Scott Benner 1/10/24 Scott Benner 1/10/24

#1103 Cold Wind: Healthcare Whistleblower, H.R. and Insurance Professional

"Anonymous female" is a former Human Resources professional and current Insurance company employee. Her voice and name have been changed to protect her identity.

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DISCLAIMER: This text is the output of AI based transcribing from an audio recording. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors and should not be treated as an authoritative record. Nothing that you read here constitutes advice medical or otherwise. Always consult with a healthcare professional before making changes to a healthcare plan.

Scott Benner 0:00
Hello friends, welcome to episode 1103 of the Juicebox Podcast.

I'm back today with my second installment of the cold wind series. On today's show, we'll be calling our guests, Laura. She is on the show today because she has worked in human resources and in private insurance 23 plus years in human resources, and she has seen some. Now Laura works in insurance where she's also seen some if this one doesn't kill you right down to your you know what's nothing's going to. Please don't forget that nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise, always consult a physician before making any changes to your health care plan are becoming bold with insulin. When you place your first order for ag one with my link, you'll get five free travel packs and a free year supply of vitamin D. Drink ag one.com/juice box. Don't forget to save 40% off of your entire order at cozy earth.com All you have to do is use the offer code juice box at checkout that's juice box at checkout to save 40% at cozy earth.com.

This episode of The Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by us med U S med.com/juice box or call 888721151 for us med is where my daughter gets her diabetes supplies from and you could to use the link or number to get your free benefit check and get started today with us met this episode of The Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by the contour next gen blood glucose meter. Learn more and get started today at contour next one.com/juice box.

"Laura" 2:11
My name is Laura. I have two type one children for the past like 23 for 23 years, I worked on the benefit side of it from HR standpoint, like for your company. And then the last like year and a half or so I made the change to work at the actual insurance company.

Scott Benner 2:33
You work for those people. Yeah. You have two sons. Yep. They both have type one. So this is all within the last four years for you. Yes. Okay. Do you have type one?

"Laura" 2:45
I do not have any other autoimmune issues? Yes, I do. And all four of my children also have some sort of autoimmune. So

Scott Benner 2:55
hypothyroidism for you know, mine

"Laura" 2:57
is more of a Lupus issue. My daughter has Hashimotos and my son has grave. The older one of the younger one. His twin brother has graves. Four kids, my 21 year old has Hashimotos you have lupus diagnose diagnose lupus. No, not yet. We're still in that process. I have to go again Tuesday. On fun, husband anything? Nope. Down the line and your families know if we're being completely honest. I think my dad had undiagnosed type one and not contributed to his death 56 Which is why I had all my older three children tested and they all came back negative. So the one twin went into DKA. I never suspected type one because I was told he didn't have any antibodies. Everything was clear. So it came on here last a long time. Yeah, to like, wrap my head around that.

Scott Benner 3:59
And this isn't why we're here. But your father was sick and died pretty quickly.

"Laura" 4:04
I know he was from what we knew healthy. Great. I hadn't been out of you know, I hadn't lived at home in many years, but he just fell over at Easter dinner actually. In 2012 he was 56 he didn't get back up three days later. Nope. I'm so sorry. I don't know how we weren't gonna say no. Okay, I apologize. No, we've made that joke a million times worse. Yeah.

Scott Benner 4:35
Don't touch him. He'll be up in like 72 hours. Oh my gosh. So your dad had a real fast onset of what you think was type one diabetes DKA died? Yep. He's he

"Laura" 4:45
lived in a small farm town and they did CPR for like an hour and couldn't revive them. And I was like, Okay, so once I got the autopsy and I started putting it all together and thinking back of like, the symptoms that I noticed now Now that I know what they are, I was like, okay, yep. They did an autopsy because they thought it was Pontius Pilate. Yeah. They thought he had a heart attack.

Scott Benner 5:08
I say, Okay, you're not gonna keep going with this joke about the religious. So anyway, don't want to cry. Oh, I'm sorry, how long ago was this?

"Laura" 5:17
2012 So it's been an 11 and a half years. It still hurts. Some days, just because, uh, you know, I, I feel like not that I could have prevented it. But if I had been able to educate him to be like, listen, dad, like, Oh, I understand, you know, but also, he was my biggest champion and trying to figure out what's going on with me. And so I have a lot of guilt of, I didn't help him, but he helped me. You

Scott Benner 5:46
know? No, yeah, I helped my mom a lot with her cancer. And I think I think I made decisions that directly elongated her life. And I still feel bad about whatever it is, I didn't think to do. Yeah. Which is, you know, not really fair. But I understand how you feel. And I'll stop joking about I apologize. Mike, I need to laugh. Yeah, well, I think in a minute, you're gonna get to let your aggression out in other ways. So. So you're on the show today, anonymously. Because obviously, you have some backroom knowledge about human resources, insurance. And now about type one diabetes? Yes. So let's start with your career as an HR person. What is it? You saw that now in hindsight, you think, Oh, that wasn't? Right, we shouldn't have done that.

"Laura" 6:35
Um, it's always about the cost, right? Like, it's always, what can I do to save the most money so I can make the most money. And 110% of the time, it's, we're not paying for technology. In my previous experience, obviously, you know, 20 years ago, technology wasn't then what it is today. But I had no understanding of type one, what type one was, or why the technology was important. And I look back and I'm like, Oh, my God, even today, like I'm like, Oh, my God, why are insurance companies forcing people to live barbarically? Like, we have technology use it. But it's always about, I didn't fight hard enough, you know, to help this person. Why can't we add this to the formulary? Why? You know, just, it's always why like, Yeah,

Scott Benner 7:27
let's, let's break that down for people so that they can understand because I think that the phrase that your company feeds, you is Oh, the insurance doesn't cover that. But they're the ones who chose what the insurance covers. Right? Yeah. So when the insurance cut when your employer is saying, insurance doesn't cover that, what they mean to say is, for reasons of cost cutting, we decided not to pay for you to be covered by that. Right? Yes. Okay, especially

"Laura" 7:53
on a self funded plan, when they're fully insured, then the insurance company does have a little more control over that. But I am from the Midwest, it's a hotbed of self funding. I have never worked for a company that wasn't self funded. And they 100% control what's covered and what's not. And what that cost is,

Scott Benner 8:15
can we define those two things? So what is tell people that self funded means? So

"Laura" 8:20
self funded means the company itself is paying medical bills, fully insured means that the insurance company is paying the medical bill?

Scott Benner 8:29
Why would a company choose one over the other cost? It's

"Laura" 8:33
a gamble, obviously. But if you're self funded, and you have a relatively healthy population, then you're going to charge you know, $1,000 a month and an insurance premium, but you're only going to spend $400 a month. So you have, for example, so you have the ability to make a whole lot of money, right? And just sock that money away. When you're fully insured, you're paying $1,000 a month and insurance, but someone else controls okay, what portion of the bill gets paid.

Scott Benner 9:07
So fully insured is the company is paying a premium. And then that premium is set up based on the tier of insurance that they've purchased. And then if you get sick, the insurance company is the one taking the risk there. They're collecting money every you know, however, how, however frequently from your employer, and they're risking if you guys don't get sick, then we get to keep this. But that costs more because it shifts the it shifts the risk onto the insurance company so they charge more for it. Right self funded is yes, a company is a silly like you might have a card out and it might just say Aetna on it like great. And you think oh at this my insurance company. But really Aetna is just handling the billing and everything. And they literally send a bill to the company probably quarterly and say look this quarter are this is what it costs to give healthcare to your employees? write us a check for? Great.

"Laura" 10:05
Yep. Yeah, you're simply borrowing that network. So network United Healthcare network does not work, etc.

Scott Benner 10:12
So when you're in human resources, do you ever see someone come in, say they interview four people for a job? And they get it down to two people and they're equally qualified, and one of them's 50 pounds overweight? They go through this, then one, because maybe that'll be better for us.

"Laura" 10:29
The reality is, yeah, there is a little bit of that that happens. I

Scott Benner 10:34
mean, I'm just thinking of it. From my own perspective, I own the company, I'd be like, let's get the one who wasn't winded walking up the stairs? Like, I just, I think I would do that. So yeah,

"Laura" 10:42
I have one employee that I worked with, who had a blood disorder and needed lots of blood transfusions, lots of different things. And I was like, This guy is amazing. And so I took him with me to my next company. And they were like, what, why? Why do you know how much money we're losing on him? And I'm like, because he's making a lot of money to like, you can't just look at it from one perspective, but also, we're not discriminating. So don't talk to me about that.

Scott Benner 11:12
But if, if we can all do it with a wink and a nod, then why not? And so when, when people say the conversation I usually see online is like, well, when you go to a job interview, you don't have to disclose your health. And some people are like, Well, I have type one diabetes, I want people to know, and I'm not hiding it. I'm like out about it. But the truth is, is that if you got into that situation, they might go, oh, that lady looks like she's wearing an expensive gadget on her arm. Like, let's not go with her. Yep. Okay. So

"Laura" 11:43
my children will always be covered up, I don't care if it's 100 degrees, and you're interviewing for a job outside, you're going to wear long sleeves, and I just or you're gonna not wear your device ID or whatever. Just because I know that the discrimination from an HR side is legit

Scott Benner 12:00
gonna happen. And you can't prove it, right? No, how would you because nobody says it out loud. Nobody writes it down. So that's that?

"Laura" 12:09
No, that's why you have closed door meetings and you get yelled at.

Scott Benner 12:13
And you're all covered by NDAs. When you go in that meeting, you can't you go back out. And so therefore you kind of have to do this, which is be anonymous about it. Yep. Absolutely. Yeah. Well, I'm glad we're doing this. Actually, I have to be honest, I asked for health care professionals. And you reached out and said, Hey, I was in HR and I work in insurance now. And I was like, Oh, why didn't I ask for that? That's great. I was like, Thank thank God, Laura is thinking for me, you're producing the show. Now, some other examples. So your company might set up, you alluded to this earlier, but like to be clear. They they'll look at tiers and say, Okay, well in this tier, if you had type one diabetes, you'd get a CGM. But in this tier, you don't. And we pay less for this tier. So we're going to take this one, right,

"Laura" 12:58
or they're just going to exclude it completely. And so you're not, we don't cover CGM at all.

Scott Benner 13:03
So when you're making the contract, you just go through and you go, we like this tear, but like, scratch out these things.

"Laura" 13:10
So the company kind of tailors, the insurance coverage, ala carte, but honestly, it's about money, not about choice. Oh, absolutely. So like compound prescriptions. For example, one company that I managed benefits for just wiped those out completely, like, I don't care what it is, it's not being covered just because compound drugs are expensive. Up until last year, insulin prices weren't regulated, they would be like, Oh, we're gonna charge $200 a month for insulin, or we're gonna do you know, XY and Z things. Or we're going to, I don't know what the the post Obamacare term is, but before it was, we're gonna laser this out like this person has, you know, this is lasered out, so to speak. Now, with ACA laws, it's the verbiage is a little different, but the practices are still happening.

Scott Benner 14:00
Interesting. Yeah. So the world is the way I expect it. That's what you're telling me?

"Laura" 14:08
Unfortunately,

Scott Benner 14:11
I thought it was by the way, I'm actually generally speaking, I'm usually surprised when people act Pollyanna about things. And they go, Oh, that couldn't happen. There's laws against that. And I'm like, What? What are you talking about? Of course, that's happening. You know, like, it's not the way I see it is, generally speaking, you either work for somebody who has so much money that it doesn't matter, which some people do, like, you know, like you work for such a large corporation, that they can be fully funded. And it's still not be super expensive because the insurance companies still making a boatload off of them because they've got 20 3040 50,000 employees so they can get the price down because they've got overhead the insurance they've got they've got enough people and the insurance companies still making The money they want to make on the policy. But smaller companies are going to go self pay, because they're going to bet on their population not getting sick. diabetes comes with a lot of things to remember. So it's nice when someone takes something off your plate. US med has done that for us. When it's time for art and supplies to be refreshed, we get an email rolls up in your inbox says hi Arden. This is your friendly reorder email from us med. You open up the email, it's a big button that says click here to reorder. And you're done. Finally, somebody taking away a responsibility instead of adding one. US med has done that for us. An email arrives, we click on a link and the next thing you know your products are at the front door. That simple. Us med.com/juice box or call 888-721-1514 I never have to wonder if Arden has enough supplies. I click on one link. I open up a box. I put the stuff in the drawer. And we're done. US med carries everything from insulin pumps, and diabetes testing supplies to the latest CGM like the libre three, and the ducks comm G seven, they accept Medicare nationwide, over 800 private insurers. And all you have to do to get started is called 888-721-1514. Or go to my link us med.com/juicebox. Using that number or my link helps to support the production of the Juicebox Podcast.

"Laura" 16:36
Yep. So statistic in full transparency, I worked for five different companies, all of them self funded. And all of them had around 500 employees. The biggest difference that I noticed was the CEO. If the CEO is not, obviously he's always worried about the bottom line. Like that's his job. But also if he has a little bit of integrity, he's going to you're going to have these conversations like there were times it happened all the time, he would walk in my office shut the door, and we would talk about something, you know, at 7am before anyone else got there. In another instance, it was I don't care how you do it. But you do this, and I want them out. I don't I'm not paying for this. Like, we just got a $250,000 bill from UMR. Why? Like no, I'm not paying, figure it out and get rid of the problem. A person

Scott Benner 17:29
has looked you in the face and said, Get rid of that person. They're killing us on health care costs.

"Laura" 17:35
Oh, absolutely. happened more than once. Gotcha.

Scott Benner 17:39
Oh, all right. Well, this is uplifting. That's what I expected. By the way. You know, like when you said you'd come on? I thought this isn't to tell me how great everything is. That's Do you think people right now mostly I miss I'm imagining to two distinct different reactions for listeners, either someone's like I know it mother, or more. They're thinking, Oh, my God, I don't understand. But I'm on the I knew it side for sure. Did you know before you got into it?

"Laura" 18:09
No. I mean, I was 19. I was still in college. Like I had no idea that it was this discriminatory. I had no idea that I also had no idea that there were so many health issues out there. Like I was a young, healthy, 19 year old, I had no idea that you know, so and so John over there has whatever going on. And even though he's like an employee, he's costing the company a lot of money from health insurance wise. So then you're like scratching your head, you're like, what this is happening. And you want me to fire him kind of illegally, like, so those are the unemployment claims, you just don't fight. If I'm being honest.

Scott Benner 18:48
So you owe so it's a calculated maneuver, then we're gonna ask this person, we don't have a real reason. But we got to get rid of him before another $250,000 bill comes up, they'll sue us in unemployment, for unemployment reasons, we'll pay but it won't be nearly as much as we'll lose in the health care cost, right? Yep. Absolutely. Does the company get dinged for that somehow? Is there like a thing that keeps track of it or anything like that? Yeah.

"Laura" 19:15
So there is an unemployment amount that you have to pay every month. And obviously, the more claims you have, the more you have to pay in not just because you're paying that unemployment, but also because you're being quote unquote, penalized by the government for having that many claims is that thing people can check on when they're looking for work?

Scott Benner 19:35
That can I see. I mean, the companies who seem like maybe they're getting rid of people. Yeah,

"Laura" 19:40
I'm not sure about that. But there is a way to check and see if a company's getting ready to do a mass layoff like major companies are getting ready to do a layoff. I'm looking up as we speak the exact parameters. But I have one of my my best friends works for a major company and they're doing Doing layoffs and I was like, Hey, why don't you check and make sure like, she was like, I don't know if it's my department. And I'm like, well, they don't specify departments or names, but they do have to give the government 30 days notice why they're doing it. They can be really discreet about that. Okay.

Scott Benner 20:18
I know from when, when my wife's companies say they're going to do a reorganization, that's usually means everybody. And it's funny, I always think of it is every few years. They hire, they hire they hire, and eventually the bad employees shake out, you figure out which ones aren't as valuable as you hoped they would be or or didn't end up being necessary. And they move them along which business wise makes sense to me. It never occurred to me that we'd sprinkle in a couple of people with a heart condition or something like that. And to that list, too.

"Laura" 20:50
Yeah. And they're always going to say it's for budget reasons. And of course, it's for budget reasons. But the reality is, it's also because you have a health condition, and you're costing too much money. That's the budget issue.

Scott Benner 21:03
The budget is you coughed too much, I gotcha. Right? Would it be out of line to say, so I know a person who lost their job. This person was, by all accounts, fantastic, their job, a great employee, they were a little higher on the pay scale than anyone else. And then one day, out of nowhere, one of these little like, rules in the handbook on like, the last page, like literally, you can't chew gum while you're at work. That kind of thing. Someone walked up to this person said, is that gum in your mouth? And they went, Yeah, I'm sorry, I forgot. And went to throw it away. And they said, No, nevermind, come to the office. And they fired him.

"Laura" 21:46
Those are the stupid reasons that HR has to come up with to fire a good employee. Gotcha. Or whatever other reason, I can't wait to tell that person that. Yeah, but definitely, when you're looking at jobs, like you want to check the war notices for your state, W AR n that tells that gives a decent indication of layoff,

Scott Benner 22:07
if they're coming or how many you've seen in the past? Both,

"Laura" 22:10
it'll tell you, it's me, I hold on, I look up what it stands for Worker Adjustment and retaining Notification Act.

Scott Benner 22:20
So if you see a company that is consistently laying people off, they might be one of those companies who bring you in make a big, like, oh, it's gonna be great here, you're gonna love it. And then when they're done with you, or the work dies down, or whatever else, they just sweep everybody out with the trash on Friday afternoon when nobody's looking.

"Laura" 22:36
Great. Gotcha. Huh. Not always. I mean, sometimes they're for legitimate reasons, you know? Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, many times, it's just because

Scott Benner 22:47
so if I told you that that story I just told you about that person happened right after a new company took over the business that would even be less shocking to you, right? Honestly, not shocking at all. Right? They come in, they evaluate where do we it's always money. Where do we cut money?

"Laura" 23:04
Yeah, always. You're never a person. It's always about a number.

Scott Benner 23:08
You've never been in a room where they were like, Hey, how can we make everybody happier today?

"Laura" 23:13
It's happened a couple of times. And I convinced the CEO to serve everyone breakfast, just you know, to be like, Hey, I'm normal. And not a total asshole. But normally, yeah, I mean, it's all about money. Like it's always, where do we cut? How do we put the most overhead? And so I've been through a couple of sales, right? And you always make a spreadsheet of salaries versus expenses. And whoever is in the top obviously goes.

Scott Benner 23:46
That's why they say don't get too high. Like, don't make too much. I used to hear people say that, like, I don't want to make I don't want to I don't want another promotion, or they're going to take my head off in four years if I do, right. Yeah. Gotcha. Can I ask, since your kids diagnosis is did you have any, like quiet moments where you look back and thought, Oh, I wonder how many people's jobs I helped get rid of that had this stuff going on?

"Laura" 24:13
Absolutely. Because there are a few I know of. So I wonder how many I didn't know love. And I it kills me.

Scott Benner 24:21
But in the moment. I mean, imagine especially when you're younger in the moment, you're like doing your job which by the way, I also I'm not coming down on you like some this is how business works. I don't I mean, some people might have been surprised by it. I wasn't. And so people are going to do these jobs. Not everybody's job is pleasant, that I'm not coming down on you at all. I'm wondering about like, personally, like you have this moment where you think oh god, I was in a meeting and i i I came up with a reason to get rid of that person. That contour next gen blood glucose meter is the meter that we use here. Arden has one with her at all times. I have one downstairs in the kitchen. Just In case I want to check my blood sugar, and Arden has been at school, they're everywhere that she is contour next one.com/juicebox test strips. And the meters themselves may be less expensive for you in cash out of your pocket than you're paying currently through your insurance for another meter, you can find out about that and much more at my link contour next one.com/juice box contour makes a number of fantastic and accurate meters. And their second chance test strips are absolutely my favorite part. What does that mean? If you go to get some blood, and maybe you touch it, and I don't know, stumble with your hand and like slip off and go back, it doesn't impact the quality or accuracy of the test. So you can hit the blood not good enough, come back, get the rest without impacting the accuracy of the test. That's right, you can touch the blood, come back and get the rest. And you're gonna get an absolutely accurate test. I think that's important because we all stumble and fumble at times, that's not a good reason to have to waste a test trip. And with a contour next gen. You won't have to contour next.com forward slash juicebox you're gonna get a great reading without having to be perfect. Yep, yeah. Is that hard happened?

"Laura" 26:20
It's very hard. Especially when I think about, like, you know, because there are times like, I'll find out after the fact like, oh, so and so had this health condition or so and so was pregnant and you didn't know yet or whatever. And you're like, I mean, I can't tell you Scott, how many times I've put my hands on my head. And I've just been like, Oh my fucking god, what did I just do? Now,

Scott Benner 26:43
to give you the flip side of this, how many employees have you dealt with who are habitually taking advantage of like short or long term? Like coverage? Like somebody's like, oh, I, my doctor says I need to take a month off. I have a cough. Like there are people who like do that, right? Like they work a little, quote, get sick, take off three months on like long term disability, then come back, want their job back work six more months, get like that this happens? No,

"Laura" 27:13
it absolutely happens. And that's why FMLA laws are what they are. That's why it's 100 or one year, and, you know, the all the hours like, because to stop that. And it sucks. You know, when you're in a position where now I'm on the flip side of it, and I'm like, I needed FMLA, like two years ago, but I didn't qualify for it until one year ago. You know, yeah. And then, but then you see that all the time of like people that are requesting STP or Ltd short term disability or long term disability and you're like,

Scott Benner 27:48
No, over and over. So they they limited to a year for to stop people from taking advantage of it. But the flip side of that is there are actually some people who need it for more than a year and they just get aged out of it. unscrew them. And that's part of doing business. This is what this is what the speed trap catches, it catches people who need it and people who don't need it as well. Yep, absolutely. That's upsetting. Is that hard to watch somebody because that's stealing, in my opinion, you know, Oh, yeah. So did they ever prosecute people? Do they ever go after them? Or is it just too difficult?

"Laura" 28:20
I don't know that. I've seen any one prosecuted for it. But I have definitely seen short term disability and long term disability claims denied because they were frivolous. Yeah, they just tell him Look, come

Scott Benner 28:35
back to work or you're done. That's it, right? Yeah. Gotcha. Am I missing anything so far? Like, is there something you should be telling me that I'm not going to ask about?

"Laura" 28:45
I just want to reiterate that, especially if you work for a self funded company, your HR has total control over the formulary and what's covered.

Scott Benner 28:55
Have you ever heard my story about artists dental work? No, I don't think so. When Arden was really little, obviously, we didn't know what we were doing. She was drinking a lot of juice at night, like, you know, saving her from lows over and over again. And a lot of her baby teeth got cavities. And it was too soon. She couldn't just take them out. Because she needed them and she wasn't going to get teeth for a little while. They had to be fixed. So we went to a dentist who looked at her and said Look, I am not comfortable putting her under has her blood sugar get low. We need to do it in a hospital. I am not comfortable doing the office. I want to do it in a hospital where I can have somebody monitor her blood sugar or have her on a sale, a drip of glucose if she needs it, that kind of stuff. And I was like okay, so then our insurance denied it. Okay, yeah. And they kept denying it and kept an eye even though it's now a medical procedure because it was happening in hospital wasn't dental anymore. They denied the data and it just went on forever. And it was like 15 grand, I think and we were young still and I don't want to say that $15,000 Not a lot of money to me. It is but on They're like penalty of death, I can probably pull it together for one of my kids if I needed to. But back then I could not have, right. And so I called my wife's company. I literally called Human Resources. My wife's like, they're not going to help. And I was like, I got nothing else to do. So I called the company, I spoke to somebody. And they said, let me see what I can do. And they got back to us a couple days later. And they said, Yeah, it's fine. Go ahead and book it, we'll pay for it. But it was a self funded company and a big company. So all I had to do was actually get to the person in charge. And they were like, what's 15 grand to help this kid will do that. And that was it. It was just over.

"Laura" 30:39
Yeah, and that's the thing I think a lot of people don't realize is, I can't tell you how many spouses I've talked to, I've spoken to over the years, let alone the employee themselves. And you know, it's true, the squeaky wheel is going to get the grease, however, don't call in and be a jerk about it, like, you know, have like a decent conversation because we're people too, we're just trying to do what we're supposed to do

Scott Benner 31:03
yelled at a lot.

"Laura" 31:06
But like, at the end of the day, you know, I'm, I, we've I've been able to make dozens of changes to plans mid year, like you have to give appropriate notice legally, obviously, but like, you know, each quarter, you can change your plan from a company's perspective. So I've been able to pull that off many times helps people.

Scott Benner 31:28
Yeah, I just called and I honestly, I didn't understand self pay and full pay back then. This is actually how I learned about it. But I just called and said, Is there anything you can do to help us like, I thought I was asking them to call the insurance company. And like, you don't mean like, I thought I was asking the company to call the Wizard of Oz and talk him into letting us into the city. Like Like, that's what I thought I was doing. And they were like, oh, no, that's on us. We'll just pay for it. I was like, Oh, okay. So we just got lucky when I told my wife. She's like, what I was like, See, I told you I work it out. But the truth is, I just got lucky. So good. I don't know what the hell I was talking about. Even at the time.

"Laura" 32:03
No, you asked, the only thing they could do was say no. Yeah.

Scott Benner 32:07
I mean, that's actually it's how I got a girl to party for me to marry me even I was like, I mean, you know, she's tall. She's pretty people don't see, they seem to be like afraid of her. It's like, I'll just try.

"Laura" 32:18
I mean, if I'm being honest, my husband, his CIO, my husband's a computer nerd.

Scott Benner 32:27
And, by the way, not what you say, but

"Laura" 32:32
um, his CIO, it has a wife, that's also a T one. He obviously has paved the way but they cover things. I mean, he has amazing insurance because his CIOs wife was like, No, you you're going to do? Yeah.

Scott Benner 32:48
Well, and so yeah, I understand what that means, too, is that once you get, you know, people here, oh, this place covers this, that cover CGM covers all that. Like every person they hire in with that. That's money going out the door. Again, that's them paying for your pods or your pumps or your insulin or whatever. That's really and so that's a real kindness when you find people doing that.

"Laura" 33:10
Absolutely. It's because you have executives with integrity.

Scott Benner 33:14
That's it. You don't see another reason for it at all.

"Laura" 33:17
I mean, I'm sure. You know, listen, I'm sure that he brings great value to his company. And I'm sure as does everyone, right? Or he wouldn't have a job. But at the end of the day, it's because you have executives with integrity, right? Because

Scott Benner 33:34
they could hire somebody as good as you who doesn't need an insulin pump. Right, right. Hmm. I have other questions that might not be connected to this, can I just ask real quickly? Go for it.

"Laura" 33:45
I'm a wealth of information.

Scott Benner 33:47
I think you might be back actually one day, but we like when the company's like, Hey, you can get life insurance through us, for example. And it's like up to one to nine times your pay or whatever. There's always value in doing at least what they're what the company is paying for. Is that right? Absolutely. Yeah. Always, always take that. What about health care spending accounts? Is that a good thing to do? Depends

"Laura" 34:10
on the plan. So previous to diabetes, we always had an HSA. But since diagnosis, we have gone to back to a traditional PPO plan, with a low deductible because HSAs are hit and miss because they only find as you get paid and you fund them. So if you have a $3,000 bill in January, you may not hit $3,000 in your HSA until June, right? So they're tricky, and it's always something to look at.

Scott Benner 34:46
That is what happens to us. We so we we take the mat I actually we put the maximum we're allowed into our HSA and because you're really it's just the tax shelter for the money, right? Right. Yeah. So but like you said, In January, when like, it's pomp time or this time, you're like, ooh, the first time like your your CGM is cost $2,000. And you're like the other 20 bucks in June, what the hell, you know, like that, that kind of stuff is shocking. And if you don't have cash aside for it, it's obviously problematic. Yeah. Or it's like that initial hospital though, when your child first goes in and is diagnosing, you have to pay it literally on the spot. And you're like, Okay, I'll

"Laura" 35:27
give you whatever you need. Just keep my child alive, right? And you're like, Holy shit, that was a lot of money. Like, how did I just come up with five grand to give them like literally on the spot, and then you're re evaluating, okay, we maybe need to change our insurance, because I don't know that I can do that all the time. That's not necessarily practical. Yeah, it is a thing too. I

Scott Benner 35:50
never forget when I moved into my house, my neighbor was older than me by almost 20 years. And he was already sending his kids to college. And I was like, how do you pay for all that? And he goes out, you'll figure it out. I was like, that's your advice. And he goes, that's how it works manually to figure it out, or you won't, I was like, Okay, thanks

"Laura" 36:09
for being college right now. And I'm like, Oh, my God,

Scott Benner 36:12
how are we doing this? Nicholas, I mean, they call me I am working art in art in just left school, like five hours ago, striving home, like the semesters or the quarters over. And she's like, there's, I need money in my account for the drive home. And I was like, okay. So I'll transfer some money in your account.

"Laura" 36:31
I mean, I literally had to send my daughter $900, a couple days ago for a new computer. And I'm like, okay, cool. I don't have anything else going on. Sure.

Scott Benner 36:41
I'll just keep wearing these sneakers, another six months, it'll be fine. Forget the hole in the side, I'm wrapping it with duck. It really does. It is the way it goes. So it was like you're living. You're living like you're in college. And they're there. Okay, that was going on. Anyway. Okay, so that's the HR side and what you might expect from your company, but now you work for an insurance company. So how are we getting stuck that way? Because

"Laura" 37:09
they're gonna deny everything you said to them, at least once. And then thankfully, we have a really good endocrinologist who literally, you know, when I'm like, listen, they're not gonna, like, they're not going to approve it, you know, blah, blah, blah, like I work, not for the insurance company that we have, but like, I work for an insurance company, and they're gonna deny it, like, I know how this works. And she's like, No, no, let me take care of it. We know how to write these things to make sure that it gets approved. And I'm like, Okay, I don't know this, the science or the specific behind it. But I have come to realize how insanely important it is, to find an endocrinologist who will write the prior authorization requests the way that they need to be written to get approved. It's fascinating.

Scott Benner 37:58
I, I needed. So I don't know how much of the podcasts you listen to, or you don't listen to. But I've been using weego V for weight loss for like nine months now. And I really need I've lost 40 pounds. It's made a significant change. You look amazing. Oh, thank you very nice. Anyway, when I went to the doctor, the doctors like, look, obviously you need this, your BMI supports it. But I said, Do you think it'll get covered? She goes, I know what to do. I was like, okay, and boom, right through like it was nothing.

"Laura" 38:25
Yeah, like my son, he's now 19. So I can't do it for him anymore. I just send them insulin. So he doesn't die, because he doesn't get it himself. But the difference is, and the endocrinologist are like, night and day, like there's not enough words to describe it. And I'm like this, like, how do you not even have enough insulin to get through a month? Like, why is it not being approved? And he's like, I don't know. That's just what they'll give me. And I'm like, okay, clearly, I need to have a conversation with them and be like, you, you know, here's how you write this. This is where my 10 year old, I have a ton of extra insulin. And thank God because that's how I'm keeping my 19 year old alive. Like literally, I'm shipping it to him every month.

Scott Benner 39:10
Your younger kid is that a pediatric Endo, they know how to say, Yeah, let's just we'll say the need is this and that way, you'll get an extra vial and you'll be okay. And like that kind of stuff. And the adult endo is just like, they don't give a crap and they don't try very hard and your son is 19. So he's not pushing back. And that leaves him without insulin. Right? Yep. He gets about half of what he needs uninsured person. Yeah, yeah. Gotcha. And that's just because the doctor doesn't know how to deal with the insurance company.

"Laura" 39:41
Yes. And also I have a child but I got like, Yeah, whatever.

Scott Benner 39:46
He's a little dopey or whatever we got going. I don't want to say to your kid don't say, so. He might hear this one day, like I'm not dopey

"Laura" 39:55
all the time. I'm like, you're pretty mouthy for a kid who relies on his mother at all. If

Scott Benner 40:01
you're like, I'll shut the insolence pick it off, and then we'll see who's listening. But what this points out bigger picture, my opinion is that there are rules set up on the insurance side that are meant to block you from getting your services. And then doctors and other people on the outside have to figure out how to navigate the system, which is a polite way of saying write down what doesn't get caught by the computer or the checker. So it somehow slides through the machine and ends up at the end with a check mark on it. You get your thing, right. Yep, that's exactly how it works. Everyone's just trying to screw you. Yep. And if you go with it, they're not going to say this is a contention I've had the entire time. Like back when I was younger, Arden was diagnosed. Again, I told you, I didn't know what I was doing as much. But that's the first thing I said to Kelly was like, they deny everything the first time. Yep, that just happens. And it doesn't matter if it's covered even they just go No. And then because if you call if you're not willing to call back, they just saved the money. Right? It's that simple. And then if it's covered, you call back they go Oh, yeah, you know, we just needed this from the doctor. And then they tell you what to get. And then it's covered. So you push back a little bit, you get your covered things paid for. But then the what happens when things. So there's, I don't know if you're, how much you're in the private Facebook group. But there's a lot to do you know, Sam, who helps people, Sam writes letters that get people their stuff. She's magical at it. But that's really what it is, is she's able willing her brain works the right way to sit down, look at the look at the rules. And she knows how to write something that circumvents the rules that the insurance company put in place to stop them from having to pay you for the things you deserve. Yes,

"Laura" 41:55
yes. Okay. Like my I work for a small boutique insurance company, right? And they decided, when they announced the 2024 plans, it specified that CGM weren't going to be covered anymore, like in any capacity. And I, internally and to my husband through the biggest fit, I was like, Oh, my God, no, we are not doing this. And then a couple other people that like, No, my passion for this spoke out and and it quickly changed to oh, well, Medicare covered will cover Medicare covered CGM 's. And I'm like, Yeah, you will. And so why did

Scott Benner 42:36
why do you think that happened? Did it happen because they were seeing more people with diabetes? Or do you think they saw the news about people wanting to use CGM for overall health and stuff and they thought, let's get ahead of this and make sure we don't cover these things?

"Laura" 42:47
I to be honest with you, I think it was purely cost. purely a budget like we weren't, you know, it was, hey, we're gonna save X number of dollars by not allowing it CGM. So we're gonna just exclude it from coverage next year.

Scott Benner 42:59
Can you do me a favor? Can you put $1 amount that was saved? And tell me the like the operating budget for the year for the company?

"Laura" 43:07
I don't have that info.

Scott Benner 43:09
Can you guess about it? Like, how much are they saving? How much do you think they saved?

"Laura" 43:13
Oh, goodness. Well, we have I mean, I talked to probably five people a day that are on a libre, a few that are on a duck's calm that I talked to. So that's not just me. And there's 100 of us, right, that take those phone calls. So I mean, it's definitely in the millions. They're saving

Scott Benner 43:34
millions of dollars by saying so. So basically, they look at that spreadsheet you talked about, they see a line, the numbers read, they go over to the left, it says CGM and they go okay. They don't even know what the hell that is. They don't even care, right?

"Laura" 43:46
No, no, I, I would venture to guess 85 to 90% of them have no idea what a CGM is.

Scott Benner 43:55
It's just a red. It's a red line. And they need to get rid of it. Yep. It was something they wanted to laser out. Is there no, like, what if it was like cancer medication? Is there any thing where like, societal pressure stops them? Well, I

"Laura" 44:10
think that was why they ended up a week later, changing their tune was because of the societal pressure. Because there was not only employees, but there was a lot of members that they insure that we're like, Hell, no, you're not doing that.

Scott Benner 44:24
Oh, so even the companies that are buying the insurance from them are like, Hey, I have diabetes, like hold up, like that kind of thing. Do you think if they would have known that before they struck it, they wouldn't have or do you think they would just strike it just see what would happen next?

"Laura" 44:39
Oh, the way that this company operates, they were gonna do it anyway and then just take the gamble. They're always going to take the gamble,

Scott Benner 44:46
right? And then if somebody benches, then we'll backpedals. We have to.

"Laura" 44:49
Yep. Always.

Scott Benner 44:52
You know, again, I have to say purely from a business perspective. It makes sense to me. I'm not shocked I'm not even appalled, actually. I'm just like, Okay, I get it. Like I see. Now, if you told me that this is a, you told me this is a $25 billion a year company. And they, they did this and they were gonna save 3 million bucks. Then I go, come on, like, you know what I mean? Like, what are we doing here? Do you think that that's charged by operating budget? Like we want to have more in the bank? Or is it can it literally be the more of these things we cut away? The more money the CEO and the board and that those types of people end up taking home at the end of the year? No,

"Laura" 45:34
it wasn't the people. They're working on building new hospitals and they want they want the money. I know that they took a decent loss. I think every company took a decent loss during COVID. And they're trying to make up for that shortfall. By doing anything they can and have art, they're wanting to expand. They're trying to expand. It's just not able to happen as fast as originally planned. Yeah,

Scott Benner 45:58
they wanted it as capital, they needed it for operating. Yeah. You know, anybody who's got kids in college through COVID. And after COVID, will see that the incoming freshman classes after COVID don't fit in the buildings, right. And the colleges don't care if they're like, We need more like there are a pile of children in colleges they probably couldn't otherwise get into because they had money. And those colleges needed to sell those spots to get the money back. They lost during COVID. Absolutely, yeah. And then it hurts everything going forward. Everything except the bottom line, the bottom line is service. And you get poor poor experience in college you get you know less, more students to teachers, you get crappier teachers, like you get all kinds of like bad all kinds of bad comes from it. But in the end, the school will have more money in the bank when it's all over.

"Laura" 46:48
And your personal reward is hundreds of 1000s of dollars of student debt.

Scott Benner 46:51
That yes, and you'll go get a job that won't cover your insurance rates for you. And then you can just work your life away trying to pay it off. And hopefully you won't get sick but if you do, don't worry, we'll find a reason to fire you. Right. Perfect. This has been really uplifting thank

"Laura" 47:09
god, oh my god. But I have discovered like so a whole nother subject but like an LPN at my son's school two years ago when he was diagnosed like literally almost killed him not once but twice. And so I you know, we wrote the OCR, we did the whole thing. And I realized like that this is my job in life is like to be a whistleblower to like, these practices. I'm gonna hold schools accountable. You companies, you do dumb shit. I'm coming after you. I'm gonna hold you accountable

Scott Benner 47:43
for you. Well, we gotta get you a job doing that. Like, I know, we need like a small nonprofit to hire you. Yes, absolutely. People.

"Laura" 47:54
I'm literally a wealth of knowledge. I have so much legal background, like not from the employment law side anymore from like, you know, EDA, 504. I have, I'm telling you, I'm a wealth of knowledge. I

Scott Benner 48:07
know, an HR professional, pretty high up in a midsize company. And you can tell it everything about their job pulls on their heart, like, constantly, like they're always downtrodden when they're talking about work. And it's a little bit like, I can't believe I'm the one that has to do this stuff. Yeah, that kind of feeling.

"Laura" 48:26
Well, I officially retired from the HR side, when I had an employee fatality. I was like, Nope, I will never be the person to do that again. So by Can

Scott Benner 48:36
you give me color on that? They

"Laura" 48:38
had somebody die. Oh, yeah. So they were 18 came to work. Hi. And I was driving a forklift and trying to do fun, fancy tricks on it. And

Scott Benner 48:57
yeah, but it was like

"Laura" 48:58
10 o'clock, the day before Thanksgiving. And I was like, I will never, ever and of course, me being you know, the only female on the executive team got a guy nominated to make that phone call. You had to call his parents. So I had to be the one to call up parents. I had to be the one to do the press release to you know, talk to the media because it was everywhere, right? And I was like, never again, not doing it. So I, you know, had to bring in the grief counselors and do the whole thing. And I mean, you know, of course, I got a very nice bonus out of it. And literally, three months later, I was like, nope, not doing this guy's like, bye. I'm out. And I went that's why the company

Scott Benner 49:42
didn't do anything wrong. Like the kids showed up high. Nobody knew it and this is what happened. Right?

"Laura" 49:47
Yeah, the company didn't do anything wrong. And we I you know, but just with OSHA, we reinforce safety roles, all of it, but like I still personally don't want to ever do that again. This

Scott Benner 49:59
the poster on The wall now say no heroin while you're working, or I mean, what is the like? How do you reinforce that safety role? Well, ultimately,

"Laura" 50:07
the facility ended up getting shut down, not by OSHA, but just because there were a slew of other problems. And I just was like, Okay, I am putting together a lot of us, were you but like, I'm out. So I gave, I gave him like, three months. And then I was like, okay, it

Scott Benner 50:26
just made you. It made your heart heavy, and you want to move on and do something else.

"Laura" 50:29
Yeah, so I came to the benefits I thinking like, or to the insurance companies, I thinking like, that would be easier for me personally, to deal with, like mentally. And now I'm like, maybe not, Oh, hell no.

Scott Benner 50:42
I, when I was very young, like in my early 20s, I used to collect credit card debts. And I had to stop doing it. I was I was really good at it. And it just made me feel bad all the time. Like, there's no doubt these people spent this money they owed the money, like all that. And I'm not even talking about the the interest rates, like I know, they're, you know, I know that I know the game, might they get you to buy a couple things. I mean, right now people's credit cards are like it like 24%. Like, I don't even like if you're buying something on a credit card, and you don't have to please stop. But But anyway, this would happen. People get under, then, you know, they're just trying to get your monthlies out of you. Like really, I don't know that people understand that credit card companies, insurance companies, some businesses, they're all really just, they're in business to make money. So they can their investment companies, basically, the most insurance companies are investment companies, right? Yeah. So they need the money so they can invest it and make more money. So they get into something where they make a bunch of money, your health is probably 20th on their list of what's important to them. And, you know, they're just they're collecting fees, and then using the fees to, you know, buy stocks, do trading, like that kind of stuff and try to make money that way. Anyway, I couldn't do it anymore. I was just I was too good at it. And some of those people were lying, and they just didn't want to pay. But some of them were really in trouble. And I was good at cajoling them into paying. And then I just left one day and I told my wife, I'm like, I have to stop doing this. Like, it's hard. It's just it's heavy. I don't want to be the one that makes these people give somebody this money.

"Laura" 52:20
So yeah, I mean, I've experienced that with the company I work for Right? Like, the most heartbreaking stories like, is it me, it was me four years ago of, hey, my teenager just got diagnosed with type one. What do I do? And I'm like, Okay, this is what like, I give them like, line by line, like exactly what you need to write what you need to do. And at the end of the day, I know I'm costing my company money, but like, do I care? Now? Because I'm going to do what? Like, I know what that mom's feeling like, I know that the mental anguish, the emotional, the physical, like, I know exactly how she's feeling because that was me a few years ago,

Scott Benner 53:00
we will at some point your company, do an auditing of the people who have your job and say, Laura is costing us more money than other people. I think she's being too kind to them. No, they

"Laura" 53:12
actually have offered me a promotion. I declined it because I don't want to be in management anymore. Because

Scott Benner 53:17
of your knowledge, because you know what you're doing? Yeah, I see because you know, your way around even their rules. Yeah. So they'll put you into management to put a stop to other people understanding how to get around the rules. Yeah,

"Laura" 53:30
I'm 100%. And outside the box thinker always happen. Like you give me a roll off, figure out how to break it not like in a mean spirited way. But like in a you tell me that x y&z has to happen it fit inside this box, I'm gonna figure out how to get a outside. Like, that's how I've always been.

Scott Benner 53:48
This is all very disappointing. Even though I was even though I was ready for it. Like I knew, I mean, nothing about again, nothing about this surprise me, I'm still incredibly disappointed. But, you know, you know where, where you have to look for, like a bright light is you have to you gotta have to hope somebody like Laura is just like, I'm not going to do this anymore. Or a person like me is like, you know what, I'm too good at collecting data from people and I feel bad about I'm not getting my son coming out of college. I had a job opportunity. And he I don't want to say what it was. But he he said to me, I don't want to police people. And it wasn't he wasn't going to be a police officer was a job where you would have overseen people he's like, I hope people are using or understanding the term policing correctly, but he's like, he's like, I don't want to be in charge of telling people what to do. I'm not I'm not doing that. And it was really good paying. And he said, I am I'm not going to be a party to to overseeing people like that.

"Laura" 54:47
Yeah. And I totally I totally get that sentiment because that's kind of how I I was I felt, especially towards the end of my HR career. I was like, nothing more than a referee. You're

Scott Benner 55:01
in general, your job is. I mean, it's nice to you to come on and take this conversation from another perspective. But your job is like, how do I screw people to save money? That's your whole job. And it happens to be around health. But the truth is, is that in almost every walk of business, that's what's going on? Oh, absolutely. That's what's going on down to the littlest things like, I take ads on this podcast, right? The podcast does incredibly well for the people who advertise on it. And at the end of every year, someone gets in a room and half heartedly goes to me, we can afford it to go up. And I'm like, Yes, you can. You know, you can, I know, you can, you know, you can't afford to stop buying ads on this podcast, like the whole thing. But we still go through the motion, every time, the same thing happens. And it's not, they're not bad people, not a bad company. As a matter of fact, they're fantastic that the podcast exists there, somebody's going to get this information for free. Because of the advertisers. I love them. They're fantastic. But we still dance the dance, every time, we all know where the dance ends up. And yet we put on our shoes and play the music. And here we go. Let's see if I can squeeze 3% out of this, like, you know, so I can go back and tell somebody I squeezed 3% out of this. It's just, it's it's miserable. Miserable is a good word. I don't know another way to put it, I actually, I'm okay with it, like big and not just okay with it, I'm happy about it. Because that means the information gets to people, and it's free. And that's important. It's important for the podcast to be free for a couple of reasons. The top reason is not everybody would pay for it. So now, for the cost of like, whatever I would have to charge $6 a month or something for you to listen to the podcast, 99 cents a download or whatever, like to save a you know, $100 a year for you as a listener. Some people won't spend that. And now Now for the love of $100. For example, there's some kid walking around out there doesn't know how to Pre-Bolus and 30 years from now we'll be getting needles in his eyes or something like that, because they didn't have access to good information. So I'm not I won't restrict the information. Well,

"Laura" 57:11
listen, given what we just talked about. People can't afford it. You know what I

Scott Benner 57:15
say? Yeah, no kidding. Like, yeah, now I'm asking, like, anyway, at my fundamental core, I am not up for asking people to pay for better health. That's not something I'm okay with. Like I just, I'm just flatly not okay with it. And so it has to be advertiser driven. Because this is a I know, some people might be like, it's a podcast, you're just talking to the microphone, you'd deck but it's a it's a 70 hour a week job at minimum 24/7. I don't take a day off. I'm managing something at midnight, while you're all sleeping. I was up till like 11 Last night making edits and ads. And then I got in bed and somebody's like, hey, somebody reported a post in the group, you gotta go look at that. I was doing that at like two o'clock in the morning. I'm recording with you and getting taxed right now. Hey, somebody put a post up. We think it has to come down. And can you take a look at it? Like it's a nonstop thing? Right. So I don't think I should be wealthy over it. I'm not saying that. But I am like, it needs to be covered financially, because I have bills and children in the home and stuff like that. Absolutely. And

"Laura" 58:17
I have to tell you, thank you, to you. We went to pediatric endocrinologist Monday, and our 10 year old agency was 5.4. And we could not have even come close to doing that without your help. Oh, that's lovely. And all the knowledge you provide us.

Scott Benner 58:33
So nice to have you. I appreciate you saying that. And congratulations. And oh my

"Laura" 58:36
god, that's the funny story in my house is my younger ones always like I just don't want to be like him because he knows that the older ones fairly non compliant. And he's like, I don't want to end up like him. Why? Why is he being so stupid? Why does he do that slide. And he's like, Mommy, I'm not moving out until I'm 25. And I'm only going to move out when I have a responsible wife and like the other because he sees what the other one's going through and how his girlfriend is like, you're on insulin. Oh, well, maybe you should call your mom. Not like Hey, buddy, you're gonna be out of insulin in three days. Call your mom.

Scott Benner 59:12
Why don't we do something? Your your I like your young sons, like I need a lady to tell me what to do, or I'm gonna be in trouble. That's some clear thinking. I'm in trouble with that a lady telling me what to do. I'm being perfectly honest. So

"Laura" 59:26
I'm being very honest about that. He's always like, we were joking about boarding school. Cuz, you know, it was a joke. And he was like, Mommy, I can't go I don't have you to manage my diabetes. And I'm like, buddy, I'm trying to teach you because like, I know you are but like, I can't do it without you. Yeah,

Scott Benner 59:43
well, and the point is, is like your point is when people are living like that. Can you imagine that? Even if I were to say like, Hey, look, I have the answer for you, but it's gonna cost you $250 a year. And you know, and I people would go no, thank you. And so from me being focused on helping people Oh, I can't put a paywall between the information. Like it just won't work. Right?

"Laura" 1:00:06
I consciously couldn't do it. Like,

Scott Benner 1:00:08
I mean, I my conscience, but I mean, you heard me with the debt. Yeah, I'm not good. I couldn't do it. Like if I if I was reaching in my pocket to buy a sandwich, and I thought I was pulling $10 out that someone gave me to learn how to Pre-Bolus I would probably vomit. So yeah, I'm not the right person for that job. But it's interesting that you made it into this kind of work, but you're the person you are. So did you, like you said, you started out really young? I'm assuming in the beginning, you didn't know what you're getting into. And then once you're into it, you're like, Well, this is how I make my living. I'm good at it, whatever. Like, I can't just leave here. And and then that's kind of how that how can I ask this? If you have a group of employees that are all doing the same thing as you, do you think if we got them all together, most of them would say, I do the thing, and I feel bad about it.

"Laura" 1:00:59
I think you probably have 5050, I've, I've run across so many HR professionals in my career, and some of them are like, I hate my job, but I'm really good at it. And it been funny, so I do it. And then you have the other half that are like, Oh, I don't care.

Scott Benner 1:01:18
You know, whatever little dangus cons, they would have been like, five, 6000 years ago, they would have been like, Whatever, let's just Yeah, that's fine. Listen, I also don't, I don't That doesn't surprise me either. That people's you know, sensibilities are different. I was just wondering how many people are like downtrodden in these jobs? And, you know, so here's my I'm gonna let you go. Right, unless there's something we haven't said. But I have a last question for you. Of course,

"Laura" 1:01:43
is there a fix in this that serves the company and the employee? Or Is there really no winning? The fix, honestly, is honest conversations, finding out what your employee base needs. But people are too scared to talk about it from both sides, not just from the employee side, but management is also scared to talk about it. So I think that that's the biggest thing is going to be lots of honest conversations, aside from the fact like, the whole system just needs an overhaul like, why am I filling out a PA, diabetes didn't go away? Like, you know, I still have it. I've had it, you know, for three years now, like, Stop making me fill out the same paperwork, but they're gonna keep doing like, that's just stupid. Yeah, like, they're gonna keep doing it until someone says something like,

Scott Benner 1:02:31
at the beginning of the year, when like, your district, your distributor goes like, well, we have to get, you know, a letter from your doctor that says you have diabetes, and like, my daughter's had diabetes for 15 years that didn't go it didn't like, What are you talking about? How it's done? Like, oh, okay, and they don't know, either you have them on? And they go? Yeah, I don't know. It's what it is, we have an entire world, that if, if you every stop for five minutes, looked at each other, and we're honest, everyone would go, I don't know why it's like this. It shouldn't be like this. But yet it is. And it perpetuates itself, and keeps everybody going. And they're, you know, there's an argument that it's just that society gives people things to do, because people need things to do, or they'll become either lazy or aggressive. So you just you build these, like, bullshit tasks into people's lives to keep them focused.

"Laura" 1:03:19
Yeah. And I mean, I have to say, like, I pride myself on I am, obviously my best interest are with the company, right? But like, I am a very empathetic person. So I always and I did a lot of project work, consulting. Once I got, like, good at my job. And I would always sit down employees, and be like, Okay, listen, let's have an honest conversation. And some of them were extremely honest with you, because they were like, Oh, my God, no one's ever talked to me about this before. And I'm like, What can we do to make it better for you know, blah, blah, blah, other employees that were like, it's fine, let's just keep it the way it is. I'm gonna go back now. And I'm like, okay, so you're you get that. But you also have to take that information up the chain, and you're looking in the white of a CEOs eyes and being like, look, the people think you're a complete douchebag fix it. Like, you know, you're you're just money hungry. You're you're not a lot like this is how they're seeing you. And so it's having lots of honest conversations, but people are scared. I've never been scared. I don't get scared about people. Hence why. I've done OCR, and I've talked, I've done all the things I've done, but it takes a lot to do that. And I I like to bridge that gap, but it also takes a mental toll on the person doing it. And that goes unnoticed, right 100% of the time.

Scott Benner 1:04:45
And this this why all this what we're talking about. This is why small companies can't even afford to offer people health insurance. Yeah, yeah. Because if they go full pay, it's probably crazy expensive because the insurance company is not making enough of a VIG off of it because there's not enough P People, and if they go self pay and one person gets sick, they're out of business. Right? Gotcha. Yep. Okay. Well, everyone jumped out a window.

"Laura" 1:05:12
I told my husband every day, I'm like, I don't care how much you don't like your job, you're never leaving it like you have anything. This is

Scott Benner 1:05:18
what's happening. I have to say my wife's benefits are terrific. And they are it is, it is the thing we passed on to our kids. As far as I've said to them, Look, you want to work for a large cash rich organization? That's your best bet at getting decent health care? I mean, am I wrong about that? No,

"Laura" 1:05:39
I don't think you're wrong about it. I would say I don't know that being cash rich as a company is like, it's a priority. But I don't think it's the biggest priority, just because

Scott Benner 1:05:48
they might just choose to keep more of that money for themselves and not spread it around. Or

"Laura" 1:05:52
they could be, you know, executives have integrity and be like, Look, we need to do this to get work a good working population, because the reality is, from what I've experienced in my career and talking to others, your highest performing employees always have some sort of health situation going on. So they're going to be expensive, but they're also going to save you your you know,

Scott Benner 1:06:18
they're going to cost you but they're also going to make you a lot more money. hardworking people are killing themselves faster. Yep. Yeah. That's, that's a joke about my wife's job that we have between us. And like, they pay you a little more because they know they're killing you. And they're trying to keep you here doing it. And the only way they can figure out to do it is to incentivize you like that. Yeah.

"Laura" 1:06:38
So I think that, you know, the reality is, there are some companies that realize that, but like, realize, hey, we've got to take care of these employees if we want them. If not, we're gonna settle for mediocrity, and we're gonna get what we get. So you either pay for health insurance, or you don't. And that's a gamble, too. Yeah,

Scott Benner 1:06:57
about that. Isn't that interesting? It's all very, it's all incredibly interesting.

"Laura" 1:07:01
I can tell you by name, every single one of my high performing employees I ever worked with, and I can tell you also by name exactly. Every one of the medications they took for every single one of their diagnosis.

Scott Benner 1:07:13
Wow. Well, that's, again, not surprising, but interesting to hear you say it out loud. I really appreciate you coming on and doing this. And let me call you, Laura. Of course.

"Laura" 1:07:24
I'm happy to be here.

Scott Benner 1:07:25
I'm gonna ask a question. Now, you told a story earlier about an accident. You think that that story has too many details? And do you think people would be able to tell who you are from that?

"Laura" 1:07:36
Now? Well, that. I mean, at the end of the day, that company doesn't exist anymore. They were bought out. That was the final thing I did. Okay. All right. Well, we can pretty much notice and I was like Carol put the package together. And then I'm out. I'm doing this

Scott Benner 1:07:49
last thing and then I'll go and by the way, you did take the bonus, which I would have as well. I just it's interesting. Oh, of course, but it's a thing we don't even talk about, like you had to do a distasteful difficult thing. And the way they did it was their like your take some extra money, like Sorry about this. Like that was really it. Like, thanks for going in there and cleaning out that sewer. Here's an extra couple dollars. Yep. Everything's money. Yep. Okay. All right. I'm gonna go, I'm just gonna go sit, and I'm gonna weep in a corner, and then I'll put my keyboard. Oh, my God, do you think everyone's scared now listening? They're like, Oh, my God, I know, it's not enough to just get a job with insurance. I have to pretend I'm not sick, or they'll boot me out eventually.

"Laura" 1:08:33
I mean, well, that's why there are laws that say you don't disclose this. You don't have to. I mean, you know, of course, everyone has a personal choice to make. But there are laws for your protection for a reason. And I highly encourage everyone to do their research before they go interview.

Scott Benner 1:08:54
And if you get if you get fired for some tic tac, little bolts reason, tell them right away, you're getting an attorney, right?

"Laura" 1:09:01
Yeah, don't do anything else don't. Like, in my positions, I always had to sign an NDA when I was coming and going, or, you know, signing different documents. And I have learned, yeah, don't do that. Because then I gave up my right to, you know, sue for sexual harassment, or I gave up my right for whatever, my sign of the NDA,

Scott Benner 1:09:23
you give up your rights.

"Laura" 1:09:26
Yeah. But again, that was also almost always in exchange for money. He was here, we'll give you $10,000 But we need you to sign this. And it's like, and of course, when I was younger, I did it. But now I'm like, oh, no, no, because your $10,000 is pocket change compared to what I'm gonna get from you. If

Scott Benner 1:09:47
you guys break these when they turn you in. Yeah. Wow. I can't believe the whole world like works like this. I'm gonna get a small cabin near a running Creek and give up. If you're all lucky, I'll get a good dinner. connection and keep making the podcast but I'm getting out of this. Like that's it. You know, I'll leave you with this. My neighbor's, like I told you like 1520 years older than me. And I was talking to him recently. And he just looked at me super seriously. And he said, Scott, I don't know how much money you think you need to get through the rest of your life, but get it together as fast as you can and stop working. It's my best advice. And I was like, Okay, thanks. Goes to Christmas future. Like, like, sad Ghost of Christmas Future. He's just like, I have medical problems now. And all the things I thought I was going to do I can't even do when I did save the money, but it took me longer than I thought I was going to. And he starts laughing. He goes, your generation is going to need way more money to live than my generation. Did he laughing and I'm like, Oh my god. Okay, I'll quit now. He's like, Oh, you can't quit now. You're gonna save up money first. And it was like, but you don't think I'll be able to save it up? And he goes, Yeah, probably not. And I was like, so I just worked till the end. And then he goes down and your feet hurt and you die. And I went, okay. Alright, thanks. I was like, again, everybody with the good news? You know, Damien was like, All right, Laura, thank you very much. Hold on for me for a

"Laura" 1:11:07
second. Sure.

Scott Benner 1:11:14
Like to thank Laura for coming on the show today and sharing her knowledge about the human resources and insurance processes and the back room things that we don't see. This episode of The Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by the contour next gen blood glucose meter. Learn more and get started today at contour next one.com/juice box. A huge thanks to us med for sponsoring this episode of The Juicebox Podcast. Don't forget us med.com/juice box this is where we get our diabetes supplies from you can as well use the link or call 888-721-1514 Use the link or call the number get your free benefits check so that you can start getting your diabetes supplies the way we do from us med. If you're looking for community around type one diabetes, check out the Juicebox Podcast private Facebook group Juicebox Podcast type one diabetes, but everybody is welcome type one type two gestational loved ones. It doesn't matter to me. If you're impacted by diabetes, and you're looking for support, comfort or community, check out Juicebox Podcast type one diabetes on Facebook. If you're enjoying the cold wind podcast, please share it with someone who you think might also enjoy it. And if you know a health care professional, who would be a great guest on the podcast, please share it with them as well. If you're not already subscribed or following in your favorite audio app, please take the time now to do that. It really helps the show and get those automatic downloads set up so you never miss an episode. Thank you so much for listening. I'll be back very soon with another episode of The Juicebox Podcast.

#1102 Grand Rounds: Diagnosing Diabetes

The second Grand Rounds discussion focuses on what happens when you're diagnosed with diabetes by your regular doctor. We explore the common symptoms that could be misinterpreted, the misinformation surrounding diabetes, and how doctors' egos can sometimes play a role in the diagnostic process.

+ Click for EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Scott Benner 0:00
Hello friends, welcome to episode 1102 of the Juicebox Podcast

Welcome back everybody today Jenny and I are going to do another grand rounds episode we're going to talk about being diagnosed with your regular old doctor. We'll talk about symptoms that could easily be misdiagnosed. misinformation about diabetes, and a little bit about doctors egos. Nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise, always consult a physician before making any changes to your health care plan. Don't forget to save 40% off of your entire order at cozy earth.com. All you have to do is use the offer code juice box at checkout that's juice box at checkout to save 40% at cosy earth.com. When you place your first order for ag one with my link, you'll get five free travel packs and a free year supply of vitamin D. Drink ag one.com/juice box. If you're a physician listening to this and you'd like to make a rebuttal or add to the conversation, you can find me at juicebox podcast.com and send me an email I'd love to have you on the show

this episode of The Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by touched by type one touched by type one.org. And find them on Facebook and Instagram touched by type one is an organization dedicated to helping people living with type one diabetes. And they have so many different programs that are doing just that check them out at touched by type one.org. This episode of The Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by the continuous glucose monitor that my daughter wears the Dexcom G seven dexcom.com/juice box Get started today using this link. And you'll not only be doing something great for yourself, you'll be supporting the Juicebox Podcast. This show is sponsored today by the glucagon that my daughter carries. G voc hypo Penn. Find out more at G voc glucagon.com. Forward slash juicebox. Jenny, welcome back to the Grand Rounds series. Yeah, are you?

Jennifer Smith, CDE 2:31
I'm fine. Oh, so

Scott Benner 2:34
far, so good. Today, we did our opening intro episode, we've done emergent care. So if you're diagnosed and in such trouble that you're in urgent care and emergency rooms, something like that. But today we're going to talk about, you know, what might happen if you have symptoms that come on and you end up in your regular doctor's office, nothing that makes you go to the hospital, but still lands you in medical attention. So yes, yeah, well,

Jennifer Smith, CDE 3:04
that's an interesting place to kind of start to because most people who have some symptoms that are concerning, are typically going to call their primary care. Yeah. Right. And or talk to the intake nurse or whoever. And depending on what you say, when you call, you may or may not get in today, tomorrow or a week, right from now. So I think it's important to think about how you present the symptoms and the fact that, you know, these are very irregular, this isn't what normally happens to you or your child or you know, the person that you're caring for. And to be really specific in what you say in that call. Because again, it may be a more emergent type of setting. And in those cases, I think what I've mostly seen is that parents especially they don't wait, they just off to the emergency room, you go call

Scott Benner 4:08
this go kid seems sick. I don't want to make another one. Let's do this. Now. I think this is an interesting conversation, because if you have it specifically from the perspective of people who have diabetes, or have been through this, they'll tell you things like I don't understand why doctors offices just don't do a finger stick when you present with the symptoms. And and that's because you know, that's why you think that right? Like I'm not saying if we couldn't snap our fingers and have everybody who had flu like symptoms, get a finger stick, that wouldn't be a great thing. It would I'm sure it would catch a lot of issues. But doctors offices until they see it happen, aren't going to think that way. You know, the problem could be you call your doctor and say I feel rundown. Right? I'm losing weight. Like you're describing how Bringing the flu, and then they'd be right and but who you're talking to, you're talking to the person at the desk at the doctor's office who maybe as a medical assistant, probably, maybe not, maybe you're lucky to get to a nurse, and you start describing flu like symptoms during flu season. And they're gonna say, you've got the flu, because in medicine, and you're trained, so this is just something I know colloquially. But if it walks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck, it's not a lot of reason to think it's a tiger. And so, you know, I think that's how that works. Also, if you know, physicians, especially like general practitioner, people, you'll know that they see themselves more as sometimes just reflecting what's going on in the community, if you come in with symptoms that people have been coming in with for two weeks. That's where the assumption gets made. So it's not it's not even anyone's fault. Honestly, that it gets missed,

Jennifer Smith, CDE 5:55
especially seasonally, and or, you know, we've just had now a month ish, or maybe a little bit more, depending on where you live, of school starting. And so the influx of kids coming in or being called about, you know, my child was sent home from school with such and such, or, I've noticed this, you know, in Frankie, because, you know, this wasn't normal, but school just started. So there's a lot of consideration that's like gray area, when you present with symptoms that they do need a good evaluation, but how it gets evaluated? Is the question.

Scott Benner 6:32
I think that it's important if you're the doctor to hear this. I know. I mean, what what is the number Jenny? How many Americans have type one diabetes? Is it like getting close to 2 million now or something like 1.8 or something? Look up

Jennifer Smith, CDE 6:47
this, I think it was about a year ago that I looked, I usually look in January, when more statistical kinds of things

Scott Benner 6:53
might point out. There's a lot more people than that. And so you're already being diagnosed with something that I think would be considered rare, right? I mean, type one diabetes is considered rare, isn't it?

Jennifer Smith, CDE 7:03
I think when you consider the or compare to type two diabetes, type one is the lesser right. Yeah.

Scott Benner 7:12
Well, I mean, I kind of mean, compared to everything else. They're seeing, like more than that, like quacks like a duck situation again, sure, like colds,

Jennifer Smith, CDE 7:20
you're going to have many more colds coming in than a child who comes in or an adult or anybody who comes in with symptoms, then oh, gosh, this must be type one. So yes, it's, it's more you're looking for something that's more frequently seen. Yeah, then looking for something that I guess rare would be the right word in this context to use

Scott Benner 7:41
Mayo Clinic. This year, it's estimated that about 1.2 5 million Americans live with type one diabetes. So you know, I'm just gonna do a real quick how many Americans are there? Yeah, there's 340 million. So that's not a lot. Can if that makes that makes it rare. And so I guess my point is, is that if this is the first time for you, as a doctor seeing this, I can see it getting right past you. What I don't understand is after you've seen it once, or twice, why we don't adjust why you could miss it. Yeah, yeah. Like, let's start like remembering what what happened learn from learn from the past. Because here's something is from a listener, right? I wish our regular pediatrician would have known that it was okay to just do some blood work. So the pediatrician was so scared to just draw blood because they thought it was going to scare the kid sure that they just kept throwing different medications and different things that the kid try this do that. And meanwhile, further and further into DKA. Sure. I think that what to me, what that points out, is that you can't allow yourself to be dismissed. And on the physician side, dismissing people, I think is, is dangerous, like, you know, like it, you have to assume that people know what's going on with them better than you do, even if they're not,

Jennifer Smith, CDE 9:06
even if they can't give you a diagnosis that you can't they can't name a diet diagnosis, right? They know what they've been seeing or feeling or they know that, you know, little Johnny has looked and acted this way for the past eight years, and is no longer doing that, right. Things have changed, doesn't want to play is now wetting the bed again, and wasn't before all of these things. Are there red lights in our world of knowledgeable like diabetes, because we've been living with it. But for the newbie, again, and or the new Doctor Who, like you said, maybe it's somebody who's fresh into their first job, you know, in a pediatric office or in a general practice or whatever. And then it might look rare. Yeah.

Scott Benner 9:53
So yeah, it happens to adults just the same way it happens to kids, by the way, and so there's this balance if you're the physician, and I can See where it would be difficult? I need to listen to what they're saying. But what if what they're saying doesn't make any sense at all? If I said I've been urinating a lot, right? That would be me indicating that I think I'm urinating more than I normally do. Correct. But But if the doctor says, Hey, how much do you urinate? And they tell you a number that seems high to you, but it's not high to them. You have to push back and say, That doesn't seem right. We should look into that. Like there's a balancing act within every question. Dexcom g7 offers an easier way to manage diabetes without finger sticks. It is a simple CGM system that delivers real time glucose numbers to your smartphone, your smartwatch. And it effortlessly allows you to see your glucose levels and where they're headed. My daughter is wearing a Dexcom g7 Right now, and I can't recommend it enough. Whether you have commercial insurance, Medicare coverage, or no CGM coverage at all Dexcom can help you go to my link dexcom.com/juicebox. And look for that button that says Get a free benefits check. That'll get you going with Dexcom. When you're there, check out the Dexcom clarity app, where the follow Did you know that people can follow your Dexcom up to 10 people can follow you. Right now I'm following my daughter, but my wife is also following her. Her roommates at school are following her. So I guess Arden is being followed right now by five people who are concerned for her health and welfare. And you can do the same thing. School Nurses, your neighbor, people in your family, everyone can have access to that information, if you want them to have it. Or if you're an adult, and you don't want anyone to know, you don't have to share with anybody, it's completely up to you. dexcom.com/juice box links in the show notes links at juicebox podcast.com. And when you use my link to learn about Dexcom you're supporting the podcast. Because there's, there's what's going on, there's what the person believes is going on, it's what they don't understand is going on, uh, you know, it's there's a lot happening, and it's your job to dig through it. But the real concern here is emergent, really, if you don't figure it out quickly enough. Now we're DKA. Correct. And that puts you down a different path. Right? You know, like, again, I've spoken to so many people, people who catch something early, where they're just like, I don't know, if something didn't seem right, I went to the doctor, and he was a great doctor, and he figured it out. And I went home and I didn't have to go to the hospital. That whole path changes their life. And I know that's hard to imagine, but it really does.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 12:37
And it makes it I mean, what you're kind of alluding to is a very emergent scary scenario of diagnosis, versus a scenario of, hey, I had these symptoms, it seems kind of weird, I'm feeling kind of off but not like terrible at this point. Again, at that point, your ability to provide a little bit more in depth, searching for them. And in depth asking of what what they feel like has changed. Again, this is where addressing the person as a person, not just as a case to evaluate becomes really important. Because as you said, if you're going to the bathroom a lot, you have to say, this is really a lot for me. Like I don't I don't get up overnight. I don't you know, have to get up in between meetings at work. I you know, all these things are very different from the clinical side, then they have to, they have to remember to take that the step further and say, Well, you know what, I don't know. But we could easily do this test this test in this test. And I think that's where when people say things who are already in the group of people who have diabetes, they say, Well, why didn't they just do? Why didn't they just do this? And you the new person is like, I don't know what to ask for? Clearly, I'm coming to the doctor, they should know what to do for me. Why didn't they do it? Yeah. And, again, that's where from the clinical standpoint, I think, in general, there maybe need to be some guidelines that are changed a bit. That's, you know,

Scott Benner 14:11
I don't know what that's supposed to be. But I think that from practice, to practice and doctor to doctor, you should be able to figure it out on your own. You know, like, have a meeting, sit down and say, hey, the last couple of times we've diagnosed a person with type one, it's not gone well, and here's why and right, you know, what could we have done? So many people get sent home with insulin, and told to go find an endocrinologist. But now they have this insulin, they don't know how to use it. And it's, they're scared of it. And then the doctor will say something like, you know, listen, high blood sugars are the leading cause of blah, blah, blah. So now you're you've just been diagnosed with something, someone who says something very scary to you. Then they've given you insulin. If you're lucky. They've told you the insulin is dangerous. Some of them don't do that. I don't know if it's because they don't know or they don't want to scare You, but now you've given them these competing problems. Insulin makes your blood sugar low, and could kill you right now. And high blood sugar is gonna kill you later. And then you get sent home with that paradox. And what are you supposed to do with that with no knowledge? It's, you know, it's, if you're doing that to somebody, that's terrible. And it happens, every single I think it happens every hour of every day, from the people I talked to. And this woman asks me, how did my general practitioner not see how upsetting it was to tell me for 15 minutes? How bad high blood sugars are for me, and then they handed me insulin and said, keep your blood sugar high until you can see an endo. Right? Yeah, right. I mean, what, what is she supposed to do with that? Exactly, except go home and be out of her mind word.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 15:49
Right? Yeah. And Or try to. And hopefully, the goal is with a diagnosis that you do get a new, essentially, kind of introduction, kind of a nice handoff, if you will, to the knowledgeable clinician, who will be your next go to in the dive into the education. But, again, a very good baseline of each and every practitioner, who is just a general medicine practitioner, should have the same guideline of if these symptoms, you know, are presented to you. And I mean, the symptoms aren't weird symptoms, no peeing a lot, you're losing weight, you can't get enough to drink. I mean, those I mean, as classic symptoms, the grand majority of people who come in complaining of something, those are going to be the top three, I think, classic symptoms. So you would think that in learning about all the different types of disorders or you know, diseases in the body in general school, you would think that he would remember some of that and be like, Oh, well, an easy thing that we could do is, we could do you know, a urinalysis, you can look for glucose, we could look for all these things, we can look for ketones, we could also do a finger stick. Those are some pretty simple things that should be I think, on a broader scale of this, they should be something that is done when you present with symptoms that could possibly be diabetes. And if you

Scott Benner 17:28
don't, if I think is a regular practitioner, if you if you're not aware of this, could you not reach out to a local organization, hospital endocrinologist and say, Look, we'd like to have, you know, a checklist for ourselves. Yes, could you help us put that together, and we'd like to have something to send people home with because we know it can be difficult to get an end dose appointment, like just some learning materials that they could go home with or a link that we could actually, it makes more sense than handing them a learning material, you should hand them a link, you know, whatever your practice name is slash type one, and that you could actually keep updated and you know, turn it into a resource for them and explain the questions that they're obviously going to have in the beginning. Because all this all this does, by the way, is you send people to the internet, and then it's luck of the draw if they find good or bad information, correct. And then you yell at them later for getting their information from the internet so you don't help them they go to the internet, then you tell them you know you're not a doctor. You shouldn't be on that line. Well who was going to help me if you take insulin or sulfonylureas you are at risk for your blood sugar going too low. You need a safety net when it matters most. Be ready with G voc hypo pen. My daughter carries G voc hypo pen everywhere she goes because it's a ready to use rescue pen for treating very low blood sugar and people with diabetes ages two and above that I trust. Low blood sugar emergencies can happen unexpectedly and they demand quick action. Luckily, G vo Capo pen can be administered in two simple steps even by yourself in certain situations. Show those around you where you store G vo Capo pen and how to use it. They need to know how to use G vo Capo pen before an emergency situation happens. Learn more about why G vo Capo pen is in Ardens diabetes toolkit at G voc glucagon.com/juicebox. G voc shouldn't be used if you have a tumor in the gland on the top of your kidneys caught a pheochromocytoma. Or if you have a tumor in your pancreas called an insulinoma visit G voc glucagon.com/risk For safety information.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 19:42
You sent me home with this information about and or maybe they even as especially as an adult maybe got sent home without any insulin right because the doctor wasn't sure. And while the test results were more conclusive towards this being diabetic. Eat is the idea that they could get in the next day with someone who could educate them. And give them a little bit more. I mean, I've seen so many different diagnosis stories go so many different ways. Yeah,

Scott Benner 20:14
no, but isn't there, there has to be a fairly centralized way to keep most people from being in a bad situation, we're not going to stop everybody from having a problem, right? But it can't be that crazy of a problem. I feel like if I put you in I and a couple of other people in a room for four hours, we could come up with that list, and a way to implement it, it just it. But I can't do that for you. And if we sat here and did it, by the way, you wouldn't listen to it, you'd be like I heard on a podcast ridiculous. But you know, you have to go do that yourself. Because, again, the problem you're not seeing as the practitioner is the thing that only people like Jenny and I and people have lived through it can see that there are these multitude of paths that you can lead people down. And I'm not kidding, you can destroy their lives, like psychologically, medically, with their relationships with their, like their mental health, it's not an overblown thing to say that what happens to them in the beginning, goes a long way into how they live their life after that, and you're, you're the ground zero for this, you know,

Jennifer Smith, CDE 21:21
depending on who they get connected with, after their visit with you, after their diagnosis with you. It could completely turn around if they find somebody who is really good in is a great educator or has a great, you know, diabetes practice, and they get in sooner than later to clear up. I don't want to say it's misinformation, I think it's misguided information about what to do. And I think, as you said before, the initial diagnosis in a general practice is going to be to some degree, it seems often to be fear based. Right? It's, well, this is your diagnosis, this is what we've figured out. These are why you're having these symptoms, and you're going to have to start injecting insulin, and insulin is going to do this. And if you don't take it, your blood sugars are going to be high, like you said, or if you do take it, you have to be concerned that you don't take too much, or you're going to end up with low blood sugars. And they may or may not tell you about symptoms, honestly, yeah. Right. They may or may not tell you what you might feel like when that happens. There's a cascade effect from that initial diagnosis. And you can send somebody home in just a whirl of,

Scott Benner 22:42
there's a difference between throwing me in a giant, never ending warehouse with no lights on and telling me the answers in here somewhere. And giving me a flashlight. Like, I'm not telling you, you have to show me exactly where it is. I'm saying, you know, say the rest of the sentence, which is a phrase, I think about all the time, like don't just say, hey, low blood sugars are dangerous, like keep talking, complete it, why are they dangerous? In what scenarios might I find myself in this situation. And if you as the practitioner, don't know the answers to the rest of the sentence, you need to educate yourself. Because that's just you don't know enough to give this information to somebody, you know, you were just talking about, like a low blood sugar. And I think about all the time, how many people are probably told, for instance, chickens free, like there's no carbs in it chickens free, right? But protein gets broken down it gets, it gets stored as glucose that can make your blood sugar rise, sometimes 90 minutes after your meal. In the beginning, these people are probably honeymooning, it's probably not that much of an impact. It's possible that you don't have their insulin right. And so you're not noticing it because their Basal is too strong or something like that. Or by the way, you don't have their insulin too strong. You have a two week and they're seeing these weird spikes all over the place. And then you start turning knobs, you don't know what the hell you're doing. And that right there. That's it. That's the beginning of the end. Like once you start chasing blood sugars around it, you don't know why the variables do what they do. When that happens, you are on an hour, day, week, month, year, lifetime long struggle. And that's it

Jennifer Smith, CDE 24:22
from the practitioner standpoint. If that's the road of navigation that you're leading people with, they will be the ones who are always tied to coming in and asking you to make the adjustments. Right. And if you don't know as you said, if you don't know the knobs to turn or which one to turn to impact what you see happening, nor do you likely know how to interpret the data. That should teach you how to turn the knobs one way or another. Then they are there seeing your adjustments. One way or or another, and those adjustments are likely not teaching them the right things to do when they go home. Because while their visits with you might be every three months, four months, every six months or whatnot, in between that person at home has diabetes every second of every single day. And they need to know how to turn the knobs. So if you're turning them one way, and adjusting in a way, that's not good for them to learn, then it's gonna get more fuddled up in between, as they think that they will, I can adjust it that that I saw the doctor do this, yeah, I should try to adjust it this way. Or I saw the doctor do this or told me to that it looks like this is what we need to do. So in between those visits, where they may not be connecting with you via you know, electronic record or even via phone, they may try, I will tell you firsthand that people with diabetes, want to try to navigate? Well, they want to try to do the best. And if the best is the knowledge that you've given them, and it may not be 100%. Correct, then you can expect their management to be I

Scott Benner 26:18
mean, in honesty, kind of your whole like career is getting people after they've been funneled up, which I've never heard, but let's just keep going. I like that. I love it. I'm going with I'm using it again. And so you see this every day? And and be honest, how busy are you? I am very busy. If there were 10 of you, would you still be this busy?

Jennifer Smith, CDE 26:40
If there were 10 of me, I would still be this busy. I mean, our office has a number of clinicians who all have the knowledge base that I do. And we are all very busy. So

Scott Benner 26:51
yeah, my point is, is that too many people get put on the wrong path. Correct. And the people who are reaching you or are, you know, more upwardly mobile people that can that can afford this, like, can even afford the time to sit down and think I don't know what I'm doing. I gotta go find somebody who knows what I'm doing. You know, I gotta not worry if it's an insurance thing. Now I'm I know I'm in I'm in real trouble. Everyone's in that situation. The minute they're diagnosed with diabetes? Yes, they just are. I don't know how often I say it. I was so bad at taking care of my daughter. In the beginning. I didn't know what I was doing. All I had and we went to a and I hate saying this. But we went to a prominent Children's Hospital in the East Coast, that I think most people would say this is amazing. And again, it was it was 18. I don't know how long it was, like 15 years ago, I guess. But it was before all this technology and everything. But it doesn't seem to matter now, because the technology is here. And still nobody tells anybody how to use anything. Right? And I can't tell if it's because you don't know, where you don't want to be involved. Like, like, I can't figure out what it is like, is it liability? Or is it you just don't understand.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 28:01
So what was it from your, from your perspective of diagnosis again, being years ago? And yes, things are very, they're very different technology wise right now. But when Arden was diagnosed, what was the difference between that initial diagnostic information that you are given? And how soon after, were you handed off to a team that up to the level of understanding so that you felt like you could take her home and at least have an idea?

Scott Benner 28:32
I mean, keeping in mind that Arden was two and right? We were young girls. I mean we were given syringes and insulin vials and a freestyle meter and test strips. And they taught us how to do the math for insulin to carb ratio for MDI. And that was it.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 28:54
And that was with though a specialist right, that was with a peds Endo? Yeah, we

Scott Benner 28:59
were on vacation. And we were lucky enough to find a children's hospital on vacation that had a dedicated peds, endo diabetes wing, like a real another great place that as far as you know, people would say, I didn't know what I was doing at all. Like, like not at all. I mean, I think Arden had a seizure in the first six months, because we counted the carbs and gave her the insulin. And it was a slower, it was a slower digesting, like like food. So the blood sugar the the insulin meter really low. There was an initial spike, but the initial spike went away. It was like simple sugar and then I'll hit later with a with a different glycemic impact. And she, you know, we got her out of it with glucose gel, but looking back on the person I was then I did not know what happened. Right? I had no idea what happened. I thought, Oh, my daughter's gonna have seizures all her whole life. Like this is the way that it goes. This is what this is right? and you go to the doctor doesn't say anything. No, listen, I'm just going to be honest with you. I have figured this out myself, right? That's why the podcast is so colloquial a blue collar or like simplistic, because I don't have any big words for the things I learned. Like no one told me about, like, no one ever said glycemic index to me. And if they did, I was like, that seems like too much. And I didn't listen. Right? Like, it's like, that's a lot of words. What I need you to tell me is that some foods hit harder than other foods and some foods that quicker than other foods like that, I would have been able to wrap my head around, right? Yeah, honestly, it was depressing, and scary, and overwhelming. And I started to write a blog about it. And I got to the point where I thought, Oh, I'm just writing what everyone else is writing. And so because there were a lot of diabetes blogs back in the day, like 1000s of them, and I thought, I'm wasting my time saying what everybody else is saying. And then I thought, I'm just going to, like, dig deeper into this. And I started off by asking, Arden CDE, I know I've said this before, but here I asked her, I said, if I give you a magic wand, what would you make people with diabetes do if you can make them do one thing. And she said, I'd make them not be afraid of insulin. And at the time, I didn't think what I'm thinking now, which is, oh, well, you probably should have explained it to them then. And maybe they wouldn't be so afraid of it. But I took her thought that she sees a lot of people afraid of insulin. And I just started doing the work on that. And I dug through that made myself not afraid of insulin, it took me a year of like writing about it and talking to people about it and having conversations with people. And then I think the next thing that happened was Dexcom became available. And that opened up my understanding of what was happening. And then I was able to sort of apply my feelings, that information. And then we started having good experiences. And I'm like, Oh, this worked. And then I just started chasing things that worked. Yeah. And then you'd go back to the doctor, and her agency would be coming down. And they'd say, What are you doing? Is she having a lot of lows? And I'm like, wait, what, that's when I realized they expected her a one C to be eight. And that it was now seven, going into the sixes. They thought I was crashing her blood sugar all over the place, because they can't even imagine that someone could manage a blood sugar in the sexes. Sure. That was 15 years ago, right? You know, like so. And I understand how old thoughts impact now. But now it's not then anymore,

Jennifer Smith, CDE 32:37
right? Because we have the amount of technology that we have, right? We should aim for better. And we should teach, we should be able to teach people that better is possible in a safe way, right? And we're not aiming for blood sugars to sit at 60 all the time, just to enable a blood sugar and an average that looks you know, like you're in the range of those without diabetes. I think you're right about the old school thought still really being a piece of it. I mean, if you being who you are now, and looking back on who you were without the knowledge level that you had,

Scott Benner 33:17
what did I need? Right? What

Jennifer Smith, CDE 33:20
did you need? What did the doctors like? If I Was Your clinician? At that point? What would you have been like, Hey, I don't get this, or what should I have told you that would have made you I mean, and also what if you hadn't been on vacation? Great that you had access to a facility that actually had good people who were trying to give you more information? But what if not, I mean, what if you would have just been sent home with? Right? Yeah.

Scott Benner 33:47
Oh, please, I don't know that I would have been that much different. Also, the internet wasn't really a thing, then. No, the way it is now. We have the ability to communicate better now. True, and to get information to people quickly, digest doubly. I mean, listen, if they handed it was that pink panther book? Is that what that was? I

Jennifer Smith, CDE 34:05
have one, I still have mine. Sure. I

Scott Benner 34:07
think we just think we just are hours away. So I get if I'm a doctor, I hand somebody this big book. My first thought is they're not going to read this. And you know, like so then you can easily write them off. Well, they don't want to take responsibility for their care. I mean, come on, no one wants to read that stupid book. Like it. Just it. I get that that's what there was back then. But it's not like that now, and we still treat people like it is like that's the thing I never understand.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 34:36
And I think there's something important in there to remember, if you are the clinician, what, what you say? And even just the base diagnosis, you have type one diabetes, right? The good majority of people as I hear so many times when I talk to somebody who's new, is right away upon diagnosis. The caregiver or they themselves are online right away. What is this? What's type one diabetes, and you're brought into this gigantic room of information with so many different files that you could pull to get the information from. So as as the clinical person diagnosing, I think it's really important to provide some good guidelines of the right places for education, because people will search online. Dr. Google is

Scott Benner 35:33
Yeah, so really how it works. Now, also, I will tell you this. I've given a lot of thought to this. You can't dumb things down. No, you can communicate them in a way that a lot of people can understand. But you can't dumb things down. Everyone deserves the knowledge. Right? Correct. You shouldn't assess someone because if you would have assessed me on the first day, I was crying in Arden's room, while they were trying to teach me how to do the math for her insulin to carb ratio. Like I was like, it hit me all at once. Oh, I'm a stay at home dad. My wife is gonna go back to work this two year old kid. Oh, my God, this is me. I'm in charge. Overwhelming, right? Yeah. So I cried. The nurse left because Kelly said, I think maybe he needs a minute. They never came back and tried to teach it to me again. I guarantee you, they wrote me off. They're like, alright, that one doesn't get it. It was probably that simple. You can't write people off, you have to give them the information enough that at least it sparks their mind later when they aren't crying. And they can think a little bit that this person here says I wish they didn't dumb things down. I need support, you should show me where there's community around this. I'd like a brief explanation of type one diabetes, it was very overwhelming. It sent me home to watch video after video and I got drugged down a rabbit hole. Right? I needed Quickstart information. That I think is the big deal. Right? I wish they would have told us. So there's this phrase that gets used in the podcast? I don't know if I say it as much anymore. But I refer to what a lot of doctors do is they give you don't die advice. It's enough. You know what I mean? Yeah, it's enough that you won't die, but you're not necessarily going to live healthy with it. Right.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 37:09
And that's more general to it is it's more, I'm going to send you home with this. It is it's it's don't die advice. It's take this do this at this time, and then connect with this person, because they're going to they're going to dig into this for you. But again, when that ends up happening, or between that happening, and seeing somebody who can really help you understand. And at a time when you're not crying anymore about this, yeah. In between that time, you're not. You're not sitting at home not looking up information. So what happens between diagnosis and formal education, if we call it that, that educator now has a load of stuff to clean up from wherever that person went home and looked up information? Which may not be correct, right?

Scott Benner 38:00
I can tell you Look, I know at this point, everybody's pretty like internet savvy at this point. So I think doctors can understand this next point. My Facebook group adds 150 new people. Do you know how long it takes to put 150 new people in the group? A couple of days, four days? Yeah. Every day. It's a three. But you heard in 50 new people show up. I have my 10,000 hours that watching them. Okay, I know the storm that they're living in, right. And they are so confused. And by now they've been online, they have absolutely found somebody who's telling them don't eat a carbohydrate ever. There's absolutely they found somebody that tells them that insulin is bad for them. They've absolutely found somebody that told them that they can reverse this whole thing. This is the myriad of different information they're getting over and over and over again. I see this happening. Please listen to me. Not once in a while. All the constantly. So you're sending people out into the world. Like, look, not even everyone's going to agree this podcast is valuable. Right now I see how it helps people and at the at the scope and scale that it does. So I know. But you can't even get everyone to agree about that. So they're out in the world looking for what ever has a good like, return like when they Google something. And now they've got 16 different perspectives. They are twisting in the wind at this point. They're scared they think they're going to kill themselves. They think they're going to kill their kid. And I want to read with this woman said she I wish they told us more than don't die advice. That advice that we got a diagnosis from them. We haven't gotten any new information since that quick class we had at the hospital discharge. I've never had any advice about improving time and range. Nothing about Pre-Bolus Sing no one has ever mentioned Pre-Bolus seem to me nothing about how fat and protein affect blood sugar, no guidance on how to exercise or play sports. No guidance on how to adjust insulin to carb ratios, how to adjust long acting insulin. Honestly, I am fairly sure that this don't die plan is the standard of care. And this is forever how they want it to be. And

Jennifer Smith, CDE 40:10
the unfortunate thing about that is what this person is getting to is the in depth what should be being covered in education, This by no means should be coming from a primary care, right? It should not because they don't, there's not a bandwidth there for it at all, unless you found a general practitioner, you know, who is a specialty in diabetes? And then many times it's even just a specialty in type two management, likely not type one. But

Scott Benner 40:39
yeah, but my point is, this is what happened to her. Correct, right. So she went to the hospital even and didn't get anything. This is your responsibility, if you're the doctor like this lady situation, is because of the lack of guidance that she got at the beginning. That's it. So you can say, Oh, this is her endos problem, or the hospital failed her. You can say whatever you want. This is still who she is now. So you know, and she's raising a child with diabetes, that kid is going to his? Well, by the way, nothing bad's gonna happen to this kid, because he found a podcast, like his Mommy found a podcast. So now she understands all these things. But you could. I don't want to out myself here, Jenny. The podcast isn't really that in depth. Like it's it's understanding how to use insulin, understanding the impacts of foods. That's it. Right? You could explain that to somebody, listen, I can explain it to them. Use, you must be smarter than me, you're a doctor, you absolutely could do it. I trust me, I couldn't even barely graduate from high school. So like, I know, you can do this, I figured it out. I figured that out. Because I had to. You need to put yourself in a situation where you feel like you have to, like I have to learn how to talk to these people about these things. Because if I don't, here's what happens next.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 42:01
And especially because you've decided to specialize, you've decided to specialize in something that does encompass diabetes, unless you really are only a thyroid endocrinologist, you're really only a hormone based right then great, you're probably not even taking patients who have diabetes, right? But if you have gone that route, then you're 100% Correct. These are the pieces that should be being discussed. And there should be there should be, I guess, some things that are asked of each person with diabetes in terms of their understanding that then you can dig in with them and say, Okay, well, we need to start here, you want to get here. Let's start here, so that I can get you to playing three hours of soccer on a Saturday, right? The way that you want. I

Scott Benner 42:51
mean, I'll take it further. If you're a GP, type two diabetes is everywhere. You don't when an adult is diagnosed, please, this person asks, please check them for anybody's before telling them they have type two diabetes, you have any idea how many type ones you're sending home on Metformin. And they're not dying through good luck, because they're still in their honeymoon yet, and we're getting very sick because you're like, oh, diabetes, that can't be that's type two, cuz you're fat, or cuz you're old, or whatever the health thing you think that isn't accurate? And, you know, type ones, have this happens to them constantly. Go pick through the podcast, find people living with that with type one diabetes, for years, on the brink of death. And it's because somebody told him they had type two never checked, or who have

Jennifer Smith, CDE 43:39
literally done every single one of the lifestyle changes that you've told them to do. Type Two often gets, you know, I'm gonna give you this medication and oral medication. Let's say you mentioned Metformin. Sure, it might be Metformin, then you're, let's try to get some exercise every day. And let's try to watch what you're eating. Some people will especially again, with the information now online, they will take that to the level of they're now eating lettuce and their blood sugar on you know, they're doing their finger sticks. And it might still be 200 or 300. In the thinking, I can't eat less. I can't walk anymore. My dog doesn't want to walk with me because I walk him eight times a day, right? I mean, and then they go back and they say, I'm doing what you asked me to do. And it's not, it's not better. So at that point, you look and you say, Well, gosh, maybe we should do some testing.

Scott Benner 44:37
And if you think Jenny's just making that up as an example out of her head, I've been told that story 50 times. It's incredibly common. This person here says please do not let patients leave your office with insulin and zero education regarding lows Because managing lows without causing fear is really important and it requires a playbook like you don't Just get to do it on like, oh, 15 carbs, 15 minutes. Like, if you're still saying that shame on you, first of all, here's what I think there are, however many people being diagnosed today with type one or type two diabetes, even I mean, we can lump them together to be perfectly honest with you. Each one of those people, if you don't help them has to learn it all by themselves, millions of people having to learn this thing that if you just learned, you could explain to them, right.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 45:26
And if you come back at them, and you say they bring you some results, they bring you some information. And they say, Well, I went online, and I looked up this information, and now look what I've achieved. And then the turnaround ends up being where did you get that information? You got it online? Or what kind of, you know, they're not looking at even what the person actually achieved? They're just looking at the fact that well, this person got it out of like, you know, the back end of somebody's blog about something, something diabetes related. And this person has no information about where that information came from. So they blame you, instead of just saying, Well, gosh, where did you get this? And this looks like you're really what what has made the difference? Because you know what, you as a clinician, you might actually learn something.

Scott Benner 46:13
This by the way, you don't know because you all don't know Jenny as well, as I do in public. This is as angry as Jenny gets, but she's mad. I'll just be mad for her. Yeah, I'll be mad for her. They just made me laugh. They're so mad.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 46:30
Because my my angry doesn't. I don't know that you've ever seen. I tell my kids when I'm angry about something. I'm like, you don't want the dragon lady. And then they're like, Okay, Mom, you're right, we don't

Scott Benner 46:41
make your point one more time very succinctly in one sentence. My

Jennifer Smith, CDE 46:45
point is to take the success of somebody that has come to you and look at where and what they've done. Don't just blame them for getting their information from someplace else. You didn't supply it, they went looking, yep, they have found some success. Help them keep that going.

Scott Benner 47:08
Right. And the reason why that creates anger in genuine in me as well as because I get those people's emails. And those people come to me to tell me, I listened to the podcast, I got my time and range down, my agency started to fall, I was so excited. And then I went to the doctor, they yelled at me for 15 minutes and changed all my settings so that my blood sugars would be higher. And these are not people who walked in there with like 70 blood sugars all day long. And they were walking all precipice between life and death. Like it wasn't it's not that it's just they learned how to Bolus for their food. Right? And then they they understood, I don't know, like simple things that you could understand, too. I mean, you're a freaking doctor, like, learn it or, or leave them alone. Like, you know what I mean? Like, if they're doing well, don't get in their way, for God's sakes, you've gotten in their way twice already now. Like, like, you can do it again, you know, or

Jennifer Smith, CDE 48:00
with their success, say, Well, what are we working on next? And your your job as the person that they're coming to, to share this really awesome, exciting success with is great. How can we move on? Or hey, ask, what did you get this information from? Yeah, maybe I should take a listen. Maybe I should, you know, check into the clinician that you talked with outside of my practice, or whatever, so that you now have more to work with other people who are going to come in, you could get them started in a really good place to begin with.

Scott Benner 48:36
It occurs to me that you have to put your ego aside in that moment. Yeah. And just want to you need to want better for them. Because what's gonna happen next, when someone tells you, I don't know, I listen to this guy. He's got a podcast. Sometimes there's this lady that comes on, she seems like she's from Canada, I can't tell whether accent and like, you know, like, and now they were talking about this thing. Because Jenny, you and I think that people hear every word and remember it like the Torah, which is not how it works, right? Like we have these conversations, and they pick things out of them. Correct. You might have to go listen to that conversation to and trust me, if you feel like well, I'm a doctor, I don't need to do that, then you're never going to help those people. Then I'm telling you that I've spoken to them over and over and over again. So as Jenny, and they are all they're struggling significantly in their lives, and you're not helping them. So

Jennifer Smith, CDE 49:28
and I think that from a clinical perspective, too, you have to you have to find a comfort level and working as a team. I mean, there's a saying that's been there forever, right? It takes a village to raise a child, right? It takes a really significant good care team to navigate managing life with diabetes. A lot of the people that come in to our practice, you know that work with me or one of the other clinicians in the practice. We are very happy in fact When there are other clinical participants in that, you know, some people come to us and they're like, We have a phenomenal endocrine team. We love them. But this is the piece that I'm missing. And they haven't gotten as in depth about it, as I think that you can, can you help me with this? Can you help me understand, but I'm getting this, this and this from my tear team. So I don't need that from you. Fantastic. From a clinical perspective, you have to be able to say, You know what, I don't know everything, because I'm very happy myself to say, you know, what, I don't know anything, everything. If there's somebody that comes to us and is like, hey, I want to work with Jenny. And I'm like, that's not my wheelhouse, though, you would be much better working with this person. That's the same approach that I have with other clinicians. I'm like, You know what, you take care of this, and I've got this.

Scott Benner 50:50
So I had to make this leap. I'm just gonna be completely honest. I know. I've always known that community around diabetes was important. I never knew exactly how important it was. I heard other people say that it was important. One day, I got so much pressure from listeners to the podcast about making a Facebook group that I just did it. And I want you to know, it was not a thing I was excited about at the time. I thought, Oh, God, I'm gonna have to moderate a Facebook group. I pull Jesus, that sounds terrible. But here I am. They asked for it. I did it right. Now, that's, I think three years ago, now, maybe a little less. There are now over 42,000 people in the Facebook group. In the beginning, I it was me going, that sounds like this. Show me your graph, I think. I think that like, you know, because doctors frequently mess things up. Even graph reading. Here's the thing you guys do all the time, people come in with a low, and you take away their Basal. Like that somehow is the fix for a low blood sugar instead of looking and saying, Hey, you had a meal here, right? And then you spiked up and crashed down? When did you give yourself the insulin. And if you by the way, if I'm now talking, and you don't understand what I'm saying, You have no chance of helping people with diabetes, okay? Because where you time that meal, insulin stops that spike from happening. And more importantly, it uses up the meal insulin to combat the carbohydrates. So the meal insulins not leftover to cause a low later, if you don't know that you are doing people a disservice. So anyway, I used to have to go through over and over and over again, like I said, I learned once like so I could tell other people. At some point, I thought I can't do this. Like I cannot keep up with us. And then I realized I didn't have to. Because so many other people heard me say it. They were helping other people. And before I knew it, I was watching people respond thinking, holy, they're using my words, like they're talking to that person the way I spoke to them. It's a beautiful moment, a beautiful moment, when you see that you you put something out into the world. And it's it's being redistributed by other people. So I understand if you're the doctor, you can't say these things a million times a day, there's not even enough time. But you can't just make that be the the end of it. Like you have to find a place to send them off to I'm not saying your doctor's office should start a Facebook group because the truth is mine only accomplished this level of proficiency for people because it's so big and far reaching. Because when someone asks a question, there's at least three or four or five people in there to answer,

Jennifer Smith, CDE 53:37
you know, and what do you have backing it up? There are episodes backing it up, to be able to point people to for a broader understanding or like you said, maybe some people take one snippet out of one whole episode. And that's what really made the difference for them. And in that same episode, there might be one or two other snippets that really hit or resonate with another person. They're both improving, but because they heard the information that they needed, right about the same topic.

Scott Benner 54:08
Yeah. So what Jenny's kind of alluding to in the first part there is that if someone asks a specific question, at some point, I have moderators or I will jump in and say, here's a link to an episode you should listen to to get more information about this. Now you think, Oh, I'm only helping one person. You're helping everybody who read that thread. And it's way more people than likes and hearts would indicate to you. So that's another thing you don't know is that you think oh, only one person asked this question and only five people got attracted to answering it. This is a six person situation. Now what you can see is that this thing's been through 1000s and 1000s of people's like feeds and they're taking time to look at it, which means a lot of people have those questions. They're too scared to even ask them out loud, right? So if they won't ask them online, what do you think they're going to do when they get in the doctor's office

Jennifer Smith, CDE 54:54
or they don't know how to ask ask them. They don't exactly quite know what the issue is. They have have maybe like a subconscious level of considering, but they don't know how to voice it. They don't know how to bring it up and they need somebody to sit down. And as you said before that one example of, oh, now you're low, I think what I've seen so many times over and over is that you go into a visit, all prepared as the person with diabetes, you brought in all of your documentation, you brought in all of your logs, and, you know, the printouts from let's say, you're using a continuous monitor, whatever it is. And clinically, you may sit down as, as, you know, the doctor, and you might say, Oh, what happened here? You can you pinpoint one, most often it's lows, or it's the extreme highs, what happened here, and the person with diabetes is honestly thinking, Well, I don't know. I was like, four weeks ago, and I've got three kids, and I truck them all over the sick. I don't know what happened at that point in time as a clinician, it's the bigger picture of a trend. You're not looking to pick apart the data, and picking it apart also makes the person with diabetes feel judged.

Scott Benner 56:09
don't frustrate them and judge them. Like that's correct. What what happened here means What did you do wrong? Right. And by the way, if I knew I would stop doing it, because so like, now you're asking me the question, like you said, bring all these logs in, I did it. It's a pain in the ass. I brought you all this stuff. I handed it to you. And you sit. And instead of telling me, here's an answer, you said, what happened here? Are you kidding me? Like that's your plan. And by the way, if people come in the office and don't ask any questions, do not sit there smugly thinking, Oh, I'm so good at this. They don't have any questions. They don't know how to ask their question. They're embarrassed. They don't want to be judged again, you're an asshole. And you don't realize it, which happens. Sometimes some of you are assholes, and you yell at people and talk down to them, and then they don't come back. And then you think, Oh, they're non compliant. They're not non compliant. They don't want to be near you. Right. You know, like, that happens. I'm not saying everybody. But if you're wondering, does, it happens, you know? Yeah, it's, I

Jennifer Smith, CDE 57:10
mean, from the that standpoint, too, you know, remembering that the person coming into your office is, they're a human, they're a person, they are just like you when you go home, you've got a life right outside of your office, when they come in. The first things should really be more personal questions, you know, how are you doing? How are things going? You know, what are your concerns today? What? What is on your list of what's working really well, please tell me or what's not? What What can I help you with today? Yeah, right, because it opens a door of personal connection. That isn't white coat.

Scott Benner 57:53
This is just very important. And, you know, I watched my mom live with cancer for a couple of years. And the truth is, every day of her life was about that cancer, like a lot of other things get swept under the rug, right? diabetes isn't like that. Like those, these people are not at home, like 24/7, like mired down, like they're trying to continue living, they think they either believe there's a way out of this. And they're looking for it in the time they have available to them, or the situation and the lack of information has beaten them into believing that they get a lesser life than everybody else. And they're just going to push on. Right? And I'm just going to live my lesser life now. That's not true. Right? Like, I just, I mean, take it from me. You can. Jenny, I know you could do this too. And I know you're probably getting low on time. But if you put me in a room for one hour with a person who is newly diagnosed, I can put them on a good path. And then I could speak to them again a couple of times over the next six months, and they'd be okay. Right? If I could do that, and you can do that, then doctors can do that. Yeah. Don't tell me the system's wrong or you don't understand how many people I have to see or the insurance figure out something. Don't just say don't wash your hands up and go Oh, this isn't my fault that this is happening right? You might not be your fault but you're the last year what we have so

Jennifer Smith, CDE 59:18
right trying to get a connection and yeah, yeah,

Scott Benner 59:22
try harder. It would be nice anyway, I didn't expect to get upset but here we go. Thank you for doing this with me here welcome. Any doctor still listening to this episode right now that like those people yelled at me for a while.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 59:34
So well, they you know, I think in in a really big way. It's It's hard because you don't want to call out like as a listener if I was a doctor and I was hearing it I'd feel very like singled out but you have to have a wider view. It's not have to have a wide view and say, you know, but I'm not doing that you have to remember and say but you know what, I learned something. I could do this better. I could pass this on better, I could hand them off like a gentle handoff to another, another practitioner that can get them to help. The other thing I think I wish could be heard here is behind the scenes. What it really calls for is a very specific medical protocol of when you come in, this is the checkoff of what you do flu symptoms. You do a urinalysis, you do a finger stick, that's the protocol, you will do it whether the person is two minutes old, or you're they're 98 years old. This is the protocol that you will do. I think it begs a broader change to our medical system, for sure. It really does. Yeah,

Scott Benner 1:00:42
I mean, hearts and minds is only going to take you so far like the system has to, here's a good example, when the system gets in the way, not overblowing this a half a dozen times a year, I get contacted to come to a facility and explain how I talk to people about diabetes, to hospitals, to doctors offices to big practices, you know how many times I've actually done it? None? Never. Because by the time it goes up the chain, somebody squashes it.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 1:01:08
Somebody says no, yeah. And do you know, do you know why? I know, you know, I'm not a doctor. So they don't want me to have you have no initials behind your name. Right. So my

Scott Benner 1:01:17
point is, is that even? Yeah, and sometimes people get good ideas, and they are motivated, and they want to help people. And then the system squashes that, I understand that, I guess I don't know what to do with that. And that's why I'm hoping that just this conversation leaks into people's minds. So that at least what they have control over. Right, they can maybe make more purposeful decisions with

Jennifer Smith, CDE 1:01:41
Well, I think even if they wanted truly just the educational pieces that you've put together, I think, again, from a protocol standpoint, I mean, my like end all would be that they all just get a little handout pamphlet in every single medical practice that's like, hey, you know what, this is your new diagnosis. If you want the right place to look for information to begin with, because I know you're gonna go on whatever internet doctor visit, you know, a site you're looking at, this is the right place to find this, this and this bit of information. So

Scott Benner 1:02:15
when people come into that Facebook group, they answer a few questions. One of them is Where did you hear about this 40% of them from my doctor. So it is good. I mean, it is getting better, but it's just the ones that slipped through the cracks. I can't I can't state firmly enough, that the ones that slipped through the initial cracks very frequently don't get back out. Like that's, that's the part that I'm upset by. Like, if somebody's got to struggle for six months to figure out the truth. That's, I mean, not preferable, but okay. But like, there are so many people who just never leave or never look again, or they're disoriented or they're, they're overmatched or whatever. They don't have the time all the things we've mentioned, they never get out their whole life like this. So it doesn't need to be that way is my only point. No, I completely agree. Okay, thank you. I appreciate it. Absolutely. Talk to you next time. We'll try to have a more upbeat one next time. Thanks, bye

if you're enjoying the Grand Rounds series, good news, there's much more to come. Don't forget to share it with somebody who you think might also enjoy it. Even a doctor. A huge thank you to one of today's sponsors, G Vogue glucagon, find out more about Chivo Capo pen at G Vogue glucagon.com Ford slash juicebox. You spell that? G VOKEGLUC. Ag o n.com. Forward slash juice box. A huge thanks to Dexcom for supporting the podcast and for sponsoring this episode dexcom.com/juice box go get yourself a Dexcom g7 right now using my link. A huge thanks to a longtime sponsor touched by type one please check them out on Facebook, Instagram, and at touched by type one.org. If you're looking to support an organization that's supporting people with type one diabetes, check out touched by type one. If you're looking for community around type one diabetes, check out the Juicebox Podcast private Facebook group Juicebox Podcast type one diabetes, but everybody is welcome. Type one type two gestational loved ones. It doesn't matter to me. If you're impacted by diabetes, and you're looking for support, comfort or community check out Juicebox Podcast type one diabetes on Facebook. The episode you just heard was professionally edited by wrong way recording. Wrong way record korting.com Thank you so much for listening I'll be back soon with another episode of The Juicebox Podcast.

#1101 Blackjack

Kerry is 47 diagnosed at 21 years old. She was inspired by episode 531 to do an interview and better manage her type 1 diabetes.

+ Click for EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Scott Benner 0:00
Hello friends, welcome to episode 1101 of the Juicebox Podcast.

Today on the show I'm speaking with Carrie she's 47 years old diagnosed at 21. And she's never really had anyone to rely on for managing except for her doctors. Carrie heard Mike on episode 531 and was inspired. And now today, she's here on the Juicebox Podcast sharing her story. Nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise, always consult a physician before making any changes to your health care plan. When you place your first order for ag one with my link, you'll get five free travel packs and a free year supply of vitamin D. Drink ag one.com/juice box. If you're looking for community around type one diabetes, check out the Juicebox Podcast private Facebook group Juicebox Podcast type one diabetes, but everybody is welcome type one type two gestational loved ones. It doesn't matter to me. If you're impacted by diabetes, and you're looking for support, comfort or community check out Juicebox Podcast type one diabetes on Facebook

this episode of The Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by cozy Earth, use the offer code juice box at checkout at cozy earth.com. And you will save 40% off of your entire order. US med is sponsoring this episode of The Juicebox Podcast and we've been getting our diabetes supplies from us med for years. You can as well. Us med.com/juice box or call 888-721-1514 Use the link or the number get your free benefits check it get started today with us med

Kerry 2:16
so I'm Carrie, and events type one diabetic for 21 years now. Wow. I'm ready to get going. Let's go.

Scott Benner 2:25
You want to start talking? Yeah, let's go like it every once in a while. So I was you know, give people a little talk up the people listening to the podcast don't hear it. I'm like, you know, so just introduce yourself anyway. You want to be known, like 20 minutes later there. And then when I was in fourth grade, my God. Like I said, we gotta we know who you are. Thanks. But I like this briefer. Okay, Carrie, you know, that's a name I have trouble pronouncing because of my accent. Yeah, I

Kerry 2:50
get that a lot. So I grew up in the South. And now I live in the Midwest and have most of the folks I work with are in New England. And I'm pretty consistently told that my name is spelled incorrectly for how I say it. So.

Scott Benner 3:07
is it in your heart? Is it carry like care, but with a que? Is it curry like a hard K? Like no, it's

Kerry 3:15
like, I guess, carry? Yeah, I don't know. It's to my name.

Scott Benner 3:22
You've never even thought about it. sounds like to me, it sounds like to me, you're saying care. But with more with a case sound correct? Yes. And if I was going to say if I looked at your name, I'd say curry. Which obviously isn't correct either, because that would be cu RR y. But

Kerry 3:42
it's neither here nor well. It was named after a boy. So that makes it even more concerning. So

Scott Benner 3:46
how can we are how does that happen?

Kerry 3:49
The story that I've been told forever is that my mom thought that her sister in law's boyfriend at the time was very cute. And I think his name happened to be Carrie. So there we are. Yeah, go figure.

Scott Benner 4:06
Is there no dad in the room helping with this decision?

Kerry 4:09
Yeah, I'm not sure. I'm not sure. There was a dad. Yes. But I, you know, I'm gonna say something funny, easygoing, so he just let it fly. Fine.

Scott Benner 4:19
I'll just say something here because no one's ever gonna hear it in my family. My sister in law, once named her dog the same name as one of my nieces. And they never saw anything like, like, my sister in law was like, what? It's a great name. And I'm like, it's, it's her name. Like, you can't name your dog after her. And she's like, I'm not naming it after I just like the name. I'm like, I don't think you're seeing this from everyone's perspective. Right? So in family events, she's, you know, calling for her dog and everyone's like, Oh, yeah, that's right. Her dogs the same as that girl over there. Who had the name by the way for a very long time. And before you named your dog that it was just fast. I don't know. Yeah, that's

Kerry 5:02
uncomfortable. The boyfriend went away before I was before I was here. So yeah, that would have been weird.

Scott Benner 5:09
It wasn't still trying to date your mom. No. Well, it's

Kerry 5:13
her sister Sister. My dad's sister. So yeah, it was

Scott Benner 5:17
weird. Okay. Yeah. Okay, so you've had diabetes for 21 years. How old are you?

Kerry 5:22
I am. Gosh, this isn't very 47. I was diagnosed when I was 21. Sorry, I did the math for you there, Scott. So

Scott Benner 5:30
what happened? Did you like were you doing the math instead of just answering the question?

Kerry 5:34
No, I never know how old I am. It's like always in. Yeah. Oh, 76 is a hard year to like figure out math. So my

Scott Benner 5:43
brother was born in 76. There you go. You just asked me how old my brother was. I could have told you how old you were. Well. I find a kindred spirit with you. I I know I say it a lot. But I never like this year. I've known how old I am for some reason. But in pre in the past three years, I've never been right about my age. I don't I don't know what that is. Okay, so you've had diabetes for 21 years. You were diagnosed when you were you said you said you've had died? You said

Kerry 6:14
no. I was diagnosed when I was 21. So sorry, I messed it up all together.

Scott Benner 6:19
Because I just did the math. I added 21 and 21. And that's 42. So are you 40

Kerry 6:24
between the two of us, Scott, I don't know. We're gonna get through this.

Scott Benner 6:27
I'm gonna be fine. You're coming off like a crackpot. If

Kerry 6:31
you only do Yeah.

Scott Benner 6:34
All right. You know what? I just figured out? What's that? I don't care. So when? What makes you want to come on the

Kerry 6:43
podcast? Honestly, Mike from 531. So so how I got to this appointment with you today is you did a Facebook Live, I don't know six months ago. And Mike happened to be on and he spoke. And as soon as he spoke, it was like, oh my god, it's mine. I'm gonna start crying.

Scott Benner 7:11
Oh, Carrie, why what was so impactful about hearing Mike's voice?

Carrie, should I have joked about your age a little longer? Maybe? Sorry. That was the longest cry pause we've ever had on the podcast. I appreciate if you can shorten that if you need to. No, no, no, you're misunderstanding my perspective. This is good. Don't worry, cry more. It's

Kerry 7:38
good for and, and if you knew me that you'd know that. This is not a thing for me. So, um, so So Mike goes on. And so I immediately once I heard him talk, I reached out in the chat and I was like, Are you? Are you the mic? And he was like, yes. And so we have a little bit of back and forth. And then afterward, I reached out to you. And I was like, you know, just thank you for having that.

Scott Benner 8:08
It's okay. It's sorry. Have your feelings. We'll figure it out. Don't worry. Let me ask you why it's so important. So, you know, so what did happen? What did what what's happened in your life that hearing? Because for people who don't know, Mike's episode, is a lot about his complications of which he has, he has many. And at some point, it sounds weird for me to say it, but at some point, he explains how much the podcast has helped him and even helped slow down or put a stop to some of his progression of some of these problems. And then when you talk to Mike further, you realize that he has other issues coming and he knows it. You heard him on the podcast, is that right? Yep.

Kerry 8:51
So I started listening and fall of 2021 I guess,

Scott Benner 9:00
is that when you were 21 years old? Yeah.

Kerry 9:02
Everything is all 21 Right. So you know pandemic was going on and I've exhausted every true crime pad podcast out there in decided that, you know, maybe I should try to learn something instead of just listening to all this stuff bomb trying to work. So Google that found you. I think the I think I might have started with Episode one listened to a few and then it was like, Alright, let me just like, open this app up and and scroll around, and I saw the after dark and I was like, Well, that sounds cool. So I mean, his episode was probably like the fifth. I mean, definitely less than 10 episodes that I listened to. And, you know, he's talking and it's, it's, it's not too emotional at the beginning, but then he starts digging into it, and I was so mad because I have some of the stuff and nobody even said that it was diabetes. Nobody said, Hey, your do produce contractures is because you're not doing your shit and you're not taking care of yourself. Nobody said, Hey, your frozen shoulder, this is part of that is like, it's all separate doctors, and nobody is saying, nobody's connecting the dots.

Scott Benner 10:29
So you're having a number of issues that Mike reported having. But in your life, no one said, you know, your blood sugars are too high. That's why these things are good. No,

Kerry 10:38
no. So and you know, don't, my my issues are not to that, to his extent. And my dad also has problems with his hands that are very similar. He's never been diagnosed, not a big fan of, you know, hanging up the doctor. He's just kind of dealt with it. So it was just kind of like, well, it's just hereditary. And, you know, here's what we might can do. And so, so it is what it is with that, but and then the frozen shoulder just, you know, I, I thought I had done something to my, like, my rotator cuff or something. And I went to see someone and he looked at me, and he was like, oh, yeah, you're, you know, middle aged white woman, you have frozen shoulder. And I was like, well, thanks. Thanks for the recognition. But you know, but but nobody, nobody connected it. Yeah. And so I mean, it was like, it was a moment for me to hear that episode. And be like, what, you know, what is happening? Like, why is nobody? Why is nobody grabbing me by the shoulders and saying, What are you doing? Because at that point, I mean, I'm early for days, and I've been dealing with this for a long time, you know, and I get through, I've been on a pump for a long time, and, you know, not doing great, but just kind of floating around, bouncing off the bottom, you know, and the doctor, you know, in their defense, I guess I don't give them what they need. So they can't give me what I need. But you know, now that I'm doing better than no better, they're still not really giving me what might what I need. So I kind of took that back off my shoulders. But

Scott Benner 12:25
let me ask you a couple of questions. Sure. So you've already named the episode unless you do something better than bounce off the bottom, that was pretty good bouncing off the bottom. But how would you characterize your understanding of what your care should be like, versus what your care was, like, like, what I should be getting from the doctor, no, for you for our

Kerry 12:46
cover me out. CO so and this is, this is tough, too. Because there's, there's a lot that plays into it. But I, I would go through waves, you know, kind of, I'm going to want to grab this by the balls, you know, I'm going to I'm going to do everything I'm supposed to do, I'm going to do everything they tell me to do. And I'm going to be better and leave the office or, you know, try to start. And it's like, I only had half the information for so long. Like, here's your carb ratio, put it in, you know, for a long time, there was no talk of even Pre-Bolus thing. But the outcomes were just terrible. Like, nothing worked. Like I could do everything that I was told to do for weeks and months. And, you know, I'd have terrible lows. I'd be too high. You know, there was no rhyme or reason to it. Yeah, you know, that I could see. And no help really, you know, you go in, you hand them your pump. And they'd be like, Oh, maybe we should tweak this. But you know, I'm giving them Bush numbers, you know, what are they going to do?

Scott Benner 14:01
So you will, you're lying to them. And they they probably weren't going to be helpful, even if you're giving them the good, the good information. But tell me a little bit about the cycle out what to know about the psychology of, of lying to the doctor about things,

Kerry 14:17
you know, it goes back to, you know, first few years of diagnosis where you're taking in paper logs, and you know, it looks horrible, because I might have been, I might even though I might have been testing. I wasn't writing down and you know, the meters sucked at that point. So you couldn't even like go back in your meter. And then if you did, it was like, Oh, I don't want to tell her I hit 340 that day. So I'll just forget my meter in the car and take my forge half assed paper logs and then share that and see what happens.

Scott Benner 14:50
So so you're getting the 340 but the doctor thinks it's I don't know. What was the good what was the good lie? Was it 200 MB

Kerry 14:59
In Yeah, it wasn't anything crazy, I think, you know, the lowest number I was writing down would be, you know, 131 40.

Scott Benner 15:08
But then you ask for help, and then they, they can't base it off of anything.

Kerry 15:14
Let's be honest, I didn't really ask for help was like, just give me my prescriptions. I mean, I got to where it was like this, you know the words you hate everybody to say this is just diabetes, what is yeah, I'm gonna I'm going to do what I do you know, when you when you're going to pee and you look at the color of your PD to see if you need the Bolus is like probably not a good indicator of what needs to happen. So, especially now that I know that it really doesn't matter.

Scott Benner 15:43
A lot of times I wasn't helping either. No, no,

Kerry 15:47
but and you know, I wasn't doing terrible. I mean, the last, I would say 10 to 15 years I've been writing in anywhere from seven to eight, before I before I found you so you know not 1112 Yeah,

Scott Benner 16:05
right, but also not an accurate number either, right? Because were You were you low a lot and then high a lot. diabetes comes with a lot of things to remember. So it's nice when someone takes something off of your plate. US med has done that for us. When it's time for art and supplies to be refreshed. We get an email rolls up in your inbox says hi Arden. This is your friendly reorder email from us med. You open up the email. It's a big button that says click here to reorder. And you're done. Finally, somebody's taking away a responsibility instead of adding one. US med has done that for us. An email arrives, we click on a link and the next thing you know your products are at the front door. That simple. Us med.com/juice box or call 888-721-1514 I never have to wonder if Arden has enough supplies. I click on one link. I open up a box. I put the stuff in the drawer. And we're done. US med carries everything from insulin pumps, and diabetes testing supplies to the latest CGM like the libre three, and the ducks comm G seven, they accept Medicare nationwide, over 800 private insurers. And all you have to do to get started is called 888721514. Or go to my link us med.com/juicebox. Using that number or my link helps to support the production of the Juicebox Podcast.

Kerry 17:36
My lows are pretty few and far between for a long time, actually last couple years way more lows as I tried to try to get tighter and tighter control but but yeah,

Scott Benner 17:46
so you think it was pretty accurately a seven or eight a one say you were high? Steadily high.

Kerry 17:52
So I think for years, it was more common for me during the during the day at least to be 150 to 220 to 30 ish. I feel like when I was testing in the mornings, so my my testing routine had gotten pretty pretty dialed in and that I tested in the in the morning when I woke up and then may or may not test when I got home from work and then would would pretty much always test before bed just to make sure where I was but that was it.

Scott Benner 18:26
Yeah. Were you covering meals most of the time? Okay. Yo, did you always take your Basal? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Can you Ferny? Do you have any meaningful understanding of why you weren't more focused on it?

Kerry 18:42
I've tried to go through this in my head for the last couple of years, like how did I get to where I was mentally. So I have a daughter who's who's eight, who's now 18 and been married to my husband for 23 years that math is easy.

Scott Benner 19:01
Painful years are easy to count.

Kerry 19:04
No, 2000 is easy. So he's older than I am. And you know, for a long time I made the bad joke about, you know, you're going to be you're going to be deaf, I'm going to be blind and in a wheelchair, we're going to be great together as we as we age together. And it's kinda like, it's sounds really, really horrible to say, but I kinda like just made the decision that, you know, I'm just going to catch up to him. And we're going to be old and in broke down together at the same time, even though he's 17 years older than I am. Is

Scott Benner 19:44
that just the way you Is that something you use to make yourself feel better about your trajectory?

Kerry 19:50
It's kind of just what I resolved to be like, well, it's gonna be okay, cuz we'll still you know, we'll just I I don't even know, Scott,

Scott Benner 20:01
we'll all go down together is that ability? Go down? Yeah. Yeah. So you didn't have a lot of hope for your ability to manage things. And but did you not understand it? No,

Kerry 20:16
I see that mean, I did. But so a perfect example would be when I tried to, I went on the Medtronic, The Guardian sensor, to try to, you know, figure it out, whatever, but, so, try to be super tight. And all the things that nobody talks about, like, I never didn't tell the doctor, hey, on Friday nights, you know, when I come home from work, or you're gonna go to dinner in I usually have a couple beers. If people come over on Saturday, you know, I'm, I have a couple of beers, but like, nobody really explained, ever. What alcohol did so come home, you know, few days into it. First of all, the alarms were that thing where it was a nightmare, and it hurts so bad, but I'm plowing through. And so I have fear has carbs, I Bolus that's not the right thing to do. So really bad. You know, don't even understand why this is happening. Because nobody, you know, I didn't ask, but nobody's really ever said, Hey, listen, you know, don't do this, if you do that kind of. So, you know, I feel like I thought I was doing what everybody was doing. Because that's the other thing is like, still, I don't know, anyone. There's no one in my life. That has type one. No one. No one in my family. No one that I know. So it wasn't even like, I could call up somebody and be like, dude, what is happening? Like, I just,

Scott Benner 22:00
you know, you were just existing in Yeah, in a bubble with Yeah. And you were I'm guessing, somewhere between ashamed and guilty about what you were doing. So you lied to the doctor, the doctor wasn't going to be any help, then you couldn't. There's no way to turn to. And you're alive every day. So you don't you don't really think you're doing poorly. Right? Yeah.

Kerry 22:23
And I don't I don't feel bad. I don't. You know, there are some days and tired but I don't know.

Scott Benner 22:31
This just must be what it is. Yeah. Yeah. So say you live how long like that.

Kerry 22:39
21 years. Everything.

Scott Benner 22:41
By the way? Maybe? Maybe the title was? Maybe the title should be blackjack. Maybe? notes for myself? Um,

Kerry 22:51
no, no, I would say, you know, I count the the time. When I was in the I like, I didn't I mean for 97 till 2003 2004 I guess is when I went on the pump. Try to get better control so that we could get pregnant. That MDI time period was really just like I got no idea what I'm doing but still my A onesies were I mean, I think when I first went in to start talking about pregnancy, my A onesies were stills, sevens, low eights. So

Scott Benner 23:36
I have a question. I always have the same question. When I hear this. When someone says to you, your body is not a place where we want to grow a baby because of your health. You don't think oh, I should change that for me. You think I should change that? So I have I can have a baby.

Kerry 23:54
I don't even know that. I mean, I guess it was set that way. But not that way. It was more like, alright, you can do this. We just need to get you in tighter control before you start trying. It wasn't like it was the way I hear it because I'm pretty much like a it although it might not have sounded like it so far. I'm not generally a sky as falling type person. It's just like, okay, it'll be alright. We'll get

Scott Benner 24:20
it. Okay. So your question. That's a good, that's a good thing to look at. So this sort of eternal optimism allows you to ignore things that are going wrong. Correct. Yeah. Because, because now is that ignorance like blissful ignorance? Or is that? Is that a genuine feeling of like, the sun will come out tomorrow? I'm gonna be Yeah,

Kerry 24:41
yeah. And I get that from my father. It's definitely like, we'll figure it out. Oh, it's harsh, flat. Oh, the other tires flat. Oh, I don't have a spare. I don't have a phone. It's okay. We'll figure it out.

Scott Benner 24:52
This episode of The Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by cozy Earth. And right now I'm looking at cozy earth.com to see What's going on? I got Oh, look at this bamboo pajama set for ladies. That jogger pants for ladies looks like plush lounge socks. That's one of Oprah's Favorite Things. There's the bath collection. We love the waffle towels. But there's also premium plush bath towels. Everything that you see here can be had for 40% off with the offer code juice box at checkout. Even the sheets. Now we use the bamboo sheets, you may choose different linens, I don't know what you're going to love when you get to cozier.com. But we sleep on bamboo sheets from cozy Earth, they are incredibly comfortable. And I bought them myself with my own money using my own offer code. juice box at checkout. 40% off is what I saved. You can as well at cozy earth.com My mom once said to me, we'll cross that bridge when we come to it. And I said Mom, we get to that bridge. It's going to be on fire. Why don't we plan now? Yep.

Kerry 25:59
Well, in my case, we just shimmy down the side and swim swim across. It's fine. We'll get across

Scott Benner 26:05
it says it's kind of like they're different ways of thinking really? Yeah, yeah. Yep. Okay, so is there ever a moment where you say where you say to yourself? I'm not okay. Or is it literally happening when you hear Mike talking on the

Kerry 26:21
podcast? It's literally happening when Mike is talking. I say, Okay, there's a moment. It still is a moment every time I listen to it.

Scott Benner 26:30
So yeah. Do you go back and re listen to it? I have a few times. Why? What draws you back to it?

Kerry 26:36
A couple of times it was because I was sharing it. You know, I shared it with my husband. My daughters listened to it with me. Yeah, I don't know.

Scott Benner 26:47
You just like to hear it again. Yep. Does it remind you to stay focused? Or do you not have? I'm,

Kerry 26:53
I'm, I'm focused. So he just seems like a really great guy.

Scott Benner 27:02
So okay, so you hear that? Your reaction is anger first? Yes. Like, why did somebody not tell me about this? Yes. Do you then start thinking? Uh, wow, there's something I could do to impact this? Yes. All right. And then what are your What are your steps that you take them? So I

Kerry 27:20
was already pretty well, you know, only only a few episodes, you know, couple, two, three episodes. I was already like, you know, coming home and saying, Hey, I just listened to the, this is crazy, like to my husband. And I guess just to step back a little bit, like a husband and my daughter, both obviously aware of my diabetes and some of the struggles but again, it's not like a they don't know, I don't really know, they don't really know, you know, like, oh, you need some more insulin. You know, my husband could give me a Bolus on my pump if he needed to they you know, I'm not hiding anything. But it's also not like a topic of conversation. Listen to a couple of shows town Mike's episode. And then history with the doctor, you know, supposed to go every every quarter, I was going maybe twice a year, skip appointments, in my prescription would come up and be like, Well, I have to go or they're not going to write a prescription, which I find ridiculous. But listen to Mike's episode. And I would say if it wasn't the next day, it was within a week. I didn't call the doctor, I went to the doctor into the office. During code, it's still a little bit and went to the went to this to the lady and said, I need the next cancellation appointment that you have. And she's like, you have an appointment in like, two months or whatever it was. So this was September, September, October of 2021. And I was like, No, but I need to get in. I need to I need I need to get in. I need some changes. And she said okay, so she was like, You're not going to believe this. But we have an appointment this Friday. And I said, Great. I'll take it in. So I took it and I went and I walked in the office and I said I'm done with this pump. I want to Omni pod and I want to Dexcom and the first thing they said was loop is not FDA approved. And I said I didn't say loop. I said I went to Omni pod and I wanted Dexcom and she was like well, we can get you the Dexcom and then there was like silence and I said and Omni pod. And she was like, Well, I mean, have you really looked at it. And I said I was adamant like this. No, I'm telling you What I want. So she put me in touch with the local rep and get the ball rolling. But General consensus, after listening for all this time is I guess they don't bring the right bagels. I don't know what the problem is, but no love for the Omni pod in the office. So

Scott Benner 30:16
the girl that brings all the great pens, she sells the Medtronic. Right? So could you just take that, please? Because I love the way the pen writes. And it just the ink really flows out of it. Well, would you like one? Yeah, no, I have a pen from Medtronic.

Kerry 30:32
Yeah, and so just to step that back. So I was also kind of upset that I had been asked, I don't know, maybe a couple of times in the office. Do you want you know, there's a new CGM, you know, beyond a Dexcom? I would say, you know, I did the, I think it was the guardian. I can't remember the name of it. I just remember how bad it hurt is that I have that I'm good. And that was the end of the conversation. And I feel like that is not a service. There should have been more from their ends to say, like, No, you need to try it. It's different, like nothing. And it's like, Do you not want to say something? Because it doesn't hurt like the other product? Like, I don't know what, but it was like,

Scott Benner 31:21
like, you felt like they didn't want to have the conversation? Because that would be verbalizing what Yeah,

Kerry 31:27
I don't know. But it's, you know, and especially after wearing it a couple of years is like, Why did nobody know? You know, again, like, can you tell me more about except for just in passing when you're writing my prescriptions? Oh, do you want to try it next time? Yeah,

Scott Benner 31:40
I always enjoy when someone asks me a question, I have no way to know the answer to. And then when I don't know the answer, they just go. Okay. But you're not going to fill in the blanks for me? Do you? Right, you know, or is it? You know, to your point like, is this a sales thing? Are you just being sold better by one company than the other? It is it you know, there are there are offices, who won't prescribe anything but certain pumps, I believe that yeah, there's no meaningful reason for that. You know, other than they have. I'm not even saying like a financial tie to it. Just it's a, it's how they do it. You don't I mean, like, I've been doing it this way forever. And this is what we're going to go this is what we're gonna keep doing reminds me that Tony Stark quote from the first Iron Man movie, what is that? Do you know what I'm talking about? No. All right, hold on a second. We're gonna take a minute let you collect yourself. And I'm gonna do this because it's gonna stick in my head. That's that's the way dad did it. Hold on America. There's all these words in here. Let me see if I can find it. Oh, yeah, here it is. He goes. That's how dad did it. That's how America does it. And it's worked out pretty well, so far. By the way, talking about making bombs. I always think that, like it's the some version of the meatloaf story about, you know, that I think I've told on here before and you know, like, I don't know, we just do it this way. This is how we do it. Just keep doing it the way we do it for God's sake. And you're like, well, there's three other products now. They're newer, like, other people use them? Would you not want to, like make yourself aware of them. So we could have a real conversation? Nothing. Just just keep going. Do this thing.

Kerry 33:30
It took a minute for her to even dig out a piece of literature to share with me. Yeah, take home. So

Scott Benner 33:38
yeah, they definitely didn't want you to have an omni pod. Right? Yeah. Yeah. I was so pressured not to get Arden and on the pod all those years ago by multiple people. Like when one person told me no, and I persisted. They brought other people to me to tell me no, and they just started saying all these, like things, none of which ever ended up being true. You can't she's too skinny for that. Right? The cannula goes into the wrong, blah, blah, blah, it's gonna fall off. It's gonna get knocked off. She's not gonna like that too. But you blew it. She's too small. She's too. Like, I am gonna try it if you don't mind. And then they're like, well, then the the other one that used to be what was the thing they used to scare you with? Oh, once you make this decision, you can't go back because you're locked in with your insurance. Right? That used to be the the old by the way now. And this isn't part of an ad for Omnipod. But now because of pharmacy benefits, you can actually Anyway, listen to it listen to you can move around a little more easily. But But I don't think it's malicious. I never once thought they were being malicious. I just thought they didn't know. Yeah,

Kerry 34:45
well, we're gonna get into more that they didn't know I guess. Okay,

Scott Benner 34:50
what else didn't they know? So I walked out I

Kerry 34:53
had they I had a I wouldn't say I got a Dexcom in the office like a sample If it wasn't that day I like came back the next day worked with the educator in is pretty much set up and ready to roll prescription set. So it took another week or so to get Omni pod. But again, once I got rolling, I was rolling. So, three months later went into the office. I think my agency, the previous visit was like seven, six or seven for when back in the office. My agency was five, seven. Well, that's better. And she was pissed.

Scott Benner 35:32
Oh, yeah. Cuz you succeeded. She didn't want

Kerry 35:35
you to have she was not happy. And I remember sitting there going, I mean, the the it had never been in the well hadn't been in the five since pregnancy. It's funny, because that whole, you know, year long period of getting pregnant and being pregnant. I was under six pretty consistently and then, you know, then it wasn't but so I was in office, she came back in and she was like, What are you basically what are you doing? You know, I was like, I can't like Why are you mad bro? Like

Scott Benner 36:10
title title? Why you mad bro?

Kerry 36:15
I mean, you should be you should we should be standing up giving each other a hug right now like not what is happening. And she called the Dexcom stop. And she was like, You are this is just too low. You can't you have to be careful. And and I'll be honest with you there. There were and I still do have lows, but it's not like I'm you know, in the 40s and ello. W I know how to correct it. I correct it quickly. You know, you know, I think even Ron in the 70s 80s She was like you can't this is not good. It's just too low. And so I left that appointment pretty mad because it's like, I think it's great. So

Scott Benner 37:05
yeah, like, if this was like a Cinemax movie, there'd be some like kissing after this.

Kerry 37:10
I mean, something like I need like somebody to give me a high five and a pat on the bottom. I felt like I was on the Chicago Bulls. I need to run through the, you know, come

Scott Benner 37:22
out through the tunnel, you're like I did everybody just line up around me five, seven, baby. If you think that they just are she thought, well, you're gonna hurt yourself. Yeah, because people don't have here's the expectation when you run into a doctor or physician or clinician like that. They don't think you're doing it in a meaningful way. They think you're just having a bunch of lows. And that's why the number looks lower. And they're worried about that. Ironically, when your agency was in the AIDS, she didn't look at it and say, Well, you're not doing this right. You're gonna kill yourself. She was like, this is fine. Die at your own pace.

Kerry 38:01
Know, yeah, so I didn't listen. I was like, whatever. You can be mad if you want. But, you know, and luckily, I have some, although I don't have any printer or know anyone who's type one. I have some friends who are registered dieticians, and one early in her career, spent some time and was exploring the CDE route. So I have some people in my corner that are checking on me that kind of know what's up. So I left that appointment and I and I texted the one friend. And you know, I got the I got the feeling that I expected from the doctor for from some other in my other people in my circle. So do

Scott Benner 38:44
you have any idea how many people text me when they leave their doctor's offices? Or hay mills? They're just like, oh my god, I'm standing in the parking lot outside of my window. This is my A one. See, you're the one I wanted to tell. And I think that's partly because they're like, Well, somebody's gonna cheat for me here. Yeah, you know,

Kerry 39:02
I posted in the Facebook group from the parking lot. Absolutely.

Scott Benner 39:07
I got angry a minute ago, not at you, but at the system. And I'm gonna expound on this a little bit. I don't understand why you're allowed to consciously kill yourself with higher blood sugars, but you're not allowed to try to be healthier. And then understand that there's a risk in there that you have to be aware of. Like, why do Why does it not matter if you're high? Like we're taking minutes off your life? If you're high? We're causing frozen shoulder the thing with the finger I can't pronounce and do pinchers? Is that it? Yep. That. You know, I can't say it makes me think of the platypus cartoon.

Kerry 39:48
Oh, yeah. Ah,

Scott Benner 39:50
Phineas and Ferb? Yeah, probably. Yeah. Phineas and Ferb. I can't say the word because my brain will run down like a Phineas Ferb rabbit hole. So I can't do that, but which I just did to myself and now it's how But, but you see what I'm saying? Like it's okay to have an eight, a nine a 10. And you know, something bad's gonna happen to you, but it will happen in the future. It won't happen now. But I don't want you to have a 5.7 a one C because what if you get low? Like, what the fuck are you talking about? Yeah, like, how about in this scenario, I've got a chance. And in that scenario, I do not have a chance. I just have a little extra time where we're all pretending it's going to be okay. And it's fascinating like, people, can I just say something? I'm going to come off poorly here. What the hell Carrie? I've been at this for a while. A lot of people can't think there are levels to thoughts. There's the thing you hear first, and then there's the implication. And then there's the other implication. And then there's a different perspective and an alternate idea. And there's a you have to be able to stand in the middle of a thought and see it all happening around you. You can't just look at the part that you thought that your little brain thought of first and expected. That's the answer. High is better than low. Why? Well, you won't have a seizure if you're high. Okay. Why later, you'll just die later. And be unhealthy the whole time that we're okay with. Hmm, fascinating. Idiots. Yep, morons. If anyone's listening and you think that and you're a doctor, you're an idiot. There. That's it. I'll just go down in flames carry what the hell? I mean, I'm with you. Think about it. Go a couple more steps into the thought. Try to problem solve, like, be helpful. You're holding people's hands into their grave, and acting like you're helping them this woman thought she was being helped. And was not fast. Oh, it's terrible. All right, now I'm upset. You're upset. Keep going. What's next? You know, most

Kerry 41:46
of the time I'm seeing the nurse practitioner I'm not seeing in though. I only see I only get to her. I guess once a year, maybe. So the next appointment is with her. And the reaction from her is slightly better. Wow. Is that really good? She held

Scott Benner 42:05
in her fear that you

Kerry 42:06
choose swallowing it pretty good. But, um, so So bottom line is I haven't had an agency above six since I started listening. Good for you. Congratulations. Good. Thank Thank you.

Scott Benner 42:19
I don't know. Well, obviously, it's I don't like to say it. But obviously I did it. But you know, I mean,

Kerry 42:24
I wouldn't. I wouldn't be that way. If it wasn't for you. I can

Scott Benner 42:28
cry. Let me say, let me say this. Let me say this. You put in a ton of hard work and overcame a significant amount of generational like in your own life, like trauma and poor expectations. So you did all the hard work. I just really just, I just like pointed a flashlight at something. I was like, look at that over there. Don't you want that? Right? Yeah, here's, here's how we can get to that. Launch it go see if you can find that. Yeah, it's all I did. I'm corresponding with a gentleman right now on Instagram. Never heard his voice. And I would say that when he first reached out to me, he was really in a dire situation. And now he's like, it's like six months later. And he's been in range, like two days in a row. And he's super excited and doing better and paying attention to things and made some adjustments to his, you know, settings. And it just occurs to me when I look back on this moment. I didn't I mean, think about this, you went and saw a medical professional. Do you know how long it takes to get a medical degree, you have to go to undergrad, then you have to go to med school. And then if you're going to be an endo, you have to go to some I'm guessing it's 10 years to be a doctor, right? And then they sit in front of you. And you are having that experience and a guy DM me on Instagram and six months later, he's okay. What does that mean? Is it am I a genius? No, no, I'm not. I just told him, you're mad. You gotta get your basil, right. And then after you do that, we're going to figure out your insulin to carb ratio. You know, make sure your Bolus in your meals correctly, need to understand how these foods are going to impact your life and then just don't sit stagnant. When you see high blood sugars. And let's not overcorrect, low blood sugars. Go do that. And then he comes back. He's like I was in range. 85% today. I was like, Yeah, because you did the thing the right way. That's and that's not because I'm like a magic person. The podcast should be one episode long. It should be like Hello, everyone and welcome to the Juicebox Podcast. Understand how insulin works. Its timing and amount. All foods aren't equal. Don't stare at high blood sugars don't overcorrect. Lowe's, I'll see you later. That should be the whole podcast. And, you know, but the problem is, is that that message reaches people in all sorts of different ways. Right. And yours. Got to you through Mike.

Kerry 44:49
Absolutely. Yeah. Well, and then I mean, that was like the catalyst and then you know, then then I'm kinda, you know, you led me to the water and then I'm just I'm drunk, right? So I'm listening to 345 episodes a day, sometimes more actively listening sometimes just in the background, as I'm working in, you know, really started digging in and the episodes with Ginny. I mean, it's it was just a lot. And I was I was at a point too, I think you have to be ready. It's, it's almost like addiction, right? Like, people can tell you things and whatever. But if you're not ready to do the work back to your point, then, you know, you can listen all day. But if you're not going to do anything as a result of that, and doesn't really matter.

Scott Benner 45:39
Yeah, you can lead a horse to water is saying for a reason. Yeah, Yep, absolutely. So the one that always strikes me is that, you know, I grew up through the time when like, really bad, like television talk shows were on. And you couldn't flip a channel without seeing a 16 year old girl holding a baby crying, you know? And I would think the same thing every time. Like, doesn't everyone know this already? Right? Like, like, which is not reasonable. You don't I mean, but like that's, that's how it would occurred to me when I was younger. Like we all saw this Maury Povich episode, when you're 16. And your boyfriend starts making a face push them off. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What do you like? Don't have a baby when you're 16. Right? Does it go? Well, for some people? Sure. But how do you not learn from this experience, and the truth is, is what you just said, you can't pre load human beings and expect them to just follow the program. They have to have experiences for themselves. And understanding that, especially around diabetes is super important. Because it stops you from writing people off, which is what the medical community does all the time. They the easiest connection I can make to it is that I know a lot of police officers, and some of them are become cynical. And there's like a 10 year lifespan before they, they kind of go through a process if you look their studies about like they start off like gung ho and like, you know, like they move through these processes. But eventually, you surround these people with enough of society that says like, they're trying to get over, they're trying to steal, they're lying to me. And before that, before too long, that becomes your expectation that everybody making face to face contact with us getting over on you somehow. And I think the same thing happens to doctors in a slightly different way. Whereas they come in gung ho, they preach, they preach, they preach, they don't realize the stuff they're preaching is not particularly helpful. And then when it doesn't change the patient's outcome, they go, oh, people don't listen. So now, after they've been in practice for a while the next patient comes in, they've written you off, when they looked at your chart, they didn't even wait to talk to you, oh, this person has this or that, or this. I know how this is gonna go. I'm not gonna waste my breath on this. They don't I don't think they think that consciously. But I think that's what happens. And you know, and what that all all that boils down to, when you're talking about the medical thing is that if they as doctors were actually doing something helpful, then people would have better outcomes, and then they would have better expectations. That's all. Yeah, yeah. It's generational. Because you mentioned it earlier. You just said something in passing, you go, Well, you know, back then I didn't test but the meter sucked anyway. So if enough people come up in that mindset, and they're in charge of telling you what to do, that's their mindset. It's what happened to you. Like, you know, technology changed, you did not change with it. Right. And so you were just like, well, this is what diabetes is, I guess I just, you know, I'll get old and that'll be great. Because I'll die on time with my older husband. I mean, that's such a sad statement. Carrie, is horrible. It really, really terrible. But the point is, it doesn't have to be that way. But you can't, every new person should get the the grace that that they deserve. And then they should get good information, which if doctors would listen closer to what I'm saying, it's not hard to explain to them. And it's not it's, you're confusing the issue, the way you talk to them, or when you grab their pump in turn a couple of hours ago, go come back. No one can do that. You can't just look at a graph and go Oh, I see the problem. You're getting high at 1am. Or you're getting low at 1am. They always do the wrong thing. No one they never think about what good ones do but most people don't think about insulin correctly. They think about like oh at 1am your low. So we'll just turn your Basal down at like midnight. But if you see the bigger picture, there was a meal at 9pm that was you know, 8pm that was Bolus for improperly. Blood sugar got really high person made a correction below at one o'clock is from the Bolus at 11 and the Bolus Sit 11 exists because of the poor Bolus at eight, you're low at 1am is because of a mistake you made at 8pm. And they don't see that stuff. They just lost your settings to try to get. That's why everybody's setting soc. Because they're, they're all patches, that people just keep patching your settings will turn your base floppy or turn it down there, do this, what do you do you run around a lot at four o'clock will do and not that some of that isn't valuable. The other day I was recording with Jenny, we're making a type two series, and we were expressing how blockages happen in arteries. I think that the way an artery gets blocked is the same way that people settings get so screwed up is that there's a little nick in it, you put a patch on it, and you put another patch on another one. And before you know it, you've got so many patches on it. And it's working for some reason, but it's not going to work like that for long, because something is gonna happen. And then everything's just screwed up. So anyway, I'm sorry. So sorry. I babble. I apologize.

Kerry 51:01
No, that's good. So digressing back to what you said about the type two, you announced that we're gonna date this episode, I guess a little bit, but you announced it last night on the on the Facebook group that was coming out. And you're like, basically, I want to hear your pissin and moanin. If you don't agree with it, keep moving. There, you're getting kicked out of the group. And the first comment that I saw was, like, said, it was pretty innocent what she said, but it was definitely like, just keep scrolling. And then here we're like, and this person is no longer in the group and is perfect. And then there was a lot of drama this weekend that needs to be happening in the group, either. It's so frustrating for those of us who come there to be in community to have people with their own agendas that you know, that I appreciate all that that you guys do you and this very small team of folks, yeah, I'm helping you with that a little bit. Do to keep that place clean? Because it's a it's a safe place for us not. You know,

Scott Benner 52:04
no, I appreciate that. Thank you. It's hard to do, because it's, so what you're saying, just in case people are listening didn't follow along with that. I knew I was putting up my first diabetes, type two diabetes pro tip the following day. And there's a small segment of people who if I say anything about type two are like, this is for type one people. And I'm like, okay, you know, I, there's so many type twos in the in the group now. And they, it turns out that they're helped by the podcast, you know, if they need medication, or, you know, and it's just an injectable, well, then they learn about, like how food impacts them. And they make decisions that way, if they're using insulin, I mean, the truth is, by the time you're type two, and you're using insulin, there's not a lot of difference between being type one and type two, if you're using insulin as a type two. So the podcast is helping them it's people losing grand amounts of weight, and a one sees coming down at lives being changed and everything. And I'm not going to let one short sighted dummy come in in the middle of it and yell like, there's places for type ones, like what are you doing? Like, you know, and even a person came into the thread and was like, you know, like, Please don't, I had to pick through what they were saying. But they were worried that because there are more people with type two in the world, that my content would help them. And then that that would stop me from making a type one podcast. That's so crazy. And I thought, wow, that's such an interesting leap. Like, I can do both things at the same time. I'm okay. You know, like, like, it's gonna be alright. But but that's self preservation that this person felt, I understood that. They were like, they were like, Look, you in this thing that you made for me, are saving my life. Don't stop doing it. Don't get like caught up in somebody else's thing. Like, stay here with me. So I just told that person. I said, Look, don't worry. Like, if that's what you're worried about, it's okay. I like that's not gonna happen. I've thought this. I've been thinking about this for years. Don't worry, I didn't just wake up today and decide to do. And so but the other person was just like, oh, like, here it comes. And I'll let these people in. You know what I mean? I'm like, Oh, my God. And then I went back to say something to them. And they had already left the group and I had the same thought you did. I was like, Okay, well, first off.

Kerry 54:29
Let's keep scrolling. Yeah, and if

Scott Benner 54:31
that person's listening, I banned your account. You can never get back in. I don't understand. Well, I do understand, but it's still baffling. To watch someone be so helped by something. And then it becomes less than perfect for them and they yank their pants down and sit on the floor and run out.

Kerry 54:51
Right? That's mine. Mine. Mine. Mine mine. You can't have any of it. Yeah, fascinating.

Scott Benner 54:55
I'm not up for that. Yeah, so So

Kerry 54:59
I do I, and that's one of the things I wanted to tell you as well as like that group means a lot. I think there's a lot of people out there like me that don't, that don't know anybody. So so that group is, is the is that connection for me, even though I'm very rarely on that site? I don't know, half a dozen times a day. So

Scott Benner 55:24
I'm aware of how it works for most people that they don't, they don't say anything. It's just there for them. Yeah, I can. It's extremely helpful. I'm glad. Thank you. I appreciate you sharing that with me. Because it was it wasn't, it wasn't my idea. And, but once I saw it working, I was like, Oh, I know how to make this bigger and better and helpful. And, you know, so. But, you know, I told people before, like, I didn't want to make a Facebook page. I got, like, browbeat into it by listeners who were like, We need a place to go. And I was like, Okay, God, I don't want to be in charge of Facebook. And

Kerry 55:59
I appreciate the you know, for the most part, when I see going on on there, you kind of let it work itself out. And I appreciate that, too. Because it's, that's good for us to see to like, okay, you know, with the stuff this past weekend, there were like people concerned, it was about a religious post this weekend. But the reactions from some of the people was like, You people are new here. And then I was kind of like that mind, mind mind mentality. Like, you don't need to be here, if you're gonna act like this.

Scott Benner 56:33
Yeah, I had to let that play out a little bit and work it out. Because it's interesting. So I, in my heart, I want people to be able to say whatever they want, right? Yeah. And so I just let it go on. And then I came in, and I said, Look, we're not going to tell people how to talk here. So, you know, you just get over it. And a person came in and said, I don't know if you all don't like really know the space well, or haven't heard the podcast. But Scott has no religious holdings whatsoever. Right. And he's in here defending these religious posts. And she's like, that's your indication that this is a good place to be. Yeah, like and and I did I let it go on forever and ever and ever. And I had no trouble with the law. I deleted anything that was due to people. I was like, No, you're not saying that. I lost listeners. People yelled at me in private messages. Oh, my God. And I'm like, Oh, my God, I wish they knew. I'm like, I read it. I'm like, I don't care about this. impacting me, if that's what you think is happening. I'm just running it in a common sense why? And then it was over. And I thought, Ah, there's another like, I have a half a dozen these days a year where I'm like, My whole day is just like teaching adults not to be children. And it was over. And then at the end of the night, someone puts up a new post and she's an rehashes it and I was I thought I saw it. I was like, You mother. Just got this out. I'm like, really? And then that person yelled at me. And then and you would think, like, I banned I didn't, I was like, Look, I understand how you feel. But this isn't what's going to happen. And so you're, you're not gonna restart this problem. Like, just, it's over now. But I thought you were talking about yesterday. This person put up a post explaining how the podcast really isn't for them. Because they have ADHD, and they can't, like keep up or I you know, to be honest with you, I was like, I started reading and I was like, Oh, great. Here's a this is lovely. Like, can you just imagine if you I don't know like pick your like, what's your favorite movie? Oh, that's a tough one TV SHOW ACTOR anything helped me carry go quickly.

Kerry 58:52
Maybe from childhood would be rocky to

Scott Benner 58:56
imagine if Sylvester Stallone was sitting at home. And someone had the ability to walk up to him knock on his window, you open the window and the guy and the guy goes, Hey, I want to tell you something. I don't like this Rocky movies. Yeah, they're just they're not for me. I think so stolen would go. Alright, man. What? What? Why are we doing this? You know what I mean? Like, like, what what is this about? And he might close the window now. Not me. I just watched the thread grow. I don't like it either. I was like, this is fun for me. I get to listen to all the people who don't like the podcast.

Kerry 59:34
Well, and then there's people that go there's a podcast. Yeah.

Scott Benner 59:38
And other people who are offended by that. It's just It's fascinating. So, but anyway, I'm gonna tell you what I think in in the grand scheme of things. At least they're talking about it. Yeah, that's all I care about. I don't know if they've ever said this on the podcast before or not, because there's like a little dicey language in it, but I wrote a book took a long time ago. And it was about being a stay at home dad. And it did well, but it didn't do great. And I wasn't famous and publishers don't help their authors unless they're famous and stuff like that. So I did some media book languished a little bit, sold, okay. And then I went on television, I somehow, like got my way onto the Katie Couric show. And part of that Katie had a blog, and she must have done business with AOL. So at some point on the front page of AOL was a story about my book. And I thought, Oh, this is great, like, the books gonna sell like crazy and nothing happened. And I was like, Oh, my God, like being on TV didn't help the sales like this article. I was just like, Oh, alright, I guess I give up, you know. And about two weeks later, I get a text from a friend. And they're like, Hey, your books number 50 in the country. And I'm like, what? That's not true. And I went on Amazon, and I was like, number 50. I was like, What in the hell people have finally realized my genius, like, yeah. And I thought, but then it turns a little went on for like, two weeks. And then suddenly it stopped. And I thought, what happened? Like, I thought this was it. And then a month later, it popped back up again. And I'm like, Oh, I'm back. And then one day, I realized, on AOL, there was a chat about the article. And people were arguing as to whether or not I was a closeted homosexual or not. Oh, my gosh. And so the, this is fantastic. I've never have I never told this on here.

Kerry 1:01:42
I haven't heard it. I've heard the Katie Couric and not

Scott Benner 1:01:47
this. So. So what ended up happening was, is they're starting to, you know, like fringe conversation. No straight man wants to stay home with their kids. Wow, this woman, this poor woman is married to a gay guy, and she doesn't even know it. And I was like, Oh, my God. And then at first, you're like, I thought, I'm not gay. But I don't care about that. Like, like that part I don't care about other people would come in. They're like, you're an idiot. People can run their lives anywhere they want. The guy's not gay because he stays home with his family and has feelings. And you know what happened? They argued with each other. So the fringes were arguing, you know what the middle was doing? Fine in the book. Why in the book I talk about Yeah. So when I see that crap on Facebook, all I think is keep going. God call me gay all you want. Better to me. People are listening to the podcast, and they're a one sees her better, and their health is better. And their variability is lower, and they're happier. And they're baba, baba, but go ahead and do your crazy fringy arguments. Who cares? You know why? Because then the algorithm says, People care about this place. And then they feed it to you. And then you come in, and instead of like, because you're a reasonable person, instead of going like, Oh, are they arguing about Jesus, or ADHD or whatever they're arguing about? You're gonna I don't want to be a part of this. Let me go check out the Pro Tip series. Right. So in the end, what people don't realize is their insanity is making the podcast more popular. Right? Yeah. So call me gay. All you want carried that should be the name of this episode. Because it helps it helps people with their diabetes, and I'm not impacted by it at all. And by the way, whether I'm gay or straight, whatever, like, you know what I mean? Like, it was it was just the act of them arguing. And what would happen was that AOL saw that people were interested in the article, so they kept putting it on the front page. So it was on the front page. Nobody looked at it. Then the argument happened, it rolled around to the front page. I sold crazy for two weeks. At the end of the month, it dropped off. And then at some point a month later, someone found the thread again, started arguing again, which made our AOL algorithm put the story back on the front page again. So anyway, that is an absolutely 1,000,000% True story. I was a best seller. I was a best seller for two weeks.

Kerry 1:04:21
Well, hey, added to the resume, right? The resume

Scott Benner 1:04:25
didn't hold. It didn't hold on long enough for me to be an actual best seller. And to be honest with you, I don't even know if that book is any good. Like, you want to hear something funny.

Kerry 1:04:34
I'm not even getting a hold of it anymore. No, I know, because

Scott Benner 1:04:37
the publisher went out of business. Yeah, and I could probably get the rights to it and just self publish it but like, it sounds like a lot of work. I would get the rights to it. Just put it online and make it free. Maybe that I should just do that. That wouldn't be a bad idea. Alright, hold on a second. I got a board here. Make a note of it. Right book rights, let's see what I can get done. But anyway, like people don't understand how things they don't understand how they're being manipulated. And they just they just don't see it. Like, like, by the way, like if people have trouble listening to the podcast because they have ADHD, like I understand. I really do. I don't understand coming to my place of like, and being like, Hey, I just came here to let you all know, I don't like the podcast.

Kerry 1:05:25
Thanks. So I go into Chick fil A and say, I hate chicken. And they're just leaving.

Scott Benner 1:05:33
I don't I don't enjoy it. By the way. It's not even I hate chicken. It would be like, hello. I don't enjoy chicken. Does everyone hear me? I just don't enjoy chicken. You not you either. Oh, no. What? Are you just having a salad? Yeah, me too. I don't like the chicken. All right, I'm gonna go now. What did that just do? Oh, so that's how I thought of it at first. But then it turned into like this kind of lovely gathering of people with ADHD. And I thought, Oh, wow, even this is going to help somebody. Right? You know, and so good. So, so I have no, by the way, I would never. I would never just, if you said something I didn't like and that Facebook group. I mean, you'd have to be like, wrong or hurtful or malicious. Right? For me to delete it. Like, I'm just like, alright, well, they don't like the podcast, whatever. But I don't know. Because then what happens is someone else comes in and says, No, you should try listening to it. It's really helpful. Or maybe there's ways for you to get the information that would be easier on your ADHD using that as an example. It would be here's another free piece of advice for content creators who are getting it all wrong. Most people would delete that. Right? You know, most people would be like, Oh, I don't want anybody to hear that. They don't like the podcast. I'm like, I don't know. I assume people don't like it. Right? Why would everybody like it?

Kerry 1:06:53
Everybody likes it? I don't think you're doing it right. When everybody started,

Scott Benner 1:06:57
like in South Park, I stopped watching it. I loved it when nobody knew but us. Anyway, it's just, we're going over and I have a really busy day. So let me make sure. I want to make sure we get all this together. So you make your adjustments, do your things. Your agency is terrific. Your variability is better. Has your shoulder gotten any better? Yeah,

Kerry 1:07:18
so I didn't. So they gave me a couple options in the office. I mean, at that point, I probably was at like 30%, maybe mobility, whatever. He was, like, you know, we could we could look at maybe a cortisone shot, or I really think he should just go to physical therapy. So that was height of COVID. So I got diagnosed with that, like, February of 2020. So it's like I Yeah, I'm good. So I did a bunch of reading online and, you know, a lot of horror stories about physical therapy, and it's like, or you could just wait it out. So I would say because the pain wasn't terrible, unless I tried to move it

Scott Benner 1:08:05
hurts when I do this? Yeah,

Kerry 1:08:07
don't do that. I'll do which was pretty much anything was my right arm. So I'm probably like, 90% back. So

Scott Benner 1:08:16
really, your blood sugar's just stabilized and lower. You're feeling better. Yeah, yeah. I spoke to somebody the other day that said that their feelings of neuropathy went away after they found the podcast. That's cool. Yeah. Pretty cool. for everybody, but like, you could have damage that can't be you know, right, walking. But yeah, it's so it's amazing. Did you ever meet Mike in person other than in the Facebook Live? Have you? Have you spoken to him online?

Kerry 1:08:46
Just during that Facebook Live?

Scott Benner 1:08:50
So he's hearing now what this all meant to him? To you? I'm sorry. He's just hearing now in this episode. What this all meant to you? Yes, that's lovely. Can you tell me why it made you cry in the beginning when you were talking about it? I don't

Kerry 1:09:05
know. Just I was just so angry. And I was just angry. And if you get me mad enough to make me cry, that's that's a lot. Like I'm, I'm angry. So it's like, well, I guess I was, and still am a little angry about it. But you know, you know better you do better. And, and that's where I'm at now. So

Scott Benner 1:09:25
good for you. Excellent. I consider therapy. Yep. The, by the way, by the time this comes out, I might be able to put a better help ad on here. They've reached out to me. That's not why I brought it

Kerry 1:09:38
up. Hey. Yeah. Yeah.

Scott Benner 1:09:43
Starting to get advertiser inquiries from companies that aren't like, diabetes specific. Yep. So the other day, um, they were like, Hey, we're reaching out on behalf of BetterHelp. And I was like, oh, that's the online therapy thing. I was like I actually thought, but that might really be helpful for People, right? You know, I was like, alright, I'll hear more about that. So we're in the process of them telling me more about it. So yeah. All right. Well, I really appreciate you doing this. This sounds strange, but I have to record again in 45 minutes. And then as soon as that's over, I have to go to the dentist. Oh, fun for you. My day sucks. Except for except for talking to you. That part's been really good. Oh, thank you. Did you get to say everything you wanted to say? Yeah, I

Kerry 1:10:24
just wanted to say one more thing that I appreciate all the discussions around eating may not have applied to me. But my, my daughter has a has had some guests or stuff. She actually had her gallbladder out this summer. And then after that, we determined that it was actually gluten all along. So she does not have celiac but just kind of listening to other people talk through and then you talking about some Ardennes things has really been beneficial as well. So I appreciate all that all those discussions. And even even when an episode is something that doesn't apply to me at all, I usually always get something. I always have a takeaway, so I appreciate it. Oh, it's my pleasure, more than more than more than anybody could ever tell you enough. There's a lot of us out there that it's just huge. So thank you,

Scott Benner 1:11:17
what would have been more meaningful? If you cried while you're saying it? But I Well, I'm

Kerry 1:11:20
fine swallowing a little bit.

Scott Benner 1:11:25
Good. I hope people understand I'm teasing. But no, that's, that's so nice. I appreciate it. I just think, you know, I have this theory about why things work and why they don't. And, you know, it's funny that it to bring back up the ADHD thread, those, a couple of those people were like, just give me the bullet points, I don't want the conversation, I don't want you to go down a rabbit hole or tell a joke in the middle I because they're because they can't, because they get lost in it when it happens. And I understand that. I wish they could understand that this is the this is just what I know how to do. And I also believe that distribution is the biggest problem. Like you can have all the good information in the world, if you can literally get it to people, it's meaningless. And I think if you look at the diabetes community, as a whole, over the last, like, over the internet age, as an example, it's full of well, meaning well educated people writing down bullet lists of what you should do. And that hasn't helped anyone. I'm sure it helps some people. But it hasn't helped the mass of people, the average agency is still too high. People still fundamentally don't understand their disease. And I think that if I keep having these conversations, that someone will take some some new person will take some new bit of information out of each one of them. Yeah, and that that, to me is a very slow and patient plan. But the other thing doesn't work. Like I wrote them all down for you just do them. Yeah. Okay. You just said earlier, like, I don't know why I didn't do the thing. Yeah, I mean, I had to have that experience for myself. And so it means a lot to me that that you say you find something in every episode, because I actually believe that, I think that if, if you just listen to this podcast, you'd be better off. And in a lot of ways that are not measurable. And in a lot of ways that you wouldn't expect. A you know, digestion as an example, like I told Arden the other day, said, I got this really lovely note from somebody, a woman in her 40s, who said that her stomach doesn't hurt for the first time in decades. And she was writing to thank Arden for letting me share our story. And I said, Isn't that nice? And artigos? Yeah, it's fine. But I still wish my stomach didn't hurt. And I was like, No, I know. I'm not saying no, yeah, fair enough. But it was one of the first times I can tell she's getting older. Because she was I want to find the right word. She seemed pleased that her story helped somebody. And and kind of grateful to know what happened. And in the past, when she was younger, she'd be like, doesn't help me, you know? And I'm like, No, I know. But by the way, she cares. That's fine. Tell my story all you want, but I'm not getting anything out of it. And I think this is the first time she realized, like helping people is nice. And you do get something out of that. Right, you know, but, but think about that that's a Arden's whole journey. us like hammering through it, trying to figure it out, coming up with this weird thing. And then me having a platform to say it, so the distribution works, because otherwise, it's just me on my Facebook page telling 12 people, which doesn't help anybody, it helps those 12 people and it dies on the vine there. Right? People need to understand how the dissemination of information works in a digital age. We need the conversations so that people keep coming back and keep listening. I can't just make cuz like, as much as I'll joke about it one episode with the secrets to life in it, nobody would listen to. And if they would, we wouldn't need new television shows because you'd also be watching mash or the hunting or the honeymooners, we'd all still be watching, right? So you need more content has to keep copying, to keep people engaged, to keep conversations going so that you can have the conversations so that the information can come out so that somebody new can take something out of it. And that is my lesson on podcast for today. That no one will listen to you all just keep doing the same stupid that you do over and over again and no one's gonna listen to your podcast, but whatever. Do what you want. I don't care, Gary. All right.

Kerry 1:15:42
Launch and get ready for the business dammit Hold

Scott Benner 1:15:44
on one second for me. Okay appreciate you doing this

Unknown Speaker 1:15:46
okay

Scott Benner 1:15:55
a huge thanks to Carrie for coming on the show. And actually Karis file got put in the wrong folder, so she had to wait a lot longer than she should have to hear her episode. So I apologize for that. This episode of The Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by cozy Earth. use the offer code juice box at checkout at cozy earth.com And you will save 40% off of your entire order. A huge thanks to us med for sponsoring this episode of The Juicebox Podcast. Don't forget us med.com/juice box this is where we get our diabetes supplies from you can as well use the link or call 888-721-1514 Use the link or call the number get your free benefits check so that you can start getting your diabetes supplies the way we do from us med if you're not already subscribed or following in your favorite audio app, please take the time now to do that. It really helps the show and get those automatic downloads set up so you never miss an episode. Thank you so much for listening. I'll be back very soon with another episode of The Juicebox Podcast. The episode you just heard was professionally edited by wrong way recording. Wrong way recording.com