#1061 Celiac Shock
Kathryn’s son has type 1 diabetes and celiac.
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Scott Benner 0:00
Hello friends, and welcome to episode 1061 of the Juicebox Podcast
Welcome back everybody today on the podcast Catherine is 36 years while I just use more English than that, I start over Katherine is 36 years old, a school teacher she's married the mother of three, and her four year old son has type one diabetes and celiac disease. She actually just had a baby a few weeks before we made this. Her son was diagnosed pretty early on, and the story of how they found out about the celiac is crazy. What do you hear it? While you're listening? Please remember that nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise, always consult a physician before making any changes to your health care plan. Were becoming bold with insulin. Want to save 40% off of comfortable things like this beautiful sweatshirt I'm wearing right now go to cozy earth.com and use the offer code juicebox at checkout to save 40% off of this sweatshirt, actually off of your entire order. And you get a free year supply of vitamin D and five free travel packs when you get your first order of ag one at drink ag one.com/juice box
this episode of The Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by Omni pod makers of the Omni pod dash n the Omni pod five, learn more, get a test drive and get started today at Omni pod.com/juicebox. podcast is also sponsored today by us med us med.com/juice box or call 888-721-1514 Why would you go to that link or call that number? Well to get your free benefits check and to get started today, receiving your diabetes supplies the same way we do from us met.
Kathryn 2:13
I am Katherine and I am a mom to three. my eight year old daughter, my four year old son who is our tea Wendy and celiac. And then we have a seven week old son.
Scott Benner 2:27
You just had a baby. Yes. So I that's why
Kathryn 2:31
I'm not working right now. I'm a teacher, but I am home for the rest of the school year with the baby.
Scott Benner 2:34
Get back to work. Katherine, that's enough. Three weeks.
Kathryn 2:39
It's finals week next week at our school. So as like Why Why go back at this point for finals?
Scott Benner 2:44
Yeah, yeah, no, I understand. Okay, so eight for three weeks. Wow. Eight for three weeks. Which one's the type one?
Kathryn 2:52
The four year old? Boy right for your little boy? Yep. Okay.
Scott Benner 2:58
All right. And you're married?
Kathryn 2:59
Yes. Yeah, I should say that. I've been married for 10 years. Next month.
Scott Benner 3:04
You should say that. You want to leave him out?
Kathryn 3:08
No, he he's very important. And like I said a big part of this story, too. So married 10 years next month.
Scott Benner 3:13
Okay, great. So, just for context, how old are you? 36
Wow, look at you. Think about that. You did all the things now. I mean, threes. Three, you're done. Right? Three kids?
Kathryn 3:23
Yes. Yeah. 99.9%. Sure. Right. Probably done having sex not just having kids and has well husband's gonna go take care of business.
Scott Benner 3:32
Well, look at him doing the doing the best big boy thing to do. Hmm,
Kathryn 3:35
yeah. Hey, if I have to have three kids then, which I should say I'm very happy that we had three kids. But you know, it's a lot of work and pain so he can have a couple yet. couple moments of pain.
Scott Benner 3:48
I just heard your brain say I don't want my kids to hear this one day when I say if I have to have three. Your brain was like be nicer about that. But I take your point. So Geez, how long ago was your type one diagnosed?
Kathryn 4:03
He was diagnosed March 23 of 2020. So literally the onset of COVID School got shut down like a week before and it was what was supposed to be our spring break. Nobody obviously went anywhere. And he was 17 months old when he was diagnosed.
Scott Benner 4:24
Oh wow. That happened while you guys were like while we were all still thinking we should wipe our groceries off.
Kathryn 4:29
Oh yeah. We when we noticed something was up with him. He was like leaking through his diapers up to his armpits. It was it was beyond the point where we're like, oh, maybe he just needs a bigger diaper at night. It was like he took a bath and I we have no diabetes in our family like this was a complete shock and I have no idea why I knew warning signs of diabetes. I used to read like ridiculous medical novels when I was a teenager and that's probably something you know, stuck in me but we call this pediatric Shouldn't we're like, do we even come in? We don't know what the situation is anymore. And yeah, she had us come in and his blood sugar was and I heard this through the, through the wall. I heard her on the phone with the Children's Hospital. And I don't even didn't even know what a good blood sugar versus a bad blood sugar was. But I heard like 483 I was like, Okay, that sounds bad. If she's on the phone with the hospital before she even comes back in to talk to me.
Scott Benner 5:24
That's a horrible way to find out where your your head wasn't up against the door or something. Right?
Kathryn 5:29
Like, apparently it was just a really thin door in the pediatricians office.
Scott Benner 5:33
I just had this feeling like you up against the door just listening and listening. She's calling the hospital. She packed the bag up. We're leaving in a minute. This is right.
Kathryn 5:41
Yeah. And then she came back in and she's like, normally in this situation, we would send somebody in an ambulance and put you on put him my son on, you know, an IV, but she's like, I don't know what's in the ambulance. I don't know what's in the emergency room. We don't want to expose you to any more unnecessary germs. So she's like he's stable. How you caught it this early. No idea. He was not in DKA or anything. He just really high blood sugar and p and a whole lot. So I drove we're in the far northwest suburbs of Chicago. So I drove into the into the city and Oh,
Scott Benner 6:14
wow. And then yeah, Geez, how long were you in the hospital? Which they got you out of there quicker? To
Kathryn 6:20
two nights. So three days, two nights. Yeah, pre pre masks and everything. But they gave us two options for hospitals, one out of the city, and then the children's hospital in the city. And she said maybe not the one out of the city because they started accepting COVID patients and the, at the time, the children's hospital didn't have any known COVID patients. So
Scott Benner 6:41
that is right, right at the beginning. Oh, yeah,
Kathryn 6:44
right at the beginning. So we were lucky my husband was still allowed to come down. And at that point, we're like, okay, we hadn't seen the grandparents were like, We don't know if you're diseased or what's going on. But we're like, We need someone to watch the Our older daughter so grandparents were like, Okay, you're in our bubble now.
Scott Benner 7:01
Disease. I love that part of it. When you look back on that that moment, right where I took one of the best flights of my life because of COVID Because everyone panicked. Before people were really sick, which was, by the way, good. I guess they were going home. But I flew a Me and four other people flew from Georgia to New Jersey, in a jumbo jet was amazing. Like, like, laid across the all three seats and like, you know, the stewardess is willing to give you extra pretzels they'd like kind of flip them to you.
Kathryn 7:37
Probably 12 bags because it's an empty airplane. And we don't need
Scott Benner 7:42
them. We're not even have to clean the bathroom after this. They were just like, like, it was insane. Like a big like, I don't know, what is it yet? Hold? Three, three of the standard ones are like three on each side, just like 30 rows. We can do this six times, like 180 people, right? Something like that. Yeah. So there were five of us on there. And then it was really terrific. It was also frightening in like, first 30 minutes of a zombie movie kind of way to
Kathryn 8:08
show like it's the world coming to an end like this very,
Scott Benner 8:11
it was it was somehow oddly relaxing and off putting at the same time. I
Kathryn 8:16
definitely know co workers that just jumped a plane to Florida and taught the rest of the school year on a beach. So
Scott Benner 8:22
I know what to do. I'm getting out of here. Oh, and what my one of my daughter's teachers did that. They left and just every day she said she turned the camera on. He was he was this close to going outside and enjoying the weather just had to get through whatever thing they were pretending to teach them that. Yeah. Okay, so, three days, two nights did it feel right. And I was gonna ask you if it felt rushed, but how would you know? I
Kathryn 8:45
felt like I took a crash course like in medical school on diabetes and you know, what would have been a semester a year I don't know a lifetime at college. I just even my my head like I said, my husband came down. I spent the first night there alone with my son and my husband came downtown the next day. And we just felt like, overwhelmed. Like, can you say in a good way like overwhelmed, sad for you know what our son's going to live with for the rest of his life. But the staff at the hospital was so amazing, like, trying to educate us as much as possible, and trying to like meet us where we were in understanding things and whatnot like overwhelmed with support I guess so good support. So I guess felt rushed? Yes. In the sense that we're trying to learn hey, here's here's everything you need to know to keep your son alive and healthy and happy. Now go home and keep them alive. So yeah, overwhelmed there. But like I said, they we still work with the the Endo, his endocrinologist who's out of the hospital to and they've been nothing but amazing anytime we need anything or have questions, so overwhelmed in a good way.
Scott Benner 9:48
Now, what about technology and like, where did you start? Did you start with a meter and a syringe or?
Kathryn 9:57
Yes, so I'm here He was actually MDI until about two weeks before our son was born. This, like the one that we just had, oh, so we were doing injections until about, I mean, less than two months ago. And he went home with just a meter, but we got the Dexcom like two or three weeks after diagnosis, they just pushed it all through insurance. So we were Dexcom and MDI until under two months ago, and now he's on Omnipod. Five,
Scott Benner 10:28
who brings up the Dexcom to you, the hospital
Kathryn 10:31
did the nurse educator at the hospital did. That's good. That's excellent. Yeah, yeah. It that was definitely amazing. Because it felt like having a newborn again, going into his crib. I mean, he was still in a crib when he was diagnosed, and like poking him at two o'clock in the morning and be like, Can I squeeze enough blood out of your little finger. So having the Dexcom was fantastic.
Scott Benner 10:55
My daughter, Arden has been wearing an omni pod since she was four years old. And she is now 19. That is every day wearing an omni pod for the last 15 years. I think what we love most about the pod is that it doesn't have any tubing. But I don't know is that the thing you love most about it? You don't have to take it off to swim or bave you can leave it on for activity and exercise. It's small. I don't eat I mean, it's so easy to put on right to fill it and to put it on. It's just it takes us no time at all. Yeah, I guess it's hard to figure out what my favorite thing about Omni pod is. I guess I'll just say that my daughter loves it. It's easy, and it's worked for her. For so many years. It's just such a friend at all this Omni pod.com forward slash juice box. You can check your coverage there for your insurance. Or take a test drive right? Would you like a free trial of the Omni pod? You can do that there as well. And you can just get started on the pod.com forward slash juice box. Now you have a decision to make. Do you want the Omni pod dash, which is an insulin pump? Where you make all the decisions? Or do you want the Omni pod five now the Omni pod five is the first and only tubeless automated insulin delivery system to integrate with a Dexcom G six. And it's available for people with type one diabetes ages two years and older. It features smarter just technology, and it's going to help you to protect against highs and lows both day and night. That's an algorithm based system making decisions about insulin given it and taking it away. It's pretty damn cool. Omni pod.com forward slash juicebox links in the show notes links at juicebox podcast.com. When you use those links, you're supporting the production of the podcast and helping to keep it free and plentiful. Everybody who has diabetes has diabetes supplies, but not everybody gets them from us med the way we do us med.com forward slash juice box or call 888721151 for us med is the number one distributor for FreeStyle Libre systems nationwide. They are the number one specialty distributor for Omni pod dash, the number one fastest growing tandem distributor nationwide, and they always provide 90 days worth of supplies, and fast and free shipping. That's right us med carries everything from insulin pumps to diabetes testing supplies, right up to your latest CGM like the FreeStyle Libre two, n three and the Dexcom G six and seven. They even have Omni pod dash and Omni pod five, they have an A plus rating with the Better Business Bureau and you can reach them at 888-721-1514 or by going to my link us med.com forward slash juicebox. When you contact them, you get your free benefits check. And then if they take your insurance, you're often going and US med takes over 800 private insurers and Medicare nationwide. better service and better care is what US med wants to provide for you. Us med.com forward slash juicebox get your diabetes supplies the same way Arden does from us med links in the show notes links at juicebox podcast.com. To us Med and all the sponsors. When you use my links, you're supporting the show. I don't meet a ton of people whose kids were diagnosed earlier in life than Arden was. But yeah, you've got me by by a little you've got her by a little bit when he's 17 months old. Is that right? 17
Kathryn 14:32
months? Yes. His pediatrician said he won a a not so great award for her. She he's the youngest patient. She has referred to the hospital for diabetes diagnosis.
Scott Benner 14:45
Does she get something like a plaque?
Kathryn 14:48
I know right like terrible, terrible award to win. But yes, he was the youngest and I his pediatrician was great too. She called us in the hospital is like is everything you know are you getting what you feel like you need to How's he doing? So it's been it's been a great team. But yeah, he wasn't anybody and a big surprise.
Scott Benner 15:05
What did he way before diagnosis one of the way at diagnosis?
Kathryn 15:08
You know what I don't even know. stepdad I don't know how much he was. Looking back at pictures, though. You can see in his facial expression, things changed from the week leading up. I mean, he looked to me still like a chubby toddler. He, I mean, he was walking back way before 17 months and running around, but he was just lethargic. His face, looking back at the pictures was all flushed. He looked pudgy. He wasn't like, you know, super skinny. Like you hear a lot of a lot of kids.
Scott Benner 15:36
You figured it out quickly. Yes, yeah,
Kathryn 15:39
they were Everyone was surprised. Even at the hospital, we figured it out as quickly as we did. And maybe that was because of COVID. I was, I would have figured it out eventually. But I wasn't running to work. I was staring at my kids, you know, all day, every day. That's such
Scott Benner 15:52
a good point. I feel like that's why a lot of people are diagnosed around holidays, and vacations and things like that. Because they their life slows down and they don't have as much to do and then they somebody looks up and gets in bed one night and goes this the kid looks skinny to you. You know, like, it just sort of gives you a moment to reflect I think, oh, yeah, I actually believe that after hearing enough stories. You know, a lot of people would figure it out sooner if they weren't running around living, you know, doing all the things.
Kathryn 16:22
Exactly, exactly. So I guess we're fortunate that COVID happened and the fact that it made us slow down and take a look at what was happening. Yeah,
Scott Benner 16:30
well, he didn't go into decay. And that's a big deal because I can tell you Arden our didn't look like our didn't look like a runway model on a heroin bender. By the time we figured out she had type one because she had lost so much weight. And she was so speed spacey in her face and everything and can see your ribs like it was the terrible like scary, like, look back and you think, how did I like we knew she didn't feel well. But you never like we never, like you said like, I don't know anybody weird to say like, I don't know anybody in my family with type one, which is what people say. But we didn't know what that means. Like, my best friend had type one on when he was 18 or 19. But I mean, I didn't watch him get diagnosed, not like I was there when it happened or anything. So
Kathryn 17:13
no one tells you as a parent like, and by the way, look out for X, Y, and Z because that might indicate your kid has problems. You know, no one tells you what to look out for. Because why would you look for it? You know,
Scott Benner 17:25
I always think to look, can you imagine you had a baby, it's your first one. And you're still in that, like, it's gonna be great. Like, oh, and for those of you who are younger, it's gonna be great. Don't worry. But for everybody else, who knows what we're talking about. You imagine if you had a baby, and you were still in that it's gonna be great. Everything's exciting. And I just got married. We just bought a house like that vibe. And a doctor sat you down and said, Okay, we just need about six days. We're gonna go over it in two hour chunks. I'm going to explain everything that might possibly happen to that kid that will make them really sick and you have to bring him to the hospital. You just, you know, that's not first of all reasonable and second of all, I wouldn't be I wouldn't be healthy. You didn't nobody
Kathryn 18:07
would have kids anymore. You'd have one and be like, Okay, this is too scary. I'm done. Well,
Scott Benner 18:11
I mean, I don't know. Katherine, if the coming out of the vagina thing doesn't stop people. I don't know what else is gonna get them. Honestly. Seriously, think back to when you like my daughter's 19 right now or 19. Anytime you ask her about a baby, the only thing she says is, Hmm, seems like a bad idea the way it happens. Fair enough.
Kathryn 18:32
Yeah. The two of the first two came out the the normal way. The third this last one though. They got cut open. So I'm like, Okay, done. I don't need to be cut open anymore.
Scott Benner 18:41
We're just going to do just to make it just open up your abdomen. Don't worry. We do it all the time. We hardly lose any other moms. Like just what is happening. All this? And you're gonna be I don't understand. Like, I mean, as a person. I don't have one. You understand what I mean? But I've seen I've seen one close up, and it doesn't see them like, I just didn't seem like a good idea. You would think very surreal experience. Nature would like install, like a zip lock or something like that. The nice zipper with a look like some kind of lock on it. It seems poorly thought out to me as all I'm saying. ticular we're watching cow have a bit of calf. Yes, yes. Those long legs.
Kathryn 19:23
Uh huh. Who's there is a there's a farm in Indiana. We went on vacation last year in my now eight year old daughter was fascinated. You can watch cows have birth, like give birth live and she was like, eyes wide open staring just like we wait a second to come out. Now. It's like, I don't know if you should be seeing this at seven years old at the time. But hey, that's nature. Let
Scott Benner 19:46
her say she's going to adopt. So that'll be she's like I don't know. I just strongly feel I feel strongly about adoption for some reason. I just you know why if I put an engineer in charge of getting a baby calf out of a mother calf, and that's what They came up with, I'd be like, who hired this guy? That's what you came up with ridiculous. Get out of here. Anyway. Okay, so I guess I'd like to commiserate with you a little bit. Now you had to CGM. So fair enough. But what's it like taking care of a 17 month old with insulin? The
Kathryn 20:20
beginning is such a blur. Like I said, it felt like having a newborn baby. And in the fact that we were always awake and always tired, because we felt like we couldn't sleep and especially me, I took a lot of the I took a lot of the care upon myself. And I'll, I'll keep talking about like, I keep saying My husband's a big part of the story. I don't think at the time he was capable of taking care of our son he is now it was overwhelming. His blood sugar was mountains and valleys like high, low, high, low, high, low all the time, finding your podcast, which I didn't even find until last summer, when somebody on our town square saw my son's Dexcom and was like, Hey, I have type one, two, and then we got to talking. But it was up, down up down. I'm like, I felt like I was doing nothing right at the time. The CGM was a blessing. But eventually it got better. I mean, obviously it did. Because otherwise, why would we be doing multiple daily injections for? I guess he's had, what three years he's been diagnosed. So yeah, for almost three years, we did daily injections, but we figured it out. You
Scott Benner 21:21
figured it out, you were using syringes that were like had half units on it. Yes. And not even not even using the whole half
Kathryn 21:28
unit. Exactly. The endocrinologist would be like as close to a quarter of a unit as you can get it. But of course, nothing, no syringe goes that low. Just probably in the last couple of months, before we switched over to the Omni pad, we finally could use the pen and twist it up to one unit because his insulin needs were growing as he was. So it's like, oh, this is amazing. We don't have to stick a syringe into the pen needle and pull out this teeny tiny bit. His his long acting was still in a syringe, though, until we switched to the pump. Yeah,
Scott Benner 21:58
I taught myself how to inject drops of insulin. So So I took, I took some insulin, and I squirted it into a dish. And then I put food coloring in it so I could see it. And then I drew it back up in the syringe. And then I would sit and practice pushing on the plunger slightly to see a drop come out. I wasn't doing this obviously in art. And I was like visually looking at it. And I colored it so I could see it better. So once I taught taught myself how to press on it enough to get a drop out. Then I started doing that to Bolus her because she knew she didn't need anything you don't I mean, so that would
Kathryn 22:39
have been super helpful. If had I thought about it, that I can't even imagine how long that took to fit, you know, to be able to do that consistently enough to I just
Scott Benner 22:47
sat at a table over and over again, just practicing and practicing until I got it right. And then of course, once the needle goes in, you know the non insulin, the non fruit colored insulin goes in. Then as soon as that happens and you do it you think well I did it the way I did it before that's probably right. And then you realize I don't know. I don't know if it went in I don't know if enough. When does everyone have that panic? Where you you're so bad at injections in the beginning that you put it in you push it and then you go Did I push it while it was in the skin? Or did I not? And then there's that horror that falls over you're like well, I guess we just have to wait now and see if what happens because I don't know what I did. And there's like a little moisture on the skin. It's just the whole thing is a panic.
Kathryn 23:32
good handful of times our son especially at the beginning would you know jump or try and run away and it's like did he get enough in or did he run away before it all came out of the syringe? Yep. Oh, totally. Totally remember that feeling? They're
Scott Benner 23:45
running away and the syringes in them and you're like
Kathryn 23:50
the nice part now is he it's so normal to him. Even if he goes to the doctor you know for for a shot. It's like it's a needle whatever. He's he doesn't even flinch anymore. Yeah. Which is amazing and sad all at the same time.
Scott Benner 24:05
I think there was a moment in that time where my wife looked at me and she's like she was kidding but she goes Do you want to get married? Well have us in kids she's like thanks a lot Yeah, no problem sorry. Apologize for that. Oh my fault. Anyway, so what are your goals? Like I You said you were like bouncing up and down up in hindsight, why was that happening? Um,
Kathryn 24:35
overwhelmed overwhelmed with his care overwhelmed he is celiac also so after when he got admitted they you know, ran all the tests and then we get this phone call that oh my gosh, he needs to have an endoscopy and you know, get them diagnosed for that. And for whatever reason I feel like that diagnosis hit me harder. I remember I don't cry a whole lot but crying in the basement, to my husband and the kids were down airs after we got the official call that he was diagnosed celiac, but the the blood sugar, the peaks and valleys are overwhelmed. And then my husband ended up in the hospital, like five times starting in September of 2020. I found out he and I did not know this, my husband, I guess, is an alcoholic or a recovering alcoholic at this point. And that probably would not have been figured out had our son not been diagnosed. Diabetic and celiac. Well, my husband would probably be dead if, which is we're very sad to say out loud, he'd probably not be with us anymore if our son hadn't been diagnosed. Okay,
Scott Benner 25:38
so let me finish up the one thing before we move on. Yeah, no problem. Way to drop like a like just the bomb in the middle of the conversation. Yeah, thank you. By the way, Kevin, thank you. Someone said something on a recording recently, that was so shocking. And told the told that part of their story. And afterwards I just said, I really appreciate you sharing that I was like, I'm like, it's horrible. But boy, people are gonna love listening to that, just like this is not on that same level. And I don't want to ruin it for people because it'll come out before yours. But anyway, they found out can I just tell you, they found out that her father was bipolar? By figuring out that he was going to dungeons to be dominated by a dominatrix. And well, he's a pastor. It was the like, as she was saying it I just all I could think was Thank you. Thank you so much. I really do appreciate you sharing.
Kathryn 26:36
I'm very much anticipating that episode. As the my I haven't
Scott Benner 26:39
even edited it yet. I want to wrap my brain around the fresh eyes. So but overwhelmed. That's why the blood sugar's go up and down. But like management wise, what were you not doing or doing that was making it happen? I'm
Kathryn 26:53
probably overcompensating on both ends, like giving insulin and then giving carbs to, you know, when he was low, bring it back up. I feel like everybody's told 15 carbs at the at the beginning. Like if he's low, give him 15 carbs. And looking back on it. Now, that was way more than he needed to bring him back up at certain, you know, when he was hitting low at certain, certain levels, like if he's only sitting at 70, he didn't need 15 carbs to put him back into, you know, around 90. So I'm sure that contributed to it and then not being good at pulling insulin into that little syringe. Had I've been able to give him one or two drops, it's probably all he needed versus the half a unit or eyeball, what a quarter unit would be, was probably too much insulin that he was being given to drop him back down. You're
Scott Benner 27:41
just always chasing the blood sugar. You're flying up. You're hitting it with insulin, it crashes down, you hit it with too much. You're just rollercoaster and all over the place. Exactly. Okay. Exactly. Did his size when he grew? Did that make it easier?
Kathryn 27:56
Yeah, it did. And I think experience, you know, every day I learned a little bit more. But yeah, as he got bigger, he needed more insulin. So it helped with the peaks and you know, the peaks and valleys and helped not eliminate them. They still happen. He's fighting a fever right now. So we're back to it. It made them better. It made less of them. We got a little bit more of the the nice rolling hills. Yeah, I his Basal insulin at the beginning, his long acting was so minut that it was he probably only needed one or two drop. So as he got bigger and needed more it. Yeah, it helped.
Scott Benner 28:37
I tell people all the time, and they're like, we're struggling with this, we're struggling that I'm like, the great thing here is they're gonna grow, like keep eating, keep growing. It's the best thing to make this feel easier. At some point. It's just the ability to put in a measured amount of insulin that you can count on doing a thing and not being too much or too little. And it's a big part of it. Okay, so you've, you've got me interested now, how does your son's diabetes diagnosis help you to learn that your husband is an alcoholic? So
Kathryn 29:09
call me naive, like, I mean, we should drink drink. I don't even know the proper word anymore. Socially.
Scott Benner 29:17
I see your red hair. I know what's happening. Don't worry. Yeah.
Kathryn 29:19
My Type One is a fiery redhead, too. Yeah, I grew up in a household that we didn't like my parents didn't drink a glass of wine, maybe for a special occasion. I didn't grow up around drinking at all, as I you know, went to college, studied abroad, you know, grew up had my own my own place, you know, drink a little bit more, but I've never been a big super heavy drinker. Definitely drink socially, way back at the beginning of our relationship when we were dating, like I remember my husband drinking straight out of a bottle and I was like, Ooh, that rubs me the wrong way. And he stopped doing it. He still was you know, acting like a young 20 something year old. So I didn't know any I didn't know anybody. You that I knew of anyway, that was an alcoholic. I didn't know what, what to look for. I didn't know what signs there were of alcoholism. And looking back. I'm like, oh, yeah, X, Y and Z. Hindsight is always 2020. Right? But anyway, my husband hates doctors hates doctors never takes himself to the doctor. He is also wish in a chef. He's in the culinary industry. And so insurance like, yeah, right. So he never went to a doctor because he didn't have insurance. I mean, it was as far as when he went to go ask my parents, if he could marry me nice and old fashion. I said, What did you do today when I came home from work, and he's like, I went to the doctor, and I freaked out because I was like, something has to be wrong. If you went to the doctor, no, he was trying to lie that he went to my parents. But anyway, when our son got diagnosed diabetic and then the celiac diagnosis, the his gastro, highly recommended that our daughter older than him get screened for celiac, and that my husband and I got screened just to see if, you know, our daughter had it, not that she was showing any signs, if we possibly had it. And so I called the doctor and we did not have a primary care doctor for my husband and I at the time. So we were switching to a highly rec, or we were going to we were going to start with a highly recommended doctor in the area. And because we hadn't been to the doctor, not only she wasn't going to just run the celiac, I guess the the blood panel right away. She wanted to do a physical for my husband and I wanted
Scott Benner 31:36
to get paid Catherine, I understand exactly
Kathryn 31:38
exactly. Which I was like, okay, not a bad idea when the last time I went to the doctor was when our son was born, and my husband never goes to the doctor. So I remember going in for the physical and of course, I made all the appointments, and we walked into the doctor's office and my husband realized we weren't at the lab to just pick out we were just going to draw blood. And he liked the look of panic on his face was like, he's like, You didn't tell me we were actually going to a doctor's appointment. He just thought we were gonna go get a blood draw. And I said, Well, we're gonna go do the blood draw. But we're gonna go see this doctor first. It's our first time seeing her she wants to do a physical and he visual look of panic on his face. Really. Which I again thought it was just, he doesn't like doctors. He hates going to doctors rarely does it. But looking back it was she's gonna figure out something that isn't, isn't right. The alcoholism.
Scott Benner 32:31
Wow. By the way, you're so nice. If I walked into a doctor's office and looked panicked. I know my wife would think and say out loud, I made a mistake marrying you. You really have to toughen up. Like, please, please pull yourself together. We're at the doctor's office. But that's what so he thought something in I don't go to doctors. I don't even know what they're gonna do. But he's betting in his mind that something's gonna happen. It's gonna sniff him out on this. Yeah,
Kathryn 32:59
exactly. I mean, of course, I'm not in his mind. But I'm sure that's what he was thinking in my head. Looking at him at the time, I was just oh, he's panicking. Because he doesn't ever go to the doctor. He hates doctors, they freak him out. Just Medicine freaks people out some, you know, but just, she had us to do. I mean, when we were in, in the doctor's office, he elevated blood pressure, which can be a sign of so many things. But she, when she ordered the blood test to screen for celiac, she did like, you know, whole general gamut of blood tests just again, first time at a primary care, she wanted to have a baseline. And she's also the primary care for my parents. So she knows that she knew what my parents are, you know, as in their older age. So for me, you know, screening to see, you know, whatever if I take after my parents, but when those tests came back, No, we weren't showing any signs of celiac, but she looked at my husband was like, there is something else going on here. And
Scott Benner 33:59
liver enzymes, where did they where did she figure it out?
Kathryn 34:02
You know what, I don't remember exactly that test. But she was recommending I remember she was recommending that he go. I don't remember he sees so many doctors now and has seen so many doctors since I don't remember exactly what came out of seeing the primary care. But shortly after seeing her, we ended up in the emergency room. Really.
Scott Benner 34:25
Were you together on that follow up visit the two of you were together. Yeah, yes. Okay.
Kathryn 34:32
And, again, I don't remember exactly what happened and she didn't send us to the emergency room but wanted to do follow ups with him or send him other places. He ended up in the emergency room mainly because of me and his parents and our parents. He was at the time curled up on our couch and couldn't stand up and we're like something is not right. This has been lasted a couple of days knowing that the doctor did saw something where like, we gotta we gotta go.
Scott Benner 35:02
He tried to quit cold turkey. Is that what happened to him? No, not at the
Kathryn 35:06
time his. What turns out after we found out once he did get admitted to the hospital, his liver and his kidneys were shutting down and how old was turns out? Let's see, he's I would have been just about three years ago. He was 38.
Scott Benner 35:20
Wow. Yeah, that's impressive. In a bad way. Yeah, okay. Definitely.
Kathryn 35:27
And, again, we would never, I don't think we ever would have ended up in the emergency room, when we did. Had the whole ball gotten rolling with our son's diagnosis, the celiac that, you know, don't get screened as adults. My husband would probably be dead because we wouldn't have gotten there that quick. Where are
Scott Benner 35:47
you? When a physician is in the room explaining this, and you start doing the math and you say, Oh, my God, he drinks like, does he drink way more than you thought he did? Was he drinking Private 100%? Okay, privately
Kathryn 36:01
100% If we had you know, friends over it was the summer at the time and you know, have a glass of wine or a seltzer outside. Most of the time, I didn't even see him drinking. He's like, I'll just have water. I'll have a you know, a Lacroix or something. I'm like, Okay, I, you know, I'm having one Seltzer and I drink more than I drink more than my husband, who, previously, you know, when we started dating, was drinking all the time. So, yes, it was mostly in private, he would be adding things to his drinks, not in front of me. And I didn't know. And once he got admitted to the hospital and was in for a stay, and we, I found out I mean, they called me in the morning, and we're like, hey, we had to move him to the you know, to a different floor because he's in withdrawal. And I'm like, What the heck does that even mean? I grew up so naive, it took me a while, but then going through cabinets. I was like, oh, empty liquor bottle, empty liquor bottle empty liquor bottle, as like, I didn't I didn't even know that it was happening. That's fascinating.
Scott Benner 36:59
Shocking, I imagine. So But where does your brain jump to? Do you jump to? I've been lied to? Or do you jump to he needs help.
Kathryn 37:10
Both like, there was so much hurt, anger, and please save my husband, because they told him 8% chance of getting out the hospital alive. Original, like there was talk when the first time I went in to see him. When he was going through withdrawal, talking to a doctor, he was in a procedure and talking to a doctor, she was talking like maybe transplant list if we're lucky enough to get one. And my head's going. I can't be a widow at what was I 33. At the time, like we have two kids, we have a diabetic that I'm overwhelmed. Like I'm teaching remotely, which is a different kind of overwhelmed. Thank you. COVID. But then also the anger, the hate, like how could you do this to me? How could you do this to yourself? How could you do this to your kids running through my head of how many times did you put me or the kids in danger? Like how many times were you drinking behind the wheel? I don't know. It was the biggest mix of emotions.
Scott Benner 38:06
Yeah, I can't I can't I can't imagine that. I can't imagine. So if this this part where he's in the hospital, and they're like, he might die. That's insane. But how did he tell you? I bet you telling your parents wasn't easy. No.
Kathryn 38:19
My mom, we're very fortunate that our parents, both sets are nearby and very, very supportive. And when I took my, my my husband to the hospital, he got admitted I came home to spend the night I was like, I have a I have a newly diagnosed diabetic. My parents at the time, hadn't learned how to fully take care of him. So I couldn't spend the night at the hospital. And so my mom was there in the morning, because she was going to watch the kids so I could go back to the hospital for my husband. And so she was there with me, actually, when I got the phone call that they moved him to a different floor because he was going through withdrawal. Yeah. And so she heard it right there with me. Wow. And I'm sure there there were disappointed in my husband, but they're super supportive. My parents are very religious too. So my mom saying prayers, all of her friends saying prayers. Did
Scott Benner 39:12
you go tell Moscow? Don't worry, my mom's praying, you're gonna be fine.
Kathryn 39:16
I don't think he would have even known he was so out of it. I mean, at him going through withdrawal like I was when I was there helping him pee in a cup because he couldn't get out of the bed like going through the convulsions, the shakes. The whole thing he went to he probably didn't even know what happened until after it happened. Wow, that, you know,
Scott Benner 39:34
how long did that go on for the withdrawal in the hospital. The first
Kathryn 39:38
hospital stay was almost a week, I think almost a week. And that was the beginning of September. And he had ended up four or five hospital stays between September and November because of retention, water retention. He had a lot of abdomen taps to release the fluid buildup
Scott Benner 39:59
because his kidneys weren't functioning well,
Kathryn 40:02
exactly. And they found when they were releasing the fluid out of his abdomen, paracentesis, I think is what it's called, they ended up finding a blood clot to his portal vein in his to his liver. So he wasn't also getting blood flow to his to his liver. While all this is happening,
Scott Benner 40:18
his body was like, we can't filter out any more alcohol, we gotta block it from coming in. That's
Kathryn 40:22
exactly and so well, finding the clot was great. Yeah, I mean, eventually getting rid of the clot and getting the blood flow going. He has cirrhosis of the liver, but he is if for anybody listening, he is alive and functioning. He's a medical miracle. Really?
Scott Benner 40:43
Is he on a transplant list now? Or no? No, no, no,
Kathryn 40:46
he has. He has a small amount of cirrhosis. But what is the liver and the kidneys? I think both can regenerate to a certain extent, in his functioning. I mean, because doctors he's on a what every six months. Now he sees them. He's a medical miracle. He's like everything that they do. He got his body responded the most idealistic way that could possibly happen. I mean, they told me his bilirubin level because of the liver and the kidneys was at a 20. And at a time they tell you it's a 50% chance of life. Yes. Did you ever was at a 20? Yeah.
Scott Benner 41:21
Did you ever consider leaving him?
Kathryn 41:24
II? I don't think really seriously. I mean, like I said, in, in all of the emotions going through me it was like, Well, I hope he doesn't die, because that would be terrible for everybody. Him, me, the kids, our families, but I definitely ran through my head, if he comes home, and lives through all of this, which he did, if he can't give up alcohol, if he relapses, maybe leaving him as an option. Thankfully, we haven't. We haven't had to deal with that. There were about three nights that I made him go sleep at his parents, because I was I was in the very angry stage. And I was like, I can't take care of you take care of me my mental and emotional state and take care of our kids. Like, I'm still learning this diabetes stuff. Like, I can't trust you to take care of our diabetic because I there was a lot of trust lost at the time. So there was never, we never hit the point where I was like, seriously, like, move out and you know, stay out. Like, like I said, he slept at his parents like two or three nights. But that's about it
Scott Benner 42:28
for me. I know, I would have a lot of trouble with the line, that that would really hit me hard. I'm almost impressed that he was able to get into this poor shape and hide it like that, like a ninja level move. How was he doing it? And did he ever tell you when he started drinking or why?
Kathryn 42:46
I think it in the story also changed over the course of those six months, like His truths got truthy or came out slowly. Slowly over time, the truth came out. And therapy has been a wonderful, wonderful thing. Like I saw therapist a couple times we went together, he still goes not that mean, he was going twice a week after he got out of outpatient. You know, outpatient therapy, like the therapist has helped a whole time with the truth coming out. But I don't know how much he was drinking in a day. But the number of minis that I found like, we always had an extensive alcohol collection, I guess you could say at our house. And a lot of it came from him working in restaurants. So we're a restaurant closing and it's like, Okay, I'm gonna just go take it home and throw it on the shelf. There was so much that I thought sat there, and we just never touched. We just had this abundance of stuff, cleaning out the house later on, that one's watered down, or that one's completely empty. And there's like the storage area in our basement where a lot was I just never go into that's my husband's area. You know, there's his sheet pans for cooking. And like, why would I go in there and it turned out tons of empties in there. But again, I didn't go in there. So why would I? Why would I know?
Scott Benner 43:59
Well, so far, the least shocking thing you've told me is that he's a chef. Because everybody I've ever spoken to who works in a restaurant just describes the battery. So Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Kathryn 44:13
Lots of lots of stories from in there. And I think lack of work when COVID hit, gave him more time. He wasn't in a restaurant at the time. He was teaching, culinary and working. He's got friends with food trucks and catering business, you know, he be working with this person and that person. And I think the lack of work he if he felt and later on voice, he felt a lack of purpose. And he tried to cover up or find a purpose, I guess, and increasing his drinking exponentially from what it was before then, I mean, I don't I don't blame COVID It was still his choices. But I think COVID and the lack of work definitely did not help anything I think had COVID not hit we probably still would have dealt with the alcoholism at some point in time. Like just or
Scott Benner 45:00
autoimmune on one of your sides of the family are both? Nobody else. Nobody else has celiac or a thyroid thing? Nothing.
Kathryn 45:08
No. So yeah, everything. Everything was a big shock. And now of course, the nervous part of me is eagerly anticipating, you know, we'll our brand new baby that we have now. Well, will he show any signs of anything? But now that's always going to be stuck in the back of my head. But yeah, there's nothing on either side. Alcoholism does run in the family. So I guess that shouldn't have been too much of a, I shouldn't say it shouldn't be too much of a shock. It still was a giant shock but ya know, autoimmune in the
Scott Benner 45:37
family, the alcoholism on his side, or both sides. His side. I wasn't sure if your parents found Jesus after they shook drinking or something like that could happen.
Kathryn 45:47
No, no, that's just Catholic military parents is what happened. So everything was very strict, regimented, and we follow the rules again, your
Scott Benner 45:55
red hair tells me almost everything I need to know about your background.
Kathryn 45:59
I'm not Irish, if that's what you're thinking.
Scott Benner 46:01
Trust me here. It's okay. I knew you were Catholic. I'm not a redheaded
Kathryn 46:05
Irish Catholic.
Scott Benner 46:07
Wow. She's that's a lot. So this is the overlapping with the diagnosis. Yes, he might die. He lied to me. He's an alcoholic. Is he gonna be okay, is this gonna get better? Are we gonna stay together? Is this I mean, when do you start thinking? I mean, you just said, I wonder if my little one might get type one. Do you think I wonder if my kids are gonna be lean towards alcoholism, too? Like it all hits you at once? Yeah. Yeah,
Kathryn 46:36
we have my husband. I have both said Now, in some ways, not that you can't drink alcohol when you're type one and celiac, but the celiac reduces your choices of what you can drink safely. So I have said to my husband, I said, I'm kind of glad that for the celiac and the fact that it reduces his choices when he's older, and our kids are still so young, that we'll have to talk as we get older about how we you know how we're going to talk about alcohol with them. How much do we tell them of their dad and what he went through as far as they understand right now? Because let's see, our daughter was only five
Scott Benner 47:16
because you don't want us all went down. Don't want them? Cursed? Right? Like it's gonna happen. Right? Right. Yeah, I see that and
Kathryn 47:22
trying to explain to them when it was all happening like daddy's in the hospital like he was in the hospital. Like I said four or five times for a week at a time between September November. He was in the hospital a lot. And if he wasn't in the hospital, he was at a doctor's office. They knew daddy had a tummy ache. His tummy wasn't working right and drinking daddy juice or mommy juice as they called it wasn't helping his tummy ache because we don't want I don't want to scare you know, scare them Daddy might not come home. Daddy has a big problem. Yeah,
Scott Benner 47:51
Mommy didn't choose well, and we're all on a storm. Now. How did that boy trick you? By the way? One of the when you got back? I know how I tricked my wife into marrying me. She should have not done that. But she really should have been smarter about it. But what did what did what? Well, who did you think? Like? I mean, you said like you just felt naive about drinking in general. Right? But like, did you just never think, oh, this could be more than I think it could get worse it could like I'm trying to think of I guess my question is Who did you think you were married to? That's my question.
Kathryn 48:28
A social I mean, a social drinker. As far as the drinking is concerned, like, I love my husband, he's, he's very much a people person and super charismatic people. People love him, he can engage you in conversation for hours on end. And I'm sure that's a trick of you know, he's been a bartender and all of his different aspects of the culinary world. And being a bartender, you're like, somebody's therapist at a bar. So he cracks everybody up. Everyone loves talking to him. It's really easy to be drawn to just his charismatic personality. And that's that's who I thought I was marrying, you know, at the time. Well, you had the alcoholism never didn't see it. Yeah, let's know. And at the, at the time, we got together. His dad, like I said, it runs in his family, his dad was sober. And that didn't even strike me at the time. Like I knew his dad was sober. And I was like, Oh, my husband could end up with it because it it you know, it does run in families. That my naivete naivety, I don't even know the right word to say it. I'm a math teacher, not an English teacher. I it didn't even faze me like that could be something I might deal with later on down the road. Has he
Scott Benner 49:39
figured out why like why he drinks is it just the the gene like the alcoholic gene, is it is he anxious and he's masking something like do you know what he was trying to save himself from with it?
Kathryn 49:49
I think the anxiety was a slow build over time. The the inconsistency in His work which He loved work, but the inconsistency of just that industry didn't help anything. I think there was always a part of him that worried that he would end up like his family. And I mean, his. Everybody in his family is alive and doing very, very, very well. But I think he knew that it could be it could be a hereditary thing, or it could, you know, run in his bloodline. But I think, yeah, the anxiety builds with the inconsistency of work, but also the work industry that he was in didn't help. Yeah, no, I understand. didn't help at all. If he was working in an office, he wouldn't have alcohol in front of him. Like, like, all day, but when you're working in a restaurant, or you're working as a bartender, Hey, you want a shot? I'll take a shot to you know,
Scott Benner 50:44
did you guys have a movie moment where you dumped all the bottles down the sink? We did.
Kathryn 50:48
I did that with his parents and his best friend on on his parents anniversary while he was in the hospital. Oh,
Scott Benner 50:55
wow. What a what a lovely remembrance of the of their union. Exactly.
Kathryn 50:58
Exactly. And yeah, there was there was a lot of uncovering of, you know, watered down bottles, empty stuff. But yeah, I didn't do it with him. I was like, I had that angry part of me. And I remember talking to him in the hospital. He's like, we don't have to get rid of everything. Like you can still drink. And I was like, No, it's all going like, no. Sigh It's all going. So I did it while he was not
Scott Benner 51:21
home. Yeah, this wasn't fun. We're not doing this twice. Wow. And oh, gosh. And then on top of this, this, this diagnosis did does he does your husband have clarity? Does he ever mentioned the the pressure he felt from the diagnosis of the type one? No.
Kathryn 51:38
I and looking back, I he obviously knew what was happening with our son like he now like he was in a fog from March till, you know, November when he finally came out of the hospital for the last time, but I think he was so about him at the time, you know? Yeah, this alcoholism is building and how can I hide it? That he wasn't he very easily let me take the reins on everything with our son. And for me at the time, it was well, he hates doctors anyway. So I take our son to the doctor's appointments, I make the phone calls. He was trying to help at the time as much as I think he was capable of at the time me not knowing what he was going through. But I took the reins of everything with our with our son. I don't think he he was he was too busy thinking about himself looking back on it then really worried and that sounds so bad to say out loud because he loves our kids and the kids love him. But I think he was too wrapped up.
Scott Benner 52:41
Listen, I've gotten the flu before I've gotten the flu before and for three days. I tell everybody just stay alive because I can't help you. And he's probably just in that situation. Hey, my last my last kind of question about this. Did you have any experience with any friends come to you privately and apologize to you for not telling you? No, that didn't happen.
Kathryn 53:03
i He like was a master at hiding. It's not like he was out drinking with his best friend. You know, if he went out with his friend, it was a beer. It was like nothing. It was all secretly in the privacy of our home. There was one time that my mom has said she saw like an empty mini in the recycling bin. And not my parents because they like the fact that they even have any alcohol in their fridge is usually because one of us five kids is you know, one of their kids is coming into town or something. So I remember her telling me she saw a mini in the fridge when he was coming to our in the recycling bin when my husband was coming to pick up our son because the grandparents are thankfully our babysitters when we're working. And that's the only like, the only person who said anything, but she told me when she saw it and that didn't really
Scott Benner 53:56
know I meant or anything. There was an apology tour at my house of God about my dad's cheating. Like so guys that were single and involved in the what was going like what these guys were doing. Like, you know, who knew my dad was cheating on my mom and they came to it was very, actually I found that unpleasant. They were unburdening themselves like they were. It wasn't helping my mom. They just they felt bad. And they were trying to get trying to get rid of that burden. I didn't know if that happened. If you had any by people like I'm so sorry, but it sounds like he was very private about it. Is he? Oh, yeah. Was he embarrassed at the time? Has he told you like when he was drinking? Was he? Like he's he hide? Why? Like, Why do you hide it? Like, that's my question. You're hiding it because you don't. Because you're why you don't. I mean,
Kathryn 54:50
I think he was embarrassed that he was drinking so much and he didn't want it to seem like he had a problem. He didn't want anyone to know we had a problem and yeah, I mean, I guess I I get that to a certain extent, why would you want people to know if you have a problem? And that kind of problem is not one where most people say, Hey, I have a problem, please go get me help, you know, thankfully, the help he's gotten has definitely helped him a whole heck of a time.
Scott Benner 55:13
Cool. That's amazing. I'm trying to put myself in his position, like, how do I approach you? And say, this is what's happening to me. I don't know, though. It seems difficult to me. Like it's one of those things like a therapist would tell you, like, reach out to friends and Bob. Oh, my God always sounds good. When people say it, I'm like, how do you? How am I supposed to do that? Like, how am I supposed to walk up to the person who I, you know, is trying to trust me for my whole life? And I'm just like, hey, I need to tell you something. I'm having like a significant issue here. Yeah. So I
Kathryn 55:42
think it was really on his literally on his deathbed. He had to have that, like, come to Jesus moment. Like I need to do what I can to stay alive and then go get some help to, you know, combat this, this issue.
Scott Benner 55:56
That's good. It's good for him. It's amazing. Honestly. Yeah. Yeah. Good. It's got to be hard work.
Kathryn 56:01
It's yeah, it's always still hard work. And it took a long time to trust Him and trust Him to take care of our son and not like, give him way too much insulin or let him go too low for too. Like. Yeah, that was all
Scott Benner 56:14
you see. Even the chef Catherine. I mean, he was so good at hiding the other thing, maybe it's an international spy, you have no idea who it
Kathryn 56:19
could be. Maybe there'll be a movie made out of his life. You know, he was just really, you know, like a what is it Mr. And Mrs. Smith kind of moment. Just
Scott Benner 56:27
just comes in the house with a gun with a silencer on and he's like, listen, I did get the kids together. We're gonna have to find our way out. Exactly fell me. Oh, my gosh. Well, that's really something. Oh, you are? Hey, are you okay? Yeah, yeah. Are you sure?
Kathryn 56:44
I am. I'm, I'm as good as I can be as good as I have been in the last three years. Good
Scott Benner 56:51
for you. That's excellent. Is there a whole rebuilding? Like if I asked you to describe your personal relationship now versus I'm not asking you to, but if I was asking you to describe it now versus then is it a completely different relationship now? Yeah,
Kathryn 57:04
yeah. 100% win trust gets destroyed as bad as it did. It took a lot of rebuilding a lot of therapy, discussions, fights. Everything. I mean, and yeah, it's complete. It's completely different. Like, I feel like I'm married to the person that I thought I was married. And didn't get at the beginning. Yeah.
Scott Benner 57:27
Well, I also would assume that this probably feels exactly like being cheated on. Right. Yeah,
Kathryn 57:32
it's I mean, it is I guess, a type of cheating not with somebody else. But he was you know, not with a person. But with a bottle. You're
Scott Benner 57:39
doing a thing. It's unknown to the to your spouse, it would hurt them if they knew. You're hiding it. It seems very similar to me. Yeah. Wow. That's like, hey, this. I'm sorry. I know you have little kids. But Did Did he just drink or were there any drugs?
Kathryn 57:56
No, just drinking. Okay. No drugs unless there's more hidden secrets but I trust there's there's not more hidden secrets. So no, just drinking. Well, you
Scott Benner 58:04
have to trust if you don't trust you make yourself crazy. But yeah, is he what they call California sober? Or is he sober sober? Like, is there weed? is my question. No, yeah, is
Kathryn 58:14
sober, sober. He has found a lot of he genuinely likes the taste of alcohol, a lot of alcohols. And he has found some brands of anaise that he really likes that are that are hard liquor alternatives that are like, you know, zero proof. Yeah.
Scott Benner 58:31
That was my question. Like, how do you like because he still got the anxiety, right? It
Kathryn 58:36
is way better. Like he would have shakes that I thought was just his crippling anxiety probably alcohol induced. But he would have shakes when he would get really anxious before like if he like I said, we are in the burbs of Chicago if we drove closer to the city and he grew up way closer to the city like closer burbs than where we live now. So he's used to the traffic like he would, you would see him on the wheel shaking, and I just thought it was anxiety, but that has virtually all disappeared. Now that is now that he is sober. So he
Scott Benner 59:11
couldn't he was like, having withdrawals just on a drive somewhere. Because he isn't true. He was checking constantly. It sounds like, Wow, geez, that's something I don't know. I'm glad not to understand it. But it's terrible. You know, every time somebody tells me about it, hindsight,
Kathryn 59:30
like the number of times that this was part of my anger, like the number of times he put myself in our two kids at the time in danger is like, How could you even do that? But yeah, we've come up. Yeah, yeah.
Scott Benner 59:45
Well, that sounds good. Oh, wow. Hey, thanks for telling me about that. It's not it's not a pastor in a dungeon, but it's pretty good.
Kathryn 59:54
It's I mean, I never thought I would say I'm thankful that my kid has diabetes, but But had that diabetes diagnosis never happened, the ball would never have started rolling to what
Scott Benner 1:00:06
it would have been. It would have been COVID. And he would have probably, like, doubled down on what he was doing in that COVID time. Oh, yeah, I would have been bad and
Kathryn 1:00:15
he would not have I had he not gotten into the hospital in September when he did like that blood clot that he had, like, yeah, he would be dead, because
Scott Benner 1:00:26
they wouldn't have taped because if he came in just saying, like, look, I'm, I'm an alcoholic, like that probably would have got pushed real down on the list once they weren't admitting people in hospitals anymore, ya know that the timing really worked out for him. He's gonna get crazy. Because one day, one day when your four year old is a is a man. He's gonna tell him. Did he mean? Like, he's gonna He's gonna pull him aside and tell him like, I'm here because of you. And, you know, like, that whole thing? That's gonna be crazy. Yeah.
Kathryn 1:00:56
Wow, the whole everything happens for a reason, like whether you're religious or not, or however you want to believe it. Like, I guess the reason that my son had to get diagnosed was so my husband could live.
Scott Benner 1:01:07
It would have been nice if your kid just got like a nice, like, I don't know, simple virus that would have cleared up in a couple of weeks. So yeah,
Kathryn 1:01:12
like a broken bone or something would have
Scott Benner 1:01:14
been would have been terrific.
Kathryn 1:01:17
Exactly. I mean, he is super, super proud. He's the cutest four year old. He's super proud of all of his machines on his body. And he shows everyone he's like, look, I'm like the bionic man. But which is cute to see. Like, I'm glad he's not fazed by anything happening to him. But yeah, would have been nice if it was just a virus or a broken boat. Yeah, that
Scott Benner 1:01:34
would have been better. I take your point. I do. Take your greater point, though. Are we have we covered everything, I want to make sure we don't miss anything. And then I want to ask you a little more about how the diabetes is progressed for him. And no,
Kathryn 1:01:45
yeah, that I mean, we got that. That's in a nutshell how my how my, my son saved my husband's life.
Scott Benner 1:01:52
To go back to when you were 19 and find you and be like, Hey, tell me the story of the next 20 years of your life. Just
Kathryn 1:02:02
just how I thought it would all pan out. But well,
Scott Benner 1:02:06
I guess you're all here. That's good. You know, exactly.
Kathryn 1:02:09
Okay, we brought another kid into the world since then, too. So I guess we have to be doing pretty decent.
Scott Benner 1:02:14
Listen, I just assume your husband is very handsome after you told me you had a third kid. After all, that just must be such a handsome guy must make you dizzy. You're like, Alright, one more. Oh my god, I just I don't think my wife would drive in the car with me again. So I like pretty impressed. Actually.
Kathryn 1:02:36
A lot of things of, you know, getting in the car of like letting you in the house taking care of our diabetic son putting a needle in his body took a long time before I let him do say have you know? And you're not like I had another kid for a while with my husband? Like you can or can't do this. You know, I imagine
Scott Benner 1:02:53
and you you're not um, I don't know the way but you're not sure about it. Like, how come you don't seem like the kind of person who like walks out the door in the morning goes, Hey, don't get drunk drunky and leave like you're not pet you don't seem passive aggressive or, or, like giving me
Kathryn 1:03:08
I feel like when all of this happened, I I'm very much a people pleaser. And I feel like I became more frank with my husband and more direct in how I was feeling and what I needed and what I came to a point now where I'm like, I don't care if how I'm feeling or what I think or what I need you to do is what you want to hear or if it's going to make you feel good, or if it's going to make you feel bad. Like I gave up the people pleasing to a certain extent, you know, with especially my husband after all of this went down. I was like, I need to make sure that I'm okay. In order to make sure my kids are okay in order to make sure my my husband's okay, like, I don't care anymore. I mean, it sounds really bad. Like, I do care what I say to my husband, but I don't care if me sharing my feelings makes you feel good or feel bad. Like there were a lot of discussions, especially early on where what I said is not what my husband wanted to hurt, you know, here, but I'm definitely more frank with my husband now than I was three years ago. His
Scott Benner 1:04:09
emotional maturity is doubled, tripled, like exponential, exponentially.
Kathryn 1:04:13
It's it's continuing to grow. Definitely. And our conversations or discussions or disagreements are far more productive now and in attempting to resolve them than they were three years ago. Like, like I said, it's a he's a he's the person I thought I was going to. I thought I was married. He's that person now versus you know, three years ago?
Scott Benner 1:04:39
Yeah. And I'm sure he always was that person just with the alcoholic just, he didn't have any time or space to be that person. So okay, you mentioned a while ago, I'm sorry, this one this this a lot. I get the feeling sometimes like you're you're you and I are looking each other which I don't usually do but I'm like warm. I'm like oh my god. I was terrible. Turn up the air conditioning? Well, it's just it's a, I mean, it's a triumphant story really, when you when you see it through to the end, but when you're living, like through the, the retelling of it, it's like, wow, like, there's so many moments where, like, no one would have blamed you, if you would have just been like that said, Well, I'm not doing this with you.
Kathryn 1:05:21
There were definitely times in in all of that, to that. I felt like, Okay, this is the low point of my life. Like I honestly I did. I taught school and did work meetings from a my husband's hospital room, like the point where my principal goes, Hey, that's not like, we didn't have to be in our classrooms. I did go into my classroom a couple of times, just because I'm very thankful my parents were watching the kids. But when my principal finally goes, you're not in your house, or you're not in the school, like, where are you? And I'm like, I'm in a hospital room right now. Like I am. I missed one day of work and all of that, because I had to take our son to an appointment to see the nutritionist at the hospital downtown, and my husband was in the hospital, so he couldn't take him. But yeah, teaching teaching from a hospital room might kind of felt like it was my low point. I mean, I wasn't the one in the hospital bed, but will not
Scott Benner 1:06:13
be in the hospital room. But when you use the empties to show them how to add that was probably upset. You're like, if you have five vodka bottles, and you put four whiskey bottles together. That's nine. Let's count them together. Kids. It's sorry. This is all I have on my hand. By the way. Does anybody do glassblowing? Because we have a ton of this? Yeah. Wow, that must have been humbling for your husband to I mean, honestly, like to see you having to do this thing. Like to do your job from a hospital room? You don't even Yeah, he must have felt like a soul. Yeah, so yeah, yeah.
Kathryn 1:06:45
I mean, he's finally come to term to terms with everything enough, you know, looking back to where he can admit, oh, my gosh, I was an asshole. Yeah, that's
Scott Benner 1:06:53
terrible. I'm sorry for him. I addiction of any kind is it's terrible. I mean, there's part of me that's like, well, thank God, it wasn't gambling, and you didn't like, learn you were losing your home or something like that, you know, or something, but there's no good. There's just no good outcome here. It's it's a scourge, like for people and you know, of any kind of food and alcohol and drugs and gambling and sex and all the other things people get addicted to and ruins their lives.
Kathryn 1:07:23
And it's a lifelong battle. Like he might be sober right now, I guess we're going on going on three years come September, but it's still a lifelong battle. It's not like you can make alcohol disappear from your life, you know, visually, you know, unless you become a hermit. So how long
Scott Benner 1:07:39
after all this? Does he look at you and say, or do you look at him and say, I need you to understand the diabetes now? Like, did he say I want to learn or do you say it's time you learn? When
Kathryn 1:07:50
I the therapist, helped me realize I need to give up a little bit of control because I was I was going insane. I remember sitting and you know, crying on the therapy at the therapist. And as like, I just feel so overwhelmed between my son my daughter who's in Kindred, starting kindergarten on a computer, work my like everything going on, I just felt so overwhelmed. And she was, you know, trying to help me find what can I give up? Or what can I slowly allow my husband to pick up and even small things like our son's long acting, he took a small dose in the morning and a small at night and we would pull the morning syringe at night. And we had a certain location you know that we put it like, we started small with me finally allowing my husband to pull the syringe naughty that way I could double check it before I gave it to him. Yeah. But it took the therapist, you know, what control can I give up? To make me slightly you know, slightly less insane. So we started vaping I'm still insane. No, but
Scott Benner 1:08:55
my wife's like, it's making me sad. My wife because this is making me crazy. I'm like crazier. Stop it. But yeah, no, by the way, I wish I was your age and I would have met you a marriage because you are so forgiving. And I don't even know I like like, not the Kelly's sorry, that hold your feet to the fire thing that you do. Now. I've been dealing with that since I met my wife. And as I just like, it sounds, there was a moment I'll share something with you. Where you describe being a people pleaser. And I for a moment just didn't think of you as a person I thought of you as like, like a spouse. Right? And I thought, wow, he screwed that up. Like I had that real thought in my head like, like, like, like you mean she was like making excuses for you and telling you what you wanted to hear and being overtly kind when it didn't need to be and you like you. My only thought was like why would you ruin that? Like seriously like I know that's not I don't know if politically correct is not the right thing to say. But I just I've never I kill for a couple of years where people just nodded at me and went yes got that makes sense. Yeah, I would like one year where nobody argues with me. whether I'm right or wrong, do you see what I'm saying? Katherine like,
Kathryn 1:10:05
no. 100% 100% I mean, our relationship is a million times more healthy now that I'm not as much of a people pleaser. Yeah, no,
Scott Benner 1:10:15
I That's my point. It's not that that would have been good for you. Like I literally like I have to like dehumanize you for a second to have that thought. But I was like, wow, you screwed that up. Like, like, almost like you. I don't know. And, but then bring it back together again. That's so unfair to you. And you really have gained, you've gained something from this because you would have spent your whole life half head down being like, alright, I don't think that's right. But okay. And that's no way to live either. You know, no,
Kathryn 1:10:41
no, yeah, we're we're sounds crazy. We're we're all in our family better off. Now that my husband's, you know, gone through what he's gone through. And our son's going through what he gets to live with, you know, we're all better off.
Scott Benner 1:10:56
I have to agree. Yeah, I have to agree with that. Although I'm thinking just my birthday or one month, like you don't I mean, like, what if there was just a month where Scott was right. And then there could be a month where Kelly was right. Yeah, I mean, like, I would
Kathryn 1:11:06
start with a day of it's every yesterday, one yesterday, by the
Scott Benner 1:11:11
way, I don't think that's a bad idea. I'm writing down yesterday. I'm bringing this up at the next meeting. And then the meeting, where's the Father's Day? You can say you want to yesterday, the meeting, by the way is when we go over everything I do wrong. What's that bill burr joke? He says I've been married for a long time now. And all I'm really sure of is we're still working on me.
Kathryn 1:11:33
Always. It's always. It's always work. We're always
Scott Benner 1:11:37
working on me. She seems to be fine. And he says, anyway, Bill Burr stand up is great. Okay, so diabetes, every once in a while I should write down in front of myself. This is a diabetes podcast, just so I remember. You get a CGM. You've had it for a long time you do MDI for a very long time. But you said you just went to Omni pod five, is that right? Yes. Okay. And
Kathryn 1:11:59
he's actually still in, we see his Endo, next in like two weeks, next month, beginning of June. He's still in auto mode, they wanted him or not in auto mode, manual mode. They wanted us to get used to using one, like the dash, we initially looked at the dashboard, we're like, Well, might as well go to the five and so we're actually still in manual mode, which is still nice. He can be running past me to go you know, go play something it'd be like, Okay, I'm gonna give you insulin now. Like it's still so much easier than the daily injections. But yeah, we are, we are on a great time, like okay about to give birth, let's switch to let's switch to an insulin pump. Let's learn that, you know, and his he's in preschool now and his nurse at at his preschool is amazing. We email multiple times where she's not hesitant and at all to call me call my husband called grandma. We're like, okay, just double checking. This is right, like, and she was so open to learning the learning the pumps, she hadn't had a diabetic in two years. So she had to kind of like, relearn some things. But yeah, oh, everybody's been great with taking care of our son.
Scott Benner 1:13:02
Well, did you listen to the episodes about setting up on the pod five? Yeah,
Kathryn 1:13:06
and I'm really listening to him now that that we have them too. And I'm like, Okay, I finally feel like we have our basil dialed in. So when we switch to, when we switch to auto mode, I'm like, fingers crossed. It's
Scott Benner 1:13:19
beautiful life restraint. I would just be like, it's work. And I'll turn it on now.
Kathryn 1:13:23
Why not? You know, what are they when we first initially went through the training and set up our son settings based on what the endo recommended, the first time that I thought something needs to be tweaked. I emailed the team and they're like, yeah, do XYZ. I've totally tweaked things since then. So I'm gonna go back to the Endo. And you know, ask for forgiveness, not permission. But the yes, I've restrained myself from turning it into auto mode, but I stopped asking for permission to change other settings for you.
Scott Benner 1:13:52
Yeah, just get it get it super stable. Where that where that basil is doing its job, you're not seeing a lot of lows, you're not seeing weird rises for no reason. And make sure your insulin to carb ratio is really rock solid. I just I've had people say to make it a little more aggressive when you put it into like, just so the auto mode like is a little more aggressive. But I mean, young kid no hormones, probably not eating a ton of like, fatty greasy like that kind of stuff. Right? So you should I don't know. You should love it. And it should work really well for you. So the
Kathryn 1:14:26
first couple of nights that we saw that like pretty straight line overnight. I was like, Oh, they lujah like we finally hit that hit that correct? You know that
Scott Benner 1:14:34
crazy that? That's just from getting your Basal right in the pump. It's so
Kathryn 1:14:38
awesome. I'm like, I'm not fighting a low I'm not fighting a high like finally I feel like the basil is right. And then now he got sick. So I'm like, oh, hit the fan. And I don't know if I can swear on here, but
Scott Benner 1:14:50
we already have a couple times. It's fine. Don't worry about it. You said so once I said this whole. Like, don't worry, it'll be okay. I mean, you're not cursing that I don't understand people who, like you should be walking around just like sons of bitches every month. Chris trying to kill me.
Kathryn 1:15:09
So I would not that bad, but it is bad when our our four year old is our little Spitfire and the redhead, and he'll be like, welcome to the show. Like, do you ever add that to your house? When
Scott Benner 1:15:20
things are crazy? Your husband does something that's just regular stuff like not like, but not like, hey, like, don't forget that thing you did with the alcohol thing or any like big stuff? Do you ever look at him? Like, you're? You still owe me Just shut up? Like do you ever do you have a look that says, Not yet, buddy, for you?
Kathryn 1:15:39
knows when he's tip toeing the line like, I mean, and we still do a lot of what some people perceive, I guess crazy stuff or I can't believe you just let him do that. Like, you know, my husband literally came in the other day and was like, I'm gonna go get another tattoo now. Is that okay? You got the kids Sure. Have fun like, whatever. That's not going to hurt anyone. But yes, there is. He knows when he hits that point. Have I went too far? Yeah, I'd
Scott Benner 1:16:04
be like, I'm still like, I'm still trying to get back to even here. I definitely can't do whatever I just did. I need to stop. Like I always I usually. I joke that every time I do something wrong, my wife takes a point away. But I don't seem to get a point when I do something good. He
Kathryn 1:16:19
seems pleased you've not zeroed out you still have points to give away? I
Scott Benner 1:16:23
honestly don't know if that's true or not. But hey, not about anything. But because you and I are looking at each other. And you're so honest. Do you see this discoloration in the top of my cheeks? It's from Sun from like, watching my kids play sports out in the sun. Do you think I shouldn't say can you see it though? A little bit? Yeah. Do you think I could get that taken out by like a, like a plastic surgeon or somebody? I'm just looking at myself and I'm like, I'd like that to be lighter.
Kathryn 1:16:50
See what I see your face. See if that does anything. You
Scott Benner 1:16:53
have ideas that I have this could happen. I
Kathryn 1:16:55
literally rubbed some. I mean, the ice will make your face read first. But and it's
Scott Benner 1:16:59
always like this though. Like it's this color. Like I always think I'm gonna get like, I mean, honestly, when I was younger, I'm like, I'm gonna get skin cancer from being out here watching so much baseball. But it just it discolored over time as I got older. You see already I have like dark. My eyes are dark. That's like normal. By the way. I don't appreciate that a lot. I don't know if that can be fixed. I don't know if they can bleed. You know, they bleach souls. I wonder if they can bleach your eyelids? You know what I'm talking about? Right? And then I
Kathryn 1:17:26
mean, you can ask I don't know if it's a
Scott Benner 1:17:28
thing where you ask about that.
Kathryn 1:17:30
Great question. A dermatologist. I don't know. That'd be a strange dermatologist. Maybe? I don't know.
Scott Benner 1:17:38
And then my eyes are too squinty. Just a little bit of surgery didn't I mean like, what would have little Botox to do you think it's both? I don't know.
Kathryn 1:17:47
I don't know. I don't I don't even do all of the the cosmetic fixes.
Scott Benner 1:17:53
If your life wasn't so screwed up. I would have spent this last hour looking at myself going why is this camera on? But I couldn't focus on that. I don't like how squinty My eyes are. I sound like a so I don't know what I sound like right now. But anyway, I would definitely get let me just be clear, people are listening. I would definitely get like the coloration if that can be lasered out of my cheeks. And I would do a little eyelift if somebody
Kathryn 1:18:19
I mean wanted to offer analogy and medicine can do anything these days, right? I'm just saying
Scott Benner 1:18:23
like if you have a if you want some free ads, if you lifted my eyes, I would definitely do it. I just don't want to look like the Hamilton guy, George Hamilton. I don't know what that is. You're so young. You wouldn't know I
Kathryn 1:18:39
am. I'm a baby. And I was I'm a sheltered baby too.
Scott Benner 1:18:43
Yeah, we we heard we heard Catherine Don't worry. Seriously, were you just like a, like a fawn in the woods when your husband scooped you up?
Kathryn 1:18:54
Pretty much. Yeah, I was a totally innocent, you know, high school math teacher. And I saw a cute guy in the in the in the foods room, the culinary room in our in our high school. They had the height the college he teaches that was using I was like, Oh, he's cute. And somehow we ended up together. So
Scott Benner 1:19:12
yeah, like fix that check. I bet you that won't happen to you again. You're probably just like, so like suspicious. Are you did it ruin you? Or did you hold on to like that feeling?
Kathryn 1:19:23
I'm not suspicious about everything anymore. I asked me a year ago if I was suspicious about my husband's every move. Yeah, yeah. But I hadn't like you know, forgiven and now you're
Scott Benner 1:19:35
either lying to me or you've done a remarkable job of moving forward.
Kathryn 1:19:39
I sometimes looking back I'm like, at what point did I just say, Okay, I can't hold this against you forever. I don't even know what when I hit that point. But I'm definitely not lying to you right now. There's definitely moments where I look back and I'm like, so pissed at you that this was our life. But at the same time, like I have a husband and I now have three kids like I can't I can't Hold the grudge forever. Otherwise, I'm not going to be happy.
Scott Benner 1:20:03
How about that? You're not Irish? I'll be damn. Okay. I'm
Kathryn 1:20:06
not. Yeah.
Scott Benner 1:20:09
For you. For the Irish listening right now, you are you people hold grudges like, like it's an Olympic sport. It's amazing. I'm sure not every one of you. But I mean, it's a skill. So and they definitely have and trust me there Irish people laughing right now who were still pissed about something that happened 35 years ago. Let it go. Do it. Do it. Catherine did just move like what do they say? Don't fight back fight forward? Is that the same? It makes sense. Yeah. Doing Good job. That makes sense. You're pretty aggressive. Catherine. Seriously? Thank you. Yeah, I would have to give it up like six times. Like that. I'm good. That's fine.
Kathryn 1:20:48
I mean, there were definitely times in the building to forgiveness part that I thought about all the things in my life, that would be harder if I didn't have a husband, like, it's simple and stupid is lawn maintenance, or he cooks really good food. And if I say, like, being pregnant and having food cravings, it's great. When you're married to a chef, like, please make me this dish, and it's on the table in 30 minutes. There are definitely really stupid, stupid, trivial things. I was like, my life would be harder or not as great if I had to give that up. So that helped me work to the forgiveness that I didn't have to lose the, you know, the good stuff.
Scott Benner 1:21:23
That's amazing. I cannot thank you enough for doing this. You were really terrific. Seriously, I wish. I wish we were friends. We're not going to be by the way. But I really thought that you would want to be you're probably like, I don't want to know you after this. But you're a very cool person.
Kathryn 1:21:39
So thank you. No,
Scott Benner 1:21:40
it was fun. Yeah, did.
Kathryn 1:21:42
It's different hearing you like through my computer versus my car. So yeah, cool.
Scott Benner 1:21:47
Do I sound the same? Yeah,
Kathryn 1:21:49
you sound exactly. Like you do on the I mean, I guess we're recording a podcast, but you're not exactly like you do on the podcast. Okay.
Scott Benner 1:21:57
I wasn't sure if like my voice changes, like, because I level it out. Like later on. I'll put this through a process that will make sure your your voice and my voice are on the same level. So one of us, okay, like we're screaming and stuff like that. There's a
Kathryn 1:22:11
weird part of me that feels like I'm talking to my car, because I only I only listen to podcasts, usually in the car, because that's when I was, like I said, I'm not working right now because of the baby. But when I was working, that was the only time I had to listen to it. So you sound like my car is talking to me right? Now. Imagine
Scott Benner 1:22:25
if I was really famous. Like it was like Jason Bateman. You're like, you're the guy from smartlace or something like that. Like that would be insane. Right?
Kathryn 1:22:31
I mean, you're pretty famous in the diabetes world. Like I said, I was on a town square last summer. And somebody was like, hey, that's this this podcast? Have you heard of this stock guy? And I'm like, that's cool.
Scott Benner 1:22:42
In certain settings. I am. I am incredibly famous. Like I spoke at something recently. And someone came up to me and said, Do you want me to run interference for you? Do you need to go to the bathroom? Or get a drink of water or something like that? And I was like, Hey, could you do that? Like, I have to have people walk me places. So it looks like we're doing something so that I can like, but then the minute I leave that room, you're surrounded, if I got hit by a car, no one would look up, like but in a diabetes space. It's, it's actually kind of astonishing. Like I have trouble walking from one side of a space to another. Like it's, it's, it's very, it's nice. Like, don't get me I really do enjoy it. Like I don't like I don't mean I enjoy it. Like, like it's good for my ego. I mean, like it's it's lovely to meet people. And they some some people just want to tell you successes they've had some people think that maybe you could help them with things they're struggling with. A lot of people just want to tell their story, a lot of questions. But it was nice. I did an event a couple of weekends ago. It's actually three days in a row was really interesting the way it was set up. Like I gave talks that were scheduled like onstage talks, but then I was also scheduled just to be on the floor and just in like mingle with people and have conversations I found that really, like valuable for me. You know what I mean? That's
Kathryn 1:24:02
cool. See how many how many people you and your podcast have? reached, influenced helped.
Scott Benner 1:24:09
It's really crazy. I honestly like still some days don't like it's hard to, like process all of it. You don't I mean,
Kathryn 1:24:17
I mean in as well, I should say thank you, because in a year since, I mean, it's not even been a year I guess since I started listening to the podcast. We were stuck a one C in the nines is last one was 5.8. Wow. So I mean, we've we've come a long way. So thank you.
Scott Benner 1:24:33
It's amazing. That makes me feel like I don't know how to explain the feeling. But I almost feel like I'm going to cry for a second when you say that. Like I'm just happy for you like in him like your son really? I mean, because he did not. He didn't feel as good at nine as he did it.
Kathryn 1:24:49
I'm sure he didn't. I mean, I don't even know what we were at diagnosis. I think like 14 or something. We've come a long way. I've learned a lot and I'm happy I'm comfortable. Like I said, asking the endocrinologist and his team which are wonderful. But I'm comfortable asking them for forgiveness instead of permission now, because I've learned a lot from listening to the podcast or reading other people's comments on the Facebook group and things like that.
Scott Benner 1:25:12
So you mentioned it's weird to hear my voice. And I, earlier you said that phrase earlier, and I thought, Oh, she's repeating something I said on the podcast. Like, the, it's better, it's better to ask for forgiveness and permission, like, um, like I said, that like, and maybe it's, maybe it's a vibe that like the podcast gives, I honestly think sometimes my job is just sort of like a coach, like the, like, pat you on the ass and be like, get out there, you can do it, you don't even have that you get run over a couple times, and I come back and I go, don't worry, get back out there, you're gonna be okay. You know, like, I think sometimes that's what this is for. So
Kathryn 1:25:48
and I think it helps people realize, like, we're with our kids or ourselves, if you're the tea, Wendy listening, like, you know, your kid, like, I know my son better than his endocrinologist does, unless you're living with your endocrinologist or, you know, the diabetes nurse educator, whoever, like, they're looking at his stats from, you know, the clarity reports from Dexcom. Like, I can tell them as much as I can, but I'm living with it every day. So if I feel like something needs tweaking, I feel like I have the ability or the right to do that. I mean,
Scott Benner 1:26:22
100% Don't Don't turn back into a people pleaser now. Your kids got diabetes. But it needs you to make
Kathryn 1:26:30
sure he's happy. And that's, that's the person I want to please make sure he's happy. Well, to an extent every once in a while when I hear I don't want the Dexcom on, we're going to put it on, I'm not going to make you I'm not going to please do that. Mommy has
Scott Benner 1:26:41
a small list folded up in her pocket of things that have happened to her. She didn't want to happen, but we're still all here. So let's, let's get it. I've said to Arden, like when she was younger. She'd be like, I don't want this and I go, that's fine. If you don't want that, then this is what we're gonna do. Do you want to just pick one? Tell me which one do you prefer? Do you want to go back to testing your blood sugar 15 times a day. It's alright with me. Like, you know, but I can make that work. I've done it before. And she'd be like, No, I just think it's path of least resistance and their kids like they're looking to. I mean, to be honest with you, I'd ask every day if I was looking at, like, I remember myself, I would have been like, Hey, how about today? We don't do this. And yeah, you know, you just have to keep re explaining until one day they don't ask anymore.
Kathryn 1:27:25
Exactly. Exactly. Our son gets really excited when he gets to have like device free bath time, because it happens to be changed night. We're like, hey, device, free bath time have fun. But yeah, we've definitely done the he doesn't like that tick, tick tick boom of the Omnipod. When it goes in. It's like the anticipation. It's like once it's on, it's fine. We might get one hour from him, but it's fine. But he'll ask Can I can I not have it on? And then it's Yeah. Do you want to go back to have like eight shots a day? Now? Okay, put it on? Yeah,
Scott Benner 1:27:55
I listen, I've said it before. I'll say it again. I don't know another world where we let four year olds make medical decisions, but and I get that it's their body. But they are going to get accustomed to it at some point. And it's a huge benefit for them. And you're going to be happy you did it. I think also, are you the kids a big spider verse fans, because you just quoted a song from the spider verse movie. Did
Kathryn 1:28:17
I if I did, I did it by accident. I mean, he watches like Spidey and His Amazing Friends on Disney Jr. But we're not up to the I don't know how close that is to
Scott Benner 1:28:24
Yeah, yeah. No, he hasn't seen it. It's by accident. Arden met Tom Holland once. Oh, that's cool. He was so excited. Like stupid acts. I have to get her to tell that story on
Kathryn 1:28:36
here. Like accidentally ran into him somewhere, like perfectly ran into him somewhere forced
Scott Benner 1:28:40
us to take her to a thing where she could stand in a line and get her picture taken. And she was younger. But she had all worked up about what she wanted to say. I think she was trying to, like, marry him. You know what I mean? Like, I just feel like, it's like 16 And she's like, like, What can I say in this 30 seconds is definitely gonna get this guy to like, you know, ruin my life. Boy. Ever wonder mothers and so many other men to their wives. Instead, she just like, she got all flustered, like, just ran up to him. And she's like, I have diabetes. And like, she never she never tells anybody that like like, I've never heard anybody I've never heard I'd walk up to someone and introduce yourself as I have. She just blurted it out. And then like, like, you know, took the picture and then walked out the curtain in the back and she was just like, what? starstruck Why did I, what? Oh, my God, that her friends screaming they're like, ah, like I always thought about like, he's only on the other side of the curtain. And every five I mean, every 20 seconds. A different little girl is walking away from him and screaming. And He must feel like, I don't know must he must feel amazing. I don't even know how he possibly stays grounded. Like where everybody's just like, Oh my god. Oh my god. Oh my god every time they see him and blurting out stupid stuff, but anyway,
Kathryn 1:29:57
all right. It's probably funny what some of the people I'll say, I mean,
Scott Benner 1:30:01
Arden. Still to this day, if you ask her, she'll be like, I have no idea why I said that. Like, I was like, it's not a huge selling point. If you're trying to if you're trying like
Kathryn 1:30:12
it's a small percentage of the population, so it makes you stand out what makes you a little bit more memorable? Maybe?
Scott Benner 1:30:17
I don't know. I can't I'll ask her about it. Like, you know, like, it's a wonder she didn't start off like, do you have medical insurance because I'm, I'm gonna need insulin pumps, when we obviously get married five seconds from now. But anyway, he's very short. By the way. I just want to say that he does look at Yes, he's a teeny tiny person. I'm looking at about right now, in case how tall is these? Five eight? Yeah, he's on the short end for a guy I that's got it. I mean, if he's really five, eight, then okay, but he's look smaller to me any slight too. So it's got like that, like your your son's friend came over to the house vibe about him. I'm sure as he's getting older, he doesn't look by the way I really liked those movies. I'm not not much on them or anything like that. Just he's a tiny guy. Katherine, you were terrific. Thank you for doing this hold on one second.
A huge thanks to Catherine Omni pod and US med Catherine of course, for sharing her story on the pod of course, for supporting the podcast, Omni pod.com/juice box greet yourself and only pod five right now, speaking of Omni pod five, there's new Omni pod five. Who should I tell you this? Yeah, I'll tell you. There's new Omni pod five content coming very, very soon, he says in early November of 2023. Thanks also to us med 888-721-1514 or use the website us med.com/juicebox. Thank you so much for listening. I'll be back very soon with another episode of The Juicebox Podcast. A diabetes diagnosis comes with a lot of new terminology. And that's why I've created the defining diabetes series. These are short episodes, where Jenny Smith and I go over all of the terms that you're going to hear living with diabetes, and some of them that you might not hear every day, from the very simple Bolus up to feed on the floor. Don't know the difference between hypo and hyper will explain it to you. These are short episodes, they are not boring. They're fun, and they're informative. It's not just us reading to you out of the dictionary, we take the time to chat about all of these different words. Maybe you don't know what a CU small respiration is, you will when you're done. Ever heard of a glycemic index and load haven't doesn't matter. You will know after you listen to the defining diabetes series. Now, how do you find it, you go to juicebox podcast.com up top to the menu and click on defining diabetes. You'll be able to listen right there in your browser. Or you'll see the full list of the episodes and be able to go into an audio app like Apple podcasts or Spotify and listen to them at your pace. Download them into your phone and listen when you can. The defining diabetes series is made up of 51 short episodes. That will fast forward your knowledge of diabetes terminology.
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#1060 Sisterhood
Sisters Naomi and Sima both have type 1 diabetes.
You can always listen to the Juicebox Podcast here but the cool kids use: Apple Podcasts/iOS - Spotify - Amazon Music - Google Play/Android - Radio Public, Amazon Alexa or wherever they get audio.
+ Click for EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
DISCLAIMER: This text is the output of AI based transcribing from an audio recording. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors and should not be treated as an authoritative record. Nothing that you read here constitutes advice medical or otherwise. Always consult with a healthcare professional before making changes to a healthcare plan.
Scott Benner 0:00
Hello friends, and welcome to episode 1060 of the Juicebox Podcast
Well, this one's gonna be a little different. Today I am talking to two sisters Naomi, who is 50 and CYMA 45. They both have type one diabetes. While you're listening, please remember that nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise, always consult a physician before making any changes to your health care plan, or becoming bold with insulin. If you're looking for community around type one, or type two diabetes, check out the Juicebox Podcast private Facebook group. Now I know I just said type one or type two, and now about to tell you that it's called Juicebox Podcast type one diabetes, but we have so many people in there, it just doesn't even matter anymore. 43,000 members strong 125 posts a day. There's something happening in there for you Juicebox Podcast type one diabetes on Facebook and absolutely free and absolutely private diabetes Facebook group. And if you want to look into any of the series within the podcast, you can go into the featured tab of that private group or the menu at the top of juicebox podcast.com.
This episode of The Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by us med. Us med.com/juicebox. US med is a fantastic supporter of the Juicebox Podcast. And also the place where Arden gets her Omnipod and Dexcom supplies from but you can get those and much more at us med.com/juice box head over there now to get your free benefits check or call 888-721-1514 Get your benefits check it get started today with us met Naomi is 50. She was diagnosed in November of 2020. CYMA is 45 and she was diagnosed in 1986 when I was in high school. So let's talk to Seema first because it came first for her. So are you the younger of the two sisters? Obviously, yes. What was it like? And do you have other siblings?
Simma 2:29
It was terrifying. I had a lot of the symptoms that a lot of people who are guests on this podcast describe I was in fourth grade, I started wetting the bed, which was not normal. I was drinking excessive amounts going to the bathroom very often. I was losing weight, and I was a pretty skinny child to begin with. And my mother said, Something's wrong. I think she probably had a clue because her father had diabetes, even though they thought he had type two. But when we get to know to Niobe, I guess we can say that he probably had type one, as he's added as an adult. And I don't think they knew at that time that adults could get type one. Yeah. So my mother took me to the pediatrician. And they did a urine test and they said I had diabetes. I'm the third of five children. Naomi's the oldest, then we have a brother. That is me. And then two younger sisters.
Scott Benner 3:23
Anybody else have any hypothyroidism? Celiac type one stuff?
Simma 3:27
I have hypothyroidism does it. My mother has hypothyroidism. But she only got that. I think even after I did I got it as an adult.
Scott Benner 3:37
Did you get a baby? Similar? Did you get it if you had a baby by any chance?
Simma 3:42
I had it while I was pregnant with my third child, which the doctor said was unusual because most people get it after they have a baby.
Scott Benner 3:51
You know, this is interesting. I just put up an episode last week with a 70 year old guy named Blue. And he was terrific. But he was diagnosed when he was 36. And early on. I said to him, when they diagnosed you, you know they thought you had type two diabetes? And he said yes. And I said, but now we know you have type one. And he was like, why? I don't know. And I'm just it's so 26 years the man's had diabetes. And he was sharp, like I know. He's 70 So you're maybe like well, maybe just didn't. This guy was razor sharp, really knew what he was doing. understood everything top to bottom. I think under penalty of death. He couldn't have told me for sure which type of diabetes he had. But I contacted assist his daughter in law and He absolutely has type one diabetes. So you think that you had someone in your family who lived the whole life believing that type two?
Simma 4:44
Well, my my we never met my grandfather. He died when he was a few months old. But he got diabetes as an adult and I've seen pictures of him and he was very thin so he's wasn't the classic type two type of build. You know how he met I imagine he might have been type one. And they always said their diabetes and your family. And my mother said, Well, my father, but he's type two. And they said, Well, that's a different thing. But maybe it was the same thing.
Scott Benner 5:09
It's fantastic. Do you know how we managed to do either of you know,
Simma 5:13
think maybe boiling needles, and he was getting his sugar with?
Scott Benner 5:17
He wasn't I mean, this is I'm sorry, I'm running over. But was he he was injecting insulin?
Simma 5:24
I think so. But I'm not sure I'd have to check with my mother. That's
Scott Benner 5:27
her door. Okay, so you're little and skinny and scared. And do you remember? I mean, it's such a long time ago, but do you remember anything about it? Do you remember like the hospital or the leader? Can you tell me a little bit about it?
Simma 5:42
Yes. So my mother, they said go straight to the emergency room. We went to the emergency room. I told my mother I was thirsty because I'm always thirsty. And she bought me a sprite. Remember this very clearly. And I'm drinking the sprite. And they said to me, like, I would think you should be drinking that. And I was like, but I love Sprite. So it was like, that was like what I'm never gonna be able to drink Sprite again. I just remember being so I think they let me finish it. I'm pretty sure my sugar was in the six hundreds when they tested it, which, based on things I've heard is not so terrible. I was in the hospital for about a week. It was very scary.
Scott Benner 6:23
And no, no more. No more. No more Lyman flavor for you ever again. Do we all remember the marketing around sprite when we were kids? They they were like, it's got Lyman. Like, I don't remember. That's cute lemon lime. They were like, it's like I get it. Yeah, I absolutely paid way too close attention to commercials when I was younger. Okay, so do you spend any appreciable amount of time in the hospital?
Simma 6:49
Yes, I think it was a week or close to a week. They taught me how to inject using an orange. I remember that. That was like the fake the fake leg or the fake arm was the orange. We got a meter we got a sliding scale for meals. The meter was an accucheck. The device that lanced my finger kills. It was not what I had today. My mother called it the guillotine. It was like you put your finger in there and it just got chopped. We had to put the blood on the strip, wait a certain amount of time the machine would be wiped off the blood and then you put the strip into the machine. So we've come a long way.
Scott Benner 7:28
Yeah, no kidding, Jen. I don't know if you guys listen to the podcast. But Jenny, who's on a lot of the episodes with me she had the guillotine when she was younger. And yes, yeah, yes. She says
Naomi 7:40
what are your biggest fans?
Scott Benner 7:42
I was just gonna my next question was gonna be similar. Is this the longest Naomi's been quiet your adult life?
Simma 7:50
Well, I have to, I have to just say, I mean, well, jumping ahead, but I didn't learn about the podcast till Naomi got diabetes. So she introduced me. And then I was like, Oh, my God, this is incredible.
Scott Benner 8:02
I'm very happy to hear that. So Naomi, tell me a little bit about your diagnosis.
Naomi 8:08
So I was misdiagnosed, like, I actually heard a very similar story to my diagnosis on the podcast. I had Hashimotos. They called it Hashimotos and Graves disease. I was diagnosed. Actually, right after my honeymoon. I was 21. And I had so I had this horrible thyroid issue. And so I've been taking Synthroid ever since I had radioactive iodine done in 1996. And I was pretty healthy. I have five children never had any issues. My weight fluctuated, and I would go see my endocrinologist every I think every six months. And my Awan See, I would say for like, the three years before I was diagnosed, was inching upwards. It was in the 60s. And he would say to me, oh, it's type two, you have to watch your weight, you have to eat healthy. Meanwhile, I was I mean, my weight fluctuated, but I wasn't extremely heavy. And I worked out every day, like I didn't have the lifestyle issues of type two. So I said, Okay, fine. You know, he just adjusted my Synthroid. And I would just go home and that would be it. Then during COVID, I got some sort of yeast infection that wouldn't go away. And I went to the gynecologist, which was very hard to get into at that time. It was like October 2020. And he tests I guess, as just a standard test. He tested my glucose and he came back and he said, your glucose is well into the two hundreds does that sound weird to you? And the endocrinologist had actually given me a blood glucose meter, but I never used it. But I said, they did mention to me that I might be type two, so that doesn't really sound weird to me. So then I came home and my husband's a paramedic, and I told him what happened. He's like, Oh, my God, we have to test your blood sugar. And when he tested it, it was in the three hundreds, and he's like, Oh, my God, oh my god. And I'm like, calm down. And then And then
Scott Benner 10:02
listen, you'd be nice to that guy. You got sick right after you got married, you're lucky didn't go out for milk. And you'd be like, what happened here?
Naomi 10:10
Oh, my God. I did get very sick though. But like type one never even. And you know, it never dawned on anyone. You know, he knew my sister had diabetes and it never he retired immediately after he it during COVID he retired and I'm like, Thank God he retired because he can't miss diagnose other people. Because I mean, he,
Scott Benner 10:32
oh, yeah, I was gonna say, I thought that's where you were going like he retired because he's so bad. And this is
Naomi 10:37
so bad. Like, why didn't he tests my C peptide? Why didn't I get the antibody test? So anyway, when I was diagnosed when I was officially diagnosed my agency within the province, so you know, it's just totally preventable. Not preventable, but maybe I could have, you know, I don't know. I didn't have to get to that point. Yeah, that's it, you know, and then I was that I'm type one.
Scott Benner 11:00
Yeah. I have to tell you, I laughed inappropriately. A moment ago, I thought you were joking that your husband stopped being a paramedic because he was bad at that I realized you were talking about.
Naomi 11:13
Yeah, I knew nothing. I mean, I even though my sister had type one, I really knew nothing about it. And they obviously gave me no information. It was just don't drive when you're low. That was like, that was like the nugget I got from the doctor. And so I
Scott Benner 11:27
was gonna say, it is interesting, right? Because cinemas diagnosed right on the cusp of like, when things are changing. Like there's all of a sudden there's meters in people's homes. And you know, other insulins are coming on the market and everything but you are you telling me you guys grew up together. And Naomi, you don't know anything about diabetes. On the day you're diagnosed, I knew
Naomi 11:47
that she felt like I knew that she had to take insulin. I knew that. I knew certain things. I didn't know the day to day management of it. When she was diagnosed. I was 13. I actually said to her, it's funny we were I mean, it's not funny, but I would say like a few months after I got diagnosed, we were sitting were four sisters. And we were at a family function. And I said, I just have to apologize to you that I never realized how hard your life was. And she's like, I think, but I think I was a teenager. And I just wasn't. I just wasn't focused on her. I remember when she was died. It was not very I remember the day she was diagnosed, my mother came home from the hospital and said, Cindy has diabetes, don't talk to me now. Like it was obviously a very traumatic experience for my parents. But I was you know, I was a teenager and we actually went to camp we went to Israel for she was I think you were 15. And I was 19. And my mother wanted me to work in the camp so I can keep an eye on her. And I remember I had to learn how to give her I had to learn how to give a shot and like an orange. So if she ever needed if she ever needed a shot, it would be able to give it to her, but I never had to do anything. I mean, I guess she managed it very well on her own, which is unbelievable. When I hear the stories on the podcasts about kids. I mean, she I think she really did it on her own. I mean, Cindy, maybe you could speak to that.
Scott Benner 13:06
By the way, I want to point out that I'm not mispronouncing someone's name, it's her sister. So because I'm gonna come off, like the schmuck that can hear somebody saying semi, alright. But does it surprise you to know how little they only understood about the diabetes? Or does that make sense to you?
Simma 13:28
I think it makes sense. I mean, I guess like my mother and I were in this little bubble where in the beginning, she did everything for me, she gave me all my shots, but I was already nine. So I'd say probably by a year or two later, I was giving my own shots, even if my mother was still very involved at that point in the care. But it's it's funny that she says like, wow, she did so well as a kid and everything. I mean, my control was terrible. But if you think about the type of technology that's available today, and the type of research that's been done on like, how important it is to keep your sugar's low and stable all the time. I mean, when I first got diagnosed, I think they said like, test in the morning, eat your breakfast and then test before dinner. And there's a whole lot of hours there and eat lunch without taking a shot. You know, it would just be like, Oh, your long acting insulin is going to cover your lunch.
Scott Benner 14:25
Yeah, but and they had no real like outcome goals. But isn't it interesting in a world where there are memes everywhere that say things like you can't see my burden and things like that, that your own sister would say that I thought she did great because you were standing up probably because you weren't crying and yelling. They were probably like, she's okay. Yeah, I guess so. Yeah. Yeah. Be You didn't grow up feeling like you were okay. Is that right? If you have diabetes, you need diabetes supplies. Why not get them in a way that is easy and relaxed without having to worry all the time? No, you know just oh my is my stuff gonna come to I forget the pharmacy do I have to call somebody like, none of that with us, man, you get set up with us med. And it's just as easy as like clicking on an email. That's how we do it at least they will call you if you like or I think even text messages, you have to check me on the text messages thing. But you know, they'll call you or though they'll you know, send you an email and just say, hey, look, your supplies are ready for reorder, you want them I get that email and I click on I go, yes, thank you. And then it just shows up at the house. As a matter of fact, when Arden's at school, if I want the supplies to go there, I just get on the phone, I call them up, I say, hey, this time send this order to her college address. No problem just gets done. fast and free shipping. And by the way, every time you order with us med you get 90 days worth of supplies. So you're not doing this constantly understand I'm saying email comes a couple of times a year, but a bing bada boom, click and you're on your way. Actually, one time, we had a little like backlog of something. And I was able to say you know what, not this time thanks. And they were just like Cool. We'll get back to you the next time was that easy. Us med.com/juice box or call 888721151 for your calling or clicking to get your free benefits check. Finding out if US med takes your insurance, which you got a really good chance of them doing because they accept Medicare nationwide and over 800 private insurers. US med carries everything from insulin pumps, diabetes testing supplies to the latest CGM like the FreeStyle Libre three and the Dexcom G seven. But if you want the G six or the libre two, they have that as well. They also have Omni pod dash and Omni pod five. And the tandem pump though it is at the T slim. They got that one. They got what you want us med.com/juice box. Over 1 million people with diabetes have been served by us med since 1996. And it's their solemn promise to give you better service and better care. You want white glove treatment? You want us med links in the shownotes links at juicebox podcast.com. Us med.com/juicebox. Or did you know I
Simma 17:17
did I felt? I mean I think I kind of like dreaded going to the doctor and getting that high a Wednesday, you know, it was often in the nines. And the doctor would be like, Oh, it's too high. But like, they're also we're not the tools to be elite to do it better. Sure.
Scott Benner 17:35
Yeah, he's probably talking to himself. Yeah, what I'm doing wrong here. Wow. In the 80s. Sorry, yeah. That was at doctors in the 80s. Sorry.
Naomi 17:49
All the way back then.
Simma 17:52
I was first with a male I was first with a male doctor, but he wasn't I ended up switching to a different hospital because my care, you know, was lacking, but it was still lacking at the new hospital. And that was more because of what was available and the way they were managing back then. I can't really blame the doctor, my my mother, my parents, but really my mother took me to Dr. Bernstein at one point that was a whole disaster.
Scott Benner 18:17
For Kids, Dr. Bernstein, the low carb guy. Yes. How did she find him? When she cornered him on the street? What happened?
Simma 18:26
Well, we live in New York and he was in Westchester. So I guess she had she was part of a support group and that she probably heard about him from some of the adults in the support group. And I don't think that helped at all. So after, after Dr. Bernstein, I ended up switching to it to the to the female doctor in a different hospital, they put me back into the hospital for another four or five days to you know, get me back to a baseline or something. And we went to Jocelyn at one point in Boston. So we they tried, we tried, but it was just
Scott Benner 18:57
Yeah, no, I mean, it was just limited. Right. The insolence were limited, the technology was non existent. And your goals were unclear, I would imagine right? And how long until your neck? Yeah, how long until you were doing multiple daily injections? Like when did you start shooting for foods specifically?
Simma 19:16
I don't really remember probably older teens.
Scott Benner 19:19
Okay. And then I have one last question. Before I go back to Naomi, why did you not like the low carb approach?
Simma 19:26
I think it was too hard for me as a kid. It was just so it was so restrictive. Okay, you know, it was like you eat these three things a day, and you're done. And I think it was just too hard.
Scott Benner 19:38
In hindsight, do you see it as good advice?
Simma 19:41
If you can do it? If you're an adult and you buy in, you know, I think low carb Yeah, it's much you need a lot less insulin. So it's probably easier to keep your sugar stable if you go low carb but I personally am not low carb and I don't know that I ever would do it. But if you're an adult and you could buy in and and do it willingly, then yes, I could definitely see it working.
Scott Benner 20:05
No me. How did it make you feel when you realize you didn't really know much about someone's life?
Naomi 20:12
Oh, I wanted to ask her now because like I'm, you know I have I happen to have very bad long term memory like I don't remember a lot of things that like my friends remember from childhood I think I only remember the bad things. But you know, I don't remember like our lives changing that much like I don't remember having special foods or my mother like we still had cake. We still had cereal we had like all the food that we normally had sent me, we have soda.
Simma 20:38
This is going to be like a therapy session. We live we live two different lives. You guys all resented me so much. He used to say the city got diabetes, and now everything needs to change. We can't have what we used to have we this we really don't remember.
Naomi 20:54
I don't remember, you know, I was a teenager, I think I was just, you know, literally was right when I became a teenager. So
Scott Benner 21:03
what I'm hearing is that cinema gets like thrust into a more adult role over her health. And so the way she sees the outside world changes, whereas Naomi, you and the others are just like, you know, nothing means anything. You go to school, you mess around with your friends, you do your homework, there's cartoons on the weekend, like, that's, that's it really, like you're not thinking about life the way she is all the sudden, you know what I mean? Like semi you got level, like 50 levels, I don't know where,
Simma 21:32
first of all, they noticed that I was getting a lot of attention. They didn't like that. No more more than my fair share. They resented it. Every three months, you know, once we switched to the new doctor, Manhattan, every three months, we'd go for an appointment, my mother would take off the day from work. After we went to the doctor, we'd go shopping. You know, these things like, kids notice that, you know, my sister gets to go shopping with my mom alone four times a year Manhattan, we don't get to do that. There were I think the cake became more limited. Like maybe only on weekends, there were definite food, things that changed in the house. Even though Naomi doesn't remember it, it happens. The only advantage they got was that soda went from being only on the weekends to we were allowed to have it during the week because I guess my my mother felt like it's too limiting to say like, oh, you can only drink water. So she used to let me have soda as the meal so everyone else could also have soda them.
Naomi 22:27
See diet soda. Yeah, I guess that's when I started drinking diet. You I think you're right that I remember we weren't allowed to have soda. And then we were allowed to have diet soda.
Scott Benner 22:37
What an ingrained somehow she got soda that she's like, but it was diet. Do you think that people who are younger, can like believe or understand how we grew up with soda? Like it was a like a refreshing treat? Like no one thought about the health implications of it at all? Like it was it was like magic to get soda. Do you mean? Correct? Yeah, yeah. And now I look at it. I think what like, why would you drink this? Like, just right? This is such a strange decision. But anyway, okay. So this is really interesting, because I understand Naomi's point of view. Like somebody was like, she has diabetes, and you're like, ah, that sucks. But it's not like you have like a ton of empathy when you're a teenager. You're not putting yourself in her shoes. And then you see the changes that are happening for you. And they are impressed upon you more sincerely. So you just remember how it happened to you. And that's it. Like what happened to you? And Simone was diagnosed with type one diabetes was, this happened, this happened, this happened and my mom took her shopping. And by the way, took a day off from work, which I bet your mom never did. So that probably seem pretty special. To the outsider, some of you see that right? Yeah, yeah, but you didn't give a shit back then
Simma 24:00
I still like today's show. I still like to go get myself a treat after I go to the doctor.
Scott Benner 24:06
Your mom was setting up an expensive grayned in Me Yeah, expensive little thing, or did I go out? Well, I don't know if Arne and I will ever go to an endo appointment together again or not. But we usually go for lunch afterwards. And eat something that's really hard to Bolus for just to like stick our thumb in the eye of what has happened. So it's a proof to prove we can do it. So do you have any, like long term health issues from diabetes?
Simma 24:31
Thank god no.
Scott Benner 24:33
That's really cool. Because it doesn't sound like in the beginning, you were doing anything purposely so you're just doing that old timey shoot neat thing.
Simma 24:43
Right, I would say in my 20s was when my control got really good and that we were only shooting for seven. So by today's standards, seven is still if I was seven now I'd be really disappointed in myself. So I got a pump in my early 20s Because I got married and I wanted to have a baby and my doctor said I had to have an agency of seven in order to have a baby and that maybe a pump would help me with that. I have four children. Thank God well healthy. And yeah, so far, so good. The eyes are good. So far, everything's good.
Scott Benner 25:16
It's amazing. Good for you. That's really excellent. And now how do you manage now like what technology do you have?
Simma 25:21
I have panda with control IQ and Dexcom G six.
Scott Benner 25:26
Nice. And how about you, Naomi, what are you using?
Naomi 25:29
So I was MDI from November 2020, until end of June 2022. And now I'm on Omnipod, five,
Scott Benner 25:37
and you're doing Omnipod? Five. This is interesting. And
Naomi 25:40
you know, the first the first doctor I went to didn't offer me the Dexcom I have I changed doctors, because I was actually whole food plant based at that point when I was diagnosed. So I wanted to find a doctor that supported that and wasn't, you know, wasn't telling me to eat low carb. And I found a doctor and she's like, Oh, we gotta get you a Dexcom. And I'm like, What's the Dexcom? Like, I didn't even I knew nothing about the technology. And that's, you know, that's,
Scott Benner 26:05
that's him. I have. No, don't be sorry. Did some I have one when you were getting diagnosed? Yeah. Yeah. You had everything. Do you guys talk ever sorry.
Naomi 26:15
To get it. This actually brought us closer. That was it all sounded so weird to me to put something on your body and it was just, you know, now it's like,
Scott Benner 26:25
Girls, Girls, I just call Hold on one second. I'm so sorry. I'll let you listen in. Okay, hello. Yes, how are you? What do you have something this afternoon for me? What time you got? Consider me there Plainsboro tomorrow morning. Yes, we can do the second one. Pulling up my calendar. We can do the second one. The 20 I mean, the 27th. I'm going to be pretty wrecked. But how about after this 1/8. The 29th will be perfect in the afternoon. My schedule is really packed that week. On the 29th You're a gem? Thank you. I'll be there. Bye. Hey, I'm sorry for derailing this, but my ferritin is seven right now. And I'm getting an iron infusion this afternoon. So I that was the most important thing that's happened to me in quite some time that phone call. I apologize. Thank you so much. I'm in the middle of working with an endocrinologist to try to figure out why this keeps happening. But we were doing the one you had on the podcast, Addy. Yes. And we Yes. For the thyroid stuff.
Naomi 27:52
That was that was one of our favorite episodes. Oh,
Scott Benner 27:54
isn't she terrific? Yeah. Yeah, she's really, really terrific. She's pretty local. I mean, are you guys still in Manhattan?
Simma 28:02
But when I'm not in Manhattan, I'm in Queens and Naomi's far away.
Scott Benner 28:06
Oh, she ran away. Far away. I moved away. Well, Naomi, I see your last name. Did you leave that? Did you leave the tribe or what did you do?
Naomi 28:17
What do you mean? Did I leave the tribe? I don't know. I haven't. I haven't Jewish last name.
Scott Benner 28:24
Okay. I wasn't sure.
Naomi 28:26
I didn't. I didn't leave the tribe. We, you know, we were like one of the COVID migrants that we we moved out of the tri state area.
Scott Benner 28:33
Oh, yeah. Everyone thought to do that. Everyone here was like, should we go?
Naomi 28:38
Yeah, I'm in a tax. I'm in a tax free state.
Scott Benner 28:43
That sounds better. Yeah. As the person who has to pay taxes on a small business that has no overhead whatsoever. Every year, my accountant knows you have no overhead. What am I gonna write off? And I'm like,
Naomi 28:57
I don't. I lived in New Jersey. I lived in New Jersey for 20 years.
Scott Benner 29:01
Yeah, that's where I'm at. It's a tax on the crap out of me here. Anyway, that's not the point. The point is, is that I'm gonna get an iron infusion. And that's amazing. Because I feel terrible. I'm so rundown. I'm going to use up my entire day's energy talking to you guys. No lie. Okay, so I want to recap a little bit because the phone call obviously threw things off. You guys grow up together? Simmons got diabetes. It's a clear it's a clear divide between her perspective and yours. Then you said something earlier you you stopped to apologize to her Naomi after you were diagnosed like how like was that one of your first thoughts after you started having type one is oh my god, this is what my sister has been doing. Um,
Naomi 29:45
I mean, we definitely brought us closer. We talked about diabetes a lot because I had nobody else to talk about it with. She gave me a lot of good advice. Because literally, I had I mean, they tell you nothing as an adult. They literally tell you nothing. So you I'm the type of person that I want to know as much as I can, and I definitely want to stay healthy. I'm very into my health and I want to stay healthy to see my children. They're mostly grown out, but I want to, I want to be here a long time. So we got closer and I just realized that I didn't know a lot about her day to day because there is a lot of day to day when you have type one diabetes. I mean, something I will say about growing up is that I mean, there were times my mother would say, oh, Sidney gets similar get to this because she has diabetes, and I was jealous when she met Dorothy Hamill. That's me. I don't remember that. You went she
Simma 30:37
was she? She's the Jay Z.
Naomi 30:38
She was the JDRF. spokeswoman right? Where she was very involved with them.
Scott Benner 30:42
Dorothy Hamill, like the ice skater.
Naomi 30:45
I thought you met her. I don't meet you. You met someone famous.
Scott Benner 30:50
Wait a minute. I love I don't remember. Like, I don't know what you're talking about? No.
Simma 30:59
You have to get our mother.
Naomi 31:00
To get her on, she would have all the information.
Scott Benner 31:05
Again, how interesting is this? You don't remember that. And it's a salient memory for her. She's like, remember when I got out of meeting Dorothy Hamill. And it's possible that you've ever
Naomi 31:20
resented me? We probably did. We probably did. I mean, I really. I don't. I mean, I'm sure we resented them.
Scott Benner 31:30
Oh, so I was just fascinating. Like, you're like you. You just see it really is like just the simple thing. I mean, you guys have kids now, though. So you've seen this in your own children, right? They they are very self centered and focused and on themselves and their experiences, which I think we all pretty much appreciate. Plus, you're in this additional situation where diabetes isn't an easy thing to manage in the 80s. And your mom is probably just like, I mean, I love the quote, like, someone has diabetes. Don't talk to me. That was like, I thought that was very telling. Like that's your mom incredibly overwhelmed. You know? Yeah, yeah. Super.
Naomi 32:11
I'm sure she I'm sure she was very tired. I think it was like, right when they came back from the hospital. Yeah. And she she needs her sleep. So yeah, but it was, you know, I mean, there was a lot going on in our house. We were at that point. CYMA who was born. I mean, I thought it was a baby was high a baby.
Simma 32:27
Yeah. For about four of us were born as a baby. And
Scott Benner 32:31
there was a lot going on. You just said something really interesting. It was an off the cuff thing. I'm assuming it's like an inside joke, or a known thing between two of your mom needs her sleep. But mom had undiagnosed thyroid issues.
Simma 32:43
I don't know if at that point, because she could she. Her thyroid issues were diagnosed maybe 25 years after that. So she might not have at that point.
Scott Benner 32:55
I don't know. I think people live with it a long time and don't realize it. They just they're like, Oh, I'm always tired. Or, you know, I
Naomi 33:03
could be cheated everything. My mother, my father was always at work. I mean, she did everything. So and she would get up very early in the morning. She still does. And you know, being in the hospital is just exhausting. And I think that literally it was when they walked in from the hospital. And we were like, what's going on? You know, we probably like attack them at the door. And she said cine, Sama has Cindy has diabetes. Don't talk to me right now. You know, I'm sure it was.
Scott Benner 33:26
It was a lot. Ya know, she was probably like, I can't believe I had five kids. And one of them's got diabetes. And this guy's working all the time. That's probably what she was thinking, what would you be thinking about? But you don't I mean? Yeah, so Okay, so you're both using an algorithm now, but a different one. So, how did you make the decision? Like, similarly, what made you choose a tandem pump?
Simma 33:51
Okay, so I have a great story actually, about this. So my I was on Medtronic, from when I was in my early 20s. I was on mini med pumps. And I did not like the mini med sensor. I just it hurt and it wasn't accurate. And it constantly went offline. I really didn't like it. And my pump went out of warranty and my doctor said, you should consider getting the T slim. I've heard great things about it. And it has an algo you know, it has control IQ and whatever. And I was like, Okay, maybe but also as much as I did not love mini med at that point. I hate change. So it was a Sunday during COVID. And we went to the beach because he got to get out of the house during COVID hour on the beach and I'm like, oh, I should start researching the the tandem pump. I have to decide this week. And I look up and about 15 feet away is a man wearing a tandem pump and a Dexcom sensor. And how like, thank you
Naomi 34:49
God, this is perfect.
Scott Benner 34:51
I'll go I'll go with this.
Simma 34:54
No, so I was like, I'm gonna go speak to him. So I walked over and he's like, whoa, stop because you didn't want me to come close because of COVID. And I'm like, okay, okay, I'm sorry. I'm like, you know, pardon me, but I noticed you're wearing an insulin pump and a sensor. And do you mind telling me about them because I have a mini med pump. And I'm considering changing. Not only did he wear a tandem pump and a Dexcom sensor, but he was a nurse in a diabetes program in one of the local hospitals. So he really knew about it. Yeah. So he told me it was great. And then I was like, Okay, I'm not gonna do any research. I'm just gonna get it. So I've been really happy with that combination. Oh, good.
Scott Benner 35:32
That's excellent. And isn't it interesting to like, you just needed someone with some confidence to be like, This is good. And, and then you can kind of trust it a little bit. And then, so then it's interesting to me when you get type one, why do you not gravitate towards what Simmons doing?
Naomi 35:48
I mean, I don't know. Cuz I remember I. But
Simma 35:54
I remember because I said to you, why don't you get a pump? And you said, and your control was very good. At that point. You were probably still honeymooning and you said, Oh, I don't need one. I'm doing really well on MDI. We discussed it a few times.
Naomi 36:06
Yeah, I was I did very, very well, I brought my agency down until like, I think it was in a very low five, it's very quickly. Um, I was very careful with what I ate, then. So then I started listening a lot to the podcast. And I'm like, You know what, I'll wait for Omnipod five, I didn't want to, I didn't want to go on a pump, and then have to change when the the next big thing was coming out. And I didn't want to. So I waited for Omnipod five. And then actually, the appointment they gave me was right after my son got married in June 2022. And the appointment was like, right after his wedding. And I was you know, I was apprehensive about changing. So I called up the doctor, I'm like, is there any way I can move my appointment to a few weeks later? And they're like, No, the next appointment is in December, you know, you know, the way that these doctors are, they can't fit you in. That's it. Okay, I'll keep my appointment. And it really wasn't me changing from MDI to Omnipod. Five, it really wasn't a big deal. I was just apprehensive about the change. I did go a little crazy. Once I was able to pump I ate a lot more than I should have. Because it was just, it was just so easy not to give myself a shot. So I've kind of dialed back on that. But I love it. I mean, my agency has 5.2 so good for
Scott Benner 37:14
you. That's amazing. Do you have a certain feeling style you use or how do you eat?
Naomi 37:20
So I try to eat whole food plant base. It's it's hard sometimes because I'm cooking for my whole family and nobody else's. But I'm definitely on the High Court. I'm I'm on the high carb side I have between 203 100 carbs a day,
Scott Benner 37:34
but specifically plant based carbs.
Naomi 37:36
Yeah, I tried to stay plant based. Am I 100%? No, I'm probably like 80%.
Scott Benner 37:42
It's pretty impressive. How about you Santa? How do you eat?
Simma 37:45
I eat? I try to stick. I've heard a couple of people on the podcast, say this. Also, I tried to kind of stick to the same breakfast and lunch because I figured out how to cover them without spikes and what works and then dinner it varies, but there's no specific. It's not necessarily low carb, but it's probably lower carb. Because I'm conscious of it. Just regular.
Scott Benner 38:10
Yeah. Is it interesting, similar to watch someone be diagnosed in a modern time? Like, do you watch what's happening to me and be like, Wow, this was like this for me that would have this would have been amazing.
Simma 38:24
Well, I'll tell you, about 10 years ago, my friends, it was probably like 13 or 14 years ago, my friend's son was diagnosed. And he was put on what I was put on 36 years ago a sliding scale and and I said you get him out of that hospital right now. There's so much more available now. And she did and she moved to a different hospital but yeah, but Naomi I mean, I'm happy for I'm happy for people who are diagnosed now I'm sad for them that they're diagnosed but I'm happy for them because there's just so much out there. I mean, I don't prick my finger anymore. Really. I'm not a big calibrator I don't really calibrate my G seven, my G six I find that it works. So it's it's just it's a whole different lifestyle. And even the way you talk about Arden's control the way you can monitor her and and reach out to her and you know we were we were just flying blind. Yeah, back then.
Scott Benner 39:20
You know Arden so I'm happy. I'm glad that and Arden's This is Arden's last day of her quarter in college. And she slept in a little bit this morning that she had to go to class and drop off her last project and she's not feeling well like you know she's got that like last week rundown cold they all have other running around trying to get their stuff done. And while she was sleeping this morning, I saw her blood sugar rising and I remotely pushed up her Basal with loop and stop it while Paul shoes Wow Yeah, I know that's loop it's not it's not a you know, a commercially available product but I think stuff like that like phone control and remote control and stuff like that. I think all that's gonna keep moving forward. This is really I mean, this stuff's amazing. But it's sort of tip of the iceberg. So it's really,
Simma 40:12
I mean, the day the day I got the tandem Bolus from the phone installs, I was like, let's make a party. I mean, it was just, you know, every every little move forward, like you're saying, maybe it's tip of the iceberg. And hopefully, there's a lot more to come. But every move forward is just incredible. When I was about 12, my parents took me to do a trial for like an infrared glucose sensor, it was going to look it was going to be able to read your blood sugar by shining a light on your finger.
Scott Benner 40:40
I remember this. Yeah,
Simma 40:41
that was so exciting. But guess what, it never happened? Well, now maybe I have to wear something. But I don't have to prick my finger.
Scott Benner 40:47
You know what I the one that gets me right now is that Apple Watch is trying to add like blood glucose. But it's so obviously not going to be for therapeutic use. But everybody gets so excited. Anytime a new story comes about one day, I won't need to CGM, like, I'll just my watch will tell me like if you think in your lifetime, and infer like a watch sensor, through your skin is going to be as accurate as something under your skin reading interstitial fluid. Like, if that happens, I'll eat my hat. But like, I don't see that coming anytime soon. It is just it's interesting to see people's excitement when they don't really understand the technology as much as they just want it to work. And they know it's possible. So I even like that, that it feels possible that people could actually believe like, Oh, my watch, you know, maybe one day I'll be able to do since on from my watch, like just from what it tells me I liked it. That's hopeful. Because I think that in the years prior to, I'm gonna say prior to Dexcom coming out maybe their second or third generation when it became clear, they were going to like iterate and keep going, they weren't just going to give you something go here it is This is it. Because up until then that was the world. I mean, the Medtronic pump story tells it, Medtronic has a huge market share of insulin pumps. And you can't find three people to tell you that they enjoy the experience. And yet they don't really change it that quickly. Whereas so when Dexcom came out, and it was like the first one was I would say you use the first x calm for the arrow, like the direction that's mostly what you cared about, like, Oh, my blood sugar's moving, because the number wasn't great in the beginning. And so we use it for direction. And then you thought, well, this is going to be what this is, and then boom, here's another version of it. And here's another version of it, and we improve the filament wire, and we improve the software. And I was like, oh, man, these people are on it. Like they're gonna keep, you know, they're gonna keep going. And it's just super. And you can see how that translates to the population who now just a handful of years later, it's like, oh, my watch will probably tell me my blood sugar one day, like people are actually hopeful. And that's a it's really something because I imagined when you were growing up some of there was no hope that anything was happening like that. That meter you got was what you had for 15 years, right?
Simma 43:02
Yeah, well, well, my dad to the female doctor, the second or third, the doctor we went to after Dr. Bernstein, she used to tell my mother like, oh, in like 20 years, there'll be a cure. But then, you know, there wasn't, didn't really seem to be progress towards a cure. And then I kind of went into like, oh, they'll never be a cure. You know, but now I feel like even if this is, as far as it gets, and I don't think this will be as far as it gets, like you're saying I think it's tip of the iceberg. And you see with every new, you know, year or two, something new is coming out, you know if this is as good as it gets, this is pretty good.
Scott Benner 43:36
Yeah, boy, it's not bad. I'll tell you. But Naomi, what's the other side of that? Like, because people who are newly diagnosed are very impatient. I find aren't because they they expect they expect cell phone progress. Like you don't I mean, like every year somebody goes here, it's a new phone, the cameras better It's this. It's this. It's this, we made this improvement. Like, that's how people want things. Do you see that? Like, do you see like the what's the question? Like, you know, when you're online, and there's like a Dexcom server outage. And so people lose their CGM for a little while. And the newer diagnose people are just like their Scarlett O'Hara, they've got their, their forearm to their head, and they're like, they've got the vapors and everything's going wrong. And this is it. We're all gonna die. And the older people are like, Yo, just chill out. It's okay, like test a couple of times. Like, do you see that difference? Yeah,
Naomi 44:33
I mean, maybe because I'm older, I don't get to, you know, it works fine for me. And if something happens, or it's out or my sensor, or my sensors a little wonky, so I just report the issue to Dexcom I don't like I don't go crazy. I also I'm not managing a child's diabetes, which sure let me I mean, I have a friend. Her son was diagnosed when he was a baby and he's nine now we have me and me and this kid happens at the same birthday. So it's just you know, we became close me and the mom And it's hard. He's on Omnipod. Five, she doesn't know what he's eating and when. And she has a totally different experience managing his diabetes than I have managing my own, you know, using Omnipod? Five? Sure. I don't think Omnipod five works that well, when you're you're not Bolus and correctly.
Scott Benner 45:16
So nothing does. But I think yeah.
Naomi 45:20
Sorry, I lost my
Scott Benner 45:21
note, oh, while you're getting, I'll just say that. That's an interesting take, too, is that, oh, I'll use an automated system. And I'll just slap it on and it's going to work. It's still all settings, understanding how insulin works, understanding the impacts of your food, like that has not changed about diabetes, whether it's an algorithm or not an algorithm. And, and but there's a whole new generation of people who are gonna think, like magic, like this is this is magic. I'll put this on. And that's it. I won't need to know anything, but we're not there. We're not there to that point yet.
Naomi 45:53
Yeah, it's still it still takes effort. But yeah, I mean, I'm not you know, I'm not one of those who gets excited when I didn't watch the movie about pancreas transplant, or, I mean, it's working for me now. It does take effort. I am a little envious of people who can eat anything whenever they want. You know, but
Scott Benner 46:14
yeah, it is what it is. Right? But and that's, that's, uh, did you suffer that? Or are you just kind of, I'm gonna call this is funny. I just realized if I was alone with Naomi, I'd say, Well, you sound level headed. And then I realized her sisters here who might just like start laughing if I say something like that. But, but it's just a more mature, like, seasoned response.
Naomi 46:34
Yeah. And someone said to me, when I was diagnosed, he's like, You should be very thankful you were diagnosed now and not, you know, in the 1980s. And I am. I mean, I don't want to be diagnosed, I don't want to have type one. You know, like, like the war in the Ukraine. Like I stocked up my army pods I stocked up I make sure to refill my prescriptions immediately. I mean, I'm totally reliant on medication now, which is a little scary for someone who wasn't, I mean, all I took was Synthroid, which even that my husband's like StyleCop stuff up.
Scott Benner 47:01
So there's a war in the Ukraine it made you get extra insulin pumps?
Naomi 47:05
Well, no, I just made sure to refill my prescription is like, I don't let it lapse. Because yeah, because that was one of the things that people couldn't get their insulin. Naomi, I'm married, I'm married to like a prepper.
Scott Benner 47:18
This paranoia is why there's a run on banks right now. That's everybody. We don't do any. Because everybody can't just be like, oh, yeah, I'm sure the banking system is gonna collapse in 20 to
Naomi 47:29
49 years. I didn't need insulin to live and now I do.
Scott Benner 47:33
So it becomes very important. No, I understand. Listen, I think anyone who's had diabetes has daydreamed, what they'll do, when the zombies come, like what pharmacy will like go to and steal all the insulin from immediately. How am I going to keep things cold? Like Arden, I had a conversation once we were watching Walking Dead back when it was cool. And she's like, Oh, I guess I'd be dead pretty quick, huh? And I was like, I was like, I mean, yeah. I didn't even know what else to say. You know, it was like, I'm sure we could scavenge some stuff. But you know, there wouldn't be refrigeration. And I mean, the insulin would probably still work, even though it was unrefrigerated, not the way it's intended to, but maybe we could stretch it out a little bit. And she's like, so a couple of months. And I was like, yeah, that's like, well, we could find like running water to keep it cold. I was like, that's an idea. Like a like a, like a stream, and we're having this conversation that you should have seen how like, matter of factly she was just like, Oh, okay. All right. She wasn't upset by it. She was just like, oh, I don't make it through the apocalypse. Got it. So it was interesting.
Simma 48:40
Well, we, I mean, it's, I totally relate to what Naomi saying, and we are four grandparents were Holocaust survivors. So I think that some of it comes from there. I mean, I always say like, if there was another holocaust, I would be one of the people who didn't make it. Because, you know, I, I'm too reliant. You know, I'm too reliant on on the medication. So and I also used to be a soccer rapper until my insurance started costing an arm and a leg for everything. And now I don't stack up as much because it's just unaffordable.
Scott Benner 49:18
I had a thought where to go? Dammit. I started thinking something stupid. And then I was pushing this stupid thought out of my head and I lost my real Listen, me plus low iron. You know what I mean? So that's all I got. I'm gonna jump over my question and come to a different one. And then I'll I'll circle back if I think of it again. So I'm interested Naomi, you reach out into the world and find the podcast. So I'm gonna ask them a quick question that go back to you. So semi Did you have any contact or community around diabetes? So I knew
Simma 49:54
here and there, I knew individuals with diabetes who I was is not necessarily close to and did not necessarily speak to all the time. And I'd say my control was good to really good, but maybe not rates. And I was kind of just going along. Okay, you know, I, you know, I've been told for my whole life that seven was the gold standard. So if I was like, 6.5 I'm like, This is great, you know. And it actually took the perspective of someone newly diagnosed to be, you know, I wasn't really I thought, like, Oh, I know everything. You know, I could have found out about the tandem probably like two years before I did if I actually was connected the way she ended up being connected. Yeah. So she found the podcast, and she told me about it. And I was like, oh, okay, maybe I'll listen, you know what I don't I don't need I don't need to know anything. And it really helped. I mean, I would say like you didn't say anything that I didn't know or didn't think about already, but just kind of hearing it being reminded. I was I was not a big Pre-Bolus, sir, at all. Yeah. Sorry about that. And since I listened to the podcast, I'm much more careful that people thing and that has made a huge difference. Huge.
Scott Benner 51:09
I've heard this before. I'm glad. I've heard this before people have had diabetes for a long time, we'll say, Yeah, listen to the podcast. And I mean, you didn't say a ton of things I didn't know. And I and I always think when people say that I was thinking like he had diabetes for 20 years. Like he must have figured some of this out. Right. But But then the second part of what you said, is there a big takeaway, if the podcast is really valuable to them, they say it's it's just a reminder, and they listen to people's conversations. And that's what kind of keeps them, I guess, connected with what they need to do. And I think that's terrific. It was certainly not something I envisioned. But I've heard about it so many times now that I'm just completely sure of it. Like, like, some people are like, Why do you have so many episodes, and I was like, because I don't think of this as the diabetes podcast, I think of it as a podcast, first of all, and I think that, if I put up three conversations with three different people a week, you know, I don't expect that you're going to listen to all three of them. But I like you to have choice. And I like you to be engaged. And and then of course, we'd like to walk, you know, and then bring in some management talk every week, so that people can kind of like just refreshed a little bit and keep going. Like, I'm trying to have a long term view of it. And what you just said, makes me feel really, really good about that. So thank you. So Naomi, how do you find the pot?
Simma 52:30
Yeah, and I am sorry?
Scott Benner 52:31
No, sorry, can
Simma 52:33
I just say one more thing, you'll be happy, you'll be happy. Let me say this, you always say that you're not such a smart guy. And you're, you know, if you could figure it out anyone can, I have to say you really have a gift. I mean, I'm an editor and a writer. So I'm very into words, and you really do have a gift for the way you explain things the whole way you go over the tug of war of the insulin and the food like that is a great visual. And again, even though that was something I knew to hear it but like that, it just, it gives you a different perspective to be able to visualize it like that. So I have to disagree with your assessment that you're not so smart.
Scott Benner 53:07
Maybe I'm just being folksy when I say that. How about on the last episode of the podcast, I'll tell everybody my IQ. You want to do that? Because I happen to know it because they tested it a lot when I was a kid, which by the way is not the first time kindergarten, knock knock knock on the kindergarten door. I can picture myself standing on the door next to Mrs. Moon, who was my kindergarten teacher. And Naomi, I have no long term memory. So that I know that is this is a real memory. The the gentleman from the guidance office was outside she went outside chatted with him quietly walked back in brought me in the hall. Now I was fairly certain that they'd caught me doing something terrible. And I was going down even though I was five years old. I was like, Oh, this is it. They got me. So I get out there and she bends down. And she's in one of those like, like, it's just a classic 70s thing. Like she had horn rimmed glasses and a long dress. And you know, and she says, this is the guidance counselor, she introduces him by name and says, He wants you to go take a test. And I was like, for what? And he goes, this is this was the explanation. And trust me, this is not what you should say to children because it's still with me, all these years later, and it wasn't good. She said they think you're smarter than the other kids. And I was like, and there it is right there. That's probably my ego right there probably started when I was five. I was like, I am smarter than these little idiots. I look around, I see that Dobby looks on their faces. I'm taking this whole thing over. But no, they sent me I got my first IQ test. And then my score remained exactly the same every time they gave it to me for years, and they would pull me in there constantly and make me take it over and over again. But I never did well in school. I was actually a poor student, like a C plus As I was like walking around, like I had 105, I was like I did it. I'm like, over the sea. And I wouldn't have gotten my first real adult job, where I wasn't working my ass off if the if part of the hiring process wasn't an IQ test, like I sat down to get a job. And they said, We want you to take this test. I was like, whatever. So I start filling it out. And I looked up at the person and I said, Hey, this is an IQ test. And she goes, How do you know that? And I said, this is like the 30th one I've ever taken. This is an IQ test. So I rolled through it, gave it to her. And like 10 minutes later, they came out, they're like, you're hired. I was like, Okay. And then the lady behind her goes, by has a good score you on that task. And I was like, Cool. Thanks. And I didn't, I was so like, blue collar and poor, that I was just like, lost, someone's gonna give me a job where there are chairs and air conditioning that's like this amazing. Like, this is really, but But I swear to you, I don't understand algebra. I don't really know where commas go. I don't understand any of the things that classically you're supposed to understand coming out of high school. My brain just works a weird way. That's all. So anyway, after this is over, I'll tell you guys my IQ, but not on. Okay, but I appreciate you saying that. What I have found and I don't know if I've ever said this in the podcast before. But I think the thing you're giving me credit for is happenstance. Because I grew up in a very blue collar home because I was adopted by people who were not related to. And so they were just lovely, decent, like, hard working, you know, people, they didn't have extra money, they didn't go on a vacation. And I think that what you're hearing is a blend of how my brain works, and how I was raised mixed together. I think that's why it occurs to me to tell people about a Bolus, like it's a tug of war, instead of saying something that sounds like I learned it in college. And I actually think that's why the podcast is helpful to people, because I'm a blend of like two different cultures. But Naomi, I wanted to ask you, like, how did you find the podcast? And what did it do for you?
Naomi 57:10
Oh, I mean, as I said, I knew nothing. And nobody was helping me. My sister was helping me but you know, I mean, I guess, for her, she, you know, she's had it for so many years. I think I read things like a pancreas. But books are not like super dynamic. You know, a lot of the information was a little older. I think just one night, I Googled type one diabetes podcasts. And I listened to a different one. And I was like, okay, and then I started listening to yours. And I guess I found the Jenny episodes and things like that. And I was like, wow, this is what I need to know. Yeah, you know, nobody told me a thing about Pre-Bolus thing. Nobody told me anything. And I just started listening. And, you know, one thing that you say that really I have your voice in my head a lot is if you know it's going to happen, it's going to happen, you know, don't keep doing the same thing every day. Because I have the same breakfast every day. And it literally if I, if I tweak it differently, sometimes I'll go up very high. And sometimes I'll be very flat. So like, today, I did the thing that keeps it very flat, I Pre-Bolus for a little longer. So just just things like that they you know, and, you know, now when I go to the doctor, like I hate going to the doctor, because I just feel it's just such a waste of my time. I feel like if you know how to if you know how to manage your type one diabetes, well, day in and day out. You shouldn't have to go to a doctor.
Scott Benner 58:34
That why do you think that? Because they're
Naomi 58:36
they're literally sitting there. They weigh me they take my blood pressure. They ask them some questions. They're billing my insurance. They're not giving me any information that I need. Yeah, nothing. I get nothing from my doctor, other than my prescription. I mean, as an adult, it's a disease that you're living with Daly and other than my labs, I mean, any my lab, they're not telling me anything. Yeah.
Scott Benner 58:59
I did a survey, right. I don't know if you saw it. Give me a second SIM. I'll come right back to you. I did a survey recently. I got over, I don't know, like 1100 listeners to the podcast to take a survey. Listen, I'm not a professional survey writer. So I'm sure there are people who will read it and be like, You didn't ask the right questions. But here's what I got out of the survey two to one people trust the podcast over their physician. And that was really that threw me off. Like I just I know, we talked about it. And you know, people tell the same story. Like you know, that's the nice guy with the prescription pad that I go see every once in a while. But I was like, I just didn't think it would be that stark, like the numbers are so stark. I don't even know if I'm gonna share them with people. It looks like they're made up. And
Naomi 59:44
I mean, I will say if it was a functional doctor, like the doctor you interviewed, but you can't even see a functional doctor on insurance. So I mean, a functional doctor I think would help me because she'd be looking at me as a whole as opposed to just my labs. Yeah, but um, With the doctors I'm seeing now. I mean, so my doctor was away on vacation. They're like, do you want to see the nurse practitioner? I'm like, Sure, I'll see anyone. I don't owe the PA, I don't care who I see. They're all they're all basically doing the same thing. They're checking my numbers for a few minutes. And then they're writing me that and they're refilling my prescriptions. Yeah.
Scott Benner 1:00:17
Your point about that it's not last like I saw Addy, like I told you, I don't know if I said on the recording or not, but she's trying to help me with my iron and everything. And my first sit down appointment with her was 90 minutes long. Like, we sat for an hour, like it included, like a physical inspection of my carcass. But we also like, you know, like we were in there talking about, like, she's like, start at the beginning. And like, as a child, and I went through my whole life, and everything I could remember about my health, my digestion, like all the things that I thought were pertinent to why it was there. And she did such a comprehensive blood draw. And but you're not wrong, like I have to pay or in cash. Now I can turn it into my insurance, and they will probably cover like 60% of it. But it's still like, if you want somebody to sit and Doctor House with you, it's not going to happen inside of the system, the system just doesn't allow for that. And a lot of us have issues that that need more than just like, oh, I ran a lab and this is it. And like, we're all good now. Right? Yeah, it's really something. Now, some of you were gonna jump in and say something. Do you remember what it was?
Simma 1:01:27
I think that what Naomi saying? And what your two to one podcast, listeners are saying are accurate for people like us who take charge of their health and correct, you know, I'm not afraid to change to I just adjusted my Basal rate last night, I'm not one of those who says, well, in two and a half months, when I go into my endocrinologist, I'll ask her, if I can raise my basil by point one from 10pm. to midnight, you know? So some people maybe do need to go to the doctor, what can I say?
Scott Benner 1:01:57
Yeah, but I think what happens with what you're saying is, is that some people need to be reminded or pushed, or, you know, just, or sometimes they don't see the forest for the trees, like, like, all the things are in front of them. And they go, I don't know, like, I see two plus two, but I don't know what that equals. And so that's what a doctor ends up doing. They ask you how you are you tell them a little story, and they try to infer from your story what what's going on with you. And then they make some suggestions. If you're lucky, and you have a decent doctor, and there are people who then can use these conversations in the podcast to do that for themselves, like a sounding board that doesn't talk back to them. That guy Oh, I heard that. I maybe should look at my whatever. Pre-Bolus my basil, my carb ratio. And I think it's just it's the conversation, it's the conversation you need that you don't get at most doctors unless you're gonna pay them. I mean, honestly, two $300 for a visit, because cash doctors are, you know, they're cash doctors. And also they're not all good. We took Arden to somebody wants for her issues, and nothing came of it. It was just it was like a hippie lady sitting in a room like, you know, pontificating about what could be and what could be, but she wasn't good at really figuring things out. And he's terrific. Like, she's really something actually, I want to mention here. And I hope this has been appreciated. Some of the I've gotten your sister to say your name correctly. She's now saying CYMA, have you heard it's very hard, very, very hard. I'm not going to get the right credit for this, although I think she's going to flip back as soon as we get off this record. Is there anything we haven't talked about that you guys wanted to? I want to make sure I'm not missing anything.
Naomi 1:03:43
I mean, I just want to say that, you know, whatever you're doing, keep doing because you're really helping people. So many people will be. I mean, so many people are having better results because of the podcast. I mean, I'm sure I'm just one of many, many people.
Scott Benner 1:03:57
Thank you. That's very nice. I don't know how many people listen, because oddly, that's not information Apple shares with people. But I see the downloads. And I can tell you that we're talking in March. We're It's mid March right now it's 2023. This year, this calendar year, got to a million downloads in like 57 days. And I went from 10 million to 11 million in less than two months. As far as that's download streams. Like however, somebody listens to the show. And this week, in the first three days of this week, the podcast had twice as many downloads as it did in 2015. Which is insane. So it reaches people because I think because people have like Naomi like she had an experience. And she looked up and said, Oh, I know a person with diabetes. I'll tell them about it. And then you know, you know a kid who has it and I'm sure you've told them and similar Have you told people about the podcast? Definitely. Oh, yeah, and see, that's just what happens. So the truth of it is, is it's, it's easy to digest good information. And it does a lot of other things that I don't talk about as much. But we spoke about earlier today, like, just supporting the idea of keeping you motivated, which I think is what most of these motivation podcasts aren't like, you know, ex Marines who are screaming at you to get up at 4am and go for a run on their podcast or whatever, like anywhere in between. It's just somebody reminding you like, Hey, do a thing, hey, do a thing. Hey, do a thing. And anyway,
Simma 1:05:32
I don't think so that Can I can I disagree? I don't think you're just reminding people, I think that you're showing them that it's possible based on your care of art, and you're showing them that it's possible. Okay. Yeah, I think that that's very powerful.
Scott Benner 1:05:47
Right? I appreciate that. And it is, it's funny, too, because the, the show has become such a thing. This is gonna sound like a brag, but the show like, regularly charts in the top 15 of its category, right. And if you look at the shows that are above it, they're all run by like, corporations, or groups of people. And like, I'm going away tomorrow to see my kids. And so I'm going to be gone for like 10 days. So I did do three work weeks worth of work in the last like eight days, so that I can go away. And because the podcast is just me, the reason I bring that up is because I get lost in what it is sometimes, because the thing you just said, is something that I used to say all the time, which is early on, when I made this podcast, the the vibe in the diabetes community was that you never shared any good news you had, because it would make other people feel bad if they were struggling. And I heard that, and I always rubbed up against that. I always thought that that's not right. Like if So you're telling me that there are people out there who know how to do these things. And they're off somewhere not thinking about diabetes very often with some a one C and the fives and a great prognosis for their life and everything. And they're not going to say anything, because it might hurt someone's feelings. I was like, I don't I don't buy into that. Like, I think that's aspirational. And I think if we set it up as aspirational, instead of setting it up through a victim mentality, which is kind of how it was set up in the past, if you can't say what is good for you, because it makes me sad. Like, alright, we'll get over that. Because the things that I know are going to help you if you stop wanting to have your feelings hurt and start wanting to have, like some of these experiences for yourself. Like it's right there. So I agree with you. I think it's, I think the aspirational nature of it is really important. I just forget to talk about it. Because I've been doing this for so long. And often what you hear from me, it's just what's ever, like more top of my mind or more, I guess prevalent in my life at the moment when I'm talking. But I appreciate you saying that because I believe I well, I
Simma 1:07:59
went back, I went back to some older episodes when my sister told me about it. I mean, I'm still on the 400. So I've listened to some newer ones, like when you have the Dexcom people on or certain ones I listened to right away, but mostly I've kind of been working through them.
Scott Benner 1:08:14
For such a treat, I get so much better at this, like 2000 19,020. And my microphone gets better. Your interest, your interest.
Simma 1:08:25
I think I passed that one already where you said you had the new microphone.
Scott Benner 1:08:29
I'm still I'm still if you brought it up right now we were sitting around having coffee, which I wouldn't be drinking because I've never had coffee, but I just meant sitting around drinking something. I'm so mad about that first microphone. Still, I could have bought this mic. And I didn't know. And I tried to save a little money. It still makes me upset anyway. All right. So what are we going over? You guys didn't know each other growing up that what was going on with diabetes? You obviously have a very close relationship now over it. I'm terrific. What else? Have we missed anything? This is it right?
Simma 1:08:59
Like Well, I just have one funny, you know, slightly funny story to share. So I'm like you we actually were very good students, while all 505 of us were very good students. And recently we were at an event and I actually gave my brother in law, Naomi's husband, my phone because I wasn't going to really be able to have access to my phone and I said, please watch my phone and let me know if I'm going high or going low. We need to make any adjustments or whatever. And he also had, he was following her numbers on the follow up. So I think either he said it or one of her kids said it they're like this was the first time that one of the wants to have the lower number.
Scott Benner 1:09:39
Grades. That's fantastic. It was really funny. I did not have that problem. I needed two classes to get 100 points. I would have had to like add English to math and then I could add an egg. Yeah, I don't know. It's really strange. And I'm not a proponent of it. By the way. I really like when my kids were in school. I was like you do good. And they did, by the way, but I just didn't. I mean, if I had to, if I had to guess I didn't grow up with people whose minds work the way mine did. And their expectation was I'd get a job in my uncle's sheetmetal shop, and that I just had to live through these first 18 years that I was allowed to work. Like it was it was kind of more like that. Anyway, all right, you guys were absolutely terrific. I have to go because I'm gonna get my iron infusion, I need to get ready for that. And I'm very excited. Like, you know, when you when you hear parents go like black, the things you're excited about, when you're a parent, this is the best thing that's happened to me all year. I appreciate there's no luck, I will sit there, they'll put an IV in 45 minutes later, I will leave. And just like that, I will have the correct amount of ferritin and iron and iron binding capacity and all the things that I do not have at the moment. And hopefully Addy and I can figure out why that is and put a stop to it. My bet is this is completely conjecture. But my bet is, this might be a thyroid thing for me. So we're gonna find out when all the bloodwork comes back,
Naomi 1:11:06
bring it back. We want a new episode. I tell
Scott Benner 1:11:09
her all the time when I speak to her I'm like, you know, I tell her how many like downloads her episode has. And she's just like, that's amazing. She talks about I should let her talk about it. But we talked in my appointment just real quickly about. She wants to she's starting to have that pressure about. I'm not reaching enough people. And she's starting to think about just making videos and putting them online and stuff like that. So alright, yeah, she's got a ton of information. Right. Okay, guys, I do have to jump. Thank you so much for doing this. I really appreciate it. Thank you for that. Oh, it's my pleasure. Really. It was nice. Thank you. Both of you. Hold on one second, okay.
I want to thank Seema and Naomi for coming on the show today and sharing their rather interesting story with us. I also want to thank us Med, U. S. med.com/juice box are called 888-721-1514. Actually, that number is specifically special for Juicebox Podcast listeners. Get started today with us med. You're going to love it. Having your supplies just show up at the house is. It's really fantastic takes a weight off your shoulders. I want to thank you for listening and remind you about the private Facebook group Juicebox Podcast, type one diabetes, head over there. Now go to the feature tab. Look into all the different series within the podcast or check it out at juicebox podcast.com. Once there was a time when I just told people if you want a low and stable a one C just listen to the Juicebox Podcast. But as the years went on, and the podcast episodes grew, it became more and more difficult for people to listen to everyone. So I made the diabetes Pro Tip series. This series is with me and Jenny Smith. Jenny is a Certified diabetes Care and Education Specialist. She's also a registered and licensed dietitian and a type one herself for over 30 years and I of course, am the father of a child who was diagnosed at age two in 2006. The Pro Tip series begins at episode 210 with an episode called newly diagnosed are starting over and from there all about MDI Pre-Bolus Singh insulin pumping, pumping and nudging variables exercise illness, injury surgeries glucagon long term health bumping and nudging how to explain type one to your family. Postpartum honeymoon transitioning all about insulin Temp Basal. These are all different episodes, setting your Basal insulin, fat and protein pregnancy, the glycemic index and load and so much more like female hormones and weight loss. Head now to juicebox podcast.com. Go up in the menu at the top and click on diabetes pro tip. Or if you're in the private Facebook group, there's a list of these episodes right in the feature tab. Find out how I helped keep my daughter's a one C between five two and six two for the last 10 years without diet restrictions juicebox podcast.com Start listening today. It's absolutely free.
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#1059 Parenting: Building Positive Communication
Scott and Erika talk about building positive communication. They discuss reflective listening and the recurring reasons behind miscommunication.
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DISCLAIMER: This text is the output of AI based transcribing from an audio recording. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors and should not be treated as an authoritative record. Nothing that you read here constitutes advice medical or otherwise. Always consult with a healthcare professional before making changes to a healthcare plan.
Scott Benner 0:00
Hello friends, and welcome to episode 1059 of the Juicebox Podcast. It took me four times to record that correctly
Erica Forsyth is back today as we continue on our parenting series. While you're listening, please remember that nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise, always consult a physician before making any changes to your health care plan. Also, while you're listening, remember that if you live in California or a number of other states, Erica Forsythe is available to be your therapist. Check her out at Erica forsythe.com Speaking of dot coms cozy earth.com use the offer code juice box at checkout save 40% off for your sheets your towels and your beautiful comfortable clothing and ag one drink ag one.com/juice box get five free travel backs in the year supply of vitamin D with your first purchase at my link. Check out the defining diabetes bold beginnings Pro Tip series type two Pro Tip series all kinds of great content from the Juicebox Podcast about your diabetes is available. If you would like to see lists of them go to juicebox podcast.com. Go up to the top to the menu it will take you all through it. Or if you're in the private Facebook group, head over to the feature tab where you'll see lists of all the series
this episode of The Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by the contour next gen blood glucose meter. Absolutely fantastic, incredibly accurate. Wonderful Second Chance test strips. What am I talking about the contour next gen contour next.com/juicebox But if you haven't heard the remastered Pro Tip series that goes from Episode 1000 to 1026 There are special contour next gen ads just in the Pro Tip series. And I'm just going to tell you go over to the Pro Tip series. Check out those ads for the contour next gen because there's a special link in there. If you're a US resident and this is while supplies last so do not dilly dally, absolutely free meter. Just go to the website, fill out the thing. Boom, here comes the meter. today's podcast is also sponsored by better help, you will save 10% off your first month of therapy at my link better help.com/juicebox Welcome back. We're doing Episode Two today of our parenting series that does not have a title yet.
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 2:40
So yeah, it might just be the the parenting series, actually called
Scott Benner 2:44
the parenting series without a title. But last week for Episode One, we talked about different parenting styles. So if you want to go back to that episode, tell me what they are again,
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 2:56
authoritarian, authoritative, uninvolved, slash neglectful, and permissive.
Scott Benner 3:05
And we did a nice conversation that discuss the four of those reasons why they might be sometimes negative or positive? Or how to kind of see it in yourself if you're doing it. And today, we're going to do Oh, I like this one. building positive communication. Yes, this is great. I'm going to tell you, I think that most of the problems I've experienced in my life with other people are in some way, shape or form based on a miscommunication. So yes, it can't be It can't be stressed enough how important this is. When people come into you? Do they always come singularly? Or do they come as family sometimes,
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 3:46
actually, both, I will have often one caregiver reach out with the intent of me supporting their child or teen. Often it's really beneficial to weave in some sessions with the parent and the child. I think it would be amazing to have more, you know, parent, whole family sessions would be wonderful. That is logistically challenging. A lot of the time. Yes.
Scott Benner 4:15
So when you get them in a room together, do you sort of sit back and watch the dynamic? Or do you ask questions? Is it a mix of that? Like how do you get to how do you get to the part where you have can make an assessment about what's happening?
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 4:31
Yes, oftentimes if I have a parent and a child in the room, often I have heard from both of them individually of the of quote, what is the problem? And then it's really beneficial for me to see the dynamic play out. Where you know, is one person cutting off the other is one person misunderstanding the other? Are they really aligned and understand validating each other and prac dissing reflective listening, we'll get into some of these terms. So yes, it's I often like to see and observe their communication and their dynamic play out so that I can help intervene.
Scott Benner 5:13
Do people assess the other person's intention? Well, normally or does is that the basis of a bad communication? Like you just don't understand? Maybe, maybe our maybe our speech styles are different, or one person is like very black and white minded, and the other person speaks an allegory or something like that. Like, is there confusion there? Like with how people talk? I guess my question is, do you find that mostly people's intentions are good?
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 5:40
Yes, yes. I think the well, they're a they're in the room. They're seeking, they're seeking help they have some awareness that there's a problem, right? So there's already that they're leaning into, hey, we want to we want to address something, or maybe sometimes we're not quite sure what the problem is. And oftentimes, maybe it's an assumption of, you know, assuming what is wrong, or assuming how we're miscommunicate. There's oftentimes there's assumptions that are interfering with the appropriate communication.
Scott Benner 6:10
Yeah. And so that's kind of how you think of it is its assumptions, like, I hear one thing, but my assumption is, you mean this, or you said it because of this, even though you're not telling me. So it is kind of a human thing to expect that the person you're communicating with is, has some sort of an ulterior motive that you're not aware of, is that right?
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 6:30
Yes. There's when you just practice some really good reflective listening in terms of you just I just said something, and you said, No, I hear you saying assumptions. That was really, that's really good. So is there an ulterior motive?
Scott Benner 6:46
Well, not if there is, but do people assume there is like, Do people just assume that they're not being told the whole truth that something's being held back? And that, does that cause a little bit of the problem, because I think the personality that just believes everybody? They're not going to be upset by anything you say? Because they're just going to take you on face value and move on. But if I'm the person who's like, well, what are they really mean by that? Or what are they trying to accomplish? I'm always trying to work out what the other person is up to, then I could be putting on them thoughts and ideas that they don't have? And I don't know, it just it seems to me like, it shouldn't be that hard to say what you mean, for someone to hear it? And for you to absorb it. But it's it's one of the most difficult things on the planet? You don't
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 7:34
I mean? Absolutely.
Scott Benner 7:37
I don't even know what my question is, like, really, like, just like, what people are gonna get. Everyone listening has a misunderstanding going on with someone right now. And they genuinely probably believe that they're on the right side of that disagreement. But both people think they're on the right side of that disagreement. So either they don't, you don't want to hear the other person or you're not interested in the other person worry, you steadfastly believe that you're coming from a good place. So that must mean they're not coming from a good place. That's the assumption I think is that's it took me a minute
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 8:14
that I'm right, and you're wrong. Yeah. That either my belief is right, or my position on this point is right, and you're wrong. And so there, that's where people get into a you know, they're frozen, right? They can't they can't move past whatever the argument is, if one person is believing they're right, and the other person's wrong, then guarantee that the other person is believing the same, same, right? So they're not going to budge.
Scott Benner 8:42
And what's the extension of that? If I'm right, you must be willfully ignoring me or not worth listening to, or, or whatever, because I told someone this the other day, I hope there's no personal details on this, but my daughter has been using a contour meter for years. The contour next gen blood glucose meter is the latest in that line, contour next.com/juicebox. The contour next gen features remarkable accuracy, and second chance test strips. That's right second, chance sampling can help you to avoid wasting strips. There's actually a study that says that people can waste up to 100 strips a year due to application errors, but you won't have that trouble because the contour next gen strips Oh, my goodness gracious actually the contour next trips that work with all of their meters feature Second Chance sampling means you can kind of like get a little blood not be enough and go back and get more without interrupting the accuracy of the test. And then amazing contour next one.com/juice box, head over there now. Click All through the website. There's a bunch of glucose monitors their info ration about all kinds of stuff, test strips, and places online where you can buy your meters and your strips right now, where they may very well be cheaper in cash than you're paying through your insurance. Contour next one.com/juicebox Fantastic meter fantastic deal. I can't, I can't recommend that enough. I kind of moderated a problem online, by having a private like quick conversation with a person. And that person comes in and to my, like, a DM with me and says, Look, I'm an adult, but I, you know, I have autism, and I have trouble, like hearing tone. Sometimes I'm kind of Curt with people, you know, you know, I'm not trying to cause a problem here. And, and we chatted back and forth for a second. And at the end, I offered this like, advice. And I said, Look, I don't know if this is applicable to you. But the way I moderate this place so efficiently, or in a way that people generally speaking, are very happy with it, is I just assumed that everyone is right and wrong. But moreover, that it doesn't matter. Like like that. We're not trying to prove who's right. And yes, you're here for one reason, they're here for another reason. Sometimes your reasons are the same. Sometimes they're different. Anyway, this person's come here, they need something, give it to them. Don't ask them why they need it. Don't equivocate, don't tell them, oh, you know, what you really should be concerned about the thing that I care about, just answer their question the best you can. So they can move on with this information. And that I mean, that's how I handle it. But the response back from this person was, I can't do that. Like, I have a very strong feeling of right and wrong. And I was like, oh, oh, I see. super interesting. And and I think only because this person maybe is on the spectrum, were they even willing to tell me that I think everyone feels that way. Right? I think that person was only willing to tell me because they're accustomed to explaining their situation when they get into those. Anyway, the situation for those people?
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 12:08
I don't know, props to that person for having that awareness. Wouldn't it be great if we entered into a conversation saying, Hey, I leaned this way in a conversation, I can speak over you I can be rude. I can be Curt, you know.
Scott Benner 12:20
That's exactly what I was thinking. Actually, I actually said, tell them that, like, just say that, because I think it fixes the whole problem. You mean, you still need the person on the other side to understand their shortcomings or whatever. But is there? I mean, you've done this for a long time, right? Is there a thing like a central thought you have about why people have trouble communicating? Like if I asked you, like, boil it down to a thought?
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 12:47
I think people have trouble communicating, because they are two things. I don't know if I could do one reason two things, they are either not listening, or they are misunderstanding what the person is trying to communicate. Or the person is not communicating clearly. So three things, right. Right. So there's, there's the as we've talked about before, there's the sender and the receiver. And if the sender isn't being clear, and there's interference, the receivers not going to hear the message correctly, if the receiver is thinking about what they're going to do tonight, or they're irritated about the thing that just happened 10 minutes before, even if the sender is communicating, clearly, the receivers not going to hear it accurately. So the sender and the receiver have their own stuff going on. And then there's the delivery. And they all have to be in alignment for the message to be delivered and received correctly.
Scott Benner 13:37
But if we can't get them in alignment, what do I do on my side to make it okay, like, so I can tell you what I do. I don't know if it's right or not. I have this basic feeling that when I'm dealing with somebody, so there's two different types of people that I'm either dealing with the person who I have knowledge of, or I'm dealing with the person I don't have knowledge of, when I deal with a person I have knowledge of it is always my assumption that they are coming from a good place. So even if I don't understand what they're saying, or even if it doesn't make sense, I never jumped to what the hell's wrong with you, I always say with, I must just not be understanding this correctly, or they must not be saying it correctly. But overall, I've been with this person for 20 years, 15 years, I've known this person for 30 years. I know their intentions are good. I just assumed their intentions are good. And then with just that one act, it all goes away. You know, and when I'm dealing with a stranger who I can't make the assumption that they're good, I just give them the benefit of the doubt. And by giving them the benefit of the doubt it releases me from having to judge them. Does that make sense?
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 14:50
Well, yes, and releases you from heartache or defensiveness or attacking or reacting, right you're you are responding when you are entering into a conversation from that grounded place of they're doing the best they can, right or they have they have good intentions or they, you know, are trying to communicate something, you are not going to automatically react in an inappropriate way. My best
Scott Benner 15:15
example would be you could live next door to somebody forever, be lovely people have nothing but good experiences with them. Been there for three and a half years, great people, etc, then all of a sudden election comes up, and they throw a sign in their front yard. And it disagrees with your idea. And you think what's wrong with them? If you just continue to think they've got thoughts and ideas that are different than mine? They're still the same people that were before because we all say that all the time, right? Like, what's the what's the thing you hear him like the political realm all the time, like the assumption is, most people are well meaning and probably fairly centric with their thinking, like, great, most people are probably not real far one way or the other. And that we all sort of have the same concerns, you know, freedom, liberty, food, shelter, health care, that kind of stuff. But as soon as we get down deep, and we're looking for something to argue about, it's super easy to go, Well, there's a difference. I'll focus on that difference. Taking it out of politics and bringing it back into a personal conversation. The minute you it's wrong, the minute you feel like something they said is wrong. It's like an attack point. And now you're not. Can you hear that thunder? Yes. Oh, it's gonna be the last last episode ever. When you're in the middle of that, I think that people defend their feelings. And I think people get confused with their ideas and who they are. I think they commingle their ideas with who they are, oh, if that makes sense or not. And then they're that human thing comes in, I want to win, I want to be right. I want to be on the right side of this. Like Bob, even even when it's you looking across at somebody you've been married to for 20 years, for some reason, you're trying to beat them in this conversation. It's ridiculous are your kids who you would 10 minutes ago, have maybe jumped in front of a car to help now you're in the middle of their bedroom, saying something absolutely ridiculous to them, because you don't want to be whatever, like wrong, or I don't know, you gotta let it go.
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 17:21
That's all I'm saying? Well, and it's the ability to either let it go or enter into the conversation from a really stable posture is dependent on all the other things that happened to that night, that morning, at work with whoever you interacted with your past trauma, right. So all of that is at play in every touchpoint that we have when we communicate with our partners, our friends, or our co workers. And it's hard, it's hard to constantly be in tune with how we're feeling as we communicate. But the first step is yes, just having that awareness of how where am I? Where am I today, as I enter into this conversation, without attacking, responding,
Scott Benner 18:05
it's interesting how quickly someone can get lit up and let go of all that stuff. You know, like the, this is just verbal, obviously. But you can even see how that path leads to like abusive behavior to like, how do you let go in that moment of, that's the person like, that's my person right there. And now suddenly, everything you're doing is acting like they're a non consequential punching bag. And it's really, really something so. So we know this is important, right to have healthy communication, know how to resolve conflict. But that's not easy either. Right? We don't get taught how to resolve conflict at all.
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 18:45
Correct. So I think the we enter into a conflictual conversation based on the things that we just talked about, right, like the misunderstanding, based where are we at in our own mood level. And prior to even getting to talking about the conflict resolution, one of the easiest ways to make sure we're understanding one another is to reflect back and it's super simple, at its core, and it can be feel really silly, sometimes it's something they teach in all grad schools for psychology therapy, there's reflective listening so you say I want to eat an orange today and then you would respond back I hear that you want an eat an orange today, you're starting very simple to then bring it into when you're communicating with really complex thoughts and feelings. The person that is the receiver can respond by so this is what I hear you say is Am I hearing you correctly? And you can do it written you know, you can do reflective, you know, written response. You can also do it verbally. It's hard to do on a car constant basis. But when you start to feel yourself those like, you know, emotions rising, your heart is racing, you want to attack and respond. And I know I know that feeling right when you just want to prove your point. Okay, we they say, Okay, wait, let's take a minute, is this what your is? This is what I hear you say, is that correct? And that can prevent so much conflict, but it is hard to do consistently. Yeah, it really is.
Scott Benner 20:26
From your personal perspective, why is it difficult for you when it when it is?
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 20:30
Because you have to be checking in with your own, like your own body or regulation? Are you feeling dysregulated? When you're in a heated argument, whether it's with, you know, parent, child or partner to partner, and you're wanting to prove your point, you're tired, you're stressed, maybe you're hungry, maybe you have low or high blood sugar, you're just kind of done. Maybe it's a conversation you've had over and over again, whether it's about whatever it is, it's really hard to step back and say, Okay, this is what I hear you say, and then the person might say this, that's what I'm saying. And you still might disagree with that. So then once you clarify, okay, I'm understanding the message, then we move into, okay, how are we going to solve this problem or this conflict? But before doing that, you really want to get clear of like, what it is that we are having this? What are we arguing about?
Scott Benner 21:25
I, I will share something personal with you. So if I'm having a disagreement with my wife, I should say when it definitely happens when I'm having a disagreement, or she and I are disagreeing about something. If the situation is that I'm coming from, I'm saying something that she's misunderstanding, I don't care that She misunderstands me. But I literally get hurt if she if her misunderstanding highlights that she thinks I would do a thing I wouldn't do. I don't know how to put that in better words, but when she if she if what she's saying, makes me feel like she thinks poorly of me. I find it very upsetting. And then it becomes incredibly important for me to explain myself, because I don't want her to think I would do something like that. And then after that hurt part goes, I'm angry that after giving 30 years of my life to our union, she would think that off me. That's maybe one of the hardest things for me to deal with in a personal relationship. Now, if I'm being a bad person, I just go home and I put my head down. Right. But But if if I've just said something and you've misunderstood it. My first thought is what I said. The second part, though, is really the part that I don't know, it lights me up inside, like, I guess on a simple way, how could you think I would think that or do that? Right? It's up? Yeah. Don't you know me better than that, after all this time? It's hard on me.
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 22:56
She's probably maybe she's she came at it in that conversation. Maybe she's had a hard day and is not thinking clearly and slowly and is making these quick assumptions. But even though she knows who you are at your core, but this is really common to Riley because we're you know that your partner is honest, and hardworking. But maybe in a moment, you make a comment saying, Oh, you're lazy. And then the partner thinks no, but the one of my core values is that I work really hard. But maybe the partner who accused the other one of being lazy, is feeling tired themselves or is irritable because have they gotten to a traffic?
Scott Benner 23:37
Timeout think sometimes she's just trying to burn my ass and she picks the thing she knows is gonna get to me the worst. I think she's like, this argument is going nowhere. Let's just piss him off instead.
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 23:50
Well, you know, that happens in relationships, too.
Scott Benner 23:52
Yeah. And I don't think it's a conscious decision. I don't think someone sits there and thinks this has been going on too long. Why don't I make him crazy? When you get into a conflict? And you have to like, like you said, it's gonna be hard to stop. But I mean, we're talking about parenting specifically. I want to start by by helping by sharing something that a 22 year old just told me recently in an interview, that this guy was talking about how growing up whole timing he thinks he started smoking weed when he was a sophomore in high school. And his father wrote him about it and wrote him and wrote him and wrote them and then once he was a legal age, he realized his that smoked weed too. And they were now like, not doing it together specifically, but he's like, now it became clear and he said that the hypocrisy stuck with him. You could tell that's where he got caught. Like, how could you have been giving me so much trouble about something for so long about a thing? You do? So I don't care if we doesn't matter. It's not the conversation. It's hypocrisy. Kids smell that a mile away. And I think it's the damaging when you're hypocritical with your kids, but it's hard not to do.
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 25:06
It's, it is so, so challenging. Because if we're thinking about, yes, you're right, like we decide, could it be like cursing
Scott Benner 25:15
or something smaller?
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 25:18
something smaller. I mean, even like, let's say brushing your teeth, or I'm trying to think of like a behavior, but it also could be something that you communicate, and you're trying to raise your child up to have these, you know, good habits. And then they learn. I'm just kind of I'm practicing some reflective listening here to make sure I understand you to say, you know, the child realizes, wow, this whole time you were you were training and teaching and parenting me to not do this thing, I realized you're doing it. I think in those in that moment, it would be amazing if that child now you know, adult child could go back to the parent to have some conversations around that, like, Dad, what what was this? What is this about? But there is a lot of pain and violation of trust. In that space.
Scott Benner 26:06
I think the only way to stop that is you can't hide who you are, whether it's in a conversation, or if it's physically or like an action. And I get you like, I want to I'll use a bigger, more bombastic thing. Like if you know the trouble of heroin addiction, and you see your kid moving towards heroin, I get that you're going to be hypocritical, but there's a way to not be hypocritical. Still, you can still say, I see that you're going towards this thing. I've made that mistake. Here are the things that it's done to me, not just say don't do that. Or don't be like me like that. That's too simplistic you because that also children don't. When you point something out about your kids, that is a trait of yours, or a trait. Here's where I've seen it the worst. Let's say you got a couple of kids and one of your kids has some of the moms trade some of the kids has some of the dad's trades, you should never say to the other one, oh my God, you're just like your father. Because what are you saying? You're saying you don't like my dad, or at least this part of him? And you don't like me? That's, and that's not what you're that's not what you think. And that's just not what you're trying to communicate. But that is exactly what you're saying. So you have to everything has to be explained that things take more words than people want to use, I think is, is that a fair way of like, Yeah, you can't just blurt things out, you have to be complete. I feel this way. This thing worries me because I know I've done it already, too. And I'm hoping to help you avoid this issue. There. Now you're not a hypocrite.
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 27:48
Right? Yes, yes. I mean, we, the best parenting is through modeling what you want your child to emulate and replicate, right? Like we put on our seatbelt. And we model that for our children. And because we tell them to put their seatbelt on and we all want to be safe. And so applying that the modeling, it's okay, we are not perfect people. We are not perfect parents. And we might make choices that we know are not healthy for us on a daily basis, when it's developmentally appropriate to include your child into that conversation, I think is really a healthy mode of communication to say, Hey, I struggle with this. You know, I want to eat Red Vines all day, but we shouldn't because it's a no that's a random candy thing. I was gonna say chocolate because I love chocolate. Like we want it you know, it's okay to say to their child like, Hey, I struggle with this too. Whatever it is, and I'm I'm trying I'm trying to help correct this habit by this, this and this and let's do this together. I'm not
Scott Benner 28:52
saying I don't do it. I have listened in the funniest way I can tell you I've turned to my daughter a times and gone hey, look, I'm already married. If you want to break somebody's balls, go find your own guy. But I got a lady doing it for me already. I don't need you to. I can't take this from Twitter from France. But when but when my wife or either my wife or my daughter are being constructive and telling me something about myself, I don't feel that way. Right? Like it's it's okay then. But I'm sorry. I gotta loop back around. Conflict Management. Yes. I mean, we kind of aren't we're not at the same time. So you have to be aware like with anything, you know, the conflict can come at any time. And that's a thing. I think we all just know like, you're going along having the greatest day and all of a sudden you're in you're like how did we get here? What is happening? I just tried to go fishing to get a glass of water. Like you know, so you do need to be aware it could happen anytime. The list I'm looking at is from Canada, Canadians are lovely. So this must be right. Proactive. They're saying here like Big Think about preventing problem. ones not just how to resolve them, like, how do you avoid them to begin with. And then a lot of stuff we've talked about already, you know, try to understand all sides of the situation. initiate dialogue. This one I found very helpful when I was looking at know when to ask for help. And I tried to do that, if I get lost in a conversation, you when you start arguing in circles, you almost don't remember what it is you're talking about anymore. Like out there, I'll stop. And I go, I'm sorry. I don't I know this sounds wrong. I don't even know what we're talking about anymore. Like you get, like, please just give me a thing to answer right now. Because I feel like I'm, I feel like I'm being shot out from 10 sides, and I'm just babbling trying to come up with something that's gonna make you happy. And I don't want to just make you happy. I'd like to actually, you know, assess what our options are here and do something about it.
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 30:52
Yes, I think that's kind of on a, a broader scale to kind of when you're in that looping, and that happens. You're just you're arguing and then you're going on to the next point about whatever household duty and you're just kind of snowballing into this big fight to say, hey, let's take a step back. What are what was, why did we start this, what or I felt this way about something and you felt this way, like kind of going back to the starting like a reset in the reflective listening? I think in that space of timing. Maybe you guys have got it's you've there's been conflict for so long, whether it's been that day or weeks or months to say we need to either we need help, or we need to reset, but then when you're having when you're having the conversation, when you are feeling either wronged or your partner's feeling wronged or your child, it's so helpful to set up the right time to say okay, are you in a good spot to talk about this issue that we've been that we've been arguing about? And this This works for with your children, five year olds, you know it because we as parents, oftentimes we think, hey, there's a problem, we need to fix it. I know I am in that mentality often. And to remember, our children, our partners, ourselves, we all need to have a fair chance to engage in it in a really healthy conversation. So to check in on the timing,
Scott Benner 32:15
took me a long time to figure it out. I know, I've shared this with you in the past, but because I came from a divorced family. When there's conflict, I used to feel very pressured to resolve it immediately. Yes, and that's normally not okay. Sometimes people just need a little space before you can come back together. It's a it's a great, great thought. So how do people when kids are what they are like, right? Like I don't know, if you all are have younger kids are older kids, you there's a moment they get to a certain age, they just disappear. They're like in their rooms, they become more private and like that, and that lasts for a number of years. But with all the different reasons why it's hard for an adult to talk to a child. What are some ways to make sure that that those lines stay open? Because that,
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 33:05
yes. So having an established I know this is particularly challenging, right? As they do become as children become teens, they want their independence, autonomy space, but to maintain the open lines of communication. We that's they want it to, right, I think there's oftentimes as parents, we can assume that the oh, they just they don't want to talk to us. They're going to just, you know, fight back or but I think what I hear a lot from teens is they still want, you know, with an appropriate level of checking in or a validation is a wow, I see you, you know, I'm thinking specifically around the diabetes P cycle. I see. Wow, this looks like a must have been a really hard day. How are you feeling? Whether you're looking at your blood sugars or not just how looks like it was a really great day, how are you feeling? Or just having those moments? I think they also can be they can be brief, as to maintain that open line of communication. They don't have to be as long. But this having a small checkpoints having routines, if they are open to it establishing when is your when are you going to have those check in conversations? Is it via text? Is it at dinner? Is it nighttime? Is it in the morning is you know, whatever it is. But I think asking engaging your child and inviting them into the conversation of like, hey, what do you want our relationship to look like? Without assuming they want it one way or the other or you're putting your assumptions on them?
Scott Benner 34:43
It also conveys a lot with those actions doesn't have to be these long conversations just asking somebody and my son was not feeling well the other day and a couple hours after he told me that I sent him a note. I said, I'm just checking on you, that's all and he said I'm doing It was like, Okay, I don't know if he's really doing good or not. But the point is, is that he knew that he didn't feel well. He shared that with me. I remembered it. And it meant enough to me to ask him about it later. I think that's the important part. Like people could get stuck on the, the important part is that he feels better Mike. Yeah, okay. He's 23 he's gonna feel better. He's gonna go to the hospital like I like I'm not in control of that, right. But the rest of it. I am in control with like, you're doing great. Or at the end of the day, last night, Arden has been commuting to back to college and she's got a broken up into a couple days, she drove 300 Miles yesterday. It's the first time she's ever gone that far on her own. At the end of the night, I just said, Hey, you did great. And and while your blood sugar's were terrific. I don't know what you did. But that was great. Now, here's the thing. Maybe she didn't do anything. Right? Like, hey, algorithms just running and it just worked great. And she might be like, Oh, I never looked at that, you know, like, but she still gets the leave that that momentary interaction with, Hey, I've done a thing. I accomplished it. And I it sounds like I did a good job. Cool. Roll on, you know what I mean. And those are the little things that ended up in. My son had an issue a couple of weeks ago. And he, he called us he was having a conflict of his own a personal conflict of his own. And he called us to tell us about it. And like, we talked about it for a little bit. We listened to him, we offered some thoughts, you know, didn't push him off of the way he felt. I'm like, just like, here's our perspective of this. And we got off the phone. And I said to my wife, how great is that? And she goes, what? Like he's having a problem with it. I'm like, no, no, like, how great is he called us? Like is that that's the great part. Like the rest of it's all bullshit. Like like that. That's what happened, right? He'll have a conflict, it'll come back, it'll fix whatever, who cares? We're not going to fix it for him. He thought to call us I was like, you're not paying attention.
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 36:53
That's a win. Yeah, we won. Yeah. Well, it's a win. It's a win in your relationship, right, that do have that established trust, and, and safety. Like he felt safe and reaching out to you guys. So that's,
Scott Benner 37:07
and that's my point about when I hear about keeping lines of communication open, I think people hear those things, and think you're going to rattle off these 10 bullet points. And if they just do these things, then they are going to have open lines of communication. I don't think it's that at all, I think it's about creating, somebody just used this phrase with me, damnit, I'm gonna forget it a psychologically safe space, or something like that, like a place where when your brain says, I need help, it goes to you. And that's the communication. They don't have to be words, you could sit and put your arm around somebody that's still communicating, anyway, okay.
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 37:46
Yes, yes, it's about the relationship. And we, it's hard to maintain that given all of the factors of life, but creating that space of trust, and dependency in a in a really healthy developmentally appropriate way. It takes time and effort. And it's hard to do all the time.
Scott Benner 38:07
So the next thing here on our list that I think is really important that is apologizing, like as a parent, especially, I mean, but in general, but it's for me, when I learned how to apologize to my kids, or to somebody else. To me, it's about like ego, it's about letting go of like that. Whatever the hell that is. That doesn't want you to be wrong, you know. So, I mean, my wife forced me to do it. She's like, you have to go apologize to her now. Oh, my God dammit. Okay. And like, and like in your head. I used to say, like, but no, I did the right thing. Like, you know, this was important. We can't care that she doesn't like it. And my wife's like, No, we can't care that she doesn't like it. But we don't have to fight with her about it. Like, and this went the wrong way. You have to go apologize to her. So I learned how to do that. It's very uncomfortable.
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 39:03
It is uncomfortable. And it's also a piece of repair, right? You're repairing the relationship. And maybe you did. Whether it's you set or did something that made the child feel uncomfortable, or you truly did make, you know, if you made a mistake in how you communicated it. Not only are you repairing the relationship by apologizing, you're again going back to the modeling piece of like, Hey, I'm not perfect. And I'm in a model to my child, that it's okay to go ask, you know, to say I'm sorry, or ask for forgiveness. Like what a beautiful gift you can give your child in that in that space. It's a kind of really addressing to really key issues in that space. Like that's, that's great.
Scott Benner 39:50
It's so hard in the beginning, especially if you don't feel like you did anything wrong. And it's so then that means you can't you haven't step back far enough to reflect on the situation. See what you've done. So now you have to see that sometimes you're seeing it while you're saying it. And you're apologizing. Every it's just I didn't grow up that way, like, the way I grew up was I told you to do it, do it. That's that. And, and there is part of you that goes, well, I'm alive. And I'm successful. And I'm like, maybe that works. Like, maybe I'm supposed to not care. And I want to point out, I don't think you should be sitting around apologizing to your kids constantly. Like, you know, oh, I bumped into you in the kitchen. I'm so sorry. You know, like, that kind of stuff. I just mean, when you do something wrong, when you're hurt someone's feelings, or a thing didn't go the way you meant for it to. Or even sometimes when something's happening to them, that's got nothing to do with you. You can go in and say I, I am so sorry, this is happening to you. But you know, and go from there. You know, I'm not in control this but still and here are the things I am in control of that I did wrong. I shouldn't have done those things. I'm going to try better next time. I might not get it right. Next time. Please. Call me out. And again, if I do it again. Eventually, that gets easy. It's just did the first couple times you feel like an idiot like I sorted. Yeah. So your ego, right, that makes you feel that way? Yes.
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 41:15
Ego and, and maybe flirting with that the mentality of you know, as you were sharing growing up in, you grew up in a very probably authoritarian type of parenting style, because I said so. Right? Because I said, so. And that's in that a No means no, and all those things. And I think one of the most common opportunities where we can exercise, you know, asking for, you know, saying I'm sorry, is when we start to yell, because that, you know, the kid starts to yell, your teen starts to yell, and then you get heightens. And so you yell back as the parent, and then you're both yelling, and then you find yourself yelling with your eight year old and like, what are what is happening?
Scott Benner 41:57
You don't know what life's all about that you've told that nine year old to go themselves?
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 42:07
Yeah, that's, yeah, you need to go put yourself in a timeout, for sure. And I mean, I've been parents do that. And I think that's a great you know, if you do find like your kid, you are just beyond your, your at max capacity in terms of all you can handle and you're yelling at, you can't say you know what, Mommy needs to go get yourself in a timeout and like, do your breathing and do your what all the things you need to do. And then you go back and say, You know what, you still can't go to this thing, or whatever you was, you're arguing about like you still, I still believe that you can't do this thing or have this thing. But I'm sorry that I yelled. Like the delivery.
Scott Benner 42:47
I think the Go finding space for yourself is important. Because you know, your kids don't know that you're really just 10 years removed from being like, I don't know, a girl in a parking lot of a Burger King making out with boys and smoking weed. And now all of a sudden, they're looking at it, you're looking for answers. And you're like, I am barely on top of this. Yes, you sometimes you want to look at your kids and be like, You have no idea how amazed I am this house is warm. Okay. Thanks. So you're asking a lot here. But we don't have time. Like you don't have time, every day that you don't communicate well, with a child. It's not a day loss. It's much more than that loss, you don't realize it while it's happening. That's why That's why that joke is like, oh, they'll talk about it in therapy. Like, you know, I'm just gonna keep messing up day after day. But you don't have to keep messing up day after day. Like you could mitigate a little bit. You're not going to be perfect. But again, mitigation would be nice. Like, what if we cleaved off 30% of your stupidity? That's an embarrassing, like, you know, and, and you know, that that sort of stuff is, you know, joking aside, but pulling that thought together. I do think that's sort of what happens sometimes is that people really aren't, it's the best, not kept secret of people who are older. Like, I'm not that much smarter than I was 30 years ago. I really, you know, I the only thing grounding me is the responsibility I feel for my loved ones. Like if those kids and that lady downstairs didn't exist, I'd better show like, like, I just end if I had like an income. Oh my god, what a disaster I'd be. Right. Right. So and so that's still like, I didn't go to some class to be an adult. You know what I mean? Like, I'm just doing the best I can. I think sometimes people can't quell that side of themselves. So when they're dealing with their kids, they just like turn a key and shut it off and turn into like, whatever version they think a parent supposed to look like. And that is that can be a mistake. i That's my opinion, but you know, there's a way to be you and parent like you guys know me pretty well. I'm a moron. But my kids are pretty well adjusted, like gang so you know, like I found a way to be myself and at the same time, in appropriate situations, do the things that the person in charge is supposed to be doing without hopefully making them, you know, never want to talk to me again. But so far so good.
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 45:08
Yes, yes, it's hard to do that, as you're talking about, like, you know yourself, you are, you are so much more than a parent. But that's, that is a big role, right. And layering on top of that, again, the game about the diabetes management, I know one of the common topics that we're hearing a lot of parents talk about is the mental load of life of their, their work, household duties. And then, and then we're thinking we're already at max capacity. And then we now have to deal with our child's pump change or site change, or we have to deal with this argument with our partner. So just recognizing how much you're carrying as an in all your other parts of life, really, is like the first step in increasing that awareness of how am I parenting? Like, how are you managing and holding yourself as you're, you know, a, as an employee, or as a good friend, or as a partner, and you're in your parent, it's that you're all these different parts. And having that awareness of how much one is influencing the other, it's really hard. It's hard work and to practice that empathy and grounding and slowing everything down. It's a it's a process.
Scott Benner 46:27
Hey, guys, just jumping in to remind you that one of our sponsors, BetterHelp is offering 10% off your first month of therapy, when you use my link, better help.com forward slash juicebox. That's better. H e l p.com. Forward slash juicebox. Better help is the world's largest therapy service. It is 100% online boasts over 25,000 licensed and experienced therapists, and you can talk to them however you want text chat phone or on video, you can actually message your therapist at any time and schedule live sessions when it's convenient for you. Better help.com forward slash juicebox save 10% On your first month. So from a practical standpoint, I find that turning diabetes tasks into breathing is that is a mistake. What I mean by that before that gets convoluted, you don't think about breathing, it just happens. And there are things that are going to happen around diabetes all the time, I tried to turn them into breathing, they're just things that happen. I don't have to be 100% engaged in them. And that's me 17 years into this I'm on day one, you're going to be fairly focused on trying to figure out a Bolus for something. But as time goes on, and you become better at it, to try to put it into the I don't know, just kind of mix it into the background a little bit, it's just the thing that happens. I've said before, like you don't approach a door and think I'm going to reach my hand up now grab that knob and turn it, you just your hand goes up, you open the door and you're through the other side, there's a moment when you'll be able to get diabetes to that spot. That's very helpful. Because I think what happens is like those pump changes come out like and now there's, you know, I have one right in front of me like, no, like a vial of insulin in front of you, right. And now it's this medical thing, and it's on the table and it's next to this device. And then your brain starts going, oh my god, I can't believe this, she's got to stick that on her leg. And this isn't fair. And before you know it, we spiral right away into how horrible all this is. I just don't, I don't give these things that agency over me. I just I deal with them like they're breathing or open a door. And then they're gone. And that's it, I don't keep them in my mind. And I don't dwell on them while I'm doing them. And I think that can be helpful to avoid that. Because there is mental load, like right, there's a lot going on. And me if you just stop and think about it, if you're in a family of four, you have a relationship with your spouse, your parents, the people you work with, you don't think about it, you walk outside to get the trash you got this dance you do with your neighbor, when you see them, like you know, they mean like you're you ever you have a relationship with One child, another child, you might be responsible for the kitty litter. And then on top of all that who's keeping this place safe and warm and dry, and who's buying shirts and, you know, I want to have sex and like, you know, I'm hungry. And I'd love to play Playstation by myself for an hour or one more time Malay like or, you know, I'd like to go shopping and nobody bother me or, you know, what's the thing you hear people all the time, like, I haven't taken a shot by myself in 10 years, like like, you know, like, like that kind of thing like it all that's happening at once and then somebody comes in and puts his vial of insulin in front of you goes, hey, don't forget that your youngest kid has diabetes. Like think about that too. There's got to be a way where you don't think about all those things and focus on the interpersonal stuff. Because I think when the interpersonal stuff gets good, all of it gets good That's my assumption, or better
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 50:03
to two thoughts. I think there's, there's the journey, right of thinking about the diabetes, as you mentioned, you know, you're 17 years in. And there might be a moment, you know, in five years where something happens with Arden that might trigger, you know, I'm not putting that out there is like, there are moments like maybe there's, you know, I've had it for 33 years, maybe there's going to be a complication that that arises that you'd were not anticipating and you'd worked really hard to prevent, that is going to be triggering, and you're going to experience grieving around this chronic illness. I think there are moments where you can get into that routine where it does become mindless, and just part of breathing. And then it's also okay to have moments where you're just like, yeah, Damn this really, this really, is that car.
Scott Benner 50:54
Yeah, yeah, it certainly can sneak back. Listen, I have a complication and getting old, I just have surgery on my foot. Right? And I was sitting there thinking like, Oh, God, like, I'm so old, my toe stopped working, like what the hell? You know, and that brings in thoughts about how much life you have left. And it's not it's a month 52 thing. And people like that so young, is it? Not? If I'm dying, when I'm 70? Because that sounds like I'm almost done. And you know, and I just started to figure things out, you know, like, so any little thing can kind of push, there's nothing wrong with feeling it. And there's nothing wrong with thinking about it. There's something wrong with holding on to it. That's just gonna waste your time, I think.
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 51:36
Yes, I think there's there's a process. And I think holding both of the thoughts that, wow, diabetes is not going to get in the way of my child's development, or if it's, you know, my own. And it's a really serious chronic illness, that takes a lot of work. And so I think we're always constantly as caregivers, or people with with type of diabetes, you're always holding that, right. And some days, the bout the skills going to tip where you're like, I got this, and it's not going to stop me. And then some days, that scale might tip the other way. Really, this is really hard. And I wish I didn't have to deal with this right in this moment. Because I want to go run off and do this other thing.
Scott Benner 52:16
It's Listen, there's no doubt it's difficult. It's always going to come up at the worst time. But I think that's, again, acceptance is just such a big part of it. Because yes, you know, it. I hear people say all the time, like why, why do I always need to change my pump or my this or that at the worst time, and I always say, What would have better time have been, there's no good time for this app. And this isn't the thing that you need. Like, again, you know, diabetes, I've heard it, I've explained it as sometimes it feels like you have to remember to breathe. Like it's almost like you have to sit there and tell yourself, breathe in, breathe out, breathe in breathe, because if you don't do that your health slips away. And eventually, like I said, it gets to the point where you understand that enough where that kind of fades into the background. But when it like you're saying comes back and slaps you in the face, all the sudden it's there again, I was about to go for a walk. I was about to go to bed. I mean, that's the worst it literally your whole life, your whole day and you're exhausted and the only thing you want to do is go to sleep and you lay down and you or your child's blood sugar starts to thaw. You're like or the other day, Erica, I swear to you, I walked through my my downstairs, and I was trying to get into the kitchen to get a drink. And it felt like within six seconds. The UPS guy rang the doorbell Arden's high blood sugar alarm went off. My dog started barking, and I dropped something. And it it literally felt like it all happened at the same time. And I was like, What the hell? Like, oh my God, but but here's the difference. I treat life like an action movie that's trying to kill me. I just watch the things that by my head, I go, Oh my god, that was amazing. And then I keep going. Because I don't have time to sit around and talk. I've done a lot of cool things in my life. I can't tell you what any of them are. I used I have friends who are like you remember the time that you went to a private airport at two o'clock in the morning and flew from Philadelphia to Albany, New York with stuttering John from the Howard Stern Show on a private plane. And I go yes. Oh my god, I do remember that. But I never would have thought to bring it up cuz I don't remember. And like, like, and to me, that's it. Like, I have memories. And they fill me up. But I don't live in the past. Like I'm always moving forward. And I mean, it's been working for sharks for millions of years. I think people should try it once in a while. That's all swim forward, eat a fish. Keep going take a crap in other fish. And sleep. Yeah, don't start thinking about the Khajiit last Thursday. It's upsetting. Keep going Do you have a note here? I don't want to ignore that you put in the notes. I know you want to talk about it last week, and we thought it fit in here too. But let's kind of bundle together cultural backgrounds and the differences that those can bring up.
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 55:13
Yes, I think, you know, obviously, we are two people playing White, or white, or white. And oftentimes, I know it can be easier to speak from what feels like normal in your upbringing, we are trying really hard to expose, you know, all the different styles. And I do think it's important to note that there might be different expectations and of how when parents based on your cultural or ethnic background, and I think it's important for us to just acknowledge that we're not trying to say, you know, if that if that is your custom, and that is your culture, of how that the parent is the authority figure. And that's the way it goes in your culture in your background. And that works for you, then I think that's healthy and appropriate. But I think what we are trying to do, though, is shed light on other ways that you know, just where can we improve? How can we grow, while also being kind and gracious to ourselves?
Scott Benner 56:11
Well, I don't disagree with you. And at the same time, I'll add that I've gotten to watch two generations of Indian families, show up in America and raise a generation of children. And if you think you're going to bring culture to America, and then integrate your children with all of us, white people. And you think that it's not going to be easy to hold on to, I've watched people give up on some pretty hard held ideas pretty quickly, because you start I mean, you introduced that freedom. And I don't mean like American freedom. I mean, just like, you know, like the way things work here. And you start giving people like, you can't do this, because of that. And this and people go, I don't know, I'm looking around that didn't happen and other people, and I'm not inclined to listen to you, and I have a phone does, you know, like a Google everything, you know, did you know, like, we brought it up before, right? You can pick up your phone, and you have access to more information than the President had in 1960, or something like that, or 1980, or something like that. So you can't, it's harder and harder to hoodwink people into doing what you want them to do, whether it's for religious reasons, or cultural reasons, or whatever, because they're, once they can see it, then you know, they're only going to do it if they want to, or you're gonna have to force them. And I mean, that's on you. If you want to do that. That's fine with me. I don't care, honestly. But, you know, I'm not again, I'm not telling you about either wrong. I'm just saying if that's your goal, it's not as easy as you think. So, good luck. We've been dealing with this since the 50s. Since like, fast cars and Coca Cola. Like that's about how long it's been happening here. Right. So I mean, in the 40s people listened. And in the 50s, it started, but they blame Elvis, right?
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 58:02
Yes. Yeah. The disrespect. Yeah.
Scott Benner 58:06
Are you telling me Pornhub? Is Elvis this fault? It could be a genealogist. But I mean, maybe. But no, I mean, it's just it's hard. Like, and I think that for everybody listening it, forget your cultural background, like, that's the situation you live in now that you're raising children in a in a time when they, they can fact check you in three seconds. So it's not even worth lying to them. Because they'll find out or they'll go ask somebody else. And it's not just about like, what is kissing? Or, like, now it's everything. They literally know everything. Some of the stuff my daughter laughs at I'm like, What the hell? Oh, why does she know about that? And, um, it's just the other way ahead of us. And it's gonna be I want to stay alive long enough to see where it gets them. Because in the beginning, they look overloaded, like, right, isn't that the that's what we've been saying for like the last five or six years, like, oh, kids are overloaded, they're getting more information than they need. Yes, but it's gonna come out in the wash, and like, and you're gonna see, you're gonna see people in their 30s and 40s and 50s, I think that are well ahead of where you and I were in our 30s and 40s and 50s. And then their kids are not going to be anxiety ridden the way they were because we're going to have another generation of this. Yeah,
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 59:27
well, we'll have to replay this and the next 20 to 30 years and see and do some fact checking.
Scott Benner 59:33
I'm going to be absolutely dead by then. So good luck to all of you if you're hearing this in a time capsule if I was right, find my grave and come pull one out for me and if I was wrong, just cut me a break. I was just making a podcast okay. I really appreciate you doing this. We've talked before Episode three we're going to record next is going to be about self care personal growth for parents. Episode Four creating boundaries and expectations Episode Five is going to be avoided unintended consequences, and six will be co parenting and united front. And I think then Episode Seven recognizing patterns and breaking cycles. It's about as far as we've like, gotten to what we know for sure is going to be in this but we have a couple other ideas. And we appreciate you listening. So thank you and Erica can help people in person in California and online in California, Oregon,
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:00:25
Utah, Utah, Florida, Florida,
Scott Benner 1:00:28
Florida get mixed in there. They're very far from each other. I'm holding up.
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:00:33
Well, you know, they have I have some clients there from a long, long time ago or during the pandemic and Florida opened up a really nice telehealth policy. And actually, I'm currently also active for the next few months in Vermont, and I'll see if that if that goes past 2023.
Scott Benner 1:00:51
When it gets cold, the maple syrup freezes up and they take it away.
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:00:56
I their telehealth policy might be extended. So I'm there currently.
Scott Benner 1:01:03
Do you think our states will do it? Or do you think that COVID God is many to do it as are going to?
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:01:08
I think their states are currently really reevaluating what their telehealth policy is with, you know, COVID officially ending and some of those policies were closed. But then people I think really appreciate them and particularly states who don't have as much have many, you know, therapists because the numbers that they need, they need the actual numbers of therapists psychotherapists, all that. Yeah.
Scott Benner 1:01:32
That's cool. Erica foresights.com.
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:01:34
Thank you.
Scott Benner 1:01:35
Thank you very much.
Thanks so much for Hey, thanks so much for listening to the parenting series with me and Erica Erica Forsythe doc.com If you'd like to find her she's obviously terrific and specializes in helping people with type one diabetes. I'd also like to thank that contour next gen blood glucose meter for sponsoring this episode of The Juicebox Podcast and for sponsoring the remastering of the diabetes Pro Tip series. Don't forget what I said earlier in the show, go check out that Pro Tip series for that special offer link. Thank you so much for listening. I'll be back very soon with another episode of The Juicebox Podcast and if you miss me in the meantime, head over to the private Facebook group and say hello. I'm always there.
A huge thank you to one of today's sponsors better help, you can get 10% off your first month of therapy with my link better help.com forward slash juicebox that's better H e lp.com. Forward slash juice box. If you've been thinking about speaking with someone, this is a great way to do it on your terms betterhelp.com forward slash juice box when you support the Juicebox Podcast by clicking on the advertisers links, you are helping to keep the show free and plentiful. I am certainly not asking you to buy something that you don't want. But if you're going to buy something, or use the device from one of the advertisers, getting your purchases set up through my links is incredibly helpful. So if you have the desire or the need, please consider using Juicebox Podcast links to make your purchases
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