Scott Benner 10/6/23 Scott Benner 10/6/23

#1035 Comparison and Blame

Erika and Scott enjoy a thought excercise about blame and comparison and then the conversation grows from there.

Erika is a licensed marriage and family therapist who herself has had Type 1 diabetes for over 30 years and who specializes in working with people with diabetes and their families and caregivers—from those newly diagnosed to those experiencing it for decades.

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DISCLAIMER: This text is the output of AI based transcribing from an audio recording. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors and should not be treated as an authoritative record. Nothing that you read here constitutes advice medical or otherwise. Always consult with a healthcare professional before making changes to a healthcare plan.

Scott Benner 0:00
Hello friends, and welcome to episode 1035 of the Juicebox Podcast.

I found myself wondering recently why it's such a human thing to compare stuff compare things we have or things we want or why we compare people. And why do we have to blame things? Like Why Does something have to be at fault? These are kind of two disconnected but in my mind connected ideas, I wanted to talk more about them. So I brought Erica Forsythe in to have that conversation. If you get done and you're like, oh, Erica is delightful. I'm gonna look into her services, you can check her out at Erica forsythe.com. While you're listening today, please remember that nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise, always consult a physician before making any changes to your health care plan, or becoming bold with insulin. If you're looking for support with your diabetes, check out the Juicebox Podcast private Facebook group Juicebox Podcast type one diabetes. If you'd like to get 40% off of all your cozy items, go to cozy earth.com and use the offer code juice box at checkout. And you will in fact save 40% off of your entire order.

The podcast is sponsored today by better help better help is the world's largest therapy service and is 100% online. With better help, you can tap into a network of over 25,000 licensed and experienced therapists who can help you with a wide range of issues. Better help.com forward slash juicebox. To get started, you just answer a few questions about your needs and preferences in therapy. That way BetterHelp can match you with the right therapist from their network. And when you use my link, you'll save 10% On your first month of therapy. You can message your therapist at any time and schedule live sessions when it's convenient for you. Talk to them however you feel comfortable text chat phone or video call. If your therapist isn't the right fit, for any reason at all. You can switch to a new therapist at no additional charge. And the best part for me is that with better help you get the same professionalism and quality you expect from in office therapy. But with a therapist who is custom picked for you, and you're gonna get more scheduling flexibility, and a more affordable price. Better help.com forward slash juicebox that's better help h e l p.com. Forward slash juicebox. Erica, how are you?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 2:49
I'm doing well. Thanks. How are you? Friday? Friday? Yes,

Scott Benner 2:54
I just recorded with Jenny an hour ago. And I told her I'm going to get my toe look that and I'm going to be able to take a shower without a big plastic bag on my foot. So I'm super excited.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 3:05
Yes, oh my goodness, I don't even know. I had

Scott Benner 3:08
a toe surgery. And I so I have I'm wearing this giant. I mean, it's a foot condom. I don't know another way to put it. But it I have to wear it every time I get in the shower. And for the last three days. I'm like this thing is healed. I definitely don't need to keep this off of water. But I told the guy would till Friday, so I kept doing it. But anyway, tomorrow's shower is going to be include my fulfill.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 3:31
So good. Yes. So

Scott Benner 3:33
the people won't know. But we were supposed to start recording a series today. But instead of doing that I kind of jammed in another idea first to get to get ahead of it. I am fascinated and want to know more about why people compare things, and why they need to place blame on things. And I I've been watching it for so long now. Running that Facebook group gives me a really good insight into like, people and how they react to things. And I just want to talk about it. So I don't know a lot about it at all. I just know what I see. But I'd love for you to explain it a little bit to me, please.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 4:16
Sure. So I think it's interesting that you said why do people compare things and blame things? And I would maybe insert that why do people compare themselves or ourselves with one another or blame ourselves? But maybe I want to clarify are you thinking about it in that perspective? Or? Yeah, maybe in general, so

Scott Benner 4:37
I think yes. What do I want to say? Okay, so I guess like some like let's start with a couple of examples. Why do I see so many conversations that want to say that type one diabetes is worse than having type Have two diabetes. There's, there's a clear example of that. It feels like at times, there's a need to make sure people understand that I have the worst kind of diabetes. Why is that?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 5:18
So I would say first and foremost, that might be how you were informed, or educated when you were diagnosed. I think, personally, 33 years ago, when I was diagnosed, I remember that language that like the type one was the harder diagnosis to have, and more life threatening. And consequently, that is a harder one to manage. I think now, I know we've we've talked about this before. Why do we do that? Now when we know that both are challenging? No one is really quote, to blame. But I think we use you know, thinking about the comparison, the social comparison, there's actually a theory that we we do this, humans do this naturally. Sometimes to make ourselves feel better. Sometimes we do it without even knowing it. And we make ourselves feel worse. But it's kind of like a it's a natural human phenomenon that we are comparing ourselves to others. And it can be a positive, right? We can do that positively and make ourselves want to get better, feel better, do better, or we can do it and make ourselves feel worse. But I think the example about the type one versus type two, I have the harder one. And in fact, just recently I was talking with somebody is not not in my practice with a call a friend. And I shared with her I had type one. And she said, Oh, I have type two. I know it's not as bad. She She offered that up to me. I say Oh, no. Like they're they're both challenging and really hard to live with. Yeah. I know. It's interesting

Scott Benner 7:07
that in that, see, that fascinates me, like, what is the need, right then in there? To let cuz she What is she doing? She's telling you? I'm not saying I have it as bad as you do. Right? Like she Yes. And yes. So that was meant kindly. Like, I know, you have a thing that's worse than me. I'm not going to challenge you about it. But But I don't understand why the brain goes to that right away. So I understand comparing for like, listen, I did it earlier today. Earlier today, I pulled up the top 20 list of podcasts in the medicine category. And I was sitting in 13th. Me a guy who makes a podcast completely by himself. And I'm looking at 13, like corporations ahead of me, like big name people with like staffs and money and like, you know, that kind of thing. And I should look at that and think, wow, look at that. I'm hanging, you know what I mean? And I do, but then the next thought is, how do I get there? How do I move up? But I'm not torturing myself about it. I actually think the podcast is good enough that it could reach enough people that we could like, float up in that top five and six. Right. So that's a comparison that I use to motivate myself. Yes, right. Yes. Right. I'm not trying to make myself feel badly. I did not feel badly when it was over. I'm absolutely happy to be 13. It's amazing. You know what I mean? So I get that I get, I get even being trying to get on a sports team and picking the person who's starting, and you're not starting and saying what is that person doing that I'm not doing? I think that's all very healthy, to be perfectly honest. And I think that part of the reason the podcast works for people is because I've chosen to, I've chosen to say, this is how we do it. Here's the success we have, I think you could do that too. Right? It's not, I'm not thumbing my nose at people and going ha ha ha my kids, they wouldn't see as this like, right. But but there, but there are people that do that. So I get that, I guess, like I understand. But But what do I mean here? It's different mindsets that read it differently, right? So if I can do that thing and say, Hey, listen, here's here's the way it works for us. I hope you can do it too. And there are plenty of people who come along and go I love that. I love that it's helpful. I love that it's giving example I'm going to strive for that. But there are also people who come and see that and go Why are you rubbing it in my face? Like that's their first their first thought? Like, like they think I'm comparing myself to them when I'm not like so why does some people read it as hopeful and other people read it as like an fu

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 9:58
I think It's challenging to introduce big generalizations, but I think it goes back to maybe, what is your concept of just in life around your sense of blame versus taking responsibility? Are you expecting? Perfect perfection? Are you? And if you aren't perfect, where do you go? In your mind? Are you blaming yourself and shaming yourself? Are you saying, Oh, I, I messed up here, I can take some responsibility in that area. But I'm not perfect across the board. You know, understanding that we aren't, we aren't perfect, and we are human. And being kind and compassionate to yourself, I imagine maybe people who might look at in your example of look at how to, you know, manage your type one well, and feel like you're rubbing their being, you know, you're rubbing in their face. Are they then feeling like? They're, they're shameful and blaming themselves, if they can't do it, as opposed to oh, well, maybe I can I can learn and I'm not quite there yet. I'm never going to achieve perfection, but I'm gonna make mistakes. And I can I'm okay.

Scott Benner 11:11
So their life experience informs their response, whether they know it or not. So if you grew up with a parent who was always telling you, you're not good enough, for example, or you failed a lot in your life, something like that. And then you see somebody doing what you consider to be better than you. I'm making air quotes, again, then you look at that and say, Well, I can't do this, or I don't need to be told that I'm not doing well enough. That makes sense.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 11:37
Yes. So somewhere along the lines of this, you could have been, I mean, it is common, if you've been exposed to various forms of abuse or neglect as a child, or did not have the proper encouragement and affirmation, that you are good enough. Oftentimes, someone's mindset is, I'm not good enough. I'm never going to be good enough. And no matter how hard I tried, I try, I'm always going to feel this way. And so it's easier. That's painful, but it's an it's an automatic response, when you see someone doing better than you disable, they're just, they're just being they're flaunting it. And I'm never going to be able to achieve that I'm never good enough. So they're kind of maybe stuck a little bit in that blame, and shame mentality. It's, it's painful.

Scott Benner 12:32
Yeah. And that's really, to me, that's the sadness of it is that somebody could feel like, I don't know how to put this, your life, whatever your life is, is fantastic. If you let it be, and by let it be, I mean, if you accept that this is who I am, or what I am or where I am, or whatever. And that's terrific. If you think that's true, it is true. If you stop comparing yourself to things that are unattainable for you. Right? Like, it's, it's different for me to say I have a fairly popular podcast, and I think I could make it more popular. That's reasonable. But I couldn't look at Idris Elba and say to myself, I really need to look that handsome. And then I'm going to be okay, because I look the way I look. And this is all I have, like, right? I can't make a change to that. So that to me is that's terrible to think that there are people living what they think are unfulfilled lives, when really the only thing that needs to change? Is their definition of good or success or happy or like, right, like, if you is that the idea? Like you can be happy anywhere? If you're? I don't know, do you know what I mean? Like I'm not saying like if I lived on the side of a mountain in Nepal, and I didn't have a code that I could be happy I probably could not be. But like, you know, like, reasonably speaking. It's your own expectation that's crushing. Your ability to enjoy what you have is how it feels to me. I don't know if that's right or not.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 14:05
And well, the expectation, that mindset, which is, you know, developed over time and evolved over time through all of your, you know, your, your family of origin, your life experiences. And I think thinking about how kind are you to yourself, have you learned that skill set to say, Gosh, I really excelled in this area, and that's amazing, but I failed in this area, but you know what, that's part of human nature. And we all fail and we all suffer we all have pain and to not get stuck in that. That you know, the thought on repeat of. I'm never going to be good enough if that's a hard thing for people to do to just hold that thought of like cache failed and that oops, like, Yeah, that's probably it, I'm gonna be kind of myself and move on that that piece is really hard to have that awareness of the thought, and then move on,

Scott Benner 15:11
right? It's sort of the idea of that, um, I forget what the number is. But they say like, every person who's achieved a millionaire status has probably gone bankrupt a number of times, on their way to it like that, trying to give people the idea that like, you can't get to it right away the first time. And I do think that that's, um, there's a saying around this that I just heard again, recently, I'm not going to remember it, but that you what you don't see about an overnight success is the 10 years of work that somebody put into it, right. And so you see somebody pop up, out of nowhere, and you think, oh, I should be able to sing a song on Tik Tok, and blah, blah, blah, you know, this all should happen to me after that. But that's not the case. Like, that's not how it happened. You're seeing the one example of that of the person who actually made it all the way. And it you can't, you can't make that happen. It just, you can, you have to, like I don't know, like, in my mind, Erica, forget telling people what to do. I think life is short. And that you should try to be happy. You know, and I get why you can't, at times, but then if you're hitting one of those roadblocks, you should, in my opinion, you should focus on how to get around that roadblock. Instead of just running into it starting over running into it starting over over and over again, like think like, obviously, what I'm trying to do is being blocked by another part of my psyche. Like, I have to fix that thing, or understand it or whatever, so that I can keep moving on my journey and try to get to this place I'm trying to get because I think I don't know if I brought this up with you or not. But this is gonna sound like a bummer for a second. I don't mean, this is a bummer. The end of my mom's life taught me that a lot of being alive is setting goals, achieving goals, and resetting goals. And that once those carrots are gone off those sticks, it's kind of difficult to find a reason to get up in the morning, if that makes sense. Like Like, once it all feels gone. Like I'm not going anywhere. What am I doing? And I don't know if that's kind of like the worker bee mentality that's born into like living things or not. But you know, if you need something to do, and I don't know, and you can't always be focused. You can't just be focused out a mile. Some of it has to be now if think about now today, with a longer goal, I think, if that makes sense or not. I also don't know if there's a question there. So good luck talking now,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 17:50
I think will be the goal setting moving forward in life. That might be easier for some than others. For example, if you have a perfectionistic mindset, or that you feel like you are in control of things you could you could get stuck and not wanting to move forward or evolve or try new things. Because what if you fail? What if you don't get it right the first time, then where does the blame go? You goes right back on yourself, you're gonna say, Well, gosh, I see, look, I tried and I failed. I'm not going to try again. Because look what happens every time?

Scott Benner 18:31
Well, then use that comparison thing and compare yourself to somebody doing worse than you and you'll feel terrific. That's all.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 18:40
Well, you know, they say, you know that I think both as we said in the beginning, you know, comparing quote up versus comparing down, that there's maybe a little bit that can be healthy or helpful maybe is a better word, to a certain extent. But then it could also become a trap, right? Like we talked about the social media highlight reels if you're constantly trying to find self worth, by looking at your friends or friends of friends, social media reels, and saying, Well, I'm never going to be able to travel there or achieve that agency or get invited to these parties. You're going to feel you're constantly comparing up and that you're never good enough and you're never going to achieve or you could say gosh, look they're they're doing these things and maybe somehow I can change a little bit in my life and get there or comparing down. Which I know that gets controversial even saying that phrase of like comparing down to say like, wow, look at that person's thing or house or dress so I look way better

Scott Benner 19:46
the value there. But by the way, psychological cycle Psychology Today believes there's value in that the or can be valuable in comparing them to give yourself a boost. But I guess then the concern would be if I'm just going to try to paint I really hamfisted picture if I'm a homeless, drug addicted person, and then there's a homeless person who's not drug addicted. If I go, Oh, well, I might be homeless, but at least I'm not using heroin, that is not going to propel you out of your situation, it could make you feel falsely comfortable in a situation you don't really want to be in. Is that fair? That's fair.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 20:19
And I think to do it, every now and again, is fine. But again, going back to that, if that's your only source of finding, self worth or value by looking at other people's lives and saying, well, at least I'm not there. That that then maybe is an inauthentic place of of satisfaction, right? Yeah.

Scott Benner 20:45
So if it's a if it's a human instinct to compare ourselves, and you can get stuck in any number of these scenarios that we've painted, if you find yourself in that, how do you break free of it? Is there I mean, if I came in the office and said this to you like, what would you say to me?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 21:04
Well, it would it would be more than a one session quick fix? To be totally honest, I think it would, we would first start in just practicing the awareness of how often do you find yourself comparing? Is it? Is it all day long? Are you scrolling, thinking about what you don't have or what you have? And trying to gain that sense of self value or worth? So practicing the awareness around? How frequently are you doing that? And then, and then working through that? You know, I think a lot of people say, Well, if you just had higher self esteem, you know, there was a big push in the psychological world, that we just, we all need more self esteem. And then more recently, in the last, like, 10 years, it's been more about self compassion. And so we would look at that, are you if you're feeling like, you need more self esteem already in that space, you're judging yourself for not having self esteem, right? And saying, Gosh, I don't think I don't think well of myself. And you can get trapped in that. So we would then look at, you know, how, how are you offering kindness to yourself in areas where you excel in areas where you struggle, and oftentimes, that's where we spend a lot of time is looking at that self compassion piece?

Scott Benner 22:29
Am I off base by saying that it would be valuable to want what you have? Like, a? How do I mean this?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 22:38
I grew up having gratitude, you said is,

Scott Benner 22:41
I just I mean, I think what I mean is, like, not looking at something, and always thinking, Yeah, well, this is what I've achieved, but I want that thing. Like, if you want what you have, you can be happy with what you have, if you're always wanting something you don't have, then you're always going to be dissatisfied with yourself. And then I could see where the self esteem could spiral and and then by the way, I see what you're saying about the falsely propping people up with the like, you're terrific when you're not terrific, right? Like, right, like, why not just say hey, you're really good. Like, why? Why? Cuz I think you I don't see how that could work. Because if you tell me something about myself that I know is not true. I'm not going to believe it in my mind. To get made feel nice, like for a second. But, you know, if somebody walks up to me goes, oh my god, you're so tall. I'm gonna go thank you and then walk right and go, I am not tall, like like, right? But but if I wander around thinking I'm tall all the time. I think that's a disservice. Like, whereas I could just think this is how tall I am. That's great. Like, who cares? I don't need to be taller than this. I don't know if that makes sense.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 23:49
But what I feel like what that is kind of practicing mindfulness and acceptance of the truth and of the of whatever your thought is, you know, being comfortable with having uncomfortable feelings or not that you're saying you're uncomfortable about your height,

Scott Benner 24:10
but what I am I want to be taller. Like if you if you pin me down ugly Scott, were you out on your height? I'd say got more inches be terrific. Like, but it's not ruining my life. Do you know what I mean?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 24:25
Right? So you've accepted that okay, let's just this is like a physical trait. You've accepted your height fine, you're okay with that. And so thinking about like a feeling and emotion that maybe feels uncomfortable when you are able to hold that uncomfortable feeling. You are then in turn telling your mind your soul, your heart, your body, that you are okay, just exactly as you are. And it doesn't mean then you're gonna go stew and feeling sad or rejected because you didn't Get the job, or disappointed because your agency is lower, you're just able to say, Gosh, I am feeling really frustrated, maybe even depressed. And I'm going to just hold this I'm going to be comfortable being uncomfortable. And then and then that it's moving on. But the minute we say, oh, no, I can't I can't feel that way. I can't accept how tall I am. I can't accept that I was rejected, then we get stuck there.

Scott Benner 25:27
Are there some people that want themselves or their situation to be not just comfortable for themselves are happier, it's something they're happy with. They want it to be something that everyone would universally agree on. Like, you only mean like, which is a weird thing to me, because some of the prettiest people are not classically pretty. Do you know what I mean? Like and so why, like, why are you trying to look like a angular job blonde model from the 70s? If, first of all, that's not everybody's thought about why I think that's what you think is that where they say, like magazine covers need to be representative is oh, that I'm saying it now. Okay? Because otherwise, if we mark it over and over again, this is what pretty is, then that's the thing that I judge you guys, okay, I'm starting understand. But But what you don't know is what's in most people's heads. And I'm gonna make an incredibly weird comparison here for a second, it's gonna make you uncomfortable. It's making me uncomfortable to bring it up. But it makes the point it makes the point really, really well go to any porn site, okay? And there are dozens of genres that people love. And they're not at all what you would think of as classically, whatever. Like, do you know what I mean? Like, there's like, there's a person out there for you, no matter who you are. And I don't, I don't think people believe that. Like, I understand, like, but I understand why that would be difficult to believe. But that's just the truth. There's, I asked my wife sometimes, like, um, we did this game the other day, with a bunch of famous people. I can't believe I'm gonna tell you, we did this. So we pulled up a list of like, the what we googled most attractive, blah, blah, blah. And we went through it, we were like, I don't really see it with that person. Or yeah, that and what it shows you is, is that, like, my particular interest, doesn't lend itself to the fifth person on the most attractive list. Like when my wife went when my daughter said to me, who do you when you think of a famous person who's really pretty, who do you think of? And I was like, Kate Winslet. And my daughter grows, really? And I'm like, yeah, no, Kate Winslet and, and she's like, why am I I don't know, like, that's who pops into my head? Or, you know, some guys are looking for? I don't know, big butts. And some women are looking for really skinny dorky looking guys. And like, why are we so trying to look like Linda Evangelia Lisa, like, they don't mean like that. There's a name I just randomly picked out of my Yeah. I really just with that one out. But she's a person who in my mind, is classically beautiful, like, but I don't think she's particularly attractive. So like, Why are we always trying to be the thing? If we know that's not true? Because we have those feelings to, like, you know what I mean? Like, I'm walking around, knowing that I don't find classically beautiful women to be perfect. But yet, I want myself to be classically perfect. Because when they when Arden said like, Who do you want to look like, if you could look like anybody else? Like, Oh, George Clooney? Like, that's easy, right? And Arden goes, I don't think George Clooney is attractive. And I think that interesting. Yeah. And I think this game makes you should all play this game with yourself. I think it would teach you a lot in the past half an hour in the kitchen pretty nicely. So but, but I That's my confusion, like, Why do I know that I don't think Classic is classic. But yet, when I went when somebody asked me what I wanted to look like, I should have said me, and I should I said George Clooney. All right. I don't understand.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 29:17
So Well, I think also let's acknowledge your, your brain is developed, more so than you know the teenage brain. And so when when teenagers young children are exposed over and over and over again, you know, in our in our day, it was me magazine covers, but now on social media. They are exposed and that and by advertising, this is beauty. So even if and I hear what you're saying that you your sense, and how you define beauty is different than your daughter's or attractiveness or good looking Enos but yeah, We are trained to believe what what beauty should look like. And when you're younger, you're, that's, you absorb that. And so that's what leads oftentimes to destructive behaviors and destructive thinking. Because we're not, we don't look that way or own that thing or do that thing.

Scott Benner 30:19
So to move it away from looks, and why do I see so many people comparing how they eat to how other people eat. And I don't just mean in the diabetes space. I mean, this is if you want to start a fight in two seconds, it's catnip to say that the best way to eat is this, and then people will come in and compare and contrast and you don't understand about protein and you don't understand about fat and you don't understand about carbs, oh my God, and then I eat the best way. And none of the what you're doing is wrong. These are like this happens constantly. Like why would I? I almost cursed, I'm gonna curse. Why do I give how anybody else eats? Like, I don't understand. Why does that matter? Hey, guys, just jumping in to remind you that one of our sponsors better help is offering 10% off your first month of therapy, when you use my link, better help.com forward slash juice box. That's better. H e l p.com. Forward slash juice box. Better help is the world's largest therapy service. It is 100% online boasts over 25,000 licensed and experienced therapists. And you can talk to them however you want text chat phone or on video, you can actually message your therapist at any time and schedule live sessions when it's convenient for you. Better help.com forward slash juice box save 10% On your first month.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 31:44
The first thing that comes to mind is it's feel similar to religion, maybe and how people have belief systems, they have value system images, or maybe value systems. And you when you discover your truth, and whether it's your religion, or your value system or belief system, you want to share and quote proselytize to others. And so I wonder if it begins that way of like, wow, I discovered this way of eating, and I feel so good. And I've lost X amount of weight or I feel I have so much energy, and you want to share and maybe it's exciting. But then I know it quickly can evolve into criticism and, and really cruel type of commentary. Yeah, that I found the way and you haven't I'm not? Do you find that people get there go there first, or it becomes like, Oh, this is so exciting. Yeah.

Scott Benner 32:46
So I get to watch a lot of conversation. And they are all going to go the exact same way. There's, there's, I could, I could probably look at a post and take a magic marker and go, okay, this person brought up food today, because they just found a great way and they want to they share it with somebody, you can tell in their tone, the wording right away, say, a similar poster come up from somebody who like this person is here, because they got just a little crazy in their head. And they think it's their job to tell the whole world this thing. So those are the two different, like ways that can change points. The third entry point is when someone comes up and says, Hey, I have a question, what do you think I should do? So there's either the person who's like going to change the world, there's the person who's just excited to talk. And there's the person who doesn't know and is looking for input from people, no matter how they start. They're always going to end the same way. Now the one that starts with let me tell you, that is met with resistance more quickly. So but it's also met with more support. So the other let me tell you, people will come in and start going yay, Yeah, that guy knows he knows we're together solidarity. But then the people who feel like they don't want to be talked to like that, or B have a different idea. They're going to attack back based on the way the first person came into the story. That makes sense. Yes. And then that fight happens. Now the person who comes in and says, Hey, I've been doing this, and it's really been working for me. They're going to be met by somebody who says, Well, I do this and it works for me. Then someone's going to come in to defend the first person, then someone's going to come in to defend the second person, and then it turns to the same goddamn conversation from the first. And then the same thing happens if someone's just like, hey, I'm newly diagnosed, and I was wondering, here's an interesting one. My kids getting sick and tired of cheese sticks and jello. I need more free foods that will be met by lovely parents who We'll come in and give other options for low carb snacks. But inside of eight minutes, someone's going to come to tell them, there's no such thing as a free food. Which is true. They don't know that because they were just diagnosed, okay? But instead of just saying they don't mean free, they mean their understanding of free and saying to them, Hey, I know you're calling that a free food, but just heads up. You know, your kid might be honeymooning right now you're you might be seeing a doctor who's over baseline you to cover for your snacking, like that kind of stuff. But there's pretty much carbs and almost everything. And even something for example, like chicken that doesn't have carbs in it will be stored by your body as glucose later, and you'll see a rise later, right? You could say that. But instead, what they say is, there's no such thing as free foods, which is true, but not going to move the conversation along. So that's an interesting thing that people do too, is they'll come in and drop their truth bomb, but not add any context. Those people I always think are trying to search. That's how it seems to me. Like that's, that's kind of actually that's the phrase I use. I think there's sorry, here's what I think. Right? Like they,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 36:17
yes, maybe, maybe, maybe intentionally, maybe unintentionally. But I also wonder if you have this experience of, you know, there is such a huge learning curve in type one. And I would in the beginning, everything is so overwhelming, and you don't know what's what. And then one year in five years, in 10 years, and you start to learn more, and I wonder if you also have a sense of like, Oh, I've learned this, I know this 100% I feel pretty good about myself. But we forget that how our tone is going to

Scott Benner 36:50
Yeah, the communication. Yeah, communication, lets them download. Listen, I was put in a unique situation where I had to talk to people online for years, and it becomes obvious that you're like, there is a way to speak to people, that is not condescending, and it is not fake. But it doesn't make anybody upset. It's an A, you have to come from a like a real, honest point of view. And I still have a point of view, people know that I'm not like, I'm not milk toast, you know what I mean? But at the same time, there's a way to talk to people where you don't rile them up. And there's also a way to see that someone's already riled up beforehand. And then they start blaming each other. You're the reason that people would diabetes. It's people like you, it statements like that, like, that's, you're ruining the world, I figured out the great world, and you're ruining it. And then there's this feeling, I'm always amazed by people on their social media, or in these situations. They feel like they're talking to the whole world. I'm like, you're talking to hate people just calm down, like, like, nobody's you're not changing a goddamn thing. You're arguing with six people stop it, you know, like, or somebody with 150 followers on Instagram is putting up something that they clearly took the I don't know, days to write, and it's beautiful in prose, and everything in it gets three clicks. And I'm like, No one saw that, you know, but they still are acting like they're, that they're having that impact that drive. i It seems unstable to me. I don't know another way to put it. So that feeling that I'm talking to you and you need to listen, like that feels like that person has something to work out. That has nothing to do with this sometimes.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 38:48
Some Yeah, I think the probably a variety of factors. But trying I think going back to the having some semblance of control in feeling like you're in control of your life, or of your kids choices. We do that even though we know we're not we're not in control and birth control of some things. But in the larger picture, we're not really in control of everything. And perhaps that feeling of when maybe when life is spilling out of control, maybe you might speak in a certain way to say no, this this is the way it has to be done. This is the way it works for me. And this is the way you should do it. And maybe they lean into that sense of control when maybe other things are feeling more out of control.

Scott Benner 39:35
Yeah. So I'm going to use this as an example the other day online. I saw a person jump into a thread and stairs, like it was clear that's what they were doing. And then I took a hard look and I thought I know this person. They've been in here a long time. That doesn't make sense to me. And I had to remove their comment because it was hurtful and nasty and it was just gonna leave Need to more hurtful and nasty. And I took it out. But I took the moment to send a note. And I said, Hey, I don't know what's going on. But you can't do that. And you've been here a long time, this really surprised me. And I got a return note that said, I'm really sorry, I have two different family members in the hospital, one of them's out of state, I need to find a better way to relieve my stress here then to get online and do what I just did. And so my expectation is, is that most people are having some sort of a thing in their day, when this happens, like, I genuinely think people are, like, decent. You know what I mean? Like I don't, I don't think that anybody just in their best moment gets up and says, Let me go argue with somebody about what we're eating, or let me go compare this to that, or go blame a whole group of people for whatever. I don't think that that's the case, I think that, that there are enough people in the world, and they don't have enough access to the internet, that it only takes a couple of people having a bad day, to give you the impression that the world is a terrible place. And I just don't think that's true. You know, so I got a lot out of that response. And then I responded back and I said, Hey, you know, I just lost my mom, I think I have some idea of what you're talking about, and know how hard it is, I'm sorry, um, you know, please just, you know, keep visiting the group and feeling better. And if you're feeling like you need to lash out, like, I don't know, go do something else. Like, like, you know, leave those people alone. But, but I was the only one that had that compassionate response. Because when he started doing what he was doing, everybody else was like, boom, coming back at him swinging with some people are like, here's the rules in the group, or here, you can't say that or be nice or why. And I'm like, Oh, my God, like, none of this is going to go well. Like, you don't see that. And then they'll start telling me, like, he's wrong, not me. Because I'll say, Hey, be nice to him. And they'll be like, me, I'm not the problem. Like, ah, now you're both the problem. Like everyone should have to moderate a group of 40,000 people for a week, because you would you start seeing the world in a completely different way. It's, it's interesting. And my group is, and I think you can attest to this really harmonious and generally speaking, overall, a pretty lovely place to be, but it's still when it pops up. You're like, Oh, here's all the stuff that we go to therapy for.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 42:36
Yeah, I'm sure you see so many, you know, patterns of human nature that we all can grow in, you know, certain areas at certain times. I think one thing I just actually noticed in your in a post I read recently, that I thought was really gracious and kind a network that like totally off topic, kind of but you know, reading, I think oftentimes we insert ourselves, like you just said without reading the initial post or reading the thread, and someone very graciously said, Hey, I think you missed the first like the actual question, maybe go back and read the initial post. And I thought that was a really kind reminder to, like, you wouldn't insert yourself in a conversation that was happening in the living room if you were in the kitchen? Without I mean, maybe you would, but you know, without understanding what was happening, what's the context?

Scott Benner 43:30
I know what you're talking about? And I've seen it done both ways. I've seen it done like, Hey, I think you missed like the tone of like, you missed the question. There's also people who didn't miss the question. They're just using it as an opportunity to give you their opinion. And so it's, it's interesting, and I don't think everybody is going to listen to this and go, Oh, I do that I should do better. And as a matter of fact, I don't. I don't know. I don't think it's gonna help anybody. But I'm also I'm very cynical about this stuff. Because I just, when, when we're talking about something that is built over time, through experience, like through parenting, or upbringing, even if it's being pointed out to you right now, what is your real, like, chance of like, grabbing a hold of it and redirecting it? And my honest, my honest thought is, you have the best chance, in a situation like this where a person me and you who have no connection to their lives, like the people who are listening can say, hey, if this is happening to you, this is how it sounds to other people. Like maybe you don't want to sound like this because I don't think this is a thing. You can tell a spouse or a child or a close, like, you don't I mean, like I bet you if your husband acts up and you say something to him, he's like, Don't therapy me, and like, I'm not digging into your life, but I'm assuming that's happened.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 44:54
It's happened, okay.

Scott Benner 44:56
So you have a much greater chance of helping people you don't know who have no connection to you, then you do with helping the people around you. Because all this insight that I have, doesn't help me that much with my wife. Because she's like, you're an idiot. I've known you forever. Like, you know what I mean? Like, if you knew something like, you know, me, like, she doesn't take me seriously the way other people would. And my point about that is that everyone's in that situation, this is your best opportunity to see yourself in some of these descriptions and say, I don't want to be like that. Like, to me, that's why I'm having the conversation. So there's a look behind me, that's why I'm having this conversation. Because I think it could help people. But also, yes,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 45:37
yes, hopefully, and I think goes back to, you know, having the awareness and and the desire to change. And, and taking it back to, you know, why do we compare, I think, with it, but the example that we've been using in the Facebook group with food and eating styles, perhaps you feel that you obviously feel better about the way that you're eating, and maybe you find that self worth, that you've you found the way and you're going to compare it to other people, and that you feel better than other people, because you found a way that works for you. And I think that the highlight, you know, underlying theme that I know you talk about a lot in your Facebook group and on the the podcast is, you know, do what works for you. And that's okay, there's no right or wrong method of eating. And if we could all live in that space, that would be a beautiful thing to remember, you know, that's great if ketto works for you, or if eating whatever you want works for you. And doesn't always have to be all or nothing. Yeah.

Scott Benner 46:47
And it is more attractive to people psychologically to blame someone than it is to praise them. Is that not true?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 46:56
To blame, so psychologically attractive,

Scott Benner 46:59
like, are our brain lame, or? Yeah, like we're kind of wired. Like the blaming feels better than the prick than praising does that you'll hear people say that when you're being kind, it sounds fake to them. Do you ever hear people say that? Oh, I'm that makes me really sad when people say that, but like, you're being kind, you're phony, like, I'm not feeling as well, I think, you know, so they're so wired towards the destructive, like the blame, yes, that when they see kind, it rubs them wrong. That's really something

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 47:31
it's hard to receive and internalize as truth. Yes. And I think as the as the deliver, I was, I'm trying to understand that the sentence that you just said to, like, psychologically attractive to blame somebody? Are you saying that as like the person who's receiving that, or as the person or

Scott Benner 47:55
the person who gives it, like, I guess you get a feeling of superiority by blaming, right? So that's probably, and then that raises you up to, I'm better than these people like you. So all the all the self doubt you have inside, you can make it go away by pointing to someone who's clearly doing something wrong.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 48:15
Right? And that would, I would maybe argue that that's like, Oh, I'm going to boost my self esteem. I'm doing this thing of, I'm gonna blame somebody else, I'm gonna feel better about my thing. And then I have this kind of false self esteem. As opposed to, well, maybe maybe I have it right. Maybe I don't, that's okay. I'm just gonna be kind of myself regardless. Yeah.

Scott Benner 48:37
And listen, this, this conversation is extra interesting to me. Because if you're living with diabetes, or you're caring for somebody who has it, you are being judged constantly, by by blood tests and numbers on things and arrows and beeping and clarity reports, just, you know, your you can say, you're not being judged, and you shouldn't take this judgment. And that's all true, but it's happening, you are being judged constantly, right? You are either doing something right, or you're doing something wrong, or you're getting something right, and you don't even know how the hell it happens. You can't even take credit for, you know, like, like, and so that stuff's all happening. I think it's important to know that you're having all these different impacts like that we've been talking about because you are then going to go have a human interaction with somebody, your children, your husband, your wife, like somebody in your life, somebody online, and you're gonna have all these bad feelings that you don't have time to deal with because you're busy trying to keep someone's blood sugar from being dangerous one way or the other. And then, I don't know, I just think that most of the people who come off poorly online, I think if we could grab them one at a time, like I did with that person in my example, you'd find that is not who they are. It's not how they feel. And if you gave them a do over they would certainly not say the thing they just said. And I think the only way to slow that down is if everyone He understands that we're all in a really it's a high tension situation taking care of diabetes. Like constantly, you know, I feel at the time yeah, you feel like a, like a hostage negotiator constantly, like everything you do is about to kill somebody if you do it wrong, like, you know, so that's how it makes me feel.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 50:20
Absolutely, absolutely. And I think that's why, you know, I know I say it, probably almost every episode that we record, but just the significance of taking responsibility where you can releasing the blame and offering the self compassion of like, this is really hard to nail it every time. And we're not going to I mean, that's okay.

Scott Benner 50:43
I think you have to treat it like, like hitting a baseball, honestly. And just go wow, I got three out of the last 10 I'm so good at this. Yeah, I just really like that's it. I mean, that's an old saying, right, but you go three for 10 through a career, you're in the Hall of Fame. So hitting a baseball is really, really hard to do. Is that

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 51:06
Is that a true? That's a real stat. I did not know that. Yeah, hold

Scott Benner 51:09
on an average batting average. Of Hall of Fame. Average batting average of a Hall of Famer. Hall a second. Okay. So the top three are like old timey so they weren't even playing when people were athletic. Okay, Ty Cobb has the lifetime average of 366 point. 366 Rogers Hornsby point. 358 Joe Jackson, that's Shoeless Joe Jackson point. 356. Ted Williams batted career point 344. And to find somebody more like here, look, I don't know. If you don't know baseball. You don't know baseball. Tony Gwynn was a pro hitter. He batted point 338 for his his career, he got slightly over three hits every 10 times he was at bat. And there are people, big name people here and I'm scrolling down like I'm in the top 600. Now like, I'll give you a name that people are just gonna know. It's an old name. Roy Campanella. That's a baseball name. People know. He batted point. 276. That's it. Wow. So Cal Ripken, Jr. has a lifetime point. 276 batting average.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 52:28
And point two, seven. Yeah. So he got less than

Scott Benner 52:31
three hits every 10 times. And he's one of the best shortstops that ever played. And so, you know, it's just that, to me, is how I mean, I know this is overly simplified, but that's how I think about things. Like when you hear me say something, and you think I'm joking, I'm like, I set the bar really low. That way, I can't even trip over it. Like, like everything I do. I'm like, again, me succeeding. Right? And because you need that momentum, to set that next carrot on that next stick, and keep going. Like if you, if you bury yourself under a pile of dread the first time you do something you spend your whole life digging yourself out from it. Me, I was like, I can't believe I got dressed today. I'm killing it. Like, like, you know, and I just, there's a way to, there's a way to trick yourself into feeling that way. And then is what are you doing? You're faking it till you make it? Right? Like, that's a real thing for a reason. You know, so you keep to me, it's setting little, little goals succeeding and moving on. I do with my kids all the time, I'll even let them know I'm doing it. Like, you know, like, the other day. I said to my son, I was like, You should set up a, an IRA for yourself. Right? And he's like, Yeah, and I was like, yeah, man, I'm like, You got a job now, like, it won't be a lot of money. But you can put a little money aside every month. And, and I made sure to tell him like, you could have a short term goal of maybe owning a home if you wanted to, in the next 10 years, or something like that, you're gonna have a long term goal about retiring. And I said, and it doesn't need to be a lot, you can put in a little bit a manageable amount, and you'll get to these things. And he's like, okay, like, and that's it. So then I set him up with a person to help him set up an IRA, Ira. And then he called me and he said, Hey, I talked to the guy, and I was like, that's great. Great that you talk to him. I said, what's next? And he said, Oh, I gotta fill out the paperwork as I go. Let me know when you do that if you need help. And a week later, I got a call, Hey, what does this mean on this form? And I told him and he goes, good, you got all done as a great job. And he's like, thanks. I said, Hey, I'd like to put some money in it to get you started. And he's like, Oh, thank you. And he goes, You know what he said, I'll match whatever you put in up to this much. And I said, Well, if that's as much as you can put in, that's as much as I can put in and so and now he's on his way. Like

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 54:49
there's so many sweets so endearing. Oh my gosh, but but, but I

Scott Benner 54:53
didn't tell you because I'm how terrific I am. I told you because, hey, first of all, I wish somebody would have talked to me about money when I was a part Some, like a young person. And secondly, because that's an example of like five or six opportunities to put a little tiny carrot out in front of him. He reaches out and grabs it. He feels like he did something, I filled out the paperwork. Yeah, me, I called the guy yay, me, like that kind of stuff. And he feels like he's doing something without having a down payment on the house. Like, right? He, he thinks he's working towards it, I gotta be honest with you, it doesn't matter if he ever, it doesn't matter if he ever gets to it, it matters, that he has something to do, and that he has something to focus on, and that it's positive, and that it's achievable. Short term, long term. That's all I don't want to say I'm a genius, Erica, but there I just fixed it for you just do that.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 55:46
Well, then he, he's having this feedback loop, right? Of I did this thing, and I felt good about myself. And that is so important for the overall mental health right there who knows he has the capability, the competency, then he feels good for fulfilling that goal. And that's, that's super important that you're, you know, helping shape him in those steps.

Scott Benner 56:13
But that's the thing you could all do for yourself in little ways. All day long. Like if if you say, I'm going to put the laundry away, and then you don't do it, you made too big of a goal. Like you make it make a smaller thing and reach for that. You'll be surprised how it'll just get you like motivated. It makes you feel like you're doing something and you are by the way, you're not really lying to yourself, you are getting something accomplished. But that momentum and that expectation, by the way that you're going to accomplish things, it builds on itself. And then you don't have to be out in the world constantly comparing yourself to other people just to feel better, you'll actually feel better, because you've compared yourself to a thing that you did. And then you're the focus then yours, then you're George Clooney to you. Does that all make sense? I mean, I feel like I've bundled this up very nicely for everybody. But, but, but it's just that easy. Well, it's obviously not that easy. But But yes, it is. Right. Like there's, there's no more to it than that. I mean, the doing it's hard. The understanding what it is, is not hard, like and so I think my point is if you find yourself comparing yourself to people all the time, or if you find yourself blaming other people all the time, you just you probably just don't feel good about what you're doing. So go back and set the small goals where you can feel better about yourself, like don't look at your 12 a one C and when it's not a six next time, go What the hell say I wonder if I can get this to an 11 and a half. You only mean and, and work like that. To me, that makes sense.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 57:47
Anyway, yeah, taking smaller, a larger goal, breaking it up into smaller chunks. We talk I talk about that a lot. And even just, you know, thinking about like, the laundry example, or the exercise of like, okay, if the doing folding the laundry, putting away I feel that that is a really challenging task in my household is to say, I'm gonna do the socks today, you know, and you're like, Yes, I did the socks and tomorrow, you're gonna do the shirts. Same thing with any task of saying, I'm just gonna set the timer and do it for five minutes. And you're done. Don't, don't do the treadmill for 30 Do it for five,

Scott Benner 58:21
I had trouble standing up after my surgery on my foot. So I said to my wife and my daughter who's home from school, right now, if you guys could just fold the laundry. That'd be really great. Right? So they took care of their laundry, they left my laundry folded on my side of the room. And I thought, I can't put this away right now. So I told myself, I'm going to dress out of the pile. And I'm going to make that okay for myself this week. Yeah, so I got dressed out of the pile of clothing, like they were in the drawers. And I didn't say to myself, you're a scumbag for not putting these clothes away. I can't believe you're living out of a pile of clothes. I actually said that's my goal. I'm gonna live out the pile of clothes today because I can't stand up too long because of my foot. And I don't want to torture myself about this. And I know that when I walk into the room, I look at the pile of clothing. And I think just put that away. Don't do that. But instead I just made it an okay thing. And that was it. And by the way, I still got the podcast on. I got other stuff accomplished this week. And I don't know it's all here. Listen, I'm gonna make this last point and you can wrap up. I don't know if you know who showy Otani is, but he's arguably the best baseball player that is alive right now playing the names familiar? Yeah, he's batting point. 306 Right now, every person in the world who understands baseball would want him on their baseball team. He's astonishingly good. So that's it be a be a 300 battery, batting average. That's what I would do. I'd shoot for that be amazing. You get three out of 10 things done that you set up every week. Then just reset them again. You know, I don't know. And here's a piece of advice from me to anybody else. Make your to do list flexible. Don't set one to 10 And then say to yourself, I can't get to two until I do one. If If three becomes more important than one to you slide three to one, just keep moving it around it, it goes a long way to not torturing yourself. So anyway,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:00:12
that's it, may I add on your to do list? Be kind yourself. Sometimes I encourage people to have your big to do list and then on Monday, you have folded laundry, number one, number two, be kind yourself. And then that's and then number two on Tuesdays two of those things,

Scott Benner 1:00:28
again, a very doable, that's what I'm saying. It's a very doable thing that you can check off your list make you feel like you've accomplished something, and it's good for you on top of that, so Yeah, beautiful. That's exactly right. All right, Erica, Erica forsythe.com. Right, what states are doing virtually right now?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:00:46
California, Utah, Oregon, and Florida,

Scott Benner 1:00:49
in person in California, in person in California. Okay, thank you very much.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:00:53
Thank you.

Scott Benner 1:01:04
First, I want to thank Erica and remind you to check her out at Erica foresight.com that I want to thank all of you for listening, and better help for sponsoring this episode better help.com forward slash juice box save 10% off your first month of therapy when you use my link. I hope you enjoyed our little thought exercise today. I enjoyed having the conversation with Erica, if you want to check out the private Facebook group that we were talking about. It's called Juicebox Podcast type one diabetes. That's pretty much it. Thanks so much for listening. I'll be back very soon with another episode of The Juicebox Podcast.

A day diabetes diagnosis comes with a lot of new terminology. And that's why I've created the defining diabetes series. These are short episodes where Jenny Smith and I go over all of the terms that you're going to hear living with diabetes, and some of them that you might not hear every day, from the very simple Bolus up to feed on the floor. Don't know the difference between hypo and hyper will explain it to you. These are short episodes, they are not boring. They're fun, and they're informative. It's not just us reading to you out of the dictionary, we take the time to chat about all of these different words. Maybe you don't know what a coup small respiration is, you will when you're done. Ever heard of glycemic index and load haven't doesn't matter. You will know after you listen to the defining diabetes series. Now, how do you find it, you go to juicebox podcast.com up top to the menu and click on defining diabetes. You'll be able to listen right there in your browser. Or you'll see the full list of the episodes and be able to go into an audio app like Apple podcasts or Spotify and listen to them at your pace. Download them into your phone and listen when you can. The defining diabetes series is made up of 51 short episodes. That will fast forward your knowledge of diabetes terminology

#1034 Diabetes Myths: Cinnamon

A brand new series examining the myths surrounding diabetes.

+ Click for EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Scott Benner 0:00
Hello friends, and welcome to episode 1034 of the Juicebox Podcast

all these months and I still can't say the word myth with an S at the end but today is the second to last myth episode. And Jenny and I will be talking about cinnamon gets its own little episode cinnamon. While you're listening. Please remember that nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise. Always consult a physician before making any changes to your healthcare plan or becoming bold with insulin. If you're looking to support the podcast and help yourself at the same time cozy earth.com use the offer code juice box at checkout to save 40% on your towels you sheets and you're comfortables quality stuff at a good price. Cozy earth.com Then take 40% off and voila, you're wearing great gear on the discount. You can also get yourself some Omni pod products at my podcast the Linky linker Omni pod.com forward slash juicebox get in there get yourself a dash or now the pod five

this episode of The Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by us med us med.com forward slash juice box or call 888-721-1514 Call the number or go to the link get your free benefits check and you're on your way to getting your diabetes supplies the same way we do from us med us med.com forward slash juicebox Kenny we're here doing a myth episode. Yeah and we did early on in the episode we did the miracle cures but we very I can only guess yes we very purposefully we very purposely during the miracle cure episode did not bring up go ahead. Cinnamon Cinnamon, because it deserved its own episode. That's why because it deserves its own episode. So let's start off with why do people so widely believed that cinnamon cures diabetes? Do you have any idea?

Jennifer Smith, CDE 2:38
Well and cure there being an interesting word within the whole thing to because it isn't in no way is is cinnamon a cure. So that's just a complete single statement. Cinnamon is not going to cure any kind of diabetes. However, there are actually a fair number of studies that were done specifically in type two diabetes that showed with certain amounts of cinnamon, somewhat of a shift in glucose response in the body is somewhat of a shift to more optimal fasting blood sugar levels etc. So the cruddy thing is that now cinnamon is like the it's the it is the cure all it's the number one that most people hear about is I'm just going to take cinnamon, I mean, they're even I don't even know what the tablets are called. But there are cinnamon tablets and there are probably multiple brands at this point. But years ago, at one of my conventions, they actually had a they had a table instead of in the convention hall, the cinnamon product that was like a tablet just take the cinnamon tablets along with your meal times. I mean they had it at like a national clinical convention. They got a table.

Scott Benner 4:12
I don't so listen, I don't want to say that there's no benefit of from cinnamon. I I'm not saying that. But if I google cinnamon cure, I get there's this funny. Cinnamon cured bacon, which is the only Here you go cinnamon cures for high blood pressure for ulcers, infection, bad breath, toothache, throat pain, headaches, irregular menstruation, arthritis, skin allergies. And whenever

Jennifer Smith, CDE 4:44
lipid lipids are usually in their cholesterol levels are typically in there to

Scott Benner 4:48
these returns do not bring back diabetes. I have to type the deed to get toasting Yeah. So this is a thing that is bandied about so much in the world. that if you ask somebody with type one, what do people think? Here's type one diabetes, they're gonna say cinnamon. Like everyone has heard that at some point or another but in a Google search it does not pop right up. That's really interesting. Yeah, I that threw me off by the way. I thought it was gonna I thought it was gonna come up with lights on it at the top. And it wasn't there. But, but there's I mean, here's the Healthline article 10 evidence based health benefits of cinnamon, antioxidants. Let's see. I mean, it's the bark of a tree. Right? It may have anti inflammatory properties. It could protect against heart disease, it could improve sensitivity to insulin. Okay, here we go. Health Line. Why do you think that this essential for transplant? Don't explain insulin, Amanda was pretty isn't that funny? Isn't that funny? There's a headline here. Let me be clear. Number five on the Health Line 10 things that cinnamon might do list. Number five, it says could improve sensitivity to insulin, it doesn't make a distinction. Well, here we go. Insulin is one of the key hormones it explains what insulin is. This is all the text that's here. It's essential for transporting blood sugar from your bloodstream to your cells. However, some people are resistant to the effects of insulin. This is known as insulin resistance a hallmark condition like metabolic syndrome and type two diabetes. While more research is needed, some studies suggest that cinnamon may be able to reduce insulin resistance by increasing insulin sensitivity cinnamon can lower blood sugar levels and support better blood sugar control. I'm just gonna say something and no offense to helpline that doesn't say anything. That's a lot of words that doesn't say anything.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 6:45
Yeah. And in no way does it. And thankfully it doesn't it No way. Does it say anything about it being a cure.

Scott Benner 6:52
It doesn't matter type one diabetes either.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 6:55
No, it doesn't. Because this this studies are. There are astounding numbers of type two studies. There are not in type one. And in fact, years ago, I actually did an article for a nutrition publication that was about it was supposed to be about the benefits of cinnamon in diabetes management. And honestly, what I uncovered is the fact that there are multiple kinds of cinnamon. Did you know that?

Scott Benner 7:24
I'm learning that now? Yeah.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 7:27
And I mean, the one that we commonly have here in the United States? Well, there are two of them, actually. One of them is called Cassia. That's the most common type. Also kind of called Saigon cinnamon. And it wasn't actually even made in Saigon, it was just the place perfect name, then it was a trading post essentially. Right. Right. So it didn't it wasn't even produced there. There's nothing grown cinnamon there. Through and then the one that actually is not. And I hate using the word detrimental, but unfortunately, a lot of the studies prove that there is actually an amount of cinnamon that is too much. And caseus cinnamon especially has a high concentrations of something called coumarin. Okay, which can be not great for your liver function.

Scott Benner 8:29
So here my diabetes is cinnamon. I mean, it's

Jennifer Smith, CDE 8:31
right like this is that rolling ball that if you sprinkle cinnamon on your toast or your oatmeal or you know, on your bacon every single morning, fine, absolutely. You are no detriment whatsoever, obviously. But the type of cinnamon that, you know, the studies were done with is certainly not a sprinkling. I mean it's a fair amount of cinnamon in order to be able to show benefit to insulin resistance. And the better type of insulin is actually called Ceylon. It's ce YLON has a much softer sweeter you don't need very much of it. And of course, Are there studies using that one? No.

Scott Benner 9:16
What about this here? I'm still in this hell fine article. I've now scrolled down number six. It says apart from the beneficial effects on insulin resistance. Cinnamon can lower blood sugar through several mechanisms. First, Cinnamon has been shown to decrease the amount of sugar that enters your bloodstream after a meal. That I mean,

Jennifer Smith, CDE 9:37
did they give you a portion? It means not a portion but a dose.

Scott Benner 9:40
What they don't say is that by how much right? Like I know if I eat something and my blood sugar was gonna go up 200 points from it. If I have type one, but it only goes up 195 points then I you know, I also think that they are very specific. Well, I don't want to use the word specifically. This article is not specifically talking about type to diabetes, but I think that's what they're talking about. I would expect Yeah. It interferes with numerous digestive enzymes, which slows down, which slows the breakdown of carbs in your digestive tract. So that's how like ozempic works, right? It slows digestion. So if you could slow digestion, you could spread out the impact. But again, that's not going to help a type one. I mean, it like a lot. I mean, it might help a little, but it's not going to be any big impact.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 10:30
It's not going to be a big impact. So I think that's the that's the detriment of saying your or saying, hey, everybody should use, you know, this whopping amount of cinnamon on a day to day basis. I mean, I love cinnamon, I use cinnamon every single day. But I don't take it in tablet form.

Scott Benner 10:53
Right, the expectation is going to bring, see I think here's the problem, right? Like, the effective dose here they're talking about is one to six grams or a half to two teaspoons of cinnamon per day. Have you found that getting your diabetes supplies can be a pain in the butt. I have to but not any longer because now we're getting Arden's diabetes supplies from us med to get a free benefits check, just call 888-721-1514 or go to us med.com forward slash juicebox. US med has served over 1 million diabetes customers since 1996. And they want you to know that they're offering you better service and better care than you're getting now. US med always provides 90 days worth of supplies, and fast and free shipping. They carry everything from insulin pumps and diabetes testing supplies to the latest CGM like the FreeStyle Libre two and the Dexcom G six. Arden gets her Dex comps and her on the pods from us med. US med accepts Medicare nationwide and over 800 private insurers. US med is the number one distributor for FreeStyle Libre systems. The number one specialty distributor for Omnipod dash, number one fastest growing tandem distributor, the number one rated distributor index com customer service satisfaction surveys. And they are proud of the white glove treatment that they offer their customers. Us med.com forward slash juicebox or call 888-721-1514. And that 888 Number is special just for Juicebox Podcast listeners. Now if you decide to go to the website, it's super simple. Here's what it tells you when you get there Getting started is easy. from the comfort of your own home or office. You can now join over 1 million satisfied customers who rely on our staff of courteous knowledgeable and trained us med customer care representatives to keep you up to date with your medical and diabetic supplies delivered right to your door. Super simple benefits check name phone number email zip code, and then just hit the button that says Request a free benefits check. It's that easy. Let us med take care of your supplies so you don't have to worry

Jennifer Smith, CDE 13:14
that's a that's a lot of cinnamon. Yeah, like if you think about ever cooking with cinnamon if you make any kind of like banana bread or cookies or whatever right the whole recipe which probably makes 20 servings includes a half to a full teaspoons but yeah, I mean you're not going to sit down and be like this teaspoon of cinnamon is really lovely.

Scott Benner 13:36
I think we're the the shame of this is and I'm not just listen health lines what popped up There's any number of articles that you could find I'm not defending health, I'm just saying I'm not coming after them either. But the idea that there's there's no quantification here there's no like, Yeah, you like, like, Look, if if, if your if your insulin to carb ratio is one unit covers 100 You know, lowers you 100 points and I can say look, use a unit of insulin, your blood sugar come down 100 point, nothing like that as being said here, it's not a teaspoon is gonna buy you in a one C of blah blah blah. Like, I think what I think is it wouldn't hurt you to eat some cinnamon, but it's

Jennifer Smith, CDE 14:16
sure Yeah, in fact, cinnamon is a great additive flavor to something that you might have used something like sugar or extra, you know what I mean? You might have used something that actually isn't as beneficial for your blood sugar control. So if you add in a little bit of a flavor, it's much like using something like Mrs. Dash instead of salt, you add a whole bunch of flavor and it replaces essentially for you. So absolutely there's nothing wrong with using Cena

Scott Benner 14:45
and we've had a really popular episode of this podcast where somebody talked about like eating foods and certain orders or certain foods and like you know things that might help keep your blood sugar from spiking and I've heard back from a lot of people we've had a lot of success with it. I'm not like Pooh poohing it. I'm trying to tell All right, I think it all comes from. But I just have to say like, if you go through this article, it is littered with phrases like may help, could be has been known to a lot of a lot of legal phrasing, which means any promising you anything.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 15:20
And even if you go to more not just what is usually looking at health line you said, right. So even if you go to someplace that's got a bigger name something like mail, right, yeah, just very well known. Their information that you can find also uses those words. So it's not just that it's coming from a source that's collectively looking at something as a potential, it's coming from the fact that nowhere has proven 100% Worth and or the the specific dose or amount that you should or could use in a safe way that provides this true 100% benefit. So they have to say, May, it could do this for you give it a try. I mean, you know, it could be like trying, right? There's no harm in trying. Yeah,

Scott Benner 16:14
but just it's just you just have to be careful when you're reading. I mean, there's a sentence here that says widely studied, which makes you go widely studied Oh, a lot of people think this, but then the words potential come up afterwards. So potential use of don't forget, it's been limited to test tubes and animal studies that suggest like it's the phrasing is interesting, but it doesn't matter because once it gets into the world, it's cinnamon cures diabetes, and you're like it's insane. Alright, ready? Here we go. Cinnamon will cure you. cinnamon apple cider vinegar. I have heard somebody telling me that cinnamon will cure me so many times. I can't count. I have had colleagues who are scientists tell me that I need to just have cinnamon. It will cure my type one diabetes. Have more cinnamon. I was told that's gonna cure it. More cinnamon will get you off of insulin.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 17:13
So oh, let's see. Those are the worrisome. Giant.

Scott Benner 17:17
This isn't gonna stop by the way. Cinnamon have it with ginseng, then it really works. You just if you just mix that cinnamon with ginseng. Now you're on to something. Hold on.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 17:30
Well, why don't you just mix it with your beverage of choice? To right, like, throw it all together?

Scott Benner 17:37
Hold on. Ready? I'm literally Oh, I have to eat cinnamon but I have to drink it with okra water. Oh, let's see this person. That person. This is one from another episode where they said a foot massage would cure my diabetes. And the woman joked and said but only if I probably sprinkle cinnamon on my foot first. So many different variations of the cinnamon things. The ladies like I've heard from so many people that have taken this idea. Cinnamon cures it and then they commingle it with something else. And then they tell us what I think Jewish people would call Booba Meister a big story about it. Oh, just takes over my sister. My Yiddish. I know just enough to be dangerous. Just take cinnamon and you'll get better. Oh, has it gotten worse? You should increase your cinnamon. That's it those that's the things that people talked about. But since that sentiment, I just wanted to make sure that cinnamon got its own shout out here. Because it deserves it deserves Yes, I

Jennifer Smith, CDE 18:44
you know, and years ago, like I said, when I did that article, I learned a lot about it, which was interesting to me. And I actually changed the kind of cinnamon that I use, because of the cause of doing the research, right? The majority of the research around the type of cinnamon to use, like I said earlier is the case sia or Cassia. I don't know exactly how you say it or pronounce it. And that's the one that actually does have more information about dos being too much at one time. And you know, potentials to that causing problems, especially for those who might already have liver disease or it may cause issues. I mean, again, I like cinnamon. So it's like well, I can easily switch to the other kind of cinnamon it's more expensive, but I actually like the flavor a lot better and it doesn't carry the same

Scott Benner 19:42
I think I think you're also making a point that you're not really coming out and saying is that if you turn a little screw over here and turn a little screw over here and turn it off a little screws you might actually see a little different. Yeah, a little difference, right? So zactly like, you know, cinnamon by the fistful is not going to make You're diabetes go and

Jennifer Smith, CDE 20:00
nor have I tried, right? I'm like, I'm gonna just try this whole big screw over here. I'm just gonna give it all the cinnamon, I'm not going to take my insulin for the day and see that we're clearly right.

Scott Benner 20:11
I mean, if you listen, if I don't know if if okra water or I don't know apple cider vinegar in that way I don't know, I'm just saying like, if you got a tiny bit of benefit out of all these things, or if it just made you feel better, like, right on like you and me, like I'm not telling anybody not to do anything, and I'm a proponent of taking supplements or things I take a fair amount of supplements every day, and they have definitely benefited me. The problem with any kind of supplementation, I think, is that it doesn't hit you fast enough for you to be 100% sure that it actually did anything. And you have to have this very big view of it. Like, I'm going to take this for weeks or months. And I'm gonna see like, do I feel different now? Like, can I look back and say, I feel better now than I did before? If I stopped taking it, do I see myself going in the other direction? Like, there's a lot of trial and error that needs to be used.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 21:09
And I think there's a it's a good point to make, because I think when you start to add any type of supplement in particular, yes, it takes a while for it to start working. And to. To do a true experiment, you have to filter out variables, you have to filter out and not really change anything else. Well, maybe if this one's a supplement that you're taking behind the scenes is making a difference. And so you're feeling better. And so maybe that feeling better means that you can now have enough energy at six o'clock in the morning to get out and start taking a walk when before you didn't. You may not put those things together. And so then your health outcome later is it's it's better. But is it because you started taking the supplement? Or is it a combination of the supplements started making you feel better? And you started taking this daily walk? Do you know what I mean? Yeah, maybe

Scott Benner 22:02
you're just focusing on yourself more. And maybe the Ashwagandha is not helping you at all, but maybe it's got you focused on taking better care of yourself. So Correct. What's the harm? Yeah, I gotcha. Okay. I think it's a lot of mindset. It really is. I mean, if if putting a table a table, oh my god, honestly, a tablespoon. If putting a little sprinkle of like cinnamon on your food, makes you feel like you're doing something, then that might be good for you. Like, don't worry, don't worry. I take I take magnesium, vitamin D, zinc. I take ashwagandha every day, I don't know that it helps me or not, I really couldn't begin to tell you. I do feel better now than I ever have. I've also just lost 30 pounds. So maybe it's who cares? Like it's working? So like I'm moving in the right direction is the way I think of it.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 22:55
Yes. So you don't have a full on one particular thing evaluation. This is what worked because I didn't change anything else. You don't have that. Right. Yeah. Okay, well, it's all working together. So I'm just not gonna I'm gonna keep it.

Scott Benner 23:08
I can afford to spend $50 Every couple of months on these things. And I'm going in the right direction. So all right, Jenny, because this is the last episode. I want to thank you very much for doing this with me. I am very excited for the thing we're going to do next, which I don't think we're going to tell people about right here but I'm super excited about it. And as well. Yeah, and boba Meister has a long story or wives tale. That is something a grandma would tell it's Yiddish for bubba or grandmother. I asked about the family and she started in on a Baba Meister about hospitals. So

Jennifer Smith, CDE 23:43
interesting. Well, thank you for the little sure in for information about a word I had. I had not heard that before. I've heard many many words, but I've not heard that one.

Scott Benner 23:53
I gave a weekend talk at an orthodox event. And my knowledge of Yiddish was a huge people loved it. Let's just expand it Yes, I came in I said to you, am I using this word right there? Like how do you know that word? I was like, Haha, I am.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 24:07
I did my homework. Alright, hold on a second.

Scott Benner 24:19
Well, there's one more myth episode coming next week. But I want to thank Jenny right now for this one. Jennifer is available to you if you'd like to hire her. She works at integrated diabetes.com I also want to thank us med for being a longtime sponsor of the Juicebox Podcast us med.com forward slash juice box or call 888-721-1514 Get your free benefits check and get going today with us med. Of course us matters where Arden gets her Dexcom G seven and her Omni pod dash from if you know somebody who has type two or prediabetes, keep listening after the music for the rest of you. Thank you So much for listening. I'll be back soon with another episode of The Juicebox Podcast. If you have typed to or pre diabetes, that type two diabetes Pro Tip series from the Juicebox Podcast is exactly what you're looking for. Do you have a friend or a family member who is struggling to understand their type two and how to manage it? This series is for them. seven episodes to get you on track and up to speed. Episode 860 series intro 864 guilt and shame. Episode 869 medical team 874 fueling plan, Episode 880 diabetes technology episode 85 GLP ones metformin and insulin and an episode 889. We talk about movement. This episode is with me and Jenny Smith. Of course you know Jenny is a certified diabetes care and education specialist. She is a registered and licensed dietitian and Jenny has had type one diabetes for over 30 years. Too many people don't understand their type two diabetes, and this series aims to fix that. Share it with a friend or get started today.

#1033 Figuring Out Hawley

Hawley has type 1 diabetes and a number of other issues.

+ Click for EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Scott Benner 0:00
Hello friends, and welcome to episode 1033 of the Juicebox Podcast.

Today's episode is a tour de force. I have Holly on the show. She's a 40 year old type one. And she's got a lot going on here the episodes jam packed. I feel like I don't want to explain it to you here. Because then you know, it feels like a given away. Let's just say there's surprises abundantly available to you in this episode of The Juicebox Podcast while you're listening to it. Please remember that nothing you hear on said podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise, always consult a physician before making any changes to your health care plan or becoming bold with insulin. You can support the podcast by using my links there in the show notes of your podcast player and at juicebox podcast.com. Or you can type them into a browser. For example, you could save 40% off your entire order at cozy earth.com using the offer code juice box at checkout do that you'll save 40% Go to drink a G one.com forward slash juice box get a free year supply of vitamin D and five free travel bags with your first order. You can get your Omni pods from Aldi, pij Dexcom, from Dexcom Yukon to our next gen meters. Just use the links this episode of The Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by Omni pod Omni pod.com forward slash juicebox. Use my link get the Omni pod dash or the AMI pod five, and they'll get it right over to you. They zimny boom comes to you. I don't mean I don't know the whole process, but you'll figure it out at the link. The podcast is also sponsored today, by Dexcom dexcom.com. Forward slash juicebox. You want to Dexcom G seven, of course you do use my link dexcom.com forward slash juicebox. You can get the G six or the G seven. I think he can actually get a test drive and the G six. Speaking of that you might be able to get a test drive with the Omnipod of my like, my legs are terrific. Check them out.

Hawley 2:18
My name is Holly and I am an adult with type one diabetes. I'm a mother of one. And yeah, that's That's it.

Scott Benner 2:29
Let's get this out of the way. First. Is your name Holly? Yes, it's Holly but spelled differently. Yes, correct. I honestly you don't have to finish. This is the only reason I had you on the show. I just wanted to find out.

Hawley 2:44
Yeah, I always tell people who are old enough they get this reference that to think of the show he Hall. And it's just like Hall li

Scott Benner 2:54
ya know, I mean, I've always thought that I just, I could never like I've never seen that before. Your parents do that here.

Hawley 3:04
It is a common last name. I'll say that for some. And so that is how I came around that spelling. Gotcha.

Scott Benner 3:13
That makes sense to me. All right. And like I said, everything else is going to be a bonus. I just wanted to know why your name is spelt like this. Is it a southern thing?

Hawley 3:22
I don't think so. Know. What part of the country you from, like vaguely northwest Arkansas.

Scott Benner 3:29
Where's that? That's not southern? That's like Midwestern.

Hawley 3:32
No, it's well, so northwest Arkansas has its own unique little area. Because we're Walmart Ville. And so we have people from all over. And we're also so close to the border. They're in like Missouri and Oklahoma. We're kind of a little liberal pocket in the south in Northwest Arkansas.

Scott Benner 3:53
Interesting. Yeah, I don't know anything about the map, obviously. Like you just said, Arkansas. I'm so like, I don't know where that is. Wait, is it near Tennessee? To the left?

Hawley 4:07
Yeah, on the right. You have to go east from all the way east from where I am, I think to head towards Tennessee.

Scott Benner 4:14
But like, like longitude and latitude. It's like, yeah, it's in that line there.

Hawley 4:19
Yes. Yeah, we're below them. I believe the Mason Dixon Line and we're considered Southern, it's just that. I know, I grew up in this area. And while there are some things that are very southern, especially if you go, you know, I don't know, 30 miles into the country. We also have this kind of urban development mix going on, because there's so much corporate so we have people from internationally and all over the globe living here. So it's kind of a neat area.

Scott Benner 4:51
So you don't think of that. So Arkansas is not thought of as Midwestern.

Hawley 4:55
No, no, it is Southern. But it also But believe me that people love their Razorback football. Okay. But I have I know enough to know that this is a really kind of unique spot in Arkansas.

Scott Benner 5:12
Gotcha. That's cool. All right. I'm gonna look at a map later and try to see if I can remember. You have. Let's see, what's your situation? What's your background? Do you have diabetes?

Hawley 5:22
Yes, I am the type one. And I just have though one daughter, and she actually has what the endocrinologist called insulin resistance. And I just asked the other day, if that's a polite way of saying type two, and he said, yes and no, because she doesn't meet the blood sugar cut off. She hasn't had a blood sugar high enough to diagnose her with type two, but she does have insulin resistance. Okay, well, how

Scott Benner 5:49
old were you when you were diagnosed?

Hawley 5:51
I just know, it was in 1997. And I was either 14 or 15. But I can't remember I always my memories, not

Scott Benner 5:58
the best. That's like 24 years ago, 25 years ago?

Hawley 6:01
Yeah, definitely over 20 years. Yeah. Okay.

Scott Benner 6:06
Other people in your family with type one? Yes or no? No, no other autoimmune for you. Were trying

Hawley 6:13
to figure that out. Okay. So, like, No, I'm been on a very many years journey of trying to figure out what the heck is going on with my body. But it's complicated by having had breast cancer and 2015. And it was kind of like, is this a result of damage from chemo? And many, many surgeries? Or is this something else? Is it the Tamoxifen medicine I'm on? Because tamoxifen can cause all of these, you know, pretty horrendous symptoms? Or is it something else? And so it's been since 2015, that I've kind of been trying to figure all of that out.

Scott Benner 7:04
So what do you have happening that you can't get figured out? Like, what's your sense? What are your symptoms?

Hawley 7:09
Okay, so I don't eat a ton. And I'm pretty active, not like, I don't love exercise, like, I'm not a runner, but I own a pet sitting business. So sometimes in the summer, I'm walking four hours a day, and just like gaining weight, like, you know, I see. And then fatigue is something and then I have chronic pain in my hands. Wrist was diagnosed with carpal tunnel during my pregnancy with my daughter. And then it has progressed to like my entire arms and shoulders. But you know, they also took out lymph nodes under each armpit pit whenever I had my double, or my my mastectomy, right. And so it's like, Is the pain coming from post surgical trauma? Soft tissue? Is it bone? Is it joint, is it, you know? And like, I literally just came back from seeing a massage therapist because my arms have gotten so bad. They tested me for RA for the second time. I still don't have any markers. Yeah. And I went to go see a guy who specializes in kind of orthopedic post operative massage and healing. And he said, I have hypermobility, which I had just been researching on behalf of my daughter, but I didn't think I had it. And that was one of the things he said to me within the first seven minutes of getting on his table.

Scott Benner 8:48
Do you think any of this is hormonal? Do you feel it flaring around your period or anything like that?

Hawley 8:53
I think there's definitely hormonal things at play that has been one of my biggest hurdles in managing my diabetes have because of the I was I had a what they called a I want to say like chemically induced menopause when I was in chemo, it just means the chemo caught, you know, causes your body to stop having your cycle right. So but then they put you on the Tamoxifen which if I'm any health field, people correct me but I believe it's not that it suppresses your estrogen but that it interferes with your body's cells ability to absorb it. So the idea being you would essentially starve out because I had estrogen sensitive cancer. So you starve any remaining cells of that cancer cells in your body by making it where it can't get to the estrogen. But in doing that, it caused horrible cysts, huge, huge hormonal swings, drastic insulin resistance Since like it was maybe one of the hardest diabetes phases of my life. And since then I finally went off of it, and it's better. But I still have very noticeable shifts in usage and other things. Through I tracked my cycles closely, shall we say, because there are definite things that happen.

Scott Benner 10:24
Yeah, go back for a second. Did you say you were suppressing estrogen was something?

Hawley 10:29
Tamoxifen is not it. As far as I know, it doesn't suppress it. But it interferes with your body's ability to like, access it. That's kind of my understanding,

Scott Benner 10:40
because joint pain can be attached to like progesterone and estrogen, estrogen, like, well,

Hawley 10:45
I stopped taking it, they want you to be on it. According to my oncologist, they five to 10 years, but we stopped at, I forget what it was maybe six years, because my symptoms were so bad, my quality of life was horrendous. So they reduced my dose to half from 10 milligrams to five. And then I was on that half dose and things got better, but still were pretty horrible. And I finally said, I enough, like my diabetes is so heavily affected by this. I'm not taking this anymore. I have to live and so I don't take tamoxifen anymore,

Scott Benner 11:24
right. Okay, so here's what I have. Estrogen has an anti inflammatory effect on the body. So there's that. So if you're interfering with estrogen being used, would it interfere with that? I'm just asking the question. And then scientists have found exposure to the hormone progesterone activates genes that trigger inflammation. Or you may be getting like fluctuations in your, in your hormonal balance that are causing joint pain is the joint pain constant.

Hawley 11:54
It's constant with major flares. Like it's constant. I'm always in a state of pain. But sometimes it's worse than others.

Scott Benner 12:04
Do you hear my episode when I talked about art and using no vas at all?

Hawley 12:08
I did. I did. And I that's one of the things I need to look into. Because I know because I want to say I'm triple positive for estrogen receptors that I'm really limited on what sort of the hormonal support I can you

Scott Benner 12:25
Gotcha. Okay. All right. All right. Well, that's a lot. Let's go back to the beginning now. So your diagnosis, a teen going into like your sophomore year of high school. And you've sent me some notes, so I don't want to ignore them. Did you drink a little bit in college and high school?

Hawley 12:42
Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Scott Benner 12:45
Why did you bring it up in your notes?

Hawley 12:48
Specifically, you were asking for after dark episodes. And also, I think diabetes is a very fear based thing so frequently, and I want people to know that there are ways and then there are ways and that approaching things. I guess, being smart about your poor decision making is a thing you can do.

Scott Benner 13:15
How do you mean?

Hawley 13:17
Like, you know, I think I was raised to think of drinking as being irresponsible, and then once just in general, right, and then drinking too much, you just shouldn't do it. That was a thing you shouldn't do. But then when you're diabetic, there's this extra layer that gets piled on top of that of everything in your life, well, then you definitely shouldn't do that. When in reality, I think it is. Drinking is a thing that can be problematic for everyone. And we and as someone who's diabetic, you have to learn to approach things that have risks, and make smart choices to like, set yourself up for success in those choices you're making. So, you know, I did lots of dumb stuff. But I was pretty smart about how I did dumb stuff,

Scott Benner 14:05
even even as a younger person. Yes, yeah. Why did you see that? I mean, how did you get to that? Like, why were you pre planning or drinking, for example, like to help yourself is like, did you think like, I have diabetes, but I still want to drink? And this is how I can accomplish it. How would you like to know what your blood glucose is without having to stick a hole in your finger, you can with the Dexcom G seven. And you can learn more about the Dexcom g7@dexcom.com forward slash juicebox. Not only does Dexcom offer zero finger sticks, but you can get your glucose readings right on your smart device that's your iPhone or your Android don't have a phone. That's okay. You can use Dex comms receiver. On any of these devices, you're able to set up customizable alerts and alarms, setting your optimal range so that you'll get notified when your glucose levels go too high or too low. Oh, and you can share this data with up to 10 followers. Imagine what that could look like your child could be at school, and their data could be available to you, your spouse, their aunt, the school nurse, anyone who you choose, my daughter has been wearing a Dexcom for ever. And Dexcom helps us in multiple ways. Around meals, we're able to see if our boluses are well timed, and well measured. If they aren't, we can tell by how her blood sugar reacts, and then go back the next time and make an adjustment. Without the Dexcom CGM. We're sort of flying blind, but not just that meals. Also during activity and sleep. The Dexcom offers us an unprecedented level of comfort and security, being able to see my daughter's blood sugars in real time. And not just the number. But the speed and direction is an absolute game changer. If you're using insulin, the Dexcom is at the center of how we've been able to keep our daughter's a one C between five two and six two. for over seven years, we've been able to minimize variability and keep her blood sugar's in a stable range. Because of the information that we can see with the Dexcom. These are our results and yours may vary. But using Dex coms feedback has helped my daughter without any food restrictions, live a more normal and healthy life dexcom.com forward slash juice box.

Hawley 16:33
I don't, I don't remember in my teens, I didn't. I mean, I did drink in my teens, but not not as much as when I was in college. But I just remember seeing friends and how they behaved when they drink too much. And now look, I had to be rescued. I made a fool of myself a time or two. But I learned very quickly I didn't ever want to be. I didn't like not being in control and aware of my surroundings and able to make decisions. And so I kind of learned to navigate the drinking in my brain to where I thought, Okay, well, I'm kind of drunk, I can tell how my body feels, I can still make decisions, I can still tell someone you know, and all of my friends got the holly lesson on how to check my blood sugar and what to do. I was very much like, let me tell you about my diabetes. And here are my parents phone numbers in case some I've always been like that pretty much from the beginning.

Scott Benner 17:39
So you kind of got the people around you prepared that if there was a problem, you felt like they'd be able to help you with it.

Hawley 17:45
Somewhat at least enough. I told them when in doubt, you just call 911 That's what I always told them. If you're too nervous, and you don't want to do this, you just call 911. And you tell them I'm type one. Okay. And, and but I was always kind of the mom of the group. And so I tend to be the one, you know, holding hair back and who

Scott Benner 18:08
would have done that anyway. So you needed you. Yeah. That's interesting. So what did you What did you go to college for?

Hawley 18:18
What didn't I go to college for?

Scott Benner 18:20
I don't think that's how it's supposed to work. But okay, what did you go go for?

Hawley 18:26
Initially, I went for photojournalism. I was obsessed with National Geographic, and I went to a school that had a very good journalism school.

Scott Benner 18:36
Okay. And did you not get a degree in that? No. What what came next

Hawley 18:43
freshman year, I moved five and a half hours away, joined a sorority and moved to the Midwest. And it was basically I had never had to try very hard academically, to succeed. I also had structure built it built into my entire life. I was at the time undiagnosed ADHD. And I went and joined this sorority and met these wonderful people. And there were all of these performance things she could do singing, dancing, acting, all these philanthropic things. And I was just in heaven, and I kind of I didn't have any structure and I moved five and a half hours away. And I thought you have to understand I also had been going to college since I was a sophomore in high school. Because we didn't really have very many AP classes at the small town I was at. My mom found out about concurrent enrollment. And so I started taking college classes at our local university. And they weren't hard. And so I thought when I went away to school, but to a much more academic I'm at school, unbeknownst to me that I wouldn't have to try and could skip class and still make A's. And I just, you know, went down the rabbit hole of being so happy and involved. I was over involved and not working on my academics enough. And I learned a really hard lesson and, you know, essentially basically failed out because I developed insomnia. And because I had anxiety about sleeping, I was afraid I was going to die in my sleep, and no one would know No kidding. Yeah, and I just didn't sleep. And I would just stay up all night on like, the computer on AOL, not sleeping. And then there was a weird thing. You know, how your brain makes sense of things. And they don't really make sense. But at the time it did. Yeah. I felt safer sleeping during the day, because my mom would always call me and people would call me and I thought, if I don't answer, they'll realize something's wrong. And so I felt safer sleeping during the day and afraid to sleep at night that I would die. No one would know it until the next day, and then it would be too late. That

Scott Benner 21:23
did it. Did it ever occur to you to set up a structure the way you did with the drinking? My daughter Arden began wearing the Omni pod tubeless insulin pump on February 4 2009. That was 5093 days ago. Were another way to think of it 1697 pods ago. At that time, she was four years old. Hang out with me for a moment while I tell you more about the Omni pod Omni pod.com forward slash juice box. Today Arden is 18 and still wearing Omni pod back then there was one choice just one pod but today you have a decision to make. Do you want the Omni pod five, the first and only tubeless automated insulin delivery system to integrate with the Dexcom G six, because if you do, it's available right now for people with type one diabetes ages two years and older. The Omni pod five is an algorithm based pump that features smart adjust technology. That means that the Omni pod five is adjusting insulin delivery based on your customized target glucose that's helping you to protect against high and low blood sugars, both day and night. Automatically. Both the Omni pod five and the Omni pod dash are waterproof, you can wear them while you're playing sports swimming in the shower, the bathtub, anywhere really. That kind of freedom. Coupled with tubeless a tubeless pump, you understand it's not connected to anything. The controller is not connected to the pod, the pod is not connected to anything, you're wearing it on the body tube lessly no tubing to get caught on doorknobs or anywhere else that tubing with those other insulin pumps can get caught Omni pod.com forward slash juice box, that's where you go to find out more, you may be eligible for a free 30 day trial of the Omni pod dash, you should check that out too, when you get to my lake Omni pod.com forward slash juice box. So if you're looking for an insulin pump that is tubeless waterproof, and automated. You're looking for the Omni pod five. If you want to do it on your own, you're not looking for the automation, Omni pod dash for full safety risk information and free trial Terms and Conditions. Please also visit omnipod.com forward slash juicebox

Hawley 23:48
I think I think I just was horribly anxious and did not know what that word was back then. And would call my mom sometimes at two in the morning and bless her she answer every time and I did. I don't even know what that structure would have looked like I think I didn't. I had taken care of myself from the beginning. And I didn't know to set something up to create a safety net for that scenario.

Scott Benner 24:24
That makes sense to me. I mean before the technology and everything I was just wondering if you've like ever told somebody like look, I'm scared to sleep so you know for a week would you just call me at a certain time wake me up and or set an alarm and wake yourself up? Or just unreasonable anxiety nature of the whole thing just put you in a position where you're like I just would be easier not to sleep.

Hawley 24:46
I think I was ashamed. Probably no one really knew except for a girl who eventually a friend you ended up moving in with me. That was part of the problem is that I lived off campus as a freshman our incoming class was so huge, they didn't have enough dorm rooms. So I ended up living off campus, a fair aways away by myself, with no one really around. And so it got better when my friend moved in. She would wake up sometimes and they have you slept? And I, I'd be like, No.

Scott Benner 25:22
And where did that? Where did this fear come from? Holly did? Did you have a problem? Or were you just worried that there was going to be one? Because you weren't worried about getting drunk? And and having type one. But you were worried about sleeping and having a tight bond?

Hawley 25:37
I think it's because it felt out of my control, because I'm not awake to know how I feel. So how will I know I'm low? And what if I go low? And instead of waking up? I don't wake up. Okay.

Scott Benner 25:56
That's all listen, I'm just asking questions. But I mean, I see what you're getting at. And so how long did that go on for? Because you can't not sleep forever?

Hawley 26:05
I don't know. It was pretty bad. But I mean, I was sleeping during the day, but I would sleep erratically

Scott Benner 26:12
and better. Yes, during the day.

Hawley 26:15
Yeah. Well, that's why I failed out. Because I mean, I was missing a lot of class.

Scott Benner 26:21
I'm sorry. It's not funny at all, but it is. Yeah,

Hawley 26:25
I mean, looking back on it. It was a lot of it also was just not realizing the whole ADHD thing and kind of not having a good concept of consequences. And not realizing that I couldn't always just go in and make an A on a test without studying or, you know, a lot of that was having to realize that this college was a different academic experience for me. And I was actually going to have to try, and I had never had to develop study habits.

Scott Benner 27:02
Okay, it just everything always worked out for you until you got to this scenario where suddenly nothing was working out.

Hawley 27:09
Yes. Except, yeah, yeah. Except

Scott Benner 27:11
for Well, well, you also said here that you had anxiety around that, did you ever get treated for the anxiety or talk to anybody about the anxiety?

Hawley 27:21
I brought up some of this stuff at from a young age. I brought up concerns. And I think maybe generationally that my mom had a lot of distrust for mental health professionals, I think that was pretty common. You know, for her generation, there was a lot of the like, life is hard. You just got to buck up and make it work. Okay, no, I kept, and I brought up these concerns throughout life. And eventually, it took until I was older. And I found out I went back to school, I left that school transferred to a back home, my health got pretty bad, my mental and physical health as far as you know, not in a good place. And my specialist was at the Children's Hospital, in Little Rock. So that five and a half hours home three and a half hours down to the Children's Hospital. And I couldn't find a doctor, I liked up where I was. My parents, you know, asked if I wanted to come home to be closer to my doctor. And it felt like the right choice because I needed more support. And so I came back and went back to school there locally, and found out about the psychology clinic on campus. And it was a really low cost. And so I went there. But but no one really, again, I didn't have the right words, and my mom just didn't really see the benefit and talking to someone and kind of just thought if I put my nose down, like why was I having? Why was I having so much of a hard time I was smart. Just get your degree and get it over with but it just kept not working. And eventually, I felt like this doesn't make any sense. I am smart. Why do I keep failing and I noticed a cycle of not sleeping trouble sleeping. You know, there was drinking going out. And it just was cyclical, but it kind of came down to the part in part because the ADHD, I just didn't know how to manage every thing. Yeah. And finally, I did go to that psychology clinic and had official testing done and was diagnosed but not until by this point. I've been added in and out of school and I was like 28.

Scott Benner 30:03
Wow. Okay, were you how are you supporting yourself? Well, my parents

Hawley 30:07
were extremely supportive. They believed in me and probably honestly enabled me. But I also worked like five jobs at one point. You know, I was bartending at two to two different places. I worked at an animal hospital. I also did private babysitting nanny, and I've always loved childcare. I worked really hard. You know, so it's kind of a mix.

Scott Benner 30:35
Yeah. So there's just a whole bunch going on. Listen, you have something here that I don't quite understand. You know, I could talk about the mental health diagnosis, undiagnosed, ADHD and autism, are you are you autistic.

Hawley 30:49
So I don't have an official diagnosis. I'm self diagnosed my I have been, I would call it clinically, like couched diagnosed by a therapist. I haven't taken any official assessments. And I'm not sure I'm going to, because that has ramifications as well. But my daughter who's 10 has been in therapy since she was three. And, as is very common, I'm learning for mothers, as they are helping their children get the support and services they need. And they they go down that research tunnel to support their child, they start relating to a lot of things and realize that they're looking in a little mini mirror. And so my daughter is on a waitlist, the place here that does assessments, there's, you know, months long, like 910 months to get in to be assessed. She most likely has what they call pathological demand avoidance. Here in the US, a lot of kids get diagnosed with oppositional defiant disorder, which is something she's been diagnosed with, but doesn't have. She has PDA which is like a under the umbrella of autism. It's a really interesting, it's a cat at the they use it as a diagnostic criteria in the UK. We don't have it here. But what does it mean? Pathological demand avoidance, like, what does that what does that?

Scott Benner 32:25
Yeah, what does it translate to for her behavior?

Hawley 32:28
So she has a very high drive for autonomy. And she has, sorry, I had an alert go off, you're fine. She is demand avoidant, but is very bright and capable. They're frequently seen as manipulative and, like argumentative, because they really want to avoid basic demands, like teeth brushing hygiene, when even just asking a question feel like a demand. And so there's all of this opposition ality, but it's usually sometimes creatively addressed. It also means she has like, she really sees herself as someone who should have exactly the same rights as an adult and doesn't understand, like, why kids don't have the same freedom as adults. And to be fair, she has the right a lot of the time. I mean, like, but yeah, so it's,

Scott Benner 33:35
like a real world example of it happening. When's the last time you've you? Did it happen? You thought, Oh, this is that.

Hawley 33:43
So I'm learning, the more I learn about it. I'm learning. You learn to identify, and I'm still working on that. But like, eating is really a struggle, and the demand around making food choices and even like restaurants, we have many of her meltdowns happen in the car, like you've already got the stimulus of being in the car transitions are hard. And then now we need to make a choice. And so if it if it can't, it's like, sometimes she'll just completely ignore me. Because she doesn't want to answer the question because she doesn't want to make the choice. She's having anxiety about making the choice. And then she goes from kind of avoidant right to them, her fight or flight kicks in, and she suddenly seems kind of mean. And then I realize she's near meltdown, and she might burst into tears and start crying and saying like, I don't know, I'm just so hungry. I can't think straight. I don't want to make a choice. And you just have to, like, it's um, I don't I don't know, there's, there's, I don't want to say nuance that, like, I'm still learning to identify it. And it's complicated because she's so good at masking and appearing as if everything is okay. I'm still taken aback sometimes by a meltdown, because I don't realize she's been stressed. And I missed her cues. And, and then we're full blown meltdown. Like, yeah, so

Scott Benner 35:37
how frequent? Are they?

Hawley 35:40
Sorry, I'm like, No, you're fine. I'm managing emotions here. But you're just she. So we actually just decided to homeschool. She went back to school for three days after winter break. And she came home. And it's something we've talked about for a while. But she had a meltdown about going back to school and, like, ran me through what that experience was like for her. And I just was like, no, no, no more like, why are we? Why are we doing this, because when she's in school, every night, and every morning is preparing for bed and preparing for school are because that's when all the demands are right, get up, get ready, brush your teeth, put on clothes, you need to eat something, you've got to get dressed, you got to get up. And I have been in childcare, huge chunk of my life, and usually do so good with kids. And then I worked for a nonprofit, and did all of this Conscious Discipline training and early childhood training and education. And I just thought that there, what was wrong with me that I couldn't help my child and the way it could help these other children, and her meltdowns are less frequent. Now, she's on Prozac and on Ritalin, and it has been life altering for us, like life altering. Prior to that she was having self harm thoughts. And at like 677 Was she seven somewhere in I think maybe seven. But, you know, so it's way better than it was, but it's still somewhat frequent, which is why we're removing school, because I want to see if it helps,

Scott Benner 37:38
okay, does anything help this was mask

Hawley 37:42
lowering demands, like, so when she goes to school, she, what they call masks, right. So she knows how she's supposed to act. She knows she, she feels that she can't be herself at school, she told me, she told me she feels like a book. Like she needs to look pretty on the outside, but no one knows what's actually on the inside. So she goes, and she said that at school, you can't really have emotions, except for happy or calm, like you. They don't want you to be upset or sad, you know, and they just kind of want you to pretend like everything's okay, even if it's not. And then you have all the stimulus, you know, for her 504 accommodation, she asked if they could put a box in the room that she could go close herself into when she got overwhelmed. And, and so the demands of school, whether it be sensory, you know, or whatever, because it's not academically, you know, scoring is all high. It's, it's all the other social navigating, and following the all of that stuff. And so I'd pick her up, and she would, more than a typical child would just fall out and basically lose it. Because she had used all of her energy all day to do all the right things at school. Just since she's been home, I've seen more of a willingness to help around the home, pick up after herself. She did self LED reading for an hour and a half, she normally would not do that. So I'm hoping that this is what helps that by taking her out of that environment that was causing her to be depleted every day that she has the reserves to then do other things. So that's my hope.

Scott Benner 39:51
Okay, is this a thing that you've seen change over time with her she gets older or no,

Hawley 39:57
I've known there was some thing going on again since she was about three, and it has changed for the better. But because because the more verbal she got, the more she learned through therapy and through us just really were working. And she has all the language now and the ability and because her brain is supported with that anxiety medicine, instead of just losing it like she might have before she can verbalize and say, I just can't. I you know, whatever it like whatever she she can verbalize sometimes prior to melting down so we can head off a meltdown. Because it versus before it might be she was just losing her mind. Sorry, that's not I shouldn't say it that way. But like, for me, it would feel like out of nowhere, why is my child you know, just having this huge thing. And now that I know what I know it, you know, it makes sense. But back then it didn't. And I would just be like what's wrong, you know? So, so there has been a change for the positive with with time.

Scott Benner 41:15
Do you have any of the issues that she has? Yeah. Yeah. Which ones?

Hawley 41:22
My parents used to say, you know, if you ever want a surefire way to get you know, Holly to to do something is to tell her she can't do it. So I definitely have opposition. ality right. Anxiety. And her and I both are very literal, and high justice thinkers, you know, high sense of fairness and justice, like the world not being fair, it's very difficult for us. We're both we both thing and like to perform and use that as a way to self regulate. You know, we have we have a lot of similarities. I'm still, I mean, heck, I'm 40. And I'm still figuring out, I just feel like I'm just learning about myself some of these things.

Scott Benner 42:25
Now. Does it impact your life? Does it impede your adult life?

Hawley 42:29
Yes. I mean, yes, and yes, and no, yes. Okay. Yeah, I mean, I mean, I look back and think, oh, my gosh, what would life have been like, if I'd known from the get go? I, you know, like, I'm on Ritalin now and Prozac. My, my daughter did the gene site testing where they test for which medicines may have, you know, interactions with the, with her body. And I've had poor response to most meds throughout my life. I've tried lots of different antidepressants, etc. And so I thought, well, she's half me, so maybe that the same medicine might work for me and guess what they do? So I'm now on Prozac and Ritalin and they've been helpful.

Scott Benner 43:29
Good before them, what an after them what? For you. Before them you felt like fill in the blank soon.

Hawley 43:38
Okay. All right before Prozac. I didn't realize the amount of anxiety I was having, because I had always had it. So I thought that was just what it felt like to be alive. Okay. After a specific example, pet sitting in a home, my daughter put a hot, slightly damp paper plate on a dark table and made a white stain. And, sure, normally, I think I would have had, like, my heart would have started racing, and I would have frantically Googled how to fix it. And instead, I looked at it, and I was like, Uh, I know, I can figure out how to fix that. I'll get to it. And then like, two days later, I did Google it, and then I fixed it. But before it would have been, like, panic thoughts of the client wanting to fire me, they're gonna leave a Google review. They're gonna, you know, never whatever, and we've ruined their table and how much is that table and I would have just spun into all these. Now this would be quiet and internal. Right? But, but it would have been rapid thoughts about all the things that the consequences and instead I just was able to look at it and be like, oh, and Oh, that safer stocks about we can figure it out. And if not, I have insurance, I'm insured and bonded, and it'll pay for a new table. And that would not have been the response before.

Scott Benner 45:11
Hey, real quick, what is the way to fix the steam rank on the table?

Hawley 45:14
So there were a couple of different options. I think I went with Magic Eraser lightly. And there were other ones that were like, you could like lay up cloth and iron, use an iron and it would evaporate it. I just went with a light buffing with a magic magic eraser and it brought the brought it right off. Interesting. And then I oil I avoided and clean the table very nicely. And it looks great. Look Good. Did you tell the people? No, I did not tell

Scott Benner 45:42
them what to do. Okay, so So by figuring out her stuff, you're helping yourself and figuring out your stuff as well. Yes, going back before you knew these things about yourself, you you have a list here to talk about diabetes with like intimate partners. So what are some of the things that you ran into in your earlier life?

Hawley 46:06
Oh, I think that was like after dark. I don't know if he wanted. I just I don't know exactly what you're hoping from this. But the first thing that comes to mind for me is that I. Now granted, I do think my brain is a little different. But so many women worry about their devices and their bodies, and, and, you know, sexual intimacy with partners. And that being, you know, not sexy. And anytime I've ever, because I wear my stuff on my arms visible all the time, you know, I just have never hidden it. And I've been on a pump since 2005, I believe. And I had a boyfriend and like, he didn't care and it didn't. Were there like the moments of Hang on, I need to disconnect and whatever. But he just, it didn't matter. And I've just always said, you know, like, if you're with sub, first of all, I think they care a lot less than you think they do. Because the you know, the sex is the golden boy. Right? And if you're having a sex, I don't think they care that you got a tube on your belly, they don't see me wearing a clown feet, I wouldn't care. They don't care, first of all your way giving them too much credit. And second of all, you know, if they do care about something like that, that is not a partner that you want in your life, correct? Yeah. And I just especially young women, I think, although really that's not fair. It's it's it's any but newly diagnosed is what I shouldn't say, worry about that. And you just that is something if I could just give them confidence to know that the partner that you want that you want to be with does not care. I wish they could really know that in their heart because it breaks my heart when women worry about that.

Scott Benner 48:09
Anybody I saw on the private Facebook group, just recently, a man asked the same questions, was very worried that a woman wouldn't love him because he had diabetes, and talked about all the number of these different things. Yeah, I think I think maybe it's something anybody might feel so well. It's nice to to share that. That. That you so did you find somebody that didn't care long term? Or? I mean, you're a single parent, right? How did that all work out?

Hawley 48:37
Well, none of my boyfriend's have ever cared. I will i i will say I have figured out like, what is my blood sugar? Hang on just a

Scott Benner 48:50
little jittery? Am I making your blood sugar go up or down?

Hawley 48:53
No, I'm 140 straight across. So

Scott Benner 48:59
difficult to talk about this stuff where you

Hawley 49:02
know, I've just I think caffeine is kicking in because I've made a cup of coffee before thing. But sometimes caffeine jitters can feel a little bit like am I dipping down for me? Like if I'm dropping fast, that kind of food. Caffeine can because I haven't caffeine on an on an empty stomach. So those two things can feel a little similar. Gotcha. But no, it's not difficult. At least not so far. The other thing with you know, I have experienced like intimate partner domestic violence and I diabetes will really anything can be used against you but like I definitely just wanted to mention that like anyone making you feel sad about things out of your control that have to do with your chronic illness or your health. Like they're, they're not coming from a good place, like, like, because I luckily never had anyone and never, he never withheld access to medicine, he never like that. It's very odd how these relationships can be really wonderful. Like, you know, 80% great, but then the 20% is really, really bad, you know. And that kind of the tricky thing about them and why you get stuck in them sometimes for a while, is that there's a lot of good sometimes. But there there are things like even someone who like if you need help, and you need someone to bring you something because your blood sugar's low, and they're unwilling to walk down the stairs and get that and they make you feel like bad about putting that on them that you needed help to get, you know, to get something that's that's a flag. So just, you know, pay attention to those things, and how they make you feel about it. That's that's kind of the the I think that's why I put intimate partner stuff because I have had, yeah, some of that.

Scott Benner 51:16
Have you had any issues? Or I guess that's not the right way to ask the question. Like, what what's your approach been with intimacy since you had a mastectomy? Does that change things?

Hawley 51:28
Not really. It's again, ladies. I can't say no man. Not having nipples is not a deterrent from getting laid. They don't care. I have Barbie boobs. There are no nipples. They don't care. Self Care.

Scott Benner 51:48
Holly, are you here to say the vagina is really the important part.

Hawley 51:52
I I'm gonna say for a lot at this seems to be the important part. It's funny. Right? The I just, I mean, I'm covered in scars, and I feel like a bionic lady. I've got a port in my top of my chest area. And I've got, you know, two devices strapped onto me all the time. And, you know, like, it just doesn't matter. It really doesn't. And is your death

Scott Benner 52:25
is your is your port for the for the cancer still?

Hawley 52:29
Yeah, so one of my friends had breast cancer about I want to say two years prior to me, and she had said that she held on to her port, because post treatment, she actually ended up using it quite a bit for different things, fluid and some other stuff. And she said, she had decided to leave it in until the five year mark. And when I had my port placement, it was out of all the surgeries, it was very painful. For me, it was very, I don't know why. But it was horrible. And I also had had so many surgeries, I was just burnt out on having surgeries. They said as long as I do port flushes that I can leave it in as long as I want. And I tend to suffer with I get dehydrated just really easily. I don't really know why but I do. And so the port has actually been helpful. My oncologist is wonderful shout out to Dr. tribe. And then he will just call me in a bag of fluids. And let me go in and I can just go to the infusion suite and get fluids and it's been I wish that was more accessible to more people because as a diabetic that has been hugely valuable for me.

Scott Benner 53:52
You're talking just about a saline like to get hydrated or other things.

Hawley 53:56
No, just just usually, you know, failing. Whatever. Whatever. Yeah. Okay.

Scott Benner 54:04
Yeah. Your your, your list of things. You sent me an email, it says after dark or whatever. And like your list of things on here are fascinating. Like I feel like we would make seven left turns but I kind of want to go through a couple of them more quickly. Is that Is that okay? Absolutely. Go ahead. What does this mean running for office?

Hawley 54:24
I ran for state public office.

Scott Benner 54:27
Did you get elected?

Hawley 54:29
I did not but but in a red state. I lost by a lot less than other people.

Scott Benner 54:39
What was the thing that made you want to run for what office did you run for and what made you want to do it?

Hawley 54:45
I ran for state representative and district Ada and I will so I was putting myself back through school again. In right, this time with a child as a single parent, and I experienced God, when was that I think I had my daughter. And right around when I had my daughter's when the Affordable Health Care Act passed, okay, I was able to apply for insurance, it took forever, but I was covered. I was very lucky that my parents paid an exorbitant amount of money to help me have insurance coverage until that point. Okay, so let me just say that the privilege that but so since then, kind of like post baby is when I've been kind of on my own, shall we say, right, though, 10 years, I had to navigate what applying for Medicaid and the Affordable Health Care Act and snap, which is like the Supplemental Nutritional Assistance Program here in the state of Arkansas. And I just as a person who's very efficient and likes things to be very functional, I was completely confused by how horrible the system was for people to get what they needed. Meaning like insurance coverage or whatever, just like things like, Okay, well, I'm pretty bright. And the what's the average literacy, you know, level for the state of Arkansas something like eighth grade or something? Well, it's, it's pretty low. Okay. And so they're sending out forms that are so purposefully obtuse, that I was, like, thin taking pictures and sending them and being like, read this, what does this mean to you? You know, so to me, it felt like a trap. And I thought, if I'm struggling this much, like, and I have, you know, post secondary education and a high reading comprehension level, how are they expecting your average, just your average Joe? To navigate? I don't know. So I started there. And then I won't go into politics. But then some other things happened that made me feel like we needed people who could see both sides of a situation and could really listened to people and make choices that were rational and based on science, and you know, and I kept looking around going, who can I support? Who's going to step up that I can support? And, you know, you realized at some point that if you want, if you want someone up there like you, sometimes you have to point the finger at yourself and step up and go for it?

Scott Benner 57:51
Well, I want to tell you the highest literacy rate looks like it stands with New Hampshire, and 94.2%, California and the lowest 76.9. And the truth is, is that Arkansas doesn't even fall in the top in the bottom 10. So hold on one second, but it seems like about one in every five people is below below the line of being considered literate. Generally speaking, at 6%, let me so your real concern was just for people who were being presented with things that couldn't, couldn't make enough sense of them to make a good decision for themselves.

Hawley 58:32
Yeah, I mean, that was one access to health care for me. Access to health care was hugely important to me. And I felt like people should have that they should have that. And that's, you know, I ended up working for a nonprofit where I helped people apply for those benefits, and I was able to use my own experience. And then you add in, you know, English as a second language barriers and poverty barriers, and just all sorts of things that you realize are there in the community. And, like, it just was absurd to look at the members of our state legislature that so many of them are so far removed from the average arkansan and the life that they were living like me, that they they couldn't fathom those experiences, because they either never experienced them or had been so long since they had it wasn't real to them anymore. It didn't feel real.

Scott Benner 59:38
What do you do to run for state legislator, like you have to like, you have to get enough for like signatures right on a petition and then you know, how do you run How do you run them? What is that you

Hawley 59:50
five to run you? You decide to run and then you know you declare whatever party you're gonna run for you probably reach out to your County, you know, party committee and let them know you're interested in running, you have to be registered with them, you know. And then if there's another person who's of the same party you are, you would primary against them, you have to file you have to fundraise a filing fee in the state of Arkansas, different states are different. But like, in where I was, no one had run under the party I was under for I forget how many years so the filing fee was lower, because they were trying to encourage someone to run right. So you file go down to the Capitol, and there's filing day and you turn in your paperwork and sign all the official documents and and then you are an official candidate for your

Scott Benner 1:00:45
door or you do something online? How do you reach people?

Hawley 1:00:49
Oh, do you mean on filing day or

Scott Benner 1:00:54
while you're running? You're trying to get people to, to be interested in what you're saying? How do you get to them?

Hawley 1:00:59
Well, that's entire people's jobs to do field management, campaign management, digital marketing and outreach. So essentially, you know, so my degree is communication, right. And that's what I ended up doing. Because I just find people fascinating and communication fascinating. Essentially, you make a plan. And if you're lucky, you have some resources and support from your county party or state party that tell you maybe some avenues to do that. You can hire campaigns man and campaign manager, you know, with your own money if you can sell fund, but if not, you have to campaign like fine, like raise enough to pay your campaign manager. And I didn't have any money. So I paid for mine by fundraising, which is essentially cold calling people you know, and asking for donations or reaching out to people through networking and asking if they'd support your campaign. And you use that money to run a campaign that ideally reaches the voters who you most need to reach and you know that through basically data, mining data and finding the voters that you need. So you have you have canvassing, actually door knocking, you have print mail, digital write outreach, you also have social media outreach. And then in person outreach, you do, and you know, and then you're also going to be hopefully doing interviews with local media in some way. So it's a whole thing. It's a whole thing.

Scott Benner 1:02:35
Interesting. That's very interesting.

Hawley 1:02:38
It was it was a wonderful learning experience.

Scott Benner 1:02:40
No, really, it sounds kind of incredible. I'm going to ask you, if there's anything we haven't talked about, that you want to talk about?

Hawley 1:02:48
I think, you know, we didn't we started to talk about drinking and then kind of went away from it. Yeah. Well,

Scott Benner 1:02:53
after drinking, you got where you said you had you were surrounded by drugs. Were you doing them?

Hawley 1:02:59
No, not really. I'm afraid of most of them. You know, I was a bartender and lived like a bartender lifestar style for many years. And, you know, was a smoker, I smoked and, you know, have quit and started and quit and started and, you know, I just, again, think diabetes, there's so much shame around what you're not supposed to do. And I think that's such a heavy thing to carry. With drinking. I guess specifically, I wanted, you know, people to know that they're in there. I think it's a lot more known now. Because we have peer sharing, like like in your group, right? The Facebook group, if you're not in the Facebook group, shout out go get in the Facebook group, but like that peer to peer sharing that is there. Now we didn't have that. Like I only knew two other three, three other diabetics maybe growing up, or? Yeah, I mean, you know, that was it. That were around my age. And so everything I did was kind of like, okay, I noticed when I drained my blood sugar trends low after I stopped drinking and like go to bed and then you know, that was on MDI, well, now then you have the pump in there, and it's like, okay, so I'm going to turn my Basal down by 30% from 2am to 6am. While I'm sleeping and because i You don't anyway, so like, there are definitely things you can do. But you need to be safe in trialing and to see what works for your body because everyone responds to different alcohols differently. And I also really encourage you to talk to your bartenders at the bartender. You know, like I always if I'm going in, I make friends with the bar Our tenders and I let I want you to know they can be on your team. Not I mean, I tell them I'm diabetic, I let them know, like, this is, you know, this doesn't happen to me, but I've never had a seizure. But if I did, this is what you should do. You know, and I and I, and I do that. And I think if you're young, like, don't be afraid to just go and mention that because for me, it's like, you're better off running over and letting them know that because that also means that when my blood sugar did go low, that I could walk up and say something, and when I just needed a half a cup of orange juice, they just gave me a half a cup of orange juice. And we're like, here you go, you know, and they they believe you when you need help, because you've already told them that before your four sheets to the wind, whatever.

Scott Benner 1:06:00
So tell, did you do this for people when you were attending bar? Did nobody ever asked you?

Hawley 1:06:06
Meaning? No, I don't think I think I did have some people because again, once I started wearing a deck calm, it was more visible. But that happened later. I don't know. I can't remember I did definitely give someone who said they were hypoglycemic or excuse before, but I don't think I've ever had another type one come up. But I did save one gal who was type one who I knew loosely. And I walked into a bathroom and she was basically hugging a toilet had a ramshackle TR on and it was her 21st birthday. And her friends came in and they were like, oh my god, are you still throwing up and and I said, Hey, you know, She's diabetic. Have you guys checked her blood sugar? Because I knew her. I knew her prior. So I knew she was diabetic. And they said, Well, we've been given her juice. And I was like, Well, did you check her blood sugar? Because if it's high, you don't need to be given her juice. Like what kind of shots has she been taking, like sweet shots are straight, like what? And so I helped prick her finger. And the bodyguard wanted to carry her out. And he didn't want me to do anything like on premises. And I told him to back off, and that I was going to check her blood sugar at least before he tried to move or anywhere. And it was like 480 You know, it was just like, sky high. And he wouldn't let me give her insulin on premises. And I think I helped them out to the car. And I said you guys need to they were all drunk. And none of them knew how to take care of her. And I said, you know, I'm not I think I gave her like a tiny Bolus, like how she was able to kind of talk to me and I gave her like a mini those, like, not a full dose. But, and I said someone needs to say with or whatever. And she's, she's fine. I've seen her since then. And she thanked me. But like, you know, that's why I say if your crew doesn't know what to do, then, I mean, there are consequences that can come with that. And that's, you know, drinking can be scary, but it can also be safe.

Scott Benner 1:08:29
Well, I appreciate you bringing all this up. I appreciate you coming on the show and sharing this you have had a fairly eclectic life for it not being very long. So funny. You're not that old. There's stuff on here I didn't get to. i i How do you describe how you're doing? I think this is how I kind of want to end like how do you feel like you're doing with your diabetes, for example?

Hawley 1:08:53
pretty phenomenal. Yeah. Okay. Like I have of all the health things that I managed. What's interesting is I thought I was not doing a good job. I went to see my endocrinologist and he had a med student in the room with him and I said oh my god, my blood sugar's have been horrible. He of course this was a onesie right so whatever. But so he shows the swivels the screen to the med student, and he says, This is what she thinks it's horrible. I mean, he says these are her last Awan seeds from the last however many, you know, polls, and the eyebrows go up on the student and I thought, Oh God, it's that bad. He laughed and he said no, like, you're great. You're, you know, I have always micromanaged my diabetes. And I'm like a manual micromanager, you know, bump bump and nudge bump and nudge all that stuff. Now I'm on the Omnipod five, and it has been a huge relief. I sleep much better. My I like the other day Hey, I think I got the highest time and range I've had which Yeah, which was like 88%. Time and range is terrific. But like, I think my average is probably more like high, high 70s. You know, low 80s is probably more, I don't know, what's your

Scott Benner 1:10:16
range that?

Hawley 1:10:17
I don't know what I have it at right now I change it sometimes, depending on how much mental energy I have. Okay, how much do I want my devices to yell at me today? You know? Yeah, I think I have it like between, like 180. And no, I haven't higher, I have it at 210. Because the other day I had ketones. And I just was sitting between 180 and 205. And I was at work and my thing kept going off. And I needed it to stop. And so I bumped it up, I'm going to change that back down. So I mess with mine a little bit. Because, you know, it really sucks the life out of you. Sometimes if you're trying to manage something, and it won't stop for me, especially I think probably with sensory issues. Having an alert going off becomes like near rage inducing. You just want to throw it across the room and like shut up. I know, I've already done all the things.

Scott Benner 1:11:15
But I've done all the things.

Hawley 1:11:20
I've already done all the things I know it's still at 180 Quit yelling at me. But in general, my diabetes is great. But it's also the thing that absolutely takes the most out of you, I think for just constant surveillance. You know, someone asked me about cancer, and I said, Oh, God, you know, type one diabetes, it was harder than cancer like, yeah, I could I could have died. But like, you know how many times you face death as a diabetic? Like just all the time? You know, so like, the cancer thing was scary. Yeah, that's terrifying. But like, you go through the horrible thing, and then you do the chemo. And yes, it's horrible, too. But in my mind, the burden of diabetes management was worse than that cancer experience.

Scott Benner 1:12:10
That's a interesting perspective. For sure.

Hawley 1:12:13
Well, it's lifelong. I mean, it's lifelong, right.

Scott Benner 1:12:16
Now, I take your point, I really do. And I appreciate you sharing all your perspectives, and helping me dig into this stuff with your daughter and yourself and, and shining some light on some things I don't know a lot of people really think about or have ever heard of so?

Hawley 1:12:32
Well, I still would, I would love for you and Arden to do an assessment to figure out your neurology. I'm highly curious and intrigued

Scott Benner 1:12:41
about me. Yeah. So what about me?

Hawley 1:12:44
When I listen to your episodes, and you talk with other people who are neurodivergent and have other things, it's funny, I lost my notes. Of course I did. Because I usually listen on roads when I'm driving. And so it's hard to, you know, whatever. But I, I've heard you say things and you said, well, doesn't everybody do that? And I'm like, No, Scott, everybody doesn't do that. So I am curious, like to see what kind of scoring you guys would have with things like that? Like what like what's like it like it like an official like ADHD autism assessment with like, you know, whether online or with whatever. I'm very curious. Do you remember the episode where you said, you didn't know why you were good at this? I forget who you were talking to. But you said, once we start rolling, I just can do it. And I feel like, I don't know, you have said several different things. What really resonated with me. And I've just been very curious to know, especially with Arden's unique sense of humor. But anyway, I will private business, I am super curious,

Scott Benner 1:13:53
listen, let me I'll share something with you. And we'll see if you think I'm making sense or not. I think that because of the, the, the the structure that is set up here, right, like I'm a, like a voice in your head. And there are so many episodes and we feel like we know each other. And I think people listen, and they think they know me. And I think that they take things that I hear and apply them to themselves sometimes, which I think is, is good. It's how it's how you set up a trust relationship. When it's only one way because honestly, you're speaking to me now. But prior to that, I've speak I've spoken to you a lot and you've never spoken to me. So I mean, if you have questions, you could ask them, anybody could come on and ask questions about me, but I I don't think I'm on the autism spectrum. I don't think I have ADHD. And but people say Oh, I you definitely have ADHD. Like I hear that from people all the time when you talk to them a little bit. They have ADHD and they think that they've heard something in me that relates to them and because As they have ADHD I have ADHD, that just sort of seems how it goes. Like, as I've done this for a while, I've also, you know, I'm trying to be humorous at times, right? I'm trying to keep it interesting, and things like that. So I say funny things, or I tried to say it's not funny things. You know, like, I don't know that somebody who would like make a pot, like I was listening to a podcast the other day. So I heard about this podcast, I don't want to be specific about who it was. And this person has a podcast, they were on somebody else's podcast, this is a big thing that podcasters do when they're trying to drive traffic to their podcasts. I don't do that. And I'm gonna sound like pompous for a second. I don't do that, because I don't need to drive traffic to my podcast. But I also don't do that, because I don't find other people's podcasts. Let me be clear, it's not that I've heard them and don't like them. I make a podcast that I would listen to. And there are not a lot of them that are like this. And in the space of diabetes, specifically, I don't think there's any, but I got interested for a second, I heard this person say that this one podcaster went on this other podcasters podcast, and they wanted to hear about it. And I start to listen. And it was painfully boring to me. And the host, clearly was reading from a list. Right? And they would it reminded me very much of watching the Tonight Show with like, you know, where the, the host is like, so I hear you've had an experience at the zoo. Holly, and you're and you're a you're a comedian, you go, Well, yeah. And then you start telling a joke about the zoo. And like, I set them up, and you knock them down, and I set them up. And I don't really have any questions. And I'm not really listening to what you're saying, I'm just waiting for you to finish the zoo story. So I can go to the second thing on my list and say something else, that puts you into your act a little bit. And that's what I was hearing. I was hearing this person had come on the show, they had clearly spoken beforehand, they had clearly written down a list of things to talk about. The host would say, you know, number one, I hear you had an incident at the zoo recently. And then the person being interviewed launched into a story that you could tell, she had told a million times. And then there was a pause. And then the host was like, Well, that was interesting. And I'm thinking to myself, No, it wasn't. And then they asked the next question. And then, and then they asked the next question. And then the the guest launched into another prepackaged story that I bet you they've told 1000 times to somebody. And it kept going on and on and on. No, no, it kept going on and on. And I thought, how could anyone listen to this? And then I realized that the podcast that they were on had already basically been discontinued. And I thought, oh, there's your answer. Nobody was listening to it. And then I thought, well, this is why my podcast doesn't fall into this category is because when you get on, I don't know who you are. And we're getting to know each other. And I'm interested, either I'm interested in what you're saying. And it makes me think to ask a question, or as you're talking, I think, well, this is really something I can't add to, and I let you talk. Sometimes people come on, and they're not good talkers, and I have to fill a little more for them. But that's pretty much it. But I don't know why I told you that other than to say, I don't plan this podcast, but I don't not plan this podcast because I have ADHD. I don't plan this podcast because it would suck if I did.

Hawley 1:18:33
No, yes. No. And that's not what you were saying. It's just where I went with it. Yes, I, I just have noticed. And I'd be interested, I would love it. If he would talk to someone, there's just a huge overlap and like auto immune, and, you know, sure, then this neurological stuff and inflammation. And I I love, I just appreciate so much that you're bringing people on and letting them talk about all these different things because they do so frequently overlap. And I think it's really important because like, the more you know, and configure out the better you can, you know, manage and improve your quality. You know, yeah, I

Scott Benner 1:19:13
1,000,000% agree with that. I think that's obvious. It's because it's what I do, but, but I do. I do think of this other part of it like for you say again, how

Hawley 1:19:23
old are you? 40

Scott Benner 1:19:24
Okay, I've spoken to you now for an hour and 22 minutes, you have done nothing that makes me think you're on the autism spectrum. And why and how's your life going? Is it okay? Are you do you have like some major impediment that you need to know? Like, like, what, what if you were What if you had autism? Would that change something for you?

Hawley 1:19:45
If so, the only So, as an autistic person for me, the biggest thing has been looking back at past experience and making sense of things that I couldn't explain before. And now make sense. And it also allows me to make changes about the choices I make in my life and allowing myself more grace with things where before I probably would have beat myself up about them, like, sorry, I'm getting emotional again, like, like, I'm learning that, you know, it's like, like, there's not something wrong with you. And that there's a reason you feel so strongly or did something in the past, you know, like, like, I was bullied pretty relentlessly, like, like, in and always feeling other, like different and, and going, I don't get it. I don't really look that different. I'm, I'm, I'm funny. I'm smart, like, I'm reasonably attractive. Why do I feel like nobody gets me like, it has helped me and is helping me understand my whole life. So it is very important to me to know it. Not that not that other people know it. I don't I don't need the official diagnosis. Because just learning what I've learned, has changed. Me and my life. I know.

Scott Benner 1:21:17
So I understand what you're saying. So let me ask you a follow up question. So if getting a diagnosis, for example, wouldn't change you moving forward? Right? It would give you context for looking back. But what if I just said to you, Holly, that's who you are. There's your context. Is that not okay?

Hawley 1:21:35
Can you expand on that Mr. Hawley, that's who you are. That's who you

Scott Benner 1:21:39
are, that this is who you are. And this is how you interacted with people. And it's how you felt when you had those interactions. And you had these experiences, and you thought to launch yourself into those experiences, because that's how your brain works. And so my question is, is that it feels like, and this is not directed at UCI, I never want to say this on the podcast, because I'm not directing it at you. I'm directing it at like society as a big picture. Everyone feels like they want to get diagnosed with something all of a sudden. Does that? No, did you notice that in culture right now.

Hawley 1:22:12
So it is, I think, I think that there has, because of things like tick tock and social media, it's not that everyone wants to get diagnosed, it's that there's a level of awareness that was not there prior. And people are just like, we relate with our diabetes, and we reach out and people seek support because of this diabetes diagnosis. You're you're drawn to other people who have similar experiences to you, whether you know it or not, that algorithm is working to do that, right. And so then you realize that those things that you didn't know are actually a thing with a label, and it suddenly makes sense. And so I don't think it's that there's a desire to have a label or to be diagnosed with something, I think it's that people are like, Oh, my God, I, I'm 40 years old, and I just realized, I've lived my whole life. And all of these things are intertwined. And they're making sense of themselves. And there's also the I mean, this has been coming for a while because I think mental health advocacy has been on the rise and more of an openness, about sharing about mental health. And so bit by bit as we're people lose this stigma and talk about it more, they're not just talking about mental health, they're talking about these other things. And so it's just that we're seeing the result of younger generations that are more comfortable talking about it, you know, doing that, and then it kind of like, I don't know, women didn't used to wear pants and to normalize wearing pants, you have to have a lot of people like wearing pants, and then and then it's normal and, like

Scott Benner 1:24:03
so. Okay, so let me let me keep going. Right? So have you ever been online and seen somebody like say something like, oh my god, I'm sorry, that's my ADHD. And you're like, you don't have ADHD, just something like took your attention for a second, or you know, somebody, you know, I have PTSD, and then you start talking to him about it, and they don't have PTSD. They just something bad happened to them once. And it feels like it's from my perspective, just from the outside looking in, or just being a, you know, an observer. I'm not saying everybody, I'm saying that it feels like people want to, like they want to have a reason for everything they are. My point is, is that if we isn't then that just normal, because if everybody's got a little ADHD and everybody's had something bad happened to them that you know, colors, how they move forward. And I mean, anxiety is an example like, anxiety is what keeps you alive, right? Like sometimes it's crippling. thing, but but everybody has some level of anxiety. So if everybody has this and everybody has that everybody has this, and I don't always feel like a boy. And like, if all that exists for everybody, then isn't that what normal is? If everybody feels that way?

Hawley 1:25:14
Well, what you describe to me is sounds like when someone who doesn't actually know what ADHD is, or they're being like they're throwing around a term like I have, oh, well, but I'm kind of OCD about cleaning. But they don't literally mean OCD, right? They know that that's like a misuse of a term, right? There's that. And then there's someone who's, like, for me, I have decided to be open about my stuff. And I tell people, like, hey, when we get off the phone, I'm gonna set a reminder to call you back about this tomorrow, because I have ADHD. And I'm also going to put it in my calendar. But if you don't hear from me, will you please touch base with me by five? So like, that's me communicating a specific thing I'm doing to prevent my ADHD from sabotaging something, and also set myself up for success. It's a coping tool, you know, it's a thing that I've done to improve my, my, my life, right. Yeah. So I don't know, I, I don't think it's, I think that it's not normal, whatever normal, whatever the hell that means. But I think that it is probably something that there's a much larger percent of the population that has it that like, or, but but has gone undiagnosed for a long time, you know, so we're just going to, it's going to seem like there's a lot more people, when in reality, it's just that they're just figuring it out.

Scott Benner 1:26:52
So are you. So I'm, I'm playing devil's advocate a little bit here. But I don't think we should get to the point where forgetting to return a phone call is a diagnosable disorder.

Hawley 1:27:05
No, but that, that is not that is not

Scott Benner 1:27:08
what you're saying, though, like you're saying that is completely possible for you to get distracted in a way that you will forget something that's very important. Yes, yes. That is, I'm gonna say something that you're gonna laugh at. You don't think that happens to everybody?

Hawley 1:27:23
No, I think that I think that what you have to look at is like, frequency, intensity, and like, is it negatively impacting your life in a real way? So like, everyone has, you know, everyone has anxiety, but how much is it negatively impacting their life? How is it impacting their ability to function, when you have, you know, when you might be a kind of forgetful person who occasionally Miss places their key, you know, but like, my, my ex, not my daughter's dad, but my recent ex boyfriend, who is still a very dear close friend, his was negatively impacting his life to the point where like, you know, he's we're getting forget lost, like, all multi times a day, car doors were being left open with a key in the door, like pots were being left on and the food was burning. Like, there's a, you have to look at severity of the impact and like frequency,

Scott Benner 1:28:26
definitely a spectrum of all this, all these things live on a spectrum. And, and obviously, if they're being I mean, if they're that significant, that they're impacting you, there's something you should probably try to do about it. I'm saying that in general, people are throwing themselves into, into into things constantly, like, like, oh, I have ADHD when you don't have it? Or you don't you mean, because you get distracted once in a while, and everyone gets distracted once? Well, that's not the same as somebody leaving their car door on, you know, five days a week leaving the burner on because they walk away and just don't think they come back. Those are obvious differences. But yeah, yes,

Hawley 1:29:04
I think I think those people don't understand that it's a it's an ignorance factor, that they just don't understand what that actually means. And they're misusing it, unfortunately. And it makes it you know,

Scott Benner 1:29:17
yeah, I'm cognitive of it, because a person brought it up to me one time that that said, Look, I have PTSD, like crippling, PTSD, and bothersome to me when I hear somebody say, because, you know, I don't know, they were around and some fireworks went off and they didn't realize it, and they're like, I have PTSD from the fireworks thing. Like, that's like not the same thing. And so, I don't know I'm always very interested in in this idea, and of just like social contagions to begin with, like things that get said so many times that people are like, Oh, that's happening to me. And then if they were assessed at Currently people would be like, No, that's not happening to you. Like, it's interesting how it just feels to me, not people who actually, I want to make sure Holly that I'm being clear, not people who actually are afflicted with these issues. But the rest of them. It sometimes it feels like people just really want to be special and belong to something, and will throw themselves in with things that are even not thought of as positive. Because I don't know, I don't know why Trust me, I have no idea. It's just an observation. So Well, I

Hawley 1:30:30
mean, desire for a sense of belonging is a pretty powerful thing. And I could totally see someone doing that. And it's just misguided. But I think when you like, so like, for me, it wasn't something that I was necessarily seeking or trying to do what happened because it was pushed in my face with my own kid, that I couldn't ignore it any longer. And, you know, so you're gonna, you're always gonna have all the assholes ruining it for everybody else. But we got to you know, that's I just think it's important to talk about and especially, because there are so many autoimmune overlays and gastrointestinal issues and these other things, that to have awareness about it. Not that it's everyone's going to have that there. But that, that, that it's important to have the awareness about it, because maybe it is something going on an impact in your life. And if you knew about it, it would improve, you know, your life today have that knowledge. I

Scott Benner 1:31:33
absolutely agree. I absolutely agree. Thank you. I just I appreciate you letting me play devil's advocate and ask a bigger question that I don't think really has an answer. I just think it's interesting to talk about.

Hawley 1:31:42
Yeah, well, I appreciate I really appreciate you doing the podcast. And and I know that you know that it's impactful and important, because we tell you that but it really is. It took me a while to listen, I did the Facebook group first. And that's very helpful. But the podcasts have actually been really nice, because it does give you a sense of less isolation and feeling like sometimes your body is your own worst enemy. And letting those people be heard and letting us hear them is just, it's I'm just really glad that you're doing it's

Scott Benner 1:32:18
my pleasure. It really is. Thank you. I appreciate you saying that very much. Yeah, I am. I really do. I think it's, I think it's something that people need. And I just didn't think it was there. And I seen other people try it. And like I said, I think that if it's not interesting, then and nobody listens to it, then it doesn't really exist. You don't I mean, you can't say like, I have a blog, if no one reads it. I mean, okay, it's there, but it's not actually doing the thing you want it to do. And I think there are a lot of entities right now who are saying, well, I'm offering this content, or I'm offering these conversations, and they're there to help people, but then a lot of them are not listable or interesting, or are discoverable. There's a lot of different reasons why people don't make it to content written, you know, video or audio, whatever. But it's nice that it's available. But if people aren't finding it and finding it, and then going, well, this is really interesting. And I'll tell someone else about this, then those things, just they die on the vine very quickly. And then nobody's nobody's been helped them.

Hawley 1:33:26
I also think it's it took me it took me a while to actually get around to utilizing the group and listening. Because first I was just in it. And then I actually, you know, so I think that that's, like you said there are different types of people that cycle through and some some always lurk, some are very active and then disappear, some etc, etc. I think being part of your group is something I hope on, you know, doing for a long time, because you do have everyone from experts to, you know, to just us right, and there's always new information and there's always even if even if it wasn't diabetes, it's nice because it is but the people sharing their stories is is interesting as well. So I've anyway, yeah, I

Scott Benner 1:34:20
agree. And I appreciate you saying thank you very much. Yeah,

Hawley 1:34:23
well, I'll let you go. I had to be at work at four so I gotta get ready for work I

Scott Benner 1:34:27
had to get out of here. I have to go buy dog food. My afternoon. It's not as interesting as yours. But I have like I said this is my third recording today. So I'm starting to hear my own voice and it's making me upset so

Hawley 1:34:40
you get a break the rest of the day off.

Scott Benner 1:34:44
I am taking the rest of the I'm not gonna think about this podcast again after I hit save after you and I are done talking so I'm definitely taking the night off. So hold on one second for me. Sure.

I want to thank Holly for coming on the show and sharing that terrific story with us. And I'd also like to thank Dexcom, makers of the Dexcom G six and G seven continuous glucose monitoring systems. dexcom.com forward slash juicebox. Let's not forget Omni pod. You want an omni pod dash, or an omni pod five Omni pod.com forward slash juice box when you use my links, you're supporting the podcast. So type it into a browser, Omni pod.com forward slash juice box. You can do it with your fingers. You could probably do it with your toes too, but probably easier with your fingers. Thank you so much for listening. I'll be back soon with another episode of The Juicebox Podcast.