Scott Benner 12/7/23 Scott Benner 12/7/23

#1079 Parenting: Inconsistent Discipline and Over-Involved Parenting

Scott and Erika talk about avoiding unintended consequences of inconsistent discipline and over-involved parenting.

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Scott Benner 0:00
Hello friends and welcome to episode 1079 of the Juicebox Podcast.

Erica Forsythe is back today of course you can find Erica Erica forsythe.com. She's back today with another episode in our parenting series. Today's topic is avoiding unintended consequences of inconsistent discipline and over involved parenting. That's a really long title. I'll shorten that for the app. While you're listening. Please remember that nothing you hear in the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise, always consult a physician before making any changes to your health care plan. If you'd like to save 40% off of your comfortable clothing, towels and sheets, do that at cozy earth.com. With the offer code juice box at checkout, you can save 10% off your first month of therapy at betterhelp.com/juicebox. You can check out the private Facebook group Juicebox Podcast, type one diabetes, and of course, help us out. Apple podcast changed their app it's messing everything up. You may not be getting your downloads. If you're using the Apple podcast app and you have iOS 17. Please go to your settings to automatic downloads and make sure all new episodes is chosen

this episode of The Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by us med. US med is where Arden gets her diabetes supplies from you could as well us med.com/juice box or call 888-721-1514 They've got tandem, Omni pod Dexcom libre, and so much more. Hey, Erica, welcome back.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:54
Thank you. It's good to be here.

Scott Benner 1:55
We're going to look today at avoiding unintended consequences of inconsistent discipline. And over involved parenting. Yes, right.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 2:05
Yes, that's right.

Scott Benner 2:07
That's a t shirt.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 2:08
Yeah. It's a lot. It's a lot we're gonna try and cover today.

Scott Benner 2:13
Well, I appreciate it. I mean, this is Gosh, I don't think I've lost track of how far we are into the, to the episodes now. But it's starting to build into this really lovely companion piece for the podcast about parenting. And I think we're gonna mention here at the beginning. While it's our intention for this to help you with diabetes, not everything we always talk about is specific to diabetes. This is a kind of a more holistic view of parenting in general. Yes, yeah. Yes. So avoiding unintended consequences of inconsistent discipline. Well, I think we all must be guilty of inconsistent discipline, right.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 2:51
I guess I think we go out as parents hoping and striving to be consistent in our parenting styles in our in our discipline, but we can't always be perfect. We can't always be consistent. And I think it might be helpful to talk about how, how does this happen? How do we find ourselves disciplining our children with their rules or their behaviors inconsistently? And so we will just jump right in?

Scott Benner 3:19
Yeah. Is it because it's fun to listen to little kids curse? And how are you gonna yell at them? When they say something? When they're like, oh, Has it ever happened to you, as your little kid like, stubbed their toe? And then they've just said something like, completely out of pocket? Just crazy.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 3:38
I know, because I never curse and I'm perfect. Okay, yeah, no, no. Yes, that is that has happened in my household timer to yes,

Scott Benner 3:47
some of my favorite, like, tick tock videos, or have little kids just, you know, there's this one of this little boy, he's gotta be like, two or three years old in a diaper. And he's leaving the room and the moms like, where are you going? He goes, I have to take a shower. He just rolls out the door. And I think how you gonna yell at the kid for that? That's good. But you know, on a more serious note, that consistency, I'm imagining you're going to tell me is incredibly important. Because if it doesn't feel like the thing is really going to happen, then what's the reason to ever act like it's going to I guess it's probably how it looks from a kid's perspective. But tell me a little bit about how this happens.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 4:33
Yes, so I think the first thing for it from a child's perspective if they are confused what the rules are, right? So they might not know that you have certain expectations, or you might think you've told them once and they should know. So they they are not sure what the what the rules are. And then if they are sure what the rules are, then maybe they're reinforced in consistently at different times, I think for, for example, you have to finish your vegetables in order to get your dessert. If that's a family dinner, household rule, then they understand that that's a very clear rule. But if some days you're like, oh, you know, it's okay. Yeah, I'm feeling lenient. Today, I'm in a good mood, or you want to move on to the next thing. Okay, you ate three out of your five pieces of broccoli. Here's your here's your ice cream, which again, in the moment, we all have probably done this. It's okay, what we're talking about, like, Does this happen consistently? Are you inconsistently? Are you consistently inconsistent?

Scott Benner 5:40
Are you consistently inconsistent? Once it's not a big deal, but if the kid knows, three times a week, all they've got to do is mention the ice cream ahead of time and you buckle then suddenly, there's I guess, it's it's some sort of a power struggle. You just don't even realize it. And then they're winning. And all of a sudden,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 5:59
oh, yeah, yes. Yes. What? Yeah, we'll get into that that power struggle, for sure. Okay. Perhaps sorry. No,

Scott Benner 6:06
no, please.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 6:08
So also, maybe your rules might be different in different environments. For example, you're out at a restaurant versus home, or you're at a friend's house or a party. And I think, to a certain extent, we might have certain expectations or rules, publicly or privately. And that's totally fine and normal, but I think it's also helpful for to make sure our children know that too.

Scott Benner 6:30
Yeah. Okay. So, if I'm like, Alright, I don't care today, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go using the ice cream idea. Do I say that to them? Hey, look, usually, we need to eat all the broccoli to get the ice cream. Tonight's a special circumstance, does that actually help if you let them know that this is not me slipping up and misunderstanding the rules, but I am making an exception. And these exceptions aren't always going to happen. Is that actually beneficial?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 6:55
Absolutely. I think clearly communicating, you know what's happening. And you're gonna let them know, it's all about the expectation that then they can say, Okay, that one time, we got to do such and such, and the role was different today, because they explained why

Scott Benner 7:12
does this also, I'm imagining work backwards, where you can't promise something, and then it not happen. Because I'm just going to come out and say this, my wife talks about this a lot growing up, her parents will never listen to this, where they'd get told, behave today. And we'll go do this for dinner. And then when dinnertime rolled around, they didn't do it. My wife says that it taught her that her parents couldn't be trusted. Because I mean, and I'm assuming if you go back in time and find her parents, they would have said, we had four little kids. It was a summer day, they were out of their freakin mind. I promised to take them to McDonald's, and then it didn't work out. Like I just, you know, it didn't work out. And I couldn't take them. They would never, I would imagine if they heard this right now, they'd be like, that was not what we were doing. But it is what happened. And so so that is this just slightly, like thinking about it slightly differently. You can't promise something and take it away. You can't tell them something's gonna happen and then have it not happen. It's the same thing, right? Yes

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 8:19
or no? This this happens in my household. In fact, it just happened recently where we said okay, tonight's gonna be Movie Night. And then we we did not move or nor did my children move quickly enough through all the things I wanted them to do and needed them to do to get to Movie Night. So then we couldn't do it. It was too late. So they said we are you know, you're promised it was movie night by said okay, well, we didn't do all these things we needed to do in time. But I didn't. I didn't previously communicate that to them.

Scott Benner 8:48
That wasn't part of the rules. It wasn't the movie. If you little bastards don't take two hours pick.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 8:56
There's a lot of hoops to jump through to get to Movie Night. But I needed to communicate that to them because then they're disappointed. This

Scott Benner 9:03
is making me think of this very little. Like, I always think of this as a little thing, but maybe it won't end up being in the future. We have a lot of board games in our house, but we do not play board games. And I think it bothers Arden. Like, I think that when she was younger, she wanted to sit down and play more board games together and we didn't do it. And I think that even just having them in the house the promise of it being a thing we did, but it never became a thing we did. I actually think that bothers her. I mean, I don't think it bothers her to like Jack Ruby in a bell tower level. But like I think it I think it does bother her Do you think anybody knows Jack Ruby shut can now right? It doesn't matter. But But yeah, I don't think it's gonna make her like twist off but I do wonder how much of like, how much of a small adjustment to who she is is because of that like that small almost imperceivable let down. You know, so, okay, so Be consistent and be communicative enough so that they understand what are their goals like, what is it they're shooting for? So that they know if they didn't get to it? It's because we didn't do those things, then all of a sudden, that thing not happening is a teaching moment and not a letdown. Right? Because they Yes. Okay. All right. I see.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 10:20
And she might. So I was gonna say put the board game though, I think it's one thing as having those physical visual reminders of something, maybe she had this expectation that you did, could be painful. But also, did you say was that your rule? Was that your expectation? And did you guys talk about that, right? Today? No, we're going down a different path. But like, did you talk about, hey, we're a family who plays board games, and every Friday night, we're gonna play a board game, then you did it? Or was it just something that was kind of existing?

Scott Benner 10:50
was the intention, I think my wife wanted to be a family that played board games, but we were working in our nest diabetes, and a lot of kids played sports and time, you know what I mean? I'm bringing it up, because I think it illustrates how easily your intention can get discombobulated. And then how a child can see it in a way that you maybe would have never imagined. Because the first time she said that as an older kid, and she's like, Hey, we never played board games. And I wanted to and I was like, all like, it broke my heart. I was like, Oh, we screwed up. I knew we screwed them up. I just didn't know how, even as you and I are talking, I was like, Where the hell was Erica? 20 years ago, I should have had this conversation with her then. Because like, even just this part that we've just glossed over so far, is so obvious when you hear it out loud, and yet hard to make happen, but wouldn't have been difficult to stop it from being a problem. If I just would have used a couple more words. It's interesting. Yes, yes. Okay. All right. Well, keep going. I'm sorry. Okay, so

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 11:56
when are we so when a rules we've talked about if they're in inconsistent, different times different environments, or with different siblings, you know, if you have more than one child, they can pick up very easily if when a child gets a little bit more flexibility, because they're older or younger, and sibling order, or whatever, whatever the reason. So that is a that is a big deal. And they will use that, you know, and will reflect that back. They are very keen and are very aware of, you know, being treated equally as siblings. Yeah. Between parents. Sorry, go ahead. No,

Scott Benner 12:29
I actually was gonna say something that I don't know if I'm going to share now, like, as I as I heard, my brain said, I was like, that's probably too much. Now, I'm gonna say it anyway, my wife and her sisters refer to their older brother as Jesus Christ, because that's how they feel like he was treated when they were growing up. They joke about it, but they're not joking. Anyway, I think that's it. Right? That's what you're talking about with the Scible? Yes. Okay. Yeah.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 12:51
And I know that this is that's a particularly challenging one. Again, I know we already you already said at the beginning of episode, you know, where this is general parenting rules. But I know this, that's a really difficult one, when one child has type one, and the other one doesn't. So I just wanted to validate and pause there. I know, that's a really, really difficult thing to navigate that I sure

Scott Benner 13:13
because it's, it's a medical thing, and you need to do it. But other children could look at it as Oh, sure. When it's for them, we have time when it's for me, there's no time. And they're not going to do the reasonable thing, which is say, Well, yeah, we stopped and helped her because she was dying. And you wanted to play a board game and we couldn't get to it. Those are not the same things. But they feel like the same thing. If you're the out of the circle kid in that Yes. Okay. Yes.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 13:39
And those those all, you know, the awareness piece is the best thing to bring into those situations and having those dialogues you know, with your children, between parents, right, maybe one parent is feeling, as you said, kind of more lenient one day and will reinforce the rule, and the other parent won't. That happens, it's very common. And then maybe parents, you're in a different mood, like we've already said, you're in a urine exhausted, tired mood, and you're going to be you're going to consistently reinforce it or not because of that, or maybe you're in a really good mood, man, you're you're feeling maybe stronger, emotionally to reinforce or not. Can

Scott Benner 14:16
I ask a question? Do you think that this is most more specific to a certain age range? Like is there a moment when I get to the point where I can make the distinction and I don't hold it against somebody or something, or know everybody who has diabetes has diabetes supplies, but not everybody gets them from us med the way we do us med.com forward slash juicebox, or call 888721151 for us med is the number one distributor for FreeStyle Libre systems nationwide. They are the number one specialty distributor for Omni pod dash, the number one fastest growing tandem distributor nationwide, and they always provide 90 days worth of supplies and fast and free shipping. That's right us med carries everything from insulin pumps to diabetes testing supplies right up to your latest CGM, like the FreeStyle Libre two, n three, and the Dexcom, G six and seven. They even have Omni pod dash and Omni pod five, they have an A plus rating with the Better Business Bureau. And you can reach them at 888-721-1514. Or by going to my link us med.com forward slash juice box. When you contact them, you get your free benefits check. And then if they take your insurance, you're often going and US med takes over 800 private insurers and Medicare nationwide. better service and better care is what US med wants to provide for you. Us med.com forward slash juicebox get your diabetes supplies the same way Arden does from us med links in the show notes links at juicebox podcast.com. To us Med and all the sponsors, when you use my links, you're supporting the show,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 16:05
even as from the child's perspective, or

Scott Benner 16:07
if I'm 35. My mom's still treating my brother better Am I still like see, like you know the mean? Yes,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 16:13
I think as you mature, and you also understand the other one, there's their sibling order, there's different relationships between different parents. And maybe Maybe Dad gets along better with with son and mom gets better with daughter or vice versa or whoever whoever it is, I think there can be an understanding and maturity as you grow up. And then you can choose to work through it or not right, you can either understand those dynamics existed for a particular reason, and heal from those. So is there a point at which you understand it? Yes, hopefully. Yeah. If you're if you're healthy enough. And if you're if you're open to it, yeah. Oh, in

Scott Benner 16:53
West, maybe you just want to be mad about it. And it's an easy thing to go off on a good Thanksgiving. Yeah, I got that might be fun. Even if that happens. It's not so long. Why America, you gotta stay busy. Parents escalate when children don't follow rules? Yes. So we've kind of covered that you need to be consistent, that when the rules are flexible, what I guess let's go back to that first step, right? When the rules are flexible, what can happen, if we are

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 17:23
inconsistent in the discipline or inconsistent in reinforcing those rules, children's children will learn that, okay. There's flexibility here, which sometimes there's a benefit to having some flexibility in your household. But if they realize, okay, there's no consistency here, I can do one thing one day and get away with it. And the next day, it's fine, or it's not fine, then they're they're going to increase their behavior. And you might have some more challenges. And then they're going to test your boundaries, test the rules, test the boundaries.

Scott Benner 17:56
I'll roll the dice and see how this goes. And eventually, you'll weaken and it'll go my way more and more. Yeah, I have to ask you a question. Do you have any knowledge of how the prison systems work? Because I have a feeling like the same conversations happen within like the penal system, like be your enemy, like the testing of, of lines, what happens if you push the line, if you push the line, it never goes back again. Like, that's why you have to hold the line. If you hold the line too tightly, then there's a rebellion. This all seems very similar to me. Well,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 18:27
I don't know if I could speak to the prison environment, but I could speak to as a former teacher, that it's really important to have those really strict boundaries, particularly in the beginning, they used to joke and when I was training to become a teacher a long time ago that, you know, don't don't smile till Christmas, or don't smile, don't winter break, like just be really consistent with your classroom management roles. So they understand. So I mean, maybe that is also applied in the prison.

Scott Benner 18:55
In fairness to me, I just got done watching the first two seasons of Mayor of Kingstown. So it's all fresh in my head. If you haven't heard, it's on experimental philosophy, you should check it out. Also, the last week of my life has been my wife making fun of the way I'm saying mayor, she's like, you're saying ma R E? And I'm like, mare and she goes, No. And I'm like, may or and she goes, No. And I'm like, and then that's how our evenings go. Her just mocking me because I can't say ma y o or correctly, Mayor. Well, apparently, but I can't do it. Mayor, did I get it that time? That sounds good. Okay. Well, tell her cuz she's, I mean to my I've gotten some real like, looks that I imagined she got as a child when she let her parents down. She's like, you're so she said it was disgusting the way I said. No, we were having fun. Okay, okay. But it wasn't a mean thing. Although if it sounds mean to you, that was just I was being playful. Anyway. Okay,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 19:59
okay. So So okay, so now that children are there, they're testing the boundaries. And then consequently, then you as the parent, you know, we will escalate, right? So then as you were already predicting, we get into this power struggle, so we might be really strong in the punishment or discipline, or the kid wins. And so in those quick moments, we're gonna say, okay, you know, go to your room, you're grounded for the night, or however you whatever language you're using, or timeout. And while I'm not saying that timeouts are being grounded, those are bad. But in those moments where everything is escalated, and you're ratcheting up, and then you're throwing out maybe a discipline that isn't necessarily consistent with the rule, and then they they're escalating their behavior. So then you have these really quick, or you want to avoid it, you want to avoid the conflict. And so that then continues and perpetuates this maladaptive maladaptive behavior. So the child learns, I'm gonna push the boundary, and then I'm either gonna get punished for what, in a way that doesn't seem appropriate. Or the parent is so exhausted. And I know I've been there and you say, okay, just fine. Just yeah, just go do the thing. You know. So then you've created this cycle. And long term, what what we're what we've talked a lot about is that parent child relationship, and you're missing out on that those moments to teach, connect, communicate, validate the pain and that moment, because everyone's so exhausted. Yeah. Does that mean I hope I explained that it takes a cycle that we all can experience, it's hard to break it down step by step. But yeah, and

Scott Benner 21:47
the idea of like you ratcheting it up to a point, that's even unreasonable, like you say something, you say something that you couldn't even make happen if you wanted to, you know, like, You're not leaving your room for two months, like out why that's not gonna happen, that's obviously not going to happen. And then now you're, you have to give it back at some point. And then like it or not in a in a power dynamic, you've lost. And yes, and they've gained higher ground, and now you're working backwards, and you're not going to catch back up again. And then the person then their prisons being run by the inmates. Say, I told you, by the way, it's a terrific show. Really, I might not be able to say it, but I, I can't wait for season three.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 22:28
Okay, so Okay, as we've mentioned, yes, we are, we get we often we can find ourselves in this moment. But we're, we want to strive, we're all striving to be consistent. I know that as parents, but as we said, we're tired, we're exhausted, maybe we're distracted with what happened in our day at work, or with our partners. Or this can happen too, I'm definitely guilty of this of like, Oh, I'm gonna let them have the thing or do the thing. Because I'm feeling I'm going to be kind and be lenient here in this moment, thinking that, like, that's gonna help improve the relationship. But again, what we're going back to is, we're then being inconsistent with the rules, and we're starting that cycle all over again. Yeah,

Scott Benner 23:08
I think sometimes the problem can be when you're young, and you have kids, you make rules that are like, not necessary. You don't recognize it when you're laying them down. But but you know, you have this feeling of, like, I don't want things to go the way they went in my house when I was growing up. So I'm gonna make all these rules, then later, you look back, I didn't need half of these rules. Like, it's like, Baby baby stuff. Like when you get a baby, and you buy all this stuff. And then you don't realize for about a year later, like, I didn't need half of this, but I did not eat half of this, then the next kid comes. And it's like five onesies in a box of Pampers. And you're like, we're ready. You know, like, and you realize what's really important. But in this situation, it's too late. Because now you've laid out all these crazy rules. How do you do that? If you've if you've made a rule that you don't need? How do you get rid of it without giving up the power? And without putting the kid in a position of thinking, Oh, I got one over on the old lady. How do you do that?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 24:04
You can go back and this can happen. I think with any age, a two year old or a 16 year old to go back and have that conversation, not in the moment when everyone's heightened and upset. But the next day to say, You know what, I'm the parent, as the parent, I've made some rules that I think are really healthy and appropriate. I've also made some rules that I thought were important that maybe aren't important anymore. So here's what I'm thinking we're going to take away this role. And, you know, continuing for the reason why. And explaining I think that's why oftentimes we get pushed back is that our children need to understand why we have the rules, why we have the certain consequences to those roles, and then what to say and when we take them away, we can explain. Okay, I think it's totally fair strategy, and effective to because then they're they're there then you're telling the child Hey, I'm seeing you I'm understanding that this This thing isn't needed anymore. And you're really showing them that you're like in tune with their needs also building that trust. Okay?

Scott Benner 25:07
That makes sense to me. I was just because it's happened. I've said something where we've been doing something for a certain amount of time. I'm like, I don't think we need this anymore. So, you know, but I don't, I can't imagine just enforcing a thing. Because at this point, it's because I said, so. You know, and you don't even worry, we're worse. And to relate it back to diabetes, I think about this all the time when people are their doctors, and they're telling you to do something, and you ask them why? And they don't know the answer. I find that that's one of the most frustrating things about human communication to me that and I don't like the idea of wasted time. Wasted time really bothers me like at a core level. And if someone wastes my time, it's upsetting. Like, I'm, I'm upset by that, and this thing, where, because I think it's also a waste of time to especially when it comes to management. If you tell somebody somebody says you can't have a pump for six months, or you know, you can't do this, or we have to wait this long for that in your and you're over there struggling, and then use one day ask why and they don't have a reason. It's maddening. And it does make you feel like maybe that doctors just the parent who didn't know how to say, hey, we don't really need this role anymore. But and they just keep doing it because it's the thing they do. Or they

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 26:23
might feel like they didn't have the luxury of like time to even think about it, reflect it and have the conversation, you know that that's, it could be a possible option. And by

Scott Benner 26:33
the way, when you point it out to a doctor who realizes it, but won't back off it because they don't want to give up their power, this is an exact match to what could happen to you as a parent, like if if the if a kid comes to you and says, Hey, we're doing this thing, I don't see why we're doing it, do you. If you don't see, that's where you have to have that conversation and give it up. Because if not, now you're going to be defending, you know, an empty castle, and they're gonna know you're doing it, and it's, you're gonna look like a, you're gonna look like a hypocrite. And like you don't know what you're talking about. And trust me, your kids are going to figure out you don't know what you're talking about eventually. But you don't want to happen too fast, or, or becomes unruly. At this point. I'm 52. I know I'm a little young for how old my kids are. That maybe not a lot, but a little bit, I have a 23 year old and a 19 year old. And it's just true. They're smarter than I am. They're smarter than Kelly, they, they've already figured out who we are, I think they see when we're full of crap. They know when we don't know what we're talking about. They know when to listen to us. And they're right 80% of the time. But the problem becomes the other 20% of the time when they think they know what's best, but they still just haven't had the life experience to fill in the gaps. And then they're kind of half cocked going off and like I don't have to do that thing. He's wrong about that. I've gone through all the information in my head, and I can't find a reason why that's right. And when you try to tell them, Look, I just have more experienced than you trust me, this is where this is headed. It's it's a hard thing to sell as a parent to, you know, I don't know what my point was, but it felt important to share. So there we go. Go ahead. I'm sorry. Move on, please. Thank you.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 28:13
Okay, so talking about having inconsistent discipline can be you know, there are obviously consequences to that, that we just talked about. And we'll get into some more on on the the other side of that of having excessive praise, which isn't necessarily something I'm highly concerned about, I think in the greater scheme of things. I think when you talk and look up research, from psychologists, therapists, you don't have a lot of kids coming into their office saying, my mom and dad, or my parents just praise me too much. You know, it's usually, you know, either feeling the, over the criticism or the pressure, right. So I don't think we need to spend too much time on this. But I know this is something that has come up in previous discussions is what you know, to praise your child, obviously, is a really positive thing. And there's a whole, you know, positive parenting. And there's a whole kind of camp of just, you know, praise your child catch them being good. And that's how you kind of reinforced the behavior that you want to see more often, particularly you see it in a classroom, and at home, I think that's really a positive, no, sorry, no, pun intended way to parent. But I think we want to be really mindful, in that we're not offering empty praise. And we're not always just saying, you know, good job, good job, good job, or while you're really you're a really good dancer, or you're a really good artist, even though we do want to highlight our child's strengths. They're what I would just wanted to encourage and talk about briefly is to spend more time praising their efforts. And for those of you who have spent some time in This topic already, maybe you've already heard and read about the growth mindset versus fixed mindset. Have you heard that? Have you talked about that? Okay, so growth growth mindset versus fixed mindset was developed in the oh my goodness, placeless language, I think in the late 1990s. And there are schools who are teaching this type of mindset. And so basically, if you're, if your child is coming home saying, Gosh, I'm just, I'm so bad at math, I'm never going to be able to figure out how to do addition, or in the sporting, you know, realm, I'm, I'm a terrible baseball player to have when your child has a fixed mindset, they believe that they don't have any opportunity to learn and adapt. Whereas the growth mindset is okay, I don't know how to do that yet. One of the best things I like to teach my children and my and my clients as well as when I hear them say, I'm terrible at this, I'm bad at this, that all that negative self talk, to say, Well, I haven't learned how to do this yet, throw in the white et at the end. And that is reinforcing this growth mindset. And in that kind of in the larger umbrella of praise, when you're noticing your child working hard at something they have for I mean, the diabetes example, they haven't quite figured out how to how to Pre-Bolus at the right time to say, Gosh, I'm really noticing you're working hard. And you've tried here, and I noticed that your your effort is there, and you'll get it. And or I'll get it if you're still talking to talking to yourself, I just haven't figured it out quite yet. Because that's where we get stuck. And that negative self talk.

Scott Benner 31:40
Yeah, I think the thing you said earlier that really lit me up was saying like, it would be difficult to ruin a child by over praising them. But it's, I think, a thing people most concern themselves with, probably, somewhat unnecessarily and it leads to the under praising, and the under, like, sharing of love. I think that honestly, like I don't want them to just think being here is enough. Right? And so you hold that back. And then I mean, come on everybody you bump into a self esteem trouble. You can be nicer. It doesn't have to be it doesn't have to always be like the tough love angle. Like I'm gonna put them in the position where they'll end up right. You know, I don't know if that makes sense or not, but that it is the thing you hear people talk about all the time. Oh, it's gonna make them soft, right? It's gonna like, you know, Bob, like telling your kids you love them. It's not going to make them soft. Gonna make them feel loved?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 32:34
Yeah, I mean, I think it's, it's going back to the balance, right? Like, if we're praising our child for every single thing that they do, or they're like, they're just being kids. They're doing great. They're, you know, but they're not following your rules or expectations or showing responsibility or, you know, it's all about, yes, we want to praise our children and notice them when they excel when they are challenged, when they are sad when they are happy when they win when they losing all the things. But it's like you're trying to find that balance.

Scott Benner 33:02
So when Cole was very little, I remember being in a baseball practice once and it was a another boy in the outfield. They were teaching them how to catch like fly balls, which is not a thing you think about but when they first start playing, they can't really hit the ball, but they are by far so nobody knows how to catch a fly ball. The outfielders are just there from when the ball rolls through the infield. But once they get to about 989 years old, they start hitting them fly balls, like, you know, pretty high up in the air. So this kid settles under the ball, put his hand out, does not catch the ball goes straight through and whacks him like in the clavicle, like hits him pretty hard. And I and his mom yells in the stands. Good try. And I heard the coach go, well, not good try, but and he pulled the kid aside and said, I liked the way you stood there. You weren't afraid. He did what we told you to do. That was terrific. Now we're going to work on catching the ball. And it was such as like a fine line. Right? But I saw what he meant. Like he's like, he's like, trying, it's not enough. We're catching a projectile falling in your head. We need to be proficient at this or the next one's gonna catch you in the face, not in the clavicle, right. And so he just didn't want the kid to feel like it was done. But he also didn't let the kid feel like you're a disaster at this. It was really it was really well done by a guy who trust me if you knew him, you'd think Well, where did that come from? Probably because he was treated poorly playing baseball since childhood. You probably knew not to do that. It always struck me that he was not the kind of person I would have expected such a complete answer from but he had it and it was very cool. So and then you made me think great.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 34:36
That's a great example. Yeah. He's offering a specific praise for the things that he did all the things he did, right. Here's all of these things, some cracks here.

Scott Benner 34:46
But let's not let's not walk away from this moment feeling like you did it because I like your mom and all but you didn't do it. So you know, like it was that was kind of how we came off.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 34:56
But I love it and there's no shame in it right now. I don't like that with that. So that's

Scott Benner 35:04
what we're figuring it out. Don't worry about it. Like all that was there, you know? Where are we at on your list?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 35:10
Okay, we are moving on to the consequences of over involvement. Okay. And like being an over involved parent, which might be you might hear overpowering over protecting. There's also all the slang terms. You know, the helicoptering the lawn, mowing, vert, all different phrases of being an over uninvolved parent. And, again, I think it's really important to just to quickly note, too, that we're not just talking about being an over involved parent in terms of your management of your child's diabetes, but we're going to be talking about all the areas of life Sure, yeah, yeah. Okay. So some examples of this as a young child, if your child is young, maybe doing their homework may be constantly, you know, communicating with their teacher, when the child demonstrates frustration, or exhaustion, you might start doing that the task for the child, whether it's cleaning up the room, maybe when they're older, doing their their essays for them, maybe help if there's a involving yourself with their friendship, troubles, maybe too much. And then moving on even, you know, doing their college applications or essays, negotiating salaries, you know, that we can name probably a lot of different examples here. And I think, too, I want to also highlight that oftentimes, the motive is to protect your child, right, and to demonstrate that you love them, and you want to prevent them from having any pain in life. That's usually where the motive comes, right? We're not trying to cause any damage to our child by being overly involved. We're just trying to create a healthy, fun, successful life. Yeah,

Scott Benner 36:57
my wife tells a story of she was hiring somebody, once she was in a position to need to hire somebody for her group. And there was this young lady probably in her early 20s 2223, kind of fresh out of college seemed like a good candidate. But she was kind of stilted. Like, it was tough to talk to her and my wife, Sicard fine, she's young, she could be nervous or whatever. Anyway, this thing came up, but I don't remember the detail of it. And the girl says, Oh, I don't know. But my mom would know. And Kelly kind of laughed a little. And then she said, she's here. Do you want me to ask her? And Kelly's like, I wrote down the paper, no. And then just kept talking to her. To her mom came to the job interview with her. And I guarantee the mom thought she was doing like, well for the kid. But that kid was going to get that job, and then did not get it for that one specific reason. So she was fine. For the position, it would have been fine. It was an entry level thing. Honestly, if she didn't work out my wife and I or somebody else, it was not a big deal, right? Like, she was getting that job. And then she realized to the mother was sitting in the in the waiting room outside, she's like, I can, like, this is too much, you know, and moreover, the girl did not see why it was weird. Like she could tell us like the conversation went on there, she thought it was completely, just obvious that her mom would be with her job, and I feel excessive praise is not the same as reasonable good praise, lay, and you're probably not going to overpraise a child, as long as it's for a real thing. Not just like, hey, what way to get out of bed this morning. You know, and I guess unless that's the thing you're struggling with. But but you know, like, it's got to be a real successful thing that you want that you want to, I don't like to like, let out my Mac of alien side too much. But there are certain things that I do to motivate my kids to do other things. Like it's not that I don't mean it or it's not honest or true. But there's a moment when you say to yourself, you know, if I if I put a little effort into saying good job here on this, it might go a long way in the future, not just in this moment. And you know, I don't know, though. But Eric at how I make a podcast. I'm not tired at the end of the day, for the most part. Do you know what I mean? Like, I'm not, I'm not working in a steel mill. Like I'm not digging a hole like I'm, you know, I get up in the morning. Let me be honest with you, I get up when I want to get up. You know, I have breakfast, I take a shower, I make a podcast I work on for a lot of time and long hours, but I'm not exhausted while I'm doing it. And if at three o'clock in the afternoon, something comes up. I can normally pause, deal with it and go back to my life. That's just that's not everybody's situation, though. Like I guess that's why you really have to be aware of all this so that when that comes up, and you're tired or bleary eyed or whatever, you still do the right things more times than not. That is really the goal, right? Like

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 39:52
yes, yeah. And being Yeah, I mean, as you were describing the having the luxury of maybe a flexible schedule or a time I'm, you're also recognizing that not everyone might have that you might be exhausted, and just not wanting to implement all the perfect parenting strategies all the time. Yeah. But yeah, trying to do your best, as much as you can, in fairness,

Scott Benner 40:14
I'm gonna get my hair cut tomorrow with a bunch of 65 year old ladies, because, you know, they don't have a job either. It is true. It's, I mean, life's hard. And you know, your days can be long, you've said it before, like, you could be having a thing with a spouse or with another person in your life. And these things don't seem, it's difficult to see these things for what they are when they're happening. Yes, I think is really the biggest problem. And that's why you almost have to teach yourself these ideas so that they come up naturally. And not. You don't have to stop yourself and go, Oh, my God, I can't say that here. Because 16 years from now, like, you know, that's, that's tough sledding, if that's how you're thinking about it, it's hard. Yeah.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 40:56
And I think as you said, it's to keep it on the forefront. So maybe you you listen to this podcast, or you follow other people parenting, you know, lessons, instruction on on Instagram, I think it's helpful to refresh, remind yourself of some of these tactics and tools, because it's easy to forget, I you know, just even I'm reminded of things as I talk, prepare and talk with you about these these tools. I'm like, oh, yeah, that's a good one. I forgot about that.

Scott Benner 41:26
Well, I apologize. I took you backwards a little bit. We were talking about over involvement, it just I don't know, it seems important to me to say to people, like, I know, this isn't easy, and that you might not have the bandwidth for it. But here's why it's important. But anyway, I'm sorry, being over 100%. Yes. So being over involved in all the things you mentioned, it's dangerous. Why? What does it do?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 41:48
So again, validating are the motive of an over involved parent is because you are doing your best trying to protect and prevent your child from pain. That's usually what's what's happening. And so, unfortunately, though, some of the consequences of that is that you're teaching your child, that the world is a dangerous place, for example, you're going outside with your child, I'm going to be maybe extreme like, don't, don't go out. Don't go outside without shoes, and socks, don't forget to put on all of your sunblock and bug repellent Don't Don't cross the street with a holding my hand, these are all good things. But then you're like, wait, watch out, there's a step there. Don't forget, you're gonna follow that, you know, that's like this constant. If you're the constant narrative, again, I do all of those things for my children's certain points. But then if it's like this constant chatter to your child of watching out for the next thing, either physically or emotionally, they are then internalizing, oh my gosh, this is really, it's really scary out here. I don't know what to do without, without my parent telling me, You know what to look out for, or I don't know how to interact in this situation without my parent telling me how to say what to do, how to correct this conversation. And so then, that also can develop into, you know, different types of anxieties, separation, anxiety, social anxiety, and these are, it's, it's, it does happen, unfortunately. And then in terminally the child than teen then young adult, has this narrative of like, I don't feel like I can face the world. By myself, I don't feel like I'm good enough or strong enough, or have the ability to make these decisions by myself. So in general, there's a kind of a lower, lower self esteem and confidence in their ability to make decisions and solve problems.

Scott Benner 43:41
I want to parent how would a person know if they're just doing that by mistake, or if there's an underlying reason why they're doing it, like they're trying to keep the kid close by because it makes them feel more comfortable, like, like, what happens when it's, you know, again, not much housands but like that idea of, like, let me keep them reliant on me because it makes me feel needed or it makes me feel important because you could be having your own psychological struggles to like, right, as you see the kid like separating from you, it might cause like, real panic, and like, let me keep them infantilized a little bit and keep them with me. And then, you know, I won't have to worry about this separation ever happening. I mean, that's got to be pretty prevalent with people I would imagine.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 44:25
Either that mindset of like I want them to, I want to feel needed, or watching your child go out into the world triggers so much anxiety within yourself, that the only way to try and feel like you can control you can manage your anxiety is to control the behaviors, or feel like you're protecting your child. And that's what you're trying to you're trying to mitigate and manage your own anxiety by those behaviors. So I see those two types happening.

Scott Benner 44:54
I mean, I bring it up because for me, one of the difficult leaps of being a parent And this is gonna sound harsh, but like for a lot of things, you have to say to yourself at some point, if they die, they die. But living like this would be a different kind of death. So do you know what I mean? Like, you have to be able to go live your life. And it's the worst job in the world because you take this thing that you love, and all you want is to be with it. But everything you do is to give it the opportunity to get away from you. Which is just, it feels crazy while it's happening. I mean, listen, my kids are older, it still feels crazy. Like my wife will joke sometimes she's like, waiter, prepare them for the world. Now they don't need us. It's hard to remember that, yes, a certain amount of people are going to have like, like something terrible happen to them. And but that's not a thing, you can necessarily stop, you can reasonably protect against that don't go out at night, in a bad neighborhood by yourself, you know, that kind of thing. But if your kids like I want to move to the city, that would make me happy. You gotta let that happen. You know, like when they get their driver's license, yes, some kids wreck their cars and die, most of them don't. And how do you No, but if you keep locking them up and locking them up, they never get anywhere. And then they can't take care of themselves. Now they're still alive. And everything's a show. And because I mean, like you're talking about the anxiety, or I don't know if even got to like the lower self esteem and no confidence and all that that's going to come from that. And this is an absolute apples to apples comparison with diabetes, like 1,000,000%, you cannot, you have to take care of it for them. But you have to teach them how to take care of it for themselves. And then you have to let go of it. As it happens. I personally went with a slow release over a long amount of time. But that came from me listening to people talk who were just like thrown into it. And it never worked for them. No one comes on here and tells a story of like, you know, I was diagnosed when I was 12. My parents like you can handle it. And then everything was great. That does not usually happen like that, right. And so I just thought, the way I usually talked about on the podcast is like I see diabetes, the way I see everything else about parenting, it's a lot of repetition, not being frustrated about having to repeat yourself, knowing when it's time to stop repeating that thing and move on to the next thing. And when is it time to just let go? And then you got to know that the last piece of it's the hardest, because it's all on you. The letting go is like all on you as a parent, it's incredibly painful. So I've had a number of moments in the last four years that have been like, some of the worst moments in my life. Because I had to like, you know, I had to stand there with this person and go, Okay, well, you should just leave now. Like, that's okay. And then they're gone. And you're still here and alive. And you're like, oh my god, everything's so still. And you know, I don't have anything to do. And it's very, it's very hard to give it all away. And, you know, but if you don't, then you're screwing them over. It's just kind of the way I look at it, you know? So, anyway.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 48:07
Oh, so it's so so hard. I think

Scott Benner 48:11
it made me sad thinking about it. I know you're making me sad to your kids are little it's gonna make you cry. Just making me sad. It's the worst thing. I'm sorry, I cut you off. I apologize.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 48:23
I think the the over involvement piece, I think it's very, like it's a healthy involvement, right? Like finding that balance of, I think we've talked about this long time ago, like bubble wrapping your relationship with your child with the diabetes, and keeping that protected. And slowly unwrapping the bubble wrap as they get older. Right and that but they've learned how to had to manage themselves through your, and re like you've protected them. And then you're like taking these layers off of bubble wrap. So they kind of learned they're gonna make mistakes. It's okay. Yeah. And I know it's such a, it's such a painful. It can be such a painful and challenging process. But but then has to be done, as you said, eventually,

Scott Benner 49:12
oh, it's and it doesn't go in case you're wondering if it goes away as you get older, like my son's 23. In a couple of months, he's moving back home. And he's just got to drive across the country by himself. And there's, there's a little voice in your head that says, tell him to live there. Because you don't want him to have a car accident driving home, which is a ridiculous thought. But it does go through your head for half a second. Like, you know, you're like it's just you. It's just you repeatedly trying to protect a baby. Right? Like, you get the baby and everything's trying to kill it. You don't realize that you're holding it. You realize that like putting it down, twisting it the wrong way, like all of its bed food in a bathtub. You're all like, oh my god, it feels like that. And then that's your wiring, and then they get bigger and then fewer and fewer things can actually hurt them. But you still aren't In the part you started in, and you have a note here at how that could turn into entitlement for them. I was wondering about that. Okay,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 50:10
so this, let's say, over time, your young child, that is a teen is constantly learning that someone is going to do the thing for me or be there for me fix my problem. Then, as the child launches into the real world, they might enter into the world with a sense of entitlement and assumption that things are going to be done for you that all your needs are going to be met, that you don't have to once you feel kind of like, frustrated. So and so your colleague is going to do the thing for you. So that can be that, you know, we can see like the anxiety piece, definitely playing out and the challenge, like making independent decisions, but then we can also see this other element of, well, someone's going to do it for me. Yeah, I

Scott Benner 51:03
know, I've done and I know, I've mentioned this before, but I steadfastly when my kids were playing sports, if they looked hurt. Like, it's it. Listen, it sounds like a joke. But a kid gets hurt on a baseball field. Every mom stands right up. And dad, and every dad sits there. It's like, oh, they're probably alright. And like, and the one time it happened to my son, and eventually happened Arden to Kelly's like, go help him. And I was like, Kelly, if he's hurt, he'll still be hurt a minute from now. I was like, but if he's not hurt, what we're going to screw up by running out there is far worse than the pain he's gonna feel for the next minute before we can go home. Like we have to let this play out. You know, and don't get me wrong. It wasn't even look at you get shot in the head or something. But like it was it was bad. He went down, he was hurt. And he got up and he pulled himself together. And he kept going. Now, if he's laying on the ground, and before he even knows if he's hurt or not his mom's running towards him, then that's how he's wired from then on. And I also kind of steadfastly believe that when you're raising children, you don't lead them. When you're talking to them. You don't ask them leading questions. Are you hurt? You look hurt. Don't say that. Because then they're gonna go, Yes, I'm hurt. It's just how it goes, you know? Like, don't tell them they're not okay. I don't know. Does that make sense? Like, like, you know what, I mean, people follow your lead sometimes. And I'm not just saying Say you're okay, when you're, you know, you're famous second out is that you're fine. Like, you're not, you're not fine. Right, but like, but don't lead them to believing that they're weak. You know what I mean? And then once, and once there's an actual problem, it's not weakness, it's an accident. It's you don't I mean, like, there's no, there's just, there's certain words in there and phrasings and timing that are really important to avoid these things from happening, I think.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 52:55
Yes, I think it's, it's obviously, developmentally. But there's different different things you want to do, depending on where your child is in their development. I think as a young, newborn young child, you want them to know that they are going to be safe and cared for if a child falls and scrapes their knee. Some of these are maybe two different stereotypes. You have the parents say, Oh, you're fine, you're fine. You're fine. You're fine. You're fine. You're fine. You're fine, right? Come on, come on, come on, let's go. Or you have a child. Oh, my parent. Oh, my goodness. Let's go. Let's walk home. Let's stop the thing. Let's, we're gonna go, you know, you mustn't really hurt. Right? So there is that fine line of the validation piece? I hear, you know, you don't want to put words into their mouth. But sometimes the children would have the words but giving enough giving the validation without dismissing or exaggerating, yeah, incredibly

Scott Benner 53:52
fine line. Like, if you take a baby and pretend to be sad, you can make a baby cry. I got upset earlier, it made you upset. Like, like, so that happens, right? But so there's the line. Like, I don't want to like freak the kid out by telling them I think I'm I'm worried you should be worried too. And you also don't want them to think that it's a callous situation where they're hurt. And you're just like, whatever. It's okay. It's a it's a it's a case by case decision. You have to make that and you have to kind of make them snap, you know, snap judgment. I always my thought was just like, look 30 more seconds to make sure she's really hurt before we go out on that field is neither here nor there. But if you run out there, and she's okay, you're gonna I mean, I don't know what it is when you do it to a girl, but it's emasculating. Like, you know, like, what is that word? What does an escalation mean? Can you emasculate a woman? Ah, oh, I found a word. I don't know. Let's look it up.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 54:47
Sorry. I think that's it. Yeah.

Scott Benner 54:53
Is emasculation something that you can only do to uh,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 54:58
yeah, we're getting we're getting into you know, Different, what is your gender identity? And how do you present? And then? I'm not sure.

Scott Benner 55:06
Is there a more generalized word, I guess is what I was wondering. I'll figure it out. That's what I was wondering like, is there a more generalized word for that?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 55:16
While you're looking, shall we move for the sake of time into our strategies? Okay. So talking about, you know, we now understand what are some of the what does it look like to have be inconsistent in our discipline and following rules, being an over involved parent? And so what are some strategies that we can implement, to maybe hopefully avoid some of these negative outcomes, and we already you already kind of alluded to the set reinforced double rules, right? So we, we want to, and we and again, we might not know what the rules will be like we can enforce on a consistent basis. So it's okay to redact and correct and edit and adjust. Use reasoning, instead of empty threats. So if a child or a teen is not following the rule, to again, I know this is hard to do. Because we have to be in our own, you know, grounded place ourselves as a parent to enter into a conversation and of explaining why is this not working for you? This is the rule. This is how we have to make it work. Instead of empty threats. I was taught this in a parenting class, when I first became a parent, where you're at, you're at the playground, and the child's not listening, you're saying, Come on, you need to go do this, or do that or don't do this. And then you say, Well, if you don't stop doing that, we're gonna leave the park. And this parenting educator said, No, do you? Do you really want to leave the park? Like, are you are you really gonna leave the park? And oftentimes, like, No, we don't want to leave the park. Like we're there. We have all the things are with our friends. And even in those younger years, the child will learn Oh, you know what? I did it that one more time. And we didn't leave the park. Yeah. And so that, that has sat with me now. They they will learn and I think the hardest part is when you make that really extreme that it's because you've you've done all the things we talked about originally is like you've it's everything, you've escalated, the child's behavior is becoming really aggressive. you're responding in a really aggressive way, everything, the whole situation is escalated. So you're like, if you don't do this thing, rather, we're not going to the party, or we're leaving the party or whatever.

Scott Benner 57:27
I think everybody comes to the moment where they make that read that resolution there. And then they're like, oh, I have to follow through now. Yeah. And you're like, Oh, I screwed myself. We're actually leaving. I said this thing I have to follow through if I don't, then you're gonna get all that I've had that happen to me. I was like I overreached. And now I'm end up doing a thing I don't want to do because I have to, because I said I was going to, and yeah, that's unpleasant at all. What about no favoritism between children? This

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 57:58
goes back to kind of you know, this the sibling, if rules are different or applied differently. So let's say you have no there's no playdates for children after school. And then you're feeling lenient, or you actually really need a, you know, for whatever reason, you're like, okay, just this one time, but it's for Johnny and not Susie, that doesn't work. That doesn't work. So just trying to be really consistent and the, how you apply the rules for both children? I know we've talked about that a little bit already. And

Scott Benner 58:33
yes, you have links here you want to share with people you want to tell them? Yeah,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 58:36
so I think a lot of this information came from parenting for brain.com. Also, in previous episodes, I love the child MIND Institute, child mind.org. There are some great links and articles on a lot of this information that we're talking about. And I think one of the last tips that I think we'll get into in the next episode is to try your best to not contradict the other parent. And to as much as you can connect, communicate with the other parent, if there is one in the household. And that will communicate to your children that the rules are clear. And they are you are being consistent in how you follow through with those rules when they're when they're broken.

Scott Benner 59:20
What about when they're wrong. We'll talk about the next one. The next episodes about co parenting and unified fronts. I cannot wait to tell you all the stories I have of my wife and I disagree. So and agreeing and how I've learned to say things like your mom's right. And here's why. Or I think this is why mom feels this way. I get what your concern is here. I gotta be honest with you. I might be on your side of this. But here's what she's saying. If you try to see it from her perspective, I think you'll see what she's saying is reasonable like that stuff took time to learn. So, but anyway, I appreciate you doing that and I will let you go with this idea it looks like that imagine you learn a masculine it just seems like it might be an old word. So then when they first made it, the first word was first used, it was like, you know, to, to deprive of strength, vigor or spirit or to weaken. That's what it means. But it was. Also it also meant castrate. So I think it became a word that was, I wonder if you look back, if no one ever thought you that women had strength, vigor, spirit or strength to begin with, and so you couldn't take I wonder how like old fashioned the word is, like the I don't know what the Entomology of it is. All I know is I wanted to talk about Arden and say that you didn't want to take away, you didn't want to weaken her. Like you didn't want to deprive her of spirit, like these are all things I would have said but a mask that popped into my head and then I was like, Is that appropriate? Like for that gender? And I was like, I don't know. And anyway, that's where that led us to. So I'm gonna have to figure out if there's a word, if there's a word for genders, or if it's just a, like a unisex word, or, or if there's a different or better one. Anyway, I'm gonna find out. Yeah,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:01:05
sure, sure. Next Oh,

Scott Benner 1:01:09
all right. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. You're

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:01:11
welcome. Thanks. Bye

Scott Benner 1:01:21
as always, Erica is terrific. Find her at Erica forsythe.com. She can help you in I think five different states and she sees people in person in California. You can find out everything at Erica forsyth.com. I want to thank us med. Sincerely. I want to thank us med sincerely for being a steadfast and longtime sponsor the Juicebox Podcast we in fact do get Arden's supplies from us, man, and I believe you would have a good time. If you did as well. It's very easy. I love how easy the reordering is. I sincerely think you should give them a try us med.com/juice box or call 888-721-1514 If you enjoyed this episode, it's part of a series go back in your player and find the rest of them they're called parenting and then you know the rest of the scription you should be able to find them no trouble. I also believe there's a list of these episodes in the feature tab at the Juicebox Podcast, Facebook group, the private group Juicebox Podcast type one diabetes up in the feature tab you should find lists of this series and actually all the series that are involved in the podcast. Thank you so much for listening. I'll be back very soon with another episode of The Juicebox Podcast.

#1078 Mountain House

Kim has type 1 diabetes, a brain tumor and a story about her dad.

+ Click for EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Scott Benner 0:00
Hello friends, and welcome to episode 1078 of the Juicebox Podcast

Okay, guys, I've got a great episode here for you. It's it's two episodes and one honestly, today's guest is Kim. She's had type one diabetes for 32 years, we're gonna talk about her type one where she lives, a benign tumor that was found in her brain. It's a fantastic episode. But then about an hour into it. Kim tells me something that is just oh my gosh, what do you hear? While you're listening? Please remember that nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise, always consult a physician before making any changes to your health care plan are becoming bold with insulin. I'm going to be saying this for a little bit because Apple really kind of screwed bus with this new podcast app. So if you've upgraded to iOS 17, you want to go into the podcast app, go to your library, touch Juicebox Podcast top right corner, three dots, then Settings, then scroll to automatically download and then go to the bottom all new episodes. Apple podcast changed their app and you may not be getting the podcast because of it. Hopefully you've heard this and you've made an adjustment. This episode of The Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by us med. Now us med is where we get our diabetes supplies from and you can too as a matter of fact, later in the ad, I'm going to tell you about an email we just received from us med for now. Go to us med.com/juice box or call this special number just for Juicebox Podcast listeners 888-721-1514 When you go to the link, or call the number, you get yourself a free benefits check so that you can get started getting your diabetes supplies the way we do from us med. The podcast is also sponsored today by the contour next gen blood glucose meter. You want accuracy. Well, then you want the contour next gen contour next.com/juicebox Hey, Kim. Hi. How are you?

Kim 2:22
Good. How are you doing?

Scott Benner 2:24
My wife yelled at me a little bit this morning because I didn't come downstairs let the dogs out fast enough. But other than that I'm doing great. Excellent. Yes. Good. I told her what I said 16 years ago when you said I think the kids need a dog. I said no. Don't do that. I'm now today 16 years later, you're yelling at me because of the bad decision you made 16 years ago. But okay. I said that Ken dog is never gonna die. He understands. He's been alive for 16 years. That's That's an old dog. That's definitely it doesn't seem that old some days. So, anyway, yeah, she did not care for that answer. But I'm right. And I'm leaving that in our episode for posterity sake. Not to buy a dog. Literally and figuratively. He's never really bitten us. But it's been it's been descending. Yes, a number of times along the way. I love I want to be clear Kim. Love the dog. absolutely terrific. And if in the evenings when I went to sleep, or if I had to go away this weekend for work, which I have to do, or you know, at 630 in the morning, when he doesn't feel well, if somebody else was taking care of them at this point. Like if I was a Kardashian or something, for instance. Then this would be terrific. But this is an Instagram. And no, it is life. Yeah, exactly. Right. So Anywho. Kim, do you have a pair of headphones?

Kim 3:57
I am wearing headphones. Excellent.

Scott Benner 3:59
Is there like a little arm thing on them for the microphone? Or is it hanging on

Kim 4:03
your wire? It hangs on the wire.

Scott Benner 4:05
No problem. Are you in a room without carpeting?

Kim 4:11
Well, I'm laughing because I was just going to do this at my regular desk, but it's very windy here today and we live at 9700 feet. And so the house shakes and especially that garage room that I would have been in Savannah and a tiny closet and I brought in a bunch of pillows.

Scott Benner 4:30
Sounds a tiny bit hollow and I'm trying to figure out but I want to get back to the house shaking part but I'm trying to figure out if maybe that wire just needs to be a little closer to your mouth or moved it closer to Iraq. Or if it's just the spacer and I this is gonna sound crazy. Crack the door to the closet.

Kim 4:46
Okay

Scott Benner 4:50
give me some more words.

Kim 4:52
Okay, I opened the door.

Scott Benner 4:54
I like that better. Okay, all right. You're really in a closet. KIM Yeah, So like, I

Kim 5:00
knew that you are very, like, specific about how things sound. So I was like, He's not gonna like all the wind in the background and garage door shaking. So I need to find a different place to be. I

Scott Benner 5:11
see people put this on, by the way we've begun, people put this on me. But if you were listening to the podcast, no, I know. I

Kim 5:19
appreciate that about you and your podcasts. Because if the sound is like, grading, I will just start Listen,

Scott Benner 5:26
of course, well, no, I swear to you. I used to say it all the time. Somebody could say, hey, on this episode of The Juicebox Podcast, we have the secret to life at 36 minutes in but you can't skip forward. And you have to listen to the rest of it. If a garage door sort of banging around, I'd be like I'm doing okay. I don't need the secret to life. Nevermind. Yeah. So yes, yesterday, I interviewed a person. So interesting. I interviewed a person whose father is really famous. But she didn't want anyone to know that. And so the whole time, I was like, Come on, let's talk about it for five seconds. But we never did it. It was fine. But not the point. The point is, they had a really great microphone setup. And as soon as she came on, I could feel my whole body relax. I was like, Oh, she's got a great mic. It's quiet in there. It's great. I said one thing I don't have to worry about while I'm talking to her. So anyway. Okay. Again, usually, I would have told you before this started, like, you know, is there anything you're concerned about? Do you have any questions or anything you want to say? So I'm just going to ask you that while we're recording. Anything you need to know worried about? No, I'm good. Okay. Are you nervous? Not really. Excellent. Usually, I would tell you to introduce yourself. But your Kim, I think we've gone over that a couple of times. Yes, type one. I did. And I know you've had it since 1991. So I'm just gonna throw that in there. And we'll do the math together. 2000 I

Kim 6:49
did it last night to practice 32 years.

Scott Benner 6:51
Kim. I was gonna I was gonna teach people how to count as in 2001 and 2011 than 2021. Now it's 2023. So 2122 23, it's 32 years.

Kim 7:06
And it was the APR 1991. So we are actually only completed that year.

Scott Benner 7:12
32 years. On the button. Yeah. All right. All right. That's fine. Sounds good. Been a lot of fun. Has it? Sorry.

Kim 7:21
Oh, you know, I don't know. I mean, there's that whole thing where it's like, I don't know what my life would have been like without it. And but I do kind of think in ways it has been better for it. I mean, I don't want it but I know. Like, it's basically made me who I am. So it's hard to say.

Scott Benner 7:38
Are you saying it's like exercise?

Kim 7:41
I don't know what that analogy would be. You

Scott Benner 7:43
don't want to do it. But when you do exercise? What is wrong with you? You know, it's funny, I was gonna say something that would have been inappropriate based on something you're gonna say in the future, but I'm gonna jot it down. So I can remind people after it comes out how I almost said something very, I think would have been hilarious, but then would have been appropriate. Anyway. Okay. Okay, so Kip, so you're diagnosed and how old because how old are you now?

Kim 8:11
My birthday is next month, so I was eight, almost nine years old. Oh,

Scott Benner 8:15
wow. So you're, you're gonna be 4041 41. Wow, that exciting. Sad. How do you feel about

Kim 8:22
that? Um, it's fine. I don't really feel any different. So I don't worry about it too much.

Scott Benner 8:28
I think that too. Even when I hear people are like, Oh, I'm so upset. This is happening or that's happening. I always think well, you're alive. That's how you got to be 41. Alternative. You died before you were 41. I don't want that right now. I know. Everybody wants to live forever. But that's not happening. So not yet. No, no. Give me a lot of Musk's more time. Kim. Why do you live at the top of a mountain in a rickety house?

Kim 8:58
It's actually a brand new house. Okay. We are living in Denver for a while now. And then we decided to move up into the mountains. So now we live about an hour west of Denver on the top of the mountain.

Scott Benner 9:11
We are afraid that the government was gonna find your weed grows so you had to go higher. No, no. Okay. So are you skiers?

Kim 9:19
No, we're not. We're hiking and snowshoeing and biking. That kind of stuff.

Scott Benner 9:26
Are there wild animals where you are? Yes, I

Kim 9:29
haven't seen any yet but there's potential for bears, mountain lions, coyotes, deer, all that stuff. Better house

Scott Benner 9:38
just too easy cam and you were like let's level up.

Kim 9:42
Yes, also the house is completely off the grid. We have a well we have a septic system and solar panels and a propane backup generator. Or, you know, I feel like it but no, this is just how this house was Still, okay,

Scott Benner 10:00
so you, somebody come into some money and you're like, let's upgrade now been working hard your whole life. How did this

Kim 10:09
happen? Well, we were thinking of building a house in the mountains. And then we found this house on Zillow and then came up here to talk to the guy. And we're and so it has an amazing view that that's the thing being on top of the mountain, we can see like the entire, like, the Continental Divide and the Rocky Mountains. And so we're not like, so we're still not quite far enough West that we're like, in the Rocky Mountains, right like range legitimately. So like, we can see them from our house versus if because like, if you're living in them, you can't see them because you're in them. So we're still out far enough like in the foothills, to to see all the mountains so the view was a million dollar view. So we went for it.

Scott Benner 10:55
This man you breezed over? Did you feed into a bear and just take his house? How did that go? No, he

Kim 11:01
was the builder and the listing agent.

Scott Benner 11:05
You're like there was a man, then there was no more talking to him. I was like, they killed him. today's podcast is also sponsored by the contour next gen blood glucose meter. This is an incredibly accurate meter. And you want accuracy. Contour next one.com/juice box, find out all about the Second Chance test strips, the fantastic meter, the easy to read screen, the beautiful form factor that fits right into your hand. This meter is the bee's knees, it is incredibly accurate. And not every meter is. So don't just run around with whatever busted up meter somebody handed to you out of a drawer or a closet or because that's the sales guy they like the most. Look into meters get good meters. As a matter of fact, when you go to contour, next one.com/juicebox You may find that the contour meter and its test strips are less expensive for you out of pocket and cash than you're paying now for what could be a lesser meter through your insurance. Check it out. Links in the show notes links at juicebox podcast.com To contour us Med and all of the sponsors. No. So, okay, well, that sounds lovely. Can I ask you a question? How long have you been there?

Kim 12:24
Two months.

Scott Benner 12:25
All right. So I'm gonna ask a difficult question. Okay. You've been there long enough now to have buyer's remorse. What about it? Are you like, uh, I overlooked that.

Kim 12:35
I'm actually I'm surprised because I thought there'd be more of an issue with being like 45 to an hour minutes from Denver now because I still need to go back there to get like my allergy shots and stuff. But overall, that hasn't been as bad as I thought it would be. So and we also have to drive up this like dirt road with that's really rutted and muddy sometimes. And that was kind of stressful, but we got a new car. So that's better now and so honestly, I don't have buyer's remorse at I am a little bit stressed about

Scott Benner 13:11
that. Nice Kim new house, new car, there's like 18 cents left in your bank account. And you're like, we don't have to eat this week. And I hear you're in the woods, but you need allergy shots would it have not been a good idea to move away from the woods?

Kim 13:27
I don't think I'm allergic to the woods as much as I am the animals in my own house.

Scott Benner 13:33
I don't want to make like a simple suggestion. But have you considered opening the door and letting them out?

Kim 13:39
No, that's not what you're supposed to do when you have dogs and cats. All right,

Scott Benner 13:42
Kim, you and I talked at the beginning. I am at the point now where I'm willing to let my dog walk away. I like just like put a little stick on it was in dog food and a bandana and like stick it his collar and be like guy, man, good luck. Like we've been together long enough. Now I want to divorce my dog is what I'm saying. Oh, really? I just didn't want him to live 16 years. It's funny. I didn't want him to live 16 years 16 years ago and now I don't I don't I don't know what a fake anymore.

Kim 14:12
Is he a smaller dog? I assume that's why he sold No,

Scott Benner 14:16
he weighs like, I mean at his at his best when he was in full vigor. You don't I mean, but he could have made a lady pregnant back then. He was like 55 pounds. Oh, I'm surprised. Okay. Yeah, now he's just old. He's thinner now. And gray. That's the weirdest thing. Your dogs get gray hair. No one tells you that.

Kim 14:35
Oh, I didn't know that before we got our visualise and they get like people call it sugar face and then their face turns white and we're a little freaked out about

Scott Benner 14:45
that. Do people call it coke face but your nice thing enough for me. They call it shook. Okay, I don't know like it's just it's weird seeing them get older in their face that Keith the key got thinner. You get that like the little hard nose thing happened to him. like you take him to the vet and the vet sec, how in DISA live and you're like, Yeah, what's up? And? Yeah, I mean, it's all like, even our kennel, which I don't think we use maybe twice a year, but we've been using them forever. They're wonderful people. Absolutely great. Last time I was there, they were like, You got to stop you can't bring into here anymore. And I was like, why? And she goes, he's just so old. And I'm like, All right. So you know what I had to do? Kim, I had to find a kennel with less morals. And they take him no problem, but because I because I still had to move my daughter into college like I wasn't going to do like, just leave them at home. Tell them good luck. Yeah. I mean, so anyway, how many dogs do you have? How many cats how many parents what's in that house making this nice? Well,

Kim 15:44
we have two dogs now and one cat. But this all started a long time ago. We had three cats. And no dogs.

Scott Benner 15:52
Kim Kim, three cats. We had three cats at one time. Yes. What are you doing? You're starting an army a cat. So you got bored of it? Or why three? Well, how does that happen?

Kim 16:02
Okay, so we had one cat that we got when we were in college. And then we got a second cat like a year later. And then they got older together. And then we got the third cat when they were about 10 or 11. Because we needed to be able to cycle through animals, like so that we weren't left with no animals. And that was that was the plan as laid out by my husband. And so then the middle cat died. And then we had the two cats. And then when the oldest cat died, then he got a dog in 2020 People

Scott Benner 16:38
hippies or something? What's going on? Like, just don't? Oh, no, not a hippie? I don't think so. Alright, you don't think so? I my son this years ago, my son's a freshman in college. He calls up and he goes, kid down the hall got a chinchilla in his room. Okay, when are you allowed to do that? And he goes, No, we are not allowed to do that. And so they hid that that animal for like he the kid hid that animal for like a year and a half. I don't know. Alright, so diabetes. Hmm, I guess the obvious question here around type one is, did you have any concerns moving such to such a rural place?

Kim 17:15
I didn't. Because I haven't had to call the emergency people in a long time like it not since I was a kid. Like, I haven't had to use a glucagon since I was a kid. My parents, on the other hand, were like, how are you going to live up there? They're going to an hour to hospital. And I was like, well, actually, the neighbors the lowest, what is an emergency room doctor and the other is a rheumatologist. So there is medical professionals nearby. It's just it would be a while to get to the hospital. But no, generally, I wasn't worried because like with decks calm and everything now like, I just don't worry about that being an issue. And otherwise I don't I can't think of any other emergencies that could happen.

Scott Benner 17:59
Do you work? I do out of the house where?

Kim 18:02
Yeah, we both work from home. I'm a CPA. Oh, oh, I

Scott Benner 18:06
have so many questions about that. But don't worry. I'll ask I'll ask them later. People are like do not ask her accounting questions before you talk to her about her diabetes. So I guess I kind of want to like, there's an elephant in the room, as far as I'm concerned, because I can see your little intake questionnaire. I'm almost embarrassed to say that last night, my wife's like, do you record tomorrow? I said, Yeah, tomorrow at 10 o'clock, with a lady who has type one. And she had a benign brain tumor. And my wife goes, Why do you sound excited by that? I'm like, doesn't that's like, doesn't that sound interesting? And she's probably not to hurt. I was like, No, I know. But to me, I think it's gonna be very interesting. So how old were you when that happened? How did that present?

Kim 18:44
So it was I was 26. And I had a ringing in my ear just that one year. And I didn't really have any other explanations for why that would happen. Because I don't listen to loud music or go to concerts or anything. We had moved to Washington, DC, pretty near about that time, and I got a new endocrinologist. And then it was like my first appointment with him. And he was like, Do you have any other concerns? And I was like, well, this isn't like for you, but like, I have this ringing in my ear. And so then he gave me the name of en t doctor in the building and said to go see him.

Scott Benner 19:28
And he's talks to you, and then decides to image your brain.

Kim 19:34
Yeah, so I got lucky because that doesn't always happen. So I did go to the end. And then first he did a hearing test. And I had some hearing loss in that year that I hadn't noticed. And so then he knew that something was going on. And luckily he then ordered an MRI and then we saw the tumor. Wow.

Scott Benner 19:59
and tell the people it's catnip, right? It got in your ears and in your head. How does that have any any of that in your family line? Anything like that? Oh, no. So

Kim 20:13
it is there is a way that it could be more of a hereditary thing when it's called neurofibromatosis. neurofibroma, I don't know ptosis to, that's when it is more of a hereditary thing. And it's like, it happens more in younger people. And you have like tumors all along the nerves in your body. And so they were a little concerns that that could be what I had because I was on the younger side. Usually, you don't get diagnosed with this until you're like in your 50s or 60s. And so that I did have some additional imaging done of my spine and to look for tumors there, but I didn't have any so it was just the regular one. So there's a couple of names for it. It's colloquially called the acoustic neuroma. But it's also like more medically accurate to call it a vestibular schwannoma Hmm,

Scott Benner 21:09
it also sounds more fun that way.

Kim 21:12
Yes, okay. Um, so then, yeah, so there Yeah, I had no reason to think I would ever end up with one of these. Right.

Scott Benner 21:19
Wow. And how, like, what did it measure? How big was it? For over two years we've been getting our diabetes supplies from us med. Us med.com/juice box are called 888-721-1514. Arden gets her on the pod and Dexcom supplies from us med but they have so much more. They accept Medicare nationwide and over 800 private insurers with an A plus rating from the Better Business Bureau. You're gonna love us med. They always provide 90 days worth of supplies, and they have fast and free shipping. They're gonna carry everything for you from your insulin pumps to diabetes testing supplies, the latest CGM, they have it if you need it. Us med.com/juice box you want to FreeStyle Libre two or three? They got it? Dexcom six or seven? They have it you want on the pod five? Check. They got that to Omri pod dash. T slim. They have what you want us med.com/juice box get your free benefits check right now prefer the phone 887211514 We received an email two days ago from us med that it was time to re plan. What we're going to refresh. Oh Dexcom supplies. I didn't respond to the email. So a couple days later, we got a phone call. I picked up the phone. Hey, this is us, man. It's like a recording. Do you want your supplies to come press one. I press one that was it done. The time before we use them. I use the email. I click Yeah, come on, send some more supplies. And they were on their way. It couldn't be easier. Us med.com/juice box links in the show notes links at juicebox podcast.com.

Kim 22:57
One and a half by centimeters by one and a half centimeters by like a little bit more than one and a half centimeters I think at that point. And so where it is is so the reason it gets a stain as acoustic neuroma is because a lot of the time it does present with hearing issues. And that's where the acoustic part of it comes from. But the Y the actual name of it being vestibular schwannoma is what that means is there's a schwannoma, which is a benign tumor on your vestibular nerve, which is your balance nerve. And so in your brain there, the hearing nerve, the balance nerve, and your facial nerve are all bundled together and they go into your brain, like through your ear canal, not your canal. But like in your brain. There's a passageway that these three nerves go through to get to the where they're coming from, and then to your brain. And so, so that a lot of the time because the tumor is growing on the balance nerve, it will affect the hearing nerve and the facial nerve. And so that's that's the lay of the land there. Wow.

Scott Benner 24:04
And for you, it was just it was ringing at first. Yes, yes. Then

Kim 24:11
well, then no, nothing else really. which was surprising, because I later found out what other things can feel like when you have your other nerves having issues. But at that time, no, no, I did not.

Scott Benner 24:24
So I want to move on to find out more. But first, I want to say that I thought you were trying to screw with me earlier when you said colloquial and I was like Is she gonna say curricula and colloquial in the same couple of minutes? Because that's gonna throw me off if that happens. And then he confused you did not say that, but I couldn't stop thinking about it. Anyway, here come the emails and say I have ADHD. Wow, that's crazy. Was it in any? I guess my question is it doesn't sound like it was life threatening, right?

Kim 24:55
No, no, no, it was not. So that's the thing they say So there's an acoustic neuroma Association and you can go, so I went to like a support group in DC that had people going to it and a lot of it. So the first question they asked you is like, are you watching weight? Or are you like decided on a treatment plan, which would either be surgery or radiation. And a lot of the time, they recommend that you watch and wait, just to see like, is it growing? Like, maybe it's been there. And it's just like, that's how big it's going to be. It's not going to get any better, which a lot of the time is what happens with older people. Because it is very slow growing tumor. And it's almost like they're going to die from things other than like, they wouldn't die from this. But like, there's no point in treating it if it's just slow growing, and they're already old. Don't

Scott Benner 25:47
worry, your McDonald's fries are gonna get you before this does. Yeah, great.

Kim 25:51
Yeah. So that then in my situation being 26, they were like, Yeah, we're probably going to do something. But let's see, like how quickly it's growing. So then I waited a couple of months, and then yet another MRI and it had gotten bigger in that time. So it seemed pretty clear that we should do something before it got even bigger. Okay,

Scott Benner 26:09
so it has to be removed physically, they art is this, how does this happen? It's

Kim 26:17
a rare tumor. Like if you go on Google, it's like one of those things that comes up. And it's like rare. So, which is why I like to say I'm probably the only person who's had this tumor and type one diabetes. You

Scott Benner 26:35
tried to get on television, Kim, what's going on? No, I

Kim 26:37
just think it's funny, like the intersection of that anyway,

Scott Benner 26:40
I do to actually, I'm always like, my brain gets fried. But I'm like somebody comes on. And they have six incredibly rare issues. Yeah. Oh, my God, that's just like, the oddest luck, you know?

Kim 26:54
Yeah. Because it's rare, you have to go to a place like a hospital that with doctors who do this a lot, in order to like, get a good result. Because it's a very small space that they are working in, especially if they're going to be doing surgery to physically remove it. Because it's just, it's a very, very tiny space in your head. At the time, like I said, we were living in Washington, DC. So I went up to Johns Hopkins, and met with doctors there, oh, first time that with doctors at Georgetown, because that was nearest and then went up to Hopkins. And then there's also a, like standalone kind of clinic Hospital in LA that does this a lot, held the house ear clinic. And so I also sent my stuff to them to look at to give me like a third opinion. So like, this is the sort of thing where like it can, because it is slow growing, you don't need to rush into anything. And you should get multiple opinions from different doctors about a treatment plan. Because, like, you don't want to have to do it more than once. And there's just a lot of options. But it's also a lot to decide.

Scott Benner 28:11
Yeah, I was gonna say, because what happens? I mean, it's like if I go to three people and say, What color do I paint my garage? And somebody goes purple, someone says read and someone says blue, you're like, Oh, is that how it goes? Or what are they pretty similar?

Kim 28:25
It can be. So a lot of the time, if you go to a person who does surgery, like physical surgery, they're gonna recommend that option because that's what they know, if you go to a radiation specialist, they're going to recommend that because that's what they know. Luckily, in my situation, being as young as I was, even the radiation specialist said, I should do surgery because there hadn't been enough time with like, you know, seeing what happens to people who had radiation, you know, 40 years later, there hasn't been enough of that, for them to be confident in recommending that to someone who's 26.

Scott Benner 29:06
You got the I'm not going to kill you answer. Yeah. So,

Kim 29:10
so everyone recommended that I do surgery. So that was that made that easier to decide that part. And then it was like, Where do I want to do it? And then I did end up having that done to at Johns Hopkins Hospital.

Scott Benner 29:22
That's good hospital. So kinda like you're in that part of the country. I guess when that happened. Yeah. How long did it take you to figure out what to do?

Kim 29:32
The diagnosis was like in August 2008. And that I had the surgery in February 2009. And I had decided to do that probably by Thanksgiving,

Scott Benner 29:44
and the time living with it. I'm super interested in the psychological aspect of this, like, do you have that there's something in my brain feeling or does it not? Go like that?

Kim 29:56
I so I kind of there's a situation like this Probably from living with diabetes for a long time, at that point already, like, you know, you just kind of roll with it. Like I named the tumor I named it Manny. And so like my co workers, and I would like talk about Manny, like, how are you feeling about Manny? And I'm like, I'm gonna go like, evict Vanie what I was going to go get surgery done, you know, so it's just like, you just kind of like, go with it. And I didn't get too overwhelmed or upset because it was like a research project then. And I like research projects. And

Scott Benner 30:36
it Kim's like, it gave me something to do.

Kim 30:41
Yeah, yeah. And yeah, so I didn't get too overwhelmed or upset. And I just kind of, you know, went with it.

Scott Benner 30:48
You're married at that point? Yeah. Okay. Not a lot for your spouse to do.

Kim 30:54
No, he listened but, and helped make decisions. But he, you know, left it more up to me, because he's sort of, he doesn't want to take responsibility for other people's decisions. So like, he'll offer input, but like, ultimately, it needs to be up to the person making the decision. Yeah. He doesn't like telling people what to do.

Scott Benner 31:17
Does he not like getting yelled at later? Or does he not like,

Kim 31:22
I don't? Well, probably both. But I think it's more like he doesn't want to feel guilty later. If someone it's interesting. Like what happened? Yeah,

Scott Benner 31:29
no, that's very interesting. Did you know, of course, you would have no way of knowing this game. But when I was very, very young, and Kelly and I were only married for a few years, this opportunity came up to buy the house that we live in now. And it was at the time, a great piece of property and a really the house. And so the price was right. And I said, you know, we could sell our condo and make, you know, we can make some money. Our condo appreciated crazy. Like the first year we lived in it for reasons I still don't understand like it by the way, and the price went like right back down again. Like we somehow just took a bunch of money out of it laughed, and then people were like, they're not really worth that much. I was like too late. We're going. And so anyway, yep, years later. And I mean, years later, my wife says, I didn't want to buy this house. And I was like, what you could have mentioned that years ago, and she's like, now you seemed like something you wanted to do. And that's what it made me think of when you said that about your husband like, like, like, what if like I didn't, by the way I had no, it never occurred to me that that's how she felt. Yeah. And so was really interesting. And we've talked about that more. As, as times gone on, not just here, but I've heard about on the podcast, and people talking about how sometimes it's interesting. People can feel unheard, and not say anything. And the person who has a more I don't know what like, like, defined position can say like, Oh, I think we should paint the garage blue. And you're standing there thinking, I don't think we should do that. But you don't say anything. I think you agree. And you think I don't listen to you. Such an interesting thing.

Kim 33:22
Yeah, I have to be careful with that with like my husband. Yeah. So we've been married since 2006. And together since 2001. So it's been a long time. And this has been a thing that has developed is, I think a lot of the time like, so we're very both very independent. But like, there's certain things that each of us care about more than the other one. So a lot of the time, like, if it's something that he cares a lot about, and I don't have a strong opinion, then I'll just go with what he wants. But if there is something about it that I'm like, I don't think we should then I will say that. But then so I think it works out because then we aren't we don't not say something when we do feel something but generally we just let the other person who cares more. Do the thing that they care for. Have

Scott Benner 34:09
you ever done the thing where nobody speaks up? And you're 35 minutes into a movie or a meal or something and you realize no one wants to be there. I think that's hilarious. When that happens. You're like wait,

Kim 34:21
yeah, definitely hasn't with movies. Yeah, we're was like, like, halfway into it. Like is this is pretty bad. And

Scott Benner 34:27
you're like, but you want to come? You want it to come? Yeah, so Okay, so how did they get that? How did they get money out of your head? Through your ear? They go through your nose, your eyeball socket? Well, what do you do?

Kim 34:43
There are different options. So I had the retros sigmoid approach, which is when they go through like the base of your skull of the back of your neck behind your ear. So he like So another option would be to go through the ear, but then you are automatically losing your hearing that way. And I still had pretty good hearing in that side, it was my left side. By the way, we haven't said that yet. It's my left ear. So we didn't go with that approach. And then there is like an overlay over the top of the ear. I felt what that one's called. But we didn't do that one either. Because of where the tumor was located, it wouldn't get a good angle. So we went in from the back the bottom back. And so they drilled a hole in my skull. And then they, I don't know, move some stuff out of the way. And went in there, behind my ear and removed the tuba. How long does that take? It took a very long time. I think I was in surgery for like 10 hours. Holy

Scott Benner 35:51
Christ. Wow. Was Derek Shepherd there. From Grey's Anatomy Derek Shepherd. Renowned brain surgeon. I've never watched. Stop. What do you highfalutin? You got big ideas? That's crazy. 10 and a half hours? Did you feel like what's the recovery? Like?

Kim 36:12
It was a lot. So I woke up and I felt okay, like, I wasn't really ever in a lot of pain. But obviously, they're giving me pain meds and steroids, which when you have type one diabetes is a problem. And I think I was like, so that was an ICU. And then, so then a bunch of like, crazy stuff happened. So this is where like, the story gets more interesting, really.

Scott Benner 36:43
Fascinating. But there's more. Yeah.

Kim 36:46
It turned out. I lost my hearing in that side. So like, that was kind of a bummer. But I've adapted. We can talk more about that later. Yeah, so but then, okay, so I woke up and I'm an ICU and my husband and my parents are there and then then they leave, I don't know. It's like, the later that night, and then it's a little bit later, and I wake up and I'm being shuttled on a gurney, through this green hallway, this darker green hallway. And I'm like, what is happening? And they're like, we're taking you to get a CT scan. And I'm like, what's going on? And so apparently, I had been like, obviously, I had been intubated while I was under general anesthesia. And then I think they had on disk, I don't know, taking the tube out. But then I developed breathing problems later that night. And so they are taking need for a scan to see if there is something physically wrong. In side of me. I don't know where exactly. So then I got like, re intubated. But I didn't need it to like breathe for me. They just put it into like, hold open the airway.

Scott Benner 38:12
Oh, my goodness. Yeah.

Kim 38:15
So that was kind of scary, because I was still like, kind of out of it. And then I just remember the greed hallway. And then so I think I was worried that I was wearing my insulin pump, and that they were taking me to get a scan. And I was like, the insulin pump can't go in the scanner, you know, like, they're like, looking at me like I'm a crazy person. And because I am not wearing an insulin pump, and why am I talking about that to them? And I just remember that and they were all kind of annoyed

Scott Benner 38:45
by that. They're probably like, Lady your airways closing, we don't prioritize, shall we?

Kim 38:51
The next day, my husband comes back to the hospital and he's like, what's going on? And they're like, We they didn't call you last night? He's like, No. And they're like, Oh, well, she cuz she stopped breathing. He was like, Why didn't anyone call me?

Scott Benner 39:07
I love married people. He's like, Yeah, she'll be fine. I'll go home, though. It's no big deal. He

Kim 39:12
couldn't stay there. Anytime to take care of the cats.

Scott Benner 39:18
I'm trying to get to these animals. Everyone in the whole thing. By the way, I want people to give me credit right now for every time you say the word hearing, I don't go What's that? Because I there's a five year old inside of me that wants to pretend I can't hear as a joke every time someone brings up hearing and I hold it inside. Okay, so thank you.

Kim 39:40
Yeah, that'd be a lot.

Scott Benner 39:41
Oh my god. It would be it'd be like a drinking game. Like you know, and, and I didn't know you lost your hearing from this when we started. Yeah, yeah, I did my gosh. And it's like, is it gone? Gone? Like there's any percentage of it?

Kim 39:56
Um, no. So there's the The hearing nerve got destroyed in the process of removing the tumor that was wrapped around the all the nerves there. So they did, they cut the balance nerve because it's easier to adapt afterwards if you have no balance there versus a damaged valance nerve, and then the hearing nerve, they tried to preserve it, but it was only a wisp by the end of it. And so I lost, I lost my hearing and like a hearing aid doesn't help or even like a cochlear implant like that would not help because there is no nerve from which to derive hearing on that side, if that makes sense. So the only thing I could do is this thing called a Bone Anchored Hearing Aid where you get like a little nub thing drilled into your brain or not your brain, your your skull on that side. And then there's a little amplification thing that would pick up sound. And then like, you know, those like, like bone conducting headphones, it's like that. So then you would, you can then hear what's happening on that side in your other ear. Because it's going through, it's being conducted through the bone in your head. But that has always freaked me out because my problem is like directionality. Like, if I'm in Target, and you're like, Hey, Kim, I'm over here, I have to spin around to look for you. Because I can't everything always felt sounds like it's coming from my right side. So if that doesn't fix that problem, like that's my biggest issue. And so like, I don't want to have more stuff. Board board on to me than I already have with diabetes. So

Scott Benner 41:43
you don't want to hear better, but still direction on the directionally Yeah. Wow, boy, that's crazy. Yeah, so then

Kim 41:50
like when I'm in a crowded place, like it is a little anxiety ridden when I'm like, doing like a happy hour or networking thing. And like I like I just have to like look to see like, I have to apparently look to see if there's someone on my left side, like talking to me. And then I can like, turn my head and hear it. Like I asked them to repeat it. And I turned my head all around so they can put it into the correct ear. So it's that's a little annoying. But it hasn't. There's only been one time that I know of that like someone at work was sitting on my left side, like at a lunch. And then later they were like, I thought Kim didn't like me, because she just ignored me when I was talking to her. And then then later I was like, no, no, no, I can't hear you. I'm sorry. I have like, See, the problem is it's also hard to know what to tell people that you're deaf on your left side because like so like the first thing I want to do when I meet someone who's like, oh, by the way, I'm deaf on this side. But then like I get through it, and then like I get to know them more. And then I've met up with them a few times, and then I still don't tell them. And then I'm like I should have told them already. Because they would be like happy to know that so that they're not making my life harder by always being on my left side, you know, so it's just like, a whole thing.

Scott Benner 43:11
And then on the diabetes on top of that, too, like when do you tell people you have type one? When do you tell people like, Are you do you not? And I actually

Kim 43:19
I think I tell people about diabetes quicker and sooner than I do about being deaf of the left. And

Scott Benner 43:26
I assume that passive aggressively if you're pissed at your husband, you give him your left side. And he knows that means I'm not listening to you. No, no.

Kim 43:35
Oh my god, Kim, but if we're like out to dinner, like I'll put him on my left because he knows that I can't hear him on that side. And then I can use my good ear to hear everybody else better. And then like the he and I don't really talk at dinner and you know, like, I need to hear the people that we're meeting up with not I don't need to hear him.

Scott Benner 43:54
What a sad little look into marriage that was for people younger than you, Kim. Like when I go out to dinner with other people. My husband, I put my husband in the spot where I can't hear him because we weren't going to talk anyway.

Kim 44:06
It works. There's

Scott Benner 44:07
like a 25 year old right now going what? Wait, what happens if I get married? Oh my gosh. How? Yeah. Oh my gosh, it's so much are you okay? Yeah,

Kim 44:21
yeah, I'm good. Um, but then it gets the plot thickens later. No, stop it. Yeah. Oh, wait, but I gotta tell you this one part after surgery. So like I was in surgery for so long in what they call the park bench position, which would be I guess, if you were like sleeping on a park bench, I don't know. So I was like my head was twisted to get to that part of my head and I was like laying down. And so I had I ended up with like a pinched nerve in my neck. And then my left hand was known when I came out of surgery. And it took a couple of months for all the feelings to come back in My hand. How was your

Scott Benner 45:03
diabetes control as a young person? It was good. And what does that mean?

Kim 45:10
I would say like, like a one see what like what would

Scott Benner 45:14
be Yeah, yeah. I mean, your outcomes. Like,

Kim 45:17
I would say, I was like, you know, during the troubling, like puberty times, you know, it was like probably the sevens but other than that, like,

Scott Benner 45:27
not crazy. Yeah. Not crazy. No, no. Okay. Well, I'm looking at the park bench position right now, and it doesn't look comfy. Yeah,

Kim 45:36
I can't imagine having been in that position. But if

Scott Benner 45:40
you don't, if you don't mind surgery, photos, Google park bench position and go to images. Wow, that's bonkers. Yeah, model months for you the feeling to come back? Yeah,

Kim 45:52
like it has the nerve. It was like my pinky came back last because that's the furthest away from the nerve. I guess that's what happened. I don't know. Anyway, but then. So then this other funny thing is like, because I was like, in that position for so long. Like, my body was just like, so stiff. And so eventually, like once I could get up out of bed and start walking around, like, I couldn't turn my head because my neck was just like, stiff, like so stiff. And so I would be walking. And then I'd be like, what? And I would turn at the torso and be like What the So I was like this weird like

Scott Benner 46:30
Frankie cyclists body? Yeah. Walking around now.

Kim 46:34
Yeah. And I kind of had to learn relearn how to walk, because not like I couldn't walk. But like, I didn't have a balanced err on that side. And so then you start walking, not in a straight line side of practice, like walking in a straight line or walking up and down stairs, which is really actually difficult, like down is harder than up because you have to like work against gravity to like, stay upright when you're going down stairs. And so it was like a process of a few months before I felt pretty more comfortable just like walking around. And I was out of work for six weeks after and

Scott Benner 47:11
a number of things that you just don't, you don't even think about ever like the idea that as you're walking downstairs that if you weren't controlling your body, your body would just tumble forward. Yep. That's interesting. Is this about the time your husband redownloaded his dating app? Like there's no way she's making it through all this? I got to do a couple of setups and meet some ladies.

Kim 47:33
No, I'm very resilient. No, no,

Scott Benner 47:35
you are God. Damn right. That's insane. Okay,

Kim 47:38
so then I'll say fast forward as well. So they had some MRIs afterwards that everything was like they was good everything. We got it all. We got it all. They said we got it all. Okay, fast forward to that was 2009. Fast forward to 2015 I start having facial spasms. What is that? Like you meet you want to know? Okay, so the left side of my face would scrunch up from the my mouth and chin up to like my eye and the whole like cheek area with just like crumble in. And it would be stuck like that for like 20 seconds. Like, this seems weird. Yeah. And it would happen when I was like, stressed, or I was laughing or to something, or brushing my teeth, like something would trigger the muscles, and they're just crunched up. So go back to the doctors at Johns Hopkins. And they are like, Well, I mean, look, look in here. Look at this scan like this, this area is lighting up, but it's just scar tissue. See, it's just scar tissue, look at it over the time, scar tissue, scar tissue or like, okay, and suddenly, like we could do Botox so that your face can't scratch up? And I'm like, No, that doesn't, that seems to not really, really fixing the problem that's treating the symptom. And then they're like, Well, maybe you had like, the herpes virus in your head. That is like causing the and I was like, What are you talking about? Like, okay, so that was a problem. And hopefully it was getting worse. And so then in 2016, we moved to Colorado. And I was like, Okay, well, I need to establish care at somewhere out here. And also, maybe these other new people will have some better ideas about these facial spasms that I'm having. So I go meet with like the same kind of doctor here. So there's a there are two surgeons there's the odo learn, like neuro otolaryngologist, which is like, the more like in the brain, ear, nose and throat doctor, surgeon guy, and then there's just like a neurosurgeon who's good at surgery in the brain. So I met with another like otolaryngologist here. And then he was like, that's very suspicious like I know your doctor from Hopkins because we we like, get together we have these, you know, conferences, that all these doctors get together at an eye like I know your doctor. And I'm really surprised that he's telling you it's scar tissue because I think it's regrowth and I'm like, okay, so then he wants me to give him all of my MRIs from inception through now. And he's gonna look at them all in like succession and see what he thinks. And then he takes all of my scans, then to the skull base tumor meetup that they have at the University of Colorado and shoots Medical Center. And so all of the rest of the doctors there that do what he does all look at my images, and they're like, yeah, it's regrowth I sorry, that your doctor at Johns Hopkins. I don't know if he felt like, it just couldn't be because he was there. And he thought he got it all. And it was like an ego thing. Or he just didn't think like, I don't know, but you have regrowth. And I'm like, okay, great. So then I talked to him about doing surgery a second time. And I talked to a radiologist guy that at University of Colorado about doing radiation, he's like, Oh, well, now you're a good candidate for radiation, like, oh, I don't want to go through all this again, okay, so then I, I decide, I'm gonna do something a little crazy. And I'm gonna submit my stuff, my scans and situation to Stanford University, because I know that the doctor there is like one of the best in the whole field. And he does both surgery and radiation. So he should be able to give a better opinion versus just what he wants to do. And so then I started went out there. And at the time, my brother lived in San Francisco, so it was really easy. And so my brother went with me to meet with Dr. Chang there. And he was like, here's the thing, you should have radiation, because first of all, like, no one wants to do surgery on someone else's surgery. And really, you don't want to do it again, on your own surgery anyway. Because like, you like when someone goes into that small of a space and does surgery, they're like messing up all the landmarks of how you know where anything is in the in the brain in the head. And like, and they leave it a certain way that someone else doesn't like and if they like, if they sometimes they will, like rebuild the structures in your brain, like using bone dust and things, which I think my surgeon did do. And so like that just like makes it even harder for anyone else to go back in there and figure anything out.

Scott Benner 52:59
I imagine they get in there. They don't even know what they're looking at them. Yeah, yeah. So

Kim 53:03
he was like, No. And also, like, You should do this thing that so they at Stanford, they invented this thing called CyberKnife. So it's like the next generation of radiation machines were so like the first generation or even before that a Linac machine like all these things like you can't move when you are getting zapped in a certain spot. And the way they do that is they would screw a steel frame into your skull, and then they hold it in place. So you can't move once they figured out where the radiation beam should go in your head. But that's kind of scary, and I didn't really want to have a steel frame screwed into my head. So what they invented at Stanford is CyberKnife and what that does is you still have a thing that holds you still so it was like this, like face mask kind of thing like this, it was like this plastic mesh, that like they warm up and then they drape it over your, the front of my face. And then that whole like it makes a mold of my face to then put back onto me when they're going to do the zapping and then that gets screwed into the table that I'm laying on. So they can't move but also the way that they invented the CyberKnife is that it is continuously readjusting its position like it knows what it needs to aim at. And then it can like readjust or stop if the person does move. Like if you sneeze in the middle of it like it will just stop. And so it was like this new thing. And so I was like okay, I that all makes a lot of sense. I agree with you. I think this is the place to do it. So then I went back to Stanford around Thanksgiving of 20 16 No, no, no, no, no, it was Thanksgiving 2017 We went back to Stanford, and had CyberKnife radiation done for the regrowth

Scott Benner 55:13
people should look it up. It's a really interesting looking device. Really, really kind of amazing that somebody came in

Kim 55:19
it. Like I only needed like 24 minutes or 20 minutes of radiation. And then I was done. Wow. And I had nothing. Like, there's no I had no issues afterwards. And then the really funny thing. So there's the doctor that I met with who was like the head of everything. And then there he works with the radiation surgeon to like to figure out like how many units of radiation they're going to do and how to like program the machine to do it. And that guy, so I had been reading on the acoustic neuroma forums that like people still get prescribed steroids after the radiation. I was like, I really don't want to deal with steroids. So I asked that the radiation guy I was like, so I've seen that like, all the time people take steroids after, do I really need that. Like, because I have type one diabetes that just makes everything hurt. And then he gets this. He was like, I also have type one diabetes that I totally understand. And no, you don't need steroids, we usually just give them to people. So they feel like they got something.

Scott Benner 56:25
Oh, wow.

Kim 56:29
We're like, Yes, this is awesome.

Scott Benner 56:30
Finally, I get more people on my team. Yes. Yeah. Really crazy. And through this whole thing, you know, in between these big events, you doesn't have any impact on your blood sugar or your management or the way you have to deal with your type one or not particularly?

Kim 56:48
No, I mean, once I was still a steroids, I, yeah, nothing was really impacting diabetes. About

Scott Benner 56:55
that. So is that kind of what you meant earlier, when you said that? You're I mean, you didn't come right out and say you're grateful to have diabetes. But that's about what you said. You said, like, prepare you for this, I guess is the question. I

Kim 57:09
would say, in a way, because I'm the like, I'm accustomed to dealing with things that I can't change. And that are like, life impacting medical thing? Yeah. So I think I just, it wasn't like a new thing to have something to deal with basically.

Scott Benner 57:30
Like, I think some people live their lives expecting like, a straight path with no impact and no impediments. And you're accustomed to being somewhere and your blood sugar getting low or having to remember to do something before you do something else, or change a pump on your way out the door. Like that kind of stuff. And so when somebody starts laying obstacles in front of you, you're like, alright, well, we'll just go pet will get past these things. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's perspective. That's really crazy. Wow, Kim. Yeah.

Kim 58:01
So now I am what, like, 657? I don't know. See, I am not good at math up until now. No, you don't need to know math to do accounting,

Scott Benner 58:15
you need to know the laws.

Kim 58:18
Yeah. So anyway, I have had periodic MRIs as follow ups at different intervals since then. And so far, see, I thought that I'd be like, freaking out about having radiation because I want to know everything right away. Like, I'm like, I'm very impatient. And I want to know everything. And this is going to take time for it to like, do its thing. But I haven't been as worried about it as I thought I would be. And actually, I don't really ever think about it at all. So but on the scan since then, it has been the tumor has been like shrinking a little bit. And like, looking like it's dying, which is what it's supposed to do. So it will just be a dead thing in my head. And that's, that's okay.

Scott Benner 59:05
Well, and you don't see them other places like they haven't appeared on your spine or other places like that. So honestly, it's a lot of good news. Yeah, yeah. All right. So you're telling me that the other week as I was leaving my accountants appointment, because he was preparing our taxes, and I asked him this question, and he pulled out a calculator. And I thought, That's not difficult math. Why did he just grab a calculator? I'm not the only one. Oh, interesting.

Kim 59:32
Like for also the software like a lot of time like I work in Excel a lot. Excel is gonna add it for me. I don't need to add up all these numbers or, like in the tax software, like you just need to know where to put in the numbers and it will do its thing like, I don't need to do a lot of manual adding, except with the years sometimes

Scott Benner 59:52
Kim This is reinforcing my idea that society is being held together with a lot of luck.

Kim 1:00:00
In computer theaters,

Scott Benner 1:00:01
how can here's a question for you? I have no overhead I won't the government helped me. It's not my fault that I built a business that needs a few $1,000 worth of equipment and a room in my house. Why am I being punished? I am being punished, aren't I?

Kim 1:00:24
Um, you can hire someone to do

Scott Benner 1:00:28
I talked to the guy about that. And it's not a one to one thing. It's not like if I pay someone $1 I save $1 No, not directly, right. So if I hire somebody, I lose more money.

Kim 1:00:42
You could gain time. Oh,

Scott Benner 1:00:44
that's what every accountant says. And that's bullshit. I don't need time. I need to buy a house on a mountain one day or, like more probably more likely pay for like some lady to change my diapers. That's probably what I'm really saving for. Right? But right, you're like, Yeah, probably.

Kim 1:01:05
No, we have to like we don't have kids or like, what are we gonna do?

Scott Benner 1:01:10
Well, those cats are just going to each other not going to help at all. Yeah, can you imagine if at the end, you're just like, Oh, no. A bear is gonna find this eventually. I guess that would work out and the rheumatologist moved out years ago. Yeah. Oh my gosh, you have a four by four like a four wheeler like an ATV. No.

Kim 1:01:31
Other people do. I don't know that we need one. At this point. We upgraded to a Ford Bronco so that we have more of a check truck kind of car.

Scott Benner 1:01:42
fair to people moving up into the hills, the locals there's no way the locals like you in my right.

Kim 1:01:48
I had jury duty last week at in this county. And there. I had told them that I had just moved here because I ended up on the jury. And then you have to like tell them about yourself.

Scott Benner 1:02:00
And we're like, oh, we know who you are. Don't worry.

Kim 1:02:04
Then the one guy like he lived there his whole life and he's talking to this other guy. And here's like, the yuppie years I'm like, I know I'm a Denver yuppie. I guess I just am a Denver Yuffie it is what it is.

Scott Benner 1:02:16
They're already spreading like Bear stuff on your house to draw them to you. They're like, we'll get rid of these people. No trouble. Wait till they wake up to a bear standing in their driveway leaning on their Bronco. There'll be out of here in five minutes. We can have the place back to get to turn your house into a commune garden. No, oh, yeah. I mean, what would grow in Denver? Nothing right at that height. It's ready. Maybe some sort of a pine tree. Okay, so a couple of things. I'm glad you're okay. I have no recourse tax wise. Is that what you're telling me?

Kim 1:02:51
No, make less money and then you won't have

Scott Benner 1:02:53
to pay as much tax I have to tell you. It's interesting. When you hear somebody say something like that, like, you know, really, if you pay if you made less money, you'd pay less taxes and I'm like, okay, okay. So I shouldn't try to be successful with it. I know.

Kim 1:03:07
I know. It's it's not fair to the normal people that this is how it works. I'm

Scott Benner 1:03:13
not wealthy. By the way, Kim, I don't want to give off the impression that I like there's piles of money in the corner. I don't know what to do with them. Like, you know, like, it's not. It's, yeah, I worked my butt off all year when I get done. I'm like, This is what's left. Okay, no, I understand. It's like it's you know what, it's enough to make you want to do keep working. Oh, yeah. You go I better. I had other ideas though. It's like, it's enough to make you go I bet. I guess I better keep going. Because yeah, that didn't do it. So. All right. Okay. Well, that's just nobody and you charge a ton of money to now what I'm understanding is to plug my information into a spreadsheet.

Kim 1:03:51
Hey, we cost less than lawyers that

Scott Benner 1:03:55
how you make yourself feel better can

Kim 1:03:59
be sometimes where we go oh my gosh.

Scott Benner 1:04:02
Well, I guess I should have been a lawyer is what you're telling me? Maybe as podcasting things not paying off the way I was, like, hoping you know, is there anything we didn't talk about that we should have or any other directions you want to go? Well,

Kim 1:04:14
you didn't ask me about other autoimmune in my family and I did research on that.

Scott Benner 1:04:21
I definitely want to hear that I was busy being proud of myself for not going what every time you said hearing and for not making a joke about a head injury when I knew you had a brain tumor. So because you said something earlier and I was like Oh, is that because you had a head injury? And I was like that's not even a good joke. I'll hold that in. So you have well how about you first of all, do you have anything else?

Kim 1:04:43
I'm just the allergies. Yeah, I don't really have for you, but bad

Scott Benner 1:04:48
enough that you're getting like, like what like one of those wants monthly injections?

Kim 1:04:53
Yeah, allergy shots. They like put in the they put it in the shot like a little bit of the thing you're allergic to and then you're supposed to Be desensitized over time.

Scott Benner 1:05:02
Does that work?

Kim 1:05:04
It worked for my brother. So he's always been like, why don't you get allergy shots? And like, I don't want to go there all the time to get a shot. Like, I don't care about getting a shot, obviously, but I don't want to go there all the time. But

Scott Benner 1:05:16
I'm busy stealing money from people to do their taxes. Yeah. Hey, before we dive into this is your year, like very busy for a short period of time? And then what do you do when it's when tax season is over? Well,

Kim 1:05:29
okay, so I used to work in public accounting. So that was where I did people's taxes during the tax season, like January to April. And then the rest of the year, I did audits, mostly of nonprofit organizations. And so that kept me busy the rest of the year. So I was like, busy year round. And then after that, so I did that. I worked at that firm for like eight years. And then I worked at a firm here in Denver, where they only do audits of nonprofit organizations. Because I thought like that I wanted to be with people again, which I don't and then it was hybrid. And I was like, why am I going to this office? This is a waste of my time. Yeah. Oh, so then I quit that after eight months. And now I'll just I work at JDRF in the finance department. Oh,

Scott Benner 1:06:28
that's very nice. Look at you. Yeah. Can you just divert some of that money to the podcast? Or is that illegal? That's probably Yeah, that was probably illegal. Okay. Nevermind. Well, that's interesting, because I always like I imagined my like an accountant, as a person who just like after tax season's over, just sits there and goes, I hope nobody gets audited.

Kim 1:06:50
Well, the people who only do taxes like that is kind of what they do, but I don't like being bored. So I just like sign up for all the work you could possibly do at

Scott Benner 1:06:59
the firm. Very nice. That's excellent. Okay, so, allergies to pets. Yes, no, thyroid. Celiac. I do not read a Lago. No. Any bipolar in the family? Yes.

Kim 1:07:14
My dad. And he has Parkinson's now, which I think is like they're trying to figure out if that is auto I

Scott Benner 1:07:24
mean, at some point, I imagined in the future that people will use this podcast as part of a research study about bipolar disorder and its relationship to autoimmune issues. That's, that's fascinating. How was it growing up with a bipolar father? Well, we

Kim 1:07:39
didn't know it until, like, 2007. What precipitated it? He had a period of? Well,

Scott Benner 1:07:53
you're laughing you're like, he wrote a mountain lion down the middle of the road. And it didn't seem scared Scott. And we know ya know

Kim 1:08:01
what, he had a manic episode that then we all found out about what he was doing in his free time, which wasn't really ideal. And then and he like, my mom was in the hospital for double knee replacement surgery. And he, like, basically, like, he was like, I'm going out with my friends. And my brother and I were like, you don't have friends? What are you talking about? Then my brother went on the computer to figure out where he was going. And then we found out what he was doing. And then he lied to us. He was doing and then Mom gets out of the hospital and then she finds out more about what he's doing. And it's yeah, that's what we found

Scott Benner 1:08:46
out came out and do you know the phrase tickle your ass with a feather?

Kim 1:08:52
Repeat more like what my dad was doing?

Scott Benner 1:08:53
No. Let's see. That's that's what you just did you. You just tickled my ass with a feather a little bit. You didn't You didn't give me the whole thing you just gave me enough for I was like, Oh, there's more but she's not going to say just please. broad sweeping. She was going

Kim 1:09:07
to to dungeons and doing things. Excellent.

Scott Benner 1:09:13
Yes. Wow. Good dad. Yeah. The guy that takes out the garbage. And that guy, my dad who's a pastor. Thank you, Kim. I didn't know that. But I appreciate you sharing that.

Kim 1:09:26
Now this is turning into after dark. Okay.

Scott Benner 1:09:29
Because we talked about taxes. It's what Wow, yeah, sorry. When did that like moment lead him to get health care or did that moment lead him to be like I'm done with your people.

Kim 1:09:45
That moment led him to get more health care and get more that was like the beginning of all like he takes like 30 Some pills a day now. So that's like the beginning. thing of that process. sounds

Scott Benner 1:10:02
easier just to let somebody tie your balls up of the thing, but I mean, okay. The 30 pills is a lot. Well, it's Parkinson's and everything. Oh, yeah, I'm sorry. All right, right. Wow. That's how often does that come up at family events?

Kim 1:10:20
Well, it's not, we never have really like, talked about it a whole lot as a family. And I talked about it. I talked with my mom a little bit, but we never really talked about with my dad. And at this point, I don't think he even really

Scott Benner 1:10:33
know not like he was doing. So I didn't mean with him. I meant like when you and your brothers sitting together, do you ever just look at each other? And go, Hey, how about that time, we found that dad was going to a dungeon periodically

Kim 1:10:45
as every couple years really? That was?

Scott Benner 1:10:53
Does it make you worry about your mental health? Do you think like, Oh, I am looking out for that for myself? Or is it one of the reasons you didn't have kids?

Kim 1:11:00
Sometimes I think about it. So my brother also had OCD. And so like, I am generally a very anxious person. So I don't think I need to worry about it. Like I've talked to people and they're like, you don't need to worry about it. Like, also, if you were doing something, if you were being manic and all that, like we were totally like,

Scott Benner 1:11:29
Did you in hindsight, do you look back and see his behavior being different? Or was he just masking it somehow? Yeah,

Kim 1:11:37
he was masking it and also that we just like, like his narcissism and all that kind of stuff. Like we just thought that was how he was like, he kind of fly off the handle at times when I was growing up. And, like, I just thought that was just how he was but now like, knowing that he has bipolar disorder, I think that's what it was, but we just didn't know that. I'm

Scott Benner 1:12:01
so disappointed that I said, masking it not gag balling it. Really. Okay, that must mess with you. Know, no therapy. Kim, you didn't go talk to a therapist about this. Um,

Kim 1:12:14
I have talked to a therapist, but we haven't like, it's more just like, that's part of my whole thing. I don't need to unpack it. Yeah,

Scott Benner 1:12:21
I mean, I don't know what you do is what it is. Yeah. I mean, I have to imagine that. I mean, everybody's parents are doing something they don't know about your thing is just comically odd. That's all like you don't have Yeah, when you hear about it. Yeah. Wow. I had to a bit shocking moment. Boy find your iPhone really screwed him over. Is that right? Like is that? Well, it

Kim 1:12:45
was it was that he kept his password to his Gmail or Yahoo mail or whatever, like on a sticky note next to the computer. And so then my brother was able to figure out

Scott Benner 1:12:56
any chance that the password was titty Twister.

Kim 1:12:59
I don't know what it

Scott Benner 1:13:01
is. By the way, I found a way to say a lot of words that you're not supposed to say. But I've said them in ways that are acceptable. Isn't it interesting? Like I could say like, bounces balls. That's okay. I don't have to bleep that out. But if I said something a different way, you wouldn't be able to continue twisters, a colloquialism, which is the word you used earlier. So I'm okay with that. And I could have said Purple Nurple. But I think that's too old and that people wouldn't have gotten that one. Holy hell. That's a great story. Kim, you should be a stand up comic. By the way. No, no, no, no, no. And then because every time people don't like what you're saying you would turn your left side to them and just pretend it wasn't happening. I really see. I think you've got 15 minutes and you easily.

Kim 1:13:46
Yeah, I might. I

Scott Benner 1:13:47
might. No kidding. And your husband is he just scared off to the side waiting for this ride to end or sleeping okay with the office.

Kim 1:13:56
He's okay. Like he and my dad never got along.

Scott Benner 1:14:01
That's okay. Because your dad asked to spank him and he said no problem. No,

Kim 1:14:05
it was because my dad he's he like because we were in Ohio and then my dad. We're gonna move to Chicago after graduating from college. And then my dad was like convinced that he was my husband. Not my husband yet was going to take me to Chicago and abandoned me. They're

Scott Benner 1:14:25
like a western film from the 1870s Don't let them move you to the Dust Bowl. He'll leave you for another woman. Yeah,

Kim 1:14:32
that was the joke that I was. Right. And like this time, I was like, now my TED thinks that he's gonna take me up to this rural house and oh,

Scott Benner 1:14:43
well, that might be right about it. He's you're definitely getting fed to a bear. And he's your husband like, I don't know what happened. Actually. It's good thing you recorded this because when you turn up dead, they're gonna use this. So be careful and you won't hear the bear coming. So you're in trouble. Get an amen. Do you ever think About I would I have to be honest with you, if I move somewhere where there was a bear, I parked my car on top of the front door, dive out the front door into the car and drive away.

Kim 1:15:09
I think you just don't want to leave food outside, which we have not been doing. So I think we're going to be okay.

Scott Benner 1:15:15
Okay, I'm just saying people moved out of the woods on purpose. You know, I'm saying that you went back. You did a lot backwards. You used to be by the way people made money to get away from wildlife. You're like, no, no, no, I've made some money. I'm gonna go back to the wildlife. All right. Well, I hope this is a by the way. Did you say Bobcat or mountain lion earlier? Did I say that? I

Kim 1:15:34
did. No. Those are both options to the could show up.

Scott Benner 1:15:38
What about snakes? Um,

Kim 1:15:41
I don't. I don't know.

Scott Benner 1:15:42
Don't make me google it and ruin your day cam?

Kim 1:15:45
Well, it's okay. It's fine. Like there's there's rattlesnakes, like, Oh, my trials and things. Oh

Scott Benner 1:15:52
my god. It

Kim 1:15:53
just depends on your elevation whether or not they're going to be there because they I'm past eight under tree line. But I think we're still under treeline here. So they're definitely going to go there could be snakes out

Scott Benner 1:16:05
there. Yeah, absolutely insane. What you just said made me think, like, I don't know why Denver's not a desert. If that's the truth, like I don't go where there's a snake. That doesn't happen to me. I can't I can't tell I'm not doing I'm not doing that. I just don't. I don't understand what you did. Like, I'd be like, well, that's why the house is for sale. Because the man who woke up one day. And there was a bear beating a bobcat with a snake and he's like, I can't live in this weird animal sex dungeon anymore. I gotta get out of here. And he sold it to us suckers. That's all I can say.

Kim 1:16:44
Yeah, we're gonna put up a fence. That'll help

Scott Benner 1:16:47
him. I don't know what to name this episode. Don't be like, because if you think about it, you were a little nervous in the beginning. So let's start off a little nervous.

Kim 1:16:58
No, no, I was.

Scott Benner 1:17:00
I felt nervous. What's the word? Not nervous? You didn't open all the way up yet. You made just a little intrepid like at first, right? So we get

Kim 1:17:09
you kind of can. Like this is how we ended up where we are now. Yeah, sounds like oh boy. I don't know

Scott Benner 1:17:15
yet. Because voice in your head. That's like, somehow this guy is gonna find out about my dad. That's when there are people who won't come on this podcast. They're like, I know what's gonna happen. You're gonna get you're gonna get me comfortable. And we're gonna start joking and talking. And the next thing you know, I'm gonna say something I don't want anybody else to know. And I'm like, Yeah, that's the whole point of the book. I know. You think the points diabetes? You know, I mean, loosely. Oh, yeah, I guess I should ask you at the end. Do you pump you have a CGM?

Kim 1:17:46
Um, yeah, I have a tandem and Dexcom. Using the

Scott Benner 1:17:49
control IQ. Yes. Excellent. works well for you.

Kim 1:17:53
It's okay. I hope that there's a time when you can turn off the auto correction when you're in exercise mode. Oh,

Scott Benner 1:18:03
okay. So you get moving. Running from a bobcat, and your blood sugar starts falling too quickly?

Kim 1:18:12
Well, it's like, it'll be like when I'm going out for a bike ride. And then I eat a snack. But then you know, the exercise. Didn't use the snack yet. And then it boluses but I'm like, No, I needed those carbs. Like I'm gonna need them in 20 minutes. Why did you give me insulin? I didn't want insulin on board.

Scott Benner 1:18:32
I gotcha. So you would like it to be a little more intuitive? Yeah,

Kim 1:18:36
because otherwise, like, what I had been doing is just turning off control IQ, but then you don't get the low protection unless you turn it back on like after, right? Like you remember to turn it back on. So that was a problem. But I have heard that that will be a new software feature on the next update, so maybe they will be doing

Scott Benner 1:18:56
okay. Hey, my last question is, is there any chance you're left handed?

Kim 1:18:59
I am not left handed.

Scott Benner 1:19:02
If you could teach yourself. Here's why I ask. Because first of all, I've never given this advice to anybody before that I'm out of my depth. But I think you should have a gun. Oh, that I think you should teach yourself to shoot left handed so that when it makes the noise doesn't hurt your that's what I was gonna say. This year. I'm being serious. This is my best advice for you after speaking to you for an hour and 20 minutes. You have you have a gun.

Kim 1:19:24
No, but now I have to tell my husband that you you think we should because everyone else he's told thinks as crazy but he thinks that like either we are going to need one for an animal attacking the dogs or something or there's just like, like, we're in the middle of nowhere and someone could just drive up the road and end up at our house and then be like, yeah, and then we have no protection from someone attacking us at home.

Scott Benner 1:19:53
Have you ever seen Pulp Fiction, Kim?

Kim 1:19:56
Um, that's a good question. I Don't know.

Scott Benner 1:20:00
Well, Kim, first of all Pulp Fiction is the best movie anyone's ever made. You should watch it. But there's going to and I don't want to ruin it for you now, but I'm just saying you could end up in Zeds dungeon in your own house and yeah, again, I want to shut down at the very least I know nothing about guns by the way, first of all, but I think I think a shotgun like a little just something to like, maybe put a little buckshot in something can get them out, get them moving a little bit, even a little bird shot. Maybe you don't I mean, just to you know, get them get them thinking the right way. Also, your husband's clearly going to shoot the dog instead of the bobcat.

Kim 1:20:34
No, no, no.

Scott Benner 1:20:35
So your husband said he thinks maybe gun. He has mentioned it a few times. I'd have one if I was you. And floodlights on the roof. That was like, Oh my God, I don't know what you're gonna die up there. That's all I want to say.

Kim 1:20:52
That's okay, it's it's pretty. I like it. Well,

Scott Benner 1:20:54
let's see this and being really serious. Yes, absolutely. Rock solid internet connection.

Kim 1:21:01
Oh, yeah. It's a dish that goes to a tower and because there's so high up, there's like nothing in between us.

Scott Benner 1:21:10
Oh, my God, you've got the best connection. And I was panic because at the beginning you were like, Why didn't want to go in that room? Because the garage door is shaking because of the wind. And I'm like, this lady is living on a fishing trawler somewhere. I don't know what's happening. Exactly. But my goodness. What a listen. Being serious. Congratulations on the new house. I'm sure you won't die up there. anytime soon. Oh, no, no, I'm sure it'll be fine. Yeah, but that's really it's really I think it's interesting the moves you made like and I and it also shows I want to be serious for a second. Okay. You don't have like there's no I don't you're not scared of life is what it feels like to me. Again, it almost feels like to me like you're like look, I got diabetes. I'm okay. At this thing grown in my head. I'm okay. I'm gonna move up to the top of the mountain now and try this like I really Yeah, I'm envious a little bit of in the free in the freeway. You did this thing?

Kim 1:22:05
Yeah, we're kind of like we're not risk takers. But we want to like make sure we live life, I guess.

Scott Benner 1:22:13
No, you live on a mountain with a bear. You're a risk taker. Alright, so let's get a shotgun. And let's get let's talk to somebody who knows about not the people in town because they're already pissed. You're there. But like, you know, I may be a big knife. You like a like a like, I don't know, in case you get into a tussle? You might need to ship something. I don't know, Kim. Like, how did Daniel Boone do it? Daniel Boone was somebody right? Like, how did he do that?

Kim 1:22:43
I always just think of the Revenant and Leonardo DiCaprio fighting like grizzly bear. But these would be black bears. So it's not Oh,

Scott Benner 1:22:51
yeah. It's much easier to beat up a black bear. You'll be fine. You don't know what you're talking about. Kim, you got to get on the internet and properly scare yourself. Maybe all right, you're gonna have like a 12 gauge. Like five minutes from now. You're gonna be in the Walmart like I need a gun. Hello? Anyone? They're gonna be like us. Another one of these ladies buying a gun. That Bronco has never been offered. That's what they're gonna say. Would you pull? Oh, my God, Kim. You're terrific. Thank you so much. I appreciate this very much. Thank you. Yep, hold on one second for me

well, a huge thanks to Kim for open and honest interview. And we're also going to thank us met us med.com/juice box or call 888-721-1514. I'd also like to thank contour makers of the contour next gen blood glucose meter, and remind you to go to contour next one.com/juicebox To get the most accurate meter that I've ever used. Check out the Juicebox Podcast private Facebook group Juicebox Podcast type one diabetes. And of course if you're an apple podcast user, head into those settings, and choose all new episodes. Thank you so much for listening, and for supporting the show. I'll be back very soon with another episode of The Juicebox Podcast next week, December 11 12th and 13th. What are you getting? What are you getting? Brand new Omni pod five content. Make sure you're subscribed and following

#1077 Crash Course Road Trip

Jason's son has type 1 diabetes.

+ Click for EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Scott Benner 0:00
Hello friends, and welcome to episode 1077 of the Juicebox Podcast.

Today on the podcast I'll be speaking with Jason. He's the father of a 13 year old living with type one diabetes, after an acquaintance noticed that Noah looked a little thin, everything began. While you're listening today, please remember that nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise, always consult a physician before making any changes to your health care plan. Were becoming bold with insulin. couple of brief announcements beginning next week on Monday, brand new Omni pod five content remember the Pro Tip series for the Omnipod five. These three new episodes will be an extension of that content beginning in your podcast players on December 11. Make sure you're subscribed or following right now so you don't miss anything. For those of you who are already subscribed in Apple podcasts, the new iOS 17 has messed up your downloads possibly please take a look and make sure that you're set up correctly so that you'll hear the podcast go to the show in your library. Go up to the top right hit the three little dots, then down to Settings, then automatic downloads and choose all new episodes. This episode of The Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by touched by type one touched by type one.org fantastic organization helping people with type one diabetes, and all they want you to do is know about them. Find them on Facebook, Instagram, and at touched by type one.org. The podcast is also sponsored today by Omni pod Omni pod.com/juice box head over there now and get yourself an omni pod five, or an omni pod dash, where the same tubeless insulin pump that my daughter has been wearing since she was four years old, where an omni pod. The show is also sponsored today by cozy Earth. Cozy Earth makes the best sheets and towels and clothing that I've ever worn. I mean soft and quality and temperate like never too hot, never too cold. Fantastic stuff. And the best news here is that at cozy earth.com All you have to do to save 40% is use the offer code juice box at checkout use juice box at checkout at cozy earth.com to save 40% off of your entire order.

Jason 2:40
My name is Jason, father of a type one diabetic who just turned 13 years old. Noah and we live in northeast Texas, due east of Dallas in a town called Tyler.

Scott Benner 2:54
Noah is 13 Yes

Jason 2:56
just turned 13 in January has had diabetes for

Scott Benner 3:00
a couple years now.

Jason 3:01
Couple of years.

Scott Benner 3:02
Okay. Is there anyone else in the family with autoimmune stuff?

Jason 3:06
Not that we're aware of. So to say it took us by surprise is an understatement. He has we have an older sister, who was 16. She has no autoimmune issues. And then of course my wife, no history in her family that we're aware of?

Scott Benner 3:24
Nothing for you.

Jason 3:26
Nothing for me. Okay.

Scott Benner 3:28
How did his diabetes present to you?

Jason 3:33
So, he had started complaining about constantly being thirsty to my wife for a couple of weeks. He was getting up to go to the bathroom quite a bit at night, again, was telling my wife about this. I'll never forget we actually had some of our friends. He's a baseball player. So we were playing a lot of travel ball at the time. And our friends actually commented on his appearance to me and said he just he doesn't look like himself. And that's when I finally woke up a little bit and took a good look at him. And realize he does look kind of puny. He lost some weight. All of this in complete denial I attributed to he's going through a growth spurt. Finally, there was one night where he actually wet the bed. And that had not happened in 10 years, probably 10 years sometimes, right? It's like, oh, that's definitely a red flag we had already. Well, my wife had already booked a doctor's appointment for him on Thursday and we got them to bump it up to Monday when he got the results.

Scott Benner 4:42
When the when the friends mentioned that he looks smaller. Did you notice anything in his performance in baseball was he slower getting tired not hitting the ball as far as stuff like that?

Jason 4:54
Not particularly in his baseball performance. He he definitely seemed a little more tired, you know, after games, he just he seemed a little puny. But then when they made the comment, and I looked at him, I was like, he does look really pale. Like, it's coloring just was not right. And I really didn't notice, you know just how skinny he was looking. Definitely he was not that he's, he's a pretty happy kid. But he was a little grouchy here. Back in those days as well, once

Scott Benner 5:26
you began to see it, could you put a timeframe on it? How long do you think it had been going on?

Jason 5:31
My estimate is maybe six weeks. But that's just that's just my estimate of it. It could be two or three months, or it could have just been two or three weeks. When

Scott Benner 5:42
you see all this you call a doctor, eventually you go to a hospital, how do you handle it?

Jason 5:47
So we went to his primary care physician, who we've known for many, many years, he gave us the news, and basically said, you know, bad news, good news, bad news. So the good news is, it can be a lot worse. But the bad news is, is you definitely have diabetes, send us on to an endocrinologist who we saw the same day. We were very lucky. And we wit about a 10 minute drive from his office to our new endocrinologists office. That's where it was confirmed that it was diabetes. They did think it was probably type one, they ran all the tests to confirm that. And Scott, we never went to the hospital. It was quiet one day, one day, we were normal. And the next day, we had seen two doctors and a diabetes educator and we're learning how to treat type one diabetes with home that same day.

Scott Benner 6:41
What was his blood sugar that day? You know,

Jason 6:44
it was off the charts. I want to say that's a that I think is a one C was like 14. Wow. They did that. And I think he was on the for hundreds, maybe a blood sugar. Did

Scott Benner 6:57
they start him on insulin right there in the office? Yes. So they inject they injected a Basal insulin? And did they correct his blood sugar as well? Or how did they handle the I'm interested in how they brought his blood sugar down in the office? And then what they told you to do in the first days.

Jason 7:14
Right? So they started us off MBI we actually did the first injection together with the diabetes educator. And then they went through, you know, basil and Bolus and multiple daily injections. I immediately started asking about technology, because I knew there was some available. You know, they were I would say they're pretty conservative in their approach. I know that's probably no surprise, I think a lot of in those are. And they said that that would come you know, later down the road. I think the back then it was your wait, you know, about three to four months before you get a CGM. And then maybe at six months to a year we can start talking pomps I started advocating a lot quicker than that, which I'm talking about a little bit later that day, though, yes, we did a correction dose together. You'll love this his first meal because I immediately thought we're gonna have to change his entire diet. His first meal, literally, in the diabetes educators office was a cheeseburger from water burger, which is his absolute favorite.

Scott Benner 8:25
Well, what what was his level of? I mean, he's 11. Right when this happens, so Right. Is he shocked? Is the like, what's the like, kind of psychological feedback you're getting from him in the moment?

Jason 8:38
I think we all were shocked. I don't think he really knew how to process it. What exactly what was happening? I think he he knew it was big. And that, you know, it was gonna be some changes happening. But yeah, the first few days, I think we were all just in shock. For sure.

Scott Benner 8:58
That's crazy. How do you find me?

Jason 9:00
I think it was through Facebook. I should know the answer to that.

Scott Benner 9:05
But not really.

Jason 9:09
Yeah, I wouldn't say it was Facebook.

Scott Benner 9:13
But were you looking? Are you looking for something? Yes.

Jason 9:16
Okay. Yeah. I mean, I was looking around, I think I'd seen a couple of other, you know, diabetes groups on Facebook. I think I read across you guys. And Scott had never listened to a podcast in my life. As usual, I'm about 1010 years behind the world on some of this stuff. But I remember listening to your show, and just thinking, wow, that made it digestible, to talk about, you know, diabetes. I discovered the show and what to say we were it was definitely a year after diagnosis, I want to say is more like 1617 months.

Scott Benner 9:54
That's not long at all.

Jason 9:58
Yeah, but after it. I have a little jealous when I see newly diagnosed people that found you within the first month. But because we were a little bit I mean, we have a great Endo, I have nothing but praise for our endo and our diabetes educator. But we were still just kind of lost at sea at times. As soon as we started listening to your podcast, things started changing for us rapidly. I'm glad to hear

Scott Benner 10:24
that he was diagnosed during so people whose kids don't play travel sports like it blurs together like Was this the spring season? The summer season or the false?

Jason 10:35
Yeah, I guess typically, it was the spring season. And we kept playing.

Scott Benner 10:39
Yeah, that's what I was going to ask us. You headed into the heat of the year then and kept playing? Oh, yes. Was that more difficult? In the beginning, it

Jason 10:48
was I mean, we're still learning something every single day. But yes, we learned quickly that heat could affect him. Dehydration, took me a while to learn that one. But dehydration could affect him. And of course, again, we were, you know, MDI, at first, we really started pushing for a CGM. And luckily, his diagnosis date was February 9 of 2021. And I think it was March, it was about a month later. I talked our a doe into prescribing a Dexcom. To us. And that, that opened up the world big time.

Scott Benner 11:29
Yeah. Until then, you just, I don't know how to put it exactly. It's the same way yet. It's like when I let my we don't have a fence around our property. And I just said property like I have 20 acres, it's my yard. But we don't have a fence around our backyard. So we sort of my I'm in the middle of two. Obviously, there's a neighbor on my left and neighbor on my right. And the three of us we made a gentleman's agreement a long time ago not to fence in the property. So when you walk outside, you get this very wide open, you know, more open feeling because there's just no sight lines, like knocking down when you look out, you know, I look into my neighbor's backyard, it feels like it's mine. Anyway, every time I let my dog out, I have that feeling. I'm like, I wonder if this is gonna go the way I wanted to. Is he gonna wander off? Am I going to be in my neighbor's backyard? Five minutes go go and remember when we said we wouldn't put up fences? I bet you regret that. Or you know, like I just when Arden was first playing softball with diabetes. I mean, I didn't know what was happening. And you know, you added a CGM and back then I mean, was that the Dexcom? I don't know seven plus, which I know people are like but the seven is just the ultimate know their numbering system was off in the beginning it was like Dexcom seven plus then it went to I don't know I forget G four than G five anyway point is a lot of generations ago. And even that thing was you know, it did its best but it it liked a little bit and I just remember never feeling like I knew what I was knowing what I was doing. And oh yeah, you know, it's just it's a terrible feeling. He didn't know um, it sounds like you're very involved in his blood sugar's and helping him so which is great, but I'm what I'm saying is like you're you shouldering a lot of the concern while he's being active and doing his things. I sleep on cozy Earth sheets. I aware cozy Earth, joggers and sweatshirts, and I dry my bits off after every shower with a cozy Earth waffle towels. And you may be thinking, yeah, sure, Scott. Well, they gave you that stuff because you do ads for them. They gave me some of it. A lot of it. I bought on my own with my money, and the offer code juicebox at checkout, I saved 40% on the sweat pants I'm wearing right now using my offer code. I saved 40% On a second pair of sheets that I bought using the offer code juice box at checkout. This stuff is high quality, incredibly comfortable. It washes well it wears well. It sleeps well. It dries well. Cozy earth.com use the offer code juice box at checkout to save 40%

Jason 14:15
Oh, definitely. I am the two of us. I am the most OCD. And I have always tried to stay on top of things, particularly when he's playing sports but even throughout the day, tried to tighten up the range that we have set for him. And I have been told that I might be a little overly competitive. So it's a it's almost a competition to see how I how low I can get his blood sugar's in a healthy range, of course. But yeah, I keep an eye on it. My wife she does a lot as well. But as far as keeping an eye on blood sugars and using text messaging, which thank you for that suggestion. back and forth throughout school. It's a lifesaver to make sure that he's, you know, watching his numbers himself. I, I kind of take the lead on that. Yeah,

Scott Benner 15:10
that that that one bit me this weekend I gave, I gave a three day talk at a private event this weekend for people of the Orthodox Jewish faith. And a lot of a lot of them don't use technology. In some of them, even if they have a phone. It's just a flip phone, right? And I'm standing in front of like, 400 people, and somebody says, What's your best advice for helping a child? And I was like, text messaging. And then I went, and I was like, Hold on, I'll come up with something different. Give me a second.

Jason 15:44
Put you on the spot. I

Scott Benner 15:46
think I can't just reach into my bag of tricks and say my thing. But anyway, we we kept talking and we thought about other ways to handle it. I mean, honestly, that's, that's my honest first thought, What's the most? I mean, aside from how to deliver insulin, or a CGM, you know, what's the, what's the best technology for managing a child with type one, I think is texting. So yeah,

Jason 16:12
we also, we say recently, it's been about six months now I purchased him an Apple watch, because a lot of times I would text him and his phone would either be in his locker or it'd be in his back pocket. And he just, you know, didn't realize that texted and now we actually have text messages coming through to his Apple Watch. And it's been amazing the difference that's made as far as at least getting a thumbs up in recognition of me texting him.

Scott Benner 16:38
So I think it's nice that you get a thumbs up, I get stop. But at least they

Jason 16:45
are a little older. So I'm sure those days are coming for for me and no. It might be worse than stop. Yeah.

Scott Benner 16:53
At least I know. At least I know. She sees it. Yeah, I mean, I don't know like it's not gonna be fuck off one day.

Jason 17:03
All of those are confirmation. Honestly, I don't care what you say back.

Scott Benner 17:08
That's all I care about. Honestly. You could send a letter a diet. I mean, unless it's like, unless it looks like you're trailing off while you're touching the keys. Then maybe I'm gonna need an actual word. That's amazing. So you got a CGM before a pump?

Jason 17:24
Yes, yes, we we got the CGM. You'll love this. So we love traveling. Big time, travel as much as possible. And we, again diagnosed February 9, our spring break I want to say was we'll just say mid March. So five weeks later, we were I think we received the Dexcom. Two days before we left to go on our trip. And we flew from Texas, to Charleston. And then we road tripped both the Carolinas, Virginia, West Virginia, Kentucky, and then flew back home from Nashville. So to say it was a trial by fire. Learning the CGM. We learned how to use it on the road. Wow. By

Scott Benner 18:10
the way that that trip almost was the John Denver song. I think

Jason 18:15
we may have been seeing a few of his students while we were traveling through the Blue Ridge.

Scott Benner 18:20
I mean, it would seem appropriate. So you're on a plane, and then in a rental vehicle, even like not even your car, right and figuring out well, at least you're in close quarters of probably. I mean, I don't know, did it make it easier? Or I guess the other

Jason 18:34
good point it it really. It definitely did not hurt things so that we were all together. We learned very quickly. I think it was our first night in Charleston. We had probably third day with the actual Dexcom G six. We had, I believe it was pizza for dinner, because clearly we're on a health kick with some of our diet choices here. And then we had ice cream for dessert. And I want to say we had the ice cream around seven to 8pm. That was a long night.

Scott Benner 19:06
Like 330 in the morning.

Jason 19:10
High long after high bar testing for keto. It was yes, we learned something very valuable that day. If you're going to eat that stuff, maybe lunchtime is a better choice.

Scott Benner 19:22
Do you think Arden shouldn't have changed her CGM for the first time from G six to G seven by herself last night at midnight? Because that's what I was telling her the whole evening. You could just do it now. You could just do it now. You know, okay,

Jason 19:37
what she's saying it's only a 30 minute warm up. That's gonna make it all better.

Scott Benner 19:40
How about I'm getting a FaceTime at like, one o'clock in the morning. Am I doing this right? showing me the sensor on FaceTime. I'm like what is happening? Exactly. And she's like, is this like, just push it down like this and then push them I'm like, Yeah, I can think was I'm never going to sleep.

Jason 20:03
Yeah, we, we have started doing Dexcom sensor changes. We used to do them in the evenings and we switched to first thing in the mornings. I like having the entire day. I mean, priority and Olympic for school, of course, I like having the entire day to see how it's going to function. Because just like you've said many times, you know, the first few hours can be a little wonky, which I think that might be the first time I've ever used the term walkie in my life. But

Scott Benner 20:32
I'm glad I can add to your you're expanding my vocabulary choices are just drifting. Where do you see all the Yiddish? I learned my thing this weekend? You're gonna get you're gonna get mad later on the podcast. And I was able to like check on some of my pronunciations. Anyway, here's as good as anywhere else. Yes. And so the we're doing meals, right. So one of the things we did this weekend, which was very interesting was they would bring us meals up and the food was just very different stuff I had never seen before in a lot of cases. And they wanted us, me and the other person who were presenting over the weekend, like just guessed these carbs, like tell us what you think. So I get this bowl, it has beans in it, and then there's a thing on top of it. I don't even know how to describe it. And I put my fork in it and held it up. And I'm in front of a room of 200 people eating their meal. I'm like, What's this? And I hear Kiska Kiska. I'm like it's a Kiska? Yes. And then somebody comes over they say it's flour. It's pressed together. There's oil in it, they explain it. And I'm like, Okay, I put it down. And then it hits me. And I turn to the BMC. And I go, Well, if that's a Kiska, then where does the term eating my kitchen because outcome from so the room explodes and laughter because I don't really know what I'm saying. You know what I mean? Like, I just have these couple of Yiddish terms. I know. I don't really know them. Anyway, after everyone stopped. It was very interesting about what a kiss case. And I guess the carbs pretty correctly. So I was really, really thrilled with myself. I'm sorry, I got myself off track. Well, I had a question about the about the trip. You wouldn't have known about being sedentary and higher blood sugars without the CGM. That's right. You figure that out in the car. I imagine. I don't

Jason 22:16
know if we even figured it out that quickly. Just how activity. I mean, again, we were six weeks post diagnosis. So we really didn't at that point know about steel versus exercising or even just walking about even exercising just being active versus being still and how much that can affect diabetes. Yeah, that that came later on as well.

Scott Benner 22:39
Well, the reason it made me like it kind of popped in my head was, I mean, let's say my son grew up playing baseball in New Jersey. And it was incredibly competitive, and year round. And I'm imagining, it's worse than Texas. So like, I bet your kids moving constantly, almost. And then all of a sudden, you're sitting still, that's what that's what made it pop. For me.

Jason 23:03
I think we learned more on that. We are also big Disney fans, and try to go to the parks on a pretty regular basis. It's kind of hard, hard to go super regular when you live in Texas. Just all the walking and those parks, I think that's where the lightbulb kind of started going off for me is you know, while it's such a difference between dosing when I know he's going to be you know, inside on a rainy day playing video games, or watching movies versus, you know, walking 10 miles in a day, riding all the rides.

Scott Benner 23:36
Yeah, Disney is such an interesting example of, of craziness. Because all the walking, you know, driving your blood sugar down, and then you could experience adrenaline bursts, and then go and then bursts and then gone. So these two things, they could almost counterbalance each other and then whatever happens last is where you end up.

Jason 23:58
For sure and adrenaline for him. He is a pitcher. So a lot of the baseball games he's playing and pitching and I noticed very quickly that when he was pitching, which he loves to pitch is a journalist would get going and he would just inevitably start skyrocketing. So I started dosing before games where I knew he was gonna pitch and then games where he was just playing the field. He might go up some but he wasn't gonna go up as high because his adrenaline button is high.

Scott Benner 24:30
Are you seeing the the adrenaline that exists in a game even just playing the field but it doesn't exist at practice? Have you seen that phenomenon? My daughter Arden has been wearing an omni pod since she was four years old, and she is now 19 That is every day wearing an omni pod for the last 15 years. I think what we love most about Omni pod is that it doesn't have any tubing. But I don't know The thing you love most about it, you don't have to take it off to swim or bave. You can leave it on for activity and exercise. It's small. I don't eat. I mean, it's so easy to put on, right to fill it and to put it on. It's just it takes us no time at all. Yeah, I guess it's hard to figure out what my favorite thing about Omni pod is. I guess I'll just say that my daughter loves it. It's easy, and it's worked for her. For so many years. It's just such a friend at all this Omni pod.com Ford slash juice box, you can check your coverage there for your insurance. Or take a test drive right? Would you like a free trial of the Omni pod? You can do that there as well, then you can just get started. Omni pod.com forward slash juicebox. Now you have a decision to make. Do you want the Omni pod dash, which is an insulin pump? Where you make all the decisions? Or do you want the Omni pod five. Now the iPod five is the first and only tubeless automated insulin delivery system to integrate with the Dexcom G six. And it's available for people with type one diabetes ages two years and older. It features smarter, just technology. And it's going to help you to protect against highs and lows both day and night. That's an algorithm based system making decisions about insulin given it and taking it away. It's pretty damn cool. Omni pod.com forward slash juicebox links in the show notes links at juicebox podcast.com. When you use those links, you're supporting the production of the podcast and helping to keep it free and plentiful.

Jason 26:29
Definitely, yes, yeah, practice. We don't really worry about practice and dosing. It's when those competitive juices get going and you're about to face your opponent. That's when he normally starts going high. Now,

Scott Benner 26:41
the good news there is if he still pitches and isn't a starter, at least from the stands, you'll know when he's getting ready to go in.

Jason 26:47
Right?

Scott Benner 26:50
You'll hear a beep turn to your wife, you go hey, I know is about the pitch. That's right. Do you know it my son's freshman year of college. It was very much at the end of his the first season. And they traveled out of state pretty far actually to play a conference rival. And at that point, they were basically like neck and neck to win the division. And game one comes my son's a freshman. They did not play freshmen regularly. I think he had a handful of at bats. And I think through a few pitches and a couple of games right. And like we did games, they didn't trust him or even didn't even know him. So my wife and I we drive it's like a four hour drive for us to this place. We spend the night we get up we come to the game. We're just there to support them. Honestly, don't expect to see them play out the fourth or fifth inning. My wife who knows not a ton about baseball leans over to me and she says I hope we're getting rid of this starter. He's he's falling apart. And I was like, Yeah, well, if my wife sees it, then I'm assuming we've all seen it. And so like I'm like, Yeah, you're right. And not that she's silly. She just doesn't love baseball the same way. And I look way down left field, the bullpen is just so far away. I kind of can't even see I'm like, Well, we have somebody going, you know, like few minutes later that somebody was cold coming running up the left. And I'm like, wait, what's going on, like my son who showed up at college to play centerfield and maybe pitched in high school, you know, 610 times and travel every once in a while but hasn't like, it still does has a really good arm. And the next thing I know in like a tie game, he's walking out in the field. And I get your blood sugar's were. My blood sugars are going up is exactly

Jason 28:40
the Dexcom. While you're testing it out, you can see.

Scott Benner 28:44
So I'm usually I'm very pragmatic. So a bunch of parents are looking at me and they're like, are you nervous? I'm like, No, and they're like, why not? I'm like, I wouldn't have put him in there. This is a mistake. Neither I nor he is responsible for this horrible coaching error. But he actually got through three innings, he didn't give up a run in three innings. So Oh, that's awesome. It was pretty cool.

Jason 29:08
I received the same question at a junior high baseball game just about a couple of months ago. And I had the same answer that I almost felt a little bad for giving the answer. I didn't want to come off as arrogant or anything but a couple of fathers asked me he's like, are you nervous? Know what's going on? It's like, No, I'm not he's either gonna perform or he's not. There's literally nothing I could do right now. Except watch him and hope that he performs well. Jason. That's it. I'm

Scott Benner 29:34
actually heartwarming by that response. Because I mean, to say that my kids were around a lot of competitiveness as young people is an understatement. And I am fairly competitive person. As a matter of fact, we could easily like shift this conversation to how I love the podcast is popular and how hard how hard I work at keeping it that way. I've always Like, since I was little, like, since my kids were little excuse me, I would pull Cole aside before a game in when he was little little, and I'd get down on his level and I'd give him a hug. And I'd say, I love you. Just do your best. Doesn't matter if you guys win or lose. You know, like, I've always given him that perspective as a young person growing up, and then that kind of just morphed into I love you have a good game, like that kind of stuff. But he knew going in there. Baseball is to get better at baseball. It's like, like, it's not about winning today. I always the thing I always think is, who won the World Series Two years ago? Who won the Super Bowl five years ago? You don't know? Right? You know, you have no idea because it's as corny as it sounds like it's the journey, not the destination kind of stuff. And, um, it's a little kid, like, what are you going to do send them out there thinking the weight of the world rides on whether or not they do something that's fairly impossible. You know. And so, the only time when he was recruiting for college, the first big recruiting thing he went to, we were driving to it, and we had this like, kind of long conversation, which I'm sure he hated. But you know, Screw him, I made a man in charge. And I said, your whole life I've been telling you like, just to get better for later. But this is later. I'm like, This is it. Like, you got to go perform now. Like, go do it. Go go do your thing right now. Leave it all out there, whatever, coaching father euphemism that you can have like this, is it like, you don't impress these people? It's done. It's over. So go give them everything you have. You know, that's awesome. Yeah. And I think what it did was it just kept a couple things that kept his sensibility about what he was doing in check. And at the same, like, you know what I mean, like, he didn't walk around thinking, I'm doing this very important thing. He didn't have the sense of like, baseballs more than it really is. It's something he loved to do that he was good at. And he wanted to keep doing it. So I mean, that's the perspective I tried to give him. If I tell that story, nine out of 10 times the other people, fathers, mothers, actually, ladies, sometimes the mothers more than the fathers. No one under mostly, no one understands that it's just, you know,

Jason 32:26
I'm not about please write plagiarism. And I may be stealing what you said there. And using that in the future. Because I love it. That's awesome.

Scott Benner 32:34
And it helped them in college too. Because even when he got to college, and then they're like, whoa, you know, freshmen aren't gonna play that much. And then you don't even realize that they'll still be politics in college. I mean, I don't know. In hindsight, why the hell I didn't realize that, but it was worse. It was the worst I'd ever experienced and Little League was terrible. And high school was a mess, and everybody just fighting for their kids and arguing and jockeying for positions. I watched a woman one time, I've never told the story here. I think my kids, the kids were 11. And they were now in getting ready. So they were basically setting the team to try to get to the Little League World Series the following year. And my son had always played the outfield, and just was very adept at it and came naturally to him a strong arm that kind of stuff could really track a ball. But the second baseman on the team was terrible. And so the coach came to me one day before an all star practice and said we're going to move cold a second and and see how that goes. And I'm like, okay, and I think they were just trying to bring the athletic people into onto the field into the infield a little more. And, and he did very well. And that was it. After the game it was announced colts gonna be playing second base, blah, blah, blah. And I'm walking off the field with him, telling them how proud I am of him asking him what he thinks about the shift and positions. And then we hear it from I am not lying to you. 80 yards away under a tree. A woman screaming her head off at the coach in his face pointing in his chest screaming at him. And we showed up the next day for practice that my son was not playing second base anymore. Wow. I watched the year before a group of parents call a meeting and fire the coach. As I stood in the corner going, What in the fuck is happening? Exactly? What is wrong with all of you? How many mental illnesses are in this room? A lovely man who had been coaching those kids since he was six since they were six. And they're like you're out. Like out what he comes Every practice, what do we argue about? My wife will tell you to this day my wife works in a corporate situation. She said it was the most vicious collection of people in a meeting she's ever seen in her life. She's in the corporate world. That's awesome. I swear to God, my wife works in pharma. And she's like, this is the most vicious thing I've ever seen in my entire life.

Jason 35:21
That's funny. Conforming myself, do you really? Yeah. Yeah.

Scott Benner 35:25
My Well, Larry, my wife does drug safety.

Jason 35:27
Okay, yeah. I mean, immunizations. So I'll do are not all of them. But many of the routine pediatric immunizations I

Scott Benner 35:36
represent. Oh, that's really cool. How did you end up in that space? Totally fell into it.

Jason 35:43
I was working at Xerox of all places, shortly after I college. And I had a person that I've still have never met to this day, reached out to me, Headhunter and asked about my water interview with a pharmaceutical company. And it's the best decision I've ever made, never looked back.

Scott Benner 35:59
My wife wanted to be a doctor and couldn't afford to apply to medical school. So she used her biology degree to to get Kelly Services job, it was actually attempt with a temp job. Okay, so Kelly does regular services. They also do Scientific Services. I don't know if they do anymore. This is a very, I'm very old. This is a very long time ago.

Jason 36:18
I think we're the same age are very close. Yeah. So

Scott Benner 36:21
then your old two and

Jason 36:26
50 in July? Yeah, I've gotten it

Scott Benner 36:28
now. I'm gonna be 52 in July. So I've got a little bit. Okay. But But anyway, she, you know, took that job and was good at it and enjoyed it. It's odd, like, I would almost describe what she does now, as a job they would give an attorney. It's a lot of reading laws and making sure people are compliant doing what they're supposed to do. So all the all the stuff that's made for the patients like that stuff that my wife oversees that kind of thing. Okay, yeah. So, but anyway, it's not the point. Anyway, that lady screaming on that field was the maybe first in a long line of crazy people who somehow thought that no matter what age this was, their kid, I mean, it's the old joke, right? They all thought their kids were gonna go play for the Yankees. Right? You know, and, I mean, I mean, good for them for believing in their children and everything and whatnot. But I mean, I was watching them play, and I was like, Oh, your kid doesn't run the straight line. I don't think this is gonna work out, you know, I've ever seen anyone run before. Doesn't look like that, you know. But I'm glad the kid loves baseball and all, you know, and of that team. My son was a runt on that team, really at that he was smaller. Three kids that played on that baseball team eventually played in college, one of them never gotten to a game. The other one gave up a jack on ESPN that went so far, he was not in the school, six days later. Never saw ball goes so far, so fast, or a head dropped down so heavy. And then literally not in school the next week, like they must have pulled him aside and been like, we made a mistake. And then my son played for four years. And my point isn't about him. My point is that if you would have went back to those 12 year old kids, and said, you know, here, I'm gonna give you $50,000 Go ahead and bet on four of them that will make it to college. You wouldn't have picked my kid never once. So my point is, is that acting like you know, what's gonna happen is a fairly large mistake. Right? Yeah. Kids a monster. Jason and then right on, you know, they mean, you won the genetic lottery. Because I'll tell you what, big and a little like, can swing a bat. Someone's gonna give it a shot. So Right. Yeah. How about your son is a huge is he little is he where's he playing on the

Jason 38:58
field? He plays, catch. They've had them all over the place, he normally would play in a third base or in the outfield, because he can throw pretty well and could get the ball from the outfield to first base and all that junior high. He was in seventh grade this year. And I mean, they had him. I think he almost played every position at one point he didn't catch but he played second base. He played short. He played left field centerfield right field first base. I mean, my wife and I were cracking up. Because we never knew if he wasn't pitching, it was flip a coin on where they're going to put him this particular game. I think he he prefers third base, or the outfield? Yeah. So or he really prefers pitching. But of course, can't pitch every game.

Scott Benner 39:46
And by the way, don't just write Yeah, you're gonna come along a guy at some point there's going to be a coach who you have to be there's two things I know for sure about children's sports. Okay, eventually You will play for a person who does not care about the health of your child. And it is up to you to have the balls to stand up to that. And and the second thing I guess I know for sure is, what the hell was I gonna say, Oh, my God is the thing that I say constantly about baseball. And now it just fell right out of my head. I talked myself right out of my thought, Jason, this is embarrassing. That's 50 to say, Oh, my God, you know what they say? You know,

Jason 40:30
he's got I don't have this problem at 49.

Scott Benner 40:36
I do it all the time. Don't worry. It'll pop up in my head, like 10 minutes from now. I'll be like that other thing about baseball? That's right. Oh, I'm sorry. You have to know yourself. If you look around a travel team. And you can't tell who the check is. You're the check. So some kids are there to play, and some kids are there. So the coaches can make money. But you got to know if you're the check. That's very, very important point. Yeah, that's a good point. That means you can't play by the way, just on that team. If you're the check, you're not gonna play. Right. So anyway, but that's a sad statement. And a million 1,000,000%. But it was truth. Yeah. Oh, it's 100%. True. You don't know who the check is? It's you. Anyway, okay. So how do you think Noah is dealing with all this?

Jason 41:35
I think he has been a champ. From the get go. I mean, I've just been amazed at how he has stepped up and just kind of take things in stride. I think the email I sent you a while back, just thanking you. I mentioned that, you know, my wife and I went through mourning that we've we went through all the stages of grief, because it was just such a shock. And such a change, though, he just kind of took them all at random. I'm not saying it was perfect, you know, every single day. And he did have a few moments here and there of, you know, some tears and not wanting to be a type one diabetic. For the most part, he took it much better than we did initially. And I've just been amazed at how he's doing and how he's learning more and more. I'm kind of walking the line right now, trying to let him be a kid as much as possible, but also realizing, you know, he's a teenager, and he's got to start, you know, taking a little bit of ownership, as the next few years go by, and kind of learn to make adjustments on his own. So I've been kind of relinquishing a little bit of control to him. And so far, he's he's doing a pretty good job

Scott Benner 42:58
with it. Good for him. That's excellent. How are you doing with letting go of it? As you're doing this?

Jason 43:03
So far? Pretty good. Of course, that's me evaluating myself.

Scott Benner 43:11
Jason, are you? Are you the check in you don't know it.

Jason 43:15
Might be. So I think so far pretty good. He has some days, they're better than others. And that's just the way it's going to be. But yeah, it's almost a little bit of a weight off my shoulders all the days that he does. I mean, here lately, he's actually started proactively texting me. When he gets an alarm, and he's good, like high or he sees that he's going low. Just saying got it, or overdosed. And that definitely makes me feel great. Saying that.

Scott Benner 43:50
I will tell the truth and say that art in leaving for college has been good for me.

Jason 44:00
And has been good for you. Yeah,

Scott Benner 44:02
I don't mean. I don't mean because I don't know. Maybe I don't know exactly how it's been good so far. But, I mean, it's on her now. Like when she's gone. It's on her. And so there are times that whether I'm cognizant of it or not, I'm not thinking about her diabetes at all.

Jason 44:22
Right. And it's, it's forced you to Yeah, let go a little bit. Yeah. Yeah.

Scott Benner 44:29
I don't even know if it's letting go. It's it was taken from me. Like there's nothing I can do about it. You know, I mean, she was leaving, and I was like, I can't live here on the floor in the hallway. So I guess I gotta go. And not that I wanted to, but I mean, it's, I don't know. It's just it's different now, but I can tell you this. Every time I see her while she's gone, or every time she comes home, her first and only desire and wishes. Hey, could you do does take care of my blood sugar tonight. So first thing she says like, I just want to sleep overnight.

Jason 45:06
Wow, okay.

Scott Benner 45:06
It reminds me a little bit of this. I was listening to something, by the way, don't take this as details. I although isn't even going to take anything after details after I couldn't remember the cheque analogy five minutes ago, but people are gonna be like, Why am I listening to this? He's been saying the thing his whole life and he doesn't know what it is. I saw this conversation people were talking about that having a child with needs. A chronically ill child can like, metabolically age you up, like 10 years, or something like that as a parent. And so there's part of you that's, that that's tempted to say, well, you know, she's off to college now. So hopefully, that'll be good for me. But then I don't know how the next thought in your head isn't. But now this all just shifted on to her. Like, so if it's 10 years for the parent of what's the impact on the person? Right, you know, and then you get into that space in your head where you're like, Okay, well, I'll trade the last 10 years of my life, so she doesn't have to do this sooner. Like, and that's how it feels to me. I mean, I didn't think life was gonna be fair, Jason, but I didn't think but I would have to make a Cognizant decision to give away the end of my life. I don't smoke. So I guess maybe that'll maybe helped me a little bit on the other side. But it's in my head, because I brought it up this weekend at the thing that a lot of good research says that children with diabetes benefit significantly from parental assistance into their mid 20s. So, you know, anyway, so you're handing off a thing that you're not really giving away. But yet he has to feel like it's his without being overwhelmed. And without, you know, quietly ignoring it, not telling you, if there's just there's a lot of balls up in the air on this one. I

Jason 47:00
guess there are Yeah, it is a juggling act, to say the least. One thing that I've been struggling with a little bit, as far as dosing him, I've wanted to get your input on. While hard he was in school and at home is consistently after lunch. He's experiencing highs, and I'm saying, we Pre-Bolus You know, 15 minutes before he eats, and then it'll eat and inevitably he starts going up to 151 80. I mean, even to the two hundreds, many times. Yeah. So I'm trying to figure out what we should start adding more insulin to help bring it out to further complicate the issue. He has PE after lunch. Some days, it is two hours after lunch. Some days. It is one hour after lunch. It's staggered. I

Scott Benner 47:53
want I once told a principal, I said you know you and I aren't married. Why are you torturing me? Exactly. I was like, there's already a lady handling that. You don't need to do it. So why does she eat and go right outside to recess? Could she not go to recess before? Or how about an hour later? Or how about this? Why is Why is lunch? Right before? Jim? What are you doing today?

Jason 48:20
Luckily, the lunchtime is consistent. Oh, today the week? That's nice. Oh, he is staggered.

Scott Benner 48:26
How about for years? Arden had two different lunches every week. There was one that was an hour sooner than the Oh good. Gosh. Cal Kelly's got this covered. You don't need to try to kill me too. There are plenty of good women on it. You don't you're like What are you doing to me? So okay, so he's going into is he eating the food at school? Or is he bringing food?

Jason 48:54
bringing food except one day a week? They provide food. So typically, it's fast food Chick fil A or what? A burger, something super healthy like that. Well, he brings that or they provide that. They provide that really at a school. So yeah, well, I say they provide that we purchased that. Let me clarify. Yes, we purchase one meal a week for him and that he takes his own lunch and he's really consistent with the lunches he takes each day. Typically it's a turkey sandwich. While I'm at a couple of sides. Jason

Scott Benner 49:26
Your Texas freedom stands aside, I was eating tater tots that tasted like cotton balls and pizza that tastes like cardboard when I was in high school. So I

Jason 49:35
remember the pizza very well. The sad thing is Scott we got excited about pizza. Oh my god. It's the best day of my life.

Greg Taylor, huge sheet pan of pizza. You would have thought Yeah, I thought it was Christmas. Yeah,

Scott Benner 49:49
slightly. I always thought of his catch up with oregano on cardboard with cheese that didn't melt. How do you make cheese that doesn't melt when it's brought the high temperatures? I'll tell you how it's Styrofoam. That's how it's why I can't lose weight my 50s I'm pretty sure that I metabolically right there with you. So he, I'm sorry, let's start off he is Pre-Bolus thing for the lunch? Yes,

Jason 50:15
yeah, he's Pre-Bolus thing. And maybe we need to Pre-Bolus a little earlier.

Scott Benner 50:19
How long? How long has it been? It's typically

Jason 50:22
about 15 minutes before he so he'll Pre-Bolus at 1130. And then he starts lunch at like, 45.

Scott Benner 50:28
Is he rising and staying high and needs more insulin to come down? Or is he spiking and dropping on his own?

Jason 50:35
No, typically, he is rising and staying high. But on the days where he has PE sooner, a lot of times, that will break him down. With either no additional insulin or edible added insulin. The days where p is longer after lunch. Typically, he has to do a pretty significant correction. And then many times we correct a little too much he goes to PE and then all of a sudden he's fighting the load. Yeah. So it's, it's been interesting. I always have them have Skittles in his pocket for PE just so he's prepared, you know? Yeah,

Scott Benner 51:12
sure. He's thrilled with that. But I take your point, I mean, in my mind, maybe you have to treat it like two different scenarios. Maybe the day when there's no P, you, the simple thing to do would be to first try five more minutes of of a Pre-Bolus. If there's no sign of him getting low right now with the 15 minutes. The other thought is to take the correction that you're using after the meal and move like two thirds of it into the Bolus. Does that make sense? Okay, so your Pre-Bolus in the food, and in some odd way Pre-Bolus In the spike. That makes sense.

Jason 51:50
So on that scenario, I assume you're meeting other days where Pe is significantly later, after lunch? Yes.

Scott Benner 51:57
When we're not when we're not then diving right into physical education after that. And physical education, where they let them throw balls at each other in the gym or whatever, by the way, right? Who ever outlawed dodgeball? You ruined a country. I just say that.

Jason 52:15
By the way, there is a sequel coming to that movie. I just read that the other day. Is

Scott Benner 52:19
there really? Is it was it duck dodge dip. Dodge?

Jason 52:27
Was the five DS

Scott Benner 52:30
isn't a Rip Torn. Is that right?

Jason 52:33
Yeah, he he's passed. But apparently the rest of the original cast are coming back. So yeah. That's one of those movies. If it's on and we're channel surfing, and we come across that one. It's just immediate, that we're watching it no matter how many times we've seen it. It's so funny to us.

Scott Benner 52:50
You know how many people tell me I sound like Vince Vaughn.

Jason 52:55
I mean, I can hear that a little bit.

Scott Benner 52:57
I think it's my cadence, not my voice. I think that's what they hear. And I always say that, but they're like, No, you sound like Vince Vaughn. I was in a subway one time. I'm sorry. We'll get back to your balls. I was in a subway one time. And I heard a little kid, like a four year old kid say that man sounds like Santa Claus. Because Vince Vaughn was in a movie where he played Santa Claus one time. That kid was really confused when I walked out of that Subway.

Jason 53:27
What happened to Santa?

Scott Benner 53:28
He looks shorter. Than I explained to that four year old, they just hire all short actors. So everybody looks tall. It's not me. Diversity, I'll tell the women who act with Tom Cruise, right. So so that's my thought for the non PE days either. Start with just trying a slightly longer Pre-Bolus. As long as like I said, you don't feel like he's in, you know, trouble, like he's gonna go low. Or you move some of the correction into the Bolus. So you're being more aggressive with the food, because there's something happening. And you can kind of take the stance of I don't care what it is. It's gonna need more insulin later anyway. Why don't I just give it the insulin. Now, if that rise you're seeing is not in the first 45 minutes of eating, then maybe an extended Bolus over even just an hour might be the way to go with that extra. So just kind of layering on top, an extra blanket of insulin to keep that rise from happening, but not so much that he'll get low afterwards.

Jason 54:33
So this was the world Omnipod five now, I pretty much kept it in and I know, you know, I could go into manual mode, but I've kept it in automated mode, I believe since we've had it. So I have not done that extended Bolus since we left on the pod dash.

Scott Benner 54:48
So then in that scenario, I would either put it up front which and then let the algorithm manage it backwards or make a secondary Bolus pry err to the spike. Okay, and that you would do with carbs. So do you think this is a fat rise? Or do you just think it's the it's not we're not covered by the right amount of insulin.

Jason 55:11
I think it's both on the day that he has the purchase lunch, which is always fast food, there's definitely a fat rise. And we have actually been more aggressive on our Pre-Bolus, I've had a bad like an extra unit or two on top of the carbs that he's, you know, counting up. And then on the days where he actually packs a lunch, I think it's, I really think we might start Pre-Bolus In more like 20 minutes before or even 25 minutes, I've noticed that he will. Typically his insulin will kick in about an hour and 15 minutes to an hour and a half after. That's when I will see it actually start impacting the food. So I guess what I'm struggling with is if you Pre-Bolus and say it's five units that you chose for lunch, and 45 minutes later, you're already over 200, it's still going up, but you'd have two, two and a half, three units of iob left on I guess I'm struggling with when did we go ahead and start adding more and more insulin?

Scott Benner 56:21
I mean, if it's not going to come back down on its own or without the algorithm pushing it, then my answer is before. I don't think the insulin on board. nothing inherently Juicebox Podcast should be considered by smoke or otherwise. And I don't think I don't think the insulin on board matters. If this Bolus that you've made is never going to bring down this high blood sugar. To me that's a simple, like glycemic load or fat impact, where you're you maybe you're counting the carbs, but it's the food needs. You know, not every food is created equal. So maybe the food needs more than its carb count indicates what I guess another

Jason 57:00
way of saying it would be if we had bolused correctly, it wouldn't have gone this high in the first place, either correctly with the right amount or Pre-Bolus longer or a combination of those two things you just eat, just go do it the right way. It shouldn't go that high period. Yes, that correct? Okay, listen,

Scott Benner 57:17
you just agreed with what I was going to say. So I don't know if it's correct. But I agree with you know, that's example might need my OLED display. It feels what it felt like as you've listened to the podcast when you just said that. Oh, I've been listening. That is exactly how I would think about it. Yes. Okay.

Jason 57:36
I just I need to get a little more aggressive with it. Yeah.

Scott Benner 57:39
And I'll tell you about the PE thing. I mean, tell me how high the spike is again.

Jason 57:45
It varies. Just yesterday, he went over 200, which I do not like that at all. It's so funny. When we were in high school, it was 300 was the point where I started getting very antsy and not happy. And this is we got the Dexcom and a pop especially. We lowered that. I don't like anything over 200. And really, I don't like anything over 160 these days. I'm really trying to tighten up his range. Look at his numbers right now. Yesterday. Yeah. Lunchtime. He went to about the 208. And then we goes for it. He plunged and went down to about 60. Yeah, then correct to that. And the rest of the day, it was actually pretty good. Well,

Scott Benner 58:28
maybe on P days, and just do a little more. Like try to keep the 200 to 180 and let the algorithm manage it down. If that's happening in a quick enough time for you. I mean, the goal, in my mind is that we don't want Skittles in his pocket. Right? Seriously, like we don't want him to have to eat to stop a low, and we don't want his PE to get interrupted. So do I want his blood sugar to be? I mean, listen, this weekend, someone said to me, what do you consider a high blood sugar? And I said, I said I consider 160 A spike after a meal I consider 180 high and a voice goes What do you consider 200? I said an unmitigated disaster like I'm not judging your blood sugar's is what I went on to say, though, I just said this is the scoring system I use in my head to keep things where they are. Right there. My action points, really more than anything. I don't even care about the numbers, their action points. 160 You know, all right, not a great Bolus, but it comes back and doesn't get low. Good job. 180 your high. I mean, that's just not going to magically come down on its own 200 we could end up here for three hours if we don't act correctly. And so those are the reasons why I acted those numbers in my mind. Me if he was my kid, I wouldn't want him to have to eat or drink during I'd want him to just be able to go play. And so if you can walk a line between taking a rise and then not getting low afterwards into P, I think that's terrific. But in any situation where you're bolusing, again, that insulin belongs in the initial Bolus. And maybe not all of it. Keep in mind, because the amount that you may need to stop the 200 is likely less because delivered timely than the amount you would need to drop the 200. So those numbers aren't the same. Okay, that makes sense. Yeah.

Jason 1:00:30
Okay. Yeah. I changed our range. I know, I think the standard range is what 70 to 180 that I produced Rs. 272 160. Based off of this thing to you and Ginny, talking about if you change your expectations, a lot of times you'll see different results. And sure enough, man, it's been fantastic. I'm, I'm looking right now. For the last 90 days we've been, I don't know if this is actually right. Sounds too good. We've been 98% in range. That's between 70 and 160. Yeah, between 70 and 160. What's that? Put

Scott Benner 1:01:07
your standard deviation at?

Jason 1:01:09
It double check this, that does not sound right. It's been pretty good. Like,

Scott Benner 1:01:14
I don't want to take credit for something that's not happening.

Jason 1:01:16
I'll make sure I'm being truthful.

Scott Benner 1:01:18
I'm going to connect on the wrong button. Oh, by the way, speaking about being truthful, while you're listening, I interviewed a lady last week who said something. And when she got done, I thanked her. I was like you just made the best episode of this podcast I've I can think of although the lady who said her bot exploded was she was pretty giving with the truth. But if you haven't heard that, when it's called butthole, adjacent, and you really should hear it. But

Jason 1:01:47
yeah, so there is no way that that's right.

Scott Benner 1:01:51
Why do you feel like that can't be right. Because you've seen high blood sugars in that timeframe?

Jason 1:01:57
Yes. So this I mean, right now I'm looking at says from February 2 to May 2 90%. In range, and oh, I'm sorry. Yeah, no wonder. Reading is Fundamental. Scott 72 times in range over that 90 day period. Best day was a 90%.

Scott Benner 1:02:21
Lot More. But so you're about 72% range over a month. Right.

Jason 1:02:28
Let's see here. 70. Okay, I finally have the great information. My apologies. So over 90 days, 78% Range 4%? Well, 3%, low 1%. Very low. And then 16%, high. 2%. Very high. And again, this is what the target range of 70 to 160. Yeah. And standard deviation over 90 days is 41. Over 30 days. 43. So we're hanging out around 40. standard deviations, basically, I'm

Scott Benner 1:02:58
not going to insult your standard deviation, but that's the number you should be working on. That'll help the other numbers. Okay, yeah, lower, better standard deviation. Great. was I gonna say there? I mean, listen, I sent our son off to college. And, you know, I mean, if you listen to the podcast long enough, like you'll hear, like, you know, sometimes I go to speak at something and they say, What do you want to call this talk, and I'm, I Call Bull with insulin. And they go, you call every one of your talks, but then something like, I don't want to come up with a name for the talk, just call that. And then they're like, well, but it needs to say something underneath. And I said, Well, we want to get people in the room so we can get the information to them. Scott's daughter's agency has been between five two and six, two for over eight years with no diet restrictions that will get people in the room. And because what we're and it's true, and, you know, it's at the crux of what I talked about. So I'm in that room today. And somebody says, you know, is that really true? And I said, Oh, it's absolutely true, I said, but she's gone now for her longest stint at college like Arden is currently away for the longest she's ever been away from home. It'll be four months in a couple of days. And she's not going to be home for another month, so aren't going to be gone for five months straight because of the way their system setups quarterly. So she basically did two quarters without coming home. Okay, hurry once these up. It's probably going to be 6465. And I don't care. Because the food they are serving are first of all is I mean, it looks good. When you when you walk in the cafeteria and they're selling you the school you're like this is lovely and nice and let she's like it's all garbage that she's like it's processed. It's fried. It's the same crap over and over again. And she's like, I'm telling you it is incredibly difficult to Bolus for. Like I'm seeing her eat three meals a day in this cafeteria. She's making three what I would call large Bolus is a day like Bolus is that I would think of is more for like, you know, five guys what a burger, that kind of stuff right and you Instead, this is her regular meal. And she's like, I'm not overeating. She's like, this is just the amount of food I insulin I need to get through this food. So when a regular day when Arden eats in the cafeteria three times, she has, in general, a Bolus from 10 to 17 units of insulin, like every meal, and if she happens to get like hungry at the end of the night, or something like that, she can't even get a snack without having to Bolus eight or nine units. Like it's just, it's terrible. So to me, she's not making herself low. She kept her a once the, on the high end of what the range we shoot for. And she's managing it on her own. I think that's brilliant. And she'll come home. And you know, we've taken steps already, I will say that, for people sending your kids off to college, one of the things, I eventually had Arden, and I'll talk on the podcast about how school went. But we did set up some accommodations for in the beginning, that very simple understanding for the school for what she has. And so when it was time to look for housing for next year, art is like some of these dorms have kitchens in them a refrigerator and a stove. And I want that, because I can't keep eating like this. And I'm like, okay, she's like, it's just it makes the diabetes just way harder than it needs to be. And I'm like, right, so she's like, so we, I guess petitioned the school to get her into one of those arrangements. And they were like, yeah, absolutely no problem. And Arjuna said, but I want my roommates to stay with me. Like this, we have met these three girls, and they understand my diabetes. And we get along. And you know, if I get low, like, somebody helps me and like, you know, like that kind of stuff. I don't want to lose them. So it took a little doing, but we got the school to designate those three kids as medically necessary. Good for y'all. Yeah, and moved all four of them into one of these, like larger apartment type things where art is like, I am going to start cooking for myself, because I don't even I don't want to be doing this the way I'm doing it right now. So I'm expecting art and SEO and C to drop by a half a point next time she goes back to college. Yeah,

Jason 1:07:09
so two things on that, first of all, thank you for sharing that her agency might be a little bit higher. And you're okay with that, though us as well. We started listening to podcast, I think he was eight one. Then three months, he went down to seven, three. Then he went to six, four. And then his last visit, which was about four to five months ago was six, six. So right in the mid 60s, that's terrific, by the way. Good for you. Well, thank you. Yeah. But again, I'm a little competitive. So I'm trying to get it down lower. He actually has an appointment tomorrow, be the first time in five months, as endocrinologist was out on maternity leave. So it'd be interesting. I'm fully expecting mid 60s again. I'm hopeful maybe it'll be 6364. But I don't I don't know if it's super realistic with his diet, the typical 13 year old Texas boy, he likes his carbs. And he likes his carbs. And yeah, I don't know if it's feasible for me to think we could get him under six, I'm gonna keep trying. But part of me is also thinking maybe I need to be content with the fact that he's a 13 year old boy without the best diet in the world. And he's in the mid 60s. As a type one diabetic,

Scott Benner 1:08:27
I try really hard to think about some of the late 20s people that I've interviewed over the years who had type one as a child. And how many of them I hear tell the story about I went off to college. I told everybody I knew what I was doing. I didn't. My agency went way up. I panicked. I stopped paying attention to it. It took I don't even know how I lived through college like me stories like that I've heard. Luckily, I met somebody after school, thought about dating and I wanted to be healthier like that those stories, right? I don't think there's a value in him living a life that you can manage that he can't manage. And that's kind of how I come to think about it now. I mean, I'm telling you, if you can see the food that they give you at school, like for people who haven't been there in a long time, it's it really is garbage at most colleges. And don't worry, because at most private institutions, your housing and food bill is lumped together. And I think right now the national average is around $14,000. So that's fun. And you're paying, you're paying 14 grand for them to eat garbage, and it's gonna it's gonna hurt their blood sugar. If you bring it up to the school. You know what they say? We know. Great, thanks. It's hard to cook for a lot of kids is it? It's great. It's hard to make a podcast and I just do it like Like, could you just do the thing you said you were gonna do? No. Okay. But I think the point is That Arden has not lost track of the goal. She does not not understand that this isn't what she wants. But she's not beating herself up about it. And she's not giving up on it. And to me, I think that's a good balance. Because she will come home, she will eat better food here. And she will continue to put the effort in and I already told her my garden, you're gonna come home, your agency is going to come down to half a point. Like just changing food is going to do that. And then we're going to, you know, my biggest concern is her fitting cooking into her life. So we're going to spend some time teaching her how to like prep meals and stuff like that. My son, I tell you what, Jason of all the things I didn't expect. My son left home for a job like four or five months ago now, four months ago, right? He was definitely a kid who would I mean, he's 22 When he got out of college, like, you know, and he'd come downstairs, he'd be like, Can I get some eggs? I'd be like, you know how to make eggs. Right? He goes, Yeah, he's like, but you're better at it. Like, okay. What's for dinner? Like, what's for dinner? I don't even know if I saw my mom when I was 22. I'm like, okay. So when we sent him off, I said to my wife, I was like, You think you'll starve? Or you think you'll think he's gonna put on 100 pounds like Uber eating like everything. But what ended up happening was, I've never been prouder of my parenting Jason, is that you know what? One over? He's cheap. And, also, yeah, so he gets gets his own apartment gets his job. Trust me. He's not thrilled he moves across the country. He's by himself. It's not easy. He's learning. It's a first because the baseball. So first job he's ever had in his whole life. Like no life, like he went from like, I play baseball to what time? Do I have to be there? Like, we're gonna be here all day. The whole day. Just do this, the noon will break off and come back tomorrow. Like he went to like, right into the world. And he's there for a week. And I get a FaceTime. And the phone is obviously propped up on the counter and his little apartment. And he goes, I need some help. How do I make this? And I'm like, what he goes, I'm making food. I bought these containers. I'm gonna eat the same thing for lunch every day. And I'm gonna make some stuff for dinner and have it aside, I am not spending money like this one food. That was like, wow, when it was my money. Nobody cared Jason, but okay.

Jason 1:12:35
It's funny how that works, right?

Scott Benner 1:12:38
I mean, in three days, he figured it out. He's like, yo, yo, how do you make this next thing? I know, I swear to you one day, he calls me to go ask me a question about something just cooking. At least we got cooking shows when he first moved away, which was kind of nice. We just we would sit and watch and make food. He's making these little chicken chunks wrapping bacon around them, like putting this like, I don't know what there was some sort of like fresh herbs was coming in. And he was begging them. So a couple days later, I said, Hey, how are those chicken things? Because all they're really good. I said, You making them again? He goes, No, they're too much work.

Jason 1:13:14
Where are the ramen noodles?

Scott Benner 1:13:15
He's like, I'm still gonna make chicken but I'm not going to all that trouble wrapping the bacon around and everything like that. That's right. That's way too much effort. Anyway, got his head right right away. And but but what it taught me was that this gap of time when Arden is home, we need to do this with her now. Because he's a kid with a job and nobody around him that he knows he's watching sports and going to work. And you know, you know, so he's got time, my daughter's not gonna have time to teach yourself how to like proportion or foods and cook and stuff like that. So I think we have to do it now before we send her back. So that's a good idea for sure. That's on my to do list for while she's home. You know, I was at that thing this weekend. Somebody said, Where's your high alarm setup? I took some crap from people Jason. I'm not gonna lie to you. What is it x people are very direct. Like, my, my wife's like, my wife's like, how was it? I said, if you take like, they're lovely people. And they like they're just there's no pretense. It's all just very honest. And like, right, you know, open. And I said, if you if you went there with the idea of being like, getting butthurt about something, you'd be in trouble real quick. Like, so.

Jason 1:14:29
Tell it like it is. I like it. Yeah, they

Scott Benner 1:14:30
was 100% like that. And so where's your high alarm set on your, the follow for your daughter? And I said, Well, her alarm is set at 130 the whole the whole room? I'm 30. And I said but mindset it wasn't 20 I mean, after the just shock left the room. Why is yours different than hers? And I said, Well, I like my alarm to go off before hers, so that I can kind of look and see what's going on because if it's like a real like Like situation like she's flying up, I don't even want to wait till 130 to do something about that I want to start thinking about it now. But if it's a simple thing, then you know, she never even gets the alarm. Like, I see 120 The curves down at like 126 comes back and she's never alarmed by that. And that's get what you expect that's setting your expectations using your insulin correctly, then I tried to explain it to them, you know, timing, like at the end of the thing they asked us, you know, interesting question. If you could just leave us with a bumper sticker. You know, what would it say? And I said, Oh, that's easy. timing and amount. That's it. Everything about diabetes is the right amount of insulin at the right time. And I mean, there are other things, if you let me give you a second bumper sticker, I'd say something else. And the third one might talk about glycemic index and stuff, but

Jason 1:15:49
might be a buffet nudge, because that's one of the most valuable things I learned quickly from the podcast was bumping and magic.

Scott Benner 1:15:57
Okay, I'm glad you said that. But you got to take what you learned from the bumping and nudging and put it into the bolusing. Okay, see what I'm saying? Like the goal is not to bump and nudge. So if you know the need is there, get it in, so you don't need to do it manually afterwards. But I agree with you. I think bobbing and nudging is an essential way about learning about diabetes, and at the same time, not letting your blood sugar's be crazy. Like 1,000,000%. But yeah, but if you're bumping and judging all the time, listen to the bumping and nudging to pro tip where I say, hey, when I mentioned you guys about bumping energy, I didn't mean to it forever. Did I not say that? The first one. I'm sorry.

Jason 1:16:40
I need to re listen to that episode. Yeah. That's hilarious.

Scott Benner 1:16:44
So do you ever think about your daughter? Have you thought about trial net? Or does she talk about it?

Jason 1:16:52
We haven't even broach the subject yet. But it'll be something we talked about. I'm sure at some point, let's see if she's interested in finding out or not, again, without a family history on either side. His diagnosis was such a shock. But it doesn't mean it's not possible. But no, we haven't spoken

Scott Benner 1:17:11
about it yet. I wouldn't call God Hashimotos. Like it almost knocked me off my feet. He is his whole young life, like a physical specimen. And just, you know, so active and what you think of is healthy when you look at somebody. And like, you know, we sent him for trial that all those years ago when he didn't have any markers for type one. And I just thought, oh, okay, well, that's that he got the he's gonna be the one that's okay. And she'll be the one that has this. And yeah, when he got that, like, it floored me, so I don't know. I know. It's up to her. She's older. You know what I mean? Like, I think I'm in the camp of I want to know. But, like, if it's possible that the I don't know. That's what I mean, listen, if you're hurt, I had prevention bio on here, right to talk about tz old which they called Tomislav, when it was in studies. He's the old market. That drug that infusion that, you know, once you have the markers and you're moving in the wrong direction, they say can, you know, keep diabetes, they delayed for a while. That company just got sold to Sanofi the other day. And I'm, I don't want to talk out of school. But I think Sanofi paid $3 billion for it. Wow. So somebody must be very hopeful about that science. is very interesting. Yeah. Is what it made me think I can see if I can find it.

Jason 1:18:37
Yeah, I mean, my initial thoughts are kind of the same as far as wanting to find out at some point, because at least you can be proactive for some things, if you know that. It may be coming. Yeah. But at the same time, ignorance is bliss in many ways. So I

Scott Benner 1:18:55
understand. Trust me, I understand both sides of that argument. 100% March 13, Sanofi agrees to pay 2.9 billion for prevention bio. Wow. Okay, it seems like a couple of dollars. And also not for nothing. It's an awfully, but it seems like you can afford to repeat your ad. You know what I mean? Give me a call. So I mean,

Jason 1:19:18
speaking of you guys use a Pietra Yeah.

Scott Benner 1:19:20
Is that correct? Yes. And I'm the only one I'm the only one with a voice in this community who says a pager and I don't hear from nobody, you know what I mean? And apparently there's 3 billion sitting in a bank somewhere. I don't need 3 billion.

Jason 1:19:33
So World War on human logs, but I'm actually wanting to try a pager just to see if there's any difference in the way he responds to it. So that's, I actually have that listed as a question for our next endo appointment. Tomorrow is to see about maybe getting a picture prescribed just just to give it a try. Figure, why not?

Scott Benner 1:19:53
If you ask that your doctor is going to tell you not not many insurance companies cover it. That's by the way, if I'm joking, sidewise an office not buying ads work. And they'll probably talk to you about fee Asper loom Jove, and tell you that it's faster. I will tell you I think Arden would be using FASB if it didn't burn her when she uses it. So she gets its things and it leaves her site sore, which is a there's an additive, I think it's vitamin D that makes it work faster. And some people don't tolerate it well, and Arden doesn't. So but here's what I love about a pager for Arden super smooth. Like, I this is not a lie. I haven't seen two arrows in either direction, in years. And I attribute that to the picture. And the truth is, I mean, I haven't seen an arrow up and very often, like we don't see straight up and down arrows very often. And I attribute that not just to how you know we use insulin and that artists using an algorithm, but that that the pager just seems to work very smoothly in her.

Jason 1:21:05
And is that regardless of the pump she used with it. She's

Scott Benner 1:21:09
only ever used it with Omni pod, but she's used it with Omni pod, no algorithm, Omni pod five Omni pod with loop. Okay,

Jason 1:21:18
yeah, that's actually more what I meant by the question. Yeah, different types. You know, it's just same result.

Scott Benner 1:21:24
I swear to you, I a double arrow would absolutely. That would shock me more than call heaven. Hashimotos. like, Wait, what happened? What did we do wrong? Is there a problem?

Jason 1:21:37
Yeah, see, I want to get to that point. I see double arrows a little too often. Yeah, so I mentioned crashing, you know, working on that as well. Just being a little more aggressive with it. I wouldn't be doing any of this without having that CGM. Just the peace of mind. Being able to keep up with everything. I think. I think it was Ginni once said that, you know, she could only have one piece of technology had to give up everything else. The one piece that she would cling to for her life was the CGM. Yeah, and I couldn't agree more.

Scott Benner 1:22:07
No, I'm with you. I mean, it's, uh, I mean, in today's world, it's a it's a false equivalent. But yes, if you absolutely said to me, just one, I'd say I will get the CGM. And you know, we'll go back to MDI and figure out the rest, and it won't be as easy. I mean, listen, between you, me and whoever's listening. Those algorithms are amazing. Like, they're just amazing. I spent so much time with people this weekend, who were wearing a lot of on the pod five, a lot of control IQ in the room, which was super interesting. And I'll break down another episode somewhere because they don't use a lot of technology. But when it's for their health, it's, you know, kind of permissible, there are people who fundamentally do not know what they're doing with their blood sugar's who are still keeping a one, season seven. And that's astonishing. And not only that, but and these people would not mind me sharing this, the food that they're eating every weekend for Schabas. is, I mean, it's carb heavy is not like a great description, like, like, there. I don't know if anybody knows what Kugel is, but I learned this weekend. And it's a lot of noodles compressed down into it's so dense, you feel like you could throw a piece of it at somebody and hurt. Like, I just noodles and oil and like, you know, and just honest, like, I don't know how many of you are doing this. But I was astonished at how well they were all doing. But algorithm, like the people who weren't on the algorithms were struggling more than people who were on them, even though they could maybe mess up a meal and end up at 250. They go to bed. And when they wake up in the morning, it's back down again. Is that optimal? It's not but it's way better than waking up at 250. Still,

Jason 1:23:51
yeah, we started Omnipod, five last July, actually received it while we were on vacation, learned that it had been shipped. And we started it right after getting back from Disney World. And it's got that algorithm. It's not perfect. No technology is but it has given us our nights back in our sleep back. And I mean, the only lows we fight at night on a consistent basis now are Oh goodness. What's the term for it when he's lying on his CGM compression, compression? I could not think of the word compression. Yeah, compression. Those are the only time he truly goes low at night, and I still haven't figured out where to put that thing on the floor. You won't just instinctively lie flat on it. Get a compression but the Omnipod five, it's been a saint for us particularly overnight.

Scott Benner 1:24:45
That's excellent. Maybe fingers crossed the g7 when it's available to us with AMI pod five maybe that will help with compression loads if we're lucky, very

Jason 1:24:53
hopeful. stoked about the warmup time it just the smaller size for sure. But yeah, in the back of my mind I'm taking baby can afford to have as many compression but yeah, we'll see time will tell.

Scott Benner 1:25:03
Yeah, when I visited art and a couple of weeks ago, just there was Parents Weekend. And Kelly's like, she's starting to talk weird. I'm like, she's like, she's like, I can't wait to come home for the summer. And I'm like, that's weird. She goes, you know, art is not like, like, very, she's not incredibly demonstrative. But I'm like, and she's like, I'm excited to come home for summer. She's like, you should go down for Parents Weekend. So I flew down and got her hotel room, and it just yanked her out, like, just kept with me for two nights, you know, like, we hung out together, but the mattress was just a little harder. And she was wearing a G six. And the compression was like, we're just like, I don't know something about where she was wearing it. And that mattress, right, it's like, and then so last night, I mean, aside from the fact that she did lit one o'clock in the morning, she switched to g7 last night. So I mean, my God. And you know what I did? I'll tell you, my emotional maturity. I'm almost my age now. My emotional maturity,

Jason 1:26:03
because several ways to go, but you

Scott Benner 1:26:07
sent a whole, I had a whole text type that was like, This is why I told you to change this thing thing sooner. Like, you're pitching me now that it's late, and I'm texting, you know, like, that was the whole text. And then I just deleted it. And I said, Hey, let's just get this taken care of, so we can go to sleep.

Jason 1:26:29
But let me ask this, though, was tics are typing it out, but not see me get ahead to be somewhat therapeutic? Right? I mean, a little bit.

Scott Benner 1:26:38
Is one in the morning, I'm standing direction. Listen, for Christ's sake. I mean, you know, you know what, I stopped myself. I'm saying about a half a dozen times a year. There are countless hundreds of 1000s of people who would pay me to stand here and talk to them about this. And you're looking at me, like I got three heads. And I don't know what I'm talking about. I'm the guy from the podcast. My best advice, do this earlier in the evening. And by the way, not brain surgery, what I've just said, you know, perfectly logical, but where the annoyance came from is it's me in my underwear standing on a hard floor in the hallway. So I don't wake my wife up trying to talk to her about her, you know, and I'm just like, I'm cold, and I'm tired. And I'm still rebounding from the weekend because not for nothing. Orthodox people don't use electricity, sundown Friday, sundown Sunday, or Sunday on Saturday, that gap of time. And I don't know if you've ever tried to talk to a room of hundreds of people without a microphone. But it's not easy. I'm like drained. Still, when I get home, like I know that sounds weird. But talking a lot. Accessing ideas, delivering them clearly. projecting your voice. And then I No, this is not a humble brag, but at these situations, I can't walk five feet. Like, I'm like inside of a diabetes gathering. You know, I'm, I'm Tom Cruise around brisky business, like, like, I take five steps and people like Scott, I just have a question. And then that's a 15 minute conversation. And when I get done, and I look up, there are four people standing behind them waiting for their turn, and I'm like, I'm just trying to get to the water bottles on the other side of the room. And then someone goes, I'll get it for you like, Ah, okay, I'm not getting out of this. I say. It's really exhausting. And then like, you know, I finally get home and now I'm in the hallway freezing going. We couldn't have done this four hours ago. Anyway.

Jason 1:28:58
I feel your pain. Yeah.

Scott Benner 1:29:01
Somebody with young kids at this thing this weekend says when does it get easier? I said, I'll let you know when that happens. I mean, how old are your children? I said, 23 and 19. It's not easier yet. I'm like, I mean, I'm still worried about them. And they still run into things they don't understand. And, you know, like, I don't know what's easier. Maybe

Jason 1:29:27
that will ever change. It might evolve a little bit. But yeah, it's just that's part of parenting.

Scott Benner 1:29:33
One of my breaks on Saturday, I called my mom just check in on her. And she's asking me how it's going. And I'm telling her, you know, we were on the phone to talk and she goes Scott, why don't you lay down instead? I'm 51 my mom's like, take a nap.

Jason 1:29:51
Don't bother taking advice.

Scott Benner 1:29:53
I mean, I like to watch the baseball league and watch a baseball game. Is that the same thing? Little minutes, but But I mean, just that's the point like my 80 year old mother was like, Oh, we have time to talk. But then when she heard that I was like, text like, you know, stretching myself, she's like, why don't you rest instead you have a couple hours off. You're like taking a break, by the way, thanks to the Rabbi's wife, who, like just grabbed me by the shoulders and was like, go go take a break. She's like, they're never gonna leave you alone. Just get out of here. I'm like, Okay, I need to have somebody walk me to the elevator. So it can look official so I could get away. Actually, anyway, I'm available for speaking engagements.

there anything we haven't talked about that you would have liked to?

Jason 1:30:45
Man, I don't really think so. I mean, if there's one piece of advice I could give, especially to those that were little over two years in to this diagnosis is, number one would be found this podcast, you, you have found the right place. But number two is advocate for if it's yourself as the type one diabetic, or if you're a parent of a type one diabetic, advocate for your child, both with providers with insurance companies don't take just stock answers. This is how we do things. You know, again, I think we were supposed to wait three months before we got to CGM and six months for a pump. And I just kept pushing and kept learning and researching these things and got both things and half the amount of time. Yeah, so I mean, I totally understand, needing to learn the basics of multiple daily injections and how to handle it at that most basic level in case you know, technology just all of a sudden vanishes. But six weeks was enough time for us to be very comfortable with using, you know, Basal and Bolus and doing fingerprints and all that, yeah,

Scott Benner 1:31:56
I lost track of the amount of people this weekend that told me their TSH was three, but their doctor told them they don't need you know, Synthroid, but they have every symptom of hypothyroidism. You know, it's in range, you're good, don't worry about it. Right. They're struggling every day trying to like hold their head up, you know. So you got to advocate for yourself, let's I spend a lot of time telling people that this weekend, and I appreciate you bringing it up to and

Jason 1:32:23
beyond that. One of the things I learned again, from you guys, just box is also making corrections. So once you get, you know, if you do evolve and go to a pump, and not to wait in between your three month appointments with your endo to make corrections to your correction factor, any of the things, particularly if you have a CGM just to be your best advocate when it comes to making small adjustments and see how that works. So I can't thank you guys above for everything you do. Scott and Jenny, everybody else, it's been amazing. I ran into a an old friend today. In fact, while I was walking this morning, first thing, and I was listening to one of the latest episodes that came out and I just shared with them, you know, just how helpful the podcast has been to us and to countless others across the world.

Scott Benner 1:33:19
Thank you, I really appreciate that. I don't It's not off putting to you, like part of the country you're in when I tell silly stories or say bizarre things that people

Jason 1:33:29
keep listening. Okay. I think our sense of humor is are very similar. That's, you make it easier to digest and the use of humor and just crazy things you might say here and there. It just cracks me up.

Scott Benner 1:33:44
Oh, good. I was shocked this weekend when I mean, I got again, I'm not bragging, but I got stopped a lot this weekend walking around. And, you know, just very polite, like, thank you so much for coming. We really appreciate it. I think part of that was because people kept telling me like, there's going to be a massive culture shock when you get to this event. And I have to tell you that if you I separated the, like the religion is, is different. It's just different than what I'm accustomed to seeing. And if you just separate that, and I mean, they're just just everyone's got a big beard, like, you know, the the clothes are different, like, you know, they have, I mean, I acted as the shabbos goy for someone. Do you know what that means? Jason? I do not. I went to their hotel room on Saturday night to shut the lights off for them, because they're not allowed to operate the switches. And so, I mean, that's how specific I mean, that's the tip of the iceberg for what their their religion in their culture is like, but every time I got together with a bunch of ladies or a bunch of guys, and we stood and talked. I couldn't I can't tell you that there's no difference. It's between those people and anybody else I've ever met my entire life. Right? Like, you know, and so very quickly, I just gave away the idea of like, this isn't like forget the culture shock. Like, who cares? They don't dress the way I do, like, what do I care, you know. But anyway, they that everywhere I stopped, thank you so much for coming. And then I, you know, and we appreciate it like that there was a lot of that. But then afterwards, if I stopped to stand and talk for a second, I lost track of the number of people telling me how digestible the information was, and how other people have come and spoken here. But you know, it's boring, or I didn't understand any of it, or it didn't stick with me. And then a man comes to me an older gentleman. And he says, 45 years I've had diabetes. You're the first person that ever stood on that stage and made sense to me. Yeah. And I thought, cool. Like, I don't know why. But everybody mentioned, thank you for making it easier to understand. Thank you for bringing some humor into it. It always feels so sad and solid and didn't feel like that this weekend. I said, Oh, great. Well, it's not if you don't let it be, you know, so,

Jason 1:36:10
as far as I'm concerned, you are doing what you were put on this earth to do, Scott, with this podcast and with all of your efforts. It's just it was meant to be as far as I'm concerned.

Scott Benner 1:36:22
I appreciate that very much. It means a lot to me and made me feel a little tingly. And it's weird because I'm looking at a picture of you and you look like you could kill a bear if you wanted to. Alright, I'm gonna, I'm gonna say goodbye. And then I have other questions for you. Oh, I do have one other question. Did listen to this podcast lead you to listen to any other podcasts or your podcast personnel?

Jason 1:36:42
Yes. Yes. So one of my favorite is fly on the wall podcast. This was Dana Carvey and oh my gosh, I really got a David Spade. Yeah, why don't David Spade me. And I I do listen to other podcasts as well. Now, so yeah, you. You broke the ice man. I started listening to Juicebox Podcast fan now. I'm

Scott Benner 1:37:06
glad. That's excellent. All right, Jason, thanks so much. Hold on for me one second.

Jason 1:37:10
Thank you. Yep.

Scott Benner 1:37:20
I want to thank Jason for coming on the show and sharing his story. And actually, I got to meet Jason in person at a speaking event I did recently in Texas. It was lovely to meet him and his family. Let's thank also Omni pod and remind you to go to Omni pod.com/juicebox To get started right now with the new pod five or Omni pod Dash. And speaking of Omni pod five, brand new content coming next week. Look for Ask the Expert in your podcast player. There'll be three episodes on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday. Other things to look for the private Facebook group Juicebox Podcast type one diabetes, and cozy earth.com thank them so much for sponsoring. And don't forget to use their offer code juice box at checkout to save 40% off of your entire order. Thank you so much for listening. I'll be back soon with another episode of The Juicebox Podcast right after I go to touched by type one.org and see what they're up to