#1086 Parenting: Co-Parenting and Unified Fronts

December 15, 2023Scott Benner

Scott and Erika talk about the dynamics of co-parenting - both under the same roof or in two different households - and the importance of presenting a unified front and attempting to avoid disagreements in front of the children.

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Scott Benner 0:00
Hello friends, and welcome to episode 1086 of the Juicebox Podcast.

Welcome back everybody to another episode of my parenting series with Erica Forsythe. You can find Erica at Erica forsythe.com This series began on episode 1049 It was called parenting brainstorming the series. In that episode, Eric and I just got together and worked out what we wanted to do in the coming episodes. Those episodes of course have been 1054 Understanding parenting styles 1059 building positive communication 1060 for self care, and personal growth for parents 1074 creating boundaries and expectations 1079 inconsistent discipline and over involved parenting, and today's episode 1086 It's called co parenting and unified front. While you're listening, please remember that nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise, always consult a physician before making any changes to your health care plan.

This episode of The Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by cozy Earth cozy earth.com use the offer code juicebox at checkout to save 40% off of your entire order. That can be towels, clothing, bed linens, it doesn't matter what you put in your cart at cozy earth.com My offer code will save you 40% Use juicebox at checkout. Erica, welcome back. How are you? Thank

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 2:01
you. It's good to be back and doing well. How are you?

Scott Benner 2:05
You know I've had a day but I'm okay. Okay, I can do my job. So we are making our way very nicely. So we you and I have recorded now the first five episodes Yes, of this series. We're up to episode six, which we're going to call co parenting and unified fronts. Make sense? Yes. All right. All right. I'm not going to go back over everything that we've talked about before. But let's suffice it to say this is a series, you probably should listen to it in order. But you know, if you're just jumping in now and you enjoy this one, go back, there's five more that all tie together with this. So when we left off last, what the heck were we talking about last when we left off? It's been a couple of weeks now.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 2:49
Yes, we were talking about the consequences of inconsistent parenting and consistent discipline. We were talking about over involved parenting, excessive phrase. And then And then what do we do with these kind of unintended negative outcomes or behaviors that we see in our children as a result of of the of our inconsistency? Which we are all inconsistent at times as parents because you're not perfect? Yeah.

Scott Benner 3:20
And, and everything comes so fast and furiously that I don't even know. Like, sometimes there's just not even time to think you just have to react and, and that's, by the way, that's if you're well intended. Imagine if you're not well intended. I don't even know what you do then. And that's, by the way on the tip of my tongue. Because I did an interview earlier today. That if you're looking for it, I'm pretty sure it's going to be called foot wash. I think that's what I'm going to call it.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 3:47
Okay.

Scott Benner 3:48
This person said, you know, mid 20s, talking about their life. And this girl, you know, brought up by addicted parents. She said the best way to describe the parenting she received growing up was she was basically like, abandoned just left to her own devices. When it wasn't drugs and screaming. And I, you know, my god, she described being five years old, in a bathroom with her mother, who was being held by her father or her boyfriend, either the father or the boyfriend holding a knife to her telling the mom look at yourself, you're useless. Tell me you don't love your kids like all this stuff like like that kind of like abuse, right? But when the girl is talking about it, she doesn't talk about it the way you and I hear the story, which just shows how like, how steeped she was in that kind of world and how normal it was to her even though she's screwed up now from it and struggling and knows that and is trying to find her way out of it. Now this is a ham fisted example, but it's in my head. cuz I talked about it today. And I think that anywhere from that most kind of egregious example down to the little things, they stick to your kids as you're growing up, you know, as they're coming up, and, you know, whether you have the issues that this person has, or just, you know, the littlest thing, like, you know, the little silliest thing, you're you're always being impacted and built on by the things that are happening around you. Yes, yeah, constantly, just

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 5:28
just as we are, as adults, you know, have been affected by our different parenting styles that we experienced or trauma. But there is hope, right, that there's always room for for healing, and growth, if the if you're What if you're seeking that, right? So I

Scott Benner 5:46
also have to imagine that people listening to this are not the knife wielding lunatics, and are just like, hey, I'd love some pointers on how things could be easier. Yes, I probably would not have used that example here. Had it not been so fresh in my head. But it just occurred to me that what we're talking about today is what you do, and how what you do imprints itself on your kids and who they end up becoming? Yes, yeah. So a lot of this is co parenting, whether you're married or divorced, or whatever, and how you work together. And so I'd love for you to step through this stuff with me, please.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 6:21
Yes, thank you for saying that. I wanted to, to also note that, that when we speak of co parenting, we were speaking of it through both lenses of co parenting under the same roof or in two different households. Because both both hopefully tools will be applicable to you. So the first the first thing I thought we could walk through is just you know, what are what are the co parenting dynamics, highlighting the importance of presenting united front, and I know we've talked about this point before, in previous episodes in this series, but these it's important, if you can attempt to avoid disagreements in front of your children, I know this is can be really difficult, particularly whether we're talking about diabetes decisions, or you've come home from work or you've you know, ended your workday or your whatever has been going on in your life, and you're exhausted, and you're trying to make a decision with your partner, either on the phone or in person. And the children are totally absorbing and witnessing this disagreement. Now, I have done this, I know this happens to all of us at times. The good news is that you can always repair and correct and circle back to your children about that. But it's really important feature or just principle to try and agree with your partner to beforehand. Like if you feel like you're in that pattern of constantly fighting, having big or small disagreements in front of your children, to try and have a separate conversation to say, hey, can we let's work together? Firstly, and you agree with your partner to not do that? That would be the first step, right? Because then if if you can't be agreement to try to avoid the conflict in front of your children, that's, that would be maybe a deeper issue of Okay, wait, what is the what is the issue there? In terms of your communication? Yeah,

Scott Benner 8:15
so this is this the situation that on your own, by yourself somewhere, you have to have that conversation and say, Look, for a number of different reasons. Even if we don't agree, we have to appear to agree. That doesn't mean that you can disagree and one person gets to win, it means that if you have a disagreement, you have to work it out. And then you don't work it out in front of the kids is the issue, right? Yes. But now, here's my question. We all disagree on things. And isn't that resolution also an important thing to teach and to show people but it's not? You don't want to? I want to make sure I think I understand this correctly. I don't want to teach my kids how to resolve a disagreement between me and a spouse or me and an X or whatever. In another crisis. Like it should be its own conversation. Not is that right? Do you understand what I'm saying? So

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 9:13
if you're so if you're saying if you you have the fight in front of your children, is it that you're wondering, is it important for them to also witness the repair? Or this is how you're going to solve the problem? Or resolve the conflict? Is that what you're asking? Well, I

Scott Benner 9:28
guess what I'm saying is that if I don't know, let's like, make it something simple. The kid wants to eat paste there. That's an easy one. Okay. And the kids start eating the paste, and I stand up and I go, don't eat the paste, and my wife stands up and goes, hmm, let him eat the paste. That's not how we come at that because then the kid sees these two don't agree I can play one against the other like there's all kinds of ways to like make that an unhealthy relationship. But if we then said hey, don't eat the pace, whatever we erred on this side of that, but then later away from that situation sat somebody down and said, hey, you know, I thought it would be interesting for you to know, I was negative on the price dealing, but Mom was pro on it. And now we're gonna sit here and talk it through and see us, like, give each other our opinions and come to a, you know, to a an agreement if we can or even come to it, the idea that we can agree, there are two different things, right? Yes,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 10:26
and I think if your children are open to it, I think that could be a great example of modeling how to resolve the conflict in front of them. I think that's absolutely fair. I think that might be difficult to do on maybe like a higher level, or a more intense conversation. But I think to show them and but you're also you're verbalizing that to them. And obviously, this is all developmentally and age appropriate, you want to make it age appropriate, but to say, hey, you saw you saw us fighting about I just agreeing about the pace. So now we're going to show you how we're going to resolve this, or we're going to try and figure out a way to come to an agreement. So you're, then you're being really intentional with them of what you're doing. It just

Scott Benner 11:12
occurred to me that somebody could hear the you know, you have to present a unified front. And I think what that means is that one of us gets to be right, and one of us gets and the other one has to shut the hell up and bite their tongue. And in a, like, I'm not gonna lie to you like there are a lot of people have relationships where that's the case where you get to be right, and I get to be quiet. And you know, and that's that I think kids read that too. Like, you know, you always hear you can hear children get older and talk about their parents and say, oh, you know, when we were younger, my dad, man, he just did whatever he was told, or, you know, are my mom back down every time my dad opened his mouth or something like that, like there's there's no value in that either. So you have to be, you have to actually be unified, I guess is my point. And I think you're such a nice person. You just said like, be unified, like people would actually do it. But I see it is one person would just be like us isn't worth the fight. You know what I mean?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 12:11
Absolutely. And I think that also can be conditional on the topic on on your and what is your what is the parent or the two partner dynamic, as you just exemplified is some is one person just kind of like a bulldozer and the other person just kind of acquiesces and says, okay, whatever, that's fine. You when you when you when that children pick up on that, too. And maybe there are times when you're just so exhausted, and you don't really care about the thing that you're arguing about, and you're like, Okay, fine. Let them meet the paste. I don't really care. Yeah, maybe there are other moments where it doesn't feel appropriate. And you you do have, you know, buy in, or you're you do really want to stand strong, but the pace.

Scott Benner 12:54
Well, you've let that's my other thing is like I picked such a ridiculous example. But what if I was like, what I mean, what if she was just like, no, like, our kids he paced? I'm like, Well, this is definitely not right. She's wrong, I have to make a stand here. And it's in the moment it's happening. So now I have to now I do have to steal up and, and resist her, her opinion. And people can't get emotional in those situations and probably will. And then, you know, it turns into defending yourself almost immediately, you know, like, I ate paste when I was little, and I'm fine. You know, you're like, Oh, my God, I saw on the news. You shouldn't be pasting. Like, you know, you're going back and forth like that. It's just it no matter what the conversation is about or the topic, it's possible that people just have two differing opinions. Yes, that they didn't talk ahead about and can't blend. It's also possible one of them's just flat out wrong. And it could be dangerous, or, you know, to just go along and agree. And these are the always, you know, like, Oh, I'm gonna go out. I mean, I for my own personal life, I'm going out now. You know, my wife, I hear my wife, do you have money? When they were little right? I perk up right away. Because my wife's about to lay enough money on them to start their own fortune 500 company to go out for a cheeseburger. You don't I mean? And so like, I'm like, Well, what are we doing? What are we doing? Everyone slow down. Because when they were younger, I'm like, Kelly, you can't put so much money on them. They could start a heroin addiction while they're out. Like they need to have enough to get by, but not enough to be like, you know, I actually said that to her one time. When she goes, those kids are not like, using drugs like that. And I said, No, I'm like, what if one of their friends is? What if one of her friends is like, Hey, you have $100 We can buy Coke, and like are like what happens if and so to me, it was really important that they don't leave the house with too much money. I also thought that it gave them an improper idea of the value of money and like all kinds of different things. I want to be clear, we weren't giving them like $1,000 to leave the house. This is like, you know, like, in a scenario where I think 20 would have done it. My wife was like your take for it. And I'm like, not necessary. Like don't load them up with cash. They're little. I thought that was important. My wife thought I was being ridiculous. But she's walking out of the house. And what if I'm right? You know what I mean? So I don't know, I don't know. And

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 15:15
I think a lot of these examples are a lot of these things probably occur. For the first time, like the first time your child is going out independently with their own wallet, the first time your child is going to be driving, right? So sometimes we don't always kind of free amped or think about how are we going to parent in this situation? Maybe you have kind of like the nuts and bolts of like, are we going to do timeouts? Are we going to do you know how, how we're going to discipline? How are we going to praise and so it's normal for a lot of these conversations to occur. And these first time occurrences.

Scott Benner 15:50
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Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 18:10
And what do you do when one person disagrees? Well, you have to either agree to disagree and try it one way one time. And then maybe the next time you they go out with $5. But you also I think when you're in that moment, and it's like it's that time sensitive piece to it, everything feels like heightened, we have to figure this out right now. That's also and you can like feel your kids watching whatever age it's like a good time say, Hey, let's go take this in the other room. If you feel like you can't resolve it, or one person is going to allow the other person to win, so to speak, to step aside, it's hard. It's hard.

Scott Benner 18:49
It's a fascinating conversation. It just really is because even as you watch your children get older, you can see them have opinions about who they agree with, you know what I mean? And often it's just wiring like my daughter and I are kind of similar the way we think my son and my wife thinks more similarly. And I watched my wife like make a real effort to not judge Arden when are just talking BS because their thoughts don't sync up as easily right. And I do the same thing for coal. And it's gotten easier as he's gotten older. But when he was younger, he'd have these reactions and I'd be like, What the hell is that? And but but I've learned to just think like, that's, that's him. And that's his reaction to this and I have to lay back. Oftentimes shutting your mouth is really helpful. Like Like just, you don't you mean just like watching it happen and kind of absorbing it. You get to push your ego off to the side a little bit your opinion off to the side, just let people be themselves. I don't know what that has to do with this. But I just I very much see the value in unified. I just wanted to be clear. I don't think it's a thing that just magically happens in the moment. I think you have to have real like communication, private communication where you We can come to agreements on things and how are we going to approach this stuff? And what happens if we get into that situation where I really vehemently think you're wrong? Or vice versa? And what do we do right then and there? Because we don't want to see that. We don't want a child to look up and think, Oh, these people that I count on, they don't know what they're doing. Yeah, yeah. That's, that's really what you're trying to avoid. Right? Is that uncertainty? Yes.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 20:27
And, and feeling like I can I try Who can I trust what's happening, you know, it gives a real sense of instability, right? For the children. And I think, really, the bottom line is, if you and your partner can agree, to do your best to not have these escalated, consistently bites in front of your children, if you can agree to not do that, that will prevent or at least reduce the frequency of these types of arguments in front of your children. I just do agree like, hey, when we're when we're just agreeing, let's just remember to like pause or go to the other room, or just take a timeout. And that helps a lot.

Scott Benner 21:04
You always want to do appear to be thoughtfully coming to your decisions. That's how it occurs to me. It really, I mean, honestly, they take it out of this realm for a second. You're watching television on Sunday, and the head coach and the offensive coordinator screaming each other, the first thing you should think is, oh, we're not going to the Superbowl. Like, like, right, like our power structures, not right, like the management here is is off kilter. It's fighting with itself. It doesn't work. And that's what you project when you and your spouse are bickering back and forth can't come to a conclusion. Everybody thinks they're right. Nobody thinks they're wrong, like that kid is sitting there going, Oh, we're not going to the Superbowl. Yeah, well, these people are not a winning combination. And it really isn't as much about that moment, or that thing you're talking about, as it is about the centering and how centered that kid gets the feel in your in your house. That to me, that's that's the bigger

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 22:00
Yes, right? Yes. Okay. Great. That's a great summary. Okay, great.

Scott Benner 22:04
Okay. Sorry. Go on. That's okay. So I thought it was valuable.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 22:09
So the next one is a bigger issue and topic. But I just thought it'd be important to note here, that oftentimes, there's an interesting dynamic, and it's hard to be united, when to partners have not really understood or discussed how they perceive their own gender role in the parenting dynamic. So parents might have and two partners might have a conflict. And maybe it's communication, maybe it's all the other things we've noted already in previous series episodes. But also, maybe it's this expectation. Maybe you have the awareness or not that okay, well, I'm, I'm will just give this example. Well, I'm the woman in this relationship. And I know my mom, she never did any of the discipline. And I'm the mom here. I'm the female in this part in this partnership. So I'm never going to do it in the discipline. That's what my dad, my dad did that. So then you have that expectation, that your, that your partner who is your husband, is doing all the discipline, but he might have grown up with a mother who did all that, but no one has ever really discussed that. So you're bringing in these kinds of gender roles, gender norms, gender expectations, of how you grew up, and how you saw your mother and your father and this stereotypical example. But you're no one's talking about that. So that creates a really interesting dynamic that often is not discussed, in partnership. So just wanted to bring that up more

Scott Benner 23:41
of that. I also think it I mean, I was raised that way, like when your dad gets home, like when your father gets home like that, and I think back now, my dad probably got home, he's probably didn't give us about any of this. And he's, like, exhausted and dirty. And then my mom puts on him seven hours ago, he like, I was eight, like, seven hours ago, I don't even remember what I do wrong. And now my dad's got a gin up this like false sense of like, disgust or, like, you know, like, I don't know, it almost felt like sometimes he was looking to me like, Hey, listen, she said, I gotta smack you. I got nothing against you. You know, like, like, you know, and it's, it's just bad because it made it gave me that situation where I thought my dad's like the hammer, you know what I mean? Like, and then you start thinking of him that way and isn't it horrible to pull back now as an adult look and think that might not even have been who he was in that situation? It's just the job that somebody gave him. And you know, why like, Why could my you know why could my mom not just like, I don't know say something set a limit. Like in that moment, it was like waiting. You see what happens later and I realized it's probably an older idea now that like, wait till your dad gets home thing, but I don't think the point of what half Binns to the kids interpretation of you when you start acting like, like there's certain things you do and certain things he does and vice versa. Like instead of sharing that, that burden, it is a burden when you're parenting, like, there's a lot of stuff you need to do. Because you're seeding success for 20 years from now. But it doesn't feel like it pays anything in the moment. But you still like if you're parenting? Well, those are the things you have to do in the moment. And so, I don't know, I just think it's, I think it was, if you're hanging that on one person, if one person's a disciplinarian, or even one person's in charge of all the cooking, or all the washing, or anything like that, even like little things like I do the dishes in my house, almost exclusively, between you and I, I think that emasculates me in front of my kids sometimes. And I know that's a weird thing, but I think it's true. I think they see me as the person who does the, those tasks around the house. And I'm okay with it. But I know a lot of people like I don't feel emasculated by this, what I'm trying to say. Right, right. Right, right. But there are plenty of people who would, and then you put them into a defensive posture, and then what comes next is not good, anyway. Am I?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 26:17
Yeah, we could go further, or go on. But I think the point is, like having that awareness of how you were raised as a child, the the roles that you that you were experienced from your your two parents? And are you placing that on yourself? Are you placing on your partner? And is that is that creating a conflict. So just have that kind of awareness of what kind of like expectations do you have of yourself in your role in your partnership,

Scott Benner 26:48
I was a stay at home dad for like, 20 some years, right. And the truth is, in a sentence, if you're going to be a good parent, you have to like, in my opinion, you got to give your heart over to the job, the job of raising children has to fill you up, you can't feel unfulfilled by parenting, or you'll do a bad job at it. But there are a lot of feminine traits in those ideas. And in my opinion, and I know my kids see me as a more feminine version of a person that I actually am. And my son, excuse me, my son is figuring it out as I get older, and we can have more men's conversations together. But I think that while they were I think I came off as soft to them, if that makes sense. While because by the way, it's not wasn't mean necessarily. Also, I talk with my hands, which I think has a lot to do with it. But that's just me, like looking into how people see you. It's because the other men around me, were busy being classic men. And I wasn't doing stuff like that. Like I'm the kid, I got on the man at the softball field on his knee, given Arden a juice box and talking about our blood sugar while she's playing softball. If that happened to any other family, it wouldn't have been the father doing it. And so I think my kids eventually pick up on that. And even though they know that's not who I am, it is how it comes off to them. And my son recently said something like that he goes, I know Dad's not XYZ. But he really does feel like that when you're talking to him sometimes. I mean, I don't know another way to put it. Like I mean, people can say there's, you know, this is a weird gender like thing that I'm bringing up. But I personally, I mean, I grew up 20 years being a stay at home. Father, I don't think there are gender specific jobs. I believe that more than anybody, I think there are jobs that genders get stuck in, because that's how things have been done for years. But I don't think there's anything that should be specific to men or women. But still, my my son said, you know, like, you seem like a feminist sometimes. Because you do so many things that I'm used to seeing women do and not leave. That's

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 28:53
yeah, that's the society, right? Like how he has been exposed to these societal gender norms. And stereotypes. I mean, this is a great conversation. I know. We're, we're totally reading, but I think it's really I think it's really important, as well. Okay,

Scott Benner 29:09
important. I'm sorry, yeah. Feel free to go to the second point. No, it's good

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 29:13
stuff. Good stuff. So this kind of continues on just these power struggles that you experience with your partner between that may or may not be viewed in by your children, and that you want to continue to promote this collaborative decision making. Part of another conflict that might arise as you're trying to parent is that you may be parenting from a different parenting style, right? One parent might be lean more into authoritative and the other parent might be more permissive. And you might not even realize that until you're experiencing kind of so many conflicts and how you're deciding how to raise your children. Again, I know we talked about the the parenting styles, I think in our first episode, and we and you might come to your partner and think that your way is the best way, because maybe that's how you were raised as a child. And that there's, it also might be aligning with some of your strengths of how you want to parent and what your style is. And so coming to those decisions beforehand, even if you're obviously you're already in it, you're already a parent, it's never too late to go back to have these conversations of like, okay, when our child isn't listening to us, are we going to yell? Are we going to get down to their level and talk to them eye to eye? Are we going to validate their how they're feeling when we're telling them? They aren't listening? Are we going to ground them? Are we going to take away something? Are we going to praise them for when they do listen? Are we just going to kind of ignore it and just hope that they'll grow out of the what however, they're responding, those are all I'm just kind of giving examples from different Yeah, parenting styles. Some of these things, it might be right in the moment. But I think having these conversations that I know are hard to do, when you're working and you have children, and you're doing all the things, it's really hard to carve out time to like, let's talk about how we're parenting. But I think that's really important to kind of get have a little bit of give and take too, if you're realizing that each parent, or excuse me, our partner is parenting from a different style, and maybe accepting that they might be different. Sometimes it doesn't always have to be No, we said it's really important to be united front, but also like, let's be compassionate and gracious towards our partners, too, as we both are learning. Yeah.

Scott Benner 31:35
I mean, there's been plenty of times that, you know, after hearing somebody, you know, hear my wife explain something, I think that is really a better idea. You know, like, I'm gonna, I'm going to try to fold that into how I think it's not as easy as like a light switch. But, you know, you just can't, you can't say otherwise, like, you don't know everything, and you you know, you're married this person, I'm assuming for some reason, and they have these ideas, like you should listen to them and think, wow, she making a lot of sense, or her perspective is one I wouldn't have considered before. You know, so let's see what we can do about uh, you know, being unified, but blending at the same time.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 32:13
Yeah, I wanted to bring up this example that I am asked quite frequently, if when two parents are more comfortable this is with the with diabetes management, when one partner is more comfortable with the child running a little bit higher, versus the other partner feels like, they're a lot more comfortable with the lows, or the child kind of running a little bit lower. And I know people have talked about that even on the podcast, this is really, really hard. Because, again, both parents might feel like they're right, right? Like if your child's going to read, let them run a little bit higher, we avoid those really scary lows and having to treat in the middle of the night or at sports or at school. And then the other parent feels like, Well, no, because if they run high all the time, they're the you know, they're concerned about the long term complications. When I hear two people coming to me with this question. Both are very, you know, firm usually and wanting, they want to be right. And they're ultimately, their goal is to protect the child, they want to keep the child safe.

Scott Benner 33:22
Isn't it funny that both ends of the conversation are safety based? Like normally, when you argue two sides of a coin, there's two different arguments to make the point, you're literally can use safety to make the point on both sides. Yeah.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 33:35
And often what's underneath that is to take some time and say okay, what what are the fears? What are you? What are, are you fearful of your child? Having a seizure and not knowing what to do? are you fearful of your child, ultimately going blind? Those are both really valid fears. Yeah. So then we kind of, if this is hard, if you are unable to do this independently, this is a great opportunity. If you're finding yourself in this dynamic to go and work with a you know, objective observer, a therapist, a moderator to help you kind of figure out, is it because what is driving the fear? Is it not really feeling confident? Of how to manage to keep it in like a range that isn't consistently high? And isn't flirting with feeling too low? Do you have all the data sometimes when we don't have all of the data or knowledge about something that's where anxiety likes to come in and just creep in and plant seeds of fear and doubt. But what you really want to do is get to the place of validating and empathizing with with your partner, whether or not you were, you know, together or not, in this example, to say, Gosh, I really I hear that you're really scared about about our child having a low and I hear that you're really scared about highs and ultimately, both parties will Let's say yes, they, they both are fearful of both things. Yeah,

Scott Benner 35:02
well, you're both doing the same thing to whether, in this example, if you want the blood sugar to be higher, you're scared about right now problems like immediate problems, and you're willing to ignore what might happen long term. And if you're want them to be low than you're willing to ignore that there might be a crazy low out of nowhere, because you're worried about the law. You're just you're choosing to ignore half of the argument to make yourself comfortable in your decision. And man, isn't it crazy? Like it's an exact, there's no gray area in this argument at all. There's one side of the other. It's hard to get people to, to see like, from the middle, I guess, like I, the way I ended up doing it was I just I preached to my wife, I was like, I'm not willing to trade. Now for later. Like, I basically went with like Ben Franklin on it, right? What's that thing about liberty? Did he even say that? I can give me liberty? Or no, no, you can't trade a little bit of you don't know that saying, you know the way, Deb so seriously, I'm gonna find it for you real quick, because, because this is how I think about where to keep clutch occurs. Benjamin Franklin, by the way, one of the first common sense people in the world, he's a ton of writing under a lot of different pseudonyms. And most of the little like, parables that we say to people, he's one of the first people that put it down into writing in America, at least. Hold on a second, he wrote a book called a poor somethings, I'll figure that out later, I'll put at the end. The quote, Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither. That's how I think about blood sugar. There you go. So I don't think I've ever said that out loud. That's how I think about blood sugar. Like she has to say, say that again. Oh, you mate, you're gonna get those. Don't worry, I was already on the other thing, I move quick. Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither. And this, this quote, became very popular and argued about around the 911 attacks. Because they started, you know, well, we're going to take away some people's rights. There was the What's that? Oh, it's still it's still a law. They can detain you if they think you're a terrorist, still, without any proof. Right? What is that? The Patriot Act? Right? Oh, yeah, yeah. So around the argument of the Patriot Act, this phrase started coming up a lot. People saying, it might seem like you're going to be safer. Now, if we give away these freedoms, but trust me long term, you're not going to like what happens. And I would assume that 20 Some years later, that's proven out to be true. And now, you know, listen, I don't want to get into a political art. I don't know what we've saved by ignoring people's rights, or you know what we have, and but that was in my head, around diabetes. Like, I want to be safe right now, but not at the expense of her life. And then I ended up having a conversation with somebody early on in the podcast, whose type one son, he passed away in college, got the flu, and he fell asleep, and he just never woke up again. It's a terrible story. But during that conversation, his mother said to me, I would rather have him had 20, some years of a great life than 45 years of a soso life. And I thought that was a really brave thing to say out loud. And I certainly don't want my daughter to pass away or you know, anything like that. But I also don't want to look up and see that she's like, this 50 year old with this milk toast existence where she never leaves her house because she's scared and like, so anyway, I didn't, I didn't think it was worth giving up a little bit. Now for an end trading later, is kind of how I saw it. But anyway, that sorry, that was way off course. But no, that's

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 38:57
great. Yeah, I like I appreciate the quote, I think it's the challenge is, in this example, we don't we can't predict the future, right? Like there's no certainty around your if you're in X number for this many days or this many years, this for sure is going to happen. And so when we don't have firm data, but we're trying to control something that's hard to control, fear and stress and anxiety creep in. And I think when you find yourself in this dilemma, that is common, it really is of how you're going to manage your child's diabetes, to practice like that, that calm patient empathy piece because both both of you are scared of something or scared and both of you want your child to be safe. Like that's about that. That is the bottom line.

Scott Benner 39:49
The truth is you paint this picture and some people's minds see it one way and some people's minds even the thing I just said about the liberty and the safety there half the people heard it and went, No, I want to be safe today, we'll see what happens later. And half the people said, I'm willing to take the risk for the bigger picture. And it doesn't make either of you right or wrong. Like it really doesn't, you know, and then this so what do you do? Kind of what do you tell people when they come to the office with us?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 40:16
Well, oftentimes, as we, as we learn that diabetes, there might be some already some issues of, you know, communication, but the, there's marital stress, and then you throw in a chronic illness into it, and it just brings everything to the forefront. Getting to the baseline of really trying to connect on the empathy piece usually softens. people to say, you know, I really hear that you want my child to be safe, and that you're scared. And then the other person would say the same thing. And trying to connect once you can connect with empathy, then there's, there's room for movement. Yeah. And then you say, okay, then you find a middle ground. But when you're stuck in like, No, this is the only way and this is the only thing. You know, there's when you can't connect to empathize with the other person, you're stuck in your space. Right? Emotionally. Okay?

Scott Benner 41:08
No, it makes a ton of sense to me. What if I just married an idiot? And what if that happened? What if I'm looking across the table, I'm like, his dummy, here, he goes again. And they're saying something ridiculous that there are people who just like, don't care about high blood sugars at all, because they don't understand diabetes at all. And you see those conflicts, I mean, the amount of people I hear who, especially in the divorce situation, send their kids somewhere else who looks they look completely, like a different type one on the weekend than they do during the week, and the kid feel hireable and you know, all this other stuffs going on, and you don't have all of the tools at your disposal that you would if you were married or together. And you know what I mean by that like, right, like the you know, once you're split up, the other person has the opportunity to just go, I don't care what you think. And then that's it. When you're together. At least people are like, well, I want to be harmonious. Like, you know, for the most part, you think that's people's goal, you lose a lot. I hate to say it like this, you lose a lot of your leverage when you're not in the same house. Right? Isn't it weird to talk about feelings, but reality at the same time? Yes, it really is, isn't it? Because there is a way, if we all just like flower child, and you know, had the 60s coming out of our ears, we'd all just be like, it's cool, we'll do it. It'll be fine. Like, listen to each other. And then you get into the real, like, what happens to people, when you put them in these situations, like what happens to a mom, when they realize the Father's gonna leave the kids blood sugar, like 350 all weekend turned, that person turns into like a mercenary. You know, they're like, I'm not going to let that happen. Like, bah, bah, bah. And then you hear some people go, I can't say anything. Because if I say anything, he calls the lawyer because the lawyer that I might lose, it's such a terrible scenario to be in for certain, but But you're saying your best chance at it, is to empathize with the other person, get them to emphasize empathize with you. And then it kind of releases a little bit of that stress. And maybe then there's a middle ground, you can find each other. And

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 43:07
yes, I mean that that's best case, scenario, yes to like, soften and connect on the fear, the unknown. And your goal. Like your goal is to keep your child safe. And oftentimes, it's really, it's hard. If it's hard, if we're discovering that it's hard for the partners to move. Sometimes what I learned is that when a parent is maybe more involved and does all the appointments, and knows maybe a little bit more, this isn't always the case, but just is more involved in the child's management. And so often what can be also be beneficial is to bring the other partner into the fold, like going to the appointments, having scheduling appointments with, you know, a CDC s so someone who can who is not it maybe if therapy isn't working, then to go to a professional who can speak truth into what they are fearing is worst case scenario, and preventing them from wanting to budge. So to have like an expert can be also helpful to speak on the matter or listen to a podcast.

Scott Benner 44:16
You're the professional. I'm just going to tell you from a from a male's perspective, just ask your question while you're changing at night. And I'm pretty much going to agree that anything so like just you know, as you're like taking off your shirt and go into your pajamas. That's when you mentioned like oh, yeah, that makes total sense to me. There you go.

Speaker 1 44:31
Yeah. But keeping again at 120 Think

Scott Benner 44:36
whatever you think is fine with me. I don't want to listen, I've said it before. I'll say it again. If I was a lady, I wouldn't have these kinds of problems. But that's because I know how I know how I think I'd be pretty good. I'd be pretty good at keeping myself under control. It's just a fact of life. Like I'm gonna go back to what I said a second ago like these conversations. They always perplexed me a little bit like I was mentioned to somebody the other day I talked to Eric and I, we have these great conversations where we talk through how people think. And undoubtedly, at the end of that conversation, I think we should all just give up, this is never going to work out. It's that mix, it finally hit me today. It's the mix of feelings, and what's right, and what would work if everybody was on the same page. And the reality of how people can in a split second get defensive, or their ego could take over and they start, they lose sight of the goal. And just, you know, I don't know, they crawl into feels like they backed themselves into a corner. And then everyone's attacking at that point. Yes. I mean, you got to do something. So I like your idea better than, than anything else. I've heard. What happens, okay, so what happens, I understand that I'm one side of the coin. And I know, this is what we got to be going for this empathy and finding a middle, the other person won't flex on it. So you're saying, maybe bring them into the reality of it a little more, so maybe they'll see it a little differently. But if you say to somebody, I'd like to speak to a therapist. I mean, the person who's already feeling backed into a corner is not likely going to feel good about that idea. I would imagine,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 46:11
when option or example could be, gosh, we are we're obviously having a really hard time finding a middle ground and how, where are we, where we both feel comfortable trying to keep our child's blood sugar in this in this particular range? How like, I can't, I'm just modeling, right? So I can't keep doing this. We're fighting all the time. Our child's blood sugar is going up and down, up and down. Like inviting your partner into like, how can we figure this out? Because clearly, I don't think you want to do this either day in day out arguing about the numbers, how we're going to manage? And so then presenting options like what do you think it'd be helpful for us to go see a therapist to work on like our communication and understanding? Should we go meet with a diabetes educator to learn more about like, the some of the truths? Should we meet with our Endo? She can we listen to these these podcasts series? Like what do you think is helpful? Because I know we're both miserable and how we're figuring this

Scott Benner 47:11
out. And guys, if you're hearing those words, I just do it, or that's how you end up living above a pizza place. So seriously, I'm not kidding, because women, you're nice, women are more emotionally intelligent, the men generally speaking, so like, you know, so you're gonna, at some point, someone in the relationship is going to value the child safety more than the relationship. And if you're on the wrong side of that conversation, that is when you end up living overtop of a pizza place. So which is just what used to happen to the guys in my town, which is why it's my example, when they get divorced. But, but But seriously, like, these conflicts can't go on forever. Like they won't, somebody is going to step up and put an end to it one way or the other. And, I mean, the way it happens in in unresolvable situations is a dissolution of your family. So if that's not your goal, maybe swallow whatever pride is keeping you from being involved in these conversations, and just just go for it. Because I mean, that, to me seems like what ends up happening, if somebody doesn't, I don't even want to say bend. But if they can't find themselves interested in hearing other perspectives. Yeah,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 48:21
I will say I, I think it's important to also praise though, that this in this example, both partners are feels like they're equally invested. Right? Like they're, they're both wanting the best. It's not just one parent, managing the whole thing and carrying the burden. So there is there is a positive aspect to the fact that there is this conflict, right, because usually means that both partners are equally trying to help do all the things to manage the diabetes, I

Scott Benner 48:53
think it's important before we move to the last piece, I think it's important to say to these conversations, these conflicts or instances, whatever happens, a lot of the work that helps you gets done privately later, in your own mind, like reflecting going over what happened and saying to yourself, Is this really the outcome I wanted here? If it's not, what could I have done that would have helped this, you know, get to a better place? I think that's like we talked about all the time it gets so you're so busy, and went to hell to even talk to each other. And that's where although you're married now, so you could use this time used to have sex and talk then. But, but but like, when do you even do those things? And I think the answer is when you're alone, like you've got to go over them again, and you can decide to piss yourself off about it, or you can decide to try to come to a resolution and I anyway, I think a lot of the work gets done quietly in your own head sometimes. So anyway, it's my opinion. Yes.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 49:50
No, that's it. That's a great point. Yep. Reflecting kind of thinking about the, your partner's opinion. Thinking about like, what is it what Why am I scared? Why am I fearful? Why am I refusing to budge? Or listen or consider alternative?

Scott Benner 50:07
Tell people one more time when you find yourself rubbing up against something more often than not? You're afraid for reasons you don't know. Right? Yes,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 50:15
yeah. Yes. Fear often drives, anxiety, irritability, even even, you know, sadness or depression. But if we're, sometimes we were not even aware that we are fearful. But we're just operating in this kind of panic, high stress. Go, go, go, go go. But when we kind of can have pause and say, Okay, what am I? Why, what am I scared about? Why am I scared? How can I reduce or kind of assuage or calm some of this fear? And maybe it's grieving? Maybe it's processing? Maybe it's learning, there might be different avenues to address some of that fear. Okay.

Scott Benner 50:59
So your last bit here effective strategies for co parenting communication and conflict resolution?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 51:04
Yes. So as we say, it's you just joked, I mean, like, likely you need to, it's important if you are in in a committed relationship, just like it's important to schedule time for physical intimacy, emotional intimacy, date nights, it's also important to schedule time and not on a frequent basis unless you need to, like how to solve problems, how to help eight, how are we gonna solve problems? And when are we gonna talk about that? So scheduling it in and also checking in with your with your partner, and even if it's if you're separated or divorced to say, hey, when's a good time for you to connect? Let's let's schedule it in the calendar, holding also trying to be aware of is the person going to be tired? Like even when you're asking, you know, having these considerations, how am I feeling and checking in with yourself as well as having that awareness of your partner right? To book it book the time? I'm

Scott Benner 52:01
just gonna throw in my two cents here. Don't ever say to a person now's not a good time to talk to this, you're obviously tired. Think that and then schedule a time later? Don't Don't tell them. You just Yeah, yeah, that's called poking the bear. So

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 52:20
already, you're saying like, we're both really tired? Can we plan to talk about this, you know, tomorrow at a certain time, this one, this next point, I think is this tool or strategy is really hard. I just want to highlight this, but it's also really important, whether or not you are in the same household or not co parenting, to do your best to never speak ill will or negatively or condescendingly about the other parent to your children. And it's really easy to do when you're so angry because they didn't do what you like you couldn't agree on something, or you have your own personal issues. It feels really easy to say, Gosh, Joey, isn't isn't daddy just a real jerk? Or like, you know, when you're hurting? Yeah, you are hurting as a human being. And it can feel good to get that like connection or validation from your child. You it could be just like you're doing it just venting. Sometimes you're not doing it intentionally. But it is like this triangulation that can occur of like, you really want to make sure that you and whatever name I just use Joey are staying connected. Right. So you want to ostracize the other parent. Again, this happens I know and parenting households together different households. And it's really, it's really hard to do. But so important to not do that. And I can explain why. But sorry. Go ahead. No,

Scott Benner 53:56
yeah, tell me why. Also, I just want you to know that if this wasn't part of a series, I would definitely name this episode Joey eats paste. But that's good. I know, people would look and go, Oh, what is this about?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 54:10
But it could be like the subtitle Yeah, please. But

Scott Benner 54:13
yeah, why would we not want to do that? Why do I not want to like turn to my kid and go, Hey, you see, she's crazy, right? Like, like, like, Why do I not do that?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 54:23
So kind of similar to our earlier point of the A, it's undermines the authority. So when you go when Joey goes to the other parents house or staying in the same household, and that parent is going to try and correct admonished discipline, praise whatever it is. After a while, if Joey keeps hearing how terrible the other parent is, he's just he's going to just totally dismiss it. Right? So it undermines the the other parents authority and this, like trust like every child wants to believe I mean, unless unless there's serious abuse and trauma and all of that, but if every parent, every child wants to believe that both of their parents are loving and trustworthy and safe, they just do. And they always want to hope for the best. And, and even when, you know, parents, when two people divorce, a child still will often even into their older, you know, adult years long for mom and dad, parents to to get back together. It's just, it's very natural longing. And so that when one parent undermines or criticizes another parent to the child, that trust is violated. And the child's gonna get they're confused, like, Well, who am I supposed to believe who who is safe, who loves me? Who can I really trust in this world, and you're wanting to develop still secure attachments. So it's really, it can be really, really detrimental. But again, it's really hard to do, particularly when you're hurting as a parent,

Scott Benner 55:59
right? But the goal in all of this, as we're talking, I realize, again, is it's just giving the child a feeling that's real, that is centered and safe and loved. Like that's what they need to feel while they're growing up. And the rest of it kind of works itself out. But the minute you start doing these things, you know, bickering in front of them not having unified front, making it seem like I don't trust what the other person is saying, or actually coming right out and saying, Hey, I you know, privately, too, it's even worse, it's sinister almost to pull a kid aside and say, hey, you know, we don't listen to mom about this, or we don't dad's a jerk or whatever. Like that kind of stuff. It's so disorienting for children. Yes. And then it to the story, I told you the beginning, you're building on to this person, and taking them in slightly different directions all the time. And the further you get away from that center, the more trouble you're going to have, as you grow up, and you're not going to see it happening. While it's happening. It's going to be one of those things, where you gonna be 65 years old, and sitting back and looking at your 40 year old kid and thinking, Oh, I've got up and it's gonna be too late, then, you know, so I think put the kid first, put the security of the relationship first, make sure everybody knows they're loved. And I think you hope for the best after that. But yeah, if you mess up the if you mess up the I know, I've talked about this before, but like I see life as this like tree that starts at a seed. And they it splits into branches. At some point, you make a decision to go right or left. And you keep making those decisions along the way until you've made millions of unperceived decisions, and you end up where you end up. Because of that, there's no plan to get to the right place, whatever that is, all you can do is make the best decisions in the moment. And trust that it's going to work out a little bit. But if you think you take that idea and translate it into the maturation of a child, every little time you go left, when you should have went right, or something like that, or you take an opportunity to hit on a spouse or you know, do one of these things that we're talking about that are just kind of like I mean, really what you're making here is a list of the do's, like like, you know what I mean? Like, here's the thing is really to avoid, every time you do those things, you just end up further and further away from where, where you started. And I think that's how so frequently, you'll see somebody in the world as an adult and think we all started off as kids with the same chance. How did this one get here? And I think this is how it happens in these tiny little moments that you don't really value at that time as important that when you build them all together, turn into a roadmap, you know, I don't know. I could be yes.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 58:46
No, I think I think it's all true. I think I also want to highlight, you know, that these moments might happen here and there. Right? Like, you might be so irritated with your partner and you're doing something else. You're like, Oh, I'm so frustrated. Why did you do that and your kid hears or whether it's direct or indirectly, your child hears you say something. It's still you can still go back and correct and repair right to say, Joey, you know what, I was so frustrated at dad when this happened. And I was venting and I said these things and that really wasn't for your ears. And I should have just I should have shared that with, you know, kept it to myself shared it with a friend, family member, whatever it is.

Scott Benner 59:33
Yeah, I'm not saying If you yell total at your spouse, that Joey's a serial killer now like, you know, like, I don't want you to like, I don't want you to think that you shouldn't sit around and scrutinize this is what Eric is. She's trying to stop me from saying to people scrutinize every like tiny little moments because she knows it'll make people crazy. I don't mean that. I mean, in these big moments, there's better answers than and you're not always making them like people No one questions themselves, because it would be maddening. If you constantly requesting yourself it would make you that would be mental illness.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:00:08
Right? Like if you're up that's yeah, sometimes that's called anxiety. Yes, yes.

Scott Benner 1:00:11
Right. And so there's a way to just prep yourself ahead of time, so that you make better, you know, decisions in the moment and then let it fly and see what happens. Like they're not going to turn out great. Don't worry about but they could be some version of good, that will be really lovely. So, you know, that's why I think anyway, screw it. Do whatever you want with your kids. I don't care. This is what happened to me at the end of every hour.

Unknown Speaker 1:00:36
Y'all are doing a great job. We're doing great job.

Scott Benner 1:00:40
Our best, everyone's doing a great job. Listen, I said to this person that I referenced in the beginning of the episode, I said, I wish I could stay alive for 50 more years, I'd love to interview you, again. 25 years from now, she was like 26. I said, because I've interviewed so many people in their 60s, who look back at their lives. And they tell these sometimes horrifying stories. And yet, they're okay. Until you can see your life as like this one big picture, it's hard to know that the thing that happened between 1978 1981 wasn't that big of a deal. Or like you don't even worry, it was just a growth moment, or you learn from it, or it was hard and nothing good came out of it. But you're still alive and you're happy 25 years later. And I sometimes talk to people and I'm like, Oh, you're on the way to this. Like, I don't have the luxury of time to step back far enough to be sure that I'm right. But you're a person who's on a way to that being the reality. I think most people are on the way to that being their reality. You know, so I mean, I'm sure any of appealing Yeah, in a situation that have bad health, or misfortune doesn't follow you that at the end of your life, if somebody could be the biographer of you and retell your life back to you, you'd go, I'm real good with this, you know, and I just, I had that opportunity because I talk to people who are older sometimes and I get to, like, you know, in some short way, and an hour and a half break their entire life down. And you can see they this has been a good life, it was full of great things, it was full of bad things, it was full of most days that were just kind of okay. But when they reflect on it, they go hmm, I'm proud of this. So anyway, I think that'll happen for everybody. It's just not much of a podcast, if we sit down and talk about just go for it, it'll probably be fine. Cuz for some of you, it ain't gonna go great if you do that. But you know, like, and who knows who's who. So why not put the work in? And, you know, that's my opinion. Just put the work in and hope for the best. Pretty much what I do. So,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:02:39
I don't know. Yes,

Scott Benner 1:02:41
I know, these recordings are gonna exist somewhere. Erica one day when my kids are just like, you know, hijack a jetliner and like, take 200 people to Brazil or something and like, they're on the news and that and people are gonna be like, Oh, that guy's got a seven part series about parenting. You should go listen to like, god dammit. All right. Let's hope not. Because kids are starting a cartel up somewhere. Somebody whips out this recording. And they're like, Oh, she had some good thoughts. Oh, good. Yeah, hell, whatever. Good luck, everybody. I'll see you later.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:03:17
Bye.

Scott Benner 1:03:24
Learn more about Erika and see if she is able to help you in the state you live in. Erica has a few states that she can help. What's the word I'm looking for virtually. Or of course, if you're a California resident, she can see you privately, or virtually. Erica forsyth.com. She's delightful. She has type one diabetes for over 30 some years. And she specializes in talking to families who are living with type one, Erica forsyth.com. I'd like to thank cozy Earth. This is their first full year of being sponsors on the Juicebox Podcast and I want to thank them they're coming back in 2024 because of the way you guys are using the offer code juicebox at checkout at cozy earth.com. So thanks to them. And of course thank you to you. If you're looking for community around your diabetes, check out the private Facebook group Juicebox Podcast type one diabetes. If you're listening in an apple podcast app, can you please take a moment to check your download settings. Apple has made some adjustments to the app and it might be stopping you from seeing episodes. That's in the settings of your app. So oh gosh, how do you do this into the apple podcast app. Go to the show itself so like library then touch the show then up at the top right corner there's these three dots you touch those you go to Settings, then you go down to automatic download are automatically downloaded. Check that by going into that menu. Sorry, let us is very clear. And then scroll to the bottom and choose download all episodes. That's if you do that, and you're following the show, it would really be helpful. So if you're listening in an Apple app, please follow. If you're following, please check your automatic downloads. And if you're listening somewhere else, Spotify, anywhere, overcast turn on those downloads. Make sure you're following or subscribing. Following and subscribing mean the same thing, just different apps use one word and some apps use another word. So follow subscribe, download, you'll really be helping out the podcast. Thank you so much for listening. I'll be back very soon with another episode of The Juicebox Podcast.