Scott Benner 4/7/23 Scott Benner 4/7/23

#885 Type 2 Diabetes Pro Tip: GLP1, Metformin and Insulin

A series for people with pre and Type 2 diabetes.

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DISCLAIMER: This text is the output of AI based transcribing from an audio recording. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors and should not be treated as an authoritative record. Nothing that you read here constitutes advice medical or otherwise. Always consult with a healthcare professional before making changes to a healthcare plan.

00:00:28 GLP ones can be beneficial.
00:09:44 Insulin and metformin for type 2 diabetes.
00:14:45 Metformin can help with weight loss and may have longevity benefits.
00:18:25 Consult physician before starting medication.
00:27:06 GLP1s can aid in weight loss.
00:34:18 Lifestyle change and satiation matter.
00:39:30 Mindless eating and constant access.
00:43:05 GLP1s can be beneficial for diabetes and weight loss.
00:50:23 Medication can help improve health.
00:55:02 Weight loss medications can have positive impacts on healthcare.
01:00:11 Weight loss lifestyle requires commitment.

Scott Benner 0:00
Hello friends, welcome to episode 885 of the Juicebox Podcast.

Jenny Smith is back today and we're going to do another in the Type Two diabetes Pro Tip series. Today we're going to talk about medications like GLP ones, insulin Metformin, and we're going to touch on a few others, this may end up being a part one of two, because we get pretty far into the conversation about the GLP ones. Now if you don't know what those are, those are ozempic but Jarno, these are once weekly injectables made for type two diabetes. While you're listening today, please remember that nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise, always consult a physician before making any changes to your health care plan. You can get 10% off your first month of therapy@betterhelp.com forward slash juicebox. And you can save 35% on your entire order at cozy earth.com. When you use the offer code choose box at checkout because the Earth is towels sheets. Oh my gosh, Sweatshirts, sweatpants really great stuff cozy earth.com use the offer code juice box at checkout to save 35% off your entire order. This episode of The Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by Dexcom, makers of the Dexcom G six and Dexcom G seven continuous glucose monitoring systems. Whether you have type one diabetes, or type two diabetes, seeing your blood sugar in real time is a game changer. dexcom.com forward slash juicebox. Jenny Hello. Hi, we are back. And we have a number of episodes in our type two Pro Tip series already up and being consumed by people just terrific. Today we're going to talk about medications that people with type two might find themselves using. So I struggled there

Jennifer Smith, CDE 2:21
are so many yes medication.

Scott Benner 2:24
I struggled to ask you if we should begin with what's hot right now in the news, which is like GLP ones or if we should just start with insulin and end with GLP ones. So I think insulin,

Jennifer Smith, CDE 2:38
start with insulin, I

Scott Benner 2:39
think so I want them to understand how it works. And then we can tell you later how these other things might help them as well.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 2:45
Okay, because it's not I would. And that's great, because I think I think I'm the mind of a lot of people with type two is that insulin is going to be in the picture at some point. So I think answering what is insulin? How does it work? What is it supposed to do? etc? is good to start with? I think in terms of where people might start, once they're diagnosed, may not necessarily be insulin, in fact, that may be very far down the road, or maybe not at all. You know, but I think there are lots to discuss. So we can start with insulin because we know insulin right? Yeah,

Scott Benner 3:25
we can talk about that. And we can talk about that. And I do think that, from what I'm learning these GLP ones really could be a situation where if you are in a pre diabetes situation, type two even, it's possible that you could get out of being in that category with the GLP ones at some point. Do you think that's true? Do you think they could keep people at bay for even a lifetime?

Jennifer Smith, CDE 3:52
In fact, in terms of you know, like the GLP ones, and the other ones that we'll discuss and talk about? They should actually from a lot of the new standards that are done by the ADEA. Right, the standards of diabetes care, not only should we be individualizing, management person to person, right? It used to be a chart that was followed start with this go to this move to this but we really do need to and the standards of care suggests to personalize to really in depth talk to the person that you're working with from the clinical standpoint and say, hey, you know, what are your lifestyle factors? Where are your glucose levels, what lifestyle changes have been put into place? Let's look at the meds that one we could use that would be beneficial. And oftentimes the GLP ones and that these newer kinds should actually be more of a front line rather than insulin honestly. And because they have they have a lot more protective. And we'll talk a little bit more about it. Obviously, there are a lot more protective components to some of these newer meds as well. And they're protective in many of the things that we talk about in terms of diabetes complications. So why wouldn't we want to start with some medications that can prove very beneficial in many avenues of type to management, weight management, nutrition intake, glucose management, all of that stuff? Why wouldn't we start with them versus something that might be old school and doesn't fit their need? Really? Yeah.

Scott Benner 5:37
And that makes me think, too of metformin, which is taken in a pill. But that's a drug it's been around with since the 50s. Maybe?

Jennifer Smith, CDE 5:45
For me, yeah. And I think, oh, my gosh, Metformin. I'd, it was like one of the it's like the first, if I remember,

Scott Benner 5:55
there is as much research about Metformin, and insulin and diabetes and weight as there is about longevity. Like there is a ton of metformin research around longevity as well. Yes. Yes, I think we can, that'll seep into the conversation as we go. But let's just start with insulin because, sure, because what if somebody with type two finding themselves here and they're already on insulin? Yes. So I mean, what is it? You need to know? Really? If you have type two, are they going to put you on a Basal insulin?

Jennifer Smith, CDE 6:31
Yeah, yes. Is anything possible with insulin with type two? Yes, absolutely. They could potentially see that when they're looking at glucose levels, especially if you have a CGM, or if you're just doing finger sticks, your fasting glucose level is not meeting target, right under 100 is what we're aiming for. Then, they may start you on just a Basal insulin, with the goal being of overall lowering that background glucose level to get you waking at a fasting target level. Yeah. Right. So yes, Basil could be a first start. If we're talking just insulin in use, and Basal insulin. It's the foundation of kind of management, it's, it's kind of what keeps things stable. If you were to live in a world without food, and without stress, and without anything else, those variables that impact blood sugar, your Basal insulin should hold things stable.

Scott Benner 7:35
Yeah. So in type two, if my average blood sugar is like 120, all day long, for example, and I might inject the Basal insulin once a day, and then I might see my average blood sugar sit lower, hopefully, you know, and, and maybe I see spikes at meals, but they come back pretty quickly on their own. And so just the Basal might help but if that's not the case, then I also might get a mealtime insulin as well to inject to compensate for food.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 8:05
Correct rapid acting insulin Yes. And, and rapid being that mean rapid. We hate the word rapid when we talk about insulin because it's it's not as fast as like instantaneous action. It takes, you know, 2030 minutes for it to really get going and get moving. But its action profile is really short where Basal insulin you may take once a day, and it has about a 24 hour effect. Rapid insulin is much shorter, it goes in and out. So it clears within about three to five hours is the average right?

Scott Benner 8:41
Yeah. So you you might find yourself just using a Basal insulin which is a once a day background insulin, you might find yourself using a meal insulin along with it. Is there a world where they would give you mealtime insulin but not Basal? No,

Jennifer Smith, CDE 8:57
that's not where there might be. But that's not something that I've seen. Lately, and there are other meds obviously we're going to talk about a lot of the meds. There might be some other meds that are in use and maybe maybe the mealtime management is not going as well. The other meds are helping in one way. But the mealtime navigation, it just needs it needs some insulin to assist, right? That might be a scenario where there is some rapid acting insulin added to kind of assist in that picture. But typically not if you're not using a basil. You wouldn't really only be using a rapid insulin without a beat. So

Scott Benner 9:38
the progression might be basil. If that doesn't help then mealtime. Do people do basil and metformin? Yes, yes. Okay. I'm trying to think of what I would wonder if I had type two diabetes that's that's where my brain is like skipping around to right now.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 9:54
Well, and a big reason as you just mentioned, might you do Basal insulin and like a Metformin I And remember that Metformin is not one that really increases the risk of hypoglycemia or low blood sugar. Whereas insulins job, I mean, it's its main job is to bring your blood sugar levels down, right? Your pancreas has really good management of all of that, it's just part of what your body should naturally be able to do. So your body doesn't naturally drop your blood sugar too low. But when we take an injectable form of insulin, it's dose management. Okay? So it's, it's really, we have to be very careful in adding oral medications, if there is insulin in the picture, that those oral medications are also dosed appropriately taking at the right time, and that they're also not potentially going to be something that's going to increase the risk of low blood sugars because somebody's already taking insulin, right? So Metformin is a very safe one, so to speak. Because obviously, its job isn't to really help release extra insulin from your pancreas, it does help your body to use insulin better, it's an insulin sensitizer to some degree, helps your body to release less glucose, essentially, from your liver. And that helps to keep the glucose levels more stable. Right. So but again, it doesn't help your body make more insulin. Okay. All right. So,

Scott Benner 11:32
so can we should we talk a little bit about Metformin here? Sure. Okay. So I don't know anything about this. Hey, Jenny, Metformin, go,

Jennifer Smith, CDE 11:43
Metformin? Yes. I mean, there's, you know, gluco, fysh, is as another kind of name for Metformin, right, you can take various forms and extended release, which many times people will actually tolerate better, the extended release, it's slower, it doesn't have as, like quick upfront action, Metformin, the nice thing about it is that its side effects are very minimal. Upon starting it, the most common side effect is going to be a little bit of like nausea, or sometimes stomach upset, sometimes a little bit of softer stool. But honestly, those symptoms typically go away. Within about a week or two, after starting it, we also start Metformin at a really low dose to begin with to evaluate tolerance. Many times you may not see much impact from that starting low dose. And so then as tolerance is there, we can increase to more therapeutic doses. And that's done along with the doctors kind of assisting you to titrate that to

Scott Benner 12:54
do a lot of people see a Metformin given by a doctor prior to insulin, right. That's sort of their first step. Usually,

Jennifer Smith, CDE 13:01
that used to be yes, I think with again, some of the newer meds that we'll talk about, sometimes Now, if you've got a really good doctor who is following a lot of the standards of care again, Metformin might be started, but it might also be started again, along with one of these newer meds. The goal being containment of blood sugar sooner than later. Yeah, to really get things as protected for some of those other complications that, you know, we want to try to avoid.

Scott Benner 13:31
Why why do we let me see if you know the answer to this, why do we see what's the phrase I don't want to use it? It's not pejorative for me, but bro science like, why do you see those guys using Metformin in general like they like so what does Metformin do besides, besides help you with your blood sugar, it's also impacting other things, right?

Jennifer Smith, CDE 13:54
Sure, Metformin is one of one of the few oral meds that has been shown in research to have a minor effect on weight, meaning it doesn't, it doesn't increase the risk of gaining weight. If anything, people will lose a slight amount of weight or at least be able to maintain weight. Some of the other medications because of the way that they work can actually not be as beneficial in terms of weight loss, along with lifestyle changes and everything else that somebody with diabetes needs to be making. Metformin is one that can help you to lose a little bit of weight. It's not going to be astounding weight loss, like 1020 30 pounds, but anything taken off can be beneficial. So that's one one positive side effect, I guess, of using the medication.

Scott Benner 14:50
I googled Metformin, longevity. And I hit A Harvard study that says preliminary studies suggest that Metformin may actually slow aging and increase Life expectancy by improving the body's responsive responsiveness to insulin, anti oxidant effects and improving blood vessel health. So I don't know how right or wrong that is. But I do know there's a ton of research about Metformin,

Jennifer Smith, CDE 15:18
longevity, longevity. Well, and when you also, longevity also speaks to me in terms of ability to use long term to not just in terms of the body, but also in terms of safety, safety, right? Because medications, as we know, outside of insulin insolence got a job, it does its job, it gets cleared, you take more of it. It's not like it really does other things in that, like it doesn't impact like your eyeballs and make them grow green spots. Right. We are I hope, not.

Scott Benner 15:55
Wondering why your imagination jumped to that. But okay,

Jennifer Smith, CDE 15:57
yeah, I don't know. Yes. Well, I have kids, you know, they've, they're all about monsters and dragons and weird things. So you know, but a lot of medications in many areas, not just diabetes, they have impact. And thus, all the commercials on television, you hear if you have any of these side effects, or you notice any of this and sometimes those commercials, I'm like, Man, I think I'd rather live with this. See the side effects, you know, but Metformin is one that is truly mostly gi side effects. And are there some people that the GI side effects are so much that they don't go away? They get worse, and they actually can't continue on it? Absolutely. It's not as many people but there are some people that it just isn't tolerated. Is there

Scott Benner 16:43
any way to know what that's tied to when they can't tolerate it? Is it people trying to like continue their dieting from prior, like their fueling plan hasn't changed? There's no connection that you can think of?

Jennifer Smith, CDE 16:55
Okay, no, I mean, I'm sure that maybe there are some studies that I've not read or looked at in terms of why some people have symptoms, or that those symptoms are so bad that they just can't even tolerate it going above the starting dose.

Scott Benner 17:10
But yeah, I think when you're sick, or that it's not an answer, for sure.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 17:13
Yeah. And with you know, Metformin that kind of brings up when should you take it, we most often recommend on starting people take it with their meals, right? So on starting, we usually say start taking it with your breakfast meal, or with extended release, usually recommend taking that with your evening meal, right? Because there's a long term action profile of it. Taking it with a meal decreases the chance of that stomach upset. And I even often tell people take it in the middle of the meal, like sandwiches, eat a little bit, take the Med, eat the rest of your meals, it's kind of like plopped between. Right.

Scott Benner 17:51
The break up in your stomach without hitting harshly somewhere.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 17:55
Yes, exactly. I mean, there are some some, certainly some kind of cautions, obviously, with liver or some kidney problems. Those are some reasons that consideration for not using or paying attention to tests for liver and kidney function would be important if it was a med that was started. But those are some of the things that again, your doctor would be able to pay attention to, and know whether or not they should even prescribe it. Yeah,

Scott Benner 18:29
I mean, I think it goes beyond saying but consult your physician, pay close attention, be in contact, you know, do your own research those things. Yes, exactly. You mentioned when to take it. So I'll just add this. It's kind of one of those things. That seems simple, but you might not think of it. If you're gonna start a medication like this. Do it on the weekend. Or when you're not working, you know, if you have off Tuesday and Wednesday, started on Tuesday, right? Yeah,

Jennifer Smith, CDE 18:58
absolutely. Because then you have a visual to any potential side effect that's going to be negative. And you've got time to deal with it before having to go you know, you take it in the morning, you have this big board meeting presentation and your stomach is going wrong. is probably not the best thing.

Scott Benner 19:18
You don't want to be at work going. I think I'm gonna have loose stools.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 19:21
No, not a good idea.

Scott Benner 19:24
At home on Saturdays what I'm saying? Yes, that's all be

Jennifer Smith, CDE 19:29
close to your own toilet. Yes.

Scott Benner 19:30
So we're not going to see like huge effects from Metformin, we will see. I mean, you will see huge effects from insulin. If you make it to insulin like you are going to notice a significant change in your agency, because you're going to be covering what your body can't cover for the Basal side for that long acting insulin and you're going to be yes hitting your meals with a mealtime insulin, you're going to see a significant change on insulin.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 19:57
Insulin is like immediate efficacy. You You are, it's going to work. Here we are, right? I mean here. And, again, I should backtrack and say if your blood sugars have also been significantly high, you may see impact, but it's not like it's going to be so dramatic that you're going from a blood sugar of 300 down to 50. Right? You may have to increase dose slowly, which is actually much more optimal. You don't want major shifts down. If you've been stable at really high blood sugars for a while. You don't want to all of a sudden be sitting at 80. That's, that's not good for your body. So this slow titration even of insulin, yes, you're going to see impact of it. But it may not be as quick as Gosh, I'm floating at Target now.

Scott Benner 20:44
Yeah. Okay. All right, Jay, let's spend the rest of this time talking about Hilah monsters.

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you're ready? Do you know why I said that?

Jennifer Smith, CDE 22:44
I know why you said it. You tell me since All right. Sounds like sounds like you know you studied

Scott Benner 22:50
so there's a Canadian researcher who studied Hila monsters? Is it it's Gila monster healing doesn't matter big lizard right? And I think that I think the story goes that initially he noticed that they don't eat very much and then started to try to figure out why and found GLP one in the in their saliva. Is that right? Am I getting this right okay. And that was a while ago by the way like I know a long time Yeah, yeah, I know we we get wrapped up in like, you know what's going on in social media and you know, famous people are using GLP ones lose weight. No, we can't, you know, whatever. All that that's all just noise. This has been going on for quite some time. I can remember. It's got to be 15 years ago, a doctor tried to give my wife Victoza for weight loss. And it made her very it didn't didn't it didn't work well. Well with her. Yeah. But since then, others have come along so let's see if I can get these GLP ones ozempic trulicity Victoza by EDAA Where's more? I don't know there's one that starts with an A. I'll find it hold on.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 24:18
Those are I would say that those are

Scott Benner 24:21
the Go ahead. Well, they're all GLP ones though. Right? Like with semaglutide Some of them are so GLP ones are some already Jenny you gotta help me here. GLP ones are semaglutide Is that correct?

Jennifer Smith, CDE 24:35
GLP one you tell me you're listening.

Scott Benner 24:39
I don't know if I trust the list because Victoza for an example is often listed as GLP one but isn't it have a different main component?

Jennifer Smith, CDE 24:49
So Victoza and by Edo were the oldest Okay, right. By Yetta was, if I remember correctly, the first on the market in the very early two To 1000s, and it was dosed twice a day. Right? And then everybody was like, oh, but what if we could just take this once a day and they're there came to be Victoza, which was once a day, and then things like trulicity Trulicity is once a week, similar to ozempic, which is once a week, and which just increases the potential. I mean, and you're right semaglutide or however you were saying it whatever is GLP one,

Scott Benner 25:32
so it's a magnetite. I hear some people say semaglutide I don't think that's correct at all.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 25:37
It might I say some magnetite it might be semaglutide. i There are so many ways to say these, these names of things that as long as you know that category and what it's supposed to be doing in your body. Great. So

Scott Benner 25:51
I pointed out that Victoza is liraglutide. So it's not exactly the newer drugs, and I think it is good.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 26:00
It's all formulation. Yeah. Okay. Right. I mean, it's kind of its formulation, I think that's the easiest way. I mean, they have in terms of action, their action profiles are all similar enough. But some are taken, like I said more on a daily basis. And some are taken more on a long term, sort of basis, which I think for some people makes it a lot easier that they don't have to remember something every single day. But in general, these GLP ones, their action profile is to really increase insulin secretion. And to help, again, kind of like Metformin, decrease glucose release, sort of from the liver, specifically in the after meal time period. Yeah. And then they also help to delay sort of stomach emptying and like the glucose kind of break down and whatnot, which helps to increase satiety, which is a huge reason that GLP ones are beneficial for weight loss.

Scott Benner 27:06
So if so, for me, if this was me going into a doctor's office, and I saw I was like, Look, I I have prediabetes or I have you know, I have type two, I'd be pointing to, I'd like to try it was epic, or I'd like to try Manjaro. That's where I would be focused based on what my research is telling me. Do you see a reason why others would be?

Jennifer Smith, CDE 27:29
I've actually, and again, I've been out of specific, we've got a number of type twos, but I've been out of the type twos specific, like prescriptive component for a while, by Yetta. And Victoza were very, very big when I was working more heavily with the type two population. But we didn't have things like trulicity or ozempic, or any of those meds to choose from. Yeah, I think now, the benefit of something like ozempic, especially is that they have clearance for some of those other risk factors that we're trying to decrease, right, especially cardiovascular benefit. So if you're looking for the most bang, let's say, in a medication, and you're potentially high risk for heart disease, or you've heard already had some type of cardiovascular event happen, or you have a strong family history of then you're looking more towards these newer GLP one because of what they've proven in some studies.

Scott Benner 28:39
Now Manjaro Manjaro is a GLP one and also a G I P. In that drug. This is what my, my my thinking and my reading has told me. So apparently a GI p is a gastric inhibitory polypeptide. Jenny's just impressed, I said polypeptide correctly. She was looking at me, she goes, watch him mess this up. And I got it. So they are like their studies. Basically the Manjaro people, I don't know who makes it as it Lily. Is it? I don't know. Let's figure it out. I guess I'll scroll. Lilly Lilly makes Manjaro they're saying that people on average on Manjaro are losing like over 20% of their body weight. Is that right? I

Jennifer Smith, CDE 29:29
think I think the one study I read said like 23% Yeah, that's crazy. It was an enormous amount of weight. Absolutely. Yes.

Scott Benner 29:39
And it's not in an insane amount of time either. Six it is not it's under a year, you know. And so but then ozempic I don't know what their their studies say. But it's something more like is it like 16 or

Jennifer Smith, CDE 29:54
it's less than that? But it's it's substantial. Again, when we're comparing it to something that's The older, like even the bio data and the Victoza and definitely much more beneficial than Metformin in weight loss. It's in the it's in the teens area in terms of percent loss.

Scott Benner 30:13
I have here, New England Journal of Medicine semaglutide group, approximately 70% of participants achieved a weight loss of at least 10%. And approximately when we get the rest of it, and approximately 50% of the people are that go. achieved a weight loss of at least 15%. Furthermore, 1/3 1/3 of participants treated with semaglutide lost at least 20% of their baseline weight. Wow.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 30:41
Which is it's huge, you know, if that is, if that one has been a struggle for a really, really long time for you, and now you kind of are slapped with another now you have type two diabetes as well, right? God, I've already been working on this, and I'm not getting anywhere. And now you tell me I have this to work on as well. It's like, how much more can you load on right? And while lifestyle change is the four front of what we would try to encourage, sometimes people have already done some things, lifestyle wise, and it's helped, but it hasn't helped to the degree of 20%.

Scott Benner 31:24
Right? It goes on to say that these are results that approach those of like three years after bariatric surgery. So you know, people getting their stomach stapled, or whatever they call it. And it's three years later to lose 20%. I'm talking about like, click, click, live my life, I'm losing weight. And I we've touched on this before I and I'm going to do it again. i If I could close my eyes and imagine a world we'd all be out jogging after work and eating a half a piece of chicken with a little bit of broccoli on it and go, Oh, I'll take some sparkling water. That's not happening. So like, as long as that's not happening as long as people are are, in some situation stuck eating processed foods that are just beating the hell out of their bodies, right? Yeah, yeah. We all shouldn't just go okay, well, I guess I'm, I guess I'll die. You know, like, this is, this is crazy how well this works. And it is because it got into the weight loss market. It's got a light shined on it now, because I've been hearing people tell me around diabetes for years whispering in my ear, maybe GLP ones, maybe a GLP. One for type ones, like and it doesn't catch any traction. But I'll tell you what, a couple of people lose 50 pounds on tick tock, and everybody goes, Hey, what the hell? What's happened to her?

Jennifer Smith, CDE 32:47
And how did they do it? And gosh, they didn't have to just sit and eat green beans.

Scott Benner 32:52
Right? Because I work because because they make me choke because my parents. It doesn't matter. Like for whatever reason, like I keep trying to make this point. I don't think you should be embarrassed if you have type two diabetes. I don't think no embarrassed if you're something's going on. I don't believe that a large amount of people are just sitting at home with their hand and one bag of Doritos in their hand and something else and going I don't care if I die. Like I just don't think that's true. Is it true for somebody? Yeah, maybe. But also that person deserves a life too. And I'm not saying you should use the drug and then just eat poorly. I'm totally not saying that. But I'm saying that if this helps, then why not? And my point is, why did it jump into the weight loss category. So for example, right now, Manjaro is only available for type two diabetes, but there's no doubt in my mind that they are very busy right now making, you know, something, something that's going to be for weight loss because those Empik is for diabetes, type two, and they made we go V. Now, you'll hear people say ozempic And we go V are exactly the same thing. They they are right, like at the molecule they are it's just the dose, it's just the dose that they change. So there's a different dosing for diabetes than there is for weight loss. Now what they're learning and what they're seeing is the satiation that you're talking about, like just not being hungry. If you go into any weight loss Facebook group or pay attention online, we go over users as an example are like I am not hungry, like I'm reminding myself to eat right? Yeah. And as a matter of fact, their doctors are telling them when you start taking this, you have to keep eating. Correct. And that might not be easy to do. I talking to somebody personally right now, who describes they're using weego V for weight loss, but this person is prediabetes as well, right? So sure. And And they talk about their entire life. While they're making breakfast. They're thinking about what they're going to eat for lunch. Like, like, and it's not like a softness, this isn't a weak person, you know, seemingly, she's just their mind just, they're always hungry, shall have hunger in a way that you can not like, I don't understand when it's described to me. Like, like, What do you mean? Like we just ate? Or did they? Or they'll make three things at a meal, like, any of those things would be a full meal. And they're like, Well, I'm at this with this and this. And as soon as I get that, Enos, I'm going to be hungry again. I don't care if we found a way to say that's a disease or not, that's a disease. You know, like, if your brains not shutting off, you're that correct? Yeah.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 35:46
And I think in today's I mean, I, it begs to actually, it's a rabbit hole. But honestly, we've lost a lot of connection with our brain, to our stomach and what our body actually needs. And when it needs it. We have we've lost a lot of that because we are bombarded with food on a day to day basis, not only with the commercials, but also with social interactions. Yep. Everywhere we go. Availability, something social. includes food, you can't go to a board meeting that doesn't include some type of probably pastry, along with coffee or tea, right? You can't go to meet a friend at a park and just sit. It's let's go grab something to eat and talk over the food. Right? So I

Scott Benner 36:41
I've never drank coffee in my entire life, right? Cold coffee, calories. Oh my

Jennifer Smith, CDE 36:49
goodness, if you're truly just getting a plain old Cold coffee, nothing in it. It's like hot coffee that you've just cooled down. Okay? It's not caloric, right? Our, our cold coffee culture today? Well, that was a lot of C's. Sorry, see, I have little I have little children. But it is it's it's an entire, you don't just get coffee, you get some type of sweet something in it. And you get Frappuccino wised or you get you know, something to it. That makes it not taste like coffee. But it's a sweet treat.

Scott Benner 37:30
And all of a sudden, it's 300 calories in a glass. Absolutely. Yeah. And that's just, I'm saying, imagine a world where you were you've just got caught in this cycle. Like you said, like you we've been eating like this for years. If you go back to the 50s and the 60s and the 70s. There's scarcity of food, right? And people eat your plate, like because we you know, but they were still just eating. I don't know, some potatoes and beef and beans. It wasn't like but they

Jennifer Smith, CDE 37:58
were eating regular meals at fairly regular times. Now. Life has also gotten very busy, very different in today, comparative to the 50s. Right, right. And the structure of our day has changed very dramatically. We don't have a typical breakfast together, a lunch and a dinner time everybody is home. And you know, somebody's reading the paper at the dinner table. That's that's, I mean, now it's I was just talking to somebody at my kids taekwondo last night, and she's like, sometimes I'm shoving peanut butter and jelly in their mouth and being like, we have to be there in five minutes. And that's what they get for dinner is peanut butter and jelly. And I'm thinking to myself, I understand. But I have so much I could say to you about this, but you're not asking so I'm not going to elaborate.

Scott Benner 38:44
Exactly. So but if people's lives are in I mean, look the us up. I remember, I was 12 years old. And my grandmother and I were driving down the street in the town. She lived in her whole life. And she pointed I swear to you, she pointed at a corner where there was construction. And she said they're putting a 711 there. That's the end of this town. That's what she's holding. And I'll be damned that old lady was right. Because now, Wawa 711, any kind of convenience store that you can think of along the way. They're not one in a town. They're at every corner. And so you just think oh, I'll stop and get and then money's more people have money in their pockets in a way that they didn't before. You know, and it's just it's a terrible cycle. So my point is, I think our brains to your point have been they've been I don't know what the word is. But now you're hungry constantly and you have access to food constantly and is generally speaking not good food

Jennifer Smith, CDE 39:43
and it's an it's a miss I think there's a disconnect between what is hunger feel like and oh, I could grab something quick because I'm not like your brain is thinking further. I'm not quite sure when I'm gonna get to some thing else. So I might as well grab something now because hey, that you know, little place to grab up, you know, a coffee and whatever is here, or this little place to grab a sandwich from is here. And it's not truly remembering to connect with your hunger level. It's a, it's almost just a brain notification of grab it. It's here,

Scott Benner 40:20
I had a situation recently where I knew 45 minutes from now, there was going to be food, but I was hungry. And I almost ate to not be hungry. But I still would have eaten 45 minutes later, because I was gonna be there and I just I stopped myself as like, that's insane. Just be hungry for 45 minutes and then eat. But I don't have that. I don't have that push the way some other people do. Correct. And then the other side of it is the so GLP ones, they're going to tell you the side effects may be nausea, vomiting, or diarrhea. Those are the three that they post when they're telling you, right? Correct. The nausea, I don't understand. But the vomiting is from trying to eat food that your body can no longer kind of process, right because it slows gastric emptying. It's

Jennifer Smith, CDE 41:10
correct. In fact, there are you know, if you are utilizing insulin along with some of these medications, it's really important to pay attention to, to the what the meds can do in terms of satiety. Very important because if you are someone who is using insulin and dosing for the food that you're eating, or you have what we call as a set dose, based on meal time, you know, you always take five units of insulin with your lunchtime, and then you eat your lunch while starting on these meds now, you may not be hungry enough for that five units. Yeah, right. So there's, there's some caution to be put into the mix here. Along with use of these because they do impact your desire for food.

Scott Benner 42:01
Right? So there's a desire, the lose the desire, which is good news, if you're if you're eating too much, but you're going to have to remind yourself to eat but eat the right things within reason. If you know, do people vomit on it? It's not from what I can tell it's not something that happens constantly. But it could be that if you're eating fatty, or foods or greasy stuff that you might have a bad reaction with it.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 42:26
It could be that and honestly, it's more the digestive like, I haven't heard as much complaint about the vomiting piece. It's much more Justice background like queasiness on starting the Med and getting used to it. And then a fullness factor that I think a lot of people may not, again, with that brain not really connecting that way. It may be a fullness that their body's not used to feeling. So it may be uncomfortable. Yeah. So

Scott Benner 43:03
to wrap back around GLP ones if I have pre diabetes, if I have type two diabetes, if I maybe just have weight to lose them in the I think right now for I think right now for insurance reasons, you have to be technically obese to get like we go V.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 43:21
There are BMI standards that they have to essentially follow in terms of prescription. Not that they can't prescribe. But in terms of coverage. For that medication. You have to meet a certain BMI. Yes,

Scott Benner 43:36
yeah. Okay. But again, I think doctors who are looking out for your health and can think outside of the box can find a way to get you these things. But these GLP ones, I'm gonna tell you right now, I'm pushing someone very close to me pretty hard. Who has type two diabetes? To start it? Yeah, I mean, just try to imagine the that you have type two, and you have weight, that's x in excess of what you should be carrying. And that a year from now, you could lose 1015 22% of your body weight and be helped supporting the insulin production. And what's it doing the liver again, it clears something with glucagon. And it helps to decrease

Jennifer Smith, CDE 44:19
your glucose outlet right from your liver. And so the benefit of that, obviously, is, I mean, your liver and your pancreas. They're what these wonderful organs that are supposed to work together really well. Right? They're supposed to. But when you've got too much being released and your body isn't responding the right way and or your body's not making insulin in the right way. You don't need this assistive piece. That's supposed to be this beautiful, like management strategy that your body would naturally do and it's not happening.

Scott Benner 44:56
Not only that, but you know you hear about a lot now that you just never heard about before. fatty liver disease. But like, right, so if there's a non alcoholic, fatty liver disease and an alcoholic fatty liver, I'm talking about non alcoholic fatty liver disease that stops your liver from working the way it should. And these medications are seemed to be helping with that as well. So there's a lot of good here that comes from this. And

Jennifer Smith, CDE 45:23
there are Yeah, there are an enormous I mean, I think, I think, again, with standards of care being changed, as they have been, especially with the increase in these types of medications that are being shown to be more beneficial. It's, it's really talking, again, advocating for yourself, if you don't have a practitioner who has brought any of this up, and you're hearing this, and you're doing a little bit of your own research, and you're saying, Well, I don't know why nobody talked to me about this, right? I don't know why we're starting with this. It doesn't I've been doing the things that I've been told to do, along with the medication doesn't seem to be helping, why can't we consider this? Right? And that's when you might need to go to your doctor and bring it up. And maybe you can teach them a little bit of something, right?

Scott Benner 46:21
And for those of you who are gonna say like, well, GLP ones, they're brand new I, you know, I just heard they can't even make them fast enough, because the famous people are using them to lose weight discovery of GLP. One was first identified in the early 80s. So there you go. It's been, that's 43 years ago. Yeah.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 46:40
And what's interesting is that our zoo, we have a healer monster at our zoo, and they actually have the information about the saliva, and that there is now a medication that helps people with diabetes. They don't name the medication, but they just note that from the saliva was formed this medication, which I

Scott Benner 47:01
think is the gentleman's name is Drucker and inductee into the Canadian Medical Hall of Fame and winner of the Canadian gardener international award is most well known for his contributions to the discovery of glucagon like peptide GLP, one and GLB to gut hormones that help control insulin and balanced blood sugars. That's, I mean, it just it makes sense. Like, it really, really makes sense. You know, we have a couple of minutes left. Before we started recording, you told me you have you have type one clients who are using GLP ones.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 47:35
I have, I have one client who had tried trulicity, I have another one, who has had very good success with ozempic.

Scott Benner 47:47
Yeah, so and a reduction in insulin use significant 25% a day

Jennifer Smith, CDE 47:53
a reduction in insulin use, I have to go back to their specific charts to see how much we reduced by but it's it's a fair amount, I mean, the person using ozempic, now for several weeks has come down in insulin use by about 10 units overall, and has lost weight as well, which is very significant. And beneficial. Obviously, when you are an insulin user, we have this, we have this management that we have to do in order to make sure we're using the amount of insulin that keeps our blood sugar in the right place, but that we're not getting an overage that then insulin is a storage hormone that allows our body to store more than we actually are using up. So it's it's a fine balance. And I mean, you know, in terms of these other GLP ones, I think the newer ones, again, are more the way to honestly go especially as I mentioned briefly before with the benefit towards cardiovascular benefit and whatnot. We really want to look at that in type two diabetes because again, many people who are diagnosed with type two have actually had mismanaged blood sugars for a number of years before they're formally diagnosed.

Scott Benner 49:11
And here, Mayo Clinic along with helping to control blood sugar and boost weight loss, GLP ones and SGL two, two inhibitors seem to have other major benefits. Researchers found that some drugs in these groups may lower the risk of heart disease, such as heart failure, stroke, and kidney disease. Kidney Yep, kidney disease. Yeah. So you have your damage being done that you're not aware of type two, because you're slow to be diagnosed. And this isn't going to reverse these problems. Right? But it will,

Jennifer Smith, CDE 49:45
it's not going to reverse them. But in a side note there again, our body is it's a self healing machine. Your body does as much as they possibly can to get over all the damage that you're putting into it or on it right At some point, it can only do so much. So while these meds aren't necessarily healing, what they are doing is with navigating your glucose levels, getting your weight more under control, maybe now you can actually feel good enough to start moving more. That's going to be preventative. And then it allows your body to do some of the self healing that it can. Yeah,

Scott Benner 50:23
if two things are the one, you just said something that really kind of lit me up. Like, I don't think people know how much they're being held down by their health issues. Like I think they get accustomed to feeling tired or weak or whatever. And you just think this is life. And if you can lift that veil, a little, almost like an antidepressant, if you can lift that veil, little you might be able to see up, you know, you might Yeah, and the other thing you talked about about it doesn't, it's not a cure. But you know, think of it this way, if you stand next to the wall and bang your head on the wall, right, and your heads gonna get sore. If you stop banging your head on the wall, your head will stop being sore, it'll end it will go back to the way it used to be tried to think of the sugar as the wall. And instead of it your head, it's your heart or your kidneys or something and you just keep abusing it, it can't rebound. So you gotta give it a shot to rebound. Jenny,

Jennifer Smith, CDE 51:15
that was that's funny that that was actually a really like was a common joke in our house, my dad, we'd go to him with like a complaint like My knee hurts. Well, when does it hurt? Well, when I do this, my dad be like, Well, don't do that anymore. Like it was just it was a joke. Right? But you brought up the exact the exact? Absolutely, yeah,

Scott Benner 51:34
I mean, listen, you said earlier about somebody sticking peanut butter sandwiches in their kid to run off to a thing to run off to a sport, right? Like think about like, when you're four and five, and you're playing soccer or baseball or doing some peewee thing, everyone's reasonably athletic, like they're not all stars, but they can go out and run around and get exercise. And then what happened and

Jennifer Smith, CDE 51:55
their metabolism is much higher than you as an adult, right?

Scott Benner 51:59
And then But then you sit in school for 12 years. And then some of you sit in college for four or 567 years. And all of a sudden you're like, Oh, I gained 20 pounds, I gained 15 pounds. I did this, you know, like your your life changes. So you're eating more like, you know, at the corner kinds of foods. And then you say, Oh, God, I'm 40 pounds heavier than I was in college. I tried and nothing happened.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 52:22
Right? Yeah. Right. I know. And that's like, your head against the wall. It's this it is. And I think in today's society, the I'm not, I don't love medication. Like I try really hard to avoid medicine, I don't have to use like, if I can do something about it, to fix it. I will write even for a headache, like I drink the water. I take a meditate for a little bit. Whatever I try hard. But I think in today's world, some of these meds are they're the best that we can honestly do in order to get around some of the things that you're trying to work on. But you're never gonna get 100% benefit.

Scott Benner 53:10
Yeah. Oh, Jenny froze. This has never happened before. Jenny, you froze for a second? Oh, never gonna get 100%. I did.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 53:18
Oh, that was the first Oh, yeah, you're never gonna get 100% benefit, as you just said, so many things have changed since a kid was being very active. And now as an adult, they look at and they're like, gosh, I used to do all these things. And now I'm 40 4050 pounds heavier. And I'm slow. And I, you know, I can't run the bases around the T ball field with my kid anymore, because I just so that's where these meds, especially from a lot of the protective features that they're proving and research coming along with them. There is a benefit to using them just just remember

Scott Benner 53:53
that hundreds and hundreds of years ago, one of the signs of wealth was being heavy, because it meant you could afford food. And that sort of mindset has just moved in the wrong direction over hundreds of generations. It just has. And I'm sitting here imagining I'm imagining everybody in the world who who can who could and should for health reasons be 3040 50 pounds lighter, right? 2030 4050 pounds lighter, and it's not happening. Like imagine if the whole world used the GLP, one for a year. And we woke up a year from now and everyone in that situations weighed was 15 or 20%. Lower, the world would change and everyone's mind would be rewired. And you wouldn't be like oh I'm going to stop at Wawa and get a pretzel. You'd be like I'm gonna go home and eat my dinner and it right it's just I'm with you on the mat. I wish like I'm sitting here wishing that this wasn't necessary but I yeah situation we're in.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 54:55
It is and I think if we look at it even deeper level Will, Will medications like this if they're used not only for type two, but some of them are being found in terms of just weight loss avenues, right. So if that's the case, we know the stress on our healthcare system already, with a lot of the conditions that we have, that are utilizing a lot of medications that aren't having positive side effects, right. So if meds like this are being brought in and utilize to the extent that it's decreasing, some of the issues, people are coming in with cardiovascular, kidney, whatever, then, at some point, I would like to be able to see that we've decreased the impact on our healthcare system.

Scott Benner 55:49
And there's no reason that things couldn't switch back in a generation or two as well. Like, if every adult right now whose mind is wired to like, stop and grab food and eat this, before I eat that and all that other stuff. If we all rewired our minds, then our kids would grow up in a different situation and a generation from now you could be going in a completely different direction. So here's what I'm gonna say. If you have type two diabetes, or prediabetes, go to a doctor and say I want to use epic or Manjaro. They're not advertisers of the show. As a matter of fact, I don't know insulin, or drug manufacturers ever tried to advertise on the show? I'm not even kidding. Anybody here, right? I'm saying I'm saying this is a fairly simple thing to do. That has a good chance of leading to a benefit for you. I think it's worth a shot.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 56:37
I think the only caveat to it and is very visible, and your doctor may bring it up as well is coverage, right? That it coverage may be a limiting factor, depending on what your in insurance carrier is, or you know, who you're going through for your medical care. So that is it, we talk about all of the highlights and the things and Hey, go and ask about this. It is a certain consideration that you have to make sure that you have coverage because these meds out of pocket are expensive. Yeah,

Scott Benner 57:09
I'm even wondering big picture for the world, if people who have decent coverage that will cover it or can afford it in cash, which I know it sucks extensively expensive and cash like $1,000. But like if your insurance covers it, and it's 25 $50 a month for you or something like that, maybe just the people who can afford it using it, and then the benefit becoming obvious. Maybe then that moves the insurance coverage along and the medical community along and people that are in a position to push and say, Look, we have to cover these things for people look what it's doing. Right?

Jennifer Smith, CDE 57:43
Absolutely. I mean, if they're not having to end result pay for all of these major procedures and things that are very, I mean, I've ever looked at the cost of like a heart procedure not covered. They're enormous. Just I can't even imagine paying for that out of pocket, but add some end result being that somebody now doesn't have to have that done on our whole insurance sort of industry. It's a rock that once it gets rolling the right way, hopefully it does gather the right kind of grasp.

Scott Benner 58:17
They'll just make money on something else is like, hey, we'll do this instead. And it'll actually help you. I honestly think that what people are complaining about now about all the like social media, people using it and everything, I think that's gonna end up being a good thing. You know, I get that it pisses people off, because they're like, oh, there was a shortage of the drug. And there are people who have diabetes that can't get it now. And I mean, I don't know how true that is that that's actually happening, or if it's just a news story. But what I think is that it normalizes it. And I think that's the one thing around weight that we really lack is somebody being willing to stand up in front of a camera and go, Hey, look at me, I weighed 300 pounds, and I'm gonna stick this on my side. And I'm going to come back every week and show you again and watch that person. You know, shrink down is it's

Jennifer Smith, CDE 59:01
sure. I mean, the you know, the one show that I can't remember what is it the biggest loser right? I don't even know if that's still on anymore. But that was kind of what what this is it was a weight loss, lifestyle weight loss, that really did have major turnaround impact. It did. But they had coaches, they were like, stuck in this place with like, you will exercise this much you will eat all this food, you will make these changes, like, you know, people don't have that in their own home, though.

Scott Benner 59:36
Many of those people reverted when they got away from that that situation too, which is hard to keep up with, right? Because there's no that somebody's yelling at you every 20 seconds do this, do that and you're like, Um, how about I just go to work instead? You know, but but it was I thought that show was a great example of like, wow, you could actually extra small size yourself out of like significant.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 59:54
Absolutely. You can but you can also see the work that it takes and when Again, busy life's life that we have now, you can see the work that that takes and what you would have to do with the other things in your life to get it going the right way.

Scott Benner 1:00:12
Well, and I want to say to for weight loss, there's no one saying that you just stick this drug in and you don't do anything like you still need correct, move and do all the things that you're supposed to do, but you're gonna get an incredible boost from it. And I think the last thing that I want to say is, like I just talked about, like watching like weight loss people like be influencers online, I'd love to see somebody with type two, like, forget the shrinking of your body. Like I'd love to see someone with type to stand up with a camera go, Look, I'm going to inject this and watch my a one C go down, watch my variability, get tighter, like watch my health improve over and over again. I think that would be really, really

Jennifer Smith, CDE 1:00:48
would be. Yeah, absolutely. I I agree.

Scott Benner 1:00:51
Absolutely. Johnny, thank you. We've done

Jennifer Smith, CDE 1:00:55
I know we've and we've only really touched like the tip of the mountain of like, you know, there's so many other medications. So I don't know if we'll want to do anything brief later at some point about the other meds because there are other medications and I know that they are still being used. And I think some minimal explanation might be helpful,

Scott Benner 1:01:15
run through them, and we'll go back and hit them again. But tell people what we're going to hit when we do it again.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 1:01:19
Yeah, I mean, we didn't really hit on like the DPP fours. I mean, we commented, but there are the DPP four inhibitors. Let's see the SDLT twos, we didn't really get into talking about them. We did mention them, right. And there's a host of oral combination meds that are often in combination with metformin. I, they work all different kinds of ways. But honestly, the main categories are the DPP, fours, the stLt twos, we've also got some that are, I think, less use. Now, the TZ D is some that I haven't seen used in a really long time. They're called Alpha glucan. Alpha glucosidase inhibitors, if they're like starch blockers, essentially.

Scott Benner 1:02:06
Are these things gonna go by the wayside though, as the these GLP ones become more prevalent? Do you think? Maybe, no,

Jennifer Smith, CDE 1:02:15
maybe? I mean, honestly, in terms of in terms of use, they are still out there. How much use they're getting along with these newer meds? I don't, I don't know. I'd have to look honestly and do some research to be able to tell how much these newer ones are really taking

Scott Benner 1:02:34
over? Yeah. Well, listen, Jenny. I've never seen anyone and Tiktok say, Hey, I took a DPP four and look at me now. Well, that's an indication but you know,

Jennifer Smith, CDE 1:02:46
no, and there they are. I mean, the DPP fours are usually used in some type of combination with other things, too. So they're not just taken alone. But I think definitely, at least the DPP fours in the stLt twos would be good to chat about Yeah, okay. I

Scott Benner 1:03:05
just want to point out that he'll monsters are very dangerous and don't try to kiss wanting to get their saliva. That's all Yes.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 1:03:09
Don't don't have one as a pet, although I'm sure people do have.

Scott Benner 1:03:13
I saw one eat a goat. While I was looking this up online. I was like, oh my god, so just please, I don't know. Yeah, stay away.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 1:03:23
Leave the lizards in the desert. All right, Jamie. Okay, bye.

Scott Benner 1:03:33
Thank you so much for listening today. thank Jenny. Jenny can be reached at integrated diabetes.com. She does great work for people living with diabetes. Check her out. And thanks to Dexcom for sponsoring this episode of The Juicebox Podcast dexcom.com forward slash juice box, check out the G six the g7 Find out if you're eligible for a free 30 day trial of the G six all on my link dexcom.com Ford slash juice box when you click on the links. You're supporting the show. Alright, thanks so much for listening. I really hope you're enjoying the Type Two diabetes Pro Tip series. If you are, please share it with someone who you think might also benefit or enjoy it. I'll be back very soon with another episode of The Juicebox Podcast.

#884 Talking Online

Scott talks too much about the Internet and Erika is delightful.

+ Click for EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Scott Benner 0:00
Hello friends, welcome to episode 884 of the Juicebox Podcast

Erica Forsythe is back today and she's gonna say talking with me, but this conversation took a turn somewhere and I got very passionate, so I'm not sure how much Erica spoke. Anyway, we're talking about how people speak to each other online and some other online eccentricities. Like complaining about seeing other people wearing CGM or using GLP ones and stuff like that. Anyway, it's a spirited conversation. I invite you to listen. While you're listening. Please remember that nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise, always consult a physician before making any changes to your health care plan. We're becoming bold with insulin. If you have type one, or the caregiver of type one and a US resident, well, then I need you to go to T one D exchange.org. Forward slash juicebox and complete the survey. That's it t one D exchange.org. Forward slash juicebox. complete the survey. It helps people living with type one, it'll help you it'll help me.

This show is sponsored today by the glucagon that my daughter carries. G voc hypo Penn Find out more at G voc glucagon.com. Forward slash juicebox. today's podcast is also brought to you by touched by type one now this is a fantastic organization helping people with type one diabetes, it's an org. And they just want you to check out what they're doing. Hit him up on Facebook, Instagram, and of course, at touched by type one.org. I'll be speaking at one of their huge events later this year. Go check it out touched by type one.org. The podcast is also sponsored today by Omni pod. Now Omni pod makes the Omni pod dash and the Omni pod five. So there is a tubeless insulin pump for whatever you desire. The dash puts you in charge, it's completely manual, you make the decisions. But that only pod five, its automated runs off an algorithm with the Dexcom G six. It's going to make a lot of the decisions for you. Check them out Get started today at Omni pod.com forward slash juicebox. There are links to all of the sponsors in the shownotes have the audio player you're listening in right now. And at juicebox podcast.com. But you can always just type them into a browser. Hey, ARCA. How are you?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 2:53
I'm doing well. Thanks. Good to see you. Good to be here.

Scott Benner 2:57
I am. I think we'll jump right in because you're on the schedule for today. But we just decided last night what to talk about. I think we're going to kind of commingle two ideas together. I think I don't know where to start. Which Which of the two things do you think we start with?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 3:15
Let's start with on you know how to communicate. online. Online. Okay. Yes. All right. effectively and appropriately and compassionately communicate?

Scott Benner 3:31
Yes. I have no training about how to talk to people. I, all I have is that back when blogs weren't a thing, I had a blog. So I was learning to communicate with people I couldn't see. And you can say it's Oh, it's not. It's not that deep. But it kind of is like you have to learn how to talk to people in a way that they can receive it. Right? Like so no matter what you're saying. You're not You're not sugarcoating it, and you're not holding back. But you're saying it in a way that doesn't just light them on fire before you present them with the topic, right. And I'm sure as we're talking, we're going to come up with a lot of examples of that. But I learned how to do that the blog was pretty darn popular. So I'm people must have accepted my writing pretty well. When I went to the podcast, it's the same thing. Like you're I'm talking to a wall most of the time, or I'm talking to a person I don't even see. And you're developing a conversation that people can hear from the outside and not brusque, up against not be like, oh, you know, right. You know, I'm upset by this part of what you said or that part of what you said that's on purpose for me. Like real Scott in real life. Isn't this nice? I don't mean to other people, mainly to my family. I mean, but like, but I don't because I don't think about when I'm interacting in my purse. My life, I don't think about, oh, I want to make sure this is accessible to everybody. I'm more about, like, let me get out my thoughts and my feelings and how this impacts me and that kind of stuff. Anyway, it wasn't really until I launched the Facebook group that I really started seeing it. Some people don't know how to talk. They just don't know how to get their point across without making somebody angry. And there's a difference between doing it on purpose. Like some people run into a thread, and they're like, hey, and then they run out because they want to see the they want to see the fight, right. But that's not often what happens. Often what happens is people just see the world from a very like, me centric perspective. And I don't know if they put much thought into, how is this going to resonate with the person who's hearing it? And then it starts weird fights, that it's interesting where they go. So I want to start with how to talk to people. And there's probably nobody better to ask than you like, how how, and I'm sure this what we're going to talk about is going to be beyond the internet and work in people's real lives as well.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 6:15
Yeah, so I think, you know, in grad school, we learn a lot about communication in marriage and family therapy. And oftentimes when people land in my office is around communication. And one of the things that we learn is this image of there's a sender, as when you're communicating with someone, there's the sender, and then there's the receiver of information. And so envisioning yourself, if you are the sender, you are communicating like as if in a letter and you you've written your message, you're sending it in a letter, and you're not always sure how the receiver is going to receive that message. Is, is the receiver of your letter, so to speak. Has anybody had a horrible day? Have they had an incredible morning? Did they have sleep? Have they eaten, right? So you're delivering a message as a sender? Not knowing how it's going to land? And that is often what causes conflict? Yeah. In verbal and you know, in person verbal communication.

Scott Benner 7:18
And I think there's a way I think what some people hear, like, the more I don't know, I don't know what to say, there are gonna be some people that hear that and go, Oh, well, you're just, you're just saying what you don't mean. So it doesn't upset anybody. I'm not talking about that. I'm saying you can get your point across without everybody hating each other, and yelling and screaming and everything just coming up, like, like, octaves up. And I just think that that's I don't know why it's not a consideration. Like, why is it so important for me to say what I think that I don't care how you feel? That's a fascinating aspect of this to me. So I guess on some level, you have to be concerned with your audience, and how they're going to feel.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 8:10
Yes, and I agree, I'm not talking about the inauthentic with how you're feeling? Because that you can read through that. So yes, it is we are, we do want to encourage authentic, honest communication. But if you are not thinking about how your messaging is going to land, then it may never land. The point that you're trying to address. Or the point you're trying to make may never land. Well, if you're not thinking about the tone, the audience, how where are you in your emotional spin physical space? Are you tired, hungry, exhausted, stressed?

Scott Benner 8:49
Oh, you have no idea how many people I see start a post, and they're ranting and raving. But there'll be like, you know, at the end of like, I'm sorry, I had a bad day. I'm like, Well, then why are you doing this? Like what is like, if you need to get it out, go scream into a pillow? Why are you screaming on the internet? Like, like, just so they even know, Erica, they know they're like, I already know that my perspective is skewed because I've had a bad day. So I'm just still going to come in here and shut on the floor and light it on fire and watch all of you tried to deal with it. Because Because because that's what happens. That is there are some that everybody's personalities come out. Right. There are people who want to pick apart your point. Take the opposite side, play devil's advocate, there are people who get mad and just launch back with anger. There are some people who are and I'm assuming their parent, their parents were alcoholics. They want very badly to stop the fight. Right, like and so there's like all of that. And all these voices come together. And it's fascinating to watch none of them understand where the other came from. And, and, and it's fascinating to watch each one of them not care how it lands because it goes on both ways. You can see if you step back If you can see what people mean, you just, it's not what they said. And that's interesting, you know, and then when you try to reframe it can sound what's the word I want? You have to be able to try to reframe without insulting them, or making them think that you're going Oh, okay. But have you thought of it this way? Like, that's not the way to go? Obviously, this is going to be all over the place. I'm sorry. Yes. I've seen a lot of this.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 10:31
So Well, I think what one of the couple things that are lost in online and we're talking about maybe some of these longer threads right on in the Facebook community, or anywhere online, that's what's lost is you can't pick up the tone necessarily, although sometimes you can. You can't read the other person's facial expression, body language. And so you're, you're posting how you're feeling in the moment. And I think, just like what I would advise in person, if you're, you know, you're coming in hot and bothered and tired, all the things, step away, even right, write that post, write it down, don't click Post yet, take you know, walk away, take some deep breaths, go eat, go take a walk, and then come back and see, reread it. Yeah. And so is that really what I wanted to post

Scott Benner 11:20
because to your point earlier, if you're putting all this effort into saying something to someone, or writing something down, showing it to them, then you must want to get them to a level of your understanding, right, you're trying to impart how you see something. If you're, if you're gonna run it again, if you're gonna run to the room and light the whole thing on fire, no one's gonna take your point. And so if it's really important to you, then deliver it in a way that that will be actionable for them that they can actually stop and go, Oh, that's not a bad idea. You know, like, that does make sense. You can, you can deliver it that way. By the way, these things help you having 504 conversations with your kids schools, like these things help a lot, you know, they're not just for this kind of communication. It's it's every kind of human interaction, where you're just trying to get across how you feel. And I think that's why the fights happen. I think that when you try to say something, and someone else doesn't understand it, there's a level of frustration that comes up inside of you that's difficult to deal with, because you don't feel heard. And then depending on how you grew up, that might hit you really poorly. And then you kind of get lit up like a firecracker a little bit too like not being heard is is a trigger I don't use the word trigger not being heard as a trigger for for many people.

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Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 15:54
yes. In in, in, in person communication, you're able to do reflective listening and say, I think this is what you're saying? I'm let me let me double check. Or you know, are you saying are you saying it this way? You're saying it that way? And then you have an opportunity to to confirm or disagree? Yeah, right. And then on line, it's a little bit more challenging to communicate that way. But I do see people do that sometimes say, is this what you're trying to say? And that's such a beautiful way to say hey, I'm, I'm reading I hear you I see you is this what you're trying to say? And that can often interrupt, you know, intervene and interrupt the conflict and the spiraling of attacks that happen,

Scott Benner 16:36
though some of those are very good interviewing techniques to, like, my wife will joke she'll say, and I don't know how much she's joking. She'll be like, sometimes I walk past that room. And I think who's that lovely man interviewing that person who seems to be very understanding and want to know more? Because, because that's what I'm doing for an hour, when I'm talking to somebody a guy I'm trying to get how they feel. And when there are times where I'm motivated to tell them how I feel, or to offer up a parable. It's like, hey, well, what about this, you know, but in your regular life, it's difficult. And I, the longer I make this podcast, the better I get at being a real person away from this microphone, because you have to be interested in what the other person is saying. And it can't be judgmental. Like you can't be judging people while they're talking. Because when you do, all that's happening is you're coming up with argumentative responses to while they're talking. They say something like, well, that's wrong. I'll tell you, I know what's right here. I'm gonna say this, it's not a fight, you're not trying to win. You don't I mean, you're you think something, they think something, you all say it, nothing has to change. You know, like, and I think that's one of the one of the misconceptions is that every one of these interactions somehow needs to end with the other person changing their mind. And that's not how things work, you're offering up an idea, it'll get planted in their head as a seed and may or may not grow. And that's all you can do. Like, you know, you can't you can't run around changing people's minds, good information, give them give them your best information and see, you know, if they don't pick some of it up. Makes sense.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 18:16
Yes. And it will. And I think that, you know, we're we are passionate, particularly and you know, how we live our lives, the choices we make, how we choose to manage not only diabetes, but our our lifestyles. And if it's working for you, I enjoy it, I see and hear the passion in the comments, right? And you're wondering, this is how it's working for me, and I want you to be able to see it and feel it and live it this way, too. So I think oftentimes, the intent, and the motivation behind some of the stronger comments is because it's, you're passionate, and it's working for you. And you want other people to, you know, quote, see the light. But oftentimes, people aren't ready to hear that. And if you weren't recognizing that, maybe the tone is too strong. It's just gonna land flat. Yeah.

Scott Benner 19:04
And what you lack I'll tell you what, like banking podcast, all I'm doing is sharing how we're managing my daughter's diabetes, right? And I mean, it's gotten bigger than that, but at its core, that's what it is. I don't get I don't hear back from people. Like I say my thing and I go, Alright, listen, here's what I think. You don't need to think it. If you don't, I don't care. You know, like, but here's what I think. You can't do that in a in a face to face or screen to screen conversation because you say something, and then they fire back in. Everyone's always trying to be either you're in a good conversation where everybody's being like, light and supportive, and thoughtful, or you're in a crappy conversation where everyone's trying to win. Get a dig in. You know, be funny. That's the other thing. A lot of you are not as funny as you think you are like me, God bless you. I'm probably not as funny as I think I am but a lot of fun. A lot of you, and so like, but there's levels, there's levels of of that too, like, were that your humor doesn't land, or how hard it is to write sarcasm. You know, there's so many things, but I really do take your point about the passion. Because I think that's at the core of the of any low carb argument I've ever seen in my life is just people are like, I found this thing that really helps me trying to tell you about it. You're not listening, you're killing yourself, I know. And then somebody else will come in and say, Well, I found a way to manage with insulin perfectly fine. And my uncle and yours are exactly the same. And so you don't understand, you're telling me I'm wrong. Nobody wants to be told they're wrong. Nobody wants to be told that they're doing something wrong or thinking about something incorrectly. And there are only certain trusted voices that get away with pointing that stuff out. And for the most part, it's not a thing we can just willy nilly do between strangers or even sometimes? I don't know, even sometimes people you know, really well, I actually think that's harder. I always think about, you know, I grew up watching my son play baseball. And if your kids pitching, and they're struggling, you don't send the father out to talk to them on the mound, you send somebody else, somebody else who doesn't have a lot of history with them. And, you know, isn't quietly angry about something that happened a week and a half ago in the house and stuff like that. So anyway, I don't know. What do you think about all this?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 21:32
Well, I think that oftentimes, it might feel easier to express our, our passionate opinion, online. I mean, we talked to our children, our teenagers about, you know, being aware of online bullying and trolling. And I think one of the things that I constantly tell children is, you know, what, would you say this? Would you write this out? What you want to write online? Would you say that in person to that, that, that friend? Would you write that post? Would you write that comment if that person was standing right in front of you. And I think when we're in the heat of the moment, and we're on our phone, and we're wandering around, and we're reading the thread, and we're just want to put our two cents in. I think it's so easy to get caught up in the moment. But just to think, okay, these are a bunch of people I may have never met before. But if they were all standing in my living room, would I be say this, you know, saying when I say this in this way, and that's a hard thing to remember, in the moment, I totally understand.

Scott Benner 22:33
I just got back from a trip where I was gone for like, 11 days, this is like, the one time this year I didn't make the podcast for a week. And other people helped me with the Facebook group more than they usually do. And I wasn't looking at it as much. But I posted before I left, I was like, I'm leaving. I'm going away at my family hold all your crazy inside till I get back, please. Read. And time. In this is such an interesting thing to break down a person made a post, it was a meme about Plan B. And it you know, plan B the pill, like, you know, the the day after, oh, and for the life of me. I don't even know why it was funny. Like, but people told me it was I was like, alright, so I but when they put it up, it's easy to think, Oh, well, this is to stir up the pot, you know, but it wasn't that you really just thought this is funny. And here. And then it was diabetes related. Somehow I forget how. And I saw it go up. Because one of the moderators reported it so I could see it just so I could see it. And now I see it. I'm like, well, this isn't gonna go well. And my first thought is like, how does the poster not know that? How does the person who puts it up not know, at some point, this is going to go poorly, this is going to turn into an abortion conversation online, right? And then, but I always take the fact of like, let them be adult like they can. They're adults, let them do what they want, you know, as long as nobody's mean or blah, blah, blah. But man, it just went exactly like you thought, you know, four out of five people got the got the joke, and they were okay with it and weren't put off by it. And some people took it as an opportunity to say, oh, no, I have feelings about this. I'm going to share them with you now. And then other people come back in and share the opposite side. And then here we go. And the I think two things as the person who runs a large group, I think, how did you not know this was gonna happen? Because I don't think the person had that intention. And my other thing is, this group takes in 300 new members a week. Like, wow, okay, so 4050 people a day come in. I don't want them seeing you ranting and raving about Plan B on day one, because they're going to think that's what this is about. And the truth is, that's not not true at all like that one post is meaningless on a group that size That group gets 110 new posts a day on average. Wow. Okay. And so most people aren't even going to see the stupid posts. But the algorithm sees people going back and forth and says, aha, people care about this and start pushing it towards other people's posts. And now suddenly, in my mind, everyone who's been there knows Scott takes care of this stuff. This bush doesn't go on here. I'm not worried about it. But those new people might think, Oh, where am I? What? What asylum Am I in right now? You know, right? Because I don't think people understand no matter what side of an argument you're on. Yes. Sound crazy.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 25:42
And it just, it just feels like that meant that's probably not the place to have that type of conversation. Yeah. But I understand how and why it happens. And, and perhaps, you know, the person who posted it is a quick witted, funny person sarcastic, and thought this would be a funny, you know, response to your posts. And then here we go. But didn't pause to think about how is this going to land? And that's how it does happen. But obviously, not probably ill intent. It don't originally,

Scott Benner 26:11
I'm thinking back now on I think there was like candy, the plan B pill and something else. And the idea was, like, be prepared. And like so I think they thought like the candy like low blood sugars and like they the Okay, yeah. But still, you're just like, oh, dear Lord, like this is like, if you had to write what I thought was, if you had to run this page for a day, you would never do that. And not because I don't want the place to be fun or free, free minded. I absolutely, you should see this stuff i i Don't get involved in because I really do think people are adults, and they should do what they want. But like, I don't know, like, when you go back to a regular conversation, that big kind of blown up idea. It's the same thing when you're talking to your sister, and you're trying to get something across, it's not a good place to bring up something that happened 10 years ago, unless you're trying to be in an argument with your sister, right? And in that case, I say just be more honest, just look at her and go, I'm so mad at you for the thing that happened 10 years ago, let's talk because that might actually get you somewhere. I don't know. I don't understand why. You know, I keep hearing it broken down as people are, like, tribal or on teams. And I don't even think it's that. Like, I just think that people have a collection of thoughts. And they defend them, like very vociferously, like they defend their thoughts, because I think they think their thoughts are them. But your thoughts, like your ideas about? I don't know, politics, that's not really who you are. That's your thoughts about politics. And I think it gets commingled and then you feel like you're defending yourself all the sudden, you know,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 27:58
yes, and, and I hear people who respond there, when there's been other, you know, controversial topics that have come up within the Facebook group. And people can say, well, you can choose not to read them or not to participate. Turn off your phone, you know, and I think those are all if you are finding that you are reading some of the posts and having a visceral response or, you know, feeling offended, check in with yourself of how you're feeling and is it appropriate to respond back? Online? Do you need to go take care of yourself in another way? And just to be mindful of that, like, maybe you're feeling your your it is does feel personal? And and maybe you need to process that. And it might not be the best way to process it online. But again, those are I know, these are really hard steps to take. It's kind of your automatic thought and action is to respond back,

Scott Benner 28:49
right? Yeah, this just might not be a setting that's right for you in this moment. And I mean, from the outside, I swear I'm trying to have this conversation because there's two reactions. There's the like, flippant, like, human reaction, like Just leave if you don't like if it bothers you, but you're not putting yourself in their position, where they're like, you've now just let off every synopsis in the wrong word, like you're firing their brain up, you're like, Oh, my God, this is promoting something that I think is wholly wrong. Or, you know, I have to say something now I'm now I'm the defender of everyone who they imagine is going to see it. And even that's a funny thing about the internet. Everyone's not seeing what you think they're seeing. There was this thing years ago, when the diabetes space moved into Twitter at first, I think it's been long enough now I can make fun of people for this. So there were diabetes, people that got on Twitter, and they would have these like, like interactions online. Then later, they would report back. My tweet got 1.3 million impressions. And I'm like, why? 1.3 million people read your tweet, you've got 2000 followers, what are we talking about? You know, and then you realize that they take the 2000 number, I have 2000 followers. And each one of those followers has the amount of followers they have. So we'll assume that their followers saw it, too. So my tweet could have been seen by 1.3 million people. And then they'd run around espousing that that was the reach. And I think people believe that. Now I as a person who puts content in the world can tell you that if it was that easy to reach 1.3 million people, I'd be sitting on a gold chair in a gold room right now. And I am not, okay. So it's not that easy to reach people, you are not talking to as many people as you think you are. And when you post something that gets 100 likes on it, I want you to know, 100 is a very small number. There are billions of people on the planet, you in your in a group with 40,000 people, and you got confirmation from 100 of them, you have statistically reached none of them. And but people have this feeling online, like my voice is carrying. And I'm impacting people, and I don't think people realize they're not they're not, I have a huge reach online, and I am not impacting as many people as you think I am. So you on your private Facebook group, we're talking to yourself and your old neighbor, some guy from high school. So good luck.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 31:35
Yeah, I feel like if, if that maybe people do find, you know, we know that people find value in numbers. And are they impart that they're valuable based on how many likes how many repos? How many shares? And if that is where you find value, that's okay. But also, conversely, you are valuable, I would say, you notice that you're valuable, even without all of those likes, and perhaps maybe kind of reevaluate. Why, what are you saying and why? And what are you getting out of it?

Scott Benner 32:16
Yeah, I don't mean to say that they're wrong. I mean, by say that they're not changing the world the way they think they are. We have a whole generation of kids who think they're advocates, because they have an Instagram, like, You're not helping anyone get nice try, like, like your your post that reached 500 people is not going to change a company. I know you think it's going to it isn't going to, but it doesn't mean your thoughts are wrong, or that you shouldn't live your life that way. Teach your children that way. Speak to people that way, where that are that what you're saying is not incredibly valuable? Like you're just I mean, think of all the good things in the world that we can all agree with. Clean water is a great example, right? We all know that. Okay. How come it doesn't happen? I mean, you all have an Instagram, have you not said something about it? How come how come the people in Flint, Michigan aren't swimming and great? Well, it's because that's not how this works. And, but people get stuck in the idea, especially now that social media is in everybody's hand that like I have real power here. And you just you do your power within your own life, you know, and you can I hate to say this, like, act locally, and maybe that will grow. But I don't know, you're not. There was that one moment in social media, where you could scare a company in two seconds. You could have a bad a bad vacation or something. And you could get on Twitter and go, Hey, you guys, you know, baba, baba, bah. And the company would literally like find you and call you and be like, we're so sorry. If you take that tweet down. We will be like this. Now nobody even they don't even do that anymore. Like, I don't know how to tell you like most companies. The way most companies handle, people who are upset with them online is just ignored away. They don't really do anything about it. And how was that? How was that what happens? That's what happens because what they learned is your tweet, your Facebook thing, your Instagram thing, it really doesn't. It doesn't hit hard enough to make a problem for them.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 34:19
So the ripple effect isn't as significant as you think it is.

Scott Benner 34:23
And so while you're busy online, or in your own family ranting and raving about something, you've really just kind of solid the relationship you have with these very Pete these close people who are with these 50 people who saw your post or the seven or eight people in a room with you. You're not You're not doing what you think you're doing. But you could be and that's what we talked about earlier. You absolutely could be impacting people differently if you found a better way to deliver what you were saying. And I just I hope people think about that, like the delivery person, you know,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 34:58
and I think in that day livery. And I see people do this in the threads as well is remind if it gets kind of out of hand and out of control. Someone will come in, you know, either the peacemaker or the reminder of like, well, let's go back to the topic. That's the the first post, because it's really easy to get caught up in the discussion. And it's law, you know, the very first point or question or comment is lost. And so that would be maybe something helpful to do as well. If you're wanting to engage in a conversation or comment, go back to the original post to see, you know, what, what was this person asking? And I think we've talked about this before, as well as when you are the first poster in a comment. Or asking for to be very clear with what you're needing as well, because sometimes it is venting, sometimes it is seeking, you know, clarification or seeking questions. And you can even lead with that, like, just looking for some validation, or really looking for some new ideas on how to treat lows in this specific area of my child's life. You know,

Scott Benner 36:06
it's all very doable as well, like, you have to be patient and listen, take it from me. I, my Facebook group is one of the largest groups for diabetes in Facebook, and it is it easily one of the most active if not the most active one. And it's also what most people describe as a nice situation to be yes, I did that on purpose. I built that that way on purpose. And then I introduced other things, I have blended together, people who eat all different kinds of ways. In one diabetes Facebook group, not seen anywhere else. There's low carb, there's vegetarian face diet, but not me. I'm like you got diabetes, forget type one or type two, you come on in here, I don't give a crap how you eat, you're allowed to talk in here. I brought type twos together with type ones. And nobody's done that. I've been around this space for 20 years, you people wouldn't say type one and type two diabetes in the same sentence level in the same paragraph. Because what what were they afraid of? Type ones would say, Well, I don't want to be categorized as type two, because those people did it to themselves, which isn't even true. And yeah, and then. And then the type twos would be like, Well, I don't want to be about them. They use insulin, they're really sick. That's the bad kind. The like, then they started using words like the bad kind of diabetes for this one. Like, in sadly the worst kind. Yeah, that was prevalent, and still is not my space. Because I set it up not to be that way I set expectations. People follow those expectations. When people fall outside of the line of them. I don't ban their account. I don't like I write in public. I respond back, I don't DM anybody, you try to DM me, you're not hearing back from me. I'm not getting involved in your crazy yelling and screaming. But online, I'll say listen, here's here's what I'm seeing. You seem like you are very passionate about this. And I think this might be why is that right? And but can you also see that this person seems very passionate about it, too. And I think they have their own reasons. And you guys can share information with each other without yelling at each other without telling each other, you're wrong. Because you're both right. And this conversation is important that people come by and say what are you going to delete it, not going to delete it, it's valuable. And the other thing you don't realize is that the 10 or 20, or 50, people that are commenting in a post are again, the very small minority of people who are actually seeing it. And most people, it's sort of like talking about politics. We focus on the right and the left, and we ignore everybody in the middle who basically agrees. And that happens online to like the people who you know, not don't think of it just right and left but from, you know, polar opposite perspectives. And mostly everybody's like, Oh, that lady makes a good point. But she's a little weird. And that guy makes a good point. But I don't like the way he said it. And by the way, that's also very much something I've noticed too is that men can be taken as harsh when they're not being harsh. And I'm I'm, I used to be a current I used to communicate and current language, but not current embed just short and factual and to the point, and you can read it as it and guess what I did? And how rude. Yeah, guess what I did? I stopped writing like that. Because I wanted people to hear what I was saying. I knew I didn't mean anything bad by it. And there'd be other men that would come in and say no, you're misunderstanding. He's saying this. And they like Well, that's not how it makes me feel. And I'll tell you, that's a frustrating thing to hear. than to hear that you've said something in a very to you is a very clear and concise way. But then another person heard it and it made them up said, I'm upset by that, like, oh my god, I made you upset. Like, I'm just trying to, like lay this out factually, and get out of here because I don't have a lot of time to sit and like, I'm the I'm the guy making the pocket. I'm kind of busy. And it's like, so like, I'm trying to come in and say a thing. And I don't, I don't know, like, so what I learned was, I'm not writing to communicate exactly what I think when my brain says the words, I'm writing to communicate what I feel, and what I'm trying to impart and the bigger picture, it just you turn into a teacher, when you're, when you're communicating that way, I guess.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 40:35
And over time, you have learned in practice that right you have developed that skill, it's it is it is a skill to communicate authentically, to a broader audience who can understand what you're saying and receive it, it is a learned skill,

Scott Benner 40:50
it took me a long time to build up to where it is, and I'm not, I'm still not great, like amazing at it. But I'm much much better at the when I started. It also like you probably seem like once or twice a year, somebody will get out of hand, I get angry about certain things I don't like companies selling their crap to people. And that kind of stuff. And people trying to slip in and slip in links to things and if I get upset about that, and I will like be more authoritative when I come back. But I'm between you, me and everybody who's listening. That's the razor's edge of my anger. Like, if I let my whole anger out, you'd be like, Oh, my God. And I'm articulate and know how to write and how to communicate, like I could be. I could be piercing if I wanted to be like, I could knock you over out of your chair, if I wanted to be, I don't want to do that. If that's not my intention, or my desire, or my thought, but I don't know that intention, desire and thought gets involved, when people are arguing, I think they just reached down as far into their bag of horrors, they can pull out a handful of it and throw it forward. And I guess that's a different consideration, right? Like, when you when you aren't actually interested in communicating, you actually are interested in hurting somebody when you see that, just ignore it. And yeah, I'll tell you to, from from, from a lot of experience, those people, they come around eventually, some of them but most of them disappear before they come around. And just just telling your Facebook feed, like I don't want to see from that person might be a good idea. You know, yeah, so

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 42:29
you can set obviously emotional and physical boundaries around people in your life like that, and and on mine. And I will say, you know, conversely, going back to the point the community that you have created, from when I do read lots of threads. The majority are kind and supportive. Yeah. And and, and will advocate an intervene when it feels like things are spiraling, you know, other other members.

Scott Benner 42:55
Oh, I see them. I'm like, Yeah, manage the threads

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 42:59
self managed. Exactly. And I think that's why it has been such a success. And when people do feel safe, and supported and go there for support, ideas, interventions,

Scott Benner 43:11
I wouldn't want to give the impression that it's like, it's like the Wild West, like, I mean, I don't know the exact number. But overwhelmingly, 99.9% of that group is just lovely people helping each other. But every once in a while someone's like, Hey, you shouldn't eat this. And I'm like, Ah, and even that I've quelled. It took me two years to get out the like, we do not tell people how to eat, when, like, if you do not tell people how to eat in this group, it took me two years, and I'm telling you, it's good now, like we've fixed it, like it's, it runs smoothly.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 43:47
It's been it's been normalized that, you know, you can eat the way you want to eat, but you don't have to, you know, inform and advocate others to do to say, Yeah, you

Scott Benner 43:55
don't have to, and by the way, because there's no good way to do it. Like, what are you gonna say to somebody you don't think they know, you know, your genius is gonna, like turn the light on over their head. They know, they got a hand in the burrito bag, they're upset with themselves, they already know. They're like, I shouldn't be doing this. And here, it isn't happening anyway, you coming along and telling them how you went low carb and look at me and pulling up your shirt and showing your abs and stuff like that, hey, helping anybody. I've also changed the flow of how people think about succeed, about celebrating successes with their diabetes. That used to be a very frowned upon thing in the group. I've always maintained that people's success should act as hope and guidance, and that you need them to come up and say, hey, look what I did. I used to be a seven and a half. I'm a 5.2. Now, I think you should see that and think I might be able to do that too. I don't just think you should think that I offer you episodes to listen to so that you can go try to accomplish that on your own. And I don't know how many people who would have have accepted unhealthy lives are now living better because of that. And that is the thing that the diabetes community in general stood firmly behind not doing for years. Never tell people if you're doing well, don't show them a good graph, don't show them a good number, you're gonna make them feel bad. And I thought, why can't we make them feel hopeful?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 45:22
So yes, I want I love that reframe so that if you are listening to this now, and you're seeing somebody say, my agency went from, you know, a nine to a six, or whatever it is, that if you see that and feel either ashamed, or hopeless, that's also feedback to say, what do you need to do? Do you need help managing the diabetes, you need help with your thoughts and emotions and how you're seeing that data. But that is the motivation behind sharing that is hope and not to shame.

Scott Benner 45:56
That's why I asked people to, to leave reviews of the podcast, because then I can use them in social media. Like when you come along, you say, I'm 53 years old, I've had diabetes for 25 years. And I started listening this podcast last year. And this this and this has happened now. That's amazing. Like, I'm reading a note right before you and I got on from a type two, who was like, Thank you for making this type two Pro Tip series. I've been up all night listening to this. And you have exactly encapsulated how I feel and all the guilt and the shame that I have from this. And I'm going to do about it like that kind of stuff. Like that's big stuff. And, but you'll notice I didn't do it by getting online and going who rose the boat, you roll a boat, go for a run. You're on? Yeah, like I noticed this the other day, I just time or am I going to take you? Yes. Okay, now we're good. We're good. Okay. It occurred to me the other day, in the last five or six years, podcasts from very healthy fit, often, like military guys have become incredibly popular, like they are very, very popular. And I am not saying by any stretch of the imagination that exercising is not what you should be doing. We should all be exercising, and probably a lot of us more than we are. My point is, with the popularity of all this stuff. How come I don't see people getting thinner? Why don't I see people healthier? Why am I see more guys running around 10 miles a day? Like, yes, it's interesting to listen to. And it might feel very motivational. But if a year and a half later, you still have 30 pounds to lose, then the guy screaming and yelling at you and the podcast didn't help you made you feel better for a little while, because you're like, Oh, I'm gonna do this. Except he can do it because it's his job. And you work at IBM, and you're sitting on your ass for nine hours. And you can't go outside at four in the morning and go for a 20 mile run. Right, like so. I understand why they're popular. But I don't know why we don't stop back and look and go. Yeah, but they're not really helping that many people. And, or else, I mean, that popularity should have shifted into mass change. And it didn't, they're reaching millions of people. And yet every time I turn on the TV, that's not the case of what's going on, right? I've always taken that perspective with the podcast, which is it needs to help you not like that was one of my first founding thoughts about this. Like when I was writing a blog, I was like, it doesn't matter. Like, like, Yes, I can write a blog post and say, hey, my daughter's blood sugar was low tomorrow morning. And that sucked. And here's how I feel. And then other people see that and they go, Oh, that happens to me too. And I know there's value in that, like I absolutely do. But I just kept thinking like, Wouldn't it be better if you weren't low at 2am? Like, why don't we get to that part? Why don't we start talking to people about how to actually not what they should be doing, or what the right thing to do would be, but a thing that would actually move them towards a better place. And that maybe they could then make their own motivation and their own. Force that in so you don't need somebody yelling at you to get up at? I don't know,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 49:03
do whatever. And that might work for some people, but not most. Yeah.

Scott Benner 49:06
And listen, I'm not I am also saying I'm sure it's helped some people and God bless. Terrific. But you know, I know me. And like and, and I think that there's a way again, you're not just getting on and saying do this. Like here I am again today to tell you these are the right things. If you do these things, you'll be okay blah, blah, I tell a story, this the story of this lady and how it happened to her. And here's the guy that happened him and a little kid and a mom and a 50 year old and a 14 until you can hear so many stories that you think I could be one of those people. I probably have one of those people like what is this? They're doing that I'm not doing this so my my point again about talking to people is communication is not for telling people how to think communication is for sharing things, and then you hope that people take something from it. Whether it's in a one on one conversation guy with a podcast or a Facebook group, any people I got this all figured out if you just listen to me, you'd be okay.

Unknown Speaker 50:13
You got all the tools? Sure.

Scott Benner 50:15
It's just about how you talk to people. Now, if we have time, I'm going to transition into something else. Okay, it's gonna come right out and say it. Okay, all y'all who seem to get off online saying, I met people using a CGM who don't have diabetes, or you can't use a GLP. One to lose weight, because it's a type two medication, and then you get all upset about it. I gotta say, you should stop. You know, like, it's just, it doesn't make any sense to me at all. If if a person needs to lose weight, and they need a medication to lose weight, and it makes their life better, what do you care if somebody wants to see their blood sugar so that they know the impact that grapes are having on them so that they can talk themselves into not eating grapes anymore? What do you care? Like? Like, I know, everybody's like, well, there'll be a shortage, like, stop it. There's not going to be a shortage. Pharma companies know how to make stuff that makes them money. There'll be okay, okay, maybe there was a moment where, you know, GLP TLP ones came became like, you know, in the Tiktok world and stuff like that, and the company got caught off guard, they're not gonna get caught off guard again, they want to sell the drug to people who need it, that's their business. There's not going to be a shortage, there's not going to be a shortage of insulin, there's not going to be a shortage of Dex coms or li braze. Because Dex calm and Abbott sell CGM. And if you want to buy more CGM, they want to sell you more. Okay, like, like, there might be a moment where there's an ebb or a flow but but if you've been listening to this podcast for years, the CEO of Dexcom has been on here saying like, we want to, we started with type ones. And then we want to get Medicare and Medicaid because that's a pathway to insurance understanding what it does for people. And then once they understand what it does for people, we want to get it for type twos. And then they're going to want to pre diabetes. And then guess what, now you help eliminate this illness for so many people. Like why would you get online and rant and rave at somebody? Because they have a CGM? Is it because you can't afford it?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 52:25
They I feel like most of the time is maybe fear, fear of what scares not scarcity of this of the product, which, you know, that was there for a little bit for one of the drugs. But I do agree that these companies want to make money and so they will figure out a way to prevent that from happening again. But I think it's often fear when we lash out and criticize other people's choices. It's often because we are we're scared. We're not we're not certain of how their actions are. They're going to affect me personally down the line. And, and maybe you really have a personal opinion and feel like that's it's the use is an improper or ineffective. But I'm not sure going back to you know, is is online communication, the best forum for that probably probably not

Scott Benner 53:23
also, you scare people into stopping, saying saying their story. Like, I think, you know, we just Jenny and I just recorded a type two episode this morning about GLP ones and other medications you will use for type two. And I said, I get why people are like, I hear you. I know that some people have like a famine mentality. And they think, oh my god, it's going to be gone. Like I mean, one of the most popular conversations online is like, what, what, what if the zombies come? Where am I getting insulin from? You're not. But but the zombies aren't coming? You're okay. You know, they're gonna keep making it. And so I said to Jenny, I'm behind people getting on tick tock and saying, like, hey, look, I stuck this thing in my leg. And I started doing it last year, and I'm 70 pounds lighter, and my life is better and I am healthier, because then other people who feel stigmatized will go Alright, well, that lady put a video up of herself. I would never have let somebody see me like this. But look at her now. Like, this is terrific. You know, like, I think I may have come out and said, I think everybody that needs to lose 40 pounds to get this drug like imagine where the world would be a year from now. If everybody who had 40 pounds to lose had lost it and felt better about themselves and was healthier and didn't need heart

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 54:41
replaced on the side.

Scott Benner 54:43
Yeah, I mean, just forget financially. How about happiness? What if those people all their hunger was all satiated for whatever reason? Like yeah, maybe some of them had crap parents and maybe some of their brains just tell them to eat like anywhere in between. But if if an entire generation shouldn't people could let that go, then their kids would grow up with a better understanding of how to fuel their bodies, then maybe this wouldn't. So stop being so scared of everything all the time. And I said, I hope type twos start jumping up and going, Hey, here's my mom, Jericho or my ozempic. And instead of showing me their weight loss, show me your a one C coming down and your stability happening and like, you know, back to your life and that kind of stuff. Like, I don't think hiding, we're forcing people to stop talking is the right way to do this. And you don't know what's gonna happen, or what good might come from some personal trainer wearing a CGM, or, you know, my brother wearing it or because he's got type two and, and in his doctor says, Well, you know, it's not covered for this yet, or like, your insurance won't cover it or something like that, like, you want to normalize this stuff to help people you have no idea what good places it might go. And instead, it's right back to I'm the whole set. I'm the world. I'm the center of this conversation. There's a person who has the thing I don't have, it's not fair. It's not right. And I need it, and therefore they shouldn't have it. Those two things are not connected to each other, like, like your lack of financial ability, or the deficit you have with your health insurance, if you have health insurance, or that you don't have health insurance or whatever. It doesn't have anything to do with that person. It's not like if they don't buy it, the company is gonna mail it to you for free. That's not happening. I get the feeling. I understand the anger. I understand the I understand all of it.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 56:40
And the pain, right like I want that, but I can't afford it. I want that for my whole family to experience CGM. But how do we do that mean? It's they're experiencing pain, right? In those moments

Scott Benner 56:51
percent. It's, it's a hard like, and I'm not, I'm not saying it's not. I'm saying going online and railing against that person. They're not going to stop using the CGM or the GLP. One or whatever you think whatever you're yelling about. They're just going to stop talking about it. And then, and then imagine, I guess, imagine if I didn't start telling people how we manage my daughter's blood sugars. Like they're like, do that. Okay. Okay. Imagine that I, which, by the way, happened to me, but I pushed through it. Imagine I started speaking up about how we managed Arden's insulin. And someone was to have said to me, maybe this is a direct quote, you can't tell people how you manage your daughter's insulin because it's dangerous. And I went, I don't agree with you shut up. And then I didn't listen to that person. But what if I did? What if I just went Oh, yeah, okay. The show's got over 11 million downloads. now. It's getting a half a million a month. Right? Like, it's touching places, like you just can't imagine. And it's and the notes come constantly about my agency, my variability, back to running, I had a baby, if any idea how many people call me to tell me, I am the reason they had a baby. I don't get any of America, but they call me okay. And I'm just saying, like, don't stop some middle aged person on Tiktok, from showing you how their weight loss is going. Because it really you don't know where this is going to go. And I don't see why it's a bad thing. Like, listen, I told Jenny, I'll say to you, too. I understand the diet, you know, fueling better fueling exercise, like this is the key. But I don't know how long a person's got to live, where that's not helping. And then, and then society ends up telling you, oh, they're their last cause. And so we write them off, and we'll just get the next generation. But that doesn't happen. Because now I'm hearing that kids are getting type two diabetes. And you know, and obesity in children is going up. It's it's a weird thing to look at people like products coming off an assembly line and going oh, that one didn't work. Throw it away. The next one will be Oh, no, that one's worse. Throw it away. No one ever goes back and looks at the assembly line. They're just they're just like, oh, yeah, just keep throwing, we'll keep the good ones. Get rid of the bad ones. Keep the good ones get rid of the bad ones. There are people for Christ's sake there. You know, I mean, they're not they're not Cadbury eggs, like they're, they're people. Just you know, by the way, you could still eat a Cadbury egg if it had like a split out of it, but and I don't know that people see it that way. But I do. You yell and scream at somebody shouldn't be wearing a CGM. You are silencing them, and you are stopping a potential benefit from coming for other people. And maybe, and this would be terrible. Maybe you shame them out of using it. And that would be horrible. So I understand why you feel that way. But I mean, from my perspective, you sound you said On silly when you're saying it, you just do you know, the your argument is not the argument. If you can't afford it, that's an argument. Should it be cheaper? That's an argument. Yeah. Should insurance companies cover it? That's an argument. Other people shouldn't get it that I don't understand, like, so. I don't know. Maybe there's a reason I don't get but I just think, shine a light on everything and let the good stuff rise to the top. And let's see what happens. I'm sorry. I thought Wait.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:00:27
Yes. No, I Well, I think it just Yeah, going back to why why do we make comments about certain things, going back to just the beginning of either we're passionate, we want to convince others about our opinion. We feel threatened or scared or excited. And we want to share, and I think just constantly trying to apply that, you know, the filter or the lens of how is this going to land with the viewer or the reader? And just try to check yourself again? No, it's just just check yourself sounds so easy. But just constantly applying the filter. And I think we can, it'll be in even, it's already a safe place, the community, the Facebook community that you've created, but it could be even safer during that practice, which I think would be awesome.

Scott Benner 1:01:17
Well, that's terrific. And while I'm busy saying things that people aren't gonna like, let me just add this. When you argue that they have type two, and I have type one, we're not the same and they can't be here. That sounds the same to me. It sounds it sounds absolutely ridiculous to me, I've had that said to me, I've received emails and said, I see you're doing type two content. Stop it. You keep this podcast type one. I don't know what that means. Like, uh, you know, meanwhile, a lady with type two wrote me the other day and said, You know, I asked for a C peptide test. And the doctor said, I don't understand like, what's, how would your management change? If you're using insulin? We think your type two which you're using is on how would your management change? If you knew you were type one. And that person said, well, then I would think it wasn't my fault. And I and so I see, I see that. But at the same time, type two type one, it's still not your fault. Like we can dig into it. But foods been going wrong for about seven decades now. And we and we've been pushed into more processed higher carb, higher sugar stuff that tells your brain you're hungry, you're hungry, you're hungry. And then somebody ends up with insulin resistance and pre diabetes. When we go, oh, they did it themselves. You're out of your mind. Like, like, everybody who talks like that is foolish. That's there's five people who actually have to go out and buy spinach and make it with a half a piece of chicken and don't put any oil on it, and then go for a 10 mile run and the rest of you are foolish. Okay, like so. That's that. And I, again, I think it's one of those like, Well, they did it to themselves. It's not about them. It's about you not wanting to wonder how it happened to you. Right? Like, I'm, I don't see a difference between that argument. And when somebody tried to tell me 10 years ago, that Hurricane Katrina, people who were trapped by Hurricane Katrina, they just didn't work hard enough. And that's why they couldn't get away from it. I'm like, You're out of your mind. Like, you don't understand generational poverty, if you're talking like that. That's right. Yeah. And so anyway, I feel

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:03:32
like that that's, we could talk about this, you know, the topic between type one and type two, and the shame involved in that and how, you know, even 32 years ago, when I was almost 33, when I was diagnosed, it was very, it was juvenile versus adult onset. And then it became more type one and type two. And even in my generation as a little girl, I remember being told, Well, you don't you don't have type to this and then that became my narrative like, oh, that's type one. It's not the kind that I brought on myself. But that that line and I still do hear that because there's either if there's fear, there's shame. But that doesn't help either community have type one or type two right in that mindset, and that neither group or subset within the type one let's talk about the lotta you know, there's so many different groups within the diabetes umbrella that none of us want it and there and we still don't really even know why we all have it, but no one did it to themselves.

Scott Benner 1:04:34
I tend to that I say, the people you got to think bigger, like, like you really you got to think bigger, like stop looking at things. So like micro like, Oh, this is this and I got the bad and you got the good like, that's crazy. Like, you know, type ones. There are some type ones who are starting to use those GLP one medications, and they're helping them and Jenny told me about somebody who's Using 10 units a day less insulin on a GLP one and insulin it so they're looping with a GLP. One, okay? And 10 almost like 15 or 20% of their daily insulin has gone down. And, and they're losing weight. And and by the way, that drug was for type twos. So say thank you like, like, like what do I always say when people give me crap on it I'm like I would prefer if you just said thank you and went away. But this is fun too. But, you know you My point is, you don't know what's going to come up with these things. And they might end up helping you. And I'll tell you right now if it becomes the common practice, that type ones do a once a week injection and insulin, there a one sees are all magically in the fives and they're eat more of the foods they want. And they're not gaining weight and blah, blah, because they're not eating a ton of stuff for Lowe's all the time to correct Yeah. Oh, my goodness, well, then I want am I going to hear a bunch of apologies? I don't think so.

Unknown Speaker 1:06:05
That all sounds pretty amazing. Is the lady

Scott Benner 1:06:07
wrote me going? Don't let these type twos in here. Is she gonna go? Oh, my fault, like no, like, so. You sound silly, is what I'm saying. Like just just just in a sentence. Just want for everybody else, what you want for yourself. That's all just want everybody to be okay, or better or happy or whatever is going to do it for them. And why don't they? Why do you care how they get to it? That's the part I don't understand. Like, just Why do you have an opinion about this? And not for nothing. You can take that sentence and apply it to basically everything that people argue about. And you'd be okay. Everybody's gonna have a reason. Like, oh, I'm defending this, or I'm defending that, or God told me or whatever the hell they're gonna say. But in the end. It's not you like it's not your life? Just, you know? I don't know. Let it be. It's a good song. You should go listen to it. I mean, my God. All right. What did I not do say? What'd I do? Wrong guy told me now?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:07:14
No, I think I think we covered it. I think in essence, I think our goal was to Yeah, just want one everyone to get along. Just you know, I think communicate effectively, communicate authentically and communicate with compassion. And, and living that way, you'll feel better about yourself too, and the way you communicate with others.

Scott Benner 1:07:39
And I'll tell you to not having a victim mentality is pretty helpful too. Because often the conversation you find yourself in is as much you're doing as it is someone else's. And instead of saying this person did this, or they said that or they made me upset, you might want to look at why that is. Because there are plenty of people who can hear things and go on without, you know, without crumbling and screaming and everything else and it's not always someone else's fault. Like I'm not saying you can't run into somebody who's an absolute prick, and like, just be like, Wow, what the hell, you know, but we've gotten to the point now where people are like you did this to me like, I don't know. Like, come on. Anyway, this will be fun. I can't wait to lose a bunch listeners over this one. Thank you.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:08:24
All right, bye bye.

Scott Benner 1:08:31
A huge thank you to one of today's sponsors, G voc glucagon, find out more about Chico Capo pen at G voc glucagon.com. Forward slash juicebox you spell that GVOKEGLUC AG o n.com. Forward slash juicebox. Also want to thank Omni pod and remind you that you can learn all about it and get started at Omni pod.com forward slash juice box check out the dash checkout the Omni pod five Omni pod.com forward slash juice box. And of course Erica is that Erica forsythe.com. Thank you so much for listening. I'll be back very soon with another episode of The Juicebox Podcast.

#883 After Dark: Unsupported

Todays guest is an adult female who has type 1 diabetes.

+ Click for EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Scott Benner 0:00
Hello friends, and welcome to episode 883 of the Juicebox Podcast.

Today's guest is an adult female living with type one diabetes who wishes to remain anonymous. Her story starts with a parent who wrote a book about her diabetes and the impact that had on her. The conversation just goes on and on. I honestly think this might be the longest episode of the podcast I've ever recorded. I really hope you enjoy what comes next. While you're listening today. Please remember that nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise, always consult a physician before making any changes to your health care plan or becoming bold with insulin. Also, remember that if you have type one diabetes, or are the caregiver of someone with type one, and you're a US resident, that you can help type one diabetes research by simply filling out a survey at T one D exchange.org. You can get 35% off your entire order at cozy earth.com By using the offer code juicebox at checkout, and you can save 10% off your first month of therapy@betterhelp.com forward slash juicebox just by going to that link

this episode of The Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by U S med. You can get your diabetes supplies the same way we do from us med head over to us med.com forward slash juice box or call 88087211514 To get your free benefits check and to get started today. This show is sponsored today by the glucagon that my daughter carries G voc hypo penne, find out more at G voc glucagon.com. Forward slash juice box. I'm going to start if you're ready. Yep, I'm ready. So we're going to start this one a little differently. today. My guest today wishes to remain anonymous because of some of the things we're going to talk about. So you're not going to hear her name. And that's pretty much it. So can you tell me a little bit about yourself?

Anonymous Female Speaker 2:25
Yeah, so um, let's see. I'm 33 I was diagnosed with type one diabetes when I was seven. So in November, I'm not sure what exact day so I just passed the what is that? 26 year anniversary. And I'm a therapist. That's my job as a mental health therapist. So that's been kind of fun through COVID doing a lot of stuff over zoom and telehealth. Yeah. And other than that, I'm here to kind of talk about, you know what it was like, for me growing up with diabeetus with, I don't know, I would say maybe some complicated family dynamics, and just kind of learning through my own therapy and stuff. What, how that has kind of affected me.

Scott Benner 3:15
Okay, you think this is gonna be an after dark episode?

Anonymous Female Speaker 3:18
Yeah, that's what we had originally talked about. But if if you feel like it doesn't have to be by the end, that's totally fine. It doesn't have to be

Scott Benner 3:25
I'd have to be it's however it goes. Well, you know, we can keep your name private. But you sound like the lead actor in any number of John Hughes movie. So I think we know about where you live in the country. But but that's okay. So let's let's pick through this a little bit. So you were diagnosed when you were seven? And you're a you're a therapist now? Yes. Okay. All right. So, do you remember anything about your diagnosis?

Anonymous Female Speaker 3:55
Yeah, I remember. Everything really. It's it's actually kind of weird. I feel like I have very few if any memories before my diagnosis. It's almost like that was maybe like a trauma tising part. I one thing I remember distinctly as we, we left, when when we left, I went to school, and I fainted during the pictures for picture day. That was what caused them to bring me and my parents to bring me and my dad brought me to an appointment. And anyways, that morning, I had left the house that I'd always lived in. We were building a new house. I learned that day had diabeetus and I never went back to that old house because the move into the new house happened while I was in the hospital. So like one thing that's weird is I really don't remember that old house. I don't remember what it looks like at all. And I lived there for for seven years. But I just feel Like there's there's not really many memories before that, but I feel like I remember things during the diagnosis and after pretty well.

Scott Benner 5:08
Yeah. So you kind of had a traumatic experience at the same time, that another experience, which I'm sure not traumatic, but still would have been impactful on a seven year old, like moving out of their lifelong home. And all that sort of just happens on top of each other. Yeah, that's interesting. Have you seen pictures of the first house?

Anonymous Female Speaker 5:27
Yeah, I've seen pictures. And we didn't move far away. So I definitely, like drove past we would drive past our old house, and I know I would be able to take you there. I know where it is. I just don't remember like the inside of it. My sisters, I have two older sisters, and just growing up, they would like tell stories. Remember, when we would, you know, do this in our room or in that basement? And I just, I just don't have any sort of memory of like the inside of that of that house? Which they always, you know, just can't believe? Well, no, it does feel weird.

Scott Benner 6:04
I know, I think you have me and everyone who's listening, walking through their family homes and where they've lived. Because I'm, I'm, I don't know. When I was a baby, I lived in an apartment with my parents that I only know existed because my my parents drove past and said, hey, when you were first born, we lived here. But I remember the second place we live But in fairness, they live with my grandmother for a little bit. And I that would have been a house that I kept going back to as I was older. So I don't think I remember being a child there. But I do remember the house. Where's the first place I remember being a child. It's the place we moved after we left my grandmother's house. So by then I would have been six or so. And it's interesting how I can't believe you brought this up. I got a message from a kid, kid. I'm 51. I got a message from a guy that I grew up with at that time. And that first house that I in that first place we lived kind of after my grandmother's house. And he just was saying hi. And we were talking back and forth. He's not a person I've kept up with. And I remember his name first and last his brother's name. All the guys we ran around with the girls that were around. I remember who my babysitter was. And I have the worst memory but that part of my life is stuck in my head in a different way. And it's interesting that you lost that spot. Oh, that's that's something else. Was it a traumatic? I mean, you passed out during photo day. But other than that, how was the diagnosis?

Anonymous Female Speaker 7:37
Um, yeah, it was so obviously looking back 2020 We know that there were other symptoms. I, I don't remember this. But I guess one morning I had come down. Like just in my underwear because I needed I couldn't find my clothes or shirt I was looking for for school. And I remember my mom was really, like, taken aback, because I was so thin. And so she tells me about that. I also remember that I wet the bed. And I obviously had not wet the bed for many years at that point. And I I also remember that I would just beg for for a drink. I was so thirsty. And I remember my mom would be like, you just had a big, like, adult glass of juice, you can't have anything else. You know, of course, she was giving me juice, which was making it worse, but we had no idea. And I do have one memory of like sitting in her lap. This is before the diagnosis probably just a few days. And I was just sobbing because I was I was begging her for like more liquid. And she was just like, Honey, you like you've drink so much. You can't, we're not going to have any more. And I just, I was so thirsty. Obviously looking back we now know, didn't know at the time. And so I think they were already like, I think there might have even been like an appointment scheduled. But then it was like later that week that I passed out during the class picture. And my dad came and picked me up and took me to the doctor. And then I remember us getting called back to their office. And I don't really remember the doctor telling us but I know we were told and then we were brought back out to the waiting room. And that was the only time I've seen my dad cry. And he it wasn't you know, like Audible but I just saw tears and I remember I asked him if I had eaten too much candy if I had made the cause this or made this happen.

Scott Benner 9:58
And that was that was 96 Straight 96 Yep. 1996. And still, as a seven year old, you somehow made this connection that you had diabetes. And it might be because you ate candy.

Anonymous Female Speaker 10:10
Yes. And I have absolutely no idea why I would have, you know, thought that. I'm just wondering if maybe the doctor when was when they were describing it to me as a young kid was saying that it was something that we're going to have to like, you know, be careful or be real aware of how much sugar I ate and wondering if they just said something like that when they were trying to explain it and let your mom if not, for me, I was like, Oh, well, did I eat too much sugar? Yeah, so but I don't remember the conversation really with the doctor. And then I remember, my dad, you know, called my mom. And that, again, he was crying. And then we went to the hospital, and I was in the hospital for a week. Because at that time, that was just what they did. They didn't, you know, send you home in the same day, or after a day or two. I was in the hospital and, you know, had diabetes educators come in, and I wasn't in DKA are anything so?

Scott Benner 11:14
Can you picture? Can you picture that hospital room in your head?

Anonymous Female Speaker 11:18
Yes, I can. Yes. And my dad stayed with me pretty much the whole week. They had like a cot brought up. So I remember we watch movies together. And there were parts of it. You know, that was kind of kind of fun. I remember the nurses letting me like run up and down the hallway a few times. Because I was just like, you know, wanting to run around and be a kid. Yeah. And I remember them kind of giving me permission and giggling and watching me just run up and down the hallway a few times during that week.

Scott Benner 11:53
So do you have any other type one or autoimmune issues in your family?

Anonymous Female Speaker 12:01
Um, my grandma's sister had type one. But that is it. No, no other autoimmune disorders that I am aware of or that anyone else is aware of. I'm wondering if, like, if I might have other autoimmune disorders. I've been having some health stuff that we're trying to figure out. But so far, we don't know.

Scott Benner 12:27
What are. What are some of your symptoms?

Anonymous Female Speaker 12:31
Oh, geez. Well, the main thing right now is just like it like tons and tons of joint pain. It probably started about two years ago where it was just, you know, a couple joints. And it's really progressed over the last year where I really have pain in all of my joints. So I know we're talking about like, doing tests for rheumatoid arthritis. Yep. And that's yeah, that's something I've struggled with. It wasn't always joint A lot of times it was just muscle but I've wondered do other diabetics struggle with like being and just in body pain like I feel like for a 33 year old My body hurts more than it should

Scott Benner 13:16
ever have the feeling do you ever had the feeling that your bones hurt

Anonymous Female Speaker 13:21
um, no not my bones but but definitely the joints just the joint you know? Yep. But no not not in the middle are really in between

Scott Benner 13:32
I mean, it's a simple blood test for them to look for the markers and any Yeah, yeah rheumatologist it's an they'll bring it into the office they have you do like a couple of like It's like walking tests and bending their stuff they're looking for that they see it pretty easily. And then the blood tests of course should help as well although there are people who have it who don't who don't test positive for some of those things

Anonymous Female Speaker 13:57
in the blood. Yeah, so there I am calling back today because I know that a referral was put in for me to see a rheumatologist so that's what I'm going to go do. So we haven't run the tests yet. The other thing is and I if you look I guess this up on the internet, they're not sure if this is auto immune. So I guess this would be the only other possible family autoimmune disorder. My dad earlier this year my dad was always very athletic still is and he refs and pyres and is running around all the time. And probably about a year ago, he started to have just horrible horrible joint pain and kind of similar to mine it was like all of it didn't happen one joint and then another like they all started hurting at the same time, which is just not really how arthritis usually presents. And he went to doctor after doctor after doctor and they kept telling him like, you know you're fine. You're just getting older. We'll be fine. finally met with a I think it was a neurologist and he was diagnosed with poly mile Malaysia rheumatica. And so that's another thing that, that they want me to, you know, be tested for, because he has had that. And the good thing about that as it is, you know, somewhat I don't know, if it's curable, it can always kind of flare up again. But they just put you on a low dose steroid for like three months, and then we knew off and within like two days of being on a steroid, all of his pain was gone. And prior to that, like, there were days when like, my mom needed to put on his socks, he couldn't bend, and that's just so unlike him. So I don't I'm not sure exactly what's going on, but something is going on. But I have an appointment here in a couple of weeks off

Scott Benner 15:50
poly Malaysia rheumatica inflammatory disorder that causes muscle pain and stiffness, especially in the shoulders and hips, signs and symptoms usually begin quickly and are worse in the morning. Most people who develop it are older than 65 rarely affects people under 50. Yep. So

Anonymous Female Speaker 16:09
yeah, so that that was the one thing that I when I saw my dad for Thanksgiving, and, you know, he saw me and he just said, like, oh, sorry, I just gave away my own name. I'll bleep it out. But that's okay. But he, he said it. I can see. I mean, sometimes when I'm walking when I get up, like I just I look like an eight year old person. I'm like, very visibly limping. And he just said, I, I really think that you have what I had. And we kind of looked and I saw the age but yeah, I don't know what it is. wish to see.

Scott Benner 16:45
I wish you luck because it's obviously no fun. I do know, if you listen to the show, Jenny has Ra. And she Yeah, she manages it pretty well, with specific diet, and exercise and stuff like that. So we actually just talked about it in a recent episode. There's a how we eat episode. That's called how Jenny eats. So okay, it's in there.

Anonymous Female Speaker 17:08
Well, I'll have to listen to I do. Listen, I've listened to a ton, although I will look like right now. I'm a few months behind. I didn't listen for a while. But so I love Jenny. And I know, but I didn't know she had rheumatoid arthritis. So that's, that's good to know. Especially if I do end up getting that diagnosis that

Scott Benner 17:28
yeah, she'd be a good person to reach out to. Okay, well. So you're diagnosed, you're young. And I guess we want to get to your story. Obviously, people are like, yeah, why don't you start with that, Scott. But that's just how I like to do this. So were there problems as a child, was it smooth sailing? And then it hit a speed bump? Like, what was your progression? Like, from seventh through like high school?

Anonymous Female Speaker 17:55
Yeah, um, I guess I would say that there were problems. But I don't know that I knew it, or anyone would have known it at the time. I think that was what was kind of confusing. My dad is a writer. And so he ended up writing a couple books, but writing in public publishing a couple books for kids and people when they are diagnosed. And I was a part of that the first book, he had me like, illustrate and then we, I wouldn't call it I don't, it wasn't like an official position. But I was almost kind of like a spokesperson for JDRF in our area, I would give tons of speeches and go around at hospitals and give out the books and talk to kids. And I was on the news a couple of times for it. And so I feel like I was always thought of or people would have thought like this is like the poster child and family for like living well with type one. And it has taken me into my adulthood to really figure out how alone I felt in it and how much responsibility I was put in right away and just kind of what affects that hat. I definitely am someone who tends toward the side of being like more anxious or like perfectionistic. And so I don't think that people would have known but just processing and knowing stuff and realizing how hard it is for me to ask for help or let anyone in on the diabeetus now is just I've had to kind of process where that started and why and I think that started right away. What one thing that was always just talked about as like kind of a badge of honor. I remember my I can hear my mom particularly saying it to everyone, you know, my teachers, people at church. Just everyone how, you know, independent I was. One thing that is, like distinct about me, I guess is I was diagnosed when I was seven. But I instantly I always gave myself my own shots and tested my own blood sugar. And my mom would kind of tell everyone that and how amazing it is that, you know, I wanted to and always, always gave my own shots. And I think as a kid, I didn't know what to think of that. What I know now is I just know I had to give my own shots because of stuff that was because of our family situation. There wasn't always going to be someone there for me to depend on. And so I think I just knew that I had to do it. I have stepkids now. And as as they have, you know, come to age seven, one is older and one's younger, I just realized I would be looking at them and thinking that they would never choose, or maybe even be able to like give themselves their own shots. But I had to because my mom was not very involved at all. She was a teacher, my dad struggled. He was a writer, and then and he was doing quite well. But then the recession kind of hit and pretty much after that he struggled to have like a consistent job or consistent income. And so my mom was working a lot. And my dad was an alcoholic. He didn't drink daily, I would say he was, I don't know, I'm putting this in air quotes, but like a functional alcoholic. Meaning that he just, he, when he drank, he drank way too much. And he would, you know, get kind of belligerent, he would be passed out. And like I said, he didn't drink every day. But he he drank a fair amount like it, at the very least every Sunday, you know, was golfing or football and he would be, you know, passed out. And so I think I knew that. Even though my dad was the one who was by far the most there for me. I knew that he wasn't always going to be there. Right. And I think I knew that I had to be able to step in and not ask not at need to ask for help.

Scott Benner 22:55
Do you have a lot of the classic like, child have alcoholic problems?

Anonymous Female Speaker 23:03
Ah, yeah. Yes, I think so.

Scott Benner 23:07
Can you as a therapist, tell me which ones you recognize in yourself?

Anonymous Female Speaker 23:13
Oh, geez, I would probably have to pull up the list I want to go through like, clinically, but I mean, I know that I feel like that I am a helper that I like caretake you know, very, very independent. very, like, afraid of doing something wrong. I really, I obvious I don't like being around people who are really drunk. Especially anyone, like who is kind of an angry drinker, because that was definitely my dad. So yeah, I guess that that

Scott Benner 24:03
hyper vigilance thing, where you just, you feel like something's always about to happen. And that's where that feeling of, I can't count on you comes from. And then it's worse if, if he's the one you're counting on. Yeah, because your mom's off working. She's covering for him in a different way. And, and so and now you have to be the one and then on top of that, there. So their behavior forces you into doing something that a child shouldn't have to do. And then you're celebrated for it on the other side. So it's Yeah, and yeah, it's confusing in two different directions.

Anonymous Female Speaker 24:41
Yeah, and you know, Scott, one of the things that I I find the weirdest and again like I I have done you know, my own work the end there, I think there's always more work to be done. So I'm not saying it I'm, you know, overall of it, but like I have talked a little bit With my parents about this, but not, not a whole ton directly, and I don't know that I ever will, I don't, I don't know that I need to do that to like, heal. And I just, I don't know, I don't want to make them feel bad. That would be that would be an alcoholic kid tendency right there. Like, I'll just work through it on my own, I don't want to make them feel bad. But one of the weirdest things that I've kind of realized in adulthood, you know, of course, I was very kind of enmeshed with that whole like book writing process. I remember even pushing back against that at times, because it felt like my diabeetus like, my, my dad would, you know, just talk about it all the time, and like, send me articles about it. And I just remember, I would say, like, I'm not my diabeetus. Like, I don't care. I don't need to be reading articles and diabetes books and doing all of this stuff all the time. You know, I'm already doing these, like book signings. And there's just there's enough, but I don't I don't want to do more of that. Right? Yeah. Well, so then, when I went off to college, and I mean, there were several years of break of like, not, you know, seeing the books or doing anything with them. And as an adult, one day, I went through and read them. And this was after I had gone to therapy. And I realized that some of like, what I would say were kind of traumatic than maybe neglect, full medical, neglectful situations were written in the book. Like they're not, clearly they aren't things that my dad thought were not. Okay, because he tells the stories of them as kind in kind of a comedic way. In the book, and I just remember the first time reading and thinking, Oh, my God, I forgot. I thought forgot that was in here. And just, you know, I feel like this used to be something that everyone said how great they were and what we're proud and maybe people do find them. But me feeling I'm like, great. We're telling these stories that are like, really painful.

Scott Benner 27:20
Do you have an example of one of them? Like one that sticks out? Yeah.

Anonymous Female Speaker 27:24
Oh, yeah. Well, okay. So the other thing is, is my so my dad stopped drinking, because my mom, I remember, we essentially had like an intervention. And my mom had told him, like, if you don't stop drinking, we're gonna leave, I'm going to take the girls and we're going to leave. And I remember my dad left for one night, and I got I think I was about 10. And I was just sobbing and begging him to stay. And I think part of that too, was because my again, my mom really knew nothing. Like, there were times where, where I think if my mom wouldn't necessarily know, like, if my blood sugar was low, would that mean that I needed insulin? Or would I meet need food? She would know that I needed one of those two things. But I don't know, I think I'd have to kind of take the lead on which one, right? And so I don't know how much of that was tied into it. And how much of it is just you a kid doesn't want their parents to leave? Right? So he but he came back and he stopped drinking. He didn't. He didn't drink at all, from the time I was maybe about 10 Until I grew, you know, I left the house. But he also didn't do any sort of treatment or any sort of therapy. Okay, came from from an abusive household. And so, I would, I would say that he was he exhibited a lot of the behaviors of like a dry drunk. And the biggest thing is just anger. If I look back at his dad, like, my dad broke, so many of the cycles, you know, he was at never physically abusive. While there were absolutely times he was verbally abusive, he wasn't always verbally abusive. He could also be, you know, maybe 80% of the time, he was a wonderful, gentle, loving dad, but he just had anger issues. And so what I also remember is that after he stopped drinking, like, you would think, well, maybe I could lean on him more, but he would get so mad if something went wrong. And yeah, there were a couple stories like one time I came home, from movies with my friends. I think I was maybe like, 12 and I tested my blood sugar and I had, you know, Ben mindful of what I ate. This was back in the day of like, shots and regular insulin and all that stuff. And my blood sugar was maybe like 350 And my dad just flipped To out and was Scrooge just yelling at me? Like, why did I do that? Don't I care? I don't remember, I just remember him yelling to the point where I, like ran out of the house. And I locked myself in the van in the family car, and I was just crying. And he eventually came out and apologized and, you know, said that he was just afraid. I think that was the only time he ever apologized. But that story is in the book.

Scott Benner 30:36
Do you have the feeling that his upbringing was such a show? That even if he were to drag himself 80% out of it, he's still going to be the dad you got? Is that kind of the idea? Like, it's just yeah,

Anonymous Female Speaker 30:54
I think I think if he ever did any therapy, it could have been better, but I don't. I mean, I first of all, no one is perfect. We all have our stuff, you know, so I wouldn't expect but I do think that, you know, had he done some therapy around his childhood. I guess it would be my hope that hit that anger would be better.

Scott Benner 31:22
Do you real quick, do you have that feeling because of of things he thinks that he showed that made you think that he was right on the precipice, but just didn't know how to get over the hump? Does that make sense? I think

Anonymous Female Speaker 31:40
so meaning like, on the precipice of being able to even like conquer that or show. Like, what you mean, like

Scott Benner 31:47
he sees, he sees the issue, and he wants the other side of it, but he just doesn't have the tools to get on the other side of it. Is that how you feel? Oh, yes, yeah,

Anonymous Female Speaker 31:55
yeah. 100%. And it was definitely like, a huge topic. His dad was a big topic. And he lived, you know, close to us. He was actually he was like a wonderful grandpa. But he was a horribly abusive dad and husband, it was weird. It was in congruence, like he couldn't have been sweeter and more like loving and supportive as a grandparent, and then I would hear him in the other room, just screaming and swearing at my grandma and, or my dad. And so, he would always talk about how much he didn't want to, you know, be like his dad, and how and like, he did break the cycle. As far as like, he is not abusive, towards my mom. You know, my grandpa was physically abusive, verbally, emotionally, everything. And like I said, my, my dad was, I would say, verbally abusive to everyone in his life when he was angry. Which I would say happened more for sure than like the average person. And it wasn't daily either. The the other story that is probably what more it certainly brings up more emotions for me than the other example I gave was, you know, when I was doing my own shots, I don't even know if you would know what this is do. Do you know what I'm referring to when I say that I had an injector

Scott Benner 33:21
injector? I might not know.

Anonymous Female Speaker 33:26
Okay, I don't even know to let me Google and see if like, what does anything even close to it come up? Well, kind of not it does show a syringe. So okay, before pumps were a thing. And when I was diagnosed, and their pens were not really a thing yet, either. There were these big pieces, it was like I don't I literally don't know how to describe it, it was a big piece of plastic that you essentially loaded the syringe in, you pulled like a trigger back. And then you would, you know, just put it against your skin and push the button. And it would go in super fast. And it would, you know, press the plunger to inject the insulin for you. When I first got diagnosed, I just did the shots totally manually. When we found the injector That was wonderful because I remember it allowed me to like reach spots that I couldn't, you know, get all the way back with with just handling the syringe, you know, I could do all of the loading and stuff in front and then reach back and you know, just have to push a button and I could give myself a shot in the butt where I couldn't do that with just a syringe. Okay. So anyways, my I was that so this would have been before the age of 10 because 10 is when I got on the pump. And so I just that's to keep in mind for how I was we had a little dog. And, you know, again, I'm doing all my own shots, I don't really even remember I'm very good at math. And I think that was possibly started because of the diabeetus. Because I don't really think they helped me figure out my dosages either. Like, I really remember doing my own shots and drawing it up. And I do not have any memories of like my parents doing that and handing it to me, it was very independent. And anyways, on one of these times, I didn't put the injector away, and our dog chewed it up. And I was supposed to go to my grandpa, my grandma and grandpa's house that night for a sleepover, which I just was looking forward to so much. And when my dad saw that the injector was chewed up, he, you know, went into one of just his, like yelling, fits. And he said that he would I couldn't go because now, you know, I couldn't give my own shots, which doesn't entirely make sense, because I did them prior to the injector, but I did like the injector, and you wouldn't buy me a new one,

Scott Benner 36:12
you get punished, right? Yep. He

Anonymous Female Speaker 36:15
said, like, this is your fault, you are responsible. You know, again, now using my own kids as an example. It's like, I would never be expecting my eight or nine year old to take out their medicine, do it and put it away every single time four times a day. But that was kind of the expectation. And anyways, I was sobbing. He said, I couldn't go. He said he wouldn't buy me a new one. And he made me call my grandpa and tell him why. So I did. And what I do remember is about an hour later, my grandpa showed up to the door. Sorry, with an injector. And so he went and bought one. And I just remember kind of feeling like he had, you know, saved me in that moment. And that story is in the book. Yeah. Well, so to three again, just not in a way that feels like he thought I wish I wouldn't have done that. Yeah, that was

Scott Benner 37:12
probably he's probably proud of himself for teaching you a lesson. You know what I mean? He's probably like, Oh, she did the wrong thing. And I fixed her. Like, it's such an odd. It's only it's not that long ago, right. 1996 does not seem like that long ago. But Arden called me from college. She was there for like two weeks. And she goes, Hey, I broke my phone. And she's never Arden's had an iPhone since she was five. Okay, because, because the diabetes, and she's never broken one. And so I was like, Oh, what happened? She was I fell out of the bus, which by the way, if she ever comes back on the show, you have everyone needs to hear the story of Arden falling out of the bus. But she goes, and I didn't even let her finish. I'm like, are you okay? And she goes, yeah, and she starts to like, scrape my leg and blah, blah. And it was embarrassing. And like that kind of stuff. We're talking about it. And listen, I mean, I'm not. I don't I don't think anybody's in the position to just willy nilly buy an iPhone. They're freaking expensive. But I just was like, it's I'm like, That's okay. Don't worry about that. I was like, just take it back to the dorm was the glass in the back. I was like, just take scotch tape and just, you know, cover the back, put your case back on and we'll figure it out when you get home. It never occurred to me to be like, well, you have to come home from college now. Like, it's it's just, it's a generational? Like, I really think that that last group of people that grew up in the 50s, like, I don't even know, I haven't done the math. But Did your dad were his formative years, like in the 40s or the 50s?

Anonymous Female Speaker 38:45
Um, he was, let's see, I think he was born in 53. So like, I don't know if a formative but certainly Yeah, he was, you know, where he was raised. He was raised

Scott Benner 38:56
by people who lived through that time and like that whole thing. Yeah, really. Can I say something? That's gonna sound crazy. This is not about your dad. Yeah, we got one more generation of people to get rid of and then I think we're going to take a leap I seriously I'm sorry to say it like that. I think we're going to take a leap forward because of because we now have a couple generations of people who did not grow up in in that space where everything was like we're all broke and we don't have any money and there's nothing that's ever good gonna happen and like like we need we need those people who grew up like listen it'll probably trend the wrong way, it 50 years from now probably nobody will be able to take care of themselves because yeah, not one person left who remembers you know, fight and Jerry but but the point where that's a reference that only older people are gonna get, but But it's um there's there's got to be a middle ground that I know we don't find it a society we usually swing back and forth pretty greatly but, but there is time during the swing, where you get people Like you, right? Or, or even, you know, me who grew up not well, and but recognize that and and then was lucky enough to meet a woman who like when my stuff would happen, like when the things that my dad would say would come out of my mouth, my wife would be like, yo, hey, listen to yourself. You don't feel that way. What are you saying? And then, and then I could recognize like, oh, yeah, like, my dad would yell about this. And it took me it took me time to, like, I'm not gonna lie to you, like, it's hard to break free of, but we're gonna get into a generation of people who don't have as much to break free from, and then more kids are going to break their injector or fall out of a bus. And the response is going to be Oh, are you okay? Not? Yeah, you, you bastard. Like, you've ruined everything you don't? I mean, like, yeah, because your dad didn't even think that. And you know, the way I know that is because your grandfather, who you described as, you know, your dad, plus gang is con, like, like he showed up. And he was he knew he knew what happened. He knew what he did to your father, and he knew what your father was going to do to you. And he showed up with that injector to put a stop to it. Don't you think that's what happened?

Anonymous Female Speaker 41:17
Um, I've never thought of it that way. I guess I hope that's what happened. It's hard to know, because he was, I mean, until, until he died, he was very abusive. So he certainly never broke that cycle with my dad. So there's app that doesn't mean he didn't know he might have known and just not been able to stop it. Like, my dad went over and took care of him, you know, every single day for the last several years of his life. And he would, you know, just absolutely, you know, yell throw things. He was just a really a really tough guy to his people he loved the most or what's closest to, and somehow he turned that off for the grandkids and his daughters in law. daughter in law's Interesting. Yeah, he was like, kind of a different person, but you would, we would see the other person, like he would, you know, be in the same room. And he would just either be screaming and swearing at his wife or kids, or be very sweet and gentle to his grandkids or sons, wives.

Scott Benner 42:36
Depression, you think they're depressed.

Anonymous Female Speaker 42:40
Um, I know, my dad is depressed. I remember, I always that was another fear I had, I had a fear that he would like hurt himself. He has pretty caustic sense of humor. He's, he's hilarious. Like, if you talk to people, they would all put on top of the list that he was funny. But probably not the most appropriate humor all the time. And I do remember what he would joke a lot about, like, committing suicide. And I think for me, as a kid, I didn't, you know, always take that as a joke. And I remember being afraid because he was, he worked out of the home, and so well, like in the home, but I've never understood why that was the term. That was confusing me, but he had an office in our house. And I remember I would be walking home from Boston and be very anxious that I hope dad's Okay, when I Oh, wow. Get home. Yeah,

Scott Benner 43:43
she's and you are anxious to so on top of that, yeah. So he he's making over the top jokes about his own demise. And then you're spending the day thinking guy Oh, this guy doesn't kill himself. Because Because he's the only person I can count on and I can't even count on it. Oh, it's just very interesting. So I have one more question before we move into how this all this. What this did you as an adult? So here's my last question. Catholic.

Anonymous Female Speaker 44:12
No. Lutheran well, so my dad was, I think I guess it probably would have been Catholic because he went to a private school with nuns. And he was completely not religious because of that. He was also kind of abused in that setting. He so he just absolutely kind of hated organized religion after like going to school and having corporal punishment and just really pretty awful stuff from the nuns teachers at the school so he, I guess, he propped that must have been a Catholic school, right? If it was nuns. My mom was Lutheran and my mom is continues to be and took us to church. My dad never went with us. And I'm no longer religious. But yeah, I was raised going to church pretty often as a kid, just that that was just my mom and sisters, my dad didn't attend. Hey, listen, you didn't believe when I was

Scott Benner 45:17
in the fourth grade, I had a teacher. I remember his name. He's got to be dead. His last name was so gola is a prick. And, and if you weren't paying attention to his class, or he didn't like what you were doing, he would sneak up on you with a yardstick and smash it across your desk. And he wouldn't hit you. I was in public school, by the way. So if I'm in fourth grade, let's do the math. I was born in 71, I would have been well like seven in fourth grade. So it was like it was the late 70s. And for people aged who don't know what a yardstick is, it's a measuring device about three feet long, made out of wood. And even if you still have one today, if you pick one up at the Home Depot or Lowe's, they're almost like they're a joke. They're like, Presswood. And but when I was a kid, they were a thick, solid piece of laminated, or lacquered wood, like it was the thing. Yeah. And it was frightening, because sometimes you'd see him coming. And you'll be like, Oh, God, is this for me? You know what I mean? And he would never get anybody. But that was public school. You weren't allowed to hit people. But he was still, basically, he was intimidating. Like, I look back on it now. And yeah, it was intimidation, it left you with the feeling like it could get upside down. And he might hit a mother. You know what I mean? Like like it. And that's the vibe you lived in. And I'll tell you what, he was the guy I couldn't if I've told the story before on the show, where I don't I didn't know my multiplication tables, until I was much older than I should have been. And it started with him. Like I could not learn in his presence at all.

Anonymous Female Speaker 46:57
No, it Yeah, it's that whole idea. Like when you're in like fight, flight freeze, when we're in that mode, you aren't learning, like the only information you're taking in is like, how do I stay safe right now, you know, how do I not become get on the other side of that, that yardstick? And yeah, it doesn't. It doesn't take you to actually be hit if there's the fear that you could be. And that was a little bit, you know, that would be there with my dad just because he would like I said he was never physically abusive, but he would throw stuff, or sometimes. I don't know if it was break. I guess I don't. Yeah, yes. Like I remember one time he found my sister had I think it was the kid was at the Kid Rock CD, that on the CD was just like a middle finger pointing up. And he had he had told her like to turn her music down. And I think she wasn't even supposed to have that CD, it might have been her friends. And she had it up super loud. It was horribly graphic. And he came in and I, I remember, he was yelling, and he turned it off. And I maybe I was in there with her because I can remember it. I saw him and he just held the CD up like over his head, and he just crunched it in his hand and shattered it. And so I remember that to that. Like, I never my dad never hit me. But there was there was just that fear that you there was posturing? You know, the way that that his body would be? And even just how kind of how out of control the yelling and things were. You were just never 100%? Sure. And it's easy to take a chance. Yeah.

Scott Benner 48:44
And it's easy to put it on the individual. But the truth is, is that that teacher reminded me and my father, and my father felt comfortable hitting me because I guess in his mind, oh, he owns me. So it's just it's that's what I was saying earlier. It's it's it's a slice of time. And by the way, if we go back 500 years, this would these stories would be the equivalent of like my story about falling out of the bus, I'd be like, Oh, look how far we've come. You know. So life is human beings are, are at their core, aggressive, violent things, right. And we've been teaching ourselves for 1000s and 1000s, and more years to walk away from that. And it's easy to be born in this time. And say like, this is what the world is, but this isn't what the world is. This is what the world's become. And you have no you know, when you're born and you become, you know, aware of your surroundings as you get older. You just think this is how the world has always been. And the truth is, it's not always been like this and it might not always be like this, it might change for the better. It might it could ebb for 50 years and get worse and then come Back again, like you don't have context for the big picture, the real, real big picture. And so it's like, I feel like, as much as we're talking about your father and his grandfather, we're just talking about society at that time. Really?

Anonymous Female Speaker 50:17
Oh, yeah. And just, it just follows the parent, like paradigm shifts, you know, throughout. And my goal is always just like to do, to kind of see, you know, maybe your parents or your your upbringing, clearly, and then improve a little bit, you know, it's an inch an inch better, which I think he absolutely did from his parents. And if I can, you know, be an inch better with my kids, which I, I think that I am certainly tried to be, then I think that that's, that's kind of all we can do. That's, that's our best as humans. Yeah, that's my goal.

Scott Benner 51:01
Well, you know, the, the, the Flynn effect, the idea that, um, people's IQs have been increasing over time, and the IQs increase over time, even in that situation, when you find yourself in a social situation. And you think, God, that person's not figuring this out, or, you know, my neighbors kind of like, seems dumb sometimes or whatever, like, those people may just be two generations behind you on this, on this path to human beings becoming more intelligent as we as we develop. And it's not like your, your neighbor's not dumb. They're not they're not at fault. Like they didn't do anything wrong. They literally just may have been to generational cycles, where they got unlucky and some dopey people made some babies together. Like, you know what I mean? Like, it's, it's not, it's no one's fault. Yeah, and it's just, it's what it is. It doesn't excuse it, if your neighbor, if your neighbor set your fence on fire, right, like you can, you still shouldn't, would be upset. But as a thinking person, if my if my dopey neighbor set my fence on fire, my first thought would be put the fire out. My second thought would be well, this doesn't surprise me. You know, now, if my neighbor on the other side did it, I think, well, that must have been on purpose, because that's a bright guy, he couldn't set his fence on fire by, you know, on by mistake. And that's the same thing with this, with this parenting stuff. And I only have context for it. Because I grew up with a guy who was like, you know, listen, or else, it doesn't matter if I'm making sense. It doesn't matter if you want to do it. Or if I'm saying the right thing, we're going to do what I say. And if we get to the point where that falls apart, I will yell at you or hit you until you fall in line. And I'm assuming that's how he was raised. And he was probably bet because I know my dad at his core. He was a sweet guy. You know, but this person that I, I told you that I talked to, from my from my past. In this short back and forth, we had he said, You know, when we were kids, I was scared of your father. And I thought, Oh, that's interesting. Like, how would he know? You know, they mean, like, he wasn't in my house. Like I was scared of my dad. But why would other people have been? And I thought, Oh, and you brought it up and you made me think of it? Because he's projecting. He's projecting himself to be scary. He wants people to cower around him. I don't know why I don't have time to figure it all out,. But that's the truth. And now we're a couple of generations behind. So okay, I'm so sorry. This is really interesting. Do you have more time then we booked? I apologize. Yeah. Yeah. Great. Great. So how did all How did this disaster impact you and your diabetes? When you have diabetes and use insulin, low blood sugar can happen when you don't expect it. 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Anonymous Female Speaker 57:10
Well, I think I've had like chapters. Um, you know, when I was when I was really young, I remember just you know, feeling like you have to manage this on your own. I definitely remember like sneaking downstairs, I did not feel well. I knew something was off. And I would sneak my insulin and meter upstairs. And I'd see 450 And I'd be like, oh god and I'd kind of guests and take a shot. And I I knew no one knew that I was taking a shot. So there wasn't going to be anyone to check if I took too much or not. And I really just have to look back at myself there and have a lot of compassion for what that would have been like for me as a kid because I knew what could happen. You know, I knew that it could that I could die. But I didn't. My dad's knowing that it was 450 and yelling was was scarier, I guess. Yeah, yeah. Point it because you're thinking,

Scott Benner 58:06
Well, I'm sorry, your blood sugar is the injector. Like you broke it. You did it wrong. You're gonna get oh, yeah, right. It's coming for you. Right, right. I'm sorry. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Anonymous Female Speaker 58:17
So I think during those years, my blood sugar's were, you know, as okay as they could be on shots with older insulins and with a, you know, 789 10 year old making the majority of the decisions. I think, you know, my A onesies were sevens, eights. And then I would say, I was probably really burned out in high school, high school in college, I would go a long time without testing my blood sugar. I think sometimes I would maybe test my blood sugar, like twice a week. Honestly. I took insulin, I didn't not. I didn't not take insulin. And I guess I was just kind of guessing by highest day one C ever. I'll never forget it. And that was in high school. Because, you know, this was also the time when they couldn't like download meters. Like you had to write everything down, right? And my, my dad would say, like two weeks before my endo appointment here, like right, go through and write all your sugars down. And I would act like I was going through the memory on my machine. But there wasn't anything in the memory on my machine. So I was just like making them up. And of course, I'd put in some highs I put it in some lows, like trying to make it you know, again, here's the here's the perfectionistic part of me. So most of the numbers were pretty good. And I went to the doctor and I met and I really liked my pediatrician and he said like, I don't have any changes. It looks great. I think I was maybe like 14 at this time and then I got a call The next day from him, the doctor and he said, so your numbers make no sense with your a one C and I was my highest, say one C that I've ever had, I think it was like a 9.8. And he said, like, I don't believe those were your numbers like, Why? Why are you lying? And I said that I wasn't, that was another thing like, oh, lying in my house if you lied, and that kind of also meant just not having boundaries. You know, there are things that I now feel like that's not a lie, that's just a, that's just an okay boundary to have that I don't need to tell you that. But so I remember, like crying on the phone and saying that, you know, why they didn't match is because I really only started to test my blood sugar before my appointment, and that I was being really bad at like managing it. And he said, You know, I'm not going to tell your parents this time, but you need to know that if this happens again, I will have to talk to them. And you need to make these like changes. And like, you know, this is your health. And so, again, I think I stepped it up a little but not a lot. It was just kind of don't die. I also developed an eating disorder in high school, so and I had a best friend who I met at diabetes camp who just happened to be in my town. We hadn't known each other before that. And she actually had, she developed like diet bulimia, where she and I never did that I never that was too scary for me to purposefully keep my blood sugar's up and not take insulin to lose weight. I was just more standard, standard bulimia. But so I don't really know how that affected it. And then I would say after college, I checked back in. But I was told for years and years, Scott that I was a brittle diabetic and God I believed it. I was going from 300 to 3300 to 34 times a day. And they would just you know, there's nothing we can do. You're you're really doing a good job managing what you can and and your podcast was like life changing for me. And I started I'd say I started listening to it probably like two years ago, and I've had the best a one sees that I've ever had. And it it really happened very quickly. That's terrific. Yeah, so I would say before that my agencies were very regularly like, oh, 7.8 to 8.2. And now my most recent one was was a 6.0. Yeah. So.

Scott Benner 1:02:57
So you would say that, basically a generational concept of how to raise people put you in a position where you weren't comfortable being honest about what was going on, because of fear of retribution somehow. And then that translated into your medical life as well. And so yeah, yeah, right. So like, you're not going to tell the doctor what's really going on? Maybe you're not afraid of the doctor, but you're definitely afraid of getting back to your parents. Do you think the doctor knew when he said I won't tell your parents this time? Do you think he knew that you'd be in trouble in a way that he didn't want to have happened to you? Where do you think he was trying to do the thing where he was like, wow, befriend this person a little bit, make them feel like I'm on their side? Maybe I can get them to do what I? What would be good for them?

Anonymous Female Speaker 1:03:46
Yeah, I think it was probably a little bit of both. I don't think he would have had in any indication from, you know, he knew my dad, my dad was came to all the appointments. And again, if you didn't, if you didn't live in my house would have known you would not know this. I had a conversation not that long ago with that friend I was talking about and you know, I've moved away from my home state and so I don't live near her anymore. And we just catch up from time to time and I didn't really realize it but I kind of opened up to the about this stuff to her for the first time. And she was just shocked. She was like, I cannot believe that that was like what it was like, like my parents would be like, Why can't you be more like, like, yeah, yeah. So I you know, he is a very, you know, funny, charming, like, likable guy. But I do wonder if he could tell from my reaction. I just don't know if he knew if it was justified fear or not, or if that was just me having anxiety. perfectionistic afraid okay, but he probably I mean, I do think he could tell that. I don't know if he knew that my parents would react bad But at least I thought they would. And so he was like, Okay, this one time, as long as you promise me you're gonna do this, I'm not going to involve them. But know that if you don't, you know, get it under control or change it, I will have to I felt

Scott Benner 1:05:14
happy for you and kind of proud of you. And you said you don't live in that state anymore. It's a big thing for a person the way you the way you did away, that's a big deal. Yeah,

Anonymous Female Speaker 1:05:24
I yeah, I am the only one who doesn't, and I live close enough where you know, I can, I can drive home, but it's like a six hour drive. And so I do it, you know, a couple times a year, and everyone else in my family still lives there. And I can just say that I am a much healthier person having the space. And it is interesting, every time I go home, just seeing I am much I'm more of like an outsider now, because I have kind of, I've grown and I would just say that my sisters and parents have stayed very much in a very similar dynamic,

Scott Benner 1:06:09
the gravity of those situations is so heavy. And it it draws people in. And they just can't break away from it. Right. It's just in the codependence that happens. And the unhealthy behaviors that, that feed each other, and help how people in the family take on, you know, rolls, like, you know, you're the person, you're the person in the family, we can all pity and you're the person the family will get on. And you're the person in the family, it seems like they're in charge a mom and dad are somehow treated like, you know, I don't know, like the pope and his assistant like, even though we all know they're not. And it's, it's really interesting, it happens. I mean, everyone listening who has something like this going on recognizes that and their family, like this just disaster that everything is that everyone pretends is normal, and okay. And then when they kind of can get away from each other a little bit for five minutes. And all of the pressure to act the way you think you're supposed to act and do the things you think you're supposed to do. As soon as you get away from it for a little bit. You can look and say, Oh, that's, that's insane. Like I should I shouldn't be near that. And then some people have the ability to break away from it and some don't.

Anonymous Female Speaker 1:07:25
Yeah, and then even when you're away from it for a long time, if if you're not real careful. You know, in our case, we're a family of five, if four people you know, you go home for Thanksgiving or Christmas and four people are still playing those same roles. Yeah, if you're not real aware of it. It you know, they they will, I think very subconsciously, but kind of do everything to pull you back in that role. Oh, yeah, that's definitely something I'm always mindful of. And there's times where I'm like, oh, yeah, I totally fell back in the role of being like, the sick one that everyone can, you know, kind of feel bad for, but yet, at the same time, blame and it must be your fault that this is happening. Do you think and

Scott Benner 1:08:12
God I'm sorry, keep going. I just don't,

Anonymous Female Speaker 1:08:15
ya know, I would just that I can. And then there are times where I feel like you did a really good job not, you know, this was a time where you could have like, you, you felt like you should say this, but you didn't and you like stayed a little bit more true to who you are and want to be today. And you know, it's just it's, it's crazy how quick that stuff can come back to?

Scott Benner 1:08:38
Do you think that everyone's family? It Like It's a spectrum? Like, is there an amount of this? Not maybe, maybe not the, the abusive stuff, but like, there's an amount of crazy in every family. It's just that at some level, it's just expected because it's human interaction and family dynamic and stuff like that. And then the alcoholism and the anger and the the aggressive stuff, just kind of pushes it to another level, like the or do you think that somewhere right now? Like, the like, I don't know, Wally and the beaver and their parents, and they exist somewhere? Where do you think that doesn't? Yeah, no,

Anonymous Female Speaker 1:09:16
I think there's, I think there is a level of dysfunction in every family. And I think that just because I think every human has, I always tell my clients, we can all be awesome. And we can all be assholes, like, you wrote, are day to day. And so I think that there's a level of dysfunction. But I agree there's absolutely a spectrum. And obviously, like abuse is is on the more extreme intense end of that of the spectrum. But yeah, I think I think that there's a level of dysfunction. That's why I think like, everyone can benefit from therapy at some point. I don't think there's any sort of like shame in going to therapy or I I think it's part of kinda like seeing, seeing things clearly.

Scott Benner 1:10:04
It's a weird balance, right? Because aggression, I mean, there's a time in history where if you weren't an aggressive person, you weren't going to, you weren't going to make it. You know, and so that's built into you. And now you could say, in certain parts of the world, you don't need to be aggressive to make it. But there's still places where it matter. Like I joke about it when I talked about the podcast, and they say, like the podcast is, is really, it's very successful and very popular. But it's that way, you can, there's, there's probably a number of reasons. And I'm sure that people who are helped by it, we think other content is great, or Scott, you deliver it well, or anything like that. But, um, and that's not not not true. But part of the reason why it's successful is because I'm incredibly, incredibly, incredibly, I want to win, I am very competitive. And so I know I have a thing, like if I was the coach of a of the worst football team in the NFL, I'd still want to win. But I don't understand if we lost. But if I was the coach of the best team, and we didn't win, it would make me crazy. And like, I know, and I know this podcast is the is the best team in the NFL. And so I go out there with it every day with the intention of playing perfect football, running up the score, and making everybody else around me know that you can come and play with me if you want, but you're not gonna win. And like like that, that feeling is probably it's probably the aggression that my father pushed at me, like, be strong, don't back down. Like that kind of stuff. I've probably just translated into a modern world. And I'm using it in a modern world. And when I was younger, I can see where I would have just done what my dad did. Like I could see where I could have been like a yeller. And I did for a little while when my kids were really young. It was my first inclination. And like I said, Kelly's the one that was like, this isn't what we're doing. And I was like, and it took me a little bit, but I was like, okay, yeah, it makes sense. But like, the last time I raised my voice, I can't even remember what it was now.

Anonymous Female Speaker 1:12:07
Yeah, I am the same way. And for me, my inclination has never been to yell. And I kind of have always told, like, Pete, like, partners, or people I'm with, I can't, I cannot do yelling, and I cannot do swearing at me at people like those are things that I will I guess I if I was being released, it's probably technically like a trauma response, but I just won't, I can't deal with it. I won't put myself back in that situation. And so you know, and that's common, like when you you know, have had some abuse, there's, there's generally like, kind of two, you either will recreate it and, and that's not of any like fault of anyone's either this is just I think the human response. But you either this is what you've learned. And so you unintentionally even maybe you're no you're doing it and you hate it, you recreate it? Or I think sometimes people can, you know, somehow do the opposite. And I don't know what makes you one or the other of that in that group. Yeah, but there is something like I don't, I really don't think and then I have yelled at now, they are not my biological kids either. But they're here 50% of the time, and I've been in their life since they were really, really young. So we're very close. I'm very involved. But yeah, I just don't, I don't yell. But I remember that being just such a thing in my house that I hated. Yeah, that I think in some way it clicked that like, I, I don't even function. Well, if even if I'm the one who's yelling, I don't think I would function well in that house. It's interesting. I'm thankful. But that isn't a natural inclination of mine,

Scott Benner 1:13:50
you'd probably make yourself upset seriously, you'd be you'd probably be doing something uncontrollably and making yourself upset on top of it. It's funny, I have two younger brothers. And we all grew up in this. Well, I grew up I probably got the most of it. And then my father left when I was 13, which made my one brother eight, my other brother three, and then I basically raised them, you know, because my mom was at work. And like my middle brother is he's very emotional. He kind of and and reserved. And so if he gets upset, he kind of keeps it to himself. And my younger brother is does the like it listen if this is going wrong, like screw it, like just like he'll walk away from it kind of thing. Like you don't me like he won't get involved. And I don't know how it makes him feel. I was the one who fought back. But I think I think I fought back because I am adopted. So my, I think the way I think is different than the way that my family thinks. But I also felt protective of my mom who was clearly so yeah, she was clearly scared. And my brother and my brothers like I felt Yep, Like, you almost start acting like a human shield. Like for sure.

Anonymous Female Speaker 1:15:03
I think that's really common with oldest like that would be an oldest sibling trait in an abusive and my oldest sister was the same way I she would like, I remember both me and my other sister would be saying to my sister Stop, stop, just don't say anything else stop talking to them. I remember one time I saw she, she got up from the table, she threw a piece of pizza at him any, like, threw his chair back and was like going after real fast again, there. He didn't, like make contact with her. But I was just in disbelief that she did that. And I'm sure he was being really mean to her at the table. But she was that state, she kind of had to have the last word. She would, you know, jump in there and, and say things that I'm just sitting there going, it's true, but you're making him so much more angry. Shut up. Stop saying that stop doing that. But I think that was the same thing. It was her way of taking on the intensity of, you know, maybe protecting us. And then I think there's also that trait. When you're an oldest, you're kind of, in some ways, parental fide and you're used to telling other people what to do. So you have that like, mate, sometimes more of a little bit of like a No at all. Part of you,

Scott Benner 1:16:26
I tell you, for me, it also, I started seeing I was like I'm making more sense than they are. And so maybe I should be, maybe I should be like running the fact here. And it is a little like in that movie, too, where there's 10 people in a room and they've got to get away and they're all gonna die. And one guy's like, I'll run in the other direction and wave my hands over my head. They'll shoot me you guys can get away like it feels like that sometimes to like, you look over people and you're like, Listen, this is a mess isn't gonna get any better. At least if there's going to be shooting, maybe I can concentrate it over here on myself and save everybody else from it. But I don't think I saved everybody else from it. I just in that moment I might have but I wasn't with them constantly. I'm sure they got it.

Anonymous Female Speaker 1:17:08
Oh, yeah. There's there's no way that you could have you know, and that's also kind of a burden of the oldest is I think they feel like they they should maybe be able to do that or want to do that. And even if you're there all the time, you can't you can't shield all of that. Yeah, you know. So yeah, I think to just like going back to you said like, what is how is it affected me? I think the chapter I'm in now is just trying to figure out how to how to include people around me because I think I still feel very alone with my diabeetus. But at this point, I think that's pretty self inflicted, at least with my my current people like my my boyfriend and his kids. It's not self inflicted with my parents, that's still very much a, I remember when Dexcom like Cher came out. I had just mentioned to them when I was home, like if you guys ever wanted like you could see my blood sugars. And I hear people on here talk about like, adults who have people following their blood sugars. And that was such a foreign concept to me. And when I brought it up to my parents, they both instantly looked like a deer in headlights. And we're like, oh, no, oh, no, nope. We want nothing to do with that.

Scott Benner 1:18:30
You're standing there as an adult, basically, like a little kid going, Hey, if you want to prove that you love me. Yeah, you could. Yeah. And they're like, no, no, no, thank you.

Anonymous Female Speaker 1:18:38
Yep, it definitely reinforced like, okay, so you don't even want to be on there in case you know, I'm in another state. And you can see that my blood sugar's 30. And I haven't responded or done anything. And it stayed that way for a long time, you know, good to know. But like, I need to figure out to how to, I just don't even know where to start. Like, I also have pretty significant sleep apnea. And we've gone through these many treatments and things have not worked for various reasons. And so I'm very possibly going to have a surgery where they like move my jaw forward, because my airway is very small. It's like 20% of what it's supposed to be. And this surgery would be a really big deal with recovery. It would be six weeks on a liquid food diet. And I you know, I've listened to your episodes and Jenny's episodes about like, being in the hospital and dear Lord, do I have some, like er hospital experiences? I do not want to hand my diabeetus over to the doctors. But I'm also painfully aware that there is absolutely not there's no one in my life that would have the first clue with how to how to take my diabetes solver for a day or two or three. Now I know none of them would know how to work my pump, or, you know, what I would need. And again, some of that is was just the dynamic of my family of origin. And now it's like, I don't even I wouldn't even know where to start on how to like, you know, really let my boyfriend in on it. Or, and we've kind of tried a couple times and then he'll he just too is like I don't, it's, it's overwhelming. And I'm probably not explaining it in the best way. Because I don't have a lot of practice doing that. But I always just ended up having that same reaction of you know what, it's just easier if you do it. But I don't know what that would look like. And that makes me nervous of like, alright, what, what are those first five days Gonna, gonna look like? When you're

Scott Benner 1:20:53
gonna? They're gonna leave your blood sugar in the two or 300 It's in the hospital and just kind of keep you alive long enough. I mean, that's a since that seems like a really serious surgery. I mean, if you've got

Anonymous Female Speaker 1:21:04
it is. Yeah, they have to, you know, your your top jaw is attached to your skull. So if they're moving that forward, they're like cutting that off. And reattaching with hardware.

Scott Benner 1:21:20
Yeah, so. So if you're thinking of doing that, it sounds like you've tried a number of other things already to avoid. Oh, yeah,

Anonymous Female Speaker 1:21:26
yes. Yeah, I yeah, I've tried. Tried everything. And again, that's, that's to those, like, these kind of weird symptoms that follow me around, like, I've been just tired since day one, like, have probably high school, I could have slept anytime, anywhere. I always get my thyroid checked. I've listened to your episodes on that, too. And I really don't know, they'll everything always looks normal. But I know, that doesn't necessarily mean that it is either. So that's the other fear is, you know, maybe part of it isn't the sleep apnea. And what if I go through all of that, and it doesn't fix that? Well, tell me I'm still tired.

Scott Benner 1:22:07
Do you know what your TSH is?

Anonymous Female Speaker 1:22:10
Um, I did not off the top of my head. But I know it got it's been tested. And they tell

Scott Benner 1:22:17
you it's in range, quote within range. Don't do that. Go find out what it is. And if it's over to tell them you want to be treated for your thyroid symptoms. That's it. I don't care if your TSH if it's over two. Yeah, if it's over like to 2.1 right in there, then tell them look, I have a lot of thyroid issues. And because what I'm guessing is your thyroid is going to come back at like the TSH will be like four or five or something like that. And they're gonna say, well, that's in range, but it's not you needed under to to get rid of your symptoms, which by the way, could also be your joint pain. Yeah, seriously, like, that's a simple thing to check on. First, and a good way to get the doctor to kind of help you if they they're like, well, we don't treat, you know, we don't treat thyroid, if it's not blah, blah, blah, whatever they're gonna say, Yeah, say, Look, I have a lot here. I have a lot of thyroid issues. My TSH is over two. I've heard from a lot of people who you know, manage their thyroid well that do two or under is what you're shooting for without getting hyper. And so what's it going to hurt to give me some of this medication and see if my issues clear up? I guarantee you if you're if you're over to that, that's going to help you.

Anonymous Female Speaker 1:23:29
Okay, yeah, so I just found it. It's one. It's 1.01. Yeah, see? That's good. So that's pretty good.

Scott Benner 1:23:35
That's good. So maybe then the RA, maybe you have RA and that's part of like, you're sleeping like maybe you're not sleeping well. And I'm

Anonymous Female Speaker 1:23:42
not I'm not sleeping well, when I've done for sleep studies this year. And when I'm untreated, like I did an untreated one. And I I think my I woke up I had these like awakenings like 42 times an hour, and I never hit REM sleep. Once I had 0% REM sleep in like the seven hours I was asleep. So and then you know, we have the different treatments. But that that is the other thing is I do I feel like I've had a lot of other just like health issues. And that is something I feel like kind of insecure about and I've struggled and again, have this urge to ask for help, but at the same time have an urge to hide that because it means there's something wrong with me or I've done something wrong. Yeah, it's just created that that kind of double bind,

Scott Benner 1:24:35
what happens to you when you have that thought, as a human being but then you're also a therapist, and you recognize that that thought is not real? Like what would you tell us? What would you tell a patient if they said that to you?

Anonymous Female Speaker 1:24:50
Yeah, well I I'm so I specialize in a therapy called DBT dialectical behavior therapy. And there's like, there's deeper work and individual. And then there's this whole set of skills and I it's like a lifestyle and I use it all the time to the steal would technically be called opposite action like, and I it happens to me all the time where I'm aware, like I have my thoughts, they kind of check them around facts, do they fit the facts? Or are they effective, because sometimes your thought fits the facts, but it still is not, it's not an effective thing to meet your goal or to meet your needs. And then you have to, you know, you challenge that both behaviorally and cognitively. So when I noticed myself doing that, I very much try to, like, reach out and ask for for help. While also like validating those insecure thoughts and knowing it, so it's okay, that you need help. And like, I think I do have a lot of other health stuff, my body is constantly fighting to be an equilibrium where a lot of people's bodies are just there naturally. Yeah, that has to have some, some lasting, you know, effects. And so, you know, just kind of validating that, but just like any human, sometimes, you know, what you should do, and you're not always successful following Yeah, following through, you know, for sure,

Scott Benner 1:26:12
I mean, there's, that's not to say

Anonymous Female Speaker 1:26:13
I have 100% success rate. But that's the goal. Yeah, and I try to do,

Scott Benner 1:26:20
there's the truth of the matter and what you're able to accomplish. I mean, you know, if everybody could just take the truth of the matter and march forward with it, then we'd all you know, be at the right, you know, body mass index, and we'd all be getting the right amount of exercise, and nobody would eat a burrito and like, you know, the whole thing. So yeah, but it must be a little more frustrating, when it's within your professional realm. To have a thought that you know, to yourself, you can say, this is not a real thought I shouldn't be doing like this is this as a fragment a leftover thing from how I was raised or something I experienced. And if I could just drop it on the floor and leave it there, I'd leap forward. Like, it must be different to experience it, and know it and not be able to do it, then it is for the regular, like a layman to experience it not know what's happening and just think this is life.

Anonymous Female Speaker 1:27:13
Sure, yeah. I think I think that's definitely true. Sometimes, I also think that because I've done my own therapy, and I'm, I'm a therapist that I also kind of am, um, you know, a little bit maybe I try to be more skilled in like, also just like self compassion and kind of accepting, accepting my humanity and pause. And so you're totally right, I have absolutely had Fatah frustrating, like, you know what to do, but you could, why are you just doing it. But I would also say that there's just also an awareness of like, that. It's okay. And telling yourself that or being frustrated or beating yourself down is you just kind of more tapping into your mom or dad's voice of telling you, you screwed up again. And that's not going to help like, you didn't screw up, you're human. And you're not going to, you're not going to be perfect, like stop even chasing that. You're setting yourself up for failure here.

Scott Benner 1:28:15
It's so crazy. How, how differently, you can put people in the same situation and how differently they come out of it. I mean, like, I'm not, I'm nowhere near perfect. And I'm sure I have impacts from how I was raised that are not healthy for me. But overall, I do think that part of it turned me into a fighter. And and how do you get lucky like that? How do you get turned into a fighter instead of a person who cowers or Oh, yeah, you know, it's just it seems so random. It's not it's nothing like I did on purpose. For certain. It's just my natural response is like, I don't know if you've ever I've told this story on the podcast before we're my dad just wanted me to agree with him about something like sort of your sister in the pizza. Oh, yep. Yes. And I just remember Yeah, and I didn't give in and to the point where I was like, I'm gonna take a beating here, but I'm still right. Like, what? Why would I just not do what your sister like what you were telling your sister like, just stop? Like, why didn't I just look at him and go, Hey, you know what, man? I thought it over. And you're 100% Right. Like, that seems to be what you want to hear right now. So like, let me give it to you. And there are also people who would have fought back like I did, but then turned into their father. Like it's also much dumb luck if I don't meet Kelly if like, things don't happen if I'm not able to kind of like elevate my job situation as I go on. Like, I could easily be a guy working in a shop. I don't know if I've if people really pay attention. I mean, I talk a lot. So it's hard to it's hard to remember everything. But it's Kelly, recognizing who I was beyond my circumstances, that really that really saved my life.

Anonymous Female Speaker 1:30:00
Yeah, yeah. And I don't think I can say, I can't say the the exact same for my partner especially like I just he, we didn't meet until a little till later. But my partner is also a therapist. And so he's certainly, like I did a ton of therapy in college. That was kind of after like the peak of my eating disorder. And that really just, I had to kind of get through that. And that, interestingly, is that really, is mom's stuff tensed up, we won't even go into that. But well, that's a whole nother thing. But he, I mean, I, yes, we will. He can kind of speak that language with me. And, and, you know, again, just help to kind of, it's not about blaming or but just seeing things kind of clearly, okay, when your mom or dad does this that makes you feel like you should do this. But how does that line up for you? Do you want to do that or not?

Scott Benner 1:30:56
Did your mom call you fat? Or did she infer that you didn't want to be? Or like,

Anonymous Female Speaker 1:31:02
oh, yeah, no, what my mom, my mama. So I was diagnosed in second grade. And I was real thin, because I probably been high for a very long time. And if the Well, again, this is another adult moment that I look back, and I'm like, dear Lord, I remember it was about third grade, when my mom told me that we needed to watch what I ate, because I had gained a lot of weight because I was on insulin, and my blood sugar was I wasn't high, you know, so I am sure some of it was just normal. And also, I was kind of having to snack a lot, because we were trying to figure out, I went low, like all the time at school. And in my mind up until a couple of years ago, on one of our books is the picture of me from second grade when I fainted. And then my third grade picture and in my mind in third grade I am obese. Looking at the picture now after like a several year break. I am a normal kid, like I am by no means obese. Yeah, but in in my mind, I was I am I am significantly again, my if other people around me would know. And they'd probably they would challenge the significantly but like I am, I'm bigger than my mom or my sisters by quite a bit. And that they've, I would say all had eating stuff. And yeah, that that was a very common thread was just talking about my weight. You know what I'm eating? Do I need that? You know, maybe it's because of the diabeetus but it was very focused on what what you look like and I never I was always very pretty obviously the one missing the mark,

Scott Benner 1:32:53
I'll tell you you paint Harrison, you've painted a patient today of of humanity that doesn't really deserve to exist.

Anonymous Female Speaker 1:33:02
Thing is I love my family and you know, met them and came in you were there. They have wonderful qualities too. And, and that was stuff put on my mom by her mom. You know, I'm very aware of that, because I got it from that Grandma too. But we didn't live very close to that grandma, but that grandma would openly you know, if you went in to get a cookie, she would say are you should do really think you need that. Are you supposed to be eating that? Well, that's it all that came, you know,

Scott Benner 1:33:32
here's the path as far as I'm concerned, the average IQ in society's got to go up to about 110 Maybe 115. Once that happens, and we can burn out two generations of terrible people. I think we're going to be on our way. I think maybe maybe just another 150 years.

Anonymous Female Speaker 1:33:50
technology and social media doesn't take us down first. I can get with you. That's a question that I don't I don't know if we know what factor that has to play yet.

Scott Benner 1:34:03
It's going to it's going to backfire. And I'll tell you why. No, I and I've said this in the blogosphere. I'm not embarrassed to say this. In a very short amount of time. Social media has. What's the word I'm looking for? Has dulled me to sexuality. Like when I was a kid, oh yeah, here's what I mean by that when I was 15 If any girl I don't even care if I would have found her attractive or not like she in my personal preference or not, would have stood and made a video in a T shirt without a bra bouncing up and down and showed it to me. I would have been like the world is a perfect place i In this video we're gonna go off and live happily together. Now. This will be enough for me. And and instead it's so pervasive at this point. i It's interesting. It's having the opposite effect. I'm not looking at women in the sexual way that I used to all the time. Like they it's been put in my face so much. I don't care about it. Yeah, you're like, desensitized, desensitized to it at all, like something that, like something that would have just made me in the past be like, Oh my God, how have I been so lucky to be in the presence of this situation? Now I just I see it, and it's not constant. But like, when I see it, I'm like, I don't even care. You ruined boobs, for me is how it feels. Yeah, but um,

Anonymous Female Speaker 1:35:31
but at the same time, I think the double blind in that is that, like, having so much social media for many, many people has also fueled this, like, extreme seeking of a need for external validation. But yet you're describing what I think is very true that a lot of people like you, can't you we keep having to up the ante to even get any validation, because people are desensitizing to it. But we're also like seeking it and feeling like we're not okay, unless you have enough likes, or, you know, gone viral or whatever else, or use filters to make sure our pictures are, you know, only putting off that this certain version of ourself. And so, I think it's, it's hard because there's so much of it, that you're, you're probably not going to get a lot of it. Or if you get it, it doesn't have much of an impact anymore. But yet, it's kind of like a drug that first Hi, everybody still or not everybody, like I chase that social media. Yeah, but a lot of people want it, they chase it and can't really get it. You know,

Scott Benner 1:36:36
I'm gonna tell you for the life of me, what I really believe is, this is a positive thing. But it's going to take so long, I'm not going to say it. But But what I mean is, I think somehow this is going to level men and women out like, you know how we're always. I mean, listen, I don't think this is like a great like objectifying women and like that kind of stuff. I think it's going to level it out. I think there's going to be another generation of men that comes along. That's like, Yeah, I saw that. I'm good. Like, do you know what I mean? Like, and they're not going to get as like, as excited as like a 1983. Scott would have been, we were just like, wow, what have I done? Like, like, am I being that would

Anonymous Female Speaker 1:37:15
be amazing. And I hope that you are right. I don't I don't know if you are if we're just gonna keep seeking to then up the ante. But I mean, that's a very positive outlook on it, and I might try to adopt it.

Scott Benner 1:37:33
It's a longer look, and I'm not going to live long enough to say it. But yeah, I also don't believe I don't believe that every little girl is going to grow up to be on only fans one day. Like, I don't I don't think that either. And it's tough because right now, there are some like bombastic stories of that girl from the Dr. Phil Show. I don't know her name. But you remember she was on doc, she became very famous on Dr. Phil for like snapping back at somebody in the audience and saying, like, meet me outside or something like that. What was what did she say? Do you want to use? I

Anonymous Female Speaker 1:38:07
have no idea.

Scott Benner 1:38:09
Okay, don't somebody I'm going to figure this out. So I think she's on Dr. Phil. If I'm not mistaken, somebody in the audience like her mom's trying to get she's out of control her mom's I mean, while if you're on Dr. Phil, we're all out of control. But like, you know, she's she's out of control. And I guess somebody in the audience pushes back at her. And she stands up. And basically, in the vernacular of when I was growing up, offers her out this says to her, why don't we go outside and fight? Right. And she used as a term, I don't know what it was meet me outside or something. And it becomes incredibly like in the zeitgeist. And she becomes famous for it to the point where I think she made a song, like some producer, like, you know, came in and was like, like, let's use your sound clip. Make a Song of it? Well, now she's I don't know what she's doing. I've never I want to be clear, I've never seen only fans, but she's on only fans doing something sexual. I don't know, to what level but there are reports that reports from her, like, she just brought out her receipts basically, she made $52 million doing it. And that makes that can take some people and go oh, geez for $52 million. Like, I guess I do it to like, and people start thinking about why, but I do believe that most people wouldn't. And I don't and by the way, I don't think that like I'm not coming down on those people. I don't even think like, you know, there's I think there are people who need pornography and and there are people who want to, to produce it and I don't care what people do. I mean, if you've listened this long enough, I don't care what you do. You should do whatever you want to do. But yeah, but I do think that like on that other level where we're talking about like it's just desensitized as the right word, like, you're just you're gonna use this thing so many times. It's not not going to have its power anymore. And I don't know if that doesn't take us in a better direction or not. I'm interested. You know, I wish I can live another 100 years. I'd like to find out if you know, yeah, if young boys just one day I'll be like, yeah, that's okay. Like, I mean, I love you. And I think you're pretty and all and you know, in our personal life, that's lovely. But I don't I don't need this from everybody anymore. I don't or maybe I'm just old. You know what I mean? Like, I have no idea like, maybe I aged past my sexual awakening.

Anonymous Female Speaker 1:40:33
Anyway, so I definitely think there's something to it. I just don't I don't know about the outcome. But because I don't know, as I said, I will maybe choose to go down your your positive route, because I don't know what the outcome will be. And that would be great. If it did. Did even half of that.

Scott Benner 1:40:54
I have to just say apparently was Catch me outside. She does Catch me outside. How about that? Like that? Do you remember that? No, no, I

Anonymous Female Speaker 1:41:06
don't. Okay,

Scott Benner 1:41:07
I'm now learning more. She's now goes by the name. Bad Baby. But it's BH ad BHABIE. She's the she's the Kashmir Kashmir outside girl. She has been in rehab already for different substance abuses. And then there's this thing from very recently where she put out as she she was part of an article somewhere and she said I made $50 million. And please don't call me the Cash Me Outside girl. Like so. She's not even 20 years old yet. Wow. And she has $52 million, or whatever from I'm assuming. I don't know what but I don't think people run to give you money if you're if you're dressed. And on the internet on only fans. Yeah, I don't

Anonymous Female Speaker 1:41:55
I honestly don't really know. Only fans works. Obviously, certainly can.

Scott Benner 1:42:02
Yeah, you can do it anything you want with it. But I think that what brings in? Yeah, it's used as private porn, basically, like there's a person you are you You probably attach your credit card to it and pay them something monthly, and it gives you access to a page that other people can't get to. So, but the point is, I don't know. I don't know what the point is. We're so far away from it. Now. Here's the point. Here's the point. Everybody's a mess on some level. And the real goal is like for you tell me again, you're 33? Yeah, you have plenty of time to leave this behind you still? Do you think you can?

Anonymous Female Speaker 1:42:44
I'm about? I don't know how to answer that. Do I think I can leave it 100% behind me? Probably not. I just think that change is really hard for humans, you know, and I think even in therapy, like, it takes a long time. If you if you think that where I am now, or some of these damages, or whatever hurts, you know, took 25 years to create. Why would I ever expect in a year to turn flip it all over? But do I think I can, you know, decrease it or leave? You know, 5060, maybe even 70% behind? Yeah, and that's the goal. I also don't, I don't, you know, I don't want it to be necessarily like, gone gone. Because it's also a big part of who I am. You know, I think part of like, knowing about, as you said, like your mess, or having some of that with you is kind of formative but you certainly want to be more in control of it than it is of you. You know, or you're just following it by default. Versus like, you know, carrying it with you so that you can use it for perspective as needed. But also, you can not follow it when that's not going to serve you well. You know, yeah, I leave it behind when that's helpful.

Scott Benner 1:44:12
I take your point like maybe the you don't want to forget who you are, how you got to where you are, because there's so much about you, that's obviously really positive and valuable, and it's who you are on top of all that. But but you don't want to maybe I shouldn't have said left that behind but maybe like not be burdened by it as much. Yeah,

Anonymous Female Speaker 1:44:30
yeah. Or, like controlled by it or not even aware that I'm doing, you know, playing into the same patterns or whatnot like absolutely that that I want to, I think I already have and definitely plan to continue to work on just being able to like, notice it's there and, you know, manage it as effectively as as possible.

Scott Benner 1:44:55
Yeah, well, that's I guess that's the goal. So do you see a therapist I Some it's not your husband right?

Anonymous Female Speaker 1:45:04
Yeah, boyfriend. Yeah, I don't I don't see a therapist right now. But I have it many different. Well, not many, like, I guess, I've probably gone to therapy for, oh, two years, maybe three different times, you know. And some of that more like, spaced out than others. And it wasn't always like weekly. But I Yeah, I'm a very firm, I think literally everyone, whether you have a clinical diagnosis or not, it's kind of just about getting to know yourself. And yeah, your family, what drives you? Make sure you're you're, you know, doing stuff for you and not, not other people. I think that's one of the biggest things is when we were not even necessarily sure if we're kind of living for our own values, or if that's what we think our value should be. Because mom or dad about thought that was really important, or society does or whatever, I don't know. So I don't even think it always has to be to solve issues, but it can just be about, like self reflection and, and awareness.

Scott Benner 1:46:11
I've always, I've often thought that being adopted helped me. Because as a young person, like a really young person, I recognized enough difference between me and my family, that I thought like, oh, like they believe things because they believe them. I don't have I don't have to believe that if I don't want to. Yeah, and yeah, that's really nice. I mean, I can't believe I'm saying this, it was great not having parents that I felt like, like that thing I explained earlier. Like, this is the world and this is how it goes. Because this is where I was plopped down when I became conscious. And so and that's all we all do. Like, it's, you know, I mean, people make the comment the point all the time, and nobody can understand it. But I mean, if you take a baby born to a racist family, and pick it up and drop it in a family who's got no racism and law, you're gonna raise a baby, it's not racist, like for you know, what I mean, for the most part, you're gonna have that opportunity. You are, you are largely, you know, people say, is that nature or nurture? Well, it's both your wiring works in a certain way. And you're being nurtured in that direction as well, if you take me out of it, and at least I'm not being nurtured in that direction, then maybe my wirings got a chance to see what it thinks makes sense. It's the, you know, I've said this before, but as I was growing up in my teens and my early 20s, I would look at the people around me. And, and not not like idolize them or mimic them. But like, there was a an older man that I worked with. And he had this certain way about him. And I always used to think like, he's a kind guy, that's good. Like, like that. That's it, that's a thing worth thinking about adding to myself. And then there was a guy who had a great sense of humor, but he wasn't as crass as I was. And I thought, okay, like, See, he's still funny, but it's not, it's not over the top. And there were hard working guys that I worked with. And there were nurturing people that I worked with. And I was almost able to kind of like, like, because in the end, your parents are just like, the grocery store of ideas, and you shop from it. Right? You go. Like, I like the way my mom does this. Um, when I feel that way, I might lean into that a little bit. I don't like the way my dad does this. So when I feel myself going that way, I'm going to try not to lean into it. I just use the bigger grocery store. I wasn't stuck with two people. Not that, by the way, I didn't take things from my parents who raised me to theirs. You know, like a lot of great about them. But I just had more opportunities. And I'm sure people do that with like, family, friends and, you know, parents of their friends and stuff like that. But I was doing it consciously. Like I remember doing it cost. Yeah.

Anonymous Female Speaker 1:48:49
That's it. Yeah. Well, and I think the other piece is you have to know that like you have permission to not buy the whole grocery store. No, I don't have to take it. I remember someone said my one of I think it was my therapist in college that said, like, so here's, here's the deal. Like, we all all of our parents give us some good stuff, and they give us some bad stuff. And you get to decide what you want to continue to, like believe in or carry with you or not

Scott Benner 1:49:17
just to have that autonomy to say I don't believe in that. Yes,

Anonymous Female Speaker 1:49:20
yeah. Yep. And at that time, you know, I think that was pretty new to me, like, oh, I don't have to think that what I look like is the main source of my value. That's, that cannot be right. That's insane. I don't know. That's not and of course, now. Thank goodness, I've like really embraced that. But at the time, that was, you know, way outside the box. So I think you have to have, you know, the permission or awareness to that too. It's interesting about what you said, and I can totally see that about your adoption. I've sometimes felt that way with my diabeetus as much as I As you know, sometimes hate it and wish I didn't have it. I've, I think that one of the reasons I've been able to get a little bit more distance from my family is probably because of the diabeetus. Because in some ways, I was kind of like a burden. And they didn't have the tools to deal with it in a super effective way. It created a little it created more distance, and they didn't deal with me as much. And so I didn't get as much I definitely got stuff, and I got some stuff that my sisters didn't get. But I wondered a lot. And I definitely think there's something to that it created some space, where there was enough that they didn't really want to have to deal with that, that they I didn't get as much of, of some of that stuff. Yeah, oh, I can't, when I've watched my I've watched my sisters, you know, struggle more. And in other ways. It's interesting, my my oldest sister, who would fight back and got the most years with my dad, you know, not being sober, and just hated and would be so openly, you know, critical of his drinking, has a horrible substance use addiction now that she just can't get out of it's much worse than my dad's. And it's much bigger than alcohol. And it's heartbreaking and scary. But I don't, you know, she didn't, she was really steeped in that. And then, you know, I think she took on some of the intensity as that oldest, oldest sibling often does. But I think that in some ways, the diabeetus kind of separated me and made me an outsider a little bit. And I think it's one of the things that has allowed me to differentiate in the ways that I have,

Scott Benner 1:51:54
that's an amazing perspective, that you know, what, what you look at as, like people not caring about you, because your medical needs make you more difficult to them. As hard as hard as that is to hear and probably as hard as it is to live with. It also created a enough space for you, where they weren't trying to suck you back into their gravity. And you were able to just go like, you know, it is okay to be away from these people. They're not really helping me anyway. Like, it's like, you know what I mean? Like, it's just enough, right? Like, they just turned out absolutely just enough,

Anonymous Female Speaker 1:52:25
eventually, like, this is still something I will totally trip up on. But I trip on a trip on it a lot less often. But it eventually made me also stopped, stop begging to be in the orbit, you know, eventually I found out, you know, you're gonna keep getting hurt, if you kind of ask for them to care, but they, there's too much. And so, you know, do that less. I think we always want approval and care. And so like I said, I think that's something I will still trip up on and think, Well, maybe I can tell him about this. And they'll react differently. And most of the time I get a pretty similar reaction. And then I think why would you react that way, and I have to process it. But it's yeah, not only are they not, you know, kind of pulling me back in because that's bringing stress into their orbit. But I'm also not constantly seeking to get in it. Because I know that the orbit kind of ends up hurting me even though I also know that there's a lot of love in that orbit. And if I just go into it in a very boundaried way I can experience more of that and less of the unintentional

Scott Benner 1:53:32
this this boundary it also mean, understanding who they are not asking more of them than they have.

Anonymous Female Speaker 1:53:39
Yes, okay. Yep. Absolutely. Yeah. And no, kind of knowing what, that's what I mean, when I say like seeing them clearly kind of knowing what they're capable of what they aren't, what are my bottom lines, because just because they're not capable doesn't mean that I should settle on everything. There are some limits that I just Alright, well, then I don't, I will not like you don't have the right to this type of information anymore. Because I'm not going to allow myself to get hurt by that. But this is a place where we can connect and it's like safe, and I will choose to connect that way instead. You know, so like you you were saying it quite well earlier when you just talked about like, I talk about trying to understand parents a lot and it's not ever that I'm trying to say that everything they did was okay. Like again, no parent is perfect and cluding myself and I'm gonna give my kids some damage, I'm sure. But all we can do is our best. It's not ever about saying that if I understand like my dad's childhood that makes everything he did okay, but at least I can understand that it's wasn't about me in it, and it also wasn't about him trying to do that. It was about this was a situation that was kind of reIated him, and he's doing the best that he can. And sometimes that wasn't good enough. And it's okay that I have heard around that. But it wasn't that he didn't, that he purposefully tried to just do that, to me. That was just that was, you know, that makes sense that he did that. It doesn't make it okay. But it helps me to understand it. And and not a way where I blame myself.

Scott Benner 1:55:23
Yeah, it's, you know, I had to do that it took me a while because my father left on my birthday. And that felt personal, even, even at 13 years old. I was like, Ah, this can't be. Right. Yeah. So, but still, it's still meaningless. Like, I think I think that I mean, I don't know, right. But I challenged my dad in a way that he wasn't expecting, and he wasn't equipped to fight back with. And I mean, if he did that on purpose or not, it felt on purpose. And then, but it took me it took me years, but it took me years to realize what you just said, like, it doesn't matter. Like it really whether he felt that way or not. I was I was 13. Like, I didn't do anything to him. You don't I mean, like, I was just living my life trying to be, you know, trying to get through. Yeah. And so once you just let that go, there, it's funny. It's funny how much talk therapy can help with that, too. I don't need I don't need therapy, I have this podcast, but. But just talking things through and saying them out loud, as crazy as it sounds. And I'll say this over and over again, forever. Like you have these problems, these things that are twisted in the inner wound into your soul in your heart in your brain. And it feels like well, how would I ever separate these things so that I can I can be free of them? And I think sometimes the truth is, you just have to say them out loud. And as crazy as it sounds, it sort of loses its power. It's like saying Voldemort, you know what I mean? Like, they're the biggest problem they had in the in the Harry Potter films, if I, if I can just mix reality with fiction is that they gave the guy the power by being afraid of him. And once once one guy stood up and was like, I don't care, I'm gonna say his name. Like, it's the beginning of the end right there. Like, you just have to sort of just name the thing and say it out. Yeah. Yeah.

Anonymous Female Speaker 1:57:17
Well, and you have to get it out there with some different sounding boards, because like when it's just in your head, it's being validated by all the stuff that created the thought to begin with. But it's when you get out and you start to realize like, oh, so someone just had a different reaction to that. I guess not everybody's family did that. You know, I think as humans, we're very used to like, we just kind of assume that everyone's thinking or experiencing a somewhat similar thing. We're not super comfortable with change or difference. But but then when we talk out loud, it kind of forces us to see that that either doesn't sound right, or someone had a response that was so different. And well, how is their response so different than mine, I thought everyone would think this way. Well, their parents taught them this, it just helps it, that's the only way to see it. You know, and that's so hard about your dad, leaving on your, on your birthday. And I also just want to say like, so typical and age appropriate for you. Even if it wasn't your birthday? That just adds a level to it. But take that on as your own. Because until we're like 22, really, we're still we're very ego focused, like we're always thinking in some way, you know about, it's about me, yeah, other people are thinking about me, what are they judging about me? What, you know, if that's just a very normal way to think we don't have the ability to truly like, step outside and 100% look at someone else's perspective, especially first, usually. And so you know, that's why so many kids feel like the divorce is their fault. You know, abuse is their fault. It's just at that point, that's like, our developmental brain space where, you know, just as I thought that some of the diabetes stuff was my fault, or, you know, I better hide this because you obviously did something wrong to make it this way. You know,

Scott Benner 1:59:09
when you stop and think about it, my dad was a, he was a simple guy, right? He grew up on a farm. He didn't go to college, he didn't spend any time self reflecting. He probably didn't leave on my birthday on purpose. It was probably just circumstances. And if I look back for hours before he left, we were traveling somewhere together. And he goes, Hey, it's your birthday. And I was like, yeah. And he goes, Oh, what do you want? And I picked something that was like in my world. I said, Oh, I'd love to stop at this computer store and get this thing. And it was like $99. And I'm telling you in a million years, nobody in my house got $100 gift ever. You know what I mean? Sure. And my dad's like, this is really what you want as a gift. And he pulled out a credit card and he bought it and gave it to me. And I look back now and I think oh god he knew he was Gonna leave. Like he knew, like it was all planned out already like, but. So like when I can really as an adult look back on it. I think if he's trying to hurt me, he wouldn't have bought me a big gift before he did it. And I'm like, Oh, this had nothing to do with me. But like, to your point, everything feels like it's about you, especially when you're younger. And so anyway, you know, this just was random. He wasn't even, like, thoughtful enough to think, Oh, I am gonna leave but let's not do it on Scott's birthday. Like he just he wasn't that well thought out. You know? I mean, like, I don't think he was well thought and enough out to hurt somebody on purpose. To be perfectly honest with you. It's it's oh my god, we can talk about this forever. I gotta let you go. He's doing like two hours. Yeah, two hours. I don't know if this is the longest one ever. But we got to be right in the ballpark. So I need to ask you one question before we go. Because I want to use the right phrasing. At some point, this is going to come out it's going to be called after dark colon something. What should it be called?

Anonymous Female Speaker 2:01:03
Oh, God, I hate this question. You I think you're so much more.

Scott Benner 2:01:09
No, but what did we talk about today? If you had to boil it down?

Anonymous Female Speaker 2:01:12
Oh, you mean okay. So now not one of your clever, clever. No, no, you

Scott Benner 2:01:16
don't have to? Yeah, they know. Okay, I can Yeah, what is? Well, I'm not that easy. All you people are like Scott's titles don't tell me what's not. It's not that easy. And so like, is this? It's is it childhood trauma? Is it? Is it a child of like alcoholism? Like, what's the core of your story that I'm asking you to tell me what your origin is?

Anonymous Female Speaker 2:01:48
Yeah, this is this isn't worded well, but I'm trying to think of a better

Scott Benner 2:01:54
workshop. I think

Anonymous Female Speaker 2:01:56
it's kind of like growing up with like, diabeetus without enough like help or support or, or in a household without like, the tools to deal with it. Again, it needs to be way shorter. But to me, that's how I would summarize it is just that I did not get enough help.

Scott Benner 2:02:17
What if I call after dark? unsupported?

Anonymous Female Speaker 2:02:21
Perfect. Well, I think that's great. All right.

Scott Benner 2:02:24
Because I yeah, I you know, people that it started out where people were like, you know, if you made the title, something that I knew was going on, and I would tell them, like, I don't know what we taught. I mean, it's an hour, you're talking about a number of things like, I can't, you know, like, I don't know what you talked

Anonymous Female Speaker 2:02:39
about so many things outside of my unsupported diabetic childhood, you know, and that's one of the things I love about the podcast. And I always chuckle at the titles, so just just not that that has to count for anything by you do.

Scott Benner 2:02:55
Did you? Did you catch chicken thighs last week?

Anonymous Female Speaker 2:02:58
I did. I had, like I said, I'm like two months behind. So I haven't seen the most recent but I will I'm sure I will again when I get to.

Scott Benner 2:03:08
I appreciate that very much. All right. I really thank you so much for doing this. Hold on one second for me. Okay. Okay. A huge thank you to one of today's sponsors, G voc glucagon, find out more about Chivo Capo pen at G voc glucagon.com. Ford slash juicebox. you spell that GVOKEGLUC AG o n.com. Forward slash juice box. I also want to thank us Med and remind you that you can get started today by calling 888-721-1514 or going to the link us med.com forward slash juice box. Thank you so much for listening. I really appreciate it. I'll be back again very soon with another episode of The Juicebox Podcast. Don't forget you can save 10% off your first month of therapy with better help with my link better help.com forward slash juice box and you can save 35% off your entire order of sheets bedding towels, sweat pants, all the great stuff they have at cozy earth.com By using the offer code juice box at checkout. And if you're looking for a great community around diabetes, head over to the private Facebook group Juicebox Podcast type one diabetes now has 36,000 members in it. All it's missing is you