#1076 Hey Tall Boy

Claren is in med school, has type 1 diabetes and some thyroid issues. 

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Scott Benner 0:00
Hello friends and welcome to episode 1076 of the Juicebox Podcast

CLARIN has had type one diabetes for 18 years since she was 12 years old. She's in her fourth or fifth year of residency. She's a surgeon, and she's got type one diabetes, some thyroid issues, and a great story. While you're listening, please remember that nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise, always consult a physician before making any changes to your health care plan. We're becoming bold with insulin. Apple podcast listeners. If you're using that Apple podcast app, I need you to do me a favor with the last update to iOS 17, the podcast app changed and it might have mucked up your downloading, go to your library, touch Juicebox Podcast touch the top right corner the three dots, then choose settings after settings automatically download after you choose that click on all new episodes, and then everything will be back to the way it should be. Thank you very much for doing that. In return, you can get 40% off of all of your comfortable clothes. At cozy earth.com. When you use the offer code juice box at checkout, there's also sheets and towels and just a ton of great stuff. Just kidding, that would that happens whether you do the thing of the podcast app or not. But the thing of the podcast app would really help me. Apple made some changes to settings. And to be blunt, it's not good for me. And when it's not good for me is not good for you because you want this podcast and I want to make it for you. This episode of The Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by Dexcom Dexcom, of course makes the Dexcom G seven ng six continuous glucose monitoring systems. And moreover, it's amazing dexcom.com/juice box my daughter is wearing the G seven right now. It's small and lovely. You're going to want to take a harder look at it at dexcom.com/juice box links in the show notes. Links at juicebox podcast.com. The podcast is also sponsored today. By ag one that's drink ag one.com/juice box. You can start your day the same way I do with the delicious, refreshing drink of ag one. Get five free travel packs in the year supply of vitamin D with your first order when you use my link.

Claren 2:38
I'm clearing I'm 20 Nope, not 29 anymore. I just turned 30 This past year. Happy birthday. Thanks. Well, it's been a while now. I'm just still not used to being 30 that I take it back on an unhappy thing. But 30 years old. I have had diabetes since I was 12. Diagnosed a few months after my 12th birthday in sixth grade. Wow. And so yeah, going on. I think it's actually been 18 years. Yeah, as of January. Yeah. And

Scott Benner 3:08
you're only 30. And

Claren 3:10
I'm 30 Yeah, yeah, that

Scott Benner 3:11
reminds that reminds me of when a doctor said to me once like don't worry, like complications from type one don't come for like 30 years. And I was like, but she's she's too. Right. And he looked at me. I'm like, so you mean, she'll be 32? And he Yeah, and he goes, Oh, yeah, that's not comforting. And I went right. Thank you. Terrific bedside manner. Thanks a lot. Yeah. Meanwhile, even just that long ago, expectations for diabetes aren't even what they what they are now. Oh, absolutely not. Yeah, really cool. I'm sorry. Good. So you were 18 years ago? 12 years old. What are 12? Yes. What? Yes. 12.

Claren 3:48
And I started with the pins. I think I did. Actually I didn't have pens. When I started. I remember drawing insulin out of vials, and use, I believe human lager Novolog and that was maybe the beginning of like Lev Amir. So I think that's what I started with. I did that for a while and then got switched to the pins. And then got my first pump when I was actually in college and undergrad, and then went back off the pump because I was tired of it being on me 24/7 And then I went to medical school where things got more complicated. And that's when I went back on the pump and I've been on ever since

Scott Benner 4:30
you just made me realize you just made me realize artists never seen an insulin pen in our life. Well, she was diagnosed it too. They gave her syringes. No one ever, like suggested there was something else. And then she got right on Omnipod How about that? Yeah.

Claren 4:50
I did pins for quite some time. So I probably did pins for longer than I've had a pump at this point that we're probably catching up. It's probably about half an hour. And

Scott Benner 5:00
you've gone off and off and on with the pump. What was your first pump?

Claren 5:03
The first pump was a Medtronic, it was blue. I can't remember what the model name was. But it was much different than the ones now it was kinda generic and or like basic, I should say, No, it didn't have like a color screen or anything. And that was probably like 2011 that I was on that maybe 2012 did that for a few years. And then I just didn't want it was a tube pump. I didn't want it anymore and went back to pins and I was doing okay with the pins. I wasn't doing great, but I did okay. And then like I said, got busy when I went to medical school actually got a Dex calm before I got back on the pump. And then it just made everything a lot easier. Yeah. And actually, what triggered me going back on the pump the second time is I was diagnosed with Graves disease, and had a really hard time controlling blood sugar's and it was kind of a misdiagnosis initially, because my thyroid labs were, I had all the symptoms of graves. But when we checked my labs the first time they were normal. So I like went through three more months. I was tachycardic. Er, and just ended up having a cardiology workup because they were like, well, we don't know why your heart rates 120 all the time. And then we're like, let's just reach at the thyroid labs. And at that point, they're like, oh, yeah, this is great. This totally makes sense. Yeah. So that was when I went back on the pump. And I've been on it. And since then, I'm on a tandem.

Scott Benner 6:27
This actually happened to Arden, not exactly the same, but she got her hypothyroid diagnosis, and you know, lived with it, going along just fine. And then she started to I don't know if I've ever been really clear about this or not. But Arden was a very tiny person. And then she got her thyroid diagnosis. They put her on Synthroid, and she grew like a lot. So Arden went from being the tiniest kid in her school, to she's as an adult, five, seven. And so she gains weight as she gets taller. And now I know, looking back, of course her Synthroid needs would have gone up because of the mass change in her weight. And instead, she ends up getting a full cardiac workup for her thyroid symptoms. Right. Yeah. Which was upsetting, as you may be able to imagine. Yeah, yeah. So graves, how does graves Come on?

Claren 7:25
Well, it was, I started noticing, actually, it was my heart rate. I was like sitting in class one day. And I just realized, like, Man, I kind of feel like I'm a little tired. Like, my heart feels like it's racing. And you know, the Apple Watches, you can click your heart rate. And it was like sitting at like, 120, just into a lecture. And I'm like, this is weird. And so I kind of brushed it off, I was exercising quite a bit at that time. And so I was noticing that, like, when I was working out, my heart rate was going like way higher than it had been in the past. So it was kind of a few weeks of figuring that out. And then I was like, this isn't normal. And then I started having, I was losing weight as well. Like I said, I was working out and I was like, Man, I just I'm doing good, a good job. And then I went to see my endocrinologist, I think just like a routine checkup. And I kind of explained the symptoms to her. And she was like, yeah, what could be thyroid, and I don't know if I was due for my yearly labs or whatever. But we ended up checking them and they were normal. And she was like, I don't really know what to tell you. But just see how it goes. And then I was referred to cardiology. I did like the whole holter monitor and got an echo and everything. And of course, it was normal, other than having just a mild, fast heart rate. And then I started having like a lot of anxiety too. And then shortly after that, I've always been a very like type a prompt person. And there was two or three occasions where I was late for work, or late for my rotations that I was on. And my roommates who I lived with were also medical students. And there was one instance where I just overslept. And like I got up late and they were still home and like, they couldn't understand like what I was saying like it wasn't making sense when I was talking. And we think retrospectively what happened is I may have had like, some kind of seizure and I was in like a post electoral state when I woke up and that was the reason I overslept in alarm because I don't have any have any recollection of this. And so I think it was having just such wild blood sugar swings in addition to the attack cardio and the anxiety and the sweats and it all just like mounted to be this graves diagnosis.

Scott Benner 9:31
Wow, that's easy. That's so interesting. I mean for me, not for you. It's terrible for you.

Claren 9:35
That's interesting. I know. Yeah. Hey,

Scott Benner 9:37
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Claren 12:46
I'm baseline kind of anxious, but I think it's like the amount of anxiety that makes me functional. Like, I'm just always like, go go go. And like I said, very type A and it's just my baseline level anxiety is just my normal. So

Scott Benner 13:07
was it like shock? And by the way, way to like strong, strong title possibility baseline anxious to do something else to get us off of that one. But was it enough that it was like a conscious thought? Like, I'm not usually this anxious? Like, yeah,

Claren 13:23
I noticed a difference. And it was, I was just a lot more like in terms of studying, I felt like I had to do more. And I wasn't doing as well. And I just felt like I wasn't functioning as like as highly as I used to. So I was more worried about the fact that like I'm trying to I'm trying harder to accomplish things. I'm not achieving the same outcome. Because I was having that anxiety that was just like creeping in and really affecting multiple areas of my life.

Scott Benner 13:56
I was at a an event this weekend where I spoke to a lot of people with diabetes. And first thing I thought to tell you when you told me about the pump you had was that somebody pulled an animus ping out of their pocket and showed it to me this. I was like, where did you get that? Yeah, I can't believe that still works. The other thing is that I spent a lot of time trying to explain to them impacts that they'll have from things like thyroid, low iron, hormones, things that I don't I don't believe a lot of people are even made aware of let alone know to look for when something starts happening. So and you said you said my favorite thing around thyroid, which is and I hope people heard it. You had all the symptoms. But they look at you and said oh no, your labs are fine. So we'll just ignore the symptoms. And

Claren 14:41
yeah, I wouldn't say they ignored them. It was just okay. We need to find out what's going on if this is not so, and it probably took three months before I had labs rechecked again, and by that point, I was just like losing my mind.

Scott Benner 14:54
Yeah, but were you in there on day one thing, there's something wrong with my thyroid?

Claren 14:59
No because, like I said, I had been exercising quite a bit, I was just stressed out from being a medical student. And I mean, I had lost maybe five or 10 pounds. So it wasn't like that much. Because it was just really like, there were things to explain the symptoms. It just was all together when you hear all of them now you're like, Oh, that's a thyroid problem. Yeah,

Scott Benner 15:20
but it is. maddening, right, that so many autoimmune issues all share the same core symptoms, right? It's just really as frustrating. You say for things. They're like, Yeah, that could be this. It could be this. It can be like, great. Good, big help. Okay, so you get that worked out with medication? Did you ever swing around, I hear stories. Sometimes people start graves, and they'll get hypo. And they'll come back again, like, where are you?

Claren 15:46
So I actually, I was in third year medical school about to start a rotation in surgery. And I've since decided to become a surgeon. And I knew that leading up to that, I was just not going to be able to function in that surgery rotation. If I was still having any kind of those symptoms, I was just not performing at my highest. And so I went to my first week, my endocrinologist tried the methimazole. And I actually was having like, an orthostatic type of response to it. Like anytime I'd stand up too quickly, I feel like I was gonna pass out so I didn't do too well with the medications. And she was like, well, the other option is you can do the radioactive iodine to ablate the thyroid or we can just schedule you for surgery or get you in to see a surgeon and you can take it out surgically and that's what I ended up choosing to do. So about I think it was like eight days after I was diagnosed. I tried the medicine for like a week and then I got in with the surgeon and then the next week we had a thyroidectomy.

Scott Benner 16:44
So we take that out and then we some now we supplement with Synthroid

Claren 16:48
Synthroid. Yes. And that works for you. Yes, it does. I actually also just had twins about four months ago. So the that was really fun to figure out the dose adjustment to that with the Synthroid way, up way down. Way. So my base dose, which is actually higher than I would expect for my weight was 137. And I was taking ended up taking up to 200 a day when I was pregnant. Wow.

Scott Benner 17:13
Yeah, I mean, it sounds like a big number until you remember that the thyroids? not there at all. So yeah, you don't have to supplement with any teeth or anything. Your energy's good all that. Well, exactly. Say

Claren 17:24
my energy is about as good as it can be for new mom with four month old twins, a

Scott Benner 17:29
30 year old lady that just had two babies and as a doctor, yeah, yeah. I'm standing up, Scott. It's all good. Yeah, most days. Yeah, most days, right. Oh, that's, that's really something. So I guess go back a little bit. You're diagnosed as a young child like you, do you manage it yourself? Do your parents help you? How did how were the first few years. first

Claren 17:52
few years, it was actually I was diagnosed right around the time that my parents were actually getting a divorce. And so I lived with just my mom at the time. And I remember, she spent so much like effort counting out everything specifically, like we'd have pre portioned like green beans and containers and like, you'd have to count everything by the exact carbon, we just were like, to the tee for the first few years. And then I'd say probably a year or two into it, I was like, you know, 13 years old starting to kind of want to do things on my own. And that's probably when I switch to the pins. And I just kind of took over from that point in time. Okay. And that's, she would like checking in with me. But it may be more like irritable as a teenage girl to feel like she was constantly checking up on me than to just manage things on my own. So it ended up being really just me managing it from that point. And I did an okay job. I think retrospectively, I didn't have the dex calm and it was, I didn't check it as much as I should. But few times a day, I would check it, I'd say it was decent numbers. And then of course, every now and then you just would have highs or lows. And I just treat them how I knew treat them. And it's just so different now.

Scott Benner 19:12
Now, were you able to take that knowledge you had from growing up in school, were you able to take it to college and maintain your level of management?

Claren 19:23
I'd say undergrad, kind of when I I'd spent my first year at college locally and commuted to college and then I transferred to a larger university and lived away from home and probably that's when I had less control over everything just because I was eating on my own eating more fast foods, things like that. And just had the freedom to do whatever like whatever schedule I wanted. So I probably had a onesies up to the like eight, maybe even nine at that point in time for a very few short years and retrospective and like, Why was I doing but by the time I got to medical school I was, I'd say I kept them probably around seven, which is crazy to think now because I'm doing much better control wise now. But at the time, like, my endocrinologist was happy with that. And I was under the impression like, that's good enough. And that's when I had gone back on pins. And I didn't have the Dexcom yet. And it's just my standards now are so different from my standards, then. And I felt like I was doing fine, probably with I just wasn't putting in the effort that I should have. How do

Scott Benner 20:36
you think about it? When you look back? Was it really like not putting in the effort? Or were you taxed to the point where you had to let something go? And that's what you let go?

Claren 20:44
I think it's both because I was probably just kind of in audit mode with how I handled the diabetes like, I didn't Pre-Bolus like I should have been probably that's the the main thing that I needed to do differently. I don't think my like numbers, or my doses were crazy off. It was just, I wasn't always taking insulin before I ate or I wasn't always eating healthy. And then I would just either correct it how I knew to correct it, or just worry about it later. So

Scott Benner 21:17
at that point, undergrad, you don't have a Dexcom. You said you got that in medical school. Right? Correct. Yeah. Wow. That's crazy. I mean, how often do you think you were testing? In college?

Claren 21:27
I'd say probably like four times a day. Yeah. So probably anytime a when it came down, it

Scott Benner 21:34
made me laugh, because I thought like, what if I took your CGM right from you now and said here, you can just ask, do you think you'd test four times a

Claren 21:40
day? And probably charge like 14 times?

Scott Benner 21:44
That's something how it's just a little more technology leads you to, to so much more, what makes you um, I mean, people come on here and tell stories all the time, I grew up with diabetes. And that's what made me want to be a physician or nurse or something. Did that have any impact on you?

Claren 21:59
Yeah, initially, I had wanted to go to medical school and be a pediatric endocrinologist just because when I was growing up, I didn't really like any of the physicians, I saw. I saw some nurse practitioners as well. That just nobody really, like, I just didn't like them. And I was like, I'm going to be a cool doctor that it's going to be understand what's going on, kids are going to be able to be comfortable, like telling me about their problems. And then I go to medical school, do my pediatric pediatrics rotation, I was like, Man, these parents are really hard to deal with. And then I went to, like other rotations. And I was like, it's just not for me to work with the kid. It's, I would love to be able to do just diabetes care, just type one diabetes care for kids. But there's so many other things that come with doing peds in endocrinology, that I just didn't really have interest in.

Scott Benner 22:50
Yeah, so yeah, actually, diabetes is a pretty small part of their practice, right?

Claren 22:55
It's a very small part of the practice. Yeah, yeah.

Scott Benner 22:57
I honestly, I think that in the 16 years, Arden was in a peds hospital. I don't know that we laid eyes on that doctor, maybe a half a dozen times. It's about it's always the nurse practitioner or, you know, a CDE or something like that that was helping you. So no, make that that makes sense to me. And if you don't have the interest, then what are you gonna do? Right? So you lean towards surgery eventually?

Claren 23:26
Yes. And that was just because I feel like you can you can fix people's problems with surgery. They show up. They're like, Hey, I'm having this gallbladder pain. You take the gallbladder out, and they feel better. Yeah. So it's things like that. It's just more of an instant gratification than some like in medicine, where you can't really fix anything unless a patient's willing to change something on their own, whether that's their lifestyle, their diet, they're willing to do exercise, things like that. And it's just Yes, you can you can change things. I shouldn't say that. But it takes longer times and a lot more effort. And that's just not how America is. Yeah.

Scott Benner 24:06
And the failure rates higher too. Right, right. Yeah. Hey, can you give me something called, let's see Thoracic Outlet Syndrome surgery, because I'm starting to think I might need that.

Claren 24:15
Once you remove your first rib,

Scott Benner 24:19
my like for like the last 10 years. I have a lawnmower right? That I have to reach out to drive. And when I do it, my left hand gets cold. And more recently, it's been if I sleep on my stomach with my hands over my heads, my hand gets numb or cold. And now yesterday, I was like pushing a cart around the store. And my hand was getting numb and cold. And I was like unbelievable. So I texted a friend of mine who's a different kind of surgeon. And I was like I said if I'd said that, every time I raised my arms, it feels like something either in my shoulder or my elbow was is pinching like I don't like it doesn't feel it there but like it's the only thing that Get like I can imagine like, it feels like something structural is happening. And he's like, Oh, it might be this. And I was like, Yeah, I was hoping for something with a pill. And he got used to there's no pill for this. And then he just sent me a big knife in text messages, which I did not find that comforting, but I thought he must have found amusing. By the way, Claire and I think he had very quick access to the knife emoji as if I'm not the first person who's received the text message. Anyway, I have not been to a doctor. I don't know if that's actually what's wrong, but it is really fascinating. Like, if I just lift my left arm up for too long, my hand goes numb. So would I look thinner without the rib? Or would I look silly?

Claren 25:41
Well, I don't think you'd look much different. Damn.

Scott Benner 25:46
Well, then, what's the point? I'll just keep my arm down. Yeah. So what kind of surgeries do you generally do?

Claren 25:54
And I'm still in residency. Basically, after my four years of undergrad four years in medical school, I'm about to start my fourth out of five years of residency. And then I'll be doing general surgery which is things like gall bladders, hernias, colon surgeries. That's just the kind of bread and butter I'll do thyroids. parathyroids, wow.

Scott Benner 26:19
Oh,

Claren 26:19
mutation.

Scott Benner 26:21
Wait a minute append appendix, right. Appendix. That's

Claren 26:24
a big one. Yeah,

Scott Benner 26:25
I'm sorry. I said, Wait a minute, because I'm like, amputations. Yes. Oh, I see. So if someone needs something amputated, so if you're seeing a doctor for x, and then oh, then they come back to a to a general surgeon for something like that.

Claren 26:39
And it can be vascular surgery, too, or orthopedic surgery. But a lot of the times, and that's another thing that when I started medical residency, I really was like, Man, I gotta get my diabetes in gear, because I was amputating so many toes and things like that. And like much older people, not on people my age, but still, it was just seeing the complications of long standing diabetes. I was like, Okay, this is real.

Scott Benner 27:04
So do you think that? Well, let me ask this first, do you have any other diabetes in your family?

Claren 27:10
No, not even type two.

Scott Benner 27:12
How about other autoimmune stuff?

Claren 27:15
I think I have an aunt with that, or that takes thyroid medicine. And that's pretty much it.

Scott Benner 27:19
Okay, so you didn't have context for diabetes? And then you get it. And then when you go to when you go to medical school, like I guess this is a question I should ask everybody who's a doctor as type one. Like when we all are out in the world going? It seems like they don't know anything about it, like talking to like your general practitioner or your kids doctor or stuff like that. Is it because they really don't?

Claren 27:44
I'd say they know like the textbook answers of like, these are the complications that happen from long standing diabetes. These are the numbers that generally you don't see complications with if you keep it within this range. But unless it like you said, as a general practitioner, somebody who's doing endocrinology and sees this repeatedly, I'd say most doctors don't have very much information on especially how to manage diabetes. They can do like sliding scale, insulin in the hospital, things like that. But day in and day out. Management is not taught. Typically. Give

Scott Benner 28:18
me one second here. I'm gonna walk you through this. Arden's doing a project at school right now. She's distressing a skirt that she's made. And so she went to she went to the fabric store to get this tool that you use to distract like distress the skirt, and they didn't have it. So I said go to the home store and get like lemon zester, which is basically the same thing. Yeah. And she's said, Hmm, so let me see if I can figure this out. Home Goods type store.

Claren 28:48
Maybe cheese grater.

Scott Benner 28:50
Yeah, like a cheese grater, lemon zester or what else? sandpaper? Heavy grit. Right. Claritin helped me what else what else would work like that?

Claren 29:09
I feel like three options is enough. Yeah,

Scott Benner 29:12
you think so? Oh, no. Um, oh, wait, wait, wait, what's the thing? The thing for dry skin on your heels?

Claren 29:22
Oh, like the thing that yeah, pumice stone.

Scott Benner 29:26
Yeah, hold on a second. That's a good one. I'm sorry. We'll get back to you. Just a second. I think it's probably

Claren 29:34
it sounded weird when I said it.

Scott Benner 29:37
I just Googled heal grader and by the way, came up with a pedicure foot like this. This is what parenting has turned into since you went to college. It used to be more I used to. I used to be more involved with the bigger decisions. Alright, I've done my part. Also, I also I paid for the college. So actually yeah, actually You guys paid for the college, so thank you. But yeah, I mean, that's gotta be I said homestore like a cheese grater, lemon zester or sandpaper, heavy grit Wait, wait, try skin thing for your heels. And then I set up a picture of it, she'll figure it out. Okay? Otherwise she's like picking at it with tweezers to pull it apart. And like it's taken her for like, it's going to take her a year. So yeah.

Speaker 2 30:23
Anyway, she made her first like she made like a skirt. It looks amazing. It's kind of exciting. Because she had been talking about it for so long. Alright, so sorry. I want to know about residency.

Scott Benner 30:37
I want to know about so you know, get doctors get like a textbook version of diabetes. But then if you don't go into if you don't go, how is it? I guess my question is, that even the endocrinologist seems a little flummoxed by it once in a while. And why is it that no general practitioners seem to do a good job of explaining people's type two? I mean, if type two is so prevalent, like, wouldn't that be something you would just be able to, like, I can talk about type two with my eyes closed? Like, why can't they I guess, I think

Claren 31:08
a lot of it is the time constraints that doctors have on how much time they can spend with patients and the amount of education they can give patients and hear their side of things and understand why they're having trouble. Because I mean, you may have a 10 minute time slot to see a patient, you have to understand what's going on with them, what they're worried about how, and then explain to them like, this is what we're going to going to do to fix it. And this is your part, and this is my part. And then, okay, go out into the world and do this for a few months and come back and see me and there's just you can only get so much done. And I feel like you can't understand, really the the intricacies of any disease in that situation.

Scott Benner 31:52
It's just such an odd thing. Like you. Just if you hear from so many people with the same issue, it's and

Claren 31:59
they're also seeing a ton of other medical problems on any given day. So maybe, yeah, we are seeing millions of people with diabetes, but you're also seeing tons of people with every other medical condition too. So

Scott Benner 32:12
Oh, no, the the one thing that I think doesn't get enough attention is that it's like boggle almost I imagined it like that, like you're you walk into a room and you're settled and someone looks at you and you go, Okay, there's Claritin. And I don't really know who she is, but she thinks I do because I'm her doctor. So now I'm going to look at I'm going to look in the thing here, oh, try to make myself ready with it a little bit. I've got 15 minutes to talk to her. And then you walk out the door. I imagine you take a deep breath. And then you push down the boggle thing and your dice pop all over the place, you walk in the next door and you start over again. And it's just like being shook and then settled and then go and I don't know this. You know, I've brought this up a couple of times. And it like around diabetes specifically. I don't know why we do that. Instead of bringing everybody in for 15 or 20 minutes. Why don't we bring 200 people and put them in an auditorium and talk to them all at the same time. And give them the big the big picture stuff that they need in a setting where you say it once people ask their questions. And then everybody heard it instead of like, and they heard the entirety of it, instead of getting a tiny bit of like, well, here's the things I can remember to say this time. I just make sense to me. I don't if it's like a HIPAA violation problem or something, but just make sense to me like that would make

Claren 33:30
more so just convincing people to come do that, too. Oh, you

Scott Benner 33:33
think if they didn't think it was a doctor's appointment? They just wouldn't go to begin with. Awesome. Is that a burden? Like knowing that you're gonna come see, somebody's gonna come see you. And you're gonna tell them the exact thing they need to do and they're gonna walk out and just not do it? Oh, yeah. Yeah, it would weigh on me, honestly.

Claren 33:51
You're like, well, here's, I mean, at the same time, like, I don't want to eat great and exercise all the time, but I know that's what I should do. And it's just I feel like human nature.

Scott Benner 34:00
Yeah. Like, Does it almost feel like these things are gonna just happen to some people and there's nothing you can do about it? Um,

Claren 34:07
yeah, probably just if they're not willing to change their lifestyle but I mean, being a resident two is an I've been off work for maternity leave. But being a resident working 80 hours a week, eating hospital food as quickly as I can. Like, when I'm when I'm working. I don't have a great diet. I don't have time to exercise. And it's, you just do what you can. You can't you can't tell people to do something and then not do it yourself necessarily.

Scott Benner 34:36
It would be tough if you you were like you should go for a walk. And they were like, Yeah, you too. Great. A lot of fun. Oh, my goodness. So when you're in residency, can you describe like you just said 80 hours a week, but can you actually describe what what a week is like? Um,

Claren 34:54
yeah, so Monday through Friday, typically wake up at like, four 430 and go to hospital, round on your patients, check all the charts and then depending on your cases for the day operate, or go to clinic, and that typically sometimes you're done with actually doing the surgeries or clinic patients by noon, sometimes it's like 5pm. Sometimes surgeries go all through the night. So I'd say on average, leaving work at like six on a NABJ day five, if we're really lucky, and sometimes 9:10pm and then wake up the next day and do it again. And then for the first three years of residency, the way our schedule was set up is that every other weekend, we did a 24 hour shift. So that was either Friday morning to Saturday morning, and then you go home sleep Saturday and work a day shift on Sunday. So you have a small break, and then every other weekend off, or you work a 24 hour shift on Saturday, and then rest Sunday before the week restarts.

Scott Benner 35:55
I was out when you said get up at 430. I know. It's terrible. That's like That's okay. I'm good. People can figure out their own health. Yeah, oh, it's terrible. And that goes on for years. Yeah,

Claren 36:07
years. That's three years. And then the next few years that I'll finish, I'll do home call instead of doing the 24 hour shifts on the weekend. So we'll go in and round. And then if somebody comes in and needs me, I'll go back to the hospital. Does

Scott Benner 36:22
that? What am I trying to say? Does that like sorority fraternity thing exist? Like low man gets on by the person above them? The person above them? Does that exist too? Or does that not happen so much. It's

Claren 36:35
there's kind of a hierarchy. But in the program that I'm in, we try to do a really good job of getting the younger residents in or early. So yeah, they're the ones that are going to be in charge of doing like all the wound care and the things on the floor that we don't want to do. But overall, we try to, to get people in to learn how to do surgery as early as possible and share the load.

Scott Benner 36:58
What are the procedures that you all stand in the hallway like Rock Paper Scissors to try to get out of

Claren 37:05
who I'd say like draining like abscesses and things like that I don't like to do that. made

Scott Benner 37:12
me upset when you just said okay. Yeah, like just Well, anybody is almost like what you would you try to shift to get out of something? Would you like does it

Claren 37:20
turn out? No, no one's got to do it. So it's just whoever's available and like you said, usually lowest on the totem pole.

Scott Benner 37:25
Yeah, that's that's gotta be. Yeah, that's gotta be upset.

Claren 37:29
You gotta learn how to do it. So it is what it is.

Scott Benner 37:31
Do you ever hear that episode of the show called butthole? Adjacent?

Claren 37:34
I think so. Yeah.

Scott Benner 37:37
That wasn't like Hans Basal. Yes, basically just had a that's something like that, that just like, came apart and like exploded. And I was like, Oh, my God, that's absolutely crazy. But it's not crazy to you, right? It's just something you see, like popping,

Claren 37:52
that's just something that I might do on a Tuesday, Tuesday. That's, we

Scott Benner 37:56
call that Tuesday, or, Oh, my God, I just saw, I don't know what happened. What the Chinese government is trying to do to me or whoever, but the TIC tock algorithm has decided that I want to see people with feet that look like rocks underneath of it be exfoliated. And I just want to say, Oh, my God, the algorithm. I don't want to see that. And I don't know where you got that idea from?

Claren 38:18
It's because you were looking at the Pumicestone. You think

Scott Benner 38:21
it got me that fast?

Claren 38:22
That was really fast.

Scott Benner 38:23
I just like I'm watching it and all that can go through my head. Is that something that I'm wondering if it goes through your head? How did we let it get like this? You wonder that every day?

Claren 38:39
Sometimes? Yeah, yeah. Sometimes I

Scott Benner 38:41
just it seems baffling, like without, like, description, like, How could you let the bottom of your foot look like a rock? And there's, it's just, it's fascinating, like,

Claren 38:53
do I mean it's pretty gross, but like we have patients come in with really nasty feet wounds with maggots on them. So it's like, how do you not notice there's maggots on your foot? But it happens.

Scott Benner 39:05
Like yeah, how do you make it to the hospital with the maggot? Right, right? Yeah, right. And they're not like, it's not like they have neuropathy, and they can't feel it or something like that. It's just, typically they do Oh, typically they do. Okay,

Claren 39:15
if it's that bad. Why do you think you at least look, I don't know, wash it

Scott Benner 39:20
off, maybe for like, if I if I was going to show you any appendage at all. I would make sure it was clean and presentable before I brought it to you. But that's not the case either, is it? Yeah.

Claren 39:31
And people who have are underserved and don't have access to health care, that's a lot of the issues too. Okay. So you can't always fix problems if you don't have the resources to do so. Yeah,

Scott Benner 39:43
I was talking to a hygienist. This is a dental hygienist. And she said the number of people who come here with their teeth are dirty, because they're like, well, you're going to clean them so why would I brush Why would I brush them?

Claren 39:56
Oh my gosh, yeah. I hate going to the dentist. If Have like had a snack in the car on like, you're gonna think I'm dirty? Oh my No, I

Scott Benner 40:03
went to get like a crowns on one day. And I walked in I said, Hey, I'm very sorry. But I need I realized I was going to be like nom and wouldn't be able to eat afterwards. So I need like, I need some floss and a toothbrush before I can come in. Like I'm not I'm not going to like just go in there go like, Hey, could you dig that out of there for me like? Ridiculous. I mean, your your points? Listen, your point about having access is good. But I don't know how much access you have to have to wash your foot before you show it to somebody. I know. Yeah, that's something

Claren 40:34
that's not not always an excuse. But there are certain cases where it's just

Scott Benner 40:38
automatic problem. Yeah. So you in your note to me, you, you said that there's stigma surrounding diabetes within the medical community, I wondered about that.

Claren 40:49
I should have read that note before I logged on to this call. But um, so just in terms of like, instead of people who come in needing like toes amputated, there's always the stigma of like, well, they didn't take care of themselves. And this is or even the things like obesity, and it's more of a type two issue. But it's just like, can you not control your diabetes enough to prevent these complications, people don't understand how difficult it is to all day long keep your numbers within X and Y points. And people just assume because I have this pump and this Dexcom that I strap it on, and it controls everything for me. And it's just not the case, as you well know. But I'd say even medical providers, if they're not seeing this on a daily basis, like we talked about, then they have no clue, the the, the worries and the anxiety and just the effort that goes into preventing those complications, and you may not be able to so there's stigma that goes with that. And then just the amount of effort, like I said, they just don't realize that this is a 24/7 disease. And it's different for type one and type two, but the outcomes can be the same. And people may not realize that there is such a difference in type one and type two.

Scott Benner 42:06
Do you think that that stigma leads doctors to unfairly kind of in the back of their mind, assess people while they're talking to them? Like, do you think they can look at you as

Claren 42:18
not only some people? I wouldn't? I'd say it depends on what the situation is. But it depends also like on the numbers you see, because you say you have a patient come in and their blood sugar's 400. And it's like, you automatically assume this is an uncontrolled diabetic person. But it may just be that they're sick, and they've got, they're dehydrated, and they've got six other things that are contributing to this number of 400. And unless you sit and talk with the patient, you're not going to be able to fully understand that. So maybe you walk in, and that's your bias that, yeah, they're probably an uncontrolled diabetic. But that may not be the case at all.

Scott Benner 42:54
So if I'm an adult, and I look like I'm a little overweight, and I show up with a high blood sugar, somebody's gonna think type two diabetes right away. Probably yeah. And II and even because I hear these stories from people, where they're sitting in that moment, and they say, Listen, my brother's got type one, or my mom does, or there's a ton of autoimmune in my family, like, Are you sure this couldn't be type one? And they go, No, couldn't be. And it always ends up being, you know, when I hear the stories, because, of course, that's who I hear from mostly. But it's just just kind of, I don't know, it's interesting, because you paint an equal picture of people who are taxed the old beyond reasonability, about their time and their energy they are getting, you know, I guess a bit of information on so many different diseases, like, what's that saying about doctors, like they have a little bit of information about a lot of things. And then we like, I was most struck by thinking about being with my mom one day early in the hospital. And she's like, I don't know where the doctor is. They said, I don't know where the doctor is, it was early in the morning, and I thought, Oh, they were at home trying to sleep. Right, like trying to get up enough energy to come do this thing again for 12 hours. And it's just interesting that nobody sees each other says, scenario situation.

Claren 44:14
Another thing like that you learned in medical school. So like you say, an overweight adult coming in with high blood sugar. 82. Like, if you hear hoofbeats think, don't think it's a zebra, like it's more likely to be a horse, it's not going to be this Safari creature, it's going to be the horse. So you think most likely common things are common. This is going to be type two diabetes. So I think that's just kind of part of the algorithm based learning that a lot of medicine is especially in your training years is like okay if this than this, and you have to really get experience and patient perspectives and just kind of know that yes, this can happen, even though it's less common, but that's just what medicine teaches us. Common things are common. And then if that's not the answer, then you think more of the the zebra plus

Scott Benner 45:06
it would be, it wouldn't be like a reasonable thing to start just like pontificating about, oh, it could be this or this or like, it's upsetting to another person, actually, do you know that I'm doing the math in the last seven days? If you hear hoofbeats, it's probably a horse, not a zebra. That's the second time I've heard that. Interesting, because I was with a, because when I spoke last weekend, I was there with somebody who has a medical background, and they were trying to trying to describe the similar thing that you just said, I was like, wow, they really do tell them that they do. I always think about the people who, like the zebras at home, who were just like, nobody's listening to me. Right. You know, they all think I'm a horse. Anyway, that's interesting. So okay, so I understand how the stigma could lead to, like, people jumping to conclusions that makes complete sense to me. Is there a I mean, you're in a unique position, right? You're, you're at the coming to towards the end of your of your residency? Is there at least things that we talked about? Is this just as good as it gets? Or are there ways to fix this? Like, do you? Do you see a way like using diabetes, specifically, where doctors could understand diabetes better? Or would it? Is it just too big of a mountain to climb?

Claren 46:25
I think, one, it's, it is a very big mountain to climb. And two, there are so many different ways we can treat diabetes, and so many different standards that people have for diabetes, like we talked about, like 7%. And below is what people consider, okay. And that's, like you say, is the don't die number like we want to prevent lows more than we want to prevent highs. But it just kind of depends on can you reach that many people effect to be able to make them effectively manage their diabetes, I don't know it with the time constraints that you have in visits or within certain I'm like losing my train of thought, you know, the time constraints you have within visits and in the that specific person's scenario. So what can we teach this person today? That I can help them as with as a doctor is different than what can they they implement on their daily routine? So there's a difference, I think in what a doctor can tell you and what you can actually do? And then the question is, can you get people to implement that to actually make a difference? I don't know.

Scott Benner 47:44
So then the thing that I say a lot on here is ends up being very right, I guess, which is you are really in charge of your own health. And yeah, you can go get an answer from somebody, or they can run a test for you, you don't have access to or change your prescription you don't have access to but in the end, like I usually tell people, when you go into a doctor's office, you have to remember that you are the only one who ultimately cares about how well you are like, like, it's not that the doctor doesn't care, but you're gonna leave and they're not gonna think about you again. And, you know, I just I learned that watching my mom, I realized how much my mom believed that doctor just knew who she was. And, you know, I was the one looking out the hall watching them, like pour through papers, trying to figure out who they were about to go talk to. And you know, and it just, it's up to you like your health. I mean, it sounds obvious, right? But in a, in a society where you believe, for the most part, because when you're growing up everything that happens to you, for most people, everything that happens to you gets fixed. Didn't you mean? Like, you get a sore throat and they give you a pill and your throat isn't sore anymore? And, you know, like, if that's the expectation, like that kind of light switch idea, like, you know, like you said, like, I want to do things I can fix like, you show up sick you leave, you're not sick anymore. But that's not most things, not when once you find serious illnesses, those are not how they work. Yeah, yeah. And everybody has an expectation of health to no matter, no matter the amount of effort they put into their own health. Everyone. Exactly. Everyone expects it back. Right? Like

Claren 49:22
are they expect to be able to Google something and they say, This is what I think I need. And that's a whole nother topic of conversation.

Scott Benner 49:32
I want some akinesia. And I would like I want an essential oil. I'm gonna put on a cotton ball and put it under my pillow and I think I'm going to be fine after that. Right. And, and when it's not that, you're saying that basically the things that can be impacted by diet or exercise or effort ends up being just something. If you tell people that and then it's a coin flip if they do it or not. Right. Yeah. It really has to take

Claren 49:58
in terms of Diaby It has to it has to take the person wanting to make that difference. Having the support and the resources to do so, like

Scott Benner 50:06
something shocking almost has to happen. Yeah, yeah. What happens if you're shocking thing is the only is the only warning you were gonna get to. Right. Yeah. Actually

Claren 50:17
on a kind of a related note. It's kind of I'm thinking I mentioned that email I sent you as a, I guess, probably a year and a half ago now. I had like routine labs, I was doing really good with blood sugar's everything. I think my agency was like in the mid fives, and I was so proud of getting that number back. And then I got the rest of my labs back the next day because my doctor called me and he was like, hey, like your kidney numbers are elevated, like, just want to let you know, I think it was like the equivalent of like, stage two kidney disease is the the numbers that I saw. And I was like, What are you talking about? Like, I've been healthy for me. Yeah, I've had 18 years, but I've been healthy. And I don't know what to do about this like it. That'd be a fluke, can we recheck them and they were still elevated? And I was like, this is okay. This is like eye opening, like, am I having kidney problems as a 29 year old. And we had talked to my husband and I had talked about having kids at some point, but we didn't know how to do that with being in residency and having diabetes with a difficult pregnancy that comes with diabetes. And so I went to see a nephrologist. Basically, thankfully, it ended up being just like an acute kidney injury for me not drinking enough water and staying hydrated while I was working. It was really, like you said, a shocking thing that I was like, okay, yeah, I am susceptible to kidney damage, I am susceptible to these long term complications. And that's what made us to decide to go ahead and I put my training on hold for what ended up being a whole year and decided to try to get pregnant, we magically got pregnant with twins, which was double what I bargained for. But now it's been really good overall. And it was something that I prioritized. And now I have about six weeks left before I go back to work. So

Scott Benner 52:07
Wow. So you actually had that feeling where? Okay, this wasn't the case this time. But I'm so hit with the reality of the fact that it could have been like, I'm gonna make these babies right now. Yeah, that makes sense. To me.

Claren 52:20
That's like one thing we really wanted in life. And if I would have let my job come in front of that, actually, an infertility is a really big deal. And actually, women physicians are much have a much higher likelihood of having infertility issues. And I was coming up on 30. I was like, I think we got to do it now. So we did.

Scott Benner 52:42
Was that a hard decision to make? I mean, you were so close to the Yes. Oh,

Claren 52:47
yeah. And that pregnancy itself was was very difficult. And the the main reason you have so many blood sugar issues is the hormone fluctuations. And that comes from the placenta. And with my twins I had to placentas. So it was like, double the difficulty. By the end, I probably take her before I was pregnant for I took like 35 units of insulin a day. And I was taking like, 130 Oh, by the end of it. Wow.

Scott Benner 53:14
Did you make the babies the way? They were intended? Or did you? Yes, yeah. And you got twins.

Claren 53:20
And we got twins.

Scott Benner 53:22
She's very happy about that. I would have been like, oh,

Claren 53:26
we were just shocked. No, we're happy most of the time. But it's been. It's been very difficult. And we live eight hours away from our closest family.

Scott Benner 53:35
I'm just thinking that if you're lucky, because I'm hearing Your husband's a doctor, too. Oh, no, no. Okay. I felt like you said residency like we were both in it, but you just

Claren 53:45
kind of does feel like we're both in to deal with me, too.

Scott Benner 53:49
So just about the time you get on paying for your degree, you should be able to pay for two kids to go to college at the same time. Yes,

Claren 53:54
yes. I will probably still be paying for my degree. That'd be great to get a podcast,

Scott Benner 53:58
because that helped me with my daughter's.

Claren 54:01
Yeah. Well, all my free time. Yeah,

Scott Benner 54:04
by the way, too many people have podcasts. It's enough. Okay, like yeah, like I don't plan on making it. We all got it covered. Now, I wasn't talking to you. I talked to the people listening case they get like a wild hair up. They're like I'm gonna make I just thought it's good. I gotta cover you're fine. I mean, how many people I got to fight with over this podcast thing, but no, that's okay. So I do want to hear about the pregnancy. Obviously. I got a little lost asking about your job, but yeah, so you said it was difficult. It was it? He started the beginning. Easy to get pregnant.

Claren 54:33
Yes. What was easy for him to apparently What

Scott Benner 54:36
do you mean? Oh, I thought you meant to easy like you only got to try once, but we did only try once. Oh, your husband must have been pissed about that. Yeah. Maybe you too. I don't know. Maybe he's great at it. And you were like, oh, so

Claren 54:50
Well, he's like, he's a very like athletic he's 662 50 big guy and he was kept telling me like I'm gonna have this NFL playing. So I'm like, going to be going to be the best. You know, I'm going to be this sports dad. And we go and we find out that we're having twins. And they're both girls. Yeah. He's got two little princesses now to us. He's gonna turn them into college golfers. That's his now that's his plan. That's his new goal. Yeah,

Scott Benner 55:18
tell him I tell him I watch the kid play college sports. And honestly, I don't even know if I would tell you to do it. I can't. I can't even wrap my head around whether it's a good idea or not yet.

Claren 55:28
Well, it's just so they can get scholarships because he thinks that as long as they're decent at golf, and women, then they can get a scholarship.

Scott Benner 55:34
I don't think he's wrong. I still think he's wrong. Yeah, my son saved a fair amount of money playing baseball. So but the rest of it's just like, I might have given it all away. And I don't know the stuff we did to get them to that point, like, yeah, that's what will end up happening is, trust me the money you save on college, you'll have spent teaching them how to play golf. And well, he also wants an excuse to go golfing. Yeah, that's what I was assuming. Yeah. Well, maybe there'll be really tall. I mean, how tall see? Six, six. How tall are you? Five, three. Well, that must be hilarious. Hilarious. Did you see the first tall guy you dated? Oh,

Claren 56:11
yeah. And I actually I hit on him at a bar. And apparently, and I was a little tipsy at the time, just enough to where I was like fun. And went over to him and I said, Hey, Tomboy, do you like pizza? And we went and got pizza that night and ended up just like talking for hours. And then he was on family vacation, visiting his family in Florida where I lived. And the next day, he's like, Hey, we exchanged numbers. He's like, you want to come over and like watch football at my parents condo? Whatever. And I was like, You know what, this goes against everything. I know. But sure, let's let's do it. So I went over there and his parents had gone to a movie became home or League. So I met his parents the next day. And then we dated long distance, and six months later moved together to start residency. And now we're married and have twins. Oh, that's

Scott Benner 57:02
crazy. You met his parents? You were wearing your pants when that happened, right? Oh, yeah. By the way, you you didn't the episode. Wearing my pants? No. Hey, Tallboy.

Claren 57:12
Hey, Tomboy. Do you like pizza? Yeah,

Scott Benner 57:15
that's what I'm going with. Unless you come up with something else. I really liked like that. That's just like, I don't. I mean, I always say to people, I dated girls. You're like your height. My whole my the whole time. I was young. And then I meet my wife one day, and she's like, my height. And, and there are times now as an adult, I'll go do like events and stuff. And people like, by the way, I think it's very lovely that you want to take pictures, but I'm not very comfortable with how I photograph people. Like take a picture of these. I'm doing that all the time. And I'm standing next to women who are shorter again. And I have this feeling I'm like, Oh, this is what my life would have been like had I not found a tall girl to marry. And like I feel tall. And I never feel tall in my life. And I was like this what will happen? Your husband must feel like a giant is my point. Right?

Claren 58:09
Especially holding these babies. Oh my gosh, like they're so small. Also massive 250. Yeah, about 250

Scott Benner 58:17
His hands like the size of your face. Yeah, probably. Oh, my gosh, that's amazing. Well, that's very cool. So you so anyway, you get knocked up. And then I said anyway, but you get pregnant really quickly, you get pregnant really quickly. And then what becomes difficult about the pregnancy, just

Claren 58:36
the constant shifts in how to manage blood sugar, because you know, they want ideally a blood sugar less than 120. And above 65. Really, they they say it's okay to be under 140 after meals. But that doesn't take into account that you're constantly changing insulin doses. So I would go probably every two days, every three days, I was making an adjustment on either changing my basil changing the carb ratio, or changing a correction ratio or something like that. And I basically just did it myself. For the eight months I was pregnant. And it was certain foods would impact it differently. And it was just constant paying attention. And I hadn't been doing that as tightly as I could have, because I'm on the control IQ with tandem and I do it in sleep mode. And it does a pretty good job of keeping me in range. And I basically was able to stay on that for the first trimester. And then by the end of the first trimester, I was having to go back to the manual pump mode because I just wasn't able to keep low enough numbers with the loop technology with tandem. How

Scott Benner 59:44
How, how frequently did you end up giving yourself an amount of insulin you're like, Oh, God, that was too much.

Claren 59:51
I don't think the too much was an issue. It was mostly not enough. Because as as I went on, it was just I became more carb resistant and that was the main issue. And I we had like an exercise bike at home and my husband always tried to give me credit for it. He's like, if your blood sugar was like skyrocketing middle the night like you would get out of bed and go ride that bike until you could get it down. Just because I felt that was another thing that brought me new anxiety was I just felt like I was hurting these babies, even though retrospectively they were totally fine. And I I know that I was being silly, but pregnancy hormones can get the best of you. Oh, yes,

Scott Benner 1:00:27
he's giving you credit for it. And you're being drugged out of the bed by your, by your hormones, right? You're not even like, like I have to go. And that's something I actually felt like. Like, that felt nice, because even though it sounds like you were tortured by the idea of it was nice, because I thought I bet you she wouldn't have done that for herself. I bet if you weren't pregnant, you wouldn't have jumped out of bed. And then like, I'll go for a walk to bring my blood sugar down for me. Right? But you would do it for them. Yeah, that's so human. I get such a constant through all of these conversations that I've had, and people that I've met, like, but you can't get anybody to do anything for themselves. But you put somebody else in the way of it. And then people jump right to that become heroes. It's interesting. So the biggest problem is just the insulin fluctuation more and more and more. How soon they say I hear people say I delivered the placenta, and it all went back. Is that about how it went?

Claren 1:01:25
Yes, I took I think it was like 128 units of insulin on the last day I was pregnant. And then the first day I was not pregnant. I took six units. Oh, my gosh, that's correct. Crazy. And I just put the pump back in the control mode. So it would suspend basil if I was gonna go low. And it had given me a total of like six units over 24 hours.

Scott Benner 1:01:46
Wow, when you tried to use Control IQ during the first trimester did you have to expand like the max, Basal and Max Bolus number so it could work? I did.

Claren 1:01:55
And I've probably one of the Facebook pages that like gives you all the tips on how to keep your number lower on the control IQ. So I was already kind of doing that in preparation to get pregnant. That it was, it was a lot of tweaking. Yeah, I don't even know what I did. At this point in time. I just knew that I like kept a little journal and was like, okay, my blood sugar was high at this time a day, like two or three days in a row time to do more basil.

Scott Benner 1:02:22
So so a nine month science experiment, you're not sure what you're going to be working on every day when you wake up, right? Yeah, just stay home for the whole nine months.

Claren 1:02:31
I was working through the majority of first trimester just to finish out the year of work. And then I was home for probably three to four months, maybe up to five months. And I delivered them at almost 37 weeks.

Scott Benner 1:02:49
C section natural. Yeah, C section. I was gonna say a lot of babies. How much did they

Claren 1:02:55
pay? Were five pounds, eight ounces and five pounds four ounces.

Scott Benner 1:02:58
Lovely. Did you name them after me any chance? No, I did not know Don't worry about somebody will wander.

Claren 1:03:07
But they're healthy and didn't need to go to the NICU or anything like that. They did have some one of them had issues with low blood sugar for about 24 hours. And that resolved. So how

Scott Benner 1:03:19
long did it take you till you're worried about whether they'll have diabetes one day? Oh,

Claren 1:03:23
I was worried about that. I'm like the time I got pregnant. But that's right now I'm trying to I technically am pumping that bread giving them breast milk. They were because they were preemies. And I don't know what issues exactly brought this about. But they were never really able to latch to breastfeed directly. So I exclusively pump breast milk for them, which is about four hours of my day I spend attached to a pump. Ridiculous, so that's lovely.

Scott Benner 1:03:51
Oh my gosh. Because there's two of them. Yeah, it's

Claren 1:03:55
so much. And they drink. I think about 60 ounces of milk a day between the two of them if

Scott Benner 1:04:02
you told him to eat a lot of you said, Look, why not? 30?

Claren 1:04:06
Yeah, well, that's that's like the high end of normal for one babies. 30. So I'd have I have plenty of milk for one baby that just because there's like that one study that shows the babies who have breast milk have a decreased risk of type one diabetes. And I know that's like one specific population and one specific scenario but in my head if I can do this for them, and that gives me any chance, then that's what I'm gonna do.

Scott Benner 1:04:32
How long do you think you'll do this for?

Claren 1:04:33
I'll go back to work when they're about six months old. So at least six months and then I'll try to keep it up at work. And the end goal would be a year but we'll see how

Scott Benner 1:04:43
it goes. Wow. If you do that for a year, I'll send you an award of some sort. Yeah, yeah. It sounds like your nipples need a break is what you need. Yeah.

Claren 1:04:53
They need an award. Exactly.

Scott Benner 1:04:56
Yeah. You know, I only bring this up because like Just getting ready next week to put up an episode about it. It's 26 year old girl came on, she's type one, she had a baby. And five, six months after she had the baby, like, you know, she's like, I know, people told me about the baby blues, but she got real, like serious postpartum. And I was wondering how you prepare yourself for like looking for them,

Claren 1:05:22
I think it's gonna be really hard when I go back to work, because I have been home with them. So I see them all day, every day, which part of me is like, it's going to be nice to go back to being like a real functional adult in the world. But the other part is, I know, I'm really gonna miss them. So I have to, like you said, just kind of take this in, as I'm here and home with them and prepare myself for the, to let myself feel like I'm setting an example for them. Like, okay, you can be a mom and a surgeon and have diabetes and do all these other things. And it's ultimately going to be an example for my babies to grow up and they can do whatever they want to do.

Scott Benner 1:06:05
On the off chance they can't become professional golfers. Right? Yes. Although it is obviously gonna happen. I'm just telling you, if they're half as tall as your husband, they've got a great shot. Yeah. That's really something. Yeah, her story was just, it didn't, it came on slowly. It started as she said, there was this moment, like, your episode is gonna come out after hers. And I don't know at this moment, as I'm talking about, I don't know what it's going to be called yet. But you should go listen to it. Because she had this. She walked away from the baby one time and the baby just got a bug bite. And that like simple thought of like, I left the baby alone, and it got hit by a bug by the way, the bug was fine. It didn't hurt the baby at all right? It just set it sent her cascading down, like a rabbit hole of I can't let the baby alone, something's gonna happen like and then the thoughts got intrusive, and she couldn't get away from them. And by the end, she she said the first serious thought she had was, I'll just like 20 minutes, she started getting the idea that her family would be better off without her. And that she was failing the baby and that all this stuff was happening. And I mean, it's just heartbreaking to listen, she's fine. She's fine now. And she said that. She said she was thinking through just waiting for 20 minutes before her husband got home and just putting the baby in the crib. Because she's like, I know that baby would be okay for 20 minutes and then just leaving. And then her husband was a police officer. And she said one day she has no idea how it happened. But she found herself standing next to the the piece of furniture that he keeps his weapons and like considering considering killing yourself. Like, out of nowhere. And then she just kind of like obviously didn't do it. And then she was like, oh my god, that was that was bizarre. And then she started looking for help. But she she said looking backwards that she had. She's like I in hindsight, there was plenty of time I should have known I was in trouble. And she's like, I just couldn't. Like it didn't feel like depression, it felt like I was failing the baby. So I was just terrible. Like, and she's 26. And you know, like it's so it's just crazy. Anyway, be careful. I have a soft spot for this this week. So please, yeah, I don't want to hear it. Oh, well,

Claren 1:08:24
and my husband's wonderful and he's very good about communication and checking in with with me and making sure I'm good. So I have a wonderful support system.

Scott Benner 1:08:33
And if diabetes comes for the girls, he can just scare it away. Is he one of those big gentle guys where if I bumped into him in the street when I find myself apologizing to him immediately when I saw

Claren 1:08:44
he's a big softy lover? I mean, he looks like he could be intimidating. Yeah,

Scott Benner 1:08:49
I have I have a brother in law that like, he just he looks like he could grab you by your face and just like move you. And like I said he's the nicest guy get on me. So. Alright, I want to ask you at this point, if there's anything that we haven't spoken about that you wanted to?

Claren 1:09:07
I don't think so. I think we kind of hit the main things.

Scott Benner 1:09:09
We did it. Because you you alluded to an email and I have to admit, I was like, I don't remember that email.

Claren 1:09:17
I was just like the initial thing about like, Oh, tell me about you coming on the podcast. Oh, cool. But I I forgot that that was like six months ago now. So

Scott Benner 1:09:24
can I ask a question of you? Which is a weird thing to say because I think I've been doing that the whole time. But you said a couple of things throughout the show that make me feel like you listen to this. You do is it how is it listening to this podcast and being a doctor at the same time?

Claren 1:09:40
I think they're just they're two separate things in my head and I listened to it one for just like people's stories. I did listen to all like the pro tips and all that probably two three years ago at that this point in time. But now it's just kind of something I'll listen to to hear about other people's stories and Like, like you said, I listen to this, the girl that dealt with the postpartum anxiety and depression and just be able to relate to that. So I see it more as like a community than from a medical perspective, I feel like the medical stuff, I've kind of figured that out to what works for me at this point in time. And some of that didn't come from the podcast, but it's more of just I like to hear how other people are living and how they're making it. So

Scott Benner 1:10:28
you can kind of leave your white coat at the door to listen to it. Is that the vibe? I think so. Yeah, because there was a moment I said something very, like an hour ago. And there was like, it wasn't harsh, but there was a second where you like took up arms for doctors, I don't remember what the context what the context was anymore. And, and it was very reasonable what you said, and I agree with you even. But I'm, you know, if I'm coming from a perspective, on this side, I'm usually coming from the perspective of the type one when I'm talking, like trying to, like, stick up for them. And I just heard from doctors like that they don't they don't they think of it as like Doctor bashing. And yeah, you know, and I, I'm like, I don't mean, this, just people's experiences, you know, what I mean? And what I think is common sense responses to as so. But I understand there's

Claren 1:11:15
also a difference in what how a doctor interacts with the patient and the way they perceive the interaction and how a patient perceives the interaction with the doctor. So sometimes a doctor may tell you, you should do this, this and this, and the patient hears it one way versus the dark, which is different than the doctor hears it. So unfortunately, I do think a lot of medicine is practiced defensively, just because you have to you have to protect yourself from a legal standpoint, and you have to follow the criteria for these are the numbers that keep people healthy, long term and things like that. So there is a lot of algorithms based things that come with it. And then the personal side of it can be interpreted, I think, from one perspective or the other. So that's

Scott Benner 1:12:02
cool. I think that that's why sometimes when you suggest something to a doctor, they go Yeah, sure. But they wouldn't have suggested it to you like now that you brought it up. That's fine. I couldn't say it. But now that you said it, sure, we can give you Synthroid for a 2.5, TSH, no problem, but I wasn't gonna suggest it. So

Claren 1:12:23
go ahead. I'm sorry. That's I was just agreeing.

Scott Benner 1:12:26
Oh, Oh, perfect. I love that. By the way, that was sarcasm, which is just between you and I, because of what we talked about before we started recording. Well, I I really do genuinely appreciate you doing this. And congratulations on being 30 and the babies. And I hope it's not too hard for you when you go back to work. I

Claren 1:12:46
did. I do have one really weird thing that happened to me while I was pregnant, that this happened to anybody else. But it was the day before my 30th birthday, driving down the road and listening to music in my car. And then I realized I can't hear very well out of one of my ears. And I texted one of my friends who works in en ti and I was like, hey, is this like a pregnancy thing? Like, is this normal? And she was like, well, it can be related to pregnancy, but it's pretty rare. Can also be XYZ other thing is you should go see an end like urgently because you need to treat it if this is what it is. So I texted a local EMT and he's like, sure come in tomorrow and go in and I've realized that I'm missing like 75% of the hearing in my right ear. And I was like, what's going on? Like, is this a pregnancy thing? Is this a hormone thing? And he's like, Well, maybe but basically what they did is they treated it by putting a steroid injection into my eardrum. I had that done twice. And my hearing did not come back. So the ultimate thing we've come up with is it's either related to pregnancy, it can be an autoimmune thing. It's called sensory neural hearing loss. Or it could just been like a virus that got my ear or just idiopathic and nobody really knows why. So that's another thing the baby stuck for me was the ability to hear out of my right ear and

Scott Benner 1:14:13
the comfort of your nipples. Yeah, I hate to say this, but did they image your brain?

Claren 1:14:19
They have not but it's pretty. I guess I shouldn't say common but this is the only symptom I'm having. I don't have any other symptoms. And I had a brain MRI actually, when I was having the weird grave system symptoms, which was normal. So again, they discussed it No, I mean, I had the same thought as you They discussed it but they're like yeah, it's just this happens it can be something as simple as a virus. And if I if I have any other issues I'm sure I'll follow that but for now I'm okay and too busy to think about

Scott Benner 1:14:53
you know, it's funny how my I've such a strange life. I come to realize like you said that and I was like like two weeks ago I ever caught up with a lady who had a benign brain tumor, and she couldn't hear anymore in one year. And like that's, that's like what popped into my head like, I don't think I would have thought that had I not ever spoken to her obviously not a doctor. But that's Oh, that's crazy. So 75% loss, what's the impact on your day? I'm

Claren 1:15:18
mostly used to it now. But if I'm in a room with like multiple people, I had a really hard time focusing on which one person's talking.

Scott Benner 1:15:26
Any chance that comes back? I had my hearing checked

Claren 1:15:29
about a month ago, and it was the same. So I doubt it. I'm sorry. It's just annoying. It's not that big of a deal. Yeah, well, that but 10 years

Scott Benner 1:15:38
now, and the kids are acting crazy. You can be like, I am partially deaf in my one year because of you. Now sit down. It's not good parenting, but you'll do it eventually. What kind of a parent do you think you want to be?

Claren 1:15:52
We want I wanted to know, their loved but I want them to also be able to follow the rules and just like be respectful of other people and want to, to pursue whatever interests they have. I guess I should say, Nice.

Scott Benner 1:16:09
That's lovely. I just find the kids knowing that they've got their back is a big part of it. Oh, absolutely. Not even the thing you have to say out loud, really? I mean, you can and you should but I mean, just that knowledge of like, I can take a step. And if it doesn't go right, it's okay. Like it's okay to be kind of adventurous and bold and stuff like that.

Claren 1:16:30
My husband actually says that quite a bit. That's the one thing he wants for them is to know that for them to know that he's always he's always gonna be there to love them. And no matter what they do, yeah,

Scott Benner 1:16:41
I definitely want to stay alive long enough to see the first boy that comes to the door to pick up one of your daughters. And that mountain opens the door. ruins that kids night. Absolutely. Hello, sir. I you know, I don't even want to kick her out of a mark. Nevermind. I'm just tell her goodbye. I'm gonna go now. That's really something good for you. Well, congratulations. It's, uh, I mean, you know, he got through a lot to, to have them. And and I mean, just the idea of getting through medical school. Like, I don't know how anybody's a doctor. Yeah, I mean, honestly, like, I don't understand why, like, after you start telling me about, I mean, not the bummed me out. But I'm sure you're obviously already aware of this. A friend of mine said physician like malpractice insurance alone, I don't know what you're doing. That's so expensive. And yet, and then you know, all the all the things you've just kind of like detailed about why this could be you banging your head against the wall for the next 30 years and trying to help help people and it's just at the time, I just I was having a conversation today. And all above anybody out, but a friend passed away, I was at a memorial today. And a lot of the boys that my son played baseball with in college were there. And my son can't be there because he's out of state. So I'm sitting and getting back in touch with all the kids and talking to them again. And the one is like, I don't know what to do. Like, there's just, he wants to work in mental health. And he's got a job already in that space, which he thinks is going to help him get into grad school. But it's like, I might want to get a doctorate in this. And a sec, I think I might need to to do the thing I want to do, but I won't be in the real world until my early 30s. If I do that. And he's just like, I'm watching him go through it in his mind. He's like, I just don't know if I want to give my 20s away. And I can't tell he's like, maybe I should just get a master's and just go a different direction. And like he didn't. He's a bright, lovely kid. And he just doesn't know what to do. You know? Yeah. It's a lot of time as my point. Like it is

Claren 1:18:48
a lot of time. And then I'm still not done. And I'm 30. And yeah, there'll be a few more years from now.

Scott Benner 1:18:54
And hundreds of 1000s of dollars in loans. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, but all sounds fair. Oh, my gosh, there's gotta be a better way than that. Right? For sure. All right. Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate Can you hold on one sec. You? Oh, no, it's my fault. My pleasure. Can you hang on one second for me? Sure.

Let's thank CLARIN let's thank Dexcom let's thank ag one drink, ag one.com/juice box, dexcom.com/juice box and of course clarity for coming on the show and sharing her story with us. Don't forget to check out the private Facebook group Juicebox Podcast type one diabetes. We're coming up on 44,000 members. You could be one of them. And please, please, please, Apple podcast listeners. Open up the app. Go into the library. Click on Juicebox Podcast up in the top right corner click on the three dots, hit settings. Go down to the download stuff choose download all episodes. You are going to save my big If you do that and save your podcast thank you so much for listening I'll be back soon with another episode of The Juicebox Podcast

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#1075 Kasey at the Bat

Kasey has LADA diabetes and an interesting job.

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DISCLAIMER: This text is the output of AI based transcribing from an audio recording. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors and should not be treated as an authoritative record. Nothing that you read here constitutes advice medical or otherwise. Always consult with a healthcare professional before making changes to a healthcare plan.

Scott Benner 0:00
Hello friends, and welcome to episode 1075 of the Juicebox Podcast

Okay, so Casey has been living with LADA for a couple of years. She's recently switched from MDI to Omni pod five. We talked about gut health, and that she may have gastroparesis. While you're listening, please remember that nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise, always consult a physician before making any changes to your health care plan. We're becoming bold with insulin. Would you like to save 40% off of sheets, towels and other comfortable things, go to cozy earth.com and use the offer code juice box at checkout. When you make your first purchase of ag one at drink, ag one.com/juice box you'll get five free travel packs, and a year supply of vitamin D. And don't forget to check out the private Facebook group Juicebox Podcast type one diabetes. This one is not going to have any ads. But there will be at the very end of the recording information about how you can get started with better help if you're looking for online therapy. Last thing before we get going, if you're an apple podcast user, there has been a recent update to the operating system that may have changed your downloads and is stopping you from getting the podcast, go to the show in Apple podcasts. The settings you get to by touching the three little dots in the top right corner. Then you choose Settings. Go to downloads, touch automatic download and choose all new episodes. Hi,

Kasey 2:06
my name is Casey and I live in the Midwest. And I work as a content creator for a healthcare system. And I've been living with Lata for about a year and a half, almost two years now.

Scott Benner 2:25
No kidding. Almost two years. Yeah,

Kasey 2:27
almost two years, two years in August. Casey,

Scott Benner 2:31
I'm sorry to do this to you immediately. But I have to TechStars in a better blood sugar very quickly. That's fine. That's a little lower than I'm comfortable with the thing. Go for it. Second. She hasn't eaten anything recently. She was not particularly high before. I guess for context, since we're talking about her blood sugar's 50. Looks like the algorithm stopped it. And now we get to give people a little back room. I am going to check her location. Alright, so she's in class. That right? Does anybody else talk their kid with like, where's my iPhone and stuff like that? I do.

Kasey 3:21
My parents wish they could. Yeah.

Scott Benner 3:22
Okay, so I see where she is. So I am now I put she's in class

just send her a text and be cool. Because like I said, it looks like the algorithm looks like loops. All this coming about. No kidding. It looks like glue saw this coming an hour ago. And has been cutting her basil for almost an hour and 15 minutes. And she still got it stopped. Looks like it's stopped here. Like I'm looking at the Dexcom graph inferring from a don't think she's gonna get any lower. But I'm gonna get another reading in a minute. And now I'm walking the line between hassling her and making sure she's okay. So send a little text. I'm sure she's already done something about it. We had a conversation she and I this weekend where I said, Hey, if I have to text you about your blood sugar, I said, you don't answer and they don't answer again, like send a third text. Could you not respond? Stop?

Kasey 4:32
Just let me know you got it. Yeah. And she's like, well,

Scott Benner 4:34
I'm taking care of it and you're texting. And I was like, Well, I don't know about that part of it because I'm here. And I was like, please try to put yourself in my position. To which she said you should please try to put yourself in my position. And I said, Well, I think I have and then I that was a rabbit hole. I couldn't get out. Because she's like, Oh, you think you know what it's like to have diabetes. I'm like, No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying I'm saying I'm trying to I think I understand But how it must feel to have your father checking on you like that. And I said, so I do understand, but you have to understand. And she had a fought me for a minute. I said, Listen, try to imagine there's a thing in the world that you love. And you're in charge of it not dying. And she's like, A ha, okay, her blood sugar just jumped up by 10 points. So I think she's gotten Yeah. And she goes, okay. And I said, Now, not only are you in charge of it, but you're the only one aware that it's happening. And she goes, Well, I'm aware. And I'm like, unless you're already unconscious. And she goes, what I said, I imagine if all I had to do was call your roommate. And it would stop a, like a major medical problem from happening. And she's like, Yeah, and I said, and I didn't do that. And then you died. What would I do? And she paused and she was that I just don't like you bugging me.

Kasey 5:57
Was like, yeah, okay, good. Can't give it to you. Exactly,

Scott Benner 6:01
exactly, exactly. All she had to do was go how you make a good point, but she wouldn't give it to me. So all right, I'm sorry, you live in the Midwest. Lot of for two years. So how did you learn that you have lost

Kasey 6:14
a little dramatically, I will say, Oh, I had been misdiagnosed as type two. Back in 2018. And, or that one's the one that was kind of dramatic. I went to the hospital for a adenoma growing out of my liver that started to bleed. Oh, my God. And I had no idea. But it's a benign liver tumor of that lots of people get. But most of the time, they don't have symptoms. But mine burst randomly while I was out to dinner with my brother in law. So he took me to the hospital because I was like, I can't breathe nauseous, and they were like you're bleeding from your liver. And, and then they said, We're going to transfer you to another hospital that we would prefer that handles all of our complicated cases, cases. So while I was there, and they stopped the bleeding, but I had all this, like internal bleeding that had to resolve itself. So I was in the hospital like a week, and they were checking my blood sugar's the whole time. And they were always slightly over 100. And this was when I wasn't eating at all. Because after something like that, like I was not not hungry, not eating I just on lots of pain meds and stuff. So they were like you would you're discharged, you should see your primary care physician about your blood sugar numbers. So I said, okay, and I go see her like a month after I get out of the hospital to check them. And she checks my a one see, I think two and that's it. It was 10. So she was like, okay, like you're a type two diabetic. So I was treated as a type two diabetic for three years. Taking Metformin twice a day. And for a while, that worked. I didn't have high blood sugars. But then somewhere around the end, like two and a half years in or so. I had a surgery and started taking steroids after it for the recovery. Okay. And it was right after that. I know that's when I kind of took a break taking my blood sugar's because my agency had been like 5.56 While I was being treated for type two, so I was like, Okay, this is all going great. Things are good. So I stopped taking I took fingerpicking I just kind of did what I normally do. Yeah. And then I had surgery and then I was taking steroids. I was like, oh, I should probably check my blood sugar's more now that I'm on steroids. And I didn't start right away. But towards the end of it, I started checking in and I was like, Oh, these are high numbers I'm seeing higher than I'm used to seeing but I was like maybe it's just the steroids. So I kind of waited i i stopped taking them like after three weeks. And then I kept checking and the numbers were still like higher than I remember them ever been. So I reached out to my I think also right around then I I started losing weight. And then I lost like 20 pounds in a month. And at first I was like happy I was losing weight because I was like Whoo. I could stand to lose some weight. But then after the The quickness with which it was dropping was alarming. Yeah. Yeah. Unusual. I don't lose weight like that. So I was like, Okay, I better reach out to my doctors to be like, hey, my blood sugars are have been high than higher than usual. And so I did. And they were like, oh, make a make a food journal. Let's see what you're eating. So I made a food journal. And meanwhile, I had some other doctors that I was sharing this info with, like, in appointments, and I was telling them what my blood sugar numbers were like, 250, sometimes 300. And they were like, you should see an endocrinologist. They were like, That's too high. Yeah. So in the meantime, I made an appointment with an endocrinologist while I was talking to my primary care office, about my numbers, and they were like, you know, send this Take, take records for a few days, like, the process felt long. And I was like, let me just make this endocrinology appointment. In the meantime, while you

Scott Benner 11:05
are all talking, I'm gonna go make sure I'm not gonna die if you don't mind. Yeah.

Kasey 11:10
And the weight loss just, I don't remember. I think I felt rundown at the time. And, and so I got diagnosed after an ER visit, but I had seen the endocrinologist, like the week before. And she said, and they tested my a one C. And she was like, it's 10. And I was like, that doesn't make any sense. Like, yeah,

Scott Benner 11:39
because when I stopped paying attention to this, it was five and a half.

Kasey 11:44
I was like, I was like, 645 5.5 the last time and yeah, it's been like a year, since I really paid but I was like that there's no way and she was like, well, there's a possible way if you don't have type do. So she's like, we're gonna do the tests. And they did the test. But she's like, it takes like two weeks to come back. Okay. And she's like, but in the meantime, we're gonna put you on long acting, so she gave me like, 10 units of long acting to start taking every day.

Scott Benner 12:14
Wow. Did you have? I guess you found your meter too? Yeah, I'm gonna start doing that again. How much impact did just that 10 years of long acting have on your on your blood sugar? Not

Kasey 12:27
a lot. Okay. Oh, it was like not a lie. And so I was like, oh, so I'm giving myself this. And it's not. My sugars are still pretty high. And then it was like, maybe four or five days later. I like I had dinner. It was like fried chicken and fries. I started it was not long, and maybe an hour, two hours after I just, I felt like I couldn't collect my thoughts properly. And like I was really out of it. And I was having trouble breathing. And so I took my blood sugar and it was 450. Maybe you think and I was like,

Scott Benner 13:11
is that DKA? Or is it just how you felt when your blood sugar got very high?

Kasey 13:15
I think it was just how I felt when it got high because I went to the hospital that night. And they did not say I was in DKA. Hmm.

Scott Benner 13:24
I don't discount that at all just the altered feelings from very high or very low blood sugars or they can be terrible. So yeah, that's interesting. But that did get you to the hospital. I'm sorry.

Kasey 13:36
Good. Oh, yeah. I seen it. When I saw four, four. I was like, oh, no, no, no. Well, actually, first, I called my sister and I said, because her husband's dad is a diabetic and I was like, I don't know if this is too high. Or if this is okay. Like, should I just stay here she go. And then she contacted her father in law. And she was like, he said, You need to go to the hospital now. And so I was like, okay, okay, I'll go to the hospital. You know, they monitored me, they gave me fluids. i They didn't even give me insulin. I told them about how I was being like investigated for not type two. And they gave me like IV fluids and stuff. And it started it came down slowly. So at some point, I got to 300 and they were like, Okay, we're gonna release you. Contact your Endo, when you get home and let her know what happened. How long does it take you to get that endo appointment? That Well, the first one didn't. I mean only took me maybe a month. The first one and then after? Well, they didn't tell me to go they did contact her. So I literally reached out on my chart. And I was like, Hey, I just went to the ER I say my blood sugar was this and then she was like were started she was like okay, we're not going to wait for your results to come in. I'm starting you on fast acting and the next day she had a script in for fast acting And it was telling me when

Scott Benner 15:01
the bloodwork comes back, you have type one diabetes. Yeah.

Kasey 15:06
Or a lot of the when the bloodwork came back, my glutamic acid, GA D 65. Was it five? Yeah. Was 9900 Yeah. So you and I remember that high in a blood test?

Scott Benner 15:25
I'm sure that I'm sure that's not right. Well, it just I mean, a lot of so much about the, the onset and how slow it is, which is why you could get away with him treating like a type two for so long in the beginning. And you didn't end up in the hospital sooner, but obviously something pushed you a little farther. And then there you were. So yeah,

Kasey 15:45
I'm guessing it was the steroids. Yeah, that kind of pushed pushed into it. But obviously, yes, I had problems and I still had. And I probably still, I don't know if that was my honeymoon. Like those three years that I was like being treated like type two, and it was seemingly okay. My guess

Scott Benner 16:03
Yeah. And then the the liver growth is, and then it bursts, right? So you're you go through like a pretty major trauma that your body has to help with infection. Like I can see that being like how that kind of gets shoved the rest of the way. Do you go to? I mean, they give you insulin, but are you injecting it? Do they talk about a pump? Do you have this weird world where you feel like you're type two? So all this seems really strange?

Kasey 16:31
Ah, no, I mean, I think I accepted it pretty quickly, because I had always been surprised by my type two diagnosis, in a way. I felt like cuz I knew people, other people who were type two. And, and I also since I work in a health care setting, I interview people who have type two, sometimes for stories, and I just, I see myself as like active and I'm not thin, I'm definitely overweight, but like muscle, lots of muscle. Like, I'm like you in that when you said, lots of people can't guess your way or think you're one way and you're actually heavier. That was me like every time I went to the amusement park, I would play that game where they guess your weight because they were always 20 pounds under 30 pounds sometimes.

Scott Benner 17:21
Yes. He was wearing a stuffed animal today.

Kasey 17:24
Yeah, no one can ever guess my weight. So so

Scott Benner 17:28
funny. You said that, because I used to do that all the time. I was like, go ahead. Here's an easy one. I'll give you $1 And then I'll win something. Let's go. So

Kasey 17:35
I was just like, I don't feel how can I be type two already. I was just like, I'm, I'm 30. I think I was 37. When that happened? And I was like I'm I'm pretty active. It was hard to adjust to the type but I did have diabetes in my family. So it wasn't a surprise. There's

Scott Benner 17:55
type two, type two in your family.

Kasey 17:57
My grandpa had it. But I don't know if he was type one or type two. I always assumed he was type one. Okay, my mother tells me he was type two. But But I suspect

Scott Benner 18:11
about other autoimmune stuff. Do you see that with anybody? You're giggling? Yeah, one other stuff.

Kasey 18:16
Oh, yeah. My family. Oh, besides diabetes, vitiligo, sarcoidosis, lupus, cancer, lots of stuff going on? Yeah. Yeah. So

Scott Benner 18:28
So yeah, so then it's not as big of a shift. So you were actually more like, like, it's funny, you were talking about, like, I interview people. And you started talking, you said one thing, and I thought you were gonna go the other way. I thought you're gonna say like, I don't hear myself and their stories about type two diabetes. And like, because I always, I always find that like, when people are learning about their, their illnesses or their troubles through other people's stories, you, you can almost learn as much about yourself by going no, I don't have any of that. Like the thing that they're saying, I don't notice that like, then you can go watch. Probably not that then. But it's interesting, just basically, on the high level stuff that people think about about type two, you just didn't see you didn't have any, you didn't have any, like fitting in with any of that stuff. Maybe

Kasey 19:13
the symptoms, or the way they they would feel. I just thought and I know it's a misconception that like, I would have to be heavier for that to happen, right? Was my biggest thing, like, because I would see people that were like, twice my size who didn't have type two. And and that's where it'll be confusing. Like, how can they and they're twice my size, but they're pre diabetic? Yeah. And they don't even have type two. How can I have

Scott Benner 19:44
type two diabetes before her? Like, come on? Understand, I understand.

Kasey 19:48
When they said it's actually like this type this other type. I was like, Well, now that makes so much more sense because I felt like something was weird about me getting the type two diagnosis right? At the size and activity level, I was right, I could relate to feeling. Feeling bad a lot. I mean, it's been my entire life. I've struggled with health issues since I was a kid in and out of hospitals and

Scott Benner 20:16
what other what other things? What were you struggling with?

Kasey 20:20
Well growing. So growing up allergies, I had an asthma I had. And I didn't know I had the allergies till I got to college. And I went and got tested. But back then, when I was younger, I would every other month, I would get a sinus infection, and an ear infection and bronchitis. And so the hospital felt like a second home because I like I remember so many times waking up in the middle of the night, like I can't breathe. And my mom would take me to the hospital and we'd they give me a breathing treatment. And then they'd say you have a sinus infection, and then they'd give us antibiotics. And then you know, things would clear up and I would breathe better and I would be okay. But it would happen literally every other month

Scott Benner 21:04
about that. Okay, yeah, that doesn't sound surprising, either. To me, when people say allergies related to their autoimmune, like I have autoimmune. I also have allergies. I always think Well, yeah, well, that's an autoimmune response to something that's over and above what it should that's what an allergic reaction is. Right? And that may just make sense. And then the infections. Do you feel better now, since you have a diagnosis and you're using insulin?

Kasey 21:30
Yeah, I definitely feel better. And in that I'm not as tired. I would have lots of issues with sleepiness before I got diagnosed. Like I and you talked about it in an earlier podcast about how you were the person that was like always sleeping before your like anemia, stuff. And that that was me for a very long time. From College on until my diagnosis, like tired all the time looking for nap opportunities every day. Some of my jobs that I had, I would on my lunch break like scarfed down lunch, so that I could take a nap for the second half of lunch, and then go back to work because if I did not take a nap, I would risk falling asleep. Like while driving. I fell asleep twice while driving. Oh,

Scott Benner 22:30
I've done that too. That's not a thing. I usually tell people I fell asleep in the left lane on i 95 in Pennsylvania, and woke up in the right lane. Going into the going into the show. Isn't that so terrifying? Yeah, yeah, it was really and I was young, by the way when that happened. So like in my early 20s It just didn't make any sense. I'd only been awake for like an hour and a half in the morning. I should have been okay, you know? Yeah, it's funny when you look back and you can see, like all this has been happening for a while is sometimes you just kind of power through it. And sometimes this is you're so young, it's almost like you can make the best of it. I don't know if that's the right way to think of it or not. But

Kasey 23:11
yeah, I became a big red bull drinker. As the second time I fell asleep at almost drifted into the oncoming lane when I woke up and then corrected myself. So that scared me enough to be like, okay, one I need to see a doctor about how tired I am. And two, I'm going to start drinking Red Bull

Scott Benner 23:32
is gonna get jacked up on caffeine. It's gonna be fun. And I'm

Kasey 23:34
gonna make sure I nap after because it was like lunch always did it. It was eating that always just made me so tired.

Scott Benner 23:42
Whatever it was your blood sugar a little bit? Maybe. Maybe Oh, yeah,

Kasey 23:46
no. Yeah. Right. Like, I don't know how, how long ago could I have had blood sugar issues, but now I suspect Yeah, it had something to do with maybe high blood sugar after eating and then that's why I was getting so tired.

Scott Benner 24:02
That's really crazy. How do you manage today? What do you do? You're still injections or you have a pump.

Kasey 24:08
So I just got a pump. I got the Omnipod five, two months ago. Oh cool. How do you like it? So I love the convenience of it. I love that. I feel less stressed giving myself than when I had to do injections because I was doing like eight, eight or nine injections a day to try and keep mice like the bumping and nudging and a lot to keep myself in a good range and so just not having to do that many shots a day. Is has been so nice. And I do feel like I have more. Not calmness but like I stress less about sleeping and going low and but I will say I got my agency checked yesterday. And I am higher than when I was MDI. So

Scott Benner 25:05
you were so like you were so kind of like on top of it, like correcting small, probably you were probably correcting numbers that now the algorithm doesn't talk. Maybe. Did you hear my series about setting it up before you set it up? Oh, yeah. And that helped. But where are you having the problem? Is that after meals, or is that with correcting blood sugars? Or where does it get you?

Kasey 25:27
I think both. So it's like, I feel like I'm, I go high, and I just stay there while and and I ask it like, you know, do I need to another Bolus? And it'll say no, based on my correction factor, but then it'll still stay high. So I guess, I need to keep doing more work on adjusting my correction factor? Well, because it changes so often. Yeah,

Scott Benner 25:52
I was gonna say, is it with every meal? Or is it was certain foods?

Kasey 25:56
I feel like it's more certain times of the month? Ah, like, that's hormone? It's, yes, it's definitely there's definitely a lot of hormonal stuff involved. So like, certain days, like, I have a beautiful day, and everything's perfect. And I, because my hormones are working great. Or overloading or whatever they're doing, like, um, everything's and then. So it's figuring out when the fluctuations happen, where things change, and I need to up my settings. That's been a big challenge.

Scott Benner 26:28
Have you tried? Sorry, I know, we've known each other now for like, 25 minutes. But do you have a period tracker? Yeah. Oh, yes. Yeah, you're tracking your like, because if you track your blood sugars in your period tracker should only take you a month or two to figure out like, These are the days and then you're on an algorithm. So if they get around it somehow, like maybe you I don't know, maybe you pick a percentage 10 20%. And if you I don't know, say you're having 10 carbs, call it 12 carbs, you're having 20 carbs, call it 24 carbs and stuff like that, and see if you can't find a balance in there that works in that window when you have a greater need for insulin.

Kasey 27:09
could help. Yeah, yeah, no, it. It took a whole long time. I mean, I didn't when I was first diagnosed, like I had no, they gave me no info about how your hormones a woman's hormones can affect and so I for the first six months, I mean, I was like I didn't understand. So like why certain days, things worked in certain days, things didn't. And so now, I definitely understand it a lot more. But, Bill, I find myself having trouble figuring Okay, exactly seven days before my period, I need to change it to this exactly two days after it ends, I need to change it to this. Exactly. 10 days that like, that's trying. Yeah,

Scott Benner 27:53
and that's hard, because it can go back and forth. It's not always three days or two days, or, you know, five or whatever. And it's sometimes you just see it happening. You go okay, this here comes. And now I'll be because you were doing it with MDI, right, like, who's when you were seeing those rises before you were giving yourself more insulin? Yeah, yeah. But with the the algorithm makes it feel like, oh, it's supposed to take care of it?

Kasey 28:16
Yeah, so I feel like there are definitely times where I don't think I think less about it, or check it less. And then I check it. And then I'm like, Oh, I've been at 200 for like two hours. Now. I had assumed the algorithm would have brought me down by now. Or in that time. And so that's where I feel like the algorithm is not bringing me down very

Scott Benner 28:38
well. Yeah, none of them. The, I think the truth is, is that none of them are going to just do that. Because your needs your need changed. Like it's no different. No different if you have like an influx of of hormonal impact, then if you decided to eat 20 carbs and not announce it to the to the device. Like it's the same thing. Like there's there's a thing pushing your blood sugar up that it's completely unaware of. And so it's like, well, you know, because you said like, on other weeks, you have like real smooth going away from the hormones. So it's it says to itself, like, look, I'm doing the thing I did last week, and it worked fine. It's not working now. It doesn't just make the decision to give you more right away. And that's where you almost have to come in and like say, hey, look, there's more of a need here than you know about. There are some people with on the pod five to say, like we'll make a manual correction, like just do what you would have done like before, and then let it see that you need more insulin. There are people who say I throw it in a manual mode and push it down. I mean, the same thing happens with Arden with loop. She has those times the month, and she uses overrides and extra insulin and all kinds of stuff to get on top of it. So it's not it's not specific to one device. It's, it's been checked. Well yeah, it's specific to the idea that you told the machine that's pretty much still a pretty dumb machine. You told it. These are the numbers. And this is what you do when you see this many carbs. There's no like part of it that says, except on the third week of the month, yeah, when this happens, and that's, that's what you're fighting against.

Kasey 30:22
And I asked, I asked my doctors like, Oh, can I set like different profiles to figure out what different times of the month but they were like, oh, no, with Omni pod, like it's doing that for you. So you don't, but you do need to like go in and manually change your ratios. So that's,

Scott Benner 30:38
so you have to be careful, you have to be careful too. Because you there are settings and on the pod that you if you change them, you're changing them for the manual mode, that is not changing them for the auto mode. You know, because it's deciding like if, like, clear example, you set the pot up, and you told it like I need a unit an hour of basil, I need 24 Day unit an hour, and it goes okay, and then it puts it on and then it starts making decisions automatically, it might be giving you 1.2 An hour in basil or point seven like it might be doing something different. If you go back in and suddenly say You know what, I want to make my basil 1.5 an hour just trying to use big numbers and put it back in auto, it's still gonna say I think she needs point seven. But you have to be careful, because if you keep pushing those numbers up and suddenly swap it over into manual, you'll be using a lot more insulin if you turn them up. So yeah, be real clear about that go through the documentation. Clearly. Changing the settings doesn't change the algorithm, changing the settings changes the manual settings. Okay, so if you feel like you just in general need more, some people end up doing a reset. And being more aggressive upfront with how much they tell it it needs. does a pretty good episode about resetting in the podcast somewhere.

Kasey 31:57
Yeah, I may. I mean, I know I start I started when my insulin knees were the least amount. When the week I started and so but then the doctors also told me it changes like every three days, like the pod is learning learns what you need based on every three days. Yeah.

Scott Benner 32:20
I think legally they avoid the word learning. But but it's making decisions based on the I think the pods that came just before it. The previous Yeah. So that's also like you could end up seeing at the end of a period, for example, like if you had a really heavy need, and it was keeping up with it, then all of a sudden, the need dropped off. But the last pod had that need you might even see a lower blood sugar in that scenario. So it is I mean, it would be nice if everyone's bodies just did the same thing every day, all the time. How can we make that happen? That'd be wonderful. But anyway, also, I wanted to say like you've only been using it for two months, too. Yeah, so you're still learning about it as well. But I would just me personally, if you were, if you were Arden and you had a high blood sugar, I'd say to make a manual correction. Like that, that's what I would do, I'd make I would say, Look, my blood sugar's 200, My correction ratio is bla bla bla, I'm going to put this insulin in. Hopefully the algorithm can stop it. If it can, I'll stop it with with food, but I'm not going to stare at a high blood sugar like this, and then it will see your total daily insulin go up, and that will make it more aggressive. Okay, that makes sense. Yeah, that does. Nothing you hear that Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise, always consult a physician before making any changes to your health care plan. Tell me what you do for a living. Why do you you said you make content for for a medical institution?

Kasey 33:48
Yeah, so I work for a health care system, system of hospitals and health care facilities. And I am a video producer. So I do something very similar to what you do in that I interview lots of patients about their diagnoses and their journey, healthcare journey and create, turn those into videos that help help other people see how things work, where we are, and it's really fun to get to talk to people and you're hearing a lot of them talking about things that are, you know, not the most pleasant because they're talking about health stuff. And, you know, they've all had major health conditions. But I think because of all the stuff I've gone through, I can relate to a lot of the things that they talk about. And you know, when I come to them, or when they come to me, they're on the other side of a lot of it and so it's talking about how the positive place they are now versus where they started. So I'm So it's really fun to get to tell those stories and but I also have, my doctor says, I sound like her medical students. Like I do a story with someone, I don't like to I have that. So there's a little bit of Hi, my husband calls me a hypochondriac.

Scott Benner 35:19
Finger bends in the middle to hold on a second. I'm like,

Kasey 35:22
you're only a hypochondriac, if nothing's wrong with you, right? Yeah, exactly.

Scott Benner 35:25
If you're right, then you're just a genius. So

Kasey 35:29
like, I have a reason to be worried about lots of things. Do you actually see

Scott Benner 35:33
like, when they're talking? Do you think, Oh, I have that or just it just makes me nervous. There are

Kasey 35:39
times I wonder, do I have that? Like, when I remember doing some stories on pa D, peripheral artery disease, and some of the symptoms they were describing about their legs, and now I'm like, it's probably a blood sugar issue slash, slash, slash like my anemia. But I would have like, leg issues. And I was like, Could this be PID, but then I got tested and found out I was anemic. And so I was like, Oh, okay. The anemia is probably the reason for some of my leg symptoms, not pa D. But since I just did a story on pa D. I was like, Maybe I am pa D, you know, starts

Scott Benner 36:20
going in that direction. You're like, well, this is this could definitely be it. I could definitely have this thing that I don't even know what that stands for. Because late Yeah, that's crazy. By the way, if I sound confused, ever, your voice is very similar to my son's girlfriends, and it throws it throws me off once in a while. I'm like, everyone's gone. Like, that's not her. Just keep focused, Scott. Anyway, so you're almost like, kind of making content for like unique, your own ecosystem? Yeah, yeah. And so do you deliver to patients? Do you also interview doctors? Is that Yeah, like, is it hospital wide? Or is it do you go from like, department to department? How

Kasey 37:03
do you handle all that? Yeah, no, we, the content we make goes out on social media, it goes out to our employees, internal content. YouTube, web pages, for the health system. So it goes in a lot of places. So guys spend my time interviewing patients, doctors, anyone affiliated with the healthcare system about some type of story that is worth telling. Yeah. And so I say, I feel like, I'm the news team. I'm on the news team, for the healthcare system. And like, like, we're their personal news team covering all of the stories within the health system.

Scott Benner 37:46
That's exactly how it struck me. It's like your like your, your own social media ecosystem for for the system. And you get to, I mean, the value behind sharing stories with people like, Okay, we joke that you're like, I have thrombosis, but you might not, but other people can hear that and go, I'll be damned. I do have that. And yeah, and lead them to at least a checkup to find out if not, you probably end up it's a great way to reach people.

Kasey 38:12
That's the goal. Yeah. is for someone to listen to it and say, Oh, that sounds like me. Maybe I should get that checked out.

Scott Benner 38:20
Now, I can't, I mean, I can't tell you like, I don't know that I can completely quantify how bowled over I am by how impactful the podcast is for people. Like it's like it was a hope, but I just didn't realize there's something about this kind of medium and reaching people where they are they don't have to come to something or take a class or it's on their time or however you kind of like want to look at it. It's so it's just that valuable. It's the only word I can come up with. And I just I'm I'm thrilled that it's been if you've been doing this a long time for them.

Kasey 38:53
Yeah for four or five years now. Wow,

Scott Benner 38:57
that's really great. Are you like a sound snob or like when you hear me complain about noises you like That's right Scott. There should be no background noises whatsoever. Well,

Kasey 39:10
I understand the the struggle because even in our studio we have a door next door where it's like oh, if that door slams in the middle of our we have to tell people can you back it up and just say that one more time?

Scott Benner 39:25
If you don't leave it in like I do, I just do it again. Just you just said something about your mom just go right back to a please because my wife can't keep that dog from barking. So it's hilarious. I have another question about this. Where do they just go? Dammit. Oh, lawyers. Everything you make goes through lawyers. No, no. Wow, that's terrific. So you don't have to make content ship it off to a lawyer and then they come back and say it 23 seconds till 27 seconds.

Kasey 39:58
Oh, I have her heard that some people at at health institutions do you have to do that? And then yeah, then then the legals like no, this no that and no, we don't have to do that where I'm at. So I'm thankful. That's

Scott Benner 40:12
terrific. It's interesting to see, as time progresses, different entities get it, like they finally understand they're like, Okay, yeah, every word doesn't have to be so precise. If we make them so precise, no one wants to hear most of the people I work with, when I do stuff like that, they do get it. But back in the day, it was like, well record it and give it to us. So Mike, I'm not doing that. Like, if you want to come on and do an interview and come on and do an interview, but you don't get to have it before it goes up. Like, you know, you know, like, oh, we said this thing here. There was one time. It's been such a long time now. But gentleman came on to talk about a drug that was under development. And I put the episode I was terrific. By the way, it's a very popular episode, the drug is actually really helpful to people and everything. I'm trying not to be too specific. But I put the episode off, and like five or six hours later, I get this email. And then it's, uh, can you speak on the phone? I get on the phone. And the guys like, my lawyers are screaming at me about this thing I said, and I was like, Oh, okay. I'm like, Well, you know, well as what do we do? You know, and, and he's like, they're so afraid that the FDA and blah, blah, blah, but it was never a problem. But it was just, I swear to you, it was like a SWAT team of people who went to school to be lawyers descended on me. I'm like, first of all, he said it. Secondly, hear the difference between what he said and what you're saying right now. So, you know, like, maybe is everyone just trying to like, make a job for themselves? Like I couldn't tell exactly, you know, ended up being fine. But I was just wondering,

Kasey 41:53
we do check everything. We've got the doctors checking it marketing, checking it, but yeah, we don't have to send it to legal and we're very thankful for that. That's

Scott Benner 42:02
really wonderful. It's a very progressive idea, actually.

Kasey 42:05
Yeah, I mean, we, we we pump out a step up, like, I think last time, during the pandemic was 250 videos a year. Wow, on average we were making, so it's like, we're going way too fast for legal to

Scott Benner 42:19
everything, like it must be okay. Like lawyers were contracts. They're just like, it's probably fine. Actually, you know how that just made me laugh. I put up this post today on Facebook, I was feeling whimsical. And I was like, here, I'm going to admit something that we can all admit something. It'll be fun to like, share a secret. So I said, I said in 2013, I wrote a book about being a stay at home parent. And when people asked me how long it took to write the book, I always I tell them six months, which is mostly the truth. If you don't count the 60 days, it took me to learn how to type before I made the before I started writing. Anyway, so then, then it just it's a cascade of people like saying embarrassing things about themselves. And then one person salt tells a story about an attorney in their office, who kind of left somewhere on bad terms. I'm getting this a little right and a little wrong. But they went into contracts and put a bunch of dirty words into contracts that they used over and over again, knowing that no one would ever read them again, and then just tickled them to think that people's contracts would have like foul language. made me laugh. One woman said she kicked her husband in the face during a sexual act. That's a great story. If you're not on the Facebook group, you definitely should be aware, hilarious. Anyway, it's good times. But that just made me made me think that for some reason about the the lawyers and the contracts and everything. So I

Kasey 43:46
saw that and I was trying to think of a funny story that I had, but I couldn't think of an appropriate one.

Scott Benner 43:53
One person said, I cannot share this here. If it's not anonymous. Like I get it. I just think sometimes it's just helpful for people to just blow off some steam and be silly and stuff like that. So yeah. Plus the look at the humblebrag. I did. I was like, you know, I wrote a book. I found a way to be like, don't forget, I'm a published author. Fish that in there. Yeah, I wasn't really doing that. I was really just trying to give it context. Like how ridiculous is it? I was 40 years old, about 40 or 41 years old. I had made the agreement with the publisher. I'm like, Yeah, I'll write this book. And then I had to, I'd never learned how to type. So I had to get one of those typing teacher programs and like go through kids like steps of like, I learned that type of like a dinosaur in front of me being like, yeah, push the day and I'm like, trying. So anyway. Well, I listen to I don't know why I'm not being hired for things like this and other healthcare systems. Why am I not interviewing people in healthcare systems? You

Kasey 44:51
could if you wanted to get a job in a healthcare system where you I'm sure you could see I'm making podcasts videos, all kinds of cool content, why

Scott Benner 45:00
are they not tapping me? I, by the way, I've heard let me just not not you, Casey but other people. I've heard some of your content, and it's garbage. And you could you could easily do with the person who can direct a conversation. Yeah, oh my god, watch me be petty for a second. But in the for humor always for him. This thing comes up, it's not important what it is, it's a doctor and somebody they work with. And the person interviewing them. And the doctor comes on and says, The problem with this space I'm going to be very vague, is that the information is boring. And people can't absorb it because it's so boring. And then for about the next 10 minutes, the guy goes on to be so freakin boring. And never, and doesn't get to the point, right? Then says, I get I'll stay vague, then says and I figured out what the answer is. And I'm gonna give it to you without being boring. I was like, my god, man, you've already spent 10 minutes and I'm only late. Oh my god. Okay. See, I'm only watching now because I it's making me feel good about myself. I'm like, I am great at this, like, this is terrible. And so and then they go on to say something that I think so it was around diabetes, I think I might have said this 10 years ago. And the person the guy says, we've just concluded a long study that says for sure. And then says something that 10 years ago, I was like, this is definitely a real writer. And I was like, Oh my God, how long have you been working on this? And it was not exactly a deep thing. It was like one of those things that when he said it, I went yeah, da Yeah. And you poured the crap out of me while you were doing it, which just makes it hilarious. So now I'm watching it, and I'm laughing just because of the ridiculousness of it. Like he's like, um, you know, the you know what the problem is, everything's boring, then goes on to bore the tears. And I'm giggling and my wife's like, we're in bed. It's late at night. Like she's doing her word thing. And I'm watching this. And she's like, what's so funny, I was like, Oh, my God, I couldn't breathe. I was like, This is ridiculous. And I took the thing off, and I played it back for her. My wife's a much nicer person than I am. And she's just like, but he's so boring. And I was like, die, though. It's right. It's funny. Then she didn't. She didn't laugh. She's like, You're being mean to him. I'm like, he can't hear me. It's just you and me. It's not mean, if he doesn't know. It's mean, Casey, if later I tell it on the podcast. But anyway, I think I should be being hired by these hospitals. I talk to your people will do it. Again, I'm busy. I can't do it. But what what made you want to come on the podcast?

Kasey 47:56
I could hear a lot of stuff that people would say that sounded a lot like me. So I guess that was part of it. Like, oh, I can relate so much. But also, just like, the frustration around, I mean, I had so many missed diagnoses in my lifetime. And so I just, if I can help someone, like figure something out, or, or work through something at all, it's nice to feel like you're giving back after you have kind of come to the place where you need to be. And it took me a long time to get there. And with a lot of missteps, I mean, I was I was diagnosed with narcolepsy. Besides type two, didn't have that. No, didn't have that. And I think it was all again, blood sugar related. That was passing out all the time. And I would just go to sleep so quickly. And, and I would have these instances where my body would they call the cataplexy, where my body would like, I just couldn't control it. I couldn't hold myself up. I would spasm. And I think now maybe could have been low blood sugar.

Scott Benner 49:16
Oh, well, I'm looking at it. Yeah. Like it's kind of a collapsing of your body. Hmm, Mm

Kasey 49:22
hmm. And I would spend out like, I would get into a fight with my mom. I remember that would trigger it a bunch, like I would get I would be arguing or something. And then I would be like, I can't like I had to have to lie down and I couldn't, I would just have to lie there and I would my body would just like seize every like 30 seconds or something for maybe an hour or two and then I'd feel okay. And then I'd be able to like go to bed go to sleep and then the next day feel fine. Or like I'd be out with my, we'd be out shopping and as long day and My legs would feel like jello, and I would like I can't walk back. I literally need to hold on to something to walk. Yeah. And so that's what we were thinking was cataplexy. But now I wonder, was it low blood sugar

Scott Benner 50:16
sounds? I mean, just from the visuals I found online about it certainly seems like your body just like a marionette that somebody pulls the strings like loose on just kind of collapse. Yeah. Oh, that's crazy.

Kasey 50:28
And then when I finally started to figure it out apples, like I was with my and it happened. I was like, my legs are weak. I can't I like and I was like, go get me apple juice. And then he did and 20 minutes later, I was like, Oh, I feel great. I feel fine. Yeah.

Scott Benner 50:42
Hey, in your late 30s Why the heck are you arguing with your mom? That's that's the that's the only thing. I'm like, That's my only follow up question. Like, what

Kasey 50:49
do you Oh, my mom's a lot. She's great. But yeah, lots of high expectations. I say.

Scott Benner 50:58
I was like, I was just like, I'm like, I'm like Casey's 37 arguing with her mom asked about that. That's what I want to know about. High expectations

Kasey 51:08
are and no, she's one of those people. Just like, you know, people would tell you to have cinnamon for your diabetes. Oh, kinda one of those. Oh, I'm sorry. So we get it? Yeah. So we get in arguments a lot, or we used to get in arguments a lot over health stuff. Especially so

Scott Benner 51:28
I pray for you today. And I bought okra. Great. Yeah.

Kasey 51:36
Did you take that supplement I sent you like, and so yeah, it just, yeah,

Scott Benner 51:41
no, I don't didn't unless Jesus is gonna come with a time machine. It's not going to help me. Appreciate your input, though. You make me think that we're just starting. Pretty soon, Jenny and I are going to start a mythbuster series about diabetes, where we're going to just tell like, we're going to talk about the funniest things that you hear about diabetes and kind of Oh, that's a good one, break them down and stuff like that. It's actually a list of listeners idea. Yeah, it was I was like, that's such a good idea that I walked away. I was like, Why did I not think of that? First? But I was like, I'm still on that. Is that okay? And they're like, Yeah, sure. I'm doing it. Okay. Do you have people in your family that are helping? Like you said, you're married? I heard you say that a couple of times. So I'm always interested in that, like you're diagnosed as an adult? Do you go back to a loved one and say, I need help with this? Or do you kind of turtle up and take care of it on your own? Is there somewhere in the middle? Yeah,

Kasey 52:37
I mean, I think I take a lot of it on myself in general, just because I don't know, I guess my husband likes to say that. I should have gone to med school that they like you, you know, you just want to be a doctor. And so I think I shouldered a lot of it myself, because I could figure it out and understand it and work on it myself. And I didn't necessarily expect him to do all that. But he did. I did have him learn how to give me shots. So like, sometimes he would do my insulin, if I wanted to do it, like, in the back, like on my butt or something or like the back of my arm, I would have him. So that was really great. He'll give me a shot if I don't want to do it, or it's a hard to reach place. And then he follows me on Dexcom although we need to figure there's some kind of Dexcom issue that he we're still working through, but he can generally see me on Dexcom but yeah, so I I don't have to ask him to do a lot. But he is a participant in it gets to hear me talk about it all the time.

Scott Benner 53:51
Again, is the guy all I heard was like he figured out how to get the back your pants down using the diabetes. Really, I heard. I was like, Oh, he's like, oh, like I can see your butt extra shirt. I'll learn about this. Why not?

Kasey 54:07
Just be disappointed when it's the arm ones that I asked. Yeah.

Scott Benner 54:11
He's come to run out of the room. He's like, Oh, finally is my time. This is great. And then you're like here right? My arm like wah wah. This is a waste. I can see your arm regular across the room. What the heck? That's nice, though. Like, I mean, so enough involvement that you that he has some comfort, and you have some comfort, but he's not. He's not a overseer. A is not a like a caregiver for you. I think that's I think that's reasonable. I think that sounds like a good mix. Honestly. Yeah,

Kasey 54:40
it's been working well for us.

Scott Benner 54:42
Did you have the this is how my glucagon works talk.

Kasey 54:45
Mm hmm. Yeah. And he saw me use it. I've used it once. Really? Once. Yeah. Which one did you have? You mean with a gun or bat? Beth? I don't know how to say it. Best gimme Yeah. G voc

Scott Benner 54:58
or is it best squirmy.

Kasey 54:59
That's okay. Yeah. Do you vote?

Scott Benner 55:02
I am. Okay. And you used to you were like, oh, it's happening. I'm using this. Yeah,

Kasey 55:07
there was one day I was MDI still, and like, my blood sugar was just it, it got to 40. And I had been eating I for 2030 minutes I had been I had eaten 2030 minutes before, like taking stuff. And I was just like, I'm so full. I can't physically put any more in my body, and it's not coming up. So I was like, Okay, I think this is the time. So I got my husband was lying. I mean, I was like, lying on the bed. And I was like, I feel so horrible, but it's not coming up. And I was like, I think I just need to do it. So I did it. And it did come up. But even then it still took like, 15 minutes to come up.

Scott Benner 55:51
Wow, you're really in a situation? Yeah, I

Kasey 55:54
don't even remember how I got there. Yeah, like, I can't. Like I didn't get that. But somehow it did. I mean, nighttime can always be tricky with me. Like, I feel like, if I'm gonna go low, it's at night. So do you

Scott Benner 56:07
and but you're not seeing or you're not seeing as much of that with the algorithm. Are you just less scared of it? Because you said earlier, we're less scared. But

Kasey 56:14
ya know, I'm not seeing as much or if I go low. I I can drink some like glucose juice and come out of it. Yeah, pretty quickly. So I haven't had like a stubborn low. Like I did that that time.

Scott Benner 56:30
Interesting. So let's listen. I'm glad you had it. It was a it was helpful for you. You've said a couple of things over the last hour, that make me feel like you actually listen to this podcast. So how did you find it?

Kasey 56:44
I have a so I used to work in TV news. And one of the anchors that I worked with has a daughter who has type one. And she had always posted about stuff. And when I got diagnosed, I reached out to her to kind of be like, Hey, I saw that because I didn't know a lot of people. But I like I saw that you have a daughter with type one. Like I just got diagnosed with LADA. If you have any suggestions or anything I should check out, let me know. And she was the one he told me check out the Juicebox Podcast. That's cool. And I didn't do it right away. I took me like six, it took me a good four months maybe. Because I think just when I was diagnosed, like there was so much, so much stuff that changed all overnight. That like I couldn't handle like listening it. I needed to just like find a balance with what I'd been told so far and get a handle on that before. I was like ready to like, but Oh, I'm so glad I did. Because there were so many things I was doing wrong. Oh my goodness, and all these things that it happened that I didn't understand the episodes on the factors that affect your blood sugar, like just figuring out a lot of those made such a big difference. And so it was just life changing to because this wasn't stuff we were talking about in the doctor's office, or, and so I feel like I Yeah, got a lot better handle on how to manage it. From listening to the podcast, for sure. But it took me some time to get there. Yeah, I

Scott Benner 58:36
think that makes sense. Honestly, like, I mean, I can't imagine like just put into another situation like you know, you, you just found out you have something it doesn't go away. And then someone you're like you reach out to somebody like Do you have any advice or like listen to a podcast? Like Wait, what? Like, no, I'm not doing that. added to my list. List of things. It's time for my true crime podcast, which i By the way, really want to listen to. And you know, it's interesting because I can get caught. I try very hard not to get caught on one side of this conversation. Because it happens to me sometimes, like I'm the one who makes it. I know what it can do for people. I've seen the feedback come for years and everything. And you see somebody who's like, I don't have time to steal podcast and there's like the part of me that makes it as like, come on, like, like, what am I going to do? Like I got you all the way to the water. I can't get you to drink it like you know, like it's because it's hard to find people get them to believe like, Okay, this podcast might be worth listening to, then to listen long enough like What if you fall in one of the episodes where I'm an S you don't know. You know, they

Kasey 59:40
they like to be in a receptive mode. Right

Scott Benner 59:43
right. Yeah, you just have to be ready for but it's um, and that makes complete sense to me. On my side of it. There's I can sometimes in my own head be like just listen to it. You know, like I never say that out loud. But yeah, you know, when somebody comes to me online there was like, I don't have like the Ask a question about like, Hey, I'm super low every day and I'm like, Hey, here's 10 episodes. It's right in the middle of the Pro Tip series that'll help you think I don't have time for that. And I'm like, yeah, like, I come to your house, like, you know, you want me to do it? Like, I don't know, like, I already wrote it down. It's right there, you know. But I take the point. And I'm, I'm amazed that that many people get over that hump and actually do it. But I guess it's probably eventually because someone gave you the recommendation, right? Like, you think like, I asked them and they said this, they would have just said it for no reason. Well,

Kasey 1:00:34
I feel like it was because I wasn't seeing good enough results myself. Like, I was like, Okay, I've been at this for this long, and my numbers are still not what I want. And I'm still having trouble. And I'm, and so I was like, Okay, I've taken in all the stuff the doctor said, and I've been putting it to use and it's only working so well. So I was like, now I'm ready to like hear some more stuff to try and incorporate and get things lower.

Scott Benner 1:01:03
That makes sense. Like you want to level up. Yeah, yeah, you're like, Well, let me see if I can figure out a little more. That's where you thought it at all, like, put off by the fact that I'm not that I don't have diabetes? No,

Kasey 1:01:15
no, because once I you know, heard your background and it's obvious how knowledgeable you are. So I was okay, that you're a quote unquote layman. From a having diabetes perspective, but, um, ya know, I, as I read and see so many of the parents, you know, having to figure out so many things for their children. And so, yeah, yeah, so you that's a

Scott Benner 1:01:48
lot you have an anemia diagnosis, too. Is that part of is that a food absorption thing? Or do you think that's a bleeding thing? Do you know where that came from? No,

Kasey 1:02:01
I don't know. And so I'm, I'm thinking, here's what I'm doing. I'm thinking the gastroparesis that I'm hearing a lot of episodes mentioned that that might be me, because I've definitely had trouble with, especially during lows. Like if I've eaten and I have a low say an hour later, like trying to put more into me really hard. And oftentimes, I will grow up reflexively, like I'm too full. And so that was always a bit of a struggle managing those was like, trying to put food into me when I'm already full or really full, and I just can't and then I throw it up because my stomach like No, no more. And then I would get like X rays. And they would be like, don't eat three hours before and I wouldn't make we see food in your stomach. Did you eat and I was like, No, I haven't eaten for three hours. Like you said, like, okay, next time, don't eat for four hours and then I don't eat for four hours and like we see food in your stomach. Like I don't know what to do. You told me not to eat for? I didn't do so. I probably need to see a GI.

Scott Benner 1:03:07
Before you go take that step. Did you listen to the episode about Arden's like digestion? That's called Art. Yeah, just try trust me just try a digestive enzyme at every meal for a week and a half. And you'll see if if you don't, you might see things move quick, through you more quickly, more efficiently, and your insulin work more the way you expect it to. And if that's the case, then you're like, you know, that's the other thing that like it's the one thing we don't talk a lot about, like people are like, Oh, your pancreas all that's job is insulin, it doesn't do that anymore. Your pancreas helps with your digestion too. And if it's and for a lot, I think a lot of people with autoimmune diabetes, they're seeing slow or poor digestion, and they can get in that space where they're like, oh, it's gastroparesis, but in the more you know, in the diabetic, you know, parlance of the word, and so yeah, just it's such an easy way to try just to see if that if that helps you so yeah,

Kasey 1:04:10
and I did get I got her digestive enzymes.

Scott Benner 1:04:12
Oh my god. I've been taking them. Well,

Kasey 1:04:16
I I know it's so hard. I my iron pills. All the pills is so hard. So I do sometimes remember it's like remembering and doing it consistently make

Scott Benner 1:04:29
it your mother yell at you about this. I think Can you imagine? I'm exactly her now like take those pills. I got you from the health food store.

Kasey 1:04:39
Yes. Oh, I'm so sorry. Yes, he she does send me supplements.

Scott Benner 1:04:48
This is I'll tell you that's what made it so hard to talk about a little bit because you do feel like like even the lady who helped me at the health food store the first time I was like I don't think this lady shaved her underarms in 10 years. And she smells like petroleum oil. And like, what is it 1976 in here, like, what am I doing? But man, she knew what she was talking about, you know? So what the hell? Yeah. Yeah, don't take them, for God's sakes, please.

Kasey 1:05:16
And somewhere along the way. So I was also diagnosed with lupus in my early 20s, and when that happened, I went to see a holistic doctor who it felt like was not a quack kind of doctor. And so one of the things like she said, you know, you have autoimmune can, you have this autoimmune diagnosis. And the big thing that she that I did do that she said, was like, stop drinking milk. Like she's like milk. A lot for a lot of people every time you drink milk, like a cell in your gut bleeds. Um, I were just lactose intolerances is very high among especially minorities. Okay, so I did stop drinking milk around that time. And then she also was like, here are I mean, she gave me like seven supplements. You take a cookie 10, you need to be taking, like, it was a bunch of things. And so, and I did find that I felt I felt better when I would do that. But it was also like, a lot to keep up with. And so eventually, I kind of, yeah, but every once in a while, I go back.

Scott Benner 1:06:35
And sometimes it's hard when somebody's you're in an office, and somebody's like, you should try this. We sell them like, Oh, all right. I see. All right, I got you.

Kasey 1:06:43
I take too much already. It's hard to keep up with all the things I need to do. Yeah,

Scott Benner 1:06:48
I mean, I can just tell you from a very basic perspective, Arden had trouble with digestion or stomach hurt. And you know, her insulin was working all kinds of weird ways. And you know, you just like, This doesn't seem right. And it kind of came out of nowhere. And it felt like it came out of nowhere, but then you start thinking about it, you're like, had Her stomach's always hurt, like, like, and not always, but since the diabetes, but she's been so young since she was diagnosed, like, how would we know the difference? And it's just, it's just such a simple little, like screw to turn, just to see, you know, and you don't have to do it for long enough to see if you're getting like, value from it either. So as long as you're pooping, and you're taking that like, because you don't want to be backed up. But if you've taken those things, and it's coming out the other side the way you expect. You'll know if it's helping you in pretty short order. All right, she's I can't believe this. I don't I don't. I don't. It's late in the afternoon. I don't want to be somebody's parent.

Kasey 1:07:47
Oh, the other fun thing that I haven't mentioned yet is that my my best friend growing up also got diagnosed with a lot of real

Scott Benner 1:07:55
like, as an adult. Yeah, you guys live there a power line or something that was going on there. I was like,

Kasey 1:08:01
I want to reach out to everyone from high school. I'd be like, were you diagnosed with water?

Scott Benner 1:08:06
Hey, did you ever well water too?

Kasey 1:08:09
Because I like oh my god, like we we've been best friends since like sixth grade. And she was diagnosed a few years before me. But she hers is like, I don't know less severe. Like she only takes long acting. She doesn't need short acting yet. Yet, yet. Yeah. And when when I was dying, it was like, Oh, you need all the things so, but like she gave me my insulin shots at my wedding. So it's nice that I have someone close to who knows the struggle to Yeah,

Scott Benner 1:08:43
no, that must be lovely. Actually. Do you talk a lot about it?

Kasey 1:08:48
Not a lot. Because, you know, we're, we're in our 40s and we're busy and so we only connect every you know, once a month maybe but when we do we do usually you know ask girl how's it going with with the diabetes and or I'll tell her about what my new thing is that I'm doing like Omni pod next time I chat with her and yeah, yeah. And then I also found out the guy I had a crush on in high school. Also had type one and I had no idea.

Scott Benner 1:09:20
Maybe you're the problem. You might be patient zero you're doing this to people kissing. Giving people diabetes. I

Kasey 1:09:34
posted about it on Facebook when I got it. And then he reached out and says and I was like I had no idea you had diabetes? I don't know you. Yeah, I had a crush on him for years in high school. But

Scott Benner 1:09:48
he knew it but you guys didn't date. Oh, no, no, no, no, no. Oh, okay. Hold on. Just for fun. Why not?

Kasey 1:09:55
Oh, well, I mean, I had a boyfriend at one point in In high school, and then I was too shy to say anything and I don't think he liked me. So oh, we were just Facebook friends now that we're all alike. Because we went to the same high school. We were both on the track team together. And that's how I formed a crush, but I was never going to tell anyone I had a crush on that. I crushed on it. But

Scott Benner 1:10:19
But you believe he knew? Oh, no, no, no. Oh, no. Oh, he doesn't know. Oh, this fantastic. Oh, no, no, no, I love this. I don't know. I don't know why it's so good to me for so I've

Kasey 1:10:29
never told him that. Way back when I have. But he reached out when he saw my posts to be like, Oh, I've been living with type ones since I was little. Tell them and I was like, I had no idea.

Scott Benner 1:10:41
You were telling me you're married. And you're like, you're Oh, yeah. reaches out to say, oh my god, I have type one to reserve a little bit of you're like, Oh, my God, the guy from track. He still knows me.

Kasey 1:10:55
Oh, well. No. And it was this is something. So I grew up always thinking about him. That he's had like, there was a profound sadness, literally. Yeah, that he had. And I didn't know where it came from. But I wonder now that he said, Oh, I I've had type one since I was a kid. I wonder if that was part of it.

Scott Benner 1:11:21
Casey, were you trying to save that boy? Was that? Pretty? Like, oh, I could help him? Probably

Kasey 1:11:27
like my personality. So

Scott Benner 1:11:31
trust me, you've been said you'd be sending him supplements if he would have said yes.

But that's really interesting, isn't it? That you, I don't know why I find that so like, just interesting. It makes me think of every pretty girl I went to school with. Like, and and then you're just like, Oh, I remember everybody loved that girl. And like and or that guy, like every girl was looking for that guy, or vice versa, whatever. And then you see them now as adults and like some of them are like, I get it. Like I still get it, you know? And then some of them you're like, Oh, whoops. I think I used it all up early. Oh, yeah.

Kasey 1:12:12
I was the girl had a crush on everybody. Like literally everybody. So I was non discriminatory.

Scott Benner 1:12:19
Just didn't matter. I see the good Nall. That's fantastic. You should you just got married. Is that your first marriage? Yeah. You waited on purpose? Looking for the?

Kasey 1:12:31
Yeah, dated a lot, but just hadn't found the right one. And then. And then I, we were best friends for like three years. And then he asked me on a trip. And we went and the rest is history. Yeah.

Scott Benner 1:12:48
If you could afford vacations I'm in. That's good. I wouldn't be thinking it'd be like a trip that damn right. Let's go. But I applaud the waiting. Like, I like that. Like I like the don't just marry the first person who stops in front of Oh, no. Yeah, no, no, no feeling. That's very cool. Is there anything we haven't talked about that we should have? No, no.

Kasey 1:13:12
I don't think so. I mean, there's lots more that I could talk about. But yeah, but nothing that needs to be talked

Scott Benner 1:13:17
about. Well, needed wonder the same thing. I don't want to I just don't want to miss anything. Because it's your story, you know, and I want to make sure that it's somewhere in between you telling your story and me being silly that we get the things that are important to you. And be telling stories about people being boring on YouTube and how delighted I was by it. I mean, it's a real look into my illness. But I have to go back and tell you again. When he said the problem is it's boring. And then he went on to be boring. I don't know. Like if you know everything you need to know about me. I giggled for 10 minutes while it was happening. Like I'm like, oh my god, it's still happening. My voice like shut up. I'm like, no, like, he still boring the crap out of me. Probably such a lovely person. Like I feel, ya know, I

Kasey 1:14:04
love people. They don't know. They don't know.

Scott Benner 1:14:08
It's hard to do this, like, do you the thing you do it work? Is it scripted? Or are you driving it? Where do you let them talk and then edit around there? Yeah,

Kasey 1:14:20
that's what it's it's like we have some general questions. And but we just let them talk. And then once we get the transcripts, then we kind of start piecing it together and figuring out how do we tell this? How do we tell this story?

Scott Benner 1:14:36
So more like more like a more like a PBS style podcast feeling?

Kasey 1:14:42
Yeah, kind of. Yeah. But also, you know, there's time constraints like, Oh, you got to tell it in five minutes or less. So

Scott Benner 1:14:51
you see PVS I did. I did one of those podcasts once was for it was very UK podcast and they wanted to interview me There's about behavior. It's a parenting thing. Oddly enough, all the things I'm ever interviewed about have nothing to do with diabetes. It's always very, yeah. So they're like, you know, they sit down and we have these long conversation must go on for a half an hour person would ask question, I'd pontificate like, they went back and forth. And then I heard it. And I don't know that I didn't talk for maybe 25 seconds. And but they somehow picked out the exact thing they needed to put in that exact space. And I was like, wow, that's a skill. That's an editing skill. Because I, as you can all probably imagine, chess talked for ever, you know, like, and not just and I'm not like, direct, I tell stories to make points, and you know, like, all this stuff, but they loved it. They were like, this is this is exactly what we need. And I was like, okay, but then they didn't need more than 20 seconds here, and 10 seconds there and stuff like that. It's interesting. How

Kasey 1:15:50
they did oh, yeah, no, we always get way more. I mean, I just did an interview a couple weeks ago is an hour, an hour long interview, and I have to edit it down to five minutes or less. Yeah, yeah. I

Scott Benner 1:16:04
when my book came out, it's so funny. I'm not mentioning this twice. And I don't mean to. I got Pete, I don't know if people wouldn't know this. But if you're not famous, and I'm certainly not. If you're not famous and you write a book, your publisher doesn't really help you sell the book very much. I know that sounds strange, but they don't. And so I got myself some media. And that media led to Katie currux, online producer reaching out to me, I'm in this studio in New York City. It's actually where they do the CBS News, I think is where we shot it. But the News, the news wasn't till later in the day, so everything's kind of pushed off the it's so cool like this, this, the new stages is pushed off into a corner. And they're shooting this web show. But at the same time, there are 20 or 30 desks of people who work for CBS, who are literally just doing their job in that space. Yeah. And it was going to be this gentleman was gonna get interviewed, I forget about what and then it was me. So I was kind of in the wings while he was doing it. And I have to give this guy like a ton of credit for a lot of my life, even though I don't know who he is. He didn't really do it on purpose. But he gave this very competent interview. That when it ended, I thought, well, that's so forgettable. I'm not gonna be forgettable when I talk to miss Kirk in a second. Okay, so the next thing I know, I'm up there telling stories about this time, my wife and I were having sex in a field and a commuter train went by really slow and everyone could see us and like, but you know, like, I just like I told big, stupid stories. Like she's like, so you're an author. She tries to bring it back. And I'm like, Oh, my God. Yeah, I got a book signing. And she's like, Yo books and like, in my hometown, I was like, I was so excited. My wife stayed home that day, to help me because the book signing was in the afternoon, got the kids off to school, and I came back into the bedroom and I was like, this seems like the kind of day a guy like me would get to have sex, right? Because like, I wrote a book and I got a book signing and she's Katie Couric is looking at me like, What in the hell are we doing? I'm like, so anyway, Katie. I jump into bed. I'm very exuberant, excited, but I think I hit my wife's nipple by mistake, kind of pinch it to the bed. You know what I'm talking about. And I'm telling this big. This big dumb story. And she's laughing. And everyone working in the desks is laughing. The guy running the cameras laughing the producers laughing and I am just like, I this is why famous people are crazy. I'm like, I feel terrific about like, how I'm manipulating these people's like life and they're laughing. And everything anyway, gets all done. She's like, like, telling me stories afterwards. By the way. I'm gonna say this right here. I've never said that before. What a dirty mouth on a lady. I love Katie Couric. You'd have no idea by watching her on TV. She is hilarious, right? So we're talking afterwards and everything. And about a week later, I get this note from her producer. And she's like, Hey, you know the things up now. And I go and look at it. And it's like, four minutes long. And none of my stories are in there. And I got back to it. I'm like, I'm so sorry. Did I let you down? She goes, Oh, are

Speaker 2 1:19:12
you kidding me? She goes, that video is famous in this building. She's like, we are all watching it on our on our computers. She's like, it's never gonna make it into the thing. She goes,

Kasey 1:19:23
Yeah, we can't use them. But we can watch it. Terrific. Thank

Scott Benner 1:19:27
you. And I'm like, okay, but then, you know, a couple of weeks later, they call me back and actually had me on our television show. They were in a meeting. And they said, we should get that guy back from that thing. Actually, Katie Couric said that in the meeting, she said, Why is the quote the girls like I wrote it down for you. She said, I was just in a meeting with Katie. And she said, why are we not getting Scott Benner for this? Oh, and I was like, see, they didn't ask for the other guy cuz he was competent. And you were memorable. I was like, let me tell you Katie about this time. She's just Gotta be like, is this not about parenting? And I'm like, not anymore, honey, I'm here. Let's go.

Kasey 1:20:08
Anyway, on all kinds of directions,

Scott Benner 1:20:10
if it wasn't for that guy going before me, I would have done the same thing he did. Okay, I swear to God, I was already, I would have gone up there and gave her dry answers to canned questions, and it would have been forgettable. And I know we do like colorful stuff. Yeah. And then she doesn't invite me back. And then the time she invites me back is when she pulls me aside after it's over, and she says, You're so good at talking to people. And that's, that's what made me make a podcast.

Kasey 1:20:41
So and that's also part of why I wanted to come on the podcast besides the helping people, I was like, it'd be really cool to talk to Scott.

Scott Benner 1:20:50
Oh, that's lovely here too nice. Was it cool? Yes, of course. Of course. Don't say of course. You don't think I bought you a couple of these once in a while. Could have been yours. I just I was the other I was just last night, texting with with Isabel who helps me with the Facebook group and other things. And one of the things I texted her I was like, hey, if I ever told the story in the pockets, this is a really good story. I want to tell the shoes. You've told that on the podcast. I'm like, Are you kidding me? And she goes, Yeah, I'm like, Are you sure she was you absolutely have told this one. I was like, what about this one? And she goes, you've never said that. I'm like, Well, I'm gonna say that one day. She's like, she's like, What is this story about? I said, Oh, you have to hear it on the podcast. I'm like, I can't tell it all to you here. The long and the short of it is though, Casey, is that one summer, I tasked myself with making up two words and working them into conversations. months doing it, until one day I actually got a person to use the word. And that was I stopped I was just like, oh, I won. Over told them like I just I just kept using this word in this certain context. And then one day they used it. And she's like, is that really a story for the podcast? And like it might not be? I started a thing. Yeah. How about the time I flew to Albany was stuttering John, from the Howard Stern Show in a private plane. No, I've never told that one. One day. Not today, Casey, though. Not today. Oh, my God. All right. Well, I appreciate you doing this very much. It's nice to take the time and you were very kind. And you let me move the time. So I could go to a doctor's appointment with my wife today. And I really appreciate that too. Thank you. Sure.

Kasey 1:22:36
Of course, no problem. Cool.

Scott Benner 1:22:38
Hold on one second for me.

A huge thanks to Casey for coming on the show and sharing her story. And of course, boudoir, Father Joe for ruining my childhood and the childhoods of everyone I knew. You're definitely gonna want to check out the private Facebook group Juicebox Podcast, type one diabetes, there's over 43,000 members and right now there's a conversation going on that you could add to learn from or may just enjoy looking at on. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with someone else who you think might also enjoy it. No matter where you're listening. Even if it's not Apple podcasts, can you please check to make sure you're subscribed are following and that your player is set up to download new episodes. Thank you so much for listening. I'll be back very soon with another episode of The Juicebox Podcast. And if you're interested in that information about better help, hold on for one second. BetterHelp is the world's largest therapy service, and is 100% online. With better help, you can tap into a network of over 25,000 licensed and experienced therapist who can help you with a wide range of issues. Better help.com forward slash juicebox. To get started, you just answer a few questions about your needs and preferences in therapy. That way BetterHelp can match you with the right therapist from their network. And when you use my link, you'll save 10% On your first month of therapy. You can message your therapist at any time and schedule live sessions when it's convenient for you. Talk to them however you feel comfortable text chat phone or video call. If your therapist isn't the right fit for any reason at all. You can switch to a new therapist at no additional charge. And the best part for me is that with better help you get the same professionalism and quality you expect from in office therapy. But with a therapist who is custom picked for you, and you're gonna get more scheduling flexibility, and a more affordable price betterhelp.com forward slash juicebox that's better help h e l p.com. Forward slash juicebox save 10% On your first month of therapy

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#1074 Parenting: Creating Boundaries and Expectations

Scott and Erika talk about creating boundaries and expectations. They discuss realistic physical and emotional boundaries, empathy and self-awareness.

You can always listen to the Juicebox Podcast here but the cool kids use: Apple Podcasts/iOS - Spotify - Amazon Music - Google Play/Android  -  Radio Public, Amazon Alexa or wherever they get audio.

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DISCLAIMER: This text is the output of AI based transcribing from an audio recording. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors and should not be treated as an authoritative record. Nothing that you read here constitutes advice medical or otherwise. Always consult with a healthcare professional before making changes to a healthcare plan.

Scott Benner: Hello friends, and welcome to episode 1074 of the Juicebox Podcast. Welcome back to the fourth installment of the Parenting Series with myself and Erica Forsyth. Today's episode is Creating Boundaries and Expectations. Please remember while you're listening that nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise. Always consult a physician before making any changes to your health care plan. If you're looking to find Erica, she's at ericaforsythe.com. She can help you virtually or in person, depending on what state you live in. Erica is not just a terrific therapist. She's also a 30 plus year type one. iPhone users, please listen. If you're listening in Apple podcasts, there's been a recent update to your operating system. If you've done that update and you're on iOS 17 now, your podcast app may not be downloading the podcast the way you expect it to. Go to your podcast app, choose the show, go to the three dots in the top right corner, choose settings, go down to automatic downloads and set it to download all episodes. That way you won't miss an episode of the juice box podcast. I don't know where you're currently getting your diabetes supplies from, but Arden gets hers from US Med. usmed.com slash juicebox or call 888-721-1514. I want to personally thank US Med for being a longtime sponsor of the podcast and for sponsoring this episode. If you're interested in getting your supplies the same way we do, check out the website usmed.com slash juicebox. or call 888-721-1514. Get your free benefits check, and you'll be on your way. Just for everyone listening, I'm really excited about what we're doing here, but I'm more excited about what Erika told me she's gonna tell me after we record the podcast. Let's see, we're gonna do... Hi. Hi, Erika's like, it's me. Let's see, Erika has put together a lovely outline for today's episode. This is episode four of the parenting series, Creating Boundaries and Expectations. So why don't you walk everybody through, you kind of have like a three tiered map here for me. Tell me why you put it together the way you did.

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: Yes. Okay. So I think it's first, it'll be helpful for us to understand what is a realistic boundary or realistic rule, why we set them for our children along with why we set realistic expectations. And I think when we think about boundaries, we think for, and also I want to make sure we do this kind of in a developmental age appropriate way, but for little children, we think about boundaries usually around physical boundaries. Like don't, don't run across the street, don't touch the hot stove, keep your hands to yourself. So we think about these physical boundaries, but I also want us to make sure we think about the emotional boundaries that we set for our children. For example, a physical boundary, we, as I said, let's say, we'll start with the keep your hands to yourself. Okay, why is it important for your child to follow that rule? Well, so that they don't hurt the other child, and then they don't get hurt in response. how do we reinforce that realistic boundary with our child? And this is where I think we can get into a little bit deeper discussion is having the really emphasizing empathy and self-awareness. And I think as parents, we often think, well, empathy is like an older, more mature concept for children to get. But if we start teaching our children when we're setting these boundaries and rules and expectations about empathy and self-awareness, that helps them grow into being really responsible teens and adults.

Scott Benner: So let me ask you a question. So the idea of like, just don't put your hands on other people without permission, right? Is that teaches you to understand how the other person might feel? Right, it's more about that interaction than just, you don't touch people because you don't do it. Like, there's more to it than that.

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: That's right, that's right. So the empathy piece, so you could even do this with a two-year-old when they're learning, you know, in preschool or they're getting out in more social interactions. Like, okay, we don't put, we keep our hands to ourself. Why? Because you can, how would you feel if Johnny pushed you? they understand that concept. Another way to model that or illustrate that is when they're watching a TV show or reading a book, like, wow, look at these two little boys are arguing or two little girls are arguing and they're pushing each other. How do you think they each feel? And so constantly asking them, How do you think you would feel if your friend did that to you? That is teaching them empathy. The next piece is the self-awareness, right? So first we're wanting to demonstrate that the physical boundaries around how would the other person feel going into the other person's physical area, but then also having the self-awareness of how do you feel when someone crosses into your physical or emotional zone? And that's the self-awareness piece.

Scott Benner: So not only can you absorb it for, oh, I would not enjoy that, but then you have a deeper understanding of how they might feel, which might in turn stop you from putting your hands on them in some way. That's right. It's a real learning process. Did I do the wrong thing when I told my kids, if you hit somebody, you should expect they might hit you back? because that's kind of how I told them.

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: Well, that's that's like, you know, action and every action has consequence type of, you know, learning. Did you do the wrong thing? I think that's it's a different way of, you know, teaching them that they're the if they're if they're not being empathetic, there's there might be a consequence.

Scott Benner: Right. I was also trying to teach them like levels of thought, like, you know, say you're so upset that you push somebody. It's a great example that you used, right? I don't know that people then think, well, that will either make them upset or make them defensive. And then they're going to come back at you and you don't know what level of violence they're going to come back to you with, which led me to the next thing that I taught them was don't screw with people because you don't know how far they're willing to go. Like you don't know their story, you know, like their story in the moment or their life story, you know, a shove to you might just be like, ah, but to them it could be time for war. Like you have no idea like what their level of understanding is.

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: Yes, yes. I mean, and that's obviously a really mature concept for a child to pause when they're in the moment, their adrenaline's going and they want to reach out, right? But teaching them the social skills in the moment is really the most effective way for them to learn and practice right then. But obviously going back and teaching them the correct way to act in that moment is also helpful. So there's this Yes, kind of give and take of like, okay, how would you feel if someone did that action to you? And then the self-awareness pieces, how do I feel, right? Like how am I feeling if someone touches me or pushes me or says something that I really, I don't feel good about when they say that to me? Right. and being able to then advocate for yourself, right? Say, oh, that doesn't feel good physically or emotionally. Understanding A, what that feels like for role-playing, modeling for your child, and then giving them the skills and the verbiage to say, gosh, please stop. I don't like that.

Scott Benner: So these are skills, the earlier they're taught, you're talking about repetition, the earlier they're taught, the more likely they are to be able to bake them into their lives, and you are gonna need them as an adult. You are going to be a 35-year-old person one day that needs to turn to your mom and go, it doesn't feel good when you say that. I know you're saying it for this reason, I'm trying to take it that way, but it makes me feel poorly, here's why. Everybody who has diabetes has diabetes supplies. but not everybody gets them from USMed, the way we do. usmed.com forward slash juicebox, or call 888-721-1514. USMed is the number one distributor for Freestyle Libre Systems nationwide. They are the number one specialty distributor for Omnipod Dash, the number one fastest growing tandem distributor nationwide, and they always provide 90 days worth of supplies and fast and free shipping. That's right, USMed carries everything from insulin pumps to diabetes testing supplies right up to your latest CGMs like the Freestyle Libre 2 and 3 and the Dexcom G6 and 7. They even have Omnipod Dash and Omnipod 5. They have an A-plus rating with the Better Business Bureau and you can reach them at 888-721-1514 or by going to my link usmed.com forward slash juicebox. When you contact them, You get your free benefits check, and then if they take your insurance, you're off and going. And U.S. Med takes over 800 private insurers and Medicare nationwide. Better service and better care is what U.S. Med wants to provide for you. USmed.com forward slash juicebox. Get your diabetes supplies the same way Arden does from USmed. Links in the show notes, links at juiceboxpodcast.com to USmed and all the sponsors. When you use my links, you're supporting the show.

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: Yes, I mean, these are like such crucial skills to give your child to, yes, understand how the other person's feeling, but also understand when your boundary is crossed physically or emotionally and being able to advocate for yourself in that way and not become like, it's okay, it's okay, and want to avoid conflict or people pleasing, all of those things.

Scott Benner: Yeah, what else do you get out of telling a person how their actions or words make you feel. Is there a resolution that happens for you when you do that?

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: So you, well the resolution is hopefully that the person doesn't continue. And I think this can even, I know we're talking about this in like child to child interaction, but even in a parent-child dynamic, when you're setting a boundary or the child's trying to communicate, do you, one of the common examples that you might hear or read about is like, you know, you like to tickle the kid and the kid's like laughing, laughing, laughing, laughing. And then he's like, stop, stop, stop. And you think they're kind of joking. I mean, I remember this as a kid too. And it is kind of funny and fun, but then at some point, you also get to teach your child like, okay, are you saying no? Is this a boundary? Have I crossed it? Is this fun or funny? But then teaching the kid how to tell your child to say, no, this is, okay, please stop now. I'm done. And so then the resolution is you're teaching the child that you're also validating what they're saying to you, and you're listening to them. So you're teaching them boundary setting, self-advocacy, and in a bigger parent-child dynamic, I hear you, I see what you're saying, and I'm going to stop, and I'm going to validate your needs.

Scott Benner: They get to see what it feels like to be respected, and therefore may be more likely to respect people in return, knowing what good feeling it delivers to them.

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: Yes, absolutely. And wanting to reinforce that over and over by offering and then saying, wow, I thank you so, you know, I really appreciate that you, because oftentimes I know as a parent, we might feel like, oops, I crossed the line. I messed up, or I'm not going to really listen to the child. They're probably just being silly, but praising, saying, wow, thank you so much for communicating what you really needed in that moment. And if you did cross their own physical or emotional boundary, it's okay to say, I'm sorry, I did that. So then you're modeling, it's like we're constantly trying to model because they do what they see.

Scott Benner: I find telling my kids that I appreciate that they shared something with me is really helpful. It's hard to do because it always happens in the worst moments. It always happens in a moment where you're like, oh, I messed that up. You're just sitting there thinking, I didn't do this right, and now look where we've gotten. They, you know, have the courage to express it to you. And that's when you really got to just swallow the rest of whatever's going on in your head and just say, I appreciate you telling me that, you know, I'll I'll remember next time. And if I don't, tell me again, please. Because I don't I don't mean to do this.

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: Yes.

Scott Benner: Stuff. People's intentions are generally good. They're just execution is usually the crappy part. So, yes.

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: I think modeling that and then modeling to your if and your partner, you get to practice the physical boundary setting, excuse me, the emotional boundary setting, when let's say you're engaged in a conflict and you maybe have crossed some boundaries to check in and say, you know, this is what I hear you say, or did I make a mistake? Did I offend you? How can we move forward? And so children also get to see you model that like, okay, oops, there were some boundaries crossed. They said some things. because, you know, kids are going to hear us have conflicts sometimes, that's okay, to then practice that repair work when we do cross some of those emotional boundaries for them.

Scott Benner: Okay. Physical boundaries, advocating for yourself, emotional listening to others, being empathetic. I feel like that's covered, but do you have more to say about that or are we good on that part?

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: I think this piece too, yes, I skipped. As a young child in elementary school, they're learning how to listen to the teacher, they're learning how to listen to their friends, and how to put their empathy hat, so to speak, on in those moments to tell them, you know, it's really important to listen to other people when they're speaking, just as you want other people to hear your needs. You want people to understand how you're feeling and what's really important to you. And that's why we want to also listen to other people, just kind of constantly putting on that like empathy. How does it feel when someone physically crosses your line and how does it feel when someone doesn't really listen to what you're trying to say? And that's often when we see, you know, There's all sorts of behaviors, tantrums, right? If they don't really know, A, how to communicate what they're feeling, but then also when they're feeling like, hey, no one's really getting what I'm trying to say. Instructing, modeling for them. I really, it's so important to listen to other people just as you want people to listen to you.

Scott Benner: I think it's incredibly important. I'm 52, and it still bothers me like I'm five years old if it feels like somebody's not listening to me. And that has to be from the way I grew up. So if you don't want your kid to feel like that 50 years from now, do what Erica is saying now, skip all that problem for them. I mean, it's not a thing that I'm not crippled by it or anything like that, but I can feel like at the very center of the back of my brain, it's upsetting to me to feel like I'm not being heard. And I don't even mean like in the podcast, I mean like in personal relationships. You know what I mean? Like here, it's fine. I say what I say and you'll listen or you won't, it's fine. But, um, but, but I mean, like in my personal relationships, if I don't feel, if I don't feel understood, I'm off balance until I can figure it out. It's interesting.

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: So, and then as a result, I imagine though, you've learned when that boundary has either been crossed or not met, you're then able to maybe articulate like, Hey, I don't, I feel like my needs aren't being met or you're not hearing me.

Scott Benner: Yeah, I mean, I can feel it coming, but it doesn't always stop. You're not listening. You're not hearing what I'm saying. And the closer I feel to you, the worse it feels when it happens. And it's not like a bad thing. It's not like somebody's willfully not listening to me. I don't think that actually even happens in my life. But if I try to explain myself to my wife, for example, and she's not understanding how I feel, and if she's not understanding my intent, but more importantly is, in my opinion, misrepresenting what I'm doing, I'm almost a little crushed. I'm like, no, that's not what I'm saying. And then it's frustrating that I apparently can't say what I feel in a way that is receivable by another person. And then it's just like it's a spiral from there. Yes. Anyway, I mean, so you tell me I could just do these things. Somebody could have done this with you. And I was like, for I would have not gone through this. I would have been amazing. Well, let's dig my mom up and yell at her. I'm just kidding. My mom's been dead long enough for us to joke about it, hasn't she? No. Oh, stop. It's fine. She would have thought it was funny. OK, OK, OK.

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: Moving on.

Scott Benner: modeling behavior for children, and then the idea of reflective listening that I always kind of need just maybe described to me.

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: Yeah, so that's again, that is you can feel so validated and someone you can more easily empathize with someone when what you were just describing, the example, when you share how you're feeling with somebody and either A, you're not either communicating it clearly or B, the person isn't able to understand it and for whatever reason, then that's when maybe your wife could say, this is what I hear you say. and then you get the opportunity to say, no, this is, I'm saying, I feel this way. And you keep going until you've been able to articulate exactly, you know, I feel this way when, and then the person who's practicing the reflective listening says, I hear you say that you feel this way when. Right. And again, I know we've talked about this in the communication episode. It feels silly, but it can feel connecting and you're just validating and then you're under, you're really able to empathize with the person because you're like, wow, okay, so you feel really disappointed or sad when I do this thing.

Scott Benner: I just want to tell guys that in most of your married situations, the last sentence will be spoken by your wife who feels a certain way and it negates all the ways you feel. And then you lose and it's over. And I know it's not about winning and losing. I take my victories morally. When I see on her face she gets it, I don't even sometimes ask her to say it out loud. I'm like, that's enough, she knows. It's not important for her to say it out loud. And I don't mean like winning and losing. And I think that's important because I'm sure I do the same thing. Like, I've heard you now. I know you're right. And whatever that is inside of you, I can't get it out to say I'm wrong. But anyway, it's important. That's why it's so important to do this stuff with the kids, because it gets harder and harder the older you get. And I think people could get concerned, too, if they're going to raise soft children. Do you know what I mean? Well, I don't want my kid being a marshmallow and just taking people's crap, et cetera. Those are not the same two things, in my opinion. Being able to stick up for yourself and being concerned with how other people feel and understanding how you make other people feel, those two things are not the same thing to me. That's right.

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: having empathy for other people is really a powerful tool and also understanding how you feel in certain situations is equally as powerful for yourself and for your relationships, right? And so to not only have the reflective listening skill as a parent to your child, but partner to partner, I think Ultimately, what you're doing is building that relationship, and it's from the parent-child perspective. You are telling them and showing them, I am here for you, I hear what you're saying, and then they become empowered, too, as they grow up, to not become a marshmallow, but to say, you know what? I can communicate what I feel and what I need in a healthy way, and I can also empathize with others.

Scott Benner: Listen, I'm no physical force, but I think if you listen to this podcast, you can hear that I'm an incredibly empathetic person. I put myself in other people's shoes constantly. I spent a lot of my life trying to help other people to feel better. But if we were out in public and shit got sideways, I'd stand right up with everybody else. And I don't think those two things, like, I just don't think they're mutually exclusive, you know? But I do think that you could hear this as a young parent and think, I'm not going to turn my kid into a pushover by doing this. And I really don't think that's what happens. I think actually the exact opposite ends up happening. So they get better in conflict resolution. Like, you're going to raise a kid who can be in a group of five people who are having a problem and step out of it a little bit, and they can see what's happening. You know, like, I know why this person's upset. I know why this person's upset. You're going to create a person who's a mediator as well as, you know, a leader. Honestly, I think. But I don't know, Erika. That's just me and my silly podcast. No, I think...

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: I mean, having the ability to identify and verbalize how you're feeling and understand how other people are feeling, it's a hard skill. And if we all could do that perfectly, there would be no issue anytime, ever.

Scott Benner: Yeah, listen, if you want to have a really popular podcast, I'd learn that one if I was you. It's very helpful. It's just interesting to talk about how a parenting decision for a three-year-old could impact a 50-year-old person's life, because I don't think we stop to think about that stuff. You know, or frequently enough, maybe don't think about it. You say, oh, I'll give them good tools and they'll turn into good people. But here's a concrete example of how that can happen. You know, I don't know. Like, my parents didn't teach it to me. I learned it along the way. If Arden doesn't get diabetes, I don't get involved in this space. I don't learn to have... I had more of a caregiver's mentality before Arden's diabetes. Like, if you were related to me, I would take good care of you. But I didn't particularly give a crap about other people. And now, like, this whole thing is... Like I used to tell people like I was not a chicken soup for the soul person before I started this whole thing. And now, like, you know, I had to teach myself how not to feel everyone's pain. I'm so connected to so many people, you know, and that even was anyway. Well, I'm sorry, I'm getting Erica off track. She's looking at me like I made this great list. Now you're chatting.

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: You've got a good master's level, you know.

Scott Benner: psychology but everybody can get that just by watching the people around them and not it has to be more important for you to understand what's really happening than to lay your feelings over top of what is happening and color that situation with how you see it it's not it's not really important how you see it it's important what's actually happening I don't know if that makes sense or not.

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: Yes, but it does become important, this goes back to your own boundaries, when your boundaries are crossed, right? Yeah. Emotionally, physically, and then to be able to know how to speak and articulate that, verbalize that, yeah.

Scott Benner: I'm not letting anybody walk all over me, but I'm willing to understand. Trust me, if what you think is harmful to me, Well, you found my line then. Now I don't care how you feel anymore. Now I'm on Scott's side. So your last bit here, validating emotions for this piece.

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: Yes, I think we'll get into this point a little bit later in this episode and in the following episode. But I think as we're thinking about setting appropriate healthy boundaries and expectations for our children and offering praise in the midst of all of that, right? So as they're learning how to set physical and emotional boundaries, they're learning how to meet certain expectations. We want to offer the praise in the moment of like, wow, you're doing a really good job. in this growth area, but that you're not just like we as parents, we've already kind of mentioned this, we're not always going to do it perfectly. And then inserting the lesson of self-compassion, right? To say, gosh, you know, we're not always going to do everything right. We are going to step on, we are going to push our friends physically or emotionally sometimes. We're going to learn how to correct that. And then we're going to practice that self-compassion piece and not just be like, ah, I'm a terrible parent, I'm a terrible kid, I can never get it right, meeting these boundaries and expectations. And so I just wanted to slide that in there too, like it's okay to model that for your child as a parent, but also teach that to your child.

Scott Benner: Short memory, right? Yeah. There's an episode going up with you and I next week. which means nothing. I shouldn't have said it like that here, because people would be like, next week. It was six months ago if you're hearing this. But it's about, like, I drug you on here one day and I was like, I want to talk about how people compare things. And we got into this long conversation that by the time we were done, kind of boiled down to, you know, a Hall of Fame hitter bats about 300, and that I see this piece like that. What you're calling self-compassion, I say, I mean, 3 in 10 is not bad. You know what I mean? You're going to fail more than you succeed, that kind of idea, and not to beat yourself up over those things. And what they tell a hitter in baseball is you have to have a short memory. which just means like you fail, you move on, you don't look back. I mean, this seems like obvious stuff to say out loud until you try to put it into practice in your life. And then it's maybe not as easy. Anyway, but the ones that come out on top are the ones that master that idea. Truly, you know. Okay, so moving on. Addressing the negative impacts of demanding perfectionism and having unrealistic standards. Wow. Thank God you're here. Yes. Seriously.

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: So this is a biggie. This is a biggie. Yeah.

Scott Benner: Go ahead, please.

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: I'm glad to be here. This is really challenging. So as we think about perfection, I wanted to kind of just highlight that there's different types of perfectionism. There's the self-oriented perfectionism when we're demanding perfection from ourselves. This is kind of self-explanatory. There's other oriented perfectionism when we're demanding perfection from others. And then there's the socially prescribed perfectionism when we think everyone around us is demanding perfection from us, which then maybe kind of goes into the self-oriented perfectionism.

Scott Benner: Give them to me again. Give me the three again, just real quick.

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: Okay, so self-oriented perfectionism, other-oriented, and then socially prescribed.

Scott Benner: Okay. Thank you. I just wanted to make a note for myself. The socially prescribed one sounds dangerous to my mental health, but let's, let's hear what you're going to say.

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: Yes, absolutely. And okay. So thinking about these, the negative impacts and of how we might be demanding perfectionism as a parent to our child, that's how we're going to look at this. So if we are demanding or expecting a perfection from our children, they are gonna constantly feel like there's unrealistic standards and they're not gonna meet them over and over and over again. And then they're gonna eventually, I mean, this is not every child, but this is pretty common, that they then will believe that they're never good enough. And we've talked about that statement, right? Like that mindset of, I'm never gonna be a good enough fill in the blank. And so they're thinking, okay, mom and dad expect me to have straight A's, or such and such number A1C, or to be, you know, whatever it is. And without maybe having, usually this happens without really a whole lot of awareness, but as a parent you're expecting perfection, they're gonna struggle to meet those unrealistic standards. And because of that struggle of never meeting this, because there is no such thing as meeting those perfectionistic standards, they are gonna develop that concept, gosh, no matter what I do, I'm never gonna be good enough. I'm never gonna meet my parents' expectations. And obviously that there's a snowball effect in that mindset that we've talked about before.

Scott Benner: Do you think that parents actually have, overwhelmingly have that expectation of perfection? Or do you think it's the fear as a parent that you don't want potential to be wasted and that effort finds potential? But then it gets misinterpreted by the kid or by the way you deliver it. Do you think that's what really happened? How many people do you think are running around going, I want my kid to be perfect? You know what I mean?

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: Yeah, we don't. We don't. We say we want our child, we want to do the best. Just go out and do your best or do better. So I think go out and do your best isn't necessarily negative, but when we say to our child, okay, just go out and do your best on that test or do your best in that game, and then they come back and they can pick up very small cues on our face of like, Oh, because we might have an expectation that the best is 100% or the best is winning the game or getting strikes, whatever. So they are going to pick up even if we're like, no, we just want our child to do the best. We don't have high standards, but then we're like, oh, did you try your best? I think you, did you study hard enough? Yeah. Were you, were you focused during the game? Now, again, I know there are times when maybe this, these reflections are appropriate, right? So this is, but I'm, I'm generally globally stereotyping if we're consistently saying, go do your best or do better, you can do better.

Scott Benner: And then questioning if they did that. Right. Yes.

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: Yeah. Then they're learning, oh, I actually studied for hours for weeks and, or I've been practicing every day. I did my, that was my best.

Scott Benner: And if it wasn't, how the hell do I find what my best is? Because this feels like I've given everything I have. Right. And by the way, I guess even if they haven't given everything they have, if they still feel that way, then you're telling them there's more, but they don't know the pathway to it.

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: Yes. Yes.

Scott Benner: Yes. That was big.

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: That was big. I got it.

Scott Benner: Yeah, wow. And how do you think about that in the moment when really what you're trying to say to the kid is, like, just could you watch the ball, please? Like, just stop looking away in the middle of the abat, if you could. Yeah, I know. Isn't that crazy?

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: And this is, and I know we'll get into this too, because I'm thinking about like the counterpoint is, but if we're always saying you did your great job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job all the time, then, you know, finding that balance is difficult, right? Like you want, you want your child to do their best and apply themselves. However, we also need to be in check with what does that actually look like and feel like?

Scott Benner: Yeah, and what does the best mean? The best means for you. Do your best, not the best. Do you know what I mean? I'll keep going back to baseball because I just watched my son go through it forever and ever. You can be the best baseball player on your high school team and be nowhere near the best baseball player in the world, but that kid's now achieved their potential. They're a really good high school baseball player. you can't keep telling them, well, there's people doing better than you. There's always someone doing better than you. And if we're chasing that forever and ever, you know, to take maybe what might seem like a weird left turn for a second, there's this Amazon Prime documentary up right now for this guy named Jason Kelsey, who is probably a person you don't know. And I only know probably because he snaps the ball for the Philadelphia Eagles, and I grew up in Pennsylvania and Philadelphia, okay? Okay. He's a really interesting older guy who's been in the league for a long time. And they started out by documenting what they thought was going to be his last year of his career. Turns out he's going to come back and play for another year. But inside this documentary, he's in a poker game with a bunch of retired football players, professional football players. So a bunch of people who are literally the best at what they did, right? Because even if you're the third tight end on a bad professional football team, you're one of like the best 85 tight ends on the planet. That makes you the best as far as my considerations goes. To watch these guys all sit around and stare into space and not be able to figure out what the rest of their life means and what it's like, there's no more excellence to chase. Like they didn't just get tired of it, they made it. And now they're still alive, and they don't know what to do. And I think that's not a good thing to instill in your kids. Because those 85 guys, they've reached the mountaintop, and they're probably wealthy. They also probably get headaches a lot, and maybe will die earlier. But nevertheless, they've made it as far as they're going to make it in this situation, right? But for every one of those guys, there has to be tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of other boys who thought they were going to be the best tight end on the blah, blah, blah, who are still right now living their life feeling like failures because of something you told them when they were seven. And that's where my bigger concern comes from. But that's my example for why you might not want to tell your kids. that they're trying to achieve perfection. So anyway, I don't, does that make sense to you?

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: Yes. I think the, and I mean, we obviously, we see that example a lot in sports, you know, children wanting to be pro athletes or, you know, superstars. And I think there's that, again, that fine line, striking that balance between like wanting to do your best, but also accepting some reality.

Scott Benner: Of who you are. Yeah. Yeah.

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: Of your identity and your strengths.

Scott Benner: Right. I did the best I could do. That's pretty amazing. Now I got to go find a new thing to like to try to achieve. And that, listen, there's a 10 part podcast series in the six months that I watched my son let go of playing baseball and move on to something else. You have no idea how scared I was during that time. that he wouldn't be able to do that, you know? And listen, my kid played baseball in college, which somehow makes him one of the best 9,000 baseball players in the country, and he was nowhere near being one of the guys you see on television. So, like, nowhere near. Like, they describe, and I think this is for everything, but they describe playing baseball as trying to climb a pyramid. Right, like when you start and everyone's at the base, so many people fit around the pyramid. But every time you take a step up and you're trying to get to the point, fewer and fewer people fit on the pyramid. Yeah, my kid was pretty far up that pyramid. But the amount of people between him and the tip was astronomical in his reality.

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: Mm hmm.

Scott Benner: it's not a thing you want to hang somebody with for the rest of their life. Like I consciously thought about it for years. Like when this is over, how do we make sure he doesn't end up a guy sitting at a card table, staring at a wall, wondering what the hell he's supposed to do with his life? Cause this is all he thinks life is, you know? Anyway, I'm sorry. That was a rabbit hole. I apologize.

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: No, I think it was a good, some good illustrations of how, you know, the negative impacts, right, of of this expectation of perfection, even when we're we're thinking we're not doing that, that we're just we're just encouraging our children to do their best.

Scott Benner: Well, in a reality where there's 300 guys who are pro baseball players and a handful of people who are billionaires and like, you know, a handful of people who are beautiful. I know we think everybody's beautiful because of Instagram. Most of us look like me. when the idea is that no one's going to make it to the tip of the pyramid anyway. I'm not saying don't try. I'm saying when you get halfway up the pyramid, make a cup of tea, sit back, and appreciate what you did for a little while, you know? And that's all I got. I'm sorry. Where are we at here?

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: I lost the list. We're trying to set the bar just right. Oh, okay.

Scott Benner: Yeah, go ahead.

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: So again, I know we want our children to excel in where they apply themselves. And so when we're thinking about setting the bar, we don't want to set it too high or too low. Again, I know this feels like it can be challenging at times, but when we are setting the bar too high, then the children And we see this a lot. There's a lot of anxiety in our teens currently, partially due to post-pandemic issues, ripple effects, but this pressure to perform and produce and achieve and excel. And so they're living with this constant stress and pressure. So that's if we're setting the bar too high, even without knowing for our children. And then when we set the bar too low, they also can develop this criticism or self-criticism or stress because we might be saying, we set the bar low, and then we're kind of saying to our children, but you can do, you can do better than that, right? So like we're trying to maybe overcompensate and not developing any kind of anxiety in our children by setting the bar low, but then we're constantly saying, like, come on, you could have done better. And so then they're feeling like they're letting you down, they have this personal sense of failure, and that contributes to more thoughts of self-esteem and anxiety. It's hard. It's really hard to find that right balance.

Scott Benner: Also, as a parent, you might be very aware of your own wasted potential. And now you're older and you're really like, oh, God, I could have done this. I could have done that. Like these little steps would have made a big difference to me. You're trying to get that over them. You know, I think that one of the hardest things I've encountered being somebody's parent is the fear of the unknown, is doing the right thing without an assurance that the right thing is going to happen afterwards. Does that make sense? Like, I'm going to do the right thing, and I'm going to hope that this goes well. Because if you can't let go of that, then you get this feeling in your head that you can direct reality. and control. Yeah, I'll control how this ends up. And it feels like, well, I'll control how this ends up so it gets to the right place. But what if you get to the right place, but you've done so much damage along the way that they can't even enjoy being in the correct in the place you wanted them to be? It's almost better. I'm going to sound like a hippie. It's almost better. Also, Does anyone use that word anymore besides me and a couple other people? But I think it's almost better to just let your kid be a happy, good representation of who they are and hope that they drift through the ether in the right direction. And I think they will, right? Like a well-stocked boat should make it to shore. And will a couple of them crash in the waves? They will, but if you're behind them the whole time going, turn here, turn here, do this, you're just going to turn them into a neurotic mess to begin with. So what does winning look like? I think winning at the end looks like healthy and happy.

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: Well, and then they maybe they made it to the coordinates, but they also found their way on their own, which which, by the way, that allows you to, like, do another thing.

Scott Benner: You know, Arden's trying to do something right now at college. And and I supported it a little. But then there were places in it where I thought, I'm going to let her take care of this because there's growth potential in these things. You know, setting this up, understanding how it works, that will help her to utilize the tool better moving forward. But she needs a physical item to get there. I'll send the physical item. So I'm like, here, here's a tool. Now you learn how to use it. But she asked me, how do I do this? And I sent her a link. I was like, this explains it. but you need to go figure it out yourself." And she said, thank you, and she moved on. Now, if this all doesn't work out, I could step back and say, oh, I could have held her hand through it, but then we don't know where else she ends up. Do you know what I mean? Like, what does she get from this or learn about herself? Maybe she'll pivot and end up doing something different with what she learned. It's not the initial goal, but maybe it's a new, better goal. There you go.

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: That's it. Yes, yes.

Scott Benner: I smell like petroleum oil now. There's a reference no one gets.

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: I know petroleum oil.

Scott Benner: You're from California. It's different.

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: Yes. It was alive and well in Laguna beach where I grew up. Yes. Um, I think the setting the bar I know is so challenging and it's hard. I mean, I, obviously I immediately think of all of the examples with our, you know, diabetes management piece. And one thing I know that we want to achieve the perfection, whatever that is, but I think there's been such great dialogue and understanding to eliminate that perfect number, perfect time and range. What a great way you can model for your child. If you are the one caregiving for your child in their management, their diabetes management, Like if you're constantly, we might think that they're not watching us, but if we're looking at their numbers or their graphs and we're thinking, gosh, I'm totally messed up there. We're never going to get this right because I know there's so much pressure on wanting to keep your child healthy and alive. but to model for your child so that when they are growing up and starting to take control of their own management, say, gosh, whoops, we goofed here, but we know we'll figure it out next time or we know how to correct here. Because I know that there's so much fear in not having tight management, but also to give yourself the release of not having that perfect time and range, but also for your child to see you do that, then they get to learn, you know, I'm going to do my best here and there, but there are going to be times when I'm not going to figure it out. And I'm going to be on the roller coaster. And so then they get all like, Oh yeah, I saw dad do that one time. Like he messed up and he didn't like,

Scott Benner: have a stroke. Yeah. Yeah.

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: I mean, I get I get why we do that. But it's such a great way to have your children learn how to imitate that self-compassion again.

Scott Benner: I don't imagine this is like coming to a surprise as a surprise to anyone. But this whole series here, when I thought about it, I just thought we would talk about parenting and then people could listen to it, then lay it over top of diabetes because it's the same thing. You know, like it really is. There are very few things in the world that aren't Core ideas and you know, I just thought this was a nice way to kind of bundle two things together Even though we don't feel like we're talking about diabetes. I think that's all we're talking about. Yes while we're talking about this, so Anyway, okay.

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: So where are we at here on your we are we can move on to finding the right balance between discipline and understanding, okay, so

Scott Benner: All right. So we learned we don't hit people. I'm just kidding. It's not the seventies. You can't just hit me with a stick. If you want me to do something that doesn't, that doesn't work anymore. By the way, that probably doesn't work anymore at all. Kids are probably like, I have phone numbers. I can get out of here. I have a job. My tick tock makes 10,000 a month. I don't have to live here.

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: Oh gosh. Okay. So this kind of goes back to, you know, we talked about the different parenting styles in our first episode and wanting to try and strike again, striking the balance between having discipline, having consequences around the boundaries or expectations that you're setting or rules that you're setting for your children, while also pairing that with understanding validation fund. So I know that we talked about, if you're in the parenting style, like I'm the boss, they're going to do what I say, no matter what, I don't care how they think or feel about it. They're going to follow these rules and they're going to live within these boundaries and expectations I have for them. Then the counterpoint would be, well, aren't they just going to rebel because they don't want to be so confined? Maybe. But then the other opposite end of the spectrum is, we'll just let them figure it out. We're just going to understand their kids. They make mistakes and we're going to understand and validate over and over and over again. But then the counterpoint to that is, then kids really, there's a lot of different mental health issues that come along with that parenting style as well. And freedom to make choices, which is healthy, but when they don't understand there's any consequences to some of their choices or decisions, that also leads to problematic behavior. And so wanting to strike, sorry, go ahead.

Scott Benner: I'm just going to share something I recorded last week. I'm going to keep the details light. I was talking to an adult in their late twenties. I'm not trying to be funny, who has a specific like kink in their life, like a sexual quirk, right? That as I'm talking to them clearly comes from how they were raised. And 45 minutes into the conversation, I bring that up. And the person does not see the connection between the two at all. It's so obvious, but not to them. And it felt like that was important to put into here for some reason. Like, not that your kid's going to end up in an S&M dungeon, that's not what I was trying to say. What I'm trying to say is that you could lead somebody in a direction and they won't know what happened to them. And so they have no ability to course-correct, because this feels right to them. Even though it started with a bad thing, that person was empowered by this thing. And I mean, I'm only one person, but from my perspective, Had they not been abused as a child, I don't think they'd be in this situation right now. And I'm not saying the situation's bad or good. Like, if you're out there and you like to have your ass slapped, I'm not saying, I'm judging you. I'm saying that, like, sorry, this is what the conversation, you should go find, it's a great episode. It's one of the best episodes I've ever recorded, actually. But the point is, is that the cause and effect, I think, is so far apart in time that the mind can't even connect the two things. Plus, you have to defend yourself Against the abuse by empowering yourself. Does that make sense? It's like you take the bad thing you turn it into your power, which is understandable what would have been better is if the person didn't hit her to begin with and and so Anyway, I think that's what we're talking about here But there's a real-world example of what it could look like 25 years later is is what I'm saying. I

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: Yes, yes. I mean, again, going back to the self-awareness piece, you brought some self-awareness to her in that reflection in the recording. And part of that, hopefully your word encouraging some self-awareness too in some of our parenting styles and routines. We don't, we just do. And also because we're tired, we're stressed. We have our own baggage that we're carrying. And sometimes we just parent out of a natural space and energy. And so I think it's, we're hoping that by just pausing and reflecting and bringing some self-awareness, like, oh, maybe I do, I do generally parent this way or the other, right?

Scott Benner: Well, that's a very kind statement from you. It's not anything more than what I would expect and I agree with you. But I do want to say this, and I'm somebody's parent two times over. It's a big responsibility you took on. And in the end, I don't know where Erica's going to stand on my statement, I don't want to hear about your problems. Like, go do the right thing. Like, you said you were going to do this. They're here. go do it now. Like, maybe you don't get to be as rested, or as happy, or whatever the hell else. But you're here now, you did this thing, these kids are here, they deserve a shot. Maybe you gotta swallow hard and, you know, take one for the team sometimes. It's nice to think that we can all be happy, but, I mean, Wouldn't it be cool if we could just set the next group up to be happy and feel fulfilled by the fact that we sent another generation of people on a better path than the one we were on, rather than like, you know, I would've liked to have paid attention, but I needed to get some sleep so I could get some overtime, because I deserve to go on vacation. I haven't been on a goddamn vacation in 10 years. I'm busy parenting two children. It's hard, you know what I mean? So I want to be happy too, but at whose expense at some point? Does that make sense?

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: Yes, I think being able to what you're wanting them to be healthy, happy and healthy, and you're wanting to be happy and healthy as a parent. And I think the we're not going to be able to be this model perfect parent all the time. And sometimes you are going to need to take a break or sleep or yell a million percent.

Scott Benner: I'm just saying if someone gets screwed, it's you, not them. Like that's that's just got to be like, I mean, if you're making a decision, them, and it's you over them, I gotta tell you, I don't understand your decision. So, you know, it's done now. You had a baby. Here it is. It didn't turn out the way you expected? Too bad. You gotta do the right thing. Keep doing the right thing. Because one day, it all just comes back to you. It really will. Maybe you're not going to have the exact life you wanted when you were 25, but you'll wake up in 10 years and be like, oh my god, I've got this reasonable child who's happy and on a good path. And then you get to be happy too. You have no idea how easy and joyful and There are just more words that need to be attributed to this, but my life with my son is. Like, just how our back and forth is, and it's, maybe it won't pay you today, it's definitely gonna pay you tomorrow, I guess maybe is my bigger point. You might have to sacrifice, maybe I should have just said, you may have to sacrifice a little now for later, but what you get later is more than payback. You know, that's how I see it anyway.

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: Yes, yes. Yes, sacrificing now. I think as parents, probably most parents listening to this podcast are feeling that way, that they are sacrificing, that they are working really hard, that they're doing their best. And I think the way to find that balance between the understanding, maybe offering too much leniency or freedom in your child's behavior or choices versus I'm the parent, I'm going to do this." And then trying to find, not being a perfectionist parent, there's so many different things to filter through, is just keep communicating, whether your child is one, two, 10, 20, keeping that line of communication open in terms of, wow, I understand you really don't like this rule. this is still a rule, and I need you to follow it, but tell me how you feel about it. Or, wow, I see that you're working really hard in this area, and I'm really proud of you. And keep it up. We're all practicing, right? We're all practicing to do our best, and to communicate with our children in that space, as we're learning how to parent, just as much as they're learning how to be children. It's hard.

Scott Benner: No, I mean it's incredibly difficult.

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: But I hear your point too, like we do need to like, we're all grinding it out, you know, trying to figure it out.

Scott Benner: It's hard for a reason, and that doesn't mean you get to give up in the middle. I don't know, because when you give up, I mean, you're giving them away. You really are. You might not see it that way, but you're gonna at least put it on them to try to figure it out on their own, and then it's a coin flip whether they get it straight as an adult or not. You have a real opportunity to push people off into their life in a valuable direction. Forget the right direction, a valuable direction that might lead them to the things you're hoping for. This is your shot right here. I mean, it's just how it seems to me. I don't know. It's a difficult thing to do and for good reasons, but I mean, don't bemoan the fact that it's hard. You had to expect this. Like, no. And if you didn't, I'm sorry, but here you are. You know, you got to work hard at this. It's just, I don't know. I'm torn sometimes between saying to people, like, here, these are good things to do. I mean, you've gone over so many valuable things here. But in the end, you can't just say, oh, it didn't go my way. Like, you know, there are certain things you could have done to maybe help that. And along the way, I've seen over the years, a lot of people make excuses for why they couldn't do hard things. Now their kids are a train wreck and they're gone I did my best and I and sometimes I look and I go I don't know if you did or not like I was watching Sometimes it didn't look like didn't look like you were trying even let alone your like your real effort here And not to say that you could also be listening going, look, I'm trying as hard as I can, and it's not going right. But to me, that's a good indicator. If you're putting your whole ass into this, like you're really trying, and every day you wake up and it's getting further and further away from a valuable ending, it's a good time to step back and say to yourself, maybe I don't know what I'm doing, right? Because I'm trying as hard as I can. But if you're trying to saw a hole through a wall with a screwdriver, it's going to take forever. And if your ideas aren't getting you to where you want to go, what a perfect time to reach out to someone else and help get an assessment of what your decisions are and maybe how you could make ones that would end up in a different situation. Does that make sense?

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: Yes. If a parent is articulating and feeling frustrated, hands in the air, I'm doing the best I can, but gosh, my relationship with my child is not the way I want it to be, or I'm just exhausted, burnt out. I can't keep going. I'm in this giving up space. which we might all feel as parents throughout the day or season. I think that's a great thought to then, that's where the self-awareness piece comes in, of like, gosh, you know what, maybe I'm not perfect, but I also don't want to give up, and I'm going to be kind to myself, and I need to ask for help.

Scott Benner: I need help. Work smarter, not harder sometimes. It's possible you're just not good at this, or whatever we're talking about, like diabetes, or Parenting or anything like if you're putting that much honest effort into something and getting no results You're probably doing the wrong thing and don't even know it. So how do I go find somebody? You know not to bring this person up again but the person I was talking to I was telling that story about earlier is a parent and Making like incredible strides for themselves as a parent I said, where did you learn that given that you grew up in such a terrible situation? boy, she found classes given at local hospitals, by therapists doing pro bono work. She wanted to do a better job for her kid. And even though she didn't know what the hell that looked like, she went and found other people to teach her what that looked like. And I was just very impressed, like really, really impressed. She realized, I don't have the tools. I need somebody to explain to me what to do. And then she had the lack of ego to go do it. The whole thing was very impressive. So anyway, I think we could all, I could do that. There's things I don't know that I have to go to other people and find out about all the time. And I'm sure that happens to you and everyone else. Yeah, of course. But at some point, You can't just keep saying, well, I'm working really hard and that kid's a little asshole. It's obviously their fault. Maybe not. That's all I'm saying. And some, you know, I mean, kids can be, it's hard. Well, it is.

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: Yes. And it's so hard. I mean, just that step that you just shared about what this person did. That takes so much effort and energy and courage too, to say, I need help. And then I'm going to spend the time and effort, particularly if I need, you know, maybe you don't have the resources to throw a ton of money and time at it, but she's going to find, you know, resources that she can afford or that is huge and it takes so much effort.

Scott Benner: I kept wondering, where did she get the emotional intelligence to figure this out? And it was all driven by her desire to do better for her kid. If you listen to her episode, it's a slow process. She's not out there killing it. She's incrementally getting into a better and better situation very slowly. The patience of a saint. Her life is not easy. And she doesn't act like she's being burdened she doesn't like complain about it she just gets up right she just hits the rock with the hammer and she makes a little move forward and then she wakes up six months later and things are a little brighter and then she has a terrible backslide puts her head down makes a good decision does it again and she just keeps climbing i was very very impressed with her and um i don't know like it just it's not all about like I don't want to say it's the journey, not the destination, because that sounds like something I would have read in a book in 1978 or something like that. But yeah, you know what I mean? It's the journey, not the destination. It's the way you go about it, not what you go about. And I think that's what you should be trying to teach your kids. It's beyond just do the right thing. I don't know. It's a way of thinking about being alive. And this this lady's got it, man. Somebody put her in a hole and threw cinder blocks over top of her. And she climbed out of that hole and then they pushed her back in and she climbed out of it again. And every time she climbs out of it, she's climbing out to get to that kid. And it's very, very impressive. So I'm sorry I've gotten you off track for your last.

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: Well, yes, I can't wait to listen to that episode.

Scott Benner: Yeah, it'll be called. I don't know. It's an after dark for sure. Okay. It's, it's such an interesting, I'm sorry, I can't just tell you what it's gonna be called yet. Cause I haven't produced the rest of it out yet, but it's an after dark because her story is so bizarrely like two pieces. Like the, the first half of it is about getting away from abusive family and then an abusive personal relationship. And then we pivot like 45 minutes in and talk about her They're not just sexual like things. It's just that's a lifestyle she lives around this kind of like BDSM lifestyle that she lives in. Right. And I know you think like, well, cause I thought like, how are we going to put these two thoughts together in one thing? But she originally was going to come on just to talk about her lifestyle. But when she got there, just like it seems like she does with the rest of her life, she said, I know I'm coming on for this. But man, I think I'd rather talk about how I got away from some of this abuse in my life." I said, yeah, sure. So we just switched gears and we did the abuse conversation, but then I got to the end and I thought, oh, the lifestyle thing fits the first part of the story, so I introduced it. She's the one I'm talking about who just, she did not see the connection between the two things, but then she very freely and openly pivoted and talked about the lifestyle thing. Just an incredibly impressive person. So, I hope people find it. I don't know what the hell I'm gonna call it, but it's an after dark that follows that. You'll figure it out. I mean, I'm sorry. I'd do a better job naming the episodes if I knew how, but this is what you get from me. So, anyway, but I'm sorry, we were like- Yes, I think we're- We're good?

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: We are good. I think we were gonna get into, you know, having that, the importance and significance of having consistent discipline. We were talking about having that balance between discipline, understanding, validation. And I think we'll get into the importance of having consistent consequences and what happens, you know, if we don't do that in our next episode.

Scott Benner: I think in, When we talk about recognizing patterns and breaking cycles, I want to try to remember to bring this up, so I'm going to say it here so it kind of sticks in my head as my memory, but oh my God, I just completely lost my thought. Isn't that amazing?

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: Yes.

Scott Benner: I talk too much, Erica. There's so many words bouncing around in my head. It's there. Hold on a second. Oh my God, I'm so embarrassed. It's been in my head for 20 minutes.

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: Recognizing patterns and breaking cycles.

Scott Benner: Oh, hell. Well, call this a teaser. I'll remember for the next one. I for 20 minutes have been trying to, like, remember to say something. And then I didn't make a note because my noteboard is full because my printing is terrible. I ran out of white space because I write like a child. But anyway, it'll come back. It'll come back to me. I really appreciate you doing this with me.

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: Thank you. You're welcome. Thank you.

Scott Benner: If you enjoyed this, please share it with someone else who you think might also enjoy it, and hang on for a second because I'll give you a list of the episodes you may have missed if this is your first time. For now though, let's thank Erika, and remind you to go to erikaforsythe.com, and of course USMed for sponsoring this episode of the Juicebox Podcast. US Med is where my daughter gets her diabetes supplies from, and you could too. usmed.com slash juicebox or call 888-721-1514. Get your free benefits check and get started today. This series began at episode 1049. It's an episode called Parenting, Brainstorming the Series. It's just Erica and I talking through what we want the episodes to be about. So you can kind of hear us plan out the series. But if you want to just jump in, the real episode one is at episode 1054. It's called Parenting, Understanding Parenting Styles. The next one is 1059, Parenting, Building Positive Communication. Then there was episode 1064, Parenting, Self-Care, and Personal Growth for Parents. And then, of course, today, Creating Boundaries and Expectations. And actually, let me tell you a little more about what's coming. The next episode will be called Avoiding Unintended Consequences of Inconsistent Discipline and Over-Involved Parenting. Then after that, Co-Parenting and Unified Fronts. The series won't end there, but I don't have the titles for you at the moment. So that's what's coming up. I hope you're enjoying it. Please share it with somebody. If you are absolutely tell a friend about the juice box podcast. And if you're in an Apple ecosystem, if you're in an iPhone and using Apple podcasts again, please go to the show, go to settings. go to automatic downloads and choose download all available podcasts. It's the last setting at the very bottom. When you check it out, the new operating system is keeping it so that some of you are not getting the episodes of the podcast that you would normally get. Thank you so much for listening. I'll be back soon with another episode of the juice box podcast.

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