Scott Benner 7/19/22 Scott Benner 7/19/22

#720 Magical Thinking

Erika is a licensed marriage and family therapist who herself has had Type 1 diabetes for over 30 years and who specializes in working with people with diabetes and their families and caregivers—from those newly diagnosed to those experiencing it for decades. She and Scott discuss Magical Thinking, Cognitive Dissonance and the Other Choice Myth.

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DISCLAIMER: This text is the output of AI based transcribing from an audio recording. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors and should not be treated as an authoritative record. Nothing that you read here constitutes advice medical or otherwise. Always consult with a healthcare professional before making changes to a healthcare plan.

Scott Benner 0:00
Hello friends and welcome to episode 720 of the Juicebox Podcast

Erica Forsythe is back today, you know Erica, she is the licensed marriage and family therapist who also has type one diabetes. Today Eric and I are going to be discussing a few ideas ranging from I don't want to tell you, I tell you, you're gonna think they're boring and you're not going to listen, but it's a great, I'll tell you anyway, I trust you, you'll listen. We're gonna go over magical thinking, cognitive dissonance, and choice myth. There are ways that your brain works that you might not be aware of, and it impacts how you think about things like diabetes or anything really. While you're listening. Please remember that nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise, always consult a physician before making any changes to your healthcare plan, or becoming bold with insulin. If you have type one diabetes, and you're a US resident, or are the caregiver of someone with type one, I would like to ask you to go to T one day exchange.org Ford slash juice box, join the registry, fill out the survey. When you're done, you will benefit people living with type one diabetes and support the Juicebox Podcast p one D exchange.org. Forward slash juice box. Today's episode of The Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by us med. Go now to us med.com Ford slash juice box or call 888-721-1514 When you do that, you'll be getting a free benefits check to see if you can get started with us med this show is sponsored today by the glucagon that my daughter carries. G voc hypo Penn. Find out more at G voc glucagon.com. Forward slash juicebox. If you're in California and in search of a therapist, check out Erica forsyth.com

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 2:10
Good morning I'm spending to hear your voice and talk and connect.

Scott Benner 2:14
Yeah, I'm happy to hear from you again. And and I'm happy you're getting your needs taken care of too.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 2:19
I you know, it was such a hard you know, it's I realize it's never never a good time to have knee surgery. And it's funny that you thinking about you know, the another choice myth that you had mentioned, I'm like, Oh my gosh, I've been living in that zone of well, I know everything now but should I push it off to winter break when there's not as much going on? And you know, like, I'm gonna miss this, this and this if I do it now like the conference, but I don't know what I'm gonna miss and then winter break, you know, so

Scott Benner 2:50
there's no good time.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 2:53
I know. I knew you just had your you had a meniscus

Scott Benner 2:56
repair. Yes. So and we're recording to see, you know, that's okay. But yes, so I just woke up one day, and it felt like someone hit me on the inside of my knee with a hammer. And I was like, and my knees had been like creaky and clicky for years. So I tried for a month to kind of rehab it on my own. And I was like, this is going nowhere. I wore a brace. And then the brace started to take the pain away. And I was like, oh, there's some instability in there somewhere. I went to my guy who fixed my shoulder. And he just, it's funny. They, they know what they're doing. He's like, grabs, it moves around a little bit. He goes, Yeah, he goes, you got a meniscus tear. Is that what you learned in college? That's amazing. You know, because it took him like four, four seconds, and I guess we'll have to verify it with an MRI. So I went and did the MRI. And he's like, yeah, it definitely is. Don't worry. He's like, we're just gonna poke two holes. He goes, I'll be in another 2025 minutes. I'm gonna clean it up for you. It's gonna be great. And he's like, You're too old to fix it. I was like, well, that doesn't sound exciting. What do you mean, you can't fix it? And he goes, Yeah, we can't fix it. We're just cleaning it up. And he goes, but I don't see any arthritis. He's like, this is great. Real super easy. So I go in, I get the Jackson juice. I mean, gone out. And next thing I know, he's standing over me. When grade Scott. There was some arthritis in there. We'll talk about the appointment tomorrow. And then he just walks away. And I'm like, wait, what? Yeah, guy in the office three weeks ago said that there was not going to be a problem like this. So it turns out the interior part of my knee is just was like arthritis, and the tear in the meniscus, which was worse than he thought it was, by the way. And then the he goes because the outside of your knees like looks like you're 20 years old. It's like I'm not covered by anything you're saying. You know, and then they after the surgery says so you're probably gonna need a knee replacement 510 years. And then I go through the rehab and everything and I say Do you really think I'm gonna need a replacement in five or 10 years and he goes, maybe not. And I'm like, What do you kind of just say the First thing that comes to your mind, like, you know, like, she goes out, there's no way to know. And I was like, six weeks ago, you were like, definitely five to 10 years. And now there's no way to know. And he said, he pulls up his pant leg and he's got ice on his knee. He goes, I just got mine done yesterday. Like,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 5:16
oh, my gosh,

Scott Benner 5:17
I'm like, did your need and he was my partner. And I was like, should I have gone to him? He's the guy you went to, you know? Anyway, it just, but it was to be perfectly honest. I mean, the rehab from it took, I was on my feet in a couple of days, no problem. And I don't think I use the crutch for more than, like, 36 hours, and even that I was kind of pretending to use it. The rehab was easy, and it feels 1,000,000% Better now. So I don't know how it's gonna last year, obviously, in a different situation, though.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 5:48
Yes, yes, I'm at full knee replacement. But, and that's a whole long story, too. But I'm glad to hear that your rehab has. Truly Yeah. And I think they can't predict you know it because they don't know how you wear and tear you put on your knee. Really?

Scott Benner 6:04
Well. I was gonna say you were an athlete in college, right?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 6:08
I played volleyball for 20 plus years, I did not have any known injuries from playing volleyball, but then got into hot yoga and had a meniscus tear about 10 to 11 years ago.

Scott Benner 6:24
Interesting. That's interesting. Okay, so anyway, so we were looking for something to talk about today. And because of your injury, and we're going to be you know, there's gonna be a little gap in time between I see you I didn't want to start on the series that we're thinking about. Yeah. Because there would have been weird to start it and stop it and start it again. Yes. So I sent you some ideas that I find interesting that I don't particularly understand as much as I'd like to. You okay, talking about this stuff?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 6:51
I am? I am. Yes, they're Yeah, they can be kind of challenging concepts to fully understand. But I think they're really important to know and talk about, let's give

Scott Benner 6:59
it a shot. Do you have any particular order you care that these happened in or No,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 7:03
no, I think the order that you wrote down, or however, whatever comes to mind first.

Scott Benner 7:07
Okay. All right. So I started with the idea of Magical Thinking. Yes. Right. And it's funny when I, when I think about it, I just think it's something that people have an idea about, or thought about, etc, then they just think there's some sort of, like, causal effect between how they think, and what happens. Is that a, is that basically, right?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 7:34
Yes, yes. And I think it could, there are varying levels and degrees of house like either serious or connected, you are two that that causal link. And I think it's often helpful to talk to explain it with examples. But I think that definition is good that your your beliefs, your ideas, your actions, your internal world can somehow influence or affect the events of your environment, or the the, your material world,

Scott Benner 8:06
right, so that they use the term magical thinking, but it's also it's kind of superstition to.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 8:13
Yeah, yeah.

Scott Benner 8:14
So what are examples you have that that could paint a picture for people,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 8:19
I think one of the easiest that we often believe in childhood or you know, making a wish, when you blow out your birthday candles, that that might come true, or throwing coins into a fountain, that and making a wish, whereas you throw the coin, a fountain, those are maybe like positive hopeful ones, there could be either negative superstitions, like stepping on a crack or having a black cat cross your path or walking under a ladder, those might, then you might believe that that's going to cause bad luck to happen. Those are kind of childhood superstitions, or types of Magical Thinking, that are pretty common and normal and playful and fun. And sometimes those can carry on in to adulthood. And I think, at some point, it can become problematic, which we can get into. If you're noticing that it's really impairing your functioning and your mental outlook on life,

Scott Benner 9:24
I'm gonna give you an example. Okay, we're at what ended up being my son's last game of his senior season of college baseball. Games not going well. They're going to lose. And I watched adults, people who have, by my estimation, good jobs, who own homes, who I've seen make rational decisions about things over and over again, who I've had long conversations with and who seem very reasonable. I started watching them do the craziest stuff from talking to them. selves under their breath when their kids were hitting to changing their seating position to watch people move their phones from pocket to pocket, and I thought, oh my god, everyone's crazy.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 10:15
Oh, yeah, we're wearing the same jersey or the same hat. Oh, are the same position?

Scott Benner 10:21
Yeah. Alright, go where did this person go? They moved to left field because the last time they stood in left field, their kid got a triple. I watched, I watched a person like, not striking themselves hard, but like, softly pounding on the side of their head while their kid was hitting. I was like, what is happening right now talking to themselves. Here's why they lost the game, in case any of them are listening. They started the wrong pitcher.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 10:48
Not because he didn't wear the same shirt. Yeah, I don't

Scott Benner 10:50
want to give the kid up. But it is the wrong choice. That's why they lost the game. They started the wrong pitcher that was that. But my goodness, people shifting around in their seats. It was just it was fascinating. They all thought that they were about to impact the luck that was happening on the field when which Meantime, baseball is not luck. It's it's kind of like it's a it's controlled chaos. It's randomness that once in a while works in your favor. And you know, and and everyone tricks themselves into believing that they figured out the thing to do so the randomness breaks for them more frequently. And and my best example, that's still wrapped around baseball is how people talk about it. If you win a game, you know, I don't know if you win a game five nothing. You go into the dugout, you say, oh my god, we hit great today. But if you lose the game five, nothing. You don't say, Oh, we hit terribly today. You say wow, they really pitched great today. It's interesting. Right? Right, like you didn't when no one wants to take credit for losing, they only want to take credit for winning.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 11:55
Yeah, and I think you're trying to have maybe either some semblance of control. in it. Yeah, as you said he kind of contract controlled chaos environment. And, or it's just a simple, you know, hope belief system that you're wanting to do anything you can and believe in anything that you can to hopefully have a positive outcome on a situation that you don't have control over as a parent.

Scott Benner 12:24
Is that is that magical thinking if I get up and move to left field? Or is it also a tiny bit of confirmation bias? Like, well, I did this last time in this word, and then let the magical thinking take the thought to the next step. Is that possible? I

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 12:40
think it's reinforcing like every time you do, I think going back to like, every time you throw a coin in the fountain and you make a wish and that wish comes true. That's reinforcing that bias or that belief that oh, this actually works for me, when maybe, you know, it doesn't have any bearing on that outcome or that wish that you made. That, yeah, go ahead.

Scott Benner 13:04
It's fast. It's fascinating. And you you said earlier, like, it's not really very harmful. Like, I don't care if people go stand in a different place the baseball, meaningless to me. But can that get to the point where it's at an OCD level?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 13:17
Yeah, I think, you know, as you're thinking about magical thinking, and superstition, and that's all fun and games, so to speak, as a child and even into adulthood, with the sport theme that we're talking about, I think, and even it can be positive. When you're thinking about, you know, the power of positive thinking, if you have, you'll read and learn about the power of positive thinking for people who are diagnosed with cancer. And while there's actually no direct evidence or research, that the positive thinking has a direct causal link to reducing the cancer or you know, prolonging your life, it does have a positive effect on your management of stress and and that they can they have said, helps you heal better and respond to treatment, all that. So that can be really positive if your belief system is if I think this way, and I manifest this thing in this way, then it's going to happen. I think, if you're thinking about it in the opposite direction of oh my gosh, I thought badly, I had a bad thought about a family member or a friend. And then something bad happened to that family member or a friend then you're placing blame on yourself because you had that thought. I think that's where you there's a slippery slope getting into maybe negative pattern negative thinking patterns. Or you might be controlling you think you're controlling outcomes when you're actually not. And eventually, yes, it can become it can develop into maybe OCD behaviors or with more severe anxiety, where if you think about you're trying to control outcomes in life If I worry about this, anticipate this bad thing happening, then maybe it won't happen. Or maybe I won't feel as bad when it happens. And that, that can become really problematic.

Scott Benner 15:09
Yeah, so interesting, because then if you if you use this kind of way of thought, in a, in a bubble, like you wouldn't, it's just about you, like, I'll be positive about this. And, you know, sure, the positivity is probably not really going to affect my, my knee healing faster. But it will make take my stress away. And if I'm not stressed about it, that actually will help my knee heal faster. So there's no no harm and just seeing the high side and, and, you know, hoping for the best and that kind of stuff. It's when you're, when you're thinking, if I do this thing, then a different human being on the planet is going to have a different outcome. That's that I mean, to me, that's such a strange idea. Like, I don't understand superstition at all. And then by by understand, I mean, like, I've never had a superstitious thought that lingered with me. And it's, um, and when I see other people have them, it's fascinating to me, it really is like, there, there are actual things you could do in some moments to help things like real things, and instead, you're busy. And you know, I'm bringing all this up, because because I think it relates to diabetes, and what ends up happening to people's if you have these feelings already, and then you or your kid gets diabetes, you could get stuck in a situation where you're now making poor decisions when there are better decisions to be made. And, you know, Canada stuck. Yeah. And then you can take it all the way out to the end. You know, the the biggest thing somebody sent me an article the other day, gosh, I think it was from Australia or New Zealand, whereas another family's been arrested because their kid got type one diabetes, and they said they were going to let God take care of it. And you know, obviously without insulin, the kid died. Yeah, right. And so that that is the other end of it. It's like we're not really talking about it because I don't listen to people's religious beliefs are their own and I think they're wonderful and I have literally no trouble in the world with anybody's religious beliefs. But when your religious beliefs get in the way of you given someone insulin, then you know the outcomes are pretty predictable. I actually think that's what killed Prince.

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Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 20:14
Yeah, I don't know. I can't speak to that for certain. Okay,

Scott Benner 20:17
so let me let me listen, I'll tell the story. And if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. But okay. My ex, my understanding was that Prince's religion precluded him from having his body cut open. And so he instead medicated his pain. And, you know, the drugs got him one day. So, the idea was, he could have had a surgery that would have relieved his pain, he wouldn't have had to take all these pain pills. And it might have changed the course of his life. But because of his his belief, which, you know, again, if it wasn't going to put him in the situation he was in hurts no one, it not even him. But I don't know, I just, you know, at some point, there's just there are just so many times I see online, my kids blood sugar's really high, and someone will come in and say, I'm going to pray for you. And I think that's wonderful. Like, I think that's lovely. I mean, these are two disconnected people who don't know each other, and one of them saying, Look, I can't do anything for you, but I will pray for you. That's terrific. My worry is always that on the other side, somebody might be thinking, Oh, well, this person's prayer will take care of this when you need to Bolus or something. Right. Right. Right. Yeah. Anyway, what happens when you see somebody who has has had these thoughts? Do you try to help them with them? How would you go about it?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 21:37
I think most often, when someone is in my office, they've they've kind of maybe arrived at the place of their anxious thinking, has the magical thinking has developed into anxious thinking in terms of I am so nervous about the either the future or something bad happening, whether in the diabetes world, I'm so worried about, you know, having complications or having a low. And in there, yes, there are things that you can do to prevent, to, to protect, prevent all those things. But there are also if the anxiety is so consuming, where that's all you're thinking about all the time. Right? So you're having difficulty sleeping, you're having difficulty staying in relationship with with friends or family. Because that, that anxiety is, well, if I just I worry about it and think about it all day long, maybe that'll prevent that bad thing from happening. And so that's when we would look at, you know, what are? What are the triggers? What are some ways to kind of reduce the frequency of those of those thoughts, and then practicing some coping strategies to reduce that. But I think that that's where I would work with somebody, and when that the prevalence and the persistency of that anxious thinking, and that it really is kind of magical thinking kind of blown up, right? If I just if I worry about it and think about it all day long, it's not going to happen, or it's going to reduce the pain of when that bad thing does happen.

Scott Benner 23:21
Okay, yeah, yeah, it's, um, I know a person, Eric, I know a person who lays the groundwork for something to go wrong months in advance, it just, it is a part of their personality. It's fascinating, they lower the bar. So far, that any thing that happens, looks like success. And then that's how they keep themselves, you know, in the situation they're in, but they, I don't I, the one thing I can't tell you is if it's conscious or not, but you know, the, if I don't know if the if a holidays coming up six months from now, they'll start telling you why they'll probably be busy, or why they can't get there or why it's going to go wrong, or why they won't be able to afford a gift. Or they just they they lay out this this runway of reasons. So that in the moment when the failure happens, which I guess is how they're saying it that no one's mad at them. Maybe you just made me think about it differently. Like I always thought they were lowering expectations, but maybe they're trying to protect themselves.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 24:29
Yeah, I think it's a protective mechanism. Because either either you're thinking if I worry about it, this this possible negative outcome, then it'll protect me when it happens. Because I've always I already worried about it so much. So when it does happen, it's not going to feel as painful which is that's a lie, right? That's a cognitive distortion. That you're that the anxiety is telling you. That if you worry about it, either it won't happen or you won't feel as much pain when it does happen.

Scott Benner 25:00
Okay, so then the next thing on my list was cognitive dissonance. Yes. And that is what you were just referring to correct? Well,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 25:09
cognitive distortions are a bunch of different kinds of lies that and belief systems that can develop cognitive dissonance. And these are like big words, is actually is the feeling that the kind of the stress or emotional or mental discomfort that you experience when you're too different either belief system systems or behaviors have are in conflict. Okay. And I think, too, I think going back to the examples might be the most helpful to please explain what cognitive cognitive dissonance is, it's important to know that that isn't, it isn't the aftermath, it's the it's the feeling the mental discomfort when two conflicting beliefs or values or attitudes occur. And so one example is, I think the easiest example, and the most kind of challenging is smoking, somebody likes to smoke. And either however they've gotten there, they like to, they like to smoke cigarettes. But the they know that the smoking can is harmful to their body and cause cancer. So you're you you're either addicted, or you have the pattern you'd like to smoke, however often or not, but then you're so that that's your action, but then the your belief is, oh, but I know this is causing my heart harm to my body. So then you're in that space of cognitive dissonance. Okay, I think same thing with like, you could apply it to diabetes. Sorry, go ahead, where you're gonna know, I'm

Scott Benner 26:49
just I'm trying to make sure I'm following along. So okay, in like a small way. I've heard people say, like, like they're using a Weight Watchers app, for example. And they, they actually, I mean, you're the only one that's aware of what the app says, You're the only one that was aware of what you've eaten, and they lie to the app. So that's an example of this, right?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 27:14
Yes, be? Well, that is your that is the, you're changing your action, to reduce the cognitive dissonance that you're experiencing. So they, they ate five cookies. But and but they're on a diet, they're trying to be on a diet, they ate five cookies. So now they're in cognitive dissonance. They're feeling emotionally discomfort, emotional discomfort. And so to relieve that dissonance, they're going to lie to the app to reduce some of that discomfort.

Scott Benner 27:48
That's interesting. So I'm gonna give you an example from my life and tell me if this is right. Or if I'm trying to put a square peg in a round hole. So I know a person who chose to vote in a certain direction, in a in a federal election, and then they got their candidate, and then the candidate did something that they didn't want to happen. And so initially, they spent a lot of time on social media saying, you know, you have to vote for this person, you have to vote for this person, then, you know, that happened, and they were all happy. And then the thing happened, this law got put into place. And then they come out and say, I can't believe this happened. How can we let this happen? And I looked at it, I thought, This is what you voted for, like, this is the thing you like this was going to happen if you voted, right. And I always thought, as I looked at it, I have to admit, my, my, my hot take was they didn't understand the impact of their vote. But now you're making me think that you knew this was gonna happen. And now this is them protecting themselves like I needed to vote for this person because of, I don't know, any number of reasons that I agreed with. But there were a couple of things I didn't agree with. And now that one of those things came true. I need to distance myself from that somehow. Is

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 29:13
that Yes, yeah. Or blaming. So that's kind of the that is the result of the dissonance they might have experienced,

Scott Benner 29:20
okay, so they made that just yet led to this thing. And now they need to let the world know they're not okay with this part.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 29:29
Yeah, I mean, that's, that is. Yeah, it's so it is a complicated notion. I think, in that moment, they're, maybe they're feeling guilt or regret about voting for that person. Because now and so that that guilt or regret about voting for that person or feeling embarrassed. That's the dissonance. Yeah. And then they're gonna either you're gonna change your belief or change your behavior to reduce that dissonance right

Scott Benner 29:58
and In this example, I'm obviously trying not to make it a partisan idea. But in this example, this is a thing you can all trust me, that was very obviously attached to the candidate. It's not like, okay, it's not like the 17 thing down on their list, and they're like, I can't believe they made all the parks close at 10 o'clock. Like, I didn't know that was gonna happen when I voted for them. Like this was a thing, that that four year olds were going to know what's gonna happen if this person, you know, gotten to power. So you don't I mean, like, I always just assumed like, I don't know, it's funny, I always just assumed stupidity. But now I'm thinking, this is the same thing I was talking about with the other person who lays the groundwork for protecting themselves from feeling badly placed is super interesting.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 30:43
Yeah, I think most often we're responding, whether we're blaming ourselves or blaming others, or trying to change or lie to ourselves or lie to others, your your can usually acting out of that discomfort within yourself, because of the your, the action that you had is, is in conflict with your belief system. And then you have to reduce that discomfort. Okay. And then, and then you see kind of different. So if we're going back to the the smoking example, to reduce that dissonance that they're feeling every time they have a cigarette, even though they enjoy it, but they know it's bad for their body, then to reduce the dissonance, they're going to say to themselves, if they're going to change their belief, or say, well, it's I don't I only smoke once every other day. And that's, I'm, I'm not gonna have any damage to myself. Or you change the behavior, because the dissonance has become so severe and you stop smoking.

Scott Benner 31:39
Yeah. Do you think generally speaking, this is one of these questions, you're not gonna like, I heard you do it when I was thinking. Do you think generally speaking, if we look at the masses, like taking everybody into account that statistically, most people aren't going to change? Right? So it because you have to recognize it, it has to intellectually make sense to us to emotionally make sense, you have to search out help or make some kind of like, tough decision for yourself. So So generally speaking, I mean, listen, I'll relate it back to the podcast, I think if you listen to the podcast, your agency is easily in the sixes, maybe in the fives if you try harder. So by that, you know, let's say that's true, then all everyone living with insulin has to do is listen to this podcast, and they're going to be okay, except we know that's not going to happen. And so these people who are involved in these kinds of thoughts, they're torturing themselves. Like, is there not a humane argument to be made for just lean into it smoke all the cigarettes you want and die earlier, but that might be better than torturing yourself and living 10 more years, that like, because at least they're not going to be, you know, mentally tortured by this thing that they know, they're not supposed to be, you know, quote, unquote, supposed to be doing? Like, I don't know, like it is what I'm saying is live fast die young, leave a good looking corpse is that like,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 33:04
I think eventually, you will ultimately have to make that decision to say, you know, forget it, I'm, I'm going to live my life. I like to smoke, and I'm not going to keep this battle up. Every time I have a cigarette, right? I think ultimately, you will make that decision, and to say, Oh, I'm fine. It's not gonna happen to me, or I'm not gonna think about it, I'm fine. I think yeah,

Scott Benner 33:29
good even to take it out of the health room. I see people do it with homes, they have a home and they say, Look, I'm going to spend the extra money I have on living, and this house is going to fall apart around me. And when it's over, it's not going to be worth anything to me, I'm not gonna be able to sell it make a bunch of money, but I don't care. I'm gonna put my I'm gonna put my money where I want it to be. And, and they're okay with it. And they're the kind of people who that if you speak to them, there's no, they're not embarrassed. They don't care that their house is the one on the street that looks like it's, you know, the monsters live there. They really they don't, they don't care. They're good ones that decision they've made. And I'm wondering, I want I'm wondering what the, what the trade off is between not torturing yourself and just being okay with it. And, you know, sure, you might lose on the back end. But in the moment, it might be much more pleasant for you now, not to say that, by the way, there's a balance, that guy could spend some of his money on the house and some of his money on him. Or you could you know, try harder not to do the thing that you don't want to do. But But I guess in the as I'm listening to it, the sad part of this is the torture part, the part where people are, are doing that to themselves. And I guess if you could, if you could impact one aspect of this whole thing, that would be step one in my mind. Do you

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 34:51
is making that choice of how you're going to live? Yeah, yeah.

Scott Benner 34:55
So that so that everything you do isn't painful.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 35:00
Yes, and I think that diamond, that would be the most ideal, I think we're I know we're talking about like, bigger issues. But this can happen, you know, on a day to day basis making a decision of, you don't want to miss out on going to a party, or doing something that you think might be fun. But ultimately, you don't really want to go, but you do it anyway, because of either pressure, or you feel like you should go to the party. And then you go, and you get there, and you're feeling discomfort, because you like, Why did I go? I didn't want to be here. So I think then, then you make that decision of okay, well, am I going to, you know, stay myself for going, am I going to stay? Am I going to leave? You know, that's, that's the aftermath of the dissonance. So I think these things can happen. Very, they're small, little quick moments of decision making, all day long that we have. And I think what you're, what you're encouraging is, can you be in a place of just being grounded and listening to your gut, so to speak, and responding and then being kind to yourself, whatever you decide,

Scott Benner 36:09
yeah, just whatever you did, you did. And that's it. We'll do it later. Like, you'll try again, if it didn't work out the right way. But, but so many people get caught in a in a loop. Yes. You know, the first is the first the first thing, the first decision they make, it doesn't go well. They just, they just keep reliving it, instead of just letting it go. And I hate this. Like, I'm a fairly. I'm a reasonably controlled person. Do you really mean like, I'm not an out of control person? I guess. And, and yet, I would tell you that nothing really matters all that much. Like if you don't kill somebody hurt somebody. There's almost nothing you can't rebound from, you know what I mean? Like, it's just, I don't know, Erica, do you have a? Do you have a code you live by?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 37:02
Oh, I don't, I don't think I can. A specific code or mantra. But I think knowing that you are, that I am loved and to be kind to one another. And I preach pretty loud and clear of being kind and gracious to yourself, to oneself to myself, you know, as we go about our lives and offering that to others. Yeah, you know, equally.

Scott Benner 37:28
That just makes sense. You get well, I mean, when I was young, I mean, everyone knows, right? Like, I didn't grow up, like with a real like, you know, with parents who were like, here's the rules get an amen. The rules were listen, and we're broke, you know, so try not to eat that today. Save for tomorrow. So, so I stepped back, and I thought, I need something to follow, like, like an idea to follow, right? And there's no, I don't have religion, so there was nothing there. And I thought about it, and I thought about it. I said, Okay, well, here's what I'm gonna do. I'm not going to hurt another person. I'm going to treat people generally the way I hope to be treated. And I'm not going to lie, if I can help it like that those that teenage me came up with. And I have to be honest with you works out pretty well. Because most of the time turns out, you don't have to lie. You don't I mean, and what do I mean, if if I can help it. Here's a great example. This happened yesterday, my wife ordered a bench for the house. It came in a box, it was missing parts, the parts kept the thing from being put together correctly. So the side of the bench is not attached to the top of the bench correctly. We called the company that made it and we tried to get the parts sent to us. The part was not available. They said, We don't have replacement parts for it, you're going to have to return the bench, but we bought it through Amazon. So they said you have to do it through Amazon. I called Amazon, I spoke to a person. And she said, What's the problem? And I have to admit to you what the problem is, is that I don't want to take that bench apart and ship it back to them. But it was a couple of $100. And I can't afford to just eat it. So she said you need to ship it back to us. And I said I can't. And she said Why is it I have no packaging material and it won't fit in my car. And she refunded my money. And I'm going to use that money to buy another bench. That was a lie, Erica, I could absolutely return that bench if I wanted. I do not want it. It's not my fault that it showed up without parts in it. And I am not going to go spend the next two hours of my life ripping this thing apart, boxing it up and dragging it back to a UPS store. I didn't do this. So I made some sort of a moral judgment that I was more on the right side of this than the wrong side of it. And I called one lie to get my money back. I have no trouble with that in the world. Now. Would I walk over my neighbor and tell him that I know his wife's cheating on somebody else because I think it would be fun. No, I would not do that. I would not make up I like that. So that's my, that's my line for lying.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 40:04
You have some limits

Scott Benner 40:06
what I consider to be a significant limit, but but you can pretty much trust. I would imagine if you were around me, you could trust that 99.9% of the time, I am absolutely being honest. If I get pinched, I'll bend the truth if I have to. Now, I always treat people the way I want to be treated, that I don't bend on. So I don't know. Like, I don't know if that's a Those are rules or not. But to me, they seem they seem like obvious things to do. And I don't know how I even brought it up at this point. I just was,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 40:42
yeah, it's a belief value system that maybe prevents you from experiencing the disc dissonance, the discomfort of how you want your, your beliefs and actions to align. And when they don't, that's when you experience the dissonance.

Scott Benner 40:59
Yeah, man, well, you know, even this topic with you today, like these kinds of like, like many topics inside of this. I mean, if we're all being 100% honest with each other, I have the opportunity, just like you do, to see how people are really thinking, right, because they'll come on here and tell a story. And they're pretty open about it, or I get to watch them online interact with each other, when they don't know they're being watched really like kind of thing. Like it's not creepy. I'm like you just listening to what people are saying and how they're, how they're impacting, and how these things are impacting their lives. And I'm telling you, that, from my perspective, a fair amount of the trouble people have managing their diabetes is based on how their brains are lying to them at times, or these things. You know what I mean? Like, and no one's I'm not aware of it, no one's aware of it as it happens. So you have to have these conversations that hopefully something like, morphs or clicks for you. You know what I mean?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 41:59
Yes, yes. Because I think then, where the this, this discomfort can then lead to the feelings of shame, and stress or regret that, you know, that I might hear about in my office with with clients or caregivers of I supposed to be doing this, or I made this mistake, I Bolus this way. Or I keep doing the same thing, even though I know I shouldn't be. And I keep eating the same thing. And then my numbers go this way. And now and then I experienced that discomfort because I know I feel like I shouldn't be because then you often have that should talk comes with the dissonance. And then you that leads to feelings of shame, and you can get stuck in that cycle. So we're trying to, you know, going back to it, let's be aware of those triggers. And those initial thought patterns is one of the ways that we can kind of release reduce some of that consistency and negative thinking, which is painful,

Scott Benner 43:01
talk a little more about the should like when something goes through, quote unquote. And you think this is not how it should have gone? What happens then?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 43:09
Yeah. So I think I hear that either whether there are rules around what you should and shouldn't eat. So if you're thinking I shouldn't have had the cake, I shouldn't have had all the candy or I'm not allowed. If it's more of a child thing I'm not supposed to I shouldn't have had that. And now I'm 500 or 300, and I can't. And then I had a sticky high forever, I couldn't bring it down. And then so now you're you're feeling frustrated about the high blood sugar. You're feeling shame because you ate something that you felt you weren't supposed to. Or you can eat anything you want, and you didn't Pre-Bolus for it. And so I think when we have that should talk in our mind, I think we want to look at why. What is that rule? What is the rule that I'm saying? I should have done this or I shouldn't have done that. Should you have Pre-Bolus? Yeah, probably should Was it okay to eat whatever it was that you ate? Well, let's look at what is your family culture? Like what is all that about? Because I don't want to I don't I try not to place judgment and some families don't want to, you know, eat sugar, and that's okay. So the should talk can lead to positive change unless it's, it's around this kind of shame cycle of I should have done a better job I keep making mistakes. And I don't know how or I don't care. So should often can lead to change in some ways, if there is a desire, but I also am really careful to want to understand is there shame underneath the should talk? Okay, does that make sense?

Scott Benner 44:52
No, it does. I was gonna say that. Back in the earlier part of the podcast, I would say more frequently. that, you know, just eliminate drama. Because it because it was an easy blanket way of saying avoid all these things that your brain is going to try to trick you into doing. You know, like, because when you when you make a Bolus and it doesn't go right. And then people This isn't fair like you spiral like, No, I didn't ask for this, that that's one that I'm always fascinated by, like, you know, type one diabetes is not fair because I didn't ask for it. And I'm like, My knee hurts. That's not fair. I didn't ask for it, I floated my vision. That's not fair. I didn't like none of this is fair, you gonna hear me like, it's never never going to be fair, like you're born. And then you grow and then your body starts to deteriorate. It happens at different speeds for different people. It happens if you have different medical conditions, it's going to hit you differently. Like, I don't know what, I don't know what spending time telling me it's not fair gets you like, this is the situation you're in, like, I'm gonna make the most of it person. Like, there are no other options, you're here or you're not. And so you're here and I'm not saying some people don't have terrible afflictions that are painful and, and crippling and life altering. I'm not talking about those people, those people that they should, they should get three hours a day to tell people it's not fair. And we ought to have to listen to them. I'm talking. You don't I mean, like, I mean, that that would be that would be a little closer to fair. I'm talking about, you know, you have allergies, and you can't go outside without taking Zyrtec. That's not fair. But I mean, just take this check. You know, you live in this time, I was, when my son was diagnosed with Hashimotos, it hit him really hard. And instead of, and during a car ride, when we spoke about it, what I told him was, you know, a couple of 100 years ago, we were pretty nomadic people moved around a lot. I said, if you broke your leg, you were dead. You don't you mean like, like, the group couldn't wait for you. And so you'd get left by yourself. And an animal would kill you. Take the centroid, you know what I mean? Like, I know, this sucks and all. But the truth is, is that if this would have happened to you, 200 years ago, you would have just, like deteriorated very quickly, it would have been horrible. And instead, you have to take a pill in the morning. And so, you know, maybe 200 years from now, you'll go into a doctor's office, they'll be like, Oh, you got the Hashimotos that sucks. No, pull out a needle and jam it in. Yeah, and it'll go away. Like, I don't know, where we're gonna lead, you know where this is gonna go to. But in the meantime, there is no time machine. This is the this is the part you live in right now. And diabetes, specifically. I mean, I mean, this is the it's literally the best time in history. And tomorrow will be the better than today and six months from now. And and then people get caught up with well, it's not happening fast enough. And that's like, No, I get that. But, you know, it's, um, this is it. This is what you got, you know, so

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 48:01
yeah, yeah. And, and just like with your son, too, with the Hashimotos, it can be a journey or a process of yeah, getting to that place of acceptance. And that there's there's no real specific timeline and how to get there. Beyond just the kind of lowering yourself to feel what he was feeling.

Scott Benner 48:21
Yeah. But But Erica, where's the? Is this just the fallacy that we're becoming weaker as people? We're doing it because like, I like I knew a guy when I was growing up, my friend's father walked really poorly, because of polio, he had polio as a kid. He's basically walking on the side of his foot. And you know what he did for a living? He drove a tractor trailer. And I never in the history of knowing this guy heard him complain, ever once. Like, like, he just did it like now maybe his expectations were lower because of the time he grew up in. And just maybe having not had the polio kill him was probably more than he could have hoped for, like, I don't know exactly, but I'm just telling you, this was not a particularly tough guy. He was just from a time where you didn't complain about things. You just just did it, you know. And, and I'm not saying that people should not try to alleviate their their struggles. I'm certainly not saying that. But I'm wondering, is it is there something about modern life that sets our expectations so high that anything that goes wrong? Seems like a like a huge. What's the word I want? Like that, like they were lied to?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 49:43
All right, right. Yeah. Or

Scott Benner 49:45
do you have any thoughts on that at all?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 49:46
Oh, my gosh, I feel I guess that's a huge topic to discuss it. Yeah. Like, are we now in an era of either entitlement or expectation that nothing bad should happen? To me, we have oh my gosh. Well, I was just as you were talking about this man on the tractor trailer, I'm wondering how much of our connection via social media has, you know, influenced or snowballed this issue of my either my life is better than yours, or my life is harder than yours. You know, and whether through images or words on all the, you know, socials in a comparison kind of way, even though we all know everyone has their own struggles. So I just wonder how much of that has, you know, exaggerated? It's

Scott Benner 50:54
super interesting that you said this, Erica, and no, no, but I, every time we talk, I realized why we get along so well. So I grew up a Philadelphia Eagles fan football. And we have the best defensive lineman in history at that point, Reggie White. And Reggie leaves the Eagles and goes to the Packers. At the end of of a contract. This is not something that used to occur back then. Like so free agency wasn't a thing in football up until I think it was another Eagles player a tight end, who went from the eagles to the dolphins. I think that's about when it started. Okay, not the point. The point is this, it's when they started making their their salaries public how black and because they needed to, they needed people to know how much they made. So other people could come and ask for more like they had to set up that structure. Prior to that it was all very, very kind of private, you didn't really know how much people made when they started making those people's salaries public. Suddenly, a man like Reggie White who people just adored. They hated him as soon as they learned how much he made. And and I thought, Well, you were so much better off not knowing you know what I mean? Like just go to the football game and enjoy the football game if that's what you like, like now you now you look at this guy, I forget what he was making back then it was probably nothing compared to now. And but people who made 2530 $45,000 A year were like, wait, I'm I work all year for 40 grand, and this guy's making half million dollars a week, he you know, or something like that. And then they couldn't see him anymore the way they saw him. And then it just exploded from there. And we started becoming more and more aware of people who have lives that are just if we're being honest, not average in any way. And now everybody thinks they should be making $7 million a year for doing the thing they're good at. And what I would tell you is whatever you're good at, if you can get 60,000 people show up every Sunday for 16 weeks and pay you $300 to watch it then god damn right, you want to make that much money. But that's not how most of this works. And it's interesting, because you said the same thing. Like you said, social media gives us an awareness that we didn't have before. Have a life that isn't ours. And that's exactly and people can't deal with that, generally speaking, where some people can't,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 53:25
right. And so and either response to that you're get you're either mentally just comparing by viewing what other people are posting, or you're posting yourself, you know, we talked about that last time, too. What, what is driving that behavior, I think there's just something to be you know, to be aware of, of how much you're you're being influenced by that exposure, and how that's influencing your mindset of either gratitude and acceptance, or woe is me. And grant, you will probably fluctuate between both of those things if you're living with a chronic illness. And that's okay. But I think just having that awareness of how much that is influencing your mindset is the key.

Scott Benner 54:11
There's nothing wrong with seeing someone's salary and thinking like, Oh, I wish I had that. That's, that's amazing. You don't I mean, but you can't you can't then just then stop living your life because it doesn't exist for you. I saw something online recently. A person who made a movie years ago, that was very, very popular, is making another movie, that sequel or something like that. And people are coming in and they're, you know, complaining and whatever. And I start reading the comments because they're fun. And the one person says, that movie you made all those years ago made me want to make movies. I dropped out of college, never made a movie and it ruined my life. And I was like, Oh my God. I was like he's blaming the guy for making the movie over this. Like, it's so interesting. Like, I'm not kidding. This 20 Five years ago, and this person is still thinking, the movie I saw on the story that I heard about how you made it, you ruined my life. And I was like, Oh, God, like that's, that's a horrible thing to have to live with, if that's what he really thinks,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 55:17
you know? Right? That's yeah, his narrative. Yeah, really, really

Scott Benner 55:20
interesting. But anyway, the last thing that I have on the list here, I really don't understand a whole lot. It just felt like it fit. And if I'm wrong, you'll stop me. And but I can't in any way. Explain it. So if you can't, we're in trouble. But myth of choice.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 55:37
Yes, yeah, the myth of choice. The another choice myth, however you want to say it the I think the grass is always greener can be another easy way to kind of explain this, you know, terms that when you're faced with a hardship, oftentimes our mind will tell us well, choosing this other alternative is going to be easier than the hardship that you're facing with now, or that you're faced with now. For example, the job is, you know, when that they often will talk about or if you read about, you're in a job, that's hard. And you start looking for other jobs, because either you don't like your boss, or you don't like your task list. And so you think, well, if I move to this other company doing the same job, it's going to be better. And you might initially have that, you so you make the different choice. And you have hope. And you have confidence in that choice, because that's just natural response, and you're doing something new. But then you're going to have another hardship, and then you kind of, and you might end in a in a more challenging position, because you thought, Oh, I thought this was going to be easier or better. And then you're going to have regret for leaving your job because maybe there were other positive things at your past job that were better than this new job. So anyway, that and then you kind of will cycle through that. I think there are other examples of I liked the one that I just recently read about of when you're at a stoplight, and your Google Maps is telling you to go one way. And you think, Well, I'm gonna go the backgrounds way. And I'm gonna get there faster. Like the unknown, you think is often the better alternative. And so that's the mess, the myth of the other choice, because then maybe you take it even Google Maps has all these algorithms and they're saying stay in this, this course, you take a different course because you think it's to be better. And in fact, it's, it's worse.

Scott Benner 57:48
You're, there's this way that we come home from my, from an extended family member's house, and you get to this certain stoplight, you go straight or right. And I always go straight. And my wife always goes right. And we both at like, like so far in two different cars. Right. And so we both completely believe that the one way is the better way. And yeah, we both arrived at the house almost simultaneously, every time. And when it happened, she's like, You spared and I'm like, No, I didn't she's like, Yes, you did. I think it just doesn't matter. But we both like i i Sometimes this is interesting, Erica I sometimes when I'm by myself turn right at that light instead of going straight, because it is not what I want to do. And I don't know why I do that to myself, but I forced myself not to believe that I've made some superior choice at this turn.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 58:43
Oh, that's like a good exposure in practice to just try. Try new things

Scott Benner 58:48
I'm doing in my car exposure. So it's, um, I don't know how this relates, it just seems like it does to me. You know, big, big examples are I think this myth of a choice often ruins people's relationships. You know, because, yeah, yeah, you get married, you think everything's gonna be perfect. And that's clearly not going to be what it's going to be. And eventually, you know, something's gonna happen, where it tarnishes, etc. And then you start thinking, like, ah, but that guy I used to date in college, he was better, you know, a man or she was better. I'm gonna go to that one now. And the truth is for me, I mean, my truth is, I believe that your history and the love that you've built and the I don't know, like the unseen on tangible like the tangible but not holdable ideas that you that you you know, end up constructing when you're building a family or a relationship like those are valuable. Like they don't they don't make your spouse pick up dog poop when they walk past that. But you know, Arca do we all know somebody who will just like pretend the dog too. input so that somebody else has to pick it up, right? So, but But So sure, you might go to the girl at the gym, who seems to love you because you know, etc, but ensure she might pick up the poop, but be something else she's not going to do at some point, you're gonna, what are you gonna do? You're gonna go back to your wife and go like, I'm so sorry. Like it's over now your hurt feelings, you know what I mean? Not to say there aren't reasons why relationships should dissolve? I'm clearly not saying that. I just mean that, if you start getting it in your head, that everything's always better, except for the thing you have. That's just a very dangerous way to live.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:00:36
You know? Yeah. It is, I think, and that's, you know, understanding what is the, if the problem at hand, and oftentimes that does happen in relationships, and I will meet with with clients about that very topic. And understanding is it is it because I have this hope that the next person's gonna be better, shinier, etc? Or is it really is not the right fit relationally. And that, you know, that takes time to kind of unpack. I think, one thing that we might do in, in diabetes, I think when you're trying to make a decision, let's say even just about, I'm trying to bring this back to, you know, the the the other the myth of the other choice, when you're trying to make a decision, whether it's about food, or even, like, you know, technology, that's a big topic that people will I you know, should I do this? Or that, should I use this pump or that pump or this, you know, in there? Or if you're using one is the other one going to be better? I think it's always important to just, what if it's a small decision, pause out, you're looking at, am I going to have this donut? Or am I going to have this banana? Like, pause? And just think through? is, am I making the right call here? Is this the right choice? If it's their bigger decisions, one of you know, the classic strategies ready do during the pro con list for both? I think if you're in a really intense situation, you're really stressed or really angry, it's often easier to say, Well, clearly, using this other product is going to be so much better, or doing this other thing is going to feel better. So I think trying to delay making any major decisions, or even small ones, if you're in a moment of extreme stress, anger, exhaustion, fatigue, because that often will drive your decision. Yeah, it'll

Scott Benner 1:02:40
do what you mentioned earlier, like your frustration will allow you to believe that anything different is going to be

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:02:44
better is gonna be better. Yeah. Yeah.

Scott Benner 1:02:48
Yeah. No, I was just gonna say, I mean, that's a great example, in diabetes, I was gonna use the one that, you know, listen, nobody has to listen to me. Okay. I'm not. I just said, Listen, you don't have to listen to me, which is hilarious. Poor, poor, poor, poor sentence structure there. But, you know, I'm just saying like, this is just my opinion, right? But leaving your blood sugar 200 all the time so that you don't get low? I don't think that's Oh, yeah, that's not a real choice. That's, that's, you know, first of all, I think it's a little, little confirmation bias, because it just hasn't, you know, I've never gotten low when I leave my blood sugar 200. And so this is obviously not going to lead to a low, it's not true, eventually, you're gonna get people get low when they use insulin, it's just happens. But the idea of it's like, to me, that's the smoking argument from earlier, right. Like, I can smoke as much as I want. It's not going to kill me. My Dad, I've told you this before my father would come back from like his physicals doctor says he can't even tell I smoke. And then you know, it killed him. congestive heart failure, which was directly related to his smoking. So you know, you can't leave your blood sugar 200 all the time and just go, Well, I'm okay today. So this is a good choice, because it won't, because I don't know how many people I gotta bring on here for you to listen to who you know, make that decision. And then 10 years later are on here saying I really wish I wouldn't have done that. And you know, because now here, here, all the real world, things that are happening to me that my magical thinking isn't going to take care of that I can't ignore. And that that medicine, at this time in history can't make go away anymore. Like you. Sometimes you give things away, you can't get them back. I think it's my point.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:04:31
Yes, I think that you kind of just typed in all the kind of maybe three topics that we've been talking about with if I let I know the science and data tells me I shouldn't ride at 202 50 all day, every day for years on end. But yet I feel comfortable there or you've learned how to feel comfortable but you might have had experience of feeling that dissonance or just comfort. So in response to that you're you're building a new belief system is Well, I'm okay here, I'm either not going to have complications, and I'm preventing myself from going low or having a seizure. So you've kind of changed your belief system in response to that number and living there. Right. And that's that is hard.

Scott Benner 1:05:19
I'm going to tell you something everyone listening Eric just said something a minute ago made my whole day. It's gonna probably stick with me through the weekend because I like other people I need I need love. I did do a perfect job of putting that all together just

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:05:36
you did Scott.

Scott Benner 1:05:37
Literally pleased with myself like you guys. Here's why can I can I pull the curtain back for a second? Sure. I have you for an hour, one time right before you go get your knee surgery. Yeah. And I think what's going to help people who listen to the podcast, and then with no psychological like psychology, I didn't go to college people know psychology background. I'm basically a moron. Dude, anemia, like all I have with me is my life experience. I mean, honestly, if you saw me try to do, I'm gonna say algebra, you probably would never talk to me again. Because you would like I don't want people to know, I know. I don't have any background in this is what I'm saying. All I have is my lived experience. And the experience I have talking to people and watching people online, manage their diabetes, their health issues, their relationships, that kind of stuff. And I know that people's brains lied, we lied to them. It's a weird way to say it. But I went online, and I was like, okay, like, if you think that prior to me setting this up with Erica, I could have defined cognitive dissonance. You're wrong. I know, the I, I know the idea. I recognize it as a human trait. But I don't know what it means. And then I thought, Okay, well, there, that idea definitely fits with the concept that people think there's this magical thing that happens that they can kind of control the world, those definitely go together. And then I needed a third thing to bring it together. And it's like, oh, the myth of choice, which is not something I know about it, you know, I just understood that. That's how people think. And then luckily, somebody who was much smarter than me had already talked about it in the world. And it has an I knew you would know about it. And that's all i That's all I knew when I brought those three ideas together. I wish I wish I was lying, but I put about 20 minutes worth of effort into this, then I let you tell me what you know. And then I just tried to mirror back what I've experienced and, and in the end people, you know, you got to take good care of yourself. And if you can't, if you definitely can't find a way through it, go find somebody that can help you with it. And you know, if anxiety is your is your problem. I don't think it matters if it's because the world's changing, or because whatever, it doesn't matter, people who are crippled by anxiety that is very real. And you're likely going to need help with that part. But all these other things are swirling around you and in my heart, I want you to make the decision. I want your life to go the way it you know, the ways as fair as possible for you, and the way that makes you the most comfortable and happy and productive. And I think it's important to know that your your thoughts are letting you down sometimes. And there's conscious decisions you can make, like making a right turn instead of going straight. And goddamnit.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:08:32
Be kind and be kind to yourself in the midst of it all.

Scott Benner 1:08:36
Yes. So you're saying when I pull into the into the driveway before my wife, I should not give her the finger as I'm pulling.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:08:45
Yes, that's what I'm saying you should not do that.

Scott Benner 1:08:48
Anything you want to add to this because I'm, again, a neophyte. I don't know what I'm talking about.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:08:53
No, I think that was a great a great wrap up in summary, I think, you know, these are big terms. And if there's still confusing there are lots of resources and talks and topics on all of them. But basically it is it's being aware of your thought patterns and and how they're influencing your actions is really kind of summing it up. And that's really the first place to go but also being aware of that self talk is key. Good. How are you talking to yourself? Yeah, so thank

Scott Benner 1:09:23
you, of course and Erica, of course if you live in California, here's the big or you want to say it here we'll say it somewhere else too. But you know, our kids been doing you know, therapy for a long time, but she did it. Was it part time or just not your full?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:09:39
It was It was part time for for many many years. As I also worked as a school counselor and psychotherapist

Scott Benner 1:09:47
but expanding those children and your

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:09:52
eye Yes, I am in the process this fall transitioning to full time private practice, which I'm really excited about. Excellent.

Scott Benner 1:09:59
So if you If you live in California, Erica forsyth.com That's right.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:10:04
Thank you so much. And

Scott Benner 1:10:05
if you don't live in California, go find your own. Erica. I found her. You could find yours.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:10:11
Yes, yes.

Scott Benner 1:10:13
Well, thank you so much for doing this with me.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:10:15
You're welcome. Thank you of course.

Scott Benner 1:10:27
First, I'd like to thank Erica Forsythe remind you go to Erica forsythe.com. And let you know that as soon as Eric has knee is all mended up and she's feeling better record an entire series, a Pro Tip series for mental health. A huge thank you to one of today's sponsors, G voc glucagon, find out more about Chivo Capo pen at G Vogue glucagon.com forward slash juicebox you spell that GVOKEGL You see ag o n.com forward slash juicebox. I'd also like to thank us med for sponsoring this episode of The Juicebox Podcast and remind you to go to us med.com forward slash juicebox get better service and better care with us med You can also call 888-721-1514 If you're enjoying the podcast please share it with someone else who you think might also enjoy it. And don't forget to subscribe in the app you're listening in. Some apps want you to subscribe some say to follow subscriber follow it means the same thing, go into that audio app and hit subscribe. Doing that will help me it will make the show more visible in other people's searches and it will give you access to all the new content as soon as it's available. Thank you so much for listening. I'll be back very soon with another episode of The Juicebox Podcast.

#719 Bold Beginnings: 15/15 Rule

Scott Benner 7/13/22 Scott Benner 7/13/22

#718 Pandemic Diagnosis

Lindsey is a nurse who was diagnosed with type 1 diabetes at the begining of the pandemic.

+ Click for EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Scott Benner 0:00
Hello friends, and welcome to episode 718 of the Juicebox Podcast.

Today, I'm going to introduce you to Lindsay. She is an adult living with type one diabetes. She's a nurse, and she was diagnosed right at the onset of COVID. While you're listening today, please remember that nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise, always consult a physician before making any changes to your health care plan, or becoming bold with insulin. If you're looking for the defining diabetes series, the diabetes Pro Tip series or any of the other management based series from the podcast, there are lists of them on our private Facebook page Juicebox Podcast, type one diabetes, join the page, go to the top hit the feature tab, and up to date lists will be waiting for you. And don't forget that if you're a US resident who has type one, or is the caregiver of a type one, you can join the registry and take the survey AT T one D exchange.org. Forward slash juicebox. When you do that, you'll be helping people living with type one diabetes. As soon as you complete that survey, you'll be supporting them. You'll be supporting me and you'll be helping T one D exchange.org. Forward slash Juicebox Podcast. This episode of The Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by us med get your diabetes supplies from us med by going to us med.com forward slash juice box or calling 888-721-1514. As a matter of fact, we just received Omni pods in the mail just the other day from us med on the pod you say Scott? Are they a sponsor of today's episode? Well, yes, they are on the pod.com forward slash juice box. Find out if you're eligible for a free 30 day trial of the Omni pod dash links to us med on the pod and all the sponsors are available at juicebox podcast.com. Or right there in the podcast player that you're listening in right now in the show notes. And if you're not listening in a podcast player, please subscribe and follow today in your favorite audio app.

Lindsay 2:26
Hi, I'm Lindsay. I am type one diabetic. I was diagnosed March 2020. The best time for a diagnosis. And I live in New Jersey. I have been a nurse for a little over four years now. So I was diagnosed right when COVID about three days before lockdown started.

Scott Benner 2:52
Wow. Hey, right up on that mic. Lindsay get a little closer. Okay. Okay. Yeah, there we go. Yeah, look closer, keep your face towards it. You were a little back then. But everyone's gonna hear you don't worry. You were diagnosed? Oh, as it was happening?

Lindsay 3:06
Yes. So I actually remember the day because it was Friday the 13th. So I worked as a nightshift nurse at the time. And so it was my third night shift. And ironically enough, I was I was pretty lucky when it came to my diagnosis. So every year through my job, they have us do something called a biometric screening, which is just it's super basic blood work. It just tests your blood sugar, your cholesterol, and then they do like a blood pressure waist circumference. And if you pass three out of the five criteria, you get a discount on your insurance. And that's that. So like very, very exciting stuff. So I, I wasn't really seeing a primary because, you know, I was in my 20s, I wasn't really concerned about my health. I lived somewhat healthy. But every year I would do that, because you know, who wouldn't want to save money? So I was at work. And I was checking my email, and it's like, three in the morning. And all they send is congratulations, you passed three out of the five criteria. And I was like, Oh, what did I not pass? Yeah. Was

Scott Benner 4:14
he Hi, old are you?

Lindsay 4:17
I'm 26. I just turned 26. In October,

Scott Benner 4:20
you're a fair to say at the age where you don't expect to only get three of the five health things checked off.

Lindsay 4:25
Right, exactly. So I was like, Oh, I wonder what I didn't pass. And so I opened it. And what's funny is they don't even tell you if you have a critical result. They're just like, oh, you passed three out of the five you're you're good. So I checked it and my fasting blood sugar was 250 Oh, and obviously being a nurse. I was like, what? That's not good. i My first thought was now this. They made a mistake. This isn't mine. But I was at work and I obviously knew it wasn't good. So I started panicking. But it was three in the morning, I wasn't going to where was I going to go, I wasn't going to go to the doctor then. So I just kind of stuck out the rest of the shift. In that moment, the first thing I wanted to do was check my blood sugar. But the machines that we use at our job, you're not allowed to check your own blood sugar. Like you can only check patient blood sugars. So I just had to sit there I had the power in front of me, and I couldn't do it. So so once I left work, I ran to CVS and just bought a cheap glucometer. And then I and I hadn't eaten for like, I'd say, like five hours at that point. And my sugar was like, 250 something so

Scott Benner 5:35
Well, the good news is your job doesn't discriminate against people with diabetes. Yeah, yeah, that's for sure. He's still passed. So they were like, Yeah, this is Yeah,

Lindsay 5:44
exactly. Um, so yeah, at that point. I think I didn't even have a primary setup. At that point. My last primary was my pediatrician. And I was 24 at that point, so I wasn't gonna go back there. So well.

Scott Benner 5:59
I want to know like your first of all, I really do want to know, did you test it in the CVS? If the car on the sidewalk like

Lindsay 6:06
No, I, I brought it back to my house? You made it? i Okay. Yeah, I thought about it. But I went to CVS right by my house. So I figured I would just grab it and just test it right at home. When you

Scott Benner 6:18
see the number. Do you just are you resolved? You're like I have diabetes.

Lindsay 6:23
I mean, I sobbed I, I kind of knew. So my aunt and my uncle on my dad's side, both had type one. So there was a family history. So I, I kind of knew at that point. And also when I was at work, when, what after I opened my email, I saw I was a float nurse at the time. So I was on pediatrics. And I told the nurses, I was like, I need to just, I need to just go for a walk. And I had a friend who worked on critical care. So I went to visit her. And I told her the situation and one of the intensivists, one of the ICU doctors comes walking by. And so she grabs him and she's like, Hey, this is what happened. Is there anything to explain this other than what we think it is? And he kind of just he made a face like? No, he said, even if you ate ice cream, two hours before your bloodwork, it should not be that high. Yeah. So

Scott Benner 7:21
isn't it interesting, you get to see a whole other side of doctors, like, you know, we're all used to some doctors have great bedside manner. Some don't. But yeah, they don't try to be like that with you guys. Right? Like, you're just like your co workers talking to each other. Oh, yeah.

Lindsay 7:36
Yeah, they're, they don't keep anything back. There'll be brutally honest. So he said that, and I think at that point, I kind of knew I just needed the finger stick to confirm it.

Scott Benner 7:47
Gotcha. Okay. Wow. So then what happens? You go to what do you make a doctor's appointment? Do you? Yeah, so

Lindsay 7:53
I was living with a roommate at the time. So she recommended her primary. So we call their office as soon as they open and they made an appointment for me. And the good thing was they do bloodwork right in their office. So I went in and I explained everything. And he he pretty much said he's like, yeah, it's a strong likelihood that this is type one diabetes. But we're going to send the bloodwork just in case and so he tested for the antibodies, and my agency. And he said, Yeah, most of your bloodwork will probably be back on Monday, but he ended up putting a rush on the labs, and he called me that night and said My agency was 11.8. So I was like, Okay, well, that confirmed it. And then on Monday, he told me the antibodies and that it What was it the GAD antibody was elevated. And yeah, I forget what the other one is. But

Scott Benner 8:43
you had type diabetes. Yeah. So yeah, do they? Alright, so first of all, when you go into that doctor's appointment, do you think you're listened to better by the doctor because you're a nurse?

Lindsay 8:56
Um, I think yes. But also, I think the one downside to being a nurse through all this, is they kind of expect you to know how to handle it. I mean, they were as helpful as they could be. But I pretty much from that point on, figured out almost everything on my own. They kind of helped guide me a little bit, but most of my learning was, I mean, I knew the basics. I knew, Okay, I need insulin to manage my blood sugar, but I my understanding of nutrition was extremely limited. So that was a major learning curve for me. But most of it was on my own learning through I mean, honestly, your podcast was extremely helpful. And YouTube videos and things like that

Scott Benner 9:48
dimension videos, Lindsay, you could have just stopped.

Lindsay 9:52
I mean, honestly, your podcasts did. I mean, being a nurse I know. I know all the bad things that can happen when your blood sugar is not controlled in the long term. So I have been extremely regimented with my blood sugar management. So, um, yeah, I don't I don't know where I was going with that. That's right.

Scott Benner 10:14
I have a question. So you're lucky I'll yeah, we'll save you. Okay. I want to know if you reached out to your aunt uncle.

Lindsay 10:21
So my uncle actually passed away a couple of years ago, he, he pretty much had all of the, all of the side effects of diabetes. So he, in his 20s, he went blind. He had to get your toes amputated, he ended up having a stroke and kidney failure. And then he ended up passing. I want to say that was maybe six or seven years ago how my when he passed he, he was in his 60s. Okay.

Scott Benner 10:50
Yeah. At what age

Lindsay 10:53
909? Around nine. All right, yeah. So then my my aunt, but my aunt is doing well. She says she's the younger sibling. She was diagnosed at seven. So with my uncle, it was kind of like, you know, they didn't know what was going on. He was kind of at the point where he almost died before he was diagnosed. Whereas with her, they recognize the symptoms right away. So I think that was probably somewhat of an advantage to her. Now, obviously, she was diagnosed 50 years ago. So she's she told me the whole transition of diabetes over the years and how it's changed. So I definitely feel compared to what she went through, I do feel extremely lucky because as soon as my doctor told me about continuous glucose monitors, I was like, I need to be on that. Right away. I don't think I can manage this nearly as well without it, which we all know is, is the case. So I was on the FreeStyle Libre first, because it took a while for the insurance to kick in. So that one was cheaper, because I had the cheaper insurance through my job, obviously, because I didn't think I had any health issues. So I had to wait until open enrollment to get the better insurance. And once I did that, then my Dexcom was covered. So I was on the labor I want to say for like, three months, and then I switched to Dexcom.

Scott Benner 12:12
Hi, Lindsay here. I'd like to upgrade please. Yeah, yeah.

Lindsay 12:15
No, I mean, FreeStyle Libre is good, but having to scan all is really the one thing that Oh, and having having it linked to my Apple Watch was huge for my job. Yeah,

Scott Benner 12:26
I meant your insurance. But I take your point about the CGM. Oh, yeah. I meant like, hi. I used to have the one doctor's visit a year plan. I'd like the baby people get sick plan, please. Quickly. Yes.

Lindsay 12:38
Yeah. Well, I think on my old insurance, seeing a specialist, you had to pay like 100 and something out of pocket each visit. And now it's just a $40 copay. So

Scott Benner 12:49
Well, you probably weren't paying anything for it. Like, I remember that. When I was oh, yeah, it might really,

Lindsay 12:55
I mean, even. Even the insurance I have now. I mean, I'm extremely lucky. Because I think because I work for a hospital. The insurance plans are pretty good. But yeah, I think I was paying next to nothing for the old plan. But you know, I'm getting

Scott Benner 13:09
next to nothing, probably too.

Lindsay 13:10
So yeah,

Scott Benner 13:11
I'm sure. So, okay. Like, I went back on the calendar, when you told me the date you were diagnosed, I could like see where I was at, you know, like, where I wasn't. And it was that time where the only person talking to me about, hey, this COVID thing is like a real problem. had been my wife. Because of her job. She kind of is aware of like global health stuff. Right? And she kept telling me like, you know, in China, they're talking about this virus like she and she even told me about it for months. Yeah, I you know, but here, it was, like one of those things like somebody is like, somebody lit a bomb. And everybody's like, what was that? And you know, suddenly we were all aware of it. It I would say inside for days. Wouldn't you say it was like that quick?

Lindsay 13:56
Yeah. So I in February, I went on a trip to Chicago with my friends. And I remember one of my friends asking, oh, should we should we wear masks on the flight? And I remember saying, nah, we'll be fine. They're saying it's just like another flu. And we we didn't and I'm amazed COVID Because then right. It's it's like as soon as Martin all of a sudden we were all talking about it. I mean, because I work in the hospital. I think we probably were talking about it in early March. But even then, it was we know now that it was going on before that it just didn't really hit the US in terms of lockdowns until 10. March.

Scott Benner 14:34
Right. And, Lindsay, I want to remind you to keep looking right into that microphone. Okay. So, don't think you had COVID

Lindsay 14:43
No, I mean, I can't really think of that in the last year and a half thankfully, or right year and a half. We're going on two years now. I've probably been sick one time and I got tested and I was negative and that was like a 24 hour. Kind of not Got my butt and then the next day I was fine. Yeah,

Scott Benner 15:02
no, no, I was just wondering, do you have any other autoimmune issues? Or have you begun to look into whether or not you do?

Lindsay 15:08
No, not that I know of. I mean, all my all my lab works good. I don't really have anything else that would make me concerned, I think when I was working nightshift, it's funny, a lot of people asked me, Did you have any symptoms, because you know, a lot of my friends are nurses, so they know, symptoms leading up to diagnosis. And one of the symptoms I definitely noticed was that maybe like, the six months before diagnosis, I was tired all time. But the thing that's tough with that is I worked night shift, so I just assumed it was that. And I remember telling my friends yeah, I don't know how much longer I can keep up with nightshift. Because I was just like, on my days off, even if I got enough sleep, I was exhausted. Did that was? I'm sorry? Yeah. Did Yeah, that's okay.

Scott Benner 15:57
Did you spend any time as a child or as a young adult worrying that you were gonna get diabetes? Because your aunt uncle had it? I'm honestly not really. Okay. Nobody talks about

Lindsay 16:07
I think that was? Yeah, I think because they say it's usually a parent or grandparent, if they have it, you're more likely or a sibling. But none of my siblings have it. My parents don't have it. i My grandparents didn't have it. So I didn't think that that like secondary link, I didn't think it was likely. And when you're in school, like for nursing school, they, they kind of go by that old idea that people are mostly diagnosed as children. So I actually my mom is funny, she, she always says, Oh, you got to be careful about what you eat. Before the diagnosis. She's like, you gotta be careful about what you eat. Like, don't eat too much sugar, because diabetes runs in the family. And I said, Mom, it type one runs in the family, I would have had it by now. And and that has nothing to do with what you eat. So I remember saying like, Oh, yeah, I would have had that by now. Like, you get that as a kid. So yeah,

Scott Benner 17:04
you can't get cocky in the third quarter. Lindsay, you got it? Yeah,

Lindsay 17:07
I know. I was my mistake. I really brought this upon myself.

Scott Benner 17:11
Oh, my gosh. How about now looking back at your other close family members? Do any of them have like thyroid? Celiac? No eczema, anybody? Bipolar? Anything like that? No. Interesting. Hey, you guys just get the diabetes. Okay. Yeah. Fair enough. What a what a family plan you guys out there? So what's it been? Like? I mean, what was the I guess my first thought would be the adjustment to the regimen. But it occurs to me to ask you about your job too. Because what was it like trying to learn how to manage while you were nursing?

Lindsay 17:50
So I, I was lucky because so I worked. I worked as nightshift football at the time, I had been in that position, I worked as a floor nurse for like two years. And then I had been in this float position for maybe like eight months at that point. And so I, as soon as I was diagnosed, I was like, Okay, I can't stay on night shift anymore, because this is going to be something that's going to take a while for me to figure out. And it's probably not a good idea to do an on HF. So I reached out to my manager, and I explained the situation to him. So he's, but I told him, I said, you know, if I if I switch to day shift, I'd want to have some kind of orientation, because I hadn't worked day shift since I was a new grad. And it is, it is a different pace. And to do it in football, where you're you're pretty much placed wherever they need you in the hospital would have been very challenging. So he said, Well, you know, COVID is happening. Now, it's might not be a good time for somebody to take on an Oriente because we were, you know, we were starting to see an uptick of COVID cases. So he said, I'm going to temporarily put you on this, the cardiac floor, just until we kind of until COVID kind of dies down and we get a handle on this. So they kept me on the cardiac floor for maybe like three months, and I ended up just really liking the people there. I kind of told them all about the diagnosis, and they were all really supportive. So I ended up deciding to just stay there. So that's where I am now. So my, my manager, my co workers, they've been so helpful through all of it. So working through it, and they've helped limit my exposure to COVID. So a lot of times like they would try not to give me the COVID patients if it was possible. So that was extremely, extremely helpful. But it I think, actually the part that was probably the most challenging was the fact that I so I was living in a house with a roommate at the time, so I couldn't see my family like we weren't seeing anybody. I couldn't see my family. I couldn't see my friends. I had just stayed it started dating my boyfriend in February and For the first like, two or three months of COVID, the only time we'd see each other was outside with masks on. So I could barely see him too. So it was really just my roommate and I because she was also a nurse, just in isolation with each other for a couple months. And so I kind of felt like I was on my own to figure it out. And you have questions? Yeah.

Scott Benner 20:21
So too wrapped around this idea. So you were newly dating a person as you were diagnosed? Yes. How much of the diagnosis did you let him in on at that time?

Lindsay 20:33
Oh, I told him the whole thing. The day that I came home from work after checking my blood sugar, I called him freaking out about it. And the first thing he said was, See, I knew you were too sweet for your own good. Like, I was like, now's not the time. And he was like, I know. I know. I was funny, though. But, um,

Scott Benner 20:55
how long? He was together at that point.

Lindsay 20:58
So we actually knew each other in college, when we were both like 19 We had been, like, not we hadn't really dated, but we were talking for a little bit. You know, how college kids do it these days. And then we kind of just drifted apart because I, I got really busy with school. So now fast forward, we reconnected. So it was winter like November of 2019. Yeah, so we had been like talking back and forth for maybe like two months. And then we started hanging out and then in February we like officially started dating. And then it so this happened not even a month after we started dating.

Scott Benner 21:40
Hi, Lindsay. I'm gonna try to be delicate here. started hanging out. Does that mean? Naked? No,

Lindsay 21:46
no, just No, no, no, no, it does not. So then started dating? Does going on dates. Yes. Going on date. Okay, so started dating

Scott Benner 21:54
means naked. So in February. I'm just trying to figure out if you guys were having sex before COVID came and I didn't want to ask it that.

Lindsay 22:02
No, no. Oh, my God, my mom, it's gonna listen to

Scott Benner 22:07
this. Listen, your mom imagines you have sex. I'm just trying to figure out like, literally what I want to know is, are the two of you standing outside with masks on in a situation where you've been together, and now you're scared to be together? Or that you haven't been together yet? And you're like, God, I guess we'll hang out because we were so close to having sex. Just wait to see when this COVID thing breaks?

Lindsay 22:29
No, no, we were we were hanging out. So.

Scott Benner 22:33
Okay, now we're getting to, did the hangers keep happening through the COVID? Or did you pause it? No, he paused it for responsible young people.

Lindsay 22:43
For almost three months. I mean, he was he was at home living with his family too. So you know, there, everybody was just so afraid of COVID We were afraid of, oh, I work in a hospital. You know, what if I bring it home, and then I give it to him? And then he gives it to his whole family? And that's why I didn't see my family because I was like, what if I bring it to them? And they were talking about people being asymptomatic and spreading it. So I'm like, what if I haven't, and I don't even know,

Scott Benner 23:13
your long way, Lindsey, I would have at your age. Been like it probably won't kill us, Lindsay.

Lindsay 23:22
Yeah, I mean, that's, that's how I feel now. I mean, we're lucky we have vaccines now that that's an option for people. But

Scott Benner 23:30
you're missing my point. I don't think COVID would have stopped me from having sex. No. I can't imagine I have a story about mono that I can't tell on here. But I'm pretty sure it wouldn't stop me that or at least stop me from like, you know, mentioning it incessantly. Like every 35 minutes or something like that. Anyway, but that's, I do Joking aside, I really did want to know what happened there. That is really, I mean, it's an exemplary thing that you guys had started a relationship and you were like, Okay, well, we'll wait. But then how long do you wait, because, I mean, at some point, at some point, you must have been like, oh my god, like this COVID thing is never gonna work. Yeah,

Lindsay 24:17
that's exactly what happened. We were just like, Okay. Are we both okay with the risk? We're okay with the risk, okay, cuz nothing's and it was it was going into June. So, like, we were going into the summer and they were saying, you know, cases are probably going to go down in the summer. So we were like, Okay, are we willing to take the risk if one of us gets COVID? Yes. Okay. Let's just,

Scott Benner 24:41
here's my last weird question, and then we'll move on, I promise. Were you ever intimate and masked? Ah, Mmm hmm. That's a good question. Can you not remember

Lindsay 24:59
Oh, Um, well, I mean, think about it now, or you don't think, um, maybe once or twice, like when we were kind of when we were close to, we're close to the point where we were like, okay, screw this maybe once or twice, but you consider if you consider intimate like we would, we would hang out outside, we would bring a TV outside and play video games and like, sit next to each other. And maybe hold hands, not what I meant by internet. I know. I know. But I mean, time.

Scott Benner 25:33
Okay, I'm good. I just wanted to understand. It's yeah, it was,

Lindsay 25:37
it was a very weird time to be in a new relationship.

Scott Benner 25:41
I mean, that's my point. It really Yeah. And so it persevered. Because? Well, I know that it's got nothing to do about diabetes. But do you think that you became more intellectually intertwined? Because what you could do was talk, like, Did it help build a relationship?

Lindsay 26:01
Yeah, I think so. And he was really, really helpful when it came to just like being there for me when I was trying to figure out the diabetes stuff. I think it took at least minimum a year before I started to feel like I somewhat knew what I was doing. Yeah, I was doing injections for maybe four months before I switched to I'm on Omnipod. Now. So that was challenging. I mean, injections were challenging. The control is not nearly the same as the pumps and in my experience, but so the

Scott Benner 26:33
he learned about diabetes along with you. Yeah.

Lindsay 26:36
Yeah. He always asked questions. He has the Dexcom follow on his phone. So if I'm, if I'm ever low, he'll text me and be like, Hey, you had a snack? Right? Like, yeah, so he, he's definitely very. He's great. He's very helpful.

Scott Benner 26:52
Are you gonna marry this boy?

Lindsay 26:55
I don't know. We'll see. It's not up to me. I mean, it is to me.

Scott Benner 27:02
I'm the father of a daughter is only up to you. That boy will just stand there and be lucky if you decide to stay with him. And that's that. Your whole generation is about equality. Yeah, you're right. No, that's true. Take your power. You know what I mean? Yeah. Do what my wife does just look me in the face and act like I'm lucky to be around her and I go, okay, all right. Thanks. That's pretty

Lindsay 27:29
Yeah, that's that's pretty much it.

Scott Benner 27:33
That part out loud. All right. Well, listen to your mother who's probably not listening anymore. Sounds like Lindsey is like a smart like reasonable person. You know, and I want to know about the nursing aspect of diabetes. So if you listen to the podcast, and you do you may have heard me say that some of the type one parents who are nurses seem to have a lot of trouble giving themselves over to how diabetes actually works versus how they thought it worked from the hour that they talked about it in nursing school or the way they handle patients in hospitals.

As I mentioned earlier, just the other day, a box arrived from us med it was full of Omni pods for my daughter, Arden. I got them from us med Can I be honest, I switched to us med because they became a sponsor and I wanted to understand how their process worked. But also it was an easy switch to make because the because the place that I used to get Arden's diabetes supplies from was not easy to work with. And they weren't really very reliable. They'd say they do things and then those things would never happen. But so far with us med nothing but blue skies. As a matter of fact, we had such a good experience with him with our Omni pods that we just switched Arden's Dexcom supplies to us, Matt as well. And by my request, I went through the process just the same way that you will. No special treatment, it wasn't like hey, help the guy with the podcast out I just went through the process just the way you guys do. Go to us med.com forward slash juice box or call 888-721-1514 Do that to get your free benefits check. And once you know you're all good with us med here's what you're gonna get from them, an A plus rating from the Better Business Bureau. They accept Medicare nationwide and over 800 private insurers. They carry everything from insulin pumps and diabetes testing supplies to the latest and CGM like FreeStyle Libre two and the Dexcom G six. US med always provides 90 days worth of supplies and they always give you fast and free shipping. If you want better service and better care, check out us med.com forward slash s juice box with over 1 million diabetes customer service since 1996. US med is the fastest growing tandem distributor nationwide. They are the number one rated distributor in Dexcom. Customer satisfaction surveys, the number one distributor for FreeStyle Libre systems number one distributor from the pod dash, and on and on, go find out, go find out if they take your insurance, they probably do us med.com forward slash juice box or call 888-721-1514. When you head over to Omni pod.com forward slash juice box. You can read this stuff at the top. There's some stuff there about me but just skip that part. I'm not important, you want to scroll down to where you can get started. You want to scroll down right under the purple part that says want to test drive the pot. Below that there are some orange tabs to check on. First one says check my Omni pod coverage. Here's what Omni pod says right here on the website. Before you get started on on the pod, our team will take a close look at your insurance benefits. We'll check your coverage for both the Omni pod five system and on the pod dash. So you can see all of your options that nice, and there's a little thing you fill out underneath. If that's what you want to do. You can also click on the tab that says Omni pod dash 30 day free trial, the Omni pod team will check your eligibility for a free 30 day trial of the Omni pod dash, they'll take a close look at your benefits and see what your insurance will cover after the trial is complete. And while they're at it, they'll check your coverage for the other Omni pod products, again, so that you can have choice, fill out a little bit of information and you're on your way. And if you still have questions, click on the tab that says talk to an omni pod specialist. When you enter your information, one of the Omni pod specialists will call you back in 24 to 48 hours on the pod.com Ford slash juicebox for full safety risk information and free trial terms and conditions. You can also visit omnipod.com forward slash juicebox.

Lindsay 32:17
Yeah, I, I think experiencing it is completely different than than being on the other side being a nurse the understanding of diabetes, so I work in a hospital. So we get we get all kinds of different patients. So you're not we're doing diabetes 24/7. And we're managing it on an acute scale. So like, Okay, we pretty much manage it with a sliding scale. So if your blood sugar's above a certain number, then you give insulin and we give insulin like right when the food comes. And it's very temporary. And now I'd say almost always poorly managed. But you know, most of the time patients are only there for a couple days. So you can tell the patients that come in who are on top of their management, because they'll see the numbers that they have in the hospital, and they'll be like, Oh my God, that's way too high. And sometimes I tell them, I'm like, Yeah, honestly, I mean, you're here for a short period of time. Like, obviously, if it's really the numbers are really high. I'll see if the doctor can adjust the insulin, but they're very hesitant to give high amounts of insulin because they're more afraid of lows than they are of highs. Like they're happy with blood sugars in the 200. So they don't love but they're okay with. Yeah, but if a blood sugar is 60, give them juice, like you need to push dextrose I'm like, Alright, relax. I've been at 60. I mean, obviously, this patient is very symptomatic. That's a different story. But a lot of times, a lot of times the patient will just be like, they're fine. They'll just be sitting there. And all you have to do is give them a juice or a snack or something and they're fine, but other people will freak out. And I'm like I've I've been there so many times.

Scott Benner 34:02
No generation, there's no consideration for the idea that higher blood sugars impede healing.

Lindsay 34:09
Yeah, I, from my experience. Yeah, most of the time. They're okay with blood sugars. I mean, even like less than two like 150 to 200. They're definitely I mean, we will treat that if it's before dinner before a meal if the blood sugar is 150 to 200. We will treat it with insulin but it's usually a very low amount and it's usually just enough to cover that blood sugar. It might be a different story if they were a type one diabetic and they take mealtime insulin. But again, in that case, it's like Okay, five units with meals. It's not like when you're on a pump and based on what you're eating, that's how much insulin you give yourself. So unless the patient is super on top of their management, which a lot of people aren't, the blood sugars tend to sit on the high side. And yeah, and I think about I thought all the time I'm like, I mean, I had a, I had a patient one time come in whose blood sugars. He was a type one. But he was he was like 89. And his blood sugars were like three and 400. And they only had him on short acting insulin. I was like, What? What are you? I'm like, This guy's gonna die.

Scott Benner 35:20
Yeah. Is it fair to say that doctors in a hospital setting are only focused on the thing? That's their responsibility?

Lindsay 35:27
Is it? Yeah, I think most of the time, it's, you know, whatever the patient came in with their primary focus is to treat that. And then the diabetes is like, Okay, well, they have diabetes. So we need to give them this, but like, our main focus is their primary

Scott Benner 35:43
idea of like, well, they have diabetes, but they must have an endocrinologist or a doctor who deals with that. They're here for me, like, you know what it reminds me of, I don't know if you ever saw, there's this video of, again, NASCAR pulls into, you know, the pits, and everyone's doing their job. And then the thing catches fire on the corner. But the guy on the opposite side doing the wheel never stops doing the wheel. He's my responsibility, like, the whole thing's literally on fire. And he's like, Hey, listen, I'm putting this wheel back on. And, and I think of the doctors like that, like, you know, you come in and you know, I don't know, you have a I've, I've showed up at the hospital with a concern. That doctor is then attached to the concern. They come in the cars on fire, but they're like, I don't care. I'm here because of the broken arm. And, you know, that kind of thing. But the problem is, is that like, wouldn't it make sense, not that you and I are going to fix the world together, Lindsey. But wouldn't it make sense that if someone came in on insulin that they'd be assigned an endocrinologist as well to help them manage while they were there?

Lindsay 36:45
Yeah, and most of the time, they're not. Yeah, I'd say, Yeah, nine times out of 10. And it's hard, because usually they will, they'll cancel endocrinology, if either somebody's a new diabetic or, like sometimes if they're poorly controlled, but most of the time they don't. And again, it just goes back to whatever the patient came in for. That's their primary focus. They're trying to treat that problem and then get them out. But

Scott Benner 37:15
at what point do you think poorly controlled comes into their mind?

Lindsay 37:20
You mean, the patient or the

Scott Benner 37:21
dog? Like, at what point does the staff say? Well, we have to do something about this blood sugar? It's not in the two hundreds, right?

Lindsay 37:29
Um, sometimes it depends. If Yeah, if they're, if they're, I feel like most of the time, if they're like mid to high, mid to hundreds and higher, people will definitely say something. If they're consistently like low to hundreds, and sometimes the nurse will say something, I guess it just depends on the person. If they're sitting like 150s to 200, then definitely not

Scott Benner 37:57
put you in the position of the patient say you end up in the hospital. I hope that never happens to you, but like, say you do. Would you Would the first thing you say is, hey, I have type one diabetes, and I'll be managing my blood sugar.

Lindsay 38:07
Yes, 100%. Okay. Um, the good thing is, is they do as long as like, as long as I wasn't there for DKA. If I was there for some other problem, they do allow, if you're on a pump, they allow you to manage it as long as like you're doing a decent job managing it. They allow patients to wear their pumps. Now, pump, you have to really be you have to really know what you're doing to beat to stay on your pump, which I obviously assume that if you're on a pump, you do but because the nursing staffs knowledge of insulin pumps is extremely limited, because most of the time we see type two diabetics, and they're usually on induction. So I before diagnosis, I did not know anything about insulin pumps, I didn't understand, you know, carbs to insulin to carb ratio, I didn't understand that Basal insulin, it all makes sense. Like, it's very easy to, I mean, at least the Basal as the long acting, how they are kind of the same. That's pretty easy to understand, but because the hospital nurses don't really see insulin pumps that often. It's always funny. Anytime somebody comes in with a pump, now they'll they'll ask me like, what they should do. But usually they have no idea what to do with it.

Scott Benner 39:30
Okay, um, is it fair to say I've had this said to me in the past by a nurse that I have a fair amount of the people you see who have diabetes who end up in care at hospitals are not people who, generally speaking keep their blood sugar somewhere between 70 and 140 Most of the time,

Lindsay 39:52
and yeah, I, I agree with that.

Scott Benner 39:56
And so does it end up being that situation sort of like that? There's a study, I remember when I was younger that after 10 years of being a police officer, you start having this kind of like unconscious feeling that everyone's a criminal, because the people that you deal with all day are, are breaking the law. And so even when you get into your personal life, you can be like distrustful of people. And I'm wondering if that happens similarly, in nursing, where if you see, you know, 100 people with diabetes and 80 of them, you know, have a onesies that are, you know, really high, and they don't appear to understand the situation, if you don't start just assuming that that's what everybody's doing. You know what I mean? Then you get somebody new their roles in and you'll, you'll be distrustful of them, they say, Don't worry, I can take care of this. Because what, what if what they really mean is I don't take care of this, just don't worry about it.

Lindsay 40:45
You know, it is it is interesting to see what different people's understanding of blood sugar control is, because I've met a few people with type one diabetes, and to see like their goal ranges, compared to mine is and like, you know, everybody's at a different stage of their understanding of their own health and diabetes. But I just, it's so interesting to see how like different people understand blood sugar control. I mean, even so, my aunt, she, you know, she's been diabetic for 50 years. And she told me that her endocrinologist who she's been with for a really long time, says that so she she aims to keep her agency between 6.5 and seven. And her I want to say her endocrinologist tells her that anything lower than that is too low. And I tried to, I tried to explain to her I said it. Yeah, if, if you're having crazy highs and lows, like spikes and drops, yeah, absolutely. Because then you're probably low all the time. But if you're in your goal range within a certain period of time, like if you're 80%, in range and above, and your range is like mine, mine right now is 70 to 150. Trying, I had it, I had it tighter than that, but I was having some issues with lows, so I had to loosen the reins a little bit. But, um, so like, if that's your goal range, and you're in range, like 85% of the time and you're a one sees in the fives then that that is a good thing. Yeah. So I think I think she kind of, well, no note of that.

Scott Benner 42:23
You know, earlier in the conversation, I asked about other autoimmune issues, and you said, No, my labs are okay. And that's the first thing I thought to say then, and it wasn't the right time in the conversation. But I what I wanted to say was in range doesn't mean okay. Like with everything. So like, using thyroid as an example, I think in ranges up to 10 for TSH. But you're going to have thyroid symptoms over like 2.1. And yeah, it's an indicator that you need thyroid hormone to doctors who particularly understand how to manage thyroid to like a general practitioner, they would look at it and go, Well, that's in range. Because the range says, you know, I mean, look, I don't want to like I'm not crapping on doctors, but the numbers green, it's okay, is pretty much what they do when they look at a lot of those labs. And so if you're, you know, if you're thinking about your health that way, like in range instead of what's optimal. And I do take your point earlier, you were very careful about saying that people find themselves in different in a different parts of their journey on this different parts of their understanding, like, I wouldn't want to take somebody who's had diabetes for three minutes and be like, Listen, I need your blood sugar to be between 70 and 140. Or you're making some giant mistake. But if you've had diabetes now for a year, or two, or three, or five, or 10, or 20, and you don't understand the reality about where you keep your blood sugar, then that goes beyond beyond. Well, some people aren't ready to hear it. And now we're saying we're not telling people the truth so that they're more comfortable. In the short.

Lindsay 44:02
Yeah. And I think that's it's important because the people who think that higher blood sugars are better are the ones who end up having those long term complications.

Scott Benner 44:14
So yeah, it's just kind of stands to reason. It's, it's sort of like I was listening. I wasn't listening to my own podcast this morning. But an episode came out this morning and I flipped it on to make sure about the audio. Like I remember thinking, I wanted to make sure the audio was okay on this. And so when it actually popped up in my by player, I want to listen to it. And I kind of just jumped forward in it a couple of times, and I hit on a spot where I remember this woman, lovely woman, 60 years old, had diabetes for 50 years, I think. And she just talks about like, I don't have any complications, but she recognizes that it might be lucky that she doesn't. You know what I mean? Like because she's had it for so long and the management was the way it was back then. She could have just dumb luck to her I ended the situation and it also doesn't mean that it's 65. This isn't going to start becoming a problem for at some point, like, it's just, I don't know what I'm saying exactly. I think we get into this vibe of like, well, it's okay. So it's okay. So don't think about it. Yeah, you know what I mean? And I don't want to walk around everyday being worried. But I don't know how we can. I don't know how we can leave somebody's a one C at seven and a half and tell them this is great, because at least you're not low. You know, because at some point your life odds are, it's not going to be okay.

Lindsay 45:34
Yeah, I mean, that's, unfortunately, I think it's just a variation of how different providers approach diabetes, you know, so you have, you have to hope you have a good endocrinologist who is very aware of that, and at least makes their patients aware of, you know, well, that wants to be an athlete with

Scott Benner 45:57
you, right, because like, even in the emergency situation, like we were talking about earlier, you know, the doctor comes in the room, and, you know, they don't want your blood sugar to be 60. But they don't mind if it's 220. Is that That's a person who isn't looking to be an ally with you in this situation. They're not looking to be involved. Yeah, I mean,

Lindsay 46:17
yeah, it, I think it's just unless, when it comes to like acute care, unless if it's the primary issue, it's not at like the forefront of their mind. So

Scott Benner 46:30
yeah, I agree. I understand. I'm not and I'm not down, I'm trying to draw a parallel between the way people's minds work. Like, you know, if you go into your regular Endo, and they're accustomed to saying to people that 6525275 is fine, then they're not going to see your seven, two and do anything about it. They're gonna wait until you're seven to seven, eight, and then go, Hey, you gotta get a handle on this, instead of talking about it back then with you. And, and how much of that is because they don't know how to help you. And that's, that's kind of what I wanted to ask you about? Like, how did you find? Like, I don't know what your situation is right. Now. Will you tell me what your one SE is?

Lindsay 47:10
I think my last one was 5.3. I've been Yeah, I've been in the five since since diagnosis. I think maybe the first two a onesies were probably more of like the I mean, I think generally, I've had pretty good control that but I think in the beginning, being on injections and trying to figure out the pump, I probably was having a lot more lows. And I think that that probably, like I think one of my agencies came back to 4.8. And my doctor was like, Are you having a lot of lows? And I was like, actually, it's probably because of that. Right? Like, I think so maybe the first two are probably because I was having a lot of lows. Now. I think I have a much better handle on that. Yeah. And I think and they think it's just because me knowing how detrimental high blood sugars are. I was so like, determined not to have blood sugar spikes that I just kept, like giving myself too much insulin. So now I've kind of relaxed and I'm like, okay,

Scott Benner 48:09
when did you find out podcast?

Lindsay 48:12
Um, a while ago, I want to say it's probably was probably a year now, maybe a little less than a year ago.

Scott Benner 48:22
Does that hold I NS time was that around holding Anton.

Lindsay 48:27
Um, it was probably after that. But, um, I just, I think for me, I was just at a point where, you know, again, like, because of the pandemic, I really wasn't seeing my friends. Like, even like seeing my boyfriend who's limited. I wasn't seeing my family. I was figuring this out on my own. I was like, I need I need something. I need some kind of like outlet something to help me figure this out without losing my mind. So I just went on podcast, like the podcast app and just search diabetes podcast, and yours was one of the first ones that came up. And that was it. Screw the others. Well, I know you said there are others. But I haven't I don't

Scott Benner 49:09
believe. But I hear what you're saying. No, I have to tell you that during that time, the prevailing idea amongst people who make podcasts was that, oh, I think only you know, people get ideas in their head, like people listen in their cars. And now no one's driving to work. So I'm not going to put a bunch of effort into making podcasts because nobody will listen to them. I was like, I made more

Lindsay 49:32
slight Yeah, yeah. I was gonna say people are stuck in their houses, too, though.

Scott Benner 49:36
Yeah, I was like, this completely opposite. I was like, people have more time and they need content. And I was like, I think that's when I went to for a week, like during COVID Because I was doing three and I was like, huh, so many extra days that could use podcasts. And I just, you know, and it's held up and people still, you know, downloading in so I just didn't see it that way. So prior to the podcast, is when you had the lower a onesies like and then did you find stability? Like what I guess I'm trying to find out like what information was instantly valuable to you? And then how did you build off of it?

Lindsay 50:15
Um, I would definitely say Pre-Bolus thing was huge, because my endocrinologist did not mentioned Pre-Bolus at all. To me, and well, so when I, the first day that I saw my primary after I like knew about the diabetes, so because he's a primary physician, he probably an adult primary, he deals more with type two. I think most primary care physicians do. Yeah. And so we were in the office, and my parents came, and he was telling me about, like, what foods I should avoid what foods to eat. And he was like, Yeah, I tend to be, I tend to be strict with my management, I think you should have about 20 grams of carbs a day. And so, yeah, at the time, I didn't know, I didn't know what that meant. I'm like, I don't know how many carbs or food. So then I get home. Or you just look at a single slice of bread being 20 grams of carbs, and you're like, Oh, heck, that's it for the whole day. I'm gonna die. I'm not gonna do it. I can't do it. So that for the first week, I made an appointment with a nutritionist. And the first week before that appointment, I think all I ate was like shrimp, chicken, broccoli. Like that was it? And I was, I think I was like, depressed for that week, because I was like this, is this my life. And because they don't, you know, in nursing school, they briefly highlight nutrition as a whole, they don't really talk about it in relation to diabetes. So I didn't know. And even in the hospital, I'm like, Okay, we put them on a diabetic diet. I don't really know what that means other than like, don't give them sugar.

Scott Benner 52:00
The diabetic diets in hospitals are ridiculous. My mom has been in the hospital a lot lately. My mom has type two that she controls with, you know, how she eats. And, excuse me, hold on one second. And I'm in there the other day, seeing my mom, she's in like rehab now. And she's anyway. And so there's a like, what it looks to be like a crawler. Like it's a giant, like, jelly filled donut with powdered sugar on top. And it was like, and I'm like, Mom, what is this? She goes, I don't know, they sent it up. I'm like, do not eat that. And she, she goes, I wouldn't. And I was like, Wait, and I looked at her menu and it says diabetic and what it turns out as they pick a card number. And as long as you're under the card number you can have anything on the menu.

Lindsay 52:49
Yeah, that, that. And it's funny, even now I don't really I didn't really know what the diabetic diet meant. Other than like, no concentrated sweets. But that makes a lot of sense. Because, like, I have patients who are able to order, like the bags of chocolate chip cookies, and I always was like, I never really looked into it. I was like, Are they sugar free cookies, like,

Scott Benner 53:10
my mom would have eaten that thing, whatever that was, her blood sugar would have been in the two hundreds for the rest of the day. She doesn't she's not on insulin. You know what I mean? And I was like, Mom Do not eat that. And she's like, and she looked at me a little side eyed. Like, I wasn't gonna eat the whole thing, but I might have taken a bite of it. And so, but yeah, that's just another idea. So okay, so you figured out Pre-Bolus thing first? That was the biggest kind of thing for you.

Lindsay 53:39
Yeah, that was Pre-Bolus thing. And then. So after I talked with my nutritionist, he said 20 grams of carbs a day is best. There's no way that's not sustainable. And that's not realistic. You can have. He said in the beginning, a goal of like 35 to 45 per meal is definitely doable. Just in the beginning while you're figuring out yourself. So that was Yeah, yeah. So that was like the first like, sigh of relief. And then, and then listening to your podcast and hearing all the different ways people eat and like, generally, you can eat what you want was also very helpful to hear. So it's kind of like the combination of the two I was like, okay, I can figure this out and how you said like, it's kind of trial and error with with certain foods like, Okay, if you want to eat a bagel, you try dosing a certain way. And then if you have a spike, or you see that in a couple hours, you have another spike, then you say, Okay, this is how we have to tackle it next time, like, kind of taking mental notes of different situations, and not just seeing the spike and being like, oh, I can never have this again.

Scott Benner 54:46
But yeah, just bailing on immediately. Like there's going to be trial and error for certain. Absolutely. And I don't want to start a great shrimp debate here. But I'm having shrimp for lunch and I'm excited about it. But that I'm an old man and you're like a person that prime of your life. So I get what you're saying about.

Lindsay 55:03
I mean, I like strength. But if I had to just live on shrimp and like no carb foods it, that's a different story. I think I would have grown to hate it.

Scott Benner 55:12
No, I understand. I just made me feel bad about my lunch. I was like, so you're like, I just eat shrimp all the time. I was like, I was excited about my show. Oh my god. Okay, so I know you're not thinking about having children yet? Because, you know, yeah, you're young. But does it pop into your head? Ever?

Lindsay 55:36
i Yeah, I've definitely thought about, just in general, what? It's going to be like to be pregnant. Like, I, I watched this one girl on YouTube who went through like being pregnant and like having a child I started well, I watched her videos, like, a while back, but then she just had a kid. And I, I know the management's gonna be so different. And I'm, like, a little nervous, but I don't think it would, like, hold me back from wanting.

Scott Benner 56:09
Yeah, and you're not Do you think ever about like, Oh, what if my kids have diabetes?

Lindsay 56:15
Um, yeah, I do sometimes. But, I mean, the good thing is obviously having it I know, having it and being a nurse, I know, our two assets to be like things that will help but I also know how different it's gonna be. It's, it's, I'm sure a different. I mean, I've heard all the people on your podcast who have kids, it's, it's completely different. When you're managing somebody else. I feel like it's probably scarier. Because, like, whatever I'm doing to myself, it's my own body, you know. So if I'm giving myself a certain amount of insulin, and I like sometimes I can feel I'm going low before it even comes up on my Dexcom. So I know how to treat it before it reaches that point. But, you know, if you have a kid there, they're not always telling you or I know kids sneak snacks, and it's the opposite. So I know it's probably going to be a lot more challenging, but hopefully my kids don't, but if they do, I mean, it is what it is. I can't

Scott Benner 57:15
tell if your mom's gonna be excited that I was like, You're too young to have kids or if she's gonna be like, Hey, I'm working on Well, I get a grandchild here.

Lindsay 57:23
I'm, I'm the youngest of five. So your longest? Yeah, my my one sister's married. So she's first.

Scott Benner 57:33
See mom, she can I ask comfortable questions at the beginning, but I came back around the other side. That's, that's right. It's actually the lens. He's not gonna have any babies. yet. She's still building her career and figuring out if she likes this boy and all that stuff.

Lindsay 57:46
Yeah, I'll take a dog first. Yeah,

Scott Benner 57:49
I'd rather have a kid than a dog. But I hear what you're saying,

Lindsay 57:51
really? I've always wanted a dog. So that's like number one on my list. But right now,

Scott Benner 57:58
it's not the dog. It's the responsibility around the dog and that you're on the schedule and not your schedule all of a

Lindsay 58:04
sudden. And that's exactly why I don't have one right now. Like, you

Scott Benner 58:08
try to sleep in one morning and you wake up and your first panic, like, you're like, Oh, I slept a little I'm relaxed. And you have this panic. Thought about the dog hasn't been out. And yeah, I'm just

Lindsay 58:17
I when I graduated college, my first thought was, I want a dog. Like I was thinking about getting one as soon as I graduated. But I'm glad my voice of reason said just wait. And now. And now. I'm like, Yeah, okay. I mean, I love dogs, but I don't. I don't need one right now.

Scott Benner 58:35
What is? I mean, you're probably seeing friends again, I would imagine stuff. It's like, December of 2021. And so while we're recording this, so what's it What was it? Like? Kind of? Like, is there kind of a coming out that you do with diabetes with your friend group? Where did that happen kind of online? And not in person? Yeah,

Lindsay 58:58
it has it happened online. Like I told everybody around, kind of around when it was happening. But it was it was tough. I mean, I feel like most people like when they're diagnosed during a normal time, can use their friends kind of as a distraction, or like somebody to talk to and like, same thing like with family, it could be with your family, but the most I could do is be with them over the phone. And even that was not really like a ton. So I think for me, that was probably the hardest part is those first three months, which are hardest part of figuring out diabetes and feeling like I didn't really have anybody to distract me or keep me company. The whole focus was on COVID Like everybody, you know, the whole healthcare heroes, and everybody was like, praising us for taking care of COVID patients, like the whole focus was on COVID

Scott Benner 59:53
things happening and you're like, Yo, my pancreas stopped working. Like

Lindsay 59:56
yeah, I mean, it was too. It was too You it was just a double whammy. It was two really horrible things happening at the same time.

Scott Benner 1:00:04
Did you feel extra isolated? Do you think?

Lindsay 1:00:08
Yeah, I, I do think so. Most, like COVID was definitely the reason for that. But I think if If COVID wasn't happening at that time, I probably would have spent a lot more time with friends and family just to help me like, get through that part, like, figuring out figuring out how to eat. I mean, having like, diabetes really affects your perception on food. Like, it's taken me a long time to feel comfortable eating what I want, and even even then, like, I'll hesitate to eat certain things, because I know what it's going to do to my blood sugar. So that was, that was a challenge for me. I mean, it still is now like, certain foods, I still, I just avoid, because I'm like, I know, I know what it's gonna do my blood sugar, there's no point,

Scott Benner 1:00:56
I have a question about that. When you say I know what it's gonna do to my blood sugar. Are you more concerned more focused with your long term health, or your short term, how you feel when you think about, I don't know if this is worth eating, because my blood sugar is gonna go up.

Lindsay 1:01:12
I'd say both. So, I mean, I've always been somewhat health conscious, like my whole life, just in terms of like, eating healthy and exercise and things like that. So I've definitely become more health conscious. Since this has happened. Like, um, I definitely eat better than I used to. But, um, like, I don't know, my insulin needs change a lot over, you know, at different times, like, and I think part of that, as you know, has to do with like, being a female and having your period, like, during my period, I am much more insulin resistant than I am, like, as soon as my periods over my needs drop instantly. So it's trying to, like my management with certain foods changes. So sometimes I'll avoid certain foods just because, like, I might not give myself enough insulin, and then my sugar spikes super high or Yeah, bagels, you know,

Scott Benner 1:02:07
you know, tomorrow, I'm, Jenny and I are doing a pro tip about periods. And oh, I went online and ask people questions, their questions are a lot, you know, and it's interesting, because so you're saying during the event itself, your insulin needs are higher?

Lindsay 1:02:25
I think, like leading up to it, and then during my period, yes. And then right after, very shortly after my needs decreased, like I need less insulin.

Scott Benner 1:02:37
Okay. So like, the week before and the week during? Yeah, gotcha. So, and is it a big drop off, or a big increase depending on where you're at.

Lindsay 1:02:48
Um, so I tend to be like, an insulin car ratio, I mean, estimate, I kind of like carb estimate, carb guess I like to call it, I'm usually around like a one to eight. before my period, like during that, like, higher needs time, and then afterwards, it's more like, one to 10 and my Basal usually like, point five, five, the point six, pre period, and then after, like, right now it's point four so much

Scott Benner 1:03:19
you weigh, would you tell me,

Lindsay 1:03:21
like 124, right.

Scott Benner 1:03:25
Yeah, like, it's just, there's so like, seeing people's questions. It's overwhelming. And I guess other things that you might not think about, for women, I mean, women think about it around their periods all the time, but your digestion can slow or speed. It's not uncommon. I got I can't believe I'm saying this, it's not uncommon for you to have diarrhea during your period, right, which I'm sorry, I'm gonna have to agree or disagree, just listen to me talk. And so like, and so that changes how food stays in your system and how it's impacting you want, it's in there. Like, there's a lot of stuff going on that you don't really think about when it's happening. There's a reason for that we're not going to dig into it now. But listen for the Pro Tip series, when I will definitely when I explained to you why you have sometimes have diarrhea during your period, and other really exciting ideas.

Lindsay 1:04:16
It's important and clearly a lot of people have questions. So

Scott Benner 1:04:19
I have a ridiculous job is what I was just thinking. You know, like, I have diabetes, and I want to understand my period, I'm going to go ask a guy who doesn't have diabetes. He's not a medical person. He doesn't have type one, and he's not a woman. Perfect. But

Lindsay 1:04:37
you know what, like, I mean, if your whole life is diabetes, and understanding diabetes, and how it affects different people, sometimes that's even better than just seeing a doctor, you know, because the doctors are unless they have diabetes themselves. They're they're coming from a clinical perspective. So again, like before I was diagnosed as being a nurse in the hospital taking care of diabetic patients, I'm approaching blood sugars on a clinical response of sliding scales. So like, Okay, your blood sugar is 205 You're on a two unit sliding scale. So I'll give you four units for your blood sugar. Yeah. And that's it. I'm not thinking like Pre-Bolus. I'm not thinking, Oh, what if? What if you're eating a high carb meal? Like, do you need more insulin? Like, I'm not thinking any of that? So?

Scott Benner 1:05:26
Well, yeah. On top of that, I mean, you know, in The Avengers movie, when they're getting into a fight in the one guy's like, we have a Hulk. I have a Jenny. So yeah, exactly, exactly. Yeah. But no, I just, it's, it's funny, because I'll put up questions like, Hey, does anybody have any questions about this? Or we're going to be talking about this thing? If anybody wants to throw stuff up? And people do generally, but the one about periods? Man, it like, so many questions came so fast. I think just goes to show, you know what a neat it is to talk about? Because I mean, honestly, no one's going to talk about it. It's just not. I mean, I will, but most people aren't going to you know what I mean? It's not something we'll talk about. Is there anything that we haven't spoken about that you wanted to?

Lindsay 1:06:14
Know, I think we covered a lot. Okay. It's a very easy conversation.

Scott Benner 1:06:18
Yeah. I'm very glad you know why it was easy. And I'm gonna have to bleep a lot of this out, Lindsay, it's because I was able to control myself and not ask you, if you if you resorted to touring COVID face to face. And literally all that's gonna need, I might just have to delete it. But that actually popped into my head because I thought, well, that's what I would do.

Lindsay 1:06:44
I mean, I mean, yeah, you're not you're not breathing on each other. So

Scott Benner 1:06:47
made a lot of what I was thinking about it. And you have to be a little either concerned or impressed that I'm having an ancillary conversation with myself while we're talking. And I'm still involved in the conversation that you and I are having. Yeah, not that right.

Lindsay 1:07:03
Yeah, I will say totally unrelated to that. I going into nursing, I wasn't one of those people who was like, This is my destiny. I've always wanted to be a nurse. Like I, I didn't really want to know what I wanted to do. Going into college, I kind of went for nursing just because I wanted to do something that was on my feet. And I like, I talk a lot. And I liked being around people interested, I figured it's a good profession to go into. And then I kind of went into nursing school like, Well, I hope I hope I like this because it's not an easy program. I was like, I hope I like this, and I'm not putting all this work and just to hate it. But, so I obviously ended up enjoying it and but there's so many things you can do with nursing, like there's so many different directions you can go. So I kind of started out on like in a hospital so that I could get kind of like a broad experience to figure out like what I might want to do in the long term. And now I I feel like so since the diagnosis and like understanding diabetes and understanding how the management is, depending on the doctor could be better. I now I know. I like I really want to go into I want to be a diabetes educator. Like i It's the first time that I'm like, Okay, I I kind of know what I want to do now. So that's, that's one good thing that's come out of all of this is i Well, I mean, there's been there's been good, but one of the one of the good things is now I kind of have a direction to go. And so that's

Scott Benner 1:08:31
really wonderful. That must have been exciting for you. I mean, honestly, if you initially were going I like to stand and talk, I'll be a nurse Well,

Lindsay 1:08:43
I mean, I also did it because I mean I also did it because there's there's so many opportunities in nursing. There's so many, like, nursing degrees. Yeah, so like, there were so many opportunities that I would find something that I really enjoyed. And I you know, I've met a few people since diagnosis who also have diabetes. Actually, one of my co workers was recently well, she was diagnosed around the same time as I was, but she has the Lada diagnosis so it's she's kind of transitioning into the point now where she needs to be on short acting insulin. Yeah. Um, so we've kind of been talking a lot back and forth and I, I just recognize how much I enjoy talking about it with somebody who's also going through it and kind of sharing my experience and helping each other. Like that's like the first time that I or not the first time but it's like one of the few things within nursing that I'm like really passionate about so

Scott Benner 1:09:46
no, that's where I go. I gotta be honest with you. I'm paying for college right now for one person and about to start paying for it for another person. And if I found out that they had made any other decisions based on I like standing and talking, I would have had a stroke. Just like somebody that don't know how they're gonna make money with this when it's over or daddy a paying for it.

Lindsay 1:10:07
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I remember when I went to the open house at the college I went to, and the assistant director, he's like, yeah, if you're sitting in this room, you've probably wanted to be a nurse your entire life. It's in your dream. And I was like, my, like, shoot, am I making the wrong decision?

Scott Benner 1:10:26
I'm looking around, like, Is anyone else having the thoughts I'm having right now.

Lindsay 1:10:31
And, and in nursing school, I want to say maybe half of the people there were of the same mindset as me that they, they were not like, this wasn't their dream, they just it made the most sense for them career wise. And that's why they went in into it. So I ended up being one of those tour guides in college. So whenever they do the open houses while I was there, I after they, the admissions people would talk, I'd like be like, Hey, do you guys have any questions? Just so you know, like, that's not really true. Doesn't have to be your dream,

Scott Benner 1:11:02
a friend of mines daughters about your age, and she's a nurse. And she has been for like, the last year or so. Being a traveling nurse. And yeah, basically just like a gun for hire at hospitals.

Lindsay 1:11:14
And yeah, travel nursing is huge. Right now. They're making

Scott Benner 1:11:17
so much more money and seeing the world. I think she's on her way to Hawaii soon. Like, Yeah, crazy, you know, but you got to really be willing to bop around like, it's not, it's not Yeah,

Lindsay 1:11:27
I was gonna say like, I think every nurse is thought about that. But I mean, the challenge there is you wherever you're going, you're going somewhere that's really short staffed, so you could be going to a hospital, like my hospital is very, very well staffed. Compared to other hospitals. The nurse ratio nurse to patient ratio is like four to five patients, which is is excellent. Most other hospitals, on a floor like mine are probably anywhere from five to seven patients, which is I can't I can't even imagine seven patients that is just horrible. So your as a travel nurse, you're, you could potentially be walking into that. And if you're okay with that, then that's like some people. A girl I met recently, who's travel nursing, she said her very first nursing job, they had seven patients. So for her, it's like anywhere else she goes is similar or better. Whereas for me, if I was to travel nursing from having four to five patients to seven, I think I'd be having anxiety attacks,

Scott Benner 1:12:28
some of your lower Basal rate has to do with your job.

Lindsay 1:12:32
Yeah, I do. Okay, that was definitely a learning curve, too. Because it is. I mean, it's day by day. So some days are not too bad, and you're not really moving around as much. And then some days, I'm like, my, my floor is private rooms. So some days you're there, the hallway stretches very far. So some days, I'm jogging back and forth. I think I'm the only person that jogs around because it's just the for so long, and walking takes too long. Sometimes people will see me running by and I'm like, it's fine. There's no emergency.

Scott Benner 1:13:06
I just I just run forever for me to get there. You said you were an Apple Watch earlier? How far do you walk a day? Um, steps

Lindsay 1:13:14
I probably hit it really just depends on the day. I mean, I probably hit around, like the normal 10,000. On a busier day might be more, but Gotcha. Because you also spend a lot of time charting, too, so you're not on your feet, the entire 12 hours, you're sometimes sitting down charting. So or on the phone, whatever.

Scott Benner 1:13:36
That's really interesting. I appreciate you wanting to come on and do it. Why did you want to do this, by the way?

Lindsay 1:13:41
Um, I don't know, I just thought being diagnosed like right when COVID happened, and being a nurse. I mean, I'm extremely fortunate that I was diagnosed after becoming a nurse. I mean, I think about any other time in my life, it could have been diagnosed, that could have been diagnosed as a kid, but I have a brother with special needs. So for my mom to have to take him his needs on and now have to figure out diabetes. I just, I can't imagine that the management would have been stellar. I mean, she even says that she's like, Yeah, I that would have been really bad. So I think about that. And then if I was diagnosed in college, you know, that is just an awful time to be diagnosed, because you're in college and you want to just be normal and live your life. So the fact that I was diagnosed not only like after becoming a nurse, but I at that point, I was a nurse for three, four years. Yeah, a little over three years. Was was extremely helpful. Um,

Scott Benner 1:14:38
you're also pretty mature for your age. Do you? Do people say that to you? Yes, sometimes. Yeah. Thank you. No, I mean, it wasn't if you took it as a compliment, then you're welcome. But, but I when I knew I knew how old you are, and I didn't know what I was gonna get today like so for people who don't understand like, when he sent an email and said I'd like to be on Michelle and I went, Okay, and then I sent her a link. And then six months later, she's on the show. And all I know about her is nurse diagnosed around COVID. And I knew your age, right? Yeah. And I just interviewed somebody fairly recently, who's around your age, and there's nothing wrong with them. They were a great interview and everything, but you might be 40% more mature than they were. And and I don't mean mature, like, they weren't just like, Oh, my God, like, it wasn't like that. It's just life experience. And the way the experience impacts the things they say and how they say it, like, I hope everybody understands what I'm saying. Like, it's not like I'm not denigrating the other person. But you come off like you're 33 is what I'm saying.

Lindsay 1:15:44
Oh, well, that's, I take that as a compliment. Well,

Scott Benner 1:15:47
it is, yeah, unless you don't want it to be. And then in that case, I'm happy to lie about what I meant. If

Lindsay 1:15:52
well helps. I mean, it helps. It definitely helps with my job. Because before before masks, people used to always say it looked like I was 16. And I was too young to be a nurse. So now now that we wear masks less people kind of notice. You know how I guess how I look. But, um,

Scott Benner 1:16:09
well nursing is a young person's game, though, isn't it? Really,

Lindsay 1:16:13
typically? Well, hospital nursing, I mean, nursing as a whole, there's, there's so many other avenues you can go like you can be administration, you can do outpatient things, but in terms of working on a floor and a hospital, just because it's so high stress, high paced, like fast paced. It tends to be younger nurses.

Scott Benner 1:16:32
My mom just had a pretty serious surgery. And I went to see her like two days later when they let us in. And she'd been telling me on the phone the whole time, like my nurses, great. And you know, she's been here like, every day with me, and like, I guess the girls schedule is just like, lined up with when my mom happened to be there, you know? And yeah, I got there. And she walks in the room. My mom's like, Oh, this is her and I looked over. I'm like, That girl is 15 years old. She was just like, yeah, yeah, it was like what is right, and then I stood back and watch her. She was terrific, but she had the energy that I think the job needs. Yeah, you know? Yeah. So

Lindsay 1:17:09
it is hard to tell. It is hard to tell people's ages. Sometimes, though, because, like I started out as a nurse coming out of undergrad, I was 21. Like I was I was a baby. But some of the people that I work with nursing is their second career. So when they start, they're like, anywhere from like, 20, late 20s, early 30s. But in my head, because I started as a new grad. Every person that's a new nurse is like 21. So then as I get to know them, like at some point, they'll say how old they are. And I'm like, what? You're You're older than me this I don't understand. Well,

Scott Benner 1:17:45
I said right to the girl. I was like, What do you 12 And she told me how old she was. So I know how old she is. But because she just she was a baby. Oh my god, like there's nothing bad that even happened to her yet. You know what I mean? Life looked like it was just like, wrapped in a bow still, she had that fresh look on her face. You know, when you look a mother in the face, who's had his who's had a, you know, lived through, like bringing up an infant. And you can see there's like a tiny bit of like, desperation behind their eyes. And then once they have a couple of kids, you look and you realize they could kill somebody if they needed to. You only need like that whole Yeah, like, yeah, this girl didn't have any of that. She was just like, the world's wonderful and I'm taking good care of your mom. And I'm like, thank you.

Lindsay 1:18:27
Like, yeah, I mean, I guess it's it's new nurses are probably most in most cases are actually some of the better nurses to have because they're very, they're very attentive, they ask a lot of questions. Like they're not going to most of the time, you can never speak to everyone. But most of the time they if they don't know something, they will ask somebody. And they're very like, once nurses have been there for a couple years, like sometimes you get a little burnt out and you have the experience, definitely to carry you but I think newer nurses shouldn't be overlooked like they're very, they're very on top of stuff.

Scott Benner 1:19:06
What Lindsay? I gotta tell you I very much enjoyed you're a good blend for me. You have a lot of east coast in you, I would have hung up after I intimated did you have sex with masks on but just kept going? Like it was nothing. I'm twice your age, you didn't act like it was creepy. You really held up your end of the bargain on the conversation and information and I just really appreciate it. I had a really good time talking to you. I

Lindsay 1:19:28
hope Thank you for having me. This was very fun. I was looking forward to this so seriously. Thank you for all that you do. I think

Scott Benner 1:19:38
you say nice stuff about me. Let me be quiet. Yes, your

Lindsay 1:19:40
1000s of viewers would agree with me.

Scott Benner 1:19:44
assault me like there's so many more than 1000s

Lindsay 1:19:48
hundreds of 1000s Millions trillion by

Scott Benner 1:19:52
2020 one's gonna have over 2 million downloads.

Lindsay 1:19:55
That's awesome. I don't know. I mean, there's there's a reason for it. I mean, everybody enjoys reading caste and who am I? And I just, I just, I mean, well, now that I'm going to be on this podcast, I'll get some people to listen to it. And the couple of people that I know with diabetes, I have also referenced your podcast as well. So

Scott Benner 1:20:15
well, following it's a very interesting I find it to be like, this is weird, because now it's me talking about me, but I like the way I, I, I can't find a way to say this right on set like a douche bag. I think the podcast is set up really well. I think that there's management stuff that is also conversational, and the conversational stuff is entertaining, but still about diabetes. And yeah, so you can listen to the show as if it's a podcast, but benefit your health at the same time. Or you can you can cherry pick certain episodes and literally listen to the show like it's a how to write No, yeah, no,

Lindsay 1:21:01
I like the balance the balance of you know, Jenny content and informational content and then people's stories because I love to hear people's stories to me too.

Scott Benner 1:21:19
First, I'd like to thank Lindsey for coming on the show and sharing her story. And I'd also like to thank us Med and Omni pod today's sponsors of the Juicebox Podcast. Find out if you're eligible for a free 30 day trial of the Omni pod dash at Omni pod.com Ford slash juice box. You want to get your diabetes supplies without a hassle, contact us met at 888-721-1514 or by going to us med.com forward slash juicebox. Imagine if your stuff just showed up. And you didn't have to bang your head against your desk while you were talking to your diabetes supplier. Sorry, that was a flashback about an experience I had in the past. If you're enjoying the Juicebox Podcast, please tell a friend about the show. If you're listening to the Juicebox Podcast, please subscribe or follow in the audio app that you're listening in. If you'd like to learn more about the private Facebook group, it's called Juicebox Podcast type one diabetes, it just went over 26,000 members today, it's a great spot to listen and learn or get involved or share whatever you need. That space is going to help you Juicebox Podcast type one diabetes on Facebook, it's a private group. So you're gonna have to answer a couple of questions to get in. If you're enjoying the show, why not leave a five star review in the podcast app that you listen it just, you know they they offer you five stars, you just light them all up. If it's 10 stars, all 10 stars, all the stars. And then what really matters, a well thought out clear review that allows the next person to know what to expect from the show. That would be an amazing thing for me. And of course, T one D exchange.org forward slash juice box go complete the survey. It's so easy and so valuable. And it helps me so much. It helps people with type one. It's just a great thing to do T one D exchange.org. Forward slash juice box. Let me think if there's anything else here. I always want to tell you about the series of the podcasts. But you know, I feel like I'm reading to you. There's just so much good stuff in here. mental wellness, diabetes, pro tip, defining thyroid defining diabetes, bold beginnings, how we eat, I can't even think of the law. There's so much content. I'm also watching a baseball game while I'm recording this this new pitcher just came in and just the first pitch somebody just crushed it over the law. You have to wonder how that makes you feel like here I am. I'm gonna do it. People are Oh, that hurts. Anyway. Well, as I say. What the heck was I saying? You're probably like Scott watches a baseball game while I read the ads. Maybe a little. I mean, you wouldn't you don't have something on while you're working. Okay. I felt you getting kind of judgmental there. What else do I want to tell you about? A boom, boom, boom. I already said the stuff about the lists. About juicebox podcast.com. Have I mentioned that great website? Oh, you know what I never say at juicebox podcast.com. Each individual episode has its own web page. And on that page is the transcript of that episode. So if you want to read the transcript or go back to see something I know a lot of people love that feature. And that's available at juicebox podcast.com. I really should say that more frequently. I will I'm going to remind myself. I'll be back very soon with another episode of The Juicebox Podcast. Thank you so much for listening

#720 Magical Thinking

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#719 Bold Beginnings: 15/15 Rule

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Test your knowledge of episode 719

1. Why is it important to understand diabetes symptoms?

2. What role do lifestyle changes play in managing type 1 diabetes?

3. What are the different types of insulin used for?

4. How does diet and nutrition impact blood sugar levels?

5. How can stress and emotional health affect diabetes management?

6. What are the benefits of regular physical activity for people with type 1 diabetes?

7. Why is building a support system important?

8. How can staying updated on new diabetes treatments and technologies help?

#718 Pandemic Diagnosis

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