug for you because I have listened to you, and that, one thing I admire the most about you is you talk about resilience. And I don't know how to put that in my kids, and that's something I worry about. I because when I see my dad now and hit, like, every day when we were kids, study hard and get all your puzzles. Be the best you can be. That's what my dad would say.
Phoebe So every day, like, we have a lot of rotten days, and the next day, I just get up. And my mantra is do better today. You know, today will be better. That's what I try every day is that the next day it's gonna be better. So somehow, I don't know how, but I don't know if it's an inherent that some people have this.
Phoebe I I'm not sure. But I see I worry about my kids because I don't know that I see that, and I don't know if that comes maybe it doesn't come until you're an adult. I'm not sure, but that's my one worry.
Scott Benner Yeah. I think the thing that comes for them will come for them. Like, you know, they've had a different experience than you've had and the things that they'll be able to take from it and apply or, you know, the things that are gonna burden them. I I don't know that you can really impact all of that. You know?
Scott Benner It's happened now. Everything's in motion. You gotta gotta let it play out. Mhmm. You know?
Scott Benner And give them the best tools you can, and, hopefully, they'll pick some of them up. That's it. Yeah. I I'm with you. Like, I the other day what was I thinking the other day?
Scott Benner Arden and Kelly were sitting together, and I thought, oh my god. Like, Arden's, like, still in college, and we're only, like, two years removed from when, like, Kelly was pregnant. If I jump ahead two years, am I gonna find Arden to be a person who could have handled that or not? Like, is that just a function of the world and how it is today or her experience growing up? And there's part of me that says, like, you know, I have my successes where I have them because of the, you know, the things I had to go through, but not everybody makes it through those things.
Scott Benner So it's even hard to say, like, oh, I'm glad that happened to me because look, you know, because iron sharpens the steel, blah blah blah, like, you know, like, that whole thing, like, what if it would have, like, killed me? Like, what if it would have ripped me apart? Like, then that's not valuable. And at the same time, she hasn't had experiences like that. And what if not having those experiences ends up being a problem for her?
Scott Benner But then again, what if it's not? What if it turns out that the thing you were hoping for, which is for your kids not to grow up like you did, ends up being, you know, a great bonus? The problem is you're not the the problem with life and raising kids is that you're not gonna know until it's too late to do something about it. So you just have to pick a direction, be earnest about it, and hope for the best, and then look back over generations and decades and, you know, millennia and say to yourself, well, it's worked out mostly. So, you know, hopefully, it'll work out for us.
Scott Benner I mean, that really is all it is.
Phoebe You don't have any control even if you can see what path they're going on? Like and that's one thing I've learned from all of these kids is you cannot control them when they're little. You think you can control things for them, but you really can't. There's only so much you can make a kid do. So even if you see them going the wrong way, there's very little that you can do.
Scott Benner I couldn't possibly agree with you more, and I've I've tried to slip into the podcast over the years. You you meet a lot of people who are newly diagnosed, you know, as families. And the parents are right away like, you can see them. They're like, if I just do this and this and this and this and put all this in the right order, my kid's gonna have a great experience in life, and everything's gonna be fine. And I say to that, yeah, hopefully.
Scott Benner Mhmm. Like, but also you can't control the other part of it, like who they are. I think people spend a lot of time looking at outcomes and trying to decide, like, how did that person get to that situation? How can I be in that situation where my outcome is similar? But I don't think that's how it works.
Scott Benner Like, I just don't think that you can force yourself to be something that you're not. I think it's a lot of wasted time. Now the sadness is is that some people some people's parents want them to be lawyers. They end up being artists and that's a lovely story. But some people's parents want them to be artists and they end up being heroin addicts.
Scott Benner That's not a lovely story. Like, right Yeah. Like, your ex's parents probably, like, held that baby and was like, hey. Nothing but possibility here, and look what he did to
Phoebe you. Mhmm.
Scott Benner Right? And if you went and found them right now, they'd be like, I don't know. I didn't I didn't think that was gonna happen.
Phoebe No. Yeah. So And now when I talked to his mother, she said that there he was a troubled teenager. And there there's all these things, and there are kids who are troubled, like teenagers, young adults that turn out fine in the straight Right. In Harrow, but not all of them.
Phoebe And now she will say the because, we I'm in my home state right now. So the kids have seen both grandparents, but his mother just a couple weeks said we never had any problem with him, which we all know.
Scott Benner Wasn't quite well, as they get older, they start revising history pretty
Phoebe Yeah.
Scott Benner Yeah.
Phoebe Yeah. Yes. But that is just
Scott Benner She's worried god's not gonna let her in. You know what I mean? So Yeah.
Phoebe I have
Scott Benner to start backpedaling now.
Phoebe Yes. But, but the but I can't. There's nothing I can do about it.
Scott Benner No. No. No. But my my point is is that even if they saw him as troubled, I guarantee if you went back on the day that she thought, hey. Something's wrong with him.
Scott Benner If you would be able to tell her this story, she'd go, oh, that's not gonna happen. Like, you know what I mean? Like, nobody nobody thinks that's going to happen. And and I don't think that's ignorance sometimes. I just think that's hopefulness and, you know, it's just some my point is is that I'm agreeing with you.
Scott Benner You can't direct your children to be something they're not. No. There's too many variables and too much input in the world, and what's gonna happen is gonna happen. You lay a foundation and you model good behavior, and you hope they pick it up.
Phoebe Mhmm. That's the best you can do.
Scott Benner And so really all you can do, you should go off and and retire with this boy that you met in the thing and have some old people sex and and plant a garden or something like that. You know what I mean?
Phoebe I think it's probably actually better the older you are, honestly.
Scott Benner What? The garden or the sex? What were you saying there?
Phoebe Both.
Scott Benner Oh, good for you.
Phoebe Both. I would have never imagined. I and it it's too early. I mean, we're not running off into the sunset. Now we have a lot of things to get to do.
Phoebe Like, his career
Scott Benner You might wanna go slow. Yeah. It's very
Phoebe it is very slow. Like, he has to relaunch his whole career because he had a kind of a a more public image, and it is very hard to live a public image with this kind of stuff going on
Scott Benner Sure.
Phoebe In your
Scott Benner life. People pulling you
Phoebe down. Know. You never really I I think, like, we're good. I'm good now, but it it you you just you feel like you have to be careful to not
Scott Benner I would go I listen. I think going slow is a really good idea. Like, I mean, obviously, you guys have been through a lot, and I would understand trepidation. I would also understand you, you know, overvaluing the other person just because they're not screaming and yelling at you and waving a gun around. You might be like, this guy's perfect, but maybe probably not perfect.
Scott Benner He's just not screaming. You know what I mean?
Phoebe Mhmm.
Scott Benner So, yeah, take it slow. I mean but, you know, you're an adult. You can still do the old people sex. You don't have to take it. You have to take it that slow.
Phoebe Too far behind. So
Scott Benner Well, listen. Now I'm just imagining you tried to sneak off in your parents' house as a 50 year old. That's hilarious.
Phoebe It's not as easy as you would think.
Scott Benner As easy as think. I bet not. We have to go to the store.
Phoebe Yes. But we've had where we're at, we've had a lot of snow too. So
Scott Benner Oh, Jesus. So you can't do it in the car is what you're saying.
Phoebe I the only place to escape. It's got because that first episode I did I don't know if you remember. I was at my church. I went to my church to get away from the kids, and then we had the fire alarm going off. And then today, I'm sitting in there
Scott Benner In a garage. Van. In a minivan. Garage.
Phoebe I choked my
Scott Benner You're very dedicated to making this podcast. I really appreciate it. Hey. Listen. I I wanna say something because, you know, I joked a lot earlier, and I don't wanna joke.
Scott Benner If something about this podcast has helped you, I mean, you really just it it makes my day to know that. I'm really happy for you. You deserve any good thing that happens to you. You deserve it a 100 times over. So do your kids.
Scott Benner You know? Seriously, if I said something, did something, or put you in a position to whatever, you know, I'm grateful to know that.
Phoebe Yes. Yes. It has been a big help. And I was looking forward to coming and giving you an update because it is a such a radical difference where I'm at. And I am now considering, getting I might go back to school, college, either I already have a bachelor's degree, but either health care or education, maybe my master's degree to teach.
Phoebe Because the school schedule works out really well with the kids because it's just me. Their dad does not help with anything significant, so it's all
Scott Benner On you.
Phoebe Running the show right now.
Scott Benner Wow. It's a lot. Using hindsight, is there anything you could have done I'm not putting it on you. I'm saying, like, in hindsight, is there anything you could have done sooner that would have broken you free from this, like a piece of advice you could give somebody else?
Phoebe There are things that I I saw that I did not see. There there's a lot, But it this is my example. We moved a lot. The our home we live in, we moved to in 2012. And it was shortly after that I was told I'd wanna bring the kids up to see my family over the summer.
Phoebe We homeschooled. I didn't work. I think I I was stupid for not seeing it, but he'd say, I can't live without you. I will kill myself if you leave me home alone to see your family. And then, what kills me is I got divorced last December.
Phoebe My mom now has leukemia that they can't treat, and I'm just kicking myself a bit. You know, all those years I could have come and the kids could have spent more time with my family and known their uncles and but I just didn't see it. So if you live with someone who is talking about killing themselves, they they need help. You cannot save them, and that is not for you to help them out of. And I I will he he doesn't do it anymore, but I started saying when he wanted to talk when he talked about taking his life, I would say, I do I'm not equipped to help you.
Phoebe Here's a number for a hotline. And it sounds very cold, but, that is too much to have held over your head that someone's life is dependent upon you and you alone. Yeah. I should've probably twelve years ago if I had talked to someone. I should've that should've been my red flag to start working on getting out.
Scott Benner The separating you from other people who can, like, normalize your life and make you realize how crazy the thing is you're involved in, that's gotta be a big piece of it. The threats, I can't live without you, putting it on you that if something happens to them, it'll be your fault. That kind of stuff is, like those are huge red flags.
Phoebe Yes. Yeah. So that's long answer to the question.
Scott Benner But No. It's a good answer.
Phoebe Yeah. So anyone I if you are in that situation, you need to get help. It's too much to deal with alone.
Scott Benner Yeah. My gosh. I really I can't thank you enough for doing this. I wanna make sure that we've covered everything that you want to talk about, but I'm not rushing you. I'm just did you get through your thoughts, or you have something else?
Phoebe Well, I do have one other this is, not type one related, but I have had elevated a one c's, and I I've often on put on it my kids' Dexcom. I'm I'm going to see an endocrinologist in the spring, but I have when I sleep, my blood sugar goes up. When I if I just do a fasting finger stick in the morning, a lot of times it it's, like, a hundred, one twelve, one fourteen. But if I put that Dexcom on, I can see I'm up in like, up to as high as one forty overnight, like, hours after I've eaten. So I'm kinda wondering if because of my situation, my sleep has been so fractured from having type one kids, and he would wake me up at at night to argue.
Phoebe You know? So my sleep has always been really bad since the first type one diagnosis. So I don't know if it's a cortisol response. That's what I'm trying to figure out
Scott Benner Mhmm.
Phoebe If that can, like, push you over the edge into the diabetes world.
Scott Benner Oh, gosh. Yeah. So what are you doing right now? You're just monitoring?
Phoebe Yes. I go back in April. They they last summer, she tested for Cushing's, and they've checked. Yeah. I don't have any of the genetic markers for type one, but I'm over 50.
Phoebe And that's the other thing at my age. So many people say, well, everyone has die type two diabetes at your age. But
Scott Benner That's not true. Yeah. Yeah. You have you considered just everyone going to a beach and sitting down and and not just maybe living there forever? So you know what?
Scott Benner We we paid our toll already. I'm gonna stare at the ocean till it's over.
Phoebe Yes.
Scott Benner Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Phoebe Yeah. So it would be nice,
Scott Benner but Well can't hear you. Well
Phoebe So that's my other diabetes thing I'm trying to sort out.
Identifying Signs of Abuse
Scott Benner Thing you're sorting out. My gosh. I'd like to share this with everybody. So this is just a little bit of, like, back end research that I did while we were talking for the last hour. It can be really difficult to to see abuse.
Scott Benner I think that Phoebe's story outlines that. So here's some signs that you might be in an abusive relationship. There's like a doctor Jekyll and mister Hyde dynamic. The person can be charming and sweet one minute and explosive and terrifying the next minute, which makes you feel like you're walking on eggshells. If you're getting truly gaslit, they deny things that are happening, tell you you're crazy, you're imagining things, and it makes you question your own memory or your sanity.
Scott Benner Isolating you. They slowly cut you off from support, insult your friends, refuse to go to family events, or make you feel guilty for suspending time away from home. Humiliation, they put you down, call you names, make fun of you in private or public if you get upset. They claim you were they were just joking and that you're being too sensitive. Does all of that sound like
Phoebe Mhmm.
Scott Benner Okay. That, by the way, is just the first part. That's the emotional psychological signs. Physical stuff. Intimidation, blocking doorways so you can't leave a room, punching walls near your head, throwing objects to terrify you, reckless driving, driving dangerously, faster, erratically while you're in the car to scare you into a subissive situation.
Scott Benner Restraint holding you down, grabbing your wrists, pinning you against the wall during an argument, threatening to hurt you, themselves, your children, or your pets if you leave. All that sound like something that you've been through? Not the driving part? Like, is there, like, one thing where you're like, oh, got lucky there.
Phoebe Cat and mouse games. I I I kind of question the, like, the the road rage and that type of thing with with your passengers. Yes. But the threat threat to self harm that that All
Scott Benner that we do. Financial stuff. Strict allowances, giving you a set amount of money and demanding receipts for everything while they spend freely and and don't tell you what they're spending money on. Sabotage, preventing you from working or going to school, hiding car keys, starting fights before interviews, things like that.
Phoebe Waking you up when you're sleeping, not letting you sleep.
Scott Benner Oh, really? Just to make to make you unrested. Just, financial security, secrecy, hiding assets, taking out credit cards in your name without permission or refusing to let you see bank accounts. Digital signs, constant monitoring, demanding to know where you are at all times or using, like, find my friends or GPS trackers to stalk you, demanding your passwords froming you, forcing you to share your phone, your email, your social media passwords as proof that you love or trust them. Harassment, sending you a barrage of text or calls if you don't answer immediately.
Scott Benner Mhmm. Sexual coercion. Guilt tripping, uses phrases like, if you love me, you would do this, or pouting or punishing you for saying no. Ignoring boundaries, touching you when you've asked not to be touched, taking away condoms without your consent, wearing you down until you just give in to keep the peace. Yep.
Scott Benner If you're unsure, ask yourself this. Am I afraid of my partner? A healthy relationship, you may be angry, annoyed, or hurt by your partner. In an abusive relationship, you are afraid of their reaction. Yes.
Scott Benner Yep. If you recognize these signs, please know that leaving is a process that you do not have to do alone. The National Domestic Violence hotline, 80799 or +1 807997233, or you can text start to 88788. And safety planning, they can help you to create a safety plan to keep you safe while you're in this, relationship or while you're preparing to leave. Think we covered it?
Scott Benner Yeah?
Phoebe Yes. Excellent.
Scott Benner You're really brave. I appreciate you sharing this with me twice like this. Okay?
Phoebe Mhmm.
Scott Benner Is it hard that that list feels like I read your life to you. Right?
Phoebe Yes. A lot of it is familiar. He, I never had a hand laid on me. Like, my kids would say that it was a little over the top, some of the things done to them, and it sometimes it's hard to tell because you grew up the same generation I did. You know how parenting was when we were kids.
Phoebe So it's very hard to move into this new age of parenting.
Scott Benner It it does. When you grew up in the seventies, it does feel like everybody's just being super nice. You're like, what's why? Because everybody's such a baby for it. Nobody could take a backhand to their head anymore.
Phoebe I know.
Scott Benner Yeah. Yeah. No. And I it is crazy, but listen. I've been pretty you know, I I've tried to be transparent on the podcast a lot.
Scott Benner I've you know, my dad would, like, kick the shit out of me. Like, he and all he was looking for was submission. He just wanted you to stop arguing with him.
Phoebe Mhmm.
Scott Benner Or agree with him or whatever. It was pretty common.
Phoebe I say.
Scott Benner Yeah. It was pretty common. And some of that bleeds over into my personality, and then you have to, like, live through another generation and realize I can't do that and then try to stop it. And if you're reasonably sane still, you know, if you're able to hold it together a little bit, sometimes you can make those changes. But often, you know, people struggle with that.
Scott Benner You are a product of your, you know, of how you were raised and and a bit about your wiring. So, you know, that's it. I I don't I don't know another way to put it. You can you you can get a dog and pet it and love it and it'll be lovely or you can kick it and it's not gonna be lovely. And, you know, Phoebe, you got kicked.
Scott Benner So now you've now you're alone and and away from all that. It sounds to me like you're gonna be able to put something really lovely together for yourself, your this part of your life, the second half of your life.
Phoebe I sure hope so.
Finding Calm and Moving Forward
Scott Benner Yeah. I think you're well on your way. It's awesome. These kids will drag you down with their demands and financial needs. They well, they probably wanna eat every day.
Scott Benner Right?
Phoebe Yes. Yes. They wanna eat all the time. There's no there's no break, and that that's the diabetes life. It seems like every day, there's something that has fallen off.
Scott Benner Listen. If you can keep two kids with diabetes alive, then everyone listening can. I don't wanna hear it from any of you. Alright? I don't I I'm too busy.
Scott Benner Yeah? Are you? Listen to this story. My goodness. You people will make a lot of people, I hope, feel better about their situation.
Scott Benner I think a lot of people are about to hit stop and think, gotta stop complaining so much.
Phoebe Yes. Yes. Because that that last night, I had the police at at the house. They're like, you sleep different ends of the house. I went out.
Phoebe I talked to my called my law enforcement friend. I'm talking to my dad outside, and then he's now my ex. He he texts me. So and so's pump just fell off. What do I do?
Phoebe Like, you're kidding me. We are in this family crisis. In the
Scott Benner middle of a crisis, they're like, hey. This insulin pump is a problem. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Phoebe Yeah. Right. Yes. We we're gonna change change out her sight now.
Scott Benner Diabetes does find a way to, like, you know
Phoebe He never sleeps.
Scott Benner Yeah. He creeps up on his though. You know what I've learned, though? It always just feels like the worst time. It's not really the worst time.
Scott Benner It's just there's no good time for someone to tell you my insulin pump just fell off. You you know? So oh my gosh. Wow. You you I I wanna wish you a happy New Year and a great new start for you.
Scott Benner This is I'm I'm excited for you. I mean, honestly, there's nowhere to go but up. So we're
Phoebe Yes. Yeah. It's fine. That is we're on the way.
Scott Benner Your life gets worse.
Phoebe Yeah. And if we get
Scott Benner I'm just gonna assume there's someone out for you. You know what I mean?
Phoebe Well, I it it should get better. It it is a lot less chaotic now.
Scott Benner Good.
Phoebe And, eventually, this story will get done, and at least one of the kids in the story. It's kind of like he's there there's gonna be a type one in the story, and he he's like he said, I can't have what you have. No one would believe it.
Scott Benner You live one of those situations where you hear people say, if I turn this into a movie, everybody would say, come on. That didn't happen to anybody.
Phoebe Yes. It's too ridiculous.
Scott Benner Can I ask, just a a last question? If you don't have an answer for it, it's fine. But do you find it difficult to exist in a calm situation? Does your body want the the chaos, or are you happy to be rid of it?
Phoebe I'm naturally ADHD, so I do not sit still. I can't watch TV or movies. The kids want me to watch movies. It I I will fall asleep, or I just don't want to. I always have to be doing multiple
Scott Benner I mean, like, life stuff. Like, there no one's calling the cops. Nobody's waving a gun around. Do do does your body go boring, or are you, like, okay with all that?
Phoebe No. I I do like calm. Like, if I am alone very little. So when I am alone, I don't want any TV. I don't want any noise.
Phoebe If the kids are all gone, I have the house quiet. I just there there's nothing. So I do crave just quiet and calm, which I get very little of. But I do have a hard I don't sit still. And I can sleep anywhere.
Phoebe Like, we've we've flew here. So I sit in that seat, and I I'm out. I sleep through the takeoff. I can sleep anywhere.
Scott Benner I've come to realize that the fact that I can sleep through a root canal has something to do with how I grew up. I'm like, oh, this is so calm. I'm safe. Good night. Yes.
Scott Benner I've learned that while I I am good at excelling in craziness
Phoebe Mhmm.
Scott Benner I don't prefer it. So, like, when things get calm and quiet like, my family always says to me, like, oh, you get like, they all like, sometimes everybody just leaves. You know what I mean? Like, the girls get up and they're like, we're going shopping. And they'll that they're just gone for, like, nine hour I don't know how you could do that, but they're just gone for nine hours.
Scott Benner And my son will, know, be like, hey. I'm going out to play basketball. People are like, what'd you do while we were going? I'm like, oh, I just sat here. I was like, it was awesome.
Scott Benner Just so quiet and still, like, that's what I want. But I think you get confused because I don't know. I've I've lived through the the, like, domestic version of storming the beach in Normandy. I'm good at it. Mhmm.
Scott Benner And and but it's not what I want.
Phoebe So No. I I like to be busy. Like, I I crochet or in that kind of thing. But there are a lot of times now the older I get like you said, when it's quiet, I can just sit, like, in one chair and not move.
Scott Benner Stare and just and just feel feel the calmness. Right? Like, how lovely it feels.
Phoebe Yes. Yes. Uh-oh. But I I if I am in a listening situation, like, for work or something, I I have I have to do something to focus. You know, if I to be listening to something
Scott Benner Okay.
Phoebe I I I have that helps me.
Scott Benner Good. Hey. Listen. Whatever works. When I first met my wife, this is years ago now, but I I I noticed very quickly, I'm like, she's not comfortable when things are good.
Scott Benner Like, when people are happy and getting along, it puts her on edge. I think it's like she's waiting for the other shoe to drop thing. And it's she's better now, like, much better at it now. But, like, in the very beginning, I was like, oh god. When people are happy, she's like, uh-oh.
Scott Benner This is just the calm before the storm.
Phoebe Yes. I I do like calm. I do struggle with people arguing. I I don't like and I am I I will try to calm
Scott Benner people. You're like, I hate doing this again. Just stop. Okay? Yes.
Scott Benner Yes. Phoebe needs a break.
Phoebe Yes. Phoebe needs a break. Yeah. So just keep calm, and that that's all that's all I'm looking for.
Scott Benner Happy New Year. Merry Christmas. Hold on one second for me. Thank you so much.
Phoebe Sure.
Closing & Sponsors
Scott Benner I'd like to remind you again about the MiniMed seven eighty g automated insulin delivery system, which, of course, anticipates, adjusts, and corrects every five minutes twenty four seven. It works around the clock so you can focus on what matters. The Juice Box community knows the importance of using technology to simplify managing diabetes. To learn more about how you can spend less time and effort managing your diabetes, visit my link, medtronicdiabetes.com/juicebox.
Scott Benner I'd like to thank the blood glucose meter that my daughter carries, the Kontoor Next Gen blood glucose meter. Learn more and get started today at kontoornext.com/juicebox. And don't forget, you may be paying more through your insurance right now for the meter you have than you would pay for the Kontoor Next Gen in cash. There are links in the show notes of the audio app you're listening in right now and links at juiceboxpodcast.com to Contour and all of the sponsors.
Scott Benner Thank you so much for listening. I'll be back very soon with another episode of the juice box podcast. If you're not already subscribed or following the podcast in your favorite audio app, like Spotify or Apple Podcasts, please do that now. Seriously, just to hit follow or subscribe will really help the show. If you go a little further in Apple Podcasts and set it up so that it downloads all new episodes, I'll be your best friend.
Scott Benner And if you leave a five star review, oh, I'll probably send you a Christmas card. Would you like a Christmas card?
Scott Benner How would you like to share a type one diabetes getaway like no other? Join me on Juice Cruise 2026. You may be asking, what is Juice Cruise? It's a week long cruise designed specifically for people and families living with type one diabetes. It's not just a vacation.
Scott Benner It's a chance to relax, connect, and feel understood in a way that is hard to find elsewhere. We're gonna sail out of Miami, and the cruise includes stops in CocoCay, San Juan, Saint Kitts, Nevis aboard the stunning Celebrity Beyond. This ship is chosen for its comfort, accessibility, and exceptional amenities. You're gonna enjoy a welcoming environment surrounded by others who get life with type one diabetes. I'm gonna host diabetes focused conversations and meetups on the days at sea.
Scott Benner There's thoughtfully designed spaces, incredible dining, and modern amenities all throughout the celebrity beyond. Your kids can be supervised and there's teen programs, so everyone gets time to recharge. Not just the the kids going on vacation, but maybe you get the kickback a little bit too. There's gonna be zero judgment, real connections, and a whole lot of sun and fun on Juice Cruise twenty twenty six. Please come with me.
Scott Benner You're going to have a terrific time. You can learn more or set up your deposit at juiceboxpodcast.com/juicecruise. Get ahold of Suzanne at cruise planners. She will take care of everything. Link's in the show notes.
Scott Benner Link's at juiceboxpodcast.com. Have a podcast? Want it to sound fantastic? Wrongwayrecording.com.
#1802 Mother of Invention
After years of confusion and missed signals, Roger confronts the truth about his diabetes—sharing diagnosis, adjustment, insulin, and the mindset shift that finally changed everything.
Companies that Support Juicebox
Key Takeaways
- Early Diabetes Care: Roger was diagnosed with Type 1 diabetes 58 years ago at age two, during an era of glass syringes, boiled needles, and urine testing, highlighting how far diabetes management has evolved.
- The Impact of High A1Cs: Living with A1Cs in the 14-15 range for many years led to severe complications for Roger, including total blindness by age 22 and subsequent heart issues.
- Resilience and Adaptation: Despite losing his sight, Roger continued to work, ultimately becoming a skilled custom furniture maker, proving that significant physical challenges can be overcome with determination and adapted methods.
- Accessibility in Diabetes Tech: Roger successfully uses a DIY closed-loop system (Loop) with his Omnipod DASH, relying on screen readers and custom-designed tools (like the "Pod Filler Plus") to manage his diabetes independently as a blind person.
- The Power of Education and Pre-bolusing: Even after decades with diabetes, Roger found immense value in learning modern management techniques, specifically the concept of pre-bolusing, which dramatically improved his A1C.
Resources Mentioned
- Juice Box Podcast Small Sips: Search for "Small Sips" in your podcast player.
- US Med: usmed.com/juicebox or call (888) 721-1514
- Eversense 365: eversensecgm.com/juicebox
- Tandem Mobi: tandemdiabetes.com/juicebox
- Contour Next ONE Meter: contournext.com/juicebox
- Loop and Learn (Facebook Group): Mentioned as a resource for DIY looping.
- Juice Cruise 2026: juiceboxpodcast.com/juicecruise
- Wrong Way Recording: wrongwayrecording.com
Introduction and Early Diagnosis
Scott Benner Friends, we're all back together for the next episode of the Juice Box podcast. Welcome.
Roger Hi. My name's, Roger Moore. I live in Alberta, Canada. I'm 60 years old. I was diagnosed at t one at the age of two.
Scott Benner If you'd like to hear about diabetes management in easy to take in bits, check out the small sips. That's the series on the Juice Box podcast that listeners are talking about like it's a cheat code. These are perfect little bursts of clarity, one person said. I finally understood things I've heard a 100 times. Short, simple, and somehow exactly what I needed.
Scott Benner People say small sips feels like someone pulling up a chair, sliding a cup across the table, and giving you one clean idea at a time. Nothing overwhelming. No fire hose of information, just steady helpful nudges that actually stick. People listen in their car, on walks, or rather actually bolusing anytime that they need a quick shot of perspective. And the reviews, they all say the same thing.
Scott Benner Small sips makes diabetes make sense. Search for the Juice Box podcast, small sips, wherever you get audio. Nothing you hear on the Juice Box podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise. Always consult a physician before making any changes to your health care plan.
Roger This
Scott Benner episode of the Juice Box podcast is sponsored by US Med, usmed.com/juicebox, or call (888) 721-1514. Get your supplies the same way we do from US Med. Today's episode is also sponsored by the Eversense three sixty five, the one year wear CGM. That's one insertion a year. That's it.
Scott Benner And here's a little bonus for you. How about there's no limit on how many friends and family you can share your data with with the Eversense Now app? No limits. Eversense. The podcast is also sponsored today by the Tandem Mobi system, which is powered by Tandem's newest algorithm, Control IQ Plus technology.
Scott Benner Tandem Mobi has a predictive algorithm that helps prevent highs and lows and is now available for ages two and up. Learn more and get started today at tandemdiabetes.com/juicebox.
Roger Hi. My name's, Raj Moore. I live in Alberta, Canada. I'm 60 years old. I was diagnosed at t one at the age of two.
Scott Benner No kidding. Fifty eight years ago. You born in Canada?
Roger Yes. Ontario.
Scott Benner Okay.
Roger Yeah. I moved out to Alberta in 2012.
Scott Benner Oh, that's interesting. Okay. So you've had diabetes for fifty eight years.
Roger Yeah. My father was also a diabetic, forty seven years. Fortunately, he passed away in o nine at 71.
Scott Benner 71. And he was diagnosed in his thirties?
Roger I think he was twenty twenty seven.
Scott Benner 27.
Roger 27. Yeah.
Scott Benner Wow.
Roger Yeah. He just dropped dead in the driveway.
Scott Benner Did you feel like he was in good health and it was surprising or no?
Roger Apparently, he had about 50% kidney function before I find out this later because we went to the same endo. Yeah. He was he was a big man and, you know, strong. But he wouldn't
Scott Benner Wouldn't tell anybody if he wasn't doing well?
Roger Pardon?
Scott Benner You think he wouldn't tell people if he wasn't doing well?
Roger Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Worked all his life. Right?
Roger Had nothing, and then, you know, worked all his life and then just kept on going.
Speaker 3 Yeah. His motto was keep your foot on the gas.
Scott Benner Yeah. Sounds like it worked off alright for him for a for a a good long while.
Roger Well, that's the way he wanted to go. So anyways what?
Scott Benner I hear you. So he's got type one while you're growing up. I mean, do you know how how old were is he about when you were born?
Roger I'm the youngest boy out of with five kids, and my sister's the youngest. Mhmm. Yeah. He was about 26 maybe.
Scott Benner You think he was diagnosed just after you were or just before you were born maybe? Just after you were born. Yeah. Right around there.
Roger Yeah. It was still glass syringes, and I think my mom used to sharpen the needles on a stone.
Scott Benner Wow.
Roger You boil all that. I do blood testing with a little urine testing.
Scott Benner And Yeah.
Roger And then, you know, I was also I was I was born with a a VSD, which is a ventricular septal defect with a heart heart murmur.
Scott Benner Mhmm.
Roger And they never they did two catheters. They never decided to close it. It wasn't giving me any problems, but hey. Well, I'll get into that later, but I eventually did have it closed.
Scott Benner Okay. So, Roger, you you think your dad had not had type one diabetes for very long before you were diagnosed with it? His youngest son of how many?
Roger Five kids.
Scott Benner Five kids. All together. Yeah. You the youngest boy or the youngest kid?
Roger Youngest boy. Youngest boy. And my sister's the youngest.
Scott Benner Okay. So he's got an, basically a newborn with type one diabetes. His diabetes is fairly newborn, and he's sharpening needles. Do you know what your management was like? Do you have any idea how they they took care of you in the early days?
Scott Benner Do you ever talk about it?
Roger Because my dad had it. My mom knew something was up with me, and she would squeeze squeeze the urine out of my diaper and test it.
Scott Benner Oh, okay.
Roger It was a little test kit you get with, you know, water, urine, and that little pill you put in right now with fizz. Mhmm. And you give a color color code a, and by what the I was in sick kids hospital. She took me there, then I I come out on one unit of insulin, you know, the age of l two. You know, a bill or two.
Growing Up with Diabetes in the 60s and 70s
Scott Benner Was she giving you that with with needles she sharpened herself?
Speaker 3 Yeah. I'm just kidding. I hope
Roger they sharpened herself.
Scott Benner But Well, I've heard people talk about that. That's why I did I know.
Speaker 3 It probably did way back. Yeah. Yeah. But, no,
Roger they were glass syringes, and she had to boil them.
Scott Benner Yeah.
Roger You know? Yeah. For my dad and myself. And
Scott Benner So you're getting, in the beginning, just a shot a day?
Roger Yep.
Scott Benner Okay.
Roger One shot a
Scott Benner When do you think your management changed? Like, many years did you live on one shot a day? Then when did it go to two, and how did it progress? Do you know the progression of it?
Roger I was in my teens. I was seeing a pediatrician since I, you know, I got diabetes. I was in my teens, and he decided to put me on two needles a day and then add some quick acting.
Scott Benner Okay.
Roger Mixing it. Right? And as a teen, a, you know, young, you know, third 12, 13, 14 kind of age. Right? But then when, you
Speaker 3 know,
Roger when when you become 15, 16 years old, all hell breaks loose. You don't give a a rat. I suppose you're diabetes. Right?
Scott Benner Not on the top of your of your list. But so you did you're telling me you think you did one shot a day from two years old into your early teens, then they went to two shots, and then eventually gave you a fast acting they like a mealtime insulin they gave you?
Roger They mix it.
Scott Benner Oh, okay.
Roger Yep. They mix. Yeah.
Scott Benner Alright. So you're getting two a day. And are you taking those two shots a day with regularity?
Roger Yep. Yes.
Scott Benner Okay. Yep. And then when's the next time it shifts? Because what is that regular in Miles per hour or is that beef and pork? Beef and pork.
Roger I was glad. Okay. And Dan Fraunil, they called it. Yep.
Scott Benner Oh, that's right. Yeah. You're in Canada. Yeah. And so you're doing that until regular and Miles per hour, which happens when?
Roger It's probably in the nineties.
Scott Benner Okay.
Roger Because I was blind at that time.
Losing Sight and the Aftermath
Scott Benner So you lost your sight? Yes. At what age?
Roger I was 22.
Scott Benner 22.
Roger And Yeah. The yeah. Through 87, I was having problems. Just a week before Christmas was my last surgery, and that was basically it.
Scott Benner So so you're growing up with eye issues, and but nobody says to you maybe you should take more insulin?
Roger My a one c's were fourteen, fifteen.
Scott Benner Okay.
Roger And my pediatrician, he never you he never say nothing to me. He would write on my blood requisition. Know I'm diabetic, so they wouldn't call him at, you know, two in the morning. Right? Tell him there was a problem.
Roger Yeah.
Scott Benner The guy in the lab's not oh my gosh. But but but if he feels that way, then why is he not helping you do something about it?
Roger I never knew diabetics could go blind until I was started going blind. They have just uneducated.
Scott Benner Yeah.
Roger Just uneducated about the whole thing. And by that time, it's too late. Right? Because that that fifteen, twenty years of having diabetes is when it starts creeping up on you.
Scott Benner Your best guess is you had diabetes fifteen, twenty fifteen years with a one c's in the twelve, thirteen, 14 range. Yep. And then what's the first do you remember what the first sign was that you were having trouble with your eyesight?
Roger My doctor, he he said, I I go every six months. He says, yeah. Yeah. He goes, I can see some activity in the back of your eyes. I gotta send you a book to the ophthalmologist, which I would go every year anyways.
Roger And then but, you know, I guess he he that was, like, between time. So off I went. And then, yeah, and then the late while the laser started
Scott Benner The lasers?
Roger I was going down. Was going down to Toronto, Western Hospital for the laser treatments. Oh.
Scott Benner What were they like, and how frequently were they?
Roger Sure. They were once a week for a while. They they try and stop the bleeding in the eyes. Mhmm. They didn't they didn't hurt any a little little zap, you know, but they didn't.
Roger Then it got to the point where I end up having this is my right eye, the first one that I lost use of. They did a they call it vitrectomy where they actually go in and they clean out all the scar tissue and some other stuff in there. And they put saline in it. Right? And they I had two of them done.
Roger And this after the second one through the night, it hammered really bad, and they said that about a week later, they said that the the has detached and is basically useless. It's unfixable.
Scott Benner Oh my god. How old were you then?
Roger 22.
Scott Benner 22. Yep. Wow. I mean, that's a long time ago now, but can you do your best to take me back to that point when that happens? Do you remember how that affects your life?
Scott Benner Maybe beyond the vision?
Roger Well, you know, I I we're at a full time job. And then I also my dad and I, I I trained, quarter horses, barrel racing horses. I did and I did lots of competition, and then all of a sudden, your doctor said, no more. Yeah.
Scott Benner That's that.
Roger You gotta because all the balancing around, right, you had to stop. Right?
Scott Benner So, Roger, the main I mean, your hobby and and your job, like, you love, just they just end. And does that I mean, can you put yourself back in that spot? What is that does it put you into a depression? Does it motivate you to try something else? Do you start worrying more about your other eye?
Scott Benner Like, what what happens next?
Roger Well, I was actually, they were working on both eyes at the same time.
Scott Benner Okay.
Roger After it was in August, I lost the the use of the right eye, and then they were working on the the left eye. And then I have a track to me on it. And then I end up having to go back in just the week before Christmas, and they did another one, but they did a bunch of other work was on it. They I I think they tipped they call it a buckle. Mhmm.
Roger I remember right. I think they tipped the eye to try and keep the pressure in the back, and they fill it full of a saline bubble. And there's you know, talking almost forty years ago. Right?
Scott Benner Yeah. This procedure, is that just, like, four or five months after the right eye goes? Yep. Okay. And, I mean, at this point, you gotta be like, this ain't gonna work.
Scott Benner Right? Like, I mean
Roger I never I never thought that. I always you always have hope. Right? You always have hope you're gonna get better. But with that in your mind, you're gonna get better.
Roger And then then when I went back to the my doctor, he sent me after the the last surgery, you know, after Christmas in around February, they sent me to another doctor who was specialized in ultrasound on eyes, and he just said, if you touch the eye, it'll just crumble. There's nothing you can do anymore. And I just said he said, my head I'm blind.
Scott Benner Yeah. Just like that. Now this process, the first time you you have trouble with your eye, tell me again, you're about what age?
Roger Well, it came on. It was it was everything was done within a year.
Scott Benner Happened real fast. Okay.
Roger Oh, yeah.
Scott Benner So from the first from that doctor saying, hey. We're gonna send you over the optometrist a little sooner this year to Yep. Gone blind is about a year, year and a half.
Roger Yep. Yep. I was you know, it was over pretty quick.
Scott Benner You dating anybody at that time? No. No. Okay. Were you living with your parents still?
Scott Benner Yes. Okay. Yeah. Does that turn you right back into a little kid? Like, I mean, does your like, god, that's gotta be terrible.
Scott Benner Right? But, like, all of a sudden, you're dependent on people learning how to I mean, I guess you gotta learn how to be blind. Right?
Sponsor Messages
Scott Benner This episode is sponsored by Tandem Diabetes Care. And today, I'm gonna tell you about Tandem's newest pumping algorithm, The Tandem Mobi system with Control IQ plus technology features auto bolus, which can cover missed meal boluses and help prevent hyperglycemia.
Scott Benner It has a dedicated sleep activity setting and is controlled from your personal iPhone. Tandem will help you to check your benefits today through my link, tandemdiabetes.com/juicebox. This is going to help you to get started with Tandem's smallest pump yet that's powered by its best algorithm ever. Control IQ plus technology helps to keep blood sugars in range by predicting glucose levels thirty minutes ahead, and it adjusts insulin accordingly. You can wear the Tandem Mobi in a number of ways.
Scott Benner Wear it on body with a patch like adhesive sleeve that is sold separately, clip it discreetly to your clothing, or slip it into your pocket. Head now to my link, tandemdiabetes.com/juicebox, to check out your benefits and get started today.
Scott Benner You've probably heard me talk about US Med and how simple it is to reorder with US Med using their email system. But did you know that if you don't see the email and you're set up for this, you have to set it up. They don't just randomly call you.
Scott Benner But I'm set up to be called if I don't respond to the email because I don't trust myself, a 100%. So one time, I didn't respond to the email and the phone rings at the house. And it's like, ring, you know how it works. And I picked it up. Was like, hello?
Scott Benner And it was just the recording. It was like, US med, doesn't actually sound like that, but you know what I'm saying. It said, hey, you're, I don't remember exactly what it says, but it's basically like, hey, your order's ready. You want us to send it? Push this button if you want us to send it.
Scott Benner Or if you'd like to wait, I think it it lets you put it off, a couple of weeks or push this button for that. That's pretty much it. I push the button to send it, and a few days later, box right at my door. That's it. Usmed.com/juicebox or call (888) 721-1514.
Scott Benner Get your free benefits checked now and get started with USmed. Dexcom, Omnipod, Tandem, Freestyle, they've got all your favorites. Even that new islet pump. Check them out now at usmed.com/juicebox or by calling (888) 721-1514. There are links in the show notes of your podcast player and links at juiceboxpodcast.com to US Med and to all of the sponsors.
Rebuilding Life: Woodworking Without Sight
Roger I I was really active too. Right? I had all the horses and I had my old vehicles and
Scott Benner Yeah.
Roger You know, like
Scott Benner Just all of a sudden just gone?
Roger Just everything just stops instantly. And I'm, you know, I'm laying on the couch, listening to the TV, and, you know, I guess getting probably depressed. And my dad finally kicks me in the ass and said, man, you you can't do the rest laying the couch the rest of your life. You gotta get do something. Go back to school and
Scott Benner Figure something out. Yeah. Yeah. My god. After this all because it happens quickly.
Scott Benner I imagine once it starts, it's a it's a roller coaster till till the part that we're up to now. But at any point, do you start wondering, like, how did this happen? Is there something I shouldn't be doing? Are there other things being damaged that I don't know about? We just know about our eyes that the doctors speak up.
Scott Benner Like, around the diabetes, does anybody try to help you?
Roger No. Nobody. Nobody. I don't I don't know if they even knew. Like, it is the education back then just wasn't
Scott Benner About forty years ago?
Roger Yeah. Like, I you know?
Scott Benner Is that eighty five? Am I right?
Roger Probably more of my own fault too because I wasn't really involved. I was involved in so much other stuff.
Scott Benner Yeah. Not not really parenting.
Speaker 3 So You
Roger know, I'm I I admit I you know, I'm the blame for it. It's it's all my
Scott Benner Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's tough, though. Right. As a 60 year old guy, it's easy to sit here and have that kind of clarity.
Scott Benner But when you're two and you get diagnosed at a time when they're like, here's a shot. Here's another one. We're not really testing it. And then you become like you say, you become a teenager. You're not paying attention to it.
Scott Benner Like, it's hard to put the blame on that little boy. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. That's tough.
Scott Benner I don't think I'm behind you blaming yourself, to be perfectly honest with you. Timing and age, tough to blame you.
Roger Yeah. And land, at least, you know, lack of education. Right?
Scott Benner Yeah. Plus Canada. Not for nothing. I've heard stories. Okay.
Scott Benner So
Roger Freaking the worst worst thing to get anything approved, man.
Scott Benner Like, it Takes forever. Right? You see, you know, isn't it funny, like, the messaging if you're here, the messaging is, oh, Canada, it's free. You know? And when I talk to Canadians, they're like, sure.
Scott Benner It's free, but it takes me nine months to get there. Or or right? If you're not dying, you slide to the end of the list too with right? Am I right?
Roger Yeah. Yeah.
Scott Benner Oh,
Roger yeah. That's I know y'all wanna separate out here now. Mhmm.
Scott Benner Yeah. Well, the grass is always greener when you're hearing about other people's, like, you know, setups is what I'm saying. But, man, first of all, I know it's a long time ago, and you're not looking for my sympathy, but I'm so sorry. That's just you know, it's a tough role, man.
Roger Yeah. Yeah. It's great. It's no. It's not as I don't know the statistics now, but I I I imagine it's all the improvements in surgery and medicine and that this freak of diabetics going blind.
Scott Benner I would imagine it's far less.
Roger Happens. Like, my dad was going through bike's trouble too. Right? So
Scott Benner Yeah. So when your dad kicks you in the ass, what do you do? Do you get up or you'd be like, how about I just sit here for about a year and we'll talk about it? Like, did you, like
Roger It's it's funny. When I was driving, I my my grade, seven and eight shop teacher, I always knew where he lived, Dave Lawrence. So I call him up. You know? I find his phone number.
Roger I call him on home one day, and I told him I haven't talked to him for long time. Right? And he actually he he called to the house, and he had just gotten transferred to the high school as the tech director. And my back background is more mechanical Mhmm. Engines and stuff.
Roger Right? Because my dad had a construction company. So they didn't I wanted to take small engines maybe, and then they they didn't have it at the school then. He said, well, just come into the woodshop shop. We have an adult woodworking class.
Roger We're all retired adults coming in a, you know, couple of periods. They can do what they really want. So I went in there, and I I liked it. Right? And I I never dreamed I could do that kind of stuff.
Scott Benner Roger, you told me you can do
Roger woodworking without sight? Oh, yeah. Done it for, thirty seven years.
Scott Benner No kidding. You made a living at it?
Roger Yep. I had a shop back in, Ontario. Yeah.
Scott Benner That's awesome. With the passage of time, are you able to look back and think, like, I can't believe I accomplished all this, or does it not even feel that hard once you got involved in it and started trying?
More Sponsor Messages
Scott Benner This episode of the Juice Box podcast is sponsored by Eversense three sixty five. And just as the name says, it lasts for a full year. Imagine for a second a CGM with just one sensor placement and one warm up period every year.
Scott Benner Imagine a sensor that has exceptional accuracy over that year and is actually the most accurate CGM in the low range that you can get. What if I told you that this sensor had no risk of falling off or being knocked off? That may seem too good to be true, but I'm not even done telling you about it yet. The Eversense three sixty five has essentially no compression lows. It features incredibly gentle adhesive for its transmitter.
Scott Benner You can take the transmitter off when you don't wanna wear your CGM and put it right back on without having to waste the sensor or go through another warm up period. The app works with iOS and Android, even Apple Watch. You can manage your diabetes instead of your CGM with the Eversense three sixty five. Learn more and get started today at eversincecgm.com/juicebox. One year, one cgm.
Roger It doesn't feel that hard once you get going or anything.
Scott Benner Yeah. That's awesome. Like, what did you make in your shop?
Roger Well, in the in the after I got going all the equipment I had in there, I was making custom furniture for people, like buffet hutches and dressers and, you know, blanket boxes, a lot of them. And and then I made the one store. I would do all his custom order stuff. People wanted something made. I would you know, big wall units and stuff like that.
Roger And then when I first originally started the old the the horse barn, I gutted all the stalls out, and so I put all my equipment in. Well, then we moved down to another town south, which was it was in town, but it was still it was an acre or a piece of property, and and my dad put up a big shop there for me. So I got into doing more more, like, more custom higher end stuff for people, like, in Toronto and stuff.
Scott Benner Roger, as a person who has their site and tried to build a cage for a chameleon to live in and looks at it now and realizes it's not really very square, and a couple of other things, are you telling me that you could accomplish that at a high level? Or are you telling me that all around Canada is a bunch of janky crooked furniture that nobody had the heart to tell you about when they bought it from you? Is so discomfort?
Speaker 3 No. No. It's square. Hey.
Scott Benner That's awesome. I mean, can you walk me through that? Like, without your sight, how do you, I mean, how are you running a saw? How do you do stuff like that?
Roger I already asked you that all carefully, man. I got push sticks and stuff. I've never you know, I got all my fingers still on there. And so
Scott Benner Goddamn. That's a bigger accomplishment than anything else I Yeah. Gotta be honest with you.
Speaker 3 Actually, when I moved to Milton, there's a fellow that was retired, and he wasn't doing nothing. So, like, he came down, and
Roger he was, you know, working kinda part time for me, helping me out. There's machines I wouldn't let him touch, and they're they're too dangerous.
Scott Benner Yeah. I'll get that, you idiot. You stay over there.
Speaker 3 Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's almost pretty dangerous. No
Scott Benner kidding. No kidding, man. That is really phenomenal. Now did you ever figure out how to take care of your diabetes?
Pumping, Looping, and Invention
Roger Well, see, I'll always go by my my get my a one c done, and it was, you know, seven, eight. And then they would say, that's good. Oh, you're boring. Leave.
Scott Benner Well, how
Roger did I think, oh, okay. Everything's cool. Right?
Scott Benner So Yeah. But, Roger, tell me something. Like, what what is that? The modernization? Like, they got you on faster acting insulin.
Scott Benner You started counting carbs. Like, how did you get from those fourteens to the seven and eight?
Roger I never started counting carbs all last
Scott Benner year. Last year? Really?
Roger Really counting carbs, I just kinda could estimate. Okay. That side of much food need needs needs this much insulin. Right?
Scott Benner I've interviewed other people who don't have their sight. Like, are you, like, pitch black blind? Do you have some you are. You don't see you don't see anything.
Speaker 3 Okay.
Scott Benner And so I'm gonna get to that in a minute. But so you're telling me I mean, I'm assuming you were just like, look. I I'm using a saw with without my sight. I'm not counting carbs. Like, you're already living on the edge, I guess.
Scott Benner Yeah. What started last year? Like, what changed last year that made you count carbs?
Roger I went on a pump Mhmm. In 2010. My endo retired. I got a new young guy. I asked him about a pump, and he says, sure.
Roger Try it. Go try it. See we see what you can do. Mhmm. So down you know, I go down into the where the pump's place is, and they they set me up with a an Accu Chek Spirit pump.
Roger It's just a, you know, a manual pump. Right?
Scott Benner Yeah.
Roger Yeah. And it and it beeps. All the button pushes beep. And I mean, well, the the Amberley, the the work for Roche, Accu Chek, but the pump she wrote all these instructions out, and I still have them on my computer. All the button pushes to what goes how it works.
Roger Right? And Yeah. And it was a little bit a little scary in the beginning. Right? Like, you know, a little couple of panic modes when you get an inclusion.
Roger What what's this? Right? Right. Bars are going off, but, you know, I finally figured how to handle that. Couple years ago, Roche actually pulled out of North America, but it was a lure lock setup, and the and the one part is a rubber, like, rubber seal part.
Roger I couldn't get any parts anymore. I I must have went around and bought everything up in Canada to keep going. Right? And I was using Medtronic and lure lock sets that Educator now in Edmonton found me.
Scott Benner Mhmm. You're just trying to keep because you know the pump. You know how to use it, so you wanna keep using it as long as you can. Yeah. Yeah.
Roger And I was, like, come to grips with that. Okay. I'm going back on the needle.
Scott Benner Oh, yeah. Yeah. Funnel hour. Alright? It's a good run, but I'm out of here.
Scott Benner But did you try another pump, or did you There
Roger were there was nothing that would work. They all went to this this flat screen stuff.
Scott Benner Oh, touchscreen messes you up.
Roger Yeah. Touchscreen and, you know, my phone, there's a touchscreen, but it has a built in speech.
Scott Benner Right.
Roger So, anyways, one one day is on the lot. In 2024, Robin, I guess, and my doctor Rogers, they talk trying to find me an alternative. Well, they I guess they came up with looping.
Scott Benner Okay. So Tell me you loop with an Omnipod. Do you?
Roger Yes.
Scott Benner Get out of here.
Roger A dash. Yeah.
Scott Benner Okay. No kidding. Since It's a a phone app, and so you can use your basically, the speech, it helps you on the phone.
Roger BC Diabetes in British Columbia, they have tech guys on staff, and they build the app for people. You sign a waiver. Right? And so they'll build the app, and they'll help you install it on your phone. And they'll do it through you know, they did it, like, through my clinic, got me set up with that, and they maintain it.
Roger Fremont, they'll update it. I had it installed on my phone in May 2024, and I'm thinking, this is great. I can, you know, operate everything. That's, like, my manual pump, I had to get someone to look at the screen if I wanted to do any basal changes
Scott Benner Sure.
Roger You know, setting changes. Well, I can do everything myself with this loop app. So June, I went back to Edmonton, Robin hooked me up with the pump, and we put it in a zip bag, and I used I showed it was saline
Scott Benner Okay.
Roger So I could get used to changing the switching out the pump. Right?
Scott Benner Okay.
Roger And I just carry this little zippy bag with a pump in it with saline. Right? And just operate it that way along with the my manual pump. And then was in October that I went full on with insulin.
Scott Benner Before you started looping, what was your a one c before you started looping?
Roger 6.97.
Scott Benner Okay. And have you had any other complications other than your eyes?
Roger In 2005, I was exercising on my bike, and my throat started getting tight up each side. So I told my doctor. Next thing you know, I'm I'm in getting an angiogram done. And then, yeah, I got three blockages and two arteries, so I had to open heart surgery bypass surgery in March.
Scott Benner Okay.
Roger 2005. Well, through the night, I suffered a stroke and a heart attack, and I was kept in induced coma for two weeks. And then I end up I lost the use of my left leg and left arm. I did regain it, but I did I was transferred to a rehab hospital and spent about three months there learning how to walk.
Scott Benner Any deficits since the rehab?
Roger I I suffer with muscle spasticity. It's tightness. The muscles won't relax.
Speaker 3 Mhmm.
Roger I mean, other than that, I, you know, I can walk, you know, not far anymore. Well, that's because I've had some other back issues related from arthritis and all that stuff.
Scott Benner Okay. Okay. So you have, like, a six nine before you start looping, but that was what? That was the pump. You were able to give yourself insulin more frequently.
Scott Benner You were on a basal, so your a one c came down. You started I imagine you learned more as you went, you know, about taking care of your blood sugars and stuff like that. How do you know when your blood sugar's high and low? You test with a meter?
Roger I use the Contour Next one. I was messing around with some apps, you know, the Accu Chek app and then the other one, and I got the Contour Next one to hook up to my iPod, which talks.
Scott Benner Okay.
Roger And I I still use that to this day, and I can pair it by myself. I'd be on greetings and everything. And I use a no. I use a Dexcom, which, you know, for looping. Right?
Roger I was using the Libre, but I had to switch to the Dexcom.
Scott Benner Okay. Well, again, let me just say this, Roger. Contournext.com/juicebox if you'd like to learn more about that meter. It's a great meter. You made the meter talk through the through your iPod, did you say, or your phone?
Roger My iPod and my phone.
Scott Benner Okay. Okay. So you get your meter that way. How often a day do you think you're testing before CGMs?
Roger Probably eight to 10 times.
Scott Benner Okay.
Roger After my heart surgery. Yeah. That kinda really smart me out. I actually had a a silent heart attack as well in 2012.
Scott Benner Kick the
Roger Jesus. They said it was in in 2000. I just might just bloated in my gut. Well, long story short, I had a pericardium they call it, and they they stuck a needle in the sack of my heart, trained a liter and a fluid of a liter and half of fluid off in all my abdomen and my lungs. That was fun stuff.
Roger That was fun stuff. Hospital food hospital food sucks. Jesus, god.
Scott Benner Alright. Well, I I wanna get back to the looping. So they they slapped this loop on you. Would you say twenty twenty four? Yes.
Scott Benner Jerry, once he go down again?
Roger Went from 6.9 to 6.5 to 5.8, and the last one was six.
Scott Benner Jesus. God, Roger. I don't know you, and that almost made me cry. That's awesome, man. Good for you.
Scott Benner That's really wonderful.
Roger You know, I guess the Loop app has that, graph, which I can't, you know, I obviously can't see it. Yeah. I joined that Loop and Learn Facebook group.
Scott Benner Mhmm.
Roger And, you know, you know, know, Kenny Fox. Yeah. Listen to lots of his stuff. Lots of you and Jennifer there. So
Scott Benner Oh, no kidding. I didn't know you knew the podcast. I don't know how anybody gets to me. So, like, oh, that's Yeah. That's awesome.
Roger I've listened to lots of that, and I learned lots from the other unfortunately, other people's problems off the loop and learn.
Scott Benner Okay.
Roger And I, you I save all this stuff on my computer, read it, and on the loop docs, I read all that. I got to the point where I was just getting burnt. I would've reading all this stuff and you know, because I have to listen to it through my computer. Mhmm. At night, I'd next thing you know, I'd start at seven, and I'd wake up at ten.
Scott Benner It's it's boring.
Speaker 3 Oh, yeah. You listen to this voice, this robotic voice synthesized voice in my ears. Right? Next thing I'm going to sleep.
Scott Benner Yeah. I mean, we got somebody gotta get you set up with AI. That's got a more natural voice to read to you. Yeah.
Roger I think you can change it.
Scott Benner Oh, okay. But still oh my gosh. So loop it loop and learn, man, that's isn't it something that it's just a group of people who put that all together, like, changed your life that much? It's wonderful. Yeah.
Roger I did Robin put Trio on my phone, and within five minutes, I I took it off because I knew it wouldn't work.
Scott Benner You didn't like Trio?
Roger No. Well, it wouldn't interact with my phone.
Scott Benner Oh, I see. With this.
Roger Because when they make an app, sometimes they don't label them properly, and there was just all it would say is edit. Edit. Well, what what am I gonna edit?
Scott Benner I pretty I gotta tell you something. The people who made that app probably just heard you say that. I wonder if they'll fix it. Get
Roger going. Hopefully.
Scott Benner Yeah. Yeah. Get going, guys. What are doing over there? Your free time.
Scott Benner Because
Roger I gotta lay like, the loop the loop app is perfect. There is no
Scott Benner Every button's labeled correctly for the the speech thing.
Roger The only thing you gotta be careful of of with with the Loop app, when you you know, when you're priming your pump, it gives you a percentage.
Scott Benner Mhmm.
Roger What I have to do is I have to swipe to the left and then, like, and then get the percentage, swipe to the right, and then swipe to the left. It'll give me the percentage again. It won't you can't leave it on the percentage, and it'll it won't pick it up counting down. Okay. Yeah.
Roger You suddenly know, little things like that, you gotta learn. Right? And there's a couple other things. You just gotta swipe left, right, and then you'll get to the
Scott Benner I wonder how many other people are using it the way you are. Do you have any idea? Have you met anybody else?
Roger Apparently, I'm the first one in Canada.
Scott Benner No. No kidding. Well, it's it's wonderful that it's helping you like that. It really is.
Roger Maybe they they they I was at a conference in Toronto in November, and they did a presentation, the one fella, and they submitted it to the the one in Spain and got accepted in that conference in Spain. Okay. Yeah. So I guess
Scott Benner Well, that's wonderful. I don't I don't know a ton about what you just said there, but, like, I think it's just really fascinating that something that a group of people, you know, came together online and then met each other in person and did all this wonderful work, and and it's reaching you in Ontario. It's really, really just wonderful.
Roger So going back to the loop for a second.
Scott Benner Yeah. Yeah.
Roger You're on the side of the loop where you have the little tiny hole where you gotta put the needle in to fill it. Mhmm. Well, there's a problem.
Scott Benner It's a little hard to find, is it?
Roger So what I did, I have a a computer controlled router in my shop.
Scott Benner You build a jig and put it in it? Yes. No kidding. Look. I used to have a real job, Roger.
Scott Benner You must have been pretty impressed just now when I came up with that.
Roger It's it's a pocket, and we it's a rectangle pocket, and then we put some, you know, j b weld. You ever heard that stuff called j b weld?
Scott Benner It's like epoxy? Yeah. Yeah.
Roger Yeah. We put that in the corners, and we push the pod in to make the mold and it harden. And then I built an arm with a seven sixteen hole in it, and it the needle goes in it, and it drop you line it up, and it drops straight down into the hole.
Scott Benner It hits that hole in the Omnipod, and then you can feel it push through, and then you send in the insulin.
Roger Fill it. So I let BC Diabetes have the let them three d print it.
Scott Benner Okay.
Roger So they're selling them on Amazon. No kidding. They're called pod filler. It's for people with
Scott Benner Like like, dexterity issues.
Roger Dexterity. Yeah. And then there's one called pod filler plus, which it has it's for blind people and has three posts on the back. One's a 150, 200, and 300. So you use a pen cartridge.
Roger There's a little holder there too that they've they come up with it to put the this the pen and the cartridge in, use a pen cartridge, and you just push it in. Right? Mhmm. And it's all because the the syringe that comes with the pod only holds 200, so you got a 100 left. So you can use that 100, save two of them, and then use the the taller post to
Scott Benner use them off. Do you have any video? Has anybody ever videoed the filler working?
Roger Yeah. That doctor Elliot has.
Scott Benner I'd love to see that. I would love to see that work. That's that's really something. Boy, that's ingenious. You came up with that.
Roger Yeah. Yeah. The wooden one, they it's all it's all plastic now, three d printed ones.
Scott Benner Yeah. I guess they say necessity is the mother of invention. Right? So
Roger Yeah. Yeah. I'd let them do it. It's guess, my gift to the community.
Scott Benner Yeah. It's beautiful. It helps somebody. Listen. I I hear from older people all the time who wonder, like, how am I supposed to do this when I get older?
Scott Benner Dexterity is one thing, you know, having access to things, but people's sight changes. They're, you know, not as not as good with their fingers at some point. It it's a point of real concern for people. Yeah. Yeah.
Scott Benner It's nice that you figured out even one thing. Are you still working? Do you work in the wood shops, though?
Roger I go there every day. I just putts around. I don't do too much.
Scott Benner No. Do you have people working for you?
Roger No. No. I just
Scott Benner Kinda done now.
Roger Yeah. When I moved to Alberta, I just after my father passed away, I just shut my shop down and it's family issues.
Scott Benner Okay.
Roger I had to move.
Scott Benner Family issues. I got you. I I Yeah. I think everybody understands. Yeah.
Scott Benner Did you ever marry?
Roger No. No. I live with Shelly.
Scott Benner You have you have a lady friend? Is that what we're saying?
Roger Yes. Okay. Yep.
Scott Benner Is she she cited?
Roger She has about 10.
Scott Benner Okay.
Roger Yeah.
Scott Benner You ever just walk into each other and be like, oh my god. Sorry.
Roger Yep. All the time.
Scott Benner Sorry. I don't know. It's just You know
Roger what you know what really sucks is, is the stop sign. It's a steel post when you're going on the sidewalk and your cane misses it. You're head first straight into it.
Scott Benner Oh my god. So the cane doesn't find the sign pole post, but your head finds the sign. Yeah. I guess it really does stop you.
Roger Done that many times.
Speaker 3 It's a real head banger.
Scott Benner Do you have, do you have pets or any animals now, sir? Service dogs?
Speaker 3 Got a got a cat now.
Scott Benner That I guess that don't help you much.
Roger No. No. I I had, three seeing eye dogs, three guide dogs, but I can't do the walking anymore because of the stroke. Mhmm. It won't allow me.
Roger And besides, who wants to take a dog over to the bathroom in Alberta at minus 50?
Scott Benner Yeah. Probably not even the dog. Dog's like, if you don't mind, I'll just stare on the floor. Yeah. No kidding.
Life Without Sight: Insights and Adjustments
Scott Benner Oh my gosh. So how did you find the podcast? I mean, did you find it, or did somebody show it to you?
Roger No. Robin, my educator, She sent me the link to it. Yeah. Oh, wow.
Scott Benner Well, thank you, Robin. That's wonderful.
Roger Yeah. She's really good at that. She sends you all that kind of stuff. And
Scott Benner That's awesome. It really is. So you like Yeah. Do you feel like you've I guess what I wanna know is, like, you've had diabetes for a long time. Right?
Scott Benner So, like, did you feel like the podcast taught you something you didn't know, or did you just help solidify ideas that you would had that you maybe other people didn't put context to?
Roger Three ball thing.
Scott Benner That's the thing you didn't know about?
Roger Yeah. I might have known about it, but I never used to do it.
Scott Benner Okay.
Roger And now I do. And then
Scott Benner Tell people. Yep. Makes all the difference, doesn't it? Oh. Yep.
Scott Benner Simple thing. My whole job is to tell people to give themselves insulin a little before they eat.
Roger Yeah. I guess, you know, understanding how the insulin works and stuff. Hey.
Scott Benner It upgrades your care. Right? So this is the first time you stop to think about the action of the insulin juxtaposed against the impact of your food and and other variables? Yep. No kidding.
Roger Yeah. Oh. There's a lot of people listen to it. You know?
Scott Benner Oh, that's nice to say. I know. But it that is that's really lovely. It makes me happy to know it's helping you.
Roger Oh, yeah.
Scott Benner Does music take on a bigger part of your life? Like, how do you make up for I mean, the days are right. There's twenty four hours in every day, and you can't see now. So how do you refigure your life to fit your new situation?
Roger Well, I have my shop, but I'm thankful now that I have. It's a lot smaller, but I still have lots of equipment in there. I'm a tool junkie.
Speaker 3 Mhmm.
Roger I go spend a lot of time with it. I just finished making a Conestoga wagon, a scaled down version.
Scott Benner Okay.
Roger Yeah. Kinda like a lawn ornament, but it's still, like, two feet wide, you know, five feet long with a big cover on top and everything and all the spoke wheels.
Scott Benner Just get an idea in your head. How long did it take you to make the wagon?
Roger Probably about two months, two and a half months.
Scott Benner No kidding.
Roger I didn't work on it steady, but
Scott Benner That's a year shorter than it would've taken me to do it. And mine and mine would've sucked. Oh my gosh. That's really you know, I I I just keep thinking everyone listening must be like, oh, I gotta stop complaining. And by the way, if you're not thinking that, like, seriously, maybe you start thinking it.
Scott Benner Oh, now I just, by the way, just Googled Conestoga wagon. You made one of those, but it down to scale?
Roger Yeah. Yeah. It's, like, two feet wide, so it fits on a patio sidewalk. You know the stones?
Scott Benner Yeah. Yeah.
Roger And it's a with the tongue that's probably six feet long.
Scott Benner No kidding. That's incredible. Roger, that's incredible.
Roger The cover over top. It's all cedar.
Scott Benner Jesus. Will you sell it eventually or just make it for yourself?
Roger Hopefully, I'm gonna sell it.
Scott Benner Yeah. Proctor's like, I would like to sell it. I gotta I gotta feed this damn cat. I didn't know how much it was gonna eat. What made you wanna come on the podcast?
Roger I think, there was an email, I think, you sent out looking for people. It was back to get in before Christmas.
Scott Benner Yeah. Yeah.
Roger And I I went on your site, and I I guess I was messing around. The only time I could get was today. Kept trying to put dates in and dates in. Whether I was doing it right because sometimes the screen reader I use won't will read everything that's on the screen, depends how it's set up.
Scott Benner Yeah. I don't know. I use, a very sis like, a basic scheduling system that comes with, like, my website, to be perfectly honest with you. I don't, like, have anything fancy. But and I am pretty, packed usually.
Scott Benner So there's not a ton of wait. Hold on a second. My wife is here. This never happens. What's going on, Kelly?
Scott Benner I said we were gonna sell him. Hold on a second, Roger. I have to remember where the checkbook is. Here it is. Hold on.
Scott Benner And is there a check-in it? No checks. Checks. Don't see a check.
Roger It's peanut butter and water, right?
Scott Benner Well, don't look at me. I don't know. Listen. Tell him I can get him cash for later in the day, or I and I could I could run it to him if he wants, or I can mail a check or do something else. Okay.
Scott Benner I got a checkbook with no checks on it. I mean, do people write checks anymore?
Roger I never wrote a check-in ten years.
Scott Benner Yeah. I was gonna say, like, I I can we just, like, send it through Zelle or something? I mean, I'm happy the heater works and all, but, like, let's get with the times. Can I not just airdrop it to you or something? Yeah.
Speaker 3 Got apple pie? You're in you're you're in New York,
Roger are you?
Scott Benner New Jersey.
Roger New Jersey. Okay.
Scott Benner Yeah. Yeah. I'm about, a little less than an hour out of Manhattan by car.
Roger Oh, okay. Yeah. Okay.
Scott Benner Ontario is west, east, central? Where the hell is that at? Buffalo.
Roger Oh, near there. North of North Of Buffalo, that
Scott Benner end. Okay.
Roger Because you can drive around the QEW, which the Queen is a highway around the lake and then down into Buffalo to the border.
Scott Benner Oh, I see. Oh, is Toronto in oh, Ontario? Yep. Yeah. I don't know how it all works for you guys.
Scott Benner Across. Yeah. Oh, I see. Across. Very nice.
Scott Benner Look at oh, I'm looking now. Big country. Lot of lot of cold though.
Roger I'm in, yeah, I'm in Alberta just, Southeast Edmonton
Scott Benner Okay.
Roger An hour.
Scott Benner Okay. Yeah. I'm seeing it here. Nice. I, I interviewed a woman once who was a can can dancer, like, in the sticks, like, north in Canada.
Scott Benner Great stories from her.
Roger Oh, yeah.
Scott Benner Very, very good stories from her Yeah. About living in the wilderness in Canada.
Roger Yeah.
Scott Benner So okay. So, you know, came on to the podcast because I was looking for people. But did you have a feeling, like, I wanna tell this story to somebody? Or
Roger Yeah. Like, I want take care of yourselves. Man, don't do the same that I did in this you know, educate.
Scott Benner Do you have a worry about, like, longevity at this point, or do they have they told you, like, things look good now, or where do you feel like you're at? Because, I mean, I imagine your heart is of a of a concern. Yes?
Roger Yeah. They it's funny. They the heart doctor said after you know, it's been twenty one years. He said, oh, after ten years, it starts to you know, ten years, you're at the top of the hill and then you're going down. Right?
Scott Benner Okay.
Roger The the graph, they call it, deteriorates or whatever. Well, I'm in, like, twenty first year or so.
Scott Benner Feels like it's okay.
Roger Whatever happens, happens, man.
Scott Benner If your your care is so much better now than it was. Right? So, like, one's gotta guess that I mean, would you say 2005? Is that when you had heart issues the first time? So
Scott Benner Like, that's gotta be from the early care, and then you make a shift to the pump. Just getting on the pump in, would you say, 2010? Yes. Just getting on the pump had to have been a big deal for your, you know, just having basal insulin running and and being able to push buttons to bolus for food, imagining dropped your a one c probably at least to the sevens. Right?
Scott Benner And then Oh, yeah. I mean, that's a good place to be. And then you have the damage that eventually creates the next issue. But since then, like, I mean, an a one c in the fives or low sixes is I don't think you're adding to your problem. Now it's just about No.
Scott Benner What holds on or what helps itself out. Do you get checked for blockages periodically now? Do they do they give you scans?
Roger They don't they they gotta do an, an angiogram to check for blockages. So I had one done in 2012 because I had a silent heart attack, and they wouldn't release me until they did that. And everything was still fine. Just probably stress related because of family issues. Mhmm.
Roger But I go every year. I see a cardiologist, doctor Chan, here in Camaros.
Scott Benner Explain a silent heart attack to me. What happened?
Roger Well, my symptoms were woke up one morning. My blood sugar was, like, 16, then all of a sudden, I start right at the top of my stomach. It just hurt like hell, and I felt crappy. So I went and laid down, and I I woke up. Or I didn't even go to sleep.
Roger I got up. I said, Shelley, call on the ambulance. And they so they took me in, and and I guess the blood tests showed that I had a silent heart attack.
Scott Benner Okay. That's how it's so that tough pain, like, in your like, right in your sternum?
Roger Yes.
Scott Benner Yeah. Yeah.
Roger Yeah. It was just pain there, and then then I guess, you know, they did the blood test. Then that's how they can tell you you've had a an issue.
Scott Benner Right? Because the there's muscle listen. Let's all be clear. I don't know what I'm talking about, but I've seen a number of different television shows about this. So I think there's a breakdown of the muscle that shows up in the blood work.
Scott Benner Right. And that's how they can tell. But they did that, and now they're checking you for blockages. But you haven't had trouble since then? No.
Scott Benner No. Oh, that's good. I'll knock on some wood for you.
Roger I ex I exercise every day, and I'm, like, bike. Right? So no. I get a I get a an echocardiogram every two years.
Scott Benner Okay.
Roger And I see the cardiologist every year. So I
Scott Benner You eat any special way? How's your diet?
Roger Kind of simple. Yeah. Same same old.
Scott Benner That's just so I
Roger kinda like the one that sticks that sticks to what works. Right?
Scott Benner Yeah. Listen. I I basically have two poached eggs every day in my life, and I couldn't possibly care less. It's awesome.
Roger Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 3 Look at these far look at these farmers.
Roger They eat eggs every day, and they live to their freaking 90. Right?
Scott Benner So No. Listen. I had steak this week, a little chicken. I have a couple eggs every day.
Roger Oh, yeah.
Scott Benner It's just I just chug along. I don't I don't need too much variety either. What I was gonna ask you, what does Shelley know about diabetes? Like, how valuable is she with your care? If you had trouble with something, would she be able to help?
Scott Benner Like, how does that all work?
Roger Yeah. She doesn't know anything really about the looping and stuff like that. She knows, like, her she was married before to a fellow who, unfortunately, passed away. He was a diabetic. He had a kidney transplant back in the nineties.
Roger And so she does know
Scott Benner About about diabetes. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, if you said to her I mean, if your blood sugar got low, would she be able to help you?
Roger Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. She knows she knows.
Scott Benner She knows what to do in those situations?
Roger Yeah. Get my juice box.
Scott Benner What about if it do you have glucagon with you?
Roger I have the the nasal spray.
Scott Benner Yeah. Is that what you have? Yeah. You use that? Yeah.
Scott Benner Okay.
Roger Yeah. I carry my I carry my pocket all the time.
Scott Benner Yeah. Have you used it?
Roger Never. Never passed out. Never.
Scott Benner Never had well, listen. Your blood sugar was pretty high. I didn't see you passing out from a low blood sugar at any point. I mean, that would have been screwed up, Roger, if if Yeah. Know.
Scott Benner The world would have done that to you on top of the high blood sugar.
Speaker 3 But but but since I started up yeah.
Scott Benner Well, now, yeah, you're in a different world. You're playing with different tolerances now. Yeah. But she would know if you had a seizure, she'd know to squirt that in your nose.
Roger Yeah. I should show her whether she remembers or not.
Scott Benner I mean, I'd ask her once in a while. Yeah.
Speaker 3 I bet her I
Roger keep one beside my bed too. Right? So
Scott Benner Yeah. No kidding. Oh my gosh. I have a what are some things that people would be surprised by to learn from a blind person? Well, what surprised you, you know, when you lost your sight?
Scott Benner And and what do you think we'd hear and go, no kidding. Do you learn something from losing your sight? Do you like, has there been any value? I know it's a weird question, but, like, any anything that's come from it that's been transformational for you in some way or another? Or did you just learn you'd rather have your sight?
Scott Benner Because I think maybe that's possibility too.
Roger Well, I could tell you the downfalls of it.
Scott Benner Yeah. Go ahead. I'd like to hear what, like, what what it's really like.
Roger Well, I had a good job, and then all of a sudden, you got no no job, and you're on a disability pension that wouldn't pay to feed a hummingbird.
Speaker 3 Yeah.
Roger And then, yeah, you're always fighting with the government over all their they're dragging you in and they're always trying to screw you out of your pension money, right, in some way.
Scott Benner Like, I wonder if we could get maybe a a couple of loonies off the blind guy. Yeah. Great. Thanks a lot.
Speaker 3 Yeah. The guy on
Roger the corner is on pencils or something.
Scott Benner The struggles that we imagine are there. I mean, is there anything that's that I would think is amazingly difficult that just is not that troublesome for you?
Roger Walking around with the lights out.
Scott Benner You're like, I don't care what time of day it is. Yep. Does it mess with your circadian rhythm? Do you not have a, like, a rhythm to the sun rising and falling, or do you do you still have it from, like, feeling the sun on you?
Roger Used to in the beginning, in the last five years, six years, I go through stages where I'm up early, three, four in the morning, can't get back to sleep. Can't get back to sleep. And then all of a sudden, I it just switches. Right?
Scott Benner No kidding. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah. Let me ask you this question because I've I've asked this of every person I've ever spoken to who doesn't have their sight. How would you describe like, you're experiencing something.
Scott Benner Right? Like, how would you like, is there a visual input to your brain still? Like, what is it or no? Like, how do you explain what you are experiencing?
Roger My visual memory is very vivid, I guess, my mind.
Scott Benner Mhmm.
Roger Yeah. That's that's how I
Scott Benner You kinda imagine a world.
Roger Yeah. Yeah. You know?
Scott Benner But when I shut my eyes, I feel like I see black. Do you have that experience, or is it something different?
Roger No. It's black. Well, what I tell people, it's like going out in the middle of the night and looking up into the sky and seeing all the stars Mhmm. All the white little dots. You know, you see all the stars, like a little dot.
Roger Right?
Scott Benner Okay.
Roger So it's it's all there's lots of little white dots and blue, red, purple dots just floating around. But it's all
Scott Benner And for the lack of a better word, you see those right now?
Roger Yes.
Scott Benner Okay.
Roger It it in the background, it's all black, but there's all these little
Scott Benner Constellation constellations floating around.
Roger Yep. Yeah. Are
Scott Benner you aware of them? Or I mean, now that I'm asking you about them, you are. But, like, do you day to day, do you think about them being there? No. No?
Scott Benner It's just part of
Roger it. Yeah. Just part of it. It's good.
Scott Benner Oh, it sounds good.
Roger Just get used to it. Yeah.
Navigating the World
Scott Benner Jeez. When's the last time you drove your car when you were your twenties?
Roger Could have drove to the hospital
Scott Benner for my last surgery here. What what do you miss the most?
Roger Riding in my horses. Riding racing comp competing.
Scott Benner Competing on your horses. Is there a way to ride? I mean, did what what
Roger Oh, man. I I know what you're gonna ask. I went to a riding ranch, and I was led around by somebody else. Oh, I sat on the horse, and somebody else had a had a rope. They were leading the horse around.
Roger I never felt so humiliated in my life.
Scott Benner Was gonna say, I bet you that didn't feel good. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
Roger That's the first and last I thought ever happened.
Scott Benner Yeah. We're not gonna play the game anymore where you lead Roger around like he's six years old on a pony. We're not doing that again. Because you can't just yeah. Yeah.
Scott Benner Right. Now I as soon as I asked you, I thought, man, that is what he's gonna say. Yeah.
Roger Here's one for you that February I always wanted a Corvette
Scott Benner Mhmm.
Roger Even even before I went blind. 2001, I went and bought a 1990 red candy apple red Corvette, and I think it was beautiful. Right? And I had that thing for a couple of years. My buddy used to drive around it.
Roger This is when I was single. Right? And Steve will go, what's a blind guy who want a car for? You know?
Scott Benner It's the same reason another guy wants a car for. So, girl, look at it. Pay attention.
Speaker 3 Yeah. Why why why is he what do you what do you want artwork for? Why do you collect artwork? Because a friend of my dad was an art broker,
Roger and I would buy paintings off them, you know, and get them framed. Right? Right. But, you know, I have lots of that stuff here, though.
Scott Benner Well, what's the answer to that one? Why would you buy artwork?
Roger Oh, every host needs a picture.
Scott Benner Like, listen. Just because I can't see it doesn't mean somebody else can't.
Speaker 3 Yeah. Who wants to look at my ugly
Roger mug up there?
Scott Benner Well, here's a question for you. There are companies a number of companies working on driverless cars. If they got to the point where they said to you, this car doesn't even need a steering wheel. Would you be interested in riding in a car that just took you somewhere? Like, you got in, spoke where you wanted to go, and you ended up there and it parked itself.
Scott Benner Would you be interested in that? No. You wouldn't. Because you wouldn't trust it or because you found other ways to get around?
Roger Because the other jackets on the rotor.
Scott Benner I'm just like, listen. I trust my blind in a driverless car more than I trust other people. Yeah. Okay. I got it.
Scott Benner Yeah. That that's interesting because I've I've I'm hearing more and more people talk about, like, as I get older, I'm I'm hopeful about the the cars that drive themselves because I think it'll keep me mobile longer and stuff like that. And I was wondering if that was something you thought
Roger Well, okay. Here's a here's a quite a scenario. You don't know the place where you're really going. Okay? So you put your coordinates in.
Roger You get there. Then what do you do?
Scott Benner You don't know where you're at once you get there. Yep. But if you have like, I'm I'm assuming you have transportation set up for yourself. They they drop you at the door. You know you're at the door, stuff like that.
Roger I live in a small they call it a city. I call it a town. It's only 20,000.
Scott Benner Mhmm.
Roger The taxi service. So they're really good. They'll they'll take you right into your appointment. Or
Scott Benner Oh, okay. Somebody somebody actually go with you, get you in the door, stuff like that.
Roger Yeah.
Scott Benner Yeah. The car is gonna be like, you we're here. Go ahead and jump out. Get eject. Eject.
Scott Benner Get out. No. Oh, no. That's such an interesting like, see, that's a really interesting insight from you that, like, yeah. Sure.
Scott Benner The car gets there, but now it's there, and I don't know where I am. I could be anywhere in the world right now.
Roger Yeah. Like, where is you know?
Scott Benner Where is here?
Speaker 3 What do I do now? Yeah.
Roger That's that's great. I'm here.
Scott Benner Awesome. Hello? Anyone? Yeah. Know, you're calling for help.
Scott Benner Yeah. That that's no good.
Roger One of the hard things about being blind is when you go to a store is getting help. Some, like, grocery stores.
Scott Benner Mhmm.
Roger I had a bitch of a time when I was in Ontario when Shelley lived in Ontario. Like, she's from Alberta. She lived in Ontario for five years. And getting the someone to help you do some grocery shoppings shopping, take her take us around or take her around. I had to call head office on the manager.
Roger He was being a
Scott Benner He didn't wanna help you find the Cocoa Puffs? Like, what what's the point?
Roger Well, they they just wouldn't walk around with you with you and help you, you know, get stuff in the cart and check you. Right? You know, you're buying 2 or $300 with our groceries at a time.
Scott Benner Yeah. I just need one of the kids to, like, tell me this is Quaker Oats. Like, I I is that a problem? What do you do then? Do you have somebody that goes with you, or do you order online?
Scott Benner I
Roger don't do you have Safeway there?
Scott Benner I mean, there's yeah. Like, grocery stores all over the place. I think Safeway is one of them. Yeah.
Roger Yeah. That's the way of Safeway here. They're just awesome to us. They treat us like family there. Any of this we just go ahead with customer service, and they'll usually, the one girl, Janice, they helps us.
Roger She just goes around with us and does helps us do our shopping.
Scott Benner Feels obvious, doesn't it? Can you I mean, I'm not having trouble imagining a person absolutely blind going into a grocery store saying, hey. Listen. I'm here to spend a bunch of money, but I can't see anything. Could you come around with me?
Scott Benner They go, no. What did he say? Just say no?
Roger Yeah. No. We don't have the manpower.
Scott Benner The manpower? Stop it. Yeah.
Roger Walmart had a sign a few years ago. Said, if you need help shopping in any way, we will help you. Just come to customer service. So great. We go there, and they're they're so freaking worried, the staff, about their break.
Scott Benner Listen. I'll come with you, but I only got six minutes.
Roger Yeah. They're so worried about they're you're trying to find someone. Well, I'm going on break, and then this
Scott Benner Wow. Yeah. Did I was gonna say that must be hard for you to accept after everything you've been through.
Roger Oh, I yeah. I I I have I have lots of patience. Hey. But, you know, there's there's a point.
Scott Benner You're like, I think you found my line. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, just help me get my stuff and then go on break. Yeah.
Scott Benner How would that be? I think it'll work out
Roger for you. You still get paid. Walmart's Walmart's the worst. Like, Safeway is no problem. If they're gonna go on break, they'll just go later.
Roger Right?
Scott Benner Mhmm. But you don't do you not order things you like? Is it because you like to get out and move around, or do you, like, wanted to order stuff
Roger to It's an outing.
Scott Benner And give you something to do. Yeah.
Roger Yeah. It's an outing. My friend Norbert, unfortunately, he just passed away in December. He would take us. He was 81.
Roger He would take us. He would just sit there and watch the people because he knew knew everybody in town. Mhmm. He that was his good deed for the for the day. Right?
Roger But now his wife does it. So
Scott Benner Oh, that's really nice. It's it's it's it is really something when you meet decent people.
Roger I found the people here, like, as opposed to back in, like, Milton. Like, at the last place I lived was Milton. It was West Of Toronto. There's Toronto, Mississauga, then Milton along that 401 corridor. Ignorant.
Roger People are just ignorant there. Mhmm. Nude. And you you come to you come to town here, I'll tell you an instant. We were waiting across the street, Shelly and I, and this guy comes with a trailer or a truck, and he's making he and he knew we were waiting for him to to go.
Roger He pulls out and blocks the whole traffic, makes, like, a right hand turn, blocks everybody, gets out, and helps us cross the street.
Scott Benner Because otherwise, you weren't gonna make it?
Roger Well, no. He that
Speaker 3 was just he just wanted to help us because we were just waiting it back in, you know, Ontario. They'd run over you. Well,
Closing Thoughts and Contact Info
Scott Benner Roger, I have to tell you, we're up on time, and I'm enjoying this. And I my biggest problem is that my all the rest of my questions are about sex, and it seems inappropriate. So I'm not gonna ask them. Oh. And
Roger Off air.
Scott Benner But I'm yeah. So I I think we I think this is a good conversation. I wanna keep it right where it is. I'm gonna check myself and act like an adult and and say thank you, and ask you if there's anything that we haven't talked about that you wanted to. I don't wanna skip or miss anything that you had in mind.
Scott Benner Yeah. We cover it?
Roger I think we covered up pretty much everything. Yeah. It's like, just, you know, looping is possible for blind people.
Scott Benner I'm thrilled that you said that. I was really excited to hear that you had that much success with that app. I hope other people are are helped by that somehow. Even people whose sight is limited somehow. It must be great to know that.
Scott Benner So
Roger Hey. Can you go on my amazon.ca and and look up pod filler plus?
Scott Benner Let me see if I wanna go
Roger on there. Pod filler. You'll see it's about $60.
Scott Benner Pod filler plus pod filling aid compatible with Omnipod five, Omnipod dash assistive device.
Roger It's for the blind. The pod and there's a just a pod filler. It's for a dexterity problem. It it it's a little bit smaller. It doesn't have those posts.
Roger I don't know if it's on Amazon.
Scott Benner No. I see. I see. Yeah. I see.
Scott Benner I'm on CA. Yeah. Pod filler. Oh, look at that. Yeah.
Scott Benner Just you the this is a just just as described, there's a place to put the the pod, and then there's this gonna arm to slide the syringe into, which I guess lines the syringe up perfectly with the fill hole.
Roger The one the one I designed is just like that. The way the way I fill my syringes, and even I did with my old pump, I use a a a cut off pencil. I use a pen cartridge. Mhmm. I just poke the needle in the end of the cartridge, and I use a pencil to push the insulin in.
Roger So that that's probably where they got the idea of those other posts from. You know, I'll let you come to that conclusion or whatever you want on that one. But
Scott Benner I'm looking on at on the Amazon for America. I do not see it here. Yeah. I don't think it's here in America.
Roger You can still order from, CA because I I I order stuff from .com, you know, to get for Shelley. Right? I I we we use Amazon a lot.
Scott Benner Yeah. Yeah. Mean, That's right. I would imagine you do. Yeah.
Scott Benner I mean, that's that's awesome that I mean, hearing about that, I thought it was a big deal. Hearing how well, Loop works for you, I thought that was awesome. I think it's great to hear that you, you know, you've had these many issues, but you just haven't given up. Like, did you really do you kind of I mean, is that a thing that's in your personality, do you think you picked it up from watching your dad? Because you said your dad his theory on life seemed to be, like, you know, foot down, keep going.
Scott Benner Like, do you think you picked that up from him growing up?
Roger Oh, yeah. We're all all my brothers. I don't like that. They just yeah. We're all workers.
Scott Benner Yeah. Just don't give up. Keep keep moving.
Roger No. My dad came from nothing, had nothing. He was married, and my mom had two kids at 18, eleven months apart.
Scott Benner Did he really?
Roger Yeah. My dad would be when in, you know, young days, he'd be loading snow downtown Toronto with a front end loader with no cab. He'd have to unzip his snowsuit and give his injection and keep going. Right? So and he was on zinc.
Roger Have you ever heard of that? Zinc? Lenti?
Scott Benner Oh, lenti. Yes. That I've heard.
Roger Yeah. He was on zinc before lenti, and he had some issues. He wasn't he was losing too much weight, so they switched them to to lenti.
Scott Benner Zinc, is that like a was that an insulin at that point?
Roger Yeah. That was an insulin. I was saying that was one of the first ones.
Scott Benner Z I n z?
Roger Pretty sure they're called zinc. Yeah. Because I asked that guy one time. But I'm looking endo up
Scott Benner is an intermediate acting subcutaneous insulin, often referred to as lenti. Uses zinc to control the release and absorption of insulin providing twenty four hour coverage.
Roger Yeah. How about damn.
Scott Benner Cat and dog insulin came up, when I looked. That's interesting. I'll have look more at that. Yeah. Well Go ahead.
Roger One of the biggest things is your endo and their their their thinking. Like, if my my if my endo and my Robin and doctor Rogers weren't I call them call them forward thinking. Right? I never would would have looped. You get some of these older endos.
Roger They I've I've read that they say it's it's dangerous.
Scott Benner Loose things dangerous?
Speaker 3 Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. They're, you know, afraid of what you don't know.
Scott Benner Yeah. No. I mean, in the end, everybody's gonna have their own experiences. You again, like, mother, you're mother of necessity right here. Right?
Scott Benner So you're you you just absolutely needed to find a way to do something so you don't put up the same walls and the same fear about things. You're like, I've gotta get this done. I gotta sit down and read all this documentation about this thing. I've gotta figure out how to get the insulin into this pump. I've gotta figure out how to do this.
Scott Benner Like, you just have no other choice. And once you don't have another choice, you know, then the the speed bumps don't seem as important, I would imagine.
Roger No. Yeah. No. You just keep trucking.
Scott Benner Man, people should people should, take something from that. Like, don't be so scared all the time. You know? No. Yeah.
Scott Benner Be bold. Be bold. That's one way to put it. Or act like you're in the middle of a parking lot, you don't know where the hell on earth you are, and you gotta figure something out.
Roger Oh, man. That's funny you mentioned that. When I moved to Alberta, that's what I tell everybody. I thought I was dropped in the middle of a field that night. I don't know where the hell I am because my my, sense of direction is reversed as opposed to being in Ontario.
Roger It's weird. Shelly's when she goes to Ontario, she's a total opposite. Right? Like
Scott Benner I was talking, around the house the other day about moving to another state, and somebody said, well, you wouldn't, you know, you wouldn't know anything. You hadn't been there before, and blah blah blah. I said, I what do you mean? Like, I don't leave this house. I don't know where I'm at right now.
Roger I I
Scott Benner said, dude, where I am is meaningless, like, like, quite honestly. Right?
Roger Like Yeah.
Scott Benner There's no great restaurants around here. I mean, I know a few people, but, you know, everybody's about the same no matter where I seem to go. And I was like I was like, I don't think it matters. I was like, I get up in the morning and I sometimes I don't even leave here. Like, I could not leave another house in another state and it would be warmer, and that would be better.
Scott Benner That's all I said. I was like, I I want it to be warm is what I told them.
Roger Yeah. Really?
Speaker 3 Hey. Springsteen and Bon Bon Jovi live there.
Scott Benner Well, I mean, not right where I'm at. Although I know. Although, I will tell you one time, Arden was out with her friends, and they were just, like, window shopping somewhere. And she came home and she's like, we saw we saw, Bon Jovi's son today. I was like, oh, yeah?
Scott Benner And she goes, yeah. I said, did you introduce yourself? She goes, I didn't. I was like, well, maybe you should have. And then she, you know, she kinda laughed and everything and now he's married to the girl from stranger things.
Roger Well.
Scott Benner So sometimes she pops up and I went, could have been you. Just had to say hello. Yep. But I've but even that's a great point. Like, I've never been to the Stone Pony.
Scott Benner I'm probably an hour from it. I've I've never been there. I'm never going. When we moved here, when we had kids, I remember like, we talked about, like, oh, this is wonderful. We're about about an hour from Manhattan.
Scott Benner We're about an hour from Philadelphia. There'll be museums and things, cultural stuff we can take the kids to. And, you know, the the second time you take your kid to an art museum and you you look over at them and they're bored out of their mind, you think, oh, I guess they don't care about this.
Roger No. I know. The younger generation nowadays, it's.
Scott Benner And then Roger, living near the museum's not as important anymore because apparently we're not coming back. So Yeah. Yeah. I figured I could live anywhere and I I'd be okay with it. So
Roger Yeah. Right on.
Scott Benner Anyway. But you're you're really awesome, dude. It was great to get to know you, and I appreciate you taking the time to do this. It really was really, really a great time talking to you.
Roger Yeah. How do you how do you get in touch with him? I need to ask a question or a phone.
Scott Benner If you wanna ask me a question, hold on. We'll stop the recording. I'll tell you all about it.
Roger Yeah. Alright.
Scott Benner Thank you.
Roger I I was would listen one of Kenny Fox. Mhmm. You're you're a good friend. I listen to podcast you did on Loop and Learn about five years ago, I think it was, and you were he was on there.
Scott Benner And I did a whole series. We did six at least six episodes together about Loop.
Roger Yeah. Yeah. Where can you send them to me and stuff? Because I you know, the more information, the better I have. Yeah.
Scott Benner Well, listen. Since you asked about it, I'm still recording. I'll tell people what episode numbers they are, but then I'll email them to you. So hold on one second. I'm on my website here.
Scott Benner Kenny's episodes are called Fox in the Loop House.
Roger That's right.
Scott Benner Yeah. That's what they're called. So well, yeah. We just did a part. So part six is episode fourteen eighty nine, and part four is fourteen thirty three.
Roger I knew I knew you guys did some, episodes there. Was just wondering. I you know, I don't like I'll send them Robin would do it.
Scott Benner No. I'll send them to you. I'll put what I'll do is I'll put an email together. Here. Let me stop the recording.
Scott Benner People don't care about this. Alright, everybody. See you later.
Episode Wrap-Up & Sponsor Details
Scott Benner Are you tired of getting a rash from your CGM adhesive? Give the Eversense three sixty five a try.
Scott Benner Eversensecgm.com/juicebox. Beautiful silicone that they use. It changes every day, keeps it fresh. Not only that, you only have to change the sensor once a year. So, I mean, that's better.
Scott Benner Head now to tandemdiabetes.com/juicebox and check out today's sponsor, Tandem Diabetes Care. I think you're gonna find exactly what you're looking for at that link, including a way to sign up and get started with the Tandem Mobi system.
Scott Benner A huge thanks to US Med for sponsoring this episode of the juice box podcast. Don't forget, usmed.com/juicebox. This is where we get our diabetes supplies from.
Scott Benner You can as well. Use the link or call (888) 721-1514. Use the link or call the number, get your free benefits check so that you can start getting your diabetes supplies the way we do from US Med.
Scott Benner Thank you so much for listening. I'll be back very soon with another episode of the Juice Box podcast.
Scott Benner If you're not already subscribed or following the podcast in your favorite audio app, like Spotify or Apple Podcasts, please do that now. Seriously, just to hit follow or subscribe will really help the show. If you go a little further in Apple Podcasts and set it up so that it downloads all new episodes, I'll be your best friend. And if you leave a five star review, oh, I'll probably send you a Christmas card. Would you like a Christmas card?
Scott Benner If you're looking for community around type one diabetes, check out the Juice Box podcast private Facebook group. Juice Box podcast, type one diabetes. But everybody is welcome. Type one, type two, gestational, loved ones, it doesn't matter to me. If you're impacted by diabetes and you're looking for support, comfort, or community, check out Juice Box podcast, type one diabetes on Facebook.
Scott Benner How would you like to share a type one diabetes getaway like no other? Join me on Juice Cruise twenty twenty six. You may be asking, what is Juice Cruise? It's a week long cruise designed specifically for people and families living with type one diabetes. It's not just a vacation.
Scott Benner It's a chance to relax, connect, and feel understood in a way that is hard to find elsewhere. We're gonna sail out of Miami, and the cruise includes stops in CocoCay, San Juan, Saint Kitts, and Nevis aboard the stunning Celebrity Beyond. This ship is chosen for its comfort, accessibility, and exceptional amenities. You're gonna enjoy a welcoming environment surrounded by others who get life with type one diabetes. I'm gonna host diabetes focused conversations and meetups on the days at sea.
Scott Benner There's thoughtfully designed spaces, incredible dining, and modern amenities all throughout the celebrity beyond. Your kids can be supervised, there's teen programs so everyone gets time to recharge. Not just the the kids going on vacation, but maybe you get the kickback a little bit too. There's gonna be zero judgment, real connections, and a whole lot of sun and fun on Juice Cruise 2026. Please come with me.
Scott Benner You're going to have a terrific time. You can learn more or set up your deposit at juiceboxpodcast.com/juicecruise. Get ahold of Suzanne at cruise planners. She will take care of everything. Link's in the show notes.
Scott Benner Link's at juiceboxpodcast.com. Have a podcast? Want it to sound fantastic? Wrongwayrecording.com.