Scott Benner 12/26/23 Scott Benner 12/26/23

#1093 Drive to Birmingham

Heather is a nurse and the mother of a child with type 1 diabetes.

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Scott Benner 0:00
Hello friends, welcome to episode 1093 of the Juicebox Podcast.

Heather had been a nurse for 15 years when her seven year old daughter Liza was diagnosed with type one diabetes. This episode has a lot. Again, I It's hard for me to, like encapsulate it all here for you, but it's a crazy diagnosis story that includes DKA, and so much more. Nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise, always consult a physician before making any changes to your health care plan. Don't forget to save 40% off of your entire order at cosy earth.com. All you have to do is use the offer code juice box at checkout that's juice box at checkout to save 40% at cosy earth.com. When you place your first order for ag one with my link, you'll get five free travel packs and a free year supply of vitamin D. Drink ag one.com/juicebox If you're not already subscribed or following in your favorite audio app, please take the time now to do that it really helps the show and get those automatic downloads set up so you never miss an episode.

Today's episode of The Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by Dexcom, makers of the Dexcom G seven and G six continuous glucose monitoring systems. dexcom.com/juicebox This episode of The Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by the insulin pump that my daughter wears Omni pod. Learn more and get started today with the Omni pod dash or the Omni pod five at my link Omni pod.com/juicebox podcast perfect. Yeah, perfect. Thank you. I was making a post for the for the Facebook page while you were talking. So hold on. I'm not quite done. Let me just finish. No worries. People are like how do you do all this? And the answer is I have two computers and I'm constantly doing two things at the same time.

Heather 2:23
So are you headed to Savannah? Is that when you're going to Atlanta?

Scott Benner 2:26
Yes. We're taking we're picking Arden up? I think I'm supposed to say Arden goes to schooling? Where am I supposed to say Chicago? Yeah. But yeah. But we're going. She was on one time and she's like, tell people I'm going to Chicago

Heather 2:38
and I'm like okay, I did thoroughly enjoy her episode. Oh, thank

Scott Benner 2:42
you. She'll be back at some point. She'll be home soon. So yeah, we're going to so this started out as it started out as we're going to just record Heather. Okay, is that fine? We can just keep talking perfectly. Okay. So we'll introduce you in a minute. It started out as Arden has a car at school, and she's coming home. And that went to my wife going I don't like her driving all that way by herself for the first time. And I said, okay, and I was like, Well, what's your plan? She said, I'm going to drive down and drive back with her. And I said, Wait, you're going to drive down and then just tandem drive back with her? She's like, Yeah, I'm like, I mean, that's still driving alone. Now you're driving it to. And we had it all set up. She was going to drive like halfway. And then we were gonna put her in a hotel like not like a CD, like people get murdered hotel, like a decent place where she could sleep the night and then you know, finish up. And Kelly's like, No, I don't I don't I don't want her to do that alone. I was like, Well, why don't you fly down and drive back with her. So we told Arden that aren't goes I need all the space in my car. I can't bring a person. I have a lot of clothes to transport home and I'm like, okay, so I said to my wife, well, I'm not let you do that. So I'll drive you down there. And then you can we'll I don't know what the hell like but I'm not, you know, I'll go with you. So it's funny. Yeah. So anyway, we're telling my son and my son's like, oh, you know, the Phillies are in town that week. So if you guys just left two days earlier, you could go to a Phillies game with me hanging out, I have a day off, etc. So that's nice. So we're going to so now we're we're driving to Atlanta tomorrow, and then spending the evening getting up the next day hanging out going to the ballgame. Then we wake up on Friday morning, he's got to go back to work right away. So we're going from Atlanta to Savannah, then that's like a four hour drive still. And then we're going to spend a couple of days in Savannah while Arden finishes up like we're just going to relax a little bit there. And then help her pack up and put her stuff in storage and she's actually storing stuff and bringing stuff home. And basically

Heather 4:50
your your you are taking this trip. So you can say you were a good husband. That's pretty much why

Scott Benner 4:57
well Heather, I like the way you say that because I'm the I couldn't get that credit here. But it's

Heather 5:02
exactly what my husband did when I went skydiving, that is exactly what he went with you. Well, he went, and the whole time we were driving there, he said, I can't believe you're gonna jump out of a plane. We have two kids at home, and all of this, and I was putting my suit on and getting everything ready. And I look over there, and he's taking everything out of his pockets. And he's stepping on the scale, because you have to weigh before and I said, Babe, what are you doing? And he said, What kind of husband whatever, you let my wife jump out of a plane, and I may not do it with her.

Scott Benner 5:39
He realized you didn't have any life insurance. He's like, I might as well jump out a plane. So if I gotta take care of the kids by myself, I'm gonna wish I was dead. So no. Yeah, I mean, it's funny. Like, I don't think of it that way. But it would be nice if someone else did once in a while. Like, hey, you're doing a nice thing here. I appreciate it. Yeah, I think my wife has high expectations. I think I'm just doing what she expects of me. I don't know what I'd have to do to to like to get like a up from her. I'm not sure

Heather 6:13
that's got to be what at least a 12 hour drive.

Scott Benner 6:15
Oh, it's for its for it. It ends up being 14. Yeah, it's terrible. And nonstop and in South Carolina. People can't drive. And it slows everything down that way. And by the way, what I mean by that is it's like, they won't speed up or change lanes. It's very methodical. Like here's where Lana is the same way. Well, Atlanta is like, well, actually, Atlanta is like that video game where you like beat people up on the street. It's insane. I the last time I was in Atlanta, I saw this is not a lie. I was in Atlanta for, I want to say four days. We went down. It was hard and spring break. Arden went over to Atlanta, Arden Kelly and I stayed in the hotel and we hung out with Cole for four days. Then we went back to Savannah set Arden up for school and came home. Ice saw two I am not over exaggerating hit and run accidents in Atlanta in four days. And one of them, one of them was an SUV. So we were stuck in traffic. There was a car and an SUV behind it. And I was behind the SUV to the right. So I had like a full view of what was happening with them. The SUV got I don't know what like none of us were going very far. But they saw a gap in the left lane. And they tried to shoot the gap. So they cut the wheel hard and drove over the back left corner of the car in front of them. Like hit it went up and over it and then continue driving. Well, and I about a half a mile later saw a police officer on the side of the road who was there for the construction. And I pulled over and I like said hello. And he's looked at me and like I kept my hands up. I was like hi. And I was like there's a black SUV. It's this kind of car. It's only right there. I pointed I'm like it's right there. It just was involved in a hit and run. They were the hit the cars behind us about a half a mile. It's it can't move. And I'm telling you that car was just involved that hit and run. If you stop it, you will see a ton of damage on the front of the car. And he goes, That's not what I'm here for. Oh, well. I was like, wait, what? And I said I don't understand. I said like, I think I have the plate. And he goes, Yeah, I'm just here for the construction. Nice. And I was like, Well what about the car that's disabled behind us? And he goes they'll call nine one. Like, obviously I all I could think was but you're here. And he Yeah, he did not care. I was like, okay, heat. Well, I think he was like, buddy, this is Atlanta. Keep moving or I'll hit you with my car. So anyway, my son tells me constantly about how terrible the driving is there.

Heather 9:15
I do hate to drive through Atlanta, we go frequently. We're bad to go just for the weekend to Atlanta because it's about three hours from here. But I do hate the traffic driving through there. Great

Scott Benner 9:28
City really nice on my son seems like he enjoys it enough and all that stuff. But yeah, anyway, and it literally drove up over the car. And the other one was just two people in the middle of the road screaming at each other and they just run into each other. And then while they were yelling, one of them just got in the car and drove away. I was like Ah, okay, okay. This is how we're doing it now. Anyway. Heather, why are you on the show? Do you have diabetes? Does your kid have diabetes? What's the situation

Heather 9:59
I do not. My daughter has diabetes and back in I think it was August. I may have been on your books for quite a while. I cannot remember if it was you or maybe someone in the group had posted a question about were there any nurses or doctors who missed their child's diagnosis. Okay. And I commented on there that went last, her name is Liza. And when Lazar was diagnosed, I had been a nurse for 15 years. And I missed it, but so did it took three trips and three different MDS before it was called. So not only did I miss it, but two other doctors missed it before she was in. Which I know we'll get to that. But when Lazar was finally diagnosed, I had multiple doctors tell me that she would not walk out of the hospital. So she was very sick by the time it was actually found figured it

Scott Benner 10:58
out. So when is when's the first time on a timeline? That you realize something's wrong, but you don't know what it is. Today's episode of The Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by Omni pod. And before I tell you about Omni pod, the device, I'd like to tell you about Omni pod, the company. I approached Omni pod in 2015 and asked them to buy an ad on a podcast that I hadn't even begun to make yet. Because the podcast didn't have any listeners, all I could promise them was that I was going to try to help people living with type one diabetes. And that was enough for Omni pod. They bought their first ad. And I use that money to support myself while I was growing the Juicebox Podcast. You might even say that Omni pod is the firm foundation of the Juicebox Podcast. And it's actually the firm foundation of how my daughter manages her type one diabetes every day. Omni pod.com/juicebox whether you want the Omni pod five, or the Omni pod dash, using my link, lets Omni pod know what a good decision they made in 2015 and continue to make to this day. Omni pod is easy to use, easy to fill, easy to wear. And I know that because my daughter has been wearing one every day since she was four years old. And she will be 20 this year. There is not enough time in an ad for me to tell you everything that I know about Omni pod. But please take a look. Omni pod.com/juice box, I think Omni pod could be a good friend to you. Just like it has been to my daughter and my family. We

Heather 12:40
were actually it's funny. We were actually on vacation in Florida in August of 2020. And Lazarus started just saying she didn't feel good. And I was like well, we're at the beach. We're at the beach all day long. And, um, yes, she was thirsty. But hindsight, I don't think it was enough for us to, for it to really be more than it being Florida hate in August, and we're outside all day long, that kind of thing. And she complained of her, her belly hurting. And Lazar has has always had some reflux issues. So we just attributed it to, oh, she's got some reflux going on. And then her throat started hurting, which is not abnormal for her, usually her stomach would hurt and then she would sometimes throw up and then she would have strep throat that has been Laza for years. So that went on for maybe a day and a half, two days. And so the next day I got up and I told my husband, I said I'm gonna run her to urgent care. Because if it is strep throat, we need to get some antibiotics. And it was right in the middle of COVID. Nobody was seeing anybody. So we were in a town, we did not know what and we go to urgent care. And of course, they immediately are like, this sounds like COVID And I'm like she doesn't even Okay, if that's what you guys think. So, they didn't even do a strep test or blood test or anything. They told me that it was viral, most likely, and possibly COVID to watch her. And so I was like, okay, so we went back to our condo. And she progressively that was on a Wednesday, Friday. I when I got up that morning I told my husband I said we're going home. Something's not right. She's sick. This is miserable. We're going to we're going to pack our things up and we're going home. So we did and on the way home. She was just just sleepy. But she just kept saying My throat hurts mama mouth throat hurts. And so we stopped at an a different urgent care have almost halfway home. Because at this point I would really was concerned that this might be COVID because she was starting to have some of the COVID symptom. She was tired her her nose was running. She it was just not your typical strep throat sickness for her. Yeah. And so we got to that urgent care. And he's like, oh, yeah, I think this definitely is COVID. So he swapped her for COVID. And it was of course, at that point in time they there, they did not have rapid test in the building, everything had to be sent off. So he also swapped her for strip and the strip was negative. And he did bloodwork cons that again is 2020. He but they only did a CBC. If only they would have done a cmp. Right, then they would have seen in glucose. But they didn't. They just done the CBC and of course her white count was elevated. At that point in time, the COVID treatment was a zitter, Meissen and prednisone. So here we go, we leave there and we go to the local pharmacy there and get her antibiotics and her steroids. And she gets one dose of steroids and her antibiotic and we make it home. And we spend the night at home, we get everything and she's still just so tired. So tired.

Scott Benner 16:35
Yeah, the inset the steroid didn't kick her up at all. Hmm. I'd like to thank Dexcom for sponsoring this episode of The Juicebox Podcast. And at the same time, I want to remind you that seeing your blood glucose levels in real time, not only the number, but the speed and the direction is going to help you in ways that you maybe can't imagine right now. You should definitely check it out at dexcom.com/juicebox.

Heather 17:00
Oh, no. And then Saturday, she gets her second dose of steroids and per antibiotic. And she she's more thirsty, I guess. But she's like, I'm not really hungry. Mom, I just want something to drink. And of course, she's drinking Kool Aid. Because I mean, you know, it's summer. And that's what we had in the fridge and all this stuff. And fast forward to Sunday morning around three. And she wakes me up and she's standing by my bed. She says Mom, I can't breathe. And when I look at her, I immediately know something's wrong. And of course now she was actually doing like that. The classic DKA respiration.

Scott Benner 17:44
Koosman respirations. But you thought she was yeah, you thought COVID was killing her? Right?

Heather 17:50
Yes, yeah. Yes, I did. 100% Because at this point in time, and again, I'll pause there for a second Lhasa did not really she was not wetting the bed. She'd had not lost weight. It was not typical. Yeah, though, on set. But I did this past week, I went to the hospital and I asked for Lazarus records because I wanted to be able to look at them more in depth before you and I spoke today. And in May of 2020, Lazar had to have any emergency appendectomy, which was three months before she was diagnosed. And her glucose in May of 2020. Her fasting glucose, because this was at 4am. This would have been when she woke up in the middle of the night was 124. And that's not really I mean, I know that that's not extremely high, but handsets. 2020. I think, you

Scott Benner 18:49
know, also with any with an illness, you could write that off to Yes.

Heather 18:54
And that's what I told my husband I said, you know, I don't think the doctors missed anything because she was sick. She was we had to have her appendix out quickly. And so her whole body was an overdrive at that point. So she didn't have that in May. And then she had a horrible strep throat infection in June, back to back from her appendectomy. So all of that went on. But back to August, when she woke us up. I immediately told my husband we've got we've got to go to the hospital. And when we got to the end of our road, like I said, we kind of live in a rural area, the closest hospitals 35, maybe 40 minutes from us. My husband said, okay, we can either drive an hour and go to this bigger hospital or we can drive the 3540 minutes here, and I said she'll never make it an hour. So we went to the smaller hospital. And when we got there, we pulled under the awning. And of course they're all at The door you know, they want you bound and masked and they want you their temperature checked and all this. And when they saw Eliza and me dragging her through trying to get her out of the car, nobody asked us to put a mask on. Nobody took her temperature. She went, she was triaged quickly, in the front of the ER and they immediately took her to the back. And the ER physician actually came in her room. Immediately I, I would say that we were not in a room, two minutes before he came in. And when he came in, he was asking me questions, and he was assessing her without a mask or anything, he was all in her face, which seems so crazy, you know, to think about, but at that point in time, everybody was so obsessed with masks and all of this. So I love that he saw how sick she was. And he didn't indicate it and think about that. He just was a doctor in the moment. Yeah. Immediately. He says, How many of the glucometer. And this was a hospital that I previously worked at. And we knew each other. And I looked at him and I said, Are you crazy? And he said, Heather, give me just a second. And I'll it was say was hi. When hate when I went oh, and then it was like a ton of bricks when you see that number. And he's like, where he asked where my husband was. And I said, hey, they won't let him in. Only one person. He's in the parking lot with our son. We drove we got him out of bed. And he said he needs to take him to grandparents and come back because she's in DKA. And at that point, I'm just what DKA she has COVID You know, that's literally in my in my brain when I'm thinking and then it all starts coming together. By the time we got to the hospital. Lhasa was unresponsive. And I was doing sternal rubs on her just to get her to open her as and they came in and did a course a whole bunch of bloodwork and everything and her her lab drawl. Her blood sugar was 760. And they did the arterial blood, blood gases, and her Ph which was 6.7. And when that's non compatible with life, and I know that is she was so acidotic by the time I got her to the hospital, we got there. So he comes back in and he consults the Children's Hospital closest to us in Birmingham, he tells us that they've accepted her, they have sent orders that for them to start titrating, insulin and everything to try to get her blood sugar down. But they wanted to start her on mannitol and mannitol, if you're not aware of what that is, mannitol is a job that's given to decrease brain swelling. So they gave they started that, and then my husband is sitting at this point, he's back. And I understand what they're saying, because of my medical knowledge. And he, he's kind of really taken aback by it. So for the first time, in our marriage of at that point, I don't know even know how long we have been married 16 years, maybe I was having to be the strong one for him, because I knew what all this meant. And he didn't. And I was having to take all this in. So he comes back in and he tells us once they get all the lab results back, and they send those to Children's Hospital, that Children's Hospital, called back and said that Lazar was not stable enough for their helicopter that they were sending their jet to the airport. So that was kind of mind boggling to hear those words. Because you've mediately anybody associated submit a VAC helicopter with urgent? I don't know that I've ever known of a jet to come but um, so basically Lazar was she got two doses of mannitol while she was at the emergency room, and we waited and we traded insulin and everything with her for the most part unresponsive. She would wake up after like I said sternal rubs and I would do my best to ask, Do you know who you are? Do you know who I am? Those kinds of questions and it would take eight to 10 times for her and then she would finally get it right to tell me who she was or who I was. So when they the transport team got there she actually Lily children's transport team picked her up and they rode in an ambulance from the emergency room to the airport. And then she flew, and a jet from the airport to Birmingham, Alabama. And then the Children's Hospital helicopter picked her up at the airport and flew her across town to the hospital. Where

Scott Benner 25:22
you were there we were. No,

Heather 25:23
we were not allowed to go.

Scott Benner 25:25
How did you get there?

Heather 25:26
We drove. And then it's about from where we were about two and a half hours by car.

Scott Benner 25:33
That's terrible. Did you have any communication while you were separated?

Heather 25:38
So I am a firm believer, and my faith is very important to me. It always has been. And I believe that people are put in your path for a reason. And that day, that particular day in the emergency room, one of a very good friend of mine was the emergency room nurse that day, charge nurse, and she stayed with us. And when they were getting Lazar ready to leave in the ambulance to go to the airport. Her name is Jessica Jessica came to me and she said, Heather, you know that it's two and a half hours. And I said I know but I can't leave her. And she said, Well, the ambulance is going to have to backtrack to get to the airport because the airport was in the opposite direction from where I would be going to try to get to Birmingham. She said I promise I will not leave her. I promise I will stay by her side until she is loaded, if you if but you need to get on the road so you can get ahead of them. And you can track Yeah. And that's probably the hardest thing I've ever had to do. But imagine to leave her like that. I was in constant communication with Jessica, I knew she was I knew she was in good hands, I knew that there was nothing I could do on the on the jet. All I wouldn't be doing was standing there waiting on them to load her in the ambulance to go get on the jet. So Jessica stayed, and my husband and I live to be able to try to get ahead of them. I can't remember a whole lot. I'll be honest about the drive to Birmingham, I do know that I called a friend of mine who's also a nurse whose son has type one. And I just needed to talk to someone who was there. And she her name's Nikki and Nikki really encouraged me through the way she told me that I knew what I was doing that I was just going to have to trust that she would be taken care of and everything. And when we got to Birmingham, we had to go through all kinds of security and safety measures because of COVID. Of course, before we could actually get to the PICU that when we were walking into the PICU doors, the flight crew was walking out. Lhasa had not been there long. By the time we got there. When we got there, it was to me, I don't know what my husband would say. But in my opinion, it was more overwhelming than the ER, because there she's in the bay, they have a gallon owner, she's unresponsive. She has IV lines everywhere, going and everything. And it was just that part was overwhelming. And our Children's Hospital is also a teaching hospital. So there are tons of residents and fellows that are there, rounding and of course learning and everything. So Steven and I had only been there probably not even five minutes and the PICU doctor came in. And I will never forget her. Because she come in and she introduced herself. And she's told us in my career. I've had two children sicker than your daughter, and neither one walked out of here. And that was a lot to take in to hear in that moment. But she was very blunt with us at the time. I did not appreciate but I guess now she had to do that because she didn't want because you're

Scott Benner 29:27
Why do you think I mean, I don't see the value in it. Like do you think she was trying to get you ready for lies that a die?

Heather 29:34
I think so. Um, I think there was more than one reason I think because clinically, her numbers quote unquote, were not compatible with life. And if she were to recover, clinically, there would be brain damage and there were lots of conversations had and I get that I think I probably look at that different than my husband and my Maybe even even you because the nurse and me like the clinically the clinical side of it. I'm also I'm not a nurse who likes to give bad news, obviously. But I also do like facts. I can appreciate her. I think she probably could have handled it a little better than when she did, though. And then the way she did, because we were already overwhelmed. Of course, it was, but I take that. And then like I said, I read for the first time, Scott, this, I have not had the nerve, I guess, to actually read the nurses and doctors notes from the emergency room that morning. But I went this week and asked for those records. So I could look at those. And I wanted to read those and kind of refresh my mind from maybe something I had forgotten or something from then and my husband and I were sitting last night at the table looking over them. And it's hard when you read a doctor's notes and you read him write the word death or die in his notes. And that was in Lazarus notes multiple times from that morning. I don't think there were very few people who expected Liza to recover. And I don't think they expected her. I don't maybe they expected her to recover. But I don't think they I think they expected her to have some kind of neurological deficit after

Scott Benner 31:35
Yeah. What what context were the words used in in the report.

Heather 31:41
So I actually can go get those, if any, if I need to. So basically, in his notes, he had an he had to make a note because it was critical assessment of an adolescent under 13. That was how he they had it had to be worse or how he worded it. But basically, he said that after he got the arterial blood gases back and compare those with her symptoms and everything going on, that the outcome could could result in death. And because her her carbon dioxide was 10. I think that I think they will I don't think I know, they based a lot of those decisions on clinical values, of course, and her symptoms, because she presented I mean, when we got to the emergency room, you could you could barely keep her awake, you couldn't. You couldn't get a whole lot out of her. And then in the PICU when we got to Birmingham, I mean, she was completely unresponsive when we got there. And then I did read in the note, which was surprising to me that her blood sugar dropped from 760 to 430. And they stopped her insulin drip. I started her and that was when they made the decision to start her back on mannitol. Because her she had perked up a little bit. When they first started the insulin. And she was she actually asked the doctor for something to drink. And then all of a sudden her neurological status changed in the next 30 minutes or so. And they consulted the children's hospital and they said that her blood sugar was dropping too fast that we need until they actually started her insulin drip back at a lower dose and they added fluid that had glucose in it to try to help not bring her down so fast. I really think that the second dose of mannitol just based off of what our conversations have been with her endocrinologist and her team at Children's Hospital was more precautionary than the first dose the first dose was specifically given because they truly suspected brain swelling, right because of the way she presented the second dose. I really feel like was almost preventative just because of the symptoms she was presenting at that time. So yeah, so that was that was how we got to the PICU Yeah,

Scott Benner 34:25
Heather, that's the longest I haven't talked on this podcast in a long time. That was really well I'm sorry for that. Oh, you made me cry three different times. I was glad to not be talking. Yes, something else.

Heather 34:38
I don't cry anymore. And I didn't cry. I actually didn't cry for a while. I think I was in survival mode. And the first time that I looked at Lazarus record and I saw some of her numbers that was very hard for me. Because of the I think it's the nurse and me because clinical trial, we just talked about the clinical aspect of it. I know what those numbers mean, if you read them in a textbook, and again, I have, like I said earlier, my faith is very important to me. My church is very important to me. God is important to me. I truly believe that Liza is and and let me just say that I know we haven't finished the pick up story. But Liza is 100%. All girl. She has zero neurological deficits. She plays basketball. She plays softball, she does gymnastics. There is absolutely nothing that she can't do. She puts her mind to it, and she does it.

Scott Benner 35:42
she ever talk Heather about it? Like, what is it like to know you? You just about died?

Heather 35:49
Actually, yes, um, she was I don't think we even discussed this in the beginning. But Liza was seven when she was diagnosed. And she's 10 now. So a lot of losses, day to day routine. She doesn't I don't think she necessarily remembers a whole lot of life, pre diabetes, because she was seven. There are certain there are certain things that she remembers, but this podcast was told to me or recommended to me while we were in the PICU. And I started in the hospital, listening to you. And I 100% my my endo team knows. My family know, my friends know, my church knows this podcast you, Ginni. The people that come on and speak changed the way I managed Lazarus diabetes 100% I don't think Lazarus life would be as carefree as it is right now. Had I not found your podcast? Ad? I do not think it would be like it is because yes, the pro tips are, are wonderful. The every the Scott and genies are wonderful. The afterdark are wonderful, every bit of that is great. But sometimes it is just hearing other parents, or even type ones themselves, talk about what works for them, what doesn't work for them. And one of the first episodes I listened to, and I don't know if it was the best thing or the worst thing, but I listened to Bo with insulin first. Out of everything, and I made my mind up then that I was going to be in control of lies is diabetes, not her doctors, that I'm the one who lives I will listen to them. And out and I will listen to what they have to say and take, you know advice. But ultimately, I'm the one who was with her every day. And so as far as Lhasa goes, we have discussed that she knows I have not held anything back from her will ask she'll ask questions to Steven or myself and we'll ask her. And if you were if you were to ask Laza if she were home today, what she thinks about her diagnosis story, or all of that. I can 99.9% with certainty tell you that she would say God saved her for a reason. And it's to tell other people about him. His mercy and His grace. Because in like I said, our faith is very important to us. And clinically. I should have planned a funeral Scott. But I didn't.

Scott Benner 38:47
You're making me very emotional today. I think there's something going on in my life with somebody I care about and I don't feel like I'm helping them enough. No, no. And then you you spoke about the podcast and I don't usually I usually keep a very healthy distinction between the podcast and me. And just now when you were talking it hit me more like like I helped and mail you did me upset so not upset in a bad way in a nice way but your story and then you hit me with that and I was like, Jesus, Heather I'm gonna cry in here.

Heather 39:29
Well don't I mean, no, thank you. And I don't want to know

Scott Benner 39:33
it's very listen. It's very it's lovely what you said and I swear to you on 99 Other days, I would have made some silly joke and been like oh yeah, of course I helped I'm terrific. But today I just was like oh maybe I really do help people and it was it just felt nice. So thank you you do

Heather 39:52
for and I can tell you that I have Lazarus endocrinologist is actually a type one herself. And you've helped her. We have actually discussed several things. And I have recommended the podcast to her and she actually has a list of certain episodes that she will use for newly diagnosed patients.

Scott Benner 40:15
That's wonderful. Please thank her. I appreciate that very much. Gonna call your episode drive to Birmingham, by the way.

Heather 40:23
Nice. Hey, that's better than what my work family said.

Unknown Speaker 40:27
So what did they say?

Heather 40:29
They said you would name it country as cornbread.

Scott Benner 40:34
I don't know. I find your accent soothing. So don't worry. I'm all good, right? Yeah. Country is cornbread. I don't know how you can tell that story. And then I'd make a joke about it. But no, I just to me, it's, I mean, you know, like, the first time you got me, you said you didn't think she could make the extra 20 minutes to the other hospital. And then thinking about leaving her, so that you could be there when she arrived? And I thought you must have thought, but what if I'm saying goodbye to her? Oh, 100% Yeah. And then what if she dies while she's not with me is the other thing I thought and then that was very upsetting. I had a I had a hard enough time leaving my kid at like, you know, in a safe apartment in Atlanta. And you're talking about doing that? That's one of those. Your your perspective levels up that day? You know, I bet you don't fuss with silly things. I don't know. I don't know. But you've you got different perspective than a lot of people do. That's really something else and then it then she's okay. And like, you know, it's 100% Why you're telling the story. It's like watching that movie with. With Leonardo, that Titanic movie, where I'm like, Oh, my God, I know how this ends, you know, but still, I felt like I was on pins and needles. And I haven't finished

Heather 42:01
story is definitely not for the faint of heart. It really is. No, I haven't

Scott Benner 42:05
felt like this since DK on a plane. Have you ever heard that episode? Yes,

Heather 42:09
I did. Yeah, that I listened to that. We took a 13 day road trip out west. And I listened to that while I was driving out there.

Scott Benner 42:18
Yes, man, she told that story. And then we get to the point where the doctor is from a different country. So they misread the numbers and like if they do the wrong thing for the kid, and I'm like, having a conversation with somebody who I am fully aware, their child is fine. And, and I'm listening to the story and like it was making me crazy. And then I put it online and people or people had the same reaction like that was incredibly intense. And it's it's, it's not as much about what said, it's a it's more about what you imagine is being felt while you're listening to the story. And that's your story is really good. I swear to you like the breakdown on this is going to be Heather spoke 80% of the time, Scott was 20 and 10%. Of that's going to be me putting in the ads and like saying stuff like Welcome to the Juicebox Podcast. Oh, and I'm happy about it. That was really well told. I think there's something about the blend of your, your medical background with the fact that you were involved in the situation with your daughter, and you just told it very, very well. Do you tell people this a lot? Or is this the first time you're saying this?

Heather 43:24
I actually won't before I answer that. I am sorry that I have. I think I jumped around a lot.

Scott Benner 43:30
Oh, no, no, I'm good. Don't worry about that. I am the way I think of the podcast. Heather is. Have you ever seen Pulp Fiction? The movie? Yes. Yeah. You know how Travolta is alive, that he's dead, that he's on the toilet. That's how I think of this podcast. Don't worry. I like that very much. I like the way it keeps people. I think I think it keeps people engaged while you're talking. So I'm happy with them.

Heather 43:53
Yes. If the answer to your question is yes, I have. I have told this story to several people. I use it. Most people like I said, we live in a very small town. So and when I say small Scott, I mean, that pre K you

Scott Benner 44:12
don't have all the ingredients for the cornbread together, go out and buy it somewhere else.

Heather 44:15
I don't even have a grocery store in my town. Yeah, well, pre K through 12th graders in one building. And there's about 550 kids were tiny. We live we're very small. So most people here know Liza, they know her story. I have had the opportunity twice. friends on Facebook, that are military. They had actually an Air Force wife. She was her daughter was diagnosed. And so my friend reached out to me and asked me what I be willing to talk to her and I did. I was able to do that and of course immediately recommended juicebox and she and I still communicate back and forth. With that, there's been several other instances with people where I've gotten random Facebook messages or even text messages. I have used it. Again, this is Lazarus story, obviously. But there are several things that have happened along the journey that have helped me. I know I've said it 100 times, but I'm not sorry for it. My faith is important. And Lazar had been diagnosed about six months, maybe before I actually looked at her, her lab work and everything. And I was just looking at looking at it. And it did upset me. I think I told you that just a second ago. But I heard slash felt, the Lord tell me that all of that we had fertility issues with Lhasa, we struggled to have her. And as the amount of pace I had, in that moment, I heard plain as day your fertility struggles were preparing you for today. Because when Lazar was diagnosed, I needed to know that you would trust me and not doctors, that you would put your trust and your faith in me. And I needed to know that you could do that. And I have looked at that at different since that day. This is just a journey. Lazarus whole story from conception till now, from the fertility to everything. And it's helped people, a lot of people struggle with not just diabetes. I mean, people's mental health is real. People struggle with all kinds of things. And if I can be a light for anybody, just that tailoring the struggles we've been through and how we've overcome them overcame them than I have succeeded. That's all I want. That's, that's all I want from any of this, even today. I've been so nervous about doing this really with you. Yes. Well,

Scott Benner 47:09
I'm not even talking.

Heather 47:13
That's what my husband said. He said, You know, you're gonna just start talking. I know.

Scott Benner 47:18
Okay, that's, that's good. It's a podcast, we need people talking. It's

Heather 47:22
been fun. You know, as far as like, our when we we left the PICU. And here we go back doing another turn around. She was in pick you for a day and a half. And then she moved to step down. And then we were we were sent home. Wow.

Scott Benner 47:38
I quit three days from death's door to home in three days. Yeah, that's crazy. Good for her. That's wonderful. Yeah, good for all of you. You know, it strikes me that I'd be remiss if I didn't bring up. So this is three years ago.

Heather 47:54
Almost August will be three years. You've been

Scott Benner 47:56
listening to me for like three years. Yeah, you know, I'm not a religious person. You don't care, right?

Heather 48:01
I don't Yeah,

Scott Benner 48:03
I love that. I love I don't care. By the way. I mean, cares the word wrong word. Like I don't have a thought in the world about how people like worship or anything like that.

Heather 48:12
I know. And I respect that. Because you I love that you have been open about that, that you don't you don't stop people from sharing their faith or, or whatever you let us talk how we want to talk. No, I'm

Scott Benner 48:24
just I'm very impressed. Because I've had people like say, I'm not gonna listen anymore. Because you said that, or when Arden did her episode. I think Arden like flat out says she doesn't believe in God, right. And in one of our episodes, and I had a lot of pushback from a few people about that. And they're like, I'm not listening to this anymore. And I was like, Oh, I'm sorry. I'm like, I really think it's gonna help you with your diabetes. But if that five seconds is gonna stop you from being helped I, you know, it's there's nothing I can do about it. But now it was just very, like, I'm happy for people to share how they feel. I think that's what the point of this is, like, I don't I wouldn't understand just bringing people on who like flat out agreed with everything I thought or vice versa. It doesn't make any sense. So I'm just sure really lovely.

Heather 49:09
And at the end of the day, Scott, like religion aside. My goal, you know, like, like I said, I knew that you're that you're not religious at all, just based on the last three years of listening to you. I can't let that stop me. And what I believe you know, yeah,

Scott Benner 49:30
oh, no, I wouldn't want you to I just I'm impressed that you didn't like i It says a lot about you. I think that you listen to that. And then you didn't say Well, I'm not gonna listen to him. He doesn't he's not aligned with me on other things that are important to me, because it doesn't matter. Like if I understand one thing and you know, and but also

Heather 49:47
thought you got to look at it from my way too. That would not be Christlike. Thank you. Yes, that would not be cross like for me to to say no, I can't affiliate with him because he doesn't believe the same way I do, right?

Scott Benner 50:01
I'm a heathen and I deserve to be saved just like everybody else. Right? Heather?

Heather 50:06
Christ. Yes. He

Scott Benner 50:08
was gonna say god damn right. But I don't think contextually that's the way to go. Very nice. Thank you. It was very nice. Thank you. Wow. So how does I mean three years later? How does Liza manage what does she do? And what are your days like with diabetes?

Heather 50:24
Well, she's G six and Omnipod. Five. We actually just had our endo appointment and her I would say SparkPoint nine. Oh, wow. Good for you. So her original I didn't I don't think I said her diagnosis at diagnosis. She was 10.2. Yeah, I

Scott Benner 50:41
was gonna say. So she

Heather 50:43
stopped point nine. Now we're still pre pubescent. So we haven't started a whole lot of hormones and everything yet. I'm actually researching looping. I have a lot of questions that I can't get answered yet. My endocrinologist is completely on board if we, if we want. I love Omnipod five, let me say that yeah, I just kind of like I think your experience with art and I wish the target was lower. I'm overriding more probably more than the algorithm likes for me too, when it comes to that, but I mean, our knights are perfect her are not. I mean, that in itself is been worth it all. For her. Now, I'm also an advocate at I don't even know if this matters, but I'm going to tell you anyway. So Lazar was on dash, of course. And when Omni pod fab made their release last spring, that the lip will in January, I think it was the limited release. And then in May is when they actually did a full public release for the Omni pod factory. That's

Scott Benner 51:48
about right. Yeah.

Heather 51:49
I sent an email to Lhasa has a patient advocate through our private insurance company. And I sent an email to her and I said, Hey, what do I need to do to get this added to the formulary? Because it's added? It's open to the public. Now it's full release. And she said, Oh, well, we'll just have to do a authorization. I said, Okay. So we went through the whole ordeal, getting the endocrinologist to spill everything out and all that. And then our insurance company comes back and says, No, we're not even we're not this is to new is in limited release. We can't do that. And I was like, oh, no, you did. So as I emailed the actual link from Omni pod, where they had full FDA clearance to the CEO, of our insurance company, and I said, I don't know who you pay to figure these things out for you when you make decisions that affect people's livelihoods. But you might want to get them to do better research, because here's the link where this Omnipod five is fully released by the FDA. And so it was so funny. The next morning, there was a company wide email sent out that said, not only are we going to approve the Omnipod, five, but you don't even have to have an authorization for it. We're just going to put it on our formulary. Wow, Heather.

Scott Benner 53:17
I know good for you.

Heather 53:19
Well, and it's sad, because most people would have took them at their word.

Scott Benner 53:25
Yeah, that's what happens. And it just takes it takes time for them to catch up. Like it seems so obvious from your perspective, like you know, at home, and you're getting this things out, you've been watching it and waiting for it to come and you think well, how could they not know about it, but they sometimes they don't. And the companies, it's kind of the company's job. You wouldn't think this, but it's a company's job to kind of go door to door with the insurance companies and say, hey, look, we got this new thing out here. Here's what it is. Here's like, and that's time consuming. And man, a lot of manpower. And some of the, you know, it

Heather 53:56
was and it was, you know, it was funny. I mean, it was my effort is aggravated as I was in the moment because the information was wrong. I'm so thankful now because people don't like other people, other children, their parents are not going to have to find it. They can just get the prescription for it and go the pharmacy and pick it up. Yeah,

Scott Benner 54:19
that's really that's a really kind of thing. Yeah, I mean, he did it for yourself, obviously, which was terrific, but it does end up helping a lot of people. And that's pretty cool. I listen. I told a story a long time ago, very, very long time ago about Arden getting an insulin pump when she was four. And I completely bucked the system at the hospital they did not like they tried hard not to get me to even get in on the pod. They didn't know anything about it. It was new they I think they were scared of it etc. And I was just ignored them. I went with my gut, took it and you know, never looked back and it took them almost two years. But like two years later, they pulled me aside and apologized for trying to derail me from it said They just didn't know anything about and it was hard to support for them. And that because of art and success on Omni pod, they started to prescribe it at a major Children's Hospital in the East Coast. And I've always felt really good about that. You know, we

Heather 55:14
have a similar story with that, because if it had been left up to our endo team, you know, they wanted Liza to wait six months for her Dexcom. And they wanted a year for her pomp. And so Lazar was diagnosed in August, she had her Dexcom in September, because I went and I said, she doesn't have to have any. There's no requirements by my insurance, I just need a script for it. That's it. And then her pump took a little longer, because of COVID. They were only doing three people at a three or four people at a time for the pump training class. So she but she started her pump in March, so around six months. I mean, it was not long after we were pumping, we were not in VR very long. And actually, it's because of an episode that you had. I cannot remember the name of it now. But so you interviewed somebody. Or it may have even been you when when Arlen Trad fiasco? I think, so that we've been on? Yes, ever since we have we dropped Nova login, went to the ASP, and it changed everything to that in itself helped a lot. With managing her.

Scott Benner 56:26
I would love the honestly, I would love it. If Arden could use it. It just, you know, it doesn't agree with her very well. But yeah, I mean, faster is, obviously it changes everything, you don't have to Pre-Bolus as long, you know, it digs into the spikes, it's all great. Listen, this is this is the value of this medium is sharing in a way that, you know, doesn't have to be immediate and meaning like when people put video up, like video has a very short window like it hits and people watch it and then it kind of stops and audios great because it's it's not intrusive, you can listen while you're driving or you know, any number of other things that you can't do while you're watching video. And it's just it's great that keep having all of these conversations about your daughter's diagnosis, and what insulin works for you. And I mean, you know, you're doing great with on the pod five. But But here's what I have to do to make it work. And these conversations need to keep happening so that people can find them over and over again. And this is wonderful. It's a wonderful thing. I'm a little stuck on this morning before when I recorded with you I had a business call. And and I and we were talking about do you really want to know what I was talking about? Whether I think I'll tell you. So I've seen sometimes companies do these things where they put a lot of effort and time and money into producing these videos that they put up on YouTube, right. And once in a while I'll look on one of them are and you know, they ended up having like, you know, 30 views or 110 views or something like that. And I think all that money and time and I see people wearing makeup, and there's good lighting and how long it must have taken to edit all this so that 100 people could see the video and I think just come on the podcast, I'll get you to 10s of 1000s of people in like in a like a snap of a finger. And and yet they're like, Oh no, we want to go waste a bunch of money over here. Okay, that's great. But you know, whatever, like it's fine. I think sometimes audio, it ebbs and flows. And not I'm not I'm certainly not complaining the podcast is doing terrific. But I think it can feel old to people at times like oh, that's been around forever podcasts like yeah, it works. That's why it's a valuable way to get information to people and

Heather 58:50
I don't know, I would have never drained because I was prior to August of 2020 I didn't listen to podcasts. I'm

Scott Benner 58:58
amazed you have internet access. Hey, I just thought I would tease you about that one. But if you were nadian We would have never stopped talking about you living in the middle of nowhere Yeah, just it's a great medium for all this like even your story like I don't know like you know, it just it needs to be heard and and this is a great way to do it. I really appreciate you coming on and doing this I and she's just doing so well. Like there's it's such a turnaround from you know, and you know what else I have to say? While you while you were talking? The idea that there's a medication to reduce brain swelling, and there's a medication to bring down your in your blood sugar, and they know that coming the blood sugar coming down too quickly is bad. So then there's a way to infuse glucose to slow it down. And all of the knowledge that people have from all these emergency situations in the past and I don't No, just the the fact that the tubing exists and the and the needles and the infrastructure and the I think it's easy to ignore that it's astonishing that we have a system in place that saved your daughter's life. Like it almost seems unrealistic that that, that a hospital exists like that. And, and yet there it is, and, and no live it absolutely saves lives his life.

Heather 1:00:25
Oh 100%. I mean, I'm thankful for everybody that was involved in her care, I'm thankful for the knowledge that they have that they that, God bless them with, that they were able to

Scott Benner 1:00:39
do it. It also like sometimes it's not angering, but it's, it's, I get that things are too expensive. Don't get me wrong, right. Like, I know, they are all over the place. But people go to college to learn how to do a thing because they want to make a living. And a private company opens up a hospital because you're trying to make a profit. And like and on and on. And if it wasn't for that, that hospital wouldn't be sitting there. Like it just it wouldn't be there. And it wouldn't exist. And there's a way to be like, I don't know why I'm mixing these ideas together. But like, I've just seen so many people say like, oh, everything's too expensive, like, Yeah, but you know what it paid for that institution that sat there when your daughter needed it?

Heather 1:01:21
Well, I can tell you, I never thought I would get a bill for my daughter to have a private jet ride somewhere. But I was not sad to pay that bill. Can

Scott Benner 1:01:33
I Can I ask how much?

Heather 1:01:36
$29,000 Wow, wow.

Scott Benner 1:01:40
But you make 4 million a year. So that's not really a problem. Right, Heather? I mean, that's nothing. Do they take payments? Yes.

Heather 1:01:49
Yes. They didn't have a choice. We're

Scott Benner 1:01:54
gonna send $5 a week. Well, that's it was, um,

Heather 1:01:58
it was good that I mean, you know, it really, um, that's funny that you said that. I mean, the amount of care she received and the amount of meds that she had to have the ambulance, the JIT, the helicopter, I'm actually amazed that my bill wasn't more than that.

Scott Benner 1:02:17
I mean, it's just, it's, it's just that it exists, I think, is the thing that I'm, I'm stunned by, and not because of where you live, but just in general like that. We've built this society. You know, it's fat. It's fantastic that it exists. And I bet that as horrible as it is to pay a $29,000 Uber bill. I bet that while you I bet it's the easiest money you ever send anybody to. Right?

Heather 1:02:45
Yeah, I think that with this is way off course. But I'll say the same thing. We We are partners of hope with St. Jude in Memphis, the St. Jude Children's Hospital. And it's the biggest hospital in the country for for pediatric cancer patients. And I donate blood there. Yeah. And I do that specifically because I know where my blood is going when I do that. And also, the blood donation lab is the same lab as the patient. So as I'm sitting there, having my blood donated, I might see a baby coming in a wagon to get her blood drawn, to see if her cancer is gone. Or something like that. I find peace in that knowing that I'm helping others there. Yeah, but we also send money every month, my husband and I have for 16 years every month to St. Judas bank drafted and everything. And if I never have to enter those doors, as the parent of a patient, it's money well spent. And I'll never regret it at all,

Scott Benner 1:03:53
I think to help bring attention to St. Jude. Yeah, there's, I think now it's like a Netflix doc documentary. But on one of those SpaceX missions to space, they sent they trained a St. Jude nurse, who was as a child of St. Jude patient. And they sent her to space on a mission like they made her into an astronaut so she could go to go to space and to draw like attention to St. Jude at the same time. And I it's a Netflix documentary. I'm going to find out what it's called to tell people. It's really interesting. Yeah, hold on a second. How we who went to space for St. Jude, physician assistant, Haley. I don't know her last name. It's a it's a southern name that I always had trouble like pronouncing even though I know somebody with this last name, AR c e n e a u x. Haley,

Heather 1:04:54
I have no idea.

Scott Benner 1:04:56
She's a pilot. She was a pilot geoscientist. Hold on Again, Jude physician, physician assistant Haley and geoscientists Sian Proctor and aerospace data engineer, Chris and brzowski. They went to drive support the life saving mission of St. Jude Research Hospital continues, they raised the i. So I think the idea was to raise a certain amount of money. With, you know, the efforts they were putting into the training, etc. Of these astronauts, they were really like, publicizing it, trying to drive money to St. Jude. At the end, they didn't, if I'm not mistaken, they didn't raise as much as they wanted. They had a two a $200 million fundraising goal for St. Jude. And they didn't reach it and Elon Musk through and $50 million to push them over the number, because SpaceX is his. His company, I guess. But yeah, they they made this great documentary about it. I'll have to look at that. Yeah, that I watched on Netflix. Let's see. I wish for the life

Heather 1:06:00
I just finished a good a good series on Netflix. Yeah,

Scott Benner 1:06:04
it's called an inspiration for Mission to Space. Oh, countdown inspiration for Mission to Space. It's a, like a five part app. So like a documentary about them. Taking these four people and just making them into astronauts and, and sending them up and St. Jude was a big part of it. So that's nice. Yeah. Yeah. So and Jesus, you're watching it and like $50 million. So first of all, like, again, like you were the airplane ride, it's just chump change to Elon Musk, I'm sure. But, but, but really like, like, just wonderful. Like, he just was like it from what I understand. He's like, Oh, we didn't make the goal. I really, I really wanted us to make that goal here. And he wrote a check for $50 million. So wow, yeah. And it helps all those kids. And I don't have the exact experience that you have. But I can say I rethought. So when I was younger, my daughter was much younger. And art and first had type one, we used to have to go into the city to go to the Children's Hospital. And now there's, there's an annex that we could go to it's closer to our house. But I always found it sad. The Children's Hospital always made me sad. The parents look sad, the kids looked sad, everybody looked tired. And it was hard for me to go there. But I think that was a little bit of my youth too. Like, I wish if I was older, I might have sat there and had more feelings like you had because I have experienced that moving forward as an older person. When I have to go get those when I talk about my iron, like getting an iron transfusion, which I've done a number of times, you are basically in an infusion center where most people are getting chemotherapy. And so it really is, like I've I've described it in the past is it feels like a holy place. Like I'm very, like, quiet and referential. When I'm in there it feels it feels like a I don't know, it just feels like one of those places. So Right. Yeah, I get your point. Anyway, are there? Is there anything we haven't talked about that we should have?

Heather 1:08:07
I don't think so. I mean, I was nervous. I don't know that I should have been because you made it pretty easy.

Scott Benner 1:08:13
I don't know that I did anything but thank you.

Heather 1:08:18
i My goal was to you know, Lazar story is definitely not your typical what I would consider a typical DKA story. And I told it and you know, she's doing great. That was my biggest thing is, you know, I wanted people to know that. Just because it looks horrible in the moment. That does not mean that the sun's not coming back out. Yeah, that it's not going to be okay. Because if you had have asked me when Liza was diagnosed if she would be playing basketball, softball, gymnastics, I couldn't see that in the moment. I could not envision that in the moment. And now as much as diabetes we know which aren't, you know, because of Arden. She has type one, okay, great. But type one doesn't consume us. It doesn't control us. We, if we fail at something, we figure it out. If Laszlo wants to try something new, we make our best guess. And if we if we fail, we make notes and we try again the next time she has practice or if it if it has to do with sports or if that has something to do with her wanting to eat something. We make our best gifts. And if that's wrong, we make note so we fix it if we overdo it, we give her some juice and don't give us much next time.

Scott Benner 1:09:43
Good for you. That's wonderful. I if I have any part in that at all. I'm I'm absolutely thrilled. So

Heather 1:09:49
you 100% So Scott, yes. Thank you. Thank you for the time that you put into the podcast. Thank you for you making that decision said 17 years ago, when Arden was diagnosed, that you were going to make her life better. Because if you had not chose to figure this out, and to make it almost your life's mission, to figure this out for art, and so her life could be as normal as possible. I don't know that I could have done as much as I have for Liza, as, as quickly as I have for Eliza. Because you the information you have gathered for all of us, is right there. And you just have to want to take it, you just have to want to listen to it and figure it out. Oh, thank you. You're

Scott Benner 1:10:39
very fine. I was trying to thank you. And then you turned it back on me. But But that's very, very kind and I I'm fully feeling what you're saying you have me in a very emotional spot. So I don't have any. I don't have any sarcasm at all to fight back with right now. No,

Heather 1:10:53
yeah, I do have a question for you. Yeah. One question. Is it will it be very hard? And if you can't answer it today, that's fine. Will it be? Is it hot? Will it be extremely hard for me to move? LAHSA from Omnipod? Five to loop? Well,

Scott Benner 1:11:09
there's a couple of thoughts here I have about that. First of all, with the A one C you have? I don't know that that I don't even know that it's necessary. It sounds like you're doing you're doing terrific.

Heather 1:11:19
I think I'm more worried about her period. I think I'm more worried about the control I'll have when that starts.

Scott Benner 1:11:27
Yeah, I mean, I don't know. Like, I think people's hormonal impacts are different, obviously. And who she you know, how her body grows? And what ends up needing to be done? I don't honestly know, I also think that your I mean, what are you planning ahead by two or three years? Maybe? Or?

Heather 1:11:46
I don't know, I'm not sure. Yeah. I mean, everybody, you know, they talk about that at every visit. But yeah, um,

Scott Benner 1:11:55
I mean, the settings are, slightly, there'll be different, you know, so like, because right now you're using on the pod five, which is making, it's making all of your basil decisions for you, you don't really know, like, what it's like all of what it's doing, right? You can, you can see your total daily insulin. So you should be able to take your total daily insulin and just reverse engineer it to loop if you wanted to, and, you know, make it I'm sure you could get about to that. But if this is a thing, you know, already, I wouldn't switch just to switch. But if you if you think it's there, then you mean you can absolutely try. Like there's other things to consider with loop. Like you're going to buy, you're gonna buy in Mac computer, you're going to need to, you're gonna need to own a Mac computer, you're going to become an app developer, you're going to you know, you're using a do it yourself system. It's not supported by a company and something goes wrong. There's nobody to call and right, you know, the other day Arden's loop app, like, it just hosed up a little bit. Like it just kind of got unresponsive for a minute. And it was fine. But there's a moment where you go, oh, there is no one to call. If this stops this, there's no 800 Number Scott, she's gonna call you Oh, she was on television. And she was already on the phone with me, don't worry, I was I was in full in phone callers trying to figure it out. While she's telling me that's not working. And I'm like, I am trying. And so, you know, there's that to consider there is to consider as well that, you know, at any time, the FDA could step up and say, I don't think they will, but they could step up and say to the company, like don't allow that to happen, like block it was software or something like, I don't know, like, I don't think it would happen, but it could, you know, and like that's a consideration. You know, I don't know, like, I gotta be honest, like I wanted Arden to use on the pod five. And yeah, and she was, she's like, didn't want to carry the PDM. Like, so I don't know that by the time. The next thing comes around, she won't jump back again. Like I love I want to be clear, I love loop. It's fantastic. Like really legitimately fantastic. But a lot comes with it that I don't foresee Arden living with her whole life. Like, she doesn't want to do the things that it takes to make a loop. And now and now with I don't know if you saw the other day islet got they got FDA approval for their pump. The company. The company is called beta bionics. It's a tube pump. But the way they're describing it is you tell like you get the pump. If I'm mistaken. I might not have all the details. You tell it how much you weigh. And then you announce your meals as like small meal, medium meal, large meal. And that's it. Like that's how you that's how you Bolus. So now how is that going to work out? I don't know. I've got a call in to somebody trying to get somebody on the show to talk about it. I did have the opportunity recently. Lee, I had some private time with one of the doctors from beta bionics where we talked for probably an hour. And you know, I don't know that their outcomes are any better than the other systems, it's just the way you use them. I don't know about spikes, and like, it's not going to be perfect. Like, I wouldn't want anybody to think like, wow, it's just gonna work so much better than everything else, because I don't think it is, I think it's gonna work about the way what we have now it works. It's just that you're not going to count carbs, you're just gonna say this is like, a larger meal than I usually eat, or a smaller meal than or something like that. But so that that's even that's like, that's great. You know? So my point is, it really is, yeah, by the time she's 12, or 13, like, I don't even know what will exist, like, hopefully there'll be an omni pod six, or whatever. They're gonna do it. You don't I mean, like, I want everybody to keep going, I do love. Yeah, I love that they don't have the ability to nobody can rest on the laurels. Now, somebody's gonna come in and like, keep innovating. And I think that keeps everybody honest. And I'm a big fan of that. So I don't know, technology

Heather 1:16:07
itself. From, you know, glass has barely been diagnosed only almost three years. And the amount of things that we have watched change in three years is mind boggling. In itself. Okay.

Scott Benner 1:16:21
So yeah, no, I agree. It's just it's the way it's moving. is just, it's faster. And the leaps are bigger and bigger. And I don't know where we're going to be in a couple of years. I'm excited about where we're at. Yeah, but I don't know. That's all I don't know how to like, but if you're going to transfer from one to the other, I think you could obviously do it. I mean, you know what you're doing? So

Heather 1:16:48
keep it in the back of my brain for sure. Yeah.

Scott Benner 1:16:51
There's no reason not to stay abreast. And really, I mean, I'm a huge fan of you got to know what's going on out there. And you you jump when it's time to jump? You know, right. So absolutely. Okay, great. Well, I appreciate you doing this very much. Can you hold on one second for me? Yeah, thanks. Thank you.

I want to thank Heather for coming on the show and sharing that amazing story with us. A huge thanks to Dexcom for supporting the podcast and for sponsoring this episode dexcom.com/juicebox Go get yourself a Dexcom g7 right now using my link. If you'd like to wear the same insulin pump that Arden does, all you have to do is go to Omni pod.com/juice box. That's it. Head over now and get started today. And you'll be wearing the same tubeless insulin pump that Arden has been wearing since she was four years old. If you're not already subscribed or following in your favorite audio app, please take the time now to do that. It really helps the show and get those automatic downloads set up so you never miss an episode. Thank you so much for listening. I'll be back very soon with another episode of The Juicebox Podcast.

#1092 Black Diamond

Dave is a newly diagnosed type 1 and a new father.

+ Click for EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Scott Benner 0:00
Hello friends, and welcome to episode 1092 of the Juicebox Podcast.

Dave is an adult who was recently diagnosed with type one diabetes he believes after having Coxsackie virus, the way he was diagnosed is incredibly interesting. Of course he was then misdiagnosed as a type two, and the story unfolds. Nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise, always consult a physician before making any changes to your health care plan. Don't forget to save 40% off of your entire order at cozy earth.com. All you have to do is use the offer code juice box at checkout. That's juice box at checkout to save 40% at cozy earth.com. When you place your first order for ag one with my link, you'll get five free travel packs and a free year supply of vitamin D. Drink ag one.com/juicebox If you're not already subscribed or following in your favorite audio app, please take the time now to do that. It really helps the show

this episode of The Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by the contour next gen blood glucose meter. Learn more and get started today at contour next one.com/juicebox.

Dave 1:44
My name is Dave. I'm 34 years old and I was diagnosed type one diabetic last April. So it's been a little bit over a year now. Oh, wow.

Scott Benner 1:55
Was that unexpected?

Unknown Speaker 1:56
Completely and totally unexpected?

Scott Benner 2:00
Nobody else in your family? Nope, no

Speaker 1 2:03
family history. And the way I found out was pretty interesting. I was definitely it was definitely unexpected.

Scott Benner 2:11
Alright, I'm gonna ask one more question. And I want to know how you found out. Yeah, in hindsight now. Are there autoimmune issues in your family? People with celiac thyroid, stuff like that? No, nothing? Nothing at all. Okay. All right. Go ahead, Dave. How did this happen? Yeah. So

Speaker 1 2:28
it had been a while since I had been to the doctor. And I just went into establish care and had some routine bloodwork done by my primary care office and went home that day. And then my lab work started coming back on my chart. And I got a call from my wife who's in health care. And she had asked if I had seen any of my results coming in. And I was like, no, why do you ask me? She's like, well, your blood sugar's 471. And I was like, Well, that's pretty interesting, because I feel totally fine. In fact, the day before I had went in, I was skiing for probably five or six hours the night before, and I was actually headed back to the mountain after my appointment. And I thought that the doctor must have mixed up my lab work. And I went to the store and I bought a glucometer. And I checked my glucose at home and it was like 480 my UA came back, I was spilling ketones and protein in my urine. And, again, I felt totally fine. So I tried to call my primary care office couldn't get a hold of anyone. And my wife was like, You need to go to the emergency room. Like you're gonna guarantee K, or you're not far.

Scott Benner 3:47
What is your wife? Like? Vaguely do? I'm not trying to? She's a nurse practitioner. Okay. So she she really knew what was happening. And you know, she loves you, Dave, because instead of the phone calls, like, Hey, we're breaking up. She's like, there's something wrong with your health.

Speaker 1 4:04
Yeah, she was like, How do you feel okay, and I was like, Yeah, I feel great. Like I'm gonna go skiing afterwards. Like what's up? She's

Scott Benner 4:11
Where do you by the way? Where do you live where you can ski after work? I can barely get my mail after work. What's happening?

Speaker 1 4:16
Yeah, I live in Salt Lake City. So we're about a half hour from the mountains. So Gotcha. It's a quick jaunt after work. Do

Scott Benner 4:26
you think again, looking backwards? Did you feel fine? Or were you trying to talk yourself out of being sick?

Speaker 1 4:35
Yeah, so I think about that often. I mean, I think like really, there were I didn't have any like anything going on. I wasn't, you know, paying a lot or drinking a ton of water. Like, I think the only really indication that I could have you know, like, I was 144 pounds. Prior to going in, you know, it was usually hovering around 155 160. So I mean,

Scott Benner 4:58
you lost 15 pounds, you know? just didn't know what did you not know? What are you like, look at me thin is a pen? Like yeah,

Speaker 1 5:03
well, that's the thing we so we've lived in Utah for about two years now. So, you know, we ski probably four or five days a week. And you know, the mountains are right there. So we're hiking and biking, so I just kind of attributed it to being more active. Okay.

Scott Benner 5:18
Interesting. Do you remember what your a one C was? Yeah,

Speaker 1 5:23
it was 13.8 Oct. Dave, like

Scott Benner 5:26
I almost was going to I always almost positive. Like you'd say that it wasn't very high. And I thought maybe the onset just happened really quickly. But that doesn't seem right, either. I mean, with a 13.8, a one C, it seems like you might have been going through this for a bit. Yeah.

Speaker 1 5:40
So I so I tried to get a hold of my primary care office. And it's actually funny, the person that answered the phone was like, Well, what's, you know, why are you so concerned? And I was like, I mean, my agency's 13.8. And they're like, Well, you weren't fasted before your bloodwork, like that doesn't that has no effect.

Scott Benner 6:00
Does not matter? Are you sure you didn't have a Ring ding before the bloodwork, maybe a one C 14. And I'm here to out myself as not knowing what I'm talking about.

Speaker 1 6:10
Right? So, you know, I was like, Well, I guess I'm going to scrap this and just go to urgent care, you know, at the main hospital, so I went up there. And they were like, holy crap, you know, we don't even have a lab up here. Like, you need to just go to the emergency department. So I went down there. And I have, you know, I sat in the waiting room for like, five hours and like, Does no one care that I'm in DK right now. And I get back there. And the I saw do initially, I think she was a resident, but you know, her attending physician came in with her as well. And they were like, you know, like, you're just a type two diabetic. I was like, How in the world? Can I be a type two diabetic? They're like, Yeah, you know, you just need to exercise more and some diet changes. And, you know, you can get a hold of this thing. And I'm like, I literally cannot exercise any more than I already do. And I already eat pretty healthy. So like, my it was like, baffling.

Scott Benner 7:12
That's fascinating. Because Are they aware in that moment that you've recently lost? 15 pounds and you ski almost like, it sounds like every other day?

Speaker 1 7:20
Yeah, yeah, I told them as like, I mean, from an activity standpoint, like, there's really not much more I can do

Scott Benner 7:28
see, Dave, you grew up? Well, it sounds like you're a polite person. If you were me. And you had all this sarcasm built up inside of you from years of torture of living in the northeast, you would have said, How much more do you want me to exercise? Exactly? I go up to the top of a mountain and rundown it on some sticks. Is that like not enough? What should I should I do it without the skis? Do you think that would I would have been like such an assault, just so you know. And, but instead not you your do you fight back? Like push back on them?

Speaker 1 7:58
Yeah, so my wife, I mean, they left the room. And I'm like, you know, what the hell is that? It's funny you say that? I'm actually from Boston originally. But I've learned a ton of

Scott Benner 8:07
you let us down. Dave. Come on.

Speaker 1 8:09
I know, right. My wife is like, you know, what the hell this is. You know, I've learned about all this in school, like none of this makes any sense to what I've learned, like, was my whole education just so you know, she brought up questions again, the physician was just like, Yeah, I mean, you know, it is what it is just diet and exercise. I think at this point, they'd give me some fluids. My sugar was down to like 220 something. And I was like, so am I gonna go home on insulin? She's like, well, you're insulin naive. And I'm not really comfortable introducing insulin to an naive person. So Dave,

Scott Benner 8:48
tell me you got to go back one day and tell her she was medicine naive.

Unknown Speaker 8:54
My wife sent her a really nice email.

Scott Benner 8:56
I imagine also your I love, love, like, in the worst way, that your wife is now sitting in the room getting such bad information from a physician that she's questioning her education.

Speaker 1 9:07
Yeah, I mean, she was like, granted, you know, they didn't dive full on Intuit in school, but they obviously learned about it, but

Scott Benner 9:15
right on like, my point is, is that the doctor was saying something so opposite of what your wife read in a book that your wife's like, am I wrong? Like did I misunderstand all of that? Like, wow, hey, this is good. Yeah, Dave, I liked this story so far. Okay. When do you firebomb the clinic or do something it's just a setting letter, that's all you did. So

Speaker 1 9:36
we waited like, you know, I, you know, I got hair established and got my sugar in order and kind of, you know, got a grasp on things and, or as much as you can, and my wife was like, You know what it's time to, I'm gonna reach out to that physician because she had been going back and forth about it because she actually works at the same hospital. And then it just clicked on it. She's like, you know what, I'm sending that email. And I was like, I mean, It's a good email

Scott Benner 10:00
should. Your wife and my wife have a lot in common? She thought about it every day did she for hours at a time and plotted.

Speaker 1 10:10
The night that we came home, I, you know, I just went to bed. I was like, This is crazy. And she was up all night on her phone. Like I woke up for work in the morning, and she's still on her phone. She's like, I haven't found any studies. Like, I can't find anything. This doesn't make any sense.

Scott Benner 10:22
It wouldn't surprise me that if, if asked if my wife couldn't produce a list of everything I've ever done that was incorrect, wrong or questionable since the day she met me, like an actual, like an actual paper list or a book or something like that. Like if she like, throw a big tome up on the table and like, flip it open and go. Let me just flip back here to 1995. And yeah, that's, that's good. You ladies. They're like a dog with a bone sometimes. That's good. Good for your wife. That's excellent. Guys, just like, whatever. It's fine.

Unknown Speaker 10:53
Yeah, like, I guess we'll just figure it out.

Scott Benner 10:55
I don't care as fast. It's really amazing. So did the I have to know that the doctor respond?

Speaker 1 11:03
Yeah, it was actually, you know, because it was kind of okay. I understand. Sort of the not wanting to introduce insulin thing, right. Yeah. But at least give me like a referral to an endo or something. Right. So, you know, I think she in the email stated, like, you know, I'm only bringing this up to you so that you're aware for like future patients and future people, you might see that come through the door, like, at the very least, boot them out with a referral.

Scott Benner 11:30
I just say the part I love is like you the two of you're standing in front of, I don't know, a house or a car, we're talking about how it was built, or, you know, this house was built in 19. And she's saying everything, just not right. And then you say, Hey, I'd like to learn more about this. And she was, you're naive. You can't be involved yet. I love that using the word naive. In a scenario where she's so woefully, like misdirected. It just I don't know. It tickles me for some reason. I love Yeah, I

Speaker 1 12:00
think I think the response that we got was like, you know, thank you for the information. I'll definitely keep this in consideration for the future. Oh,

Scott Benner 12:08
yeah. Cuz she couldn't respond. I'm an asshole. Yeah. Because that's what she was like. It's just like, Oh, I really screwed this up. But well, anyway, it's really fantastic that you've reached out and, you know, gave her that information. I think it's wonderful. All right. So now, but at this point, do you feel like you have type two diabetes? Do you get past that you're not like didn't get hooked up in that, but you could have if you're gonna listen to her. If it wasn't for your wife's education, you'd have gone home and started dieting and exercising your 144 pound frame like that skiing all the time? Boy, you would have been managing type one diabetes, like it was before insulin.

Speaker 1 12:55
Yeah, I mean, they gave me You know, I had the Metformin and I was like, you know, do I want to take this? Yeah, I was like, you know, like, maybe I'll just take it before I go to the, you know,

Unknown Speaker 13:05
my primary care my endo refer or whatever. I just, you know, it's still sitting in my cabinet full. Yeah,

Scott Benner 13:11
I imagine. Okay, so you go to an endo, you get a good diagnosis. What kind of tech Did they give you?

Speaker 1 13:19
As funny? Yeah. So I got my C peptide was like point six actually went to primary care, because I had a little bit of a wait for my Endo. And, you know, I go in the room, and he's like, oh, yeah, you're deaf. You are, for sure. type one diabetic, you know, and he's baffled. He's like, I don't understand, like, you don't feel anything? And I'm like, no, like, I'm not making this up. I'm fine. And he's like, Well, we're gonna get you on what it is. He's like, we're gonna get you on a libre, blah, blah, blah. And he's talking to me, like, I know what this is. And like, What the hell is a libre? Yeah, you know, so we fill a prescription and stick it in my arm. And then, you know, I had it for about three weeks. And then I finally got in with my Endo. And she put me on a Dexcom. And the rest is kind of been history since then,

Scott Benner 14:04
you know, if I didn't know anything about diabetes, and you told me you were gonna give me put me on a libre, my closest connection would be like, from like, watching girls, little girls. Like, as my daughter grew up, like getting haircuts. I'd be like, Andre, are you going to color my hair differently? Like, I don't I don't you love it when they? That's why by the way, we made the diabetes, the defining diabetes series because people just use jargon. And they think, Well, I know what this means. So you know what it means. And it's just you know, don't you I love it when they're like, you know, first you're going to Bolus a person has never heard the word Bolus before in their life. You know, and you're like Bolus libre standard deviation? What? Yeah, I

Speaker 1 14:47
thought it would I thought I was picking up a snack at the pharmacy and like, is this kind of some kind of what is it libre?

Scott Benner 14:53
This must be for when my blood sugar gets something I don't know yet. Alright. So anyway, they put you on a Dexcom What a man of conviction. He's like, I'm gonna get you on a libre. Here's a Dexcom. So isn't that funny? I wonder if I wonder if in a doctor's mind, like our CGM is becoming like, like, you know the Kleenex thing like if you ask a person most people I mean if you if you're being clear you want to tissue right, but some people will use the brand name to describe something. I wonder if you use the word libre to say CGM. It's interesting. But yeah,

Speaker 1 15:27
I mean, it's funny because even now people like in my friends circles like what's you know, like, what's the thing in your arm? Oh, my God. It's a CGM. I look at like, what's the CGM? Like, what do you mean? You don't know what a CGM is?

Scott Benner 15:37
Are you not on Tiktok? Watching everybody argue about them? Come on. Let's go. Yeah, at this point, I believe everyone knows what a GLP one is. Most people have no idea what you're talking. I was somewhere the other day. I don't know how much you listen to this show. Dave. I am down 20 pounds on weego V. And it's a GLP one. So anyway, if somebody says to me, like, Hey, you look different. First, they asked me if I got my hair cut. I was like, This is it. I've never had this moment my whole life. They're like, did you get your hair cut? And I was like, it's it. It's gonna come up. I've lost weight. And I was like, I was like, No, I've lost weight. I might look different to you. Oh, my gosh, you do I can see it. I bought I was so excited. Because so many people have passed me by and not said anything. So I'm like hugging this person. Like this means a lot to me that you notice that? Meanwhile, she didn't notice she thought I got my haircut. But how did you do it? And I said, well, in all honesty, I'm using we go V and they go we go V and I'm like, yeah, it's a GLP one. And they're still staring at me. And I'm like, I guess everyone's not online the way I am. I was like, Okay, and so I'm explaining it to her and everything she like, that's fascinating. And you can see people off to the sides like listening with like half and you're like, What did you do? jotting it down. GLP one we spell that please. We want. And it was just really like, again, like I just thought, Oh, what is this thing I use? I've seen it in. I mean, I've seen people talking about on social media a lot. And I just jumped to the conclusion that everybody knows when this meanwhile, I would bet that nine out of 10 people have no idea what I'm talking about. But oh for sure. Yeah. So Dave, big shift at your age. And also I'm sorry, your you told me before we started recording and I need this information so I can tie some things together. You are about to have your first child. Yeah, October, October. Congratulations. Thanks. So you're very welcome. So this is my point is is that you made a baby? Not long after you were diagnosed. So your life seemed You don't seem like a guy who made a baby by mistake. Am I right about that? Correct? Yeah, this was planted. In my mind, Dave, you've been planning this for like three and a half years. So how close am I to be in? Right? Pretty close. Yeah. Okay. So you're, you've got a life. It's settled. It's planned out. There's none of this in your family. You know, you're as active as could be, you know, people who don't understand diabetes would never would never think of an active 160 pound person is having any kind of diabetes whatsoever. So I'm assuming it's a big shock. But how do you manage that shock? The contour next gen blood glucose meter is sponsoring this episode of The Juicebox Podcast. And it's entirely possible that it is less expensive in cash than you're paying right now. For your meter through your insurance company. That's right. If you go to my link contour next one.com/juice box, you're gonna find links to Walmart, Amazon, Walgreens, CVS, Rite Aid, Kroger, and Meijer. You could be paying more right now through your insurance for your test strips and meter than you would pay through my link for the contour next gen and Contour. Next One test strips in cash. What am I saying? My link may be cheaper out of your pocket than you're paying right now. Even with your insurance, and I don't know what meter you have right now. I can't say that. But what I can say for sure is that the contour next gen meter is accurate. It is reliable. And it is the meter that we've been using for years contour next one.com/juicebox And if you already have a contra meter and you're buying test strips doing so through the Juicebox Podcast link will help to support the show.

Speaker 1 19:39
Yeah, so it's funny My in laws are like you know, if anyone was gonna have type one diabetes, it's a good thing that it was you like you're so type A, you know, you're just going to get a handle on this thing right away. But I mean, I was very confused, you know, like, especially like I'm like, well I don't know anything about this. And then it's just like a huge change. And for a while, you know, we're going back and forth between like, do you have type two diabetes? Do you have type one diabetes? Like what's going on? What do we do? I always say that I'm fortunate enough, I guess if I was going to get it to have it at this point in my life, as opposed to having to grew up with it, because I just can't even imagine that it would be so difficult. But, you know, the change was a lot. But at the same time, you know, it wasn't terrible in terms of, you know, like, my diet didn't change that much. Like, you know, now I'm just counting carbs. And figuring this thing out slowly. My endo actually is the one that put me on to the podcast. And she was like, You need to listen to this, this, this, this, this, this, this and this. And I was like, Oh, my gosh, this is like, more information than actually going to the appointment.

Scott Benner 20:52
Well, I appreciate that. Thank you. Whoever your endo is. Yeah. No, she's

Unknown Speaker 20:55
great. Yeah.

Scott Benner 20:56
That's wonderful. I'm huge in Utah. I don't know if you realize that or not. I

Unknown Speaker 21:01
just found out about a year ago. Yeah.

Scott Benner 21:05
That's hilarious. What a great answer, Dave, you're not my favorite guest this week. I just found out about a year ago, when I was at a doctor's office, the doctor is going I need you to listen to a podcast that must have flipped out for half a second. You were like, wait, don't you tell me the stuff? Yeah,

Speaker 1 21:20
it's funny, too, because I don't even listen to blog prior to this. You know, I didn't even really listen to podcast. Well,

Scott Benner 21:25
welcome. And thank you, and thank you to her I sincerely. It feels nice to know that, that you put something together that made it into the hands of a physician who was comfortable enough to say, you should go listen to a podcast, like that really is a great feeling for me. So thank you. Yeah. Okay, so you, you leave the doctor's office and you go listen to a podcast, you're wearing a Dexcom Are you injecting or do you have a pump? Yeah,

Speaker 1 21:54
I'm MDI. So they were like, you know, you can go on a pump after X amount of time. And I just haven't gotten to it yet. You know, my agency now is 4.9. And I guess I've just been like, you know, if it's not broke, don't fix it.

Scott Benner 22:12
Yeah, no reason. I mean, if you're doing well, you're doing well. You don't I mean, I think that's fantastic. Do you feel like you're honeymooning at all? Oh,

Speaker 1 22:20
100% For sure. I'm just waiting for the day. You know where I'm not

Scott Benner 22:25
coming from work. You're like someone give me a pump? Exactly. I'm

Speaker 1 22:30
sure it's in the future. But no, my insulin needs aren't really too crazy right now. So Okay.

Scott Benner 22:36
All right. Well, yeah, I mean, I say do what you do, you know, and especially sounds like you're being successful with it at the end. I'm not speaking for you. Right. Where's your evidence yet?

Unknown Speaker 22:45
Yeah. 4.9

Scott Benner 22:47
Are you a low carb person? Are you just keeping really active so I'm

Speaker 1 22:51
definitely really active. So I've been in initially, I was admittedly afraid of carbs. I've gotten a lot braver with stuff now, but I would say, um, you know, I'm not going to Wendy's three times a week, but I have some carbs but nothing, I would say. Probably low carb.

Scott Benner 23:11
I love that. You picked Wendy's. Do you go to Wendy's once a week.

Unknown Speaker 23:13
I haven't met a Wendy's in a very long time.

Scott Benner 23:16
I haven't either. Can I tell you? I didn't like their nuggets. When I was younger. It turned me off to the whole place.

Unknown Speaker 23:22
I think that's fair.

Scott Benner 23:23
Thank you.

Speaker 1 23:24
Let's see. I was traveling recently, and I was in the airport. And it was pretty limited food selection. And I was like, Well, I guess I can try this croissant. And that was a big mistake.

Scott Benner 23:36
It's the biggest Bolus you've ever given yourself. I'm six units. Okay, that's a band. That was a large one. Yeah, well, did you get your weight back? Where's your weight sitting?

Speaker 1 23:48

Like I hover between 55 155 and 160. So yeah.

Scott Benner 23:53
So what's your this is off the top my head? I'm not doing any math. Does your Basal like, point six times? Are you like 1213 units today?

Speaker 1 24:04
Yeah, it's actually interesting as at, so I've been doing like 12 and then probably two weeks ago, I've been waking up in like the 60s in the high 50s. So I dropped it down to 10. Okay,

Scott Benner 24:17
so you really are honeymooning. That's good. I mean, good luck. Right. And as long as you can. Also, let's pause here for a second Dave so that people listening can absorb that. I just guessed your Basal insulin. Yeah, great. Okay, let it happen. Just let everybody go. Okay. I am listening to the right podcast. Without telling you how I did that. You know, at this point, honestly, I feel like it's, um, you ever drive home and realize when you get home, you don't know how you got there. Like, you know, if you weren't really paying attention, I might be at that point with diabetes at this point. I'm like, Oh, he's like 155 160s active is biggest Bolus is 6.8. Probably like 12 years. I don't even I must have looked like Rain Man figuring that out just now. What is anyone seen rain man at this point? I gotta get better.

Speaker 1 25:10
You're gonna have job offers coming in pretty soon from endos all over the country. I can't

Scott Benner 25:15
afford to take the job. I'm making a podcast. Very successful. I'm sorry. Okay, so your life is. Let me ask you, how has it changed? Like, because you've laid out how your management is. And so how's your day to day changed?

Speaker 1 25:32
I think that it's just become a little bit more inconvenient. You know, there's a lot of timer set. You know, I Pre-Bolus Pretty much every meal. It's funny. Actually. My wife refuses to eat dinner until my 15 minute alarm dings. Regardless of what I tell her to do. I'm like, you can just eat the food. You don't have to wait. 15 minutes. It's really okay. Okay,

Scott Benner 25:56
can I tell you? I don't want to cut you off. I find that so lovely. It almost brought a tear to my eye. You don't have diabetes? No, I'm being serious. That's really wonderful. Good for her. He's great. Yeah, okay. I'm sorry. So a little more inconvenient. Got a lot of time or set, but your hand like you're handling it like an adult that was met with a problem?

Speaker 1 26:19
For sure. Yeah. I mean, there's the repercussions of not getting a handle on it, you know, are terrible. So have you think I live with like this giant fear, because I have such good control of it. But you know, it's always in the back of your mind.

Scott Benner 26:34
Yeah, but you don't sound like you have any psychological impact either, though, like you're not bugging out or depressed or anything, right? No, definitely

Speaker 1 26:41
not. I mean, maybe in the beginning, I was kind of like, what, like, how did this happen to me? You know, like, what did I do? And I'm like, I didn't really do anything. I guess just happened.

Scott Benner 26:50
Right? Now. It's such a healthy decision to make. I mean, really is. I mean, I feel like you're showing that, you know, if you're healthy, if you're if you're mentally healthy to begin with, because there are some people who would be depressed already and like not, you know, not really being controlled those reactions, but if you're healthy to begin with it is the decision like, do I go why me and fall down a rabbit hole of despair? Or do I just say, Okay, next thing to conquer. And, you know, let's, let's get to it. That's really, really terrific. And I guess my next question is, you were already on a path to making a baby. Was there any second thoughts? Like, did you go like, today's the day we're gonna try and your wife like, got cold feet or anything like that? Are you? No, no,

Speaker 1 27:33
no, but I mean, I It's funny, and we're like, we talking? Well, what if he's a type one diabetic? Well, at least we have plenty of practice, but hopefully not. That's

Scott Benner 27:45
That's it. That's the extent of it. Like if it happens, it happens. No, like, was it a very, I don't know how to ask this. Are you very religious person? Are you like it's up to God? Like, no, no, no. Okay. Wow. All right. Cool. Do you think you'll have the baby tested when he or she is old enough to see if they have markers for type one?

Speaker 1 28:07
Oh, yeah, for sure. I, you know, in discussing this with my doctors, you know, we're like, how do we get here? And they're like, you know, well, have you had like, COVID or any other viruses? Well, weirdly enough, like at, I think it was 31. I got hand foot and mouth from a doctor. I work with

Scott Benner 28:26
Dave. Dave. That's what Arden had before she was diagnosed. That's crazy. Yeah, it's actually not it's an incredibly common virus that leads to a type one diagnosis. Oh,

Speaker 1 28:39
there. Yeah. We were like it's either that or I've had COVID I think three times. So we're like it's either that

Scott Benner 28:45
I've also been eating COVID on my cereal. Hey, I think legally you're allowed to at least with a white glove slap that doctor across the face when you see them? I've been looking for Sir, you sir. have given me taekwondo. But you had you obviously you had the markers already. But hand foot mouth and I don't understand the the mechanics behind it. But if you if you go back in the podcast, there's an episode. I hate googling myself. But hold on a second. Just because it feels a little douchey I don't know if you realize that or not. To go to your own website and go let me just find the information we need. The I'll just give me a second. So prevention bio comes on to talk about the plasma mob. I'm back on episode 452. Really lovely episode the gentleman that came on. Fantastic. They have actually recently sold to miss a blob to plus a mob excuse me put them before the pay. By the way, there shouldn't be M's and peas and z's that close to each other in words, but they the drug made it through FDA approval, and it was sold to Sanofi Sanofi. Sorry, it's a French company. I know people that work there some people say Sanofi some people say Sanofi. Anyway, this drug is to slow down the onset of your diabetes, of type one. But in that conversation in 452, he spent a fair amount of time talking about how he'd like to work on a vaccine for hand Foot Mouth. Because Because he said, I think if we can stop hand foot and mouth, which is called coxsackievirus, that we would slow down the onset of type one diabetes. Anyway, it's a very emotional like, I It's another episode where I was, we be listening to it. As somebody from the company, Lenny Ramos, she came back on an 842 to talk about tz old twins. This is so ridiculous. But to put them out was FDA approved, they changed the name to sell it as tz old. But they're two great episodes if you want to hear more about it. But anyway, my point is, is that I'm Francisco Leone, he's a physician, I think he was the co founder of prevention bio. And the way he talked about it was uplifting. He's like, you know, maybe we can't just cure type one, but maybe we could stop things that send people into a diagnosis. And I was like, oh, it's really a, like a cool way of thinking about it. Anyway, he made me think that and you and my daughter had the same virus before you were diagnosed. So yeah, yeah. Now, you know, double in the club.

Unknown Speaker 31:37
Like who gets hand foot and mouth when in their 30s?

Scott Benner 31:40
Yeah, I was gonna say, Man, that's a kid's thing. Yeah, like my fingernails

Unknown Speaker 31:43
and toenails are popping up. Like, what is this?

Scott Benner 31:46
Lightweight, they can't handle a little coxsackievirus. Yeah, my daughter was. She wasn't even two when she got it. And the reason that we the first way, we kind of started sniffing out that something was odd. Well, before we understood diabetes, or that Shiva was exhibiting signs of type one is that the hand Foot and Mouth felt like it returned. And at the time, the best that like the oh my god, my kids are so old. I don't know the word doctors for children. Pediatrician, thank you, Jesus. You guys are listening to me. And I can't think of the word pediatrician. You might want to go find out if there's another podcast you can find try. Try two bears one cave or something. But anyway, you know, he found it so strange. Like I remember him kind of like looking up into his head going this doesn't make sense. Like this isn't a thing you get twice. And now Now you wonder like when she got it the first time? Did her immune system go after the Coxsackie? Or did it go like right for her pancreas? Like, you know, and did the Coxsackie not get dealt with? And then maybe it was quelled and brought back or did she really get it again? Or? We have no idea, obviously. But yeah, that's how that happened. And then just right after her second birthday, she started like wasting away. And it it really did take us a long time to figure it out. The doctors at the time. I don't think I talked about this too much on the podcast, but they think we got her to the hospital like maybe 24 hours before she was gonna go into a coma.

Unknown Speaker 33:20
Oh my gosh, yeah. So

Scott Benner 33:24
anyway, nobody tells you about that when you're having sex trying to make a baby. This is fun. And we're gonna buy a crib and a stroller.

Unknown Speaker 33:33
CGM? Yeah,

Scott Benner 33:34
they also don't tell you, you're probably not gonna have sex much after you have a baby. But they really should tell you that, because then you wouldn't do it. But anyway, I don't want to ruin the surprise that's coming. One day, you're gonna be like, I like the wall. This Chris Hardwick he's fun. Is this the time we would have usually been having sex?

Unknown Speaker 33:55
Think I'm gonna go to bed? Yeah,

Scott Benner 33:57
I'll see you in 20 years. We'll split up the money at the end. You know? My goodness. Anyway, don't let me paint a picture of marriage and being a parent is terrible. It's the best experience of my life. How involved is your wife with your diabetes, a little nun? She just supportive.

Speaker 1 34:16
She said, I have this really great habit of giving myself compression lows in the night and sleeping through all of the alarms in the world. So you know, actually, you know, she's got the she's follows me on her cell phone. Anytime I'm out of range, I get a text like hey, like, are you okay? Hey, like what's going on? Like we missed? We missed with that. Pre-Bolus I think I was feeling brave a few weeks ago and decided to go for some pizza, which didn't end well for me. And I woke up at three o'clock in the morning to an injection and my butt cheek. So she's very involved in the diabetes management.

Scott Benner 34:53
Was she giving you insulin and glucagon? Yes, she's

Unknown Speaker 34:55
getting the insulin okay. Yeah, I guess that's difficult. Yeah,

Scott Benner 35:00
I wasn't sure like Were you having a seizure? Or were you like,

Unknown Speaker 35:02
that was just 400.

Scott Benner 35:05
So she so a couple things. So she's now kicking you going rollover you by the way, Dave. I could be your father, because I'm very practiced at this. And you're using the G six it sounds like

Speaker 1 35:15
I actually now I'm using libre three

Scott Benner 35:19
by three and you're getting compression loads with it.

Unknown Speaker 35:22
Sometimes Yeah. Okay.

Scott Benner 35:25
So she's kicking you to roll over off the sensor. Were

Unknown Speaker 35:28
you wearing it? Back on my arm.

Scott Benner 35:30
And you're getting a compression low. How do you sleep Dave?

Speaker 1 35:35
I don't know. I guess I'm just all over the place. It's gonna say usually I'm asleep on my back and then I wake up on my side. It's hard to keep track of what Arvidson

Scott Benner 35:45
roll over roll Artin rollover. Get off the sensor on him.

Unknown Speaker 35:52
Yeah, I woke up was like what are you doing? She's like your blood sugars. I'm like,

Scott Benner 35:56
did you think that your your love life was taking a weird turn at first?

Unknown Speaker 36:00
What is stinging in my

Scott Benner 36:04
you have to ask my permission first.

Speaker 1 36:07
She's I'm really sorry. I had to give you insulin last night. Like trust me. I felt it. Yeah,

Scott Benner 36:12
I'm aware. You're not great at it. I've lost my touch. I don't think I'm good at giving injections anymore. I would probably be the last person you'd want to deal with at this point. I'm sure I could get back in practice pretty quickly. But

Speaker 1 36:25
yeah, let one of my roommates from college do it. My long acting and it was like the scene from Pulp Fiction.

Scott Benner 36:34
You were probably or you were Oh my god. I'm having trouble with words today. All right. Let's go over it. There's an actress. She's married to Ethan Hawke. Her name is Uma Thurman. Yeah, yes. She's in Pulp Fiction. laying on the ground. Do you think people haven't seen by the way, Dave? I don't know where you stand. Pulp Fiction is. It would be one of the five movies in the conversation for if I could only take one movie to a desert island with me easily. Yeah, um, Pulp Fiction is high up there in that in that conversation. So she's Odede. Right. She thought she did coke but she did heroin. She started heroin, I think. Yeah, Gerhard stops. John Travolta, which I know you're like John Travolta. Yes, John Travolta takes her to his drug dealers house for some reason. If you haven't seen this, even just this scene, it's fantastic. And they have like an adrenaline needle. And the guy's pulling it out. And he's like, stick it in your heart. And Travolta is like standing over top of her like, anyway, it's fantastic. You're saying, This is what happened to you? Except in your ass?

Unknown Speaker 37:43
Yeah, as a side of my leg.

Scott Benner 37:48
Had she ever given you one before, like, would have led me immediately to go? How often does this happen?

Unknown Speaker 37:55
Not often.

Scott Benner 37:57
Imagine she's mad. Like you're like, I don't use much insulin at all. But it turns out you're using like 12 units more a day than you think as your wife's injecting while you're sleeping.

Speaker 1 38:05
Yeah, why am I going through these pens so fast? What happened here last

Scott Benner 38:09
night? I don't remember any of us. Needles everywhere. And she's July, August, September, October. She's five months pregnant. So. Yeah, I know. Oh, yeah. She must be thrilled with you and your beeping. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 38:23
I guess good practice for the future.

Scott Benner 38:25
Is that how you're selling it?

Speaker 1 38:28
Like, should we get like, you know, one of those diabetes alarms that goes in the side of the bed that awakeness she's like, No, we don't need things that are going to be louder in this house.

Scott Benner 38:36
May I make a suggestion? Yeah. glucose.

Unknown Speaker 38:42
Oh, yeah. Yeah,

Scott Benner 38:43
I have one on my desk here. And I just looked over, now it's green means Arden's blood sugars in a range that I find like that, like acceptable and valuable. It's like, I don't know. It's like 100 bucks. I think I have a I think I have a link like an affiliate link, but I don't really use it. Because yeah,

Speaker 1 39:00
because we actually have a hatch on the bedside table and not like wakes me up without a problem every day.

Scott Benner 39:08
Yeah. glucose.com It's just this really cool thing. I think you have to have Dexcom I don't know if that works with libre or not, if I'm being honest. Anyway, it's cool, like uses your Dexcom data. And as you leave different ranges that you set up, it turns colors. Oh, yeah. And if you get low, it's red. And then if you get too low, it flashes red. And I obviously it's not going to wake you up. It doesn't make any noise. But I find it. I have one in my bedroom. And I find it really valuable because if I open my eyes at night, and I find myself wondering about Arden's blood sugar, I don't have to like wake myself up enough to open the phone and then find the app etc. which I know sounds like such a first first world problem. I don't have to swipe up on Like, Dave, you know, because it's it's a hassle. Obviously, that's not that much of a hassle. But you look over and you kind of just see the color glowing and it's green and you think green. Alright, go back to sleep. You kind of doesn't break your sleep the same way. Yeah. And even in the house. Like, you know how I was talking earlier about how you can like, drive somewhere and not know, you know that you're not remember making any of the turns or anything. There's a couple of them in my house. And as I wander through, I think subconsciously I see them, but I don't focus on them. And then like, they just go, Ooh, is that red? And then it makes me open my phone, like Arden's off to college, and I'll be like, Hey, your blood sugar looks a little low, and she'll be like, I just ate something like, okay, cool. And that's it. It's really, it's a great little idea, that thing. Oh,

Unknown Speaker 40:45
and it doesn't sound like a tornado alarm.

Scott Benner 40:47
Yeah. You know what, if I think of it, I'll put a link in the show notes to it. If you guys are interested in checking it out. I think I make like, $3 Every time you buy one or something like that, I don't honestly know. But anyway, but Okay, so your wife is helping like that. That's pretty cool. Was she right about the amount of insulin she drew up? Or was she like, eyeball on it? Or?

Speaker 1 41:08
Yeah, now she was right. Because it's, you know, every time we Pre-Bolus Or like, we're counting car, it's a big discussion, right? You know, it's like, Okay, we're gonna have pasta passes one to 18 I'm gonna do you know, blah, blah, blah, units, like four units, whatever. So she's very in tune to those conversations. So when I'm, you know, that was a pizza hit me like four hours later. Yeah. And she's like, okay, he's correction should be this. He's at this. So like, she's very, she might as well have type one diabetes.

Scott Benner 41:37
She really gets it. Yeah, that's excellent. I mean, honestly, this is the time where most people sleep a lot before they have a baby, but okay. You know, have you listened to the episodes about like, fat and protein rises?

Speaker 1 41:50
Yeah. And, you know, unfortunate now, like I said, we talked about like, I'm still honeymooning. But, you know, I'm just waiting for the day when I'm, you know, not having any free meals and like, alright, steak, like gonna count is count that.

Scott Benner 42:04
Yeah. Oh, no, we're all of a sudden six units is like, not nearly the largest Bolus you've used and stuff. We went to the movies. The other night, Arden was home for like two days. And I don't know how the rest of you live your lives. But that spider verse movie came out, we were like, We're going to the movies. And she tried to stack going out to lunch with her friends, and then coming home and then going right to the movies with us. And like it, like she missed at the restaurant, like pretty, like, massively. So we're like putting these big boluses on as we're approaching the, the, the theater trying to get ahead of it. And we just, we just didn't do well. Like we're just we're kind of like, I don't know how to explain this. Like when she's here with us, there's a way we manage, right? When she's away at school, there's a way we manage that we're not as involved in obviously, almost not at all. And then she came home. And there's like this little part of her who like jokingly, like will sit down to eat and she'll like slide her phone across the table and be like, hey, go big guy. You must miss this. Right. And once you Bolus for dinner, I really think she just honestly wants a break. You know? Yeah. And so we somehow in the middle, like, didn't give each other a break. And like, I don't know, like she was kind of involved. I think we both thought the other person was looking at it. But anyway, my point is, is that by the time she left that restaurant and went to a movie theater, she must have easily had 40 units of insulin maybe over like over like the last couple of hours. But she went to like some crappy restaurant and then she's like, had a Slurpee. I don't know if that you know, you're from Boston. You know what it is? Yeah. At the movies, so just sugar and water, and cookie dough bites, cheese. Anyway, here's the real moral of that story. That movie is terrific. Really, really good. If you if you have not seen that spider verse film, go see the first one then go see the second one. Because that's crazy that it's animated. And it's that good. Anyway, Dave, what do you want to talk about? Do you have a thought? Like a you want to talk about in your notes? You said weird diagnosis, but talked about that. sticking up for yourself, which you obviously did, but what else you got?

Speaker 1 44:19
Yeah, I think that was the biggest thing, right, is that everyone has been in terms of like my care team. There's just been so confused. And like, this is so uncommon, and like this is just crazy. Like, you know, I've been practicing medicine for X amount of years and never seen anything like this. So I think just kind of getting it out there and like sharing the story with people. I mean, who knows, maybe you could do some good. Yeah, we have friends that are you know, like urgent care, primary care nurse practitioners and physician assistants. And, you know, we told them this during like, Oh, like this is always going to be something I'm thinking about. People come in so

Scott Benner 44:59
hey, the One thing I've been wondering I didn't ask you about is there's no, like after you got on insulin, you couldn't see. Oh, I didn't feel well. I didn't realize it was no change. Yeah,

Speaker 1 45:12
I think maybe, you know, like, I think about it, and I probably don't drink as much water as I used to

Scott Benner 45:21
be just like, Oh, I'm hydrating, like they talk about.

Speaker 1 45:23
Yeah, you know, I'm gonna skier Yeah, we're gonna go on this big hike, like, you know, I gotta get water. But now it's like, I was thinking about it the other day. And like, I've only had like, you know, two Hydroflask today, and it's five o'clock in the afternoon. Whereas maybe I would have had five or six.

Scott Benner 45:39
Wow. But no, like, increased mental clarity, energy, like nothing like that.

Speaker 1 45:46
I think no, I was actually afraid to get my blood sugar and check and be tired. You know, it's like, well, I'm not running at 400 anymore. So I'm probably going to be deep. But

Scott Benner 45:55
it's like, I'm optimal around 400 with a 13. A one C?

Speaker 1 45:59
Yeah. Everyone's like, no wonder you can't sit down your blood sugar's 480.

Scott Benner 46:03
So that would be the opposite. If your blood sugar was high, and you were feeling it, it would it would slap you and shut you off.

Speaker 1 46:09
Yeah, my nurse in the emergency department. He was a type one. And he was like, You must feel awful. Like when we were walking back to the room, and I was like, No, I feel good music. Oh, he's like, I'm type one. And when I'm like, above 220 Like, I just start feeling horrible.

Scott Benner 46:25
Yeah, yeah. That's coming, Dave. I'm sorry. I, if it doesn't call me back and be like, Hey, I've had diabetes now from because we might want to get you like, in some research, like, we might like, have to let the government like take over your life and check your body and stuff like that. You would give yourself up to research right there. Oh, for sure. Thank you. Very nice. We'll take that as illegal. Yes, later. Well, that's really fascinating. Like, I thought for certain you were gonna say no, you know, what ended up happening was I was just accustomed to how crappy I was feeling. And then when I went backwards with my blood sugar, I realized what I was going through, but nothing. Oh, yeah. I

Speaker 1 47:00
mean, I go through the question list, like where I was with my primary care? And he's like, No, this and this isn't like, no, no, no. And then he, you know, stops and asked me all the same questions again. Oh,

Scott Benner 47:14
then the only thing I can think they asked you is How frequently do you go skiing?

Unknown Speaker 47:20
At least four days a week? That's

Scott Benner 47:21
maybe it's it, maybe you just the activity was just put your blood sugar was still high? I don't know. Really doesn't make sense.

Speaker 1 47:29
Yeah, it's and then, you know, then you reopen the, you know, now we know I have diabetes, and I'm taking insulin, and now I'm still doing all these things. And it's like, how do these activities affects my blood sugar? And it's just, it's crazy. Like, you know, hiking is totally opposite of what my sugar does when I'm skiing.

Scott Benner 47:46
If I don't want to go down a weird rabbit hole with you, but since you're in Salt Lake, if the Miracle on Ice happened there in the Olympics, and I think it didn't, then we're gonna call this the miracle on snow.

Unknown Speaker 48:01
But I know my cursor was in that movie. Wait, hold on

Scott Benner 48:04
a second. Keep your weird thoughts on check for a second. Wait, are you so that happened in Lake Placid? New York, dammit. All right. I still called the Miracle on stuff. Who knows? But your cousin was like an extra or like a character.

Speaker 1 48:18
He played Jaco Callahan. He was a cute like one of the main characters.

Scott Benner 48:23
Okay. I'm going to IMDb

Unknown Speaker 48:29
Yeah, Michael made nuda.

Scott Benner 48:32
Yet by the way, your last name is ridiculous.

Unknown Speaker 48:37
Should see how people spell it.

Scott Benner 48:39
I don't even imagine that they get anywhere near it. Like you're saying if I scroll I see Steve Gutenberg is the right movie, right? All cast and crew. I'm scrolling. The Stealth errs great for the podcast. Why don't they just do a find what is wrong with me? I'm such an idiot. So is it the only movie he's ever been in? I

Speaker 1 49:07
think after that he was in a few others, but nothing like big like that. That was the biggest role that he had.

Scott Benner 49:12
Was he trying to be an actor?

Speaker 1 49:14
So you're ready for this? All right. He played college hockey, had to take an acting class for an art credit. And he really liked it and his key graduated his professor call them and was like, Hey, there's this hockey movie happening. Like you should go try out for it. And he was like, oh, okay, like I was gonna try for this movie, whatever. And he got the role.

Scott Benner 49:35
That's insane. Except, except this wrong movie. He was in miracle.

Unknown Speaker 49:44
Oh, yeah. Well, that's it.

Scott Benner 49:48
I can't wait for him to hear this.

Unknown Speaker 49:51
Well, Miracle on Ice is what they called it. Well,

Scott Benner 49:54
it just says miracle. The Miracle on Ice was the actual Oh, is this the movie of the thing? Okay, I'm gonna let that go as a pass for you. Okay, because the event was at Lake Placid was called Miracle on Ice. That's what they call it like in the news, but miracle. Oh, wow, that's crazy. I see him. Yeah, handsome fella. I was that pretty. I'd be in a movie to Michael. I guess he could skate because you guys are from Boston. Right? So, yeah, I

Unknown Speaker 50:25
played hockey for University of Maine. Oh, good for him.

Scott Benner 50:27
That's really cool. What's he doing now?

Speaker 1 50:29
He was training dogs in Special Forces dogs and helicopter. Rescue Mission. Yeah,

Scott Benner 50:39
they ended up being in three movies. Miracle. The other ones are I do. dirtbags and surfer dude. surfer

Unknown Speaker 50:47
dude fits.

Scott Benner 50:50
The hair. does have nice long hair. Okay, well, that was an interesting sidebar. All right, well, now we're just going to call this Salt Lake miracle or something like that. Who knows? You know, it's I should throw a bone to the Utah fans once in a while. That would be nice. Do you know Do you know how that ended up being? Like, when you told me you were in Salt Lake, I have to do the math on my head because you're either part of the church or you just live in Utah. But I have a ton of Latter Day Saints fans.

Unknown Speaker 51:21
Oh, no. I'm not part of the church. Now. I

Scott Benner 51:23
figured it out. Because you only have one baby. And you're in your 30s Yeah, exactly. I've been a real slacker. If you were, there's no way wrong. Yeah, they would have been like, you gotta go. So how do you really screw it up? Okay. There's a bad joke in there. I'm not gonna make but anyway. Yes. So it turns out, it's just a really tight knit community. So when somebody in the church figured out the podcast was valuable, it just really got around. And I'm hoping one day for there to be a statue of me and Utah somewhere. is plenty of room after I get a little thinner, then we can start commissioning that statue. Anyway, anything we haven't talked about, like, at all? Let make sure I'm not missing anything that I can think of. David, you're very chill. Thanks. Are you really from Boston? How long have you been out of Boston?

Speaker 1 52:16
A while. So Boston, North Carolina. I was in North Carolina for like eight years. And then we moved out here about like, a little over two years ago. Did. Lawson still comes out when we're driving now.

Scott Benner 52:30
Have you ever said this to your wife? If I don't teach him this lesson? Who is going to?

Speaker 1 52:35
Yeah, she's like, you know, when you go on this podcast, you can't swear. I was like, Okay, you gotta

Scott Benner 52:41
we got it. I was editing a show the other day from with a lady from Australia. Her episode is going to be called Stuart Pitt. In case you're wondering. And she cursed so much. It was lovely. I started cursing. I was like, Ah, so relaxed.

Unknown Speaker 52:55
The sign of intelligence.

Scott Benner 52:58
I well. I'm gonna go with that, for sure. But seriously, do you think moving down to North Carolina? Did it chill you out? Is it your wife? Or do you meet your wife?

Speaker 1 53:10
In North Carolina? I think yeah. It's a different way of life down there. You know, people are very friendly. You know, you can't No one's that you can't run around like a Masshole being abrasive to everyone. You know, they drive slow that walk slow, like,

Scott Benner 53:26
just get used to driving. It makes me mental. When I Oh, you

Speaker 1 53:30
have you ever been to Utah is home to the worst drivers in the world? Oh, no, I

Scott Benner 53:34
didn't realize that. It's terrifying. I, because my son got out of college. And then I don't know if I've probably told this before. But in my life, I had been to Georgia one time, Cole had played baseball there when he was like, 16 for some like scouting thing. And that's the only time I'd ever been there. And then suddenly, about two years ago, Arden started talking about going to school in Georgia. And we're like, Okay, that seems so far away. Like, you know, like, the whole time you're raising a kid with type one, you're like, Well, maybe she'll just go to like the school across the street or, you know, offer somebody to go to the community college in town. It's like, at that time, she said, I'm either gonna go to Chicago, Manhattan, or Georgia. And we were like, no, like, no, there's just no good answer in there. You know, like, these things are far away their travel problems, like even though New York's close, like getting into the cities, not like, I don't know, if anybody's ever done that. It's not that easy. And so, she ends up picking Georgia, and then my son graduates from college, like literally gets his first job in the world in Atlanta. And now suddenly, I've been to Georgia like seven times. And I you people can't drive like I don't know another way to put it. It's terrible. The worst is South Carolina. Oh my gosh, if I'm if I'm putting them in order Here's my message to the people South Carolina. You can change lanes. Okay, that's my message them. Here's my message to the people who live right around Atlanta. You people are out of your fucking minds. I saw the last time I visited my son. In a three day visit, I sought to hit and run accidents in Atlanta. Oh, yeah. One of them. An SUV, drove over the back of a small car and kept going. And, and a mile up the road. I saw a police officer pulled over. So I did the obvious thing. I pulled over we were stuck in like construction traffic. The story is not important. But we were just stop and go traffic. And this person wanted to change lanes. And instead of changing a lane literally caught the back of the car with the front of the tire and their car was lifted enough. He drove up over the trunk. And he saw us I mean God I say he got blood had to have been a guy right. And like it found a little slot in the in the traffic and like shot up eight spots, and just drove away from it. And we were still in stop and go traffic. There's a car that he just ran over eight slides back and he just keeps going. So I pull over get the cop. I get. I have to admit the internet has made I got out the car with my hands off. I was like, Hi. He didn't care less about me. I'm like, I just witnessed the hit and run. accident. And that's the car that hit. I'm like pointing I'm like we can still see it. It's that SUV right there. And he goes, Yeah, man. That's not why I'm here. Have a good day. And I'm like, what he goes I'm here for traffic control for the construction. And I went what? head around that he goes, then he sees on actually concerned. He goes, Yeah, I'm sure they have insurance. They'll take care of it. I'm like, I'm like, sir. That SUV right there? You see it right? And he goes, Yeah, I'm like, that car just drove over the back of a vehicle and fled the scene. You can go get him. That was he didn't care. Anyway, I don't know what's going on in Atlanta. You people can't drive. That's it's just it's a mess. Like a real mess. The idea of filling the space in front of you is lost in the south to begin with that I don't understand at all that, but South Carolina might be the worst.

Speaker 1 57:35
Oh, when you come out to Utah, I will report back. Some rankings change.

Scott Benner 57:39
I love the people. Everyone's lovely. Just you guys. Like you just kind of come to the northeast for like six months and drive. But I can't tell you like going around Washington, like on the beltway at night. It feels like you're in a NASCAR race. It really does. And you're left one Oh my You're like I can't take my eyes off the road. My hands off this. We got to lean into these turns. We got to accelerate through these times. People are going like it's just and those skills like I'm not saying you strive like that. I'm saying those skills translate to other things. And I don't know the same thing goes by the way. Like if I went on a beach vacation once and we were at this kind of like all inclusive thing where they came around asked you if you wanted something to drink? And I was like, Oh, I would I would like this. Thank you. 20 minutes later, I said to my wife, where is my drink? She's like, why don't like it's been 15 minutes. And then 20 minutes goes by and it's a half an hour later. And I'm out of my mind. People doing what is happening. She comes back so lovely. Hey, how are you? Here's your drink. And I like Kelly's like, calm down. I'm like, calm down.

Unknown Speaker 58:52
I don't even want it now.

Scott Benner 58:55
We went to a restaurant in Georgia the other day. We're getting ready to pick it up from college. And like we got down there a couple days early. And Kelly and I are just kind of chilling out like we don't relax enough. The story might play might paint that picture. But we got there a couple days early to help her get packed up, move some stuff into storage, and we were just really going to try to relax. And we did. I only took like four or five business calls for the podcast while we were there. And still oversaw the management of the Facebook page. But I was relaxing. And we get up one day to go to lunch. And we're finished lunch and we go back to the hotel. And I said to Kelly, it just took us two hours to eat lunch. And it wasn't because we were chilling out it was because of how slow everything moves. I swear to you, I don't understand, like, like around here you're eating it. Like you're still eating and the waitress is like here's the check no pressure but you know, get the hell out of here. You're taking that space. Yeah, I don't know. Maybe I would love it but it sounds like it wore off on you kind of nicely. Do you have Appreciate it now. Oh,

Unknown Speaker 1:00:01
yeah, for sure. My life's a lot less stressful.

Scott Benner 1:00:05
Except for the diabetes, except you have type one diabetes now. Should I try this? Do you think she should go to the south and beat myself into submission? Yeah,

Speaker 1 1:00:13
go on like a sabbatical for a few years. Because you know, you, you show up there, right. And everyone knows you're not from there. Oh, I would imagine. Yeah. And then they're, like, really taken aback. They're like, I needs to chill the fuck out.

Scott Benner 1:00:27
You mean, like, because we crossed the street when the little hand says don't cross and I'm like, There's nothing coming. Why would I not go?

Speaker 1 1:00:34
Yeah, like driving around like a maniac are walking like a maniac talking like,

Scott Benner 1:00:39
the seven people at a corner. There's not a car in sight. The little thing says, Don't walk. And I'm looking at him. Like, what are we doing? Across the street? This is ridiculous. You know, right. Like, we're all just standing here for no reason whatsoever. They don't seem like even aware of it. Like, oh, the hand says don't walk, I'll stand here till the hand tells me otherwise. And I'm like, walking guy, I

Unknown Speaker 1:01:03
can't walk. Right here.

Scott Benner 1:01:05
I'm like, here, I'll tell you a secret. When people stop for me when I'm crossing the street in the South. They do it because it's just what they do. And I waved to them. Because in my mind, I'm like, what a gracious thing this person has done for me. I'm like, thank you. And they look at you like, why are you waving to me? And I'm like, you stopped while I was in the road? How lovely of you. Thank you. What a wonderful person. Meanwhile, my wife's like I you know, it's cool if you keep waving at it, but I don't think they expect that. I was like, oh, oh, this is just what they do. That's fine. Yeah.

Speaker 1 1:01:43
People would think me at my at my job to be like, thank you. And I'm like, why are you thinking I'm doing my job? Like, that's why I'm here.

Scott Benner 1:01:52
Right? Well, here's the underbelly of this thinking, if I'm being honest with you. I think people in the Northeast keep the world moving. Like, like, we work at a different pace than a lot of the rest of you. Like I before we got on here. I was telling Dave a story about how I was working till like midnight last night on the podcast. And I had this a file had to go through a process before I could move on. So I had like this 20 minute wait. So I went and sat with my wife for like, 20 minutes in bed. And then I fell asleep. And my eyes opened at 330 to the thought, oh my God, I didn't put the episode up for today. I got out of bed, woke myself up, recorded five more minutes of audio, stitch the episode together the rest of the way and put it online. And then I couldn't go back to sleep till like six in the morning because I was like wide awake after that. I'm certain if I lived in South Carolina, I would have thought I'll pull up later. Oh, yeah, but not me. I would never do that. I'm like, No, like when we went away to see art and for to pick her up, bring her back and all that stuff. We actually stitched a couple of days on the beginning of the trip, we slid into Atlanta and saw my son for like 48 hours went to a Braves game. They were playing the Phillies, I wouldn't just go to a Braves game. And although let me say this really, I can't believe I'm admitting this out loud. Really great. Experiencing a game at Brave state at that brave stadium is really, really great. Anyway, so my son slipped over to Chicago where my daughter's gone to college, I think I'm supposed to say hung out there a little bit and, and came home. But in order to do that, I had to prep two weeks of the podcast and and post it ahead of time. So for 10 days before we left on the trip, I did like three and a half weeks worth of work. And I never left this room like for for a week and a half. And I never thought twice about that. Like it didn't even occur to me that that's not a thing you would do like I'm sure most people would be like just let the podcast be awful week. It's why you're losers. It's why I'm winning and you'll lose. I gotta move, man. Hey, you're so till now? I can't even tell you from Massachusetts.

Unknown Speaker 1:04:14
Yeah, don't even sound like it right?

Scott Benner 1:04:16
No, you're so chill. Is everybody comes out in traffic as in form of yelling, where do you actually get irritated?

Speaker 1 1:04:23
Oh, it's like all the things. You know, like if I had like, I'm like, open the sunroof and throw a handful of change out of a bad guy just did.

Scott Benner 1:04:35
There's no way most people know what you're talking about. So a woman was tailgating me on the way down to Georgia. So I washed my windshield so we'd get on her windshield. Murderous. Would I shoot a rocket at or if I had one? I don't think so. But can you promises we're going 85 miles an hour and she's eight inches from Me and I'm like, oh back her up by getting her windshield wet. So I did it. She backed up because obviously she it took her attention away for a second. And she's like, you know, instead of driving like Mario Kart, she was like she was obviously from the northeast, by the way, she had a different license plate. And she backed off, cleared her windshield, and then immediately flew back up on us again. Yeah, so my wife goes, my wife's like, Don't do it again. I'm like, Oh, we're definitely doing it again. So we did it again. She backed up again. On the second time, she figured out what was happening. Oh, and it pissed her off. And I was so delighted that she was angry.

Speaker 1 1:05:41
Yeah, that was the point, right? Like, get a reaction. I mean, I was beeping at someone the other day not turning right. And I was like, What is this guy doing? There's people crossing the street in the crosswalk my Oh,

Scott Benner 1:05:53
well, I have diabetes. These times going low. All right, I'm not going to tell the story of the time that we got cut off in traffic going to the Jersey Shore. And I threw a water bottle out of a convertible and squeezed in between the three inch gap in someone's back window that was down and then watch the water bottle bend in half, go through the gap explode water inside of the car. And that I felt like I won the Olympics. When I did. That everyone in the car was like, oh my god, like we've won something. And I won't also tell you that the person driving my car was a police officer. Then you get a free pass. Right? You do it every don't come here. If you don't live here, you're not gonna make it.

Unknown Speaker 1:06:45
The stories are true. You're an

Scott Benner 1:06:47
Idaho right now. You're like, I might move to New York. Don't worry. We're gonna eat you alive. But if you can make it then matter, respect. Yeah. My sister in law. First time she came in to visit us from Wisconsin. She'd really never been out of Wisconsin. I picked her up at Newark. And we went out in the parking lot. I know, she won't mind me telling her this, I think. And there's a hotel and then in the Newark airport parking lot. It's maybe 12 or 15 storeys high. And she goes, that's the tallest building I've ever seen. was like, Well, when we get out of this parking lot, your mind is gonna catch on fire when you see the cityscape of New York across the river. And then we went out on the, on the turnpike with, you know, multiple lanes of traffic, everyone going 90 miles an hour, and she was having a full on panic attack in the car. She goes, I've never seen this many cars together at once. I was like, well get ready. Because they're all gonna try to kill us in the next couple of minutes. And we're gonna try to kill them. And it's gonna be fun. It's called commuting. Yeah, we're just trying to get from point A to point B. I don't know why there should be like, major psychological research on this part of the country. But especially like, I mean, Massachusetts rates so cold there. I don't even know how you exist. I'm not tough enough to live in Boston.

Speaker 1 1:08:19
Massachusetts is a cold, dark place. I

Scott Benner 1:08:24
couldn't do it. Like, I mean, I live here. And I'm still like, I don't know. I saw this thing the other day. There's, this is hippie looking guy. Like he could live in Salt Lake with a long beard. And he's like doing his like, Tiktok video and he's like, here's the things you're doing man that are like, messing you up. I'm like, Oh, I'm gonna be doing all these. And sure enough, he's like, you know, like, can't get upset when you're driving, man. You can't and I'm like, Oh, I couldn't smoke enough weed to be as mellow as that guy. Everything he said you shouldn't do I had a really good argument in my head for why I think it's a good thing. Anyway, Dave, all right. Do we know what the baby's gonna be? Not that I'm asking you to say but do we know? Yeah, it's a boy. Oh, wow. Congratulations. Yeah,

Speaker 1 1:09:14
hopefully he's a some sort of professional skier so I can retire early. Well,

Scott Benner 1:09:18
if this kid that you're related to is any indication, are you built like the kid that was in miracle? Yeah, similarly, yeah. Big strong boy. Yeah, I'd like to see your kid do a little Deewan something. Yeah, get you a little money off on college. Maybe for it. That's the goal, right? It's my only goal. Like my son's like, I'm gonna play as soon as the first time I sent that I'm gonna play baseball in college, but I heard was, Oh, I'm gonna save money. Yes, you are, meanwhile, doesn't work out that way. They have all the money that went into getting him to be a college baseball player. Is the money we saved when he went to college.

Speaker 1 1:09:55
Yeah, if he if he was if he has aspirations to play ice hockey are in big trouble such

Scott Benner 1:10:00
an expensive sport, right? The gear, the rink time, you have to part you have to pay for as well, right? Yeah,

Speaker 1 1:10:07
I grew up playing hockey and I took I took a lot of convincing for my parents to find let me do it. And now I absolutely understand why.

Scott Benner 1:10:15
No, and the parents are freezing because they stand outside and it's freezing cold the whole time, like I've been to. My son was working out at Penn once. Yeah, there was also a hockey game going on at the same time, but it was summertime. And the bathroom was in the rink. The bathroom closest to the field we were at was in the rink. And so I walked in there and as soon as you open the door, you're like, oh my god, it's freezing cold there, which is lovely if you're outside, but I looked at the parents. It's a summer month. They're dressed like it's wintertime. Yeah. Boots and jackets and like like, like long johns and watching their kids play ice hockey. And I was like,

Speaker 1 1:10:54
Yeah, I went to I went to boarding school in New York, primarily to play hockey. And we used to have morning practices. The rink was so cold that the water would freeze on your jersey if it spilled out of the water bottle. Yeah, exactly. That. Frozen jersey.

Scott Benner 1:11:10
The heats tough. That time I mentioned where my son went to Atlanta to do that workout is that where he actually and by the way, not where he met the coaches that wanted him to play in college. So he met two of them, but it didn't work out. But there was a day they played two. And after the SEC at the second game, I was I'm not joking, standing up next to a telephone pole. And I was rotating around the telephone pole to keep the sun from hitting me. That's how terrible it was. And humid on top of all that. And I'm just standing there like having a real like, parenting moment where I'm like, I think I should go get him. Like I don't like I don't think this is okay. You know, like, that's how hard it was. And the game ended. And I'm like, are you alright? He's okay, I'm fine. But he wasn't he was like, staring through me. And we had like a rental car with like a Styrofoam like, you know, disposable styrofoam cooler in it and all the of the ice had melted from the day. And we go to the back of the car, my son's kind of back then at least he was he was a little like, demure. Like he wasn't a kid who would just whip off a shirt in front of people and stuff like that, which was always weird to me. I was in such good shape. I was like, if I was in that shape, I wouldn't be wearing a shirt but like, okay, and so he is standing in the parking lot. He looks at me, he looks at the cooler and he goes, Can I have that? And I'm like, Yeah, sure. He takes his pants off, kicks them aside, takes his shirt off. He's standing there in sliding shorts and underwear. He grabs the cooler and picks it up over his head and dumps the freezing cold water over his head. And as it's splashing on my legs, the waters hitting me and it's hot. Oh, no. And I'm like, are you okay? And he goes, I don't know. I'll be okay. I think so. And I was he's like, he was like, really like that. So I'm throwing liquid at him bananas. I'm like, Here, eat this drink this like you got back to the hotel. That air conditioning hit him in the hotel. He fell asleep for hours. And it was the stroke. Oh my god, vicious man. And he gets up the next day. And we went right back to a baseball game. I was like, You love this? I don't love anything that much. I'd be like, I'm sorry. It's hot out here.

Unknown Speaker 1:13:32
Yeah, I'll come back when it's cool. Yeah.

Scott Benner 1:13:35
Would you like to do this in the fall? Because I'd be fine. And then the that week ends with the recruiter from North Carolina, telling him he wasn't tall enough. Great. And it was hard. really heartbreaking. He had played so well that weekend, and he was still young. And he just grew my son. For anybody who cares. He grew a little too late. He kept growing into college. So now he's six feet tall, and you know, was playing at 200 pounds. And, you know, very frequently, opposing coaches would come up to him after games and say, Why are you playing here? Like that would happen to him a lot. And he'd go, I grew in my freshman year, and they'd be like, okay, and he was getting he was getting a great degree. And he we just didn't like people were like, transfer and I'm like, uh, he can't just go get this degree somewhere else. Like he was a little stuck at that point. Yeah, but anyway, that would happen a lot. Like he went out to drive line to train during COVID in Seattle. And he's hitting in a cage one day and one of the instructors comes up to him to tell him you know, he's like, I love your swing, and they're talking about everything. And then my son went over and pitched and through like a 92 mile an hour fastball and the guy grabs him it goes, what college do you go to? And he told him and he goes, why? What happened? And my son just I I grew late and the guy goes, Oh, tough luck. It really really is like that easy. Anyway, I bring that up because he's playing as soft one day and in Georgia this this recruiter comes over to me and he goes That's your son in centerfield. And I said, Yes, he goes, we're interested and I was like, God damn, I looked at his shirt and it said Tar Heels and I was like, honestly Dave I was like we won it's over like this it is you know starts off asking about his grades his grades all line up. He's watching them play out in centerfield. He's like kids amazing. He's like, what a fielder, blah, blah. Such an arm like in that game Cole had Cole hit what was going to be a ball off the wall and right, Senator, excuse me, he played a ball off the wall that was going to be a ball off the wall and in right center field, and he was in center. And instead of it being a ball off the wall, he caught the ball, like going into the fence. And the runner at second was held by the base coach at third. So he was tagging, right? And so on a professional baseball field. My 16 year old son caught a ball in the warning track and right center field. And throughout the runner trying to tag go to third in the air. Oh my god, like the ball was waiting when he got there. Like, like the kid looked up like what the? Yeah, I'm out. Like it was like that, right? Because it will he couldn't even slide the third baseman was holding the ball out in front of him. Can't approach the kids like I don't understand. And then he just gave himself up and it was over. Like that's how how the ball got there. So the the North Carolina guy sees this, and he's like, man, crazy arm, blah, blah, blah. Then later, my son comes in and pitches like a clean inning. And he's like, we're really interested. He's like, I want to talk to him after the game. And I'm just like texting my wife. I'm like, get ready for the baby blues baby. And game ends and I go get cold. And I say hey, there's a guy here wants to talk to you. He's like a coach. I'm like, Hey, he's all excited. And we walk over to him, and we walk up and the guy looks at him and goes, how tall are you? Cold goes, I'm like 510. But I'm still growing. And he goes, I'm sorry. We're not interested.

Speaker 1 1:17:10
Oh my gosh, was that quick? That's actually where my wife went to grad school. Yeah,

Scott Benner 1:17:16
well, I'll tell him. Next time she's there to take a piss on the ball field for me.

Unknown Speaker 1:17:20
We're new fans. So

Scott Benner 1:17:23
well, I am now too. But no. And so my son's like, me, you can imagine he's crestfallen. Right? Like he's like looking like what's happening. And the guy just sort of starts to walk away. And I put my hand on his shoulder and I was like, wait, wait, wait, stop. I'm like, I don't understand what just happened. And he goes, my coach isn't going to put him out there at that height. And I was like, He's growing. I'm like, I'm like, I know. I'm five, nine. I'm like, but every man on my wife side of the family is like six, five, I'm like, he's gonna be over six feet tall. And I'm like, you can just tell like, I mean, we've had his growth plates looked at like, he's nowhere near done. And the guy goes, Man, you're really great ballplayer. He goes, like, but my guy won't put you out there. He's like, he's like, even if I got you through, you'd never play. And it's wild. And I was like, what do we do? And the guy said, he goes, Look, find a bunch of colleges, you want to play baseball at that fit your academic needs. And then look at the rosters and see if they let guys your height play. And he's like, and then target those schools. So we did that. And Cole had 20 offers to play college baseball. And it's awesome. Yeah, like except that a year after he committed he grew two inches. Yeah, right. Told you. Yeah. And then it was just like too late by then. So my 93 mile an hour throwing son, is that a d3 school? And they don't even like, I mean, I don't want to talk about this. But it's not like baseball was wasn't first and foremost. You know what I mean? So you end up playing behind guys whose dad's donated to the building of something and it wasn't as much about baseball, so ended up being a fairly disappointing experience for him, which is, sucks, but is the truth. So anyway, now we talked forever, Dave, and I'm getting texts from Arden that just says, I'm hungry. I responded back to her when you were in college, you fed yourself and she's like, but I'm home now.

Unknown Speaker 1:19:29
Yeah, you know, it's sometimes it when it's dinnertime, I'm like, you know, I don't feel like doing math right now. Can you just make a bowl and guess how many units I mean?

Scott Benner 1:19:40
Like, your wife's an angel? Yeah,

Unknown Speaker 1:19:42
we'll do five and we'll go from there.

Scott Benner 1:19:43
You know, if she was from Boston, and you were from North Carolina, and you said that she'd be like, no. Yeah, just looking at your cross. That'd be the end of it. Yeah, Dave, I appreciate you doing this with me. Thank you very much.

Unknown Speaker 1:19:56
Yeah, no problems. Good time.

Scott Benner 1:19:57
Yeah, hold on a second. I

want to thank Dave for coming on the show today and sharing his story. And I'd like you to remember that having an easy to use and accurate blood glucose meter is just one click away. Contour next one.com/juicebox That's right Today's episode is sponsored by the contour next gen blood glucose meter. If you're not already subscribed or following in your favorite audio app, please take the time now to do that. It really helps the show and get those automatic downloads set up so you never miss an episode

if you're looking for community around type one diabetes, check out the Juicebox Podcast private Facebook group Juicebox Podcast type one diabetes, but everybody is welcome type one type two gestational loved ones. It doesn't matter to me. If you're impacted by diabetes, and you're looking for support, comfort or community check out Juicebox Podcast type one diabetes on Facebook. Thank you so much for listening. I'll be back soon with another episode of The Juicebox Podcast. The episode you just heard was professionally edited by wrong way recording. Wrong way recording.com

#1091 Parenting: More Parenting Styles

Scott and Erika talk about more parenting styles and the importance in educating ourselves to understand all the terms including attachment parenting and theory, gentle parenting movement, and co-parenting.

+ Click for EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Scott Benner 0:00
Hello friends, welcome to episode 1091 of the Juicebox Podcast.

Today, I welcome back Erica for another episode in our parenting series and today Eric and I are gonna talk about even more parenting styles. If you'd like to learn more about Erica, she's available to you at Erica forsythe.com. Nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise, always consult a physician before making any changes to your health care plan. If you're not already subscribed or following in your favorite audio app, please take the time now to do that it really helps the show and get those automatic downloads set up so you never miss an episode.

Don't forget to save 40% off of your entire order at cozy earth.com All you have to do is use the offer code juice box at checkout that's juice box at checkout to save 40% at cosy earth.com

This episode of The Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by touched by type one touched by type one.org. And find them on Facebook and Instagram touched by type one is an organization dedicated to helping people living with type one diabetes. And they have so many different programs that are doing just that check them out at touched by type one.org. Today's episode of The Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by the Dexcom G seven, which now integrates with a tandem T slim x two system. Learn more and get started today at dexcom.com/juicebox. Erica, welcome back. How are you?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 2:11
Thank you. It's good to be back with John. Well, how are you pretty

Scott Benner 2:14
well, actually. Thank you. I'm enjoying making this with you. And as I told you privately, I'm actually listening to it myself, which I hope people don't think it's weird. But I listened back to a number of these. I'm thinking to myself like wow, these are good. I had the thought that like this could be its own podcast about parenting. So that's a good sign.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 2:34
Yes, thank you. Yeah, no, no,

Scott Benner 2:36
it's been a pleasure doing it with you. And you've brought so much to it that I never could have. So I mean, I can't thank you enough. Oh, you're welcome. Today, we are going to do more parenting styles. So if you've been listening from the beginning, then you know that episode two, which is really kind of episode one, because the first episode was just us brainstorming what this whole thing would be. The first real like informational episode of this series is called Understanding parenting styles. Today, we're going to do a little more on that. And yes, and I want you to kind of tell people why you thought this next bit was important. So

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 3:15
I think it's important for us to educate ourselves and understand the theory, I want to focus on attachment theory primarily. Because oftentimes, we we are raised, you know, starting off as a newborn and infant there is an attachment style that you as a parent and you as also the infant are exposed to and oftentimes we are unaware of the term. So I think it's helpful just first and to educate ourselves and bring us to an awareness of what those styles are. And probably most of us have heard or these before, but also that they can manifest themselves as an adult in your in your romantic relationships. And I also wanted to talk about gentle parenting, which you most of you probably have seen on social media has become this kind of big movement. I think it's important for us to speak to that a little bit as well.

Scott Benner 4:12
Erica, at the end of this hour, am I going to find out why I like feet. I was gonna say but I don't like feet. But what am I going to? What am I going to learn about myself while we're talking? I'm scared.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 4:26
Yes, maybe or why or why feet make you nervous or what?

Scott Benner 4:29
Okay, all right. Let's get into it. Now. I can't wait to find out why what I think is attractive is attractive. This is this is gonna be upsetting. It's gonna be something about my mom, isn't it? Okay. Hold on. Give me a second. Give me a second to get ready for that in my mind. So where do we start with attachment parenting and attachment theory? Do we kind of want to go over those?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 4:52
Yes, I think that's great. So attachment. We probably have all heard the word attachment. It's the points as a parent. And I think it's really important to distinguish that attachment parenting is different than attachment theory. And so starting with attachment parenting. This was developed by pediatrician William Sears and registered nurse, nurse, Martha Sears in the 80s 1980s. And I know that their book became really popular in the 80s. And they were specifically advocating for this collection of seven practices that they called the baby bees. Shall I list them? So birth bonding, breastfeeding, baby, we're wearing bedding close to the baby belief in the baby's cry, balance and boundaries. And beware of baby trainers.

Scott Benner 5:54
Some of them some of them jump out at me as being obvious, but I don't think babywearing means turning the baby into a suit coat. So what does all this what does all this mean?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 6:02
Yes, so this was kind of in response to maybe more of a kind of strict authoritarian movement of you know, parents know best in you know, I'm stereotyping in the 50s 60s and, and then an evolution in the 70s and 80s There was this response to No, you need to really be connected to your baby, literally, you know, physically any way you can. And so yes, birth bonding that's you know, when we you know, skin to skin, like do you want in the hospital, but the baby on on the mother's chest, breastfeeding baby wearing, you're wearing, there's a huge growth and the, oh my goodness, you know, the slings and the baby carriers, betting close to the baby, you know, having cosleeping belief in the baby's cry if the baby's crying, go meet the need immediately, having balance and boundaries. So also having an understanding that you can't always meet all of the needs, but there really was a strong emphasis on always responding to the baby's cry. And then beware of baby trainers. To be honest, I'm not exactly sure there must have been an influx of baby training going on, you know, in home and house hiring like poachers, but yeah, oh, okay.

Scott Benner 7:21
I think so William Sears would have would have come up in the 40s. Right, he would have done his formative years through the 40s 1940s. And he would have been a teen in the 1950s. Yes, yeah. Okay. So yeah, so that means that it mean, it must mean that his theories are rooted in, in what he experienced and what he was, took his education and then applied back to himself and said, Here's what I think I needed. Is that fair? Like, you know, I

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 7:50
think that's fair. Yes, yes. And I think I wanted to start with this most recent style, because that's what I think people think of in creating a secure attachment.

Scott Benner 8:01
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Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 9:24
That you have to you have you know breast is best that whole movement, you have to breastfeed you have to co sleep you have to do skin to skin in order to create a very secure attachment between the baby and the caregiver. And what this led to is that most guilt ridden mothers who just could not maintain this type of connection all of the time. And so they had this theory that everyone's reading their book, and thinking this is what I have to do to be an ideal mother and then the reality As they're exhausted, and the babies, you know, they're feeling like the baby's needs aren't being met. So they are leading into their own shame. And what research has come out to explain or kind of prove that following the baby bees didn't predict secure attachment. And so that's where, and I think, well, now we can go back to what is attachment theory. But that's where I think people are like, wait, I have to do all these things to create the secure attachment my baby, but I can't do it all. I must be a terrible mother.

Scott Benner 10:33
Okay. Long term. It didn't prove out to be that completely valuable. Correct. Okay, great,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 10:38
then we'll we'll go into some, some explanations.

Scott Benner 10:42
Yeah, please, I'm, I'm listening to you on this one. So go ahead and keep guys questions when I have them.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 10:48
So, actual attachment theory was developed by John Bowlby in the 1930s. He was a psychoanalyst, psychologist, and he was in England. And then Mary Farnsworth who was from America, she joined him in the 1950s. And together based on lots of observations, scientific, you know, research and analysis, they created this attachment theory. And what it basically what they through kind of observing, they would observe babies, and usually mothers or their primary caregivers in in rooms. And they would notice that some of the children's beat babies behaviors, they could start kind of categorizing when the mom left the room, would they cry for a little bit? And then start playing again? Would they scream and run after? or crawl after the mom? Or would they totally ignore the mom? And not like not even really care? And then they would also observe how do the babies respond when the mother re enters the room? Are they are they avoided? Are they ambivalent? Or do they kind of reach up and say, like, Mommy, you know, hug me. So through that, they developed a theory of attachment and basically came up with that the secure attachment is formed when the caregivers are responsive to the to the baby's needs, they're warm, they're loving, they're emotionally available. And then, and then as a result, babies understand that the caregiver can handle their feelings, they feel secure, and knowing that the caregiver will be there. And in a truly formed secure attachment. They also know that they can handle stress, so that if when the mother leaves, the baby responds, like, Oh, I'm gonna miss my mom, I'm gonna cry. And I'm verbalizing obviously, what mostly they've thought through their expressions, I'm gonna cry a little bit, but then I'm gonna go back to my own thing, and I'm gonna start playing, I'm going to be okay. And then when mom comes back, I'm going to want to reconnect with her. And so through all of this research, they learned that okay to have a secure attachment between the caregiver and in the initial research, it was mother and baby, but now they have seen the US as any kind of primary caregiver could be grandparent, father. Yeah, anything. So in the secure attachment, we chain, caregiver and baby, they're really wanting to through your emotional regulation and attentiveness to the attunement to the baby's needs, you are providing that sense of safety and security, you're helping regulate the baby's emotions, right. So if they're crying, you're meeting their needs. But sometimes it's not like immediate, there's always that discussion of like, Did you let your baby cry for one minute or five minutes or 10 minutes? To kind of understanding the cries? This is all like, through attunement, right? of maybe the baby's just fussy, or is the baby hungry? Is it tired, and you're also being able to respond to the baby's expressions and validating their expressions. And, ultimately, one of them to feel secure that my kid that the caregiver is going to be there for them, but also learning how to handle distress, and then being able to cope with that a little bit? Yeah, that's a lot. Sorry. No, no,

Scott Benner 14:15
I wonder how I mean, everybody's different. And every babies are different, too. They have personalities. And I mean, I have two kids, and you could hear cry, there's pain, when they cry, there's distress, there's anger, like you can hear all that, you know, as you as you do it longer. And I'm thinking like, what if it was just three different kids in the room? And are they basing did they basically say like, this is what we see collectively. You're either going to get this reaction, this reaction or this reaction, not necessarily everyone's going to have this that or the other thing. You don't mean like, like, I know, you're just doing you they're doing research, right, but, but it was so long ago, like, where they don't I mean, were they just like He saw a thing that no one's ever seen before it's a rule, or, or does this play out like in modern time? Do you? Can you ask questions of parents and say, oh, yeah, this is how I'm seeing the kid. And they're telling me that's how they were raised. Those two things match up.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 15:16
Yes, sometimes or in as an adult, will come in and realize, as they're starting to parent, they're noticing kind of the tendencies of how they're parenting and then the remembering of a child, how did they feel? Yeah, the way they're, they were parented. And I think attachment theory has become pretty common, and that people will often say, you know, I was an anxious I had an anxious attachment, or I was, you know, was an avoidant. And so I think your question of, is this, how every single caregiver and baby interaction is formed? I don't know, I honestly I couldn't.

Scott Benner 15:57
That's a big question. I didn't expect to hear the answer to it. Yeah, I just, I'm just interested in, in that idea, like, you know, there are people come on the podcast all the time, they'll explain the stories from their life. And I'll think, Oh, I had that happen to me. And I had the exact opposite reaction to it. That That in itself is fascinating, right? Because now is the parent. Even if you say the first one goes, well, you're like, hey, I have another baby, and it comes out, you start doing the same stuff. You go, Oh, that's not working with this one. You know, because different people, except when they're little babies, they all feel like, you know, like stuffed animals or like, Oh, it's a baby, you don't think too much of the rest of it until I guess it can feel like it's too late sometimes, or you're so stuck in what you do that you're like, I don't know what else to do. Either. This is how I was raised, or I did it with the last one. I don't know where to go from here. You know, and, and how do you like, how do you see the baby's reaction? And give it back what it needs? I guess the one of the bees probably is really good advice, the belief and babies cry. Like that one, to me seems like it would apply bigger to parenting, like Believe, believe them? You don't I mean, if they say they're mad, they're mad, that kind of stuff. Right?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 17:12
Yes. And that's where the research and I some of this information, there's, there's just great if you're really interested in this, you know, you could Google the attachment theory and learn a lot about it. One article that I thought was really great in explaining some of the differences was from greater good.berkeley.edu. And it's why Attachment Parenting is different, are not the same as secure attachment. And you're right about believe that babies cry. So having that emotional, attunement and responsiveness and validating that they're feeling you're taking their feelings seriously. Right. That's it's all about the validation. But the difference can be seen or noted that sometimes what they saw with people who were following the Attachment Parenting is like you're you're overdoing it and having to, you're trying to meet the child's every need every request. Sure. And that can be exhausting. And that's when it's also counterproductive. Because I love this quote that they said, in contrast, research on secure attachments shows that in the flow of everyday life, Miss attunements happen about 70% of the time, and Miss attunements meaning that maybe the caregiver doesn't respond to the cry immediately because you're having to do something else. Or maybe you're trying to feed the baby, and he's actually tired. And so there's a lot more grace and invalidation. And like having that secure attachment that 70% of the time, you're kind of missing the mark. Yeah. And I think that's really something to note, because with the secure attachment, the baby learns that not only the beep, that the caregiver is going to be there and take the feelings seriously and listen to the baby's cries. But there's also going to be that mismatch missing kind of the mark. And then there's the repair that we talked about, even as you know that your child's older, you can you can repair that and say, oops, I you guys, you are hungry. You weren't tired, or vice

Scott Benner 19:09
versa, right? We can forget what happened just now. I'll give you knew better experience. And we'll keep moving like that. Because you're never because yeah, because three out a looks like three out of 10 times you're over. Remember we talked about that too? Even that pops up again here. 70 Isn't that interesting? Again? Yeah. I hope everybody listened to all the way through, they know what I'm talking about. But oh, that's really interesting. Listen, I think that it makes total sense for the baby to come out and spend time with the mom if it can after birth that just that I mean just common sense wise, there's, I mean, a lot has happened to both of you in the last couple of minutes. It'd be nice to just chill out for a minute and and meet each other. Right. Totally makes sense to me. Breastfeeding. I mean, there was a couple of decades there while everybody was like formula feeding their kids, right, like breastfeeding was like a hippie idea. Like for a while which is odd Add, isn't it odd how we were able to like, take something so natural and make it like weird, you know, like no, no buy this and now by the way, now it's hard to find formula since cope since COVID. And and you hear people going, Oh, just breastfeed, it's great way to do it. You're like, Yeah, nobody knows what they're talking about is all I think every time I hear something get out, we make these rules up even this, this, you know, William Sears and his his work, right? He's probably just first in a modern era to think about that. That's, it's really it. I mean, prior to that, people were turning out babies like livestock because they didn't even think they were gonna live. And they're just trying to get a couple to like, you know what I mean, to go the distance even? And I bet you, that's part of where that parenting style comes from, too. Like, how am I gonna get so attached to this kid, if he's gonna get rubella when he's four and, and I gotta put him in the ground. You know what I mean? Like, and I live in a box. And we're, we never know if we're gonna make it through the winter. And like, like, I don't know how you that's got to be for your own personal, I would think, right? Like, Oh, yes. So when life's harder, we become more modernized. life's harder. You can't be that attached to your kids. Because what if they, what if you lose them, and then we get more and more modern life gets safer and safer, people live longer. There's not as much infant mortality, that all happens, but we're still wired to be like, and what if that thing dies, I don't want to love it too much. And then this guy comes along, and drags us into more modern thinking about being human to our own children. That's really interesting. And then he tries to come up with the best way he can to write a book that people will buy so that he can get people to pay attention to this thing.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 21:41
Yeah. That's a great synopsis. Yeah. I think yeah, with with the breastfeeding example, the, one of the things as, as you know, the breast is best movement came about, I remember even hearing that in when I delivered my children and, you know, 2015. And I think, what, what, six, what the difference between the secure attachment and then the parenting, Attachment Parenting is that either can provide a secure attachment, breastfeeding, or bottle feeding, right? Because you can, you can put your baby on to the breast and be very methodical and be doing other things. And your that's not like that warm connection, right? In the same way you can cuddle and love and make eye contact with your baby while feeding them the bottle. And that is just as connecting and forming that secure attachment as breastfeeding. And I think that we're that place that was misunderstood for a long time. Yeah,

Scott Benner 22:44
no, I just, I mean, if you really look at this, and translated into modern times, right, we're doing this right now, by the way, we're doing what William Sears did right now, but we're recording it. And it's available for people very quickly, and they hear it instead of have to read it. It's you ever thought I ever thought we're sharing it with somebody? That's what he did, right? But back then, once he did it, they didn't need to do it again, because there was a book, they could sell it. It was done already. That's how they think of it now you're just constantly pushing people's ideas out in the world. And then the, you know, then people get to listen and decide for themselves. This makes sense to me. I think that technology is going to move us away from this idea that these are the rules. And then that'll be freeing to people in a generation or two, that they don't have to say, oh, you know what? I didn't breastfeed. I'm a bad mom. Right? Yeah. Right. Like, like, because it's not a rule anymore a rule, but I'm making quotes, you know? Not that you wouldn't want to if you could, I'm not saying don't breastfeed. I'm not saying any of this like, I mean, again, baby wearing, I don't understand what that is, do you know what that is? That's

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 23:54
that's what's like the slings or the rat or like the emoji? Like the baby.

Scott Benner 24:02
I don't want the kids to love me that no, just kidding. I'm not like, that's not a thing we ever did, right? I think the Baby Bjorn was getting popular as my kids were maybe getting a little older. Bedding close to the baby. We did that with both of our kids when they were newborns in a bassinet near the bag. You know that mean for your own? Sadly, maybe as much as for them to feel close. But also, isn't that another? I know when I say common sense. Sometimes people get upset with me. But there isn't a common sense thing not to take a three year old day old baby into another room and plop it down and be like good luck. You know, like, I don't know, like it felt weird to me for the kid to be that not that close to us until you were comfortable that Jesus they could roll over if they got in trouble or you know what I mean? Like anything like that really? Well. Yeah. And

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 24:46
then the critic would say though betting close to the baby, is that then also co sleeping where the risk could be that you roll on to the baby, or you do let the baby sleep with you until you're eight and there's You know, obviously everyone has a viewpoint on that. Yeah. So what what I think the critics now say, well, that doesn't, that's not going to form because it says Attachment Parenting that's not going to form the secure attachment. These are there aren't these like quick twig tricks.

Scott Benner 25:17
So that's my point. And by the way, when you say critics, here's what I think people who also want to put their opinion out on the internet, but need an alternate perspective, because the thing that they're arguing with has already been done enough that they can't get into the space. Like, that's, that's what I hear when you say that, but I'll tell you what, listen, I agree. I mean, it can't go on forever, right? Like, it's, there's gotta be like a cut off point, I'll tell you when we stopped doing it. So I used to, we used to be very, very broke. And when we were young, and Kelly had to get on a train every day to go to work, but we could not afford to pay for the parking permit at the train station. As I look back now, I believe it was $60 a month. And we were like, it sounded like somebody said, We need a million dollars for you to park your car here because we couldn't we couldn't come up with it. So I would get up every morning at like five o'clock, and put coal in a carrier and drive Kelly to the train station. And then I'd come back and most days we'd start our life, you know, get going. But there was this one day, I was freaking exhausted. Like really, and I said, I have to sleep, I have to get a little more sleep. And I thought, okay, like He looks tired still. And I brought him in into our bed. And I made like a little pillow fort around him. So I couldn't roll right on him. And I thought I had it all set up. And I'm asleep. And I still to this day can't explain what happened. But in my sleep. I felt him rolling out of the bed. And I I was on my back. And I flung myself towards him reaching with my arm over the over the mattress. And I got his onesie as he was falling to the ground and pulled him back up like a slinky. Oh my God, it was insane. Okay, like a crane very gently brought him back over the bed, set him down. And then I went from exhausted and asleep to like, wow, I was like, I was like jacked up with adrenaline, right? I was like, Oh, hey, buddy, hey, buddy. And he doesn't even I didn't even know. You don't mean? Like, he's just looking at me like, Hey, what's up, man? And so I get I'm like, it's gonna be fine. I was killed. And then I said to my wife, Hey, maybe I shouldn't be doing this anymore. Because I if if I was gonna fall back asleep, he needed to be somewhere secure, not not just with me. And then we let it go. He was maybe, I don't know, nine months old when we stopped doing that. You know, and he didn't sleep was asleep with us overnight. But there were times that it was always around exhaustion. If he was cranky or sick, then we'd bring him with us because we were like, I can't keep getting up and down like this. You know, survival. Yeah. By the way, if we lived in a teepee, we'd all be on the floor next to each other anyway, so I don't know.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 28:02
And then now they have very cool contraptions that I forget what it's called. It was just getting popular when we were kind of out of that phase, the dark DockAtot I

Scott Benner 28:13
feel like you're making that up. DockAtot

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 28:17
DockAtot you have to Google it where you know, they're in your bed. That's like a bassinet, but in your bed, but then it has like a like a no, it's

Scott Benner 28:24
yeah, you found it. Yeah.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 28:27
DockAtot Yeah. So they do have they have cool little chap. Yeah. Yeah. Oh,

Scott Benner 28:32
please, there's no shortage of things that will take your money while you're having a baby. So by the way, you will give away most of them still in the packaging after the babies have grown up. You'll have like three things you like, I can't live without these the rest of the stuff I do not care about. Yeah, so Okay. Well, that's, I mean, okay, so like, where does that leave us? Like, if I'm, if somebody did the BS with me, or if somebody you know, jumped forward and did Valerie's stuff and, and worked like, where do I end up as a person? Like, how do I look at myself as an adult? And look back about how I was raised because that's the only way we're going to be able to tell people who are raising kids now like, this is your goal. And this may be what's gonna get you to

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 29:12
that. Yes. So what what is interesting with the secure attachment theory that I don't have an exact name to give you but they've done worse research to identify that typically the way that your attachment was formed with your caregiver, you then we kind of live that out and project that onto your romantic partner. So most often, we we kind of expect or think or hope that our romantic partners or live out will act the way our caregivers did. So if you were raised with the secure attachment from your caregiver, knowing that your needs were validated, your needs were met, your emotions were validated. You also had some space to experience some stress and then implement some coping skills you were you then kind of project that obviously be the healthiest romantic relationship, right like where you your needs are met, you're also have, they're not like constantly on each other or needing that right from each other. So that would be the secure attachment in adults. There's the avoidant attachment, which you might be, you might hear like the anxious avoidant experience and children, and that we can totally aligned with the four parenting styles, which we spoke about in the first episode, that this might be similar to kind of the uninvolved or neglectful parents, someone who might be you maybe you were raised as a child, as an infant, you are the child, the parent is either really doesn't care or is or is just really busy and stressed. And so you might have this anxious avoidant attachment style. And then that might also you project that into your romantic relationship. So

Scott Benner 30:59
if, if a parent was this dismissive of you for any number of reasons, then you're going to have that feeling like someone's going to avoid you as an adult. And that gives you anxiety. When you're in that relationship. You're like, oh, no, they're gonna do this thing to me. Yes.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 31:15
Okay. Yes, the third style is, so as a child anxious ambivalent, and children, this could be you could kind of equate this to the permissive parenting style, which is pretty inconsistent. And so as an adult in your relationship with the, if you're in an anxious attachment style, you might have a real significant fear of abandonment in the relationship. And not necessarily you're not really secure in that in that space with your partner, the last one, and we can go back and like yeah, we hash these. Yeah, please is a fearful avoidant, and children, that would be the attachment style as a child, and then you would, we would categorize this as disorganized attachment styles as an adult, we could maybe compare this to authoritarian parenting style, but it's actually even, it would be more equated to if you were, there was a lot of trauma or abuse, and you had real fear. Okay, of your of your caregiver. Alright,

Scott Benner 32:21
so let's go back through them. So okay, so avoidant, which is similar to uninvolved would be if a parent may was dismissive of you, and then it would give you that anxious avoidance in your in the child.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 32:35
Right. So like, some examples would be if the as, as a child, the caregiver, kind of left you to fend for yourself. They really they expected you to be independent in ways that maybe weren't developmentally appropriate. And then maybe if you if you needed them, you were either reprimanded or rejected. And so that that would kind of look like

Scott Benner 32:56
as a child, yeah. But then what does that translate to as me as a partner for somebody as an adult?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 33:01
So maybe you're avoiding emotional intimacy or physical intimacy, you probably have, maybe you have a real strong sense of independence, because that's how you learn how to cope and survive, you might not be comfortable expressing your feelings, because if you did, as a child, you were either reprimanded or ignored. You might have a hard time trusting people or or feel threatened. Like if anyone does try to it just goes back to kind of avoiding the emotional physical intimacy if you're feeling like, Ah, this person is trying to get close to me. And and then you might want to spend more time alone. Okay, and don't really feel like you need other people because you never learned how to how to do that. Yeah.

Scott Benner 33:43
And by the way, you can end up being this person. And this not be the parenting style that you were. I mean, like there's other ways to get to this stuff too. Sure. Sure. Right. Okay. All right. Give me the next one. So similar to permissive, anxious, preoccupied anxious ambivalent, in children, so there's anxious avoidant and anxious ambivalent?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 34:07
Yes. Okay. So that first one we just did was anxious. avoidant, avoidant. And the second one anxious avoidant

Scott Benner 34:16
ambivalent,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 34:17
excuse me, thank you. You have kind of well, I guess, as a child, you were listed see the best easiest way to do this without getting your parent maybe you were there. They kind of alternated between like overly in your space and like overly coddling and overly meeting your needs? Or were totally kind of detached and indifferent.

Scott Benner 34:43
This could go back and forth. From that. Yes. Oh, so there are parents who are like all in or all out? Yes, yeah. Okay. All right.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 34:50
So maybe they're really kind of attentive and then and then the next day they push you away. This could be fright for so many reasons. Like this is not

Scott Benner 34:57
true. No, no, it's not it's not like it's not it's Got a condemnation of anybody like you might maybe on the weekends you're real intense and then Monday through Friday you're like, I'm busy. I'm working that kind of Yeah,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 35:08
right. Yeah. Also, the without these is all maybe subconsciously the parent the caregiver, maybe made the child feel responsible for how the parent felt. And so that the child might often grow up thinking okay, I need to take care of other people's feelings and can lead to kind of some codependence okay. So as an adult, if you're noticing in your relationships, that maybe you're, you're leaning towards kind of clean D tendencies, tendencies, or maybe an in jealous of other people or other relationships, you might have difficulty being alone. Typically, like low self esteem, feeling unworthy of things like perceived particularly unworthy of love, right? Definite fear of rejection, significant fear of abandonment, right? Like whatever you do, please don't leave me in that comes from that inconsistent. I'm here I'm meeting your needs. And the next day being right. Totally different as a parent, right. So that isn't being jerked around

Scott Benner 36:13
is what it is. Yes. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So, you know, it's funny, I'm sorry, we talked so much through this about just being consistent and stable. That that really is just a bedrock of parenting. Like, it almost doesn't matter which one you are, as long as you're consistent about it, like so that a kid can like, can say, or at least I know this what this is what this is right? And, and showing love, no matter the situation if you're a hard worker Monday through Friday, and you can't pull yourself away, but but you can still communicate stability. I'll be home at five o'clock. We're definitely going to do this together. I love you. Like that kind of stuff. Yeah, I think that's, it sounds to me. Like that's still a repairable variable to parenting, like you talked about earlier. Yeah. Like you can still get ahead of that. It's, people don't know, this is what they're doing, right? Because right, you'll just like, make an excuse, like, I got to work hard, because I gotta make money. And that's that, or whatever else. And I guess too, if you're, if you're parented, this way, it leads to you doing this in your relationship. You're gonna do it to your kid to ensure a parent, then. And so then it just kind of keeps isn't it interesting, too, that we none of us do this while we're courting and dating. Right? Like, I mean, it's an easy joke to say like, Oh, you'll meet me after you can't get away. We know enough not to show it to people when we want them to like us. That's fascinating to me. Like, it really is like, because I don't think it's that diabolical when people do it. I don't think they think oh, this is weird part of my personality. I'm gonna keep it to myself. People know how to act. They just have to do it on purpose.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 38:01
Take a lot of work. Yeah. And is that sustainable?

Scott Benner 38:05
But do you think they're just acting like, I mean, there's got to be people who have gotten married and like, I was sold a bill of goods like, this is not, this ain't who you are, you know what I mean? And that happens all the time. Right? Sure.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 38:16
Sure. But that also could be a result of, you know, so many external variables to Oh, yeah, no,

Scott Benner 38:22
please. Yeah, I'm not saying that. There's only one way to get to this. There's so many ways to get to a unhappy, unpleasant life.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 38:28
And there's so many ways to to evolve out of that and to get

Scott Benner 38:32
out of it exactly to and again, over and over again, the answer is see it recognize it, do something about it, start over again, not instead of just like it's too late or it's not going to work out for me or whatever, or any of these you know, let me let me get let you get to the last one to to fearful avoidant, and I'll ask my other question. Okay.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 38:55
And I think before we go to the last one too, as you're hearing these kind of summaries or signs just to remind you that there is hope that none of these attachment styles are even though they they feel fixed. There can be growth to kind of undo these you know, particularly through you know, deep therapy work of re parenting if you have trauma like this next one will you know you can do I highly recommend EMDR you know, to help kind of reparent yourself and reform format your attachment style. And so this last one, the disorganized attachment style, they might seem this is really kind of based on trauma, neglect, abuse, and just kind of fear of fear of their parents fear of like they're just kind of general safety is pretty present in this childhood attachment signs as an adult that you might have a disorganized attachment styles, you know, definitely fear of rejection. Pretty you have difficulty with rank relating your emotions, pretty contradictory behaviors, because you haven't really, you don't really know how to like ground yourself and regulate yourself. High levels of anxiety, difficulty trusting people, which would make a lot of sense all of these things. And as well as signs of the other two styles that we just talked about the avoidant and the anxious attachment styles. And also we see a little bit we see more mood problems with this type of style, but it also makes a lot of sense.

Scott Benner 40:29
Am I more screwed if I meet another person who has the same style as me? And I'm in a relationship is that because because at least if you have a different one, like I think of my wife and I as having broken each other, like wild horses, like you don't I mean, like he's, we were young when we met, and my wife and I went to therapy, like when we were young and married. And I guarantee you that if I found a therapist right now, and it was like, Hey, we're still married, he'd be like, get the fuck out of here real quick. Be like, Oh, I lost 50 bucks with a guy gotta go pay. I'm like, usually, like, but but I think we had enough. If I if I can break us down a little bit. I think we had enough intellectual prowess to see what we were doing and to work our way through it. But if I were to look at these three, parenting styles, I would say I clearly fit. I think I think I fit into disorganized as a parenting style. My dad was kind of abusive. My mom didn't stick up for me when that happened, although I felt very loved by my mom. So I probably have a little bit of the avoidant, more of the disorganized, like, I'm probably a blend right in there. A little bit of that, right. I don't have any anxiety from it for some reason, although I would describe myself and this was one of the other questions I want to ask you. Because I'm adopted. I did have I'm adopted, and from a family of divorce. I definitely had that like, Oh, God, nobody go anywhere feeling like, like, and I've had abandonment. And I've said on here before, until I got older and like, figured out that you couldn't do that. If there was a problem between people even in my family of the four of us, I had this horrible feeling that if we didn't fix it right now, their doom was on its way. Like we couldn't argue without finishing it. And and coming to a resolution because I would get like this feeling of like, Oh, God, this is it. It's all over. Yeah, you know, like, someone's gonna leave. Like, that's how it felt to me. I don't feel that way anymore. But I got there, because my wife, who was probably raised, like, you know, being a vote like, nobody really connecting with her emotionally or even intellectually, plus, she was in her family, the kid who was getting good grades, they didn't even feel like they had to help her with school. You know, like she was kind of on her own, a little bit of a misfit as far as the family organization when she didn't quite fit in with the rest of them. So I feel like she took a little bit of that parental abuse that she received. And she found a way to artfully and purposefully use it on me to drag me out of that disorganized state I was in. Does that make sense? Yes, okay. Yes. And then I was able to use the kind of more like, artistic part of how I think about life. And I mean, you guys know how I feel. You hear me talking all the time, like that whole thing. And she was stuck in a very kind of like Catholic rules and regulations. We're not saying we're not real nice to each other, we don't show too much love. Even if I'll tell you the one thing I can't like that's took her the longest time to get away from was her parents would only say something nice about her through a proxy. So she didn't know that her dad was impressed by her. She talked to her father's friend who said, Oh, your dad told me the story about this thing you did. But he would never say to her directly, right. And so I'm kind of trying to, I've been trying to bring her into that more like loving, caring, like, feeling that she didn't have that. Yeah, that I actually did have growing up, and maybe I had it for my mom, or maybe, maybe I developed it for my brothers. And knew like, I'm not clear on that in my life, if it all came from my mom, or if I saw how much my brothers needed somebody and I kind of became that thing for them. But anyway, I was able to give that to her. And that's difficult to, to drag a person out of that kind of like, I don't want to just call it cold, but it is it's like kind of a more cold state. And like to bring them out of it is tough. Like there's still times if I hug my wife, she'll get uncomfortable after a while. I've known her for 27 years, and she gets a little like, don't be too nice to me feeling. You know what I mean? If she ever hears that, she's gonna be mortified. But just you know, it's true. I just let it go. So I was a mess. I'm not saying I wasn't. But But if two people get I often interview somebody, I just interviewed this kid the other day. He's bipolar. He's medicated now he's doing pretty well. But he's dating a person who's also struggling with mental health issues. And I part of me thinks, well that makes sense because who's going to understand them better? But then I thought, well, who the hell is gonna save them? Like you don't I mean, like there's no one there to know the other side of This, am I onto something with that by any chance?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 45:02
Well, I think, yes, anything where you can be attracted to someone either in the opposite attachment style, or oftentimes you see, like, if you're in the codependent place, right, you're gonna be in that where you could be in that naturally in a relationship with someone who's equally as codependent and you kind of feed each other in that so it can be unhealthy in a way. I think that the, the way that you and Kelly, were able to work on yourselves, and then how you interacted with each other's is remarkable. And whether that was you know, you had the awareness. And then you also sought help to have that, like, objective observer. And then you had the motivation to do that, or the intent. And

Scott Benner 45:49
she was also really great about it and intent on it. Like she definitely saved me before I was able to, like the thing she gave me she gave me before I was able to complete the things I was able to give her like, I don't know if that makes sense or not. Yeah, and I think that's because as a female, I think she was more emotionally mature when we were younger than I was. I mean, I honestly think that's part of it. And probably a little bit of that, like Catholic Irish, like I'm not getting divorced, we're fixing this, like like that kind of thing to get an email is helpful little stick to itiveness and not wanting to bail right away. But so you know, the thing that just popped in my head, I don't know how reasonable it is to say out loud. But if I treat my daughter one way, she ends up with a bad guy. If I treat her another way, she's got a better chance of not she won't gravitate towards people who are like more chaotic and likely to hurt her and stuff like that. Just talking about it from this perspective first. But which is that like, what do I want to give her so that she doesn't end up on a motorcycle in Arizona smokin math?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 46:51
Oh, well love tension. And I think this, the authority going back to her that you know, the authoritative parenting style, right? Like having her she knows how to she knows that she can trust her caregiver to meet her needs, but also isn't so dependent on it, right? Like there's this balance of I can meet my own needs. But I also am comfortable and confident in asking for my needs to be met. And I know that I want somebody who will validate my feelings and not dismiss them, and won't get one ignore them.

Scott Benner 47:34
And if I'm a big scumbag, as a dad, everything's a party, and I'm not really giving those things, then she's going to look for someone like me to get the approval of someone romantically that she couldn't have gotten parentally

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 47:47
I mean, in it, yes. As it. Yeah.

Scott Benner 47:54
I know that everything's not exact, but that can happen. Oh, how many people you got to talk to but if you hear the same story over and over again and think there's probably not a lot of different stories under the sun, you know what I mean? So, so same thing with a boy like how do I nurture a boy, so that they're kind, but not a pushover and, and so that they're masculine in a way that they're going to need without being an asshole? Like, that's, to me seems like the balancing act for raising a son like how are you going to make them a man without making them a dick. And, you know what I mean, it we're making them somebody who just, you know, is so overly concerned with, how they come off. And if they're being polite, I know, this doesn't sound politically correct. I don't even care. But like, like Unity, like, like, it's just, like, that's what you're trying to do. Right? You're like you're trying to raise a boy that they can take care of themselves and hopefully, lead, you know, take care of other people. And without them over indulging that kind of male ego thing and without under indulging it. And then the same for a girl you're trying to you're trying to create a person who can lead a group and take care of their family without being you know, I don't know, what would be the correlation there without, I don't know, being a princess or like, whatever. And, you know, and you know, not having any, I don't know, whatever that brings along, or without going the other way. And being an absolute like pushover again, and just doing what another person tells them to do. I mean, like, we can all pretend that things are different. But those are, those are pretty much your worries for your daughter and your son when they're going out the door. You know what I mean? So I don't want some guy on my daughter, then treating her terribly. I want her to be able to stick up for herself and understand who she is, and be able to lead her own life and make her own decisions. I also don't want her to be like some like ice princess who like, you know, nobody can connect with. And yeah, I think I got it all out. That's what I mean. That's what you want. None of that's getting edited. That's exactly what I mean. Okay, I don't want my son to be an asshole and I don't want to be a pushover, and I don't want my daughter to be a nice Princess and I don't want her to get taken advantage. Jump. Those were the things I was thinking of when I was raising my kids. So I don't know if that's general,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 50:04
it's you sounds like you wanted and, you know, developed and nurtured, secure, confident individuals, right. Like, I mean, I hear I hear your, you know, kind of the, the differences a little bit in the gender expectations. But I think what I hear above all of that is secure, confident, compassionate individuals you can, can be confident and communicate their needs, they can also be compassionate and validate others

Scott Benner 50:33
without going too far in either direction. Like, right without. And by the way, I don't know Arden's still not done. I don't know how well we did with her, like, not being so assertive that it could be off putting this on people like and I don't know that it matters, it only needs to not be off putting to one person, right. So like, like, I'm not saying you have to bend to some like social conformity. But I'm not sure yet because she's still a little young. And she's very confident. And when she expresses that confidence, it can it comes off. I mean, people have her on here. She's, she's not a grappler. Maybe she's aggressive. I don't know what the Yeah, with the I don't know what they were, I think I'm aggressive. So like, I don't know what the I don't mean that in a bad way. I mean, like, you know, you and I are going to get to a conversation, I am going to say what I want to say, and that's going to be the end of it. And I think and if I also want to hear what you're gonna say, but I'm not going to apologize for how I feel, or condemn you for how you feel. I think I'm getting there with I think she's getting to that. She's just not quite done yet. If that makes I hope she never hears that she's a wonderful person. She's just not quite. She's not as mature. She's going to be one day, you know, I don't know it. Sorry. Go ahead. No, I don't know what I'm saying.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 51:47
Yeah, you're I mean, you're going to, you know, I even thinking about, you know, our communication dialogues around like aggressive versus assertive communication, being assertive, oftentimes can be perceived as not feminine air quotes. And assertive is identifying how you're feeling while holding the other person's opinion. You know, holding it literally, like I recognize, you might have a different opinion. But this is how I feel what you just said. And I think going back to our parenting styles and secure attachments and your question in the beginning, you can raise your children with a secure attachment, but they also have different personalities. And so that doesn't mean that they aren't securely attached, or they aren't formed, or developed in a way that like is ideal, but because you see, you know, she has a different personality. And then, but I also hear you that, you know, there's still that growth that you're

Scott Benner 52:43
hoping for, but but like the real question, everybody's wondering is how do I raise a kid doesn't end up in a bar on Coke, and it's the secure, it's authoritative, secure, right? Like, that's the way to go?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 52:55
Yes, yeah. And modeling, you know, modeling, as we've talked about over and over, and attending and meeting their needs, and then apologizing because we're not perfect, right? Repairing?

Scott Benner 53:07
And are you going to have any, like, let's say, a person who's like a hot mess themselves, somehow pulls it together to be a great parent is still not going to help completely though, right? Because like the, it's still the modeling is incredibly important. It's what you're showing them is, in the end, what they're going to think is real. Like, do as I say, not as I do is going to come into play, I would imagine as the kid gets older.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 53:30
Yes. So. So if you're saying if you had an insecure, there's like the secure attachment and the other three insecure attachments. So you're saying if if you were raised with an insecure attachment, but somehow you kind of pulled yourself together as a parent, and

Scott Benner 53:47
said the right things, but didn't do the right things? Like like I'm saying from a parenting situation, if I was saying the right thing, but not doing it, is my kid not still gonna be like, he said that, but I see what he's doing. He's doing or do you it's still better than nothing I would imagine. But, you know, a perfect situation is going to be you being, you know, a role model, right? And like, like really being it not just pretending to be because they sniffed through that in three seconds. Like your bullshit isn't gonna, like cover, you can't cover your bolts with perfume and this one, that's for sure. You know, like kids are gonna figure that out in two seconds. And so all right, everyone go to therapy. That's what I heard I

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 54:29
know for sure. And I think there is just there's always hope, you know, for for healing and opportunity to be compassionate. No,

Scott Benner 54:37
I believe I really believe that to like, you have to want to and you have to know enough to, to work towards it and everything. But I can't tell you how much I believe in the idea. And how much after recording with people over and over and over again, I'm telling you this stuff. Nine times out of 10 is going to work out just like this like there's There are not a lot of there are a lot of people running around, you know, the CEO of a small fortune 500 company whose dad grew up doing coke in front of them in the living room. It just didn't work. It doesn't work that way. And I just talked to this kid the other day. Like I was saying earlier, he's in my head now, because you know, you have mental health issues, a lot of anxiety has some suicidal ideation. I said, What was it like growing up? Oh, my dad was a meth and coke. Like, wow. And I'm like, Yeah, I mean, that's how I even said to him, like, what chance did you even have? And he laughed. He's like, not much. And I was like, Yeah, right. Like, he's so bright, and he understands and he knows. And still, this all happened to him because somebody else put him in that situation. Yeah, I don't know. It's It's upsetting. To be honest. Your last little bit here, you have gentle parenting. Yes.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 55:44
So I think just like, you know, in the 1950s, the secure or the attachment theory was developed. And then the 1980s, Sears and Sears came out with the baby bees. And now more recently, you probably are hearing about gentle parenting. And, in general, as you know, some critics suggest that this movement isn't, is not based on scholarship, or research or science, but it's more of kind of an approach or mindset. And so I think it's important to to, to remember that, that it is something that is it's this movement that's grown mainly on social media. And I'm not trying to be little or dismissive, because I think there's some really great tenants to it. And in general, when you when people have done some, you know, anecdotal research online, when they ask what is gentle parenting, they usually say it's, quote, staying calm and challenging moments with their kids, and validating their kids big feelings. This is from the conversation.com. Okay, and so we're like, we Yes, we have heard that. We have just talked about it in a lot of these episodes. But the emphasis is just that, like, stay calm, and validate the big feelings. And I applaud that, I think, where people are feeling badly about themselves, because it's impossible to do constantly write, so then you end up in this space of like, I'm never going to be a gentle parent, I'm never gonna be a good enough parent, because I can't validate all of their big feelings, and I can't just stay calm all of the time. Right. And so I just wanted to just share that note about the gentle parenting movement that there is a lot of there's a great value in it, but also, it's impossible to do. Yeah, 24/7 Listen,

Scott Benner 57:29
you all can listen to whatever you want. But, you know, take it for me. Don't be a shithead. Don't get high and drunk around your kids, give them a foundation, be stable, love them and hang out with them a little bit. All done. Like I mean, come on. It's not that hard. If they if they strike out trying to yell, what the fuck are you doing? Ask them. Like, I mean, I've seen people do it. What the fuck are you doing? Well, he's striking out because he's eight. Like, like, that's what he's doing. I watched a woman stand behind a batting cage one time and give a kid instruction during the pitch. There's a mom, she's like, get your leg down, do this. I'm like, Oh my god. He's trying to hit a baseball. She's four feet behind him yelling through the umpire and the catcher into this kid's ear while he's hitting. Do you want to guess if the kid was any good at baseball, he was not. So like, and by the way, and he appeared to hate his mother. And I was like, what? And by the way, here's the last part of it. Erica, they never made sense to me. They were little tiny people, the mom and the dad. And I thought what do you think this kid's gonna grow up to be six, five. Like just, he's not doing this in college. Just let him go hit the stupid baseball and have fun and it'll do it for a couple of years. No, go find something else. And they'll have a happy memory of you and them and being here. And he won't remember that. He struck out. They were trying to turn him into. They were trying to turn him into Derek Jeter when he was six. I saw the kid recently three feet tall. Like I mean, it just it was never gonna happen. They created all that bad feeling around that kid for no reason. Like, listen, whoever. I don't know what they did to Bryce Harper, when they were raising him, but all right, God bless. Okay, because that guy's a monster, and he can hit a baseball and if he's a little sad in his personal life, I'm okay with it because it makes TV better. Okay, but But you know what I mean? Like, it's not everybody, it just, it's such a, you're going to disagree with me. But is this not relatively simple? At its core? I know it's not because of the way you were raised and everything that happened to you and finances and all that I know it becomes muddy. But at its core, just love people, show them consistency, be there for them. There's not much more to it than that is there?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 59:48
I think yes. It's simple in definition and can get messy in implementation. And then in that messiness, where do you go in your mind can you offer that compassion to yourself and to your child. Right. I think that's, that's where I would land.

Scott Benner 1:00:05
Yeah. And you know, where the major problem here is, is that our initial attraction when we're in our breeding ages is visual, and firm loans and stuff like that, like nobody stops to talk and say, I wonder if me and her might get along. Or if we have, like, you know, backgrounds that will support each other and create like, it's not how we do it we go man, her hair's really pretty. That guy shoulders are amazing. All right, let's go. Anyway, don't don't date in a bar that might give you a better chance to. I don't know what to say. Well, okay, as always, I'm completely dismayed at the end of our conversation. Oh, God, I appreciate that. I kept you long. I really do appreciate it.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:00:53
You're welcome. Thank you. Thanks.

Scott Benner 1:01:04
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