Scott Benner 1/25/23 Scott Benner 1/25/23

#834 Lies, Truths and How We Feel

Erika Forsyth is an LMFT who has type 1 diabetes.

Reach Erika on her site, by email or at 626-344-2263

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DISCLAIMER: This text is the output of AI based transcribing from an audio recording. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors and should not be treated as an authoritative record. Nothing that you read here constitutes advice medical or otherwise. Always consult with a healthcare professional before making changes to a healthcare plan.

Scott Benner 0:00
Hello friends, and welcome to episode 834 of the Juicebox Podcast

guess what everybody Erica Forsythe is back. That's right, your favorite licensed marriage and family therapist is here again today. Today I start the conversation off with Erica, by asking her to talk about a sentence that I hear spoken very frequently. People love to say, I don't let diabetes get in my way. I'm not letting diabetes slow me down. I hear it all the time. And I hear it two different ways when people say it to me, and Eric and I talk through it. And then at some point, we talk about how to change things. And then it just goes down a slippery slope of my of my internal workings of my mind. So that'll be fun, you can sit in on a therapy session with me at the end. While you're listening. Please remember that nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise. Please Always consult a physician before making any changes to your health care plan, or becoming bold with insulin. If you like Erica, and you'd like to hire her, and you live in California, Utah, Oregon, or Florida, she's at Erica forsyth.com.

This episode of The Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by touched by type one, head now, two touched by type one.org. And also find them on Facebook and Instagram. When you get to these locations, you're going to find an organization doing an immense amount of good for people living with type one diabetes, go see what they're all about. Touched by type one.org. The podcast is also sponsored today by my favorite blood glucose meter, that Contour Next One, and you're gonna find out way more about the Contour Next One than you ever thought possible. At contour next one.com forward slash juicebox. Okay, all right, so we're recording. Erica, before we get started, I have a growing list of things I'd like to talk to you about. And I thought maybe it would be interesting to just let you pick on the day. Okay, all right. Sounds good. Okay, so here's what I have already. You and I have already talked about. I don't know if you know this. But when I think of things, I go into this little note and I put like ideas. And so like I put it in magical thinking one day, and you and I did an episode about that mom guilt. We did that one. But since then I've put in Maslow's pyramid. Do you know that? Yeah. Okay. I put in scarcity mindset. I put I put in charitable interpretations. I put in what the principle of charity and critical thinking is. Sorry, this jumps all over the place, how to support how to support suicidal people. I want to talk about the statement that people make that says I don't let diabetes slow me down. I want to talk about how people interact with each other online. I want to talk about rebellion as like a human decision. Like what happens to a person's mind when they see like, my mom wants me to do this. So I'm going to do the opposite. I'm fascinated by that. And just life expectation, like how does it impact your life? When you paint a picture for yourself? And then it starts to deviate immediately? Because it will I also have on here how to share burdens. Like when you have a burden, how do you learn to share it with somebody. And then people diagnosed with type one as an adult, how they could find community engaged their partners for support and things like that. So that's my list so far. Do you have a choice for today? Oh,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 4:06
my goodness. That's an exciting, an extensive list.

Scott Benner 4:11
We got to keep you busy. You got this.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 4:13
I know.

Scott Benner 4:16
I said everybody, Eric about a nice microphone. So we're gonna give her a lot to do.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 4:21
It's exciting. It's good stuff. Goodness, where do we want to start? Do you are you do you have a leaning? I think I will tell you. Yeah. Have

Scott Benner 4:33
you started to talk about anything off this list? I'd start getting ramped up and want to talk about it. So it doesn't matter to me. But what's been on my list the longest for you? Maybe we could do it that way. I think I think the statement about not letting diabetes slow me down is really interesting to me.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 4:54
You I was leaning towards that or how to share like the burden piece I think is a is a topic It comes up quite frequently, particularly with caregivers. So yeah, either one of those,

Scott Benner 5:04
let's start with the statement, we'll see where it goes, maybe we'll get to two of them today, or maybe the next time you come on, we'll do that. So I, I'm not gonna need any notes for this, I'm not gonna need the internet. This is all just anecdotal for me. So I'll begin by saying that when I first heard somebody say, I don't let diabetes slow me down. I thought, that's amazing. This is a person who's saying, I have this thing, but I do everything I want to do. And it doesn't get in my way, what a what a beautiful statement. And then I started interviewing more and more people. And I started to realize that for some of those people, what that statement means is, even though I have diabetes, what I do is I ignore it, and then I just do whatever I want. And in their mind, they're not letting diabetes get in their way. Does that? Does that resonate with you as a person who has played Pong?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 5:59
I think I think it could really go both ways. I think there's the, the avoidance kind of omitting ignore it and not let it stop me from doing what I want. And by that, you're maybe you're not actively managing it. Or there is the hyperfocus hyper management, you really, truly can do, quote, whatever you want, eat whatever you want exercise however you want. And you figured it out. And while there is parts of your life that made diabetes interferes with, for the most part, you view view, your narrative of your life is I'm living my life. And I have diabetes, but it doesn't stop me. So I think can go both ways. Right?

Scott Benner 6:40
Yeah, no. And I think that I think that broadly, and mostly, it's a great mindset, like, absolutely the way to go, like this thing is not going to stop me. But if it's stopping you ignoring it, and just trudging on, it's not the answer. You know, I I interview people every day, just this week, 12 year old, you know, when she's diagnosed, and she said it, she's like, I never let it stop me. I played this many sports in school, and I did all this. And I did that. And then the last 30 minutes of our conversation are about the injection, she's getting in her eyes, and she can't feel her feet. And, you know, like, what she meant was, I just kept going, which is admirable, by the way beyond admirable, honestly. But there's a way to, there's a way to learn about diabetes, and to corral it and work with it, so that you can really go do whatever you want. without it hurting you. While you're it's it doesn't need to be a trade off. And I don't know, like I've never heard. It's the one statement that sticks out in my head. Because no matter which side of this, this scenario, I hear people speak about it. They say it the same exact way. That's the part that fascinates me, I don't let diabetes get in my way. And that can come out of a person's mouth, who was a five to a one C, and knows how to keep their blood sugar's between 70 and 140. All day. And that same proud statement can come out of someone's mouth, who has an 11 a one C for their whole life.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 8:10
I was just thinking, I wonder what the difference is internally between that sense of kind of healthy pride, and maybe inter and maybe shame, right? Like, the person who is not managing and says, I don't let diabetes get in my way. I'm, I'm guessing there might be some shame, there might be some anger, disappointment I can't deal with process with this means to live with this chronic illness. And so I'm just gonna ignore it. And I'm not going to let it stop me. But I'm still but I'm ignoring it. And I you might feel awful, probably physically, emotionally. Whereas the person who's saying with pride, like I can do this, I imagined they probably feel pretty good about themselves. They've done the work, they figured it out. They have the skill set, they have the tools, they have the availability, you know, to have all the things that you need to manage well. So they're even though maybe it's coming out the same way. I'm guessing that probably internally the narrative is a little different.

Scott Benner 9:13
Yeah. So one side is is like genuine pride, and just like, wow, I can't believe I've accomplished this. And the other side might be a mask. It might be, I'm being beaten by this thing, but I'm just gonna, I'm gonna go on like, it's not happening. And then there's pride in that I imagined to which and that's not misplaced. You know, like, if you're just like, it almost, it's like you're in a movie, and you get shot. And you're like, you know, some some people are like, Go on without me. I'm gonna lay here and die. And some of the characters are like, I'm gonna do it. They pick themselves up and the dragon the bad leg. And I think I think that's how I think of it sometimes like, you're like you're injured, and you should stop and tend to yourself, and it is brave to just drag your leg on. Like, you know what I mean? Like, but it'd be better if you just stopped like, stop For a second, and figure this thing out so that you can make that statement from that place of pride instead of from a place of, I know I'm being beaten, I'm just going to, I'm just going to be tougher than this. Because eventually you can't be tougher than it at some point. And I think that's one of the problems with type one. Type two as well, honestly, is that you can, you can pretend you're doing okay for a while. Right up until you're not? You know,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 10:26
that's right. Yeah. That's right. And I think it is, it is actually prevalent. Now, you mentioned type two, it is prevalent in the type two community as well, because you, you have lived a certain way. I mean, there are obviously there are different ages of diagnosis, but for the general population who are diagnosed as adults with type two, it's hard to shift your way of thinking eating lifestyle. And it's really challenging, too. I think of actually the the gentleman you had on with type two, who and it was really hard for him to accept as it is, is there a connection between I'm not gonna let it stop me and acceptance? What is this mean to live with this diagnosis for for type one, type two, that interferes with? How do I take care of myself? Do I want to take care of myself? How do I take care of myself? And if there's all the things, lack of resources, accessibility, support, community, family, all of those things that we need to continue to thrive? Those interfere, you know, with that ability to function and accept it?

Scott Benner 11:35
I mean, honestly, type one almost, does you a favor by just stopping taking care of yourself. I mean, it really does force you to do something. And then it's that level of understanding that that dictates Is this a five, a six, a seven and eight 910? Like, what is my what is my A one, say? What's my average blood sugar? With type two, you can, can ignore it for a good long time. And it may, you may feel tired, and then of course, get accustomed to feeling tired, and then something else might happen. You get accustomed to it, and it'll hit you, you know, all at once. You know, when it's probably too late, which is the reason why I bring this up because because this is all this talk aside. It's a very human reaction to say, I'm not giving up. It's it's so laudable, you know, it's why we're all here. Probably still. I've joked before that if I was on the Mayflower we'd live somewhere east of the first river we came on. Like, I can't get over that we're done. Let's just make a house right here. But, but other people see that river and they think like, no, most people, we're going to climb over. We're gonna get into a wagon, and go from here to Oregon. Are you kidding? Like, like, as safe as the world is right? Now? If I told you to walk to Oregon, you'd be like, I'm not doing that. I said no, no, the life you that you dream of Erika, it's a 3000 mile. Yeah, you'd be like, Nah, I'm sorry. I'm gonna write where I'm at. It sounds like so that there's something about people it's, it's, it's wonderful, right? But then you put it in this exact situation. And what what starts out as and what is mostly a great trait that will get you through life turns into the thing that's, it's stabbing you in the back and you don't realize it right away? I've never heard one person say it. And not mean it. If that makes sense. I don't let diabetes slow me down. I don't let diabetes get in my way. Like they always meet it. And so I don't know, like, I'm just so what do you do? If you're listening to this? And you find yourself thinking, I feel like that I feel like nothing stops me. I accomplish everything I want. But is the guy talking? He's onto something my A once he's like 8.5? Like, how do you shift that mindset to like put that that energy that desire to like triumph? Like how do you put it into the place where where you might actually figure out how to take care of yourself better?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 14:10
I think the answer depends on from which lens, you know who the age is the caregiver? Is it the teenager? Often times I think if you're a teen and thinking that you have this sense of you know, they don't often don't feel like they're invincible. It's hard to think forward, you know, complications. And you're, you're kind of in the moment. And so for a teenager, it's hard. It's hard to get them to that place of understanding of how to take care of yourself. I think there's I would go underneath what what is interfering with that process of acceptance of understanding that you know what, I really do need to take care of myself. And oftentimes, I think it is maybe there isn't a connection to a Mmm, did you process the diagnosis? Are you still carrying anger, unresolved anger? Are you trying to figure out your identity as a teenager? In spite of but also connected to your diabetes? And oftentimes, I think when that I know, we I keep bringing up this acceptance. And I think that's one of the things also on your list of, you know, what does that really mean to accept it? It is a process. But part of that what it means to accept is to integrate it into your life and know that you know, there is you can't live a healthy life, but you can't you can't ignore it.

Scott Benner 15:37
Do you talk ever about optimism bias?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 15:44
Yes, I think that's a really good Go ahead. And just really interesting thought

Scott Benner 15:47
there's, there's part of me that wants to take the list of all the, the biases that humans have, and just lose series about them. And the problem is, I've tried a couple of times, he can never find somebody who really is like, I could really dig in on this one. You know what I mean? Like, because I want to have that conversation, but an optimism bias, just as it's defined, a cognitive bias that causes someone to believe that they themselves are less likely to experience a negative event. It is also known as an unrealistic optimism, optimism or CU, comparative optimism, optimism bias is common. Throughout people it's saying doesn't matter your nationality or ethnicity or age, that it's a common feeling. And it's what I'm talking about. It's that it's, it's me watching my father smoke three packs of cigarettes a day, and him saying, like, it's not getting me and then that's what kills him. You know, because right up until it did, he's like, I went to the doctor doctor said, I always used to feel angry about this doctor told me he can't even tell him a smoker. And I used to think he can't smell that you smell like for ashtrays rubbed on a hot days foot. Like you don't I mean, like we're right, but maybe the gut, maybe the doctor never said that. But my dad would come home and say that, like they say they can't even tell. And eventually, you know, he had congestive heart failure and he died. And so. But why is that? Like, why do we see the old lady on the news? Who lived to 100. And in our minds, we're all like, that'll be me. She meanwhile, it's so rare. They got to put her on the news. I don't know why I just don't I don't understand why. like common sense, doesn't take over and say to you, I'm not going to be that person. I don't know if I've shared this with you. But as my mom had health issues as she's gotten older over the last couple of years, I went to my wife earnestly, and I said, I'm 51. And I said, I am going to begin treating the next 15 years like they are the last 15 years I have. I was like no and then everybody right away said, Oh no, no, you're gonna Oh my God, I didn't say I was gonna die when I was 16. Right? I said, I'm gonna treat the next 15 years like they're the last ones. Because the last six years of my mom's life have not been she hasn't been at the waterpark. You know what I mean? Like, like, but we all feel that way. We're like, Oh, if I lived at in your mind, you imagine that on your 80th day when you drop dead? You're in the backyard playing croquette with a with a with a brandy. You know, I'll just hit a couple balls. Oh, and then over. Doesn't it doesn't work that way for everybody. Everybody doesn't get to be the lady on the news. And I don't know how that thinking isn't obvious and how it doesn't translate to health? Because that's all I think about when I think about my kids health. You know, like, this is it. We need to figure this out now because laters too late. And damage is happening. Like I don't know. I don't know, maybe there's something wrong with me. But that's

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 18:46
no, I think that's because you're you're you're a realist, but you're also have an optimistic, hopeful outlook. In life. You're not a you're not a pessimist. You're not, you know, doom and gloom. But I think you're able to apply, you have that sense of hope. And you want to give your children a long, healthy life. And you're able to apply that and say, okay, but we need to be realistic with what we need to do in order to have as long of a life as possible. And I think we all have a sense of you know, optimism and hope that we are going to live a healthy long life. But what you're what we're trying to figure out is what is the difference between those who have that hope, but ignore reality, versus those who have that hope and couldn't attend to like your current immediate needs? Yeah. Right. Like we're trying to differentiate between those two. And I think the bias piece, you know, we all have certain biases and distortions that we believe. And part of you know, becoming attuned to your, your way of thinking and acting and living in your behaviors is understanding some of those, you know, biases and distortions.

Scott Benner 19:57
So is that done in therapy?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 20:00
Well, yes, it can be done. We can just talk

Scott Benner 20:03
somebody into right now like, like, throwing a little cold water in their face and say, I'm probably not going to be okay. 30 years from now with my nine a one say?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 20:13
Well, yes, I think I, as you know, I definitely appreciate the value of cognitive behavioral therapy. And it's understanding how our thoughts affect how we feel, which obviously impact what we do. And that can go it's the cognitive triangle, we can start with our actions which impact how we feel which impact how we think about ourselves, it can go at any which way. And so part of the initial work that I do with a lot of my clients is understanding what are those lies is the easiest way to call them that we believe about ourselves, or about our worlds that impact what we do and how we feel. And then and then we want to break down those that those lies or distortions and replace them with truths. Yeah, so that is something you can do yes, in therapy.

Scott Benner 20:57
I'm thinking of the things that I I know aren't true about myself that I, I lie to myself about as you were saying that I was like, Oh, I have some like,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 21:05
like, what do you want to share? I

Scott Benner 21:13
do today, I'm going to tell you about the Contour. Next One blood glucose meter. If you're using insulin, you need a great accurate meter, you need the Contour. Next One, I'm gonna go to the website, just type here. Contour next one.com forward slash juicebox. My voice just does that when I look forward, like anyway, when you get there, you're gonna see a lot of information. Big Buy Now button, where if you click on it, I'll click on it now. It takes you to a number of places online where you can get the contour and the test strips walmart.com, Amazon, Walgreens CVS pharmacy, Meijer, Kroger, target Rite Aid. Here's the thing. Why would you do that? Why would you just like continue to do your meter stuff the way you usually do? Because the Contour Next One may be cheaper in cash out of your pocket, then through your insurance. This is something worth checking into. Now why would you go to that trouble? Because you say to me, Scott already have a meter, I don't care. But you should care because the Contour Next One is super easy to use, and incredibly accurate. And those were important things important, important important. They are so important that I am here to tell you about it over and over and over again. So that you will go to contour next one.com Ford slash juice box and get yourself a great meter that has Second Chance test strips, so that if you don't get quite enough blood the first time, no big deal right back and you're doing it again, without wasting the strip or ruining the test accuracy, contour next.com forward slash juicebox get the meter that my daughter has been using for years. The meter that has a super bright light for nighttime viewing, and absolutely easy to read and simple screen and a design that allows you to easily carry it and hold it. This is it. I don't need to tell you more super accurate super easy to use great light. Second Chance test strips might be cheaper in cash and you're paying for insurance. I don't know what else you want. Contour next.com forward slash use Box A links in the show notes. Links at juicebox podcast.com. And I'll throw in here a little extra for good luck. Don't forget touch by type one touch by type one.org and on Facebook and Instagram. Alright, we're gonna get right back to Erica. I think I cry later in this one so bonus

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 23:50
like, what do you want to share?

Scott Benner 23:51
I definitely think I look taller than I am. The small one, I I've told myself that I carry my weight better than my size. Which is not true. Like that's not like I look at if I looked at myself reasonably, I'd be like, Oh, I should lose 20 pounds. But but I've taught myself that I have broad shoulders, or that like, like that. Like it's okay, because I can carry it up here. And it's visually it's okay. And it runs along the same lines. This one actually happens to be reasonably true. But the mechanism is similar. I look younger than I am. And somehow I'll talk myself into making that think I am younger than I am. But I'm not I just appear younger. If you meet me at first, and I'm and I'm you'll look at me and you'll you know, I mean beyond. He's 35 I could I could pass for 40 Right, right. Yeah, totally. Yeah. And so, and then I start talking and I'm goofy and then people shave off yours for that because they think like an adult wouldn't speak like this that's All lovely, and everything, but my knees still hurts and my back is stiff. And I, you know, I still go outside sometimes to do something and go to lift something up and think, man, you should not pick this up. Right? You know, but I feel I've talked myself into believing I'm younger than I am. That's all and even like, there are times you can. Okay, there are times.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 25:23
I like pause, do you want to share this?

Scott Benner 25:27
There are times that I hear things on this podcast, that somebody sharing is a negative that they've learned how to get past for instance, and I'll think, Oh, God, I do that sometimes. Yes, yes. And, and then I can picture where in my life I do it. And then I don't do anything about it. Right. But one of the things that I've, I'm disappointed with myself all the time I fixed last week. So that's exciting. It was, but it always everything else ended with me crying, but hold on a second. Oh, I'm sorry. That's okay. I, I grew up, it's not a person who makes eye contact during conversation. And I recognize that is a younger person that has younger adult, and I ignored it. And I told myself, it's okay, because when you talk to people, you're entertaining the group. You know what I mean? Like you're you're doing because I am, I can be that person in a group where I'm like, you're looking here, and you're looking there. And sometimes you just talk, you know, but I don't look people in the face. And I decided to do something about it. When I recognized one day, it's the silliest thing. But my son used the pacifier for the first couple years of his life. And then when he stopped using it, I had this horrible feeling that I had missed what His face looked like, while he was using it, if this makes sense or not. And I thought, I'm having conversations with people. And I'm not looking at them. I'm like, not seeing their face. And so I started to more constructively I say to myself, like, you have to look people in the eye. And in the beginning, it was hard. Like, I don't know, I bet Oh, my God. And then I got past that. I'm like, Okay, it's not trouble for me to look you in the face anymore. And, and that's the thing that I do now. So now, fast forward, my son gets his first real job. And we have to take him far away, to set him up for his first real job. And I get there with him on a Wednesday, and I'm going to leave on a Saturday, and we're very busy. We're buying furniture and like, getting his cable turned on and getting food and buying a pots and pans like everything. Yeah, all the adulting things. Yes, he had nothing, you know, plus, he's not sure he's gonna be there for very long. So we're trying not to, like, overload him with stuff, you know, like, you don't need seven pans like, here's a couple I think you'll be okay with. And as this time is going on, and we're spending it together, I keep thinking, I'm gonna leave in a couple of days, I'm gonna leave in four days, I'm gonna leave in three days. I'm upset. I don't want him to be upset. So I'm not going to tell him I'm upset. And finally, I thought that's not right. Like, that's not right. He needs to know how upset I am that I'm leaving him here. You know, so I said to him, I want you to know that over the next couple of days, you are going to look up at me. And it's going to seemingly be out of nowhere. And I'm going to be crying. And I was like, and it's not because I'm sad. It's this is such a great opportunity for you, you're going to do great at this. I'm not worried about you. It's nothing like that. I just and I said I could tell you that I'm going to miss you, which would be true. It was like But the core thing here and I second. It's me. I don't want to leave you here. And I think it's because my dad left me. I said I think that's why this is I feel like I'm abandoning you here. And I'm like, I know I'm not. I'm like you're going to be great. But I don't want to stand here swallowing all that. And us that just have these awkward moments together. Because you're looking at me and I'm thinking, oh my god, what are you doing? Take him home. Don't leave him here. Like don't leave him here the way somebody left you like don't do that. Plus, I'm adopted. So technically, I've been abandoned twice. So so I'm like, I'm sitting there having that thought. I'm like, I'm gonna share this with him instead. And my son is like my wife. Like they have the Irish thing going, like, you know what I mean? Like the palace is on fire. Dead bodies are falling all around you and they're like, this is gonna be fine. Yeah, doesn't matter. Let's not show like anything. But I could look at him sometimes. And he looked like he was five in his face because he was worried not about me, by the way about this whole thing. Right? And so I'm like, I'm like We're adults. And I don't want to, I don't want there to be any confusion here. I don't want him to think my dad's mad or sad or scared that I say, I'm gonna suck at this or something, I'm just gonna let them know why I might be acting strangely. So I did that. And then, and he gave me a nice hug. And we sat together for a minute. And then when I went to leave, I cried. Yeah. And he was uncomfortable. And I'm like, I'm sorry, I'll be okay. And then if you I mean, to finish this story out, like I got in the car, I had to drive away. And I screamed a couple of times, like, in a very, like, very, like, not focused primal way, I had to stop myself from like, not living outside of his door for the rest of my life, I guess. And, and I, I kept going. And I just, I did the same thing. This is gonna sound so strange, that I learned in Dr. Sardos book about back pain. I just told myself it was going to be okay. That the things that I was worried about, they weren't real. I reminded myself about the good situation he was in, and that this was going to be okay. But I'll tell you that I had to drive from his house to my daughter's, which is a different story. College. So I was in the car for three hours by myself. And about 45 minutes into it, I thought, I need to call somebody who loves me. And I called my brother and my brother and I chatted about this a little bit, and then something else, because I was making myself upset. And and you know what I mean? So anyway, what are you talking about that, but

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 31:43
no, but that's such a beautiful gift you gave your son, and we'll just being authentic with how you feel. I think often as parents and connecting us to diabetes in the government, we feel like many caregivers will share with me that they can't, they feel like they don't want to cry in front of their child, they don't want to make it feel like worse than it is. But I think that's okay, it gives them permission to be upset or cry. So I think you gave him the gift of like being authentic with how you're feeling in the moment. And then you, you worked your way through interrupting that those lies of that narrative that you had experienced with your father. And you were breaking that cycle. And also, replacing it with truth that it is going to be okay, this is not the lie that you are that you know, your brain is like flirting with, like, you know, this is not the truth. The truth is you love him, you've set him up for success, you're not abandoning him, and you reminded yourself of all those truths. And, and then you did something and it helps you feel better reach out to a connected, you know, to feel connected with a loved one. So you worked yourself through some of those techniques all by yourself, you did reality checking and all those things. Well, they

Scott Benner 32:55
a couple of them were just out of like, like sheer, like necessity. You're right, because as I was like you like when my wife and I didn't get pregnant on the first time on purpose. And so it was a shock. We'd been married for a couple of years, we were talking about having kids, but we did not purposely get pregnant with call. And then in the months leading up to her having the baby. We started talking about daycare, and I was the one that said I don't think I can leave the kid in daycare, it feels like it feels like we I told her back then we were so young, I said it feels like we bought a puppy to put it in the kennel. Like that's what it felt like to me. And I was like, and I was like so I said to my wife, like you should stay home with the baby. She laughed at me because I had no prospects for any kind of reasonable work. And she was doing pretty well. And then she said, you know, you should do what I think you'd be a good stay at home dad. So there's something I don't care what anybody says like I had to make a number of, of adjustments and how I was raised and how I grew up. The first one was in the first year he was alive. I realized that my wife would be doing things almost naturally, that I didn't know to do, and that I had to sort of give myself over to this if he was going to be served in a way that he needed, right. And plus I was I was cheating myself. Because I was just caregiving. And my wife was being cheated because she wasn't having this connection with my son. I was like, Well, I'm gonna at least honor all of this if I'm gonna do this. And that was kind of my first leap. But then when you do that, and you just give yourself over to it. When he like turn when you go from being a guy who was like raised to like, you know, go kill something and find a pretty girl, get her to have sex with you and then buy a car, like you know what I mean? Like go dominate things and like when you're raised like that, you know, being at home with a baby day to day. I don't know if anybody's ever done it, but it's a lot and it's monotonous and you have to find joy in it. You have to find joy and things that you can't imagine there's joy in at some point and And that just bonds you together with that kid in a way that I'm standing there now thinking, I know, he's been out of college for seven months, he needs to get the hell out of here. Like he was starting to get stir crazy, you know? And all this is good for him. And all I could think was, I think I could afford for him to live here longer. Like, why would it matter if he stayed here? Like you because the house is very still without the kids. It's a weird feeling. It's not good. And, and my wife and I seem to be doing okay with it. But as I was in his apartment, I was like, why don't I just tell him like, he doesn't want to do this. So he doesn't really want to be an adult like I could. I could throw some money around, I'll take another advertiser, and I'll keep them in my house forever, you know what I mean? Or something like that. And, and not to say that out loud was hard. But anyway, we were talking about how to break things that you don't want to do. Yeah, sorry. That's all. Yes, I'm sorry.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 35:58
No, it's a good. I think you modeled a lot through all that you shared?

Scott Benner 36:04
Does any of that help people who are lying to themselves about why they're okay with their current situation? I hope it does.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 36:13
I. Well, I think you you model that, you know, that? Is it? Is it healthy to, to listen to the lie? No, no. And to you, you have done the work, you know, I don't know if you've been in therapy, or you've done it yourself, or you've read books, but you are, you are learning and applying how to interrupt those lies. And that that pattern thinking that you were exposed to as a child

Scott Benner 36:40
in the in the car and the drive. Before I call my brother. It was fascinating. By the way, I mean, I did a tiny bit of therapy for like a year when I was in my 20s. Other than that I haven't read, I'm embarrassed about how few books I've read. As a matter of fact, once when I was on a book tour for my book, my publisher said stop telling people you don't read. But but I'm in the car, and I'm like, It's okay. And I'm calm, and I'm okay. And then in no time at all. If he I just if I were to just think of him, then it burns like up through your chest through your neck into your head. And it's a it's not a voice like a voice in your head. But you start thinking like, no, that's not right. I'm leaving him there. At one point i i solidly imagined that I had just left him in a box. You know what I mean? Like, I just I driven to another state put my son in a box and I left is how it kind of felt to me. And, and then I'm like, okay, don't think that and don't think that for your own sanity, and for and for his happiness. Because he this is the game, right? Like, you make a baby, you put it in a situation and then you don't go, yeah, it's unfair. To me, my wife, and I, these little bastards have abandoned us again, it's fine. But um, but it's the right thing, you know. And so I don't know, like I did later. It's because of this podcast, because it's talking to so many people keep kind of running through ideas in your head. And I thought to myself, there were a number of times in that car, that there was a dark path in front of me that if I didn't avoid it, I could see how people run down them and get lost. Do you know what I mean? And then that made me feel badly for people who, who get drawn down those paths. I felt lucky to not have that happen to me, honestly.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 38:46
So yeah, you were able to interrupt the that spiral, right? The spiral, thinking of that life feels like it's over, it's not worth living. And you were able to find something within yourself like, okay, that now's the time, I need to reach out to somebody, and that's hard for people to do. Yeah, it's when they're, when they're really in that low place of that really low depressed thinking, and they, you know, kind of spiraled down to do what you did. It can be really challenging for people. And you also, it kind of feels like you know, grounding, you grounded yourself to the present moment. Whether you're in the car, you're going up to paying attention to what you're doing. And that's something that people can do when they're in the middle of that spiral. And feeling like there's no hope to ground yourself to the present. Maybe it's looking at three, there's nothing all sorts of techniques. You can Google them for grounding techniques. But looking at you're looking at three things that you can see two things that you can touch one thing that you can hear it there, it doesn't really matter which way you go, but like bringing yourself to the present moment to interrupt that spiral can be helpful.

Scott Benner 39:56
I'll tell you where it helped the next day so to give a little other context, through odd circumstances, my son had to be in a part of, I think I'm supposed to say Arden's in Chicago and college. She's she choked ones out of the pocket. She's like, if people are just telling him in Chicago, she's not. Okay. So basically, my son needed to be across the country, in the same state that my daughter was in, but three and a half hours from each other in this state. And they had to leave on the same day, and they had to start either class or their job on the same day. So I had to, I had to leave him that night to drive the three and a half hours to where my wife was with my daughter so that we could drive home, right. And it's a 14 hour drive home. And so I get to her, she's in a hotel with my wife. And I'm like, you know, I don't know, when I get there. Maybe midnight because I kept hanging on. I was supposed to go have dinner with my daughter, and I just, I couldn't leave my son. And I was like, I can't I can't I texted Kelly, I'm like, I can't make myself leave. You know, like, I'm trying, you know, and so I missed dinner, which then I felt bad about that. And but I'm sure they all sat around and joke that dad's crying right now he can't come to dinner, which would have been right. And so I get, I get to the, to the hotel, my wife's already in bed, it's late. And I lay down. And, and she's like, are you okay? And I'm like, I did the wrong thing. Like, I'm like, I just I was like, I did the wrong thing. And then I get really emotional. Like, I'm, it's, I come in and I'm okay with it now, and I'm still upset right now. Right? Like, so. I'm like I did, she's like, No, you did. And I was like, No, I did, I left in there. That was like, I was like, you know, like, I shouldn't have done and, and so I got through that. Okay. And then the reason I'm sharing that with us, because the next day when I said goodbye to Arden after lunch, she's like, it's okay, if you want to cry. I'm like, I'm okay. Like, and she did. She was like, what? Were the tears, like, when you're the guy that cries lets me know, I'm gonna be missed. Like, when is this happening? Mom's over there, like an Irish statue, like getting ready to go. Like, like, you know, where are you? And I just said, I told her, I was like, she's like, you're gonna cry. I'm like, I'm not like, this is a good spot for you. I'm like, It's okay. You know, and I'm like, I'm really upset that I'm not gonna see you, but I don't think I'm gonna cry. And she was like, All right, like, seen her like, she was like, a little let down. She's like me. So she was, I don't know, she was joking with me. And I got a little teary. And I said, I am really going to miss you. And, you know, we'll be back to visit in a few months. And I left and we got out in the hallway. And Kelly's like, You didn't cry. And I was like, I think I figured it out last night, you know. So anyway, I don't know why I'm I just really to bring this back around. If you are saying I don't let diabetes slow me down. Because your variability is good, and you don't get low, when you're out playing soccer, or you figured out how to eat, I don't know, cheese fries without spiking for three hours, then then diabetes isn't slowing you down. And that's amazing. But if you were one of the people that I've spoken to who said diabetes isn't slowing me down. And there's a lot more to that sentence that you're not sharing, I hope that you can find a way to push through that stuff and, and get to a place where you really are, you know, it's a word people dance around all the time. And I don't understand why they do. People try not to say control around diabetes, but I mean, I'd like for you to get into a better decision making tree so that you have outcomes, you know what I mean? That are more reliable?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 43:52
Yes, well, I I appreciate your vulnerability and sharing that your story with your precious children. I think the the mindset of diabetes isn't going to stop me that can also be like a family culture mindset, that maybe as expressed at diagnosis, because they want to instill hope that this you know, you can still play the sports and you can still do all the things that you can eat the cake, and you can get married and have babies if you're, you know, want to and can. I think that that mindset, it can be healthy, but it also can prevent the space for the emotional processing, which, you know, you die diabetes is not going to stop me but Batang I'm really sad and angry. Why did I get this? And if there's no space for that expression of frustration, then maybe you just adopt the diabetes isn't going to stop me I can't I can't let it stop me. And but I still have all these other feelings. And I don't really know how to control it. Yeah. So I think what start off maybe as a really positive, hopeful mindset of your family system, it can maybe wreak havoc on how you process it as a child or teen or young adult or a grown adult. And interfere with Yeah, how to actually manage control, that your sugars,

Scott Benner 45:20
I think it also matters as you're talking like it. In my mind, I'm imagining it matters who you are to me, because there are certain people who hear that, and they were always going to be the people, it wasn't going to get in the way off, right. Like, there were certain people who were just going to be like, didn't matter what happened to them, they were going to like pop out of it, you know, right, with a 2% body fat with a shine on them. look amazing. This is going my way. Like they're just there's some people who just that works for them. I wonder if I wonder if it's not a blanket statement that's given at the beginning. And if you don't know that when it's happening, like what happens when someone says, Don't worry, this isn't going to get in your way, when you know about yourself, you are the kind of person who falls down rabbit holes and things get in your way, then it just probably feels like a lie. It probably feels empty. Like when like when my wife sometimes like when my son was looking for a job, anything he applied for she'd like, you'd be good at that. And she's like, Mom, I have not said one thing yet that you were like, no, don't do that. You know, she's like, you're my mom, this is what you're gonna say. My wife later said to me later, yeah, my wife later said to me, there was something he applied for. I was like, Oh, that would not be good for him. But but she didn't. She didn't tell him right. But I wonder like, we are who we are. And a platitude, which is really what this is. Right? Don't worry. Plenty of people. First let's list some famous people. We know Westside who have type one diabetes, you didn't know that this guy had it and Bobby Clark, for the flyers like, Wait, you're bringing up 70s hockey, like, okay, you know, like, um, it didn't stop him and blah, blah, blah. And, and I think that's meant that way. But I think some people hear that now that I've spoken to more people have more of a depressed mindset, they're probably like, they probably hear that and think, oh, it's gonna get me, you know, like, I'm not going to be the one. And then the person who gives you the platitude is like, Oh, I did my job, I told him, it's not going to stop them. And then the people who aren't stopped by it, we're never going to be stopped by it to begin with. It's like me taking credit for being able to work through this complicated thing that might have fell somebody else like I can't take credit for that's just how my brain works. Like, my easily my brain could work a different way. And I could have driven my car into a tree, you know, like, and just been like, Everything's over. So Erica, every time we get down to these conversations, I realize there's no way

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 47:53
sorry. No, it's it's it's complicated, right? It's it's your mindset. It's your family upbringing, your culture, you're up? I know, we've talked about this a lot about like, you know, what is it for your resilience? And what does that actually mean? How is that nature versus nurture all of those things? But I think yeah, being mindful of is it a platitude, and how is that landing for whoever you're sharing that with? is really important to remember? Yeah,

Scott Benner 48:24
I mean, if you're a health care provider, or you're the parent, or a loved one of somebody who has been diagnosed that you can't just run around being like, don't worry. And there are also people who you can't pile on them, like, Oh, my God, there's a lot to worry about here, like, equally as bad for that person. And who's who, in that scenario, and by the way, most people most of y'all listening, you don't even know who you are, in that scenario you think you do. But you're often not the person you think you are. You know, like sometimes it's you think, Oh, I can handle this. But I mean, I've talked to plenty of people who get caught up in almost like OCD, like rituals about keeping their kids safe. And, you know, they say things that are, I mean, one of the things we'll talk about in another episode is how, like, you see online, somebody says something, and then they get attacked. And if you really look at it, you realize the person attacking them is trying to quell a fear in their own mind. And like, See, you're, you know, you're not always who you think you are. I'm not who I think I am. You know, like, so. It's interesting. It's we're

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 49:25
all Yeah, we're all on a journey of becoming more self aware. But just to be aware, that you're not self aware is the first step. Perhaps.

Scott Benner 49:36
This is completely inappropriate. So I won't say that. Well, now I'm going to say because I thought I used it when I was younger. And somebody would be like, what's with that person? I'd say, Listen, crazy. People don't know they're crazy. You got to cut them a break. You know, and now I've come to realize like, none of us really know ourselves that well. And, you know, it's just, you're trying to figure it out as you go like when it hit Me, I was like, Oh, I'm upset because I feel abandoned. I was like, that's why I don't want to do to my son the worst thing that's ever happened to me, even though that is not what's happening right now. It was, you know, fascinating. So But that's so

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 50:17
profound that you were able to make that connection. I am feeling this way because I was treated this way. But this is not what's happening now. I mean, that those two sentences, I don't know how you got there. But that's, that's pretty profound and hard to do. For many people.

Scott Benner 50:34
Well, it was self preservation because I thought my heart was going to explode. And I, and I don't, I'm not prone to like panic attacks. So I wasn't there was going to be no outlet for it. Like, I felt like I was going to explode. You know, so it's, it's just, I don't know, like, I just thought like, I've got to figure out what this is. Or I'm gonna, like, I felt like I was gonna die. Like I like there's I know, I wasn't going to but it felt like that.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 51:03
Well, that's what people say, who feel like they're having a panic attack is that they feel like they're going to die, then truly, they believe it and they feel it. Yeah, I

Scott Benner 51:10
didn't get to that part. I was just like, I was like, I've got to like figure this out. Like I, I did my best to step out of myself.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 51:19
Had you had well, I was gonna ask more questions about that. But I was gonna ask, have you had those connections, those thoughts before? Like, this is why I feel this way because of abandonment.

Scott Benner 51:32
No, that was the first time that was,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 51:34
yeah. Oh, wow. I

Scott Benner 51:36
was like, Oh, this is because my dad left. And I was like, okay, like, and they I mean, the adopted thing is like, I joke about it a lot here. I really don't think about whatever. But if I start thinking about my dad leaving, it's not lost on me that he's the second father that that apparently was okay with being like, Hilliard. And because that is, and then I look back on leaving my son at college. And maybe I'm lying. The first time I left my son at college. I found myself wondering how my dad could have left me. Like, it didn't I didn't put it together. Yeah, I asked the question of myself. Like, if this is what it felt like to leave my son somewhere safe. That was good for him. How could my dad have left but I quickly transitioned into He must really not care about me. Like, because if he felt this way, how could he have gone? And done it? Yeah, right. Right. And so but I never got past that. And that was four years ago. So this was the first time I've thought about it since then. And it was because it was more. It's finite. Like for all of you have young kids, like the college thing hurts, but then they come back like a bunch of times a year. And or they'll play a sport or you'll go there or something like that, you actually end up seeing each other more frequently than you think as long as it's not like great distance away. But this thing, I thought, like, he could be good at this. They could offer him a different position. He might never come back here. Like and like, he might never, like he might never live in my house again. And I know some people are like, I don't know how everybody feels about their kids. I like my children. Like, you know what I mean? Like, I like them being here, they bring something to the conversation. It makes me I'm gonna tell you one more thing. So the other night, I cook for people. I don't know what that says about me. I don't love food myself. But I like cooking for other people. And I make cookies every once in a while. And sometimes nobody even eats them. And I don't care. I love making them for people. Like I see like my kid pill cookie out. I'm like, This is great. Like, you know, it feels good. So we have these boxes of and when your kids leave, they always forget something. So we have the like forgotten boxes that have to be ups to people. And I said to my wife, I'm like, I'm going to make some cookies, and I'm going to put them in the boxes. My son stuff, my daughter stuff. And my son's girlfriend who left the hair straightener here apparently is my job to send to her. But I'm like, I'm gonna give her some cookies to write. So. So the other night, I got my work done. And I thought I'm going to make the cookies now. And I made them and as I was halfway through it, I felt bereft. And my wife's like, are you okay? And I just go, it doesn't feel the same. And she's like, what? And I was like, making the cookies doesn't feel the same. And I was like, I don't know why it's hollow. And I'm, I'm so annoyed. I just want to throw them away. was like I don't care that I'm sending them to them. I don't care that they're going to get them I don't care if the like them. Like there. I couldn't there's one for you. I can't figure that one out yet. Like I'll get to it, but it felt weird. And I didn't like it is the best thing I can tell you. So anyway, he

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 55:02
feels that feels like growing up. It's grief you're grieving. You know, I stay horrible. Yes. Painful. I

Scott Benner 55:09
did eat the cookie slider just so you know. I sent them some but I was like, right, but a couple. Anyway, do you think people listen to this and think wow, Scott's found a way to trick this woman into giving him free therapy?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 55:25
I don't know. I haven't had you sign a consent form?

Scott Benner 55:32
I have not. Did this conversation do justice to the the idea of that I brought up in the beginning. I don't know, what was the idea? I don't want diabetes slow me down.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 55:45
I'm getting. Yeah, God. Gosh, I mean, perhaps we probably could even do a part b i feel like dissecting it further if we wanted, but I think we it was a good conversation. Yeah,

Scott Benner 55:58
I just I listened to, it's gonna feel weird that I shift gears like this so quickly, because I was legitimately just crying a little while ago. But um, I think about this podcast, the way I think about my kids. And the way I think about everything, like I, as I'm bringing up stories about myself, they are absolutely true stories, but in my mind, they're gonna move this conversation and the people listening in a certain direction. So I am a tiny bit Machiavellian about it, which is bizarre, because I'm an idiot, Erica, but this, I'm good at this. I'll get past the fact that I can't add or subtract, but this thing I might be pretty good at. So I just, I really feel very strongly about it. Like, like that statement. Every time someone says it. It's like a bell rings in my head. I was like, somebody needs to do something about that. Like, like, you know, people can't live their whole life celebrating, that they're ignoring their body deteriorating, but at least they went to Burning Man. Like I like the only mean, like, because that is how it feels to me when it said sometimes. And it's not, it doesn't need to be that way. You know, like me, if you're strong enough to ignore high blood sugars, and all the horrible things that come with it to go do the things that you really want to do, then dammit, you're strong enough to figure out how to get your blood sugar lower to begin with, you know, I don't know. And I just feel like, I feel like that there's a conversation somewhere that will spark somebody into doing that thing. And if I've got to lay my soul out so that you people take better care of yourself, then that's what I'm going to do. Because obviously, at the end of this year from now, Eric is going to tell me that I'm making this podcast to take care of myself, because I feel like nobody took care of me or something like heavy like, you know, like on the last day, I'm gonna be leading in the microphone we like. Go on. Alright, that sounds right. Is there in the last minute just to tease it out for the next episode? There there's something about how I grew up that leads me to want to help other people, right?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 58:06
Oh, absolutely. Yeah, you have a helper helper mentality. Yeah. You want to pay it forward in a way that maybe you didn't receive as a child? I would nothing wrong with that. No, I

Scott Benner 58:17
don't know. I think I'd prefer to have the guy at the club mentality. Like, those people look like they're having a great time. So it gets Friday night, a little high there dancing. I've never done that in my life. I'm busy making sure people have cookies.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 58:33
Well, I think I wanted to add to Scott that I think the people who are maybe saying, you know, the diabetes isn't getting in the way. I think they ultimately want to, they want to though they want or they want to know how to manage their diabetes. And so what is that? That's the fascinating piece of like, what is blocking that? Because I think they don't, they don't want to ignore it because they ultimately know what's happening to their body.

Scott Benner 59:01
Oh, I truly believe that. I don't think that I've ever spoken to anyone who doesn't care. Yeah, never, never once they have varying degrees of success. They have varying degrees of guilt, they have great degrees of stress. But in the end, it's that thing you said once got out about, about the about burning out. And that it's that the hardest part is that you're trying so hard, over and over and over again and you're not getting a result like that. That's the That's what burnout is like. It's not the end when you give up. It's it's the part where you're like I don't have the right tools. Like somebody gave you a screwdriver to like nail the put a nail and you get up every day and spend 24 hours trying to make that screwdriver and a hammer doesn't work you know and Yes. Anyway, I that's how that's how it strikes me is that I've never once talked to somebody with diabetes who I thought oh, they don't care. I've never thought that

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:00:00
Right, right. Yeah. And I don't think you do either. I think it's just that that's where the empathy pieces of like, I know, I know they want to change. And, you know, I hope that they are able to find that what is that piece that's preventing them from getting to that place of acceptance?

Scott Benner 1:00:18
It's hard. But Well, I appreciate you doing this, I hope. I hope everybody appreciates me giving myself up like this to hope. Because I guess there's, I'm in the middle. I'm like, why am I doing this? Like, why? Because a lot of people are gonna hear this. And I'm just like, I'm like, I'm crying in the cards, screaming and blah, blah, blah. Anyway, all right. Well,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:00:41
I don't think people talk about you know, the emptiness stage very much. So I think you probably normalized a lot of people's experience in a really healthy way.

Scott Benner 1:00:51
Listen, I'm gonna tell you something. The hardest thing I did in the last week was turn my wife down when she was like, we could have another baby. And I was like, Ooh, no. That's not okay. That kid would end up really poorly raised in school for this now, it's, I at first thought that it was the past of time that I, I was upset about, and there is some of that, like, I just like, at one point, my son's like, what's wrong? And I said, I didn't think my life would go by this quickly. You know, and, and I just like, I'm like, I always knew we were going to get here. I just don't understand how it's happening. Yes, yeah. That's all because I can like, I can see him in my head at like, different stages of his life. And it was like, how did we get past that so quickly? Like, get away? How did uh, it's just the weirdest thing about time a day takes forever, a week takes forever a month goes by and you know, and you're like, oh, it's New Year's Eve again. Like, but how's that possible? Because every day felt like it took forever, you know?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:01:55
Anyway, I'm gonna you're encouraging me. I'm gonna go be very present and focused with my children today. Appreciate where they are sure that

Scott Benner 1:02:03
bother. Thank you. Good. 15 minutes. You're very welcome. Well, a huge thanks to Erica for coming on the show again and sharing her insights with us. Don't forget Erica forsyth.com is where you can find her. And I have it here somewhere. If you live in California, Utah, Oregon, and Florida, you can use Erica. And she's adding more states all the time. So keep checking back at Erica forsyth.com. I'd like to thank the Contour Next One blood glucose meter. Why am I thanking a blood glucose meter you say? Well for sponsoring the Juicebox Podcast and for being amazing. Contour next one.com forward slash juice box get yourself an accurate, reliable and easy to carry meter.

Hey, if you enjoyed this, you should check out the private Facebook group for Juicebox Podcast. It's called Juicebox Podcast type one diabetes. And there are over 33,000 members in there. People just like you talking about using insulin, and all of the things that go with that. Thank you so much for listening. I'll be back very soon with another episode of The Juicebox Podcast. If you're looking for more episodes with Erica, go to juicebox podcast.com. Scroll to the top in the menu and check that mental wellness series. You'll find a whole bunch of stuff there with Erica. Though, though, that was two very clunky sentences, but I don't have it in me to re record them. So juicebox podcast.com mental wellness more stuff with Erica, head on over again. Thanks for listening. I'll be back very soon with another episode.

#833 Very Strange Basal

Katherine has type 1 diabetes and she talks managment with Scott.

+ Click for EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Scott Benner 0:00
Hello friends, and welcome to episode 833 of the Juicebox Podcast.

This episode is very interesting. 18 year old Catherine and I are having a conversation. She's talking about how it's going with her diabetes. And then suddenly something strikes me as being not quite right. And we begin to talk about the management of her type one and how she's using insulin. Before you know it, Catherine and I are texting each other, trying to get things straight. And then she comes back on the show. Anyway, it's very, it's not it's not as confusing as I'm making it sound she came on. Something sounded wonky. We talked it through on the podcast. Then I chatted with her infrequently for a couple of days by text message, and then she came back on the show to tell me how it went. Anyway, that's what I should just said the first time. Also, I should have said that nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast is considered advice, medical or otherwise, always consult a physician before making any changes to your health care plan are becoming bold with insulin. And don't forget, please go to T one D exchange.org. Forward slash juice box, fill out that survey. It takes fewer than 10 minutes. It helps diabetes research. And you can be a big part of it right from your sofa, T one D exchange.org forward slash juicebox. This episode of The Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by Omni pod. And Omni pod makes the Omni pod five and the Omni pod dash. I'll tell you more about each of them in the ad. But for now all you need to know is Omni pod.com forward slash juice box. That's where you go to get started right now with the tubeless insulin pump that my daughter has been wearing since she was four years old. The podcast is also sponsored today by us Med and US med is the place where Arden gets her diabetes supplies. And you could to get your free benefits check right now at 888-721-1514. Or you can always go to us med.com forward slash juicebox. Get your diabetes supplies the way we do.

Katherine 2:29
I'm Katherine and I've been a type one diabetic since February 22 2021. And I live in Connecticut.

Scott Benner 2:36
Wow. Just a year and a month almost. Yep. Katherine, are you 12 years old or are you just have a very young voice?

Katherine 2:44
I must have a very young voice. I'm 18. Okay,

Scott Benner 2:47
well, okay. 18 is young. Don't worry. But still, you sound like you're younger, even so I was like, Oh, I sometimes you know, I don't read the notes. Catherine. I don't really know what I'm doing when we sit down. Yeah, I'm just sort of like, yesterday, I recorded with somebody who's been on the show before, did an amazing job. I really enjoyed talking to them. And we're six minutes into it. And I'm like, I think I know this person. So we figured it out as we were going and I was so I was actually very embarrassed. And I said to her I was like Maddie, I feel like we met at the mall. And I knew everything about you except your name. And I was standing there having that conversation where you're like, oh my god, it's you. And then you walk away and say to your like the person with you like Who was that? They're like, it's Scott. You go. Ah, I couldn't think of the name. Anyway. 18 diagnosed a year ago. 17 Have you even left for college yet?

Katherine 3:42
Not? Yeah, I'm a senior in high school. Wow. Wow. When do you graduate? Like any day? Yeah, June, June 10.

Scott Benner 3:49
No kidding. Congratulations. I mean, yeah. Are you gonna graduate? Yes. And congratulations. I have to go to summer school. Scott. I need three more credits. Do you are you planning on going to college?

Katherine 4:04
Uh, yes. I'm gonna be I'm gonna study for elementary education.

Scott Benner 4:07
Oh, that's lovely. Was that always your plan? Yeah,

Katherine 4:11
since I was pi, seven,

Scott Benner 4:13
gotcha. has diabetes changed anything about your college plans? Or?

Katherine 4:19
I'm a little bit I'm still living away from home. But I chose a very close college. So if there are any problems I can commute and call my parents if I need them.

Scott Benner 4:30
And that wasn't the plan originally. No, not originally. Were How far away were you gonna go? Do you think?

Katherine 4:39
I, you know, I was really sky's the limit. Hawaii, California. Probably like mass or New York.

Scott Benner 4:47
Okay. Are you in that area? Like in the Northeast?

Katherine 4:51
Yeah, I'm in Connecticut.

Scott Benner 4:52
Okay. I'm sorry. You said that. I'm sorry. I'm trying to wipe off my whiteboard. So I can write things down that I need to forget it. That's okay. So much graffiti here from art and just making fun of me Hold on a second. She comes in here and writes insulting things. To me, when I'm not looking at that I come sit down. I can't even tell you the one thing I'm looking at right now it's, it's completely inappropriate. Well, you and my daughter are pretty much the exact same age and the exact same situation in life. But as far as diabetes goes, your different ends of the spectrum and she's been at it forever Arden's going all the way to Georgia, from New Jersey. Wow. Yeah. And, but if she just got diabetes a year ago, I don't think I'd have the nerve for that. Maybe? Not sure. Yeah. What technology do you have?

Katherine 5:44
So I have a FreeStyle Libre, two sensor. And I also started an omni pod in December.

Scott Benner 5:51
How are you liking that? I love it. How about the libre? How's the libre?

Katherine 5:57
Um, it's good. I chose it. Because it's circular and round. And I dance a lot. So I rolling on the floor every day. So it was something that I could like, easily move in.

Scott Benner 6:09
Have you recently seen the image of the new Dexcom? g7? That'll be out soon?

Katherine 6:13
I have my dad sent it to me. Yeah,

Scott Benner 6:16
it's pretty much the same. It's small. Yeah, it's

Katherine 6:18
awesome. Flat. It's

Scott Benner 6:19
gonna be cool. But anyway, I mean, whatever works is what works. And I think that's the best. You know, anything that makes your life easier that fits in your life or your budget or whatever? Is? is excellent. I don't Yeah, I would never want people to think you know, like, Dexcom is a sponsor of the show. And they have been forever and Arden's used it forever. But that doesn't make me think that you shouldn't be using something else. You know what I mean? I think I think it's very important to take advantage of technology with diabetes. So let's go back to when you were diagnosed for a second. How did that how did it happen?

Katherine 6:53
So I was just having really bad symptoms. For around nine months, I was extremely exhausted, like, I couldn't, I couldn't get off the couch. I was super, super thirsty, which would come and go. So I didn't think it was a problem. And I would have just like really weird stomach pains. And I just I didn't really know what was going on. So I had a yearly checkup. And I had lost a ton of weight. And they were like, alright, well, we'll do some blood tests. But maybe it's your like nutrition because I I've always had like very healthy foods, and I've been into health a lot. So they're like, oh, it's probably your nutrition. So we'll do some blood tests. And, you know, see, see what happens. And then I got a call. No, like, I need to go to the hospital. Your blood sugar is really high.

Scott Benner 7:47
Oh my gosh, hey, when you said you lost a significant amount of weight, can you share how much just so even if it's just a percentage of your body weight just so people know what to look for?

Katherine 7:56
Yeah, I lost 20 pounds. Wow.

Scott Benner 7:59
Is that a significant amount of your weight? Yes, yeah. Okay. And you're a singer dancer. Yes. So yeah, that's interesting, too, isn't it? Because if you're, you must look like you're healthy. I'm assuming if you're if you're dancing, and you say you're eating very healthy, it's weird that someone would say to you, this is probably a nutrition problem. Did you say that can't be I eat this is how I eat? Or do you just kind of listen to them at that point?

Katherine 8:25
Yeah, I listened to them. Because my parents were really noticing the weight loss. They saw me eating so they were like, alright, something's something's off here.

Scott Benner 8:35
And you're young too. I mean, you're going to a pediatrician still, right? Yes, yeah, gotcha. They're just like skinny equals food. But they got you pretty quickly, because they ran off with a run a full blood panel on you. Yeah, they did. Yeah, maybe the thing about the food was just to keep you calm, because they maybe they closed the door and like, something's really wrong with this girl. You know? Because if you run like a CBC, they did that.

Katherine 9:00
I'm not sure they I just remember I went to go get my blood drawn. And she like, had five vials. And I was like, Whoa,

Scott Benner 9:07
I think you probably had a complete blood panel. And I bet you that part of them was looking for cancer two.

Katherine 9:14
I think Yeah. I think my labs did come back with all that information.

Scott Benner 9:17
Yeah, like white blood cell counts. And yeah, right. I bet you they were scared to something really bad was wrong. And, and that's good. It sounds like they kind of threw the kitchen sink at you and got everything they needed. Pretty quick. Yeah. So did you just, I mean, how did you feel in that moment? Did you just go to the hospital? Or did you make plans? How did you handle it?

Katherine 9:37
Yeah, we just went to the hospital. And I was very calm at the time. It's really crazy. My parents were like, Alright, your blood sugar's really high. Like we need to go to the doctors and I thought it was just the blood drawing lab again. So I'm like, All right, like Yeah, after school, it's good and like, no now and I'm like, Oh, okay. And then we're at the hospital. I'm like, Oh, okay. So Hospital.

Scott Benner 9:59
Hospital. Oh, yeah. Had you been? Had you ever been sick prior to that in your life?

Katherine 10:05
Um, no, I've diabetes was the first

Scott Benner 10:09
thing to happen. Yeah. My brothers

Katherine 10:11
and sisters, younger sister,

Scott Benner 10:14
younger sister, any autoimmune in the family celiac vitiligo, thyroid conditions

Katherine 10:25
and nothing, nothing on both sides

Scott Benner 10:27
with your parents. How about grandparents or anything? Oh, yeah. How about this? Got an aunt that runs to the bathroom after Thanksgiving dinner that nobody talks about? Anything like that?

Katherine 10:36
No, it's nothing. Interesting.

Scott Benner 10:38
Okay. All right. So now you're in the hospital? When does the weight of it hit you?

Katherine 10:47
Um, I would say I was only in the hospital for a day. Because they just COVID Yeah, it was during right right in the middle. And they thought they were testing my blood for something. And it came back fine. I wasn't in DK. So they told me to go straight to the endocrinologist. And I didn't even know what diabetes was. I thought it was you prick your finger once a day. That was it. And maybe you couldn't eat bread? If you're?

Scott Benner 11:19
You know, that would probably be if that's all it was. I think that would actually be good for me. If I if somebody was like, lucky, just can't eat bread. I was like, I might fix a lot of my problems. Thank you. Yeah, well, I was so your ex, your expectation did not meet the reality at all. So did they? Did they educate you in the hospital? Or is it something you learned slowly, over time by yourself?

Katherine 11:44
In the hospital, they really told me nothing. That's when I went to the endocrinologist and she whipped out an insulin pen and was like, You're gonna take this three times a day, then whipped out the nighttime one. She's like, you're gonna take this one today. And I had a phobia of needles. I was terrified. And I was just like,

Scott Benner 11:59
oh, no, I'm not. I was like, you've got to be kidding me. Did you have any pushback? Even internally? Did you have any thoughts of like, This isn't me or I'm not doing this? Or what were your What was your monologue? Like internally?

Katherine 12:13
It was definitely a lot of denial. Like, in a couple days, it would be okay. I wouldn't have to do it. Yeah, because I didn't. I didn't really think I was sick. In my head. I was like, oh, like, I wasn't that sick. I wasn't that sick. But looking back on it now looking at those months and the photos and everything. I was like, oh, yeah,

Scott Benner 12:31
right, right. So it occurs to me two things. First of all, you sound like a very together person for your age, which I don't know what that means. Exactly. But that's the vibe I'm getting so far. Also, I don't think many 18 year olds reach out to be on podcasts about diabetes. So you're a rather mature person your whole life, I'm guessing.

Katherine 12:53
Um, yeah, I've firstborn. So I've been pretty responsible. Gotcha. All right. I really, this year, especially listening to the podcast, and everything I've gotten way more together. Okay.

Scott Benner 13:07
The reason I asked? Well, is because I mean, how you how you make out in the first year, how it strikes you, I think is going to have a lot to do with your perspective and your mindset. So let me ask you, because when I think of your generation, right away, I think of people who grew up with cell phones, internet access, which I know sounds crazy to you, because you probably don't even think of it that way. But you know, how when you're watching a TV show, and you see a guy or girl and you think, Oh, I know them, but I don't know from where and five seconds later, you know, their life story. Yes, that didn't used to work that way. What would happen was that four days later, while you were at work standing around a water cooler, literally, you'd look at a friend and go, You ever see that show where the girls will which any go? What? Yeah, the mother in law on that show, you know her? And then your buddy, go, no, no, anyway, all right. And that would be how it would go. Right. So you don't have a lot of expectations too, for things and especially for things to come quickly. But in your generation you have that you have instant access to almost anything you want. And I know you don't even see it that way likely, but it builds a an expectation inside of you that what you want comes fast. And I don't know that that's a bad thing or a good thing. I just think it's a reality of growing up in the internet age. So my first thought was, did you ever have a feeling of like, oh, I can I can fix this then the doctors just don't know. Did you ever have that like initial? This must be wrong. We can fix this feeling or did you go right into acceptance?

Katherine 14:48
Um, I think I did go into acceptance. I really didn't think about there not being a cure for type one diabetes. It i One day I was just like, oh, so there's Nothing like I can do to fix it. Right. I, I knew it was important, and I had to take care of it. So I think I went into acceptance.

Scott Benner 15:08
Yeah, I mean, and that's really I mean, you're listening to the podcast, you hear stories of people twice your age three times your age, who have trouble, kind of just getting past the initial. I don't want this to be my life and getting right to taking care of it. So it's impressive that you've and by the way, I don't know that you've done that. I just feel like you have. So we're gonna keep asking questions to find out but your perspective and your attitude seem right. To me, it's really impressive. You're your parents help you with this at all.

Have you found that getting your diabetes supplies can be a pain in the butt? I have to, but not any longer because now we're getting Ardens diabetes supplies from us med. To get a free benefits check, just call 888-721-1514 or go to us med.com forward slash juicebox. US med has served over 1 million diabetes customers since 1996. And they want you to know that they're offering you better service and better care than you're getting now. US med always provides 90 days worth of supplies, and fast and free shipping. They carry everything from insulin pumps and diabetes testing supplies to the latest CGM like the FreeStyle Libre two and the Dexcom G six. Arden gets her DAX comps and her on the pods from us med. US med accepts Medicare nationwide and over 800 private insurers. US med is the number one distributor for FreeStyle Libre systems. The number one specialty distributor from the pod dash number one fastest growing tandem distributor, the number one rated distributor index com customer service satisfaction surveys. And they are proud of the white glove treatment that they offer their customers. Us med.com forward slash juice box are called 888-721-1514. And that 888 Number is special just for Juicebox Podcast listeners. Now if you decide to go to the website, it's super simple. Here's what it tells you when you get there. Getting started is easy. from the comfort of your own home or office. You can now join over 1 million satisfied customers who rely on our staff of courteous knowledgeable and trained us med customer care representatives to keep you up to date with your medical and diabetic supplies delivered right to your door. Super simple benefits check name, phone number, email, zip code, and then just hit the button that says Request a free benefits check. It's that easy. Let us med take care of your supplies so you don't have to worry. The Omni pod five automated insulin delivery system is available now and waiting for you at on the pod.com forward slash juice box on the pod five is the only tubeless automated insulin delivery system that integrates with the Dexcom G six CGM and it uses smart adjust technology to automatically adjust your insulin delivery every five minutes, helping to protect against highs and lows without multiple daily injections. Omni pod five is also available through your pharmacy, which means you can get started without the four year Durable Medical Equipment contract that comes with most insulin pumps, even when you're currently in warranty with another system. To get started today, go to Omni pod.com Ford slash juicebox. Now for those of you who aren't in the market for an automated system, but still want an insulin pump and love the idea of tubeless you're looking for the Omni pod dash, head over to my link Omni pod.com forward slash juice box. While you're there, you'll be able to learn everything you need to know about the Omni pod five, and the Omni pod Dash. And you can also find out if you're eligible for a free 30 day trial of the Omni pod dash. My daughter Arden has been wearing the AMI pod since she was four years old and she just turned 18 That is 14 years of wearing an AMI pod every day. And it has been nothing but a friend in this journey with insulin. Because the AMI pod is tubeless you can wear it while you're showering, swimming or participating in your favorite physical activity. It's a big deal to not have to disconnect from a tube pump to do those things. Head over now to Omni pod.com forward slash juice box to find out if you're eligible for that free 30 day trial the dash to learn more about the dash or to learn more about the Omni pod five Get started today on the pod five full safety and risk information as well as a list of compatible phones and clinical trial claims data our event I will add my link. And at that same link Omni pod.com forward slash juice box. You can also find terms and conditions for that on the pod dash 30 day trial

your parents help you with this at all.

Katherine 20:22
My dad really took it on the first, the first day he was like, alright, nothing's terminal. diabetes, we're good. We can do it and just researched. Everything was the equipment, the pumps, that type of insulin was really amazing and helping me.

Scott Benner 20:40
I'd love to talk to you dad for five minutes. I'd ask him one question. I'd say after you said that to your daughter. Where did you go and cry privately?

Katherine 20:48
Probably I don't think you slept since.

Scott Benner 20:51
You don't think he slept in the last year?

Katherine 20:54
I really don't think so. He's just watching the graph.

Scott Benner 20:57
Well, he's gonna need to get over that. But is there a need for that? Are you getting low or high overnight a lot.

Katherine 21:04
Um, it's been in sometimes it's either like drastic highs or drastic lows. But recently it's been i i figured out how to get it pretty steady before I go to sleep.

Scott Benner 21:19
Okay, so he helped you with research and stuff. Does he help you with management?

Katherine 21:26
In the beginning, yes. I picked my own finger from the start. But shots I didn't do probably till a month after I was diagnosed. So my mom, my sister, and my dad all did them for me.

Scott Benner 21:37
That's very nice of them. Seriously, give you some time to acclimate? Right. Yeah, when you finally did it for yourself? Was it a feeling of like, well, I guess I can't let somebody do this forever. Or did you? Like what was the thing that pushed you over the edge? Got you going?

Katherine 21:52
I was really mad at my mom. And I was really hungry. And I didn't want her to be the one to give me the shot. So I was like, no, what? I'll just do it.

Scott Benner 22:00
Aren't people interesting? So you were very mad at the lady who was paying all your bills, taking good care of you helping you reduce? Yes, yeah. And so much so that you were like, I, I just need her away from me. I'm going to do this. So that I don't have to be involved with her in the moment. Yeah, listen, that's a very common story. So just interesting, but that's not what happened. Okay, so where do you find? Well, that's not my question. Hold on a second. Catherine. Let Scott revamp what he was gonna say. Take your time. Yeah, I. You said it's been and then you paused like three minutes ago. And in my head. I heard, it's been one week since you looked at me. And now I'm gonna get emails from people like you have ADHD. But it's put me off track for a second. Okay, so how do they teach you? I mean, who teaches you, you get an endo? Right. You're not going to your pediatrician anymore. Yeah, I have an endo. Okay. What's their teaching of management? You're so fresh in this you're going to remember?

Katherine 23:04
Yeah, it was I mean, they told me if your 250 for three hours, you take this much. And you divide carbs by this amount, and you take this shot at night, and that was really it.

Scott Benner 23:18
Hmm. And you did that?

Katherine 23:22
I did that. But it wasn't going great. Because who wants to be 250? For three hours?

Scott Benner 23:27
Yeah. Man, for sure. So were you getting while you were doing what they told you? Were you experiencing many lows, as well as these highs to 50?

Katherine 23:39
Yeah, I had super high highs and super low lows. And then I my sister got COVID One week after I was diagnosed, and then I got it two weeks after that. So that also,

Scott Benner 23:52
when you don't know what you're doing, and then yeah, COVID on top of it. I'm not going to ask you how that was because I don't imagine it went well. So high highs, low lows. Let's put numbers on that. What's a low low

Katherine 24:07
50s.

Scott Benner 24:08
Okay, how and how did you feel it? 50

Katherine 24:13
I, I went low so much that it didn't affect me after certain point.

Scott Benner 24:18
Sorry, getting used to it. So were you were you ping pong and just up down all day long?

Katherine 24:24
Yep. Gotcha. Sorry. 50 to 50. So they had

Scott Benner 24:27
your basil wrong. They had your carb ratio wrong. And I'm guessing you didn't Pre-Bolus Is that all right? Correct. Yeah, Catherine. I've been doing this a long time you understand? Okay, so how did you I mean, obviously, it's wrong and obviously it's difficult to live with. But what makes you look for other information? I mean, I guess how many times did you go back to them and say, hey, help before you went and did something for herself.

Katherine 25:01
Um, when I did have COVID We call them a bunch and message them a lot because freaking out because we're like, oh my god, it's the first time she's sick. Her numbers going crazy. She's COVID. And they didn't answer us until like, after I was done with COVID

Scott Benner 25:19
Hello, it's the doctor's office. How can we help? Good call five days ago? Really? How long between when you call them and when they got back to you? I would

Katherine 25:30
say five or six days shameful. Okay. Yeah. So

Scott Benner 25:33
you were finished with COVID by then? Yeah, yep. Hey, just for context. What were your COVID symptoms?

Katherine 25:40
Um, fever, headache, shakiness, nausea, runny nose. Cough.

Scott Benner 25:49
Did you get Ketos? Yeah, I

Katherine 25:51
had a lot of ketones.

Scott Benner 25:53
Yeah. And there's no way you were gonna manage them with insulin because you you're all out of balance to begin with?

Katherine 25:58
Yeah, the fever. Really? I had to take shots like every two hours.

Scott Benner 26:02
Okay. He didn't have a pump that either. Yeah, no pump. Right. Okay. So, okay, so does that turn you off to your doctor's office at that point? Or do you just think this is how it goes?

Katherine 26:14
Turn me completely off. Good for you, Catherine.

Scott Benner 26:17
Okay, so then you do what an 18 year old would do. And you go to tick tock to try to figure it out. Right.

Katherine 26:26
I well. So I don't know. I was at the hairdresser's one day. And I'm getting my hair cut. So you know, it just needs to be cut. And the hairdresser is talking about her granddaughter who has type one diabetes. I'm like, Oh, my, this will tell her I'm like, oh, you know, I have type one diabetes. And she's like, Oh, really? Like, you know, yeah. And she told me, she's like, You have to listen to this podcast. Like it's helped us so much. It's really great. And she writes it on a sticky note and gave it to me. And I didn't listen to it for about a month afterwards, because I found the sticky note in my car. But then I started listening. I'm like, Okay, I'm not going crazy. I should be changing things.

Scott Benner 27:08
Wow. Good for you. And good for her for sharing. And thank you. Yeah, let me just say, thank you seriously, like at the end of the episodes, Catherine, you ever hear me say like, Hey, if you enjoyed the podcast, tell somebody else about it. You know, but it really is how the podcast like stays alive. Yeah, word of mouth is the is the only real way to publicize the podcast. Like you could buy ads. I've seen famous people buy ads for their podcast, and it doesn't help their podcast. It really is. The only way to do it is that somebody has to listen to it really get something out of it. Enough so that they're willing to tell another person a stranger. Really? Yeah. Hey, give this a shot. So okay, well, thank God the sticky stayed in your pocket, I guess. How did you start to listen? Did you just because people listen all different ways. So I'm interested.

Katherine 27:59
So I started episode one, and binged like, one to 100. Like a week.

Scott Benner 28:05
Am I better at it now than I was then?

Katherine 28:09
I think it's been pretty good. From the star consistent.

Scott Benner 28:11
You're saying I love consistent. My microphones better now, though. Right. And there's no more dogs in the background. That's probably a bonus.

Katherine 28:20
Yeah, but then I, you know, did some recent ones after that, and then went through and saw some good names. And it was really good.

Scott Benner 28:28
Wow, that's amazing. And so did you find this interesting, did you? So I just heard somebody say this? Actually, I know exactly. Who said it. She was an hour. I'm gonna get her episode number because I love her horse. You know, the best thing they say to do on a podcast is to search the internet. People find it incredibly interesting, they say. And by the way, what I'm searching is my own website, because I don't know where anything is. Okay. Episode 587 is with Laura. She's actually from Switzerland. And she was on Instagram the other day telling someone about how starting at the beginning, she learned so much about management, because at the beginning of the podcast, it felt like I think what she was saying is that it felt like I was just talking through what I do at that point. Yeah, right. And so is that was that you're finding in those first, like, 100 episodes or so?

Katherine 29:28
Yeah, it was just listening to you like being able to talk and share how you do things. And I took it from there.

Scott Benner 29:35
Wow. And so have you been to the defining diabetes series or the pro tips or anything like that?

Katherine 29:42
Yes, I go through them and listen, okay.

Scott Benner 29:45
All this has been valuable for you. It really has. Catherine, you're like my focus group now. Right, thank you. Because I would think I would think I would not be as palatable to a 17 or eight 10 year old person. So do you like me? And like my vibe works for you? Or did you just need the information so badly, you didn't care who was delivering it to, you

Katherine 30:09
know, the vibe and just the way the episodes are set up and how it's really just conversations is, it's very helpful

Scott Benner 30:16
that works for you. So you don't care that I'm 32 years older than you, that doesn't matter. No, it doesn't matter that I don't have diabetes. It does not matter. Wow. Cool. Well, it's all working the way I wanted to then Kevin. Not a lot is gone the way I wanted in my life. So it's pretty exciting. You know, I've had a lot of ideas I once Can I tell you something I've never told anybody. Sure. I was married not long. And I go to my wife, who must have been very disappointed. I said, I'm not going to work today. I have an idea for a movie. And it's in my head. I'm gonna write it down. Right. So I call out of work. And I don't know how old I am. 24 Maybe. And, but you would think I would know when I got married. Right? Maybe we should figure that out real quick. I was born in 71. And I was married 96. So 8191. I'm 25 Then right? Okay, so imagine you're, first of all, you're married way too young Katherine, in this story. Already, you've probably already quietly called a friend and been like, I don't know what I did. You know. And then the guy says, I'm gonna stay home and write my movie idea down. You've got to be at a panic as you're going off to work. You're like, Oh, great. I'm gonna be taking care of this idiot my entire life anyway, I, I write out a treatment for my idea. And it's about these kids that live in a house. And behind the house is a meadow. And there's this gate that they find it's not attached to anything. And when you go through a gate, you go to this other place and this whole thing and my wife comes home, she reads it. And she goes, this is very good. And I said, Thank you. She goes, have you ever read a Bridge to Terabithia? Oh, my God, I go, No, why? And she goes, Well, that's what you're writing right now. And I was, I was like, damn it. So my point is, can you imagine having an idea? So good, that it's already a book? And would one day become a movie? Except somebody had the idea before? You? You don't? I mean, so yeah. So when I had the idea for the podcast, there actually wasn't another diabetes podcast. And I'm just excited that my ideal works like Like, no kidding. How long ago did you find it?

Katherine 32:26
Um, it was around July.

Scott Benner 32:29
Okay, August, September, October, I'm counting now November, December, January, 10 months ago, two months into your diet three months into your diagnosis. About 10 months ago, you find a podcast made by a guy 32 years older than you that does not have diabetes. And it actually helped you. And he decided to make it eight years ago. Like you were listening to something last year that I made like six, seven years prior to that. Yeah, it's crazy. It's nuts. Right? Like, none of that makes sense. To me. Still, I'm see it probably does to you because you're young. But I'm old. And so I'm still mesmerized by the Internet. A little bit. Okay, so what did you take out of the podcast first, like, what was your what were your first steps? What got you moving in the right direction?

Katherine 33:14
Um, bold was insulin. You've probably heard like, a million times, but I wasn't afraid to Lowe's for a really long time. So I was just like, oh, I can use more insulin. Sure. And I just started doing that. And then when you talk about Pre-Bolus thing, I was like, Oh, my God, this is so smart. I never knew that. And I started doing that. Wow.

Scott Benner 33:35
So all the way back to Episode 11. Right? Yep. Yeah. You know, that. As crazy as it sounds, that I just I think during the course of, like, if you listen to the podcasts, you know, I just come up with the titles from the tax like at some point in somebody says something like a woman the other day told me, I only have ginger cat. And I had a whiteboard in front of me and I wrote down ginger cats like that. That's going to be the episode title. It is not in any way descriptive of what we talked about for the hours that we're talking. But I to me, I don't care. And so I recorded that episode 11, which was still a lot of it's a lot of stream of consciousness for me back then. Right? Yeah. And I think in there for the first time, I said, you just have to be bold with the insulin. And I wasn't trying to make a catchphrase or something like that. It's just something random. I said, and then I made it the title of the episode. And now people wear it on T shirts and things like that. Very, very weird. But so so your first thought was, I'm not stuck using just what the doctor told me. So is it as simple as like when a doctor gives you a pill and says, take one of these twice a day? You've never you've never once in your life considered harm. I just take three.

Katherine 34:51
Right? Yeah, I mean, yeah, I never questioned it.

Scott Benner 34:53
So when they say take this much insulin at a meal, you go well, that's how this works. Yeah, I see. Okay, and then up, down, up, down, somebody comes along and says, you know, you could probably take more insulin if you needed it. And by the way, insulin works this way. So you can't just put it in. So were you not you were just were you shooting and eating at the same time? Or were you even eating sometimes and shooting afterwards?

Katherine 35:18
I would, yeah, basically take the insulin and then, like, eat seconds after that.

Scott Benner 35:23
Okay, so there's no Pre-Bolus whatsoever and you're eating interested in a healthy diet, you say, what does that consist of? Generally?

Katherine 35:31
I'm a ton of vegetables. I'm, I'm not even I'm not a big fruit eater. But just yeah, like, like, I would eat eggs in the morning. Sometimes I would put, you know, bread with it. And then at that point, I wasn't eating lunch, but for dinner, I would just have a ton of vegetables.

Scott Benner 35:48
So a lot of fiber kind of heavy vegetables, carrots, beans, things like that.

Katherine 35:52
Yeah. Yeah, some quinoa. Like,

Scott Benner 35:54
it's you. You know, who would love you? Give you you've probably never listened to the thyroid episodes with Dr. Benito.

Katherine 36:03
I actually I have oh, how come? I thought I had a thyroid problem for a while bit of anxiety, but I'm fine. But

Scott Benner 36:12
you're good. Okay. Dr. Benito. Every time I see she goes, You could have quinoa. And he says qinhuai all the time. Have you ever noticed like Jenny's go to was like quinoa? Yes, yeah. And I'm like Jenny, less healthy. We're talking to everybody picks up stuff using keto as your example. Because I'm thinking nine out of 10 people are like, What is she talking about? But, but yes, you're eating things that need insulin. And yeah, and that aren't simple. They're not just count it, shoot it, it'll work. They need Pre-Bolus thing they need. I mean, some of those things need considerations for protein rises later. All kinds of things, right? Yeah, yeah. How bad off? How bad off that wasn't English. How far how far off? How far off was your basil from where it needed to be?

Katherine 37:04
Um, it wasn't too far off. I think. I have I haven't been on basil for a while, but I was around 11 When I went off the pens, but I think they started me off at like, 910. So it was, it was a little off, but not awful.

Scott Benner 37:22
Okay. And you do have any honeymoon at this point, or you are no, no, honeymooning. What's your Basal rate right now in your pod?

Katherine 37:31
It's actually very strange. For 8am till 9pm, it's zero. But from nine to whatever time during the night, I have like point five point a point to

Scott Benner 37:49
where you literally have no Basal for like 15 hours a day?

Katherine 37:53
Yeah, I think it's the level because it's my Basal switches so much. But I think it's still my level of activity during the day that any insulin that's just in there just makes me go low.

Scott Benner 38:06
What's your insulin to carb ratio? You're the first person that's ever said this to me. So what's your insulin to carb ratio?

Katherine 38:13
Another reason why my doctors shake their head at me is because I don't divide. I don't have like a set number where I divide by carbs. I look at what I'm eating. Think about what I'm doing. And then I kind of go from there about like, how much carbs? This like if it's pasta, you know, I know it's gonna affect me a little later. So I'll take it less and do a little less of a Pre-Bolus. But with something with keen well, like, it's more upfront,

Scott Benner 38:41
Catherine Yuri took this podcast to heart, didn't you? Yeah, okay. So But alright, let's try to figure it out for a second. If I gave you a piece of bread and the bread was 20 carbs. How much of the time would you give yourself for a slice of bread?

Katherine 38:58
If it's in the morning, probably three. But if it's in the afternoon to 1.5

Scott Benner 39:05
Interesting. You sure you don't have any? You should you don't have any kind of honeymoon happening still?

Katherine 39:14
Um, I mean, I don't think so.

Scott Benner 39:17
What's your blood? What's your blood sugar? Does your blood sugar sit stable during the day? 8am to 9pm

Katherine 39:23
Well, you Yes, sometimes but mornings are tough.

Scott Benner 39:29
Okay, so mornings are tough. Yes, sometimes so when it is stable, what's the number to stable up?

Katherine 39:38
I tried to stable it. The lowest I can go but usually 120 route either around there 90.

Scott Benner 39:46
Okay. 120 to 90 and, but in the morning it's higher.

Katherine 39:52
Yeah, in the morning. If I if something happens I don't Pre-Bolus correctly or food affects me In a certain way, or like shoot right up to 300,

Scott Benner 40:02
because you don't have any basil going, yeah. Okay. Give ketones during the day. None. All right. That's a long time not to have insulin is why I'm saying, like, I know a doctor would say to you don't please don't do that. But I'm trying to figure out I mean, what's your agency right now?

Katherine 40:26
Um, my last agency was 5.3. But I was going low too often. So I would say, I have to go soon. But I'm guessing it's gonna be like, 5.7 5.8.

Scott Benner 40:43
How much do you dance?

Katherine 40:46
I'm five times a week.

Scott Benner 40:51
Certain times a day.

Katherine 40:53
I'm usually always around four to nine

Scott Benner 40:56
in the afternoon to the evening. Okay, so what if I said to you? What if I said, you, I wish you had a time I wish you had some basil happening during the day? Is there a way for you to try to take so my expectation is that there's a way for you to try to take some of your meal insulin and swap it for basil. So go lighter on your meals, but add some basil during the day. Have you tried that?

Katherine 41:29
I have right now I have it. So my Basal turns off at around 9am. So I have it for breakfast, and then it's it switches off.

Scott Benner 41:38
Okay. But have you like what if like, could you make your like, here's my thought, could you make your Basal point one an hour? All day long? I could, I could try it. Because if you did that. I mean, seriously, it's kind of, you know, there's, there's always this fear in me, Catherine that one day, I'm going to go Oh, god, there's nothing left to talk about this podcast is over. But you just said something to me that I was like, No, I've recorded 750 of these. And I was like, no one's ever sent this to me before. So cool. So let me let me get my calculator out. Hold on a second buy out. I mean, like open an app. It's a calculator. So if you do you have your PDM I do. Can you read me your Basal program? Yeah, you want to do this? By the way. We have not yet talked about what you want to come on for. But we will get to it. I promise.

Katherine 42:28
We have time. Okay, good. Okay, so right now.

Scott Benner 42:36
So I have you as like 9am. To what is it? 8pm? Zero, right?

Katherine 42:43
Okay, so yeah, it's nine 9am to 9pm zero, okay. And then 9pm to midnight is point 453 hours and then 12 to I think 3.55.

Scott Benner 43:02
Negligible three hours, go ahead.

Katherine 43:06
And then three to 430 is

Scott Benner 43:11
point six, five 30.653. That's only an hour and a half. Okay.

Katherine 43:15
And then 430 to nine is point eight.

Scott Benner 43:22
Interesting 430 3637 3834 and a half hours. Okay, here's what I do. I got point eight times four. You getting 3.2. In that segment? I got 6.65. For an hour and a half, that's like point that's like another unit. And then we have for three hours point five cents a unit and a half. And we have for three hours point four five, which is basically another unit and a half. So 34567 You're getting like 7.2 of basil a day. Would you tell me how much you weigh?

Katherine 44:10
Oh, 125.

Scott Benner 44:14
Okay, now, can you go into your history and tell me how much you've bought? Like how much you Bolus yesterday? Yes. Oh, also Katherine while you're doing that, nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered medical or otherwise, always consult a physician before making any changes to your health care plan. We're becoming bold with insulin. 7.2 units of basil for a day. You weigh 125 pounds. You dance constantly. Alright, when you're ready, tell me how much you Bolus yesterday.

Katherine 44:47
Do you want the percentage? No, the percentage is

Scott Benner 44:51
going to be really high because you don't use any Bazelon thinking. But actually, Hey, Catherine. I'm going to curse. Give me the bait. Give me the percentage. Okay, good. Okay. Eat some d3. Yeah. Okay. And then, but I want to know total insulin

Katherine 45:06
18.5 units. point five.

Scott Benner 45:10
How many foreign meals did you have yesterday? Like how many meals to two? Can you see how much of that 18.5 went into those two meal bonuses and how much was correction?

Katherine 45:23
Yes. might take me a second. Oh, yeah. Okay, so 6.8 of it was basil.

Scott Benner 45:35
Yesterday 6.8 was Basal. Yeah. Of the 18.5 Yes. Holy snap. Okay, so of the 12 that's remaining. Did you make any corrective boluses yesterday, or were these only meal boluses?

Katherine 45:50
I did one corrective.

Scott Benner 45:51
How much was that?

Katherine 45:54
That was around three units.

Scott Benner 45:57
He got to the day before and see how much of your insulin was corrective.

Katherine 46:04
So yesterday, I was weirdly the same 70 That's just my pump beeping.

Scott Benner 46:10
That's not It's not weird at all. Catherine. All right. I, by the way, I don't know what's wrong with me. I'm having an incredibly good time talking about this. Like, if you like if you said to me right now, finish this, or go to Coachella, I'd be like, I'm good with me. And Catherine.

Katherine 46:27
Said it was 73%. Yesterday, too, with 18.1 weirdly units. Seven of it was Basal. And then I did do a corrective shot that was a little lower around like two.

Scott Benner 46:42
Okay, so if you were here, I would take I would do a couple of things. First things first. round numbers not and I'm so sorry. You get your period do you do not because the dancing?

Katherine 46:58
Um, I don't not from dancing from what? I just lost it when I before I was diagnosed, I never got it back.

Scott Benner 47:08
Maybe you'll find it one day. Although from what I hear from ladies, good riddance. So. Okay, so because you're not getting any weird hormonal fluctuations, you don't have times of the month that are harder or easier to Bolus for right? Now, yeah, nothing, I'll tell you what, I might take that 100. So I'm going to treat you for a second like your, your pre pubescent, which you're not, but you don't get a so the same thing. So if you were 125 pounds, point one per 10 pounds per hour point, one point 10 pounds. Oh makes you 1.2 an hour for basil. If you were 1.2 an hour for basil. By the way, I'm not saying you should be I'm just a math in my head here. That would give you 28 units a day, which is obviously too much, you're not even using that much. So that's not the measurement we're going to use. Instead, what we're going to say is you're basically using seven units a day and basil and you're correcting once a day with three. So what if we took the 10 divided by 24 and made your Basal rate point for all day long?

Katherine 48:23
I'll try it I'm excited.

Scott Benner 48:25
Right? So by the way, this is like the equivalent of getting a medical procedure in an alleyway. Okay, so I let's all be clear, barely graduated from high school didn't go to college. Don't have a medical degree, but nothing is considered medical advice. You know why it can't be cuz I'm pretty much an idiot. Okay, so that's why now let's ignore when the times when you hear Jenny's call me like a contemporary or colleague like you know what I mean? Like that. That would be I'm not misdirecting you into believing I'm something I'm not. I'm a guy whose kid has diabetes. Who thinks it's bonkers that you don't have Basal all day long. And I and I makes me wonder. So you're eyeballing your meals. But you're eyeballing your meals without basil. So that's the first thing I have to tell you. If you do this, you've got to be careful. The first couple of times should Bolus Yeah, all right, because you're suddenly going to get between nine and nine. You're gonna get point for an hour for 12 hours. Well, there's going to be, I think, let's see. Let me make sure I'm saying this, right. So you're gonna get almost five units of insulin and basil throughout the day that you're not normally getting, but you are sort of normally getting some of it because you're putting in three units as a correction. I'm guessing your correction usually happens around 10 o'clock in the morning.

Katherine 49:54
Almost exactly, yes.

Scott Benner 49:56
I should get a podcast about this. You know what I'm saying? I'm at this point do you think people are like he knows all this? And he's just trying to sound like he's he's like, I've paid you or something? You have not gotten any money or compensation, is that correct? I've gotten nothing good for you. And by the way, when I sell ads on this episode, I will not be sharing it with you just so you know.

Katherine 50:15
I do not expect that. That's good.

Scott Benner 50:19
I got bills, Catherine. All right. Now let's um, so that's my boy. That's it for me if I had to guess for you. I mean, look, you're at some points, point eight, overnight. That's just you getting ready for your Dawn phenomenon, I think. Because that's what you did. Right? You've been getting high in the morning. So you're jacking it up? Is that right? Yeah. All right. I don't want you to have to make basil adjustments. Don't get me wrong. If there's a thing that happens with like clockwork, then by all means, if you know, if you always spike at 4am, then make your Basal higher at three 3am. You don't I mean, like I'm not saying yeah, I think that's fine. But I think there's a world where you could start at point for an hour and not go low? And then take a look again and see. Do I need it to be hired for am? Do I need to be higher somewhere else do I need to be lower somewhere else make an assessment off of that, if you were if you were scared, because you're you have nothing right now I'd even understand if you wanted to make it 9am to 9pm, point three 9pm to 9am. Point four, see how it goes the first day kind of a thing. But I would work off of that point for number and see what you can figure out now when you go to your meals, I think we need to remember that you are going to now have basically a half unit of Basal every hour going that you didn't have before. And so if you I'm just going to make up a number here, okay? If you look at your meal and say to yourself, Catherine, that is I don't know, that's going to be six units, okay? And I expect it in three hours, it will be mostly out of my system. Maybe try four and a half units for it then. Okay, because you're gonna have point four point 4.4 over those next three hours of basil happening that you hadn't had before. That's probably not going to end up being enough. But I prefer to see you on the safe side of that decision the first few times you make it and then try unless you're getting a significant rise after a meal. Try not to correct it for no 90 minutes, two hours. Okay, okay. But if you see a rise 90 minutes after or two hours or you see any kind of a rise you don't expect or you don't want them begin to go back more towards the basil or the excuse me the Bolus for the meal that you expected. Not taking off. Maybe a unit for basil or something like that. That will make sense. Yes, thank you. You're like my favorite 18 year old ever. If I said this to my daughter, you know what would have happened 20 minutes ago. She'd be like, why are we talking about this? And I'd say other people would like to talk to me about this. She go I am not one of them. Okay. All right. Say it all back to me. What are you going to do the whole thing?

Katherine 53:24
No, I'm

Scott Benner 53:25
not word for word. Tell me what you're gonna do.

Katherine 53:28
Point four units from my basil and lower the Bolus on my food and see how it works.

Scott Benner 53:34
seems so easy, right? Yeah. All right. Now, you're still white. By the way. Why are you able to talk to me on a Wednesday? What's going on here? Are you at school? Oh, Argent gets those two. Pretty killer. So when do you think you'll start trying this? We try it on the weekend because you have some time. Or when you try? I was gonna

Katherine 53:53
I already changed it. I'm ready.

Scott Benner 53:57
Life is for the living. Catherine. I understand. I'm saying that's right. Nothing like being youthful. You're like what? This seems fine. Let's try this. So you're saying that? Like, let me just ask you a couple like cleanup questions. After your meal? Well, you don't know because your bolusing your Pre-Bolus and your breakfast. So there's, you have active insulin all the way up to lunch, and then your bolusing going for lunch? So you really have active meal insulin all day long. And you're still higher than you want to be. Is that right? Yeah, this is the Basal. This is going to be the greatest day of your life. Okay. Katherine, would you I don't want to give myself more work. And you can say no. Okay. But would you carve out a little bit of time for me Monday afternoon next week to sit down for 15 minutes and just record again and tell me how this went? Sure. All right, cool. I will do that afterwards. Now 15 minutes into it. Why did you want to come onto the podcast is talking about how you teachers helped you, right?

Katherine 55:01
Yes, it's it's a pretty quick story. So if it'll be good, go for it. So I found this podcast in July. So basically, I went right back to school after I was diagnosed the week after from February to June, other than having COVID I was home, but I was petrified to do any type of management in school. I wouldn't scan myself, I wouldn't drink a juice box. I wouldn't eat at school, we had a weird schedule because of COVID. So we went home at 1210 and did a class online. So I didn't have to take any insulin at school. But even if I was high, I would just let I would, I would really eat in the morning. I would eat like oatmeal, and my numbers would shoot up to like 350. And then they would go down to about 60 When I was leaving school. So it wasn't great. Obviously,

Scott Benner 56:03
that's what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna do something I don't do. Okay, so wait a second. You're just gonna get a text with my name. Okay, and you and I are going to be friends for the next couple of days.

Katherine 56:15
I'm so excited. Okay. All right.

Scott Benner 56:18
You are of the legal age. Right? You're over 18 Yes. All right. Perfect. That's the last thing I need. Is your father. Like, why is this guy texting you? So I just want to I don't want you to be lost while you're doing this. Okay. I'm sorry, I took you off your story. Sorry. You were having trouble with your Bolus at school? Go ahead.

Katherine 56:36
Yes, and even if I was, I had my so FreeStyle Libre to just made it so the phone can scan to the sensor in the summer. So I still had the, you know, the little scanner. And I just turned off, all the alarms turned off the noise. So even urgent, low, I wouldn't have been able to hear it. And it was just not good. I would go out for my 90 minute gym class outside with nothing, not a glucose tab, not a phone, not a scanner. So I was just like, oh, like I was just terrified to manage it. And I didn't have any references really, to anyone with diabetes, or how serious it was. So I didn't, I didn't have really any perspective on it until I was able to listen to the podcast. And I was like, Okay, this is important. This is you know, something I need to fix. So I started to do that over the summer, but going into school, you know, taking out an insulin pen, putting a needle on it and sticking it in your arm or leg or stomach, whatever, terrified me. I was just, I had no idea how I was gonna get through it or do it. And I went into my first day and I have I have amazing teachers, I truly have great relationships with most of my teachers. And I knew that doing this in class, you know, drinking juice, giving shots, scanning myself, wouldn't be a problem. But to me, I just I didn't know anyone that had it. So it it kind of felt disrespectful. To me, if you're just doing it silly to think that that's what I thought. So I got go into my first day I'm like, alright, you know, if I go high during this class, it's gonna take a shot. If I go low, I'm gonna drink a juice box, and we'll see how this goes. And it was my only new teacher of that semester, I had never met her before. And you know, I'm so anxious that my numbers are starting to climb up and I'm like, great, you know, this is how it's gonna go. And I'm, you know, sitting at my desk, and my phone is flipped over on top of my desk, and the teacher starts walking up to me, and I'm like, Oh my God, here we go. Like, I'm already in trouble. I didn't even do anything. I'm so nervous for no reason. Yeah. Like, start a senior year. Here we go. And she knelt down to me, and the class was dead silent. And I'll always remember but she pointed to my phone and she said, I understand why you need this. And for me, that was just everything. i i It really did completely changed my life.

Scott Benner 59:26
Just a simple statement of, of understanding. And yeah, it freed you up. Were you able to just do with them without that nervousness?

Katherine 59:36
Yeah, a little bit. It's by bit but I in that classroom with her, I just, I felt comfortable I started giving myself shots. So you know when I would go high because I was still not on the pump yet. And I would you know, without the big jug of glucose tabs or a juice box or granola bar and from being able to feel confident in doing that in her Classroom, I started then to do it in my stats class, my science class and are just really slowly going into every class and it was just amazing.

Scott Benner 1:00:14
Did this help you go to other teachers to sort of come out and tell them so they could give you the same understanding? Where did you just sort of just start doing it?

Katherine 1:00:24
I did some most of my teachers that I had junior year, you know, got the email that I had diabetes, so most of them did, no, but I did hide it for a while. Like, if I had my scanner on, I would completely hide it with clothing, so no one would ask me, but it it helped me a lot. I make a lot of diabetic jokes.

Scott Benner 1:00:44
Yeah. Or do you see at first said you thought it was kind of disrespectful to be doing a medical thing in front of other people. Do you feel that way now?

Katherine 1:00:53
Not at all. Okay. Where are you in by? I'm sorry, say that again?

Scott Benner 1:00:58
Were you embarrassed?

Katherine 1:01:00
Oh, yeah, I was terrified. Embarrassed. I just had no idea how I was gonna do it.

Scott Benner 1:01:06
I understand. I mean, I think I understand. I'm sorry, I cut you off. I said, Oh, God, I said something. You started talking. And then I asked another question. Shoot. I'm gonna keep on that. That's Sorry, I'm gonna get. So do you think that you were really concerned about them? Or do you think that that seemed like a reasonable explanation for hiding your embarrassment? Like, Oh, this isn't fair to those people. So I just won't do it.

Katherine 1:01:34
Yeah, yeah. I was just like, oh, this is strange. It's, you know, these people have known me my whole life. And I've never whipped down a needle before. Like, it was just very different. And I was not used to it.

Scott Benner 1:01:46
Was it an excuse, then like, Oh, this isn't fair to them to do a medical thing in front of them, which was a nice way of giving yourself and like, the okay to not do it?

Katherine 1:01:55
Yeah. And also, as, you know, little fear of, they're gonna yell at me. I'm, I'm taking out a needle in school. Like, this is weird. Really?

Scott Benner 1:02:02
Oh, okay. Yeah. Do you tell your parents, you know, everybody says, talk to your parents, but you didn't tell your parents about this, right? Of course not. But it's like, it's like, you know, your mom's like, if you're ever going to do something, and you don't know you come to me like, oh, okay, lady. You're the first one I'll run to when someone offers me Molly, no problem. So you just had to have an experience in one kind person. Do you ever find out why that person knew about diabetes?

Katherine 1:02:32
My 504 plan?

Unknown Speaker 1:02:34
Oh, no kidding. So

Katherine 1:02:38
yeah, it was sent to everyone. And they are I guess, legally supposed to read it. But she was the first person who talked to me about it.

Scott Benner 1:02:46
Okay. That's really something but a lovely thing. Nice and easy. Never made a big deal out of it always just kind of let it happen.

Katherine 1:02:54
Yeah, it was just, it was perfect. Have you

Scott Benner 1:02:56
had more good experiences or bad experiences with teachers?

Katherine 1:03:01
I've only had one bad experience. And it was right after I started the pump. And everyone told me, you know, all the doctors were like, hey, it's gonna be a change, your numbers are going to fluctuate. And at that time, I was like, No, you know, they don't know what they're talking about. Because I had a really strict with my shots. I I was really I had a very tight range that I stayed in. So when I went high, the first time after getting my pump it like completely destroyed me. I was, I was just the whole day, I was just inconsolable. I was so upset with myself that I was high. And I went to check my blood sugar in my science class. And my teacher told me to put my phone away and I lost it. Did you cry? I was yes. I was so upset. I was like, I'm just checking my blood sugar's and he's like, oh, sorry. Like, oh, it was awful.

Scott Benner 1:03:55
Yeah. I'm sorry, but it's better now. Yes,

Katherine 1:03:59
I, I just did a presentation today on ACCESS people's access to insulin in the US.

Scott Benner 1:04:08
So Catherine, I'm going to say this to you now, because we're kind of at the end, and I'm going to cut this a little shorter than I would normally because we're going to tack more on to this, okay. I feel like what's about to happen is either your blood sugar is going to get very stable around 95 away from food, or, or is you're going to get low. So I've sent you my personal. You have my cell phone number now. Okay, yes, we can text as much as you want until Monday. All right. Whenever you have a question or you want to send me a graph or something, I'd be happy to help you with it. Keeping in mind I'm an idiot and I don't know what I'm talking about. And then it's not medical advice. I'd still be very happy to answer any questions as best I can. So if you want to make adjustments along with me over the you know, just like take, like snapshots of You're libre send it over take a look like tell me where your blood sugar is right now.

Katherine 1:05:05
Okay give me a couple sec.

Scott Benner 1:05:11
No, you're fine. So it's like 130 If I had to guess you haven't had lunch because we're talking through when you usually have lunch I imagine

Katherine 1:05:19
it's 125

Scott Benner 1:05:20
Your but your your blood sugar is 125 Yes. Did you know that the time was 125? When you said that? freaking me out. Katherine. What are you doing? No, I

Katherine 1:05:30
just, I just scanned it. It was 125

Scott Benner 1:05:32
in the Illuminati or something. What's happening? Don't come from my heart. Make your medicine out of something else. Katherine, a lot of references you don't know just happen all at once there. Alright, so your did your blood sugar's 125? It's 1:25pm. We're going to call that a good guy. That's what I was saying to you. You said 120 Oh, it was 125 Okay, that makes more sense. Yeah, I thought you were like some like mystic power or something like that. I wish he real quick scan it again. Is it 126 Right now? Because if it is, I think you're scanning the clock.

Katherine 1:06:05
It is not 126

Scott Benner 1:06:08
Sorry, I just made myself laugh. I don't know why. It wasn't even funny. Okay, so you're 125 right now, am I right to say you haven't eaten since this morning? Correct. Hmm. And you're going to dance today? Yes. Alright. So the dancing is the one thing I'm worried about. What kind of dancing Catherine? Jazz eclectic art music, hippie.

Katherine 1:06:32
I do a lot of ballet. But tonight is lyrical.

Scott Benner 1:06:37
Do you get low after dancing ever? Sometimes, yes. Sometimes? Yes. All right. So if you want to, or you're concerned, if you want to do a Temp Basal off an hour before dance starts and let it run till you know, maybe just about until dance ends. I completely understand that for the first day. And it might even be great data for you. Because maybe you'll look back and go hmm, I got Hi Darren dance. Or maybe I needed that or whatever. Like you'll get some sort of feedback. But am I right to say you haven't eaten since this morning? Yeah, that's right. So what time did you eat this morning? Eight?

Katherine 1:07:18
No, probably 630

Scott Benner 1:07:20
Oh my god. I was so asleep at 630 Okay. 30 getting older has some benefits. One of them is I get up when I want to know. So 630 You ate? How high did you go? Can you see?

Katherine 1:07:35
I went up to 200. But my pump is also on its last couple hours.

Scott Benner 1:07:40
I say. And you're 125 now? Are you gonna change the pump in a minute? Yes. All right. You text me with any questions you have. Seriously? Don't be nervous. Okay. Okay, thank

Katherine 1:07:53
you. You're welcome.

Scott Benner 1:07:55
Any questions before we start this little adventure together? Which will end up calling trying to kill Katherine part one. I'm just kidding. If you do die today, I'll be destroying this recording.

Katherine 1:08:11
Don't worry, I'll make sure people know it wasn't you

Scott Benner 1:08:13
know, seriously, though, what I what I meant to say but somehow it came out as a bizarre joke is please be careful. Check your blood sugar more frequently. If you start getting low back off the point for Okay. Okay. But like putting it into your head like this. If you make it, you made it point for almost a half an hour ago. Now. If you start to drift down, watch it a little bit. Like I don't want you to fall. But I mean, maybe it's just maybe over five hours that would turn your 125 into 90. And then if you suddenly got stable at 90, well, then chain, were feeling good. You know, but if it made you fall too far, it might be too strong. You know, if sometime later tonight you're drifting up. Maybe point four is not enough. Like we'll see. But okay, I'm telling you right now. I could be wrong. My wife tells me all the time that I'm wrong. So it's important to remember that okay, I could be wrong. But you don't need basil for 14 hours or 12 hours. seems crazy to me. Okay, and I think maybe you're just making up for not having Basil with corrections. So let's find out and see what happens.

Katherine 1:09:24
I'm excited for this journey.

Scott Benner 1:09:25
I cannot tell if you're being sarcastic right now.

Katherine 1:09:29
I'm not a little bit of both probably. Okay.

Scott Benner 1:09:30
Can I ask you one last question that we're gonna stop recording. Okay, why can't people in Connecticut drive?

Katherine 1:09:38
I haven't. I'm a really slow driver. So I don't know.

Scott Benner 1:09:42
I imagine if you live in Connecticut. Nobody passes anybody right on the highway. We

Katherine 1:09:47
don't get right on

Scott Benner 1:09:48
red. Why? It's legal. You can do it.

Katherine 1:09:53
It just feels wrong. Catherine, this

Scott Benner 1:09:55
is the same problem you had with your diabetes stuff in the room. Nobody. It's not you can do whatever you want. drive as fast as you want. You know, I drove 100 miles an hour yesterday for a couple of seconds. It was exhilarating. Tell no one. It's a secret. Okay. All right. We're gonna stop now. You good? Yes. All right. No, no, you're rock you. Thank you. This was wonderful. Okay, so in just a moment, I'm gonna play the rest of the recording for you. It's a conversation that Katherine and I had a number of days after this first part was completed. Okay, so it's Monday. Now, when did we talk last week? Like Thursday? Yeah. Wednesday, Wednesday. Okay. So Wednesday, last week we spoke today is Monday. So I want to count Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday about, say five days ago. And we've been texting a little bit, right. Not too much. So what did we do? We moved your Basal to what originally?

Katherine 1:10:49
Point four, I think is what it originally was.

Scott Benner 1:10:52
And were we finding that to be a little too heavy. A little too strong?

Katherine 1:10:56
Yeah, so we did point three. Okay.

Scott Benner 1:10:59
So you were away from like food or Bolus thing. You were drifting lower and you found yourself catching it with carbs. And it kept happening. Then we went to point three did that fix anything?

Katherine 1:11:13
Yeah, it's it. I interflow from the basil after that.

Scott Benner 1:11:17
Okay, so now Basil is holding me steady. It's not dragging you down. That's good. But then I think, did that did that. Did that? Show us a different problem? Yeah. Okay. What, what what came next for you after we got the basil straight?

Katherine 1:11:38
Well, I think one problem that it showed was the night I needed a little more insulin during the, like, 12. Time and then the food Bolus thing.

Scott Benner 1:11:51
Okay. All right. Yeah. So we saw it's a good, I'm glad you brought it up, I guess. So the first thing we saw was that overnight, because prior you had had a really strong overnight, Basil was like, point five and point eight at some points right. Here. Okay. So what did you switch that to?

Katherine 1:12:14
Points? Three, five. I think point four,

Scott Benner 1:12:18
just a little bit more. And you started? Yeah. When? Midnight? One o'clock?

Katherine 1:12:22
Yeah. Midnight.

Scott Benner 1:12:25
Has it been two nights with that new Adjustment now? Yes. Did that work?

Katherine 1:12:31
It did work pretty well.

Scott Benner 1:12:33
Good. All right. So where did you sit between like 1am and 4am? Last night?

Katherine 1:12:39
Last night, I was actually on like, 7075.

Scott Benner 1:12:42
Catherine, we're getting so close. This is excellent. Alright, so we kind of have your basil straight. And even if it changes in the future, you'll know how to kind of move it around. Right? You'll be okay there. Yeah. I think the most interesting thing, as I'm thinking back on our, our old conversation, so we ended up here because when you were describing something during our initial conversation, you're like, I'm doing great. My one sees like this, and you know, everything's good. And then we started talking about a little bit. And I think you said something like, my basil is at zero for like 12 or 14 hours of the day, right? Yeah, and, and I didn't scare you away because what I was thinking in my head was that is definitely not right. And then I instead I said like, Oh, would you be open to talking about that? I was really proud of myself Catherine actually. And so it's so now we have a more steady basil. 24 hours a day, like my first question is, Do you feel any different?

Katherine 1:13:42
Yeah, I never realized but in the afternoons when I would like, I have an Italian glass and I would always come out of it saying, Oh, I feel like so fever dreamy and sweaty and weird. And after the basil fix, I didn't feel that

Scott Benner 1:13:57
yet. But you didn't notice the high blood sugar then? No,

Katherine 1:14:01
I didn't know I usually didn't have a high in the afternoon.

Scott Benner 1:14:04
Interesting. Okay. Is it did it blow your mind a little bit that we added so much basil in the time where you thought you didn't need any and it wasn't too much? Yeah. Blew my mind a little bit so there was a small part of me half and it was like am I wrong? And this like just crushed this poor girl. But we we've been talking through text so great. If you had any problems you could have texted me not that it means anything. I'm just a guy but we've been doing a good job going back and forth. Now that like we'd said the the next thing that I think it showed because you send me a graph every once in a while actually, can you do one now? Can you send me one now?

Katherine 1:14:42
Yeah, all right.

Scott Benner 1:14:44
Show me like 24 hours. Okay

I'll make noises with my Oh wow. You are so the youth know how to use the technology people in a way

Katherine 1:15:01
that is free. That's my generation.

Scott Benner 1:15:03
Yeah. Oh, wait, is that oh, who saw my generation? Do you know who the who is? No. Fascinating. Okay. Let's look at your graph. Time and target range. 94% is your target. What is your target Senate?

Katherine 1:15:25
Um, I think 70 and 140.

Scott Benner 1:15:28
We're balling. Catherine, I understand balling that. You understand? We are that you get average blood sugar. 108 All right. And you didn't botch dinner last night?

Katherine 1:15:42
No, I didn't. And I was at prom. So I was very proud.

Scott Benner 1:15:45
Wait, this is your prom. I'm looking at. Yeah, that's prom. Catherine, I may have saved your prom. I think you did. I No kidding, right? Oh, I wish people could see this. Mostly. I'm going so it's like three o'clock in the afternoon. Now we're talking so I'm looking back. 24 hours. 110 comes down to 100 Hold steady. 200 for three or four right through the prom. 5678 o'clock. You're right around. 100 Yep. Did you kiss a boy around? 830 Catherine Did you a girl just because already 30

Katherine 1:16:20
I didn't I went with my gay best friend. So there's no kissing

Scott Benner 1:16:23
her gay best friend. Alright, so your is your gay best friend sing very loudly and embarrass you just like so we can really embrace the stereotype and figure out why your blood sugar went up like 20 points. Did you get excited?

Katherine 1:16:35
I mean, I was dancing. Okay. Alright, so it could have done it. So you get a little

Scott Benner 1:16:39
bit of I mean, a rock to call it a rise from 100 is really, it's bold, honestly, because you went from like, 100 to 120 that you leveled right out again. Did you eat in here too?

Katherine 1:16:48
I did. What'd you eat? Um, there was bread salad, chicken. And like green beans. And potatoes was wonderful.

Scott Benner 1:16:58
You got your I'm going to call this a spike at like 10 o'clock, but it only went to like 135. And then did you correct that? No. So it all caught up to you around midnight? Yeah, you fell from 135 to 70? Over like a two hour period from like 11am to 1am. Did you have to catch that? Or did it level at 70 on its own? No it leveled on so yeah, we're winning Catherine. Okay. Sat, got it sat like that till 3am. You got a little bit of a rise where you went back to 100. And then it's 6am. We got a bumped to 120 then it comes down but then it jumps at seven. Is that breakfast?

Katherine 1:17:44
Um, yeah, kind of it was around like 738 two dates. And I thought I did the right insulin amount. But I didn't. I was going in school.

Scott Benner 1:17:54
Catherine, you're we're all sad now because you spiked to 150 at lunch at breakfast and finally came back down to 80 and got stable again. And wait, hold on. This is the most important question. Your prom was on Sunday.

Katherine 1:18:08
I know it wasn't my prom. It was my friend's prom. I don't know what they were thinking that.

Scott Benner 1:18:14
I'm saying. Who doesn't like that? Catherine. I don't mean to get off topic. But why would you make the prom on a Sunday? Oh, I know what it's about. They make the kids come to school the next day are no.

Katherine 1:18:26
Juniors, no, juniors, no senior? Seniors? No, juniors? Yes.

Scott Benner 1:18:31
This is to stop kids from having sex and doing drugs. That's why they're doing it. Probably yeah. No. We don't have to worry about that for you. Right? Because you're good. Just in case you're diabetic. And well, I was gonna say because your case your parents, listen, you should say no. Obviously, I don't do drugs or have sex like you. If you just want that. slip that in somewhere you can if you want. Because I'm assuming your parents gonna listen at some point. By the way, after your parents listen to this. I assume they're gonna call the cops on me. But you're 18 There's nothing they can do about it. Alright, so then we have a spike here. Again, we're calling we're calling 160s spike on me. All right. So Catherine, is it fair to say we have your Basal pretty good. We are very good. I would say we've. But we've learned that you're not as good at bolusing for meals as you want to be. But you're not terrible, either. And I'm going to call these spikes at meals better than the ones over the last couple of days. Do you agree with that? Yeah. All right. So what are you learning about bolusing for meals?

Katherine 1:19:32
Pre-Bolus time and how much? Okay, where we're waiting too long. For Pre-Bolus.

Scott Benner 1:19:38
Yeah, well see before your Pre-Bolus is we're kind of meaningless because you'd never be Basal. Yeah, you could probably Pre-Bolus forever before nothing happened. Am I right about that? Yeah, but now we have a better mix. So, first couple days we had a little trouble because your meals were a little heavy. insulin wise, but you look like I mean, you look like you're fine. To be perfectly honest with you, I think a week from now you're gonna have a incredibly stable line. Do you feel like you understand enough to keep going or do you want to keep Telia for a while?

Katherine 1:20:16
No, I think I understand enough to be able to, to even that line out. No mountains.

Scott Benner 1:20:21
Yeah. Are you proud of yourself?

Katherine 1:20:24
I am very proud of myself.

Scott Benner 1:20:25
Good. Good. You should be this is really astonishing. This graph you just sent me is significantly better than even just the ones from a couple days ago. Because I'm looking back at oh my god yesterday 9:50am. You were still real choppy during the waking hours. You were it was choppy within a good range. Like you were like between 70 and 140. choppy, but you were still going like at 150 Back to at 130 said like you were still up and down, up and down. But this last day is really impressive and overtop of this person's prom, too. I'm really proud of you. This is excellent. Good for you. Thank you. You're welcome. All right. Is there anything else I can fix in your life versus all you got that you need?

Katherine 1:21:13
I think this is it so far.

Scott Benner 1:21:15
Sure. You don't have any passion questions or nothing like that. You want to figure out who the who is before we leave or? I mean, we're done. Katherine, I basically, I, you know, basically, you're good to go. You're, you're doing amazing. You're gonna I assume you'll text me in about a week, and show me a 24 hour graph, where you don't go below 70 or over 120. And you're gonna be like, I got it, Scott. Yep.

Katherine 1:21:42
Yeah, that's the plan.

Scott Benner 1:21:43
Oh, my God, Catherine. I feel like we're I feel like we're connected now.

Katherine 1:21:49
Are like best friend. At the very also here truly.

Scott Benner 1:21:53
I don't want to I don't want to like, like, I'm not reading people. But I interviewed Charlotte Drewery. The other day. Do you know who she is?

Katherine 1:22:02
Yes. She got right before the Olympics, right? Yeah,

Scott Benner 1:22:05
she and I got along so well. She might be my best friend. You might have to be my second best friend or something. I'm okay with that. Yeah, want to hear a funny story? Sure. And then I'm gonna let you go. Because you gotta go. Okay. Okay, I interview Charlotte hour and a half, we have a lovely time. When I start the interview. If I'm being perfectly honest with you, I knew she was like, wanted to be in the Olympics. I didn't know what sport she did. I just kind of figured it out as we were talking. And at the end of the interview, like we're done, right, we stopped the recording. And, and she says, Would you like to meet my partner? And I was like, Yeah, sure. So this, this girl jumps on, and we start talking and everything. And a whole time we're talking I think to myself, back girl looks incredibly familiar. But I don't say anything. And we're just chatting about like their dog sitting or something. And that's what we're talking about. And blah, blah, blah, and we get off later. And like a day later, I think to myself, yo, I think that was Laurie Hernandez, the Olympic gymnast that I was talking to. And you want to know what it was? It was Catherine Oh my god. So so like, then I go to like Google, and I'm like Charlotte Drewery. girlfriend, right? And I'm like, Oh, my like, the whole world knows these two are a couple. I might be the only one who's unaware of it. Right? Like, literally US magazine articles called Laurie Hernandez and Charlotte juries relationship timeline. Like they're like, they're like, famous. And I was just like, so I texted her later. You don't think people mind if you just read their texts? I won't read her side. I'll read mine. I said, Do you think I'm the first person to be introduced the lorry without knowing who she is? Then I sit because later today I said earlier today I said to my wife, I think the trampoline girls partner was on TV. And then my wife's like, What do you mean? I'm like, girl just looks so familiar. I must know her from somewhere. And then last night, my daughter pulls me aside and she's like, Are you an idiot? And I said it's possible. Like it's possible. I am. She was that girl's got like a couple of metals. She's like, look at her. You know who that is? Right? And I was like, oh, yeah, I do. Anyway, anyway, Catherine, are you impressed by this? Like, if Laurie Hernandez would have popped up on the screen was Charlotte, would you have been like, like, Would you like gone crazy and been like, oh my

Katherine 1:24:39
god, I would have been like, starstruck. I really feel like I'm stupid.

Scott Benner 1:24:44
Although, although Charlotte and I had a nice conversation afterwards, because like I told you, we're friends now. And and she said she actually found it refreshing that I didn't want to talk about any of the things that other people want to talk about whether you know me, I'm just sort of like I Talk about the things that I find. Oddly interesting. So, all right. Catherine, do you have any questions about your blood sugar remaining? No, thank

Katherine 1:25:08
you. You're welcome.

Scott Benner 1:25:10
You are so freaking. Are you in my Facebook group? No, I don't have Facebook because you're young. Yeah, you follow me on.

Katherine 1:25:18
I'm not a big social media person. I do follow you on Instagram, but I don't always check Instagram.

Scott Benner 1:25:23
Do I follow you back? I don't think so. I'm gonna follow you back right now while we're talking. Don't tell. Okay, when people don't know your Instagram handle is.

Katherine 1:25:32
That's fine. I won't accept them anyway, if they try to follow me.

Scott Benner 1:25:35
Arden goes, your people try to follow me. I don't even know what that means. what's your what's your handle? How can I find you?

Katherine 1:25:42
Catherine with a k, k th, k t h e r i n e. And

Scott Benner 1:25:47
I'm smart by the way to spell your name. After hearing I couldn't figure out who Laurie Hernandez was when she was three inches in front of my face. Alright, are you

Katherine 1:25:57
might have an underscore. Like after the Gibson

Scott Benner 1:26:02
dance incorporated isn't the thing. Yes, I follow you back. Now if you don't accept my follow. I mean, I'm not gonna be hurt, I'll understand. But, but I'd like to be able to kind of keep up with what you're doing. It'll make me feel like like I have some connection here because I am interested to see how you do. And I am going to I'm going to be about your, your handle because you used your last name and nobody needs to know who you are that much. Yeah, you are terrific. I found you to be incredibly just fun to talk to. I thought it was really impressive. When you were basically in the middle of telling me I'm doing really great with my diabetes. And I said, I don't think you are and you were just like, Wait, what if I didn't find or get weird or odd. I was just very impressed with how you handled the whole exchange. Your parents must be very proud of you. If they're not they're making a mistake.

Thank you. You're very welcome.

First, I want to thank Catherine for coming on the show and having this great conversation and then of course coming back again and finishing it up. And I also want to thank Omni pod makers of the Omni pod dash and the Omni pod five. Head over now to Omni pod.com forward slash juice box. And I also want to thank us met, go to us med.com forward slash juice box or call 888-721-1514 to get your diabetes supplies from us med hope you're enjoying the Juicebox Podcast if you are please share it with someone else who you think might also enjoy it. Or you're listening in a podcast app or other audio app. If you are please hit subscribe and follow. Thank you so much for listening. I'll be back very soon with another episode.

#832 After Dark: Striving and Grateful

Emily has type 1 diabetes and a number of other struggles.

+ Click for EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Scott Benner 0:00
Hello friends, and welcome to episode 132 of the Juicebox Podcast.

Emily is an adult living with type one diabetes, and she has had more than her fair share of problems, but she hasn't let them stop her from striving for more. Today while you're listening to Emily's story, please remember that nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise, always consult a physician before making any changes to your health care plan, or becoming bold with insulin. If you have type one diabetes, or are the caregiver of someone with type one, please take a few minutes to fill out and complete the survey AT T one D exchange.org. Forward slash juice box. Completing this survey helps move type one diabetes research forward and you can do it right from your home. T one D exchange.org forward slash juice box. Just to let you know we're going to be speaking about a number of things in this episode drug use, suicide attempts, depression, anxiety, and things of that nature. Just want you to be aware

this show is sponsored today by the glucagon that my daughter carries G voc hypo pen. Find out more at G voc glucagon.com. Forward slash Juicebox Podcast is also sponsored today by the Dexcom G six continuous glucose monitor. That's right Dexcom makes the G six and the G seven is coming very soon. So head over now and find out more dexcom.com forward slash juicebox get the CGM that my daughter uses get index comm links to G voc hypo pen, Dex calm and all the sponsors are in the shownotes of the audio player you're listening in right now. And they're also at juicebox podcast.com. When you click on my links, you're supporting the show. So I thank you very much.

Emily 2:18
Hi, my name is Emily. I live in New York, and I've been type one diabetic for coming up on 30 years. Since I was three years old.

Scott Benner 2:30
Wow. Okay, well, that's a pretty long time. Does it feel like a long time?

Emily 2:38
Yeah, it does feel like a long time. How so? I just I can't remember a life without it. And it almost seems like it's been different chapters of diabetes. A little.

Scott Benner 2:58
Okay. Well, two ideas and we'll pick it apart a little bit. Does it bother you that you don't remember life without diabetes? Or is it comforting? Or would you not know?

Emily 3:12
I don't know. It? I think? I think not. I mean, I think both situations are difficult in their, their own way. But at least for me personally, I think it's difficult. I always wonder like, you know, what it would be what it would be like and

Scott Benner 3:40
is it sort of like a sense of, like, loss, like, you know, you lost something, but you don't know what it is? Right? Because you have no, you have no context for not having diabetes. I mean, unless you remember being two years old.

Emily 3:53
No, I don't I don't remember. I see pictures. But I don't actually remember anything.

Scott Benner 4:03
So do you do you think that you there's something to miss or do you think you're imagining something? I don't know if that's I think there's

Emily 4:13
something to miss. Yeah. And you know how it's affected my life. It's definitely impacted my life quite a bit. And it's just always something that's been there and it always will be there. So

Scott Benner 4:33
Right. Well, let's figure out a little bit about it. So have your your family ever share with you how they figured out you had type one?

Emily 4:43
Yeah, it's actually pretty strange. I think my father actually was type one diabetic as well. So he He, so I was three years old. He had type one diabetes. And I was told that his uncle, who was very influential in his own diabetes management, had just passed away. And my father had some underlying mental health issues. And he started having hallucinations after that happened that I was a type one diabetic. And he became very obsessive and started testing my urine constantly. And he brought me the doctor's saying, you know, you need to test her. And they all say, you know, you're crazy like she doesn't have type one. She's not diabetic, she's not showing any symptoms. And finally, he wound up bringing me to the Joslin in the Joslin Center in Boston. In March, my mother was actually giving birth to my, my brother, at this point, so my father was not with her when my brother was born. Can you do it he took me to Joslin and they ran a glucose tolerance test on me. And it turned out that I was a type one diabetic. So he was right, even though it's kind of crazy, but I wasn't showing any symptoms at the time. He just

Scott Benner 6:29
do you think he was seeing things that he recognized? Or do you think he was actually in the midst of some sort of break?

Emily 6:39
I think it was more a mental health thing. And I think he was just like, he was always a very anxious person. And I think he knew there was always a chance

Scott Benner 6:55
he just happened to be right this time when he when he does, yeah.

Emily 6:59
And I think some some things happen that really kind of like, broke him a little bit and being that he had underlying mental health issues that, you know, just manifested itself in that way,

Scott Benner 7:13
what were his struggles.

Emily 7:16
Um, over the years, he was diagnosed as bipolar. He was also he also had major addiction problems for most of my life. I think they started to happen actually more. After I was diagnosed with type one, which I don't know if that is related. I think it really broke him on I was sidenote,

Scott Benner 7:47
anyone else in your family have type one?

Emily 7:52
No, just just my father, one. My brother gets tested every once in a while. I have a younger brother. And but he's never showed any signs.

Scott Benner 8:05
Anyone else have any kind of mental health issues? That you're comfortable talking about?

Emily 8:14
I'm just I'm just trying to put you through a list. I don't have I don't have like a ton of family members. And I also don't know all of their mental health statuses but in terms of immediate family, it's just me and my father.

Scott Benner 8:30
Okay. And what's going on with you?

Emily 8:36
I also have bipolar. And it's an extreme anxiety.

Scott Benner 8:41
Okay, so significant anxiety, bipolar. How old were you when they diagnosed the Bipolar?

Emily 8:50
Bipolar was just recently it was last year, I had always been diagnosed with depression and anxiety. And but the medications never worked for me. So I wound up just going off and going, just completely cold turkey and I was not doing extremely well. So I decided to go back and see someone. And they diagnosed me as bipolar. They also diagnosed me with ADHD. I don't know. I'm not quite sure about that. But

Scott Benner 9:26
I don't think you have time to worry about ADHD. You have a lot going on. Can you can you talk about what what what? Oh, no, it's my question. What was going on in your life that got you to a depression and anxiety? Diagnosis first. Like how did it impact you day to day?

Emily 9:53
Um, well, I think it really started happening in high school. or that's also when I first started therapy, and I started on some medication. My parents relationship was really, like, really dysfunctional. So I was having a lot of issues there. Think the diabetes maybe played into it a little. I also I developed an eating disorder at a fairly young age, but it morphed into other things over the years. And eventually it did affect the diabetes, but not not for a very long time.

Scott Benner 10:45
So you in high school started feeling depressed? The anxiety? Yeah, amped up.

Emily 10:53
Yeah, I was just always nervous. Always very. Just high strung? And, but, but also, yeah, very, like, sad and just not able, I had quite a few friends, but I just kind of, I never really felt like I fit in between my family life and being diabetic. And yeah.

Scott Benner 11:23
Is this something that the people around you would have noticed at the time? Or do you think it was fairly contained within you?

Emily 11:34
I think, no, I think people probably notice, okay.

Scott Benner 11:39
So kind of sadness. The, I mean, does it come across as like, just head down, not involved? Or

Emily 11:47
it comes? I get very emotional. Yeah, it would get very emotional.

Scott Benner 11:54
And that could swing in. Like, happy, sad, angry, anywhere in between.

Emily 12:00
Yeah. And I think it became even more prevalent as I got older, which is why I was probably diagnosed as bipolar. And also having that history in my, in my family with my father. And I think my father and I are very similar in some ways.

Scott Benner 12:17
Did Did your father's. Was your father ever diagnosed?

Emily 12:22
With bipolar? Yeah. Yeah, he was, he was seeing mental health professionals on and off for years.

Scott Benner 12:33
I was just, I was kind of trying to figure out why it took them. I would seems like about 15 years for you to get from these initial concerns to a bipolar consideration, like, were they never looking at your dad's history? As you know what I mean?

Emily 12:53
They always they were looking at my father's history, because I would always tell them that, you know, he was bipolar. I think that the the manic aspect of bipolar wasn't really focused on with me, because I was so depressed that I would always I would pretty much just show sign signs of depression, and I never

Scott Benner 13:22
you didn't have bipolar.

Emily 13:24
I didn't get the like, ups in terms of like, yeah, like crazy, you know, crazy highs and feeling great. I got them in terms of like, this frantic type of energy, where I kind of like it couldn't relax and very poor sleep, just just acting kind of crazy. But

Scott Benner 13:54
did you ever try alcohol and drugs to help you?

Emily 14:00
Yeah, you did, too. Yeah. To a certain extent Not, not. To my father's extent, and maybe I shouldn't compare them but. But I do struggle with my own addictions, whether it's in the past?

Scott Benner 14:20
Do they help? Or do they? Like are you are you self medicating in a way that it's actually valuable? Or is it just making things worse, or making things different?

Emily 14:32
Well, it depends on what it is I. But no, I don't think self medicating really works in the long run. Gotcha. But I also don't, you know, I am on medication for certain mental health issues and they do help. They do help quite a bit. But you know, I just I wonder about the effects of those as well, in the long run to you know, I don't know if he should be on anything like, long term.

Scott Benner 15:09
Well, you know, what the what I've always heard is the biggest concern with drugs that help with mental health issues is that you're having a problem. And then you're not thinking very clearly, and you're suffering. And then you get on the medication, and it alleviates those problems. And now you're thinking more clearly, you're not struggling as much. And you have the propensity to think, oh, okay, I'm better now. I don't need the drugs anymore. And of course, the drugs are the only reason you feel that way to begin with. And then you go off of them. Apparently, that's a pretty common issue. For people in your situation, you start feeling clear, and you're like, Oh, I'm better now. It's like, because you think of it as almost like a cut healing? And then you want to take the band aid off? Yeah. Has that happened to you so far? Or are you have you been pretty consistent with it?

Emily 16:06
No, I'm on and off. Medications, various medications for a long time. Gotcha. And some of them, I didn't go off the right way.

Scott Benner 16:18
So and that it's just like, I

Emily 16:19
don't want to take this anymore. So I'm not doing

Scott Benner 16:22
and then there's the impact from that by not titrating away from it. Is that right?

Emily 16:26
Sometimes, yes. It depends on the drug. But yeah.

Scott Benner 16:30
Are you in a relationship married? Or?

Emily 16:34
I'm in a long term relationship, I think, technically technically engaged for like, five years, maybe? I don't know. But we own a house. And you know, it's just not on my, like, it's not one of my top things to do right now. Being married is not. Yeah, you know, we're, we know what we are. And, you know, it doesn't mean anything to me. And, you know, it would be nice. At some point, we probably well, but

Scott Benner 17:10
yeah, you get a ring, at least.

Emily 17:13
I did. Yeah. It was a very, very nice spring, but was actually his, his mother's engagement ring. So it was very meaningful.

Scott Benner 17:25
That's lovely. Okay, so your My, the reason I asked was because I'm wondering how much a partner has to do with care? I mean, is this something that you sort of take care of by yourself? And you don't look for outside help? Or are you? Are you in it together more? Is he involved?

Emily 17:48
For the diabetes or the mental harm? So

Scott Benner 17:50
I'm still going with the mental health, but I was going to translate into the diabetes in a minute.

Emily 17:55
Okay. for mental health. Yeah, he's definitely involved in, in my health. He because he cares about me, and he cares about the diabetes and the mental health and he's also had his his own experience with mental health and mental health professionals. And, you know, he views it in a certain way. So sometimes he'll just check in with me or ask about the medication and look into that if there's any, you know, where side effects or anything so yeah, it's definitely involved.

Scott Benner 18:35
Gotcha. Okay, so how did all of this uh, now I'm trying to imagine all of this commingled with having diabetes in high school. And as a young adult, did you go to college as well? Yeah. Okay. So high school into college. You're having, you know, depression, the anxiety seems pretty extreme. So how do you, I don't understand how you can make it through a day of worrying about your insulin. What was that like? And, you know, Were there moments where you faltered.

Emily 19:14
I honestly like almost don't even remember the diabetes at that time. I just like, I just remember it. I carried around pens, and I gave myself insulin when I needed it. But I was never as concerned about it as I am now. Yeah, I just don't even think it was like a concern of mine at the time, especially because I didn't really care and I was diagnosed so young, and they told me like, they're going to have complications in 20 years. And I was like, Well, that makes me 23. So like, I mean, yeah, I'll be young. Like Cook, who cares what I do now? I might as well have fun.

Scott Benner 20:04
Because they felt like you were, were they telling you we're gonna have significant health issues in your 20s?

Emily 20:10
Yeah, they were like 20 years you'll have complications.

Scott Benner 20:13
Did you end up having those complications?

Emily 20:16
No, I actually don't have any complications. But I did have well, not long term complications, but because of my eating disorder past and that led into diet bulimia, and I got very, very sick and I went into kidney failure. And so so I did have some health issues because of the diabetes but but not long term yet, so I'm grateful for that. Surprise. I'm really surprised.

Scott Benner 20:54
Well, I mean, if somebody told me for sure it was gonna happen, and no, it didn't happen. And like you're saying, you weren't probably really on top of things to begin with. What was your management like in the beginning? I mean, 30 years ago, is definitely like regular and mph, right? When did you switch over to a faster acting insulin?

Emily 21:13
I have no idea. I have no idea. I remember using the syringes at first and then I don't know when I transferred over to pens. And I didn't get a pump for a really long time. And then I went off of it and on it and then eventually started listening to your podcast and heard about Omni pod and obviously want to try that. And it's been great ever since. And same with Dexcom. Cool.

Scott Benner 21:47
Well, see you made me happy. I didn't realize that you're listening to podcasts now download. Okay, so. Wow, it feels like oh, like, does it feel like a lot to you when you're recounting it? Or does it just feel like your life Chivo Cape Capo pan has no visible needle, and is a pre mixed auto injector of glucagon for treatment of very low blood sugar. In adults and kids with diabetes ages two and above. Find out more go to Jeeva glucagon.com. Forward slash juicebox. G voc shouldn't be used in patients with insulinoma or phaeochromocytoma. Visit G voc glucagon.com/risk. How would you like to know what your blood sugar is, without poking a hole in your finger, you can with the Dexcom G six continuous glucose monitoring system, which is available@dexcom.com forward slash juicebox. Not only does Dexcom offer zero finger sticks, but you can get your glucose readings right on your smart device that's your iPhone or your Android don't have a phone. That's okay. You can use Dex comms receiver. On any of these devices, you're able to set up customizable alerts and alarms, setting your optimal range so that you'll get notified when your glucose levels go too high or too low. And you can share this data with up to 10 followers. Imagine what that could look like your child could be at school, and their data could be available to you, your spouse, their aunt, the school nurse, anyone who you choose, my daughter has been wearing a Dexcom for ever. And it helps us in multiple ways. Around meals, we're able to see if our boluses are well timed and well measured. If they aren't, we can tell by how her blood sugar reacts and then go back the next time and make an adjustment. Without the Dexcom CGM. We're sort of flying blind, but not just at meals. Also during activity and sleep. The Dexcom offers us an unprecedented level of comfort and security, being able to see my daughter's blood sugars in real time. And not just the number. But the speed and direction is an absolute game changer if you're using insulin dexcom.com forward slash juice box head over there today to see if you're eligible for a free 10 day trial of the Dexcom G six. The Dexcom is at the center of how we've been able to keep our daughter's a one C between five two and six two. for over seven years, we've been able to minimize variability and keep her blood sugar's in a stable range because of the information that we can see with the Dexcom these are our results and yours may vary but using Dex coms feedback has helped my daughter without any food restrictions, live a more normal and healthy life dexcom.com forward slash Juicebox

Unknown Speaker 24:59
Podcast it?

Emily 25:19
Feels like a lot. It does feel like a lot, but I don't remember certain parts of it. Okay, as well.

Scott Benner 25:28
At what point? Does the eating disorder come in? Do you recall?

Emily 25:35
Um, it's started probably around like early middle school, I'd say I started having some disordered eating behaviors, and then it one two, it developed into more dangerous behaviors later on in my 20s,

Scott Benner 25:58
does it start with? Or is it a consideration around weight? Or is it a consideration around insulin?

Emily 26:06
It's a consideration about my body, especially at that time and, and food, because that was focused a lot on again, what because of the diabetes, but that became more of like, a focus of mine.

Scott Benner 26:26
So were you eating without using insulin? Or re you

Emily 26:30
know, not at the time, I was just restricting my food intake and exercising more,

Scott Benner 26:36
okay, restricting it about your body, not about not having to use the insulin.

Emily 26:43
Right. At the time, I didn't know about that. I wasn't aware.

Scott Benner 26:47
And then you became more aware in college type years.

Emily 26:55
Um, I don't know when I became aware of it, but I know that I started messing around with my insulin. More in my mid 20s. And then it became pretty severe where I was just not really taking anything and not that I wasn't taking anything. But I would just run my my background and salinity pretty much when Bolus for me.

Scott Benner 27:26
Did that impact your, your body the way you like weather? I'm trying to find the right way to say this. So I don't sound like I'm you don't I mean, so I don't sound like hey, this is a great idea. But did you did you because it's not. But did you see the effect like was their cause and effect like you stopped taking your insulin and the thing you hope would happen initially happened before you got into a situation that was more dangerous. Like I'm trying to figure out if your feedback loop was positive around it, or if it's if it happens for another reason?

Emily 28:02
I'm not quite sure I understand.

Scott Benner 28:04
Yeah, I'm sorry. I need to be more clear. Yeah. So you stop taking mealtime insulin. And then what happens after that physically?

Emily 28:14
Um, I started to feel very sick. My blood sugars were constantly high when I barely checked my blood sugar. So it's like, well, let me there's just going to tell me I'm high. Yeah, and it just it became a really severe health issue. I was constantly running to the bathroom. That actually became an enormous issue, the the constant urination and the excessive drinking. And I just always felt sick. And there were times where I had to leave work early. I was taking a lot of medical leave. I was throwing up I had to go to the hospital a few times. So yeah, it just became it became really bad, and no one really knew about it.

Scott Benner 29:08
And while that's happening, it doesn't. Does it occur to you, I should just start taking my insulin again. Or what's the thing that keeps you in that space?

Emily 29:19
Well, I should have said this before, but I I became very suicidal at one point. And so the fact that I already had the eating disorder, and then I knew about the diet bulimia, and I didn't want to take care of my diabetes anyway. It just it was kind of like the perfect storm where it's like, well, I don't care. I might as well have this eating disorder and do whatever I want and just die because I don't care. Suicide became a very painful way to live.

Scott Benner 29:58
I can't imagine actually, um, suicidal, like, in the, in the, in the sense that you just don't care what's happening to you as it's happening or, or suicidal in the, in the sense that you had a plan and you're trying to enact it. Does that make sense?

Emily 30:18
Yeah. No, I was I was actively trying to kill myself. I didn't want to. It was passive. Like I didn't want to have to necessarily do anything.

Scott Benner 30:33
You just wanted it to happen.

Emily 30:36
Yeah, so not taking care of the diabetes, it's like, Well, eventually I'll die. So I'll just, I'll just do that.

Scott Benner 30:44
And, and what's the end of that sentence? Eventually, I'll die. And this will all be over. Or eventually I'll like, what comes after that and your thought? People what is the goal of, uh, sounds crazy, but what is the goal of dying? What are you trying to accomplish?

Emily 31:03
I was just extremely depressed. And also my mother had just passed away.

Scott Benner 31:08
I see. I'm sorry. Okay. Well, I mean, okay, so we're halfway through. We should probably all just wave err on our face for a second and take a deep breath and start over again. Because you're not in that situation. Now. Is that correct?

Emily 31:27
In terms of not taking my insulin No, I'm very good about taking my insulin and watching my Dexcom I'm, you know, yeah. Much better a WHMCS. Sometimes the endo tells me that I'm just, I'm, you know, micromanaging and just don't be so concerned about

Scott Benner 31:48
it. I think your endo should shut up. But I think I think you're doing good. So does the endo know all this about you? Or do they just know you from the diabetes piece?

Emily 32:00
Um, I let my doctors know my history. But they I was not with this doctor. When, when that was happening.

Scott Benner 32:10
I say, Yeah, because I don't think it's a good idea to dissuade you from doing a good job for yourself. That seems that seems like a bad idea. And your mental health stuff is is currently being managed with medications. Like how would you classify your anxiety, depression? At the moment?

Emily 32:34
Like how am I doing with that? Yeah, how's it going? Um, I think that's a lot better. I still think it's um, I don't know, I've just never had the greatest mental health. I think the anxiety is the biggest issue I have really bad anxiety. But I don't think anxiety can really be managed medication very well, unless you're on anti anxiety, medications constantly, which I don't want to be. I don't want to be feeling like, tired and zoned out all the time. So it's just, it's just kind of learning to deal with it. I've been trying to do more exercises for, you know, breathing meditation. Stuff like that. I do have a PRN if I need it. But uh, I, I think I'm going to talk to my psychiatrist actually about switching me to something else because I don't think it's a it's a good medication for me.

Scott Benner 33:47
Gotcha. Have you tried that? Um, that rapid eye movement? Treatment? What does it EMDR? Maybe?

Emily 33:55
Four? I've heard of it. No, I haven't tried

Scott Benner 33:59
a lot of people who discuss things like you're discussing today. Bring it up to me when it comes up on the podcast. So I don't know if that's something worth talking to your psychiatrist about or not? Yeah, definitely. So explain anxiety to me for a minute so you open your eyes in the morning? And are you like completely consumed with things that you're concerned about immediately? I'm going to be late. I hope the shower is not full like is it down to the minute stuff or does it always just you know what I mean? Like when does it start and and what things I guess rev it up? Is it anything?

Emily 34:40
Yeah, it's it starts immediately when I wake up although again, I am trying to implement some things where that are good in dealing with the anxiety I try not to like, bounce out of bed immediately. Try to take My time and take a breath and kind of wake up more slowly and really be like present when I'm, you know, brushing my teeth, washing my face and getting ready for the day. Kind of get myself up. You know, I have like some rituals in the morning that I'm, you know used to doing and those are kind of comforting. But pretty much it starts the second I wake up, I'm constantly like, rapid heartbeat like frenzy kind of static feeling in my chest, checking off what I have to do today. Am I going to be late like? Yeah, that's. And it's stupid things. It's not like, I mean, some things are big things, right? But But yeah, I also get tied up in the little things.

Scott Benner 35:55
I know, some anxious people, and the closest I've come to ever being able to explain it, from my perspective, is that when I'm in the room with them, they feel like they're vibrating. Yeah. And I don't

Emily 36:07
I can't sit still. And

Scott Benner 36:12
it's almost like the look on their face. Like, like, I feel like they're, I don't know how to explain it. Like, I feel like every cell in them is moving in one direction than another direction and thinking about 63 things at the same time. And they can't they can never be where they are. That makes sense. They can never sort of stop and, and, and just stop. And those people that I know that are like that they seem to drink their way out of it. If I'm being honest, that seems to be not that I'm saying that's what to do? Because it obviously comes with its own set of new problems. But yeah, I can't imagine so you have sort of the anxiety exists all the time? Is any of the medication impacting depression? Do you feel depressed? Or has it been lightened? Or alleviated?

Emily 37:05
Um, wanted to say something about the inside. Oh, I just wanted to say that your description was pretty spot on in terms of how it feels. But in terms of the Depression, I think the swings, the mood swings are definitely more controlled. Now that I'm on the medication. I think I had a bout of depression, but I think it was caused by a medication I was taking, actually. So I stopped that. Talk to my doctor about that.

Scott Benner 37:46
And how does the now that you have a bipolar? Oh my god, this simplest, we're just fell right out of my head. Hold on a second. Give me a second only diagnosis. There's the word I'm looking for now that you have Wow, can you imagine I couldn't think of diagnosis. Now that you have a bipolar diagnosis. And I imagine that's being medicated. Is it? Is it consistency through the month? Or are there still ebbs and flows? Like could you and I have randomly set this up on a different day? And I'd be talking to a completely different Emily or is like how does that all work?

Emily 38:28
Um, there's ebbs and flows. I feel like but I feel like they're not as high. And lows. Lois. I suppose they used to be.

Scott Benner 38:41
So taking the spikes out taking the drops out, bringing you closer to the middle. It's it's a lot like diabetes. You're less Yeah. That's right. Yeah. But without the medication. Could you like what would be happening? Would you just would you be ranting if you were manic? Would you be? If I mean, how does it present? And do you even know what's happening?

Emily 39:08
Sometimes I don't sometimes my partner actually will bring it up. He's like, I think you're I think you're mad right now. Or, you know, you're you're just depressed right now or something like that. Sometimes he notices before I do. But I'm sorry, what was the question? How do I feel when?

Scott Benner 39:30
Well, I'm interested in like, how it would present to me on the outside and if you even know what's happening, like I'm trying to, like me, I think most people don't understand this. They don't have perspective on it. And I would guess that in their mind's eye there you'd be ranting or raving or overly, you know, enthusiastic and shot out of a cannon and then suddenly depressed and quiet. Like is that how it goes or like What's the real life impact of it, not just what we

Emily 40:03
kind of, that's kind of how it is like, I'm really like, I'm doing a lot of things, I'm probably doing too many things and pushing myself too hard. I can't sit still and not sleeping, just really wired. And then in terms, and then I just kind of crash. Because it all becomes too much. And then it's almost like a burnout and I just get really down. And then I don't feel like I can pull myself to do anything. And then I get upset at myself for not being able to do anything. Because I mean, I don't like the anxiety. I prefer mania to depression, at least I get things done. And I'm a very type a person. So you know, I'm always afraid I'm not being productive

Scott Benner 41:00
enough. I say, does the anxiety feel different when you're depressed than when you're manic?

Emily 41:15
Probably a little I think it's more energizing when I'm, when I'm up and when I'm down, it's just

it's just kind of there, although maybe, maybe it's thought. I think the anxiety is there. But at the same time, I'm kind of like, very apathetic about things when I'm depressed. Okay, just don't really I start to not really care.

Scott Benner 41:44
The depression actually can hold down the anxiety a little bit. You care so little, you don't care that you're anxious? Yeah, I knew it was a good question. Because of how long it took you to answer. I was like, Oh, I asked a good question. So I was so proud of myself quietly in my own mind. But then I had to say it out loud. Because I mean, if nobody can hear it, what's the point? Emily? It's a podcast, right? So. But yeah, I just It occurred to me that I wondered if it was different. I mean, you might not even be able to, like, like in a in an in an OP by kind of manic situation. Does the does the mania kind of like, like squash the anxiety? Or is the anxiety just ramped up and faster?

Emily 42:26
It's just ramped up and faster. Okay.

Scott Benner 42:29
Wow. There seems to be there seems like there should be a moment here where I say, I'm so sorry, this is happening to you. Like, it just it seems, you know, exhausting. And I appreciate that. You're, you're taking the time to explain this to people. Because I imagine that that things like this, to some degree impact more people than we think. And it just doesn't get spoken about. It's also incredibly helpful to hear through the story that you're just a person. You don't I mean, like you. I don't know if that makes sense to you or not. But I think it's possible that people who have mental health issues get put into one silo in people's heads. And they're not even people anymore. You know what I mean? And that's just unfair, you're, this is no different than, you know, living with a broken leg for the rest of your life or something like that. Like there's, you are this person, you're a human being whose body is being impacted by something. And it doesn't make you any less of like, Emily, because you have a broken leg than if you are anxious or, or whatever else. So I just think it's great to share with people. I am yeah, I thank you. I'm super interested to know how with all of this going on, how did you grab ahold of your diabetes

Emily 43:51
um, after being hospitalized a few times because of not taking my insulin. I was put into a number of treatment centers, number of different hospitals. And I went through a bunch of them before one stuck. I always left AMA. So I never really pulled through with one I never thought they really understood the diabetes part of it. I really think it was it makes a huge difference. And I did after going to kidney failure. I went to a hospital, their behavioral and eating disorder Ward, I think and it was in it was an inpatient and it was a hospital. Saturday. So they also had, in addition to all the things that a normal Eating Disorder Center has like food, fishnets, therapists, they had an endocrinologist on board for me, as well, where the other places did not. And the endocrinologist just really helped me in terms of the diabetes, and yeah, that's what made me I think, really get hold of it. And it was still hard after that I was only there for a couple of weeks, because they only keep you an inpatient. Or maybe it was more than inpatient, because I've been an inpatient before, and that was actually a few months. But in terms of the hospital setting, it was only a few weeks, and then they released me.

Scott Benner 45:52
So you had somebody you had somebody there who understood diabetes, and could support that while you were going through the rest of it.

Emily 45:59
Yeah, that really focused on my insulin and like, showed me how I would do it and how to eat and how many carbs, and now that you have to count carbs, but but some of the things that the eating disorder places wanted to do, I just, I don't know, I just didn't think it went along with my diabetes. And when I had an endocrinologist there, it was more. The plan they came up with, it's more specified to me because I had this whole other issue as well.

Scott Benner 46:36
You know, you have competing problems, right? Because you have an eating disorder, which begs the idea that we don't want to focus too much on food, but then every time you eat, you have to super focus on food. And right, yeah, it seems just they fight with each other. So somebody was able to come up with a plan that sort of allowed both of those issues to work without them causing a problem. So you could count your carbs in a way that at least kept you close with your insulin without making you super focused on the food you're eating. Is that right?

Emily 47:11
Right. But they wanted to work with me about how I felt about the food, but also in terms about how to control my diabetes around that too, and how to feel. Okay with that, but I had to overcome like a lot of things to even want to do that. Because there were points where I didn't. I didn't want to so

Scott Benner 47:32
yeah, no, it sounds like, it sounds like a lot of moving pieces. And finally, they all sort of lined up with each other, I guess, in a way that allows you to, to meaningfully move forward. Is that fair? Yeah, yeah. No. So is it almost random luck that you that you found a spot that all this stuff kind of came together? Do you think?

Emily 47:57
Yeah, for sure. I mean, I don't. I don't know how I'm still here sometimes. But I mean, I obviously think there's always things that can be worked on. But in terms of everything, I think I'm much better where I am now than I was 10 years ago.

Scott Benner 48:16
This is the best version of you that's existed so far.

Emily 48:22
Um, in terms of my health, yeah.

Scott Benner 48:25
Yeah. Do you think there's a ceiling that you're not at yet? Do you? Do you still have room to grow on that?

Emily 48:32
I think everyone has room to grow. I don't think you're ever really done. So yeah.

Scott Benner 48:37
That's exciting. Do you feel excited about something like that? That idea?

Emily 48:45
No, actually, I, I think I have like a really pessimistic proofs. perspective of things because I actually didn't think of like that I kind of thought of it is like well, there's more room to grow. So I'm not I'm not there yet. So there's not I'm not doing as well as I should be.

Scott Benner 49:05
Oh, I see. So where I see it as this is exciting, because you can still build on this. You see that very same situation as way to go Emily, you're nowhere near the top. Is that Is that how it feels? Yeah, I'm sorry that you know, I didn't mean it that way.

Emily 49:22
Oh, I know you didn't. That was just

Scott Benner 49:26
your being listened. Thank you for saying that. Because that's, that's the parts of the conversation that I love the most. Yeah, just I guess that's just the difference between like the direction my brain goes in and the direction your brain goes in? Yeah. So how do you find this podcast?

Emily 49:46
How did I find your podcast? Yeah. I think I heard about its, I heard about it somewhere. And then I know I just looked it up. Have you started? started listening?

Scott Benner 50:05
What What made you want to listen to a podcast about diabetes, then?

Emily 50:10
I think I felt like really alone in this. And I think I think I might have started listening to your podcast around the time my father passed away. So I'm not that my my father and I didn't have a good relationship. But at the time, we had reconnected, and we're at least speaking with each other and trying to work on our relationship. But um, he was really the only person I knew with type one diabetes, and I guess we didn't really talk about it that much, because I really just, you know, I didn't care. I didn't want to talk about it. But, you know, we did have that in common. And in that respect, like, you know, after that there was no one to ask about anything anymore. Like,

Scott Benner 51:04
you lost your only connection to diabetes when your father passed away. Yeah, well, how did he pass by the way? A checker over this? I'm sorry. He was managing his own problems with that.

Emily 51:22
Yeah, he, he had. He had struggled with that for a long time, but I definitely think that yeah, I think he, I mean, he struggled with a lot of anxiety too. So I think he managed his own anxiety. With with that, and also I think he just had like, don't know, just just sad. Like, no, he had a sad life. So I think he was just medicating with that.

Scott Benner 51:58
Do you think? Did you experience anything in your life? That would be traumatic, prior to high school? Or do you think this is just baked into your DNA?

Emily 52:17
I don't think prior to high school, I had a lot of issues with trauma. I had a dysfunctional family. But like, I wouldn't say it was trauma. Yeah, not not in high school. It wasn't until, like, right after college, that I had, that, yeah, I started having some traumatic events in my life.

Scott Benner 52:43
I wonder about the anxiety if you if you grow up in a family that's just frenetic? And, you know, not I mean, there's a level of normal that a child needs, right. And, you know, if your father's you know, an addict, even just that, that's a, that's a lot. If he's anxious on top of that, or depressed on top of that, there's more and more, I wonder if that anxiety isn't your body's reaction to just expecting for the rug to be pulled out constantly. And then when the rug doesn't get pulled out, it can adjust backwards. Because you just maybe you just grew up in that space that you're and you're and you're more, you know, genetically predisposed to it to begin with, that you just can't adjust backwards for some reason. Like your, your body just won't like allow you to believe that. Nothing crazy is about to happen. I don't know if that makes any sense or not. Or if I, I could be 1,000,000% Wrong. But I just did something I wondered as you were talking. But But okay, so you I'm sorry. You found the podcast. And you sounds like you're listening to it for community did you find the management aspect of it? Almost by mistake. Like you weren't here to learn how to Bolus right you were here to find other people who had diabetes.

Emily 54:07
No, not not necessarily. I mean, I I like listening to other people's stories and kind of feeling, you know, like my sense of community that way, but I think also, that I was really kind of struggling with the diabetes and the diabetes also affected how I felt. So I was looking for a way to get better control and then also just just learning about the technology because I had no idea about Omni pod or I had had a CGM at one point but it was so inaccurate I never wanted to try it again. And just yeah, like let's Listening to you and how you manage Arden's diabetes and that that was even possible then I started really honing in on on things. Well,

Scott Benner 55:11
this is the part of the podcast where you told me what it is I'm doing so that I can know what I'm doing. I know that's a weird statement, but I I'm only putting out a thing that seems like the right thing to me. i It's not so well thought out. The you don't I mean, like, I'm not in the back room with a notebook going tomorrow, I'll say this. And that'll make people feel better. You know what I mean? Like, it's not that well thought out. And sometimes I need people to tell me what the podcast is to them. So that I can understand what it is I'm delivering, if that makes any sense. Yeah, I appreciate that. For you. I appreciate you telling me that. So that is something I've been wondering. You brought something up a second ago. I've been wondering about for like the last hour, which is did getting your blood sugar's more stable, impact your mental health positively or? No?

Emily 56:07
I don't know. I mean, I think I mean, I wasn't trying to kill myself anymore. But I think there was a lot I had to get over. And I think it brought some other

aspects of my personality that I didn't notice as much before out. Yeah,

Scott Benner 56:31
because you know, when somebody's blood sugar's high, or bounces around, you can see here, they can get kind of nasty, they can get short tempered, right? Like, yes, I'm nasty. I'm, I'm, I can be really nasty. Trust me. And so like, when when you get doing, your variability gets tighter, and you know, and you're not bouncing high and low as much those things should go away a little bit. I didn't know if the, excuse me, I didn't know Oh, hold on. The wrong time of year, I get so dry. I didn't know if the I didn't know if the mental side of it. The mental illness side of it was so impactful that you couldn't notice the changes from better blood sugars, but it sounds like you, you may have noticed them.

Emily 57:21
Yeah, and some, you know, some more positive and in some ways, I think some were negative, I think it definitely brought out more anxiety because then I was a little too concerned about the control. So when I went out of range, I got extremely upset. And yeah, just especially having the history that I did, like, part of it was like, if I ever go high again, I'm, you know, I'll kill myself because I've, you know, I can't get away with this anymore. Like,

Scott Benner 58:00
the idea of the diet, bulimia is such a, I was gonna say monkey wrench, but it's worse than that. But, you know, you, you need to pay closer attention to your blood sugars and how food works and how insulin works so that you can have this health success. But the the act of focusing on it is really one of the issues of having a eating disorder. And so but it sounds like you did it like so, just contextually five years ago, where do you think your agency was? Do you even know? Around 1515? And what do you think it is now?

Emily 58:38
Um, right now, I think it's probably around six to 6.5, which is a little higher than I've been running. But I think that honestly has to do with some issues around exercise that I just haven't figured out yet.

Scott Benner 58:59
Okay, well, first of all, good for you. That's amazing. I mean, kudos. You know, like, I mean, honestly, look back. Do you ever think You're welcome? Did you ever think you'd be a person with a six and a half? I wouldn't say,

Emily 59:13
oh, no, never. I mean, I cut it, you know, and, like, two thirds off my one save. So that's,

Scott Benner 59:21
you know, most people can't do that. If most people take two thirds off their agency. I think they're dead. There's no sugar in their blood. You're you had a lot of room to grow. And you really did. I mean, that's just wonderful. Did you have a chance to feel proud or accomplished?

Emily 59:41
Yeah, yeah, I do feel proud and accomplished. But I think I'm just more aware of it now. And sometimes I struggle with

Scott Benner 59:53
the being aware.

Emily 59:55
Yeah, just being aware that I'm diabetic and all the time. extra things I have to do. In order to kind of keep it in control, at least I find, you know, I know you seem to be very good at, you know, just keeping our hands blood sugar under control, I feel like I don't know, I find sometimes structure works a little better for, for me, it's hard for me to just go completely off off track and my number also get kind of crazy. Some things are just easier than others, though. Do you

Scott Benner 1:00:40
follow any sort of eating style that? Or do you eat kind of just a hodgepodge of everything? Or is any? Yeah,

Emily 1:00:50
no, at this point, especially with like, the eating disorder background, I really don't follow any type of diet and I just honestly, I just tried to stay away from that stuff completely. You know, I just tried to eat balanced meals, and you know, enjoy my food. And yeah, it's really about balanced meals. And I still sometimes struggle with the food, sometimes for different issues than necessarily eat eating disorder issues, but just just not being hungry or, or whatnot, or the anxiety, the anxiety, it's feeds a lot into my appetite. So I'm, I'm very aware of food and food around blood sugars. And when I when I do have a meal, like I make sure it's balanced that I don't say, you know, I'm not allowed to eat pasta or anything like that. But I do notice that certain things are easier on my blood sugars than others.

Scott Benner 1:02:04
Tell me about anxiety impacting eating. So do you eat more when you're anxious?

Emily 1:02:12
Do I eat less? Surely it depends. Because I'll swing. I've I've had a history of swinging both ways on this, but right now I feel like you No, I feel like the anxiety needs to be

Scott Benner 1:02:28
okay. So I have you danced around this about 45 minutes ago, but I'm going to ask the does weed help anxiety?

Emily 1:02:38
Not anymore.

Scott Benner 1:02:39
anymore. Emily's like there's not enough weed in New York to come. Did it at some point?

Emily 1:02:50
Yeah, at some point. I think it did. But I I think it became too consistent. And at that point, I was like self medicating. So

Scott Benner 1:03:02
okay, and then it. So it because I heard you earlier, stop yourself from telling me what drugs worked for you. Like what, like, recreational drugs worked for you. It was almost like you're like, Vicki, we're trying to be proper. I don't I didn't. I didn't know you well enough at that point to make the assertion, but I felt like you're like, Well, I don't want to say that to people. But it's just, I mean, it's been in my head the whole time wondering if you try it or not. So that's all it's just, it's funny if you had to if you took anxiety, depression, ready, anxiety, depression, type one diabetes, and I told you, you could throw one of them out of your life. Which one would you throw away?

Emily 1:03:50
I feel like also they go along with each other sometimes. But um maybe the diabetes because? Because I feel like if I throw away the diabetes, maybe some of the other issues with lessons.

Scott Benner 1:04:02
Yeah. fewer things to feel anxious about.

Emily 1:04:06
Yeah, gotcha. Things to feel anxious about.

Scott Benner 1:04:08
I've just been wondering the whole time we've been talking like if I magic if I gave you a magic wand by the way, what a crappy magic wand. It only works on one of three things. But But what you would what you'd want to get rid of? I have to tell you, I if you made me bet I would have bet anxiety. So that was interesting. I said diabetes. Yeah, I wish I could

Emily 1:04:30
say it was close to it's really debilitating. Sometimes. It's really crippling. And I don't

Scott Benner 1:04:37
I'm not asking you where you work, but what kind of work do you do?

Emily 1:04:42
I'm not currently working. But when I I moved, but I used to live in New York City. And when I was working there, I worked for a publishing company. I have a background in art. I'm more specifically in graphic design. But actually I think I'm, I applied to grad school because I think I want to go sort of a different direction with my degree. So

Scott Benner 1:05:12
I was wondering two things. So when you said New York, I didn't know if you meant the city or not. But I heard a siren earlier. So I thought maybe still, maybe you're in a barrow? I'm just guessing. Oh, no, no,

Emily 1:05:24
I was I used to live in Brooklyn and then moved to Upstate.

Scott Benner 1:05:31
But does six years or something? Okay. Does the city itself because the city's frenetic place? Oh, yeah, you step out on the sidewalk? And, you know, there are just countless people and machines and noises and and did that balance out your anxiety? Or did it add to it?

Emily 1:05:54
No, I actually think that bounced out my anxiety, or at least it helped me not notice it as much because that's just the way things were it was always go go go in the city. Yeah.

Scott Benner 1:06:04
Because if you're vibrating in New York is vibrating. Maybe you can't tell is what I was thinking. Yeah, so maybe quiet is worse for you? Because yes, it is. Okay. I'm figuring this out. I'm getting, I'm really getting Do you feel like I'm doing okay with this, by the way? Because I don't know anything about any of your problems. I'm just trying to pick through them.

Emily 1:06:26
Oh, yeah. No, I think you're doing great. I hope. I'm not rambling too much.

Scott Benner 1:06:32
You're not rambling at all. I would stop you if you're rambling. I'm not good with rambling. I would, I would definitely stop you don't worry, though, I'm having a really interesting, good time talking to you. Okay, so I was I asked that initial question, because I was wondering how difficult it was to hold a job with all this going on.

Emily 1:06:55
It became very difficult. And that's why when, at one point, I was taking so much medical leave, eventually, I just we came to the conclusion that I was just gonna leave on my own. Because honestly, honestly, if they would have been able to fire me, I think they would have fired me at that point. Because I just, I was taking so much time off, I really couldn't perform well. And, but but because of the diabetes, and because of the mental health issues, they really couldn't fire me for medical reasons. So I agreed to, to

Scott Benner 1:07:45
tell me this, if you put yourself in their position in the employers position, and we take out all the other stuff that considerations and protections that people have, just based on the work you were able to do because of your situation. Would you have fired you? Yeah, okay. That's what I was trying to figure out. Alright. So you were not a valuable part of the organization at that point?

Emily 1:08:04
Yeah, I don't think so. Not, not with the amount of time I was taken off.

Scott Benner 1:08:09
Yeah. Well, you can't do your job. If you're not at work, that's for sure. Well, that was very, it's very kind of you actually, to not sit there and fight with them and, and create another anxiety point for yourself. You know, it's I think it's kind for you in the business. And I think it was kind for you for yourself, not to put yourself in another, you know, embroiled moment of any kind. What's the so as a person who's been through this whole process, and as we said it pretty, I mean, you're, I think you're your best version of yourself, based on what I've heard, I don't want you to feel like you're like, oh, not Yeah, it's gone. But I think you're doing really well. Not to say there's not more but if somebody's listening to this, and they're at a different part of this, you know, where you were in the past? What's this? What's the secret? Like, how do you get out of this? Or as far as I don't,

Emily 1:09:11
I don't think I'm out of it. I think it's just constantly striving to be better. And some days it's harder than others maybe some days I take a step back but you know, realizing that even though I have the same anxiety pushing through it as is better than then laying in bed all day and not leaving my house and being scared of what's going to happen with blood sugar's or what's going to happen just outside in the world. It's it becomes crippling, so I think it's just Yeah, it's just continuing to work on that stuff. But I would say that it's like, it's a long process.

Scott Benner 1:10:10
Yeah. So is it if I characterized your life as being underwater, but figuring out how to come up above the water, and figuring out how to come up above the water for longer amounts of time? That's pretty much the goal, right? Like keeping your head up for as long as you can. Yeah, okay. And, and those periods of time are growing for you, where you're above the water.

Emily 1:10:37
Yeah, I think so cool.

Scott Benner 1:10:42
When you do something, like when you have this concern, that something's gonna go wrong, or it's gonna be bad, and then you do it, and it doesn't go wrong, and it's not bad. You don't? Do you gain anything from that? Like, does it propel you forward a little bit? Or you don't, I mean, like, I don't know how to put this. You know, if I opened my door and walk out of it, and I do it 1000 times, and nothing hurts me. At some point, my brain just says, walking through this door to safe. And I never concern myself with it. Again, if I was concerned at the beginning, but you don't get that right, you don't get the part where it just stops being a concern.

Emily 1:11:24
I don't think it stops being a concern. But I think I learned how to deal with it better. And I also recognize that when I do when I am able to do those things that I feel better about myself. Okay.

Scott Benner 1:11:41
Is there any aspect of life where this doesn't exist for you? Like, like, Are you like, I mean, I don't know, like, do like parachuting or driving your car really fast? Is there any place I could put you where just this all goes away? Anxiety, everything, like, is there? Where's your happy place? Do you have one?

Emily 1:12:06
I don't, I don't think I've figured it out yet. Honestly. I think there's been like, a lot of things in my life that have definitely really influenced me and changed me. So. I don't know. I think I think there's again, like still work to be done. And I have to find that.

Scott Benner 1:12:32
Well, I I wish you a lot of luck. I think it's amazing that you've come this far. I really appreciate that you came on the podcast and talked about it. I want to ask you if there's anything that we didn't talk about that we should have anything I missed?

Emily 1:12:49
Um I don't think so. I think it was, I think the overarching thing was just you know, that you can go through trauma and and be in bad places and you can still make it out. Okay. Yeah.

Scott Benner 1:13:17
Well, I think you definitely got that across. I that's what I got from listening to you. By perfectly honestly. I, I mean, seriously, like, there's I don't know, I just it there's, there's somehow there's a triumphant story here, even though you don't feel like you've reached any kind of real triumph. But I mean, I see it you started in such a place that, that I think where you are now is a is a significant upgrade for you. And like you said, I don't think there's an end to it, you can keep going. So who knows what's next? I think I, to me that this is an uplifting story. I'm sure you're just like, Oh, God, I just bored everybody to tears, or I just made everybody sad or whatever. But I don't I don't see it that way. I see this as is as explaining something that most people don't understand. And there are aspects of your life, even though they're magnified, that I think any person could listen to, and find commonality with their own life. You don't even get your stuffs just at 100. But everybody has this stuff. There's just maybe up at like nine or 10 on the volume. You don't I mean?

Emily 1:14:31
Yeah, maybe but when I try to put my own struggles in perspective, I mean, they're things far worse and I have plenty to be grateful for as well. So certainly try to remember. Remember that so I don't I don't know if I'm at 10 But I don't know. No, you don't

Scott Benner 1:14:50
I mean, like like, I think to some degree, everyone has anxiety about something. Yours is just like, you know if my anxiety is on a train Sister radio yours is on stage with the Rolling Stones in the 70s. And years has just turned way up. But I'm saying that I think anybody who's really listening, could hear about your life and find similarities in their own life. Maybe it's not to the degree or says that, but I still think they're there. And I think that's valuable because people aren't very introspective. Uh, you are obviously very introspective. Almost a little too introspective. Well, I would listen. Yes, probably. But I understand it. And whereas other people don't spend any time thinking about themselves, and they should, so hopefully they will after hearing. Yeah, thank you very much. I really appreciate it. Thank you. Was this hard to do? It was,

Emily 1:15:52
yeah, it was hard. Honestly. I think. I mean, I was really anxious but also I thought I was going to be like, way more emotional. I definitely thought I was gonna cry.

Scott Benner 1:16:02
Oh, do you want to cry? I could make you cry.

Emily 1:16:06
Cry. Cry in public.

Scott Benner 1:16:09
But no, no. Where are you at right now doing this are you at home? Yeah, yeah, I'm

Emily 1:16:18
at home. Okay. Yeah.

Scott Benner 1:16:18
No, I didn't want you to cry. I'm I'm glad you felt comfortable getting it out. I just, it's um, I don't know. It's it can't be an easy thing to sit there and mine your your soul for your stories, you know? But I thought you did a really good job. I appreciate it. Thank

Emily 1:16:35
you. That's cool. Yeah, it's not it's not easy for me to think about things in the past sometimes or recall things that I didn't go through.

Scott Benner 1:16:47
You certainly did. I thought you were terrific.

A huge thank you to one of today's sponsors, G voc glucagon, find out more about Chivo Capo pen at G Vogue glucagon.com Ford slash juicebox you spell that GVOKEGL You see ag o n.com. Forward slash juicebox. I also want to thank Emily for coming on the show and being so open and honest. And of course Dexcom makers of the Dexcom G six and the forthcoming Dexcom G seven head now to dexcom.com forward slash juicebox. Get yourself that CGM.

If you're looking for more after dark episodes, you can find a complete list at juicebox podcast.com. Thank you so much for listening. I'll be back very soon with another episode of The Juicebox Podcast.