Scott Benner 9/20/23 Scott Benner 9/20/23

#1005 Diabetes Pro Tip: Insulin Pumping

Remastered Diabetes Pro Tip: Insulin Pumping
Scott and Jenny Smith, CDE share insights on type 1 diabetes care

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DISCLAIMER: This text is the output of AI based transcribing from an audio recording. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors and should not be treated as an authoritative record. Nothing that you read here constitutes advice medical or otherwise. Always consult with a healthcare professional before making changes to a healthcare plan.

Scott Benner 0:04
Hello friends, and welcome to the diabetes Pro Tip series from the Juicebox Podcast. These episodes have been remastered for better sound quality by Rob at wrong way recording. When you need it done right, you choose wrong way, wrong way recording.com initially imagined by me as a 10 part series, the diabetes Pro Tip series has grown to 26 episodes. These episodes now exist in your audio player between Episode 1000 and episode 1025. They are also available online at diabetes pro tip.com, and juicebox podcast.com. This series features myself and Jennifer Smith. Jenny is a CD and a type one for over 35 years. This series was my attempt to bring together the management ideas found within the podcast in a way that would make it digestible and revisit double. It has been so incredibly popular that these 26 episodes are responsible for well over a half of a million downloads within the Juicebox Podcast. While you're listening please remember that nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise, always consult a physician before making any changes to your healthcare plan or becoming bold with insulin. This episode of The Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by assenza diabetes makers of the contour next gen blood glucose meter and they have an amazing offer for you. Right now at my link only contour next one.com forward slash juicebox free meter you can get an absolutely free contour next gen starter kit that's contour next.com forward slash juice box free meter. while supplies last US residents only. The remastered diabetes Pro Tip series from the Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by touched by type one. See all of the good work they're doing for people living with type one diabetes at touched by type one.org. And on their Instagram and Facebook pages. This show is sponsored today by the glucagon that my daughter carries, G voc hypo pen, find out more at G voc glucagon.com. Forward slash juicebox. If you're living with diabetes, or the caregiver of someone who is and you're looking for an online community of supportive people who understand, check out the Juicebox Podcast private Facebook group Juicebox Podcast type one diabetes, there are over 41,000 active members and we add 300 new members every week. There's a conversation happening right now that would interest you, inform you, or give you the opportunity to share something that you've learned Juicebox Podcast, type one diabetes on Facebook. And it's not just for type ones, any kind of diabetes, any way you're connected to it, you are invited to join this absolutely free and welcoming community. We are back talking about insulin pumps today. Awesome. And the idea of pumping in general not any specific pump, although we might go over the ones that are available at the moment. So we discussed in the MDI episode that it's tough to get an insulin pump right away, you'd have to be have great in insurance, you'd have to be able to get over the what do we want to call them roadblocks that some endo offices put up to you getting? Right getting in? It's on top. But But congratulations if you've gotten that far and you're thinking about getting an insulin pump. Why do you think? Well, do you think let me ask you, do you think pumping has advantages over MDI and if so, what are they?

Jennifer Smith, CDE 3:54
Yes, I mean, a broad a broad statement. Yes, there are advantages. I think there are pros and cons to everything. But there are a lot of pros. I think one of the biggest ones is precision in dosing. I mean, you know, from the standpoint of injections, we can dose accurately, like, quote accurately, to the half a unit with an injection, right? I mean, I've even got a couple of friends who still do MDI don't like pumping and, and they've sort of figured out how to get that quarter unit in an injection. But is that accurate? No, it's not like the pumped accuracy, you know, pumpkin, pumpkin, pumpkin get down to the point 05 Or the point 025 of a unit. That's, that's precise, that's miniscule, you know, and for the broad spectrum of people that need insulin in different doses, the very, very little to the adult who Who is very, very sensitive for whatever reason, that can be important. So,

Scott Benner 5:05
okay, and I agree, I think that when, especially when they're younger, I've used Mo, I've had moments with art and where it's a point one or a point to Bolus that can really move somebody and the, you know, obviously, the lower your body weight, the more that kind of precision makes incredible differences. I guess the con to that can be if you are so small, it's possible that it might be difficult to set your Basal rates up. Because if your Basal needs are that little in the beginning, you can do that I've seen people do all kinds of crazy stuff, like set a Basal rate on for one hour off for the next one, back and forth. And that's, there's a way to get through that. I think if you have a smaller child and you want to pump, there's a way to accomplish it.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 5:53
There is Yeah, absolutely. So precision, definitely. And then, you know, I, the icebergs that kind of pop up in your day. You know, you I know your strategy. And a lot of people strategy is kind of the navigation of blood sugar, right? And utilizing the smart tools on an insulin pump smart being things like the extended Bolus and the temporary Basal feature. You cannot do that with an injection. You just can't. And that is that's another huge pro pop.

Scott Benner 6:27
Yeah, I can't say I agree anymore. I am in full agreement. I didn't understand at all about pumping. When Arden was injecting, right. There were just a lot of words, I didn't understand people were talking about bolusing and all that. And what's that? What's an insulin to carb ratio? I have no idea. I know a little bit from objective, but it was so much more specific talking about with pumping ahead its own language. And I've mentioned before that as we were in Arden's pump class at at her children's hospital, and I recognized that insulin was going to be used, like fast acting insulin is going to be used as Basal insulin. Yep. And that I could turn it off and turn it back on and increase it and decrease it. I'm telling you angel saying like, light bulbs are going off, like everything happened. I was like, okay, immediately. Yes, please. I genuinely think that before you have a pump, and for a lot of people after you have it. People just believe the pump is a way to avoid injecting. And I want to I want to, as we do the overview about in some pumping today, I want to show them that it's just so much more than that. So it is

Jennifer Smith, CDE 7:34
yeah, absolutely. And I think another piece to definitely clear up, even for anybody who might be listening to these that doesn't necessarily interact or is a caregiver for somebody but with diabetes, but they've come across it because they just want information. A pump is not the magic, do it all. You don't plug it in, and it takes care of everything that is is not the case. And for those who might be newly diagnosed in our hearing oil pump is like the magic thing. It does all these ones. It does what you tell it to do. And it does it based on the parameters you set within the pump. Yeah, there's it's it's personal input is what makes the pump as beneficial as it can be. So you can then see that if you don't know what you're doing. It could be not that the best thing.

Scott Benner 8:29
Sometimes you hear people say I've had this pump for a month, and I'm thinking of going back because I think they have doing what I need. Yeah. And I think they had that expectation like, look, I bought the pump, I put it on why did my agency not go down? How come my spikes aren't going away? Why is my blood and in some cases, people's blood sugars get worse in the in the in the beginning because they don't get their basil setup correctly, right. Or, or I think for some people, your insulin needs change, sometimes greater or lesser, when you go from injecting the pumping

Jennifer Smith, CDE 9:02
because of the precision, especially if that Basal, sometimes with the imprecision of an injected Basal insulin, and the fact that it isn't based on your physiologic need and the change through the course of the day, that Basal insulin could be off via injection at a time when you need less insulin. And so things look like they're happening around a Bolus when it really isn't the Bolus is problem. It's the Basal. So getting that Basal set is huge. It's like the foundation of a house

Scott Benner 9:34
and the opposite as well to not instead of the Bolus is problem. You can't you can't give the Bolus credit. Sometimes Sometimes you have a lower stable blood sugar that you think you made this scrape Bolus off Bolus but but your 11 Me or your Lantis you have too much of it or it's just it's working stronger at that point or something like that. So when you switch to a pump, and you go to these more precise Basal rates, using a fast acting insulin in the background And then if you don't have that correct at that number, you don't you no longer have that sort of like, I don't know what to call it like when you inject Basal insulin, it's just sort of a is it a catch all? Is it a is it it's a blanket of insulin that you may or may not? Yeah, good way

Jennifer Smith, CDE 10:18
to think about it. It's kind of a blanket of insulin. But it's not a blanket that's always warm and cozy at the right places through the course of the day. I mean, I My example is, before I started pumping, I was using Lantis was my Basal insulin, and I took it in the evening, if I did not have a snack, when I went to bed after taking it, I could have bet a million dollars that I didn't have that I would have a low blood sugar between two and 3am.

Scott Benner 10:47
And that's because your new Basal insulin starts coming online, and it works.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 10:51
And it worked the way that it did, I needed less insulin at that time, but Lantis didn't know that Atlantis was like, Hey, you put me in here, I'm gonna get this, I'm gonna do my thing that I was supposed to be doing right. So I needed at that dose for the rest of the day. But I didn't need that dose for that action time of the morning. So that's

Scott Benner 11:10
our first kind of lesson here. With pumping when you get an insulin pump, your Basal rates need to be dialed in. And there's two things about that. The first thing is, and this of course, is not true for everybody. But I do meet a lot of people whose doctors under whelmed them with Basal insulin, when they put them on a pump i because they don't want to cause a low, they don't necessarily tell you that going out of the office or you don't expect it. And so you get hot, you get home, you're high all the time. And it doesn't ever occur to people that it's basil. So get on a pump, get the basil right, I think the next thing is done

Jennifer Smith, CDE 11:47
one comment about that as adjustment factor. And you mentioned it before insulin means may change going on a pump, we usually find give or take, we usually find that when you start on a pump, your Basal injected insulin dose in the pump will need to be about 10, sometimes 20% less than what you were injecting in your Basal dose. So let's say your Basal insulin is giving you 20 units a day via Lantus or levemir, to you know, to jail or whatever it might be 10% less than that is two units less, okay, so we would actually dose your basil in the pump on 18 units across that 24 hours versus 20 units. Because it's it seems to be that the body responds better to that one type of insulin or rapid and coming in at one precise point in the body all the time, rather than being injected like all over.

Scott Benner 12:47
So then it can really be either then you can you can get your pump set up with Basal insulin and find yourself high all the time and realize your Basal is not enough or, or too low or where you have to come in. So that is why doctors start that way. Because I guess more over the likelihood is you'll need less. But for the people who that's not true for it's the situation I described. Right? So what we're really saying is, you're not going to know until you know, but but figure it out, get it in there and figure it out. I also want to know what you think about multiple Basal rates in the beginning, because in my mind, I think you set one up, and then you start adjusting off of that one. Right?

Jennifer Smith, CDE 13:25
Agreed? Absolutely. Even when I started pumping, you know, as an adult, once there were finally pumps, like I'm ePad. So it wasn't about tubing. I wanted that pod. But when I started doing that, you know, I actually did I started on one solid Basal rate. And I was already an educator. So I knew about poems, I just, you know. But yeah, you have to test you have to evaluate and see what does that one salad basil? Where do I need it to be less? Where do I need it to be more right for how long?

Scott Benner 14:00
Yep, I think we're going to talk about the adjustments in our own little piece of this. So okay, so let's, we'll move on now to to the idea of bolusing. So I want everyone to understand that, that doctor, your doctor is going your pump trainer, whoever you talk to is going to do their best based off of what they know about you to set up an insulin to carb ratio in the pump. But it is incredibly important to know that that is a number that is not completely made up. But it is a guess on some level. And so if you're putting insulin in for a Bolus, and you just you say to yourself, Man, I counted these carbs 100% correctly, and it's telling me three units. But I used to eat this food on injections and I had to inject four units or two units or it was different in some way. I just think it's incredibly important to remember that your doctor just did the best they could putting that in there. And this becomes where sort of the next step of how people We'll get confused starting pumping, because things don't go the way they expect. And they never diagnose the idea that it's the it's the insulin. And I mean, this series is obviously, it's all about timing and amount, right? You're using the right amount at the right time. Their minds. I think Siri just heard me say something. Sorry, Siri wasn't for you. But it says, Hey, Siri, have it's obviously it's all about timing. Shut up, Siri. Oh, wait, sorry. My point is, is that you're our brains somehow focus on the idea of the pump, specifically and not and we forget about the insulin. So I got on a pump and something didn't go the way I wanted. There's something wrong with the pump. That's the LEAP you make. It's the it's, it's very likely the insulin. So you can't jump over the obvious answers to get to the other ones, then then we run into the problem that people don't want to make insulin adjustments in their pumps in the beginning. So for all of you listening, who are about to start pumping, or a noodle pumping, and you're seeing something in your heart, you know, isn't right. I would implore you not to sit around for three months waiting for your next endo appointment. Right? Okay. So if you're not, if your blood sugar's high, you probably have not enough insulin, it's possible that you know, you haven't timed it, right. But there's safe ways to make small adjustments to your insulin on your own. Right. And so and so. Would you talk to me about how you would How would you if someone called you and said, Hey, I don't know what to do. And you you looked at their graph and said, I think your Basal insulin needs to be turned up or turned down? What percentage do you tell them to move at the remastered diabetes Pro Tip series is sponsored by assenza diabetes makers of the contour next gen blood glucose meter, and they have a unique offer just for listeners of the Juicebox Podcast. If you're new to contour, you can get a free contour next gen starter kit by visiting this special link contour next one.com forward slash juice box free meter. When you use my link, you're going to get the same accurate meter that my daughter carries. Contour now next one.com forward slash juice box free meter head there right now and get yourself the starter kit. This free kit includes the contour next gen meter 10 test strips, 10 lancets, a lancing device control solution and a carry case. But most importantly, it includes an incredibly accurate and easy to use blood glucose meter. This contour meter has a bright light for nighttime viewing and easy to read screen, it fits well in your hand, and features Second Chance sampling, which can help you to avoid wasting strips. Every one of you has a blood glucose meter, you deserve an accurate one contour next one.com forward slash juice box free meter to get your absolutely free contour next gen starter kit sent right to your door. When it's time to get more strips, you can use my link and save time and money buying your contour next products from the convenience of your home, it's completely possible that you will pay less out of pocket in cash for your contour strips than you're paying now, through your insurance. Contour next one.com forward slash juice box for E meter go get yourself a free starter kit. while supplies last US residents only touched by type one has a wide array of resources and programs for people living with type one diabetes. When you visit touched by type one.org Go up to the top of the page where it says programs there you're gonna see all of the terrific things that touched by type one is doing and I mean, it's a lot type one, it's school, the D box program golfing for diabetes, dancing for diabetes, which is a terrific program, you just click on that to check that out. Both for cause their awareness campaigns and the annual conference that I've spoken at a number of years in a row. It's just amazing, just like touch by type one touched by type one.org or find them on Facebook and Instagram links in the show notes links at juicebox podcast.com To touch by type one and the other great sponsors that are supporting the remastering of the diabetes Pro Tip series touched by type one.org What percentage do you tell them to move at it depends

Jennifer Smith, CDE 19:41
on what the overall picture looks like you know if there are small if there are small, less aggressive looking changes to their blood sugar's but it's in a Basal only time period and you can tell that obviously something is wrong. We recommend making an adjustment If there's more than a 25 to 30 point shift up or down from a set blood sugar, so let's say if you're testing the overnight, you go to bed at this rock solid, you know, 102 blood sugar, but by you know, and that's 9pm. But by 1am, your blood sugar's at 201. That shouldn't happen on Basal insulin, that's there's something incorrect there. So, you know, with a shift like that, we would bump basil probably by like a point one in that time period to offset the incoming flux of or incoming need for extra insulin. Usually, if it's a smaller incremental change to blood sugar, you know, you're going from a blood sugar of 102 to 152, you probably don't need that much of a change. And so maybe more of like the point 05 In a rate, smaller increments to the point zero to five, which most of the pumps on the market can do, not all of them, but some of them. So that may be something that you play with, especially if you feel like you're pretty sensitive to small changes in dosing, then you may want to start smaller and make an adjustment up or down,

Scott Benner 21:11
right. And so again, it's a good place to point out that the numbers not important, because we can't tell from one person to another. And I'll give you an amazing anecdote about that I was with a group of people this past weekend, there was a college age kid there who in my best guess was 610, and must have weighed 230 pounds. And his Basal rate was lower than my daughter's who is five, six and weighs 125 pounds, my daughter is also growing, and you know, gets a period and things like that. So you can't, you can't reach out into the public into back to your doctrine. So just tell me how much to turn it off. You know, like, you have to pick an increment. That's not, that's not crazy, it's not dangerous. Obviously, you're not going to take 8.5 Basil and make it a one. You know, you're right, you'll try point six, you know, like, if you're, if you're a little high, try point six. And then if you do it for a few hours, and nothing's going on. I mean, try point seven like and you know, we might get to a point where you Oh, now I'm a little too low. And then again, I'll dial it back point six, five and, and make that decision on your own like, think it

Jennifer Smith, CDE 22:22
certainly communicate with your provider, if you want some assistance, saying, hey, you know, even calling your endo office, most often you get connected with a nurse, the nurse is then going to relay your message to the Endo, you might get a call back, hopefully 24 hours, maybe 48. Or, you know, whatever it might be, but at least you're acknowledging, hey, I'm seeing this issue. I'm making my adjustment because I'm the one living with diabetes 24/7. I'm just I'm telling you, so that if you've got any additional feedback,

Scott Benner 22:50
great, I'd love to hear it. Yeah. But you can't. You definitely can't do what happens to some people where you just freeze because I want you to really consider what we've been talking about what you've been listening to going back to your doctor four times a year, and saying, Hey, look at 90 days worth of my blood sugar's and adjust this and make it correct. It's just they're not guessing. But they're just doing their best and their best is limited because they're not with you. And so I know your that it's probably happened to you before you sit and you stare at these blood sugars. And you think, well, this isn't what I was told. But just remember, you're getting this machine and it needs to be dialed in. You just you have to get it right, you got to get it running, right so that you can start enjoying the benefits which are significant. Once you get it going. And I will say that I was one of those people who got a pump for my daughter when she was four years old. Oh my god, over 10 years ago. Wow. Yeah. And, and I slapped it on her. And then I stepped back and I looked at her blood sugar and I looked at her agency and I'm like, okay, just start going down. You know, like here comes Everybody get back this this this Oh, my gosh, back then this 8.9 A one C it's going to be magically lower. Well, it did go down a little bit. But not a lot. It only went down a little bit because I guess I was able to bumper insulin a little more. That's where we started right? Well, I guess a little more because back then if you missed on a Bolus, doing it again meant injecting again, and no one never wanted to do that. So you just waited and hoped and crossed your fingers right? But now I could give a little more in a little more but in honesty, just adding an insulin pump without understanding it did not bring Arden's a one seat down that that far.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 24:33
I think it's kind of like I mean, the adjustment is kind of like getting wheels aligned on a car. Right? I mean, if you have if you want to ride this straight line, you have to do these incremental adjustments so that you're not consistently like veering off the road.

Scott Benner 24:52
You got to rotate your tires. You need to get your your ball bearings all straightened down everything that was just the extent of my knowledge of cars. That's what You've heard but you want, you know the engine, I joke a little bit I understand. So people who really understand cars, there's tau in Canberra, there's these, these tiny adjustments that get made to your front wheels that keep your car moving straight. And it's the same situation. Those again, just like bumping and nudging blood sugars, these are tiny adjustments to get you where you want to be. And the difference between being 190 all day long and 90 all day long, could just be point one, a half a unit of a change, depending on your size and your weight, your needs, the tiniest amount. And just imagine that, you know, we talked about it all the time, if you if you don't have enough Basal insulin going when you Bolus, a lot of your Bolus is just replacing the Basal you don't have. And so

Jennifer Smith, CDE 25:46
that's why Bolus isn't there. You're wondering, well, why I didn't even eat at this point today. And what's happening here?

Scott Benner 25:54
Why is this happening now? And so so you need to get these things straightened out. Now. I guess moving on to the idea of bolusing. Yeah, before when you had your shots, you were counting your carbs, doing your thing sticking in your pan or your needle and pushing it in there and just hoping you know, hoping for the best right? You are now opening yourself up to an entire world of Pre-Bolus saying and and doing it with different and what Pre-Bolus Pre-Bolus boluses all the things you're pumped, you know, well, first of all, Pre-Bolus is not a setting. It's just the idea of putting in your insulin and giving it a head start over the food that you're about to eat right. But an extended Bolus. So we're talking right now it's 11am. And 40 minutes ago, Arden texted me and said lunch is soonish I want you to really hear that. She didn't say she didn't say in 10 minutes. Right? She didn't say 20 minutes from now she said soonish and I know based off of how this year is going at school, we're going to Pre-Bolus here. When you have diabetes and use insulin, low blood sugar can happen when you don't expect it. G voc hypo pan is a ready to use glucagon option that can treat very low blood sugar in adults and kids with diabetes ages two and above. Find out more go to G voc glucagon.com forward slash juicebox G voc shouldn't be used in patients with pheochromocytoma or insulinoma visit G voc glucagon.com/risk. And I thought about what was in her meal. There's not anything incredibly like simple sugary, that's going to spike her right away and she was 106 when we did this. So she'd been a little resistant towards the end of her period this week. We did a Temp Basal increase of 40% for an hour and a half. And so that takes Arden's Basal rate from 1.4 to whatever 40% More of that is for an hour and a half. And then I did a 11 and a half unit Bolus. We did 20% of it upfront and the balance over an hour. So 20, whatever 20% of 11 and a half and 11 and a half units is goes in when she pushes the button. The balance of that goes in incrementally over the next 60 minutes coming online and getting active along the way. And now it's 40 minutes later and Arden's blood sugar is stable and 90. And she probably started eating 20 minutes ago or so. I'm expecting the food to begin to impact her right now. Right right. And so we got we got momentum on our side for the insulin, we've got her going down. You know we've got that tug of war set up we've we've given you know, we've we're letting the insulin cheat. And we're going well, now, I'll tell you right now, if 20 minutes from now she starts curling back up. I might you know if there's any time if there's any extended Bolus left, I might cancel it and put it all in at once. If the extended Bolus is over, I'm gonna go I might have missed a little bit. There's all kinds of different adjustments you can make to change the timing and the amount of the insulin. I want you though to talk about first about extended boluses and I want you to talk about it the way I know I can't which is technically in smart play.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 29:19
I think you give very good description. I think the biggest thing to understand to begin with when with an extended Bolus is that all pumps can do them. They all term them or call them something a little bit different. And it really just kind of boils down to how you're telling the pump to give this this dose for a meal whether you want it all up front, meaning like you'd give an injection you get this whole normal amount of insulin deposited under the skin all at one time. That's normal and extended allows your pump to drip drip, drip drip almost like your basil is dripping all day but in an The time period you've defined whether it's 30 minutes an hour or three hours, you told the pump I want to deliver 11 units over the course of some now, and some in an hour time period. That's what we kind of refer to as a dual wave Bolus. Being you get some normal upfront, meaning a bump right now like an injection, and then the rest of the the meal like you said, 2080, right. 20% Now is the normal 80% over an hour. So your pump is now saying, Okay, I'm going to drip drip, drip drip drip this 80% in and by the end of an hour, that whole extra 80% will have been dripped in. But it's action time then is pushed out, because you didn't deliver it all right now that last pulse of insulin at end of our one still has now an active insulin time for whatever you have set in your pump, three hours, four hours, five hours out from that last active pulse. So I think that's the important thing to know about extended boluses some people first start to think of them as Okay, well, I'm going to get some insulin, but then three hours from now it's gonna give me the rest of my insulin. That's not how extends work. They always give some and extend some drip drip. Or you might want to say, for this meal, I'm eating a big ol plate of broccoli and a chicken breast. There's carb in that broccoli that you do have to count and cover. Is that broccoli going to hit you like white rice? No way. It certainly isn't. So a meal like that. You may say okay with these really low glycemic carbs. I'm going to extend the full Bolus, something we call a square Bolus, you take that meal that suggested as a Bolus, and you drip drip, drip the whole amount of it out over your designated time period. And there are different reasons for all of

Scott Benner 32:00
those. Yes, and you got to figure them out. And you can I was with a person eating low carb this past weekend, I Vicki and we sat down at a restaurant, she had a meal that you would expect had almost no carbs in it, but a ton of protein. She sat she ate it, she sat and ate it. We got in the car drove away. It's now 20 minutes or more past when the food was and she grabbed her PDM from around the pot and gave herself insulin. Because she does know she needs insulin for that protein. And but she didn't need it. If she would have Bolus and sat down or Pre-Bolus sat down, she would have gotten incredibly low. Yeah. And she it was amazing to see somebody figure that out. I was and I'm going to add what I learned about that to me like how the protein needs more later. Absolutely. It

Jennifer Smith, CDE 32:48
takes into the immune takes into the fact that we know these things from a set of rules. But I mean, the classic your diabetes may vary. Your diabetes bolusing strategy will vary. Well, yeah, not not me. It will vary. I mean, I my breakfast every morning, I've got a friend who eats the same exact breakfast after talking to me, she was like, Wow, that sounds awesome. I like it. I want to give it a try blah, blah, into them. Now she loves it her Bolus strategy for it. similar, but not 100% of what I do. It's different because physiologically, she's different. Yeah.

Scott Benner 33:28
And so if you've ever heard me speak live somewhere. There'll be a moment where someone in the audience asks the, you know, the question, how much how long, you know, and I go, I don't know, figure it out. You know, I

Jennifer Smith, CDE 33:41
think places there are some starting Oh, sure. Things. Yeah. It's like kind of like, you know, the How much do you adjust the basil up? Oh, point point. Oh, 5.1. It's a starting place, right? Sure. Give it a try. If it doesn't work. Okay. Next time you adjust different,

Scott Benner 33:57
right. And I'm more aggressive. Like when I adjust Basal rates, I adjust them like 30% of the time, because I'd rather cause a low and then back down from the low to find a level spot than to stay high for several days, I didn't nickel and dime the high, right? Because also because I feel like you're getting a more accurate depiction of what's happening. If you're using more insulin, when you're using less insulin than there could be resistance going on and maybe, you know, maybe in

Jennifer Smith, CDE 34:22
the field too, then that you have to correct and so you never really get a true picture of what does the Basal adjustment really just do because now I'm high and I want to correct and I'm not going to leave it Hi. So I don't understand what the Basal I know. I just know it's not enough,

Scott Benner 34:35
you'll get a look into my parenting style that way too. Whenever my children asked me something, I respond immediately with no, and then we work backwards from now. And so I sort of do the same thing with the innocent I slammed the insulin, and then I work backwards from there to find a level spot. I wanted to say about insulin action time. It's another idea of settings in your pump, right? So there's an amount of time that they, you know, insulin should work in your body, like how long from when you put it in to when it stops working. And you'll see people say all different kinds of numbers, you know, for hours, you know, it's different for me here and there. Same insulin, you know, they're using one kind of insulin. Some personal say, Well, my action time is four hours by x times three hours. Arden uses a Piedra, and her insulin action time in her pump is set at two hours. And so I have found that when you Bolus Arden that Bolus stops having any effect on her in by two hours. Wow. Most of the time. Some of the time now, I don't know how to tell you the difference. But most of the time, it's Yes. Last night it was now last night I couldn't get Arden's blood sugar to budge off of one ad, it didn't matter what I did, she had incredibly Karva, terrific afternoon. Like I said, she still has her period. And you know she's going along. Now there's a moment where I'm like pushing and pushing and pushing. And I'm finally that guy. This is enough, like this incident is going to start working eventually. And it did later at night after a hot shower. Her blood sugar started coming down and we had to catch it and it was hours and hours later. That doesn't make Ardens insulin action times six hours. Right? That's a specific situation. Most times insulin I put in now doesn't cause her to get low two hours later. Now keep in mind, insulin on board is calculated by the insulin action times set up in your pump. Am I right about that? Correct. Can you explain that for us, please? Yes.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 36:35
So insulin on board specifically uses your active insulin time that you have set in your pump. So for Arden, two hours, if she were to get a Bolus now for you know, at 11:07am. Two hours from now at 1:07pm, the pump would no longer identify active insulin on board from this Bolus, which means that if she chose to Bolus at 115, it's only going to factor in blood sugar and the carbs she tells it she's eating to give a Bolus suggestion. However, with in active insulin time, let's say, you know an hour from now somebody's birthday comes up and they bring a bagel, big old treat to school and she's like, Hey, Dad, I'm totally,

Scott Benner 37:24
I'm going to eat another 30 I'm gonna eat another 30 carbs over overtop of what we just Bolus for an hour ago.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 37:30
Exactly. But that was an hour ago. So your pump still assumes, hey, there's still insulin on board from this Bolus that she gave an hour ago, there's this much active insulin left. Important thing about iob is that you have to feed the pump information in order for it to consider iob information being blood sugar, and carbs. If carbs are a piece in the picture here, right? Because if you do not feed the pump, a blood sugar, it doesn't know the effect of the insulin on board that's still left. And to calculate the next Bolus correctly, it sees the insulin on board, but it may not be able to adjust because it doesn't have a pinpoint of glucose value to now say, okay, she was an hour ago at 82. Now she's at 179. That insulin on board that's left is coming into the picture but the pump also sees a higher blood sugar. So it's going to say, okay, she's high. She wants to eat this much more. This is how I'm going to calculate the Bolus despite there being active insulin left

Scott Benner 38:43
but in a situation where like for instance, now Arden's blood sugar's 111. Okay. And I'm seeing a curve up on her CGM, but her pomp right now if you test it right now say she didn't have a CGM she tested right now for that, you know, surprise treat an hour later. And and it says, Oh, your blood sugar's 111. You have all this insulin on board from the meal, go ahead and eat that you don't need insulin for this or you don't need you don't need as much insulin for that. That would be stalking. Now that would be okay. And that's a word that doctors are going to throw at you. And they're going to mean for it to scare you. And maybe maybe it should in the beginning. I'm not 100% Sure, but what they're going to tell you, you can't stack insulin because eventually it's going to it's going to catch up to you and it's going to make you low. I say to that. Yes. If you don't need the insulin, if you do need the insulin, it's not stalking it's bolusing. Knowing the difference is the is the trick, I guess it is to go back to I'm going to layman's terms a little bit more about insulin on board and action time if I can. So if you decide that your insulin action time is three hours and by you I mean the doctor sits down says that's is what it is for most of my kids this age, so I'm going to set it for three hours for you. But your insulin action time is actually less or more, then your pump is going to make decisions based off of that number. It doesn't make it right, I want to be clear to everybody, the pump doesn't have a magic sensor that's in you somewhere that knows that it's telling you the right thing it's making, it's making a static decision from a static number. That's not necessarily correct, it's probably a good guess, it probably won't hurt, you know, it's going to err you on the side of caution a lot. It's going to keep you from being, you know, from getting low.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 40:35
And I think that's a good, that's a it's a very good point to bring up. Because what we've actually found, especially in the community of people who are doing the do it yourself looping types of pumps, which is a whole nother broad topic, but I bring it up in this mainly because what we've found is that the action time of rapid acting insulin is actually beyond what most people have it set in their insulin pump. And the reason that we have it set for less time and an insulin pump, is because we inherently do not want to run high blood sugars. And so if we give the pump and active insulin time of three hours, when really that Bolus is probably lasting about four hours for us. What it means is that at three hours, and one minute after this Bolus was delivered, if your blood sugar is still high, your pump now no longer sees any active insulin and it can Bolus you more aggressively for the blood sugar that you now want to drive down. Right. Whereas if you had it set for four hours, at three hours in one minute, you were like I'm high, I want to Bolus to get this blood sugar down. Your pumps give me like, oh, let's be a little conservative here. Because you still have this like quarter of that last Bolus still working.

Scott Benner 41:57
If you have an omni pod, your pump is going to be completely self contained, it will adhere to your body, the insulin will be in there and all the smarts and everything and you'll use a wireless controller to tell it hey, I want you to change my Basal or put it a Bolus or something like that. All other pumps have tubing and an infusion set, right. So you'll have an infusion set that will put your cannula in tubing will run to the pump, and that pump will have its insulin in it, you'll need to keep that with you. It'll be clipped to somewhere, right. And that's

Jennifer Smith, CDE 42:29
a good point to make to about the difference Omni pod, the PDM does not have to be on your person for the pod to continue delivering. That's a big question that a lot of people have, well, I don't want to carry around this extra thing all the time. You don't have to once the pot has been told what to do. It does it as soon

Scott Benner 42:46
as it beeps and it recognizes the signal you're done. Actually you can walk away from if your insulin starts in like say you're putting in 10 units delivering right. As soon as it starts delivering, you could you could run to you could run across the state and your PDMP in your house and the insulin will keep delivering Yes. It's also important to talk about their about pumping in general is that to bathe or swim on a tube pump, you're going to have to disconnect to most of them for most right. So even in more aggressive like sports, for instance, like give, there's a lot of people who disconnect to go play soccer or football or something like that. With Omnipod you'll always be wearing it. I think to me, that's a huge point that made me want to do it. Because you always hear people say like, oh, I went to the beach and I got high. I get high at the beach. And I always think back to someone who was on the show. I think it was just a few episodes ago, where he said if you put a pencil in your back pocket, and then rob a bank pencils don't cause bank robbery. And, and so the beach doesn't make your blood sugar high, taking your insulin pump off major blood sugar high. Right, right, like that kind of an idea. So just understand that there's different ways to manage with different pumps. I'm not telling you which pump they get.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 44:07
And that's a lifestyle look, right. And that's the biggest thing when I work with people. They're always like, what what do you think is the best? There isn't a best, there's the best for me. Yep, there's the best for you. You need to take a look at you know the pros and the cons of all of the pumps. What are the what's the pump that has the most pros for your life 100% navigate your lifestyle your needs, you know an athlete, I've got a lot of athletes who really prefer Omnipod because of the tubeless piece I've worked with a lot of triathletes who really they need I mean from going from a swim into a bike into a run. They need something that's a seamless management then they're not having to clip in and pop in and reload and you know everything. So there. I think it takes a lot of examination of your lifestyle. Yeah,

Scott Benner 44:55
no, absolutely. There's no I would I would jokingly say that you know you I'm sure you think that I think you should get an omni pod. And probably if you ask me my personal opinion, I would say yes, right? Not just because they advertise on the show, but because ardency just wanted for 11 years. And it has been nothing but absolutely fantastic for us. But I completely agree with Jenny, you should decide what works best for you. You really have to do that. Not everyone's going to see the same pros and cons as everyone else.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 45:24
And all of the pumps despite delivery, and mechanism of driving insulin, they all do have some features that are different and may apply better to your lifestyle, then another brand.

Scott Benner 45:37
Absolutely. So. So again, figure it out for yourself, do your due diligence, do your homework. Yeah, I think the greatest thing about the on the pod might be is that they offer a demo, they'll send you one to your house and let you try it like that's where it and the other companies are at a loss, they can't really do that. Because of the way there's a setup

Jennifer Smith, CDE 45:55
very big and expensive. Let me just send you this. I'll send it back to

Scott Benner 45:59
you. Please, please give it back. And a couple of other ideas. And he's right, so what I was getting to whether you're using an omni pod, or you're using another one, there's going to be some adhesive of some sort, you know, a simple preparation, like we talked about back in the MDI episode. I think I don't over prep art and skin bright, clean skin.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 46:21
Dry without lotion or anything on it, you're good.

Scott Benner 46:24
Put it on, you could see. You know, if you have soreness with a pump, right, it shouldn't hurt. No, right? So it should not. So be careful. Like if you start if you have soreness that you know, I mean, after it first goes on, obviously, you know, it's not fun to have a hole poked in you. And that's going to be done by any one of these pumps. But an hour later, whatever it is, if it's hurt, so it's hard to bend your arm. Sometimes the cannula can hit a nerve, or muscle like looking up again. All of these companies will if you call them up and say, Look, I had to put it in an infusion set and it hurts so bad. I took it out. Can you send me another one? Generally speaking, they're their customer service is good, they will

Jennifer Smith, CDE 47:07
correct and that's it's really important because it can affect absorption at the site. If you've got a site that isn't it that's hurt, or you know, maybe getting infected or for some reason there's irritation under the site. If that site is bothering you, there, that's not good. Remove it, pop in a new one do something

Scott Benner 47:24
yeah, don't sit in pain. And that I think that's important. Tubing is something I don't completely understand i How much tubing do I need is it just as much to get me to where I want to store my pump?

Jennifer Smith, CDE 47:41
Correct. It's it's in that depends you know, tubing comes in many many different lengths for the tube pumps being of which there are only two on the on the market either tandem or Medtronic or the tube pumps that are available now, at least here in the States. So the tubing length depends on exactly where you're going to move that pump to and pop it in. If it's in a pocket, you may need short tubing 18 inches. If you're going some some of the guys I work with, you know where the shirt stays around their lower leg to keep their shirts tucked in, well they end up just clipping their pump down their leg and then they can easily lift up their pant leg to Bolus during the day. So if that's the case, you probably want 40 plus inches Oh tubing to kind of reading how tall you are. Right You know, if you're Shaq, you probably need like inches but yes

Scott Benner 48:34
and and the two pumps also when you go to put them on they have to be primed, which means that you have to fill all of that tubing with insulin rack before you can put it on the on the pod self Prime's so you when you know tubing, and there's no tubing. There's a tiny little cannula that that obviously goes under your skin and stays there. Yep. So, again, there you go. There's pros and cons with all of them. You know, I hear people say that. So Omni pod has a failsafe, right? If it gets around too much electrostatic electricity, and it and it affects the internals of it, it will shut down and ask you to write to change it. Yep. I've had it happen in 11 years, six or seven times, you know, it's happened. And people go well, that doesn't happen with a two pump and I'll say Well, yeah, and my daughter has also never walked past a drawer in the kitchen and gotten her tubing caught on it and yanked out her infusion set right that's the tube pump version of that to me like they all have something if you're looking for something right if you're looking for perfection. Don't Don't ask a machine to do anything.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 49:40
salutely and I think you know one even that might be going towards the tube pump potential need would be if for some reason, the angle of the cannula is a concern or an issue for you. That is one I would say potential drawback of Omnipod is that there is only one cannula When it comes on every pod, it's exactly the same cannula. And it goes in exactly the same angle for every single person, which may not again, your diabetes will vary because your body physiology may be very different. So you may need to choose a pump. Despite not wanting to being you may need to choose a pump. That's too because you need a different type of cannula or what's called infusion set. You may need something to go in at a 90 degree angle versus an angled, you know, you may need a steel cannula versus a plastic cannula for various body reasons. So there are a lot of considerations.

Scott Benner 50:37
Absolutely. But don't take, don't keep this in mind, no matter what pump you're thinking about. I know this is gonna sound a little dirty, but it's it ends up being true. Companies have salespeople, salespeople influence doctors, doctors get stuck prescribing things, the same poem right over and over, you walk into an office and say I want it on the pod and the guy goes, no, no, you want one of these? Trust me. You don't need to trust him. You know, you can say that you appreciate your input. But I'd really like to try the on the pod or vice versa. I don't want it on the pod. I really would like to try that. Eastland you can you can you can speak up for yourself, please, please do that. Absolutely do that. So at the very end of this I want to talk about about something that can't, it doesn't happen with injections that could happen with a pump, right. So as long as you inject your insulin with your injections, you remember to put in your Atlantis you'll ever mirror your true zebra, whatever it is. And you you know, remember to put in your insulin for your food or your high blood sugars. You're watching the needle go in your arm, you're pushing the button, you pull it away, you know the insulin is in there. With any insulin pump, the possibility could exist that your cannula could get bent, that your tubing could get kinked that the pump could I don't know, the batteries could die like like, you know, on the pot doesn't have batteries. And there's the but the other ones, there's mechanical,

Jennifer Smith, CDE 52:03
leave the house and totally forget that your reservoir only had five units and for the rest of the day, you actually needed 20 units. And now you have no incident you're

Scott Benner 52:12
and you're in trouble. Right? Right. So these are things that can happen when you try i We have a radius in my mind if I'm more than 30 minutes away from my house for any extended period of time. I bring insulin and another pump with us. The other day, we drove an hour and a half to something stayed there all day had all this extra diabetes supplies with us didn't need one of them. You know, most of the time you don't need it. But when it happens, it happens. Now, in 11 years, I'm happy to tell this story in 11 years, we've had one insulin delivery problem with Omnipod. And it wasn't the pump it was us. We changed a pump by sight. And it you know it was at a pool. Right so we put it on and I she got back in the water and I think the adhesive didn't have time to adhere and it loosened up a little bit and it pulled her cannula out through the course of a day right along July day of swimming. We got home her blood sugar was still fine now, was it still fine because the cannula was still in it hadn't worked its way out yet because she was so active during the day. She didn't need as much as I don't know. But what I can tell you is, is that overnight Arden's blood sugar started to skyrocket. And I kept bolusing. And it took me a while to figure out that my Bolus is weren't doing anything. That's not going to happen to you injecting, right and so is it is it I actually saw a person say the other day, I'm scared to get a pump because of that. And I think if that's why you're scared, I think you're worrying about things you don't need to worry about. But you do need to be aware of them. Correct, right? Your tube, tube kings, something happens, you're not getting insulin delivery, you're also don't have any slow acting insulin. And so when you lose your pump, you lose your slow and your fast acting, you can go from everything's right on to DKA. Pretty fast, quick.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 54:07
Exactly. Absolutely. And that's, it's a really good piece, you know, to discuss because it's one of the primary things when I work with starting somebody on a pump that we discuss, right in the pump training is the risk for DKA or the risk for a pump malfunction and how do you how do you navigate that without having such tremendously high blood sugars that then take forever to bring down because you're at such a deficit of insulin right? I mean, our our recommendations really are with a pump, an odd high blood sugar or now with the use of a CGM blood sugars that are like you said, just all of a sudden skyrocketing and there should be no reason for that skyrocket like you didn't go eat the whole Dairy Queen cake and just not Bolus for it right. There is something wrong you Bolus from the pump. If that initial Bolus doesn't start make a dent in that glucose within the next 30 to 60 minutes, you change everything out, you change the site, the tubing, the reservoir, the pod, whatever, you might even change the insulin, you know, especially if it's been a day at the beach and your insulin hasn't been kept change the insulin out really important

Scott Benner 55:17
I bail on in a pump site. As soon as, as soon as I know too, I will sometimes if I if I get stuck number, but it's not too high. Sometimes I'll inject a little bit. And if you inject instead you go, Oh my God, it started moving right away, maybe I'm gonna get off this pump site like a little sooner. And that's, you know, to just go over a couple of like ideas, you can't keep reusing the same site over and over again, they eventually become less effective. For reasons we talked about in other episodes, you have to understand that when you when you put in an insulin pump, you've you've a needle has poked a hole in you and left behind a piece of plastic in most cases, right. This plastic is a foreign body. It's an irritant, right, it's an irritant. I remember discussing with Aaron Kowalski from the JDRF, one time that he thinks one of the most ignored technologies for people with diabetes that we don't spend enough r&d time on is cannula, materials, and how to make them less irritating to the body. Because when your body thinks it's injured, it sends white blood cells to the place it believes there's an injury. And I don't know anything technical, but in my mind's eye, in my mind's eye that draws cartoons of what I think the world looks like, and how I understand things. There's little white blood cells, sort of like the beginning of Jurassic Park, when they show that cartoon to explain that I know DNA, in my in my mind, I see little white blood cells coming and attaching themselves around that cannula and making my insulin not flow correctly. I know none of that's probably technically correct. But I do know that when when a place gets irritated like that, that insulin becomes less effective. And there are times you have to bail on a site sooner than you want to.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 57:03
There could be and it's also a good just around site change itself to be very aware that the potential for that new site to be less absorptive, from really what you're talking about, there is inflammation. Anytime you introduce something underneath the skin, you ask your body to become irritated. And inflammation is what follows. So absorption at that site is significantly decreased. Everybody's a little bit different. Some people it's for about an hour, some people it could last as long as four or six hours, that inflammatory response. It's also I guess, for those who are using a continuous glucose monitor, you know that two hours sink in window? Yeah, it's a big reason for that to our sink in window, besides that sensor needing to get wet. You've put something to sit underneath your skin, your body's got to get used to that and you don't want glucose values coming in from a site that's probably injured. Right? So same with a pump, you really have to pay attention. What do your site changes look like? How does your glucose level change around site change times? And is this normal? Is this a normal flux in glucose? Or is my gosh, my blood sugar's never 300 after I change a site, right, therein lies the difference of change it out or figure out how to navigate the site change, so you don't have a high blood sugar.

Scott Benner 58:25
And I think it's incredibly important to know that while this may sound scary, that you'll figure it out very quickly. It's not something that's going to dog you for your entire existence. There's little is the word peccadilloes, there's small things about everything that you have to you have to figure out along the way. And the only way just like we talked about within something, the only way to figure it out is to do it. Let it go the way you didn't expect, you know, suss out what happened and fix it next time.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 58:53
But I think just the fact in you know, this episode, especially talking about these little pieces, it's really, really important because these are pieces that are often not talked about from an endo education standpoint. They're not they're missed. They're things that you've figured out along the way. And you've talked to other people, and you're like, Ah, I'm not the crazy, man. This is what's happening. Right? Me, me, too. I mean, I, I could have sat and asked my endo about it. But there are things that in interjecting and working with other people and my own self experience. I'm like, I'm not crazy. This is what happens. And I'm not the only one great

Scott Benner 59:34
example, that when Arden was younger, and we changed her pump, she'd get high. And people say oh, that's a thing. That's a pod chain tide only happens with Omni pod and blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, you have to Bolus boring with Bolus with the old pod before you change the new pod because the new pod won't work and everything. None of that was the truth. You want to know the truth. Arden was incredibly nervous. To get her insulin pump changed when she was little, and the adrenaline would hit her and shoot her blood sugar up. And one day, Arden stopped being nervous about having her insulin pump changed. And that all stopped. There was no magic. So people had had imagined this entire story around this. And I started buying into it. At first I was like, oh, obviously, the pump doesn't work right away. And, and all this. And by the way, it doesn't it that's not an unnecessarily incorrect statement. There. Like you just said new inflammation. There's an injury, you do sometimes need more insulin upfront, and I don't disagree with that. But the LEAP she got wasn't the pump change. It was it was adrenaline. And I still, like we talked about earlier, a new pump. As soon as I put on a new pump, I double the Basal for an hour, like right, just to get it going. But But I started thinking down the it's again, this cause and effect, it's the pencil in your pocket, right? Like, I changed the pump in her blood sugar went up, obviously, the pumps not delivering insulin anymore. Make sense? didn't end up being correct. Right? Right. So just you'll figure it out.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 1:01:09
And my experience was coming from a tube pump to Omnipod. So I had experience with site change from a tube standpoint on to Omnipod. And I'm glad that I had that because I do experience that site change inflammation. And I had experienced it on a tube pump with the cannula. And so I knew it was likely going to still happen on Omnipod. Yep. So, you know, again, your experience is

Scott Benner 1:01:34
gonna be different from somebody else's. It's 100% Right? Ah, good. Oh, did we didn't miss anything? Do we do okay? I think I like what you said at the end. I appreciate it because I wanted this to be a real world conversation, not some like shiny. Oh, you'll get a pump and you'll love it and it's gonna and by the way, you will love it. It's in where you won't. I don't know who you are. You know, I can tell you it's been an amazing experience for us. I believe wholeheartedly that the Omni pod is one half of the reason that we are able to keep Arden's a one, see where it is

Jennifer Smith, CDE 1:02:07
where it is. Absolutely. population of people that come off of a pump is small. But there are people who I've got a good friend who pumped for years and was like, Man, she had a major issue with her pump and she was like, No, I'm, I want to make sure I know I'm getting my insulin. She's been on bolusing she's gone through pregnancies with bolusing via MDX. It works for her. But again, that's her choice. And most people will stay on their poem. Listen, here's

Scott Benner 1:02:37
the here's the key, be happy, be healthy. That's all I care about doesn't matter to me what you do, just no differently than the way I talked about using insulin. I talk about pumps and glucose monitors the exact same way. I want you to know how it works. I want you to know what to do when you try it. And once you try it, if you don't want to do it, whatever, man, I don't care. You know, like, I'm not going to tell you what to do. I'm here telling you, you shouldn't make decisions based off of bad information when you have good information, make good decisions, do whatever you want. I want to thank assenza diabetes for sponsoring the remastered diabetes Pro Tip series. Don't forget you can get a free contour next gen starter kit at contour next one.com forward slash juicebox for E meter, while supplies last US residents only. If you're enjoying the remastered episodes of the diabetes Pro Tip series from the Juicebox Podcast you have touched by type one to thank touched by type one.org is a proud sponsor of the remastering of the diabetes Pro Tip series. Learn more about them at touched by type one.org. A huge thank you to one of today's sponsors G voc glucagon find out more about Chico Capo pen at G voc glucagon.com. Forward slash juicebox you spell that GVOKEGLUC AG o n.com. Forward slash juicebox I hope you enjoyed this episode. Now listen, there's 26 episodes in this series. You might not know what each of them are. I'm going to tell you now. Episode 1000 is called newly diagnosed are starting over episode 1001. All about MDI 1002 all about insulin 1003 is called Pre-Bolus Episode 1004 Temp Basal 1005 Insulin pumping 1006 mastering a CGM 1007 Bump and nudge 1008 The perfect Bolus 1009 variables 1010 setting Basal insulin 1011 Exercise 1012 Fat improved Between 1013 Insulin injury and surgery 1014 glucagon and low Beegees. In Episode 1015, Jenny and I talked about emergency room protocols in 1016 long term health 1017 Bumping nudge part two, in Episode 1008 teen pregnancy 1019 explaining type one 1020 glycemic index and load 1021 postpartum 1022, weight loss 1023 Honeymoon 1024 female hormones and in Episode 1025, we talk about transitioning from MDI to pumping. Before I go, I'd like to share two reviews with you of the diabetes Pro Tip series, one from an adult and one from a caregiver. I learned so much from the Pro Tip series when our son was diagnosed last summer. It really helped get me through those first few very tough weeks. It wasn't just your explanations of how it all works, which were way better than anything our diabetes educator told us. But something about the way you and Jenny presented everything, even the scary stuff. That reassured me that we could figure out how to deal with this and to teach our son how to deal with it too. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and experience with us. This podcast is a game changer 25 years as a type one diabetic, and only now am I learning some of the basics, Scott brings useful information and presents it in digestible ways. Learning the Pre-Bolus doesn't just mean Bolus before you eat but means timing your insulin so that is active as the carbs become active. Took me already from a decent 6.5 A one C down to a 5.6. In the past eight months. I've never met Scott But after listening to hundreds of episodes and joining him in his Facebook group, I consider him a friend. listening to this podcast and applying it has been the best thing I have done for my health since diagnosis. I genuinely hope that the diabetes Pro Tip series is valuable for you and your family. If it is find me in the private Facebook group and say hello. If you're enjoying the Juicebox Podcast, please share it with a friend, a neighbor, your physician or someone else who you know that might also benefit from the podcast. Thank you so much for listening. I'll be back very soon with another episode of The Juicebox Podcast. Jenny Smith holds a bachelor's degree in Human Nutrition and biology from the University of Wisconsin. She is a registered and licensed dietitian, a certified diabetes educator and a certified trainer on most makes and models of insulin pumps and continuous glucose monitoring systems. She's also had type one diabetes for over 35 years and she works at integrated diabetes.com. If you're interested in hiring Jenny, you can learn more about her at that link.

#1004 Diabetes Pro Tip: Temp Basal

In this episode of Diabetes Pro Tip, host and diabetes educator Jenny Smith discusses the topic of manipulating basal insulin with her guest, Jennifer Smith. They cover the importance of understanding basal rates and how they can be adjusted to better manage diabetes.

You can listen online to the entire series at DiabetesProTip.com or in your fav audio app.

+ Click for EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Scott Benner 0:03
Hello friends, and welcome to the diabetes Pro Tip series from the Juicebox Podcast. These episodes have been remastered for better sound quality by Rob at wrong way recording. When you need it done right you choose wrong way, wrong way recording.com initially imagined by me as a 10 part series, the diabetes Pro Tip series has grown to 26 episodes. These episodes now exist in your audio player between Episode 1000 and episode 1025. They are also available online at diabetes pro tip.com, and juicebox podcast.com. This series features myself and Jennifer Smith. Jenny is a CD and a type one for over 35 years. This series was my attempt to bring together the management ideas found within the podcast in a way that would make it digestible and revisit double. It has been so incredibly popular that these 26 episodes are responsible for well over a half of a million downloads within the Juicebox Podcast. While you're listening please remember that nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise, always consult a physician before making any changes to your health care plan or becoming bold with insulin. This episode of The Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by assenza diabetes makers of the contour next gen blood glucose meter and they have an amazing offer for you. Right now at my link only contour next one.com forward slash juicebox free meter you can get an absolutely free contour next gen starter kit that's contour next.com forward slash juicebox free meter. while supplies last US residents only. The remastered diabetes Pro Tip series from the Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by touched by type one. See all of the good work they're doing for people living with type one diabetes at touched by type one.org. And on their Instagram and Facebook pages. This show is sponsored today by the glucagon that my daughter carries G voc hypo Penn Find out more at G voc glucagon.com. Forward slash juicebox. Temporary Basal rates do a number of different amazing things,

Jennifer Smith, CDE 2:30
lots and lots compared to what your doctor told you.

Scott Benner 2:33
Yes. And so here's how I always think about it about Basal rates in general, it is bizarre for us to think that we can set up a static Basal rate that will always work at 2pm for the rest of this week, or this month or our lives, right. It's just an odd statement. I don't have diabetes, my blood sugar varies based on what's happening in my body or what I eat. And I bet you even though I have no medical training whatsoever that my body is more aggressive with the amount of background insulin that I get the amount of force it pushes on my blood sugar at different times,

Jennifer Smith, CDE 3:08
because it's got natural compensation. Yes. And I think that that that piece about about Bezos is also really, really, really important for women. Right?

Scott Benner 3:17
Okay. Yes, because of their periods. Or, by the way now I've been told not to say, Lady time by people that I should say period, so that I went back to period to make that person happy. Then I got a beautiful note from somebody the other day, who said, I think Lady time is delightful. And I'm like, I can't win, but that's not the point. So the so so here's a couple of ideas. We get Chinese food coming into the house, right? Or pizza or something that's high carb that breaks down slowly in your system. Okay. My Pre-Bolus For Chinese food is this Temp Basal increase 95% for two hours, boom, I start right there. Then I get a healthy Pre-Bolus in you know, and I start the I went to a decline when when Arden starts eating her food. Chinese is a good example because it's not it's simple sugars and complex carbs at the same time, right. So the coating on the meat might have a lot of sugar in it like the sauces will hit you quickly. But that rice could sit in your system forever and take hours and hours and hours to break down and to go away. So I think of it as carpet bombing insulin. I went to I went to cover the entirety of the timeline that this food is going to have impact on Arden with an increased Basal insulin. It I would also use an increased Basal insulin. When Arden's hormones are affecting her. Yeah, we just got done doing that this week. There was a day and a half or Arden ran a Temp Basal increase of 80% for two days straight. Yep, get a straight. Yep. If your Basal is not right, your Bolus is aren't going to work. Right because you're just replay acing Basil with your Bolus. So even again, you count your carbs. 100%, right. But if your Basal insulin is set at, let's say a unit, but it should be at two units, then when you make a Bolus for a three unit snack, the first unit of it is only covering the basil you don't have. Plus, you haven't had enough basil leading up to that. So you're probably so insulin resistant and having a higher blood sugar to begin with. None of this works without basil. When people come to me and say, Oh, my God, look at my roller coaster. I'm 60. I'm 400. And the first thing I say is okay, let's get your basil is right. If your basil is aren't right, the rest of it doesn't work, right,

Jennifer Smith, CDE 5:39
and temporary bases that are not going to work either because they're working off of a setting. That's not That's not right to begin with. Yep.

Scott Benner 5:45
Inevitably, while I'm talking about bases with people, they say, Well, what about my insulin to carb ratio, and I went, That's not even worth thinking about until we have your basis, right. So now you can think about Basal insulin as Basal insulin used, you know, in the normal course of your day to keep your body function low when you don't have any food. And if you really start to think about them around food, that's when they become incredibly powerful. Yeah. And so there's also a time where, like I alluded to before, you can bump in nudge with basil, right? So not only can you create a hard basil that helps you with carb, heavy meals, but you can look at a blood sugar that's at, you haven't had insulin for hours, and then suddenly, it drops to 75. And it sits there for a little bit. And instead of feeding that 75, you can Temp Basal back. So Temp Basal is unlike the, you know, when I think about the tug of war with with Pre-Bolus Singh, Bezos, I think of this way. I imagine if you and I put our hands out, stood up and put our hands together our palm the palm, and we pushed equal amounts on each other. That's you don't fall back, I don't fall back. That's a perfect Basal rate. Right now there might be a situation where my my blood sugar is starting to fall. So I need the body function to push a little more. So I, I take a little power away from the Basal which allows me to push up. Same thing if I'm at a 90 that's going into a 95. And it's creeping up. But a Bolus is definitely even a tiny Bolus is going to make me a little later I might just do a Temp Basal increase to stop that kind of creeping. Yep. This all occurred to me when I interviewed someone about artificial pancreas and they told me that most of the adjustments that an artificial pancreas makes is through Basal insulin. Yes, not through Bolus

Jennifer Smith, CDE 7:41
100%. If you're doing anything within the looping community, the do it yourself insulin pumps, either open APS or looper, Android APS or whatever that is, that's the gist of the algorithm. It is most of most of the incremental adjustments based on the trend in glucose are being done by positive and negative what's called tamping you get a bit of a bump up, you get a bunch of a bump down, you had a bit of bump bump up, and it's all being based on your current Basal setting. Right? Right. But the incremental ups and downs are what keep you stable

Scott Benner 8:18
that remaster diabetes Pro Tip series is sponsored by assenza diabetes makers of the contour next gen blood glucose meter and they have a unique offer just for listeners of the Juicebox Podcast. If you're new to contour, you can get a free contour next gen starter kit by visiting this special link contour next one.com forward slash juice box free meter. When you use my link, you're going to get the same accurate meter that my daughter carries contour next one.com forward slash juice box free meter head there right now and get yourself the starter kit. This free kit includes the contour next gen meter 10 test strips, 10 lancets, a lancing device control solution and a carry case. But most importantly, it includes an incredibly accurate and easy to use blood glucose meter. This contour meter has a bright light for nighttime viewing and easy to read screen. It fits well on your hand and features Second Chance sampling which can help you to avoid wasting strips. Every one of you has a blood glucose meter. You deserve an accurate one contour next.com forward slash juice box free meter to get your absolutely free contour next gen starter kit sent right to your door. When it's time to get more strips. You can use my link and save time and money buying your contour next products from the convenience of your home. It's completely possible that you will pay less out of pocket in cash for your contour strips than you're paying now, through your insurance. contour next one.com forward slash juice box for E meter go get yourself a free starter kit. while supplies last US residents only touched by type one has the back of people living with type one diabetes. Take for instance, their D box program touched by type one knows firsthand the intricacies of living with type one diabetes. And so their team has created a D box which is a starter kit that provides important resources and supportive materials to individuals with diabetes. They want you to thrive. The D box is completely free and available to newly diagnosed people. All you have to do is go to touched by type one.org. Go to the Programs tab and click on the box. While you're there, check out all the other resources and programs available at touched by type one.org. Speaking of support, touched by type one.org is available in English and Spanish. Don't forget to find them on Facebook and Instagram too. You do not want to miss what touched by type one is doing. When you have diabetes and use insulin, low blood sugar can happen when you don't expect it. G voc hypo pan is a ready to use glucagon options that can treat very low blood sugar in adults and kids with diabetes ages two and above. Find out more go to G voc glucagon.com forward slash juicebox G voc shouldn't be used in patients with pheochromocytoma or insulinoma. Visit GE voc glucagon.com/risk. So when I talked about bumping and nudging, which is going to come up in the future a little more, it's the idea that if you don't use too much insulin, it can't cause a wide swing. Correct, right. So bumping a 120 Diagonal up back to 90 takes a smaller amount of insulin than ignoring your blood sugar till it gets the 180. Now you're putting in a bunch of insulin, it becomes miss time and you get low later. So using these little bumps, just make sense that you can accomplish that with Temp Basal. Again, remember, Temp Basal is going to start working right away. You can't save yourself a va 65 one arrow down with a Temp Basal. No, that's, that's juice time. Right, right. But, but but a 70 that's drifting low and has no impact from insulin really could be saved with it, it could be saved it maybe it won't be but you try and figure it out for yourself, maybe that'll end up being a 90 that's drifting low that you'll eventually use Temp Basal for. But they are, they are such an important tool. And if you're not using them, you're missing out. I will say it here I'll say it again. an insulin pump is not just the way to get less injections. It's also a way to be able to give yourself micro Bolus is to be able to manipulate your Basal insulin to be able to manipulate your Bolus is to spread them out. These tools are are vital. So please tell me and I know you and I are short on time here. But tell me how you talk about Temp Basal with people like where do you where do you really focus in on on education about it.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 13:06
So i we i and i usually really, really focus in on all of the scenarios that are likely to come up where temporary Basil is really an important piece of management, that that bumping and nudging that you talk about, you know, unfortunately, most people are only taught about exercise and the benefit of temporary basil. And they're usually told, well just, you know, just set it for 0% or turn your basil off during that time. Well, that's 100% incorrect to begin with. But exercise is one of many reasons that you may want to change your Basal for a, you know, a duration of time, illness, a woman's menstrual cycle, or that woman's time of the month or whatever you're going to call it. That time you're going to definitely need temporary basil, you're going to need it for sedentary days, I can go to a conference where I'm literally sitting for eight hours. And while I might be walking between conference rooms, the sitting and sedentary I need a 25% increase in my basil. In order to not run high that whole day. I've figured that out right? I figured out what I need to do to take a five mile run versus a 12 mile run temporary basil changes. I figured out what to do for different kinds of illnesses stomach bug may require a decrease. An illness like a sinus infection or a bronchial infection may require an increase. Even even temporary basil around food like you mentioned before with the Chinese high fat food

Scott Benner 14:43
Yes

Jennifer Smith, CDE 14:44
100% requires knowledge of using temporary basil because I know we'll talk about extended boluses and things a little bit too but temporary basil for high fat man. Fat can affect you eight to 12 hours after you're done eating it and it keeps you high. And you may go to bed with an awesome looking blood sugar thinking that man, I nailed that I really got it. What do you get an alarm at two o'clock in the morning? Where are your 300? And you're like, what happen?

Scott Benner 15:11
And those are the examples, by the way, when you can't say to yourself, oh, well, that's just diabetes. It's not just diabetes, if you didn't use the insulin, right, and so every time you think diabetes is just this, this, you know, magic fairy that runs around messing with you, it's something happened, like, you might not know what it is in that moment. But something happened, and you can figure out what those somethings are and stop them. And there's a great example high fat, you might need a Temp Basal increase that goes on for hours and hours later, and maybe

Jennifer Smith, CDE 15:45
maybe fat 50%, at least 50% increase for at least six to eight hours after the meal. Right?

Scott Benner 15:52
Right. It's just it's, I know, it's a little mind numbing to think that, but that's a lot to think about. But I want to, I think now's a great place to say this. As much as we're breaking things down and really stretching them out. So you can see the tiniest little aspects of these ideas. For people who understand them, I will speak for myself. I do not think about diabetes that frequently during the day, this stuff just kind of happens. I know that sounds crazy. But I look at a plate and I go, Okay, here's what this needs. And if and if I miss I readjust. But But I don't spend a lot of time, of course aside of this podcast, but I don't we don't say the word diabetes in our house very frequently, I guess is what I'm saying. We're not always fighting and, and you know, scary lows, and oh my gosh, she's been high for three hours. Like that doesn't happen around here. And you can live that life too. By understanding how insulin works. If you're living with diabetes, or the caregiver of someone who is and you're looking for an online community of supportive people who understand, check out the Juicebox Podcast, private Facebook group Juicebox Podcast, type one diabetes, there are over 41,000 active members, and we add 300 new members every week. There is a conversation happening right now that would interest you, inform you, or give you the opportunity to share something that you've learned Juicebox Podcast, type one diabetes on Facebook, and it's not just for type ones, any kind of diabetes, any way you're connected to it. You are invited to join this absolutely free and welcoming community. I want to thank assenza diabetes for sponsoring the remastered diabetes Pro Tip series. Don't forget you can get a free contour next gen starter kit at contour next one.com forward slash juicebox free meter while supplies last US residents only. If you're enjoying the remastered episodes of the diabetes Pro Tip series from the Juicebox Podcast you have touched by type one to thank touched by type one.org is a proud sponsor of the remastering of the diabetes Pro Tip series. Learn more about them at touched by type one.org A huge thank you to one of today's sponsors je Vogue glucagon, find out more about Chivo Capo pen at G Vogue glucagon.com forward slash juicebox you spell that GVOKEGL You see a ag o n.com forward slash toolbox. I hope you enjoyed this episode. Now listen, there's 26 episodes in this series. You might not know what each of them are. I'm going to tell you now. Episode 1000 is called newly diagnosed are starting over episode 1001. All about MDI 1002 all about insulin 1003 is called Pre-Bolus Episode 1004 Temp Basal 1005 Insulin pumping 1006 mastering a CGM 1007 Bumping nudge 1008 The perfect Bolus 1009 variables 1010 setting Basal insulin 1011 Exercise 1012 fat and protein 1013 Insulin injury and surgery 1014 glucagon and low Beegees in Episode 1015 Jenny and I talked about emergency room protocols in 1016 long term health 1017 Bumping nudge part two in Episode 1008 teen pregnancy 1019 explaining type one 1020 glycemic index and load 1000 21 postpartum 1022 weight loss 1023 Honeymoon 1024 female hormones and in Episode 1025, we talk about transitioning from MDI to pumping. Before I go, I'd like to share two reviews with you of the diabetes Pro Tip series, one from an adult, and one from a caregiver. I learned so much from the Pro Tip series when our son was diagnosed last summer. It really helped get me through those first few very tough weeks. It wasn't just your explanations of how it all works, which were way better than anything our diabetes educator told us. But something about the way you and Jenny presented everything, even the scary stuff. That reassured me that we could figure out how to deal with us and to teach our son how to deal with it too. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and experience with us. This podcast is a game changer 25 years as a type one diabetic, and only now in my learning some of the basics, Scott brings useful information and presents it in digestible ways. Learning the Pre-Bolus doesn't just mean Bolus before you eat but means timing your insulin so that is active as the carbs become active, took me already from a decent 6.5 A one C down to a 5.6. In the past eight months. I've never met Scott But after listening to hundreds of episodes and joining him in his Facebook group, I consider him a friend. listening to this podcast and applying it has been the best thing I have done for my health since diagnosis. I genuinely hope that the diabetes Pro Tip series is valuable for you and your family. If it is find me in the private Facebook group and say hello. If you're enjoying the Juicebox Podcast, please share it with a friend, a neighbor, your physician or someone else who you know that might also benefit from the podcast. Thank you so much for listening. I'll be back very soon with another episode of The Juicebox Podcast. Jenny Smith holds a bachelor's degree in Human Nutrition and biology from the University of Wisconsin. She is a registered and licensed dietitian, a certified diabetes educator and a certified trainer on most makes and models of insulin pumps and continuous glucose monitoring systems. She's also had type one diabetes for over 35 years and she works at integrated diabetes.com. If you're interested in hiring Jenny, you can learn more about her at that link.

#1003 Diabetes Pro Tip: Pre Bolus

Scott talks about the importance of pre-bolusing for people with diabetes. He is joined by Jennifer Smith, a registered dietitian and certified diabetes educator, who shares her insights on the topic. They discuss how pre-bolusing can help ensure that insulin is well-timed with meals.

You can listen online to the entire series at DiabetesProTip.com or in your fav audio app.

+ Click for EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Scott Benner 0:04
Hello friends, and welcome to the diabetes Pro Tip series from the Juicebox Podcast. These episodes have been remastered for better sound quality by Rob at wrong way recording. When you need it done right you choose wrong way, wrong way recording.com initially imagined by me as a 10 part series, the diabetes Pro Tip series has grown to 26 episodes. These episodes now exist in your audio player between Episode 1000 and episode 1025. They are also available online at diabetes pro tip.com, and juicebox podcast.com. This series features myself and Jennifer Smith, Jenny is a CD and a type one for over 35 years. This series was my attempt to bring together the management ideas found within the podcast in a way that would make it digestible and revisit double. It has been so incredibly popular that these 26 episodes are responsible for well over a half of a million downloads within the Juicebox Podcast. While you're listening, please remember that nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise, always consult a physician before making any changes to your healthcare plan or becoming bold with insulin. If you're living with diabetes, or the caregiver of someone who is and you're looking for an online community of supportive people who understand, check out the Juicebox Podcast private Facebook group Juicebox Podcast type one diabetes, there are over 41,000 active members and we add 300 new members every week. There's a conversation happening right now that would interest you, inform you or give you the opportunity to share something that you've learned Juicebox Podcast, type one diabetes on Facebook, and it's not just for type ones, any kind of diabetes, any way you're connected to it, you are invited to join this absolutely free and welcoming community. This episode of The Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by assenza diabetes makers of the contour next gen blood glucose meter and they have an amazing offer for you. Right now at my link only contour next one.com forward slash juice box free meter you can get an absolutely free contour next gen starter kit that's contour next.com forward slash juice box free meter. while supplies last US residents only. The remastered diabetes Pro Tip series from the Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by touched by type one. See all of the good work they're doing for people living with type one diabetes at touched by type one.org and on their Instagram and Facebook pages. This show is sponsored today by the glucagon that my daughter carries G voc hypo pen, find out more at G voc glucagon.com forward slash juicebox. In the episode about insulin, I told you that that my nurse practitioner CD told us that fear of insulin was the biggest sticking point for people making good decisions with their diabetes, right. And after I got past my fear of insulin, the next hurdle I had to get past was Pre-Bolus. And I am now years and years later at a time where I will tell you that if you do not Pre-Bolus a meal, the likelihood of success is near zero. And if you have success without Pre-Bolus saying all that means is that you gave yourself too much insulin prior to that. And it's just catching up now. And so this is it. We're going to talk about Pre-Bolus and we're going to talk about how about insulin action right the action of the insulin and how to balance it against the impact of the carbs or your body function. So tell me let's go over the part that people aren't going to find comforting at first right which is the amount of time it takes insulin to begin working in a person varies person to person and insulin to insulin is that pretty fair to say?

Jennifer Smith, CDE 4:25
It's pretty fair to say yes and insulin to insulin. I would definitely say most of the the rapids on the market should be fairly similar okay? The rapid acting insulins on the market and their time of action should be fairly similar now. Person to Person yes, that may vary situation to situation as well as situation it may vary but again, that's the learning part of it.

Scott Benner 4:54
Okay, so person the person could end up meaning just your body chemistry could mean where your infusion set is right, you know, your your injection site,

Jennifer Smith, CDE 5:03
absolutely. Say

Scott Benner 5:04
you're a person who gets stuck on, I always injected my belly in the same place, that spot might not be as reactive to the insulin as if you would just try a new spot. If you went to a new spot, it might work quicker than it has been in your old spot. Right? If you're wearing an infusion set it could we alluded to it before you could get better action from your insulin on day one than you do on day three or better on day two, then, you know, two hours after you've put it on, there's a lot of different variables. But we're speaking generally here to you'll apply them to your variables later. Now, if you've heard this podcast before, you'll know that I have alluded to how insulin works in a number of different ways. So I'm gonna give my kind of cartoony description of it, and then we're gonna let Jenny talk about it for real

Jennifer Smith, CDE 5:50
cartoony, might be better, actually, we'll see.

Scott Benner 5:52
So here's how I pictured in my head a couple of different ways. The first way is I think of a tug of war. And I imagine a rope with a with a flag hanging in the middle of it. And on one side of this tug of war rope is insulin. And on the other side is your carbs and your body function. It could be adrenaline, it could be fear, it could be anxiety, whatever it helps to drive your blood sugar up. That stuff's on one side of the rope. The insolence on the other side, unlike a tug of war in a schoolyard, our goal is not for one side to win, our goal is for them both to pull and pull and pull until they get exhausted, they both go, I can't do this anymore, and they dropped the rope and our flags still in the center. That flag represents the blood sugar. You start at when the impact of the carbs begins in my mind, so I'll explain a little more. If you let them both start pulling at the same time, the carbs are generally speaking, going to gain power and momentum before the insulin begins to work. So now your rope is going towards a high blood sugar and you're you're starting to head up. Now suddenly, you're 50 points higher. And what if you started with 150 blood sugar, now you're at 200. And now these carbs have momentum. They have speed, they're pulling your blood sugar up. Now all the sudden, 1520 30 minutes later, the insolence like, oh, no, no, wait, I have a job to do. I remember and it kind of comes online. But now it's pulling, it can overpower the the momentum that the carbs have created. Plus, you now have another 100 points of blood sugar to contend with. And all you have is the insulin that you counted your carbs for. So even if you counted your carbs perfectly, and realize that this meal is five units, once the momentum of the carbs is rocketing your blood sugar up, once you have a number that is higher than you started with those five units are not even going to begin to cover what's happening, let alone the food that you've put in. But if you put the insulin in first, and let the insulin come online slowly and begin to pull down and create the momentum in the other way, then you flip the script. And now the carbs are fighting. So instead of having a fight at 180, blood sugar, you're having a fight at an 80 blood sugar. And instead of your blood sugar falling at 80 It's being the attempt is that it's now trying to be pulled up by the carbs. And that's how when you see people with a stable graph, that's how they're doing it. And so for me, in a perfect situation for me, my daughter's blood sugar is diagonal down when I give her most foods. There's differences you know, food to food, situation to situation but in a perfect world. To me, that's it, you want your insulin working, your blood sugar trending down, creating some momentum down, when you allow the carbs to begin to pull up. Correct. Now, you to explain that in a technical way that sounds

Jennifer Smith, CDE 8:54
and in most in most settings, yes, that's 100% I mean, insulin, our rapid I've always thought that rapid is such a misnomer. Honestly, rapid indicates like now rapid is like you know, click, click click light switch. It's on, it's working. And it's you know, still education is take your insulin and start to eat. I mean, even from most endo offices, it's take your insulin and start to eat, it's going to be working very, very quickly. That's not the case and anybody who's been taking insulin long enough, and you've seen the spikes, and you've seen the issues, despite counting your carbs as precisely and weighing them and everything and you're still seeing these issues. It's the mismatch of insulin timing. It is so our rapids take anywhere between about 15 to 30 minutes to really get that active peak, not peak but that active phase where then when you start putting your carbs in there They will match. As you said, the carb digestion will start to match with the insulin, you'll get a nice gentle curve up. And it should then start to curve back down. And there is a lot of, there's a lot of education that also focuses on, as you mentioned, watching for that curve down, watching for the curve down to start so that you know, the insulin is already moving things.

Scott Benner 10:30
Yeah. And to give you some context that a person I spoke about in a previous episode, who was having trouble, told me, but what am I gonna do, I'm going to be scared. I said, well try it a little bit, this time, and then a little more next time and a little more next time and go forward. And, and so I always tell this story somewhere. And I think here's the right place to tell it. Prior to glucose sensing technology being a thing that anyone knew about prior to Dexcom, I was again in the office and the CD says to me, Hey, you're gonna get one of those Dexcom things. And I thought, I don't know what that is, you know, and she starts telling me, it's a continuous glucose monitor. And I'm like, Yeah, I again, don't know. And then she tells me this simple story. There's a 17 year old boy in her practice, who loves candy, certain kinds of candy, and he can't figure out how to Bolus it. So he gets a Dexcom, whatever the first one was, I don't even remember anymore. His whole goal was to eat this candy without a spike. So he goes out to the store. And he buys like little grab bags of these candies, and a number of them enough for a week and every day starts on this experiment first day, just like you said, eats, gives himself as his insulin, just like he'd been told his whole life, blood sugar goes up to 20, something like that sits there forever. Eventually, he has to give himself more insulin to bring it back down again. Next day, he tries a little sooner, give himself a few minutes, 510 minutes gets a little less of a rise. So the next day, he goes even sooner. And then before you know it, it's a little sooner, a little more, and he starts adjusting it back and forth a little more a little sooner, a little later, until one day, he eats the candy. And his blood sugar never moves. And she tells me that story. And I thought immediately Wow, that means it's possible. Yeah, that was the first time I thought I was like, if that kid can do it with candy. I can do it with anything. Like anything, right? And so yes, give me that CGM place. And I got it. And I started dispense with my fear. And I started learning about it. There were hiccups along the way, right? I've given her insulin, and she's gotten lower than I meant to for two when she's eating. But you know, once twice, I'll go back to this over and over again, when something goes wrong. It's not a mistake. It's a learning experience. It's data for next time. Right? Right. So I put the insulin in, and she goes down to 70 and sits at 70. While she's eating. It's beautiful. You know, like, there she goes. And then and then then a spike. Even if I really messed up on the amount of insulin, I used a spike takes you to 120. Right? Right, right. It's not right. It's just, it's all about that timing and amount. And I repeated over and over again, that you all the things you and I are going to speak about all the things that people hear about on this podcast, if you want to know how to use your insulin, at its core, the very first step is timing and amount. If you get used the right amount at the wrong time, you can use the wrong amount at the right time, that it's too much, you have to have the right amount of insulin at the right time, you have to balance the action of the insulin against the impact of the carbs. If you do that, I don't want to say it's easy, because that's insulting to people. But let me just say I don't think about diabetes that much anymore.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 13:44
It's easier, it's much easier if you do that. It is easier. Absolutely. And it's a lot more. It gives you a lot more visual than to understand. Because it's not so much of an unknown Well, gosh, I counted the carbs and it took the right amount of insulin and this is always happening to me. Why. And if you can start to put those pieces together, it's not a wi anymore. It's like turning the light bulb on.

Scott Benner 14:16
Here's how I explain what Johnny just said, touched by type one has a wide array of resources and programs for people living with type one diabetes. When you visit touched by type one.org Go up to the top of the page where it says programs there you're gonna see all of the terrific things that touched by type one is doing and I mean, it's a lot type one it's school, the D box program, golfing for diabetes, dancing for diabetes, which is a terrific program you just click on that to check that out. Bowl for a cause their awareness campaigns and the annual conference that I've spoken at a number of years in a row. It's just amazing, just like touched by type one touched by type one.org or find them on Facebook and Instagram. links in the show notes Lynx at juicebox podcast.com To touch by type one, and the other great sponsors that are supporting the remastering of the diabetes Pro Tip series, touched by type one.org. The remastered diabetes Pro Tip series is sponsored by assenza diabetes makers of the contour next gen blood glucose meter and they have a unique offer just for listeners of the Juicebox Podcast. If you're new to contour you can get a free contour next gen starter kit by visiting this special link contour next one.com forward slash juice box free meter will you use my link you're going to get the same accurate meter that my daughter carries contour next one.com forward slash juice box free meter head there right now and get yourself the starter kit. This free kit includes the contour next gen meter 10 test strips 10 lancets, a lancing device control solution and a carry case. But most importantly, it includes an incredibly accurate and easy to use blood glucose meter. This contour meter has a bright light for nighttime viewing an easy to read screen, it fits well in your hand, and features Second Chance sampling which can help you to avoid wasting strips. Every one of you has a blood glucose meter, you deserve an accurate one contour next one.com forward slash juice box free meter to get your absolutely free contour next gen starter kit sent right to your door. When it's time to get more strips, you can use my link and save time and money buying your contour next products from the convenience of your home. It's completely possible that you will pay less out of pocket in cash for your contour strips, then you're paying now through your insurance. Contour next one.com forward slash juice box free meter go get yourself a free starter kit. while supplies last US residents only. When you have diabetes and use insulin, low blood sugar can happen when you don't expect it. G Bo Capo pen is a ready to use glucagon option that can treat very low blood sugar in adults and kids with diabetes ages two and above. Find out more go to G voc glucagon.com forward slash juicebox G voc shouldn't be used in patients with pheochromocytoma or insulinoma. Visit G voc glucagon.com/risk. Here's how I explain what Johnny just said. I think of it as this equation that it's a mathematical equation that doesn't have any math in it. I did this that happen. So next time I'll do more less sooner, you know, little less little more, that kind of thing. And I always just I always just keep looking at it like that. I did this and that happen. It's the idea of being in a fistfight and you want to hit first because now you have cause and effect. Right? And if you and so now you know I've done something. And that's what happened next. Now I can make a good decision about what what I do next, instead of waiting for diabetes to do something to you. And then you're just covering up your face hoping not to get knocked out. Right? Like because you don't know what's happening. You don't know why it's happening, you have no context for what's going on. But when you make the first move, you can be sure that what happens next was impacted by what you did. I put insulin in 10 minutes before you ate 10 minutes before I ate. And my blood sugar went to 150. So the next time I'm going to try 15 minutes. And if it goes to 130 I might try 20 minutes. And you know if I get low than later, I might say okay, I might need a little more a little less. Now here's where people always say, Well, how much Scott How long? You know, give me the time give me the amount? That answer for me. It's always going to be I don't know, figure it out for yourself. Okay, you have to

Jennifer Smith, CDE 19:04
this is the starting place. Yes. This is where to start. This is how to start. You have to do your own. I mean, diabetes is a science experiment. It's a daily, I feel like every day you're almost given like this new petri dish. And you're told, keep the dots growing purple today. Okay, let's work on keeping the dots growing problem is that something green pops in and then these like little horny pink things pop on? You're like, oh, no, but it is it's like it's a science experiment that for the most part, when you figure out what does work, the timing around the most typical foods that you eat and whatnot. It takes a lot less thinking out of the equation.

Scott Benner 19:46
Yeah. And while this isn't about Pre-Bolus and it will come up later, but it's important for me to say because I think this is impactful. When you really stop and think about your your habits around food. They're pretty similar Right, right. So, you know, you're not I always say like this, like, if you're a person who gets a pizza on a Friday night and has two slices, you don't suddenly next Friday have seven slices. You don't go from being a two slice person to a seven slice person, right? Like, yeah. And so, so you can start making these decisions about how much insulin and when, and you can make them based on Yes, historical knowledge about what's going on. Yes,

Jennifer Smith, CDE 20:24
I usually tell people as the Pre-Bolus piece, you've got, most people have about 20 to 25 foods that are the most common for you to eat regularly. Yeah, that's at least 80% of your control there, at least. So if you can nail the Bolus timing around those and figure it out, for the most part, you know, variations in setting will happen, whatever, yeah, but for the most part, if you've figured that out, you're also much more likely to be able to figure out food that isn't your norm, because of the similarities to what you've chosen. And what you're usually eating, because you

Scott Benner 21:09
can stay flexible, I call it saying stay fluid, right? So here's, here's where I'll tell people this, don't get mad. I don't count carbs. I actually think about it a little backwards from maybe how most of you think about it. I don't look at the food and say, you know, weigh it or measured and say okay, well that's 25 carbs. And my pump says that I get one unit for every 10. So that's two and a half units. In honesty, there is no accurate insulin to carb ratio set up in Arden's pump. We don't even I don't even pay attention to that. I look at a plate and I say to myself, that's seven units. I think that if she's going to sit down and gorge herself on nachos and cheese, the last time that happened, it took 10 units. But I think of it as insulin, not as carbs. And of course that takes a little practice, right? It does, it does. And it is a little contingent on you having a CGM. I'm not going to lie about that, right, because I start with a healthy Pre-Bolus. And healthy would mean in amount and time. And then I watch her CGM, and I don't really watch it, I have her tolerances set tightly enough that if she leaves that range, I find out about it. So as an example, if I were to give art in something incredibly carb heavy, I might use a Temp Basal increase, and a Pre-Bolus to try to spread out the action of the insulin across this timeline where there's going to be these carbs, right? If I make a Bolus, and 30 minutes after I do it, she's 121 30 Diagonal up. I look at that line. And it tells me something based on my previous knowledge, it's I say to myself, ooh, this I missed, like, this isn't enough insulin, and I will give her more I will bump it and nudge it back. It's not a ton more, it's enough to stop the arrows,

Jennifer Smith, CDE 23:06
right. And the arrows are very important to bring up in this in this as well. Because if you are using a CGM, those arrows do indicate a rate of change. And again, that's not something that most people realize. They don't understand that and not understand and people won't tell us but it's that they've not been told they've not been told, Hey, these arrows tell you that you're increasing by 30 to 60 points in the next 30 minutes. Okay, if that's the case, and I know what my kind of correction factor is, or whatever, I can say, Okay, I'm going to need this much more insulin, because if I don't correct my rising 130 blood sugar in the next 30 minutes, I could be 30 to 60 points higher. I could be as high as 190. I don't want to be 190 I've obviously miscalculated someplace, I can throw in a bit more insulin to counter that expected and stabilize it. Yes. Yeah.

Scott Benner 24:02
It very much. It very much is remembering to like I guess the way I usually say it is that you have to trust that what you know is going to happen is going to happen. Right? Yeah, you see. And I think that the least important aspect of what the Dexcom does is the number. It's the direction and the speed, direction and 100%.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 24:29
I wish more please say that again. It is the direction it's the trend. It is not just the number.

Scott Benner 24:38
The number is nice, like don't get me wrong. It's a starting point. But, you know, if you're 60 and stable, and you haven't had insulin for three hours, you haven't had food for three hours when maybe you could get away with like a Temp Basal decrease of 100% for half an hour, maybe you'll rise to 90 Right? But if you're 60 and you're falling well Then you don't have enough time because as we've now discussed over and over again, insulin doesn't begin working right away. Also, Temp Basal is our insulin. It's funny how people think of bolusing. And Basil is different. But once you're on a pump, it's the same thing. You can't just turn your basil off, and it starts happening right away,

Jennifer Smith, CDE 25:16
takes about 60 minutes for circulating insulin level to be different.

Scott Benner 25:20
And I always write and I always try to think of it a little bit as like Ardens Pre-Bolus. Time Like if Ardens Pre-Bolus time is 20 minutes, well, then setting a Temp Basal is not really going to start working for at least 20 minutes plus, it's a fraction of the Basal rate, if, if you're getting a unit an hour, and I say to it, okay, let's double it, let's double it to two units an hour, that impact of that doesn't begin for 20 minutes or so plus, it's not the whole unit extra. It's the it's the fraction of it. So when we talked about basil, we'll get to that. But so Pre-Bolus thing is really just the idea of balancing, again, the action of the insulin against the impact of the carbs, giving yourself a chance, not letting the carbs wash you away, because here's what happens when the carbs wash you away. Count your carbs exactly right, you put your insulin in, you spike up the 200. When that happens, that insulin was only for the food. It wasn't for the 200 blood sugar, and it wasn't for the momentum of the rise. And so when I see that, like, I guess an easier way to say this when when I don't have time for a Pre-Bolus. And Pre-Bolus thing to me is never about the number, you can Pre-Bolus a 65 blood sugar, you know, you can Pre-Bolus a 90 blood sugar because still no matter what, if you're stable at 65, the insulin you put in, it's not going to start working until it starts working. So you have and so don't get me wrong if I see a 65 blood sugar and an artist needs 10 units for what she's eating. I don't put all 10 units in at a 65. I might do an extended Bolus which we'll talk about and extended Bolus but I get some insulin moving, I make sure the insulin is on the winning side of this tug of war to start. But in a situation where I can't Pre-Bolus Let's say I know the meal is five units. 100% certain it's five units. But for whatever reason life, let's call it I can't Pre-Bolus and Ardens. You know, I'm going to start eating right now. I'll give her seven units. Because I Pre-Bolus for the food, the five units for the food I knew. And I pray. And I'm Pre-Bolus seeing the rise I know is coming and the end, the number I know is coming. So I'm already treating a high blood sugar that hasn't happened yet. Because I know it's going to happen. Because I didn't Pre-Bolus Right.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 27:45
John Walsh goes into detail about what you're doing in a little bit of a different way. He calls it super Bolus I call for bolusing. Yeah, and he calls it super Bolus in the way that you take that five units, let's say in your example. And let's say your basil behind that meal for the next two hours is one unit an hour, you actually take your basil running for the next two hours, and you add it into the Bolus for the meal and you take it all upfront. And then to decrease the chance of being too low leader. Because of so much upfront action and the blood sugar staying normal, you actually set a temporary Basal decrease, he recommends starting with 100% Because you've loaded that onto the front to avoid a low but on the back end. Some people find though that attempt Basil 100% off is too much. They only need a 50% they still call the spike and prevent it. But in the back end, they're not having a low then. So similar kind of concept. Yeah,

Scott Benner 28:49
I consider that trading Bolus for basil. So So you know, say 120 Diagonal up 3040 minutes after a meal and I go oh, geez, I got to stop that arrow. How much do I Bolus to stop there? I usually Bolus an hour's worth of a base of Basal insulin. That way if the arrow stops and I stay steady, and she doesn't go down, I say okay, well obviously I was just wrong on the initial amount. But in those situations where you push the button, you know the unit and a half goes in, and five seconds later the arrow goes from 122 Diagonal up the flat you go oh, I didn't need that. Right Temp Basal off off half hour. All I've done is trade the basil for the Bolus. Absolutely. Here's a good place to say this. And we'll say this in each of these little vignettes. Never suspend your basil. It's always temporary Basil is when you suspend your shutting your pump off when you shut your pump off.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 29:41
It does not turn back around. You have to remember to turn it back on. Yes, yep.

Scott Benner 29:45
It's always temporary because you can set a Temp Basal for a half an hour or an hour, two hours but at the end of that time, it goes back it'll go back on to start delivering your basil it's always temporary Basil is not not don't suspend your pump. Oh Okay, so I think Do you think we covered Pre-Bolus there?

Jennifer Smith, CDE 30:02
I think that's pretty good. Good. Yeah, that's awesome.

Scott Benner 30:08
I want to thank assenza diabetes for sponsoring the remastered diabetes Pro Tip series. Don't forget you can get a free Contour Next One starter kit at contour next one.com forward slash juicebox free meter, while supplies last US residents only. If you're enjoying the remastered episodes of the diabetes Pro Tip series from the Juicebox Podcast you have touched by type one to thank touched by type one.org is a proud sponsor of the remastering of the diabetes Pro Tip series. Learn more about them at touched by type one.org. A huge thank you to one of today's sponsors G voc glucagon, find out more about Chivo Capo pen at G Vogue glucagon.com forward slash juicebox you spell that GVOKEGLUC AG o n.com. Forward slash juicebox. Jenny Smith holds a bachelor's degree in Human Nutrition and biology from the University of Wisconsin. She is a registered and licensed dietitian, a certified diabetes educator and a certified trainer and most makes and models of insulin pumps and continuous glucose monitoring systems. She has also had type one diabetes for over 35 years and she works at integrated diabetes.com If you're interested in hiring Jenny, you can learn more about her at that link. I hope you enjoyed this episode. Now listen, there's 26 episodes in this series. You might not know what each of them are. I'm going to tell you now. Episode 1000 is called newly diagnosed you're starting over episode 1001 all about MDI 1002 all about insulin 1003 is called Pre-Bolus Episode 1004 Temp Basal 1005 Insulin pumping 1006 mastering a CGM 1007 Bump and nudge 1008 The perfect Bolus 1009 variables 1010 setting Basal insulin 1011 Exercise 1012 fat and protein 1013 Insulin injury and surgery 1014 glucagon and low Beegees in Episode 1015 Jenny and I talked about emergency room protocols in 1016 long term health 1017 Bumping nudge part two in Episode 1008 teen pregnancy 1019 explaining type one 1020 glycemic index and load 1021 postpartum 1022 weight loss 1023 Honeymoon 1024 female hormones and an episode 1025 We talk about transitioning from MDI to pumping. Before I go I'd like to share two reviews with you of the diabetes Pro Tip series, one from an adult and one from a caregiver. I learned so much from the Pro Tip series when our son was diagnosed last summer. It really helped get me through those first few very tough weeks. It wasn't just your explanations of how it all works, which were way better than anything our diabetes educator told us. But something about the way you and Jenny presented everything, even the scary stuff. That reassured me that we could figure out how to deal with us and to teach our son how to deal with it too. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and experience with us. This podcast is a game changer 25 years as a type one diabetic, and only now am I learning some of the basics. Scott brings useful information and presents it in digestible ways. Learning that Pre-Bolus doesn't just mean Bolus before you eat but means timing your insulin so that is active as the carbs become active. Took me already from a decent 6.5 A one C down to a 5.6. In the past eight months. I've never met Scott But after listening to hundreds of episodes and joining him in his Facebook group, I consider him a friend. listening to this podcast and applying it has been the best thing I have done for my health since diagnosis. I genuinely hope that the diabetes Pro Tip series is valuable for you and your family. If it is find me in the private Facebook group and say hello. If you're enjoying the Juicebox Podcast, please share it with a friend, a neighbor, your physician or someone else who you know that might also benefit from the podcast. Thank you so much for listening. I'll be back very soon with another episode of The Juicebox Podcast.